>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain in Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my cohot Paul Gillon, who's been putting in some pretty good work talking to incredible people. And we have, I don't wanna call, heard the face of CNCF, but you kind of introduced me to, you don't know this, but you know, charmer executive director of CNCF. You introduced me to Kuan at Cuan San Diego's my one of my first CU coupons. And I was trying to get my bearings about me and you're on stage and I'm like, okay. Uh, she looks like a reasonable person. This might be a reasonable place to learn about cloud native. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having me. And that's so nice to hear >><laugh> it is an amazing show, roughly 7,500 people. >>Yes, that's right. Sold out >>Sold. That's a big show. And with that comes, you know, uh, so someone told me, uh, CNCF is an outstanding organization, which it, which it is you're the executive director. And I told them, you know what, that's like being the president of the United States without having air force one. <laugh> like you get home. I dunno >>About that. You >>Get, no, you get all of the, I mean, 7,500 people from across, literally across the world. That's true at Europe. We're in Europe, we're in, we're coming out of times that have been, you know, it can't be overstated. It, this, this is unlike any other times. >>Yes, absolutely >>Difficult decisions. There was a whole co uh, uh, I don't know the term, uh, uh, cuffa uh, or blow up about mask versus no mask. How do you manage just, just the diversity of the community. >>That is such a great question, because I, as I mentioned in my keynote a little bit, right? At this point, we're a community of what, 7.1 million developers. That's a really big group. And so when we think about how should we manage the diversity, the way I see it, it's essential to treat each other with kindness, professionalism, and respect. Now that's easy to say, right. Because it sounds great. Right. Old paper is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Great >>Concept. 0.1 million people later. >><laugh> exactly. And so, uh, this is why like, uh, I phoned a friend on stage and, um, van Jones came and spoke with us. Who's the renowned CNN contributor, uh, commentator, sorry. And his advice was very much that in such a diverse community, there's always gonna be lots of perspectives, lots opinions. And we need to a always bring the version of ourselves, which we think will empower this ecosystem, BEC what are, what we are doing. If everybody did that, is that gonna be a good thing or a bad thing? And the other is we need to give each other space and grace, um, space to do what we need to do. Grace. If there are mistakes, if there are challenges. And so those are, those are some good principles for us to live by. And I think that in terms of how CNCF tries to enable the diversity, it's by really trying to hear from everybody possible, the vocal loud voices, as well as the folks who you need to reach out a little bit, pull in a little bit. So it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing challenge that we do our best with. >>How do you balance? And I've been to a lot of trade shows and conferences over the years, their trade organizers are very coin operated. You know, they're there, they're there for the money. Yeah. <laugh> and you have traditional trade shows and you have a situation here where an open source community that is motivated by very different, um, principles, but you need to make money. You need the show to be profitable. Uh, you need to sell some sponsorships, but you also need to keep it available and open to the people who, who don't have the big budgets. How are you balancing that? >>So I would actually like to, uh, share something that may not be obvious, which is that we don't actually do the shows to make money. We, um, as you said, like, uh, a lot of trade shows are coin up and the goal there is like, um, well actually they're different kinds of, I think if it's an independent event organization, it can be like, Hey, let's make as much revenue as possible. If it's part of a large, um, large company, like, like cloud provider, et cetera, the events tend to be lost leaders because they're like lead gen, I think, >>But they're, they're lost leaders, but they're profit makers ultimately >>Long term. Yeah. Yeah. It's like top of the funnel. I, I guess for us, we are only doing the events to enable the community and bring people from different companies together. So our goal is to try and break even <laugh> >>Well, that's, that's laudable. Um, the, how big does it get though? I mean, you're at the point with 7,500 attendees here where you're on the cusp of being a really big event, uh, would you limit it size eventually? Or are you just gonna let this thing run? Its course. >>So our inherent belief is that we want to be accessible and open to more and more and more people because the mission is to make cloud native ubiquitous. Right. Uh, and so that means we are excited about growth. We are excited about opening the doors for as everyone, but I think actually the one, one good thing that came out of this pandemic is that we've become a lot more comfortable with hybrid. So we have a virtual component and an in-person component. So combining that, I think makes it well, it's very challenging cause like running to events, but it's also like, it can scale a little bit better. And then if the numbers increase from like, if they double, for example, we're still, I think we're still not in the realm of south by Southwest, which, which feels like, oh, that's the step function difference. So linear increases in number of attendees, I think is a good thing. If, and when we get to the point where it's, um, you know, exponential growth at that point, we have to think about, um, a completely different event really. Right, >>Right. So 7 billion people in the world approaching 8 billion, 7.1 members in the community. Technology is obviously an enabler where I it's enabled me to, to be here and Licia Spain experiencing this beautiful city. There's so much work to be done. What mm-hmm <affirmative> what is the role of CNCF in providing access to education and technology for the rest of the world? >>Absolutely. So, you know, one of the key, uh, areas we focus on is learning and development in supporting the ecosystem in learners beginners to start their cloud native journey or expand their cloud native journey with training certifications, and actually shared this in the keynote every year. Uh, the increase in number of people taking certifications grows by 216% year over year growth. It's a lot, right? And every week about a thousand people are taking a certification exam. So, and we set that up primarily to bring people in and that's one of our more successful initiatives, but we do so many, we do mentorship programs, internship programs. We, uh, a lot of diversity scholarships, these events, it all kind of comes together to support the ecosystem, to grow >>The turning away from the events, uh, toward just toward the CNCF Brit large, you have a growing number of projects. The, the number of projects within CNCF is becoming kind of overwhelming. Is there an upper threshold at which you would, do you tighten the, the limits on, on what projects you will incubate or how big does that tent become? >>Right. I think, you know, when we had 50 projects, we were feeling overwhelmed then too, but we seem to have cop just fine. And there's a reason for that. The reason is that cloud native has been growing so fast with the world. It's a representative of what's going on in our world over the course of the pandemic. As you know, every company became a technology company. People had to like double their engineering staffs over without anybody ever having met in person mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And when that kind of change is going around the world cloud needing be being the scaffolding of how people build and deploy modern software just grew really with it. And the use cases we needed to support grew. That's why the types of projects and kinds of projects is growing. So there's a method. There's a reason to the madness I should say. And I think, um, as the world and, uh, the landscape of technology evolves cloud native will, will evolve and keep developing in either into new projects or consolidation of projects and everything is on the table. >>So I think one of these perceptions Riley Arone is that CNCF is kind of where the big people go to play. If you're a small project and you're looking at CNCF, you're thinking one day I'll get big enough. Like how should small project leaders or leaders of small projects, how should they engage CNCF? >>Totally. And, you know, I want to really change this narrative because, um, in CNCF we have three tiers of projects. There's the graduated ones, which are at the top. These are the most mature ones we really believe and put our sand behind them. They, uh, then there's the incubating projects, which are pretty solid technologies with good usage that are getting there. And then there's the sandbox, which is literally a sandbox and op open ground for innovation. And the bar to entry is low in that it's, uh, easy to apply. There's a mass boat to get you in. And once you're in, you have a neutral IP zone created by being a CNCF project that you can attract more maintainers, more companies can start collaborating. So we, we become an enabler for the small projects, so everybody should know that >>FYI. Yeah. So I won't be interested to know how that, so I have an idea. So let's say I don't have an idea, but let's say that idea have, >>I'm sure you have an idea. <laugh>, I'm >>Sure I have idea. And, and I just don't have the infrastructure to run a project. I need help, but I think it it's going to solve a pro problem. Yeah. What's that application process like, >>So, okay. So you apply after you already have let's a GitHub repo. Okay. Yeah. >>So you, I have a GI help repo. >>Yeah. As in like your pro you've started the project, you started the coding, you've like, put it out there on GitHub, you have something going. And so it's not at just ideal level. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's at like early stage of execution level. Um, and so, and then your question was, how do you apply? >>Yeah. So how do I, so I have, let's say that, uh, let, let's talk about something I'm thinking about doing, and I actually do, is that we're thinking about doing a open store, a cloud native framework for people migrating to the public cloud, to, or to cloud native. There's just not enough public information about that. And I'm like, you know what? I wanna contribute what I know to it. So that's a project in itself, not necessarily a software project, but a IP project, or let's say I have a tool to do that migration. And I put that up on my GitHub report. I want people to iterate on that tool. >>Right. So it would be a simple process of literally there is when you go to, um, our, uh, online, uh, materials, there's a simple process for sandbox where you fill a Google form, where you put in your URL, explain what you're doing, or some basic information hit submit. And we batch process these, um, about every once a month, I think. And, uh, the TC looks at the, what you've filled in, takes a group vote and goes from there. >>When about your operating model, I mean, do, do you, you mentioned you don't look to make a profit in this show. Do you look, and I wanna be sure CNCF is a non-profit, is that correct? Correct. Do you look, what models do you look at in determining your own governance? Do you look at a commercial business? Do you look at a nonprofit? Um, like of ourselves? Yeah. What's your model for how you run CNCF. >>Oh, okay. So it's a nonprofit, as I said, and our model is very simple. We want to raise the funds that we are able to raise in order to then invest them into community initiatives that play the supporter enabler role to all these projects we just talked about. We're not, we are never the project. We are the top cheerleader of the project. Think of us like that. And in terms of, um, but interestingly, unlike, I, I mean, I don't know much about other found, uh, nonprofit session compare, but interestingly, the donating companies are relevant, not just because of their cash that they have put in, but because those companies are part of this ecosystem and they need to, um, them being in this ecosystem, they help create content around cloud native. They, they do more than give us money. And that's why we really like our members, uh, they'll provide contributing engineers to projects. They will help us with marketing with case studies and interviews and all of that. And so it, it becomes this like healthy cycle of it starts with someone donating to become a member, but they end up doing so many different things. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and ultimately the goal is make cloud native ubiquitous and all this goes towards >>That. So talk to me about conflict resolution, because there's some really big projects in CNC, but only some stuff that is changed, literally changing the world, but there's competing interest between some of the projects. I mean, you, you, there there's, if you look at service mesh, there's a lot of service mesh solutions Uhhuh. Yes. And there's just different visions. Where's the CNCF and, and kind of just making sure the community aspect is thought across all of the different or considered across all the different projects as they have the let's say inevitably bump heads. >>Yeah. So by design CNCF was never meant to be a king maker where you picked one project. Right. And I think that's been working out really well because, um, one is when you accept a project, you're not a hundred percent sure that specific one is gonna take over that technology space. Right. So we're leaving it open to see who works it out. The second is that as every company is becoming a technology company, use cases are different. So a service mesh service mesh a might work really well for my company, but it really may not be a fit for your code base. And so the diversity of options is actually a really good thing. >>So talk to me about, uh, saw an interesting note coming out of the keynote yesterday, 65% of the participants here at CU con are new to Kuan. I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a vet. You are, I went to two or three before this. So O GE yeah, OG actually, that's what I tweeted OG of Kuan, but, uh, who, who are they like, what's making up? Are they developers? Are they traditional enterprises? Are they contributing companies? Who's the 65%, >>Um, who's the 65%, >>Right? The new, new, >>Well, it's all kinds of C companies sending their developers, right? It's sometimes there's a lot of them are end users. I think at least half or a third, at least of attendees are end user companies. And, uh, then there is also like the new startups around town. And then there is like the, every big company or small has been hiring developers as fast as possible. And even if they've always been a player in cloud native, they need to send all these people to this ecosystem to start building the relationships start like learning the technology. So it's all kinds of folks are collecting to that here. >>As I, as I think about people starting to learn the technologies, learn the communities, the one thing the market change for this coupon for me over others is the number of customers, sharing stories, end user organizations. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> much of the cuon that I've been through many of the open source conferences. It's always been like vendors pushing their message, et cetera. What talk, tell me about that. C change. >>One thing that's like just immediate, um, and the case right now is that all the co-chairs for the event who are in charge of designing the agenda are end users. So we have Emily Fox from apple. We have Jasmine James from Twitter, and we have Ricardo Roka from se. So they're all end users. So naturally they're like, you know, picking talks that they're like, well, this is very relevant. Imma go for that and I'm here for it. Right? So that's one thing that's just happening. The other though is a greater trend, which is, as I was saying in the pandemic, so many companies has to get going and quickly that they have built expertise and users are no longer the passive recipients of information. They're equal contributors. They know what they need, what they want, they have experiences to share. And you're seeing that reflected in the conference. >>One thing I've seen at other conferences in the past that started out really for practitioners, uh, is that invariably, they want to go upscale and they wanna draw the CIOs and the, oh yeah. The, uh, you know, the executive, the top executives. Is that an objective, uh, for you or, or do you really want to keep this kind of a, a t-shirt crowd for the long term? >>Hey, everyone's welcome. That's really important, you know? Right. And, um, so we, and that's why we are trying to expand. It's like, you know, middle out as they had in the Silicon valley show the idea being, sorry, I just meant this a little. Okay. So the idea being that we've had the core developer crews, developer, DevOps, SRE crowd, right op over the course of the last virtual events, we actually expanded in the other direction. We put in a business value track, which was more for like people in the business, but not in as a developer or DevOps engineer. We also had a student thing where it's like, you're trying to get all the university crowd people, and it's been working phenomen phenomenally. And then actually this, this event, we went, uh, in the other direction as well. We hosted our inaugural CTO summit, which is for senior leadership and end user companies. And the idea is they're discussing topics of technology that are business relevant. So our topic this time was resiliency in multi-cloud and we're producing a research paper about it. That's gonna come out in some weeks. So BA so with, for us, it's about getting everybody under this tent. Right. And, but it will never mean that we deprioritize what we started with, which is the engineering crowd. It's just an expansion >>Stay true to your roots. >>Yes. Well, Prianca, we're going to talk to a lot of those startup communities tomorrow. Ah, tomorrow's coverage. It's all about startups. Why should CTOs, uh, new startups talk to these upstarts of as opposed to some of the bigger players here on the show floor, over 170 sponsoring companies, the show floor has been vibrant engaging. Yes. And we're going to get into that community tomorrow's coverage on the cube from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townson, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader and high tech coverage.

>> Live from Washington DC. It's theCUBE, covering Inforum DC2018, brought to you by Infor. >> Well good afternoon and welcome back to Inform18, we are live in Washington DC, the nation's capital for this year's show. Joining Dave Vellante and me is Corey Tollefson, who is the Senior Vice President and General Manager for retail at Infor. Corey good to see you today sir. >> Good to see you, good to be seen. >> Yeah, right (laughs) it is, under any circumstance right. >> Absolutely. >> So retail, you talk about a world that's kind of upside down now. The brick and mortar guys are, they aren't brick and mortar anymore. So talk about the state of the industry if you would a little bit since it's moved to the digital platform and how that's changing your work with it. >> It certainly was simple 20 years ago. Manufacturers manufactured things, wholesale distributors distributed things, and then retailers sold things. Right, and so the whole business model has been disrupted. Mainly because of the advent of the mobile phone, a mobile device. I said it last year it feels like everyday you wake up and it's very chaotic and there is a lot of disorder. And I think it's an amazing opportunity for retailers to reinvent themselves into a modern 21st century retailer. Everyday is a challenge but we're working on it. >> So what's it like, I mean, every retailer I talk to has this sort of Amazon war room. They're trying to use their physical presence to drive online. They're really getting creative. Amazon continues to do super well. There are those who are predicting the end of of retail stores because of AI etcetera. What's your take? You're knee deep in this business. >> Well I feel, I mean Amazon certainly is bringing a lot of downward pressure. It's the first digital, retail is the first industry to be digitally disrupted. It is happening in healthcare, its happening in manufacturing, but retail brought on the initial wave so to speak. And what I'm seeing is a lot of the middle of the road retailers that don't have too much of an online presence, their legacy brands that maybe had their following 20 years ago. They're going to get squeezed out because the middle in this group is going to get squeezed out. The high end brands that control their own brand image, they brand manufacture their own products, they also have their own retail stores. Those are the companies that are uniquely qualified to compete and thrive against Amazon because the last I looked having stores and having an outlet for immediate gratification of getting products and services is a good thing. The retailers that we are working with are combating that against pure plays like Amazon. >> But there's some consumer friction there right, and it's generational, so how we shop is different then how our kids shop. They look at retail in a very different, through a very different prism then we do. So how do you address that in terms of, how do you help your clients address that through different segmentation of their audiences and addressing those unique problems? >> Well even as a kid I remember that the retail shopping was a destination shopping experience, so we'd load up the family truck, and we'd go to a mall, and spend the whole day. There would be entertainment there, there would be restaurants to eat at. We'd shop and then we'd come home, it was a destination. Try doing that when it is 24 hours, seven days a week, 365 days a year on your phone, suddenly the social engagement, with social media, and Snapchat, and Twitter, and Facebook. Facebook is a little old for a lot of the younglings now, but the moral of the story is social media takes on everything and that's where the influence is. And that whole shopping experience it used to be, well I'm just going to get some product information and then I'm going to go into the store. That's been completely disrupted as well. One other aspect of this is the whole concept of consumerism is disrupted. There is a lot of, you know you look at a lot of the cool brands that are in other adjacent industries whether its Uber or Airbnb, they don't own any of their assets. Same thing is happening in retail, a lot of the new emerging brands are going to have disruptive business models. Like you go into a store and they don't even have any inventory. It's all made to order right. So there's a lot of disruption that's happening and we're working with a lot of brands to help. >> So talk about the next big thing NBT, next big thing in retail is that one of them? I go into a store and say that's what I want send it to my house, what else? >> Well I think one of the next big things that we're working on is the whole concept of machine learning. I think you guys have heard about this before, but the whole technology singularity where its the point in which there is no differentiation between engaging with a customer. Oh sorry engaging with a human versus engaging with a computer. We're not that far away and its a little bit scary. I think we talked about it a couple years ago but the whole concept is why do I need to interact with a human being for my shopping experience? I can just interact with a chat bot, for example. As long as I the customer gets the information I need to make an informed decision, I don't really feel weird talking to a computer anymore. >> Yeah so that's the idea of systems of agency, right, where the machine is taking action on behalf of the brand, and the consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care. >> Right that's right. >> So do you have customers that are on the precipice of doing that? >> Yeah we do. In one of the areas I have talked about this before, machine learning-based demand forecasting. So getting better at forecasting the right product, the right skew on a store-by-location basis. And what we do is we leverage a lot of the inherent capabilities of the internet. A lot of companies talk about cloud as simply a cost reduction. We view cloud as taking advantage of the world's greatest super computer which is the internet. And so, that's one of the areas in which we've been using machine learning. >> So what's the, you say the company, that mid-lane, or middle range, what are they to do now? Because they are kind of stuck, they have their challenges, they have this legacy approach that they are kind of in a tough spot. >> The die has been cast, if I was in their shoes, a lot of these middle of the road retailers. I would look at finding ways to optimize what I have. So whether that's optimizing your inventory, optimizing your labor. That's another thing we talked about, Charles this morning mentioned the whole concept of unleashing maximizing human behavior and unleashing human capital. For years we've been on shows like this talking about products, instead it's about engaging your customer. Everybody's a customer, if you're in healthcare you're a customer. In manufacturing distribution, you have customers. To look at it more from a human element around store associates, I think there's are a lot of middle of the road retailers that have an old iconic brand that could reinvent themselves with time and enough patience. >> How do you deal with the inevitable, well first of all how do your customers deploy your software? It's in the cloud. >> Yeah. >> It's in the Amazon cloud right? >> Well three years ago we made a fundamental decision that we were not going to be an on premise company. So we are a cloud-only applications provider. The second decision point we made was, do we want to be suite or best-to-breed. And when we say suite that was our decision. The third point was, how do you want it to be able to be deployed? So when I started off in this industry which felt like yesterday. I feel like I'm super old now, I started off as a software developer for a company called Retech out of Minneapolis. You know I was doing batch forms, and Oracle PL/SQL and everything was tied to the database, and the user experience was basically a graphical depiction of a database. (Dave laughs) But back in those days-- >> And it still is in a lot of apps. >> Yeah. In those days it was pretty much all about developing that individual code. I kind of lost my train of thought on that. The way you can deploy our assets is on an individualized basis. You can deploy our demand forecasting engine for example. You can deploy our allocation and replenishment engine. And when you tie it all together, you can have a suite that doesn't need to be deployed like it used to be in the old days is where I was going. Which is you have to deploy the whole data model to get all the information that you're looking for. >> Okay so in retail you've got the inevitable, oh well, I'm going to run this in Amazon, they're my big competitor, they're disrupting me. What's the conversation like with customers? How do you guarantee we're protecting their data, you point to Netflix and say hey it's working for them? What do you say? >> Well I think, I mean we're Infor, we're a big company. It's on a case-by-case basis. Yes we have a relationship with AWS and yes they are a strategic partner for us. That doesn't preclude the fact that we work with Google we work with Azure. We are cloud agnostic in retail so, it hasn't been as big of an issue as a lot of industry critics and analysts have made it out to be. >> So if there were an issue, you'd could run it anywhere you want. >> Yeah you just swap it out yeah. >> Alright I want to change gears here. Announcement on the stage today, keynote Van Jones from CNN was talking about #YesWeCode, an organization he has an affiliation with. You've created this, well launched an initiative NextGen. First off explain what that is but fill us back up to the genesis of that because as we found out just a few moments before it's a pretty interesting journey. >> Yeah. >> That you personally were involved in. >> Yeah, I know I am sure a lot of friends and family that know me well are going to be tired of hearing this story. I will give you the condensed version, which is-- >> Take your time. >> Growing up in Minneapolis, I was a huge Prince fan like most Minneapolis people are. And through serendipity I met Prince's brother, and Prince's brother pre-social, pre-internet, pre-mobile, put me on Prince's private guest list for parties at Paisley Park. And so here I am I had a loving family, and I can't believe my mom and dad would let me do this, but I am 16, 17 years old going to parties with Prince. And when I say parties I mean these were intimate parties, maybe the most was 50 people in his house. Sometimes there's like five of us, and what happened at these parties were he would play new music. If we danced and got up there and jammed with him, then he'd put it on an album. If it wasn't very good, or he felt like there wasn't a good strong reaction he put it in his vault. So we were a test case, a Petri dish so to speak, for his music. And I got to build a relationship with him as much as anyone that could. He was a very stand-offish person, but a brilliant artist, and a brilliant human being for that matter. I got to build that relationship and through that relationship I met Van Jones. We hooked up again at one of Prince's memorials a couple of years ago after his death, and we looked at each other and we connected and I said I'm in the technology industry. And he goes we got to talk because there's some things related to Prince's legacy we should really talk about. Which ties us back to #YesWeCode and the announcement we made today about GenOne. >> For GenOne excuse me I said NextGen. >> Yeah GenOne. >> My fault. >> Yeah no, no worries. And the genesis of this was Prince, Rogers Nelson, and Van Jones had a conversation right after Trayvon Martin was shot and killed. And a lot of people suspect the main reason was he looked suspect because he had a hoodie on. And here is an African American kid wearing a hoodie, they follow him and bad things happen right. Van Jones asked Prince directly he goes, you know clearly that guy was racist. And Prince said, think again, maybe if that was a white kid in Silicon Valley wearing a hoodie he'd be a dot.com billionaire, but because we haven't produced enough people of color in CEO level positions in our tech industry, that's on us. Meaning we need to develop more of our own. And so this project means a lot to us, because of the fact that we don't think diversity is just a check box that you have on your corporate mission statement. We think diversity can change the DNA of your company and it can influence better products, solutions, and services to our customers. So it's really important for us and this is just the first step of a multi-echelon, multi-year, multi-faceted program. That we want to take this and roll it out to the entire industry. I'd love for Salesforce and Oracle and SAP and Workday. I'd love for all of them to adapt a program similar to this. This isn't pride of ownership, it's the right thing to do and putting brilliant kids and brilliant minds that maybe came from a bad circumstance, they all deserve a chance too. And it only makes all of us better, and I feel like a lot of great things have happened to me in my career and I feel like I have to give back. And if I can be a small part of this with Van, so be it. >> So that's a very thoughtful response by Prince, and you were saying earlier Corey it was sort of hard to get to know him. Was that typical of Prince, was he sort of introspective and maybe pensive and prescient in that way? >> Well the piece the people that don't understand about Prince is that the whole story of his life is written in his music. And he's released over two thousand songs, you know I'm sure the family and the estate might see this but I've heard another couple thousand songs that have been unreleased and it's beautiful brilliant music and his whole life story is there. You just need to listen to the lyrics, or read the lyrics and listen to the music. >> So was... You mentioned this story, and I just thought 17-year-old kid, I mean with all do respect you don't look like one of Prince's friends right. You're a Minnesota guy, he was too, but just different and I think, did you ever just think that what in the world am I doing here? >> I had that moment, I will never forget that one moment. So it was probably the summer of 1995, Prince was standing five feet from me. He had his right hand strumming his electric guitar, his left hand was playing lead keyboard lines on the keyboard, his right foot was controlling the pitch of the guitar, the left foot was controlling the pitch on the keys, and he was singing vocals and dancing. And I said to myself, I pinched myself, and I said this moment in time, if Amadeus Mozart was standing here he would be blown away. Because there is nobody in the history of music that can write, produce all this great music, but also maintain that look, that image. And then the musicianship, he's a musician's musician. You know we talk about Lenny Kravitz, I ran into Lenny Kravitz about 20 years ago sitting on Prince's couch. He probably doesn't remember me, I am pretty sure he doesn't. >> We'll find out tomorrow night. >> We'll find out tomorrow, but I mean the moral of the story is he was a musician's musician. I'll never forget sitting on the couch and this really soft spoken gal said to me she was really nervous to perform tonight. And I am like don't worry you go this, and it was an 18 year old Alicia Keys. And Prince behind the scenes had been cultivating and developing talent whether its Beyonce, Alicia Keys, Nora Jones, you know. These people he helped develop behind the scenes, and no one really knew it. >> Well his band members were always incredibly talented. I don't know if you ever saw Prince live. >> Nope, did not. >> You've saw him many times. Man as he would say, that band was tight. (laughing) >> That's right. >> Well the program's a great legacy. >> It is. >> And one that is certainly not apparent, but it is great to know that back story to know the generation of that. What got going and certainly I think there's a lot seems like of emotional equity that you and the company have invested, to make sure it's successful as well. >> We think that it was Prince's legacy, but we feel like he has passed the torch between Van, myself and Charles. This really means a lot to us. So we want to take it to the next level so, we are pretty excited. >> Fantastic. >> Congratulations. >> Thanks for having me here. >> Thanks for sharing the story too. I'm glad and it's just wonderful and look forward to talking to Charles about it, when we have him on tomorrow. Alright back with more we are live here, theCUBE is covering Inforum18 in Washington D.C. 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>> Live from Washington DC, it's theCUBE. Covering Inforum DC 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Well, welcome to the nation's capital, a rain soaked Washington DC. We're here for Inforum 18, Dave Vellante, John Walls We're in the Walter Washington Convention Center. The fourth time, theCUBE has been at an Infor show and getting bigger and better than ever, David. >> That's right John. This is, let's see, the first one was in New Orleans several years ago. Then Infor skipped a year, and then did Javits couple years in a row. That's sort of the headquarters of where Infor is, very close to the Javits Center. And Charles Phillips, of course, lives in New York City. And this year they decided to come to the nation's capital. I mean, Infor is an interesting company. About $3billion in revenue, essentially it is a private equity roll up. From Golden Gate and others, that really the roots of it are in Lawson Softwares. Some of you may remember Lawson Softwares, the enterprise software company. And then Charles Phillips came on, and of course he was the architect of Oracle's M and A. Probably spent $30 plus billion for Larry Ellison, remaking Oracle. Completely transforming Oracle, brought some of that expertise to Infor in this private equity play, this roll up. And then bought many, many software companies, rolled them up together and really started to compete, using a different model. So, Infor's sort of expertise, if you will is around so called Micro verticals, so they cover a lot of different industries, hospitality industries, they got also manufacturing, ERP, >> Retail financial >> Retail financial, health care, and then they also have horizontal applications like Human Capital management. Their differentiation, is several fold. One major point is they go after what they call the last mile. So they call this micro verticals. So the last mile functionality that would normally have to be customized, Infor does that work for you. Now, the advantage of that is two fold. One is you don't have to do a bunch of custom mods all that hard work is done. The second is, another part of the differentiation is cloud. So they chose, several years ago to go with AWS cloud to put their SaaS on the cloud. Charles Phillips said 'hey when we were an on-prem software company, we didn't manage our own servers for our customers. Or manage customer servers, we didn't do that. So why would we do it in the cloud? We don't want to compete with Google and Microsoft and Amazon in terms of scale, so were going to put our software on the Amazon cloud.' So that's another point of differentiation, the reason that is so important in the context of custom mods, is if you're rolling out new upgrades on a periodic basis, and you hear this a lot from Servicenow customers, for example another cloud software company. You can't do custom mods and then take advantage of the new releases. Because you're going to be way behind. Okay, so you have to have that hard work done so that you can avoid those custom modification. And that is something Infor has been very proud of. So as I say, $3billion company. Last year they took a $2billion investment from Koch industries. Now that investment, largely went to recapitalising the company, the private equity guys probably took some money off the table as did the four, what I call the four horsemen. They were the four, sort of new founders of Infor including Charles Phillips, Pam Murphey who is still there and then two others Duncan Angove and Stephan who have left the company, so they have got some succession planning now. We saw a different, two new faces up on stage Soma and we're going to have some other folks on that we'll introduce you to. But so, now we're entering a new phase and it's the phase of what Charles Phillip's coined 'Human Potentials'. So big focus this year on human capital management, we heard that. Big focus on AI, they talked a lot about robotic process automation. I just had a meeting, last night at the airport in DCA with the head of marketing at an RPA company, UiPath, they are smoking hot, they just raised 225 million they have gone from 2 million to 200 million over night. And that space is exploding, it was interesting to hear Charles Phillips talk a lot today about Robotic process automation, RPA. Which is essentially software >> Break that down for me. >> So RPA is software robots and software robots are used to automate mundane tasks. Having machines do very specific tasks and you are seeing this a lot in financial services and a lot of back office automation. It's not physical robots moving around, it's basically software based processes that machines can do. Repetitive processes, that machines can do better. Machines don't get tired, so they can do these repetitive tasks, take that away those mundane tasks away from humans. You heard a lot of conversation about that today. You also heard a little competitive fire. So Oracle is now taking ads out against Infor, we've seen that. All the cabs here, many of the cabs have Oracle branding on them. So Oracle is paying attention to Infor. >> And they're right down the road here too, by the way. You know, I mean, Western Virginia not far so this is their backyard. >> Well congratulations Infor, Oracle is paying attention to you that means, must mean you're hurting them We've seen this before with others, I mean we certainly saw it, you know in past days with IBM, we see it extensively with Workday. We've seen some kind of, tit for tat with SalesForce, even though SalesForce is one of Oracles largest customers. So that's been kind of fun, fun to watch. And now Infor, so Infor clearly is doing some damage, to the traditional guys. Oracle, SAP, Workday maybe not so much Workday is growing like crazy, but Infor claims it is growing SaaS revenue 50% faster than Oracle's SaaS revenue. It's growing double the rate of SAP, and growing as fast almost as Workday, is kind of what it claims. And so, this whole enterprise resource planning, HCM, vertical market software, horizontal software the market is always been hot. It's a huge, huge market. Many, many, tens of billions, it's probably a hundred billion dollar TAM. And the big, big whales are of course Oracle and SAP, and then of course, SalesForce and you've seen the emergence of companies like ServiceNow which has quite a bit of different strategy but with Oracle, with Infor's sort of Oracle heritage a lot of people in the company came from Oracle so they know where the skeletons are buried they know how to compete, they have relationships with the customers. And they're offering some differentiation, as they say with those Micro verticals, the last mile, and the pure cloud model. Now, if you look at the income statement you'll see the SaaS portion of the business only represents about 25% of the revenues but remember, that's a ratable model. So you're only recognizing revenue as you're, as the months go on, so you're billing sort of monthly if you will, or recognizing monthly. And so, as a result that skews and dampens the effects of the SaaS software, I think from a booking stand point is probably much higher, proportion of bookings I would guess closer to 50% as they said they took $2billion last year from Koch industries. That $2billion dollars didn't really hit the balance sheets, they get about $330million on the balance sheet. And they've a lot of debt, because they you know did you know, it was a private equity you know leverage deal. They did a lot of acquisitions, so they've probably got about $5.7billions of what they call net debt, which presumably is debt after cash. So I would guess close to $6billion in debt. They're a quasi, they're not a public company they're a private company, but they act in many ways like a public company, I would suspect within the next couple of years here, if this kind of growth continues that you'll see an IPO, from Infor. Although, presumably Koch industries, we heard Koch on stage today, they said they've made $15billion in investments in technology companies. $2billion, this has to be one of their largest. And, but that's patient capital. They get the benefit of the cash flow, they can probably take dividends if they want to do that. And if they're smart, and they invest and they can take market share from Oracle and SAP and others, and gain share in the market space, they can do an IPO. They're revenues are $3billion, their valuation, they implied a valuation based on the Koch industries investment is $15billion. So if they can take that $15billion to $30billion 20 to 30 billion, there's going to be a nice return. >> You know I thought, what's interesting about Koch too they talked about this, it's certainly as you talked about 2billion right. They put the money in, but they're also, it's a symbiotic relationship, in that that Koch is using it's organization as a test lab. For a lot of products and services, that Infor is producing. And allowing them to refine that under the Koch umbrella before they take it out to the market place. So that's pretty true, I feel like seems to makes sense. You have a company that has 60,000 world wide employees, you're in dozens of countries, you've a chance to let them take their products to scale, in maybe a somewhat more friendlier, controlled environment before you take it out to the marketplace. That seems to make a lot of sense. >> Yeah, we heard the CIO of Koch industries today and I talked to him last year, and we were talking about some of the technical debt that they had, again going back to those custom modifications that I was talking about earlier. They were in this terrible virtuous cycle almost a negative virtuous cycle where they had so many custom mods that they couldn't make changes. So the applications were becoming voxalised, so they were becoming non competitive and that is the last thing that a line of business wants to hear, is 'hey we can't make the changes, right IT says no, we can't touch the code, it's working or changes take too long. They take months or sometimes years, to get to a major release and so as a result Koch was looking for ways to simplify its application portfolio and its application infrastructure. The other thing that Koch industries has brought is, you might notice on the show floor here, you see Accenture, you see Deloitte, you're seeing Grant Thornton, now these guys weren't really going after, or going hard after the Infor base before. I think, a company like Koch industries does a lot of business with these SIs and so I think Koch has introduced the SIs to the Infor opportunity and maybe nudged them a little bit and say 'hey as a big you know supplier to us, we're a big customer of yours we want you to pay attention to that opportunity and in earnest go look at ways to partner with Infor. And that's happened, my intelligence suggests there are many multi million dollar deals that are being capitalized by these big SIs and they do a ton of business with SAP and Oracle. So that's another positive in the tail wind that Koch industries, I think it's brought to the table. >> Alright, you mention human potential which is the real overarching theme of the show here this week. Again, we're here in Washington DC. I was just listening to Van Jones from CNN. One of their anchors and political contributor talking about that as his personal mantra but certainly that intersects with what Infor is talking about in terms of unlocking human potential and using technology to do that. Share a little light from Charles Phillip's perspective the key note address that he gave, in terms of how do they view human potential and unlocking it with the use of their services? >> Well we're going to have Charles Phillip's on so we'll certainly ask him that but Charles Phillip's is a guy with a lot of potential. And that he is realizing that potential >> Lot of track record too >> Exactly, this is an individual with a military background, he became I don't know if you know the story but he became a highly successful Wall Street analyst. He wrote the seminal piece in the 90s that said the software industry, is too many software players and is going to consolidate. Larry Ellison, prior to reading that used to denigrate competitors for writing cheques not code. Meaning, his competitors were acquiring companies instead of innovating. Well then, he went on a spending spree probably 30, 35 million dollars in acquisitions orchestrated by Charles Phillips. And they totally remade Oracle starting with a soft hostile takeover. And then now you see Oracle, obviously this Saas powerhouse with many many companies that were bought in. Charles Phillips left Oracle, became the CEO of Infor and we heard today, architected an entirely new strategy with a stack, they call this thing the Stack. I'll just go through this briefly, I wrote about it last year, in the WikiBon blog. They've got the Infor platform, the Infor OS and then it goes all the way up to AI, the last mile software, the cloud. They have this thing called GT nexus, which is a supply chain network and that where their IoT play fits. Then they bought a company last year called Birst, to do BI and analytics, and then on top of that is Coleman. So they've got this stack that they are basically infusing into their applications, and I will answer your question. Essentially what they want to do is, use automation and artificial intelligence to essentially coach people, worker, as they're doing their jobs. So we heard today, that there are more openings than there are unemployed >> Employees, yeah. >> And productivity is going down. So Infor, Charles Phillips wants to attack that problem through software and automation. How do you do that? Well, if you could use artificial intelligence to monitor people's KPIs, they didn't use those terms but that is essentially what they are doing. And then provide feedback on outcomes, 'hey you could have done it differently. You could have done it more quickly. The outcome could have been better if.' Also, analyzing other factors like the relationship for example, using data to analyze the relationship between say tenure or were you recently promoted or turn over on the productivity of for instance stores, retail stores for example. And so, you're seeing an infusion of AI and software and automation in to the entire application portfolio to unlock the human potential. That's one part of it, the other part of it is Charles Phillips is big on diversity, big on women in business, and so that's another angle that I am sure we are going to hear more about this week. >> I thought it was interesting too any time a show comes to Washington there is a reason. And it's generally federal sector based, policy based. There's a regulatory undertone of some kind. And it was addressed somewhat on the key note stage here this morning. But the idea, the notion was that federal regulation and federal mandates, whatever, can't keep up the pace. They just can't, and it really is up to the tech sector because it works on a much different time frame, right? I mean, changes are made by the minute, whereas policy gets shaped by the year. You know, up on the hill here, not far about 3 miles 2 miles from here. So, the tech sector's responsibility in that regard in terms of being more diverse, of having more inclusivity, of looking at environmental considerations. All these things, and of unleashing human potential. And not at making a government do that. Not letting a regulation do that. That certainly plays in the Infor's thinking as well, I would think? >> Yes, so first of all we were down here at the AWS public sector event in June. And there were ten thousand people here. So AWS has a huge presence here. Infor and AWS are big time partners. And remember the CIA was the first deal, the first cloud deal, that AWS did, they won. IBM contested it, the judge eviscerated IBM in his ruling. Basically saying they were gaming the system. They were purposely misinterpreting the RFP. Amazon won hands down, it was a huge victory for Amazon. Forced IBM to go out and capitulate and purchase Softlayer for $2billion. I believe that only helps a company like Infor who has decided to be all public cloud, with AWS and drafting off AWS' deep ties to various government agencies, in the GovCloud. So for instance, AWS was first with fedramp. First with a lot of different certifications and security hurdles. And so Infor can just draft off of that. The CIA, again a big account, we heard the CIA talk in June about how security on the worst day of cloud is better than its client server applications on their best day. And so, I suspect Infor is doing business with the CIA although that's not come out publicly. But I would think that there is an advantage Infor has because of that AWS relationship. And that makes DC all the much more important for them. Well, we are at Inforum 18, we have a full 2 days of scheduling for you. Great guest coming up here on theCUBE. I am with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls We'll continue here on theCUBE live from DC right after this break.

>> Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE! Covering Inforum D.C. 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Well, welcome back to Washington, D.C., We are alive here at the Convention Center at Inforum 18, along with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls. It's a pleasure now, welcome to theCUBE, Leigh Martin, who is the Senior Director of the Dynamic Science Labs at Infor, and good afternoon to you Leigh! >> Good afternoon, thank you for having me. >> Thanks for comin' on. >> Thank you for being here. Alright, well tell us about the Labs first off, obviously, data science is a big push at Infor. What do you do there, and then why is data science such a big deal? >> So Dynamic Science Labs is based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, we have about 20 scientists with backgrounds in math and science areas, so typically PhDs in Statistics and Operations Research, and those types of areas. And, we've really been working over the last several years to build solutions for Infor customers that are Math and Science based. So, we work directly with customers, typically through proof of concept, so we'll work directly with customers, we'll bring in their data, and we will build a solution around it. We like to see them implement it, and make sure we understand that they're getting the value back that we expect them to have. Once we prove out that piece of it, then we look for ways to deliver it to the larger group of Infor customers, typically through one of the Cloud Suites, perhaps functionality, that's built into a Cloud Suite, or something like that. >> Well, give me an example, I mean it's so, as you think-- you're saying that you're using data that's math and science based, but, for application development or solution development if you will. How? >> So, I'll give you an example, so we have a solution called Inventory Intelligence for Healthcare, it's moving towards a more generalized name of Inventory Intelligence, because we're going to move it out of the healthcare space and into other industries, but this is a product that we built over the last couple of years. We worked with a couple of customers, we brought in their loss and data, so their loss in customers, we bring the data into an area where we can work on it, we have a scientist in our team, actually, she's one of the Senior Directors in the team, Dawn Rose, who led the effort to design and build this, design and build the algorithm underlying the product; and what it essentially does is, it allows hospitals to find the right level of inventory. Most hospitals are overstocked, so this gives them an opportunity to bring down their inventory levels, to a manageable place without increasing stockouts, so obviously, it's very important in healthcare, that you're not having a lot of stockouts. And so, we spent a lot of time working with these customers, really understanding what the data was like that they were giving to us, and then Dawn and her team built the algorithm that essentially says, here's what you've done historically, right? So it's based on historic data, at the item level, at the location level. What've you done historically, and how can we project out the levels you should have going forward, so that they're at the right level where you're saving money, but again, you're not increasing stockouts, so. So, it's a lot of time and effort to bring those pieces together and build that algorithm, and then test it out with the customers, try it out a couple of times, you make some tweaks based on their business process and exactly how it works. And then, like I said, we've now built that out into originally a stand-alone application, and in about a month, we're going to go live in Cloud Suite Financials, so it's going to be a piece of functionality inside of Cloud Suite Financials. >> So, John, if I may, >> Please. >> I'm going to digress for a moment here because the first data scientist that I ever interviewed was the famous Hilary Mason, who's of course now at Cloudera, but, and she told me at the time that the data scientist is a part mathematician, part scientist, part statistician, part data hacker, part developer, and part artist. >> Right. (laughs) >> So, you know it's an amazing field that Hal Varian, who is the Google Economist said, "It's going to be the hottest field, in the next 10 years." And this is sort of proven true, but Leigh, my question is, so you guys are practitioners of data science, and then you bring that into your product, and what we hear from a lot of data scientists, other than that sort of, you know, panoply of skill sets, is, they spend more time wrangling data, and the tooling isn't there for collaboration. How are you guys dealing with that? How has that changed inside of Infor? >> It is true. And we actually really focus on first making sure we understand the data and the context of the data, so it's really important if you want to solve a particular business problem that a customer has, to make sure you understand exactly what is the definition of each and every piece of data that's in all of those fields that they sent over to you, before you try to put 'em inside an algorithm and make them do something for you. So it is very true that we spend a lot of time cleaning and understanding data before we ever dive into the problem solving aspect of it. And to your point, there is a whole list of other things that we do after we get through that phase, but it's still something we spend a lot of time on today, and that has been the case for, a long time now. We, wherever we can, we apply new tools and new techniques, but actually just the simple act of going in there and saying, "What am I looking at, how does it relate?" Let me ask the customer to clarify this to make sure I understand exactly what it means. That part doesn't go away, because we're really focused on solving the customer solution and then making sure that we can apply that to other customers, so really knowing what the data is that we're working with is key. So I don't think that part has actually changed too much, there are certainly tools that you can look at. People talk a lot about visualization, so you can start thinking, "Okay, how can I use some visualization to help me understand the data better?" But, just that, that whole act of understanding data is key and core to what we do, because, we want to build the solution that really answers the answers the business problem. >> The other thing that we hear a lot from data scientists is that, they help you figure out what questions you actually have to ask. So, it sort of starts with the data, they analyze the data, maybe you visualize the data, as you just pointed out, and all these questions pop out. So what is the process that you guys use? You have the data, you've got the data scientist, you're looking at the data, you're probably asking all these questions. You get, of course, get questions from your customers as well. You're building models maybe to address those questions, training the models to get better and better and better, and then you infuse that into your software. So, maybe, is that the process? Is it a little more complicated than that? Maybe you could fill in the gaps. >> Yeah, so, I, my personal opinion, and I think many of my colleagues would agree with me on this is, starting with the business problem, for us, is really the key. There are ways to go about looking at the data and then pulling out the questions from the data, but generally, that is a long and involved process. Because, it takes a lot of time to really get that deep into the data. So when we work, we really start with, what's the business problem that the customer's trying to solve? And then, what's the data that needs to be available for us to be able to solve that? And then, build the algorithm around that. So for us, it's really starting with the business problem. >> Okay, so what are some of the big problems? We heard this morning, that there's a problem in that, there's more job openings than there are candidates, and productivity, business productivity is not being impacted. So there are two big chewy problems that data scientists could maybe attack, and you guys seem to be passionate about those, so. How does data science help solve those problems? >> So, I think that, at Infor, I'll start off by saying at Infor there's actually, I talked about the folks that are in our office in Cambridge, but there's quite a bit of data science going on outside of our team, and we are the data science team, but there are lots of places inside of Infor where this is happening. Either in products that contains some sort of algorithmic approach, the HCM team for sure, the talent science team which works on HCM, that's a team that's led by Jill Strange, and we work with them on certain projects in certain areas. They are very focused on solving some of those people-related problems. For us, we work a little bit more on the, some of the other areas we work on is sort of the manufacturing and distribution areas, we work with the healthcare side of things, >> So supply chain, healthcare? >> Exactly. So some of the other areas, because they are, like I said, there are some strong teams out there that do data science, it's just, it's also incorporated with other things, like the talent science team. So, there's lots of examples of it out there. In terms of how we go about building it, so we, like I was saying, we work on answering the business, the business question upfront, understanding the data, and then, really sitting with the customer and building that out, and, so the problems that come to us are often through customers who have particular things that they want to answer. So, a lot of it is driven by customer questions, and particular problems that they're facing. Some of it is driven by us. We have some ideas about things that we think, would be really useful to customers. Either way, it ends up being a customer collaboration with us, with the product team, that eventually we'll want to roll it out too, to make sure that we're answering the problem in the way that the product team really feels it can be rolled out to customers, and better used, and more easily used by them. >> I presume it's a non-linear process, it's not like, that somebody comes to you with a problem, and it's okay, we're going to go look at that. Okay now, we got an answer, I mean it's-- Are you more embedded into the development process than that? Can you just explain that? >> So, we do have, we have a development team in Prague that does work with us, and it's depending on whether we think we're going to actually build a more-- a product with aspects to it like a UI, versus just a back end solution. Depends on how we've decided we want to proceed with it. so, for example, I was talking about Inventory Intelligence for Healthcare, we also have Pricing Science for Distribution, both of those were built initially with UIs on them, and customers could buy those separately. Now that we're in the Cloud Suites, that those are both being incorporated into the Cloud Suite. So, we have, going back to where I was talking about our team in Prague, we sometimes build product, sort of a fully encased product, working with them, and sometimes we work very closely with the development teams from the various Cloud Suites. And the product management team is always there to help us, to figure out sort of the long term plan and how the different pieces fit together. >> You know, kind of big picture, you've got AI right, and then machine learning, pumping all kinds of data your way. So, in a historical time frame, this is all pretty new, this confluence right? And in terms of development, but, where do you see it like 10 years from now, 20 years from now? What potential is there, we've talked about human potential, unlocking human potential, we'll unlock it with that kind of technology, what are we looking at, do you think? >> You know, I think that's such a fascinating area, and area of discussion, and sort of thinking, forward thinking. I do believe in sort of this idea of augmented intelligence, and I think Charles was talking a little bit about, about that this morning, although not in those particular terms; but this idea that computers and machines and technology will actually help us do better, and be better, and being more productive. So this idea of doing sort of the rote everyday tasks, that we no longer have to spend time doing, that'll free us up to think about the bigger problems, and hopefully, and my best self wants to say we'll work on famine, and poverty, and all those problems in the world that, really need our brains to focus on, and work. And the other interesting part of it is, if you think about, sort of the concept of singularity, and are computers ever going to actually be able to think for themselves? That's sort of another interesting piece when you talk about what's going to happen down the line. Maybe it won't happen in 10 years, maybe it will never happen, but there's definitely a lot of people out there, who are well known in sort of tech and science who talk about that, and talk about the fears related to that. That's a whole other piece, but it's fascinating to think about 10 years, 20 years from now, where we are going to be on that spectrum? >> How do you guys think about bias in AI and data science, because, humans express bias, tribalism, that's inherent in human nature. If machines are sort of mimicking humans, how do you deal with that and adjudicate? >> Yeah, and it's definitely a concern, it's another, there's a lot of writings out there and articles out there right now about bias in machine learning and in AI, and it's definitely a concern. I actually read, so, just being aware of it, I think is the first step, right? Because, as scientists and developers develop these algorithms, going into it consciously knowing that this is something they have to protect against, I think is the first step, for sure. And then, I was just reading an article just recently about another company (laughs) who is building sort of a, a bias tracker, so, a way to actually monitor your algorithm and identify places where there is perhaps bias coming in. So, I do think we'll see, we'll start to see more of those things, it gets very complicated, because when you start talking about deep learning and networks and AI, it's very difficult to actually understand what's going on under the covers, right? It's really hard to get in and say this is the reason why, your AI told you this, that's very hard to do. So, it's not going to be an easy process but, I think that we're going to start to see that kind of technology come. >> Well, we heard this morning about some sort of systems that could help, my interpretation, automate, speed up, and minimize the hassle of performance reviews. >> Yes. (laughs) >> And that's the classic example of, an assertive woman is called abrasive or aggressive, an assertive man is called a great leader, so it's just a classic example of bias. I mentioned Hilary Mason, rock star data scientist happens to be a woman, you happen to be a woman. Your thoughts as a woman in tech, and maybe, can AI help resolve some of those biases? >> Yeah. Well, first of all I want to say, I'm very pleased to work in an organization where we have some very strong leaders, who happen to be women, so I mentioned Dawn Rose, who designed our IIH solution, I mentioned Jill Strange, who runs the talent science organization. Half of my team is women, so, particularly inside of sort of the science area inside of Infor, I've been very pleased with the way we've built out some of that skill set. And, I'm also an active member of WIN, so the Women's Infor Network is something I'm very involved with, so, I meet a lot of people across our organization, a lot of women across our organization who have, are just really strong technology supporters, really intelligent, sort of go-getter type of people, and it's great to see that inside of Infor. I think there's a lot of work to be done, for sure. And you can always find stories, from other, whether it's coming out of Silicon Valley, or other places where you hear some, really sort of arcane sounding things that are still happening in the industry, and so, some of those things it's, it's disappointing, certainly to hear that. But I think, Van Jones said something this morning about how, and I liked the way he said it, and I'm not going to be able say it exactly, but he said something along the lines of, "The ground is there, the formation is starting, to get us moving in the right direction." and I think, I'm hopeful for the future, that we're heading in that way, and I think, you know, again, he sort of said something like, "Once the ground swell starts going in that direction, people will really jump in, and will see the benefits of being more diverse." Whether it's across, having more women, or having more people of color, however things expand, and that's just going to make us all better, and more efficient, and more productive, and I think that's a great thing. >> Well, and I think there's a spectrum, right? And on one side of the spectrum, there's intolerable and unacceptable behavior, which is just, should be zero tolerance in my opinion, and the passion of ours in theCUBE. The other side of that spectrum is inclusion, and it's a challenge that we have as a small company, and I remember having a conversation, earlier this year with an individual. And we talk about quotas, and I don't think that's the answer. Her comment was, "No, that's not the answer, you have to endeavor to reach deeper beyond your existing network." Which is hard sometimes for us, 'cause you're so busy, you're running around, it's like okay it's the convenient thing to do. But you got to peel the onion on that network, and actually take the extra time and make it a priority. I mean, your thoughts on that? >> No, I think that's a good point, I mean, if I think about who my circle is, right? And the people that I know and I interact with. If I only reach out to the smallest group of people, I'm not getting really out beyond my initial circle. So I think that's a very good point, and I think that that's-- we have to find ways to be more interactive, and pull from different areas. And I think it's interesting, so coming back to data science for a minute, if you sort of think about the evolution of where we got to, how we got to today where, now we're really pulling people from science areas, and math areas, and technology areas, and data scientists are coming from lots of places, right? And you don't always have to have a PhD, right? You don't necessary have to come up through that system to be a good data scientist, and I think, to see more of that, and really people going beyond, beyond just sort of the traditional circles and the traditional paths to really find people that you wouldn't normally identify, to bring into that, that path, is going to help us, just in general, be more diverse in our approach. >> Well it certainly it seems like it's embedded in the company culture. I think the great reason for you to be so optimistic going forward, not only about your job, but about the way companies going into that doing your job. >> What would you advise, young people generally, who want to crack into the data science field, but specifically, women, who have clearly, are underrepresented in technology? >> Yeah, so, I think the, I think we're starting to see more and more women enter the field, again it's one of those, people know it, and so there's less of a-- because people are aware of it, there's more tendency to be more inclusive. But I definitely think, just go for it, right? I mean if it's something you're interested in, and you want to try it out, go to a coding camp, and take a science class, and there's so many online resources now, I mean there's, the massive online courses that you can take. So, even if you're hesitant about it, there are ways you can kind of be at home, and try it out, and see if that's the right thing for you. >> Just dip your toe in the water. >> Yes, exactly, exactly! Try it out and see, and then just decide if that's the right thing for you, but I think there's a lot of different ways to sort of check it out. Again, you can take a course, you can actually get a degree, there's a wide range of things that you can do to kind of experiment with it, and then find out if that's right for you. >> And if you're not happy with the hiring opportunities out there, just start a company, that's my advice. >> That's right. (laughing together) >> Agreed, I definitely agree! >> We thank you-- we appreciate the time, and great advice, too. >> Thank you so much. >> Leigh Martin joining us here at Inforum 18, we are live in Washington, D.C., you're watching the exclusive coverage, right here, on theCUBE. (bubbly music)