>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (music plays) >> Welcome back everyone. It's Cube coverage for the first inaugural multicloud conference, Escape 2019. We are here with at Bassam Tabbara who is the CEO of Upbound, hot start-up, has not yet released their product but they're working on it. Good friend of theCube, Cube alumni. Bassam, good to see you again. >> Thank you, glad to be back on the Cube. >> Well we know your guys are beavering away, digging away at the product, building it out. You have a very compelling background coming into the cloud world. You're here at the multicloud, first ever conference >> That's right. >> There is hybrid cloud, but this is like being billed as the first multicloud conference. A lot of technical people here. >> Lots of. >> Lot of industry insiders setting the foundation is one theme I'm hearing and then the other theme is data. >> Yeah. >> These are the two dynamics. What's your take on this multicloud conference opportunity? >> Look, I think it's really interesting, it reflects kind of what's happening. Multicloud's becoming a reality, more and more people are, whether they like it or not, are actually using multiple vendors and they're trying to figure it out so I think it's great that we are now a forum, I mean there are likely to be more. We're doing one of the Atlanta Gitlab at the next KubeCon which is kind of cool. But you know so getting all the right people in here, focusing on the data problem. Where we look at from a universal control plain standpoint. There are lots of people here talking about the economics of this and what it means for venture capital in the next five years and what it means for acquisition patterns and NMA. There are lots of really interesting aspects being covered today. >> Yeah it's a classic inaugural conference where with the organic communities here you have a range of personas. Entrepreneurs, founder, executive, venture capitalists, all kind of having those candid conversations. What to do next. >> That's right. >> Kind of all ger multiclouds here. Questions is, what's it going to be? >> What's it going to be. Well I think I was trying to figure that out. Honestly, anything that makes it easy for enterprises to do this massive lifting and shifting of infrastructure and being able to control their data, deal with multiple vendors, the world is increasingly heterogeneous. That's another way of saying multicloud is just dealing with the heterogeneity. And it's going to be more and more heterogeneous because if you look at the trends, it's hard to imagine that all innovation is going to come out of one cloud company. Right. So if that's not the case then you have people innovating, people creating all sorts of new platforms and infrastructure. Ways of dealing with data, ways of dealing with networking. Or ways of dealing with storage. Data bases and everything else. Now that you've got this innovation happening, whether it's open source communities or not. And then as an enterprise user, I want to consume it, well I have to deal with the heterogeneity. How do I consume it? How do I bring it together? How do I make sense of it? How do I get it all secured? How do I get it all under my compliance department? Those are the opportunities that are on multicloud and it is a reality. So at some level I'd be hard pressed to find someone that says I'm using Amazon or Google or Azure only and not say using a boutique cloud or another service or something else. Everybody's got some set of services that are... >> I mean multicloud and multivendor are two words that you go back to the history of the computer industry >> That's right. multivendor is a heterogeneous environment. There's benefits of that. But all that was based upon the lock-in fear. And you'll be hearing some of that here. So what's your view of lock-in because if value creation is the lock-in, the red hat guys giving a talk about Wal-Mart cloud versus niche clouds, it's all open source so where's the lock-in? >> Yeah I don't know if I would subscribe to this as solving the lock-in problem and every time you use a vendor at some level you're kind of relying on them. If they have a good service you're kind of tied to them right? But the more interesting aspect to me is having a choice. So being able to say I'm going to pick the best data based vendor out there. One that suits my problem and being able to do that without having to let go of the integration aspect of us. If I have to choose a data based SaaS service that I really like but the cost of doing that involves me creating a new vendor or doing some custom automation, custom integration, figuring out monitoring, figuring out logging doing billing, doing metering. All of that stuff so that I can actually just consume one amazing service. That's a really large hurdle to kind of step over. And so, I think part of multicloud is reducing friction for being able to use things that you choose to. >> Do you have any commentary or advice for other founders or other CEOs or even any younger developers because we have a classical trained software developers, they think a certain way. They either were pipe lining it different, not doing Agile, their trained at Agile, but now micro service is a whole nother ballgame. How do you get people to think microservices when they've been classically trained Agile. >> Like Waterfall you're saying? >> Or Waterfall, both, both. >> I think there's a lot happening right now. I would start with looking at some of the best practices around building modern services. Things like Kubernetes and others help. Microservice adoption and all that stuff. But start with, honestly starting with a bunch of open sources probably not a bad place to be. But then find vendors that actually can support in one what you want to do. >> Final question. Tell us about your company. What's going on with you guys. Give an update on Upbound. What's going on? It's going great. We're growing. We launched this project called Crossplain. Like earlier or late last year. It's doing great. We're getting a ton of adoption on it. We're super happy with it. And we're growing the company. We're almost tripled the company this year. Which is fantastic. And working on a SaaS offering that we're exciting about. Hopefully we'll come back here and talk about it when it's... >> And you guys hiring? Looking for people? What's the update there? >> We are. We're hiring on the engineering side, we're hiring on the product side. It's start up so. You never stop hiring. >> Not for the faint of heart. >> Definitely not. >> Bassam, thanks for coming out. >> Yeah absolutely. Always fun. >> Here at the multicloud inaugural event. Escape. Here in New York City. Escape 2019 I'm John Furrier with theCube. Back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE, Covering Escape/19. >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural Multi-Cloud Conference called Escape/2019 as in gathering of industry thought leaders, experts, entrepreneurs, engineers, really having substantive conversations around what multi-cloud is, what it's going to look like, what are some of the thing, technical and business opportunities around that, really small intimate conference. Again first inaugural conference. I'm here with my next guest to talk about that Chris Smith, Vice President of Engineering, on Data Science at Ticketmaster. Chris, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much Don. >> Appreciate taking the time. >> Glad to talk to you. >> Practitioner out there, you know, we all go scar tissue. >> Yes we do. >> If you don't have scar tissue, if you're not breaking things and then the learning from it then you're not advancing. But sometimes you don't want to step too far forward right? >> Yep, yep. >> Can you get back it's like you know. So you guys have a great experience. Legacy business, I remember buying tickets when I was going to conference back in the day when I was in, you know, in college. >> Yep. >> Buy it at Ticketmaster. >> That's right, that was Ticketmaster then, Ticketmaster now. >> Now it's lot of online provisioning of all direct to consumer. So you guys are a journey, tell the story. >> Well certainly, the company Ticketmaster, has had an incredibly long journey, starting back our first concert was Electric Light Orchestra which kind of like puts that in in context. >> (laughs) I was in eighth grade, '79. >> Yeah, yeah that was back at ASU. And even then we were a very innovative technology company we were making ticketing platforms that performed better, got more capacity out of the hardware than anybody else could do, anything close to that. We were really pioneered that idea of the what was at the time called the electronic ticket. Which was the idea that, you know, you could go to any store that was selling tickets for an event and the same inventory would be available at each store instead of the old model of a bunch of tickets getting sent out to each place >> That was bad-ass back in the day. >> That was really cutting edge and we've been evolving ever since then for 40 years. We were also very early onto the web scene. We were selling tickets online before anybody else was and before most people were selling anything online really to a degree. So we've been pioneers in a lot of areas, we see ourselves as the technology partner for the live events business. That's really what we are. And as a consequence, we're always sitting on that edge right? Trying to innovate and move to new opportunities but at the same time trying to provide that quality of experience at scale. >> Yeah. >> That is so critical to the business. >> And there's a big business so it's not like it's your nimble start up but you got to be agile. What are the learnings? Take us through the cloud learnings as you guys pioneered and started to go into that pioneering mode which was okay, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what a cloud's going to do. So you guys probably said hey, we got to go look at this, let's go pioneer our impact, take us through that what happened? >> Yeah absolutely, and I think there's two interesting contexts that started that conversation right? One was we're one of the few online businesses that launches a denial of services attack against itself on a regular basis, basically every day, right? And so we have traffic patterns that are unusual even for a typical e-commerce site where we might see loads that are a hundred x, you know beginning of a Taylor Swift on sale. There's going to be traffic like no one's business. And then when all her tickets are sold, there's not going to be nearly as much traffic right? And so that is the nature of our business and cloud is very attractive for its elastic capacity. When we were running on prim, we have to provide all that capacity all the time, just to have it for that one peak moment that might literally be the highest traffic level we see all year, right? So that drew a lot of the interest in looking at the cloud in the first place. And then the other aspect was we'd been working on, you know we'd been running on prim for nearly 40 years at the time and there is a lot of technical debt that had accumulated in the system at that point. And so, there was an interest in maybe potentially being able to leverage cloud vendors' infrastructure, and migrate systems onto that and then sort of declare bankruptcy on some of that technical debt rather than trying to pay it off. And so that, those were the two thoughts that were driving that conversation. I think we got really excited by the possibility and we committed really heavily to the idea of a strategy of just moving aggressively into the cloud as fast as we possibly could. And we knew that in the process, that we would be breaking some things, we'd be you know discovering some challenges et cetera, and that's definitely what happened, right? >> (laughs) What was the big learning? >> I think the biggest learning was that, you know, we had been developing systems for decades literally, with our on prim environment and so the systems were actually very well tuned for that on prim environment and that on prim environment was very well tuned for them. >> Yeah, yeah exactly. >> And it clouds use-- >> On all levels, hardware, software. >> Yeah, all the way through 'cause it's a fully integrated, vertically integrated solution. We build a lot of this stuff custom ourselves. >> John: Yeah, and we would decompose all that. >> And so it was very difficult to migrate some parts of that to the cloud and more importantly we're pretty smart guys, we can figure out how to move stuff into the cloud. But then to do it in a cost effective manner. Required in a lot of cases, really dramatically changing the design and architecture even of the software at a pretty fundamental level that you just can't do overnight. And so ironically, you know, the technical debt that we had in our infrastructure didn't seem quite so huge once you start thinking about the technical debt of the entire stack, right? And so then we realized that we could be much more strategic about how we went after our cloud strategy and that's kind of where we are now. Where we are being smart about, there's a lot of new products that are being developed, that, you know, we can build from the get go with the idea of them being designed for the cloud. >> Cloud native. >> Exactly, so we have a lot of stuff like that, that's just being built, in fact, the bulk of our website now when you go to visit it as a consumer, the bulk of that is running in the cloud right now. But, there are some really critical systems that are core to that experience, that are still running on prim. >> So you guys had to essentially re-architect the operating environment to take into account hybrid operating. >> Yes. >> Decoupling the critical systems that can't be tampered with, maybe put some containers of Kubernetes move some services around. But for the most part treat Cloud Native as Cloud Native, Greenfield apps and nurture-- >> Yeah but there's also refactoring opportunities. So there's a lot of opportunities where you need to go in and change the product anyway and that can be an opportunity to make things a lot more cloud friendly and better take advantage of the capabilities that the cloud has, so it's actually a mix of both. >> Give an example of a good opportunity to refactory, 'cause this comes up a lot in my CUBE interviews. Like okay, 'cause it's all opportunity, opportunistic, but what are the characteristics for a great refactoring opportunity the tune up? >> So a lot of times when you want to refactor really what you want to do is take a set of capabilities that you may have in a much larger system and pull 'em out and manipulate them and play around with them and do things differently. So, our ticket purchasing process we're constantly looking at tweaking the process. Now the core pieces of it remain the same right? But we might want to change the experience and provide something more innovative that's different from what people used to do. And so one of the areas we're working on for this as an example is reserve-less checkout. Where you just buy the ticket without ever actually reserving the seat. That's a very small minor change in the flow, but to make that really work you have to pull out the pieces of the system anyway right? And grab, say I want these four pieces to rearrange differently, so that's a great refactoring opportunity. You can make all those pieces, what we actually did is we've made those pieces into lambdas that are sitting in AWS, they're basically not running most of the time which is great. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Really cheap when it's not running right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Very efficient. But then when we need them they run very efficiently and more importantly we can now manipulate the order of operations for this stuff. So breaking things out into those composable parts whenever you know you need to do that anyway, it's a great opportunity to change it. >> So great for work flow refactoring there. >> Absolutely. >> Final question for you, I know we got to break for lunch, but, then really appreciate you coming and sharing your insight. >> Absolutely. >> As a pioneer in data science and data you got machine learning certainly is the engine of AI. AI gets math and cognition are kind of coming into it. Learning machines, deep learning, bla bla bla, what's your, in your opinion, what are some pioneering areas that are ripe pioneering grounds to dig into in data science and data? When you think about CloudScale, Hybrid and just, in general what are the ripe opportunities for people to pioneer in daily. What's the next frontier in your mind? >> So I think the trend right now that's maybe not the frontier, but it's now where the main shift is, is to moving into what I would call real time learning, right? Where you're doing refactor, reinforcement learning, or online learning of some form. Where you're literally, the data's arriving in real time, transforming your model in real time, learning in real time, that's key to our strategy and it's very very common. But I think in terms of where the frontiers are it's actually kind of everywhere, in the sense that the name of the game is the cost of doing that work is getting lower and lower. You know, data's getting cheaper, computes' getting cheaper, and also the products for doing it are getting more productized, so you need less expertise and you can deploy them more quickly. So what you want to look at is businesses that are traditionally been too low margin right? To apply machine learning to but have large scale, right? Which is like the commodity, everything in that's commoditized, right? Now there's an opportunity to, there's the cost have gone so low-- >> To squeeze insight out of those areas. >> That you can now optimize that small margin and get value from it with you know, otherwise like 10 years ago it would have been so costly to build a machine learning infrastructure for it. You would've lost more money than you would've gained. >> So you could, what your saying is, these areas that were not attractive because of cost in the past, that have large scale, there's penetration opportunities to create value and insight that could-- >> Absolutely. >> Bring in new franchises and new capabilities. >> And that's why I think you know the Andreessen's software's eating the world thing, that's what that's really about is as those costs get lower, as the ability to deploy gets easier, suddenly businesses that before didn't make any sense to invest in this way, they totally make sense and in fact there's huge opportunities to completely transform the landscape by getting in. >> Chris you're a man of our world, we love you, thank you for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> That's great insight. >> Look at this we're getting insider on the future of data, which I believe everything that he just said is totally relevant. You're an entrepreneur out there, you can attack big markets and get in there with a position with great IP, great intellectual property, again this is the modern world of computer science. >> It is. >> Don't ya think? >> It absolutely is. >> This is the benefit of scale and cloud. >> Absolutely. >> I wish I was 20 something years old again. (laughs) We've been through the ringer. >> Yes. >> Chris, thanks for coming on. Keep coverage here in New York for the first inaugural conference, Escape/2019, I'm John Furrier here, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From New York, it's The Cube. Covering ESCAPE/19. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to The Cube coverage New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference. The first one ever in the industry. It's called Escape 2019. We're in New York so escaping from New York, escaping from cloud, that's the conversation. All the thought leaders are here and executives. People thinking about the next generation architecture and talk tracks are all here. Fritz Wetschnig who's the Chief Information Security Officer for Flextronics. >> Flex, yes. >> Flex, thank you for coming on. Love to have CISOs on because security seems to be always the top conversation. You got a very busy job. >> I do yes. (laughing) >> You're under a lot of pressure all the time >> It's fun, it's still fun for me. So, yeah, a CISO, it's always like security's top in mind, right, of everyone now these days. But it's still one of the most interesting jobs. The most interesting for my job is, I learn so much about our business and to have insight into so many things that's actually really great. >> You know, one of the things I was just talking about on a Cube conversation was, you know, how data is a really important part of it and how data backup and recovery was built on old thinking around, you know, data centers failing, floods, hurricanes, electricity gets outages, but the biggest disruption in business today is security, security threats and so that's cybersecurity pressure is causing CISOs to be mindful of the best architecture the best platform. Do we have the right tools? So I want to get your thoughts. How are you thinking about that as an organization, because are you building in-house developers? Are you, how are you organizing, how are you gearing up to fight the battles that need to be fought? >> So, I am with the company, So Flex is a big manufacturing company, right. 26 billion, so we have a lot of P2P business not consumer business, which is I believe a different perspective of security versus actually like a consumer company facing, so and I'm in a security team for 15 years, so we built it up like security operations and all those kind of things we do, right. >> You're old school. >> I am old school learned everything and that, right? >> But you're lot are IOT, I mean, you're Industrial IOT. >> Oh yeah, Industrial IOT it's one of the topics but coming back to you, you're right, data is actually the center even for our business, data is getting more and more center, right. You collect data from the machine, you collect data actually for the business actually to do make more decisions, right. And it could be predictive maintenance, could be inventory management. There could be a lot of things, right. You have to think about it. So, and the funny thing is, I'm real, I'm the CISO now for 5 years, 15 years with the security team, 20 years with the company, So I rebuilt the team always like every three, four years like as a kind of rebirth of the team. We renew, we add new skills, right. And cloud is one of the things, which I think it's a fundamental change and the change is actually, it's actually on the development side. What it means with that is the security team has to move to serve the developers. And the problem with the old school was always like it's afterthought. So why is security such an issue? Because we had to do patching after we found vulnerabilities, right. And then old network is not secure you need to wrap something around it like we did firewalls. So it was always an afterthought. Now with the cloud, it's changing because you have a lot of different things to do but basically we need to enable developers to be very quick and deploy their software very quickly, so I think it's a fundamental change in the way you have to think about security. >> And yeah, that brings up the good question I would love to ask you 'cause you've given, again you're not a consumer, like Capital One with in-house, they had their own channel, they weren't hacked. Amazon, actually the firewall was misconfigured, on an SV Bucket but that's a consumer company. You have data though, you're an industrial company, got a lot of industrial IOT. Ransomware folks are targeting data. >> Yes. >> And everyone's a target. Your service area is large. But you probably lock that down in the past. So how are you thinking about all this new stuff? >> So yeah, I mean, IOT it's, I mean, IOT's a problem, as you said, the industrial right. And it's not solved yet completely, right. Because they still have to rethink a lot of the vendors providing this machinery, which you purchase for twenty five, thirty years, right. They still are old school, right, sometimes, like, the one on Windows you can't upgrade or whatever. So it's basic things they're lacking actually in terms of security. There's still, has to be a shift in this, not just in industry but in a general thinking, how you do that. Yes, I have a big environment, so we locked it down, we use a lot of innovative technologies, actually preventive measurements plus also detective measurements. And you need to create kind of mightily a concept where you actually start, okay, what is if this fails? How we test it? Okay, this fails, do we have other measurements where we can try to prevent, stop those kind of things, right. But ransom is a big one. There's other things, as you know, like hacking, I mean, like Capitol One. >> Malware's a big problem. >> The Capital One was an interesting one in my belief and that's for the cloud is configuration issues, right, which I think it comes with cloud security. It's about policy and configuration management, right. How you manage that and how you think about it, but it's not, it's was not that. >> Automation could have solve that, I mean, that's an open S3 bucket, that's trivial. It wasn't a big, technical. >> Yes and no, if you look at that it was a little bit more in detail, >> Okay. >> So it was actually, their back firewall was misconfigured, which is about security running on a back check, but the misconfiguration was actually is, as (mumbles) force request issue, which means, like, you tricked this firewall into giving you information you shouldn't give information, right. >> John: Okay, so it was a little bit more. So, it was a little bit more granular as people think it was, right. Just as 3-pocket configuration. So it was a little bit more granular, but I think that's the really difficultly comes about whichever security. It's a complex program, right. It's mainly things you have. >> But it was a configuration error? >> It was a configuration. >> It wasn't as dumb as an S3 bucket. >> No, it wasn't dumb. >> But it was a bit more sophisticated, but not that sophisticated, was it? On a scale of 1 to 10. >> It was not sophisticated, but something, it's not easy to solve. So you have to think about it, but you're right, it's still something. >> John: It's an exploit from a corner case. >> Yeah, it's still something you could have. I mean, I'm careful to say you could have avoided it, yes you could, because that's for sure, but I know it's a complex environment, right. >> It's a human, there's humans involved. >> And I don't know the details exactly, we only know that what was published, right, so it's very hard to check. >> Well, it brings up cloud security, so let me ask you, on multi-cloud, this is a multi-cloud conference. What's your definition of multi-cloud? How do you look at the multiple-clouds? >> For me, multiple-cloud is, actually it doesn't matter. We had a good keynote words, it's a bunch of servers, right. That's how I see multi-cloud. It's a bunch of servers. Could be my data centers in a public cloud data centers with different vendors, that's what a cloud is. Where I move my services should be actually independent from the public hyper on premise, whatever it is, right. That's basically how I see it. >> So it doesn't matter, it's infrastructure. >> Yeah. >> On demand, leverage it. >> Leverage it, it could be say, hey today, I spin of this test server, but you know what, today it seems to be a bit cheaper running on (mumbles) verses GBC, let's do it here. Next day, next week we might do it somewhere else, whatever you trigger, whatever what is your requirements. >> So if going to look at that resource at like that, how do you think about the cloud security then, because the configurations, compliance, how do you, how do you stay on top of that? >> So, that's an interesting thing because we have begun to prioritize but we, as you said, no consumer business, so our problem is to find the right skill set, to attract the right people to our company to do that right because this is our, we have some cloud, but it's not yet, there's a journey we are trying to do, as most of the enterprise, so we're looking into startups, manage services, We say, okay what are gaps that we have to maybe have to outsource some of the things and gaps where we need to get internal source of supply. >> What's you're advice to other CISOs out there that are in the B2B space of don't have to deal with the consumer but have to get serious, that is now becoming more industrialized on the IOT side because you guys have been, you know, been there, done that, you have a big footprint on the IOT, 'cause you have a history. But as people get more facilities and they have more virtual offices, more people working, the edge is extending. What's your advice to those CISOs who have to deal with this industrial end IOT edge? >> I think you have to, visibility is the key ingredient is first, right. If you don't know what you have, it's very hard to understand what's a risk portfolio, right. So, you need to find the right toolset, and don't believe you know what you have. It's fantastic what you see when you use the right tool what distance everything is connected. I mean, basically even, like, I found like, this coffee mug, you know. I connect it to devices, right. It's like, not like everyone, not just that they don't understand my coffee mug is connected to (laughing). >> That light bulb's got multithreaded processor. What is that doing? >> So, so there's concerns, I may, but visibility is a key ingredient you have to understand. And then you have to look into how you mitigate a risk. What is a risk about it, right. I mean, if the government goes down, I don't really care, but if my testos goes down and does shut down the production, I really care about that. So you need to understand that the risk and say, how can I mitigate the risk? >> So while I got you here, what's you final question? What's your message to suppliers out there that all want to sell you something? Want to sell you another tool, you know. Want another tool? You know, I got a platform. I got a tool. Buy from me. >> You mean, to sell 750 watches (drowned out by laughter) If you go to ISA conferences, unbelievable, right. >> I want to sell you something. You're the top dog, I promise. >> Don't send me an email. >> Don't send them an email. Are you shrinking suppliers down? Are you looking at some kind of standard API way to deal with them? >> Yes. >> Because, you know, you're probably thinking about platforming, and date of visibility's critical. >> Yes. >> What's you philosophy on how to support video suppliers? >> So usually, honestly, the most time I really go it so for in the weight of technology we built in our company is called the Strategic Partnership Program where we can get for startups, and most of the time we engage, we startups overseas, or as through other channels, right. Where you get introduced, and you review, with the proof of work concept or value, the technology, and we try to keep it like a mini product, very short time, and say, okay, let's show what you can, where your gaps are, and can we get with you guys and can we get you. But don't send me an email, don't call me because I usually not react. I have a job to do. (laughing) >> Yeah, exactly. >> So that's most of the time, whatever we sees, what comes or if, a guy said hey, I found another CISOs tell me there's great technology, you should leap into that. >> And what shows do you go to? What events do you hang out in? What are good events for you in the space, RSA, Red Hat, Black Defcon? Are there certain events you go to that you think are valuable? >> I mean, as a CISO, I go to the RSA Conference, which I should because it's actually very close to me as well, and being part, being out of San Jose, I recommend the BSides, actually. I like the BSides. >> John: The BSides are great. >> The BSides are great. I think they are real, really. And then I try to smaller circles, right. We have our personal round tables. >> BSides for folks watching is an alternative group of community, industry participants, they have kind of a B-side, an A-side, like an album. But it's such a community event. They do hacker funds and a variety of other cool things where people get together, very unstructured kind of, cool conference, in addition to bigger conferences. >> I can recommend this. >> Yeah, awesome. Fritz, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. >> Thanks. >> Been a pleasure. The Cube coverage in New York City, we're not escaping from New York but this is the Escape Conference, the first multi-cloud conference in the industry, we'll see how it goes. If they're successful, they might be back next year. If not, they won't be. But I think multi-cloud's going to stay. What do you think? >> I am think so too, yes. >> Okay, Fritz, thanks for coming on. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> [Disembodied Voice] From New York, it's the cube. Covering escape 19. >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage here in New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference called Escape 2019. This is a conference dedicated, first conference dedicated to conversations and content and people around the trend of multi-cloud, which I've been critical of, I've called BS in the past. But it is multi-vendor it's developing and the architecture for true multi-cloud is on the horizon. Where well, we will be relevant. Our next guest is Daniel Wall, senior Distinguished Engineer at Red Hat, working on a lot of the technology around what Kubernetes and containers is create a lot of buzz around and that is the abstraction layer around working across clouds. Daniel, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you for having me. >> I'm sure I butchered what you do, but I know you make a lot of tools. You make containers work. Talk about your role at Red Hat real quick. >> So my role at Red Hat is I am the technical lead of container technology, everything basically underneath Kubernetes main projects over the last few years is to look at what Docker did and then split them into individual tasks. I believe that Docker should be broken into four different main tasks move and container images around playing with containers, building container images, and running containers in production. And then we can run different security realms around each one of them. So we have tools to do that a Scopio, Podman build, and CRI-O is the one we use for Kubernetes. >> And how's it going? Good? >> It's going great. Yeah, we're getting great up. A lot of community support. A lot of people are really excited about some of the security features for so you can run full containers where you traditionally would do a darker you can run a totally non routes and much more secure. >> Well, I'm really interested in your talk you're giving here because the folks that follow The Cube know some of my tirades I've been on the past. I've been saying for a long time that there's been a very non-selection of clouds outside the big three, >> Right. >> And you had a power law that has, know who the big guys and a long tail of people creating their own little niche services. But income, the essentials and the global size and channel part is people using cloud. We have a video cloud, we're building more and more clouds for our media business. This, I was talking about the rise of these new clouds right?. >> Right. >> You're actually put some structure around this around, You're talking about Walmart clouds and niche clouds. Could you explain so this is really important. I want you to take some time to explain that. >> Okay, so my talk today I call it the Walmart clouds, although the analogy is when Walmart first started showing up in the United States and different areas, all of the department stores basically went out of business because Walmart was able to out-commoditize everything in the universe. And so, all these major vendors, district department stores went out of business. The one thing that didn't go out of business was sort of like specialty stores. So, I always kid around and say my wife has me every weekend sitting out front of these specialty stores that she loves to stop shop at. So if I look at the way the clouds have happened is basically most people say there's three major clouds, although I think they ignore one. So you look at Amazon, you have Google and you have Microsoft Azure, although I think Alibaba is going to become important in the future. And I call those the Walmart clouds, because basically, their whole goal is to commoditize and get rid of all the other, >> And scale up and provide more and more departments more services, >> But basically it they will always be rushing to get to the cheapest price. But there were a bunch of other cloud vendors out of the specialty cloud vendors like you talking about the Cube one, you this might be the best one to do in video. So I might want to put part of my workload in the Microsoft cloud or the Amazon cloud to get the cheapest price but I want to run certain certain workloads inside the U.S. We look at another example that is Nvidia right? and there's the Nvidia cloud and they might put the best GPUs in there. And you might want to do your machine learning your AI technologies might want to go in there because they might work better. IBM, who obviously bought Red Hat, but but IBM, you look at what they're doing in their cloud, they can have power series, they can have, mainframe workload z series. They might even have, some of their future, super duper computers type things in it. And then you have Oracle and Oracle would have database, they're probably going to do databases, they've massive database technologies inside of their cloud. So when you really >> Well, they think they're one of the big clouds. But they're not. >> They do. >> But their specialty Database Cloud. >> Basically, I believe that they are. I believe IBM, I think all of them are niche, especially clouds. But the bottom line is you need an API to move between these clouds so you can put workloads in different instances. And I believe that the Walmart clouds the the AWS and Microsoft and Google, their whole goal is to get you into their cloud. They might talk a little bit about on prem cloud and supporting your data centers. But their real goal is to get you off your data centers into their cloud, so they can start making money. They won't have no interest in supporting these, sort of the specialty cloud vendors. But if you look at open shift, which Kubernetes, from Red Hat, our goal is to basically make moving your cloud instances around and keep commodity and stability and move to clouds around. >> Let's take it through a working example. So there's couples and use cases that I see happening, I want to get your reaction. One is our cloud. We're (mutters intelligibly) which we do have. It's coming out. It's on Amazon. So we were small, self funded, company growing having fun. We're building on Amazon. We don't do any work in Azure our solutions on Amazon. Another use case might be a vendor that says hey I have proprietary software, I'm going to stand up my own cloud infrastructure and do all that and build it from the ground up. Is there a difference between the two? Because one is co-locating essentially on Amazon. leveraging the cheap commodity, but building differentiated niche on top of it, versus the standing up a full cloud? >> Well, what I would argue, first of all is is I would want you are your cloud, the one that you're saying is in say, Amazon, it what is the chance of you guys basically getting an offer from Azure to a nickel less per hour. >> Pretty high!(laughs amusingly) >> To be able to move your cloud over, >> It might be high. >> And the problem I would see is if your cloud inside of Amazon cloud starts to take advantage of Amazon's features, then all of a sudden it gets harder and harder for you. the cost of moving off is going to get harder and harder. If you use open source solutions, pure open source and not tied to individual cloud vendors. Then it would become much easier for you to move around. So you could take advantage of, commodity, right? And that you mean, another analogy I use with the big cloud vendors is Hansel and Gretel right. They all want you to come on in and come on in have some of our candy, have some our candy. And next thing you know, you're inside the cage. And, you know, but if you stick to open source, right, this is in a lot of ways the major cloud vendors is a major threat to open source, and that they're trying to lock everybody in right there. We lost it. >> Okay so what's the path? So I told it, by the way, I'm getting what your saying. So I say great I'll take advantage of the cheap I as the infrastructure service layer. But then what an open source toy usually open shift, I still got to build my app, I got to still host it. >> Right. So you build you build your app on top of it. So let me define what open shift is. And so open shift is basically Red Hat's enterprise version of Kubernetes. So if you look at Kubernetes, Kubernetes in some ways is just a higher level distribution of software. So when when Red Hats got into Linux business, there were lots and lots of Linux distributions. And what Red Hat did is they picked a whole kernel and a whole bunch of packages and joined them together and created a distribution that everybody could agree on and build on. So with open shift we're doing is we're taking Kubernetes, but there's a whole bunch of CNCF projects, and we're joining them all together and then testing them and making enterprise so that ready. But really Kubernetes is the key factor here in that if you build everything Kubernetes you CNCF open source projects, for your, save your storage, put it on staff, so Gloucester, one of the network based file systems in the open source world, instead of diving directly into Amazon, now you have the flexibility to be able to get out of the- >> So here's an Architectural question. So I got to ask you as multi-cloud conversation starts to heat up, and by the way, I think people have multiple clouds. It's just not multi-clouding. Right, right, right. Yeah, but it's coming. So architecturally what do someone have to think about architecturally for multi cloud? What's in the mind of the technical architect out there? >> What's on them? What are they should be thinking about from an architecture because you don't want to forclose the future. But I also want to get the best what I can get today from the clouds. >> I mean, I keep keep on hammering on it, but stick to the open source projects to do this as the CNCF projects just to allow you flexibility. A lot of it, the real problem with a lot of this technology right now is it's developing so fast. I mean, I think we have a Kubernetes version every two weeks, it seems at least in my team and see it feels like it. >> So you think Red Hat's of good vendor for the supplier for that person. >> Obviously >> Yeah you know some stuff is hard to deal with so it (mutters) look I'm so busy, these guys, I'm trying to get the transformation going. I don't have time to keep track of what's going on in CNCF. >> Yeah, well, we're a co worker of mine talks about your Red Hat and open shift is a plumbing tool or an electric we're building the foundation of your house and we put the electrical systems and the plumbing empties into your house, but we still need applications to run so we need you you need a toast or you need a toilet, you need a sink. And the applications and one of the one of the differences between Red hat and sort of the cloud vendors is we try not to get into the product, the lab and product business. So we want to support open source projects and other products running in our environment. If you compare that to running inside a cloud, you know if you become incredibly successful inside of Amazon, your video cloud business wants to prevent Amazon to say, oh, we'll just do video will steal everything they're doing and all a sudden we'll do the video inside of Amazon and then put your your cloud out of business. And, your only option then is now you're competing Amazon in Amazon against Amazon. How do you get out of Amazon >> That's called 3D chess.I think. Or maybe 4D chess. >> So if you you know My point being if you have an opportunity to get out and compete against Amazon say on Microsoft compete on your local compete on one of the niche clouds So any vendor that basically ties totally to Amazon, >> This is this is absolutely why I'm here because I believe multi-vendor, that was the buzzword in the 80s and 90s. Is everyone wants to they want to homogeneous they want a heterogeneous network. So multi-vendor will be around multi-cloud has to survive, it will survive. But right now we are in the foundational stages. The second interview, he has talked about plumbing and streets, and that's what we're at. So I guess the final question for you is, as we're setting the foundational infrastructure for multi-cloud, what's the big takeaway that you see that you could share? You mentioned get involved in open source what specifically architecturally should should folks think about in terms of foundational. >> I think, look at what the CNCF that cloud cloud native foundation is doing for open source projects, depends on what level you want to come in. And the bottom line is, built on top of Kubernetes use open standards to do it. Don't fall for the Hansel and Gretel effect of eating the candy because you will find yourself in a cage. >> Well, multi cloud is arrived and it's being thought through by industry leaders from entrepreneurs. We just had the former CEO of Sierra on, now running AVA trace, industry veteran, lot of tech chops in here, laying down the lines, if you will. A lot of good stuff Kubernetes is a key part of the containers. >> Okay, huge part of it. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thanks for sharing the insights here on The Cube. We're in New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference Escape 19. I'm John Furrier back with more after this short break (pulsating music) (pulsating music)