>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson, day four of MWC '23. Show's winding down a little bit, but it's still pretty packed here. Lot of innovation, planes, trains, automobiles, and we're talking 5G all week, private networks, connected breweries. It's super exciting. Really happy to have Warren Jackson here as the Edge Gateway Product Technologist at Dell Technologies, and Scott Waller, the CTO of the 5G Open Innovation Lab. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Really interesting stories that we're going to talk about. Let's start, Scott, with you, what is the Open Innovation Lab? >> So it was hatched three years ago. Ideated about a bunch of guys from Microsoft who ran startup ventures program, started the developers program over at Microsoft, if you're familiar with MSDN. And they came three years ago and said, how does CSPs working with someone like T-Mobile who's in our backyard, I'm from Seattle. How do they monetize the edge? You need a developer ecosystem of applications and use cases. That's always been the thing. The carriers are building the networks, but where's the ecosystem of startups? So we built a startup ecosystem that is sponsored by partners, Dell being one sponsor, Intel, Microsoft, VMware, Aspirant, you name it. The enterprise folks who are also in the connectivity business. And with that, we're not like a Y Combinator or a Techstars where it's investment first and it's all about funding. It's all about getting introductions from a startup who might have a VR or AI type of application or observability for 5G slicing, and bring that in front of the Microsoft's of the world, or the Intel's and the Dell's of the world that they might not have the capabilities to do it because they're still a small little startup with an MVP. So we really incubate. We're the connectors and build a network. We've had 101 startups over the last three years. They've raised over a billion dollars. And it's really valuable to our partners like T-Mobile and Dell, et cetera, where we're bringing in folks like Expedo and GenXComm and Firecell. Start up private companies that are around here they were cohorts from our program in the past. >> That's awesome because I've often, I mean, I've seen Dell get into this business and I'm like, wow, they've done a really good job of finding these guys. I wonder what the pipeline is. >> We're trying to create the pipeline for the entire industry, whether it's 5G on the edge for the CSPs, or it's for private enterprise networks. >> Warren, what's this cool little thing you got here? >> Yeah, so this is very unique in the Dell portfolio. So when people think of Dell, they think of servers laptops, et cetera. But what this does is it's designed to be deployed at the edge in harsh environments and it allows customers to do analytics, data collection at the edge. And what's unique about it is it's got an extended temperature range. There's no fan in this and there's lots of ports on it for data ingestion. So this is a smaller box Edge Gateway 3200. This is the product that we're using in the brewery. And then we have a bigger brother of this, the Edge Gateway 5200. So the value of it, you can scale depending on what your edge compute requirements are at the edge. >> So tell us about the brewery story. And you covered it, I know you were in the Dell booth, but it's basically an analog brewery. They're taking measurements and temperatures and then writing it down and then entering it in and somebody from your company saw it and said, "We can help you with this problem." Explain the story. >> Yeah, so Scott and I did a walkthrough of the brewery back in November timeframe. >> It's in Framingham, Mass. >> Framingham, Mass, correct. And basically, we talked to him, and we said, what keeps you guys up at night? What's a problem that we can solve? Very simple, a kind of a lower budget, didn't have a lot money to spend on it, but what problem can we solve that will realize great benefit for you? So we looked at their fermentation process, which was completely analog. Somebody was walking around with a clipboard looking at analog gauges. And what we did is we digitized that process. So what this did for them rather than being completely reactive, and by the time they realized there was something going wrong with the fermentation process, it's too late. A batch of scrap. This allowed them to be proactive. So anytime, anywhere on the tablet or a phone, they can see if that fermentation process is going out of range and do something about it before the batch gets scrapped. >> Okay. Amazing. And Scott, you got a picture of this workflow here? >> Yeah, actually this is the final product. >> Explain that. >> As Warren mentioned, the data is actually residing in the industrial side of the network So we wanted to keep the IT/OT separation, which is critical on the factory floor. And so all the data is brought in from the sensors via digital connection once it's converted and into the edge gateway. Then there's a snapshot of it using Telit deviceWISE, their dashboarding application, that is decoding all the digital readings, putting them in a nice dashboard. And then when we gave them, we realized another problem was they're using cheap little Chromebooks that they spill beer on once a week and throw them out. That's why they bought the cheap ones 'cause they go through them so fast. So we got a Dell Latitude Rugged notebook. This is a brand new tablet, but they have the dashboarding software. So no matter if they're out there on the floor, but because the data resides there on the factory they have access to be able to change the parameters. This one's in the maturation cycle. This one's in the crashing cycle where they're bringing the temperature back down, stopping the fermentation process, getting it ready to go to the canning side of the house. >> And they're doing all that from this dashboard. >> They're doing all from the dashboard. They also have a giant screen that we put up there that in the floor instead of walking a hundred yards back behind a whole bunch of machinery equipment from a safety perspective, now they just look up on the screen and go, "Oh, that's red. That's out of range." They're actually doing a bunch of cleaning and a bunch of other things right now, too. So this is real time from Boston. >> Dave: Oh okay. >> Scott: This is actually real time from Boston. >> I'm no hop master, but I'm looking at these things flashing at me and I'm thinking something's wrong with my beer. >> We literally just lit this up last week. So we're still tweaking a few things, but they're also learning around. This is a new capability they never had. Oh, we have the ability to alert and monitor at different processes with different batches, different brews, different yeast types. Then now they're also training and learning. And we're going to turn that into eventually a product that other breweries might be able to use. >> So back to the kind of nuts and bolts of the system. The device that you have here has essentially wifi antennas on the back. >> Warren: Correct. >> Pull that up again if you would, please. >> Now I've seen this, just so people are clear, there are also paddle 5G antennas that go on the other side. >> Correct. >> That's sort of the connection from the 5G network that then gets transmogrified, technical term guys, into wifi so the devices that are physically connected to the brew vats, don't know what they're called. >> Fermentation tanks. >> Fermentation tanks, thank you. Those are wifi. That's a wifi signal that's going into this. Is that correct? >> Scott: No. >> No, it's not. >> It's a hard wire. >> Okay, okay. >> But, you're right. This particular gateway. >> It could be wifi if it's hard wire. >> It could be, yes. Could be any technology really. >> This particular gateway is not outfitted with 5G, but something that was very important in this application was to isolate the IT network, which is on wifi and physically connected from the OT network, which is the 5G connection. So we're sending the data directly from the gateway up to the cloud. The two partners that we worked with on this project were ifm, big sensor manufacturer that actually did the wired sensors into an industrial network called IO-Link. So they're physically wired into the gateway and then in the gateway we have a solution from our partner Telit that has deviceWISE software that actually takes the data in, runs the analytics on it, the logic, and then visualizes that data locally on those panels and also up to their cloud, which is what we're looking at. So they can look at it locally, they're in the plant and then up in the cloud on a phone or a tablet, whatever, when they're at home. >> We're talking about a small business here. I don't know how many employees they have, but it's not thousands. And I love that you're talking about an IT network and an OT network. And so they wanted, it is very common when we talk about industrial internet of things use cases, but we're talking about a tiny business here. >> Warren: Correct. >> They wanted to separate those networks because of cost, because of contention. Explain why. >> Yeah, just because, I mean, they're running their ERP system, their payroll, all of their kind of the way they run their business on their IT network and you don't want to have the same traffic out on the factory floor on that network, so it was pretty important. And the other thing is we really, one of the things that we didn't want to do in this project is interrupt their production process at all. So we installed this entire system in two days. They didn't have to shut down, they didn't have to stop. We didn't have to interrupt their process at all. It was like we were invisible there and we spun the thing up and within two days, very simple, easy, but tremendous value for their business. >> Talk about new markets here. I mean, it's like any company that's analog that needs to go digital. It's like 99% of the companies on the planet. What are you guys seeing out there in terms of the types of examples beyond breweries? >> Yeah, I could talk to that. So I spent a lot of time over the last couple years running my own little IoT company and a lot of it being in agriculture. So like in Washington state, 70% of the world's hops is actually grown in Washington state. It's my hometown. But in the Ag producing regions, there's lack of connectivity. So there's interest in private networks because the carriers aren't necessarily deploying it. But because we have the vast amount of hops there's a lot of IPAs, a lot of hoppy IPAs that come out of Seattle. And with that, there's a ton of craft breweries that are about the same size, some are a little larger. Anheuser-Busch and InBev and Heineken they've got great IoT platforms. They've done it. They're mass scale, they have to digitize. But the smaller shops, they don't, when we talk about IT/OT separation, they're not aware of that. They think it's just, I get local broadband and I get wifi and one hotspot inside my facility and it works. So a little bit of it was the education. I have got years in IT/OT security in my background so that education and we come forward with a solution that actually does that for them. And now they're aware of it. So now when they're asking questions of other vendors that are trying to sell them some type of solution, they're inherently aware of what should be done so they're not vulnerable to ransomware attacks, et cetera. So it's known as the Purdue Model. >> Well, what should they do? >> We came in and keep it completely separated and educated them because in the end too we'll build a design guide and a starter kit out of this that other brewers can use. Because I've toured dozens of breweries in Washington, the exact same scenario, analog gauges, analog process, very manual. And in the end, when you ask the brewer, what do they want out of this? It keeps them up at night because if the temperature goes out of range, because the chiller fails, >> They ruined. >> That's $30,000 lost in beer. That's a lot to a small business. However, it's also once they start digitizing the data and to Warren's point, it's read-only. We're not changing any of the process. We augmented on top of their existing systems. We didn't change their process. But now they have the ability to look at the data and see batch to batch consistency. Quality doesn't always mean best, it means consistency from batch to batch. Every beer from exhibit A from yesterday to two months from now of the same style of beer should be the same taste, flavor, boldness, et cetera. This is giving them the insights on it. >> It's like St. Louis Buds, when we were kids. We would buy the St. Louis Buds 'cause they tasted better than the Merrimack Buds. And then Budweiser made them all the same. >> Must be an East coast thing. >> It's an old guy thing, Dave. You weren't born yet. >> I was in high school. Yeah, I was in high school. >> We like the hops. >> We weren't 21. Do me a favor, clarify OT versus IT. It's something we talk about all the time, but not everyone's familiar with that separation. Define OT for me. >> It's really the factory floor. You got IT systems that are ERP systems, billing, you're getting your emails, stuff like that. Where the ransomware usually gets infected in. The OT side is the industrial control network. >> David: What's the 'O' stand for? >> Operation. >> David: Operation? >> Yeah, the operations side. >> 'Cause some people will think objects 'cause we think internet of things. >> The industrial operations, think of it that way. >> But in a sense those are things that are connected. >> And you think of that as they are the safety systems as well. So a machine, if someone doesn't push the stop button, you'd think if there's a lot of traffic on that network, it isn't guaranteed that that stop button actually stops that blade from coming down, someone's going to lose their arm. So it's very tied to safety, reliability, low latency. It is crafted in design that it never touches the internet inherently without having to go through a security gateway which is what we did. >> You mentioned the large companies like InBev, et cetera. You're saying they're already there. Are they not part of your target market? Or are there ways that you can help them? Is this really more of a small to mid-size company? >> For this particular solution, I think so, yeah. Because the cost to entry is low. I mean, you talk about InBev, they have millions of dollars of budgets to spend on OT. So they're completely automated from top to bottom. But these little craft brewers, which they're everywhere in the US. Vermont, Washington state, they're completely manual. A lot of these guys just started in their garage. And they just scaled up and they got a cult kind of following around their beers. One thing that we found here this week, when you talk around edge and 5G and beer, those things get people excited. In our booth we're serving beer, and all these kind of topics, it brings people together. >> And it lets the little guy compete more effectively with the big giants. >> Correct. >> And how do you do more with less as the little guy is kind of the big thing and to Warren's point, we have folks come up and say, "Great, this is for beer, but what about wine? What about the fermentation process of wine?" Same materials in the end. A vessel of some sort, maybe it's stainless steel. The clamps are the same, the sensors are the same. The parameters like temperature are key in any type of fermentation. We had someone talking about olive oil and using that. It's the same sanitary beverage style equipment. We grabbed sensors that were off the shelf and then we integrated them in and used the set of platforms that we could. How do we rapidly enable these guys at the lowest possible cost with stuff that's at the shelf. And there's four different companies in the solution. >> We were having a conversation with T-Mobile a little earlier and she mentioned the idea of this sounding scary. And this is a great example of showing that in fact, at a relatively small scale, this technology makes a lot of sense. So from that perspective, of course you can implement private 5G networks at an industrial scale with tens of millions of dollars of investment. But what about all of the other things below? And that seems to be a perfect example. >> Yeah, correct. And it's one of the things with the gateway and having flexibility the way Dell did a great job of putting really good modems in it. It had a wide spectrum range of what bands they support. So being able to say, at a larger facility, I mean, if Heineken wants to deploy something like this, oh, heck yeah, they probably could do it. And they might have a private 5G network, but let's say T-Mobile offers a private offering on their public via a slice. It's easy to connect that radio to it. You just change the sims. >> Is that how the CSPs fit here? How are they monetized? >> Yeah, correct. So one of our partners is T-Mobile and so we're working with them. We've got other telco partners that are coming on board in our lab. And so we'll do the same thing. We're going to take this back and put it in the lab and offer it up as others because the baseline building blocks or Lego blocks per se can be used in a bunch of different industries. It's really that starter point of giving folks the idea of what's possible. >> So small manufacturing, agriculture you mentioned, any other sort of use cases we should tune into? >> I think it's environmental monitoring, all of that stuff, I see it in IoT deployments all over the world. Just the simple starter kits 'cause a farmer doesn't want to get sold a solution, a platform, where he's got to hire a bunch of coders and partner with the big carriers. He just wants something that works. >> Another use case that we see a lot, a high cost in a lot of these places is the cost of energy. And a lot of companies don't know what they're spending on electricity. So a very simple energy monitoring system like that, it's a really good ROI. I'm going to spend five or $10,000 on a system like this, but I'm going to save $20,000 over a year 'cause I'm able to see, have visibility into that data. That's a lot of what this story's about, just giving visibility into the process. >> It's very cool, and like you said, it gets people excited. Is it a big market? How do you size it? Is it a big TAM? >> Yeah, so one thing that Dell brings to the table in this space is people are buying their laptops, their servers and whatnot from Dell and companies are comfortable in doing business with Dell because of our model direct to customer and whatnot. So our ability to bring a device like this to the OT space and have them have that same user experience they have with laptops and our client products in a ruggedized solution like this and bring a lot of partners to the table makes it easy for our customers to implement this across all kinds of industries. >> So we're talking to billions, tens of billions. Do we know how big this market is? What's the TAM? I mean, come on, you work for Dell. You have to do a TAM analysis. >> Yes, no, yeah. I mean, it really is in the billions. The market is huge for this one. I think we just tapped into it. We're kind of focused in on the brewery piece of it and the liquor piece of it, but the possibilities are endless. >> Yeah, that's tip of the spear. Guys, great story. >> It's scalable. I think the biggest thing, just my final feedback is working and partnering with Dell is we got something as small as this edge gateway that I can run a Packet Core on and run a 5G standalone node and then have one of the small little 5G radios out there. And I've got these deployed in a farm. Give the farmer an idea of what's possible, give him a unit on his tractor, and now he can do something that, we're providing connectivity he had never had before. But as we scale up, we've got the big brother to this. When we scale up from that, we got the telco size units that we can put. So it's very scalable. It's just a great suite of offerings. >> Yeah, outstanding. Guys, thanks for sharing the story. Great to have you on theCUBE. >> Good to be with you today. >> Stop by for beer later. >> You know it. All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, we're here live at the Fira in Barcelona MWC '23 day four. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

(uplifting music) >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon, the inaugural event, in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, here in the Palo Alto Studios. We're calling it theCUBE Center. It's kind of like our Sports Center for tech. It's kind of remote coverage. We've been doing this now for a few years. We're going to amp it up this year as more events are remote, and happening all around the world. So, we're going to continue the coverage with this segment focusing on the data stack, entrepreneurial opportunities around all things security, and as, obviously, data's involved. And our next guest is a friend of theCUBE, and CUBE alumni from 2013, entrepreneur himself, turned, now, venture capitalist angel investor, with his own firm, Opher Kahane, Managing Director, Sonoma Ventures. Formerly the founder of Origami, sold to Intuit a few years back. Focusing now on having a lot of fun, angel investing on boards, focusing on data-driven applications, and stacks around that, and all the stuff going on in, really, in the wheelhouse for what's going on around security data. Opher, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. Great to be back. It's been a while. >> So you're kind of on Easy Street now. You did the entrepreneurial venture, you've worked hard. We were on together in 2013 when theCUBE just started. XCEL Partners had an event in Stanford, XCEL, and they had all the features there. We interviewed Satya Nadella, who was just a manager at Microsoft at that time, he was there. He's now the CEO of Microsoft. >> Yeah, he was. >> A lot's changed in nine years. But congratulations on your venture you sold, and you got an exit there, and now you're doing a lot of investments. I'd love to get your take, because this is really the biggest change I've seen in the past 12 years, around an inflection point around a lot of converging forces. Data, which, big data, 10 years ago, was a big part of your career, but now it's accelerated, with cloud scale. You're seeing people building scale on top of other clouds, and becoming their own cloud. You're seeing data being a big part of it. Cybersecurity kind of has not really changed much, but it's the most important thing everyone's talking about. So, developers are involved, data's involved, a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities. So I'd love to get your take on how you see the current situation, as it relates to what's gone on in the past five years or so. What's the big story? >> So, a lot of big stories, but I think a lot of it has to do with a promise of making value from data, whether it's for cybersecurity, for Fintech, for DevOps, for RevTech startups and companies. There's a lot of challenges in actually driving and monetizing the value from data with velocity. Historically, the challenge has been more around, "How do I store data at massive scale?" And then you had the big data infrastructure company, like Cloudera, and MapR, and others, deal with it from a scale perspective, from a storage perspective. Then you had a whole layer of companies that evolved to deal with, "How do I index massive scales of data, for quick querying, and federated access, et cetera?" But now that a lot of those underlying problems, if you will, have been solved, to a certain extent, although they're always being stretched, given the scale of data, and its utility is becoming more and more massive, in particular with AI use cases being very prominent right now, the next level is how to actually make value from the data. How do I manage the full lifecycle of data in complex environments, with complex organizations, complex use cases? And having seen this from the inside, with Origami Logic, as we dealt with a lot of large corporations, and post-acquisition by Intuit, and a lot of the startups I'm involved with, it's clear that we're now onto that next step. And you have fundamental new paradigms, such as data mesh, that attempt to address that complexity, and responsibly scaling access, and democratizing access in the value monetization from data, across large organizations. You have a slew of startups that are evolving to help the entire lifecycle of data, from the data engineering side of it, to the data analytics side of it, to the AI use cases side of it. And it feels like the early days, to a certain extent, of the revolution that we've seen in transition from traditional databases, to data warehouses, to cloud-based data processing, and big data. It feels like we're at the genesis of that next wave. And it's super, super exciting, for me at least, as someone who's sitting more in the coach seat, rather than being on the pitch, and building startups, helping folks as they go through those motions. >> So that's awesome. I want to get into some of these data infrastructure dynamics you mentioned, but before that, talk to the audience around what you're working on now. You've been a successful entrepreneur, you're focused on angel investing, so, super-early seed stage. What kind of deals are you looking at? What's interesting to you? What is Sonoma Ventures looking for, and what are some of the entrepreneurial dynamics that you're seeing right now, from a startup standpoint? >> Cool, so, at a macro level, this is a little bit of background of my history, because it shapes very heavily what it is that I'm looking at. So, I've been very fortunate with entrepreneurial career. I founded three startups. All three of them are successful. Final two were sold, the first one merged and went public. And my third career has been about data, moving data, passing data, processing data, generating insights from it. And, at this phase, I wanted to really evolve from just going and building startup number four, from going through the same motions again. A 10 year adventure, I'm a little bit too old for that, I guess. But the next best thing is to sit from a point whereby I can be more elevated in where I'm dealing with, and broaden the variety of startups I'm focused on, rather than just do your own thing, and just go very, very deep into it. Now, what specifically am I focused on at Sonoma Ventures? So, basically, looking at what I refer to as a data-driven application stack. Anything from the low-level data infrastructure and cloud infrastructure, that helps any persona in the data universe maximize value for data, from their particular point of view, for their particular role, whether it's data analysts, data scientists, data engineers, cloud engineers, DevOps folks, et cetera. All the way up to the application layer, in applications that are very data-heavy. And what are very typical data-heavy applications? FinTech, cyber, Web3, revenue technologies, and product and DevOps. So these are the areas we're focused on. I have almost 23 or 24 startups in the portfolio that span all these different areas. And this is in terms of the aperture. Now, typically, focus on pre-seed, seed. Sometimes a little bit later stage, but this is the primary focus. And it's really about partnering with entrepreneurs, and helping them make, if you will, original mistakes, avoid the mistakes I made. >> Yeah. >> And take it to the next level, whatever the milestone they're driving with. So I'm very, very hands-on with many of those startups. Now, what is it that's happening right now, initially, and why is it so exciting? So, on one hand, you have this scaling of data and its complexity, yet lagging value creation from it, across those different personas we've touched on. So that's one fundamental opportunity which is secular. The other one, which is more a cyclic situation, is the fact that we're going through a down cycle in tech, as is very evident in the public markets, and everything we're hearing about funding going slower and lower, terms shifting more into the hands of typical VCs versus entrepreneur-friendly market, and so on and so forth. And a very significant amount of layoffs. Now, when you combine these two trends together, you're observing a very interesting thing, that a lot of folks, really bright folks, who have sold a startup to a company, or have been in the guts of the large startup, or a large corporation, have, hands-on, experienced all those challenges we've spoken about earlier, in turf, maximizing value from data, irrespective of their role, in a specific angle, or vantage point they have on those challenges. So, for many of them, it's an opportunity to, "Now, let me now start a startup. I've been laid off, maybe, or my company's stock isn't doing as well as it used to, as a large corporation. Now I have an opportunity to actually go and take my entrepreneurial passion, and apply it to a product and experience as part of this larger company." >> Yeah. >> And you see a slew of folks who are emerging with these great ideas. So it's a very, very exciting period of time to innovate. >> It's interesting, a lot of people look at, I mean, I look at Snowflake as an example of a company that refactored data warehouses. They just basically took data warehouse, and put it on the cloud, and called it a data cloud. That, to me, was compelling. They didn't pay any CapEx. They rode Amazon's wave there. So, a similar thing going on with data. You mentioned this, and I see it as an enabling opportunity. So whether it's cybersecurity, FinTech, whatever vertical, you have an enablement. Now, you mentioned data infrastructure. It's a super exciting area, as there's so many stacks emerging. We got an analytics stack, there's real-time stacks, there's data lakes, AI stack, foundational models. So, you're seeing an explosion of stacks, different tools probably will emerge. So, how do you look at that, as a seasoned entrepreneur, now investor? Is that a good thing? Is that just more of the market? 'Cause it just seems like more and more kind of decomposed stacks targeted at use cases seems to be a trend. >> Yeah. >> And how do you vet that, is it? >> So it's a great observation, and if you take a step back and look at the evolution of technology over the last 30 years, maybe longer, you always see these cycles of expansion, fragmentation, contraction, expansion, contraction. Go decentralize, go centralize, go decentralize, go centralize, as manifested in different types of technology paradigms. From client server, to storage, to microservices, to et cetera, et cetera. So I think we're going through another big bang, to a certain extent, whereby end up with more specialized data stacks for specific use cases, as you need performance, the data models, the tooling to best adapt to the particular task at hand, and the particular personas at hand. As the needs of the data analysts are quite different from the needs of an NL engineer, it's quite different from the needs of the data engineer. And what happens is, when you end up with these siloed stacks, you end up with new fragmentation, and new gaps that need to be filled with a new layer of innovation. And I suspect that, in part, that's what we're seeing right now, in terms of the next wave of data innovation. Whether it's in a service of FinTech use cases, or cyber use cases, or other, is a set of tools that end up having to try and stitch together those elements and bridge between them. So I see that as a fantastic gap to innovate around. I see, also, a fundamental need in creating a common data language, and common data management processes and governance across those different personas, because ultimately, the same underlying data these folks need, albeit in different mediums, different access models, different velocities, et cetera, the subject matter, if you will, the underlying raw data, and some of the taxonomies right on top of it, do need to be consistent. So, once again, a great opportunity to innovate, whether it's about semantic layers, whether it's about data mesh, whether it's about CICD tools for data engineers, and so on and so forth. >> I got to ask you, first of all, I see you have a friend you brought into the interview. You have a dog in the background who made a little cameo appearance. And that's awesome. Sitting right next to you, making sure everything's going well. On the AI thing, 'cause I think that's the hot trend here. >> Yeah. >> You're starting to see, that ChatGPT's got everyone excited, because it's kind of that first time you see kind of next-gen functionality, large-language models, where you can bring data in, and it integrates well. So, to me, I think, connecting the dots, this kind of speaks to the beginning of what will be a trend of really blending of data stacks together, or blending of models. And so, as more data modeling emerges, you start to have this AI stack kind of situation, where you have things out there that you can compose. It's almost very developer-friendly, conceptually. This is kind of new, but kind of the same concept's been working on with Google and others. How do you see this emerging, as an investor? What are some of the things that you're excited about, around the ChatGPT kind of things that's happening? 'Cause it brings it mainstream. Again, a million downloads, fastest applications get a million downloads, even among all the successes. So it's obviously hit a nerve. People are talking about it. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, so, I think that's a great point, and clearly, it feels like an iPhone moment, right, to the industry, in this case, AI, and lots of applications. And I think there's, at a high level, probably three different layers of innovation. One is on top of those platforms. What use cases can one bring to the table that would drive on top of a ChatGPT-like service? Whereby, the startup, the company, can bring some unique datasets to infuse and add value on top of it, by custom-focusing it and purpose-building it for a particular use case or particular vertical. Whether it's applying it to customer service, in a particular vertical, applying it to, I don't know, marketing content creation, and so on and so forth. That's one category. And I do know that, as one of my startups is in Y Combinator, this season, winter '23, they're saying that a very large chunk of the YC companies in this cycle are about GPT use cases. So we'll see a flurry of that. The next layer, the one below that, is those who actually provide those platforms, whether it's ChatGPT, whatever will emerge from the partnership with Microsoft, and any competitive players that emerge from other startups, or from the big cloud providers, whether it's Facebook, if they ever get into this, and Google, which clearly will, as they need to, to survive around search. The third layer is the enabling layer. As you're going to have more and more of those different large-language models and use case running on top of it, the underlying layers, all the way down to cloud infrastructure, the data infrastructure, and the entire set of tools and systems, that take raw data, and massage it into useful, labeled, contextualized features and data to feed the models, the AI models, whether it's during training, or during inference stages, in production. Personally, my focus is more on the infrastructure than on the application use cases. And I believe that there's going to be a massive amount of innovation opportunity around that, to reach cost-effective, quality, fair models that are deployed easily and maintained easily, or at least with as little pain as possible, at scale. So there are startups that are dealing with it, in various areas. Some are about focusing on labeling automation, some about fairness, about, speaking about cyber, protecting models from threats through data and other issues with it, and so on and so forth. And I believe that this will be, too, a big driver for massive innovation, the infrastructure layer. >> Awesome, and I love how you mentioned the iPhone moment. I call it the browser moment, 'cause it felt that way for me, personally. >> Yep. >> But I think, from a business model standpoint, there is that iPhone shift. It's not the BlackBerry. It's a whole 'nother thing. And I like that. But I do have to ask you, because this is interesting. You mentioned iPhone. iPhone's mostly proprietary. So, in these machine learning foundational models, >> Yeah. >> you're starting to see proprietary hardware, bolt-on, acceleration, bundled together, for faster uptake. And now you got open source emerging, as two things. It's almost iPhone-Android situation happening. >> Yeah. >> So what's your view on that? Because there's pros and cons for either one. You're seeing a lot of these machine learning laws are very proprietary, but they work, and do you care, right? >> Yeah. >> And then you got open source, which is like, "Okay, let's get some upsource code, and let people verify it, and then build with that." Is it a balance? >> Yes, I think- >> Is it mutually exclusive? What's your view? >> I think it's going to be, markets will drive the proportion of both, and I think, for a certain use case, you'll end up with more proprietary offerings. With certain use cases, I guess the fundamental infrastructure for ChatGPT-like, let's say, large-language models and all the use cases running on top of it, that's likely going to be more platform-oriented and open source, and will allow innovation. Think of it as the equivalent of iPhone apps or Android apps running on top of those platforms, as in AI apps. So we'll have a lot of that. Now, when you start going a little bit more into the guts, the lower layers, then it's clear that, for performance reasons, in particular, for certain use cases, we'll end up with more proprietary offerings, whether it's advanced silicon, such as some of the silicon that emerged from entrepreneurs who have left Google, around TensorFlow, and all the silicon that powers that. You'll see a lot of innovation in that area as well. It hopefully intends to improve the cost efficiency of running large AI-oriented workloads, both in inference and in learning stages. >> I got to ask you, because this has come up a lot around Azure and Microsoft. Microsoft, pretty good move getting into the ChatGPT >> Yep. >> and the open AI, because I was talking to someone who's a hardcore Amazon developer, and they said, they swore they would never use Azure, right? One of those types. And they're spinning up Azure servers to get access to the API. So, the developers are flocking, as you mentioned. The YC class is all doing large data things, because you can now program with data, which is amazing, which is amazing. So, what's your take on, I know you got to be kind of neutral 'cause you're an investor, but you got, Amazon has to respond, Google, essentially, did all the work, so they have to have a solution. So, I'm expecting Google to have something very compelling, but Microsoft, right now, is going to just, might run the table on developers, this new wave of data developers. What's your take on the cloud responses to this? What's Amazon, what do you think AWS is going to do? What should Google be doing? What's your take? >> So, each of them is coming from a slightly different angle, of course. I'll say, Google, I think, has massive assets in the AI space, and their underlying cloud platform, I think, has been designed to support such complicated workloads, but they have yet to go as far as opening it up the same way ChatGPT is now in that Microsoft partnership, and Azure. Good question regarding Amazon. AWS has had a significant investment in AI-related infrastructure. Seeing it through my startups, through other lens as well. How will they respond to that higher layer, above and beyond the low level, if you will, AI-enabling apparatuses? How do they elevate to at least one or two layers above, and get to the same ChatGPT layer, good question. Is there an acquisition that will make sense for them to accelerate it, maybe. Is there an in-house development that they can reapply from a different domain towards that, possibly. But I do suspect we'll end up with acquisitions as the arms race around the next level of cloud wars emerges, and it's going to be no longer just about the basic tooling for basic cloud-based applications, and the infrastructure, and the cost management, but rather, faster time to deliver AI in data-heavy applications. Once again, each one of those cloud suppliers, their vendor is coming with different assets, and different pros and cons. All of them will need to just elevate the level of the fight, if you will, in this case, to the AI layer. >> It's going to be very interesting, the different stacks on the data infrastructure, like I mentioned, analytics, data lake, AI, all happening. It's going to be interesting to see how this turns into this AI cloud, like data clouds, data operating systems. So, super fascinating area. Opher, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise with us. Great to see you, and congratulations on the work. I'll give you the final word here. Give a plugin for what you're looking for for startup seats, pre-seeds. What's the kind of profile that gets your attention, from a seed, pre-seed candidate or entrepreneur? >> Cool, first of all, it's my pleasure. Enjoy our chats, as always. Hopefully the next one's not going to be in nine years. As to what I'm looking for, ideally, smart data entrepreneurs, who have come from a particular domain problem, or problem domain, that they understand, they felt it in their own 10 fingers, or millions of neurons in their brains, and they figured out a way to solve it. Whether it's a data infrastructure play, a cloud infrastructure play, or a very, very smart application that takes advantage of data at scale. These are the things I'm looking for. >> One final, final question I have to ask you, because you're a seasoned entrepreneur, and now coach. What's different about the current entrepreneurial environment right now, vis-a-vis, the past decade? What's new? Is it different, highly accelerated? What advice do you give entrepreneurs out there who are putting together their plan? Obviously, a global resource pool now of engineering. It might not be yesterday's formula for success to putting a venture together to get to that product-market fit. What's new and different, and what's your advice to the folks out there about what's different about the current environment for being an entrepreneur? >> Fantastic, so I think it's a great question. So I think there's a few axes of difference, compared to, let's say, five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. First and foremost, given the amount of infrastructure out there, the amount of open-source technologies, amount of developer toolkits and frameworks, trying to develop an application, at least at the application layer, is much faster than ever. So, it's faster and cheaper, to the most part, unless you're building very fundamental, core, deep tech, where you still have a big technology challenge to deal with. And absent that, the challenge shifts more to how do you manage my resources, to product-market fit, how are you integrating the GTM lens, the go-to-market lens, as early as possible in the product-market fit cycle, such that you reach from pre-seed to seed, from seed to A, from A to B, with an optimal amount of velocity, and a minimal amount of resources. One big difference, specifically as of, let's say, beginning of this year, late last year, is that money is no longer free for entrepreneurs, which means that you need to operate and build startup in an environment with a lot more constraints. And in my mind, some of the best startups that have ever been built, and some of the big market-changing, generational-changing, if you will, technology startups, in their respective industry verticals, have actually emerged from these times. And these tend to be the smartest, best startups that emerge because they operate with a lot less money. Money is not as available for them, which means that they need to make tough decisions, and make verticals every day. What you don't need to do, you can kick the cow down the road. When you have plenty of money, and it cushions for a lot of mistakes, you don't have that cushion. And hopefully we'll end up with companies with a more agile, more, if you will, resilience, and better cultures in making those tough decisions that startups need to make every day. Which is why I'm super, super excited to see the next batch of amazing unicorns, true unicorns, not just valuation, market rising with the water type unicorns that emerged from this particular era, which we're in the beginning of. And very much enjoy working with entrepreneurs during this difficult time, the times we're in. >> The next 24 months will be the next wave, like you said, best time to do a company. Remember, Airbnb's pitch was, "We'll rent cots in apartments, and sell cereal." Boy, a lot of people passed on that deal, in that last down market, that turned out to be a game-changer. So the crazy ideas might not be that bad. So it's all about the entrepreneurs, and >> 100%. >> this is a big wave, and it's certainly happening. Opher, thank you for sharing. Obviously, data is going to change all the markets. Refactoring, security, FinTech, user experience, applications are going to be changed by data, data operating system. Thanks for coming on, and thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. >> My pleasure. Have a good one. >> Okay, more coverage for the CloudNativeSecurityCon inaugural event. Data will be the key for cybersecurity. theCUBE's coverage continues after this break. (uplifting music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay today, we welcome Evan Kaplan, CEO of InfluxData, the company behind InfluxDB. Welcome Evan, thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, thanks for having me. >> Great segment here on the InfluxDB story. What is the story? Take us through the history, why time series? What's the story? >> So the history history is actually pretty interesting. Paul Dix my partner in this and our founder, super passionate about developers and developer experience. And he had worked on wall street building a number of time series kind of platform, trading platforms for trading stocks. And from his point of view, it was always what he would call a yak shave. Which means you had to do a ton of work just to start doing work. Which means you had to write a bunch of extrinsic routines, you had to write a bunch of application handling on existing relational databases, in order to come up with something that was optimized for a trading platform or a time series platform. And he sort of, he just developed this real clear point of view. This is not how developers should work. And so in 2013, he went through Y Combinator, and he built something for, he made his first commit to open source InfluxDB in the end of 2013. And he basically, you know from my point of view, he invented modern time series, which is you start with a purpose built time series platform to do these kind of workloads, and you get all the benefits of having something right out of the box. So a developer can be totally productive right away. >> And how many people are in the company? What's the history of employees is there? >> Yeah, I think we're, you know, I always forget the number but something like 230 or 240 people now. I joined the company in 2016, and I love Paul's vision. And I just had a strong conviction about the relationship between time series and IOT. 'Cause if you think about it, what sensors do is they speak time series. Pressure, temperature, volume, humidity, light, they're measuring, they're instrumenting something over time. And so I thought that would be super relevant over the long term, and I've not regretted it. >> Oh no, and it's interesting at that time if you go back in history, you know, the role of database. It's all relational database, the one database to rule the world. And then as cloud started coming in, you started to see more databases proliferate, types of databases. And time series in particular is interesting 'cause real time has become super valuable from an application standpoint. IOT which speaks time series, means something. It's like time matters >> Times yeah. >> And sometimes data's not worth it after the time, sometimes it's worth it. And then you get the data lake, so you have this whole new evolution. Is this the momentum? What's the momentum? I guess the question is what's the momentum behind it? >> You mean what's causing us to grow so fast? >> Yeah the time series, why is time series- >> And the category- >> Momentum, what's the bottom line? >> Well think about it, you think about it from a broad sort of frame which is, what everybody's trying to do is build increasingly intelligent systems. whether it's a self-driving car or a robotic system that does what you want to do, or a self-healing software system. Everybody wants to build increasing intelligent systems. And so in order to build these increasing intelligent systems, you have to instrument the system well. And you have to instrument it over time, better and better. And so you need a tool, a fundamental tool to drive that instrumentation. And that's become clear to everybody that that instrumentation is all based on time. And so what happened, what happened, what happened, what's going to happen. And so you get to these applications like predictive maintenance, or smarter systems, and increasingly you want to do that stuff not just intelligently, but fast in real time. So millisecond response, so that when you're driving a self-driving car, and the system realizes that you're about to do something, essentially you want to be able to act in something that looks like real time. All systems want to do that, they want to be more intelligent, and they want to be more real time. And so we just happen to, you know, we happen to show up at the right time in the evolution of a market. >> It's interesting near real time isn't good enough when you need real time. >> Yeah, it's not, it's not. And it's like everybody wants real even when you don't need it, ironically you want it. It's like having the feature for, you know you buy a new television, you want that one feature, even though you're not going to use it. You decide that's your buying criteria. Real time is criteria for people. >> So I mean, what you're saying then is near realtime is getting closer to real time as fast as possible? >> Right. >> Okay, so talk about the aspect of data, 'cause we're hearing a lot of conversations on theCUBE in particular around how people are implementing and actually getting better. So iterating on data, but you have to know when it happened to get know how to fix it. So this is a big part of what we're seeing with people saying, "Hey, you know I want to "make my machine learning algorithms better "after the fact, I want to learn from the data." How do you see that evolving? Is that one of the use cases of sensors as people bring data in off the network, getting better with the data, knowing when it happened? >> Well, for sure what you're saying is, is none of this is non-linear, it's all incremental. And so if you take something, you know just as an easy example, if you take a self-driving car, what you're doing is you're instrumenting that car to understand where it can perform in the real world in real time. And if you do that, if you run the loop which is, I instrument it, I watch what happens, oh that's wrong, oh I have to correct for that. I correct for that in the software. If you do that for a billion times, you get a self-driving car. But every system moves along that evolution. And so you get the dynamic of constantly instrumenting, watching the system behave and do it. And so a self driving car is one thing, but even in the human genome, if you look at some of our customers, you know, people like, people doing solar arrays, people doing power walls like all of these systems are getting smarter and smarter. >> Well, let's get into that. What are the top applications? What are you seeing with InfluxDB, the time series, what's the sweet spot for the application use case and some customers? Give some examples. >> Yeah so it's pretty easy to understand on one side of the equation, that's the physical side is, sensors are getting cheap obviously we know that. The whole physical world is getting instrumented, your home, your car, the factory floor, your wrist watch, your healthcare, you name it, it's getting instrumented in the physical world. We're watching the physical world in real time. And so there are three or four sweet spots for us, but they're all on that side, they're all about IOT. So they're thinking about consumer IOT kind of projects like Google's Nest, Tudor, particle sensors, even delivery engines like Rappi, who deliver the instant car to South America. Like anywhere there's a physical location and that's on the consumer side. And then another exciting space is the industrial side. Factories are changing dramatically over time. Increasingly moving away from proprietary equipment to develop or driven systems that run operational. Because what has to get smarter when you're building a factory is systems all have to get smarter. And then lastly, a lot in the renewables, so sustainability. So a lot, you know, Tesla, Lucid motors, Nicola motors, you know, lots to do with electric cars, solar arrays, windmills arrays, just anything that's going to get instrumented that where that instrumentation becomes part of what the purpose is. >> It's interesting the convergence of physical and digital is happening with the data. IOT you mentioned, you know, you think of IOT, look at the use cases there. It was proprietary OT systems, now becoming more IP enabled, internet protocol. And now edge compute, getting smaller, faster, cheaper. AI going to the edge. Now you have all kinds of new capabilities that bring that real time and time series opportunity. Are you seeing IOT going to a new level? Where's the IOT OT dots connecting to? Because, you know as these two cultures merge, operations basically, industrial, factory, car, they got to get smarter. Intelligent edge is a buzzword but I mean, it has to be more intelligent. Where's the action in all this? >> So the action, really, it really at the core, it's at the developer, right? Because you're looking at these things, it's very hard to get an off the shelf system to do the kinds of physical and software interaction. So the action's really happen at the developer. And so what you're seeing is a movement in the world that maybe you and I grew up in with IT or OT moving increasingly that developer driven capability. And so all of these IOT systems, they're bespoke, they don't come out of the box. And so the developer, the architect, the CTO, they define what's my business? What am I trying to do? Am I trying to sequence a human genome and figure out when these genes express themselves? Or am I trying to figure out when the next heart rate monitor is going to show up in my apple watch? Right, what am I trying to do? What's the system I need to build? And so starting with the developer is where all of the good stuff happens here. Which is different than it used to be, right. It used to be you'd buy an application or a service or a SaaS thing for, but with this dynamic, with this integration of systems, it's all about bespoke, it's all about building something. >> So let's get to the developer real quick. Real highlight point here is the data, I mean, I could see a developer saying, "Okay, I need to have an application for the edge," IOT edge or car, I mean we're going to have, I mean Tesla got applications of the car, it's right there. I mean, there's the modern application life cycle now. So take us through how does this impacts the developer. Does it impact their CICD pipeline? Is it cloud native? I mean where does this go to? >> Well, so first of all you're talking about, there was an internal journey that we had to go through as a company which I think is fascinating for anybody that's interested, is we went from primarily a monolithic software that was open sourced to building a Cloud-native platform. Which means we had to move from an agile development environment to a CICD environment. So to degree that you are moving your service, whether it's you know, Tesla monitoring your car and updating your power walls, right. Or whether it's a solar company updating the arrays, right, to a degree that that service is cloud. Then increasingly we remove from an agile development to a CICD environment, which you're shipping code to production every day. And so it's not just the developers, it's all the infrastructure to support the developers to run that service and that sort of stuff. I think that's also going to happen in a big way. >> When your customer base that you have now, and as you see evolving with in InfluxDB, is it that they're going to be writing more of the application or relying more on others? I mean obviously it's an open source component here. So when you bring in kind of old way, new way, old way was, I got a proprietary platform running all this IOT stuff, and I got to write, here's an application that's general purpose. I have some flexibility, somewhat brittle, maybe not a lot of robustness to it, but it does this job. >> A good way to think about this is- >> Versus new way which is what? >> So yeah a good way to think about this is what's the role of the developer/architect, CTO, that chain within a large, with an enterprise or a company. And so the way to think about is I started my career in the aerospace industry. And so when you look at what Boeing does to assemble a plane, they build very very few of the parts. Instead what they do is they assemble. They buy the wings, they buy the engines, they assemble, actually they don't buy the wings. That's the one thing, they buy the material for the wing. They build the wings 'cause there's a lot of tech in the wings, and they end up being assemblers, smart assemblers of what ends up being a flying airplane. Which is a pretty big deals even now. And so what happens with software people is, they have the ability to pull from you know, the best of the open source world. So they would pull a time series capability from us, then they would assemble that with potentially some ETL logic from somebody else. Or they'd assemble it with a Kafka interface to be able to stream the data in. And so they become very good integrators and assemblers but they become masters of that bespoke application. And I think that's where it goes 'cause you're not writing native code for everything. >> So they're more flexible, they have faster time to market 'cause they're assembling. >> Way faster. >> And they get to still maintain their core competency, AKA their wings in this case. >> They become increasingly not just coders but designers and developers. They become broadly builders is what we like to think of it. People who start and build stuff. By the way, this is not different than the people just up the road. Google have been doing for years or the tier one Amazon building all their own. >> Well, I think one of the things that's interesting is that this idea of a systems developing, a system architecture. I mean systems have consequences when you make changes. So when you have now cloud data center on-premise and edge working together, how does that work across the system? You can't have a wing that doesn't work with the other wing kind of thing. >> That's exactly, but that's where that Boeing or that airplane building analogy comes in. For us, we've really been thoughtful about that because IOT it's critical. So our open source edge has the same API as our cloud native stuff that has enterprise on prem edge. So our multiple products have the same API and they have a relationship with each other. They can talk with each other. So the builder builds it once. And so this is where, when you start thinking about the components that people have to use to build these services is that, you want to make sure at least that base layer, that database layer that those components talk to each other. >> So I'll have to ask you if I'm the customer, I put my customer hat on. Okay, hey, I'm dealing with a lot. >> Does that mean you have a PO for- >> (laughs) A big check, a blank check, if you can answer this question. >> Only if in tech. >> If you get the question right. I got all this important operation stuff, I got my factory, I got my self-driving cars, this isn't like trivial stuff, this is my business. How should I be thinking about time series? Because now I have to make these architectural decisions as you mentioned and it's going to impact my application development. So huge decision point for your customers. What should I care about the most? What's in it for me? Why is time series important? >> Yeah, that's a great question. So chances are, if you've got a business that was 20 years old or 25 years old, you were already thinking about time series. You probably didn't call it that, you built something on Oracle, or you built something on IBM's Db2, right, and you made it work within your system. Right, and so that's what you started building. So it's already out there, there are probably hundreds of millions of time series applications out there today. But as you start to think about this increasing need for real time, and you start to think about increasing intelligence, you think about optimizing those systems over time, I hate the word, but digital transformation. Then you start with time series, it's a foundational base layer for any system that you're going to build. There's no system I can think of where time series shouldn't be the foundational base layer. If you just want to store your data and just leave it there and then maybe look it up every five years, that's fine. That's not time series. Time series is when you're building a smarter more intelligent, more real time system. And the developers now know that. And so the more they play a role in building these systems the more obvious it becomes. >> And since I have a PO for you and a big check. >> Yeah. >> What's the value to me when I implement this? What's the end state? What's it look like when it's up and running? What's the value proposition for me? What's in it for me? >> So when it's up and running, you're able to handle the queries, the writing of the data, the down sampling of the data, the transforming it in near real time. So that the other dependencies that a system it gets for adjusting a solar array or trading energy off of a power wall or some sort of human genome, those systems work better. So time series is foundational. It's not like it's doing every action that's above, but it's foundational to build a really compelling intelligence system. I think that's what developers and architects are seeing now. >> Bottom line, final word, what's in it for the customer? What's your statement to the customer? What would you say to someone looking to do something in time series and edge? >> Yeah so it's pretty clear to us that if you're building, if you view yourself as being in the business of building systems, that you want 'em to be increasingly intelligent, self-healing autonomous. You want 'em to operate in real time, that you start from time series. But I also want to say what's in it for us, Influx. What's in it for us is, people are doing some amazing stuff. You know, I highlighted some of the energy stuff, some of the human genome, some of the healthcare, it's hard not to be proud or feel like, "Wow." >> Yeah. >> "Somehow I've been lucky, I've arrived at the right time, "in the right place with the right people "to be able to deliver on that." That's also exciting on our side of the equation. >> Yeah, it's critical infrastructure, critical of operations. >> Yeah. >> Great stuff. Evan thanks for coming on, appreciate this segment. All right, in a moment, Brian Gilmore director of IOT and emerging technology at InfluxData will join me. You're watching theCUBE, leader in tech coverage. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE, covering GitLab Commit 2020. Brought to you by GitLab. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of GitLab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest off the keynote stage this morning, the co-founder and CEO of GitLab, Sid Sijbrandij. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> All right, so Sid, first of all congratulations, good energy here at the show, GitLab, definitely a company I hear lots about in my travels, so we were super excited to bring theCUBE here. So many different things on the momentum of the company, where you're going, but, I love when I have a founder on. Let's rewind a little bit as to kind of the core 'why' of the company and the skillset that that early team brought. >> Sure, the 'why' is, Demitri started GitLab in 2011. He was living in the Ukraine, he had two things he wanted to improve in life. He would like running water, he would like better collaboration software at work. And he started with what he perceived as the most important problem to solve, so he built GitLab to have that better collaboration software. I only saw it a year later, and I thought, this makes so much sense that the thing you collaborate with is also something you can collaborate on at its open source. >> Yeah, it's interesting, 'cause you say collaboration, and we saw through the Enterprise 2.0 wave and various communication technologies, I interviewed one of your partners Mattermost which is kind of related there. You get there to GitLab, which in the early days, I heard a lot about oh, is this a GitHub alternative? So how did the SCM piece end up there? >> Yeah, so we started with the SCM piece, that's what Demitri made first because he had a need for it. And it evolved, it's now a complete DevOps platform all the way from planning what you want to do on a high level to monitoring, releasing, securing what you've built. And that wasn't intuitive to us. And it came about because Demitri made Version Control, but he also made GitLabCI. That's two separate applications. And at a certain point, someone outside the company contributed a better version of GitLabCI, his name is Kamil, and we said that's amazing, we'll make that official, and do you want to join? And he joined and after a few months he said, I think we should combine the two in a single application. And my co-founder Demitri explained how he was wrong. These two are perfectly integrated, couldn't be any better. Custom-made PIs, same single sign-on, same idea of what a user can do. He also explained how he was wrong because everything in a DevOps tuning space was a point solution, people wanted to mix and match. And he kept pushing for it, and at a certain point, he said look, you might not believe that everything I say, but one thing is for sure, we'll be able to kind of ship at a faster rate if we combine it. And that was important to us, we're all about efficiency. But it turns out, he was also right about the benefits for the user. People reported like, it's so much easier having everything in a single interface, being on the same page with my other departments. And that's how we stumbled across this secret, like hey, this whole DevOps space, it started from just a few applications but now people are using 15, 20 different applications and the hand-offs between the applications were the problem. And that we could solve by bringing them together. So we doubled down on that strategy, so that's how that came about. >> Yeah, I mean there's no doubt that tool sprawl is a huge issue in the marketplace, yet when you talk to developers, when they learn a tool, they tend to really love it and they all go to bat as to, well, I sort it out and I found the best one for whatever piece of it. So how do you balance really building out a platform but if there's a piece of it that they still want to use they can, how do you balance that? >> Yeah, you got to make sure that you don't lock people in. The last thing someone wants is that they have to use everything. So open APIs, many integrations, some of which we maintain ourselves with a Jenkins and a Jura and a GitHub. But also, you make sure that sometimes people care very much about the certain piece of frictionality. So with GitLab, if they don't like a certain piece, they can improve it, they can contribute back. And every month, 200 improvements come from our users. They had something in their old application that they really liked, and now they get to add that to GitLab, and that's how you kind of take away all the objections over time. >> Yeah. Love you to comment on just the explosive growth that you've been seeing, you're now over 1100 employees, you talked about how much outside contribution you're getting there, but the amount of features that you're adding, and you're releasing every month. How do you manage the growth of the company, the growth of the product, and make sure that the company doesn't lose focus? >> Yeah. I think that we've done a really good job of splitting up the tasks of making sure every team has a part of the product that they're responsible for. They don't have to go to five other teams to get sign-off. And if you Google GitLab categories, you can find out exactly which team is responsible for the back end, for the front end, who's the product manager, who's the product marketing manager, for a specific piece of functionality. So I think that's really helped us, making sure the teams can still ship and they're not bogged down because other people don't have time. >> Yeah, the mission is that everyone can contribute, and you're looking to really help companies solve one of the key problems of being a software company, which is reducing cycle time. How does that translate into growth and revenue for your business? >> Yeah, so that cycle, the time between planning to do something and getting it out to users, that's what companies need to become software companies. And they're seeing that they're able to do that faster with GitLab. And we've seen amazing growth, we just announced we're over 100 million ARR, we're seeing amazing growth in revenue, so we're more than doubling revenue every year, we've almost tripled the amount of people working at GitLab last year to keep up with that growth. >> Yeah, very interesting dynamic, you had a sizable round of funding towards the end of 2019, congratulations on the milestone, you said in February 2020 you hit 100 million dollars ARR. I guess the question, it's publicly stated that you're looking to IPO later this year. We've seen many unicorns out there delaying what they're doing, they wait until they have 300 million dollars in revenue. Is there a reason why you're charging towards an IPO? >> We want to become a public company sooner rather than later, because first of all, we think it fits us. We're a very transparent company, we don't mind sharing what we're about and what our financials are. The second thing is, I think one of the big things holding GitLab back is that we're not as well known. And becoming a public company will help spread awareness about what we can do. And that's one of the most important things we can do. So that's why we're going forward, we'll go public when we're ready, when the market is ready. We think that's this year, we might be wrong, we'll see how it ends up this year. But we're looking forward to that, and we're looking forward to being even more transparent, and also sharing our financials. >> Sid, one of the things you said, you're over 1000 employees, and you're completely remote, as far as we know, the largest company that is 100% remote. Talk a little bit about kind of the challenges from building a culture in that type of environment but it's also something that I think GitLab's helping to enable other companies along that same journey. >> Yeah, we're figuring out a lot of things you have to do to be all remote, and we're trying to share those lessons. And that's anything from working handbook first to communication styles and being intentional about informal communications. So if you Google GitLab all remote, you'll find tons of tips. And those are based not just on what we say, but what we do. We have a public handbook of over 3000 pages with all our internal processes. You can check what we really do to make this work. And I think it's going to be the future. In the future, companies who make digital products are going to be much more all remote. And we want to enable that trend. We think it's great for team members, we think it helps you reduce your commute time, it helps you to be able to intersperse what you do at the company with what you do in your private life, you're able to go the gym or the supermarket when it's not busy, and also it helps be more flexible. So its great for team members, it's also great for companies. You get to attract people wherever they are, get much more access to talent, and the talent that people can stay with you year over year. We have a 85% retention of people who stay with GitLab every year. >> Is that something you think that spans across whatever roles they are, lots of companies that I talk to they'll have their developing groups, will be highly distributed. We've seen global development work forces for decades now, but marketing roles or product teams often have been in regional offices, obviously if you've got sales forces, groups that often they will have regional offices. So is this specific for the digital and development type organizations, or is this something you think will span across other roles? >> When we graduated at Y Combinator, they told us all this work's for engineering. It maybe works for sales because they're close to the customer. It doesn't work for finance, it doesn't work for marketing. And I think we've proven that it does work. Our marketing team is all in on GitLab. But also, we've seen other marketing teams. There was a presentation today by someone who runs a marketing team, and they're using GitLab. Not just for the issues, but they're even version controlling, they're copying, they're messaging in GitLab, so, I think the time has come to accept that the tools have gotten so good, and people have gotten so knowledgeable that it works across all departments. >> Yeah, Sid, I'd like you to comment on your partner ecosystem, that you said everything's open, so therefore there's no lock-in. How do you build more community from your peers from the vendor ecosystem? >> Yeah, you see here today we have different vendors out that they get customers here that integrate with us. There's vendors here, we have an alternative in GitLab. But they have something that they think adds unique value, and we want to give them a podium. We want people to know that we're not locking them in. So we're very helpful, we're trying to be helpful, get them on our blog, get them media, because nobody wants to be locked into one solution. So that's a really important message that we're sending. >> All right. Sid, why don't you give the final word, you've said people, GitLab is not yet a household name, what do you want to make sure that people understand who GitLab is and why they're important for the future of software development? >> Yeah, so we're a complete DevOps platform delivered as a single application, and we help people go much faster. At Goldman Sachs they went for the most important application, they went from two weeks to get that out the door to two hours to get that out the door. That's the value we can bring, because you don't have to go to 15 point solutions to get your work done. Much better visibility, people can switch teams, you have a good overview of your security posture, your productivity. That's the value we're bringing. You can reduce people's, their licensing cost, their costs of integrating things, but most importantly we can help them go faster and get to revenue faster. >> Sid Sijbrandij, thank you so much for joining us on the program, really appreciate theCUBE coming to GitLab Commit. >> Awesome, thanks for coming. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman, check out theCUBE.net for all the shows we will be at in 2020. Thank you for watching theCUBE.

>>from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering. Get lab commit 2020 Brought to you by get lab. >>Welcome back. I'm Stew Minutemen, and this is get lab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program. First time guests and TN Who is the co founder and CEO of Matter Most in. Nice to meet you. >>Thanks. Thanks for having me. >>Alright. S O. I always love. When you get the founders, we go back to a little bit of the why. And just from our little bit of conversation, there is a connection with get lab. You have relationships, Syd, Who's the co founder and CEO of get lab? So bring us back and tell us a little bit about that. >>Yeah, thanks. So I'm you know, I'm ex Microsoft. So I came from collaboration for many years there. And then, you know what I did after Microsoft's I started my own started a sort of video game company was backed by Y Combinator and, you know, we had were doing 85. Game engine is very, very fun on. We ran the entire company off of a messaging product. Misses, You know, a little while ago and it happens that messing product got bought by a big company and that got kind neglected. It started crashing and lose data. We were super unhappy. We tried to export and they wouldn't let us export. We had 26 gigs of all information. And when we stop paying our subscription, they would pay one less for our own information. So, you know, very unhappy. And we're like, holy cats. Like what? I'm gonna d'oh! And rather than go to another platform, we actually realized about 10 million hours of people running messaging and video games. Well, why don't we kind of build this ourselves? So we kind of build a little prototype, started using ourselves internally and because, you know, Sid was this a 2015 and said was out of my Combinator, We were y commoner would invent and we started talking. I was showing him what we built and sits like. You should open source that. And he had this really compelling reason. He's like, Well, if you open source it and people like it, you can always close source it again because it's a prototype. But if you open source, it and no one cares. You should stop doing what you do. And he was great. Kind of send me like this email with all the things you need to dio to run open source business. And it was just wonderful. And it just it is a start taking off. We started getting these wonderful, amazing enterprise customers that really saw what mattered most was at the very beginning, which was You know, some people call us open source slack, but what it really is, it's a collaborates, a collaboration platform for real Time Dev ops and it release. For people who are regulated, it's gonna offer flexibility and on Prem deployment and a lot of security and customization. So that's kind of we started and get lab is we kind of started Farley. We started following get labs footsteps and you'll find today with get lab is we're we're bundled with the omnibus. So all you have to do is put what your own would you like matter most on one. Get lab reconfigure and europe running. >>Yeah, I love that. That story would love you to tease out a little bit when you hear you know, open source. You know, communications and secure might not be things that people would necessarily all put together. So help us understand a little bit the underlying architecture. This isn't just, you know, isn't messaging it, Z how is it different from things that people would be familiar with? >>Yeah, that's a great question. So how do you get more secure with open source products? And the one thing look at, I'll just give you one example. Is mobility right? So, in mobile today, if you're pushing them, if you're setting a push notification to an Iowa, sir. An android device, It has a route through, like Google or Android. Right? And whatever app that you're using to send those notifications they're going to see you're going to see your notifications. They have to, right? So you just get encryption all that stuff in order to send to Google and Andrew, you have to send it on encrypted. And you know these applications are not there, not yours. They're owned by another organization. So how do you make that private how to make it secure? So with open source communication, you get the source code. It's an extreme case like we have you know, perhaps you can views, and it's really simple in turnkey. But in the if you want to go in the full privacy, most security you have the full source code. APS. You have the full source code to the system, including what pushes the messages to your APS, and you can compiling with your own certificates. And you can set up a system where you actually have complete privacy and no third party can actually get your information. And why enterprises in many cases want that extreme privacy is because when you're doing incident response and you have information about a vulnerability or breach that could really upset many, many critical systems. If that information leaked out, you really can't. Many people don't want ever to touch 1/3 party. So that's one example of how open source lets you have that privacy and security, because you because you control everything >>all right, what we threw a little bit the speeds and feeds. How many employees do you have? How many did you share? How many customers you have, where you are with funding? >>So where we are funding is, you know, last year we announced a 20 million Siri's A and A 50 million Siri's be who went from about 40 folks the beginning the aired about 100 a t end of the year. We got over 1000 people that contribute to matter most, and what you'll find is what you'll find is every sort of get lab on the bus installations. Gonna have a matter most is gonna have the ability to sort of turn on matter most so very broad reach. It's sort of like one step away. There's lots of customers. You can see it. Get lab commit that are running matter. Most get lab together, so customers are going to include Hey, there's the I T K and Agriculture that's got six times faster deployments running. Get lab in Madame's together, you've got world line. It's got 3000 people in the system, so you've got a lot of so we're growing really quickly. And there's a lot of opportunity working with Get lab to bring get lab into mobile into sort of real times. Dev up scenarios. >>Definitely One of the themes we hear the at the show is that get labs really enabling the remote workforce, especially when you talk about the developers. It sounds like that's very much in line with what matters most is doing. >>Absolutely. Madam Mrs Moat. First, I don't actually know. We're probably in 20 plus countries, and it's it's a remote team. So we use use matter most to collaborate, and we use videoconferencing and issue tracking across a bunch of different systems. And, yeah, it's just it's remote. First, it's how it's how we work. It's very natural. >>Yeah, it just give us a little bit of the inside. How do you make sure, as a CEO that you, you know, have the culture and getting everyone on the same page when many of them, you know, you're not seeing them regularly? Some of them you've probably never met in person, so >>that's a great question. So how do you sort of maintain that culture 11? The concert that get lips pioneered is a continent boring solutions, and it's something that we've taken on as well. What's the most boring solution to preserve culture and to scale? And it's really do what get labs doing right? So get love's hand, looked up. Get lab dot com. We've got handbook that matter most dot com. It's really writing down all the things that how we operate, what our culture is and what are values are so that every person that onboard is gonna get the same experience, right? And then what happens is people think that if you're building, you're gonna have stronger culture because, you know, sort of like, you know, absorbing things. What actually happens is it's this little broken telephone and starts echoing out, and it's opposed to going one source of truth. It's everyone's interpretation. We have a handbook and you're forced to write things down. It's a very unnatural act, and when you force people to write things down, then you get that consistency and every we can go to a source of truth and say, like, This is the way we operate. >>2019 was an interesting year for open source. There were certain companies that were changing their models as toe how they do things. You started it open source to be able to get, you know, direct feedback. But how do you position and talk to people about you know, the role of open source on still being ableto have a business around that >>so open source is, I think there's a generation of open source cos there's three ways you can really make money from open source, right? You can host software, you can provide support, and service is where you can do licensing, which is an open core model. When you see his categories of companies like allowed, you see categories like elastic like Hash corporate Terra Form involved with Get Lab that have chosen the open core model. And this is really becoming sort of a standard on what we do is we fall that standard, and we know that it supports public companies and supports companies with hyper growth like get Lab. So it's a very it's becoming a model that I'm actually quite familiar to the market, and what we see is this this sort of generation, this sort of movement of okay, there was operating systems Windows Circle. Now there's now there's more servers running Lennix than Windows Server. On Azure, you seen virtual ization technology. You've seen databases all sort of go the open source way and we see that it's a natural progression of collaboration. So it's really like we believe collaboration will go the open source way we believe leading the way to do that is through open core because you can generate a sustainable, scalable business that's going to give enterprises the confidence to invest in the right platform. >>All right, in what's on deck for matter most in 2020. >>It's really we would definitely want to work with. Get lab a lot more. We really want to go from this concept of concurrent Dev ops that get labs really champion to say Real time de Bob's. So we've got Dev ops in the world that's taking months and weeks of cycle times. And bring that down to minutes. We want to take you know, all your processes that take hours and take it down to seconds. So what really people, developers air sort of clamoring for a lot is like, Well, how do we get these if I'm regulated if I have a lot of customization needs? If I'm on premise, if I'm in a private network, how do I get to mobile? How do I get quicker interactions on? We really want to support that with instant response with deficit cock use cases and with really having a complete solution that could go from all your infrastructure in your data center, too. You know, that really important person walking through the airport. And that's that's how you speed cycle times and make Deb sec cops available anywhere. And you do it securely and in do it privately. >>All right, thanks so much for meeting with us. And great to hear about matter most. >>Well, thank you. Still >>all right. Be sure to check out the cube dot net for all the coverage that we will have throughout 2020 I'm still minimum. And thanks for watching the cue.

(rhythmic techno music) >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCube. We're at Oracle Park on the shores of McCovey Cove. We're excited to be here, it's a pretty interesting event. Sports Tech Tokyo World Demo Day. It's kind of like an accelerator but not really, it's kind of like Y Combinator but not really, it's a little bit different. But it's a community of tech start-ups focusing on sports with a real angle on getting beyond sports. We're excited to have our next guest, who's an investor and also a mentor, really part of the program to learn more about it and she is Gayatri Sarkar, the managing partner from Hype Capital. Welcome. >> Thank you. Thank you for inviting me here. >> Pretty nice, huh? (laughs) >> Oh, I just love the view. >> So you said before we turned on the cameras, well first off Hype Capital, what do you guys invest in? What's kind of your focus? >> So Hype Capital is part of one of the biggest ecosystems in sports which is Hype Sports Innovation. We have 13 accelerators all around the world. We are just launching the world's first E-sports accelerator with Epsilon and SK Gaming, one of the biggest gaming company. So we are part of the ecosystem for a pretty long time. And now, we have Hype Capital, VC Fund investing in Europe, Israel, and now in U.S. >> So you mentioned that being a mentor is part of this organization. It's something special. I think you're the first person we've had on who's been a mentor. What does that mean, what does that mean for you? But also what does it mean for all the portfolio companies? >> Sure, I'm a mentor at multiple accelerators. But being a part of Sports Tech Tokyo I saw the very inclusive community that is created by them and the opportunity to look at various portfolio companies and also including our portfolio companies as part of it. One of our portfolio company where we had the lead investors, 'Fun with Balls' they're part of this. >> What's it called, Fun with Balls? >> Fun with Balls, very interesting name. >> Good name. (laughs) >> Yeah, they're from Germany and they came all the way from Germany to here. So, yeah, I'm very excited, because as I said it's an inclusive community, and sports is big. So we are looking at opportunities where deep-techs, where it can be translated into various other verticals, but sports can also be one of the use cases, and that's our focus as investors. >> Right, you said your focus was really on AI, machine learning, you have a big data background a tech background. So when you look at the application of AI in sports what are some of the things that you get excited about. >> Yeah, so for me when I'm looking at investments definitely the diversification of sports portfolio. How can I build my portfolio from esports, gaming, behavioral science in sports to AI, ML, AR, opportunities in material science and various other cases. Coming back to your question it's like how can I look into the market and see the opportunities that, okay can I invest in this sector? Like what's the next big trend? And that's where I want to invest. Obviously, product/market fit, promise/market fit because there's a fan engagement experience that you get in sports, not in any other market the network effect is huge, and I think that's what VVC's are very excited in sports and I think this is right now the best time to invest in sports. >> So promise/market fit, I've never heard that before what does that mean when you say promise/market fit? >> Interesting question so promise/market fit was coined by Union Square Venture VC fund. And they think that where there's the network effect or your engagement with your consumers, with your clients, and with your partners can create a very loyal fan base and I think that is very important. You may see that in other technology sector but, not, it is completely unparalelled when it comes to sports. So, I request all the technologies that are actually trying to build they are use cases, they should focus on sports because the fan engagement, the loyal experience the opportunities, you will not get anywhere else. >> Right >> And I think this is the market that I, and other investors are looking for that, if deep-tech investors and deep-tech technologies are coming into this market we see the sports ecosystem not to be a trillion dollar but a multi-trillion dollar market. >> Right, but it's such a unique experience though, right? I mean some people will joke that fans don't necessarily root for the team, they root for the jersey, right? The players come and go, we're here at Oracle Park which was AT&T park, which was SBC Park, which was I can't even remember, Pac bell I think as well. So you know, is it reasonable for a regular company that doesn't have this innate connection to a fanbase that a lot of sports organizations do that's historical, and family-based, and has such deep roots that can survive maybe down years, can survive a crappy product, can survive kind of the dark days and generally they'll be there when things turn back around. Is that reasonable for a regular company to get that relationship with the customer? >> So, you asked me one of the most important questions in the investors relationship, or investors life which is the cyclicality of the industry and I feel like sports is one industry that has survived the cyclicality of that industry. Because, as you say, a crappy product will not survive you have to focus on customer service so you have to focus, that, okay even if you have the best product in the world how can I make my product sticky? These are the qualities that we are looking into when we are investing in entrepreneurs. But the idea is that if we are targeting startups and opportunities, our focus is that okay, you may have the worlds best product but the founder's should have the ability to understand the market. Okay, there are opportunities, if you look at Facebook if you look at various other companies they started with a product that was maybe like okay, friend site, dating site and they pivoted, so you need to understand the economy you need to understand the market and I think that's what we are looking into the entrepreneurs. And, to answer your question, the family offices they are actually part of this whole startup ecosystem they are saying if there is an opportunity because they are big, they are giant and they are working with legacy techs like Microsoft, Amazon. It's very difficult for the legacy techs to be agile and move fast, so it's very important for them if they can place themselves at a 45 degree angle with the startup ecosystem, and they can move faster. So that's the opportunity for them in the sport's startup ecosystem. >> All right, well Gayatri thanks for taking a few minutes and hopefully you can find some new investments here. >> No, thank you so much thank you so much for your time. >> Absolutely, she's Gayatri, I'm Jeff you're watching The Cube, we are at Oracle Park On the shores of historic McCovey Cove I got to get together with Big John and practice this line thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time. (rhythmic techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas. It's The Cube! Covering PolyCon 18. Brought to you by PolyMath. >> Welcome back everyone, we're live here in the Bahamas with The Cube's exclusive coverage of PolyCon 18, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Dave Vellante, both co-founders of SiliconANGLE. We start our coverage of the crypto-currency ICO, blockchain, decentralized world internet that it is becoming. It's the beginning of our tour, 2018. Our next guest is Hartej Sawhney who's the advisor at Pink Sky Capital, but also the co-founder of Hosho.io. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you so much. >> Hey thanks for coming on. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks guys. >> We had a great chat last night, and you do some real good work. You're one of the smartest guys in the business. Got a great reputation. A lot of good stuff going on. So, take a minute to talk about who you are, what you're working on, what you're doing, and the projects you're involved in. >> So first of all, thank you so much for having me, it's really exciting to see the progress of high-quality content being created in the space. So my name is Hartej Sawhney. We have a team based in Las Vegas. I've been based in Las Vegas for about five years. But I was born and raised in central New Jersey, in Princeton. And my co-founder is Yo Sup Quan. We started this company about seven months ago and my co-founder's background was he's the co-founder of Coin Sighter in Exchange out of New York, which exited to Kraken. After that he started Launch Key which exited to Iovation. And prior to this company, my previous company was Zuldi, Z-U-L-D-I .com where we had a mobile point of sale system specifically for high volume food and beverage companies and businesses. So we were focused on Fintech and mobile point of sale and payment processing. So both of us have a unique background in both Fintech and cyber-security and my co-founder Yo, he's a managing partner of a crypto hedge fund named Pink Sky Capital. And he was doing diligence for Pink Sky, and he realized that the quality of the smart contracts he was seeing for deals that he wanted to participate as an investor in, and I'm an advisor in that hedge fund, we both realized that essentially the quality of these smart contracts is extremely low. And that there was nobody in this space that we saw laser focused on just blockchain security. And all the solutions that would be entailed in there. And so we began focusing on just auditing smart contracts, doing a line-by-line code review of each smart contract that's written, conducting a GAS analysis, and conducting a static analysis, making sure that the smart contract does what the white paper says, and then putting a seal of approval on that smart contract to mitigate risk. So that the code has not been changed once we've done an analysis of it, that there's no security vulnerabilities in this code, and that we can mitigate the risks for exchanges and for investors that someone has done a thorough code analysis of this. That there's no chance that this is going to be hacked, that money won't be stolen, money won't be lost, and that there's no chance of a security vulnerability on this. And we put our company's name and reputation on this. >> And what was the problem that is the alternative to that? Was there just poorly written code? Was it updated code? Was it gas was too expensive? They were doing off-chain transactions. I mean what are some of the dynamics that lead you guys down this path? I mean this makes sense. You're kind of underwriting the code, or you're ensuring it or I don't know what you call it, but essentially verifying it. What was the problem? And what were some of the use cases of problems? >> I would say that the underlying problem today in this whole industry, of the blockchain space, is that the most commonly found blockchain is Ethereum. The language behind Ethereum is called Solidity. Solidity is a brand new software language that very few people in the world are sufficient programmers in Solidity. On top of that, Solidity is updated, as a language on a weekly basis. So there are a very limited number of engineers in the world who are full-stack engineers, that have studied and understand Solidity, that have a security background, and have a QA mindset. Everything that I just said does exist on this Earth today and if it does, there's a chance that that person has made too much money to want to get out of bed. Because Ethereum's price has gone up. So the quality of smart contracts that we're seeing being written by even development shops, the developers building them are actually not full-stack engineers, they're web developers who have learned the language Solidity and so thus we believe that the quality of the code has been significantly low. We're finding lots of critical vulnerabilities. In fact, 100% of the time that Hosho has audited code for a smart contract, we have found at least a couple of vulnerabilities. Even as a second or the third auditor after other companies conduct an audit, we always find a vulnerability. >> And is it correct that Solidity is much more easy to work with than say, Bitcoin scripting language, so you can do a lot more with it, so you're getting a lot more, I don't want to say rogue code, but maybe that's what it is. Is that right? Is that the nature of the theory? >> Compared to Bitcoin script, yes. But compared to JavaScript, no. Because Fortune 500 companies have rooms full of Java engineers, Java developers. And now the newer blockchains are being written, are being written on in block JavaScript, right? So you have IBM's Hyperledger program, you have EOS, you have ICX, Cardano, Stellar, Waves, Neo, there's so many new projects that are coming, that all of them are flexing about the same thing. Including Rootstock, RSK. RSK is a project where they're allowing smart contracts to be tied to the Bitcoin blockchain for the first time ever. Right, so Fortune 500 companies may take advantage of the fact that they have Java developers to take advantage of already, that already work for them, who could easily write to a new blockchain, and possibly these new blockchains are more enterprise grade and able to take more institutional capital. But only time will tell. And us as the auditor, we want to see more code from these newer blockchains, and we want to see more developers actually put in commits. Because it's what matters the most, is where are the developers putting in commits and right now maximum developers are on the Ethereum blockchain. >> Is that, the numbers I mean. Just take a step there. So the theory of blockchain. Percentage of developers vis-a-vis other platforms percentages-- >> By far the most is on developed on Ethereum. >> And in terms of code, obviously the efficiencies that are not yet realized, 'cause there's not enough cycles of coding going on, it's evolution, right? >> Yes. >> Seems to be the problem, wouldn't you say? So a combination of full-stack developer requirements, >> Yes. >> To people who aren't proficient in all levels of the stack. >> Yes. >> Just are inefficient in the coding. It's not a ding on the developers, it's just they're writing code and they miss something, right? Or maybe they're not sufficient in the language-- >> It's a new language. The functions are being updated on a weekly basis, so sometimes you copied and pasted a part of another contract, that came from a very sophisticated project, so they'll say to us, well we copied and pasted this portion from EOS, so it should be great. But what that's leading to is either A, they're using a function that's now outdated, or B, by copying and pasting someone else's code from their smart contract, this smart contract is no longer doing what you intended it to do. >> So now Hartej, how much of your capability is human versus machine? >> Yeah I was going to ask that. >> ML, AI type stuff? >> So we're increasingly becoming automated, but because of the over, there's so much demand in the space. And we've had so much demand to consistently conduct audits, it's tough to pull my engineers away from conducting an audit to work on the tooling to automate the audit, right? And so we are building a lot of proprietary tooling to speed up the process, to automate conducting a GAS analysis, where we make sure you're not clogging up the blockchain by using too much GAS. Static analysis, we're trying to automate that as fast as possible. But what's a bit more difficult to automate, at least right now, is when we have a qualified full-stack engineer read the white paper or the source of truth and make sure the smart contract actually does it, that is, it's a bit longer tail where you're leveraging machine learning and AI to make that fully automated. (talking over each other) >> But maybe is that, I'm sorry John. Is that the long term model or do you think you can actually, I mean there's people that say augmented intelligence is going to be a combination of humans and machines, what do you think? >> I think it's going to be a combination for a long time. Every single day that we audit code, our process gets faster and faster and faster because once we find a vulnerability, finding that same vulnerability next time will be faster and easier and faster and easier. And so as time goes on, we see it as, since the bundle of our work today is ICOs, token generation events, there are ERC 20 tokens on the Ethereum blockchain. And we don't know how long this party will last. Like maybe in a couple years or a couple months, we have a big twist in the ICO space that the numbers will drastically go down. The long tail of Hosho's business for us, is to keep track of people writing smart contracts, period. But we think they are going to become more functional smart contracts where the entire business is on a smart contract and they've cut out sophisticated middle men. Right and it may be less ICOs, and in those cases I mean, if you're a publicly traded company, and you're going from R&D phase where you wrote a smart contract and now actually going to deploy it, I think the publicly traded company's going to do three to five audits. They're going to do multiple audits and take security as a very major concern. And in the space today, security is not being discussed nearly as much as it should. We have the best hedge funds cutting checks into companies, before the smart contract is even written, let alone audited. And so we're trying to partner with all the biggest hedge funds and tell the hedge funds to mandate that if you cut a check into a company that is going to do a token generation event, that they need to guarantee that they're going to at least value security, both in-house for the company and for the smart contract that's going to be written. >> How much do you charge for this? I mean just ballpark. Is it a range of purchase price, sales price? What's the average engagement go for, is it on a scope of work? Statement of work? Or is it license? I mean how does it work? >> So first it depends is it a penetration test of the website or the exchange? Penetration testing of exchanges are far more complex than just a website. Or if it's a smart contract audit, is it an ICO or is it a functional smart contract? In either case for the smart contract audit, we have to build a long set of custom tooling to attack each and every smart contract. So it's definitely very case-by-case. But a ballpark that we could maybe give is somewhere around the lines of 10 to 15 thousand dollars per 100 lines of functional code. And we ask for about three weeks of lead time for both a smart contract audit and a penetration test. And surprisingly in this space, some of the highest caliber companies and high caliber projects with the best teams, are coming to us far too late to get a security audit and a penetration test. So after months of fundraising and a private pre-sale and another pre-sale, and going and throwing parties and events and conferences to increase the excitement for participating in their token sale, what we think is the most important part, the security audit for a smart contract is left to the last week before your ICO. And a ridiculous number of companies are coming to us within seven days of the token sale, >> John: Scrambling. >> Scrambling, and we're saying but we've seen you at seven conferences, I think that we need to delay your ICO by two or three weeks. We can assure you that all of your investors will say thank you for valuing security, because this is irreversible. Once this goes live and the smart contract is deployed. >> Horse is out of the barn. >> It's irreversible. >> Right right. >> And once we seal the code, no one should touch it. >> It's always the case with security, it's bolted on at the last minute. >> It's like back road recovery too, oh we'll just back it up. It's an architectural decision we should have made that months ago. So question for you, the smart contract, because again I'm just getting my wires crossed, 'cause there's levels of smart contracts. So if we, hypothetical ICO or we're doing smart contracts for our audience that's going to come out soon. But see that's more transactional. There's security token sales, >> Yes. >> That are essentially, can be ERC 20 tokens, and that's not huge numbers. It could be big, but not massive. Not a lot transaction costs. That's a contract, right? That's a smart contract? >> People are writing smart contracts to conduct a token generational event, most commonly for an ERC 20 token, that's correct. >> Okay so that's the big, I call that the big enchilada. That's the big-- >> Right now that is the most important, the most common. >> Okay so as you go in the future, I can envision a day where in our community, people going to be doing smart contracts peer-to-peer. >> Sure. >> How does that work? Is that a boiler plate? Is is audited, then it's going to be audited every time? Do the smart contracts get smaller? I mean what's your vision on that? Because we are envisioning a day where people in our audience will say hey Hartej, let's do a white paper together, let's write it together, have a handshake, do a smart contract click, click. Lock it in. And charge a dollar a download, get a million downloads, we split it. >> I envision a day where you can have a more drag and drop smart contract and not need a technical developer to be a full-stack engineer to have to write your smart contract. Yes I totally envision that day. >> John: But that's not today. >> We are very far from that today. >> Dave, kill that project. >> We're so far, we're very far from that. We're light years far from that. >> Okay well look. If we can't eliminate the full-stack engineers, I'm okay with that. Can we eliminate the lawyers? At least minimize them. >> We can minimize them possibly, but we have five stacks of lawyers for our company, I don't see them going anywhere. We need lawyers all the time. >> I see that in the press sometimes, yeah it's going to get disrupted. I don't see it happening. Okay we were having a great conversation off-camera about what makes a good ICO. You see, you have a huge observation space. And you were very opinionated. A lot of companies are out there just floating a token because they're trying to raise money. And they could do the same thing with Ethereum or Bitcoin. >> That's correct. >> Your thoughts? >> My thoughts are that it's very important for companies who are sophisticated, I think, to start by giving away a little bit of equity in the business. And that if you want to be in the blockchain space, and you really firmly believe you have a model to have a token within a decentralized application, I would still start by finding quality investors in the space, in the world. They might be still in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley didn't just disappear overnight now that the blockchain is out. I am all for the fact that Silicon Valley no longer has as much of a grip on tech because of their blockchain world. And they're not seeing as much deal flow, and there's not as much reliance on venture capitalists, that's exciting to me. But let's not forget the value, that top-tier VCs like Andreessen Horowitz and Vinod Khosla. and Fintech VCs like Commerce Ventures and Nyca Partners in New York, Propel VC, these are good Fintech VC arms that continue to time and time again add immense value to companies. >> And they have networks. They add value. >> They have strong-valued networks, but they're just not going to disappear. And those VCs, if they've invested into a company, took a board seat, fostered their growth, taught them what it means to actually be a real business that's growing at 7-15% week over week, maybe two years down the line, after they've given away a board seat to someone like Nyca Partners, I would be interested in understanding what your token economics look like. Now that you have a revenue generating business, how you've placed a token model into this already running business that makes 25 to 50 grand a month and you have a team of 10, self-sustaining themselves off of revenue. Much more intriguing of a conversation. What's happening today in the space is, hey my buddy Jim and Steve and I came up with an idea for this business. There's going to be a token, and we're starting a private pre-sale tomorrow. I'm going to give you 300% bonus and will you be my advisor? And they're going to start raising capital because of an idea. You know what we used to say in the Silicon Valley startup world, you can raise on just a PowerPoint. I think in the blockchain world, you could raise on just an idea? And then maybe a white paper? And the white paper is one page? And so you've raised a bunch of capital, you have a white paper. >> Now you got to build it. >> Now you got to build, you got to write a smart contract, you got to build it, you got to do it, and then everyone loses excitement and it goes back to our previous conversation the development talent. So, another thing not being discussed in the space is company employee retention, right? So if you have a growing number of ICOs, that have very large budgets because investors have found a way to sink millions of dollars into a company early, you've got $5 million in the hands of a company to start, well this company can afford to pay someone a very ridiculous salary to come join them to write the smart contract now. So they could offer an engineer 500 Eth a month to come join them for three months. So you have good engineers just bouncing from one ICO to the next and as soon as the ICO goes live, they quit. This is a problem to companies who are-- >> It's migration, out migration. >> How do you retain, even capital? >> Companies like Hosho, ShapeShift, companies that are selling picks and shovels of the industry, that want to be household names in the space, we have to really think about how we're going to retain our employees in the space. >> So the recruitment and bringing on the new generation, we were also talking off camera about Bill Tye and the younger generation and kind of riffing on the notion that, because there is a new set of mission-driven developers and builders, on the business side as well. Your thoughts and reaction to what you see and what you see that's good and what you see that we need more of? >> So the most powerful thing in the blockchain space that I think is so exciting is that you have a lot of people between the age of 25 and 35 that don't come from money, that didn't go to Stanford, didn't go to Y Combinator, they're probably not white, from-- >> John: Ivy League schools. >> Ivy League schools. I'm not trying to make it about race, but if you're a white male and went to Stanford and went to Y Combinator, chances of you raising VC money on sand hill are a lot higher, right? And you have a guy looking like me who didn't go to Stanford, doesn't come from money, running up and down sand hill, I have personally faced that battle and it wasn't easy. And we were based in Vegas and so being based in Vegas, I'd also have to deal with so why do you live in Vegas? When are you going to move to Silicon Valley? And if we invest in you, you're going to open an office in sand hill right? And now in the blockchain world, what's exciting is you have so many heavy-hitters running as founders, some of the most successful companies in the space, who don't come from money and a big prestigious background, but they're honest, they're hard-working, they're putting in 12 to 15 hours of work every single day, seven days a week. And to space, six weeks is like six years. And we all have a level of trust that goes back to times when we were all running struggling startups. And so our bond is, to me, even more significant than what must have been between Keith Rabois and Peter Thiel in the PayPal Mafia. We have our own mafias being formed of much stronger bonds of younger people who will be able to share much more significant deal flow so if the PayPal Mafia was able to join forces to punch out companies like eBay and Square, wait 'til companies in this space, we have young, heavy-hitters right now who are non-reliant on some of the more traditional older folks. Wait 'til you see what happens in the next couple years. >> Hartej, great conversation. And I want to get one more question in. We've seen Keiretsu Forum, mafias, teams more than ever as community becomes an integral part of vetting and by the way trust, you have unwritten rules. I mean baseball, Dave and I used to do sports analogies. >> Self-governance. >> Reggie Jackson talked about unwritten rules and it works. If you beam the batter, the other guy, your best star, your side's going to get beamed. That's an unwritten rule. These are what keeps things going, balanced through the course of a season. What are the unwritten rules in the Ethos right now? >> Honesty, transparency, and that's the key. We need self-governance. This is a very unregulated market. There's rules being broken by people who are ignorant to the rules. The most common rule I've seen being broken is by people who are not broker dealers, running around fundraising capital, they don't even know what an institutional advisor license is. They don't know what a Series 7 and a Series 63 is. I asked a guy just last night, he said I'm pooling capital, I'm syndicating, let me know if you want in on the deal. And I said when did you take your Series 7? He goes what's that? Get away from me. You're an American, you need to look up what US securities laws are and make sure that you're playing by the rules and if someone who doesn't know the rules has entered our inner circle of investors, of advisors, of people sharing deal flow, we have a good network of people that are closing the loop for companies, whether it's lawyers, investors, exchanges, security auditors, people who write smart contracts, dev shops, people who write white papers, PR marketing, people who do the road show, there's a full circle-- >> So people are actually doing work to put into the community, to know your neighbor if you will, know the deals that are going down, to identify potential trip wires that are being established by either bad actors or-- >> KYC, AML, this is a new space that's also attracting people that have a criminal background. Right? And that's just a harsh reality of the space. That in the United States if you have a felony on your record, maybe getting a job has become really difficult and you figured let's do an ICO, no one's going to check my record. That is a reality of the space. Another reality is the money that was invested into this entire ICO clean. Right, that's a massive issue for the US government right now. It's been less than 15 hours since the SEC has issued actually subpoenas to people on this exact topic, today. >> This is a great topic, we'd like to do more on. >> Dozens of them. >> We'd like to continue to keep in touch with you on The Cube. Obviously you're welcome anytime, loved your insight. Certainly we'd love to have you be an advisor on our mission, you're welcome anytime. >> For sure, let's talk about it. Come out to Las Vegas. Hosho's always happy to host you. >> John And Dave: We're there all the time. >> The Cube lives at the sands. >> It's our second home. >> Come by Hosho's office and let us know. Vegas is our home. We are hosting a conference in Vegas after DEFCON. So DEFCON is the biggest security conference in the world. You have the best black hats and white hats show up as security experts in Vegas and right on the tail end of it, Hosho's going to host a very exclusive invite-only conference. >> What's it called? Just Hosho Conference? >> Just Blockchain. It'll be called the just, it'll be by the Just Blockchain Group and Hosho's the main backer behind it. >> Well we appreciate your integrity and your sharing here on The Cube, and again you're paying it forward in the community, that's great. Ethos we love that. That's our mission here, paying it forward content. Here in the Bahamas. Live coverage here at PolyCon 18. We're talking about securitized token, a decentralized future for awesome things happening. I'm Jeff Furrier, Dave Vellante. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat dramatic music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to the Cube Conversation, here in Palo Alto Studios, for The Cube. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of The Cube, co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. We are here for Thought Leader Thursday, with Mitzi Chang. She's a securities attorney and partner at Goodwin. Formerly Goodwin Proctor, Goodwin Proctor's the name. Again, great to have you on. Thanks for coming in and talking about some of the securities around Blockchain ICO's. You guys doing a lot of work, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, obviously, Blockchain is the hottest thing we're seeing. AI, obviously, is hot as well, IOT, all of this about a new, decentralized internet. And it's the wild west. And we know because we're looking at doing our Blockchain and tokens for The Cube and all that good stuff. So we're totally love the new environment. Everyone, all the light tier one entrepreneurs are licking their chops and going, ah, man, good action. And a lot of the thought leaders are saying this is a fundamental shift. So it's cool, we get that. But now, okay, is the technology ahead of the law? And, just today, the news is breaking that the SEC is now putting a clampdown on a new thing, celebrity endorsements, into ICO's initial coin offering. So, yeah, you're a securities attorney. You have to sit back there and, like, wire these deals together. >> Right. >> What's going on, I mean, is the law behind the tech? How are you guys managing it, what's the flow look like for you? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that the law is almost always behind the technology, right. That's just how it works. I mean, from our perspective, you know, we represent tons of companies on normal securities law, or securities issuances. And this can be similar, depending on how the token is structured. So, you know, the SEC said in its July guidance that tokens can be securities, depending on the facts. A part of what we do, as lawyers, is review the facts of the token, right. What does the token do, how do you treat the token, how are you issuing the token, how are you marketing the token? Are there securities-like features of the token? So, for example. Does it have profit sharing features? Does it have voting features? Those are pretty obviously more security-like features. But, also, you know, in the token ecosystem, are you treating it like you would equity? So, for example, you know, are you putting vesting conditions on there? Are you marketing it to VC's who may never use your network? Those are some factors that make it look like more security. Versus a utility. >> You guys also, I mean, I've been in Silicon Valley now 18 years, and been an entrepreneur for longer, and entrepreneurs are always three feet in a cloud of dust, breaking things in the bowl in the China shop, as they say, and have to get the lawyers to kind of clean things up or set things straight. Securities is a known practice, but now there's some kind of bumps in the road but still people are moving forward. So I got to ask you, what's the test? I mean, we hear things like the Howey Test. >> Mm hmm. >> What are some of the things that entrepreneurs should know around where to pay attention? Kind of where to put their head down and drive because there are known practices, on the security site you mentioned, a few of them, but where's the test? What's the one thing, is it the Howey Test? What is this Howey Test concept? And what other things should entrepreneurs know about? >> Right, so I think, you know, the Howey Test is a test that was in CaseLab that basically explains what is an investment contract. And an investment contract is what is considered a security. So, basically, the payment of money, you know, based on the efforts of others, where you kind of have the reasonable expectation of obtaining profits, right, from those efforts of others, versus yourself. So that's the general gist of it. So I think, from a securities law perspective, that's really important. Because there has been so much focus from the SEC. But there's also other regulatory agencies who are focused on this. Some of those are, you know, money transmitter laws. You know, there's potential commodities law issues. So there's definitely other regulatory regimes that could implicate the token. Or the token could be implicated in that regime. But I think the securities law one is one that I focus on. >> Yeah. >> And it's important to look at. >> Alright, so the first test is, okay, obviously, new internet infrastructure, different conversation, but the real law test is, is this token going to be an investment making money. >> Right. >> Or is it going to be a utility. One that provides values to the participants. Did I get that right? >> Yes, I would say, generally speaking, right. Is the token, you know, is it a use case? Or is it an investment? Am I expecting profits from that token? Or am I using it like an access fee or a membership? Or to obtain services. >> An arcade game, as Grant Fonda would say. >> Exactly. An arcade game is probably your best example. >> Yeah. Okay, so then the next test is I've heard of some things I'd like to get you to explain. What anti-money laundering or AML is. And KYC, Know Your Customer. And, obviously, Bitcoin has been kind of, you know, we've heard Silk Road stories, underbelly, a lot of bad things are happening, but anonymous is good. But here, financially, Know Your Customer is a specific thing that means something and then AML, anti-money laundering, how does that factor into this whole thing? >> Yeah, so I think for, you know, when you open a bank account, for example, right, your bank wants to know who you are. They'll obtain certain information from you. Whether it's your drivers license or passport. Where you obtained your funds. I mean, that's part of the Know Your Customer, anti-money laundering activity, right. >> And identity behind the, before you sign the thing. >> Right. So part of it is because cryptocurrency can be very anonymous, right. There are anonymous wallets that you're sending cryptocurrency to and from, you don't know who these people are. So part of it is making sure that you understand who your purchasers are. You don't want to run afoul of, you know, an anti-terrorist type, you know, regulations. The US government has several lists that they have online that you can search for names of folks that you don't need to be doing business with. So there's a lot of structures already in place. And part of that is just understanding who your purchasers are. >> And these are requirements on certain things, and the anti-money laundering exposes just audit trailing and certain things that you got to have as compliance things. >> Correct, correct. And so I think, in America, we don't normally, I would say if you were kind of outside of the US, this is probably a little bit more normal, right. People are used to doing it. I think, in America, maybe we're not as used to it. But these are not kind of new guidelines. This has always existed. >> Alright, so sometimes entrepreneurs are fast and loose with their, ah, screw the anti-money laundering thing. Or they get, I don't understand, that's too much work, I don't understand it. >> Yeah. >> So they blow it off. When do they have to not blow it off? When do you have to worry about, like, all these anti-money laundering things? Cause you have to, obviously, do more work. >> Right. >> Got to make sure you're checking the boxes, complying. That probably has overhead, costs money, or maybe write some new software. So we've been recommending that all of our clients who are in the token space and kind of obtaining, you know, digital currency, go through KYC and AML. Some of the digital currency exchanges, right. So in order, when you're receiving your digital currency and you need an account, >> Mm hmm. >> in order to exchange the digital currency into US dollars, for example, it's essentially like opening a bank account. So they're going to ask for all of the information with respect to how did you receive your digital currency. So part of that is you need to have that in place prior to actually launching your token sale so that you can kind of follow the flow of funds. >> So I was trying to find this image I would put up but I can't find it cause I'm on this computer, but I saw a thing on a conference, might have been Block Con, that you guys were at. I think you guys sponsored that event. Where the cost of doing an ICO can range from, they said, on the cheap end, they use the word cheap, not inexpensive, cheap, probably implying not get a good lawyer, a hundred K up to 750 thousand dollars. So, range of cost between hundred thousand and 750 thousand. From cheap to done right. >> Right. Right. >> Or expensive. Is that right or is that, what's the cost ranges? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of players in the ecosystem, right. So there's the lawyers. And typically lawyers bill by the hour, so that's kind of how much time, you know, we're kind of looking at documents and things and helping you structure. There's the tax accountants. So part of that is also, you know, how much time they're spending. But some of it can be very complicated from a tax structuring perspective. Then there's the technical people, right. Unless you have that in house. To actually build your Blockchain network. Kind of help you with all of that, you know, the technical aspects of it. So software engineers, for example. Then there's the ICO consultants. Someone to kind of help you manage, quarterback the process, maybe help you with marketing the tokens to certain different websites, or help you with that. So, all of those together, I mean, yes, it can be very expensive, it kind of depends on how much of that you want to outsource. And how much of that you can do yourself. Obviously, you can't really do all that stuff yourself. >> So it's in the ranges. It could be in the ranges. >> Yeah. I mean, tax alone could kill you if you're looking at all kinds of complicated schemes or licensing agreements. >> Right. >> I mean. >> So all that, you want to make sure you're structuring the entity appropriately before you start it. >> Okay, so where do you get involved? So let's just say that, let's just walk through the day and day operations of, say, Goodwin. Okay, I've got to client. >> Yep. >> And, okay, you come in for the securities component. What does that mean? You just make sure they're incorporated properly? All the laws on the stock and then the tokens treatment? What specific things do you do? >> Sure, so, you know, once we kind of have brought the client in, after our conflicts procedures, and we've agreed to the engagement, part of depends on where they are. If they don't have a company, we'll help you form the company, right. And make sure that all of those startup documents have been appropriately done. Sometimes people have already, they're, you know, an actual company, right. We don't need to form them, they're already in existence. So then we look at pass the formation items and we look at the token issuance. So we'll look at your white paper. The white paper typically describes how the token works in the ecosystem and kind of what the company. >> You get involved in that, just to kind of check if it sounds. >> From a structuring perspective, right. Do we think this is a security? Or do we think it is leaning towards utility? And the SEC obviously has not said, what is a utility and what is a security. >> So that's the gray area? >> Yes. >> So the gray area is watch the language, be careful what you say. >> But also what you do, right. It's not just what you say, it's also what you do. So part of it is talking to the clients about what are you thinking, how are you envisioning this? Where can we help you kind of restructure or decrease your risks? >> And you guys become a safety net and help defend that too, obviously, as attorneys. But the clients still own, >> Correct. I mean, part of it is we give you advice. And the clients can take or not take our advice. But that's what we're here for. >> Do you guys offer a legal opinions behind these? I'm sure you don't. (laughs) >> We don't offer legal opinions. You know, we do do research memos on kind of where we think your token lies. But we don't do legal opinions. >> So have you guys talked to the SEC at Goodwin? I mean, do you guys have conversations? I don't know what goes on behind the curtain of the big law firms but I'm assuming that you guys are up to speed on all the notes and everything, but do you guys actually talk to people at the SEC? Is that how it works? Cause this is a cutting edge area, I'm sure you guys have to be on the cutting edge. >> Yeah, I mean we haven't had any clients, knock on wood, that have had to go through any of the SEC investigations on this. So, you know, we have not had, on behalf of our clients, had to talk to them about it. >> So that's good news, you guys doing good. >> Yeah. >> I know you guys doing over close to 30 plus ICO's, so congratulations. Is there a pattern that you've seen, from a legal standpoint, that you've seen emerging? Obviously, it's pretty clear, out in the market place, certainly the celebrity endorsement, Paris Hilton to the boxer dude and all kinds of stuff was going on where people were endorsing >> Right. >> things, so. Kind of, I don't want to say pump and dump, but that's a word that's been used in the dot com bubble, but people are saying a lot of these things are scams. And the majority of them aren't going to work out. So we've said, editorially here on The Cube and Silicon Angle, that failure doesn't mean scams. We had some failures, but certainly there are some scams. So has that caused people to pull back a little bit? And say, whoa, we're not going to go forward fast enough? Or is nothing stopping this, what's the pattern? >> Yeah, I would say, compared to a year ago, where there was no SEC guidance, right, there was no guidance from other regulator agencies, people were definitely going very quickly. I think now what we're seeing are more sophisticated clients. Clients who really want to make sure that they're following all of the legal requirements to the best that they can, given the grayness in the securities laws and other regimes. And a lot more of a thoughtfulness about, well, let's make sure that this works, right, we're not going to get into trouble. >> Have you seen any co-mingling between some of the traditional VC, venture capital investors or hedge funds, they're emerging, who want to come in and participate on the pure equity side, or the preferred stock or, more common, mostly prefer we see them. But, also, play in the tokens. Is there co-existence between participation? Or is it mostly they line up on the preferred and then let the tokens go here? Is there a pattern there that you see around how those securities are playing out? >> Yeah, I think a lot of people see value in the token ecosystem and they want to participate in that. And a lot of our venture capital clients, or our token clients who have VC investors, they want to participate. So we are definitely seeing people are very excited about it and want to kind of be a part of it. >> What about the presale concept? We're seeing a lot of people jump on the presale bandwagon because it allows them to, you know. It's not an inexpensive process. You guys, obviously, don't work for free. You guys have deals where, obviously, startups can come in. And you guys have a great startup program, I could testify that. You guys do have a good community participation there. But, at the end of the day, this is a legitimate process now. >> Mm Hmm. >> It costs money. You guys have to get paid. And service provides, like the tax attorneys got to get paid. So there's a lot, we see a lot of entrepreneurs doing that's presale. Where they try to offer this kind of discount. How is that working out and has that been going well? >> Yeah, I mean I think, you know, while the SEC has not commented on this, the practitioners and kind of the ecosystem, most people, I think, are considering that presale agreement prior to a network actually being live as a security. And, so, people are going out to accredited investors, sometimes that's VC, sometimes that's high net worth individuals. That's usually done through a SAFT, which is, it stands for Simple Agreement for Future Tokens, or a presale contribution agreement. So part of that is it's like a, you can liken it to a preferred stock financing. >> It's a known process. >> But it's not preferred stock. >> But it's a known vehicle for financing. >> Correct. >> It's not like it's tied to the ICO in a new vehicle. It's just like, okay, we're going to do something down the road, there's risks associated, all that stuff. >> Right, it's an investment contract. I'm giving you a million dollars to invest, to build up the platform. At the end of, when the platform launches, and, hopefully, when the network has utility and your token has utility, then you'll receive tokens. >> And this is good for innovation, because it gets everyone rolling a little bit. Is that, that kind of seems to be the pattern that I'm seeing. It's like, you know. >> It's basically like a seed round, alright. That's probably a really good example, is it's a seed round to get something started. That thing is not your company, it is your network. >> And it also sets the community. I've noticed on the Blockchain, these ICO communities are a very bit part of it. Goodwin's got a great reputation, certainly here in Silicon Valley, and around the world, as a law firm. This is a big part of it. So the presale's also kind of a gesture of credibility for the opportunity and I think, I mean, you know, people I talk to are like, hey, I look at what's going on in the presale, kind of as an indicator of who's involved, judged by the company that you keep kind of thing. So that's interesting. Have you seen that presale dominating more than just going right to the ICO, given the market conditions of all the ICO's? >> Yeah, I mean I think it depends, right. Some of our clients have existing businesses, right. Where this is very complimentary. The Blockchain network is complimentary to their existing business and, so, they may not need to have this big presale, right. Part of the presale could be two weeks before your general crowd sale. You have folks who kind of get in early. To me, that is not necessarily, I mean, it really depends, obviously, fact-specific, but that's a little big different that doing a, quote, presale agreement. Like a year before or six months before your token launch. That's a little bit different. >> Yeah, so also you brought up a good point. Existing businesses versus kind of like people who just need the cash to get going. >> Right. >> We're seeing a lot of companies that either have a successful business, like Kik and then Kik Kin Token was once example, we talk about all the time. The other one is pivots. We're seeing a lot of entrepreneurs take companies that were pivots, AKA, going out of business, where the token timing of a token in decentralized Blockchain actually is great for their business model. And they have to, essentially, go recap or do some securities, you know, resetting. That's your world, right? You got to get involved in those areas. >> Yeah, I mean, I think anything that has to do with kind of changing your capital structure, right, you should have your securities lawyer or your corporate lawyer involved. Because that'll obviously impact your securities law. You know, exemptions that you're taking, you know, typically from a private placement exemption, for most of our private company clients. >> Is there any new trends that are popping out of that kind of pivot or, wow, this is really, you know, I was out there, I got some funding from Y Combinator, or some sort of venture, and we're kind of just barely staying alive. This Blockchain could really accelerate, there's now momentum. Is there any trends that you see, from your work standpoint, where you have, that are happen, that are obvious new things that are coming out of this? Or is it a standard recap to cap table, normal corporate work? >> I think there is a tension, right, between doing a normal stock finance, preferred stock, or common stock financing that, you know, whatever you would typically do. Whether that's a convertible security or a convertible note. And then raising funds through a token sale. And so, from my perspective, it's obviously cleaner to do it the traditional way. Because you're not dealing with unclear SEC rules, right. It's very clear how you do a preferred stock financing. We do that every day. So to the extent that companies are in that position where they can choose, it's certainly cleaner to do it the traditional way. >> If you pull off an ICO, god bless you. It's certainly equity-free, tokens. There's no equity to token, if you're a utility token. >> Right. >> Okay, so I was reading about the Delaware, Delaware was allowing companies to use Blockchain. >> Mm hmm. >> This is right up your alley. So, they're not doing ICO's. So can you clarity the Delaware situation relative to Blockchain, cause they're using a Blockchain from a ledger standpoint, but it's not an ICO haven yet. So talk about the Delaware situation. >> Correct, so the Delaware amendments, which I believe are now approved, as of a couple of months ago, over the summer, essentially allow the cap table ledger to be on the Blockchain. So they're kind of ahead of everything, right. Because, you know. So, for like, for example, a few years ago, no one had uncertificated stock certificates. Everybody wanted the physical stock certificates. And now most companies, that we represent, >> They want digital. >> Exactly, digital, uncertificated stock certificates. But there is a ledger and there is a record of it. You just don't have the fancy paper with the pretty legend on it. So I think technology is moving and the law needs to as well. So part of that is Delaware kind of getting onboard. >> Delaware's got a great opportunity, they can nail the ICO's. Well, Mitzi, thanks for coming, I really appreciate it. Any other observations that you'd like, that you see in the market that you'd like to share? Take a minute to talk about what you're doing at Goodwin, as well. What's going on, what's happening? >> Yeah, I mean I think it's a really exciting time, we're really excited to be a part of it. It's cutting edge work. I think that there's a lot of, I guess, what I would call kind of your more traditional clients that we have, that we take calls from every day. Whether that's investment banks, or VC funds, private equity funds, or just our venture backed companies that are curious as to what is this all about. >> Yeah. >> So I think it's really exciting and I'm glad to be a part of it. I don't think that it is going to stop. I think that certainly there's likely to be more regulation about how you do one of these ICO's, one of these token generation events, you know, within the confines of the law. But I don't see it stopping. >> You don't see it stopping at all? >> No, I mean I think once there's more regulation, there'll be more clarity about how to do it. And how to do it within the confines of the law, which we try to do, obviously, you know, given that there's not a ton of clear guidance. But I think that, I think the ship has sailed. >> Yeah, well this is a great conversation here with Goodwin, formerly Goodwin Proctor, Mitzi Chang, partner, she's a securities attorney. We should call this show Billable Hours. Because we're getting some free legal opinions and conversations, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Blockchain is hot, entrepreneurs are using it. All the top tier one entrepreneurs are looking at this. Great opportunity, similar with the Web One dato, the TC IP era of the internet, Blockchain. It's fundamental infrastructure for the future of decentralization, so. Great opportunities, causing lots of innovation. Check with your attorneys, obviously Goodwin, and a few others all doing great ICO's. Great potential fundraising, but also great business opportunities. Thanks again, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> So Cube Conversations here, in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Austin, Texas. It's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its Ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and joining me, my co-host, for the second day of theCube's program, Jim Kobielus. Really excited to have, not only the founder of Docker, Solomon Hykes, he's also the CTO, Chief Product Officer, did some keynotes here, all over the place. So, Solomon, thank you so much, thanks for havin' us. Congratulations on all the progress and welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thanks a lot! It's a lot of fun! >> So many things to talk about, but let's start with you. How ya doin'? I'm sure there's so much that went into this week. What are you most proud of? What are you most excited about these days? >> Where to start? The cool thing, for me, about DockerCon is I focus on the keynote. We just package up the nice story, try to explain what we're doing, where we're going, and that's a pretty massive team effort. I think it's 30 of us for months preparing, deciding what we want to talk about, working on demos, pulling all-nighters. It's just really fun to see a keynote go from nothing to a really nice, fun story. Then I get to show up and discover all the other cool stuff. I'm like everyone else. I just marvel at the organization, the crowd, the energy. I'm a happy camper right now. >> It's interesting some of the dynamics in the industry. Okay, what's the important part? Who contributes to what? What fits where? Two years ago we had the hugging out as to the runtime and had the Open Source Foundation step in. Big thing at the keynote yesterday, two big things: it was Moby project and Linux Kit. Can you, maybe, unpack for our audience a little bit? What is Docker, the company? What's the Open Source? Who are some of the main players? It was the whole keynote, so we don't have time to get into it. What's real, and what was there? >> You're right, that was the big announcement, the Moby Project. Basically, in a nutshell, we launched Docker and we made it a product and an open source project, all rolled into one. We just kind of adopted this hybrid model, building a product that would just help people be more efficient, developers and ops, and at the same time, we would develop that in the open. That really helped us. It participated in the appearance of this huge Ecosystem. It was a big decision for us. Over time, both grew. Docker grew as a product, and it grew as an open source project. So over time we had to adapt to that growth. On the open source side that meant gradually spitting out smaller projects out of the main one. Now we have dozens of projects, literally. We got containerd. We got SwarmKit. We got InfraKit. We got all these components, and each of those is a project. Then we integrate them. What we're doing now, is we're completing that transformation and making sure there's a place for open source collaboration, free-for-all, openness, modularity, try new things, move fast, break things maybe. Then there's the product that integrates, takes the best parts, integrates them together, makes sure they're tested, they're solid, and then ships that to developers and customers. Basically we're saying, Moby is for open source collaboration. It's our project and all of it. And Docker is the product that integrates that open project into something that people can consume that's simple. It's two complementary parts to our platform. >> Could you talk a little bit about, there's kind of that composable nature of what you're building there. There's what Docker will build from it, and I think you've got a couple of examples of some of your partners. What's going to happen in the Cloud? What's going to happen with some of these others? Walk us through one of those. >> Everything about Docker's modular. So really, if you installed Docker for your favorite platform, whether it's the Mac, Windows, your favorite Cloud provider, Linux server, etc., you're actually installing a product that's an assembly of lots of components. Like I said, these components are developed in the open and then they're assembled. Now with the Moby Project, there's a place to assemble in the open, start the assembly in the open, so that other companies, the broader Ecosystem, can collaborate in the assembly, kind of experiment with how things fit together. The really cool thing about that is it makes it way easier to ports the platform, to expand it and customize it. So if you're a Cloud provider and you see all the pieces and you think "Well, I could optimize that. "I could add a little bit of magic "to make it work even better in my Cloud or in my hardware." Then you can do that in the open. You can do that with a community. Then you can partner with Docker to test it, and certify it, and distribute it as an easy-to-use product. Everything can go faster. >> You mentioned open a lot there. Does that mean that Docker is now closed? There's certain people that are very dogmatic when it comes to open source, so maybe you can parse that for us. >> I think it's the same people that were complaining before that we were confusing our product and an open project. We think of ourselves as having a lot to learn, and there's an Ecosystem that's made of a lot of people and companies and projects that have had a lot of experience with openness in the past. We spend most of our time listening, figuring out what the next step should be, and then taking that next step. People told us, "Clarify the relative place, "open source collaboration and your product." That's what we did. Now, I'm sure someone's going to say, "I preferred it before." Well, we just have to, at some point, chose. The key thing to remember is, Docker does everything in the open, and then integrates it into a product that you can use. If you don't like the product, if you want an alternative, then you still have all the pieces in the open right now. I would say, no. Not only is Docker not going closed, we're actually accelerating the rate at which we're opening up stuff. >> Personally, I felt it was a nice maturation of what you've done before, which was batteries are included but swappable. But we've taken the next step. It reminds me of those cool little science kits my kids get. Where it's like, oh okay, I could free build it or I can do it or I could do some other things. >> We use that tagline. It used to be, Docker has batteries included, but swappable. You can make other batteries and we'll swap them in to the product. We'll decide what's in there. Now everyone can do the swapping. It's a big free-for-all. Honestly, it's fun to watch. >> Is there any piece of Docker, the project, outside of core Docker, that Docker the company will refrain from building, will rely on ISVs to build? Or will Docker the company get involved, or reserve for itself the latitude to get involved in development of more peripheral pieces of the overall project going forward? >> We spent a lot of time thinking about that. Honestly, there's so many different constraints, we just decided we're going to follow the users, follow the customers. We just want a platform that works and solves people's problems. That's the starting point. From there, we work out the implementation details, what technology to use, the order in which to build things. Also, what makes more sense in the core platform and what makes more sense as an add-on. It's kind of on a case-by-case basis. >> Is there a grand vision document or functional service layered architecture that all of these components of the project are implementing or enabling? In other words, will Docker, as a project ever be complete or will it always be open-ended, will it constantly evolve and possibly broaden in scope continuously, indefinitely? >> If you look at the Moby Project on the one side, with experimentations and all the building blocks, I think that's going to just continuously expand. Really, openness is all about scale. There's only so much one company can build on their own, but if you really show the Ecosystem you're serious about really welcoming everybody and allowing for different opinions and approaches, then, honestly, I think there's no limit to how large that project can scale. I think Moby can go into tens of thousands of contributors as open source becomes easier and more accessible, which we're really working on, I think it can go into hundreds of thousands. That's going to take a while. That will, I think, never end growing. I think Docker, the product, the company, the reason we've been so successful is that we've been, well at least we've worked really hard to focus and be disciplined in what problems we want to solve, so it's a more iterative approach. We would rather solve less problems, but solve them really, really well, so that if you're using Docker for developing or going to production, you're really delighted Just every detail kind of fits together. There's a roadmap, of course. We're going to do more and more. But we don't want to rush trying to do everything. >> Solomon, great progress on all of these pieces. I've got the tough one for you. In the last year or so, Kubernetes has really exploded out there. Lots of your Ecosystem is heavily using it. Is it that Docker Swarm and Kubernetes will just be options out there? I look at Microsoft Dasher and they're very supportive of both initiatives. Many of your partners are there. How do you guys look at that dynamic and how would you like people to think of that going forward? >> It's a great case study of why we're transitioning to this open project model with Moby. The whole point is that at any given time, Docker, the product, will not be using all of the building blocks out there. It's just not possible. There's too many permutations. So we have to chose. One of these building blocks is orchestration. A year ago when we decided to build an orchestration, we had really specific opinions on what it should look like, as product builders. We looked around and we decided it needs to be a new kind of a building block. So we built Swarm Kits for our own use and we integrated it. Now that there's an open project for elaboration, we're throwing Swarm Kit in there so that everyone can modify it, extend it, and also replace it with something else. I think the big change, now, is that if you look at something like Kubernetes or Rocket as a container on time. Honestly, I could make a super long list of all the components out there that are really cool and we don't use in Docker. Now you can combine them all in Moby in custom assemblies. And we actually demoed that on stage yesterday. We showed taking some pieces from Docker and taking Kubernetes as a piece and plugging it together and saying "Look, there you go! "Weekend project." I think we're going to see a lot of conversions and reuse of ideas and codes, especially in the orchestration piece. I think over time, the differences between Kubernetes, Swarm Kit, and others will really diminish. We'll just integrate the bits and pieces that make the most sense. I don't really think of Kubernetes as a competitor or a problem. I think of it as another cool component in the Moby Ecosystem. Yeah, I think it's a lot of cool stuff. >> I tell ya, the Kubernetes community is just so thrilled that containerd is now open source. It really solves that issue and really it hasn't been something I've heard a lot, coming into the show. It's one of the themes we wanted to look at, and it hasn't been something that is like, Oh boy! Fight, war, anything like that. Hey! Congrats on that! I want to turn back to your root there. I think about dotCloud to Docker. It's a lot about the application modernization. Fast forward to today, Ben's up on stage talking of the journey. How do we take your legacy applications and wrap them in? What do you think about that kind of progression? We like that spectrum out there to help customers, at least partially, and be able to make changes. But I can't imagine that's when you started Docker that that was one of the use cases that you really thought you'd use. What surprised you? What's changed how you built things? What do you see from customers? >> Actually, you'll find this surprising, but this actually was a use case that we had in mind from the very beginning. I think that was lost in the noise for the first few years in the life of Docker because it became this exciting, new thing. >> Come on, Cloud native, Cloud native! >> Yeah, exactly! Docker has a huge developer community now. We spent a lot of time making it great for devs. The truth is, I used to be sysadmin. I used to be on call. I'm an ops guy first and we learned how to help developers. Developers are the customer. The Docker came out of our ops roots and then it evolved to help the developers. That's something that's now lost in the noise of history. It's a really pragmatic tool. It's built to solve real problems. One design opinion we baked in from the beginning is that it has to allow you to do things incrementally. If Docker forces you to throw away what you have, just to get the benefits, then we screwed up. The whole point is that Docker can adapt to what you're doing. For example, you'll see a lot of details in how Docker's designed to allow for stateful applications to run in there, to allow for your own network model to fit. Before Docker, all the containers solutions, all the paths, required you to change your app. Even things like port discovery. You had to change the source code. Docker did not require that. It gives you extra things you can do if you want to go further. But the starting point is incremental. Honestly, I'm really glad that now that's resonating, that we're reaching that point in the community where there's a lot of people using Docker interested in that, because for a few years I was worried that that would be missed in the noise of early adopters that don't mind rewriting everything. From the beginning, Docker was not just for Cloud-Native, microservices, Twelve-Factor, etc. I'm, personally, as a designer of products, as a pragmatist, I'm just happy that we're there. >> How do you see Docker evolving to support more complex orchestrations for data? For hybrid data cloud, environments private and public? You got the likes of Microsoft, Oracle, and IBM as partners and so forth. They have these complex scenarios now, their customers or petabytes scale and so forth. Where do you see that going, the data, the persistence of storage side of the containerization under Docker going? >> I think there's a lot of work to do. I think over time we're going to see specialized solutions for different uses of data. Data has such a big word. It's like computing. Just like computing now is no longer considered one category but it's specialized, I think data will be the same. I think it's a great fit for this modular Lego approach to the Docker Ecosystem. We're going to see different approaches to different data models, and I think we're going to see a lot modularization and a lot of different assemblies. Again, I think a lot of that will happen in Moby and we'll see a lot of cool, open stuff. We, ourselves, are facing a lot of data related questions, in request for customers. There's stuff in there already. You've got data volumes. And I think you're going to see a lot more on the data topic in the next year. >> Like containerization of artificial intelligence and deep learning and all that. Clearly, that's very incognito so far because, yeah. >> We're seeing a lot of really cool machine learning use cases using Docker already. OpenAI is all on Docker. We watch what they're doing with great interest. >> Are you a member of that consortium? >> Let's say friends and family (laughs). So OpenAI came out of the Y Combinator Ecosystem and Docker is a Y Combinator company. We spend a lot of time with them. I think AI on Docker is a really cool use case. I'm a big fan of that. >> Jim: Cool! Us too! >> Solomon, unfortunately, we're runnin' low on time. Last question I have for you is, there is so many things we can do with Docker now. Here's a bunch of the use cases like, "Oh, I can run lots of applications." Everything from Oracles in the store now, things like that. What is the quick win when you're talking to customers and let's get started? What's the thing that gets them the most excited that impacts their business the fastest? >> Ya know, it's-- >> And it never comes down to one thing, but, ya know. >> Honestly, we keep talking about Lego. I think it's like asking, what's your favorite Lego toy? I think we're maturing in the model. I think Lego is just the perfect analogy because it's a lot of building blocks. There's more and more, but there's also the sets. I think we're consolidating around a few different sets. There's maybe a dozen main use cases. We're seeing people identify with one, and then we're helping them see a starting point there. Here's a starter set for your problem, and then it clicks. >> Yeah, I hear that, and I can't help but think back. You're the big green platform that all my Legos build on. I can have my space stuff. I can have my farm set. Maybe the Duplos don't quite fit on it. It's the platform helping me to modernize a lot of what we're doing. Solomon Hykes, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Likewise! Congratulations on all the progress here, and we look forward to catching up with you the next time! We'll be back. Jim and I will be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

prepare for the extraction point we've been briefed on all the important stories and events in the world of emerging information now it's time to extract the data and turn it into action live from the silicon angle studios in the heart of Silicon Valley this is extraction point with John furrier okay we're live back in the palo alto studios i'm john furrier for the extraction point we extract the signal from the noise and my special guest today i'm excited to have here is Paul Martino who is the founder of aggregate knowledge and also storied entrepreneur in Silicon Valley who now lives in Philly with his family comes out here Paul is known for among other things being a great entrepreneur tech geek loves tech loves to build build startups started one of the first social networks with Mark Pincus called tribe started his own company funded by Kleiner Perkins with his partner Chris law called aggregate knowledge which is booming and doing great and now more famous for being the first round investor in zynga company that is exploding with revenue as Kleiner Perkins said is the of all their portfolio comes in the history more than Google's made more money faster than anybody Paul Martino welcome to the extraction point great to see you John as always awesome to see you first I got to start with your now I forgot to mention that you're actually running a venture firm so in addition to being famous with Zynga you're running bullpen capital so first give the folks out there an update and first confirm or deny you were in the first round of Zynga or not yes the the first round of Zynga there were several institutional investors and several individual investors Morocco me Reid Hoffman were individual investors Avalon Union Square accelerator ventures and foundry where the institutional investors in that first round Peter was Peter Thiel yeah Peter was also an individual investor in the first round so that's officially the first round investors of Zynga we have clarified that and that is now hot on the books but now you're you've been successfully founded aggregate knowledge you know have a CEO running that what's the update with aggregate knowledge yeah so great guy runs that company as a guy you need to meet and have on this show Dave jakubowski aggregate knowledge really went in a direction where all of the focus was on providing data and analytics to the major ad agencies and John John Nelson who started organic one of the first agencies is now the CEO of Omnicom digital joined the board and I said look we got to get a guy who's an ad heavy in here and jakubowski was previously the GM of microsoft adcenter and had a senior position at specific media and we brought him in and he's just been kickin butt our greek knowledge has really really made a significant significant contribution in the area of data and analytics for these major agencies and he was very able to bring in a crew of people know exactly how to run that business so you're a big fan of big data then mm-hmm oh yeah we just had a big special yesterday on Big Data mentioned about it so that's cool we're going to get into a lobbyist I was just kind of get the small talk out of the way here your current role is the founder of bullpen capital right so bullpen to me I'm a baseball not I love baseball bullpen means you go the bullpen for relief right yep thank God close the game out hopefully or mid-innings relief so tell us about what bullpen is it's a special fund as I know from reading talk to you to target an expansion of this new seed and explosive new funding environment Bryce plain force right I'll tell you how we got the name at the end too so here's what happened I've been investing with a lot of the so-called super angels and that's kind of a misnomer because they really are actually in some cases actual small venture firms to I've been investing with a lot of them since they got off the ground Josh Kopelman from first round is one of the first investors in aggregate knowledge mike maples was an early advisor to the company I've known Jeff claw be a who run soft tech since he was at Reuters and with the late 90s and so I've worked with these guys done a lot of investing and we were me and my buddies Duncan Davidson rich Melman were sitting around over summer of 09 doing a little bit data analysis right another big data assignment we realized that as more and more these seed funds got created they were creating an inventory of companies that weren't quite ready to go to the traditional venture guy but we're also difficult to bridge from just the seed guys because the see guys at that time didn't have really big funds so wait a minute you've got some really good companies here is to clarify the for the folks out there seed funds don't traditionally have follow-on big funds like a VC firm right that's what you're referring to yeah they tend not to have as bigger reserve so if a big fun writes you a five-million-dollar check and you stub your toe you can probably get some more money to get through the hardships but a lot of the the new super angel funds or smaller funds and you get a five hundred thousand dollar check and if you need another five hundred thousand dollars it can frequently be very difficult because they make so many investments with smaller reserves yeah and so you've got dave McClure clavey a maples first round capital true ventures made the first round truevision more traditional VC then say dave McClure and mike maples and claw VA they're out doing some really good work out their funding really good company spending a lot of time I know I've seen them working their butt off yeah they need some air support right they need some cover the little bullpen is that that's you come in and say hey for your stars they're going to rise up yep and so that's exactly right so what happens is here's what the analysis we did turned out of their portfolio thirty percent of their portfolios in aggregate quickly are really exciting companies you know and they quickly go up to a venture auction and the guys and sandhill rotor excited about it about twenty percent of their deals you know that they don't like too much it's kind of just floating there yeah that you know the entrepreneur wasn't a fit that team didn't execute that left fifty percent of their deals in the middle which they kind of were too early to tell as Mike maple sometimes says they were in an extended learning and discovery phase they hadn't quite figured out what their models yeah and this de pivoting stuff's going on right now the Marcus changes turbulence so these guys are right and so you look you look at some examples and you go well wait a minute for every zynga that goes up into the right immediately go look at the stories of chegg and modcloth and etsy and quite frankly the in-between round on twitter and for everyone Zynga that you find that just hits it out of the park the right way there were four to five companies that went through that hard intermediate round that it was difficult in the environment where you have only a potentially thinly capitalized seed fund in front of you go get through that difficult point I said guys you need a bull pen and way we came up with the name is I'm involved in a deal with Chad Durbin who used to pitch for the Phillies and now as a relief pitcher for the cleveland indians and he was in our office and we were talking about this idea and Chad said yeah it's kind of like you're building a bullpen for the seed guys I'm like that's exactly right that's the name we got to go with and so fortunately I was involved in in this company called showcase you which is actually cool cited suppose for recruiting for college scholarships for a collegiate athletes right you're a high school student you throw 80 miles an hour left hand it and you're in 10th grade how do you figure out where the right scholarships are so Durbin and some of the Phillies where the original investors in this company called showcase you it's actually a cool company as the combine work out online basically fries for the high school kids and because the high school kids sometimes are in tough geographies to get to you're in you're in a small rural area in Nebraska how do they find out that you're the guy who can throw 89 miles an hour great so I mean this VC market so basically you're referring to with bullpen right now is an innie and you've been in our sprayer so you live through classic you know classic financing your last company financed by kleiner perkins and a tribe i forget who financed tribe yet Mayfield was the lead investor may feel again another traditional VC firm all tier 1 VCS although may feel people are you now is slipped a little bit that's some of their key partners who have slipped away but they've all moved on what you're really referring to is there's a new dynamic of entrepreneurship going on now we're now there are some break outcomes that just need a little bit more time to mature in the old model they just be kind of closed down the VC guy would be on the Bora has just a pain in the ass and you know really not growing and do another round it's they get kind of lazy in a way if they got 10 10 boards are on so with the super angels and the fact that does take a lot of cash to start a company you've got more deals getting done so the the Y Combinator the Dave McClure's and chef claw va's in the mike maples and sometimes SiliconANGLE labs which we're doing here is telling you about right we're funding companies the more [ __ ] is funded a better will you come in as you keep them alive longer just wreck the pivot possibly that's right and so what happens is right now the venture industry is being disrupted the same way the venture industry has funded companies that have rupted other industries they are being disrupted in the exact same way and the disruption happened from below as always happens it started in seed stage now in order for the disruption to go all the way through there need to be companies that come after seed stage investors that have the same philosophy and mentality pro entrepreneur easy terms operating people who get their hands dirty to get deals done you need that in the B stage and in the sea stage and here's what our prediction is John our prediction is a few years from now there'll be a company that comes after bullpen that does series c and series d financing or mezzanine financing but the same philosophy is bullpen and then DST s at the end of that chain and you can imagine building companies that go all the way to liquidity that you got money from maples first bullpen second this unnamed company third and you went quasi-public with DST and you've bypassed the entire venture scheme entirely and the entire institutional public markets complete liquidity wealth creation companies creating jobs I mean this is new paradigm I mean this isn't amazing I mean this is a potentially amazing point in the history of us finance the idea that you could go two billion dollar outcomes by passing not only the public markets on the back side but the traditional venture ecosystem on the front side I mean that is a disruption if ever there was one amen I mean hi and with you a hundred percent the other some people who will argue regulation is if market forces first of all I'm a big believer in market forces so I think what you're doing is clearly identifying an opportunity that dynamics are all lying lining up entrepreneurs are validating it and so but the questions are regulations I mean first of all I'm anti-regulation but as you start to get to that liquidity and some are arguing I even wrote a blog post about saying hey you know basically Facebook's public merry go buddy what do you say to those guys this is the change in the history of this financial asustor we want the government regulating this yeah so my co-founder of both i started bullpen with two really good guys Duncan Davison who was the founder covad was advantage point for years asking them to buy government regulation would go bad i mean what happened then because of the I lack warsi like Wars but only that the some extent covet doesn't exist unless the telco 1994 happens through in some ways a creation of the government to good point it's social right but but think about it the arbitrariness of government as opposed to a well-thought-out centralized plan so anyway so Duncan sometimes uses that phrase you know he talks a lot about the way in which the government you know that the worst thing you can ever hear is I'm with the government I'm here to help right i mean that's about the way it goes but his point around the the the new quasi public markets is money we'll find a way yeah and when sarbanes-oxley happens and it's tough to go public and you're a CEO like Pincus who's running one of the great all-time companies in Silicon Valley at Zynga he says you know going public is not an entrance is not an exit it's an entrance that's that's this quote what why would I why do I need that headache I mean I was just talking with Charles beeler who sold for the hell dorado he sold to compel in one of his investments to dell for over a billion dollars and and 3 para nother firm he wasn't on that one that was sold to HP during storage wars he's talking about the lawsuits literally this shakedown of immediately filed lawsuits you know you could have got more money so this is this public markets brutal no doubt no doubt i think what you're doing is a revolution I'm all excited about this new environment again anything with his liquidity wealth creation with the engine of innovation can be powered that's fantastic look back the startups okay get back to where you're playing yeah the history of Silicon Valley was built on the notion of value add some have said over the past 10 years venture capital has not been truly value add and some were arguing value subtract and then just money so what you're talking about here is getting in and helping me stay alive what's the value added side of the equation mean I know that a lot of these folks like like like ourselves here it's looking angle McClure Xavier and maples and true ventures they roll their sleeves up first round capital right before we can only provide so much it kind of expands right you guys are filling in the capital market side right how are you guys helping out on the value add because a lot of those companies may be the next Twitter right you've got a bridge to finance that's right allow them to do the pivot or get the creative energy to grow and they hit that market if they hit that hit it going vertical you got it kind of sometimes nurture it you guys have a strategy for that talk about the so let me let me give you my perspective on that so I think 10 years ago when you're starting a company the name of the venture firm was more important than potentially the partner on your board ten years later the name of the firm matters much less and it's the name of the partner and it's the operating experience that that partner partner brought to bear and you go talk to the 24 year old entrepreneur verse the 34 year old entrepreneur the 24 entrepreneur 24 year old entrepreneur wants a guy like you or a guy like me on his board he wants have been there done that started a company was a CEO exited it got fired hired people fired other people scar tissue scars knowledge experience exactly and if a good friend of mine who's in the traditional business I'll leave his name out of it he sometimes says the following phrase the era of the gentleman VC is over and what he means by the era of the gentleman VC is over is you know if your background is you were a junior associate who came in with a finance degree in an MBA and it never started a company you're not going to get picked by the entrepreneur anymore in 10 years from now almost everyone in the business is going to have a resume that looks more like a Cristal Paul Martino a mark pincus that you name all the people who we've started our companies with if there's a lot more hochberg with track record certainly with with the kind of big companies in the valley just in our generation yet started with netscape google paypal right now i want to see facebook is and then now's inga either the ecosystem is just entered intertwined I mean for every failure that spawns more success right so that's right that's a Silicon Valley way yeah well a tribe was tribe was a perfect example of a successful failure tribe was not a successful outcome but it was in many ways a very successful way to actually pioneer what became social networking you know investments got made into Facebook as a result of that Zynga in aggregate knowledge were both the outcrops of what was learned to some extent the original business case of Zynga was remarkably simple there is a ton of time being spent on social networks and after you get done finding your buddies and looking at photos what do you do and Pincus is original vision to some extent was let's have games to play and that insight doesn't happen that way unless you don't do tribe and go into the trenches and get the scars on your back and your in your your second venture of our adventure right at the tribe was aggregate knowledge was similar concept people are connected I mean you got to be excited though I mean you know you were involved in tribes very early on all the stuff that you dealt with activity streams newsfeed connections the social science you know the one that one of the nicest pieces of validation of this recently was over in q4 of 2010 seven of the patents that me Chris law Elliot low and Brian Waller wrote got issued now they're all owned by Cisco Cisco bought tribe in the end they bought the assets in the and the patent filings but there are patent filings that go back to 2002 on the corner stones and hallmarks of what social networking really is that we wrote back then that have now issued order granted or sitting in the cisco portfolio and well that's kind of like a consolation prize and that there wasn't a big outcome for tribe it is very validating to see that those original claims on really cutting-edge stuff have been had been issued and I'm excited about that you should be proud i'm proud to know your great guy you have great integrity you're going to do well as a venture capitalist i think you people will trust you and you're fair and there's two types of people in this world people who help people people who screw people so you know you really on one side of the other you're you're not in between you're truly on the on the good side I really enjoy you know having chatting with you but let's talk about entrepreneurship from that perspective about patents you know I'm try was an outcome that we all can relate to the peplum with Facebook of what Zuckerberg and and those guys are doing over there that's entrepreneurship so talk to the entrepreneurs out there yeah hey you know what you do some good work it all comes back to you talk about the the Karma of entrepreneurship a failure is not a bad thing it's kind of a punch line these days I'll failures are stepping stone to the next thing but talk about your experience and lets you and i talk about how to deal with faith for those first-time entrepreneurs out there in their 20s what just give them a sense of how to approach their venture and if it fails or succeeds what advice would you give them yeah well like winning and losing is important part of the game I mean certain companies are going to be successful in certain ones art and if you go and start ten unsuccessful companies maybe this isn't exactly the business for you but that said how you the game is important as well and if you're a high integrity guy who gets good investors and you make quality decisions and let's say the market wasn't a fit you're going to get the money the second time because people said you know I work with that guy that guy really did a good job you know they never got it quite right but this is a guy learn the right lessons so when I'm coaching a first-time CEO and i'm the CEO coach of a couple guys now you know i'm looking for someone who's sitting there going hey i not only want to do this to win and be successful but i want to learn i I want to do this better than no one no one walks in and says I learn from my failure I hope I'm successful I mean you let it go and say hey I'm gonna be successful I want to win failure is not an option but failure happens right i mean you know it's bad breaks that mean but but here is the key less I tell this to all of the entrepreneurs I work with you will not be successful if you're making mistakes that were made by those before you if you make novel mistakes you're in good company right and so only ever make a novel mistake I made a good example this is one claw and I started Chris law and I started aggregate knowledge aggregate knowledge was the original business model was around recommendations and there were dead bodies in front of us there was net perceptions there was fire fly and she was in the office this morning with Yazdi one of the founders of [ __ ] cast with it man yeah so predictive analytics residi what did we do we went out and we I flew out and met John riedle University of Minnesota who was the founder of net perceptions I dug up yes d i got these guys on my advisory board and while aggregate knowledge was not successful in the recommendation business and pivoted into the data management thing we made novel mistakes we did not repeat the mistakes of met perceptions and firefly and so i think that's an important important lesson to an entrepreneur if you're going into an area that has dead bodies in front of you you better research them you better know who they are you better know what happened and you better make sure that if you screw it up you at least screw it up in a way which none of us could have predicted yeah that's the only way you're going to get a hall pass on that well let's talk about talk about some of the hot Renisha of activity saw so you're in that sector where you're feeding the seed the super angels in the first rounds early stage guys and it's a good fit what about some of the philosophies on like the firms out there there's of this to this two philosophies I just taught us to an entrepreneur here you met on the way out a street speaker text and there at seven you know under a million dollars in financing hmm series a yeah and then you got in the news yesterday color 41 million dollars building to win magnin flipboard a hundred million dollars i got this is these guys that we know i mean there are yep our generation and a little bit around the same time and certainly they have pedigree so remember the old days the arms race mentality right when the sector at all costs right that's kind of what's going on here i mean some of the command that kind of money there's actually an auction going on what do you make of that I mean bubble is an arms race so so rich Melman inside a bullpen de tu fascinating analysis he looked at the full portfolio of 28 took about 20 of the best super angels by the way the super angles are all different some are micro vc summer buying options etc so so first off super angel is a weird word but it's everybody from Union Square and foundry on one side first round and flooding but any take the top 20 or so of these guys and look at their portfolios what's amazing about their portfolios is the unlike 10 and 20 years ago in prior tech bubbles there are not 20 companies doing the same thing when you categorize them yeah ten percent are in ad tech ten percent our direct-to-consumer consider but like forty percent are one-offs that is this is I think one of the first times in the history of venture that forty percent of the deal flow is a one-off unique business idea that there aren't 30 guys going to do and I think that the importance of that to what happens in this next stage of the tech boom we don't know what that means yet because back in the day well we need to just we're venture firm we need to disk drive company okay so your venture firm you've got your disk drive companies and I'll 20 venture friend knows if drive out and created the herd mentality everyone talks about with venture yep mean I was an opponent on a talk on here in the cube and I don't think I actually put in a blog post but I called the era of entrepreneurship like with open sores and low cost of entry with cloud computing and now mobility the manure of innovation where you know in the manure that's being out in the mark place mushrooms are growing out of it right and these you don't know what's going to be all look the same in a way so how do you tell the good ones from the bad ones so it's hard right so you have a lot of one you have a lot more activity hence angel list hence the super in rice so so the economics and the deal flow are all there the question is how do you get them from being just a one-off looked good on paper flame out the reality yeah well look in my opinion seed stage investing is about investing in people and I think when big firms trying to seed stage investing there's an impedance mismatch a lot of times because they want more evidence they want to know did the market work to the management then this is this is an early stage venture and am I going to want to go in a foxhole with this person and in many ways the good super angels are instinctive investors who are betting on people that they want to be in the foxhole with and yeah did they do it before do they know how to hire people is the market reasonably interesting but guess what they're probably gonna pivot three times so wait a minute at the end of the day you got to invest in people later stage venture is not you can look at discounted cash flows you can look at mezzanine financing you can do traditional measures but if you're going to invest in two people who have a prototype and need five hundred thousand dollars you're investing in people at that point what do you think about the OC angel is I'm a big fan of and recently was added thanks to maybe out there but even though i'm not i don't really co-invest with anyone else other than myself maybe you guys would bullpen but but if that's a phenomenon you don't have angel list which is opening up doors for deal flow companies are getting funded navales getting yeah a ton of activity nivea doing great job with venture hacks i get y combinator which I called the community college of startups they bring in like they open the door and I mean that an actually good way don't mean that negatively I mean they're giving access to entrepreneurs that never had access to the market right and now you have Paul Graham kind of giving the halo effect or thrown the holy water on certain stars and they get magically funded but yesterday at an event and they're they're packed right I've heard from VC saying I'm not invited because I didn't wasn't part of the original investment class so it seems that Y comma day is getting full yeah so do you see that you agree is there will be an over lo y combinator you know kind of like I've TED Conference has you know Ted they'll be you know y combinator Boston little franchises will be like barcamp for sure I mean look and look at techstars they franchise they'd I was over there with Dave Tisch in New York there's TechStars New York after those TechStars older in techstars seattle there is no doubt in my mind that right now there is an over investment in the seed stage meaning that there is a little bit of a seed bubble going on that's not necessarily bad though because in terms of raw dollars there's not a bubble yet Rory who's over at rafi it smells like a bubble it looks like a bubble but when you look at the mechanic when you look at the actual total dollars it's not a bubble rory who has a hinge recent Horowitz been said that that it's a boom not a bubble yeah so don't be confused it looks like bubbles and booms kind of look together the same right I actually I'm not quite sure I had the exact data right but here's the quick summary if you take a look at venture capital investment as a percent of GDP historically it's been something like point one percent of GDP in the bubble back in 99 it went to one percent something like it went 10x higher right now we're still at point one percent but since it's very much centered around the seed stage investing you see this frothiness in the sea but until that number goes from point 1 percent of GDP back up to one percent there's no real bubble because the tonnage of money hasn't come in yet and so so it's starting but this is what a tech boom feels like the early stages are excitement and lots of ideas and lots of flowers blooming and then the big money comes in because John I'll bet you're your brother and your sister and your mom haven't invested in a tech startup back in 99 video there's no public market that supports seven in a way that's a good and bad star basement yeah there's no fraud going on and most of the companies that are out there whether their lifestyle business or seed or bullpen funded are actually generating income the entrepreneur he has any earlier Mike was saying that he could a business deal so people are kind of like saw the old bubble and said shoot I don't want to do that again I gotta have at least revenue right and so companies didn't seem to start out with cash so you know that because you invested it but you know Pincus was getting some cash flow in the door from day one that's right that company was company was profitable the first day it started basically so talk about you know so I'm with Paul Martino by the way with bullpen capital entrepreneur wrote the patents on social networking which he sold the cisco when they sold the company now with bullpen capital huge dynamic you're a company out there this is exactly the positive dynamic you want to see because mainly you know dave mcclure jeff clavier mike maples have been kind of getting their butts handed to them in the press about super angels not having the juice to kind of go anywhere and it's been kind of a negative press there so you know this is the kind of void that's been filled by you guys to show the market that look at this there's a road map here so even though that the McClure's and clubs don't have big funds that there's a path to follow on financing so that the vc's can't shut them down and i've heard some pc say that so a lot of traditional venture guys would like to say that you know this little disruption we nipped it in the butt and it stopped after the seed stage but that's not the history of disruptions the history of disruptions are they start from the bottom then they get ecosystem support and then they grow and they disrupt the incumbents and I think we're halfway there so so the Angel gate thing that Arrington reported on was interesting because you know essentially what happened there it was a lot of him fighting Ron Conway I was not happy you can't be happy about competition I mean this is competition that increases prices right so you know in the short term prices have been inflated on valuations true or false that's true but but but I think I think the whole way angel gate was reported was absurd the most Pro entrepreneurial venture people perhaps in the history of the business are the guys who were supposedly at those tables I mean mike maples Jeff claw VA josh cop and Ron Conway fired his guy that was there I I understand suppose again suppose a key are right these are the most Pro entrepreneurial venture guys in the history of the business so I think that turned into something that it never was yeah well I mean that's the thing you know good for content producers who want page views I got to create some drama and you know as you know SiliconANGLE doesn't have any banner ads on our site quick plug for us we are motivated by content not page views so thanks for coming in today no but seriously I mean there's a there's a black cloud over the super angels has been since Angel gate I've heard privately from VCS that super angels it's been kind of a scuttlebutt they're misaligned just rumors I completely overblown and you know their business model threatens the incumbents and you know someone needed someone needed a piece of fodder to start a you know start a techcrunch discussion right there's no doubt that the market is need in need of a new ecosystem for the early stage because individual angels traditionally were wealthy individuals but now you have people with more experience like yourselves and entrepreneurs from google and facebook etc coming out and doing some things okay so next topic more on a personal kind of professional note k last final question is I know you got to run appreciate your time you're a technologist a lot of folks don't know that you're hardcore computer science guy and our model southern angles computer science meet social science right in your wheelhouse so with that just kind of final parting question what gets you excited technically right now I mean I'll see you have roots in both comps I and social Iran Zynga's early investor roster you got a bullpen capital you're looking at a lot of deals outside of that you as a computer scientist geek mm-hmm what gets you jazz what do you see in the horizon that's not yet on the mega trend roster that kind of you can't put your finger on it truly we might really get a good feeling well so I think you'll be disappointed with this answer because I think it's now cross the chasm to start being one of those mega trends it's called consumerization of enterprise and that's now the buzz word for it but what is it really mean and why do I think it's for real look you've got cool self-service applications for everything you can go do home banking by logging into a portal you can go to an ATM you can go do these things but you know go bring a new laptop into your big stodgy fortune 500 company and you know it's like getting a rectal exam right you know we got to install this we got to give you this private key yet that's TSA it writes like going through TSA exact idea that IT inside of big fortune 500 companies is going to stop being this gatekeeper to new technology I think look how long do you think it'll be until pick your favorite fortune 500 company the IT people know how to deal with the ipad 2 but how many people bought an ipad 2 into the off already everyone and so this to me is going to be the big next deck the next decade are going to be self service offerings for the enterprise getting around a very frustrating gatekeepers inside of you know the IT department etc and that's going to lead to an awesome boom of everything from security to auditing to compliance etc that's the convergence question Paul Martino my friend entrepreneur great guy venture capitals now on the good side helping the seed Super Angel micro VCS great to have you consumerization of IT that hits the cloud mobile social it's everything so that I was buzzword compliant on that great job great to have you know you're busy got to have you in again thanks so much for time that's a wrap thank you very much great thank you John