>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to AWS re:Invent, here in wonderful Las Vegas, Nevada. We're theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson. Joined with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Day four, you look great. Your voice has come back somehow. >> Yeah, a little bit. I don't know how. I took last night off. You guys, I know, were out partying all night, but - >> I don't know what you're talking about. (Dave laughing) >> Well, you were celebrating John's birthday. John Furrier's birthday today. >> Yes, happy birthday John! >> He's on his way to England. >> Yeah. >> To attend his nephew's wedding. Awesome family. And so good luck, John. I hope you feel better, he's got a little cold. >> I know, good luck to the newlyweds. I love this. I know we're both really excited for our next guest, so I'm going to bring out, Lena Smart from MongoDB. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you for having me. >> How's the show going for you? >> Good. It's been a long week. And I just, not much voice left, so. >> We'll be gentle on you. >> I'll give you what's left of it. >> All right, we'll take that. >> Okay. >> You had a fireside chat, at the show? >> Lena: I did. >> Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> So we were talking about the Rise, The developer is a platform. In this massive theater. I thought it would be like an intimate, you know, fireside chat. I keep believing them when they say to me come and do these talks, it'll be intimate. And you turn up and there's a stage and a theater and it's like, oh my god. But it was really interesting. It was well attended. Got some really good questions at the end as well. Lots of follow up, which was interesting. And it was really just about, you know, how we've brought together this developer platform that's got our integrated services. It's just what developers want, it gives them time to innovate and disrupt, rather than worry about the minutia of management. >> Savannah: Do the cool stuff. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so you know Lena, it's funny that you're saying that oh wow, the lights came on and it was this big thing. When when we were at re:Inforced, Lena was on stage and it was so funny, Lena, you were self deprecating like making jokes about the audience. >> Savannah: (indistinct) >> It was hilarious. And so, but it was really endearing to the audience and so we were like - >> Lena: It was terrifying. >> You got huge props for that, I'll tell you. >> Absolutely terrifying. Because they told me I wouldn't see anyone. Because we did the rehearsal the day before, and they were like, it's just going to be like - >> Sometimes it just looks like blackness out there. >> Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, they lied. I could see eyeballs. It was terrifying. >> Would you rather know that going in though? Or is it better to be, is ignorance bliss in that moment? >> Ignorance is bliss. >> Yeah, yeah yeah. >> Good call Savannah, right? Yeah, just go. >> The older I get, the more I'm just, I'm on the ignorance is bliss train. I just, I don't need to know anything that's going to hurt my soul. >> Exactly. >> One of the things that you mentioned, and this has actually been a really frequent theme here on the show this week, is you said that this has been a transformative year for developers. >> Lena: Yeah. >> What did you mean by that? >> So I think developers are starting to come to the fore, if you like, the fore. And I'm not in any way being deprecating about developers 'cause I love them. >> Savannah: I think everyone here does. >> I was married to one, I live with one now. It's like, they follow me everywhere. They don't. But, I think they, this is my opinion obviously but I think that we're seeing more and more the value that developers bring to the table. They're not just code geeks anymore. They're not just code monkeys, you know, churning out lines and lines of code. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had this week have been with developers. And that's why I'm so pleased that our developer data platform is going to give these folks back time, so that they can go and innovate. And do super interesting things and do the next big thing. It was interesting, I was talking to Mary, our comms person earlier and she had said that Dave I guess, my boss, was on your show - >> Dave: Yeah, he was over here last night. >> Yeah. And he was saying that two thirds of the companies that had been mentioned so far, within the whole gamut of this conference use MongoDB. And so take that, extrapolate that, of all the developers >> Wow. >> who are there. I know, isn't that awesome? >> That's awesome. Congrats on that, that's like - >> Did I hear that right now? >> I know, I just had that moment. >> I know she just told me, I'm like, really? That's - >> That's so cool. >> 'Cause the first thing I thought of was then, oh my god, how many developers are we reaching then? 'Cause they're the ones. I mean, it's kind of interesting. So my job has kind of grown from, over the years, being the security geek in the back room that nobody talks to, to avoiding me in the lift, to I've got a seat at the table now. We meet with the board. And I think that I can see that that's where the developer mindset is moving towards. It's like, give us the right tools and we'll change your world. >> And let the human capital go back to doing the fun stuff and not just the maintenance stuff. >> And, but then you say that, you can't have everything automated. I get that automation is also the buzzword of the week. And I get that, trust me. Someone has to write the code to do the automation. >> Savannah: Right. >> So, so yeah, definitely give these people back time, so that they can work on ML, AI, choose your buzzword. You know, by giving people things like queriable encryption for example, you're going to free up a whole bunch of head space. They don't have to worry about their data being, you know harvested from memory or harvested while at rest or in motion. And it's like, okay, I don't have to worry about that now, let me go do something fun. >> How about the role of the developer as it relates to SecOps, right? They're being asked to do a lot. You and I talked about this at re:Inforce. You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. Like a lot of companies I think are struggling with it. I mean, the other thing you said said to me is you don't have a lack of talent at Mongo, right? 'Cause you're Mongo. But a lot of companies do. But a lot of the developers, you know we were just talking about this earlier with Capgemini, the developer metrics or the application development team's metrics might not be aligned with the CSO's metrics. How, what are you seeing there? What, how do you deal with it within Mongo? What do you advise your customers? >> So in terms of internal, I work very closely with our development group. So I work with Tara Hernandez, who's our new VP of developer productivity. And she and her team are very much interested in making developers more productive. That's her job. And so we get together because sometimes security can definitely be seen as a blocker. You know, funnily enough, I actually had a Slack that I had to respond to three seconds before I come on here. And it was like, help, we need some help getting this application through procurement, because blah, blah, blah. And it's weird the kind of change, the shift in mindset. Whereas before they might have gone to procurement or HR or someone to ask for this. Now they're coming to the CSO. 'Cause they know if I say yes, it'll go through. >> Talk about social engineering. >> Exactly. >> You were talking about - >> But turn it around though. If I say no, you know, I don't like to say no. I prefer to be the CSO that says yes, but. And so that's what we've done. We've definitely got that culture of ask, we'll tell you the risks, and then you can go away and be innovative and do what you need to do. And we basically do the same with our customers. Here's what you can do. Our application is secure out of the box. Here's how we can help you make it even more, you know, streamlined or bespoke to what you need. >> So mobile was a big inflection point, you know, I dunno, it seems like forever ago. >> 2007. >> 2007. Yeah, iPhone came out in 2007. >> You remember your first iPhone? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Yeah? Same. >> Yeah. It was pretty awesome, actually. >> Yeah, I do too. >> Yeah, I was on the train to Boston going up to see some friends at MIT on the consortium that I worked with. And I had, it was the wee one, 'member? But you thought it was massive. >> Oh, it felt - >> It felt big. And I remember I was sitting on the train to Boston it was like the Estella and there was these people, these two women sitting beside me. And they were all like glam, like you and unlike me. >> Dave: That's awesome. >> And they, you could see them like nudging each other. And I'm being like, I'm just sitting like this. >> You're chilling. >> Like please look at my phone, come on just look at it. Ask me about it. And eventually I'm like - >> You're baiting them. >> nonchalantly laid it on the table. And you know, I'm like, and they're like, is that an iPhone? And I'm like, yeah, you want to see it? >> I thought you'd never ask. >> I know. And I really played with it. And I showed them all the cool stuff, and they're like, oh we're going to buy iPhones. And so I should have probably worked for Apple, but I didn't. >> I was going to say, where was your referral kickback on that? Especially - >> It was a little like Tesla, right? When you first, we first saw Tesla, it was Ray Wong, you know, Ray? From Pasadena? >> It really was a moment and going from the Blackberry keyboard to that - >> He's like want to see my car? And I'm like oh yeah sure, what's the big deal? >> Yeah, then you see it and you're like, ooh. >> Yeah, that really was such a pivotal moment. >> Anyway, so we lost a track, 2007. >> Yeah, what were we talking about? 2007 mobile. >> Mobile. >> Key inflection point, is where you got us here. Thank you. >> I gotchu Dave, I gotchu. >> Bring us back here. My mind needs help right now. Day four. Okay, so - >> We're all getting here on day four, we're - >> I'm socially engineering you to end this, so I can go to bed and die quietly. That's what me and Mary are, we're counting down the minutes. >> Holy. >> That's so sick. >> You're breaking my heart right now. I love it. I'm with you, sis, I'm with you. >> So I dunno where I was, really where I was going with this, but, okay, there's - >> 2007. Three things happened. >> Another inflection point. Okay yeah, tell us what happened. But no, tell us that, but then - >> AWS, clones, 2006. >> Well 2006, 2007. Right, okay. >> 2007, the iPhone, the world blew up. So you've already got this platform ready to take all this data. >> Dave: Right. >> You've got this little slab of gorgeousness called the iPhone, ready to give you all that data. And then MongoDB pops up, it's like, woo-hoo. But what we could offer was, I mean back then was awesome, but it was, we knew that we would have to iterate and grow and grow and grow. So that was kind of the three things that came together in 2007. >> Yeah, and then Cloud came in big time, and now you've got this platform. So what's the next inflection point do you think? >> Oh... >> Good question, Dave. >> Don't even ask me that. >> I mean, is it Edge? Is it IOT? Is there another disruptor out there? >> I think it's going to be artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Is it AI? >> I mean I don't know enough about it to talk about it, to any level, so don't ask me any questions about it. >> This is like one of those ignorance is bliss moments. It feels right. >> Yeah. >> Well, does it scare you, from a security perspective? Or? >> Great question, Dave. >> Yeah, it scares me more from a humanity standpoint. Like - >> More than social scared you? 'Cause social was so benign when it started. >> Oh it was - >> You're like, oh - I remember, >> It was like a yearbook. I was on the Estella and we were - >> Shout out to Amtrak there. >> I was with, we were starting basically a wikibond, it was an open source. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Kind of, you know, technology community. And we saw these and we were like enamored of Facebook. And there were these two young kids on the train, and we were at 'em, we were picking the brain. Do you like Facebook? "I love Facebook." They're like "oh, Facebook's unbelievable." Now, kids today, "I hate Facebook," right? So, but social at the beginning it was kind of, like I say, benign and now everybody's like - >> Savannah: We didn't know what we were getting into. >> Right. >> I know. >> Exactly. >> Can you imagine if you could have seen into the future 20 years ago? Well first of all, we'd have all bought Facebook and Apple stock. >> Savannah: Right. >> And Tesla stock. But apart from, but yeah apart from that. >> Okay, so what about Quantum? Does that scare you at all? >> I think the only thing that scares me about Quantum is we have all this security in place today. And I'm not an expert in Quantum, but we have all this security in place that's securing what we have today. And my worry is, in 10 years, is it still going to be secure? 'Cause we're still going to be using that data in some way, shape, or form. And my question is to the quantum geniuses out there, what do we do in 10 years like to retrofit the stuff? >> Dave: Like a Y2K moment? >> Kind of. Although I think Y2K is coming in 2038, isn't it? When the Linux date flips. I'll be off the grid by then, I'll be living in Scotland. >> Somebody else's problem. >> Somebody else's problem. I'll be with the sheep in Glasgow, in Scotland. >> Y2K was a boondoggle for tech, right? >> What a farce. I mean, that whole - >> I worked in the power industry in Y2K. That was a nightmare. >> Dave: Oh I bet. >> Savannah: Oh my God. >> Yeah, 'cause we just assumed that the world was going to stop and there been no power, and we had nuclear power plants. And it's like holy moly. Yeah. >> More than moly. >> I was going to say, you did a good job holding that other word in. >> I think I was going to, in case my mom hears this. >> I grew up near Diablo Canyon in, in California. So you were, I mean we were legitimately worried that that exactly was going to happen. And what about the waste? And yeah it was chaos. We've covered a lot. >> Well, what does worry you? Like, it is culture? Is it - >> Why are you trying to freak her out? >> No, no, because it's a CSO, trying to get inside the CSO's head. >> You don't think I have enough to worry about? You want to keep piling on? >> Well if it's not Quantum, you know? Maybe it's spiders or like - >> Oh but I like spiders, well spiders are okay. I don't like bridges, that's my biggest fear. Bridges. >> Seriously? >> And I had to drive over the Tappan Zee bridge, which is one of the longest, for 17 years, every day, twice. The last time I drove over it, I was crying my heart out, and happy as anything. >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I've never driven over it since. Stay out of where? >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I'm staying out of anywhere that's got lots of water. 'Cause it'll have bridges. >> Savannah: Well it's good we're here in the desert. >> Exactly. So what scares me? Bridges, there you go. >> Yeah, right. What? >> Well wait a minute. So if I'm bridging technology, is that the scary stuff? >> Oh God, that was not - >> Was it really bad? >> It was really bad. >> Wow. Wow, the puns. >> There's a lot of seems in those bridges. >> It is lit on theCUBE A floor, we are all struggling. I'm curious because I've seen, your team is all over the place here on the show, of course. Your booth has been packed the whole time. >> Lena: Yes. >> The fingerprint. Talk to me about your shirt. >> So, this was designed by my team in house. It is the most wanted swag in the company, because only my security people wear it. So, we make it like, yeah, you could maybe have one, if this turns out well. >> I feel like we're on the right track. >> Dave: If it turns out well. >> Yeah, I just love it. It's so, it's just brilliant. I mean, it's the leaf, it's a fingerprint. It's just brilliant. >> That's why I wanted to call it out. You know, you see a lot of shirts, a lot of swag shirts. Some are really unfortunately sad, or not funny, >> They are. >> or they're just trying too hard. Now there's like, with this one, I thought oh I bet that's clever. >> Lena: It is very cool. Yes, I love it. >> I saw a good one yesterday. >> Yeah? >> We fix shit, 'member? >> Oh yeah, yeah. >> That was pretty good. >> I like when they're >> That's a pretty good one. >> just straightforward, like that, yeah yeah. >> But the only thing with this is when you're say in front of a green screen, you look as though you've got no tummy. >> A portal through your body. >> And so, when we did our first - >> That's a really good point, actually. >> Yeah, it's like the black hole to nothingless. And I'm like wow, that's my soul. >> I was just going to say, I don't want to see my soul like that. I don't want to know. >> But we had to do like, it was just when the pandemic first started, so we had to do our big presentation live announcement from home. And so they shipped us all this camera equipment for home and thank God my partner knows how that works, so he set it all up. And then he had me test with a green screen, and he's like, you have no tummy. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? He's like, come and see. It's like this, I dunno what it was. So I had to actually go upstairs and felt tip with a magic marker and make it black. >> Wow. >> So that was why I did for two hours on a Friday, yeah. >> Couldn't think of another alternative, huh? >> Well no, 'cause I'm myopic when it comes to marketing and I knew I had to keep the tshirt on, and I just did that. >> Yeah. >> In hindsight, yes I could have worn an "I Fix Shit" tshirt, but I don't think my husband would've been very happy. I secure shit? >> There you go, yeah. >> There you go. >> Over to you, Savannah. >> I was going to say, I got acquainted, I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to say it 'cause we're here right now. I got acquainted with theCUBE, wearing a shirt that said "Unfuck Kubernetes," 'cause it was a marketing campaign that I was running for one of my clients at Kim Con last year. >> That's so good. >> Yeah, so - >> Oh my God. I'll give you one of these if you get me one of those. >> I can, we can do a swapskee. We can absolutely. >> We need a few edits on this film, on the file. >> Lena: Okay, this is nothing - >> We're fallin' off the wheel. Okay, on that note, I'm going to bring us to our challenge that we discussed, before we got started on this really diverse discussion that we have had in the last 15 minutes. We've covered everything from felt tip markers to nuclear power plants. >> To the darkness of my soul. >> To the darkness of all of our souls. >> All of our souls, yes. >> Which is perhaps a little too accurate, especially at this stage in the conference. You've obviously seen a lot Lena, and you've been rockin' it, I know John was in your suite up here, at at at the Venetian. What's your 30 second hot take? Most important story, coming out of the show or for you all at Mongo this year? >> Genuinely, it was when I learned that two-thirds of the customers that had been mentioned, here, are MongoDB customers. And that just exploded in my head. 'Cause now I'm thinking of all the numbers and the metrics and how we can use that. And I just think it's amazing, so. >> Yeah, congratulations on that. That's awesome. >> Yeah, I thought it was amazing. >> And it makes sense actually, 'cause Mongo so easy to use. We were talking about Tengen. >> We knew you when, I feel that's our like, we - >> Yeah, but it's true. And so, Mongo was just really easy to use. And people are like, ah, it doesn't scale. It's like, turns out it actually does scale. >> Lena: Turns out, it scales pretty well. >> Well Lena, without question, this is my favorite conversation of the show so far. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Dave: Great to see you. >> It's always a pleasure. >> Dave: Thanks Lena. >> Thank you. >> And thank you all, tuning in live, for tolerating wherever we take these conversations. >> Dave: Whatever that was. >> I bet you weren't ready for this one, folks. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas, Nevada. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're washing theCUBE, the leader for high tech coverage.

>>Hi everybody. This is Dave Volante. Welcome to this cube conversation where we're going to go back in time a little bit and explore the early days of Kubernetes. Talk about how it formed the improbable events, perhaps that led to it. And maybe how customers are taking advantage of containers and container orchestration today, and maybe where the industry is going. Matt Provo is here. He's the founder and CEO of storm forge and Chandler Huntington hoes. Hoisington is the general manager of EKS edge and hybrid AWS guys. Thanks for coming on. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks. So, Jenny, you were the vice president of engineering at miso sphere. Is that, is that correct? >>Well, uh, vice-president engineering basis, fear and then I ran product and engineering for DTQ masons. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you were there in the early days of, of container orchestration and Matt, you, you were working at a S a S a Docker swarm shop, right? Yep. Okay. So I mean, a lot of people were, you know, using your platform was pretty novel at the time. Uh, it was, it was more sophisticated than what was happening with, with Kubernetes. Take us back. What was it like then? Did you guys, I mean, everybody was coming out. I remember there was, I think there was one Docker con and everybody was coming, the Kubernetes was announced, and then you guys were there, doc Docker swarm was, was announced and there were probably three or four other startups doing kind of container orchestration. And what, what were those days like? Yeah. >>Yeah. I wasn't actually atmosphere for those days, but I know them well, I know the story as well. Um, uh, I came right as we started to pivot towards Kubernetes there, but, um, it's a really interesting story. I mean, obviously they did a documentary on it and, uh, you know, people can watch that. It's pretty good. But, um, I think that, from my perspective, it was, it was really interesting how this happened. You had basically, uh, con you had this advent of containers coming out, right? So, so there's new novel technology and Solomon, and these folks started saying, Hey, you know, wait a second, wait if I put a UX around these couple of Linux features that got launched a couple of years ago, what does that look like? Oh, this is pretty cool. Um, so you have containers starting to crop up. And at the same time you had folks like ThoughtWorks and other kind of thought leaders in the space, uh, starting to talk about microservices and saying, Hey, monoliths are bad and you should break up these monoliths into smaller pieces. >>And any Greenfield application should be broken up into individuals, scalable units that a team can can own by themselves, and they can scale independent of each other. And you can write tests against them independently of other components. And you should break up these big, big mandalas. And now we are kind of going back to model this, but that's for another day. Um, so, so you had microservices coming out and then you also had containers coming out, same time. So there was like, oh, we need to put these microservices in something perfect. We'll put them in containers. And so at that point, you don't really, before that moment, you didn't really need container orchestration. You could just run a workload in a container and be done with it, right? You didn't need, you don't need Kubernetes to run Docker. Um, but all of a sudden you had tons and tons of containers and you had to manage these in some way. >>And so that's where container orchestration came, came from. And, and Ben Heineman, the founder of Mesa was actually helping schedule spark at the time at Berkeley. Um, and that was one of the first workloads with spark for Macy's. And then his friends at Twitter said, Hey, come over, can you help us do this with containers at Twitter? He said, okay. So when it helped them do it with containers at Twitter, and that's kinda how that branch of the container wars was started. And, um, you know, it was really, really great technology and it actually is still in production in a lot of shops today. Um, uh, more and more people are moving towards Kubernetes and Mesa sphere saw that trend. And at the end of the day, Mesa sphere was less concerned about, even though they named the company Mesa sphere, they were less concerned about helping customers with Mesa specifically. They really want to help customers with these distributed problems. And so it didn't make sense to, to just do Mesa. So they would took on Kubernetes as well. And I hope >>I don't do that. I remember, uh, my, my co-founder John furrier introduced me to Jerry Chen way back when Jerry is his first, uh, uh, VC investment with Greylock was Docker. And we were talking in these very, obviously very excited about it. And, and his Chandler was just saying, it said Solomon and the team simplified, you know, containers, you know, simple and brilliant. All right. So you guys saw the opportunity where you were Docker swarm shop. Why? Because you needed, you know, more sophisticated capabilities. Yeah. But then you, you switched why the switch, what was happening? What was the mindset back then? We ran >>And into some scale challenges in kind of operationalize or, or productizing our kind of our core machine learning. And, you know, we, we, we saw kind of the, the challenges, luckily a bit ahead of our time. And, um, we happen to have someone on the team that was also kind of moonlighting, uh, as one of the, the original core contributors to Kubernetes. And so as this sort of shift was taking place, um, we, we S we saw the flexibility, uh, of what was becoming Kubernetes. Um, and, uh, I'll never forget. I left on a Friday and came back on a Monday and we had lifted and shifted, uh, to Kubernetes. Uh, the challenge was, um, you know, you, at that time, you, you didn't have what you have today through EKS. And, uh, those kinds of services were, um, just getting that first cluster up and running was, was super, super difficult, even in a small environment. >>And so I remember we, you know, we, we finally got it up and running and it was like, nobody touch it, don't do anything. Uh, but obviously that doesn't, that doesn't scale either. And so that's really, you know, being kind of a data science focused shop at storm forge from the very beginning. And that's where our core IP is. Uh, our, our team looked at that problem. And then we looked at, okay, there are a bunch of parameters and ways that I can tune this application. And, uh, why are the configurations set the way that they are? And, you know, uh, is there room to explore? And that's really where, unfortunately, >>Because Mesa said much greater enterprise capabilities as the Docker swarm, at least they were heading in that direction, but you still saw that Kubernetes was, was attractive because even though it didn't have all the security features and enterprise features, because it was just so simple. I remember Jen Goldberg who was at Google at the time saying, no, we were focused on keeping it simple and we're going from mass adoption, but does that kind of what you said? >>Yeah. And we made a bet, honestly. Uh, we saw that the, uh, you know, the growing community was really starting to, you know, we had a little bit of an inside view because we had, we had someone that was very much in the, in the original part, but you also saw the, the tool chain itself start to, uh, start to come into place right. A little bit. And it's still hardening now, but, um, yeah, we, as any, uh, as any startup does, we, we made a pivot and we made a bet and, uh, this, this one paid off >>Well, it's interesting because, you know, we said at the time, I mean, you had, obviously Amazon invented the modern cloud. You know, Microsoft has the advantage of has got this huge software stays, Hey, just now run it into the cloud. Okay, great. So they had their entry point. Google didn't have an entry point. This is kind of a hail Mary against Amazon. And, and I, I wrote a piece, you know, the improbable, Verizon, who Kubernetes to become the O S you know, the cloud, but, but I asked, did it make sense for Google to do that? And it never made any money off of it, but I would argue they, they were kind of, they'd be irrelevant if they didn't have, they hadn't done that yet, but it didn't really hurt. It certainly didn't hurt Amazon EKS. And you do containers and your customers you've embraced it. Right. I mean, I, I don't know what it was like early days. I remember I've have talked to Amazon people about this. It's like, okay, we saw it and then talk to customers, what are they doing? Right. That's kind of what the mindset is, right? Yeah. >>That's, I, I, you know, I've, I've been at Amazon a couple of years now, and you hear the stories of all we're customer obsessed. We listened to our customers like, okay, okay. We have our company values, too. You get told them. And when you're, uh, when you get first hired in the first day, and you never really think about them again, but Amazon, that really is preached every day. It really is. Um, uh, and that we really do listen to our customers. So when customers start asking for communities, we said, okay, when we built it for them. So, I mean, it's, it's really that simple. Um, and, and we also, it's not as simple as just building them a Kubernetes service. Amazon has a big commitment now to start, you know, getting involved more in the community and working with folks like storm forage and, and really listening to customers and what they want. And they want us working with folks like storm florigen and that, and that's why we're doing things like this. So, well, >>It's interesting, because of course, everybody looks at the ecosystem, says, oh, Amazon's going to kill the ecosystem. And then we saw an article the other day in, um, I think it was CRN, did an article, great job by Amazon PR, but talk about snowflake and Amazon's relationship. And I've said many times snowflake probably drives more than any other ISV out there. And so, yeah, maybe the Redshift guys might not love snowflake, but Amazon in general, you know, they're doing great three things. And I remember Andy Jassy said to me, one time, look, we love the ecosystem. We need the ecosystem. They have to innovate too. If they don't, you know, keep pace, you know, they're going to be in trouble. So that's actually a healthy kind of a dynamic, I mean, as an ecosystem partner, how do you, >>Well, I'll go back to one thing without the work that Google did to open source Kubernetes, a storm forge wouldn't exist, but without the effort that AWS and, and EKS in particular, um, provides and opens up for, for developers to, to innovate and to continue, continue kind of operationalizing the shift to Kubernetes, um, you know, we wouldn't have nearly the opportunity that we do to actually listen to them as well, listen to the users and be able to say, w w w what do you want, right. Our entire reason for existence comes from asking users, like, how painful is this process? Uh, like how much confidence do you have in the, you know, out of the box, defaults that ship with your, you know, with your database or whatever it is. And, uh, and, and how much do you love, uh, manually tuning your application? >>And, and, uh, obviously nobody's said, I love that. And so I think as that ecosystem comes together and continues expanding, um, it's just, it opens up a huge opportunity, uh, not only for existing, you know, EKS and, uh, AWS users to continue innovating, but for companies like storm forge, to be able to provide that opportunity for them as well. And, and that's pretty powerful. So I think without a lot of the moves they've made, um, you know, th the door wouldn't be nearly as open for companies like, who are, you know, growing quickly, but are smaller to be able to, you know, to exist. >>Well, and I was saying earlier that, that you've, you're in, I wrote about this, you're going to get better capabilities. You're clearly seeing that cluster management we've talked about better, better automation, security, the whole shift left movement. Um, so obviously there's a lot of momentum right now for Kubernetes. When you think about bare metal servers and storage, and then you had VM virtualization, VMware really, and then containers, and then Kubernetes as another abstraction, I would expect we're not at the end of the road here. Uh, what's next? Is there another abstraction layer that you would think is coming? Yeah, >>I mean, w for awhile, it looked like, and I remember even with our like board members and some of our investors said, well, you know, well, what about serverless? And, you know, what's the next Kubernetes and nothing, we, as much as I love Kubernetes, um, which I do, and we do, um, nothing about what we particularly do. We are purpose built for Kubernetes, but from a core kind of machine learning and problem solving standpoint, um, we could apply this elsewhere, uh, if we went that direction and so time will tell what will be next, then there will be something, uh, you know, that will end up, you know, expanding beyond Kubernetes at some point. Um, but, you know, I think, um, without knowing what that is, you know, our job is to, to, to serve our, you know, to serve our customers and serve our users in the way that they are asking for that. >>Well, serverless obviously is exploding when you look again, and we tucked the ETR survey data, when you look at, at the services within Amazon and other cloud providers, you know, the functions off, off the charts. Uh, so that's kind of an interesting and notable now, of course, you've got Chandler, you've got edge in your title. You've got hybrid in, in your title. So, you know, this notion of the cloud expanding, it's not just a set of remote services, just only in the public cloud. Now it's, it's coming to on premises. You actually got Andy, Jesse, my head space. He said, one time we just look at it. The data centers is another edge location. Right. Okay. That's a way to look at it and then you've got edge. Um, so that cloud is expanding, isn't it? The definition of cloud is, is, is evolving. >>Yeah, that's right. I mean, customers one-on-one run workloads in lots of places. Um, and that's why we have things like, you know, local zones and wavelengths and outposts and EKS anywhere, um, EKS, distro, and obviously probably lots more things to come. And there's, I always think of like, Amazon's Kubernetes strategy on a manageability scale. We're on one far end of the spectrum, you have EKS distro, which is just a collection of the core Kubernetes packages. And you could, you could take those and stand them up yourself in a broom closet, in a, in a retail shop. And then on the other far in the spectrum, you have EKS far gate where you can just give us your container and we'll handle everything for you. Um, and then we kind of tried to solve everything in between for your data center and for the cloud. And so you can, you can really ask Amazon, I want you to manage my control plane. I want you to manage this much of my worker nodes, et cetera. And oh, I actually want help on prem. And so we're just trying to listen to customers and solve their problems where they're asking us to solve them. Cut, >>Go ahead. No, I would just add that in a more vertically focused, uh, kind of orientation for us. Like we, we believe that op you know, optimization capabilities should transcend the location itself. And, and, and so whether that's part public part, private cloud, you know, that's what I love part of what I love about EKS anywhere. Uh, it, you know, you shouldn't, you should still be able to achieve optimal results that connect to your business objectives, uh, wherever those workloads, uh, are, are living >>Well, don't wince. So John and I coined this term called Supercloud and people laugh about it, but it's different. It's, it's, you know, people talk about multi-cloud, but that was just really kind of vendor diversity. Right? I got to running here, I'm running their money anywhere. Uh, but, but individually, and so Supercloud is this concept of this abstraction layer that floats wherever you are, whether it's on prem, across clouds, and you're taking advantage of those native primitives, um, and then hiding that underlying complexity. And that's what, w re-invent the ecosystem was so excited and they didn't call it super cloud. We, we, we called it that, but they're clearly thinking differently about the value that they can add on top of Goldman Sachs. Right. That to me is an example of a Supercloud they're taking their on-prem data and their, their, their software tooling connecting it to AWS. They're running it on AWS, but they're, they're abstracting that complexity. And I think you're going to see a lot, a lot more of that. >>Yeah. So Kubernetes itself, in many cases is being abstracted away. Yeah. There's a disability of a disappearing act for Kubernetes. And I don't mean that in a, you know, in an, a, from an adoption standpoint, but, uh, you know, Kubernetes itself is increasingly being abstracted away, which I think is, is actually super interesting. Yeah. >>Um, communities doesn't really do anything for a company. Like we run Kubernetes, like, how does that help your bottom line? That at the end of the day, like companies don't care that they're running Kubernetes, they're trying to solve a problem, which is the, I need to be able to deploy my applications. I need to be able to scale them easily. I need to be able to update them easily. And those are the things they're trying to solve. So if you can give them some other way to do that, I'm sure you know, that that's what they want. It's not like, uh, you know, uh, a big bank is making more money because they're running Kubernetes. That's not, that's not the current, >>It gets subsumed. It's just become invisible. Right. Exactly. You guys back to the office yet. What's, uh, what's the situation, >>You know, I, I work for my house and I, you know, we go into the office a couple of times a week, so it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's a crazy time. It's a crazy time to be managing and hiring. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a challenge, but there's a lot of benefits of working home. I got two young kids, so I get to see them, uh, grow up a little bit more working, working out of my house. So it's >>Nice also. >>So we're in, even as a smaller startup, we're in 26, 27 states, uh, Canada, Germany, we've got a little bit of presence in Japan, so we're very much distributed. Um, we, uh, have not gone back and I'm not sure we will >>Permanently remote potentially. >>Yeah. I mean, w we made a, uh, pretty like for us, the timing of our series B funding, which was where we started hiring a lot, uh, was just before COVID started really picking up. So we, you know, thankfully made a, a pretty good strategic decision to say, we're going to go where the talent is. And yeah, it was harder to find for sure, especially in w we're competing, it's incredibly competitive. Uh, but yeah, we've, it was a good decision for us. Um, we are very about, you know, getting the teams together in person, you know, as often as possible and in the safest way possible, obviously. Um, but you know, it's been a, it's been a pretty interesting, uh, journey for us and something that I'm, I'm not sure I would, I would change to be honest with you. Yeah. >>Well, Frank Slootman, snowflakes HQ to Montana, and then can folks like Michael Dell saying, Hey, same thing as you, wherever they want to work, bring yourself and wherever you are as cool. And do you think that the hybrid mode for your team is kind of the, the, the operating mode for the, for the foreseeable future is a couple of, >>No, I think, I think there's a lot of benefits in both working from the office. I don't think you can deny like the face-to-face interactions. It feels good just doing this interview face to face. Right. And I can see your mouth move. So it's like, there's a lot of benefits to that, um, over a chime call or a zoom call or whatever, you know, that, that also has advantages, right. I mean, you can be more focused at home. And I think some version of hybrid is probably in the industry's future. I don't know what Amazon's exact plans are. That's above my pay grade, but, um, I know that like in general, the industry is definitely moving to some kind of hybrid model. And like Matt said, getting people I'm a big fan at Mesa sphere, we ran a very diverse, like remote workforce. We had a big office in Germany, but we'd get everybody together a couple of times a year for engineering week or, or something like this. And you'd get a hundred people, you know, just dedicated to spending time together at a hotel and, you know, Vegas or Hamburg or wherever. And it's a really good time. And I think that's a good model. >>Yeah. And I think just more ETR data, the current thinking now is that, uh, the hybrid is the number one sort of model, uh, 36% that the CIO is believe 36% of the workforce are going to be hybrid permanently is kind of their, their call a couple of days in a couple of days out. Um, and the, the percentage that is remote is significantly higher. It probably, you know, high twenties, whereas historically it's probably 15%. Yeah. So permanent changes. And that, that changes the infrastructure. You need to support it, the security models and everything, you know, how you communicate. So >>When COVID, you know, really started hitting and in 2020, um, the big banks for example, had to, I mean, you would want to talk about innovation and ability to, to shift quickly. Two of the bigger banks that have in, uh, in fact, adopted Kubernetes, uh, were able to shift pretty quickly, you know, systems and things that were, you know, historically, you know, it was in the office all the time. And some of that's obviously shifted back to a certain degree, but that ability, it was pretty remarkable actually to see that, uh, take place for some of the larger banks and others that are operating in super regulated environments. I mean, we saw that in government agencies and stuff as well. >>Well, without the cloud, no, this never would've happened. Yeah. >>And I think it's funny. I remember some of the more old school manager thing people are, aren't gonna work less when they're working from home, they're gonna be distracted. I think you're seeing the opposite where people are too much, they get burned out because you're just running your computer all day. And so I think that we're learning, I think everyone, the whole industry is learning. Like, what does it mean to work from home really? And, uh, it's, it's a fascinating thing is as a case study, we're all a part of right now. >>I was talking to my wife last night about this, and she's very thoughtful. And she w when she was in the workforce, she was at a PR firm and a guy came in a guest speaker and it might even be in the CEO of the company asking, you know, what, on average, what time who stays at the office until, you know, who leaves by five o'clock, you know, a few hands up, or who stays until like eight o'clock, you know, and enhancement. And then, so he, and he asked those people, like, why, why can't you get your work done in a, in an eight hour Workday? I go home. Why don't you go in? And I sit there. Well, that's interesting, you know, cause he's always looking at me like, why can't you do, you know, get it done? And I'm saying the world has changed. Yeah. It really has where people are just on all the time. I'm not sure it's sustainable, quite frankly. I mean, I think that we have to, you know, as organizations think about, and I see companies doing it, you guys probably do as well, you know, take a four day, you know, a week weekend, um, just for your head. Um, but it's, there's no playbook. >>Yeah. Like I said, we're a part of a case study. It's also hard because people are distributed now. So you have your meetings on the east coast, you can wake up at seven four, and then you have meetings on the west coast. You stay until seven o'clock therefore, so your day just stretches out. So you've got to manage this. And I think we're, I think we'll figure it out. I mean, we're good at figuring this stuff. >>There's a rise in asynchronous communication. So with things like slack and other tools, as, as helpful as they are in many cases, it's a, it, isn't always on mentality. And like, people look for that little green dot and you know, if you're on the you're online. So my kids, uh, you know, we have a term now for me, cause my office at home is upstairs and I'll come down. And if it's, if it's during the day, they'll say, oh dad, you're going for a walk and talk, you know, which is like, it was my way of getting away from the desk, getting away from zoom. And like, you know, even in Boston, uh, you know, getting outside, trying to at least, you know, get a little exercise or walk and get, you know, get my head away from the computer screen. Um, but even then it's often like, oh, I'll get a slack notification on my phone or someone will call me even if it's not a scheduled walk and talk. Um, uh, and so it is an interesting, >>A lot of ways to get in touch or productivity is presumably going to go through the roof. But now, all right, guys, I'll let you go. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. Really appreciate it. And thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Alante and we'll see you next time.

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2018, all the action is happening for Amazon Web Services. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Dave six years covering Amazon, great opportunity, a lot of news, Red Hat is a big part of it, Mike Ferris is here. Vice President, Technical Business Development for Red Hat, welcome back, good to see you. >> Likewise. >> A lot's going with you guys since our Red Hat Summit days in San Francisco just a few months ago. >> Yeah. >> Big news hit. >> Yeah. >> The bomb around the world, the rock that hit the ground really hard, shook everyone up, surprised everyone including me, I'm like "Wow, IBM and Red Hat". What an interesting relationship, obviously the history with IBM has been good. Talk about the announcement with IBM because this is huge. Of course, big numbers, but also impact wise pretty big. >> Yeah, it's exciting times right? And if you kind of look at, you know, from the perspective of Red Hat in this, this will allow us to really scale and accelerate what we've already been doing for the past, you know, since really the 1994 era when Red Hat was founded and, you know, it kind of validates a lot of what we've put into open source and enterprise customers since then. You know, we really see a couple of key outtakes from this, one of which is, certainly it's going to give us the resources to be able to really grow with the scale that we need to. It's also going to allow us to invest more in open source in emerging areas, bring the value of scale and certainly choice and flexibility to more customers, and then ultimately kind of the global advantage of hybrid and multi cloud, we'll be able to reach more partners and customers everywhere, and it puts us several years ahead of where we have been and where we would have been frankly, and ultimately our intent is that with IBM we'll become the leading hybrid and multi cloud provider overall. >> Yeah, Jimmy and Jim Whitehurst kind of ruined our Sunday, we were sitting down to watch football and he's like got the announcement. And then Jimmy kept saying "It's not backend loaded, it's not backend loaded" and then you start to realize, wow, IBM has an enormous business of managing applications that need to be modernized and OpenShift is obviously a great place to do that so, it's got to be super exciting for you guys to have that giant new opportunity to go after as well as global scale that you didn't have before. >> And, you know, this extends the stuff that we did, announced in May at Red Hat Summit with IBM where we really focused on how do we take WebSphere DB2MQ, running on IBM cloud private, running on OpenShift, and make that the hybrid choice. And so it's a natural extension of what we've already been doing and it gives us a lot more resources than we would have otherwise. >> This is good, coming into the next segment I want to chat about is RHEL, and what people might not understand from the announcment is the synergy you guys have with IBM because, being a student of Red Hat, being just in the industry when you guys were rebels, open source, second tier citizen, and the enterprise, the adoption then became tier one service. I mean you guys have, level of service, 17 years or something, huge numbers, but remember where it all started. And then you became a tier one supplier to almost all the enterprises, so you're actually a product company as well as a huge open source player. That's powerful and unique. >> Absolutely, even if you look at kind of what Amazon is doing this week and have been doing over the years, they're a huge value ad provider of open source technology as well, and one of the statements that we've always made is, the public cloud would not exist if not for Linux and open source, and so everything has been based upon that. There's one provider that doesn't use Linux as the base of their platform but certainly as we've taken the in roads into the enterprise, you know, I was there when it started with just turning Red Hat Enterprise Linux on and then bringing it from the edge of network into the data center and talking about major providers like Oracle, HP, Del, IBM as part of that. Now, we're looking at "Is it a de facto standard?", and everyone including Amazon and all of it's competitors are really invested heavily in the open source world. >> And so, let's talk about the impact to the products, okay so one of the things that has come up, at least on my Twitter feed and the conversations is, okay, it's going to take some time to close the deal, you're still Red Hat, you're still doing your things, what's the impact to the customers and to the ecosystem in your mind? How are you guys talking about that right now? Obviously, it's more of the same, keep the Red Hat same, unique, independent, what new thing is going to come out of it? >> So, to be clear, the deal has not closed, right, so there's not a lot we're going to say otherwise. >> A year away, you got a lot of work to do. >> Our focus is what it always has been. Let's build the best enterprise products using the open source development model and make those available across all public and hybrid cloud environments. >> At a certain level, that's enterprise, multi-year, old Red Hat, same Red Hat model, alright. >> But let me follow up on that, because you're a believer in multi cloud, we're a believer in, whatever you call it, multiple clouds, customers are going to use multiple clouds. We believe that, you believe that, it seems like Amazon has a slightly different perspective on that, >> Cause they're one cloud. >> in that this greater value, right cause they're one cloud, there's greater value, but it seems like the reality when you talk to customers is, we're not just one company, we've got different divisions, and eventually we've got to bring those together in some kind of extraction layer. That's what you guys want to be, right? So, your perspectives on multi cloud? >> Absolutely, so, each individual department, each project, each developer, in all of these major enterprises, you know, has a different vantage, and yes, there are corporate standards, golden masters of RHEL that get produced, everybody's supposed to be using, but you know, the practicalities of how you develop software, especially in the age of dev ops and containers and moving forward is actually, you have to have the choice necessary to meet your specific needs, and while we will absolutely do everything we can to make sure that things are consistent, I mean, we started this with RHEL consistency, on and off premise, when we did the original Amazon relationship. The point is, you need to be able to give people the flexibility and choice that they desire, regardless of what area of the company that they're in, and that's going to be the focus, regardless of whether it's Microsoft, Amazon, Google, IBM clouds, international clouds with Alibaba, it's all the same to us and we have to make sure it's there. >> What's always great about the cloud shows, especially this one, it's one of my favorites, because it really is dev ops deep in the mindset culture. As you see AI and machine learning start to get powered by all these great resources, computer, et cetera, the developer is going crazy, there's going to be another renaissance in software development, and then you got things like Kubernetes and containers now mainstream. Kubernetes almost, I say, de facto standard. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely happened, you guys had a big part of making that happen. People are now agreeing on things, so the formation's coming together pretty quickly, you're seeing the growth, we're hearing terms like "co-creation", "co-opetition", those are signals for a large rising tide, your thoughts? >> So, it's interesting, we were an early investor in Kubernetes, we actually launched OpenShift prior to Kubernetes, and then we adopted it and made a shift of our platform before it was too late. We did the same thing with hypervisors when we moved from Zen to KBM, but this overall approach is, once we see the energy happening both in the community and the early customers, then you see the partners start to come on board, it becomes the de facto standard, it's really crucial for us as an open source company to make sure we follow those trends, and then we help mature them across the business ecosystem, and that's something we've loved being able to engage with. I mean, Google certainly instigated the Kubernetes movement, but then it starts to propagate, just like on the open stack side, it came out of Rackspace and Nasa and then moved on to different areas and so, you know, our focus is, how do we continue that choice and that evolution overall? >> How would you talk about the impact of Kubernetes if someone says "Hey Mike, what's the real impact, what is it going to accomplish at the end of the day?" What's your view of that? >> It will have the same impact that the Linux current standardization has had, you know, but in this case for micro services and application packaging and being able to do dev ops much more efficiently across heterogeneous platforms. >> Does it make it easier or less painful or does it go away? Is it automated under the covers? I mean, this is a big, awesome opportunity. >> So the orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes combined with all the other tools that surround key container platforms like OpenShift, really give that developer the full life cycle environment to be able to take something from concept through deployment, and onto the maintenance phases, and you know, what we end up doing is we look at, okay the technologies are there, what value ads to we have around that to make sure that a customer and a developer cn actually maintain this thing long term and keep their enterprise applications up? >> So, security for example. >> Security is a great example, right? How do we make sure that every container that gets deployed on Kubernetes platforms or by Kubernetes platforms, that every container that's deployed which, keep in mind, is an operating system, it has an operating system in the container itself, how is that kept up to date? How do you make sure that when the next security errata is released, from us or a different vendor possibly, how do you make sure that that container is secure? And, you know, we've done a lot in our registry as well as our catalog to make sure that all of our partners and customers can see their containers, know what grade they have in a security context, and be able to grow that. That's one of the core things that we see adding into this Kubernetes value and authorization level. >> It's not a trivial technical problem either. >> No. >> Sometimes micro services aren't so micro. >> It's been part of what we've for RHEL from the start, it's been how do we bring that enterprise value into technology that is maturing out of the open source community and make that available to customers? >> Yeah, one of the key things you guys, first of all, OpenShift has been phenomenal, you guys did a great job with that, been watching that grow, but I think a real seminal moment was the CoreOS acquisition. >> Sure. >> That was a real turbo boost for you guys, great acquisition, fits in with the culture, and then Kubernetes just lifted from that, that was the point but, at the timing of all this, Kubernetes gets mainstream lift, people recognize that the standardization it is a good thing, and then, boom, developers are getting engaged. >> Yeah, and if you see what the CoreOS environment has brought us from over their updates for our platforms, to being able to talk about a registry in the environment. Being able to say that, is kind of additive to this overall messaging, it really rounds out the offering for us, and allows us to participate even more deeply in the communities as well. >> Well, we're looking forward to keeping you covered, we love Kubernetes, we've got a special report called "Kubernetes Special Report" on siliconangle.com, it's called "The Rise Of Kubernetes", it's a dedicated set of content, we're publishing a lot on Kubernetes. Final question I want to get to you because I think it's super important, what's the relationship you have with AWS? And take some time to explain the partnership, how many years, what you guys are doing together, I know you're actively involved, so take a minute. >> It is somewhat blurry, it's been a long time, so 2007 era is when we started in depth with them, and I can remember the early days, actually in the development of S3, prior to EC2, being able to say alright, what is this thing and how does Red Hat participate in this? And I think, yesterday Terry Wiese even mentioned that we were one of the first partners to actually engage in the consumption model and, you know, claiming partial credit for out 34 billion dollar valuation that we just got announced. But, you know, overall the relationship really spawned out of that, how do we help build a cloud and how do we help offer our products to our customers in a more flexible way? And so that snowballed over the years from just early adopters being able to play with it to now where you see it's many many millions of dollars that are being generated in customers and they think, in the hundreds of millions of hours of our products being consumed, at least within a month if not shorter timeframes, every time period we have. >> You know that's an unsung benefit that people might not know about with Red Hat is that, you guys are in early markets because, one, everyone uses Linux pretty much these days for anything core, meaningful. And you listen to community, and so you guys are always involved in big moving things, cloud, Amazon, 2007, it was command line back then. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't even, I think RightScale just came online that year, so you remember. You guys are always in all these markets so it's a good indicator, you guys are a bellwether, I think it's a good beacon to look at. >> And we do this, certainly on the container space, and the middleware space, and the storage space, you know, we replicate this model and, including in management, about how do we actually invest in the right places where we see the industry and communities going so we can actually help those? >> And you're very partner friendly, you bring a lot to the table, I love the open source ethos, I think that's the future. The future of that ethos of contributing to get value downstream is going to be a business practice, not just software, so you guys are a big part of the industry on that and I want to give you guys props for that. Okay, more Cube coverage here in Las Vegas, AWS Reinvent, after this short break, more live coverage, I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. (electronic music)