>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path. >>It's the Q we are live in Las Vegas at the Bellagio. Lisa Martin, with Dave Volante, we're covering UI path forward for this is our second day of coverage. We've had a lot of great conversations with customers at UI path partners, their senior leaders. And next up, we're going to be talking to, I'm going to say the queen of citizen developer nests. We're not just going to create that title for you. Sydney, Madison Prescott. She's the global head of intelligent automation at Spotify Sydney. Welcome to the program. I >>Am so excited >>To be here. We're excited to have you. So one of my, as we were talking before we went live, we both are big fans of Spotify. I don't know what we would do without it in our personal lives. But talk to me a little bit about Spotify automation, UI path. And I don't want to get into you your book, what you've done for citizen developers. >>Perfect. So Spotify is on a very interesting journey. Uh, we began the journey during the pandemic and we were speaking about this a little bit earlier. And so our journey began with trying to understand how we would tackle, uh, still wanting to upskill our employees, despite the fact that we were in the middle of this kind of global crisis. And so through that endeavor, we decided to actually split out our different, uh, automation capabilities into citizen developer and unattended automation. And we did all of this through a center of excellence. So a centralized, uh, COE, which would facilitate the growth of the automations, uh, whether on the citizen developer side or the unattended side. And through this programs, we set up, uh, several different trainings where we could facilitate the growth of the citizen developer community through five day, what we call bot boot camps and the bot boot camp is in essence, um, five day training, about four and a half, five hours a day, where we take anyone at Spotify who would like to upskill in this type of automation. And we teach them everything from the basics of robotic process automation, all the way to, you know, what are all of the Spotify specific things that you have to do in order to maintain a robust, uh, citizen developer footprint within your team. And so through that, uh, that entire journey, it's been quite amazing. We started with a very small footprint in our accounting team, and we have scaled now to over 100 citizen developers, uh, in a variety of functions within Spotify. >>And what was the role that you came to Spotify to do? Cause you came there, went there right before the everything happened. >>Yes. So I was actually, uh, brought into Spotify to stand up and scale out our intelligent automation center of excellence. >>So the center of excellence is, is sort of the main spring of knowledge, training innovation. And then the, the citizen developer piece, it sounds like you're pushing out distributing that knowledge. Right. And so I'm interested in that sort of architecture of automation is that you've got a combination of centralized expertise and decentralized innovation. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. So it's very interesting actually. So we facilitate the citizen developer program through the center of excellence. So you can think of the center of excellence as the foundation of that knowledge. And our goal is to democratize that knowledge throughout the enterprise. And the way we do that is through the training. Uh, we facilitate the governance of the program. So making sure that all of the infrastructure is properly set up, uh, enabling the citizens, if they need support, just talking about ideation, uh, even so far as up-skilling as well. So upskilling all the way to a power user, uh, whereby those users could become true innovators and facilitate a wide variety of automations within their teams. And was it >>The events of the last 18 months? It really catalyzed this and kind of led you to really become a big advocate for citizen led development. >>It did. So we initially were starting with just the center of excellence and an unintended footprint, and we quickly pivoted and realized that we needed to in order to scale, uh, significantly given the, the situation working virtually, uh, we are a distributed team around the world that it was critical for our success that we could, uh, really distribute to this workout. And we felt that the best way to do that was through standing up a citizen developer program. >>The things that I'm trying to understand is the relationship between automation and data. And I look at Spotify in many respects is a data company, at least a company who really understands data. And I see you building all these awesome data products. I'm a subscriber as well, but you know, you've added podcasts, you've got contributors to those podcasts. You've obviously got artists and you know, these people obviously have to be paid. You have this sort of interesting ecosystem and these are all data products, if you will, that you guys build. And it's very cool sort of business model. What's the relationship between data and automation? >>Well, it is a big relationship. I would actually say it is probably the pivotal relationship because in order to tell that compelling story of digital transformation, we have to understand the data behind all of the automations that we're generating. Um, and this is whether it says in developer or COE built. Um, and so for us, it's, it's a critical component of our success that we can pinpoint those key metrics that we are looking at and tracking, you know, what does success mean for our center of excellence? What does it mean for our citizen led program? And this is everything from, you know, increased data quality to risk mitigation of different internal regulatory risk. Uh, it could be something as simple as our saved on automation. So it's, uh, a wide variety of attributes that we're looking at to really pinpoint where the successes are coming from and where we can improve maybe where we need to improve our automation footprint in a given business. >>Why did you write this book? >>Great question. So I believe in citizen development, I think it is a very unique approach to spreading out the way that you can transform your business. And so I saw a lot of struggles as I've gone through I'm in the industry with understanding citizen development, uh, the premise of it, and also understanding the technology behind it. Um, I am a big fan of studio X. And so the book specifically focuses on studio X. Um, it really introducing users to what is studio X and how really teaching individuals, how to upskill themselves, um, just through the use of the book, very intuitive and hopefully taking away some of the fear that the users may have about walking through a platform like studio S >>So what do I have to know to actually, can I read your book and then start coding? Is it by >>That is the goal. Yes. So the goal for the book is very hands-on. So it is, it is a book for, um, the novice business user, uh, someone who is not familiar with RPA, someone who may not even be familiar with UI path, they would be able to pick up this book, go through the set of exercises. It's very robust out over 400 pages. So it really packed a lot of knowledge in there, but the goal would be by the time you walk through every single exercise and complete the book, you would not only understand RPA. You would also understand UI path as a, as a service provider platform. You'd also understand the nuances of studio X. >>So in theory, someone like myself could get your book, download the community edition, start building automations, right? >>Yes, exactly. Exactly. >>You have to Google a few things, but yeah. >>Yes. And it comes with a very robust code code set up. They're able to actually look at the code and review, uh, examples of the code, uh, in a source code repository. So again, it's very novice users it's meant for, to help facilitate just the learning of someone who is maybe curious about RPA, curious about UI path, or just curious about studio app. >>I already have the use case. >>You do have these guys I'm interested in doing it too. I mean, I can tell that it's a passion project of yours that you fundamentally believe in. You know, we saw this morning data from IDC and we've seen lots of different data sources that talk about, oh, automation taking jobs, people being fearful, organizations, not being ready at the same time. We've had such a tumultuous last 18 months that organizations that weren't digital are probably gone and organizations that aren't, how did there was this massive uptake in automation because suddenly you couldn't get bodies into buildings. So tell me about how this book is a facility, first of all, tell us the name of it. And then as a facilitator of those employees who might be worried about their jobs being taken by bots, >>That is a great question. So the, the name of the book is robotic process automation, a citizen developers guide to hyper automation using UI path studio X. And I would say I've heard a lot of the conversation surrounding the loss of jobs, the potential fear, uh, we all we know as humans, we are generally unfortunately, a little resistant to change and, you know, the, I'll say the digital revolution that we're going through, uh, within the workforce, whether it is hybrid work, whether it is completely virtual work, it is a bit daunting. And I understand that fear, I think in alignment with the conversation that we had heard about earlier at forward there, RPA has the ability to generate a massive amount of not only improvements within different industries, but jobs as well. Right? And for someone who is looking at this kind of ever changing landscape, and they're wondering, where do I fit in? >>Am I going to get pushed out of a, of a general, you know, uh, industry? I would say that that fear turned that into power, turned that into ambition. Um, the level of upskilling that you can do on your own, whether it's using UiPath academy, whether it's reaching out to your center of excellence, it's incredible. Um, there's a wide variety of different ways that you can upskill yourself. And in essence, you become, um, a powerful player in your environment because not only do you have the business acumen, you now have the technical acumen, and that is everything. I mean, when we talk about transformation, we talk about where our industry's going. Um, there's a saying that, you know, every company now must be a technology company, right? And so this is the key, even as workers, even as employees, we all must be technologists. And so the real question is, think of yourself and think of this concept. I like to call human augmentation. How can you augment yourself through UI path, through the use of RPA to become that up-skilled worker, that next level worker who will be integral to the success of any company moving from, >>We talk a lot about upscaling. Now, of course, part of that upskilling I presume is learning how to use robotic process automation and the tooling, but it seems that there's more to it than that. And, and you just strike me as a person that's creative, you have a power persona. So what are these sort of intangible skills that, that I need to succeed in this new world? And can I learn them? >>That's a great question. I think one of the biggest skills, being able to think outside of the box, that is huge. Uh, and again, this goes back to at least question about what does it take and what should you, you should really think outside of the box about your own career, about your team, about your company, um, how you can improve upon what is already there, um, or how can you build something completely new that has never been thought of before. And so I think that's the biggest skill. The ability to, um, innovate, think, think innovatively and think outside of the box. Um, I believe it's, it's something that is maybe a little intuitive to some individuals, but you can also learn, you can learn to, um, get out of your own way, so to speak, uh, so that you can actually start to come up with these really creative ways to address, uh, whether it's complex business problems, uh, whether it's at an industry level or even just within your internal enterprise. >>And creativity is actually one of the attributes. And I guess it might not be in your DNA, but if you, you know, it's like humor, humor, right? If you hang out with funny people, you know, if you hang out with creative people, you can, you can learn about apply. >>That's right. That's right. But in the beginning of the pandemic, you know, one of the things that I think we all want, you seem to have a ton of motivation and ambition as Dave was saying. And, and I'm someone that normally has that too, but in the first year of pandemic, that was hard. It's hard to get motivated. It was hard to know where do I fit in? How do you advise? And now of course, when you publish the book six months ago, we're about a year into the pandemic. Things are looking better because here we are in Las Vegas at an in-person event with humans. But how do you, how do you see, how do you recommend to folks that are, that don't have technology backgrounds like you don't, I don't to motivate themselves to go, you can take the control, take it. And everybody don't, we all want control as people and take control of your career path. There are a lot of opportunities out there. How do you advise people navigating this challenging sort of mental state with there's so many opportunities sitting right here? Yes >>That's so I think it, it goes back to the getting out of your own way. It also goes back to really taking a look at assess assessing your own skillset, um, assessing your own personal drivers. What motivates you, uh, whether that is in your personal life, whether that is in your professional life, and then taking a look also at those motivators, how can I look at those and what use can I get out of those to help me to transform my own personal skill set and really grow out, uh, my, my capabilities, right, as a professional it's, it's all about really thinking through, uh, your, I'll say your professional background or role as ever-changing ever-growing. And as long as you approach it with a mindset of constantly growing constantly upskilling, I mean, honestly, the sky is truly the limit. >>I a weird question. If, if, if, if mastering word is a one and let's say learning, um, learning how to use Excel, macros is let's call it a three. Uh, all in the spectrum goes out to a, be a building, a complex, uh, you know, uh, AI model, data science kind of ML model. If that's a 10, where does learning how to code RPA as a citizen developer fit on that spectrum? Good question. >>Oh, that's a great question. I would say somewhere between, Hmm. I would say somewhere between maybe three and four around there, because you there. So again, we, we have so many tools that we can use to help upscale the set of sense at this point that we can really walk them through the nuances, uh, at a pace that is conducive to really retaining the knowledge. So I don't think it's, it's definitely not the level of, let's say, building out a complex, like machine learning model or something of that nature. It may be a little bit more in alignment with, um, if someone is up-skilled and macros, or you may be up-skilled in some other type of scripting, uh, language similar to that, I might even say sometimes a little bit, maybe a little bit less difficult than that, uh, depending on what you're trying to automate, right. The process you're trying to automate the company, >>But inside of a day, I can do something fairly simple, right? Yeah. >>Yes. So we actually, the, the training that we have at Spotify, we train our users from novice. Absolutely no understanding, no knowledge of RPA to building able, being able to build a bot in five days. And those are five half days sessions that the citizen developers attend. And by the morning of the fifth day, they actually have built a bot. And so it's, and it's very powerful, uh, being able to, to upskill someone and show them, I can take you from, you know, absolutely no understanding of RPA to actually having something, a bot that you can showcase that you can run within as little as five half days. I mean, it's very compelling to any business user, right? >>The business impact. Soon as you guys are too young to remember, but there's this thing called Lotus 1, 2, 3, we used to have to go to Lotus class slash file retrieve for you folks who remember this was all keyboard based, but it was game changing in terms of your personal productivity. And it sounds like there's a similar but much, much larger impact with RPA >>Impact. Talk to me about the impact of the program, especially in the last, this year, here we are in October, you mentioned started small, and now there's about a hundred folks. Talk to me about the appetite of that as we've seen this massive acceleration and the need to automate for everyday things that we expect as consumers, whether we're ordering food or buying something online. >>Hmm. So it really is a different mindset in terms of thinking through the way that we work differently. And so we really approached it with, if you're an accountant, think of what is the future role and responsibility of an accountant in this new digital, uh, I'll say environment. And through that, we have been able to really push this idea or this concept of up-skilling as a key element of personal professional success and also team success. Um, and that has been a game changer. So there's a lot of value that comes out of the cohesiveness between the personal desire to upskill and continue to, uh, be a, you know, a consummate professional in whatever role you're in, but also to help your team right, to be, to be, you know, a standout, uh, team player in terms of the skills that you're bringing to the table as both an accountant and someone that has now the power of automation within your skillset. Okay. >>And ask you one more question. And that is something that Dave brought up yesterday as we were, he was sitting on a panel with, and he was the only male, which is not common in our industry. How have you seen the role of females in technology changing? And I'm imagine you do work in stem. Imagine you're a motivational speaker you should be if you're not. Um, but how have you seen the role of females in technology changing in since there's so much opportunity there? >>Yes. That is a great question. I believe that RPA specifically, uh, is an incredible driver of women and influencing more women to enter into stem fields, primarily because it is such an innovative technology. There are so many roles he said that are open, just opening up. Uh, probably I've heard different numbers in terms of acceleration of growth over the next five to 10 years. So we're looking at a plethora of opportunities and these are brand new roles that women who are curious about stem, curious about being a technologist can dive right into from wherever they are. So whether they are a tax professional today, whether they are working within, you know, uh, counting, whether they're working with an internal audit, they have the opportunity now to test the waters. Um, and quite often it is such a, it's such a fascinating field. And as I said, there's so much potential around it and for growth and just for changing, uh, different industries, that it's a great driver for women to actually enter into, uh, stem technology, uh, and really drive change, facilitate change, and have more women at the table, so to speak. Okay. >>And you didn't, you didn't start in tech, in stem, right? I did not. Do you have a law degree or no, you have a Ms. >>So yes, little studies and then I actually, I'm a philosopher. So I started by my degree is in philosophy. I love >>This logic. Yes. I love how you've applied that to >>Yeah. Yes. I was not initially in stem and it was actually through an internship at a technology firm, uh, while I was in college that I don't first open to technology. And it just immediately captivated me just in terms of working, you know, that the speed, the pace, uh, just being able to solve these complex business problems at scale around the world. It was absolutely fascinating to me, obviously still is, but I think testing the waters in that way, um, as I was just talking before, it helped me to understand, I had never envisioned a career in technology, but having an opportunity to test the waters really enabled me to see that, wow, this is something where I have a skillset and it brings out a passion within me that I didn't know that I had. So it was a, it was a win-win. >>That's awesome. No worries. Last question. Where can folks go to get your book? >>Yes. So anywhere books are sold, uh, definitely on Amazon. Uh, we, if you are here at forward, we also are, have a book signing, so you can come find me. I'll be on the patio signing books and, uh, yeah, it's, it's everywhere. And I would love to hear feedback. And we're thinking about a second one. So please let us know how you like the, uh, the activities that are in there. >>Thank you. Congratulations. And Dave's going to pick one up so he can start. >>Yeah. The use case. I'm dying to dig >>In, do a breathing analysis on it, and he was great to have you on the program. Your energy is fantastic. You really open up opportunities for people. I hope that more people will watch this and understand that while the really the sky is really the limit. And, uh, thank you for your time. Absolutely. >>Thank you. It's a pleasure >>For Dave Volante. I'm Lisa Martin. We are live in Vegas at the Bellagio UI path forward for you right back with our next guest.

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of Docker Con Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Everyone welcome back to Docker Con 2020 Docker Con 20. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We're here for virtual event docker con docker, con dot com, and check out all the great footage. And also great guests were talking to all the major thought leaders and people in the industry making it happen as we have this new reality, a great guest and a great segment here from Engine. It's now part of F five, Robb said. Who's the vice president? Product management Sydney, thanks for coming on this segment. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. >>No problem. Happy to be here >>so and UNIX Everyone that does development knows about you. Guys have been very popular product with developers. Number one in the Docker hub will get to that later on this segment. So it's known really in the industry is really easy, easy to use and very reliable component of cloud native and cloud, if you will Anything that working So So I got I got to ask you with the new reality we're living with Covert 19 we now see the new reality that's now apparent to everyone in the world that with new work style, working at home VPNs are under provision now. People working from home, more service area with security. The at scale problems are surface for the executives and business, saying, We need to figure this new reality out because this is not going to change. It's going to move to hybrid when it comes back. But ultimately it exposes and highlights the opportunities around cloud native and kind of shows the operating model of how applications are going to be using. So I think this is going to be mainstream trend for what used to be an inside baseball kind of industry. Conversation around micro services, containers, docker containers, kubernetes. This is all now a tailwind for what will be a massive surge in new APS. I want to get your thoughts and reaction to that as you guys are in the middle of it with your product and the developers would have to build new value on top of it. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. We're also dealing with our own version of this new way of working right. We're also working from home and working remotely and seeing how that impacts us. But as we think about our customers and the folks that leverage in genetics, we started with scaling applications. We have 10 X solution that made it easier to deploy an application, have it scale in a very efficient way. And so it's folks are moving online more and more, relying more on staying connected, no matter where they're working from. Providing that capability is something that's going to continue to be core and will increase in importance. And these folks are looking to build more modern applications or modernize what they already have. Leveraging our technologies is just a natural extension. It's the technology they're already familiar with. They've been relying on it for many years and, you know, as they look to the future, has the capabilities they need to continue to rely on it going forward. >>What are some of the new things that you're working on? You can share with the audience because you're known for tried and true, very reliable. Okay, now you got micro services, which is emerging and very dynamic, literally, figuratively. So what's the new stuff? What do you guys focused on? Can you share some insights into how you're thinking about it and some things that you're doing? >>Yeah, a big part of what we're focusing on is really taking with headaches that come with scaling up applications, especially in the modern world. Now, those headaches are all about understanding the complexity of these new applications, being in the confidence needed to be able to deploy them at scale and understand not only what they're doing, but make sure that if something were to go wrong, they could figure out what was happening. And so, as we think about the investments we're making at the help folks modernize versus just making it easier to employ at modern applications of scale, which is one category of things, second is making sure that you have a really strong understanding of how the application is really working, so that, you know, with if it breaks, it could be fixed quickly. But there opportunities to improve it. We can quickly see the impact of it, and, you know, there's a lot of capabilities we're building in on those two dimensions. And in the third dimension, I would say is around security. I think there's a lot of new surface area. It's being exposed as folks start to build more micro services based applications. And you know, with the technology we have way allow people to buy both rich security capabilities as well as very surgical capabilities, depending on where they need the right functionality. >>And the container business has been really great ride to watch the rise of containers that really someone who has been in software engineering since I was 17. You know, the old way of systems thinking is modernized with containers, and you saw that the beginning of a surge of a sea change Now, actually, with micro services, you just pointed out it's gonna create a whole nother level level of head room. But containers really brought in this notion of making systems work better together, and I think that's really been a great boon for developers. So I got to ask you, you know, Docker containers and now kubernetes on this trend, you guys have been very popular, if not the most popular downloaded container in the hub, and so you've been super popular developers. So what happens next? First? Well, why is that the case and talk to the developers? Why will you continue to be popular? What do you guys have got to keep that that satisfaction going. Why so popular? And how are you going to keep that rolling? >>Yeah, I think. Why so popular? I think we've been fortunate to ride the wave of trusted solutions, right? So folks were already leveraging us for their critical applications. I've been very critical location. It's natural to look to that same text technology as you move to new environments. And, yeah, we've been very fortunate. Teoh have folks continue to trust us with their applications as they move to new environments as a containerized things. And we appreciate that. And we continue to invest in making sure that our feature set is just as capable in those environments as it is anywhere else. And in addition to that, we do invest heavily in making sure that our capabilities and those in the container, space and micro services space specifically, are you staying ahead of where there's a lot of work we're doing to support the next generation capabilities that folks want to be able to leverage but aren't necessarily yet. And that scales from kind of near term things like like G rpc all the way out to HDP three. That's on the horizon. So as we look at the space, we're privileged to have the footprint already. But at the same time, we're not resting on our laurels. We're absolutely investing and making sure that we allow folks to continue to deliver that high quality, high performance application experience no matter what environment they choose to use. >>You know, you know, this whole covert crisis brings up the glass is half full or half empty, depending on your view is you know that due to the two worlds are certainly getting more collision oriented when it come together. The CSO level size of sides of the business and the developer side. We've always said for years other developers on the front lines and it's true, have been cloud native and cloud has been great for developers, but now more than ever, the conversation having on the business side would CSO CIO, CIO, CSO, or whatever have been Hey, my house is on fire after I don't have worry about I don't need to worry about the appliances and what's going on in my kitchen. I need to save my business. And so they're then gonna call the developers to the table. And you're seeing this this kind of formation of critical path thinking around OK, we need to come out of this crisis on a reinvention growth trajectory, which brings the developers into the mix even faster. So I want to get your thoughts on that because, you know, what does that actually mean? Are they gonna be called in for projects? I mean, what's the media's look like? Because you have a zoom meeting or whatever this is going to be now a new dynamic, A new psychology of the business models of these companies with developers are going to be very active leaders in that new role. Because the virtualized world, now that we live in, is going to be different. The applications have more demands and more more needs more capabilities. So take us through your thinking on this and what what should developers expect when they get called to those meetings? >>Yeah, I think you know the trend that we're seeing that's going to accelerate. I believe as a result of this is the internal transformation. So there's a lot of technologies that developers already leverage be able to deliver that absent. There's technologies that they'd like to be able to leverage more and more, especially if they're using more modern environments. And that tends to come into sharp relief against the legacy infrastructure that exists in the legend legacy tooling that oftentimes exists in large organizations. And so, as organizations start to see, not only about the in the world has changed prior to code, and they need to modernize and transform. I think you know this. This crisis will also spur folks toe really put more thought into how they operate. We're already looking at from the remote work perspective, but also the agility that businesses really want to be able to have but traditionally have been prevented from having. And so I think that the developers are really gonna have an opportunity here to really drive that agile change they want to see in an organization so they can get the capabilities they want help to market quickly. That's going to require new tools, new processes within the organization and those types of things that we're fully supported about. We work in legacy environments, work in modern environments. We allow companies to be as agile as they like to be. I think developers have a really good opportunity here to really be leaders of that change. >>That's awesome. Great insight. So let's talk about the developer side. I'll put my developer hat on for a second here. Sydney. OK, The business guys came to me. We're gonna We're gonna do more cool stuff. I get that. That's totally relevant. Very good insight there. But now in the developer and I have been working with engineers, and I know of Engine X. What's in it for me? What's in it for me? The developer? What do I need to know about Engine X now for me, as a developer, going forward? >>Look, I mean, way come from a really strong, open source tradition. And you know the main reason folks use our solutions. Because if we take headaches away right, I mean, we're a tool that allows folks to deliver their applications, deploy their applications without having to worry about the mechanics. And so for the developers, you know what's in it for you is you build, the application will take care of. The rest will make sure it gets delivered with the controls that are required with security and authentication is required. We operate as an extension of your application. We provide a lot of nice things in the front door. All the way back to you know, into the bedroom is technically a spark, as the application infrastructure is concerned. But, you know, we take care of that common infrastructure. They keep infrastructure set of capabilities needed. That application. Developers can simply focus on building the best applications they can, and we'll make sure that they were >>awesome. Now let's get into the F five acquisition combination with Engine X. What does that do for you guys? As a change of capabilities as it increased more head room for solutions? Is there a new joint tech take us through some of the impacts of that combination? >>Yeah, so it's been a good right. It's been just over a year since the deal closed, and we've been aggressively investing in scaling up the vision that we had previously have. We really want to bring applications to life. You make it so that your application not only scalable and highly available, but it's able to adapt over time. And that, of course, would require input from operations teams, of course, but you know, we're trying to make sure that folks have the ability to operate their applications under any circumstances, whether they're being attacked, whether they're under high demand, whether people are moving all over the place, and we're really trying to make it so that the application is essentially bullet proof. So with that five, we have the ability to invest more in that road map in that vision, in addition to bringing on some pretty cool, complimentary capabilities. One of the things that we're really happy to see is the rich security capabilities that five have has that we're now able todo leverage with the Internet solutions side by side, providing no again new ways to get really advanced security capabilities into the right places in your application greeting. Yeah, >>great insights. I really appreciate that That commentary love to get your thoughts on just something that's always been near and dear to my heart, being cloud world since the early days and trying stuff. Now it's fully enterprise ready and doing all sorts of new things that multi cloud hybrid. But remember the days back when Dev Ops was kind of debated? All that is the day of is it ops? And it always had that Dev ops kind of. I'm an operations person or a devil developer. That's kind of generally been resolved in the sense that infrastructure is code is kind of resolve that. But now, with the Covad crisis, you're seeing operations clearly front and center again, right? So you got security ops now coming online, networking up. So I think the new reality and the edge exploding people are home. That's technically an edge. Perimeter security is now the edge point. More and more edge is more and more network traffic is getting more and more complicated. This >>is >>put bring up a lot of conversation around. What is the new formula As you navigate this, how do you attack the problem? Space is how do you create solutions? Is there a playbook? Is there anything that you could share in terms of this new thinking? Because it's gonna be a new trajectory. I think this is an inflection point came from explosions coming of APS. I believe we've been reporting on that. But the thinking has to change. It's going to be pretty crazy. What's your what's your thoughts on this? >>Yeah, I think folks are getting more and more experience with this new way of working on infrastructure of code is absolutely here. Um, automation is absolutely your orchestrations. Absolutely here. And so I see no more and more of these capabilities will get stitched together. And as I said earlier, you know this this organizational transformation It's all about taking the human more and more out of the loop for certain things to be ableto benefit or to the benefit of being able to move more quickly, but in a predictable way. So you're living failures that come with moving quickly. But you're getting that elasticity that you really want. And so, yeah, I think there's more, more adoption of practices. It's not gonna be overnight for folks. But I do think again, this this crisis is gonna give folks an opportunity to really take a deeper look at how they've been operating and where they want to get to, and it's gonna provide an opportunity to accelerate that move, >>you know, from a developer's perspective. The tried and true form of making something complex, easy with us through abstractions making highly performing and highly available. Always a good formula, right? I mean, as the world gets more complex, you still got to move packets around. You still got to run applications. It's just gonna be that tried and true formula of reduce the complexity, make things easier but makes things run faster, make things runs higher scale. This seems to be the play book. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, things that once were hard to becoming easy. And I think we look back three years. Five years from now, we'll see a world that's that's even more automated, moving much more quickly. And some of the things that look difficult now are gonna become commoditized, right? So, you know, as I talked about bringing applications of life and making applications more resilience, more able to protect themselves more ableto, he'll defend all that kind of stuff. The things that the advanced things that we're doing now that folks are playing with will become the easy things, and we'll have new challenges to focus on, especially as we look at things like Ai. We're really starting to get a sense for some of the capabilities we can apply Teoh impact application behaviors and performance. But once you get to the point where you build up a good library of capabilities now, you really have a nice playbook that can become a foundation for even more advanced things. >>Yeah, build that foundation. Scale it up. It's beautiful scales and new competitive Advantage. Lovett Final question. Just take a minute to give the plug for Engine X. Really appreciate your insights here in this segment on this new reality, this new new developer environments going to be huge. Give the plug for engines. What are you guys working on? What should people know about share? What's happened? >>Yeah, so Internet spent, you know, the last decade plus making applications work at scale. I'm really focused now on making applications easy and bringing them to life. And so, you know, the laser focus we have is on taking away the headaches that folks might have, you know, as they try to scale up on their applications. So we're focused on that space we're focused on taking with headaches that folks have is they're trying to make sure that the applications more secure we're taking away the headaches of folks have is they're dealing with complexity of applications. Um, and 80 eyes. You know, that's that's the hottest thing. Right now, people are talking about applications, but they're actually talking about AP eyes that needs to be leveraged, to be able to make their applications really saying so, you know, in all of those spaces, our focus is on making modernization much easier And taking where the headaches associated with doing so. >>Sidney, wrap side with VP of product management at engine X now part of F five. Great conversation. Um, him up on Twitter. He's out there. Great conversation with the community. Really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay. Him up on Twitter? If any questions jump into the event, this is Docker con 2020. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios. Getting all the moat interviews as fast as we can get them to you. Here is Docker con segment. Thanks for watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Narrator: Live, from Las Vegas its theCUBE. Covering NetApp Insight 2017. Brought to you by NetApp. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our live coverage, exclusive coverage at NetApp Insight 2017, it's theCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier, co-host, theCUBE co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, with my co-host, Keith Townsend at CTO Advisor. Our next two guests is Gabe Chapman, Senior Manager, NetApp HCI, and Sidney Sonnier, who's the IT consultant at 4th and Bailey, also a member of the A-Team, a highly regarded, top-credentialed expert. Welcome to theCUBE, guys. Good to see you. >> Hey >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So love the shirt, by the way, great logo, good font, good, comes up great on the camera. >> Thank you. >> We're talking about the rise of the cloud and everything in between, kind of the segment. As a NetApp, A-Team member, and customer. It's here, cloud's here. >> Sidney: Yes >> But it's not yet big in the minds of the Enterprise because they got, it's a path to get there. So, there's public cloud going on, >> Sidney: Right. >> Hybrid clouds, everyone gets that. >> Sidney: Right. >> There's a lot of work to do at home inside a data center. >> Yes, there is, there's an extreme amount of work. And, like you said, these are very exciting times, because we have a blend of all of the technologies and being at an event like this allows us to look at those technologies, look at that fabric, look at that platform, and how we can merge all of those things into an arena that can allow any customer to dynamically move on-prem, off-prem, public cloud, private cloud, but still be able to manage and securely keep all their data in one specific place. >> Gabe, I want to get your thoughts, as he brings up a good point. Architecture's king, it's the cloud architect. Devop has gone mainstream. Pretty much, we all kind of can look at that and say, okay QED, Don, and everyone else put their plans together, but the Enterprises and the folks doing cloud, cloud service providers and everyone else, they have issues, and their plates are full. They have an application development mandate. Get more developers, new kinds of developers, retrain, re-platforming, new onboarding, open source is booming. They have security departments that are unbundling from IT in a way and fully staffed, reporting to the board of directors, top security challenges, data coverage, and then over the top is IoT, industrial IoT. Man, their plate's full. >> Sidney: Right. >> So architecture's huge, and there's a lot of unknown things going on that need to be automated. So it's a real challenge for architects. What's your thoughts. >> So you know, my thoughts about that is, I like to make this joke that there's no book called, The Joy of Menial Tasks. And there are so many of those menial tasks that we do on a day-in and day-out basis, in terms of the Enterprise, whether it's storage, whether it's virtualization, whether it's, whatever it is, right? And I think we've seen this massive shift towards automation and orchestration, and fundamentally the technologies that we're provisioning in today. APIs are king, and they're going to be kind of the focal point, as we move forward. Everything has to have some form of API in it. We have to be making a shift in a transition towards infrastructure as code. At the end of the day the hardware has relevance. It still does, it always will. But the reality is to abstract away the need for that relevance and make it as simple as possible. That's where we have things like hyper converged infrastructure being so at the forefront for so many organizations, NetApp making a foray into this space, as well, is to push, to simplify as much as possible, the day-to-day minutiae, and the infrastructure provisioning. And then, transition those resources over towards getting those next-generation data center applications up, running, and functional. >> Old adage that's been in the industry around making things simple, as our cubbies like an aircraft carrier. But when you go below the water lines, everyone in little canoes paddling, bumping into each other. These silos, if you will. >> Gabe: Right. >> And this is really the dynamic around cloud architecture, is where the operating model's changing. So, you got to be prepared to handle things differently. And in storage, the old days, is, I won't say, easy, but you guys made it easy. A lot of great customers. NetApp has a long history of, but it's not the storage anymore. It's the data fabric as you guys are talking about. It's the developer enablement. It's getting these customers to drive for themselves. It's not about the engine anymore, although, you've got to have a good engine, call it tech, hardware, software together. But the ultimate outcome is the people driving the solutions are app guys. They're just the lines of businesses are under huge pressure and huge need. >> I think you can look at it this way. It's like we're kind of data-driven. You'll see Gene talk about that as part of our messaging. We can no longer be just a storage company. We need to be a data company and a data management organization as we start to have those conversations. Yes, you're going to go in there and talk to the storage administrations and storage teams, but there are 95% of the other people inside of the Enterprise, inside information technology, within different lines of business. They're the ones that we have the most relevant discussions with. That's where our message probably resonates more strongly in the data-driven aspect, or the management, or analytics, and all those other spaces. And I think that's the white space and growth area potential for NetApp, is the fact that we can go in there and have very authoritative discussions with customers around their data needs, and understanding governance. You have things like GPRD, and AMIA. That's a giant open ecosystem for, it has so many requirements and restrictions around it, and everybody's just now starting to wrap their head around it. So building a program around something like that, as well. So there's challenges for everybody. And there's even challenges for vendors like ourselves, because we had, we were mode one. Now we're mode two. So it's kind of like making that transition. And the old speeds, the speeds were always, hey, how fast can you go, what's the files look like, with replication, blah, blah, blah. Now you've got solid, solid state storage. You got SolidFire. Now people want outcomes as a service. Not outcomes anymore, like a cliché, things are happening very dynamically. And last week at Big Data NYC, our event, around the big data world, you couldn't get anymore clear that there's no more room for hype. They want real solutions now. Realtime is critical. And, now watching the keynotes here at NetApp, it's not speed that's featured, although there's a lot of work going on under the hood, it's really about competitive advantage. You're hearing words like data as a competitive advantage. >> Sidney: Yes. >> Sidney, you're in the field, you're in the front lines. Make sense of this. >> The sense that we have to make is, we made up some great points. >> Gabe: Yes. >> Getting the business engaged is one thing, because you still, with the cloud and the cloud architecture, you still have a lot of individuals who are not necessarily sold on it, all the way. So even from a technical perspective. So those guys that are down in the bottom of the boat, so to speak, you still have to kind of convince them because they feel somewhat uncomfortable about it. They have not all the way accepted it. The business is kind of accepted it in pockets. So being, having been on a customer's side and then going to more of a consulting side of things, you understand those pain points. So by getting those businesses engaged and then also engaging those guys to say, listen, it's freeing, the relevance of cloud architecture is not to eliminate a position, it's more to move the mundane tasks that you were more accustomed to using and move you closer to the business so that you can be more effective, and feel more of a participant, and have more value in that business. So that's-- >> So it's creating a value role for the-- >> Right, Right. >> The nondifferentiated tasks >> Absolutely. >> That were being mundane tasks, as you called them. >> Yes. >> You can then put that person now on, whether analytics or ... >> All those IoT things like you were mentioning on those advance projects, and use and leverage the dynamic capability of the cloud being able to go off-prem or on-prem. >> Alright, so what's the guiding principle for a cloud architecture? We'll have to get your thoughts on this because we talked about, in a segment earlier, with Josh, around a good devops person sees automation opportunities and they jump on it like a grenade. There it is, take care of that business and automate it. How do you know what to automate? How do you architect around the notion of we might be continually automating things to shift the people and the process to the value? >> I think what it boils down to is the good cloud architect looks and sees where there are redundancies, things that can be eliminated, things that can be minimized, and sees where complexity is, and focuses to simplify as much of it as possible, right? So my goal has always been to abstract away the complexity, understand that it's there and have the requirements and the teams that can functionally build those things, but then make it look to you as if it were your iPhone, right? I don't know how the app store works. I just download the apps and use it. A good cloud architect does the same thing for their customers. Internally and externally, as well. >> So where does NetApp fit in there, from a product perspective? As a cloud architect, you're always wondering what should I build versus what should I buy? When I look at the open source projects out there, I see a ton of them. Should I go out and dive head deep into one of these projects? Should I look towards a vendor like NetApp to bring to bear that simplified version? Where is the delineation for those? >> So the way we see it is traditionally, there's kind of four consumption models that exists. There's an as-a-service model, or just-in-time model. There are, we see converged, hyper converged as a consumption continuum that people leverage and utilize. There are best-of-breach solutions. Because if I want an object store, I want an object store, and I want it to do exactly what it does. That's an engineering solution. But then there's the as-a-service, I mean, I'm sorry, there's a software-defying component, as well. And those are the, kind of the four areas. If you look at the NetApp product lines, we have an ONTAP set of products, and we have an Element OS set of products, and we have solutions that fit into each one of those consumption continuums, based on what the customer's characteristics are like. You may have a customer that likes configurability. So they would look at a traditional FlexPod with a FAS and say that that's a great idea for me for, in terms of provisioning infrastructure. You may get other customers that are looking at, I want the next-generation data center. I want to provide block storage as a service. So they would look at something like SolidFire. Or, you have the generalist team that looks at simplicity as the key running factor, and time-to-value. And they look at hyper converged infrastructure. So there's a whole set. For me, when I have a conversation with a customer around build versus buy, I want to understand why they would like to build it versus buy it. Because I think that a lot of times, people think, oh, I just download the software and I put it on a box. I'm like, well, right, that's awesome. Now you're in the supply-chain management business. Is that your core competency? Because I don't think it is, right? And so there's a whole bunch of things. It's like firmware management and all these things. We abstract away all of that complexity. That's the reason we charge up for a product, Is the fact that we do all that heavy lifting for the customer. We provide them with an engineered solution. I saw a lot of that when we really focused significantly on the OpenStack space, where we would come up and compete against SEP. And I'm like, well how many engineers do you want to dedicate to keeping SEP up and running? I could give you a turnkey solution for a price premium, but you will never have to dedicate any engineers to it. So that's the trade-off. >> So on that point, I just want to followup. A followup to that is you vision OpenStack, which, big fans of, as you know, we love OpenStack. In the beginning, the challenge with the dupe in OpenStack early on, although that kind of solved, the industry's evolved, is that the early stage was the cost of ownership problem. Which means you had the early tire kickers. Early pioneers doing to work. And they iterated through it. So the question around modernization, which came up as a theme here, what are some modernization practices that I could take as a potential customer, or customer of NetApp, whether I'm an existing customer or a future customer, I want to modernize but I don't want to, I want to manage cost of ownership. And I want to have an architect that's going to allow me to manage my data for that competitive advantage. So I want the headroom of know that it's not just about putting a data link out there, I got to make data realtime, and I don't know when and where it's going to be available. So I need kind of like a fabric or a layer, but I got to have a modern infrastructure. What do I do, what's the playbook? >> So that's where that data fabric, again, comes in. It's like one of the keynotes we heard earlier in the General Session yesterday. We have customers now who are interested in buying infrastructure like we buy electricity. Or like we buy Internet service at home. So by us having this fabric, and it being associated with a brand like NetApp, we're, it's opening up to the point where, what do you really want to do? That's the question we come to you and ask. And if you're into the modernization, we can provide you all the modernization tools right within this fabric, and seamlessly transition from one provider to the next, or plug into another platform or the next, or even put it on-prem. Whatever you want to do. But this will allow the effective management of the entire platform in one location, where you don't have to worry about a big team. You can take your existing team, and that's where that internal support will come in and allow people to kind of concentrate and say, oh, this is some really interesting stuff. Coming from the engineering side of things, being on that customer side, and when you go into customers, you can connect with those guys and help them to leverage this knowledge that they already have because they're familiar with the products. They know the brand. So that makes it more palatable for them to accept. >> So from the cloud architect's perspective, as you look at it, you look at the data-driven fabric or data fabric, and you're like, wow, this is a great idea. Practically, where's the starting point? Is this a set of products? Is it an architecture? Where do I start to bite into this apple? >> So ultimately, I think, you look at it, and I approach it the same way, I would say, like, I can't just go and buy devops. >> Right. >> Right, but data fabric is still, it's a concept, but it's enabled by a suite of technology products. And we look at NetApp across our portfolio and see all the different products that we have. They all have a data fabric element to them, right? Whether it's a FAS, and Snapmirror and snapping to, and ONTAP cloud, it's running in AWS. Whether it's how we're going to integrate with Azure, now with our NFS service that we're providing in there, whether it's hyper converged infrastructure and the ability to move data off there. Our friend Dave McCrory talked about data having gravity, right, he coined that term. And it does, it does have gravity, and you need to be able to understand where it sits. We have analytics in place that help us craft that. We have a product called OCI that customers use. And what it does, it gives them actionable intelligence about where their data sits, where things may be inefficient. We have to start making that transition to, not just providing storage, but understanding what's in the storage, the value that it has, and using it more like currency. We heard George talk about data as currency, it really is kind of the currency, and information is power, right? >> Yeah, Gabe, I mean Gabe, this is right on the money. I mean cryptocurrency and blockchain is a tell sign of what's coming around the corner. A decentralized and distributed environment that's coming. That wave is way out there, but it's coming fast. So you, I want you to take a minute to talk about the cloud component. >> Sidney: Sure. >> Because you mentioned cloud. Talk about your relationship to the clouds, because multi cloud is coming, too. It's not yet there yet, but just because you have a cloud, something in every cloud means multi cloud in the sense of moving stuff around. And then talk about the customer perspective. Because if I'm a customer, I'm saying to myself, okay, I have NetApp, I got files everywhere, I've got ONTAP, they understand the management game, they know how to manage data on-prem, but now I got this cloud thing going on, and I got this shiny new toy start-up over there that's promised me the moon. But I got to make a decision. You're laughing, I know you're thinking about it. This is the dilemma. Do I stay with what I know? >> Right. >> And what I know, is that relevant for where I'm going? A lot of times start-ups will have that pitch. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right >> So address the cloud and then talk about the impact of the customer around the choice. >> Ultimately, it boils down to me in many respects. When I have a conversation with a customer, if I'm going to go for the bright and shiny, right, there has to be a very compelling business interest to do so. If I've built a set of tools and processes around data governance, management, implementation, movement, et cetera, around a bunch of on-premises technologies and I want that same effect or that same look and feel in the public cloud, then that's how we transition there. I want to make it look like I'm using it here locally but it's not on my site, it's somewhere else. It's being managed by somebody else, from a physical standpoint. I'm just consuming that information. But I also know I have to go back and retool everything I've spent in the last 15 and 20 years building because something new and neat comes along. If that new and neat thing comes along, it abstracts away, or it makes a significant cost reduction or something like that, then obviously, you're going to validate that or look at and vet that technology out. But reality is, is that we kind of have these-- >> Well, they don't want to recode, they don't want to retool, they'll rewrite code, but if you look at the clouds, AWS, Azure, and Google, top three in my mind, >> Sidney: Right. >> They all implement everything differently. They got S3 over there, they got it over here, so like, I got it resting on-prem but then I got to hire a devops team that's trained for Azure, Sidney, this is the reality. I mean, evolution might take care of this, but right now, customers have to know that. >> We're at a point right now where customers, businesses we go to, realtime is very important. Software as a service is the thing now. So if you have a customer who is just clicking on a button, and if they can't see that website or whatever your business is, that's a problem. You're going to lose money. You're going to lose customers, you're going to lose revenue. So what you have to do is, as a business, discover what you have internally. And once you discover that and really understand it as a business, not just the tech team, but the business actually understands that. Move that forward and then blend some cloud technology in that with a data fabric, because you're leveraging what you already have. Most of the time, they usually have some sort of NetApp appliance of some sort. And then some of the new appliances that we do have, you can either say, have a small spin, put it next to an old appliance, or use some of the OCI, or something of that nature, to help you migrate to a more dynamic, and the thing about it is, is to just make it more a fluid transition. That's what you're looking to do. Uptime is everything. >> Yeah. >> Totally. >> This fabric will allow you to have that uptime so that you can propel your business and sustain your business. Because you want to be able to still use what you have, and still get that ROI out of that technology, but at the same token, you want to be more dynamic than the competition, so that you can increase that business and still grow the business, but now lose any business. >> Sidney, you bring up a good point. In fact, we should do a followup segment on this, because, what I'm hearing you say, and I've heard this many times in theCUBE, but it's happening, and certainly, we're doing our part on theCUBE to help, but the tech guys, whether they're ops or devs, they're becoming more business savvy. They've got to get closer to the business. >> Sidney: You have to. >> But they don't want to get an MBA, per se, but they have to become street MBA. >> Sidney: Right. >> They got to get that business degree through scar tissue. >> Yes. You can't just be the tech anymore, you have to understand why your business is making this effort, why it's investing this technology, why they would look to go to the public cloud, if you can't deliver a service, and try to emulate that. We've seen that time and time again, the concept of shadow IT, and a shift away from resources. And if you want to be relevant longterm, and not just the guy that sits in the closet, and then plugs in the wires, start learning about your business. Learn about how the business is run and how it generates revenue and see what you can do to affect that. >> Yeah, and the jobs aren't going away. This nonsense about automation killing jobs. >> No, it's not. >> And they use the mainframe as an example, not really relevant, but kind of, but there are other jobs. I mean, look at cyber security, huge data aspect, impact story. >> Sure, it's huge. >> That paradigm is changing realtime. So good stuff, a lot of good business conferences we should do a followup on. I'll give you guys a final word in this segment. If you could each weigh in on what cloud architects should be doing right now. I mean, besides watching theCUBE, and watching you guys here. They got to have the 20-mile stare. They got to understand the systems that are in place. It's almost like an operating system model. They got to see the big picture. Architecting on paper seems easy, but right now it's hard. What's your advice for cloud architects? >> I mean, I say continue to follow the trends. Continue to expose yourself to new technologies. I mean, I'm really interested in things like serverless and those type technologies, and how we integrate our platforms into those types of solutions. Because, that's kind of the next wave of things that are coming along, as we become more of an API-driven ecosystem, right? So if it's infrastructure, if it's code, if it's everything is just in time instance of spin up, how do I have the communications between those technologies? You've just got to stay well ahead of the curve and, you know ... >> John: Sidney, your thoughts? >> My thoughts are along those lines. Not only from a technical perspective but also like you were talking about, that business perspective. Understand your business needs. Because even though, and be able to provide a portfolio, or a suite of tools that will help that business take that next step. And that's where that value. So it's kind of like a blend. You're more of a hybrid. Where you're coming in, not only as a technical person, but you're coming in to assist the business and develop it and help it take it's next step. >> John: And IT is not a department, anymore, it's everywhere. >> No it's not, not. >> It's integrated. >> It is the business. >> Yes. >> Guys, great conversation here on the future of the cloud architect, here inside theCUBE at NetApp Insight 2017 here at the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas, theCUBE's coverage. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (techno music) (fast and furious music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to this Cube Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube. We have a returning Cube alumni, Ramesh Prabagan, who is the co-founder and CEO of Prosimo.io. Great to see you, Ramesh. Thanks for coming in to our studio, and welcome to the new layout. >> Thanks for having me here, John. After a series of Zoom conversations, it's great to be live and in the flesh! >> Great to be in person. We also got a new stage for our Supercloud event, which we've been opening up to the community, looking forward to getting your perspective on that soon as well. But I want to keep the conversation really about you guys. I want to get the story down. You guys came out of stealth, Multicloud, Supercloud is right in your wheelhouse. >> Exactly. >> You got to love Supercloud. >> Yeah. As I walked in, I saw Supercloud all over the place, and it just gives you a jolt of energy. >> Well, you guys are in the middle of the action. Your company, I want you to explain this in a minute, is in the middle of this next wave. Because we had the structural change I called Cloud One. Amazon, use case, developers, no need to build a data center, all that goodness happens, higher level service of abstractions are happening, and then Azure comes in. More PaaS, and then more install base, now they're nipping at the heels. So full on hyperscale, Cap Backs growth, great for everybody. Now comes new use cases. Cloud to cloud, app to app, you see Databricks, Snowflake, MongoDB, all doing extremely well by leveraging the Cap Backs, now it's an ops problem. >> Exactly. >> Now ops and security. >> Yeah. It's speed of applications. >> How are you guys vectoring into that? Explain what you guys do. >> Absolutely. So let me take kind of the customer pain point first, right? Because it's always easier to explain that, and then we explain what is it that we do. So, it's no surprise. Applications are moving into the cloud, or people are building apps in the cloud in masses. The infrastructure that's sitting in front of these applications, cutting across networking, security, the operational piece associated with that, does not move at the same speed. The apps sometimes get upgraded two, three times a day, the infrastructure gets touched one time a week at best. And so increasingly, the cloud platform teams, the developers are all like, "Hey, why? Why? Why?" Right? "I thought things were supposed to move fast in the cloud." It doesn't. Now, if you double click on that, really, it's two reasons. One, those that won't have consistency across the stack that they hired in the data center, they bring a virtual form factor of that stack and line it up in the cloud, and before you know it, it's cost, it's operation complexity, there are multiple single panes of glass, all the fun stuff associated... >> Just to interject real quick. It is fast in the cloud if you're a developer. >> Exactly. >> So it's kind of like, hurry up, slow down, wait. >> Correct. >> So the developers are shifting left, open source is booming. Things are fine for developers right now. If you're a developer, things are good. >> But the guy sitting in front of that... >> The ops guys, they've got to deal with things like lock-in, choice, security. >> Exactly. And those are really the key challenges. We've seen some that actually said, "Hey, know what, I don't want to bring my data center stack into the cloud. Let me go cloud-native. And they start to build it up. 14 services from AWS, 15 from iGR, 14 more from GCP, even if you are in a single cloud. They just keep it to that. I need to know how to put this together. Because all these services are great, but how do I put this together. And enterprises don't have just one application, they have hundreds of these applications. So the requirements of a database is different than a service mesh, different than a serverless application, different than a web application. And before you know it, "How do I put all these things together?" And so we looked at this problem, and we said, "Okay. We subscribe to the fact that cloud-native is the way to go, right, but something needs to be there to make this simple." Right? And so, first thing that we did was bring all these cloud-native services together, we help orchestrate that, and we said, "okay, know what, Mr. Enterprise? We got you covered." Right? But now, it doesn't stop there. That's like, 10% of the value, right? What do you really need? What do you care about now? Because the apps are in the center of the universe, and who's talking to it? It's another application sitting either in the same cloud, or in a different cloud, or it's a user connecting into the application. So now, let's talk about what are the networking security operational requirements required for these apps to talk to each other, or the user to talk to the application. That's really what we focus on. >> Yeah. And I think one of the things that's driving this opportunity for you, and I want to get your reaction to this, is that the modern application movement is all about cloud-native. Okay, they're obviously doing great. Now, kind of the kumbaya moment in enterprise is that the security team and ops teams have to play ball and be friends with the developer, and vice versa. So harmony's coming there. So the little harmony. And two, the business is driving apps. IT is transforming over. This is why the Supercloud idea is interesting to Dave and I. Because when we coined that term, multi-cloud was not a market. Everyone has multiple clouds, 'cause they have Microsoft Office, that's now in the cloud, they got SQL Server, I mean it's really kind of Microsoft Cloud. >> Exactly. >> So you have a cloud. But do you have ops teams building on the stack? What about the network layer? This is where the rubber meets the road. >> Absolutely, yeah. And if you look at the challenges there, if you just focus on networking and security, right? When applications need to talk to each other, you have a whole bunch of underlying services, but somebody needs to put this thing on top. Because what you care about is "can these group of users talk to these class of applications." Or, "these group of applications, can they talk to each other," right? This whole notion of connectivity is just table stakes. Everybody just assumes it's there, right? It's the next layer up, which is, "how do I bring Zero Trust access? How do I get the observability?" And observability is not just a bunch of pretty donut chats. I have had people look to me in my previous company, the start-up, and said, "okay, give me all these nice donut chats, but so what? What do you want me to do with this?" And so you have to translate that into real actions, right? "How do I bring Zero Trust capabilities? How do I bring the observability capabilities? How do I understand cloud-native and networking and bring those things together so that you can help solve for the problem." >> It's interesting, one of the questions I had here to ask you was "what does it mean to be cloud-native, and why now?" And you brought up Zero Trust, trust and verify, these are security concepts. But if you look at what's going on at KubeKon and CNCF and Linux Foundation, software supply chain's a huge issue, where trust is the issue. They want trust there, so you got Zero Trust here. What is it? Zero Trust or trust? I mean, what's there? Is one hardware based, perimeter, networking? That kind of perimeter's dead, ton of... >> No, the whole- >> Trust or Zero Trust. >> The whole concept of Zero Trust is don't trust what is underlying, just trust what you're talking to. So if you and I talking to each other, John, you need to trust me, I need to trust you, and be able to have this conversation. >> You've been verified. >> Exactly, right? But in the application world, if you talk about two apps that are talking to each other, let's say there is a web application in one AWS region talking to a database in a different region, right? Now, do you want to make sure you are able to build that trust all the way from the application to the application? Or do you want to move the trust boundary to the two entities that are talking to each other so that irrespective of what they go on underneath the covers, you can be always sure that these two things are trusted. >> So, Ramesh, I was on LinkedIn yesterday, I wrote a comment, Dave Vallante wrote a post on Supercloud, we're talking about it, and I wrote, "Cloud as a commodity," question, and then a bunch of other stuff that we're going to talk about, and Keith Townsend jumped on that, and got on Twitter, put a poll, "Is cloud a commodity? Source: me." So, it started a big thread. And the reaction was interesting. And my point was to be provocative on "Cloud isn't commodity, but there's commodity elements." EC2 and S3, you can look at that and say, "that's commodity IaaS," but Amazon Web Services has done an amazing job for higher level services. Okay, so how does that translate into the use cases that you see that you guys are going after and solving, because it's the same kind of concept. IaaS and SaaS have to work together to solve problems, but that's in an integrated environment, say, in a native-cloud. How does that work across clouds? >> Yeah, no, you bring up a great point, John. So, let's take the simple use case, right? Let's keep the user to app thing to the side. Let us say two apps need to talk to each other, right? There are multiple ways in which you can solve this problem. You can build highways. That's what our customers call it. I'll build highways. I don't care what goes on those highways, I'll just build highways. You bring any kind of application workload on it, I just make sure that the highways are good, right? That's kind of the lowest common denominator. It's the path to least resistance. You can get stuff done, but it's not going to move the needle, right? Then you have really modern, kind of service networking, where, okay, I'm looking at every single HTTP, API, n:point, whatnot, and I'm optimizing for that. Right? Great if you know what you're doing, but, like, if you have thousands of these applications, it's not going to be really feasible to do that. And so, what we have seen customers do, actually, is employ a mixed approach, where they say, "I'm going to build these highways, the highways are going to make sure that I can go from one place to another, and maybe within regions, across clouds, whatnot, but then, I have specific requirements that my business needs, that actually needs tweaking, right? And so I'm going to tweak those things. That's why, what we call as like, full stack transit, is exactly that, right, which is, I'll build you the guts of it so that hey, you know what, if somebody screams at you, "Hey, why is my application not accessible?" You don't have that problem. It is always accessible. But then, the requirements for performance, the requirements for Zero Trust, the requirements for segmentation, and all of that are things that... >> That's a hard problem. >> That's a hard problem to solve. >> And you guys are solving that? >> Absolutely, exactly. >> So, let me throw this at you. So, okay, I get that. And by the way, that's exactly what we're seeing. Dave and I were also debating about multi-cloud as what it is. Now, the nirvana definition is, "Well, I have a workload, that's going to work the same, and just magically just shift to Azure." (Ramesh laughs) >> Like, 'cause there's better resources. >> There is no magic there. >> So, but this brings up the point of operations. Now, Databricks and Snowflake, they're building their software to run on multi-cloud seamlessly. Now they can do that, 'cause it's their application. What is the multi-cloud use case, so that's a Supercloud use case in your mind, because right now it's not yet there. What is the Supercloud use case that's going to allow this seamless management or workloads. What's your view? >> Yeah, so if you take enterprise, right? Large enterprise in particular. They invariably have some workloads that are on, let's say, if the primary cloud is AWS, there are some workloads in Azure. Maybe they have acquired a new company, maybe a start-up that uses GCP, whatnot. So they have sprinkles of workloads in other clouds. >> So that's the breed kind of thing. >> Yeah, exactly. That's not what causes anybody to wake up in the morning and say, "I need to have a Supercloud strategy." That's not the thing, right? But now, increasingly you're seeing "pick the right cloud for the appropriate workload." That is going to change quite a bit. Because I have my infrastructure heavy workloads in AWS. I have quite a bit of like, analytics and mining type of applications that are better on GCP. I have all of my package applications work well on Azure, right? How do I make sure all of this. And it's not apps of this kind. Even simple things like VDI. VDI always used to be, "I have this instance I run up" and whatnot. Now every single cloud provider is giving you their own flavor of virtual desktop. And so, how do you make sure all of these things work together, right? And once again, what we have seen customers do is they settle on one cloud as their primary, but then you always have sprinkles of workloads across all of the clouds. Now, you could also go down the path, and you're increasingly seeing this, you could go down the path of, "Hey, I'm using cloud as backbone," right? Cloud providers have invested massive amounts of dollars to make sure that the infrastructure reaches there. Literally almost to the extent that every user in a metro city is ten milliseconds from the public cloud. And so they have allowed for that. Now, you can actually use cloud backbones to get the availability, the liability and whatnot. So these are some new use cases that we have seen actually blew up in customers. I was just doing an interview, and the topic was the innovator's dilemma. And one of the panelists said, "It's not the innovator's dilemma, it's the integrator dilemma." Because if you have commodity, and you have choices on, say, backbones and whatnot for transit, the integration is the key glue now. What's your reaction to that? >> Absolutely. And we have seen, we used to spend quite a bit of time in kind of what is the day zero problem, right? Like, how do I put this together? Conversations are moved past that, because there are multiple ways in which you can do that right now, right? Conversations are moving to kind of, "this is more of an operational problem for me." It's not just operations in the form of "Hey, I need to find out where the problem is, troubleshoot it, and so forth. But I need to make like really high quality decisions." And those decisions are going to be guided by data. We have enterprise customers that acquire new companies. Or they have a new site that they open up. >> It's a mishmash. >> Yeah, exactly. It's a New York based company and they acquire a team out in Sidney, Australia, right? Does your cloud tell you today that you have new users, or new applications that are in Sidney, and naturally just extend? No, it doesn't. Somebody has to look at the macro problem, look at "Where are all my workloads?" Do a bunch of engineering to make that work, right? We took it upon ourselves to say "Hey, you know what, twenty-four hours later, you're going to get a recommendation in the platform that says, 'okay, you have new set of applications, a new set of users coming from Sidney, Australia, what have you done about it?' Click a button, and then you expand on it. >> It's kind of like how IT became the easy way to run the data center. Before IT you had to be a PhD, and roll out, I mean, you know how it was, right? So you're kind of taking that same approach. Okay, well, Ramesh, great stuff. I want to do a followup, certainly with you on this. 'Cause you're in the middle of where this wave is going, this structural change, and certainly can participate in that Supercloud conversation. But for your company, what's going on there? Give us an update, customer activity, what's it like, you guys came out of stealth, what's been the reaction, give a plug for the company, who you going to hire, take a minute to plug it. >> Oh, wonderful, thank you. So, primary use cases are really around cloud networking. How do you go within the cloud, and across clouds, and to the cloud, right? So those are really the key use cases. We go after large enterprises predominantly, but any kind of mid enterprise that is extremely cloud oriented, has lot of workloads in the cloud, equally applicable, applicable there. So we have about 60 of the Fortune 500s that we are engaged in right now. Many of them are paying customers as well. >> How are they buying, service? Is it... >> Yeah. So we provide software that actually sits inside the customer's own administrative control, delivered as a service, that they can use to go- >> So on-premise hosting or in the cloud? >> Entirely in the cloud, delivered as a service, so they didn't need to take care of the maintenance and whatnot, but they just consume it from the cloud directly, okay? And so, where we are right now is essentially, I have a branch of repeatable use cases that many customers are employing us for. So again, building highways, many different ways to build highways, at the same time take care of the micro-segmentation requirements, and then importantly, this whole NetDevOps, right? This whole NetDevOps is a cultural shift that we have seen. So if you are a network engineer, NetDevOps seems like it's a foreign term, right? But if you are an operational engineer, then NetDevOps, you know exactly what to do. So bringing all those principles together, making sure that the networking teams are empowered to essentially embrace the cloud that I created, the single biggest thing that we have done, I would say done well, is we have built very well on top of the cloud provider. So we don't go against cloud-native services. They have done that really, really well. It makes no sense to go say, "I have a better transit gateway than you." No. Hands down, an AWS transit gateway, or an Azure V1 and whatnot, are some of the best services that they have provided. But what does that mean? >> How do you build software into it? >> Exactly, right? And so how can you build a layer of software on top, so that when you attach that into the applications, right, that you can actually get the experience required, you can get the security requirements and so forth. So that's kind of where we are. We're also humbled by essentially some of the mega partners that have taken a bet on us, sometimes to the extent that, we're a 70% company, and some of the partners that we are talking to actually are quite humbling, right? >> Hey, lot more resource. >> Exactly, yeah. >> And how many rounds of financing have you done? >> So we have done two rounds of financing, we have raised about 55,000,000 in capital, again, really great set of investors backing us up, and a strong sense of conviction, on kind of where we are going. >> Do you think you're early, or not? 'Cause, that's always probably the biggest scary, I can see the smile, is that what keeps you up at night? >> So, yeah, exactly, I go through these phases internally in my head. >> The vision's right on the money, no doubt about it. >> So when you win an opportunity, and we have like, a few dozen of these, right, when you win an opportunity, you're like, "Yes, absolutely, this is where it is," right, and you go for a week and you don't win something, and you're like, "Hey man, why are we not seeing this?" Right, and so you go through these cycles, but I'll tell you with conviction, the fact that customers are moving workloads into the public cloud, not in dozens but in like, the hundreds and the thousands, essentially means that they need something like this. >> And the cloud-native wave is driving big time. >> Exactly, right. And so, when the customer as a conversation with AWS, Azure, GCP, and they are privy to all the services, and we go in after that and talk about, "How do I put this together and help you focus on your outcomes?" That mentally moves them. >> It's a day zero opportunity, and then you got headroom beyond that. >> Exactly. So that's the positive side of it, and enterprises certainly are sometimes a little cautious about when they're up new technologies and so forth. It's a natural cycle. Fortunately, again we are humbled by the fact that we have a few dozen of the pioneering customers that are using our platform. That gives you the legitimacy for a start-up. >> You got great pedigree on clients. Real quick, final question. 30 seconds. What's the pain point, for people watching, when do they call you in? What's their environment look like, what are some of the things that give the signals that you guys got to get the call? >> If you have more than, let's say five or ten VPCs in the cloud, and you have not invested in building a networking platform that gives you the connectivity, the security, the observability, and the performance requirements, you absolutely have to do that, right? Because we have seen many, many customers, it goes from 5 to 50 to 100 within a week, and so you don't want to be caught essentially in the midst of that. >> One more final final question. Since you're a seasoned entrepreneur, you've been there, done that previous times, >> Yeah, I've got scars. (laughs) >> Yes, we've all got scar tissue. We've been doing theCube for 12 years, we've seen a lot of stuff. What's the difference now in this market that's different than before? What's exciting you? What's the big change? What's, in your opinion, happening now that's really important that people should pay attention to? >> Absolutely. A lot of it is driven by one, the focus on the cloud itself, right? That's driving a sense of speed like never before. Because in the infrastructure world, yeah you do it today, oh, you do it six months from now, you had some leeway. Here, networking security teams are being yelled at almost every single day, by the cloud guy saying, "You guys are not moving fast enough, fast enough, fast enough." So that thing is different. So it helps, going to shrink the sale cycle for us. So second big one is, nobody knows, essentially, the new set of use cases that are coming about. We are seeing patterns emerge in terms of new use cases almost every single day. Some days it's like completely on the other end of the spectrum. Like, "I'm only serverless and service mesh." On the other end, it's like, "I have a package application, I'm moving it to the cloud." Right? And so, we're learning a lot as well. >> A great time for Supercloud. >> Exactly. >> Do the cloud really well, make it super, bring it to other use cases, stitch it all together, make it easy to use, reduce the complexity, it's just evolution. >> Yeah. And our goal is essentially, enterprise customers should not be focused so much on building infrastructure this way, right? They should focus on users, application services, let vendors like us worry about the nitty-gritty underneath. >> Ramesh, thank you for this conversation. It's a great Cube conversation. In the middle of all the action, Supercloud, multi-cloud, the future is going to be very much cloud-based, IaaS, SaaS, connecting environments. This is the cloud 2.0, Superclouds. And this is what people are going to be working on. I'm John Furrier with theCube, thanks for watching. (soft music)