(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to this Cube Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube. We have a returning Cube alumni, Ramesh Prabagan, who is the co-founder and CEO of Prosimo.io. Great to see you, Ramesh. Thanks for coming in to our studio, and welcome to the new layout. >> Thanks for having me here, John. After a series of Zoom conversations, it's great to be live and in the flesh! >> Great to be in person. We also got a new stage for our Supercloud event, which we've been opening up to the community, looking forward to getting your perspective on that soon as well. But I want to keep the conversation really about you guys. I want to get the story down. You guys came out of stealth, Multicloud, Supercloud is right in your wheelhouse. >> Exactly. >> You got to love Supercloud. >> Yeah. As I walked in, I saw Supercloud all over the place, and it just gives you a jolt of energy. >> Well, you guys are in the middle of the action. Your company, I want you to explain this in a minute, is in the middle of this next wave. Because we had the structural change I called Cloud One. Amazon, use case, developers, no need to build a data center, all that goodness happens, higher level service of abstractions are happening, and then Azure comes in. More PaaS, and then more install base, now they're nipping at the heels. So full on hyperscale, Cap Backs growth, great for everybody. Now comes new use cases. Cloud to cloud, app to app, you see Databricks, Snowflake, MongoDB, all doing extremely well by leveraging the Cap Backs, now it's an ops problem. >> Exactly. >> Now ops and security. >> Yeah. It's speed of applications. >> How are you guys vectoring into that? Explain what you guys do. >> Absolutely. So let me take kind of the customer pain point first, right? Because it's always easier to explain that, and then we explain what is it that we do. So, it's no surprise. Applications are moving into the cloud, or people are building apps in the cloud in masses. The infrastructure that's sitting in front of these applications, cutting across networking, security, the operational piece associated with that, does not move at the same speed. The apps sometimes get upgraded two, three times a day, the infrastructure gets touched one time a week at best. And so increasingly, the cloud platform teams, the developers are all like, "Hey, why? Why? Why?" Right? "I thought things were supposed to move fast in the cloud." It doesn't. Now, if you double click on that, really, it's two reasons. One, those that won't have consistency across the stack that they hired in the data center, they bring a virtual form factor of that stack and line it up in the cloud, and before you know it, it's cost, it's operation complexity, there are multiple single panes of glass, all the fun stuff associated... >> Just to interject real quick. It is fast in the cloud if you're a developer. >> Exactly. >> So it's kind of like, hurry up, slow down, wait. >> Correct. >> So the developers are shifting left, open source is booming. Things are fine for developers right now. If you're a developer, things are good. >> But the guy sitting in front of that... >> The ops guys, they've got to deal with things like lock-in, choice, security. >> Exactly. And those are really the key challenges. We've seen some that actually said, "Hey, know what, I don't want to bring my data center stack into the cloud. Let me go cloud-native. And they start to build it up. 14 services from AWS, 15 from iGR, 14 more from GCP, even if you are in a single cloud. They just keep it to that. I need to know how to put this together. Because all these services are great, but how do I put this together. And enterprises don't have just one application, they have hundreds of these applications. So the requirements of a database is different than a service mesh, different than a serverless application, different than a web application. And before you know it, "How do I put all these things together?" And so we looked at this problem, and we said, "Okay. We subscribe to the fact that cloud-native is the way to go, right, but something needs to be there to make this simple." Right? And so, first thing that we did was bring all these cloud-native services together, we help orchestrate that, and we said, "okay, know what, Mr. Enterprise? We got you covered." Right? But now, it doesn't stop there. That's like, 10% of the value, right? What do you really need? What do you care about now? Because the apps are in the center of the universe, and who's talking to it? It's another application sitting either in the same cloud, or in a different cloud, or it's a user connecting into the application. So now, let's talk about what are the networking security operational requirements required for these apps to talk to each other, or the user to talk to the application. That's really what we focus on. >> Yeah. And I think one of the things that's driving this opportunity for you, and I want to get your reaction to this, is that the modern application movement is all about cloud-native. Okay, they're obviously doing great. Now, kind of the kumbaya moment in enterprise is that the security team and ops teams have to play ball and be friends with the developer, and vice versa. So harmony's coming there. So the little harmony. And two, the business is driving apps. IT is transforming over. This is why the Supercloud idea is interesting to Dave and I. Because when we coined that term, multi-cloud was not a market. Everyone has multiple clouds, 'cause they have Microsoft Office, that's now in the cloud, they got SQL Server, I mean it's really kind of Microsoft Cloud. >> Exactly. >> So you have a cloud. But do you have ops teams building on the stack? What about the network layer? This is where the rubber meets the road. >> Absolutely, yeah. And if you look at the challenges there, if you just focus on networking and security, right? When applications need to talk to each other, you have a whole bunch of underlying services, but somebody needs to put this thing on top. Because what you care about is "can these group of users talk to these class of applications." Or, "these group of applications, can they talk to each other," right? This whole notion of connectivity is just table stakes. Everybody just assumes it's there, right? It's the next layer up, which is, "how do I bring Zero Trust access? How do I get the observability?" And observability is not just a bunch of pretty donut chats. I have had people look to me in my previous company, the start-up, and said, "okay, give me all these nice donut chats, but so what? What do you want me to do with this?" And so you have to translate that into real actions, right? "How do I bring Zero Trust capabilities? How do I bring the observability capabilities? How do I understand cloud-native and networking and bring those things together so that you can help solve for the problem." >> It's interesting, one of the questions I had here to ask you was "what does it mean to be cloud-native, and why now?" And you brought up Zero Trust, trust and verify, these are security concepts. But if you look at what's going on at KubeKon and CNCF and Linux Foundation, software supply chain's a huge issue, where trust is the issue. They want trust there, so you got Zero Trust here. What is it? Zero Trust or trust? I mean, what's there? Is one hardware based, perimeter, networking? That kind of perimeter's dead, ton of... >> No, the whole- >> Trust or Zero Trust. >> The whole concept of Zero Trust is don't trust what is underlying, just trust what you're talking to. So if you and I talking to each other, John, you need to trust me, I need to trust you, and be able to have this conversation. >> You've been verified. >> Exactly, right? But in the application world, if you talk about two apps that are talking to each other, let's say there is a web application in one AWS region talking to a database in a different region, right? Now, do you want to make sure you are able to build that trust all the way from the application to the application? Or do you want to move the trust boundary to the two entities that are talking to each other so that irrespective of what they go on underneath the covers, you can be always sure that these two things are trusted. >> So, Ramesh, I was on LinkedIn yesterday, I wrote a comment, Dave Vallante wrote a post on Supercloud, we're talking about it, and I wrote, "Cloud as a commodity," question, and then a bunch of other stuff that we're going to talk about, and Keith Townsend jumped on that, and got on Twitter, put a poll, "Is cloud a commodity? Source: me." So, it started a big thread. And the reaction was interesting. And my point was to be provocative on "Cloud isn't commodity, but there's commodity elements." EC2 and S3, you can look at that and say, "that's commodity IaaS," but Amazon Web Services has done an amazing job for higher level services. Okay, so how does that translate into the use cases that you see that you guys are going after and solving, because it's the same kind of concept. IaaS and SaaS have to work together to solve problems, but that's in an integrated environment, say, in a native-cloud. How does that work across clouds? >> Yeah, no, you bring up a great point, John. So, let's take the simple use case, right? Let's keep the user to app thing to the side. Let us say two apps need to talk to each other, right? There are multiple ways in which you can solve this problem. You can build highways. That's what our customers call it. I'll build highways. I don't care what goes on those highways, I'll just build highways. You bring any kind of application workload on it, I just make sure that the highways are good, right? That's kind of the lowest common denominator. It's the path to least resistance. You can get stuff done, but it's not going to move the needle, right? Then you have really modern, kind of service networking, where, okay, I'm looking at every single HTTP, API, n:point, whatnot, and I'm optimizing for that. Right? Great if you know what you're doing, but, like, if you have thousands of these applications, it's not going to be really feasible to do that. And so, what we have seen customers do, actually, is employ a mixed approach, where they say, "I'm going to build these highways, the highways are going to make sure that I can go from one place to another, and maybe within regions, across clouds, whatnot, but then, I have specific requirements that my business needs, that actually needs tweaking, right? And so I'm going to tweak those things. That's why, what we call as like, full stack transit, is exactly that, right, which is, I'll build you the guts of it so that hey, you know what, if somebody screams at you, "Hey, why is my application not accessible?" You don't have that problem. It is always accessible. But then, the requirements for performance, the requirements for Zero Trust, the requirements for segmentation, and all of that are things that... >> That's a hard problem. >> That's a hard problem to solve. >> And you guys are solving that? >> Absolutely, exactly. >> So, let me throw this at you. So, okay, I get that. And by the way, that's exactly what we're seeing. Dave and I were also debating about multi-cloud as what it is. Now, the nirvana definition is, "Well, I have a workload, that's going to work the same, and just magically just shift to Azure." (Ramesh laughs) >> Like, 'cause there's better resources. >> There is no magic there. >> So, but this brings up the point of operations. Now, Databricks and Snowflake, they're building their software to run on multi-cloud seamlessly. Now they can do that, 'cause it's their application. What is the multi-cloud use case, so that's a Supercloud use case in your mind, because right now it's not yet there. What is the Supercloud use case that's going to allow this seamless management or workloads. What's your view? >> Yeah, so if you take enterprise, right? Large enterprise in particular. They invariably have some workloads that are on, let's say, if the primary cloud is AWS, there are some workloads in Azure. Maybe they have acquired a new company, maybe a start-up that uses GCP, whatnot. So they have sprinkles of workloads in other clouds. >> So that's the breed kind of thing. >> Yeah, exactly. That's not what causes anybody to wake up in the morning and say, "I need to have a Supercloud strategy." That's not the thing, right? But now, increasingly you're seeing "pick the right cloud for the appropriate workload." That is going to change quite a bit. Because I have my infrastructure heavy workloads in AWS. I have quite a bit of like, analytics and mining type of applications that are better on GCP. I have all of my package applications work well on Azure, right? How do I make sure all of this. And it's not apps of this kind. Even simple things like VDI. VDI always used to be, "I have this instance I run up" and whatnot. Now every single cloud provider is giving you their own flavor of virtual desktop. And so, how do you make sure all of these things work together, right? And once again, what we have seen customers do is they settle on one cloud as their primary, but then you always have sprinkles of workloads across all of the clouds. Now, you could also go down the path, and you're increasingly seeing this, you could go down the path of, "Hey, I'm using cloud as backbone," right? Cloud providers have invested massive amounts of dollars to make sure that the infrastructure reaches there. Literally almost to the extent that every user in a metro city is ten milliseconds from the public cloud. And so they have allowed for that. Now, you can actually use cloud backbones to get the availability, the liability and whatnot. So these are some new use cases that we have seen actually blew up in customers. I was just doing an interview, and the topic was the innovator's dilemma. And one of the panelists said, "It's not the innovator's dilemma, it's the integrator dilemma." Because if you have commodity, and you have choices on, say, backbones and whatnot for transit, the integration is the key glue now. What's your reaction to that? >> Absolutely. And we have seen, we used to spend quite a bit of time in kind of what is the day zero problem, right? Like, how do I put this together? Conversations are moved past that, because there are multiple ways in which you can do that right now, right? Conversations are moving to kind of, "this is more of an operational problem for me." It's not just operations in the form of "Hey, I need to find out where the problem is, troubleshoot it, and so forth. But I need to make like really high quality decisions." And those decisions are going to be guided by data. We have enterprise customers that acquire new companies. Or they have a new site that they open up. >> It's a mishmash. >> Yeah, exactly. It's a New York based company and they acquire a team out in Sidney, Australia, right? Does your cloud tell you today that you have new users, or new applications that are in Sidney, and naturally just extend? No, it doesn't. Somebody has to look at the macro problem, look at "Where are all my workloads?" Do a bunch of engineering to make that work, right? We took it upon ourselves to say "Hey, you know what, twenty-four hours later, you're going to get a recommendation in the platform that says, 'okay, you have new set of applications, a new set of users coming from Sidney, Australia, what have you done about it?' Click a button, and then you expand on it. >> It's kind of like how IT became the easy way to run the data center. Before IT you had to be a PhD, and roll out, I mean, you know how it was, right? So you're kind of taking that same approach. Okay, well, Ramesh, great stuff. I want to do a followup, certainly with you on this. 'Cause you're in the middle of where this wave is going, this structural change, and certainly can participate in that Supercloud conversation. But for your company, what's going on there? Give us an update, customer activity, what's it like, you guys came out of stealth, what's been the reaction, give a plug for the company, who you going to hire, take a minute to plug it. >> Oh, wonderful, thank you. So, primary use cases are really around cloud networking. How do you go within the cloud, and across clouds, and to the cloud, right? So those are really the key use cases. We go after large enterprises predominantly, but any kind of mid enterprise that is extremely cloud oriented, has lot of workloads in the cloud, equally applicable, applicable there. So we have about 60 of the Fortune 500s that we are engaged in right now. Many of them are paying customers as well. >> How are they buying, service? Is it... >> Yeah. So we provide software that actually sits inside the customer's own administrative control, delivered as a service, that they can use to go- >> So on-premise hosting or in the cloud? >> Entirely in the cloud, delivered as a service, so they didn't need to take care of the maintenance and whatnot, but they just consume it from the cloud directly, okay? And so, where we are right now is essentially, I have a branch of repeatable use cases that many customers are employing us for. So again, building highways, many different ways to build highways, at the same time take care of the micro-segmentation requirements, and then importantly, this whole NetDevOps, right? This whole NetDevOps is a cultural shift that we have seen. So if you are a network engineer, NetDevOps seems like it's a foreign term, right? But if you are an operational engineer, then NetDevOps, you know exactly what to do. So bringing all those principles together, making sure that the networking teams are empowered to essentially embrace the cloud that I created, the single biggest thing that we have done, I would say done well, is we have built very well on top of the cloud provider. So we don't go against cloud-native services. They have done that really, really well. It makes no sense to go say, "I have a better transit gateway than you." No. Hands down, an AWS transit gateway, or an Azure V1 and whatnot, are some of the best services that they have provided. But what does that mean? >> How do you build software into it? >> Exactly, right? And so how can you build a layer of software on top, so that when you attach that into the applications, right, that you can actually get the experience required, you can get the security requirements and so forth. So that's kind of where we are. We're also humbled by essentially some of the mega partners that have taken a bet on us, sometimes to the extent that, we're a 70% company, and some of the partners that we are talking to actually are quite humbling, right? >> Hey, lot more resource. >> Exactly, yeah. >> And how many rounds of financing have you done? >> So we have done two rounds of financing, we have raised about 55,000,000 in capital, again, really great set of investors backing us up, and a strong sense of conviction, on kind of where we are going. >> Do you think you're early, or not? 'Cause, that's always probably the biggest scary, I can see the smile, is that what keeps you up at night? >> So, yeah, exactly, I go through these phases internally in my head. >> The vision's right on the money, no doubt about it. >> So when you win an opportunity, and we have like, a few dozen of these, right, when you win an opportunity, you're like, "Yes, absolutely, this is where it is," right, and you go for a week and you don't win something, and you're like, "Hey man, why are we not seeing this?" Right, and so you go through these cycles, but I'll tell you with conviction, the fact that customers are moving workloads into the public cloud, not in dozens but in like, the hundreds and the thousands, essentially means that they need something like this. >> And the cloud-native wave is driving big time. >> Exactly, right. And so, when the customer as a conversation with AWS, Azure, GCP, and they are privy to all the services, and we go in after that and talk about, "How do I put this together and help you focus on your outcomes?" That mentally moves them. >> It's a day zero opportunity, and then you got headroom beyond that. >> Exactly. So that's the positive side of it, and enterprises certainly are sometimes a little cautious about when they're up new technologies and so forth. It's a natural cycle. Fortunately, again we are humbled by the fact that we have a few dozen of the pioneering customers that are using our platform. That gives you the legitimacy for a start-up. >> You got great pedigree on clients. Real quick, final question. 30 seconds. What's the pain point, for people watching, when do they call you in? What's their environment look like, what are some of the things that give the signals that you guys got to get the call? >> If you have more than, let's say five or ten VPCs in the cloud, and you have not invested in building a networking platform that gives you the connectivity, the security, the observability, and the performance requirements, you absolutely have to do that, right? Because we have seen many, many customers, it goes from 5 to 50 to 100 within a week, and so you don't want to be caught essentially in the midst of that. >> One more final final question. Since you're a seasoned entrepreneur, you've been there, done that previous times, >> Yeah, I've got scars. (laughs) >> Yes, we've all got scar tissue. We've been doing theCube for 12 years, we've seen a lot of stuff. What's the difference now in this market that's different than before? What's exciting you? What's the big change? What's, in your opinion, happening now that's really important that people should pay attention to? >> Absolutely. A lot of it is driven by one, the focus on the cloud itself, right? That's driving a sense of speed like never before. Because in the infrastructure world, yeah you do it today, oh, you do it six months from now, you had some leeway. Here, networking security teams are being yelled at almost every single day, by the cloud guy saying, "You guys are not moving fast enough, fast enough, fast enough." So that thing is different. So it helps, going to shrink the sale cycle for us. So second big one is, nobody knows, essentially, the new set of use cases that are coming about. We are seeing patterns emerge in terms of new use cases almost every single day. Some days it's like completely on the other end of the spectrum. Like, "I'm only serverless and service mesh." On the other end, it's like, "I have a package application, I'm moving it to the cloud." Right? And so, we're learning a lot as well. >> A great time for Supercloud. >> Exactly. >> Do the cloud really well, make it super, bring it to other use cases, stitch it all together, make it easy to use, reduce the complexity, it's just evolution. >> Yeah. And our goal is essentially, enterprise customers should not be focused so much on building infrastructure this way, right? They should focus on users, application services, let vendors like us worry about the nitty-gritty underneath. >> Ramesh, thank you for this conversation. It's a great Cube conversation. In the middle of all the action, Supercloud, multi-cloud, the future is going to be very much cloud-based, IaaS, SaaS, connecting environments. This is the cloud 2.0, Superclouds. And this is what people are going to be working on. I'm John Furrier with theCube, thanks for watching. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a CUBE Conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio and looking forward, we're going to be digging into one of my favorite topics and also the community always loves when we have it. Talking about networking, of course. Happy to welcome you to the program. I have two first time guests. First of all, we have Mike Saur. He is a solutions architect of NetDevOps with CCI. And joining us a long time friend of the program. First time on the program, Omar Saltun, who is a leader, product management for Network Services Orchestrator with Cisco. Omar and Mike, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks, nice to be here. >> Thank you, sir. >> All right. So Mike, if you could just set up for us, CCI, Cisco partner, give us a little bit about the organization, what you specialize in, what you're known for. And tell us a bit about your role there. >> Sure. CCI systems is a trusted partner for typical mid market size service providers. That's primarily the focus and that's a lot of different areas of the business, cable access, CMTS, security, data center and now this next evolution of adding NetDevOps as that next step for trusted advisor. I've been in my role for about a year now at CCI with a strong passion for automation and finding the right fit tools to solve problems for our customers, whether that's a commercial product or a open source tool. So a lot of different problems out there and no one size fits all. So it's my passion to bring those types of solutions to CCIs customers. >> Wonderful. Mike, I'm hearing a lot of the themes that I'm very familiar with. I'm sure our audience is when we talk about Cisco, when we've gone to Cisco live, we've been in the DevNet zone. So having a lot of discussions about that NetDevOps piece, can you talk to us a little bit more, just the partnership with Cisco. I would love to hear how NetDevOps fits in with what you're doing and how that fits with Cisco too. >> Yeah, I've been working with Cisco on and off for the past 18 months to try to think outside the box. As we know, Network Services Orchestrator was primarily targeted at the large providers that have the investment resources, the programming staff, to be able to do that. So over the years, having various discussions with product management, Cisco and CCI have come together to partner to solve two of the big problems in our space for our customers. As far as the math problem of the investment that's needed to bring up Network Service Orchestrator, and then also the programming piece of that. So not a lot of the providers in the mid market space have that expertise. So CCI and Cisco are really pulling that all together with various trusted partners to bring that to life for them in a shorter timeframe, with more sets of controls, to bring them up to speed faster so that they can it with a martial arts type journey of starting small and integrating over different phases of the life cycle of automation. >> Great. Well, Omar, let's pull you into the discussion here. It tends to be in general from a product standpoint, a little bit easier to grow up market. We want to talk a bit about the mid market, so that Network Services Orchestrator, NSO. Help explain how that really can support the mid tier as Mike was saying. >> Sure, so we were a little crazy, we started at the top and starting to work our way down. So we're well established with tier one service providers, large enterprises, we have good markets penetration there. I think for us, it was a lot of growth opportunity down into the mid market, both on commercial and tier two, tier three service providers. I know that the challenge in NSO is awesome, but it's got a steep learning curve. So, these partnerships like the one here is perfect because it allows mid market customers to access the capability. But at the same time, they have someone to hold their hands. They have partners like CCI, that have both the technical expertise, as well as kind of understanding kind of what customer problems are, what operations and problem scaling look like in mid market, not just a tier one where the different markets, different requirements. >> Mike I would love to get your viewpoint as to what's happening inside your customers. So networking in general, obviously there's always new technologies that they need to integrate, but there's also the skill sets. NetDevOps, of course, helping pull people along to work closer with developers, coding more something we have to talk about. So the mid tier customer specifically, what challenges they face with bring us into some of those conversations, if you would. >> Right, so I preach a lot and talk about the vicious cycle of not automating. They don't have time 'cause they're too busy doing the day to day jobs. And I love to get into that vicious cycle and kind of bust that up and help to kind of think differently why they need to operate their networks differently. And they can take a lot of those tools and techniques from the software world and really help leverage them on their networks. There's just a skills gap right now with the mid market type folks. They're overworked, stressed. And with obviously the growth of IOT, more devices means more work. It's just a volume metric problem that certain automation tools can really make a difference in their world. And that's really what my passion is at, reducing human error, helping those businesses provide more uptime for their end customers and just driving a different way to operate networks in more efficiently in accurate way. >> And part of that... >> Please go ahead on that. >> And part of that is just not. You know those are the technical expertise, but there's also the how do you stitch things together? Any automation strategy is going to have more than one tool. And there's the idea of how do we stitch tools together? How do we build processes? How do we help up-skill customers? Those kinds of things. I mean, this is kind of the all the pieces that come together when you kind of mesh the technology and the apart for capabilities together. That's really what drives successful automation projects, and then get some of those problems solving and added value that we're talking about here. >> Yeah. I mean, Omar, when I think about scale and I think about automation, service fighters, you think would be some of the leading edge for some of that? Maybe just refresh our audience a bit as to how you help them along and how much, they used to kind of build a lot of their own toolings and that's challenging if you have to keep doing it itself. So why do they turn to Cisco for some of these solutions? >> I think two things, one, we build tools that survive scale, right? For NSO, we have customers managing hundreds of thousands of nodes at one time. So there's a scale on performance that comes from building SB class tooling. But the second piece is just understanding, you know, the operational environment service providers, have they have demanding requirements in terms of SLA scale, reg compliance, those kinds of things. And that's really what we've brought to the table is not just tools that have the power and the scale, but kind of understanding what the operational environment is for the typical tier one SP and making sure the tools mentioned to that. >> Michael... Please go ahead. >> Yeah, absolutely. And the idea of that businesses are changing fastly and keeping up with that speed of innovation is very difficult. And not to mention to, I mean, as a trusted partner for our customers, maybe the answer's not Cisco every time to be honest, maybe there's a different tool. So if we have a tool like NSO that could drive other vendors equipment, I think that makes customers feel safer, better, not vendor lock in. So the power that NSO brings is second to none, in my opinion. So I'm just all about flexibility and in solving problems for our customers. And to me, Network Services Orchestrator is that product. But like I said, there's a lot of integrations that need to be done and we need to break it down for these customers and get them to realize the value of it faster instead of the large deployments that you've seen in the tier one type of space. >> Yeah, Mike, you bring up a really good point. When I think traditionally about automation, we take a process or maybe we optimize a process and we automate it, but what companies need today is I need to react fast and I need to be able to make changes in the future if that's needed. So not fossilizing something, but being able to move forward. So it sounds like with NSO, some of your other things that you put together, you're helping customers not only do what they need today, but be ready for the future. Do I have that right? >> Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, it's just another progression of what CCI already is. That trusted advisor, we have the great opportunity that we talk to so many different providers of the same size, same business goals that we bring best in breed. And our talent that we have at CCI is just amazing and that's a passion that we're trying to get out there into the world that, Hey, we have horsepower and we're ready to help. We're about making lives better. So it's exciting. >> Yeah certainly in the mid market, one of the things we see is customers doing less building and more assembly. So in tier one, they have the time and resources to build stuff from scratch, to write services from scratch, those kinds of things. Mid-markets much more of a simply play, taking things off the shelf. No, maybe a little NSO, but it's also paired with a little bit of Ansible, a little bit of Python, and that's how they're going to handle their automation requirements, both, 'cause it's probably faster and probably in the long run, easier to maintain. >> Well, yeah. You bring up a great point, Omar. When I think traditionally that mid market and the channel partner often would be delivering prepackaged solutions. But today's solutions, you still need that a little bit of flexibility, that little bit of programming, they're not going to, throw a team of PhDs on it like some of the largest customers do. But they still need to be able to put things together and make them fit for what they need and ultimately their customers need. >> Yeah, I mean, every automation project it's still a snowflake. You take something or free VPN, right. Everyone does it, but everyone does it differently. There's no better, there's no worse. But if you're going to automate that you kind of start with an 80% solution, but then you need to line it up whether that's customer's infrastructure, their operations, their staff capabilities and those kinds of things. That's kind of getting over the finish line what CCI brings to the table in the mid market, sure. >> Yup. Mike, it's funny. I'm curious. CCI, does it have any relation with CCIE 'cause when we're talking about that skillsets that we need, obviously, you start, you think about Cisco certifications. How do you keep your team up on the latest technologies, making sure that they can be that trusted advisor that your customers need? >> Well, of course it's a combination of different things, classical learning, but I would say one of the big things is our collaboration capabilities. We have experts in many different areas and usually they have a secondary skill set and we collaborate. And a lot of times we make our own internal training that's more specific to our customers. So example, I really try to recommend to customers to move to EVPN technologies, but there's that learning curve that they don't know how to configure them. Next gen ethernet type of technologies for service providers. So by building an EVPN model and NSO, we're empowering them to leverage that sooner, faster with a smart tool like NSO. And that's really, some of the value that we have, we know what most of our customers use. The big guys tend to use layer three VPNs a lot of time. I would say just that a majority of our customers are very L two VPN vase or infrastructure services, and even offering them up to their own customers. So having a somewhat pre-packaged 80% as Omar had mentioned, and nothing's ever really the same all the time, but 80% of it probably is. And then we'll come in and then we can finish off that last 20% to make it come to life for that customer with a little bit of customization. So making it fit for their environment. >> Yeah, it's interesting. One of the biggest challenges out there for anyone is, okay, when do I have to revisit what I had? Is there a new technology? Is there a new way of doing things? So you just laid out like, you know, one way that customers, okay, this is the way I should be in my size thinking about VPN. Anything else? What, what kind of key things should people be hearing and they're saying up, if I have this problem, providers like CCI can help. >> Right. Just trying to increase the health of their network by having consistency checks. Over the years, networks have config wonder. It's very hard to keep that up even in the mid market networks. So the cleaner that your network is, the more uptime you're going to have, the easier it is for your network engineers and allows you to scale. Like I said, the time to businesses is just going rapidly. And being able to empower other teams like say knock or even sales engineering to build those L2VPNs for the customer. If you can build them faster by not escalating tickets to the core engineering team, you serve the customer faster and you freed up those network engineers to maybe be more proactive about building out the future network. Cause right now they're just stuck in that day to day grind. So config consistency, and like primary, like service builds L2, L3 VPN. Those are very popular. And one thing that I always like to challenge customers with is that a lot of times they're like, well, we can do it ourselves. And maybe some of these guys have a developer teams and typically they're more focused on the public facing website, internal apps. And I challenged like maybe you could... but what's your time worth to you? And the amount of man hours that were put into NSO, jumpstart you faster. And a lot of times I think you're going to gain more value in just getting that product that you can customize. 'Cause at the end of the day, it's a developer platform. So you bring it to life in your environment. >> Absolutely, there's so many things now that companies need to make that decision. Can they shift left? Can they push it to the platform? Are there solutions that just make things easier so that you can focus on really the things that are important to run your business and get the best utilization out of your people and the skillsets. Wonderful. Mike, Omar want to give you both, give us the final word takeaways you want people to have regarding kind of the opportunity that they can take advantage of, especially in the mid tier. Mike maybe we'll start with you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. I am just passionate about getting CCIS name out there. Not only for NetDevOps, but all the other practices that we have at CCI to be that trusted advisor and come talk to us. We have account teams that already, we have systems engineers that are ready. And I feel like one thing leads to another and it snowballs so reach out and I'd love to have a conversation with every single one of them, whether it's a small organization or a large organization, we're here to help. And that's super important to us. >> I think for us, we see automation start, tactically to science project. So ones trying to deal with the pain pointer or dealing with something here frustrated with which is, I think where most folks start. I think that the trick is to work with your peers, talk to your leadership and figure out how you go from science project to strategy and kind of map out the longer journey and be a little thoughtful as you pick tools and figuring out what you want to automate and make sure it has some value to. >> Mike Saur, Omar Sultan, thank you both for joining. Appreciate the update and especially on the CCI and Cisco partnership. >> Thanks too. >> Thank you. Have a great day. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. (upbeat music)