>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi, and welcome back. This is KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona. 7700 in attendance according to the CNCF foundation. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host for this week is Corey Quinn. And happy to welcome back to the program, a cube-i-lom Rob Szumski, who's the Product Manager for Red Hat OpenShift. Rob, thanks so much for joining us >> Happy to be here. >> All right, so a couple of weeks ago, we had theCUBE in Boston. You know, short drive for me, didn't have to take a flight as opposed to... I'm doing okay with the jet lag here, but Red Hat Summit was there. And it was a big crowd there, and the topic we're going to talk about with you is operators. And it was something we talked about a lot, something about the ecosystem. But let's start there. For our audience that doesn't know, What is an operator? How does it fit into this whole cloud-native space in this ecosystem? >> (Corey) And where can you hire one? >> (laughs) So there's software programs first of all. And the idea of an operator is everything it takes to orchestrate one of these complex distributor applications, databases, messaging queues, machine learning services. They all are distinct components that all need to be life-cycled. And so there's operational expertise around that, and this is something that might have been in a bash script before, you have a Wiki page. It's just in your head, and so it's putting that into software so that you can stamp out mini copies of that. So the operational expertise from the experts, so you want to go to the folks that make MongoDB for Mongo, for Reddits, for CouchBase, for TensorFlow, whatever it is. Those organizations can embed that expertise, and then take your user configuration and turn that into Kubernetes. >> Okay, and is there automation in that? When I hear the description, it reminds me a little bit of robotic process automation, or RPA, which you talk about, How can I harem them? RPA is, well there's certain jobs that are rather repetitive and we can allow software to do that, so maybe that's not where it is. But help me to put it into the >> No, I think it is. >> Okay, awesome. >> When you think about it, there's a certain amount of toil involved in operating anything and then there's just mistakes that are made by humans when you're doing this. And so you would rather just automate away that toil so you can spend you human capitol on higher level tasks. So that's what operator's all about. >> (Stu) All right. Great. >> Do you find that operator's are a decent approach to taking things that historically would not have been well-suited for autoscaling, for example, because there's manual work that has to happen whenever a no-joinser leaves a swarm. Is that something operators tend to address more effectively? Or am I thinking about this slightly in the wrong direction? >> Yeah, so you can do kind of any Kubernetes event you can hook into, so if your application cares about nodes coming and leaving, for example, this is helpful for operators that are operating the infrastructure itself, which OpenShift has under the hood. But you might care about when new name spaces are created or this pod goes away or whatever it is. You can kind of hook into everything there. >> So, effectively it becomes a story around running stateful things in what was originally designed for stateless containers. >> Yeah, that can help you because you care about nodes going away because your storage was on it, for example. Or, now I need to re-balance that. Whatever that type of thing is it's really critical for running stateful workloads. >> Okay, maybe give us a little bit of context as to the scope of operators and any customer examples you have that could help us add a little bit of concreteness to it. >> Yeah, they're designed to run almost anything. Every common workload that you can think about on an OpenShift cluster, you've got your messaging queues. We have a product that uses an operator, AMQ Streams. It's Kafka. And we've got folks that heavily use a Prometheus operator. I think there's a quote that's been shared around about one of our customer's Ticketmaster. Everybody needed some container native monitoring and everybody could figure out Prometheus on their own. Or they could use operator. So, they were running, I think 300-some instances of Prometheus and dev and staging and this team, that team, this person just screwing around with something over here. So, instead of being experts in Prometheus, they just use the operator then they can scale out very quickly. >> That's great because one of the challenges in this ecosystem, there's so many pieces of it. We always ask, how many companies need to be expert on not just Kubernetes, but any of these pieces. How does this tie into the CNCF, all the various projects that are available? >> I think you nailed it. You have to integrate all this stuff all together and that's where the value of something like OpenShift comes at the infrastructure layer. You got to pick all your networking and storage and your DNS that you're going to use and wire all that together and upgrade that. Lifecycle it. The same thing happens at a higher level, too. You've got all these components, getting your Fluentd pods down to operating things like Istio on Service Mesh's, serviceless workloads. All this stuff needs to be configured and it's all pretty complex. It's moving so fast, nobody can be an expert. The operator's actually the expert, embedded from those teams which is really awesome. >> You said something before we got started. A little bit about a certification program for operators. What is that about? >> We think of it as the super set of our community operators. We've got the TensorFlow community, for example, curates an operator. But, for companies that want to go to market jointly with Red Hat, we have a certification program that takes any of their community content, or some of their enterprise distributions and makes sure that it's well-tested on OpenShift and can be jointly supported by OpenShift in that partner. If you come to Red Hat with a problem with a MongoDB operator, for example, we can jointly solve that problem with MongoDB and ultimately keep your workload up and keep it running. We've got that times a bunch of databases and all kinds of servers like that. You can access those directly from OpenShift which is really exciting. One-click install of a production-ready Mongo cluster. You don't need to dig through a bunch of documentation for how that works. >> All right, so Rob, are all of these specific only to OpenShift, or will they work with flavors of Kubernetes? >> Most of the operators work just against the generic Kubernetes cluster. Some of them also do hook into OpenShift to use some of our specialized security primitives and things like that. That's where you get a little bit more value on OpenShift, but you're just targeting Kubernetes at the end of the day. >> What do you seeing customers doing with this specifically? I guess, what user stories are you seeing that is validating that this is the right direction to go in? >> It's a number of different buckets. The first one is seeing folks running services internally. You traditionally have a DBA team that maybe runs the shared database tier and folks are bringing that the container native world from their VM's that they're used to. Using operators to help with that and so now it's self-service. You have a dedicated cluster infrastructure team that runs clusters and gives out quota. Then, you're just eating into that quota to run whatever workloads that you want in an operator format. That's kind of one bucket of it. Then, you see folks that are building operators for internal operation. They've got deep expertise on one team, but if you're running any enterprise today especially like a large scale Ecommerce shop, there's a number of different services. You've got caching tier, and load balancing tiers. You've got front-ends, you've got back-ends, you've got queues. You can build operators around each one of those, so that those teams even when they're sharing internally, you know, hey where's the latest version of your stack? Here's the operator, go to town. Run it in staging QA, all that type of stuff. Then, lastly, you see these open source communities building operators which is really cool. Something like TensorFlow, that community curates an operator to get you one consistent install, so everyone's not innovating on 30 different ways to install it and you're actually using it. You're using high level stuff with TensorFlow. >> It's interesting to lay it out. Some of these okay, well, a company is doing that because it's behind something. Others you're saying it's a community. Remind me, just Red Hat's long history of helping to give if you will, adult supervision for all of these changes that are happening in the world out there. >> It's a fast moving landscape and some tools that we have are our operator SDK are helping to tame some of that. So, you can get quickly up and running, building an operator whether you are one of those communities, you are a commercial vendor, you're one of our partners, you're one of our customers. We've got tools for everybody. >> Anything specific in the database world that's something we're seeing, that Cambrian explosion in the database world? >> Yeah, I think that folks are finally wrapping their heads around that Kubernetes is for all workloads. And, to make people feel really good about that, you need something like an operator that's got this extremely well-tested code path for what happens when these databases do fail, how do I fail it over? It wasn't just some person that went in and made this. It's the expert, the folks that are committing to MongoDB, to CouchBase, to MySQL, to Postgres. That's the really exciting thing. You're getting that expertise kind of as extension of your operations team. >> For people here at the show, are there sessions about operators? What's the general discussion here at the show for your team? >> There's a ton. Even too many to mention. There's from a bunch of different partners and communities that are curating operators, talking about best practices for managing upgrades of them. Users, all that kind of stuff. I'm going to be giving a keynote, kind of an update about some of stuff we've been talking about here later on this evening. It's all over the place. >> What do you think right now in the ecosystem is being most misunderstood about operators, if anything? >> I think that nothing is quite misunderstood, it's just wrapping your head around what it means to operate applications in this manner. Just like Kubernetes components, there's this desired state loop that's in there and you need to wrap your head around exactly what needs to be in that. You're declarative state is just the Kubernetes API, so you can look at desired and actual and make that happen, just like all the Kub components. So, just looking at a different way of thinking. We had a panel yesterday at the OpenShift Commons about operators and one of the questions that had some really interesting answers was, What did you understand about your software by building an operator? Cause sometimes you need to tease apart some of these things. Oh, I had hard coded configuration here, one group shared that their leader election was not actually working correctly in every single incidences and their operator forced them to dig into that and figure out why. So, I think it's a give and take that's pretty interesting when you're building one of these things. >> Do you find that customers are starting to rely on operators to effectively run their own? For example, MongoDB inside of their Kubernetes clusters, rather than depending upon a managed service offering provided by their public cloud vendor, for example. Are you starting to see people effectively reducing public cloud to baseline primitives at a place to run containers, rather than the higher level services that are starting to move up the stack? >> A number of different reasons for that too. You see this for services if you find a bug in that service, for example, you're just out of luck. You can't go introspect the versions, you can't see how those components are interacting. With an operator you have an open source stack, it's running on your cluster in your infrastructure. You can go introspect exactly what's going on. The operator has that expertise built in, so it's not like you can screw around with everything. But, you have much more insight into what's going on. Another thing you can't get with a cloud service is you can't run it locally. So, if you've got developers that are doing development on an airplane, or just want to have something local so it's running fast, you can put your whole operator stack right on your laptop. Not something you can do with a hosted service which is really cool. Most of these are opens source too, so you can go see exactly how the operator's built. It's very transparent, especially if you're going to trust this for a core part of the infrastructure. You really want to know what's going on under the hood. >> Just to double check, all this can run on OpenShift? It is agnostic to where it lives, whether public cloud or data center? >> Exactly. These are truly hybrid services, so if you're migrating your database to here, for example, over now you have a truly hybrid just targeting Kubernetes environment. You can move that in any infrastructure that you like. This is one of the things that we see OpenShift customers do. Some of them want to be cloud-to-cloud, cloud-to-on-prem, different environments on prem only, because you've got database workloads that might not be leaving or a mainframe you need to tie into, a lot of our FSI customers. Operators can help you there where you can't move some of those workloads. >> Cloud-on-prem makes a fair bit of sense to me. One thing I'm not seeing as much of in the ecosystem is cloud-to-cloud. What are you seeing that's driving that? >> I think everybody has their own cloud that they prefer for whatever reasons. I think it's typically not even cost. It's tooling and cultural change. And, so you kind of invest in one of those. I think people are investing in technologies that might allow them to leave in the future, and operators and Kubernetes being one of those important things. But, that doesn't meant that they're not perfectly happy running on one cloud versus the other, running Kubernetes on top of that. >> Rob, really appreciate all the updates on operators. Thanks so much for joining us again. >> Absolutely. It's been fun. >> Good luck on the keynote. >> Thank you. >> For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage two days live from wall to wall here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching.

>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies: "Creating technologies that drive human progress." >> Good late afternoon from Barcelona, Spain at the Theater of Barcelona. It's Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson of "theCUBE" covering MWC23. This is our third day of continuous wall-to-wall coverage on theCUBE. And you know we're going to be here tomorrow as well. We've been having some amazing conversations about the ecosystem. And we're going to continue those conversations next. Honore Labourdette is here, the VP global partner, Ecosystem Success Team, Telco Media and Entertainment at Red Hat. And Tony Jeffries joins us as well, a Senior Director of Product Management, Telecom Systems Business at Dell. Welcome to the theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to have both of you here. So we're going to be talking about the evolution of the telecom stack. We've been talking a lot about disaggregation the last couple of days. Honore, starting with you, talk about the evolution of the telecom stock. You were saying before we went live this is your 15th at least MWC. So you've seen a lot of evolution, but what are some of the things you're seeing right now? >> Well, I think the interesting thing about disaggregation, which is a key topic, right? 'Cause it's so relative to 5G and the 5G core and the benefits and the features of 5G core around disaggregation. But one thing we have to remember, when you disaggregate, you separate things. You have to bring those things back together again in a different way. And that's predominantly what we're doing in our partnership with Dell, is we're bringing those disaggregated components back together in a cohesive way that takes advantage of the new technology, at the same time taking out the complexity and making it easier for our Telco customers to deploy and to scale and to get much more, accelerate the time to revenue. So the trend now is, what we're seeing is two things I would say. One is how do we solve for the complexity with the disaggregation? And how do we leverage the ecosystem as a partner in order to help solve for some of those challenges? >> Tony, jump on in, talk about what you guys announced last week, Dell and Red Hat, and how it's addressing the complexities that Honore was saying, "Hey, they're there." >> Yeah. You know, our customers, our operators are saying, "Hey, I want disaggregation." "I want competition in the market." But at the same time who's going to support all this disaggregation, right? And so at the end of the day, there's going to be an operator that's going to have to figure this out. They're going to have an SLA that they're going to have to meet. And so they're going to want to go with a best-in-class partner with Red Hat and Dell, in terms of our infrastructure and their software together as one combined engineered system. And that's what we call a Dell Telecom infrastructure block for Red Hat. And so at the end of the day, things may go wrong, and if they do, who are they going to call for that support? And that's also really a key element of an engineered system, is this experience that they get both with Red Hat and with Dell together supporting the customer as one. Which is really important to solve this disaggregated problem that can arise from a disaggregated open network situation, yeah. >> So what is the market, the go to market motion look like? People have loyalties in the IT space to technologies that they've embraced and been successful with for years and years. So you have folks in the marketplace who are diehard, you know, dyed red, Red Hat folks. Is it primarily a pull from them? How does that work? How do you approach that to your, what are your end user joint customers? What does that look like from your perspective? >> Sure, well, interestingly enough both Red Hat and Dell have been in the marketplace for a very long time, right? So we do have the brand with those Telco customers for these solutions. What we're seeing with this solution is, it's an emerging market. It's an emerging market for a new technology. So there's an opportunity for both Red Hat and Dell together to leverage our brands with those customers with no friction in the marketplace as we go to market together. So our field sales teams will be motivated to, you know, take advantage of the solution for their customers, as will the Dell team. And I'll let Tony speak to the Dell, go to market. >> Yeah. You know, so we really co-sell together, right? We're the key partners. Dell will end up fulfilling that order, right? We send these engineered systems through our factories and we send that out either directly to a customer or to a OTEL lab, like an intermediate lab where we can further refine and customize that offer for that particular customer. And so we got a lot of options there, but we're essentially co-selling. And Dell is fulfilling that from an infrastructure perspective, putting Red Hat software on top and the licensing for that support. So it's a really good mix. >> And I think, if I may, one of the key differentiators is the actual capabilities that we're bringing together inside of this pre-integrated solution. So it includes the Red Hat OpenShift which is the container software, but we also add our advanced cluster management as well as our Ansible automation. And then Dell adds their orchestration capability along with the features and functionalities of the platform. And we put that together and we offer capability, remote automation orchestration and management capabilities that again reduces the operating expense, reduces the complexity, allows for easy scale. So it's, you know, certainly it's all about the partnership but it's also the capabilities of the combined technology. >> I was just going to ask about some of the numbers, and you mentioned some of them. Reduction of TCO I imagine is also a big capability that this solution enables besides reducing OpEx. Talk about the TCO reduction. 'Cause I know there's some numbers there that Dell and Red Hat have already delivered to the market. >> Yeah. You know, so these infrastructure blocks are designed specifically for Core, or for RAN, or for the Edge. We're starting out initially in the Core, but we've done some market research with a company called ACG. And ACG has looked at day zero, day one and day two TCO, FTE hours saved. And we're looking at over 40 to 50% TCO savings over you know, five year period, which is quite significant in terms of cost savings at a TCO level. But also we have a lot of numbers around power consumption and savings around power consumption. But also just that experience for our operator that says, hey, I'm going to go to one company to get the best in class from Red Hat and Dell together. That saves a lot of time in procurement and that entire ordering process as well. So you get a lot of savings that aren't exactly seen in the FTE hours around TCO, but just in that overall experience by talking to one company to get the best of both from both Red Hat and Dell together. >> I think the comic book character Charlie Brown once said, "The most discouraging thing in the world is having a lot of potential." (laughing) >> Right. >> And so when we talk about disaggregating and then reaggregating or reintegrating, that means choice. >> Tony: Yeah. >> How does an operator approach making that choice? Because, yeah, it sounds great. We have this integration lab and you have all these choices. Well, how do I decide, how does a person decide? This is a question for Honore from a Red Hat perspective, what's the secret sauce that you believe differentiates the Red Hat-infused stack versus some other assemblage of gear? >> Well, there's a couple of key characteristics, and the one that I think is most prevalent is that we're open, right? So "open" is in Red Hat's DNA because we're an open source technology company, and with that open source technology and that open platform, our customers can now add workloads. They have options to choose the workloads that they want to run on that open source platform. As they choose those workloads, they can be confident that those workloads have been certified and validated on our platform because we have a very robust ecosystem of ISVs that have already completed that process with open source, with Red Hat OpenShift. So then we take the Red Hat OpenShift and we put it on the Dell platform, which is market leader platform, right? Combine those two things, the customers can be confident that they can put those workloads on the combined platform that we're offering and that those workloads would run. So again, it goes back to making it simpler, making it easy to procure, easy to run workloads, easy to deploy, easy to operate. And all of that of course equates to saving time always equates to saving money. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Oh, I thought you wanted to continue. >> No, I think Honore sort of, she nailed it. You know, Red Hat is so dominant in 5G, and what they're doing in the market, especially in the Core and where we're going into the RAN, you know, next steps are to validate those workloads, those workload vendors on top of a stack. And the Red Hat leader in the Core is key, right? It's instant credibility in the core market. And so that's one of the reasons why we, Dell, want to partner with with Red Hat for the core market and beyond. We're going to be looking at not only Core but moving into RAN very soon. But then we do, we take that validated workload on top of that to optimize that workload and then be able to instantiate that in the core and the RAN. It's just a really streamlined, good experience for our operators. At the end of the day, we want happy customers in between our mutual customer base. And that's what you get whenever you do that combined stack together. >> Were operators, any operators, and you don't have to mention them by name, involved in the evolution of the infra blocks? I'm just curious how involved they were in helping to co-develop this. I imagine they were to some degree. >> Yeah, I could take that one. So, in doing so, yeah, we can't be myopic and just assume that we nailed it the first time, right? So yeah, we do work with partners all the way up and down the stack. A lot of our engineering work with Red Hat also brings in customer experience that is key to ensure that you're building and designing the right architecture for the Core. I would like to use the names, I don't know if I should, but a lot of those names are big names that are leaders in our industry. But yeah, their footprints, their fingerprints are all over those design best practices, those architectural designs that we build together. And then we further that by doing those validated workloads on top of that. So just to really prove the point that it's optimized for the Core, RAN, Edge kind of workload. >> And it's a huge added value for Red Hat to have a partner like Dell who can take all of those components, take the workload, take the Red Hat software, put it on the platform, and deliver that out to the customers. That's really, you know, a key part of the partnership and the value of the partnership because nobody really does that better than Dell. That center of excellence around delivery and support. >> Can you share any feedback from any of those nameless operators in terms of... I'm even kind of wondering what the catalyst was for the infra block. Was it operators saying, "Ah, we have these challenges here"? Was it the evolution of the Telco stack and Dell said, "We can come in with Red Hat and solve this problem"? And what's been some of their feedback? >> Yeah, it really comes down to what Honore said about, okay, you know, when we are looking at day zero, which is primarily your design, how much time savings can we do by creating that stack for them, right? We have industry experts designing that Core stack that's optimized for different levels of spectrum. When we do that we save a lot of time in terms of FTE hours for our architects, our operators, and then it goes into day one, right? Which is the deployment aspect for saving tons of hours for our operators by being able to deploy this. Speed to market is key. That ultimately ends up in, you know, faster time to revenue for our customers, right? So it's, when they see that we've already done the pre-work that they don't have to, that's what really resonates for them in terms of that, yeah. >> Honore, Lisa and I happen to be veterans of the Cloud native space, and what we heard from a lot of the folks in that ecosystem is that there is a massive hunger for developers to be able to deploy and manage and orchestrate environments that consist of Cloud native application infrastructure, microservices. >> Right. >> What we've heard here is that 5G equals Cloud native application stacks. Is that a fair assessment of the environment? And what are you seeing from a supply and demand for that kind of labor perspective? Is there still a hunger for those folks who develop in that space? >> Well, there is, because the very nature of an open source, Kubernetes-based container platform, which is what OpenShift is, the very nature of it is to open up that code so that developers can have access to the code to develop the workloads to the platform, right? And so, again, the combination of bringing together the Dell infrastructure with the Red Hat software, it doesn't change anything. The developer, the development community still has access to that same container platform to develop to, you know, Cloud native types of application. And you know, OpenShift is Red Hat's hybrid Cloud platform. So it runs on-prem, it runs in the public Cloud, it runs at the edge, it runs at the far edge. So any of the development community that's trying to develop Cloud native applications can develop it on this platform as they would if they were developing on an OpenShift platform in the public Cloud. >> So in "The Graduate", the advice to the graduate was, "Plastics." Plastics. As someone who has more children than I can remember, I forget how many kids I have. >> Four. >> That's right, I have four. That's right. (laughing) Three in college and grad school already at this point. Cloud native, I don't know. Kubernetes definitely a field that's going to, it's got some legs? >> Yes. >> Okay. So I can get 'em off my payroll quickly. >> Honore: Yes, yes. (laughing) >> Okay, good to know. Good to know. Any thoughts on that open Cloud native world? >> You know, there's so many changes that's going to happen in Kubernetes and services that you got to be able to update quickly. CICD, obviously the topic is huge. How quickly can we keep these systems up to date with new releases, changes? That's a great thing about an engineered system is that we do provide that lifecycle management for three to five years through this engagement with our customers. So we're constantly keeping them up with the latest and the greatest. >> David: Well do those customers have that expertise in-house, though? Do they have that now? Or is this a seismic cultural shift in those environments? >> Well, you know, they do have a lot of that experience, but it takes a lot of that time, and we're taking that off of their plate and putting that within us on our system, within our engineered system, and doing that automatically for them. And so they don't have to check in and try to understand what the release certification matrix is. Every quarter we're providing that to them. We're communicating out to the operator, telling them what's coming up latest and greatest, not only in terms of the software but the hardware and how to optimize it all together. That's the beauty of these systems. These are five year relationships with our operators that we're providing that lifecycle management end to end, for years to come. >> Lisa: So last question. You talked about joint GTM availability. When can operators get their hands on this? >> Yes. Yes. It's currently slated for early September release. >> Lisa: Awesome. So sometime this year? >> Yes. >> Well guys, thank you so much for talking with us today about Dell, Red Hat, what you're doing to really help evolve the telecom stack. We appreciate it. Next time come back with a customer, we can dig into it. That'd be fun. >> We sure will, absolutely. That may happen today actually, a little bit later. Not to let the cat out the bag, but good news. >> All right, well, geez, you're going to want to stick around. Thank you so much for your time. For our guests and for Dave Nicholson. This is Lisa Martin of theCUBE at MWC23 from Barcelona, Spain. We'll be back after a short break. (calm music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are live from the AWS Reinvent Show floor here with the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with Dave Valante, and we have a very exciting conversation with you. Two, two companies you may have heard of. We've got AWS and Red Hat in the house. Manu and Joel, thank you so much for being here. Love this little fist bump. Started off, that's right. Before we even got rolling, Manu, you said that you wanted this to be the best segment of, of the cubes airing. We we're doing over a hundred segments, so you're gonna have to bring the heat. >>We're ready. We're did go. Are we ready? Yeah, go. We're ready. Let's bring it on. >>We're ready. All right. I'm, I'm ready. Dave's ready. Let's do it. How's the show going for you guys real quick before we dig in? >>Yeah, I think after Covid, it's really nice to see that we're back into the 2019 level and, you know, people just want to get out, meet people, have that human touch with each other, and I think a lot of trust gets built as a functional that, so it's super amazing to see our partners and customers here at Reedman. Yeah, >>And you've got a few in the house. That's true. Just a few maybe, maybe a couple >>Very few shows can say that, by the way. Yeah, it's maybe a handful. >>I think one of the things we were saying, it's almost like the entire Silicon Valley descended in the expo hall area, so >>Yeah, it's >>For a few different reasons. There's a few different silicon defined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't have strong on for you. So far >>It's, it's, it is amazing. It's the 10th year, right? It's decade, I think I've been to five and it's, it grows every single year. It's the, you have to be here. It's as simple as that. And customers from every single industry are here too. You don't get, a lot of shows have every single industry and almost every single location around the globe. So it's, it's a must, must be >>Here. Well, and the personas evolved, right? I was at reinvent number two. That was my first, and it was all developers, not all, but a lot of developers. And today it's a business mix, really is >>Totally, is a business mix. And I just, I've talked about it a little bit down the show, but the diversity on the show floor, it's the first time I've had to wait in line for the ladies' room at a tech conference. Almost a two decade career. It is, yeah. And it was really refreshing. I'm so impressed. So clearly there's a commitment to community, but also a commitment to diversity. Yeah. And, and it's brilliant to see on the show floor. This is a partnership that is robust and has been around for a little while. Money. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the partnership here? >>Yes. So Red Hand and AWS are best friends, you know, forever together. >>Aw, no wonder we got the fist bumps and all the good vibes coming out. I know, it's great. I love that >>We have a decade of working together. I think the relationship in the first phase was around running rail bundled with E two. Sure. We have about 70,000 customers that are running rail, which are running mission critical workloads such as sap, Oracle databases, bespoke applications across the state of verticals. Now, as more and more enterprise customers are finally, you know, endorsing and adopting public cloud, I think that business is just gonna continue to grow. So a, a lot of progress there. The second titration has been around, you know, developers tearing Red Hat and aws, Hey, listen, we wanna, it's getting competitive. We wanna deliver new features faster, quicker, we want scale and we want resilience. So just entire push towards devs containers. So that's the second chapter with, you know, red Hat OpenShift on aws, which launched as a, a joint manage service in 2021 last year. And I think the third phase, which you're super excited about, is just bringing the ease of consumption, one click deployment, and then having our customers, you know, benefit from the joint committed spend programs together. So, you know, making sure that re and Ansible and JBoss, the entire portfolio of Red Hat products are available on AWS marketplace. So that's the 1, 2, 3, it of our relationship. It's a decade of working together and, you know, best friends are super committed to making sure our customers and partners continue successful. >>Yeah, that he said it, he said it perfectly. 2008, I know you don't like that, but we started with Rel on demand just in 2008 before E two even had a console. So the partnership has been there, like Manu says, for a long time, we got the partnership, we got the products up there now, and we just gotta finalize that, go to market and get that gas on the fire. >>Yeah. So Graviton Outpost, local zones, you lead it into all the new stuff. So that portends, I mean, 2008, we're talking two years after the launch of s3. >>That's right. >>Right. So, and now look, so is this a harbinger of things to come with these new innovations? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, the innovation is a key tenant of our partnership, our relationship. So if you look at from a product standpoint, red Hat or Rel was one of the first platforms that made a support for graviton, which is basically 40% better price performance than any other distribution. Then that translated into making sure that Rel is available on all of our regions globally. So this year we launched Switzerland, Spain, India, and Red Hat was available on launch there, support for Nitro support for Outpost Rosa support on Outpost as well. So I think that relationship, that innovation on the product side, that's pretty visible. I think that innovation again then translates into what we are doing on marketplace with one click deployments we spoke about. I think the third aspect of the know innovation is around making sure that we are making our partners and our customers successful. So one of the things that we've done so far is Joe leads a, you know, a black belt team that really goes into each customer opportunity, making sure how can we help you be successful. We launched and you know, we should be able to share that on a link. After this, we launched like a big playlist, which talks about every single use case on how do you get successful and running OpenShift on aws. So that innovation on behalf of our customers partners to make them successful, that's been a key tenant for us together as >>Well. That's right. And that team that Manu is talking about, we're gonna, gonna 10 x that team this year going into January. Our fiscal yield starts in January. Love that. So yeah, we're gonna have a lot of no hiring freeze over here. Nope. No ma'am. No. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know what I love about working with aws and, and, and Manu just said it very, all of that's customer driven. Every single event that we, that he just talked about in that timeline, it's customer driven, right? Customers wanted rail on demand, customers want JBoss up in the cloud, Ansible this week, you know, everything's up there now. So it's just getting that go to market tight and we're gonna, we're gonna get that done. >>So what's the algorithm for customer driven in terms of taking the input? Because if every customers saying, Hey, I this a >>Really similar >>Question right up, right? I, that's what I want. And if you know, 95% of the customers say it, Jay, maybe that's a good idea. >>Yeah, that's right. Trends. But >>Yeah. You know, 30% you might be like, mm, you know, 20%, you know, how do you guys decide when to put gas on the fire? >>No, that, I think, as I mentioned, there are about 70,000 large customers that are running rail on Easy Two, many of these customers are informing our product strategy. So we have, you know, close to about couple of thousand power users. We have customer advisory booths, and these are the, you know, customers are informing us, Hey, let's get all of the Red Hat portfolio and marketplace support for graviton, support for Outpost. Why don't we, why are we not able to dip into the consumption committed spend programs for both Red Hat and aws? That's right. So it's these power users both at the developer level as well as the guys who are actually doing large commercial consumption. They are the ones who are informing the roadmap for both Red Hat and aws. >>But do, do you codify the the feedback? >>Yeah, I'm like, I wanna see the database, >>The, I think it was, I don't know, it was maybe Chasy, maybe it was Besos, that that data beats intuition. So do you take that information and somehow, I mean, it's global, 70,000 customers, right? And they have different weights, different spending patterns, different levels of maturity. Yeah. Do you, how do you codify that and then ultimately make the decision? Yeah, I >>If, I mean, well you, you've got the strategic advisory boards, which are made up of customers and partners and you know, you get, you get a good, you gotta get a good slice of your customer base to get, and you gotta take their feedback and you gotta do something with it, right? That's the, that's the way we do it and codify it at the product level, I'm sure open source. That's, that's basically how we work at the product level, right? The most elegant solution in open source wins. And that's, that's pretty much how we do that at the, >>I would just add, I think it's also just the implicit trust that the two companies had built with each other, working in the trenches, making our customers and partners successful over the last decade. And Alex, give an example. So that manifests itself in context of like, you know, Amazon and Red Hat just published the entire roadmap for OpenShift. What are the new features that are becoming over the next six to nine to 12 months? It's open source available on GitHub. Customers can see, and then they can basically come back and give feedback like, Hey, you know, we want hip compliance. We just launched. That was a big request that was coming from our >>Customers. That is not any process >>Also for Graviton or Nvidia instances. So I I I think it's a, >>Here's the thing, the reason I'm pounding on this is because you guys have a pretty high hit rate, and I think as a >>Customer, mildly successful company >>As, as a customer advocate, the better, you know, if, if you guys make bets that pay off, it's gonna pay off for customers. Right. And because there's a lot of failures in it. Yeah. I mean, let's face it. That's >>Right. And I think, I think you said the key word bets. You place a lot of small bets. Do you have the, the innovation engine to do that? AWS is the perfect place to place those small bets. And then you, you know, pour gas on the fire when, when they take off. >>Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, it's not expensive to experiment. Yeah. >>Especially in the managed service world. Right? >>And I know you love taking things to market and you're a go to market guy. Let's talk gtm, what's got your snow pumped about GTM for 2023? >>We, we are gonna, you know, 10 x the teams that's gonna be focused on these products, right? So we're gonna also come out with a hybrid committed spend program for our customers that meet them where they want to go. So they're coming outta the data center going into a cloud. We're gonna have a nice financial model for them to do that. And that's gonna take a lot of the friction out. >>Yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I, I think the, the fact that now entire Red Hat portfolio is available on marketplace, you can do it on one click deployment. It's deeply integrated with Amazon services and the most important part that Joel was making now customers can double dip. They can drive benefit from the consumption committed spend programs, both from Red Hat and from aws, which is amazing. Which is a game changer That's right. For many of our large >>Customers. That's right. And that, so we're gonna, we're gonna really go to town on that next year. That's, and all the, all the resources that I have, which are the technology sellers and the sas, you know, the engineers we're growing this team the most out that team. So it's, >>When you say 10 x, how many are you at now? I'm >>Curious to see where you're headed. Tell you, okay. There's not right? Oh no, there's not one. It's triple digit. Yeah, yeah. >>Today. Oh, sweet. Awesome. >>So, and it's a very sizable team. They're actually making sure that each of our customers are successful and then really making sure that, you know, no customer left behind policy. >>And it's a great point that customers love when Amazonians and Red Hats show up, they love it and it's, they want to get more of it, and we're gonna, we're gonna give it to 'em. >>Must feel great to be loved like that. >>Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. >>Seems like it's safe to say that there's another decade of partnership between your two companies. >>Hope so. That's right. That's the plan. >>Yeah. And I would say also, you know, just the IBM coming into the mix here. Yeah. I, you know, red Hat has informed the way we have turned around our partnership with ibm, essentially we, we signed the strategic collaboration agreement with the company. All of IBM software now runs on Rosa. So that is now also providing a lot of tailwinds both to our rail customers and as well as Rosa customers. And I think it's a very net creative, very positive for our partnership. >>That's right. It's been very positive. Yep. Yeah. >>You see the >>Billboards positive. Yeah, right. Also that, that's great. Great point, Dave. Yep. We have a, we have a new challenge, a new tradition on the cube here at Reinvent where we're, well, it's actually kind of a glamor moment for you, depending on how you leverage it. We're looking for your 32nd hot take your Instagram reel, your sizzle thought leadership, biggest takeaway, most important theme from this year's show. I know you want, right, Joel? I mean, you TM boy, I feel like you can spit the time. >>Yeah. It is all about Rosa for us. It is all in on that, that's the native OpenShift offering on aws and that's, that's the soundbite we're going go to town with. Now, I don't wanna forget all the other products that are in there, but Rosa is a, is a very key push for us this year. >>Fantastic. All right. Manu. >>I think our customers, it's getting super competitive. Our customers want to innovate just a >>Little bit. >>The enterprise customers see the cloud native companies. I wanna do what these guys are doing. I wanna develop features at a fast clip. I wanna scale, I wanna be resilient. And I think that's really the spirit that's coming out. So to Joel's point, you know, move to worlds containers, serverless, DevOps, which was like, you know, aha, something that's happening on the side of an enterprise is not becoming mainstream. The business is demanding it. The, it is becoming the centerpiece in the business strategy. So that's been really like the aha. Big thing that's happening here. >>Yeah. And those architectures are coming together, aren't they? That's correct. Right. You know, VMs and containers, it used to be one architecture and then at the other end of the spectrum is serverless. People thought of those as different things and now it's a single architecture and, and it's kind of right approach for the right job. >>And, and a compliments say to Red Hat, they do an incredible job of hiding that complexity. Yeah. Yes. And making sure that, you know, for example, just like, make it easier for the developers to create value and then, and you know, >>Yeah, that's right. Those, they were previously siloed architectures and >>That's right. OpenShift wanna be place where you wanna run containers or virtual machines. We want that to be this Yeah. Single place. Not, not go bolt on another piece of architecture to just do one or the other. Yeah. >>And hey, the hybrid cloud vision is working for ibm. No question. You know, and it's achievable. Yeah. I mean, I just, I've said unlike, you know, some of the previous, you know, visions on fixing the world with ai, hybrid cloud is actually a real problem that you're attacking and it's showing the results. Agreed. Oh yeah. >>Great. Alright. Last question for you guys. Cause it might be kind of fun, 10 years from now, oh, we're at another, we're sitting here, we all look the same. Time has passed, but we are not aging, which is a part of the new technology that's come out in skincare. That's my, I'm just throwing that out there. Why not? What do you guys hope that you can say about the partnership and, and your continued commitment to community? >>Oh, that's a good question. You go first this time. Yeah. >>I think, you know, the, you know, for looking into the future, you need to look into the past. And Amazon has always been driven by working back from our customers. That's like our key tenant, principle number 1 0 1. >>Couple people have said that on this stage this week. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I think our partnership, I hope over the next decade continues to keep that tenant as a centerpiece. And then whatever comes out of that, I think we, we are gonna be, you know, working through that. >>Yeah. I, I would say this, I think you said that, well, the customer innovation is gonna lead us to wherever that is. And it's, it's, it's gonna be in the cloud for sure. I think we can say that in 10 years. But yeah, anything from, from AI to the quant quantum computing that IBM's really pushing behind that, you know, those are, those are gonna be things that hopefully we show up on a, on a partnership with Manu in 10 years, maybe sooner. >>Well, whatever happens next, we'll certainly be covering it here on the cube. That's right. Thank you both for being here. Joel Manu, fantastic interview. Thanks to see you guys. Yeah, good to see you brought the energy. I think you're definitely ranking high on the top interviews. We >>Love that for >>The day. >>Thank >>My pleasure >>Job, guys. Now that you're competitive at all, and thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here from AWS Reinvent in Las Vegas, Nevada, with Dave Valante. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching The Cube, the leading source for high tech coverage.

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Hello everyone and welcome back to Motor City, Michigan. We're live from the Cube and my name is Savannah Peterson. Joined this afternoon with my co-host John Ferer. John, how you doing? Doing >>Great. This next segment's gonna be awesome about application modernization, scaling pluses. This is what's gonna, how are the next generation software revolution? It's gonna be >>Fun. You know, it's kind of been a theme of our day today is scale. And when we think about the complex orchestration platform that is Kubernetes, everyone wants to scale faster, quicker, more efficiently, and our guests are here to tell us all about that. Please welcome to Char and Andy, thank you so much for being here with us. You were on the Red Hat OpenShift team. Yeah. I suspect most of our audience is familiar, but just in case, let's give 'em a quick one-liner pitch so everyone's on the same page. Tell us about OpenShift. >>I, I'll take that one. OpenShift is our ES platform is our ES distribution. You can consume it as a self-managed platform or you can consume it as a managed service on on public clouds. And so we just call it all OpenShift. So it's basically Kubernetes, but you know, with a CNCF ecosystem around it to make things more easier. So maybe there's two >>Lights. So what does being at coupon mean for you? How does it feel to be here? What's your initial takes? >>Exciting. I'm having a fantastic time. I haven't been to coupon since San Diego, so it's great to be back in person and see old friends, make new friends, have hallway conversations. It's, it's great as an engineer trying to work in this ecosystem, just being able to, to be in the same place with these folks. >>And you gotta ask, before we came on camera, you're like, this is like my sixth co con. We were like, we're seven, you know, But that's a lot of co coupons. It >>Is, yes. I mean, so what, >>Yes. >>Take us status >>For sure. Where we are now. Compare and contrast co. Your first co con, just scope it out. What's the magnitude of change? If you had to put a pin on that, because there's a lot of new people coming in, they might not have seen where it's come from and how we got here is maybe not how we're gonna get to the next >>Level. I've seen it grow tremendously since the first one I went to, which I think was Austin several years ago. And what's great is seeing lots of new people interested in contributing and also seeing end users who are trying to figure out the best way to take advantage of this great ecosystem that we have. >>Awesome. And the project management side, you get the keys to the Kingdom with Red Hat OpenShift, which has been successful. Congratulations by the way. Thank you. We watched that grow and really position right on the wave. It's going great. What's the update on on the product? Kind of, you're in a good, good position right now. Yeah, >>No, we we're feeling good about it. It's all about our customers. Obviously the fact that, you know, we have thousands of customers using OpenShift as the cloud native platform, the container platform. We're very excited. The great thing about them is that, I mean you can go to like OpenShift Commons is kind of a user group that we run on the first day, like on Tuesday we ran. I mean you should see the number of just case studies that our customers went through there, you know? And it is fantastic to see that. I mean it's across so many different industries, across so many different use cases, which is very exciting. >>One of the things we've been reporting here in the Qla scene before, but here more important is just that if you take digital transformation to the, to its conclusion, the IT department and developers, they're not a department to serve the business. They are the business. Yes. That means that the developers are deciding things. Yeah. And running the business. Prove their code. Yeah. Okay. If that's, if that takes place, you gonna have scale. And we also said on many cubes, certainly at Red Hat Summit and other ones, the clouds are distributed computer, it's distributed computing. So you guys are focusing on this project, Andy, that you're working on kcp. >>Yes. >>Which is, I won't platform Kubernetes platform for >>Control >>Planes. Control planes. Yes. Take us through, what's the focus on why is that important and why is that relate to the mission of developers being in charge and large scale? >>Sure. So a lot of times when people are interested in developing on Kubernetes and running workloads, they need a cluster of course. And those are not cheap. It takes time, it takes money, it takes resources to get them. And so we're trying to make that faster and easier for, for end users and everybody involved. So with kcp, we've been able to take what looks like one normal Kubernetes and partition it. And so everybody gets a slice of it. You're an administrator in your little slice and you don't have to ask for permission to install new APIs and they don't conflict with anybody else's APIs. So we're really just trying to make it super fast and make it super flexible. So everybody is their own admin. >>So the developer basically looks at it as a resource blob. They can do whatever they want, but it's shared and provisioned. >>Yes. One option. It's like, it's like they have their own cluster, but you don't have to go through the process of actually provisioning a full >>Cluster. And what's the alternative? What's the what's, what's the, what's the benefit and what was the alternative to >>This? So the alternative, you spin up a full cluster, which you know, maybe that's three control plane nodes, you've got multiple workers, you've got a bunch of virtual machines or bare metal, or maybe you take, >>How much time does that take? Just ballpark. >>Anywhere from five minutes to an hour you can use cloud services. Yeah. Gke, E Ks and so on. >>Keep banging away. You're configuring. Yeah. >>Those are faster. Yeah. But it's still like, you still have to wait for that to happen and it costs money to do all of that too. >>Absolutely. And it's complex. Why do something that's been done, if there's a tool that can get you a couple steps down the path, which makes a ton of sense. Something that we think a lot when we're talking about scale. You mentioned earlier, Tohar, when we were chatting before the cams were alive, scale means a lot of different things. Can you dig in there a little bit? >>Yeah, I >>Mean, so when, when >>We talk about scale, >>We are talking about from a user perspective, we are talking about, you know, there are more users, there are more applications, there are more workloads, there are more services being run on Kubernetes now, right? So, and OpenShift. So, so that's one dimension of this scale. The other dimension of the scale is how do you manage all the underlying infrastructure, the clusters, the name spaces, and all the observability data, et cetera. So that's at least two levels of scale. And then obviously there's a third level of scale, which is, you know, there is scale across not just different clouds, but also from cloud to the edge. So there is that dimension of scale. So there are several dimensions of this scale. And the one that again, we are focused on here really is about, you know, this, the first one that I talk about is a user. And when I say user, it could be a developer, it could be an application architect, or it could be an application owner who wants to develop Kubernetes applications for Kubernetes and wants to publish those APIs, if you will, and make it discoverable and then somebody consumes it. So that's the scale we are talking about >>Here. What are some of the enterprise, you guys have a lot of customers, we've talked to you guys before many, many times and other subjects, Red Hat, I mean you guys have all the customers. Yeah. Enterprise, they've been there, done that. And you know, they're, they're savvy. Yeah. But the cloud is a whole nother ballgame. What are they thinking about? What's the psychology of the customer right now? Because now they have a lot of choices. Okay, we get it, we're gonna re-platform refactor apps, we'll keep some legacy on premises for whatever reasons. But cloud pretty much is gonna be the game. What's the mindset right now of the customer base? Where are they in their, in their psych? Not the executive, but more of the the operators or the developers? >>Yeah, so I mean, first of all, different customers are at different levels of maturity, I would say in this. They're all on a journey how I like to describe it. And in this journey, I mean, I see a customers who are really tip of the sphere. You know, they have containerized everything. They're cloud native, you know, they use best of tools, I mean automation, you know, complete automation, you know, quick deployment of applications and all, and life cycle of applications, et cetera. So that, that's kind of one end of this spectrum >>Advanced. Then >>The advances, you know, and, and I, you know, I don't, I don't have any specific numbers here, but I'd say there are quite a few of them. And we see that. And then there is kind of the middle who are, I would say, who are familiar with containers. They know what app modernization, what a cloud application means. They might have tried a few. So they are in the journey. They are kind of, they want to get there. They have some other kind of other issues, organizational or talent and so, so on and so forth. Kinds of issues to get there. And then there are definitely the quota, what I would call the lag arts still. And there's lots of them. But I think, you know, Covid has certainly accelerated a lot of that. I hear that. And there is definitely, you know, more, the psychology is definitely more towards what I would say public cloud. But I think where we are early also in the other trend that I see is kind of okay, public cloud great, right? So people are going there, but then there is the so-called edge also. Yeah. That is for various regions. You, you gotta have a kind of a regional presence, a edge presence. And that's kind of the next kind of thing taking off here. And we can talk more >>About it. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit because I, as you know, as we know, we're very excited about Edge here at the Cube. Yeah. What types of trends are you seeing? Is that space emerges a little bit more firmly? >>Yeah, so I mean it's, I mean, so we, when we talk about Edge, you're talking about, you could talk about Edge as a, as a retail, I mean locations, right? >>Could be so many things edges everywhere. Everywhere, right? It's all around us. Quite literally. Even on the >>Scale. Exactly. In space too. You could, I mean, in fact you mentioned space. I was, I was going to >>Kinda, it's this world, >>My space actually Kubernetes and OpenShift running in space, believe it or not, you know, So, so that's the edge, right? So we have Industrial Edge, we have Telco Edge, we have a 5g, then we have, you know, automotive edge now and, and, and retail edge and, and more, right? So, and space, you know, So it's very exciting there. So the reason I tag back to that question that you asked earlier is that that's where customers are. So cloud is one thing, but now they gotta also think about how do I, whatever I do in the cloud, how do I bring it to the edge? Because that's where my end users are, my customers are, and my data is, right? So that's the, >>And I think Kubernetes has brought that attention to the laggards. We had the Laed Martin on yesterday, which is an incredible real example of Kubernetes at the edge. It's just incredible story. We covered it also wrote a story about it. So compelling. Cuz it makes it real. Yes. And Kubernetes is real. So then the question is developer productivity, okay, Things are starting to settle in. We've got KCP scaling clusters, things are happening. What about the tool chains? And how do I develop now I got scale of development, more code coming in. I mean, we are speculating that in the future there's so much code in open source that no one has to write code anymore. Yeah. At some point it's like this gluing things together. So the developers need to be productive. How are we gonna scale the developer equation and eliminate the, the complexity of tool chains and environments. Web assembly is super hyped up at this show. I don't know why, but sounds good. No one, no one can tell me why, but I can kind of connect the dots. But this is a big thing. >>Yeah. And it's fitting that you ask about like no code. So we've been working with our friends at Cross Plain and have integrated with kcp the ability to no code, take a whole bunch of configuration and say, I want a database. I want to be a, a provider of databases. I'm in an IT department, there's a bunch of developers, they don't wanna have to write code to create databases. So I can just take, take my configuration and make it available to them. And through some super cool new easy to use tools that we have as a developer, you can just say, please give me a database and you don't have to write any code. I don't have to write any code to maintain that database. I'm actually using community tooling out there to get that spun up. So there's a lot of opportunities out there. So >>That's ease of use check. What about a large enterprise that's got multiple tool chains and you start having security issues. Does that disrupt the tool chain capability? Like there's all those now weird examples emerging, not weird, but like real plumbing challenges. How do you guys see that evolving with Red >>Hat and Yeah, I mean, I mean, talking about that, right? The software, secure software supply chain is a huge concern for everyone after, especially some of the things that have happened in the past few >>Years. Massive team here at the show. Yeah. And just within the community, we're all a little more aware, I think, even than we were before. >>Before. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think the, so to step back, I mean from, so, so it's not just even about, you know, run time vulnerability scanning, Oh, that's important, but that's not enough, right? So we are talking about, okay, how did that container, or how did that workload get there? What is that workload? What's the prominence of this workload? How did it get created? What is in it? You know, and what, what are, how do I make, make sure that there are no unsafe attack s there. And so that's the software supply chain. And where Red Hat is very heavily invested. And as you know, with re we kind of have roots in secure operating system. And rel one of the reasons why Rel, which is the foundation of everything we do at Red Hat, is because of security. So an OpenShift has always been secure out of the box with things like scc, rollbacks access control, we, which we added very early in the product. >>And now if you kind of bring that forward, you know, now we are talking about the complete software supply chain security. And this is really about right how from the moment the, the, the developer rights code and checks it into a gateway repository from there on, how do you build it? How do you secure it at each step of the process, how do you sign it? And we are investing and contributing to the community with things like cosign and six store, which is six store project. And so that secures the supply chain. And then you can use things like algo cd and then finally we can do it, deploy it onto the cluster itself. And then we have things like acs, which can do vulnerability scanning, which is a container security platform. >>I wanna thank you guys for coming on. I know Savannah's probably got a last question, but my last question is, could you guys each take a minute to answer why has Kubernetes been so successful today? What, what was the magic of Kubernetes that made it successful? Was it because no one forced it? Yes. Was it lightweight? Was it good timing, right place at the right time community? What's the main reason that Kubernetes is enabling all this, all this shift and goodness that's coming together, kind of defacto unifies people, the stacks, almost middleware markets coming around. Again, not to use that term middleware, but it feels like it's just about to explode. Yeah. Why is this so successful? I, >>I think, I mean, the shortest answer that I can give there really is, you know, as you heard the term, I think Satya Nala from Microsoft has used it. I don't know if he was the original person who pointed, but every company wants to be a software company or is a software company now. And that means that they want to develop stuff fast. They want to develop stuff at scale and develop at, in a cloud native way, right? You know, with the cloud. So that's, and, and Kubernetes came at the right time to address the cloud problem, especially across not just one public cloud or two public clouds, but across a whole bunch of public clouds and infrastructure as, and what we call the hybrid clouds. I think the ES is really exploded because of hybrid cloud, the need for hybrid cloud. >>And what's your take on the, the magic Kubernetes? What made it, what's making it so successful? >>I would agree also that it came about at the right time, but I would add that it has great extensibility and as developers we take it advantage of that every single day. And I think that the, the patterns that we use for developing are very consistent. And I think that consistency that came with Kubernetes, just, you have so many people who are familiar with it and so they can follow the same patterns, implement things similarly, and it's just a good fit for the way that we want to get our software out there and have, and have things operate. >>Keep it simple, stupid almost is that acronym, but the consistency and the de facto alignment Yes. Behind it just created a community. So, so then the question is, are the developers now setting the standards? That seems like that's the new way, right? I mean, >>I'd like to think so. >>So I mean hybrid, you, you're touching everything at scale and you also have mini shift as well, right? Which is taking a super macro micro shift. You ma micro shift. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. It is a micro shift. That is, that is fantastic. There isn't a base you don't cover. You've spoken a lot about community and both of you have, and serving the community as well as your engagement with them from a, I mean, it's given that you're both leaders stepping back, how, how Community First is Red Hat and OpenShift as an organization when it comes to building the next products and, and developing. >>I'll take and, and I'm sure Andy is actually the community, so I'm sure he'll want to a lot of it. But I mean, right from the start, we have roots in open source. I'll keep it, you know, and, and, and certainly with es we were one of the original contributors to Kubernetes other than Google. So in some ways we think about as co-creators of es, they love that. And then, yeah, then we have added a lot of things in conjunction with the, I I talk about like SCC for Secure, which has become part security right now, which the community, we added things like our back and other what we thought were enterprise features needed because we actually wanted to build a product out of it and sell it to customers where our customers are enterprises. So we have worked with the community. Sometimes we have been ahead of the community and we have convinced the community. Sometimes the community has been ahead of us for other reasons. So it's been a great collaboration, which is I think the right thing to do. But Andy, as I said, >>Is the community well set too? Are well said. >>Yes, I agree with all of that. I spend most of my days thinking about how to interact with the community and engage with them. So the work that we're doing on kcp, we want it to be a community project and we want to involve as many people as we can. So it is a heavy focus for me and my team. And yeah, we we do >>It all the time. How's it going? How's the project going? You feel good >>About it? I do. It is, it started as an experiment or set of prototypes and has grown leaps and bounds from it's roots and it's, it's fantastic. Yeah. >>Controlled planes are hot data planes control planes. >>I >>Know, I love it. Making things work together horizontally scalable. Yeah. Sounds like cloud cloud native. >>Yeah. I mean, just to add to it, there are a couple of talks that on KCP at Con that our colleagues s Stephan Schemanski has, and I, I, I would urge people who have listening, if they have, just Google it, if you will, and you'll get them. And those are really awesome talks to get more about >>It. Oh yeah, no, and you can tell on GitHub that KCP really is a community project and how many people are participating. It's always fun to watch the action live to. Sure. Andy, thank you so much for being here with us, John. Wonderful questions this afternoon. And thank all of you for tuning in and listening to us here on the Cube Live from Detroit. I'm Savannah Peterson. Look forward to seeing you again very soon.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to Chicago theCUBE is live on the floor at AnsibleFest 2022, the first in-person Ansible event that we've covered since 2019. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, great to be here. There's about 1400 to 1500 people here in person, the partner ecosystem is growing and evolving, and that's going to be one of the themes of our next conversation. >> CloudScale is continuing to change the ecosystem, and this segment with AWS is going to be awesome. >> Exactly, we've got one of our alumni back with us, Stefanie Chiras joins us again, senior vice president, partner ecosystem success at Red Hat. and Manasi Jagannatha is also here Global Alliance Manager at AWS. Ladies, welcome to the program. >> Both: Thank you. >> Manasi: Nice to be here. >> Stefanie: Yeah. >> So some exciting news that came out. First of all was great to see you on stage. >> Thank you. >> In front of a live audience. The community is, you talked about this before we went live. The Ansible is nothing, if not the community. So I can only imagine how great that felt to be on stage in front of live bodies announcing the next step with Ansible and AWS. Tell us about that. >> I mean, you can't compete with the energy that comes from a live event. And I remember the first AnsibleFest I came to, it's just this electric feeling born out of the community, born out of collaboration and getting together feeds that collaboration in a way that like nothing else. >> Lisa: Can't do it by video alone. >> You cannot. And so it was so fun cuz today was big news. We announced that Ansible will be available through the AWS marketplace, the next step in our partnership journey. And we've been hearing like most of our announcements, we do these because customers ask for them. And that's really what is key. And the combination of what Red Hat brings to the table and what AWS brings to the table. That's what underpins this announcement this morning. >> Talk about it from a customer demand perspective and how you are not only meeting customers where they are, but you're speaking their language. >> Manasi: Yeah. >> Yeah, there's a couple of aspects and then I want to pass it to Manasi because nothing speaks better than a customer experience. But the specifics I think of what come together is this is where technology, procurement, experience, accessibility all come together. And it took both of us in order to do that. But we actually talked about a great example today, the TransUnion. >> So we have TransUnion, they are a credit reporting company and they're a giant customer. They use RHEL, they use AWS services. So while they were transitioning to the cloud, the first thing they wanted to know was compliance, right? Like, how do we have guardrails around compliance? That was a key feature for them. And then the other piece was how do we scale without increasing the complexity? And then the critical piece was being able to integrate with the depth of AWS services without having to do it over and over again. So what TransUnion did was they basically integrated Ansible automation platform with the AWS Cloud Control API that gave them the flexibility To basically integrate with what, 200 plus services? And it's amazing to see them grow over time. >> What's interesting is that Amazon, obviously cloud has been awesome. We've been covering it since the beginning. DevOps infrastructures code was the dream. Now it's app says code, you have configuration code before that. As cloud goes next level here, we're starting to see a lot more higher level services on AWS being adopted by customers. And so I want to get into how the marketplace deal works. So what's in it for the customer? Because as they bring Ansible across the enterprise and edge, now we're seeing that develop. If I'm the customer, am I buying it through the marketplace? What's the mechanics of the deal? Can I just tap into the bill, explain the marketplace workflow or how it works? >> Yeah, I'd love to do that. So customers come to the marketplace for three key benefits, right? Like one is the consumption based model, pay as you go, you can get hourly, annual, and spot instances. For some services you even get per second billing, right? Like, that's amazing, that's one. And then the other piece is John and Stefanie, as you know, customers would love to draw down on their EDPs, right? Like they want a single- >> EDPs, explain that with acronym. >> It's enterprise discount program. So they want a single bill where they can use third party services and AWS services and they don't have to go through the hustle of saying, "Hey, let me combine all these different pieces." So combining that, and of course the power of Ansible, right? Like customers love Ansible, they've built playbooks. The beauty of it is whatever you want to build on AWS, there is most likely a playbook or a module that already exists. So they can just tap into that and build into- >> Operationally it's a purchasing through marketplace. >> And you know, I mean, being an engineer myself, we always often get caught up in the technology aspect. Like what's the greatest technology? And everyone, as Manasi said, everyone loves the technology of Ansible, but the procurement aspect is also so important. And this is where I think this partnership really comes together. It is natively, Ansible is now, natively integrated into AWS billing. So one bill, you go and you log in. Now you have a Red Hat subscription, you get all the benefits from Red Hat that comes along with that subscription. But the like Ansible is all about simplicity. This brings simplicity to that procurement model and it allows you to scale within your AWS cloud environment that you have set up. And as Manasi mentioned, pull in those other native services from AWS. It's Great. >> It's interesting one of the things that buzzword Lisa and I were just talking as in the industry is the word multiplayer. I've heard people say that's multiplayer software, kind of a gaming analogy. But what you guys are doing is setting up, once they go with Ansible in the marketplace, they're just buying as things get more collaborative off the marketplace. So it kind of streamlines, if I get this right. >> Stefanie: Yep. >> The purchasing process. So they're already in, they just use it's on the bill. Is that kind of how it works? >> Yep. >> Absolutely done, yeah. >> So it the customer has a partnership with us more on the technology side and this particular case and with AWS and the procurement side, it brings that together. >> So multiplayer software, is it multiplayer software? >> We like to talk about multi-partner solutions and I think this provides a new grounding for other partners to come in and build upon that with their services capabilities, with their other technology capabilities. So well clearly in my world, we talk about multi-partner. (both laughs) >> Well, what you're doing is empowering the developers. I know that Red Hat is one of its goals is let's make things much more seamless, much smoother for the developers as the buyer's journey has changed. And John, you've talked about that quite a bit. You're empowering those buyers to actually have a much simpler, streamlined process and to be able to start seeing automation become democratized across organizations. >> Yeah, and one of the things I love about the announcement as well is it pulls in the other values of Ansible automation platform in that simplicity model that you mentioned with like things like certified collections, certified collections that have been built by partners. We have built certified collections, to go along with this offering as well as part of the AWS offering that pulls in these other partner engagements together. And as you said, democratizes not only what we've done together, but what we've done with other partners together. >> Lisa: Right. >> Yeah. >> Can you kind of talk kind of about the depths of the partnership, the co-engineering, and sort of the evolution and the customer involvement in the expansion of the partnership? >> Yeah, I'd love to walk you through that. So we've had a longstanding partnership coming up on 15 years now Stefanie, can you believe it? >> Stefanie: Yeah. (laughs) >> 15 years we've been building, to give you some historical context, right? In back in 2008 we launched RHEL and in 2015 we supported SAP workloads on RHEL. And then the list goes on, right? Like we've been launching Graviton instances, Arm instances, Nitro. The key to be noted here is that every new instance Launch, RHEL has always been supported on day one, right? Like that's been our motto. So that's one. And then in 2021, as you know, we launched Rosa Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS. And that's helped customers with their modernization journey to AWS. So that's been context historically around where we were and where we are today. And now with Ansible, it just gives customer another tool in their arsenal, right? And then the goal is to make sure we meet customers where they are, give them all the Red Hat products that they love using on their hybrid workloads. >> Sounds like a lot is coming maybe at re:Invent too, coming up. >> Yeah. >> What's next? >> This is the beginning, right? We'll continue to grow and based upon not only laying the building blocks for what customers can build with, and you mentioned Lisa, right? We follow this journey that Manasi talked about because of what customers ask for. So it's always a new adventure to determine what'll come next based upon what we hear from our joint customers. >> On that front though, Stefanie, talk about the impact of the broader ecosystem that this is just scratching the surface. >> One of the things, and we've been going through a whole transformation at Red Hat about how we engage with the ecosystem. We've done organizational shifts, we've done a complete revamp of how we engage with the ecosystem. One of our biggest focus is to make sure that the partnerships that we have with one partner bring value to the rest of our partners. No better example than something like this when we work with AWS to create accessibility and capability through a procurement model that we know is important to customers. But that then serves as a launch point for other partners to build certified collections around or now around validated content, which we talked about today at AnsibleFest, that allows other partners to engage. And we're seeing a huge amount in services partners, right? Automation is so pervasive now as customers want to go out and scale. We're seeing services partners really come in and help customers go from, it's always challenging when you have a broad set of IT. You have cloud native over here, you have bare metal over here, you have virtual, it's complex. >> John: Yeah. >> There's sometimes an energy activation barrier to get over that initial automation. We're seeing partners come in with really skilled services capabilities to help customers get over that hump to consolidate with an automation plan. It gets them better equipped to do day one automation and day two automation. And that's where Ansible automation platform is going. It's not just about configuration management, it's about day two management as well. >> Talk about those barriers a little bit more and how Ansible and AWS together are helping customers really knock those out of the park. Another baseball reference for you. We see that a lot of organizations, the skills gap, which we've talked about already on the conversation today, but Ansible as being a facilitator of helping organizations to attract talent, to retain talent, but also customers that maybe don't know where to start or don't know how to determine the ROI that automating processes will bring. How can this partnership help customers nock those out of the park? >> So I'll start and then I'll pass it to Manasi here. But I think one of the key things in this particular partnership is just plain old accessibility. Accessibility, which public cloud has taught the world a new way to get fast access that consumption based pricing. Right you can get your hands on it, you can test it out, you can have a team go in and test it out, and then you can see it's built for scale. So then you can scale it as far as you want to go forward. We clearly have an ecosystem of services partners, so does AWS to help people then sort of take it to the next level as they want to build upon it. But to me the first step is about accessibility, getting your hands dirty. You can build it into those committed spend programs that you may have with AWS as well to try new things. But it's a great test bed. >> Absolutely. And then to add to what Stefanie said, together Red Hat and AWS, we have about a hundred thousand partners combined, right? Like resellers, sis, GSI, distributors. So the reach the combined partnership has just amplifies. >> Yeah, it's huge news. I think it's a big deal because you operationalize the heavy lifting of procurement for all your joint customers and the scale piece is huge. So congratulations. I think it's going to make a lot of money for Ansible. So good call there. My question is, as we hear here, the next level's edge. So AWS has been doing a ton of hybrids since outpost announcement years ago. Now you got all kinds of regional expansions, you've got local zones, you've got all kinds of new edge activity. So are there dots connecting here with the edge with Red Hat Ansible? >> Do you want- >> Yeah, so I think we see two trends with our customers, right? Like mainly I'm specifically talking about our RHEL customer base on AWS. We have almost hundreds to thousands of customers using RHEL on AWS. These are 90% of fortune 500 companies use RHEL, right? So with that customer base, they are looking to expand your point into the edge. There's outposts, there are so many hybrid environments that they're trying to expand in. So just adding Ansible, RHEL, Rosa, OpenShift, that entire makes, just gives customers that the plethora of products they need to run their workloads everywhere, right? Like we have certifications outpost, we have certifications with OpenShift, right? So it just completes the puzzle, if you- >> So it's a nice fit. >> Yeah. >> It is a really nice fit. And I love Edge and Edge once you start going distributed, this automation aspect is key for all the reasons, for security reasons to make sure you do it the same way every single time. It's just pervasive in it. But things like the Cloud Control API allow it to bridge into things like Outpost. It allows a simple way, one clean way to do API and then you can expand it out and get the value. >> So this is why you are on stage and you said that Ansible's going to expand the scope to be more enterprise architecture. >> Stefanie: That's right. >> That's essentially what you're getting at. This is now a distributed computing fabric at cloud scale on AWS. >> Stefanie: That's right. >> Did I get that right? >> Yep, and it touches all the different deployments you may have, on-prem, virtual, cloud native, you name it. >> So how do the people turn into architects? Cuz this is, again, we had this earlier conversation with Tom, multi-tool players, a baseball analogy I used. It's like signifies the best player, your customers are becoming multiple tool players or operators. The new operator is now the top talent. They got to run Ansible, they got to automate, they got to provide services to the cloud native developers. So this new role is emerging, it's not a cloud architect but it's, if it's going to be system architecture wide, what's this new person look like that's going to run all this? >> I think it's an interesting question. We were talking yesterday, actually, Tom and I were talking with the partners. We had Partner Day, the first ever at AnsibleFest yesterday, which was great. We got a lot of insight. They talked a lot about this platform focus, right? Customers are looking to create that platform so that the developers can come in and build upon it without compromising what they want to do. So I do think there's a move in that direction to say how do you create these platforms at a company that no compromises, but it provides that consistency. I would say one thing in partnerships like this, I think customer expectations on the partner ecosystem to have it be trusted is increasing. They expect us as we've done to have our engineers roll up their sleeves together to come to the table together. That's going to show up in our curated content. It's going to show up in our validated content. Those are the places I think where we come up from the bottom through our partnership and we help bridge that gap. >> John: Awesome. >> And trust was brought up a number of times this morning during the keynote. We're almost out of time here, but I think it's one of those words that a lot of companies use. But I think what you're showing is really the value in it from Ansible's perspective from AWS's perspective and ultimately the value in it for the customer. >> Stefanie: Yes. >> So I got to ask you one final question. >> Stefanie: Absolutely. >> And maybe as as reinvent is around the corner, what's next for the partnership? Obviously big news today, Manasi, looking down down the pipe- >> Stefanie: Big news today. >> What are some of the things that you think are going to become next that you can share? >> I mean at this point, and I'll pass it to Manasi to close us out, but we are continuing to follow, to meet our customers where they want to be. We are looking across our portfolio for different ways that customers want to consume within AWS. We'll continue to look at the procurement models through the partner programs that Manasi and the team have had. And to me the next step is really bringing in the rest of the ecosystem. How do we use this as a grounding step? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we are always listening to customer feedback and they want more Red Hat products in the marketplace. So that's where we'll be. >> In the marketplace. >> Congratulations great deal. >> Yes great work there guys. And customers always want more. That's the thing. But that's what keeps us going. So we love it. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you so much for joining John and me on the program today. It's been great to have you. And congratulations again. >> It's a pleasure. >> Thank you. >> For our guests and for John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from Chicago at AnsibleFest 2022. This is only day one of our coverage. We'll be back after a short break for more. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> We're back at the Seaport in Boston. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Paul Gillin. Tracie Zenti is here. She's the Director of Global Partner Management at Microsoft, and Tom Anderson is the Vice President of Ansible at Red Hat. Guys, welcome to theCube. >> Hi, thank you. >> Yep. >> Ansible on Azure, we're going to talk about that. Why do I need Ansible? Why do I need that kind of automation in Azure? What's the problem you're solving there? >> Yeah, so automation itself is connecting customers' infrastructure to their end resources, so whether that infrastructure's in the cloud, whether it's in the data center, or whether it's at the edge. Ansible is the common automation platform that allows customers to reuse automation across all of those platforms. >> And so, Tracie, I mean, Microsoft does everything. Why do you need Red Hat to do Ansible? >> We want that automation, right? We want our customers to have that ease of use so they can be innovative and bring their workloads to Azure. So that's exactly why we want Ansible. >> Yeah, so kind of loaded questions here, right, as we were sort of talking offline. The nature of partnerships is changing. It's about co-creating, adding value together, getting those effects of momentum, but maybe talk about how the relationship started and how it's evolving and I'd love to have your perspective on the evolving nature of ecosystems. >> Yeah, I think the partnership with Red Hat has been strong for a number of years. I think my predecessor was in the role for five years. There was a person in there for a couple years before that. So I think seven or eight years, we've been working together and co-engineering. Red Hat enterprised Linux. It's co-engineered. Ansible was co-engineered. We work together, right? So we want it to run perfectly on our platform. We want it to be a good customer experience. I think the evolution that we're seeing is in how customers buy, right? They want us to be one company, right? They want it to be easy. They want be able to buy their software where they run it on the cloud. They don't want to have to call Red Hat to buy and then call us to buy and then deploy. And we can do all that now with Ansible's the first one we're doing this together and we'll grow that on our marketplace so that it's easy to buy, easy to deploy, easy to keep track of. >> This is not just Ansible in the marketplace. This is actually a fully managed service. >> That's right. >> What is the value you've added on top of that? >> So it runs in the customer account, but it acts kind of like SaaS. So Red Hat gets to manage it, right? And it's in their own tenant. So they get in the customer's own tenant, right? So with a service principle, Red Hat's able to do that management. Tom, do you want to add anything to that? >> Yeah, the customers don't have to worry about managing Ansible. They just worry about using Ansible to automate their infrastructure. So it's a kind of a win-win situation for us and for our customers. We manage the infrastructure for them and the customer's resources themselves and they get to just focus on automating their business. >> Now, if they want to do cross-cloud automation or automation to their hybrid cloud, will you support that as well? >> 100%. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> We're totally fine with that, right? I mean, it's unrealistic to think customers run everything in one place. That isn't enterprise. That's not reality. So yeah, I'm fine with that. >> Well, that's not every cloud provider. >> No (laughing) that's true. >> You guys over here, at Amazon, you can't even say multicloud or you'll get thrown off the stage. >> Of course we'd love it to all run on Azure, but we want our customers to be happy and have choice, yeah. >> You guys have all, I mean, you've been around a long time. So you had a huge on-prem state, brought that to the cloud, and Azure Stack, I mean, it's been around forever and it's evolved. So you've always believed in, whatever you call it, Hybrid IT, and of course, you guys, that's your call of mission. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So how do you each see hybrid? Where's the points of agreement? It sounds like there's more overlap than gaps, but maybe you could talk about your perspective. >> Yeah, I don't think there are any points of disagreement. I think for us, it's meeting our customers where their center of gravity is, where they see their center of management gravity. If it's on Azure, great. If it's on their data center, that's okay, too. So they can manage to or from. So if Azure is their center of gravity, they can use automation, Ansible automation, to manage all the things on Azure, things on other cloud providers, things in their data center, all the way out to their edge. So they have the choice of what makes the most sense to them. >> And Azure Arc is obviously, that's how Azure Stack is evolving, right? >> Yeah, and we have Azure Arc integration with Ansible. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we also have Rell on our marketplace, right? So you can buy the basement and you could buy the roof and everything in between. So we're growing the estate on marketplace as well to all the other products that we have in common. So absolutely. >> How much of an opportunity, just go if we go inside? Give us a little peak inside Microsoft. How much of an opportunity does Microsoft think about multi-cloud specifically? I'm not crazy about the term multicloud, 'cause to me, multicloud, runs an Azure, runs an AWS, runs on Google, maybe runs somewhere else. But multicloud meaning that common experience, your version of hybrid, if you will. How serious is Microsoft about that as a business opportunity? A lot of people would say, well, Microsoft really doesn't want. They want everything in their cloud. But I'd love to hear from you if that is good. >> Well, we have Azure Red Hat OpenShift, which is a Microsoft branded version of OpenShift. We have Ansible now on our marketplace. We also, of course, we have AKS. So I mean, container strategy runs anywhere. But we also obviously have services that enhance all these things. So I think, our marketplace is a third party marketplace. It is designed to let customers buy and run easily on Azure and we'd want to make that experience good. So I don't know that it's... I can't speak to our strategy on multicloud, but what I can speak to is when businesses need to do innovation, we want it to be easy to do that, right? We want it to be easy to buy, defined, buy, deploy, manage, and that's what we're trying to accomplish. >> Fair to say, you're not trying to stop it. >> No, yeah, yeah. >> Whether or not it evolves into something that you heavily lean into or see. >> When we were talking before the cameras turned on, you said that you think marketplaces are the future. Why do you say that? And how will marketplaces be differentiated from each other in the future? >> Well, our marketplace is really, first of all, I think, as you said off camera, they're now. You can buy now, right? There's nothing that stops you. But to me, it's an extension of consumerization of IT. I've been in IT and manageability for about 23 years and full automation is what we and IT used to always talk about, that single pane of glass. How do you keep track of everything? How do you make it easy? How do you support? And IT is always eeking out that last little bit of funding to do innovation, right? So what we can do with consumerization of IT is make it easier to innovate. Make it cheaper to innovate, right? So I think marketplaces do that, right? They've got gold images you can deploy. You're also able to deploy custom images. So I think the future is as particularly with ours, like we support, I don't remember the exact number, but over a hundred countries of tax calculation. We've got like 17 currencies. So as we progress and customers can run from anywhere in the world and buy from anywhere in the world and make it simple to do those things that used to take maybe two months to spin up services for innovation and Ansible helps with that, that's going to help enterprises innovate faster. And I think that's what marketplaces are really going to bring to the forefront is that innovation. >> Tom, why did Ansible, I'm going to say one, I mean, you're never done. But it was unclear a few years ago, which automation platform was going to win in the marketplace and clearly, Ansible has taken a leading position. Why? What were the factors that led to that? >> Honestly, it was the strength of the community, right? And Red Hat leaning into that community to support that community. When you look out at the upstream community for Ansible and the number of participants, active participants that are contributing to the community just increases its value to everybody. So the number of integrations, the number of things that you can automate with Ansible is in the thousands and thousands, and that's not because a group of Red Hat engineers wrote it. That's because our community partners, like Microsoft wrote the user integrations for Ansible. F5 does theirs. Customers take those and expand on them. So the number of use cases that we can address through the community and through our partners is immense. >> But that doesn't just happen. I mean, what have you done to cultivate that community? >> Well, it's in Red Hat's DNA, right? To be the catalyst in a community, to bring partners and users together, to share their knowledge and their expertise and their skills, and to make the code open. So anybody can go grab Ansible from upstream and start doing stuff with it, if they want. If they want to mature on it and management for it and support all the other things that Red Hat provides, then they come to us for a subscription. So it's really been about sort of catalyzing and supporting that community, and Red Hat is a good steward of these upstream communities. >> Is Azure putting Ansible to use actually within your own platform as opposed to being a managed service? Are you adopting Ansible for automation of the Azure Platform? >> I'll let you answer that. >> So two years ago, Microsoft presented at AnsibleFest, our fall conference, Budd Warrack, I'm butchering his last name, but he came on and told how the networking team at Microsoft supports about 35,000 access points across hundreds of buildings, all the Microsoft campuses using Ansible to do that. Fantastic story if you want to go on YouTube and look up that use case. So Microsoft is an avid user of the Ansible technology in their environment. >> Azure is kind of this really, I mean, incredible strategic platform for Microsoft. I wonder if you could talk about Azure as a honeypot for partners. I mean, it seems, I mean, the momentum is unbelievable. I mean, I pay attention to their earnings calls every quarter of Azure growth, even though I don't know what the exact number is, 'cause they won't give it to me but they give me the growth rates and it's actually accelerating. >> No lie. (Tracie laughing) >> I've got my number. It's in the tens of billions. I mean, I'm north of 35 billion, but growing at the high 30%. I mean, it's remarkable. So talk about the importance of that to the ecosystem as a honey pot. >> Paul Satia said it right. Many times partners are essential to our strategy. But if you think about it, software solves problems. We have software that solves problems. They have software that solves problems, right? So when IT and customers are thinking of solving a problem, they're thinking software, right? And we want that software to run on Azure. So partners have to be essential to our strategy. Absolutely. It's again, we're one team to the customer. They want to see that as working together seamlessly. They don't want it to be hardware Azure plus software. So that's absolutely critical to our success. >> And if I could add for us, the partners are super important. So some of our launch partners are like F5 and CyberArk who have certified Ansible content for Ansible on Azure. We have service provider partners like Accenture and Kindra that are launching with us and providing our joint customers with help to get up to speed. So it really is a partner play. >> Absolutely. >> Where are you guys taking this? Where do you want to see it go? What are some of the things that observers should pay attention to as marketers of success and evolution? >> Well, certainly for us, it's obviously customer adoption, but it is providing them with patterns. So out of the box patterns that makes it easy for them to get up and running and solve the use cases and problems that they run into most frequently. Problems ain't the right word. Challenges or opportunities on Azure to be able to automate the things. So we're really leaning into the different use cases, whether it's edge, whether it's cloud, whether it's cloud to edge, all of those things. We want to provide users with out of the box Ansible content that allows 'em to just get up and automating super fast, and doing that on Azure makes it way easier for us because we don't have to focus on the install and the setting up and configuring it. It's all just part of the experience >> And Tracie, for Microsoft, it's world domination with a smile. (all laughing) >> Of course. No, of course not. No, I think it's to continue to grow the co-engineering we do across all of the Red Hat products. I can't even tell you the number of things we work on together, but to look forward strategically at what opportunities we have across our products and theirs to integrate like Arc and Ansible, and then making it all easy to buy, making it available so that customers have choice and they can buy how they want to and simplify. So we're just going to continue to do that and we're at that infancy right now and as we grow, it'll just get easier and easier with more and more products. >> Well, bringing the edge into the equation is going to be really interesting. Microsoft with its gaming, vector is amazing, and recent, awesome acquisitions. All the gamers are excited about that and that's a huge edge play. >> You'll have to bring my son on for that interview. >> Yeah. >> My son will interview. >> He knows more than all of us, I'm sure. What about Ansible? What's ahead for Ansible? >> Edge, so part of the Red Hat play at the Edge. We've getting a lot of customer pull for both industrial Edge use cases in the energy sector. We've had a joint customer with Azure that has a combined Edge platform. Certainly, the cloud stuff that we're announcing today is a huge growth area. And then just general enterprise automation. There's lots of room to run there for Ansible. >> And lots of industries, right? >> Yeah. >> Telco, manufacturing. >> Retail. >> Retail. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's so many places to go, yeah, that need the help. >> The market's just, how you going to count it anymore? It's just enormous. >> Yeah. >> It's the entire GDP the world. But guys, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Yeah. >> Great story. Congratulations on the partnership and the announcements and look forward to speaking with you in the future. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> You're very welcome. And keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gillin. This is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll be right back at Seaport in Boston. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi, everyone welcome back to theCUBE's main stage coverage of DockerCon 2022. We got a great guest from Intel here, Ajay Mungara Senior Director of Edge Software and AI at Intel talking about cloud native and AI workloads at The Edge and building a better developer ecosystem for The Edge which we all know those where the actions going cloud native, compute data, data as code. These are things we've been talking about, so Ajay, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. I'm really happy to be here in DockerCon and everything we do Docker makes it better. >> Well, you guys have done a lot in your career and looking at your background, The Edge was manufacturing the old school IOT stuff. Now that's converged completely in with cloud native IP technologies. Everything's kind of happening now at The Edge. This is where the problems are now shifting in solving because of the goodness of the cloud and what that's done for cloud operations which essentially distributed computing is making The Edge the battleground for where the innovation's happening. Could you just share with us your view of why The Edge is so important and why it's different than what we've been seeing in pure cloud on and on premise data centers? >> Yeah, you know 75% of the data that is getting generated of late is happening at The Edge. Okay, so there's a lot of value, there's a lot of value that's getting generated at The Edge because most of the compute we want to move it where closest to the data because of latency issues, bandwidth issues, security issues all of those things is getting people to move compute storage data towards more at The Edge. There's also one big shift from a developer point of view where 51% of all of the developers in the world have deployed in somewhere the other cloud native Docker based solutions out there, okay. What we are seeing is the combination of cloud computing, networking, edge computing all of that coming together. And that is where it is pushing the envelope from The Edge perspective. And one of the big drivers is AI at The Edge as well, right. The Edge inference workloads that is really happening with camera as one of the sensors is really driving that compute. And your question about what's so different about it. The challenges at The Edge are compounded because it's bringing together the operational technology, the information technology processes and cloud computing environments along with networking all together. So when a developer wants to build a solution for The Edge they have to figure out what part of that workload sits in the cloud, how they're going to move that workload towards The Edge using some form of networking. How are they going to protect the data in transport as well as at rest, because Edge devices can get stolen, you know. So there is all of these challenges about like how do you like figure out the trade offs between price, performance, functionality, power, heat, size, weight everything matters when you talk about The Edge. So anyway, that is why we see those differences. >> It's interesting you know you do a little go back in history and distribute computing, the movies still the same. Remember back in the day when I was breaking into the business memory was the bottleneck and storage was the resource. And you had to swap out memory, and as a developer you had to deal with that. Then memory became abundant and storage was the problem. Now you got networking is the latency problem. So again, these are a challenges that developers have to weave through, I was going to ask the question of why is The Edge important for the and what's in it for the developer, why should they care about The Edge? And I think what you were saying is there's design decisions going on around how to code, can you elaborate on what's in it for the developer? Why should they care about The Edge? >> Developers have to really care about The Edge is because when you are really building a solution you cannot move the data and make all the decisions at the cloud because it's late, right, sometimes latency, your bandwidth costs, your solution costs are going to get increased. And because of security and privacy concerns sometimes you have to make those decisions at The Edge itself. You will have to figure out only take the data strategically to the cloud where it makes sense, okay. And that is the reason why developers have no choice but they have to focus on the combination of cloud networking and edge, and that's where we are seeing a large scale set of deployments that are happening today. >> Yeah, and I can see the business value too which is one of the big themes that DockerCon this year is tracks on that people talking about that. Are you seeing trends like headless retail, which is basically, it's not Shopify managed service, it's more of you build your own stack and you put the head on there which is the application and business model. >> Right. >> So again, that's an example. There's also the manufacturing, there's automotive all kinds of use cases where there's money making opportunities, right. So there's business value there, so the developer's going to be pulled to The Edge 'cause they're in the front lines now. So this is about making The Edge ready, and I want to hear your thoughts on what Intel's doing to make that developer environment ready for The Edge because we know the developer on the front lines today and that front line vanguard will be The Edge. What's it look like? >> Exactly, right, so what we have done is we have created this environment for developers which we call it as IntelDevCloud. And in this dev cloud which is Kubernetes based environment where we support all of the Docker workloads and it's based off of Red Hat OpenShift. And we thought about this a little differently. What we did is it's a cloud environment where you could use a browser to do all of your development build test and all of that. But we also took a whole range of these edge devices and we made it available in the cloud. So as a developer, you don't have to have an edge device sitting at your desk. You have an edge device or a plethora of edge devices sitting in the cloud. So you have one environment where you have cloud, you have network, and you have all these edge nodes. So you could start building your solution, you could start building your cloud native or edge native solutions, test it, benchmark it, and figure out how and what type of combination that you actually need for your final solution as you said in retail, in smart cities, in healthcare, any of these vertical markets and get your solution closer to being a deployment ready. >> Yeah, and I love your description by the way it's called a container playground. I mean, it's just comes across as fun. And I think this idea of having these nodes available you guys bring a lot of expertise at the table. That's almost like your local host for Edge devices, right? You can work with it in a safe environment, am I getting that right. >> You're getting that right, and in fact, during the pandemic when we are all working remote, right, nobody has access to these labs where you have all these Edge devices available to you, you could actually play with all these network simulators everything. Now with dev all these developers spread all over the world, you don't have access to as many of those edge devices. So now with browser, with this container playground, you could develop any of your Docker composed, Docker based container workloads and try it on all of these edge devices which may range from an Intel's point of view, CPUs, VPUs, GPUS, anything, right. >> We know there's a lot of compute at The Edge which always ever helps in Intel but your north star is about making it easier for the developers as you guys invest cloud network and The Edge and the cloud native world, that's the goal. How do you do that? And what should the developers optimize for it sounds like they're going to learn with this playground that you have the dev cloud. What are you seeing that they're going to learn to optimize for? Is it like I use the oldest school example of memory optimization, swapping memory out and that kind of thing but what's the new issues that need to be optimized for your developer. >> If you're a developer you got to optimize for your edge AI workloads, right, so that means AI inference workloads. You have to look at like saying that how can I take like a model that is developed in a some type of a cloud environment, like a TensorFlow model or a Pieto model, bring it down to The Edge. And then you have to do inference workloads. You need to understand to do this inference, what type of compute you need, what type of storage do you need? What type of memory do you need? And we give you those options where you could optimize those type of inference AI, inference workloads, you could actually do that. Then you also can decide like what type of decisions you want to make at The Edge what decisions you want to make at the cloud. We give you those options and flexibility for you to build those solutions. >> Great. >> One last point I'll make is there's a lot of legacy applications that have been developed which is traditional embedded applications. We are also want to teach developers how to take these applications and containerize them. How to take advantage of the cloud native DevOps type of paradigms that it would make your life easier when it comes to scaling your solution, deploying your solution worldwide. >> All right, Ajay, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE DevCloud, a container playground. Now back to you at the main stage at DockerCon. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back at AWS re:Invent 2021. It's the biggest hybrid event of the year. One of the few physical events and we're psyched to be here. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm really pleased to bring back the host emeritus, Stu Miniman, somebody I worked with side-by-side, Stu, for 10 years in a setting much like this, many like this. So, good to have you back. >> Dave, it's great to be here with theCUBE team, family here and re:Invent, Dave. I mean, this show, I remember back, Dave, going to you after the first re:Invent we talked, we were like, "We got to be there." Dave, remember the first year we came, the second year of re:Invent, this is the 10th year now, little card tables, gaming companies, all this stuff. You had Jerry Chen on yesterday and Jerry was comparing like, this is going to be like the next Microsoft. And we bet heavy on this ecosystem. And yeah, we all think this cloud thing, it might be real. 20,000 people here, it's not the 50 or 75,000 that we had in like 2018, 2019, but this ecosystem, what's happening in the cloud, multiple versions of hybrid going on with the event and the services, but yeah, phenomenal stuff. And yeah, it's so nice to see people. >> That's for sure. It's something that we've talked about a lot over the years is, and you remember the early days of re:Invent and to this day, just very a strong developer affinity that AWS has done a tremendous job of building that up and it's their raison d'etre, it's how they approach the market. But now you've been at Red Hat for a bit, obviously as well, developer affinity, what have you learned? Specifically as it relates to the cloud, Kubernetes, hottest thing going, you don't want to do an OpenShift commercial, but it's there, you're in the middle of that mix. What have you learned generally? >> Well, Dave, to the comment that you made about developers here, it's developers and the enterprise. We used to have a joke and say, enterprise developer is an oxymoron, but that line between developers doing stuff, early as a cloud, it was stealth computing. It's they're often doing this stuff and central IT is not managing it. So how do the pieces come together? How do apps and infrastructure, how do those pieces come together? And it's something that Red Hat has been doing a long time. Think about the Linux developer. They might've not have been the app developers, the people building Linux and everything, but they had a decent close tie to it. I'm on the OpenShift team. What we do is cloud, Dave, and we've got a partnership here with Amazon. We GAed our native cloud service earlier this year. Andy Jassy helped name it. It is the beautifully named Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS or ROSA. But we've done OpenShift on AWS for more than five years, basically since we were doing Kubernetes, it's been here because of course customers doing cloud, where are they? A lot of them are here in Amazon. So I've been loving talking to a lot of customers, understanding how enterprise adoption is increasing, how we can enable developers and help them move faster. And yeah, I mean the quick plug on OpenShift is our service. We've got an SRE team that is going to manage all of that. A friend of the program, Corey Quinn, says, "Hey, an SRE team like that, because you don't want to manage as an enterprise." You don't want to manage Kubernetes. Yeah, you need to understand some of the pieces, but what is important to your business is the applications, your data and all those things and managing the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That's one of the reasons you went to the cloud. So therefore changing your model as to how you consume services in the cloud. And what are we seeing with Amazon, Dave? They're trying to build more solutions, simplify deployments, and offer more solutions including with their ecosystem. >> So I want to ask you. You said enterprise developer is kind of an oxymoron, and I remember, years ago I used to hang around with a lot of heads of application development and insurance companies and financial services, pharmaceutical, and they didn't wear hoodies, but they didn't wear suits either. And then when I talked to guys like Jeff Clark, for instance. He talks about we're building an abstraction layer across clouds, blah, blah, blah, which by the way, I think it is the right strategy. I'm like, "Okay, I'll drink some of that Kool-Aid." And then when I come here, we talked to Adam Selipsky. John flew out and I was on the chime. He goes, "Yeah, that's not hybrid. No, this is nothing like, it's not AWS, AWS is cloud." So, square that circle for me, 'cause you're in both worlds and certainly your strategy is to connect those words. Is that cloud? >> Yeah, right. I mean, Dave, we spent years talking about like is private cloud really a cloud? And when we started coming to the show, there is only one cloud. It is the public cloud and Amazon is the paragon of, I don't know what it was. >> Dave: Fake clouds, cloud washing. >> So today, Amazon's putting lots of things into your data center and extending the cloud out to that environment. >> So that's cloud. >> That's cloud. >> What do we call that cloud? What about the reverse? >> What's happening at the edge is that cloud is that extension of what we said from Amazon. If you look at not only Outpost, but Wavelengths and Local Zones and everything else like that. >> Let's say, yes, that's cloud. The APIs, primitives, check. >> Dave, I've always thought cloud is an operating model, not a location. And the hybrid definition is not the old, I did an ebook on this, Dave earlier this year. It's not the decade old NIS definition of an application that spans because I don't get up in the morning as an enterprise and say, "Oh, let me look at the table of how much Google is charging me or Microsoft or Amazon," or wake up one morning and move from one cloud to the other. Portability, follow the sun type stuff, does it ever happen? Yes, but it is rare thing. Applications oftentimes get pulled apart. So we've seen if you talk about AI, training the cloud, then transact and do things at the edge. If I'm in an autonomous vehicle or in a geosynchronous satellite, I can't be going back to the cloud to process stuff. So I get what I need and I process there. The same thing hybrid, oftentimes I will do my transactional activity in the public cloud because I've got unlimited compute capability, but I might have my repository of data for many different reasons, governance or security, all these things in my own data center. So parts of an application might live there, but I don't just span to go between the public cloud in my data center or the edge, it's specific architectural decisions as to how we do this. And by the way the developer, they don't want to have to think about location. I mean, my background, servers, storage, virtualization, all that stuff, that was very much an infrastructure up look of things. Developers want to worry about their code and make sure that it works in production. >> Okay, let me test that. If it's in the AWS cloud and I think it's true for the other hyperscale clouds too, they don't have to think about location, but they still have to think about location on-prem, don't they? >> Well, Dave, even in a public cloud, you do need to worry about sometimes it's like, "Okay, do I split it between availability zones? How do I build that? How do I do that?" So there are things that we build on top of it. So we've seen Amazon. >> I think that's fair, data sovereignty, you have to think about okay. >> Absolutely, a lot of those things. >> Okay, but the experience in Germany is going to be the same as it is in DC, is it not? >> More or less? There are some differences we'll see off and Amazon will roll things out over time and what's available, you've got cloud. >> For sure, though that's definitely true. That's a maturity thing, right? You've talked a bit, but ultimately they all sort of catch up. I guess my question would be is the delta between, let's say, Fed adoption and East Coast, is that delta narrower, significantly narrow than what you might see on-prem? >> The services are the same, sometimes for financial or political things, there might be some slight differences, but yes, the cloud experience should be the same everywhere from Amazon. >> Is it from a standpoint of hybrid, on-prem to cloud, across cloud? >> Many of the things when they go outside of the Amazon data centers are limited or a little bit different or you might have latency considerations that you have to consider. >> Now it's a tug of war. >> So it's not totally seamless because, David Foyer would tell us there, "You're not going to fight physics." There are certain things that we need to have and we've changed the way we architect things because it's no longer the bottleneck of the local scuzzy connection that you have there, it is now (indistinct). >> But the point I'm making is that gets into a tug of war of "Our way is better than your way." And the answer is depends in terms of your workload and the use case. >> You've looked at some of these new databases that span globes and do things of the like. >> Another question, I don't know if you saw the Goldman Sachs deal this morning, Goldman Sachs is basically turning its business into a SaaS and pointing it to their hedge funds and allowing people to access their data, their tools, their software that they built for their own purposes. And now they're outselling it. Similar to what NASDAQ has done. I can't imagine doing that without containers. >> Yeah, so interesting point, I think. At least six years ago now, Amazon launched serverless and serverless was going to take over the world. I dug into the space for a couple of years. And you had the serverless with camp and you had the container camp. Last year at re:Invent, I really felt a shift from Amazon's positioning that many of the abstraction layers and the tools that help you support those environments will now span between Lambda and containers. The container world has been adding serverless functionality. So Amazon does Fargate. The open-source community uses something called Knative, and just breaking this week. Knative was a project that Google started and it looks like that is going to move over to the CNCF. So be part of the whole Kubernetes ecosystem and everything like that. Oracle, VMware, IBM, Red Hat, all heavily involved in Knative, and we're all excited to see that go into the CNCF. So the reason I say that, I've seen from Amazon, I actually, John and I, when we interviewed Andy Jassy back in 2017, I asked him a follow-up question because he said if he was to build AWS in 2017, "I would start with everything underneath it serverless." I would wonder if following up with Adam or Andy today, I'd said, "Would it be all serverless or would containers be a piece of it?" Because sometimes underneath it doesn't matter or sometimes it can be containers and serverless. It's a single unit in Amazon and when they position things, it's now that spectrum of unit, everything from the serverless through the containers, through... James Hamilton wrote a blog post today about running Xen-on-Nitro and they have a migration service for a mainframe. So what do we know? That one of the only things about IT is almost nothing ever goes away. I mean, it sounded like Amazon declared coming soon the end of life of mainframe. My friends over at IBM might not be quite ready to call that era over but we shall see. All these things take time. Everything in IT is additive. I'm happy to see. It is very much usually an end world when I look at the container and Kubernetes space. That is something that you can have a broad spectrum of applications. So some of my more monolithic applications can move over, my cool new data, AI things, I can build on it, microservices in between. And so, it's a broad platform that spans the cloud, the edge, the data center. So that cloud operating model is easier to have consistency all the places that I go. >> Mainframe is in the cloud. Well, we'll see. Big banks by the next site unseen. So I think Amazon will be able to eat away at the edges of that, but I don't think there's going to be a major migration. They claim it. Their big thing is that you can't get COBOL programmers. So I'm like, "Yeah, call DXC, you'll get plenty." Let's talk about something more interesting. (Stu laughs softly) So the last 10 years was a lot of, a lot about IT transformation and there was a lot more room to grow there. I mean, the four big hyperscalers are going to do 120 billion this year. They're growing at 35%. Maybe it's not a trillion, but there's a $500 billion market that they're going after, maybe more. It looks like there's a real move. You saw that with NASDAQ, the Goldman deal, to really drive into business, deeper business integration in addition to IT transformation. So how do you see the next decade of cloud? What should we be watching? >> So, one of the interesting trends, I mean, Dave, for years we covered big data and big data felt very horizontal in it's approach thing. Hadoop take over the world. When I look at AI solutions, when I look at the edge computing technologies that happen, they're very vertically driven. So, our early customers in edge adoption tend to be like telco with the 5G rollout manufacturing in some of their environments. AI, every single industry has a whole set of use cases that they're using that go very deep. So I think cloud computing goes from, we talked about infrastructure as a service to it needs to be more, it is solution, some of these pieces go together. When Adam got up on stage and talked about how many instance types they have on Amazon, Dave, it's got to be 2X or 4X more different instant types than if I went to go to HPE or Dell and buy a physical server for my environment. So we need to have areas and guidance and blueprints and heck, use some of that ML and AI to help drive people to the right solutions because we definitely have the paradox of choice today. So I think you will find some gravity moving towards some of these environments. Gravatar has been really interesting to watch. Obviously that Annapurna acquisition should be down as one of the biggest ones in the cloud era. >> No lack of optionality to your point. So I guess to the point of deeper business integration, that's the big question, will Amazon provide more solution abstractions? They certainly do with Connect. We didn't hear a ton of that this show. >> Interestingly. (Dave speaking indistinctly) So the article that you and John Furrier wrote after meeting with Adam, the thing that caught my eye is discussion of community and ecosystems. And one of the things coming after, some, big communities out there like, you and I lived through the VMware ecosystem in that very tight community. There are forming little areas of community here in this group, but it's not a single cloud community. There are those focus areas that they have. And I do love to see, I mean, obviously working for Red Hat, talking about the ecosystem support. I was very happy to hear Adam mention Red Hat in the keynote as one of the key hybrid partners there. So, for Amazon to get from the 60 million, the 60 billion to the trillion dollar mark down the road, it's going to take a village and we're happy to be a part of it. >> Hey, great to have you back, enjoy the rest of the show. This is, let's see, day three, we're wrapping up. We're here again tomorrow so check it out. Special thanks to obviously AWS is our anchor sponsor and of course, AMD for sponsoring the editorial segments of our event. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. See you tomorrow. (bright upbeat music)

>>Welcome back. You're watching the cubes coverage of AWS 2021. We're here in the Venetian, formerly the sands convention center in Las Vegas. My name is Dave Volante. Really excited to have Bob bright tell here. He's the director of SAP global alliances at IBM and Manu.. I'm going to try that again. Pro boxcar, is that correct? Rebecca Head of Linux and IBM alliances at AWS Manu. I'm sorry for bashing your name, but at least I got it right, guys. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>And I'm actually now AWS partnership. I had SAP before, so it's great. I first, my first reinvest, >>I have a old DNA title. That's great. That's why I was asking you about Philly before you don't have the accent though. Bob, >>I'm not a Philly native, so cowboy >>Because you have the SAP connection there. IBM, AWS. It's like, whoa, what's going on here? >>Well, maybe I'll start and then have my new, my new, make some comments. And I'll just start by just, uh, we're real excited to be here. IBM's a diamond sponsor at, at re-invent and it's great to be in person and really appreciate AWS being able to put this event on this week and get us back in person. It really makes a difference. And I know there's a lot of people virtually as well, but, um, IBM and AWS have worked together for a number of years. Uh, maybe we could characterize it more opportunistically, um, prior, but in the last 12, 18 months, I think there's been a lot of developments that have really made us come together strategically as partners. I know we'll talk a little bit about red hat during the course of the conversation, but with IBM's >>You say opportunities like you mean in the field and the more strategic >>Relationship or strategic and with IBM's open hybrid cloud strategy. And, uh, with so many of our clients preferring AWS is their cloud. Um, we are working together now to meet clients where they're at to help them get the value of the cloud. And we're talking a little bit about coming out of the pandemic before this. Um, and one of the things that we're seeing with our clients that IBM is a lot of that low hanging fruit. The cloud was achieved, maybe the lift and shift or doing some SAS based applications, but now it's even more important to rapidly adopt hybrid cloud and cloud technologies to provide your business with flexible innovation transformation, all of those things. So that's why it has been important for us to, to partner with AWS strategically. Um, our clients are telling us that when they do move those heavier workloads to the cloud and do it in a hybrid model, they see about two and a half times the value. >>So with that, our partnership is multi-dimensional, we're doing a lot with IBM consulting. My new we'll talk a little bit about IBM software and red hat. Just one example, Dave, with IBM consulting, we now are up to almost 10,000 certifications and 10 plus AWS competencies. So that competency chart that shows we're knocking them all out on the, on the checkerboard there to get them to IBM consulting competencies. And we just had the energy one announced this week. So IBM consulting is in area software's big too. In my news, been helping us with that part of the partner. >>Well, it's, you know, to your point, you can't pick whatever cliche you want. You can't fight fashion. The trend is your friend. You have a lot of, a lot of people want to be on AWS. So rather than fighting, oh, we have our own cloud. No, you've got to meet customers where they are, right >>David, this is where this takes us. You know, the analogy we use between Bob and I, IBM boss spoke about IBM consulting, which we know has been a strategic partnership for the last two, two and a half years. I think I'm going to share the best kept secret in the cloud phase right now. IBM software and AWS now are working together. The analogy we use is IBM software and AWS. I like peanut butter and jelly better together. And over the last 12 months, the two companies have accelerated working together around three key dimensions. Number one, around product, number two around making sure our customers, joint customers successful. And number three, around building a robust ecosystem of partners. One thing that we have realized is just helping customers modernize. Migrate is challenging. And on the product side, now we have about 15 products on AWS marketplace. >>I think about trusty or verify insecurity, cloud Pak for data, uh, uh, Cognos data DataStage over the next 12 months, we plan to land all of the cloud packs. These are containerized version of IBM software on AWS and the marketplace. In addition, many of our customers are now using the managed red hat, OpenShift servers. We launched it earlier in April. This year, we are seeing tremendous customer feedback, tremendous, uh, growth there that is also informing that customers really like the open shirt model managed services one-click deployment. And so our goal is over the next 12 months, launched many more IBM software as a managed service offering. So that's kind of like what we're doing on the product side, on the customer success. A great example is somebody is helping a big oil and gas customers managed with this energy transition that we're working through. Um, Schlumberger software around simulation runs on OpenShift on Amazon in a hybrid environment, especially critical as we have a lot of oil and gas data that needs to have maybe sit on premises, uh, because of data residency requirements. >>I think the third piece is around building an ecosystem of partners for our red hat OpenShift services, which we launched April. We already have 30 partners that are helping customers not only to modernize, but to migrate on AWS. We know modernization is challenging, moving to containers is difficult. So we need this robust ecosystem of partners and Bob and I, and you know, the IBM and AWS team are investing heavily. We have cash credit to do financial incentives plus also technical content so that our customers so that our partners can help customers to be successful. Yeah, >>So the cloud packs are cool. That makes a lot of sense. And now the acquisition of red hat makes it easier. It's a catalyst gets IBM, much more closely aligned to developers and it makes it easier for things like cloud packs to be migrated to the cloud and being running cloud native. How did that acquisition affect from your standpoint menu and Bob I'd love your thoughts and your relationship. >>The red hat acquisition by IBM is a net positive red hat. And AWS have been working together for 14 years now. And we have tens of thousands of customers that are running mission critical workloads, such as SAP, Oracle databases. And there's a lot of trust that is engendered by working in the field for 14 years, uh, supporting mission critical customers, mission critical workloads. And so that relationship has provided a lot of tailwinds to our partnership with IBM software. I think a lot of the stuff we spoke about a lot of the progress you've made in the last six to eight to 12 months, a big function is that the trust that we have engendered working together with red hat. >>Yeah. I'll add Dave that, um, I, I agree with my new comments on the red hat. Red hat really is the epitome of openness right. Of open source software and the history that Manu described with AWS, there has been excellent adoption of red hat on AWS, red hat, enterprise Linux, and then most recently, um, red hat OpenShift on AWS. And just to give another example to the ecosystem point, just this morning, red hat with IBM, with a major ISV named Solonus announced that Solonus will be running one of their key, uh, applications and releasing it on Rossa on AWS. And all this means for our clients is faster adoption and acceleration and being able to innovate, um, in a hybrid way. So that's really the value that red hat is helping, um, to bring to the table in our cloud packs are available on open shift and rose as an option as well. So we're excited about the red hat partnership. It's really essential to our partnership into our, our hybrid cloud strategy. >>You mentioned up front, you know, happy that AWS decided to have this show. Of course, a lot of people watching online and you can get massive scale online, but there's nothing like the live event, you know, and when you make announcements at a live event, there's a little buzz going on and you get feedback. So are you making any hard news here? What, what announcements can you >>Share? Yeah, well, the one we had, um, on, um, uh, Solonus earlier with red hat and to do roasts on top of red hat was one and there's just an advance of, um, of re-invent. Um, we announced something in the data and AI space. So that's another big area of our partnership is data and AI. So we're in, we announced that in the oil industry and in the, um, uh, in that area that we are partnering together with AWS to be able to get insights on data so that we could get clean and reusable energy solutions out there. And there's so much untapped data. We know data is such an important resource, that that's an area that we're going to partner on with our cloud Pak for data on AWS. And of course underlying everything is open shifts. So that's one big announcement. We're also doing a lot in security for IBM and my news has been working closely with this. So my new, I, I know you're close to the integrations we're doing with AWS. So I'll let you comment maybe on some of the things in security. >>I mean, everybody's a security company these days, right? I mean, >>And then we continue to work and making sure that a lot of the IBM security products are integrating with our native services. So the customers have a seamless experience. And as he you'll see a lot of the same investments happening over 2022 as we grow the >>Partnership. So what like a QRadar or something like that >>Are, for example, integrating with security hub. That would be great example. >>I mean, it's the, it's the number one topic for CEO's that has been for a while and still will be okay. So give us a little roadmap, you know, maybe Bob, you could start, where do you want to see this relationship go? Um, what can we expect in the, in the coming 12 months? Yeah, well, >>Again, we're super excited about our partnership with AWS. I think we're just scratching the surface of how we're going to add value to our clients on this, on this hybrid cloud journey that they're all going through. And IBM, and this has been in our financial reports and in our earnings and everything, we're investing over a billion dollars in the ecosystem. And so partners like AWS are critical to provide that platform of growth for our clients and innovation for our clients. So all of the things that I talked about in money talked about today, whether it be our IBM consulting capabilities or our IBM software, our red hat, we're going to continue to invest. We talked about the red hat acquisition. IBM has made a few other acquisitions that help drive this partnership and drive value to our clients for adoption, from Instana to Turbonomic X, to some really innovative cloud consulting companies like Knorr cloud in towels. So we're going to continue to make investments. And I think we're just on the tip of the iceberg and we invite everybody at re-invent, either in person, which is exciting or virtually to learn more about our partnership and how we can help you and my new, any additional comments to that. >>Thanks, Bob V have a golden child hair with red hat OpenShift on Amazon. That'd be launched in April. We are seeing tremendous customer adoption. So we suspect that in next year, we'll continue to see solid adoption around red hat OpenShift. That VocaliD is also informing how customers want a more native experience for IBM software on AWS. And so we, um, we are targeting to, to launch many more IBM software in a native format on edema. So that would be the big team for next year. Uh, in addition, again, I'll call to action to our partner community. There's a huge opportunity to help our joint customers to modernize and migrate on AWS via both IBM, AWS are leaning in, we have cash credit to give financial incentives to partners, to help our customers, to migrate and modernize as well as we are also creating a lot of technical content that is not freely available so that a lot of our partners can start this. IBM focus on AWS practice >>Guys. Thanks so much for coming on the cube. Congratulations, and look at, you know, I often say the next 10 years is not going to be like the last 10 years. The cloud is expanding is a really good example. So thank you for your time. Appreciate your time. All right. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage at AWS reinvent 2021

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCube's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube, wall-to-wall coverage in-person and hybrid. The two great guests here, Manu Parbhakar, worldwide Leader, Linux and IBM Software Partnership at AWS, and Mike Evans, Vice President of Technical Business Development at Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCube. Love this conversation, bringing Red Hat and AWS together. Two great companies, great technologies. It really is about software in the cloud, Cloud-Scale. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> So get us into the partnership. Okay. This is super important. Red Hat, well known open source as cloud needs to become clear, doing an amazing work. Amazon, Cloud-Scale, Data is a big part of it. Modern software. Tell us about the partnership. >> Thanks John. Super excited to share about our partnership. As we have been partnering for almost 14 years together. We started in the very early days of AWS. And now we have tens of thousands of customers that are running RHEL on EC2. If you look at over the last three years, the pace of innovation for our joint partnership has only increased. It has manifested in three key formats. The first one is the pace at which RHEL supports new EC2 instances like Arm, Graviton. You know, think a lot of features like Nitro. The second is just the portfolio of new RHEL offerings that we have launched over the last three years. We started with RHEL for sequel, RHEL high availability, RHEL for SAP, and then only last month, we've launched the support for knowledge base for RHEL customers. Mike, you want to talk about what you're doing with OpenShift and Ansible as well? >> Yeah, it's good to be here. It's fascinating to me cause I've been at Red Hat for 21 years now. And vividly remember the start of working with AWS back in 2008, when the cloud was kind of a wild idea with a whole bunch of doubters. And it's been an interesting time, but I feel the next 14 years are going to be exciting in a different way. We now have a very large customer base from almost every industry in the world built on RHEL, and running on AWS. And our goal now is to continue to add additional elements to our offerings, to build upon that and extend it. The largest addition which we're going to be talking a lot about here at the re:Invent show was the partnership in April this year when we launched the Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS as a managed version of OpenShift for containers based workloads. And we're seeing a lot of the customers that have standardized on RHEL on EC2, or ones that are using OpenShift on-premise deployments, as the early adopters of ROSA, but we're also seeing a huge number of new customers who never purchased anything from Red Hat. So, in addition to the customers, we're getting great feedback from systems integrators and ISV partners who are looking to have a software application run both on-premise and in AWS, and with OpenShift being one of the pioneers in enabling both container and harnessing Kubernetes where ROSA is just a really exciting area for us to track and continue to advance together with AWS. >> It's very interesting. Before I get to ROSA, I want to just get the update on Red Hat and IBM, obviously the acquisition part of IBM, how is that impacting the partnership? You can just quickly touch on that. >> Sure. I'll start off and, I mean, Red Hat went from a company that was about 15,000 employees competing with a lot of really large technology companies and we added more than 100,000 field oriented people when IBM acquired Red Hat to help magnify the Red Hat solutions, and the global scale and coverage of IBM is incredible. I like to give two simple examples of people. One is, I remember our salesforce in EMEA telling me they got a $4 million order from a country in Africa theydidn't even know existed. And IBM had 100 people in it, or AT&T is one of Red Hat's largest accounts, and I think at one point we had seven full-time people on it and AT&T is one of IBM's largest accounts and they had two seven storey buildings full of people working with AT&T. So RHELative to AWS, we now also see IBM embracing AWS more with both software, and services, in the magnification of Red Hat based solutions, combined with that embrace should be, create some great growth. And I think IBM is pretty excited about being able to sell Red Hat software as well. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> And Manu I think you have, yeah. >> Yeah. I think there's also, it is definitely very positive John. >> Yeah. >> You know, just the joint work that Red Hat and AWS have done for the last 14 years, working in the trenches supporting our end customers is now also providing lot of Tailwinds for the IBM software partnership. We have done some incredible work over the last 12 months around three broad categories. The first one is around product, what we're doing around customer success, and then what we're doing around sales and marketing. So on the product side, we have listed about 15 products on Marketplace over the course of the last 12 to 15 months. And our goal is to launch all of the IBM Cloud Paks. These are containerized versions of IBM software on Marketplace by the first half of next year. The other feedback that we are getting from our customers is that, hey, we love IBM software running at Amazon, but we like to have a cloud native SaaS version of the software. So there's a lot of work that's going on right now, to make sure that many of these offerings are available in a cloud-native manner. And you're not talking with Db2 Cognos, Maximo, (indistinct), on EC2. The second thing that we're doing is making sure that many of these large enterprise customers are running IBM software, are successful. So our technical teams are attached to the hip, working on the ground floor in making customers like Delta successful in running IBM software on them. I think the third piece around sales and marketing just filing up a vibrant ecosystem, rather how do we modernize and migrate this IBM software on Cloud Paks on AWS? So there's a huge push going on here. So (indistinct), you know, the Red Hat partnership is providing a lot of Tailwinds to accelerate our partnership with IBM software. >> You know, I always, I've been saying all this year in Red Hat summit, as well as Ansible Fest that, distributed computing is coming to large scale. And that's really the, what's happening. I mean, you looking at what you guys are doing cause it's amazing. ROSA Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, very notable to use the term on AWS, which actually means something in the partnership as we learned over the years. How is that going Mike because you launched on theCube in April, ROSA, it had great traction going in. It's in the Marketplace. You've got some integration. It's really a hand in glove situation with Cloud-Scale. Take us through what's the update? >> Yeah, let me, let me let Manu speak first to his AWS view and then I'll add the Red Hat picture. >> Thanks Mike. John for ROSA is part of an entire container portfolio. So if you look at it, so we have ECS, EKS, the managed Kubernetes service. We have the serverless containers with Fargate. We launched ECS case anywhere. And then ROSA is part of an entire portfolio of container services. As you know, two thirds of all container workloads run on AWS. And a big function of that is because we (indistinct) from our customer and then sold them what the requirements are. There are two sets of key customers that are driving the demand and the early adoption of ROSA. The first set of customers that have standardized on OpenShift on-premises. They love the fact that everything that comes out of the box and they would love to use it on Arm. So that's the first (indistinct). The second set of customers are, you know, the large RHEL users on EC2. The tens of thousands of customers that we've talked about that want to move from VM to containers, and want to do DevOps. So it's this set of two customers that are informing our roadmap, as well as our investments around ROSA. We are seeing solid adoption, both in terms of adoption by a customer, as well as the partners and helping, and how our partners are helping our customers in modernizing from VMs to containers. So it's a, it's a huge, it's a huge priority for our container service. And over the next few years, we continue to see, to increase our investment on the product road map here. >> Yeah, from my perspective, first off at the high level in mind, my one of the most interesting parts of ROSA is being integrated in the AWS console and not just for the, you know, where it shows up on the screen, but also all the work behind what that took to get there and why we did it. And we did it because customers were asking both of us, we're saying, look, OpenShift is a platform. We're going to be building and deploying serious applications at incredible scale on it. And it's really got to have joint high-quality support, joint high-quality engineering. It's got to be rock solid. And so we came to agreement with AWS. That was the best way to do that, was to build it in the console, you know, integrated in, into the core of an AWS engineering team with Red Hat engineers, Arm and Arms. So that's, that's a very unique service and it's not like a high level SaaS application that runs above everything, it's down in the bowels and, and really is, needs to be rock solid. So we're seeing, we're seeing great interest, both from end users, as I mentioned, existing customers, new customers, the partner base, you know, how the systems integrators are coming on board. There's lots of business and money to be made in modernizing applications as well as building new cloud native applications. People can, you know, between Red Hat and AWS, we've got some, some models around supporting POCs and customer migrations. We've got some joint investments. it's a really ripe area. >> Yeah. That's good stuff. Real quick. what do you think of ROSA versus EKS and ECS? What's, how should people think about that Mike? (indistinct) >> You got to go for it Manu. Your job is to position all these (indistinct). (indistinct) >> John, ROSA is part of our container portfolio services along with EKS, ECS, Fargate, and any (indistinct) services that we just launched earlier this year. There are, you know, set of customers both that are running OpenShift on-premises that are standardized on ROSA. And then there are large set of RHEL customers that are running RHEL on EC2, that want to use the ROSA service. So, you know, both AWS and Red Hat are now continuing to invest in accelerating the roadmap of the service on our platform. You know, we are working on improving the console experience. Also one of the things we just launched recently is the Amazon controller to Kubernetes, or what , you know, service operators for S3. So over the next few years you will see, you know, significant investment from both Red Hat and AWS in this joint service. And this is an integral part of our overall container portfolio. >> And great stuff to get in the console. That's great, great integration. That's the future. I got to ask about the graviton instances. It's been one of the most biggest success stories, I think we believe in Amazon history in the acquisition of Annapurna, has really created great differentiation. And anyone who's in the software knows if you have good chips powering apps, they go faster. And if the chips are good, they're less expensive. And that's the innovation. We saw that RHEL now supports graviton instances. Tell us more about the Red Hat strategy with graviton and Arms specifically, has that impact your (indistinct) development, and what does it mean for customers? >> Sure. Yeah, it's pretty, it's a pretty fascinating area for me. As I said, I've been a Red Hat for 21 years and my job is actually looking at new markets and new technologies now for Red Hat and work with our largest partners. So, I've been tracking the Arm dynamics for awhile, and we've been working with AWS for over two years, supporting graviton. And it's, I'm seeing more enthusiasm now in terms of developers and, especially for very horizontal, large scale applications. And we're excited to be working with AWS directly on it. And I think it's going to be a fascinating next two years on Arm, personally. >> Many of the specialized processors for training and instances, all that stuff, can be applied to web services and automation like cloud native services, right? Is that, it sounds like a good direction. Take us through that. >> John, on our partnership with Red Hat, we are continuing to iterate, as Mike mentioned, the stuff that we've done around graviton, both the last two years is pretty incredible. And the pace at which we are innovating is improving. Around the (indistinct) and the inferential instances, we are continuing to work with Red Hat and, you know, the support for RHEL should come shortly, very soon. >> Well, my prediction is that the graviton success was going to be applied to every single category. You can get that kind of innovation with this on the software side, just really kind of just, that's the magical, that's the, that's the proven form of software, right? We've been there. Good software powering with some great performance. Manu, Mike, thank you for coming on and sharing the, the news and the partnership update. Congratulations on the partnership. Really good. Thank you. >> Excellent John. Incredible (indistinct). >> Yeah, this is the future software as we see, it's all coming together. Here on theCube, we're bringing all the action, software being powered by chips, is theCube coverage of AWS re:invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. In this segment, we're going to be talking about Red Hat and the AWS evolving partnership. A great segment, really talking about how Hybrid and the Enterprise are evolving, certainly multicloud and the horizon. But a lot of benefits in the cloud, we've been covering on theCUBE and on SiliconANGLE with Red Hat for the past year. Very relevant. We've got Gunnar Hellekson, GM of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, And Joe Fernandes, VP and GM of the Hybrid Platforms, both of Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So, you know, me, I'm a fan boy of Red Hat. So I always say, you guys made all the right investments, OpenShift, all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully. And I think, you know, with Amazon's re:Invent, you're seeing the themes all play out. Modern application stack, you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolve, you've got 5G in the Edge, workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with Cloud Scale. So everything has been going down to Hybrid and Enterprise grade level discussions. This is in the Wheelhouse of Red Hat. So I want to congratulate you. But what's your reaction? What do you guys see this year at re:Invent? What's the top story? >> I can start. >> Who wants to start with first? >> Sure, I mean, clearly, AWS itself is huge. But as you mentioned, the world is Hybrid, right, so customers are running still in their data center, in the Amazon Public Cloud across multiple Public Clouds and out to the Edge and bring in more and more workloads. So it's not just the applications, analytics. It's AI, it's machine learning. And so, yeah, we can expect to see more discussion around that, more great examples of customer use cases. And as you mentioned, Red Hat has been right in the middle of this for some time John. >> You guys also had some success with the fully managed OpenShift service called ROSA, R-O-S-A, which is Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, another acronym, but really this is about what the customers are looking for. Can you take us through an update on OpenShift on AWS, because the combination of managed services in the cloud, refactoring applications, but working on-premises is a big deal. Take us through why that's so important. >> Yeah, so, we've had customers running OpenShift on AWS for a long time, right? So whether it's our software-based offerings where customers deploy OpenShift themselves, or our fully managed cloud service. We've had cloud services on AWS for over five years. What ROSA brings or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS is a jointly managed service, right? So we're working in partnership with Amazon, with AWS to make OpenShift available as a jointly-managed service offering. It's a native AWS service offering. You can get it right through the AWS console. You can leverage your AWS committed spend. But, most importantly, you know, it's something that we're working on together. Bringing new customers to the table for both Red Hat and AWS. And we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and really helping them drive that Hybrid strategy that we talked about. >> Gunnar, you know what I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things that I love about this market right now is open-source continues to be amazing, continues to drive more value, and there's new migration of talent coming in. The numbers are just continuing to grow and grow. But the importance of Red Hat's history with AWS is pretty significant. I mean, Red Hat pioneered Open-source and it's been involved with AWS from the early days. Can you take us through a little bit of history for the folks that may not know Red Hat's partnership with AWS? >> Yeah. I mean, we've been collaborating with AWS since 2008. So for over a decade we've been working together, and what's made the partnership work is that we have a common interest in making sure that customers have a consistent approachable experience. Whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud. Nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great advantages of the cloud. And, so being able to use something like Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive. So, that's where the partnership started. And since then we've had the ability to better integrate with native AWS services. And one thing I want to point out is that, a lot of these integrations are kind of technical. It's not just about technical consistency across these platforms, it's also about operational consistency and business concerns. And when you're moving into an Open Hybrid Cloud kind of a situation, that's what becomes important, right? You don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms. You want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other. And I think a lot of customers see value in that, both for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux side of the business, and also on the OpenShift side of the business. >> Well that's interesting. I'd love to get your both perspective on this whole Enterprise focus, because the Enterprise is, as you know, guys you've been there from the beginning, they have requirements. And there're sometimes, they're different by Enterprise. So as you see cloud, and I remember early days of Amazon, it's the 15th year of AWS, 10th year of re:Invent as a conference. I mean, that seems like a lifetime ago. But that's not, not too far ago where, you know, it was like, well, Amazon might not make it, its only for developers. Enterprisers do their own thing. Now it's like, it's all about the Enterprise. How are Enterprise customers evolving with you guys? Because they're all seeing the benefit of replatforming. But as they refactor, how has Red Hat evolved with that trend and how have you helped Amazon? >> Yeah, so as we mentioned, Enterprisers really across the globe are adopting a Hybrid Cloud Strategy. But, Hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure. So, its certainly the infrastructure where these Enterprisers are running these applications is increasingly becoming Hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the Edge. But the Enterprisers application portfolios are also Hybrid, right? It's a Hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic and tier type applications. But also new cloud native services that have either been built from scratch, or as you mentioned, existing applications have been refactored. And then they're moving beyond the applications, as I mentioned to make better use of data. Also evolving their processes for how they build, deploy, and manage, leveraging, CI/CD and GitOps and so forth. So really for us it's, how do you help Enterprises bring all that together, right? Manage this Hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this Hybrid portfolio of applications that really help them evolve their processes. We've been working with Enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time. And we're now partnering with Amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings. >> Talking about the RHEL evolution. I mean, because that's the bread and butter for Red Hat. It has been there for a long time. OpenShift again, making argument earlier, I mentioned the bets you guys made with Kubernetes, for instance, and it's all been made with all the right moves. So I love ROSA. You got me sold on that. RHEL though has been the tried and true steady workhorse. How has that evolved with workloads? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think when customers were at the stage, when they were wondering, if well, can I use AWS to solve my problem, or should I use AWS to solve my problem? Our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement. Can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that Amazon is rolling up? Can we ensure that consistency with the on-premise and off-premise? And I think now we're starting to shift focus into really differentiating RHEL on the AWS platform. Again, integrating natively with AWS services, making it easier to operate in AWS. And a good example of this is using tools like Red Hat Insights, which we announced, I guess, about a year ago. Which is now included in every Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription. Using tools like Insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up, helping customer solve them. Can the customers identify problems before they happen? Helping them with performance problems. And again, having additional tools like that, additional cloud-based tools, makes RHEL as easy to use on the Cloud despite all the complexity of all the redeploying, refactoring, microservices, there is now a proliferation of infrastructure options, and to the extent that RHEL can be the thing that is consistent, solid, reliable, secure, just as customers are getting in, then we can make customer successful. >> You know, Joe, we talked about this last time we were chatting, I think Red Hat Summit or Ansible Fest, I forget which event it was, but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code. They want to write some code, and now they want the infrastructure's code, AKA DevOps, DevSecOps, but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at re:Invent, that requires automation. That requires a lot of stuff that happened under the covers. Red Hat is at the center of all this action from historical perspective, pre-existing Enterprises before Cloud now, during Cloud, and soon to be Cloud Scale, how do you see that evolving? Because how are customers shaping their architecture? Cause this is distributed computing in the cloud. It's essentially, we've seen this moving before, but now at such a scale where data, security, these are all new elements. How do you talk about that? >> Yeah, well, first of all, got to mention, Linux is a given right. Linux is going to be available in every environment, data center, Public Cloud, Edge. Linux combined with Linux containers and Kubernetes, that's the abstraction like abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure. And now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned. So, we're very focused on helping customers really build fully automated end to end deployment pipelines, so they can build their applications more efficiently. They can automate the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever Cloud or Edge footprint they choose. And that they can promote across environments. Because again, it's not just about developing the applications, it's about moving them all the way through to production where their customers are relying on those services to do their work and so forth. And so that's what we're doing is, you know, obviously I think, Linux is a given, Linux, Containers, Kubernetes. Those decisions have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them? >> You know, Gunnar, we were joking in theCUBE. I was old enough to remember we used to install Linux on a server back in the day. Now a lot of these young developers never actually have to install the software and do some of those configurations 'cause it's all automated now. Again, the commoditization and automation trend, abstraction layers, some say, is a good thing. So how do you see the evolution of this DevOps movement with the partnership with AWS going forward? What types of things are you working on with Amazon Web Services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it used to be that as you say, Linux was something that you managed with a mouse and keyboard. And I think it's been quite a few years since any significant amount of Linux has been managed with a mouse and a keyboard. A lot of it is scripts, automation tools, configuration management tools, things like this. And the investments we've made both in RHEL and in specifically RHEL on AWS is around enabling RHEL to be more manageable. And so, including things like something we call System Roles. So these are Ansible modules that kind of automate routine system's administration tasks. We've made investments in something called Image Builder. And so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need, create a blueprint for it, and then kind of stamp out the same image, whether it's an ISO image, so you can install it on-premise or an AMI so we can deploy it in AWS. So again, the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and that kind of old world, three and a half-inch floppy disc kind of Linux problems. And now we've evolved towards making Linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale whether you're in AWS or whether you're On premise. >> Joe, take us through the Hybrid story. I know obviously success with OpenShifts Managed Service on AWS. What's the update there for you? What are customers expecting this re:Invent and what's the story for you guys? >> Yeah, so, you know, the OpenShift Managed Services business this is the fastest growing segment of our business. We're seeing lots of new customers. And again, bringing new customers, I think for both Red Hat and AWS through this service. So, we expected to hear from customers at re:Invent about what they're doing. Again, not only with OpenShift and our Red Hat solutions, but really with what they're building on top of those service offerings, of those solutions to sort of bring more value to their customers. To me, that's always the best part of re:Invent is really hearing from customers. And when we all start going there in person again, to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one, whether it's in person or virtual and so forth. So, looking forward to that. >> Well, great to have you guys on theCUBE. Congratulations on all success. The Enterprise continues to adopt more and more Cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the RHEL side, and as you guys modernize with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> Okay, Red Hat's partnership with AWS evolving as Cloud scale Edge, all distributed computing, all happening at large scale. This is theCUBE with CUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Despite all the talk about repatriation, hybrid and multi-Cloud opportunities, and Cloud is an increasingly expensive option for customers, the data continues to show the importance of public Cloud to the digital economy. Moreover, the two leaders, AWS and Azure, are showing signs of accelerated momentum that point to those two giants pulling away from the pack in the years ahead, with each firm's showing broad based momentum across their respective product lines. It's unclear if anything, other than government intervention or self-inflicted wounds will slow these two companies down this decade. Despite their commanding lead, a winning strategy for companies that don't run their own Cloud continues to be innovating on top of their massive CapEx investments. The most notable example here being Snowflake. Hello, everyone. Welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we provide our quarterly market share update for the big four hyperscale Cloud providers. And we'll share some new ETR data from their most recent survey. And we'll drill into some of the reasons for the momentum of these two companies and drill further into the database and data warehouse sector to see what, if anything, has changed in that space. First, let's look at some of the noteworthy comments from AWS and Microsoft in their recent earnings updates. We heard from Amazon, the following, "AWS has seen a reacceleration of revenue growth as customers have expanded their commitment to the Cloud and selected AWS as their Cloud partner." Notably, AWS revenues increased 39% in Q3 2021. That's a thousand basis point increase in growth relative to Q3 2020. That's an astounding milestone for a company that we expect to surpass $60 billion in revenue this year. Further, AWS touted the adoption of its custom silicon, and specifically its Graviton2 processors. AWS is fond of emphasizing Graviton's 40% price performance improvements relative to x86 processors, something we've reported on quite extensively. AWS is investing in custom silicon, encouraging ISVs to port their code to the platform so that customers will experience little or no code changes when they migrate. Again, we believe this is a secret weapon for AWS as its cost structure will continue to improve at a rate faster than competitors that don't have the resources or the skills or the stomach to develop such capabilities. Microsoft, for its part, also saw astoundingly good growth of 48% this past quarter for Azure. This is a company that we forecast will approach $40 billion in IaaS and PaaS public Cloud revenue this year. Microsoft's CEO, Satya Nadella, on its earnings call, emphasized the changing nature of Cloud expanding in a distributed fashion to the edge. He referenced Azure as the world's computer. Building on his statements last year that Microsoft is building out a powerful, ubiquitous, intelligent, sensing and predictive Cloud. Yes, folks, it does feel like we're entering the so-called Metaverse, doesn't it? Okay, to underscore the momentum of these two companies, let's take a look at the ETR breakdown of Net score, which measures spending momentum. This chart will be familiar to our listeners. It shows the breakdown of net score for AWS, with the lime green showing new adoptions. That's 11%. The forest green is spending more than 6% relative to the first half of this year. That's a very robust 53%. The gray is flat spending. That's 30% on a very, very large base. And the pink is spending declines of minus 6% or worse. That's 4%. And the bright red is defections i.e those leaving AWS. That's 1%. That's virtually non-existent. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score of 59. Remember, anything over 40, we can still consider to be elevated. Let's look at that same data for Microsoft again. You have some new ads that lime green, that's 7%. The forest green is at 46% of customers spending more, which is an incredible figure for a company with revenues that will in the near term surpass $200 billion. And the red is in the low single digits. Buffered by its enormous PC software profits over the years, Microsoft is powered through its Window's Dogma and transitioned into a Cloud powerhouse. Let's now share some of our latest numbers for the big four hyperscale players, AWS, Azure, Alibaba and Google. Here, we show data for these companies from 2018 and our estimates for 2021. This data includes our final figures for AWS, Azure and GCP for Q3 with Alibaba yet to report. Remember, only AWS and Alibaba report IaaS revenue cleanly with Microsoft and Google, they give us a little breadcrumb nuggets that allow us to triangulate with our survey data and other intelligence. But it's our attempt to do an apples to apples comparison for those four companies using AWS and it's reporting as a baseline. In Q3, AWS reported more than $16 billion in revenue. We estimate Azure at 10 billion, Alibaba, we expect to come in at just under 3 billion, and GCP at 2.5 billion for the quarter. With three quarters of data in, with the exception of Alibaba, we're forecasting AWS to capture 51% of the big four revenue, the hyperscale revenue. And really we believe these are the only four hyperscalers. AWS will surpass 60 billion with Azure just under 40 billion, Alibaba approaching 11 billion, and Google coming in just under 10 billion for the year is our expectation. We forecast these four will account for $120 billion this year. That's a 41% increase over 2020 and the same collective growth rate as 2020 relative to 2019. We expect Azure to be 63% of the size of AWS revenue. So it is gaining share. Both of those companies, however, saw accelerated growth this past quarter with Alibaba and GCP's growth rates decelerating relative to last year. Now, let's take a closer look at those growth rates. This chart shows the quarterly growth rates for each of the four going back to the beginning of 2019. Both GCP and Alibaba are showing dramatic declines in growth rates, whereas, this past quarter Azure saw accelerated growth and AWS has now seen an increased rate of growth for the past two quarters. In fact, AWS' growth is about where it was in 2019 when it was around half of its current revenue size. And in 2019 growth was decelerating through the quarters as you can see where today that trend has reversed. It's quite amazing. All right, let's take a look at the broader Cloud landscape and bring back some ETR data. This chart that we're showing here, it shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share or presence in the dataset on the horizontal axis. Note that red dotted line, anything above that we can still consider elevated and impressive. As when we've previously shared this data, AWS and Microsoft Azure are up and to the right. Now remember, this chart is not just counting IaaS and PaaS as we showed you earlier, it's however the customers views whatever they think Cloud is. And so they're likely including Microsoft SaaS in this picture. Which is why Microsoft shows larger than AWS despite what we showed you earlier. Nonetheless, these two are well ahead of the pack and the growth rates indicate that they're pulling away. But we've added some of the other players, most notably VMware Cloud on AWS. It's showing momentum as is VMware Cloud, which is VMware Cloud foundation and other on-prem Cloud offerings, even though it's below the red line for the on-prem piece, it's very respectable. The VMware Cloud on AWS has been consistently up above that red line. Has popped beneath it in some quarters, but it's very, very strong. As is, you know, Red Hat OpenShift, it's a little bit below the line, but it is respectable. We've superimposed this by the way. Red Hat OpenShift in the ETR platform is under the container orchestration taxonomy, but we'd like to put it in next to the Cloud players for context. That's how Red Hat sort of thinks about this as well. They think about OpenShift as Cloud. And then you can see the other players. Alibaba has got a small sample in the ETR dataset. Just does not enough presence in China. But Dell and HPE have started to show up in the Cloud taxonomy. So buyers are associating their private Clouds with Cloud. So Dell's Apex, HPE's GreenLake. So that's a positive. And you can see Oracle, which of course is OCI, Oracle Cloud infrastructure. And then IBM with its public Cloud. So, it's a positive that these on-prem players are showing up in this data, but the reality is the hyperscalers are growing collectively at 40% annually and the on-prem players are growing in the low single digits. So, and if you carve out the IaaS business of AWS and Azure, they're larger than most of the on-premises infrastructure players. And all the on-prem players are moving toward an as a service model, as I just alluded to. So, undoubtedly, hybrid multicloud edge are going to present opportunities for the likes of Dell, HPE, Cisco, VMware, IBM, Red Hat, et cetera. But they also present opportunities for the public Cloud players who have vibrant ecosystems and marketplaces much more diverse and deep than the traditional vendors. You know, we have a clearer picture of Microsoft's sort of hybrid and edge strategy because the company has such an enormous legacy business, it really had to think about that much more deeply. It wasn't a blank sheet of paper like AWS. It's going to be interesting at reinvent this year if new CEO, Adam Selipsky, will talk about this. And it will be good to hear how he's thinking about the next decade, how AWS thinks about hybrid and edge, I guarantee that with their developer affinity and custom Silicon capabilities, they're thinking about it differently than traditional enterprise players. And as we've stressed in this segment, they have across the board momentum. Now to quantify that, let's take a look at AWS as portfolio in the spending momentum within its product segments. This chart shows AWS's net scores or spending momentum in the areas where AWS participates in the ETR taxonomy. Again, note that red line. Anything above 40% is considered an elevated watermark. We're showing data from last October, this past July and the latest October 21 survey. That yellow line or a bar. What's notable is the yellow versus the gray bars up across the board for the most part, other than chime... And by the way, other than chime, everything is above the 40% mark as well. Now, we've highlighted database because we feel it's one of the most strategic sectors in a real battleground. So we want to drill into that a bit. Here's our familiar X Y graph showing Net score on the Y axis, remember, that's, again, spending momentum and market share or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis. This data, by the way, includes on-prem and Cloud database data warehouse. So keep that in mind. Let's start with one of our favorite topics; Snowflake. We've reported again and again and again, that we've never seen anything like this. The company's net score has moderated ever so slightly this quarter, but it's still just below 80%. Very highly elevated. Well, above that 40% mark. It's Snowflake's presence continues to grow as a gain share in the market. Snowflake is growing revenue in the triple digits. It's an insane pace, hence its current $115 billion market cap as of this episode. Now that said, all three US-based Cloud players there are above the 40% line with AWS and Microsoft having significant presence on the horizontal axis. You see Cockroach Labs, Redis, Couchbase, they're all elevated or highly elevated. Couchbase just went public this summer. So that may help with its presence. MongoDB, they're killing it. They have a $37 billion market cap as of this episode. The stock has been on a tear. You see MariaDB was also in the mix. And then of course you have Oracle, the database leader. Look, they continue to invest in making the Oracle database and other software like MySQL, the best solution for mission critical workloads, and they're investing in their Cloud. But you can see overall, they just don't have the momentum from a spending standpoint that the others do because the declines in their legacy business. And they've been around a long time. Those declines are not fully offset by the growth in Cloud database and Cloud migration. But look, Oracle is a financial powerhouse with a $250 billion plus market cap. And the stock has done very well this past year. Up over 60%. Cloudera is going private. So it can hide the pain of the transitions that it's undergoing between the legacy install bases of Cloudera and Hortonworks. It's just a tough situation. When the companies came together, Cloudera essentially had a dead end. Each of those respective platforms and migrate their customers to a more modern stack as part of its Cloud strategy. Ironic that it's name is Cloudera. You know, that's always a difficult thing to do. So as a private company, Cloudera can maybe get off that 90 day shot clock and buy some time to invest without getting hammered by the street. And you know, Teradata consistently has not shown up well in the ETR dataset. It's transitioned to Cloud and cross-Cloud still hasn't shown momentum in the surveys. So, look right now, it's looking like the rich get richer. So just to quantify that a little bit, let's line up some of the database players and look a little bit more closely at net score. This chart shows the spending momentum or lack thereof with the net score or spending velocity granularity that we described before. Remember, green is spending more, red is spending less, bright red is leaving the platform, bright green is adding the platform. You take red, subtract red from the green, and that gives you a net score. Snowflake, as we said, tops the list. You can see the granularity there. You can compare the performance. In a little different view to understand how these scores are derived, look, the ideal profile is a solid lime green, a big forest green, a not too large gray and ideally little or no bright red AKA defections. And you can see the green funnel in the gray increasing prominence as the vendor momentum declines. Interestingly, with the exception of Cloudera and Teradata, defections are all in the single digits or nonexistent. In the case of Snowflake, Redis, red is no red at all, but small sample, Couchbase has no defections and very little defection for the giant Microsoft. Incredibly impressive. This speaks to how hard it is to migrate off of a database no matter how disgruntled you are. The more common scenario is to isolate the database and build new functionality on modern platforms. Okay, so what to watch out for. Well, reinvent this coming up next month. Oh this month. It's the first time someone other than Andy Jassy will be keynoting as CEO. 15 years of Cloud, this is the 10th re-invent, which is always a market for the direction of the industry. I've said many times that the last decade was largely about IT transformation powered by the Cloud. I believe we're entering a new era of business transformation where the Cloud is going to play a significant role. But the Cloud is evolving from a set of remote services out there in the Cloud to an omnipresent platform on top of which many customers and technology companies can innovate. And virtually every industry will be impacted by Cloud. However it evolves in the coming decade. The question will be, how fast can you go? And how will players like AWS and Microsoft and many others that are building on top of these platforms make it easier for you to go fast? That's what I'll be watching for at re-invent and beyond. Okay, that's a wrap for today. Remember, these episodes, they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcasts. Check out ETR's website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, david.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. We'll see you at re-invent. (soft upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everybody to this CUBE Conversation. My name is Dave Vellante, and we're here to talk about Object storage and the momentum in the space. And what Dell Technologies is doing to compete in this market, I'm joined today by Anahad Dhillon, who's the Product Manager for Dell, EMC's ECS, and new ObjectScale products. Anahad, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you so much Dave. We appreciate you having me and Dell (indistinct), thanks. >> Its always a pleasure to have you guys on, we dig into the products, talk about the trends, talk about what customers are doing. Anahad before the Cloud, Object was this kind of niche we seen. And you had simple get, put, it was a low cost bit bucket essentially, but that's changing. Tell us some of the trends in the Object storage market that you're observing, and how Dell Technology sees this space evolving in the future please. >> Absolutely, and you hit it right on, right? Historically, Object storage was considered this cheap and deep place, right? Customers would use this for their backup data, archive data, so cheap and deep, no longer the case, right? As you pointed out, the ObjectSpace is now maturing. It's a mature market and we're seeing out there customers using Object or their primary data so, for their business critical data. So we're seeing big data analytics that we use cases. So it's no longer just cheap and deep, now your primary workloads and business critical workloads being put on with an object storage now. >> Yeah, I mean. >> And. >> Go ahead please. >> Yeah, I was going to say, there's not only the extend of the workload being put in, we'll also see changes in how Object storage is being deployed. So now we're seeing a tighter integration with new depth models where Object storage or any storage in general is being deployed. Our applications are being (indistinct), right? So customers now want Object storage or storage in general being orchestrated like they would orchestrate their customer applications. Those are the few key trends that we're seeing out there today. >> So I want to dig into this a little bit with you 'cause you're right. It used to be, it was cheap and deep, it was slow and it required sometimes application changes to accommodate. So you mentioned a few of the trends, Devs, everybody's trying to inject AI into their applications, the world has gone software defined. What are you doing to respond to all these changes in these trends? >> Absolutely, yeah. So we've been making tweaks to our object offering, the ECS, Elastic Cloud Storage for a while. We started off tweaking the software itself, optimizing it for performance use cases. In 2020, early 2020, we actually introduced SSDs to our notes. So customers were able to go in, leverage these SSD's for metadata caching improving their performance quite a bit. We use these SSDs for metadata caching. So the impact on the performance improvement was focused on smaller reads and writes. What we did now is a game changer. We actually went ahead later in 2020, introduced an all flash appliance. So now, EXF900 and ECS all flash appliance, it's all NVME based. So it's NVME SSDs and we leveraged NVME over fabric xx for the back end. So we did it the right way did. We didn't just go in and qualified an SSD based server and ran object storage on it, we invested time and effort into supporting NVME fabric. So we could give you that performance at scale, right? Object is known for scale. We're not talking 10, 12 nodes here, we're talking hundreds of nodes. And to provide you that kind of performance, we went to ahead. Now you've got an NVME based offering EXF900 that you can deploy with confidence, run your primary workloads that require high throughput and low latency. We also come November 5th, are releasing our next gen SDS offering, right? This takes the Troven ECS code that our customers are familiar with that provides the resiliency and the security that you guys expect from Dell. We're re platforming it to run on Kubernetes and be orchestrated by Kubernetes. This is what we announced that VMware 2021. If you guys haven't seen that, is going to go on-demand for VMware 2021, search for ObjectScale and you get a quick demo on that. With ObjectScale now, customers can quickly deploy enterprise grade Object storage on their existing environment, their existing infrastructure, things like VMware, infrastructure like VMware and infrastructure like OpenShift. I'll give you an example. So if you were in a VMware shop that you've got vSphere clusters in your data center, with ObjectScale, you'll be able to quickly deploy your Object enterprise grid Object offering from within vSphere. Or if you are an OpenShift customer, right? If you've got OpenShift deployed in your data center and your Red Hat shop, you could easily go in, use that same infrastructure that your applications are running on, deploy ObjectScale on top of your OpenShift infrastructure and make available Object storage to your customers. So you've got the enterprise grade ECS appliance or your high throughput, low latency use cases at scale, and you've got this software defined ObjectScale, which can deploy on your existing infrastructure, whether that's VMware or Red Hat OpenShift. >> Okay, I got a lot of follow up questions, but let me just go back to one of the earlier things you said. So Object was kind of cheap, deep and slow, but scaled. And so, your step one was metadata caching. Now of course, my understanding is with Object, the metadata and the data within the object. So, maybe you separated that and made it high performance, but now you've taken the next step to bring in NVME infrastructure to really blow away all the old sort of scuzzy latency and all that stuff. Maybe you can just educate us a little bit on that if you don't mind. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that was exactly the stepped approach that we took. Even though metadata is tightly integrated in Object world, in order to read the actual data, you still got to get to the metadata first, right? So we would cache the metadata into SSDs reducing that lookup that happens for that metadata, right? And that's why it gave you the performance benefit. But because it was just tied to metadata look-ups, the performance for larger objects stayed the same because the actual data read was still happening from the hard drives, right? With the new EXF900 which is all NVME based, we've optimized the our ECS Object code leveraging VME, data sitting on NVME drives, the internet connectivity, the communication is NVME over fabric, so it's through and through NVME. Now we're talking milliseconds and latency and thousands and thousands of transactions per second. >> Got it, okay. So this is really an inflection point for Objects. So these are pretty interesting times at Dell, you got the cloud expanding on prem, your company is building cloud-like capabilities to connect on-prem to the cloud across cloud, you're going out to the edge. As it pertains to Object storage though, it sounds like you're taking a sort of a two product approach to your strategy. Why is that, and can you talk about the go-to market strategy in that regard? >> Absolutely, and yeah, good observation there. So yes and no, so we continued to invest in ECS. ECS continues to stay a product of choice when customer wants that traditional appliance deployment model. But this is a single hand to shape model where you're everything from your hardware to your software the object solution software is all provided by Dell. ECS continues to be the product where customers are looking for that high performance, fine tune appliance use case. ObjectScale comes into play when the needs are software defined. When you need to deploy the storage solution on top of the same infrastructure that your applications are run, right? So yes, in the short-term, in the interim, it's a two product approach of both products taking a very distinct use case. However, in the long-term, we're merging the two quote streams. So in the long-term, if you're an ECS customer and you're running ECS, you will have an in-place data upgrade to ObjectScale. So we're not talking about no forklift upgrades, we're not talking about you're adding additional servers and do a data migration, it's a code upgrade. And then I'll give you an example, today on ECS, we're at code variation 3.6, right? So if you're a customer running ECS, ECS 3.X in the future, and so we've got a roadmap where 3.7 is coming out later on this year. So from 3.X, customers will upgrade the code data in place. Let's call it 4.0, right? And that brings them up to ObjectScale. So there's no nodes left behind, there's an in-place code upgrade from ECS to the ObjectScale merging the two code streams and the long-term, single code, short-term, two products for both solving the very distinct users. >> Okay, let me follow up, put on my customer hat. And I'm hearing that you can tell us with confidence that irrespective of whether a customer invested ECS or ObjectScale, you're not going to put me into a dead-end. Every customer is going to have a path forward as long as their ECS code is up-to-date, is that correct? >> Absolutely, exactly, and very well put, yes. No nodes left behind, investment protection, whether you've got ECS today, or you want to invest into ECS or ObjectScale in the future, correct. >> Talk a little bit more about ObjectScale. I'm interested in kind of what's new there, what's special about this product, is there unique functionality that you're adding to the product? What differentiates it from other Object stores? >> Absolutely, my pleasure. Yeah, so I'll start by reiterating that ObjectScale it's built on that Troven ECS code, right? It's the enterprise grid, reliability and security that our customers expect from Dell EMC, right? Now we're re platforming ECS who allow ObjectScale to be Kubernetes native, right? So we're leveraging that microservices-based architecture, leveraging that native orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes, things like resource isolation or seamless (indistinct), I'm sorry, load balancing and things like that, right? So the in-built native capabilities of Kubernetes. ObjectScale is also build with scale in mind, right? So it delivers limitless scale. So you could start with terabytes and then go up to petabytes and beyond. So unlike other file system-based Object offerings, ObjectScale software would have a limit on your number of object stores, number of buckets, number of objects you store, it's limitless. As long as you can provide the hardware resources under the covers, the software itself is limitless. It allows our customers to start small, so you could start as small as three node and grow their environment as your business grows, right? Hundreds of notes. With ObjectScale, you can deploy workloads at public clouds like scale, but with the reliability and control of a private cloud data, right? So, it's then your own data center. And ObjectScale is S3 compliant, right? So while delivering the enterprise features like global replication, native multi-tenancy, fueling everything from Dev Test Sandbox to globally distributed data, right? So you've got in-built ObjectScale replication that allows you to place your data anywhere you got ObjectScale (indistinct). From edge to core to data center. >> Okay, so it fits into the Kubernetes world. I call it Kubernetes compatible. The key there is automation, because that's the whole point of containers is, right? It allows you to deploy as many apps as you need to, wherever you need to in as many instances and then do rolling updates, have the same security, same API, all that level of consistency. So that's really important. That's how modern apps are being developed. We're in a new age year. It's no longer about the machines, it's about infrastructure as code. So once ObjectScale is generally available which I think is soon, I think it's this year, What should customers do, what's their next step? >> Absolutely, yeah, it's coming out November 2nd. Reach out to your Dell representatives, right? Get an in-depth demo on ObjectScale. Better yet, you get a POC, right? Get a proof of concept, have it set up in your data center and play with it. You can also download the free full featured community edition. We're going to have a community edition that's free up to 30 terabytes of usage, it's full featured. Download that, play with it. If you like it, you can upgrade that free community edition, will license paid version. >> And you said that's full featured. You're not neutering the community edition? >> Exactly, absolutely, it's full featured. >> Nice, that's a great strategy. >> We're confident, we're confident in what we're delivering, and we want you guys to play with it without having your money tied up. >> Nice, I mean, that's the model today. Gone are the days where you got to get new customers in a headlock to get them to, they want to try before they buy. So that's a great little feature. Anahad, thanks so much for joining us on theCUBE. Sounds like it's been a very busy year and it's going to continue to be so. Look forward to see what's coming out with ECS and ObjectScale and seeing those two worlds come together, thank you. >> Yeah, absolutely, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. >> All right, and thank you for watching this CUBE Conversation. This is Dave Vellante, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everybody to this CUBE Conversation. My name is Dave Vellante, and we're here to talk about Object storage and the momentum in the space. And what Dell Technologies is doing to compete in this market, I'm joined today by Anahad Dhillon, who's the Product Manager for Dell, EMC's ECS, and new ObjectScale products. Anahad, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you so much Dave. We appreciate you having me and Dell (indistinct), thanks. >> Its always a pleasure to have you guys on, we dig into the products, talk about the trends, talk about what customers are doing. Anahad before the Cloud, Object was this kind of niche we seen. And you had simple get, put, it was a low cost bit bucket essentially, but that's changing. Tell us some of the trends in the Object storage market that you're observing, and how Dell Technology sees this space evolving in the future please. >> Absolutely, and you hit it right on, right? Historically, Object storage was considered this cheap and deep place, right? Customers would use this for their backup data, archive data, so cheap and deep, no longer the case, right? As you pointed out, the ObjectSpace is now maturing. It's a mature market and we're seeing out there customers using Object or their primary data so, for their business critical data. So we're seeing big data analytics that we use cases. So it's no longer just cheap and deep, now your primary workloads and business critical workloads being put on with an object storage now. >> Yeah, I mean. >> And. >> Go ahead please. >> Yeah, I was going to say, there's not only the extend of the workload being put in, we'll also see changes in how Object storage is being deployed. So now we're seeing a tighter integration with new depth models where Object storage or any storage in general is being deployed. Our applications are being (indistinct), right? So customers now want Object storage or storage in general being orchestrated like they would orchestrate their customer applications. Those are the few key trends that we're seeing out there today. >> So I want to dig into this a little bit with you 'cause you're right. It used to be, it was cheap and deep, it was slow and it required sometimes application changes to accommodate. So you mentioned a few of the trends, Devs, everybody's trying to inject AI into their applications, the world has gone software defined. What are you doing to respond to all these changes in these trends? >> Absolutely, yeah. So we've been making tweaks to our object offering, the ECS, Elastic Cloud Storage for a while. We started off tweaking the software itself, optimizing it for performance use cases. In 2020, early 2020, we actually introduced SSDs to our notes. So customers were able to go in, leverage these SSD's for metadata caching improving their performance quite a bit. We use these SSDs for metadata caching. So the impact on the performance improvement was focused on smaller reads and writes. What we did now is a game changer. We actually went ahead later in 2020, introduced an all flash appliance. So now, EXF900 and ECS all flash appliance, it's all NVME based. So it's NVME SSDs and we leveraged NVME over fabric xx for the back end. So we did it the right way did. We didn't just go in and qualified an SSD based server and ran object storage on it, we invested time and effort into supporting NVME fabric. So we could give you that performance at scale, right? Object is known for scale. We're not talking 10, 12 nodes here, we're talking hundreds of nodes. And to provide you that kind of performance, we went to ahead. Now you've got an NVME based offering EXF900 that you can deploy with confidence, run your primary workloads that require high throughput and low latency. We also come November 5th, are releasing our next gen SDS offering, right? This takes the Troven ECS code that our customers are familiar with that provides the resiliency and the security that you guys expect from Dell. We're re platforming it to run on Kubernetes and be orchestrated by Kubernetes. This is what we announced that VMware 2021. If you guys haven't seen that, is going to go on-demand for VMware 2021, search for ObjectScale and you get a quick demo on that. With ObjectScale now, customers can quickly deploy enterprise grade Object storage on their existing environment, their existing it infrastructure, things like VMware, infrastructure like VMware and infrastructure like OpenShift. I'll give you an example. So if you were in a VMware shop that you've got vSphere clusters in your data center, with ObjectScale, you'll be able to quickly deploy your Object enterprise grid Object offering from within vSphere. Or if you are an OpenShift customer, right? If you've got OpenShift deployed in your data center and your Red Hat shop, you could easily go in, use that same infrastructure that your applications are running on, deploy ObjectScale on top of your OpenShift infrastructure and make available Object storage to your customers. So you've got the enterprise grade ECS appliance or your high throughput, low latency use cases at scale, and you've got this software defined ObjectScale, which can deploy on your existing infrastructure, whether that's VMware or Red Hat OpenShift. >> Okay, I got a lot of follow up questions, but let me just go back to one of the earlier things you said. So Object was kind of cheap, deep and slow, but scaled. And so, your step one was metadata caching. Now of course, my understanding is with Object, the metadata and the data within the object. So, maybe you separated that and made it high performance, but now you've taken the next step to bring in NVME infrastructure to really blow away all the old sort of scuzzy latency and all that stuff. Maybe you can just educate us a little bit on that if you don't mind. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that was exactly the stepped approach that we took. Even though metadata is tightly integrated in Object world, in order to read the actual data, you still got to get to the metadata first, right? So we would cache the metadata into SSDs reducing that lookup that happens for that metadata, right? And that's why it gave you the performance benefit. But because it was just tied to metadata look-ups, the performance for larger objects stayed the same because the actual data read was still happening from the hard drives, right? With the new EXF900 which is all NVME based, we've optimized the our ECS Object code leveraging VME, data sitting on NVME drives, the internet connectivity, the communication is NVME over fabric, so it's through and through NVME. Now we're talking milliseconds and latency and thousands and thousands of transactions per second. >> Got it, okay. So this is really an inflection point for Objects. So these are pretty interesting times at Dell, you got the cloud expanding on prem, your company is building cloud-like capabilities to connect on-prem to the cloud across cloud, you're going out to the edge. As it pertains to Object storage though, it sounds like you're taking a sort of a two product approach to your strategy. Why is that, and can you talk about the go-to market strategy in that regard? >> Absolutely, and yeah, good observation there. So yes and no, so we continued to invest in ECS. ECS continues to stay a product of choice when customer wants that traditional appliance deployment model. But this is a single hand to shape model where you're everything from your hardware to your software the object solution software is all provided by Dell. ECS continues to be the product where customers are looking for that high performance, fine tune appliance use case. ObjectScale comes into play when the needs are software defined. When you need to deploy the storage solution on top of the same infrastructure that your applications are run, right? So yes, in the short-term, in the interim, it's a two product approach of both products taking a very distinct use case. However, in the long-term, we're merging the two quote streams. So in the long-term, if you're an ECS customer and you're running ECS, you will have an in-place data upgrade to ObjectScale. So we're not talking about no forklift upgrades, we're not talking about you're adding additional servers and do a data migration, it's a code upgrade. And then I'll give you an example, today on ECS, we're at code variation 3.6, right? So if you're a customer running ECS, ECS 3.X in the future, and so we've got a roadmap where 3.7 is coming out later on this year. So from 3.X, customers will upgrade the code data in place. Let's call it 4.0, right? And that brings them up to ObjectScale. So there's no nodes left behind, there's an in-place code upgrade from ECS to the ObjectScale merging the two code streams and the long-term, single code, short-term, two products for both solving the very distinct users. >> Okay, let me follow up, put on my customer hat. And I'm hearing that you can tell us with confidence that irrespective of whether a customer invested ECS or ObjectScale, you're not going to put me into a dead-end. Every customer is going to have a path forward as long as their ECS code is up-to-date, is that correct? >> Absolutely, exactly, and very well put, yes. No nodes left behind, investment protection, whether you've got ECS today, or you want to invest into ECS or ObjectScale in the future, correct. >> Talk a little bit more about ObjectScale. I'm interested in kind of what's new there, what's special about this product, is there unique functionality that you're adding to the product? What differentiates it from other Object stores? >> Absolutely, my pleasure. Yeah, so I'll start by reiterating that ObjectScale it's built on that Troven ECS code, right? It's the enterprise grid, reliability and security that our customers expect from Dell EMC, right? Now we're re platforming ECS who allow ObjectScale to be Kubernetes native, right? So we're leveraging that microservices-based architecture, leveraging that native orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes, things like resource isolation or seamless (indistinct), I'm sorry, load balancing and things like that, right? So the in-built native capabilities of Kubernetes. ObjectScale is also build with scale in mind, right? So it delivers limitless scale. So you could start with terabytes and then go up to petabytes and beyond. So unlike other file system-based Object offerings, ObjectScale software would have a limit on your number of object stores, number of buckets, number of objects you store, it's limitless. As long as you can provide the hardware resources under the covers, the software itself is limitless. It allows our customers to start small, so you could start as small as three node and grow their environment as your business grows, right? Hundreds of notes. With ObjectScale, you can deploy workloads at public clouds like scale, but with the reliability and control of a private cloud data, right? So, it's then your own data center. And ObjectScale is S3 compliant, right? So while delivering the enterprise features like global replication, native multi-tenancy, fueling everything from Dev Test Sandbox to globally distributed data, right? So you've got in-built ObjectScale replication that allows you to place your data anywhere you got ObjectScale (indistinct). From edge to core to data center. >> Okay, so it fits into the Kubernetes world. I call it Kubernetes compatible. The key there is automation, because that's the whole point of containers is, right? It allows you to deploy as many apps as you need to, wherever you need to in as many instances and then do rolling updates, have the same security, same API, all that level of consistency. So that's really important. That's how modern apps are being developed. We're in a new age year. It's no longer about the machines, it's about infrastructure as code. So once ObjectScale is generally available which I think is soon, I think it's this year, What should customers do, what's their next step? >> Absolutely, yeah, it's coming out November 2nd. Reach out to your Dell representatives, right? Get an in-depth demo on ObjectScale. Better yet, you get a POC, right? Get a proof of concept, have it set up in your data center and play with it. You can also download the free full featured community edition. We're going to have a community edition that's free up to 30 terabytes of usage, it's full featured. Download that, play with it. If you like it, you can upgrade that free community edition, will license paid version. >> And you said that's full featured. You're not neutering the community edition? >> Exactly, absolutely, it's full featured. >> Nice, that's a great strategy. >> We're confident, we're confident in what we're delivering, and we want you guys to play with it without having your money tied up. >> Nice, I mean, that's the model today. Gone are the days where you got to get new customers in a headlock to get them to, they want to try before they buy. So that's a great little feature. Anahad, thanks so much for joining us on theCUBE. Sounds like it's been a very busy year and it's going to continue to be so. Look forward to see what's coming out with ECS and ObjectScale and seeing those two worlds come together, thank you. >> Yeah, absolutely, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. >> All right, and thank you for watching this CUBE Conversation. This is Dave Vellante, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. This is the CUBEs, continuous, deep dive coverage of the people, processes and technologies that are really changing our world. Right now, we're going to talk about modernization and what's beyond with Jamie Thomas, general manager, strategy and development, IBM Enterprise Security. Jamie, always a pleasure. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> It's great to see you, Dave. And thanks for having me on the CUBE is always a pleasure. >> Yeah, it is our pleasure. And listen, we've been hearing a lot about IBM is focused on hybrid cloud, Arvind Krishna says we must win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. I love that. We've been hearing a lot about AI. And I wonder if you could talk about IBM Systems and how it plays into that strategy? >> Sure, well, it's a great time to have this discussion Dave. As you all know, IBM Systems Technology is used widely around the world, by many, many 1000s of clients in the context of our IBM System Z, our power systems and storage. And what we have seen is really an uptake of monetization around those workloads, if you will, driven by hybrid cloud, the hybrid cloud agenda, as well as an uptake of Red Hat OpenShift, as a vehicle for this modernization. So it's pretty exciting stuff, what we see as many clients taking advantage of OpenShift on Linux, to really modernize these environments, and then stay close, if you will, to that systems of record database and the transactions associated with it. So they're seeing a definite performance advantage to taking advantage of OpenShift. And it's really fascinating to see the things that they're doing. So if you look at financial services, for instance, there's a lot of focus on risk analytics. So things like fraud, anti money laundering, mortgage risk, types of applications being done in this context, when you look at our retail industry clients, you see also a lot of customer centricity solutions, if you will, being deployed on OpenShift. And once again, having Linux close to those traditional LPARs of AIX, I-Series, or in the context of z/OS. So those are some of the things we see happening. And it's quite real. >> Now, you didn't mention power, but I want to come back and ask you about power. Because a few weeks ago, we were prompted to dig in a little bit with the when Arvind was on with Pat Kessinger at Intel and talking about the relationship you guys have. And so we dug in a little bit, we thought originally, we said, oh, it's about quantum. But we dug in. And we realized that the POWER10 is actually the best out there and the highest performance in terms of disaggregating memory. And we see that as a future architecture for systems and actually really quite excited about it about the potential that brings not only to build beyond system on a chip and system on a package, but to start doing interesting things at the Edge. You know, what do you what's going on with power? >> Well, of course, when I talked about OpenShift, we're doing OpenShift on power Linux, as well as Z Linux, but you're exactly right in the context for a POWER10 processor. We couldn't be more we're so excited about this processor. First of all, it's our first delivery with our partner Samsung with a seven nanometer form factor. The processor itself has only 18 billion transistors. So it's got a few transistors there. But one of the cool inventions, if you will, that we have created is this expansive memory region as part of this design point, which we call memory inception, it gives us the ability to reach memory across servers, up to two petabytes of memory. Aside from that, this processor has generational improvements and core and thread performance, improved energy efficiency. And all of this, Dave is going to give us a lot of opportunity with new workloads, particularly around artificial intelligence and inferencing around artificial intelligence. I mean, that's going to be that's another critical innovation that we see here in this POWER10 processor. >> Yeah, processor performance is just exploding. We're blowing away the historical norms. I think many people don't realize that. Let's talk about some of the key announcements that you've made in quantum last time we spoke on the qubit for last year, I think we did a deeper dive on quantum. You've made some announcements around hardware and software roadmaps. Give us the update on quantum please. >> Well, there is so much that has happened since we last spoke on the quantum landscape. And the key thing that we focused on in the last six months is really an articulation of our roadmaps, so the roadmap around hardware, the roadmap around software, and we've also done quite a bit of ecosystem development. So in terms of the roadmap around hardware, we put ourselves out there we've said we were going to get to over 1000 qubit machine and in 2023, so that's our milestone. And we've got a number of steps we've outlined along that way, of course, we have to make progress, frankly, every six months in terms of innovating around the processor, the electronics and the fridge associated with these machines. So lots of exciting innovation across the board. We've also published a software roadmap, where we're articulating how we improve a circuit execution speeds. So we hope, our plan to show shortly a 100 times improvement in circuit execution speeds. And as we go forward in the future, we're modifying our Qiskit programming model to not only allow a easily easy use by all types of developers, but to improve the fidelity of the entire machine, if you will. So all of our innovations go hand in hand, our hardware roadmap, our software roadmap, are all very critical in driving the technical outcomes that we think are so important for quantum to become a reality. We've deployed, I would say, in our quantum cloud over, you know, over 20 machines over time, we never quite identify the precise number because frankly, as we put up a new generation machine, we often retire when it's older. So we're constantly updating them out there, and every machine that comes on online, and that cloud, in fact, represents a sea change and hardware and a sea change in software. So they're all the latest and greatest that our clients can have access to. >> That's key, the developer angle you got redshift running on quantum yet? >> Okay, I mean, that's a really good question, you know, as part of that software roadmap in terms of the evolution and the speed of that circuit execution is really this interesting marriage between classical processing and quantum processing and bring those closer together. And in the context of our classical operations that are interfacing with that quantum processor, we're taking advantage of OpenShift, running on that classical machine to achieve that. And once again, if, as you can imagine, that'll give us a lot of flexibility in terms of where that classical machine resides and how we continue the evolution the great marriage, I think that's going to that will exist that does exist and will exist between classical computing and quantum computing. >> I'm glad I asked it was kind of tongue in cheek. But that's a key thread to the ecosystem, which is critical to obviously, you know, such a new technology. How are you thinking about the ecosystem evolution? >> Well, the ecosystem here for quantum is infinitely important. We started day one, on this journey with free access to our systems for that reason, because we wanted to create easy entry for anyone that really wanted to participate in this quantum journey. And I can tell you, it really fascinates everyone, from high school students, to college students, to those that are PhDs. But during this journey, we have reached over 300,000 unique users, we have now over 500,000 unique downloads of our Qiskit programming model. But to really achieve that is his back plane by this ongoing educational thrust that we have. So we've created an open source textbook, around Qiskit that allows organizations around the world to take advantage of it from a curriculum perspective. We have over 200 organizations that are using our open source textbook. Last year, when we realized we couldn't do our in person programming camps, which were so exciting around the world, you can imagine doing an in person programming camp and South Africa and Asia and all those things we did in 2019. Well, we had just like you all, we had to go completely virtual, right. And we thought that we would have a few 100 people sign up for our summer school, we had over 4000 people sign up for our summer school. And so one of the things we had to do is really pedal fast to be able to support that many students in this summer school that kind of grew out of our proportions. The neat thing was once again, seeing all the kids and students around the world taking advantage of this and learning about quantum computing. And then I guess that the end of last year, Dave, to really top this off, we did something really fundamentally important. And we set up a quantum center for historically black colleges and universities, with Howard University being the anchor of this quantum center. And we're serving 23 HBCUs now, to be able to reach a new set of students, if you will, with STEM technologies, and most importantly, with quantum. And I find, you know, the neat thing about quantum is is very interdisciplinary. So we have quantum physicist, we have electrical engineers, we have engineers on the team, we have computer scientists, we have people with biology and chemistry and financial services backgrounds. So I'm pretty excited about the reach that we have with quantum into HBCUs and even beyond right I think we can do some we can have some phenomenal results and help a lot of people on this journey to quantum and you know, obviously help ourselves but help these students as well. >> What do you see in people do with quantum and maybe some of the use cases. I mean you mentioned there's sort of a connection to traditional workloads, but obviously some new territory what's exciting out there? >> Well, there's been a really a number of use cases that I think are top of mind right now. So one of the most interesting to me has been one that showed us a few months ago that we talked about in the press actually a few months ago, which is with Exxon Mobil. And they really started looking at logistics in the context of Maritime shipping, using quantum. And if you think of logistics, logistics are really, really complicated. Logistics in the face of a pandemic are even more complicated and logistics when things like the Suez Canal shuts down, are even more complicated. So think about, you know, when the Suez Canal shut down, it's kind of like the equivalent of several major airports around the world shutting down and then you have to reroute all the traffic, and that traffic and maritime shipping is has to be very precise, has to be planned the stops are plan, the routes are plan. And the interest that ExxonMobil has had in this journey is not just more effective logistics, but how do they get natural gas shipped around the world more effectively, because their goal is to bring energy to organizations into countries while reducing CO2 emissions. So they have a very grand vision that they're trying to accomplish. And this logistics operation is just one of many, then we can think of logistics, though being a being applicable to anyone that has a supply chain. So to other shipping organizations, not just Maritime shipping. And a lot of the optimization logic that we're learning from that set of work also applies to financial services. So if we look at optimization, around portfolio pricing, and everything, a lot of the similar characteristics will also go be applicable to the financial services industry. So that's one big example. And I guess our latest partnership that we announced with some fanfare, about two weeks ago, was with the Cleveland Clinic, and we're doing a special discovery acceleration activity with the Cleveland Clinic, which starts prominently with artificial intelligence, looking at chemistry and genomics, and improve speed around machine learning for all of the the critical healthcare operations that the Cleveland Clinic has embarked on but as part of that journey, they like many clients are evolving from artificial intelligence, and then learning how they can apply quantum as an accelerator in the future. And so they also indicated that they will buy the first commercial on premise quantum computer for their operations and place that in Ohio, in the the the years to come. So it's a pretty exciting relationship. These relationships show the power of the combination, once again, of classical computing, using that intelligently to solve very difficult problems. And then taking advantage of quantum for what it can uniquely do in a lot of these use cases. >> That's great description, because it is a strong connection to things that we do today. It's just going to do them better, but then it's going to open up a whole new set of opportunities. Everybody wants to know, when, you know, it's all over the place. Because some people say, oh, not for decades, other people say I think it's going to be sooner than you think. What are you guys saying about timeframe? >> We're certainly determined to make it sooner than later. Our roadmaps if you note go through 2023. And we think the 2023 is going to will be a pivotal year for us in terms of delivery around those roadmaps. But it's these kind of use cases and this intense working with these clients, 'cause when they work with us, they're giving us feedback on everything that we've done, how does this programming model really help me solve these problems? What do we need to do differently? In the case of Exxon Mobil, they've given us a lot of really great feedback on how we can better fine tune all elements of the system to improve that system. It's really allowed us to chart a course for how we think about the programming model in particular in the context of users. Just last week, in fact, we announced some new machine learning applications, which these applications are really to allow artificial intelligence users and programmers to get take advantage of quantum without being a quantum physicist or expert, right. So it's really an encapsulation of a composable elements so that they can start to use, using an interface allows them to access through PyTorch into the quantum computer, take advantage of some of the things we're doing around neural networks and things like that, once again, without having to be experts in quantum. So I think those are the kind of things we're learning how to do better, fundamentally through this co-creation and development with our quantum network. And our quantum network now is over 140 unique organizations and those are commercial, academic, national laboratories and startups that we're working with. >> The picture started become more clear, we're seeing emerging AI applications, a lot of work today in AI is in modeling. Over time, it's going to shift toward inference and real time and practical applications. Everybody talks about Moore's law being dead. Well, in fact, the yes, I guess, technically speaking, but the premise or the outcome of Moore's law is actually accelerating, we're seeing processor performance, quadrupling every two years now, when you include the GPU along with the CPU, the DSPs, the accelerators. And so that's going to take us through this decade, and then then quantum is going to power us, you know, well beyond who can even predict that. It's a very, very exciting time. Jamie, I always love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming back on the CUBE. >> Well, I appreciate the time. And I think you're exactly right, Dave, you know, we talked about POWER10, just for a few minutes there. But one of the things we've done in POWER10, as well as we've embedded AI into every core that processor, so you reduce that latency, we've got a 10 to 20 times improvement over the last generation in terms of artificial intelligence, you think about the evolution of a classical machine like that state of the art, and then combine that with quantum and what we can do in the future, I think is a really exciting time to be in computing. And I really appreciate your time today to have this dialogue with you. >> Yeah, it's always fun and it's of national importance as well. Jamie Thomas, thanks so much. This is Dave Vellante with the CUBE keep it right there our continuous coverage of IBM Think 2021 will be right back. (gentle music) (bright music)