>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube, covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Well welcome back here at the Sands expos. We continue our coverage here on theCube of AWS re:Invent. We said about 40,000 attendees this week. We're just off the show floor, it is been jam packed, with a lot of energy, all day today. Justin Warren and John Walls we're joined up by Ramin Sayar who is the President, CEO of Sumo Logic. Ramin, how are you are doing. >> Good, thanks for having me back today. >> You bet, always good to have you back on theCube. You made some news, had an announcement yesterday that kind of takes your AWS linkage or partnership to a new level. Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so in short, you know we've been partnering with Amazon for well over eight years. We've been born and bred in the Cloud as a multi tenant service. And, over the years we've been working on a variety of ways to improve some operational best practices, not just innovations and products, and that's led us to really push Amazon to do more in security. Because, the security, posture, practices, understanding in the cloud world, is fundamentally different than that on prem in the traditional world. >> Yeah. So one of the key points of the announcement was some efforts that we're continuing with Amazon around security and bringing cloud first security posture, best practices as well as integrations, some things we've already announced, as well some things I may hypothetically be announced tomorrow. >> Okay, So tell us about that discussion. Alright, you say its been going on for some time. The need to bring a higher level of awareness or concern, however you want to word it, to security in the public cloud. I mean, how's that evolved and then where's that going to go? >> Well I guess, there's two ways looking at it. You know, one is, its really centered on the fact that there's a big movement right now for the lift and shift of workloads to the cloud. >> Yeah. >> And you can't bring along all the baggage that's associated with these workloads, because you're modernizing these applications, and fundamentally it requires different ways of instrumenting, collecting, analyzing and last and definitely not least, the tsunami of data that's being generated because of these distribute applications. You can't take the old way of writing rules to presuppose events and security issues in this new world. So we've been pushing Amazon really, really hard to build practices. So a competency was one of the things we first started with them, right? And that competency led us to understand it's not just about guard duty, it's not just about some simple best practices, but how we bring the broader community together. So, we're taking this on the road with them, bringing the MSPs or managed service providers, as well as managed security service providers together and building this integrated practice to them, and with them, so they can take it out as a channel. What are you expecting people to get out of this. So when you've this roadshow and you've taken this show on the road and you've got all this MSPs to sign up to this way of doing things. Where do you see them taking from where they are today and where they will end up at the end of this. >> Yes as simply put, managed service providers or managed security providers, are one vehicle. >> A lot of this is actually, teaching the practitioners, in terms of CSO's, security operations, and security analysts. Like what should you consider, what should you use in the cloud. So it's not just about VPC flow logs, it's not just about AWS config or guard duty, but the combination of what the Amazon does or AWS does, at the infrastructure level, coupled with what Sumo does at the security analytics level is what delivers that best in class cloud service for security. >> Right. >> And so it's educating 'em on that first. >> Second piece is, really pushing that responsibility not just as a security operations or a security analyst team, but upstream into the development teams. And so that's part of this whole notion that Sumo's been aggressively pushing called DevSecOps. It's a responsibility everybody in the organization, not just the people downstream that get the hangover when a breach happens. >> Right. >> Right? >> Feels like we've been talking about that idea of embedding bending security into, well, security is everyone's issue, and that we need to move it upstream, and you shift it left as a lot of people like to say. So, where we you think we are on that journey? So we've been talking about it for a little while. It feels like we still actually right at the beginning of that kind of movement. >> So, it's funny you say that, 'cause we're thinking about this before this event and categorically we see in born in the clouds types of companies, they have a security first principle mind already. And so, naturally as, they just look at it as another data source that they have to manage, not as a burden. And so, that's a difference with traditional security companies, the enterprise, who feel like, oh great my developers are going over there and now it's a burden for me to manage that. So, I think from the born and bred cloud perspective, adoption is super high. The ones that are doing the lift and shift now, we're trying to get the CSO's to be the champions. So we enter a lot of times there versus just the devops students. And so as a result, that's helping us educate the CSO's to take it down to the sock or the analyst so they can understand, what should I even use with Amazon and how does Sumo support that? >> Yeah, so it sounds like a lot of these more traditional companies are doing, in the same way that the cloud has changed the way developers actually write code and use infrastructure, it sounds like the security practices that have been born in the cloud are actually starting to make their way back up or upstream if you will into this more traditional companies and they're cloudifying the way they run things. Which is an interesting parallel to the what we're seeing with the infrastructure where it's becoming more hybrid. So we're kind of getting this hybrid security model of the old way of doing things and the cloud way of doing things. >> Yeah, and I think the interesting piece of that is, it's profoundly changing the operating model. Right, historically all this teams been siloed. They use their silo tools for security over here, for monitoring over there, for troubleshooting over here, right, for building and release systems over there. And this new way of deploying, building, running, securing workloads and more importantly cloud services now, it's fundamentally broke down those barriers. And so by nature, what's it done is, forced those team to either come together to collaborate, in a lot of cases what we say in accounts is also, there's a single throat to choke. Person that's owning that service owns and end to end. Right, and so our platform uniquely helps all those different constituents across the organization really share and collaborate, but also rely on one vendor, and one platform that spans not just obviously here with Amazon and Amazon Web Services, but also GCP, Azure, and 40% of the data we collect every day comes from on prem. We give them that single platform that spans everything that they need. >> What is the, if there is a fundamental problem that when somebody who has, they look at their migration and they say, okay public cloud that's where we're going, from a security stand point is it that, they are going to a space that they don't have total control over or they are going to a space, now this is the way we used to do it, and now you're going to, you're coming at it from a different side. I don't know if it that's by-end, I mean what is the kind of like the-- >> So I think it comes down to three things. I think one is mindset change. So we look for progressive CSO's that believe in the vision of fundamentally doing things different. Two is debunking the myth. And I say that because SIM has been a dirty word for years. Useless services and technology and vendors that have been pimping SIM for years and have not delivered on the value. >> Don't minse words, tell me what you think Ramin. >> No, been all seriousness, and so we have a job to clean up that dirty work. So with the cloud SIM and what we're doing on top of Amazon in supporting other cloud providers, we're trying to make it sexy again. But more importantly, make it real, deliver value through our cloud SIM. And the third is, we're trying to break down the silos. It's not just a security operations schemes anymore. And they understand that, in order for them to have that holistic control, because at the end of the day it's about control, they need to have accountability upstream and they need to be partnering with the devops teams. And so that's the value we bring because the devops team, the cyber liability engineers, the tech ops, platform engineering are all using Sumo. So now we can connect the CSO to them and they can have one unified way. Share it lights tiered model for data, they can have access control, predictable cost and then more importantly going forward allows them to start analyze data, different values, different sets as they need to through a consumption model. >> You say you're trying the SIM sexy again, which is an interesting way of putting it. What are you seeing customers using Sumo logic for that really gets your intent? What's something you think would be a thing that people here in this show should really pay attention to? Why should people use it? >> So are you a gamer? >> I have been known to game on occasion. >> Do you play Pokemon or Fortnite? >> No, I keep getting pestered to get Fortnite, but no, I'm an old schooler. I like Borderlands 2. >> So you do, okay. So I'll give two different contrasting examples in the gaming industry for example. So Pokemon, guess who their average age user is? >> About eight? >> No. >> No? >> Kids. Young kids. And so for them it's about protecting identity. Right, and protecting privacy of it's users, kids for parents. So we help them with privacy and controls. You compare that with Fortnight. We help fortify Fortnight because Fortnight needs to look at the metadata, what's going on in the game. Right, they're looking at all the actions from the chat, from the text, from the things that were unplanned in the game, to get a sense of how the real game experience is. They're both securing but in different ways. You compare/contrast that to outside of gaming, media, online retailers, what do we help them with? They have audit responsibilities because they take payments for PCI. They have health care responsibilities, because HIPAA compliance. They have regulatory responsibilities with GDPR. Right? And so we help all of them with the audit and compliance, but also we give them the threat and investigation capabilities when and if they have a breach or when they have an audit issue. >> So you are not a Pokemon player? >> I played Pokemon Go for a while, then I was like, I'm too busy hosting theCube. I don't have time for that. >> Ramin, thanks for being with us, we appreciate the story and wish you continued success. Sumo Logic just about 50 yards from our spot here on the floor, drawing a lot of attention in your booth. So, congratulations on that as well. >> Thanks for having me again, great seeing you guys. >> You bet. Alright, back with more here on theCube. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas. (soft alternative music)

(Caribbean music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. >> Hello, welcome back everyone. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE. Exclusive coverage here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, it's a global conference where a lot of the leaders are coming together. It's our second day of wall-to-wall coverage. Talking to all the top people: government officials, entrepreneurs, investors, and tons of great action here. Our next guest is Marcus Levin who's the co-founder of XYO Network, xyo.network is the URL. Interesting opportunity really built from the ground up. No outside funding, although it does some interesting things with their community. Great IoT example, great use of the cloud, great example of how real entrepreneurs are working with crypto and blockchain to actually grow. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So, tell me a little bit about what you guys do. Take a minute to explain to the audience what XYO Network is, how did you get here, what is it all about? >> Yeah, sure. So, XYO Network is the world's first decentralized location oracle. "Oracle" means data input into smart contracts. Now you have the problem that a lot of data sources are centralized and hackable or spoofable. So, if you make a bet, for example, you need to look at the results of the bet at a website, the website could be hacked, it could collude with someone to provide wrong data. The same problem exists with GPS. GPS is easily spoofable and hackable, like during the Pokemon Go craze, for example, all the kids just downloaded GPS spoofing apps, they get all the rare Pokemons. Or, allegedly the Iranians took down an American drone a few years back sending up a wrong GPS signal. The drone just landed. So, because of that, you can't do transactions based on location data. Today, most applications for location, GPS location, are navigational but not transactional. We solve this by providing a decentralized location data or network. We do this though IoT devices, mobile phone apps, and other types of partnerships. We are around since 2012. Started as an IoT company which provided location beacons, we call it XY Findit. We have about a million of them out there, and they can recognize each other's location. It's like us two taking a selfie together, we print out two copies, put our signatures on there. When we leave each other, we can prove that were here together. And it's the same thing with those devices. Our own devices but also with partnerships we build this mobile app distributors and IoT companies. What can you do with this? You could, for example, do payment up and delivery for e-commerce. So, you could put a chip, a small chip like an RFID chip into Amazon packaging tape. Once the package arrives at your doorstep, or even in your house, the payment gets triggered. It works by the doorbell, your Tesla in the driveway, your neighbor's cell phone, any type of connected device recognizing that the package is there. The payment automatically gets triggered. One third of Americans experienced porch theft in 2016. You don't know if it was a UPS driver, for example, scanning the package but taking it, or your neighbor took the package, or someone random came by. This way, you can prevent porch theft, or you can discover it. Or you could make sure your kids arrived safely at school, they arrived there with their friends and they took the path you wanted them to take. Or hotel review sites, for example, have the problem that they lose their users because they don't believe that the reviews are real anymore. But if you could prove someone flew from San Diego, that's where we're based, to Puerto Rico, has stayed at this hotel for tonight, and then flew back and wrote the review about it, suddenly you have a location-verified review. So, that's all today, but in the world, in five to ten years, full of AI, robots, self-driving cars, drones, smart cities, you need transactional location data and nobody's providing that today and we want to be the center of the future. >> Awesome. So, that's super-exciting, I got to ask you about the IoT piece because, do you need physical devices out there? Are you going to be deploying sensors? Are you leveraging pre-existing infrastructure? I love that selfie example. I can imagine we do a selfie, share it, it's a location-based opportunity. The phone's got location base. How do you guys interface with this? How does it work? >> Right now the network builds on top of our own devices. We are around since 2012, as I said, so we have a large network already. We are an existing company, it's a little rare in the blockchain space. >> Yeah. >> And we build partnerships now with IoT companies like certain light bulb division company, or fridges, all connected devices, mobile app distributors. >> So, you're providing your customers the IoT device folks who are proliferating out there. >> Yeah, we put our code basically out there. We can-- >> Open source? >> Open source, yeah. >> Okay. >> And you can plug it as an SDK into, let's say, your mobile app. Or you can use it as a monetization tool as well, because you earn tokens as you verify location, and this data is part an answer, and so you could earn XYO tokens, as you become-- We call them "sentinels", location verification device in our network. >> So, how do you guys tie this together on the token side? So, you reward, what behavior do you reward with a token? >> There are four components in our network. There's the sentinel, as I spoke about, which are the IoT devices or mobile phones which verify the location. Then you have bridges which relay the data. They relay it into something we call the archivist, which is a distributed computer system, if you are familiar with storage here in this space, for example, or the old system, like Sentient home from Berkeley, it works like that. So, the data's on people's personal computers. And then we have something we call the diviner algorithm, which provides the answers. It works like mining. So, you might want to ask, "Where's my package right now?" And the question gets sent to the network, a bunch of diviners, which works like mining, Ethereum, transactional things. A bunch of diviners will take the data from the archivist, the distributed computer system, and try to find the best answer and try to find as close as possible the consensus as they can. >> What about spoofing? I mean, people might want to spoof the location. >> Yes. >> How do you prevent spoofing? >> Yeah, that's a good question. So, we two could collude pretty easily. But if this entire room of people is who you usually don't know, it's very difficult to collude. So, one of them is scale. Then we build reputation over time. So, as your answers are probable, you build reputation. For example, if all us say we are here at this hotel right now, but you say, "No, we are in Shanghai," your answer is improbable and your reputation goes down. In addition to that, we disincentivize lying-- >> You're very data-driven. >> Extremely. >> This is big time analytics. >> Extremely data-driven. >> So, what are you guys doing for analytics and what chain are you using? 'Cause performance becomes an issue. >> Yep. >> How's the plumbing work? What's the analytics look like? Take a minute to explain that. >> Yeah, it's very beautiful. We have our own chain: the XYO main chain. So, we are an oracle which plugs into any type of smart contract. You know, you have Ethereum and about 19 other coins which have smart contracts. So, we build on our chain to lower the transaction costs, transaction times, and build a more reliable network for ourselves and then it plugs into all other smart contracts. >> So, you have your own chain to manage this? >> Yes. >> So, that's one of the reasons why you, from an operational standpoint, you want to lock that down. >> Yes. >> So you can control performance. >> Exactly. >> Latency, timestamps, security, whatnot. >> Exactly, that's right. >> The openness is for the smart contracts. Is that what you're saying? >> Yeah. >> I can do any smart contract I want. >> This is basically for old site developers it's like an API, you can plug into it-- >> Got it. >> We connect the real world with the blockchain. So, right now you have very limited applications for blockchain in a lot of cases because you can't take offline things and connect them to the chain. What we allow to do is, we call it the API to the real world, where you take location data, put it into the chain and make it transactional. >> So, I got to ask you a question. This is interesting, I love this, I want to get into more of the token sale and what you guys are doing raising money. In the IoT world, certainly with cloud computing, the big debate is, do you move compute to the edge where the data is, or do you move the data back to the centralized cloud? Here, since you're decentralized with the IoT device, is the data coming back to your central network, or-- >> No, it's not. >> Where is the processing at? At the edge? What's the edge equation? Explain that. >> So, everything is decentralized. We believe that our company doesn't need to necessarily exist in a few years and the network will live on and grow as we grow the community, so the community is very important to us. The devices are decentralized, you own your cell phone. The data storage is decentralized. So, you can define, like, 3% of my personal computing power goes to this, for example, you earn XYO tokens. The mining is decentralized like any mining is decentralized today, so us as a company, once people start to build on the platform, we don't need to exist, which makes it beautiful, right? This is what blockchain is all about. Decentralizing and building this platform layer where people can build on top of. >> So, there's a ton of Bluetooth and GPS out there. >> Yep. >> Talk about where you guys have got your traction. I want you to take a minute to explain. We kind of went off on a tangent on some IoT rant, there, I was interested in. But I want to take it back to mainstream. >> Okay. >> There's GPS out there, you've got Bluetooth, everyone's got Bluetooth devices. So, it's not like this is massive new, it's a requirement. >> Yeah. >> You guys did some interesting things how you funded your first token sale. >> Right. >> You have customers. You've been around for how long? >> 2012. >> 2012. You've been successful. No outside capital. >> Yeah. >> So, you bootstrapped. You made things happen. Had some revenue come in. How'd you do it? Take us through that progression. >> Yeah, so we co-founders worked in various ventures together previously and one of our co-founders, the main founder I would say, Arie Trouw, he started this company in 2012, and we bootstrapped it with seven million dollars of our own cash and one and a half million in venture debt. We really believe in what we do. >> You guys put up a lot of capital. >> Yes. >> Congratulations. >> We believe in what we do. We believe in our capabilities to attract the right teams, we have an amazing team. >> That's skin in the game. >> It's skin in the game and it's actually a low-risk investment for me because I know what we are capable of. >> You are underwriting your own competence. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Okay, so, you had seven million of your own cash. Did you pass the hat around, you all kind of contributed money in, or? >> It was mostly from Arie, actually. (laughs) But we all have skin in the game there. >> So, you have a community, then you launch your idea, what happened next? >> Exactly. So, then the VCs started to come. We did some outreach, VCs started to come, they're interested in our idea, you know, they love what we do. Platform is right, quite sexy right now. In blockchain we are a platform and you can build a lot on top of it. We pushed off the VCs and we said we want to take community money first. The reason is, we believe in building this strong community of evangelists, people who believe in us, who want to code with us. We went to all the developer conferences, not to, like, investor conferences, or something like that. And, so, we marketed to about 2,300 people, our token sale and a little under 500 people put some Ethereum into our token sale and 95% were under 5 ETH. That was a very global community. >> Was that a utility token sale? >> Yes. >> Outside the US, 'cause there's credited investors involved, or what was the-- >> It's clearly a utility token, because you can build on top of it. Last weekend, the city of San Diego and 120 hackers, a IoT company, were in our office to build on top of our chain, traffic flow and parking solutions for the city of San Diego. So, it's clearly a utility token but because of the uncertain regulatory environment we are actually running it like it's a security, so, we have a Reg A, Reg D, Reg S, whatever, we have 115 different jurisdictions we look at, I spoke during the whole process, I'm not lying, it's-- >> That's a lot of work. >> Yeah. 23 lawyers I spoke with. It's a lot of hours with lawyers on the phone. The most aggressive on of them, she suggested to me a structure with no taxes but 20% prison potential, I think. (laughs) On the other side-- >> It's a good cause. You're doing it right. So you spent a lot of money to make sure that your community was involved. >> Yes. And they weren't throwing a lot of money, like they're millionaires, they're like, let's throw a thousand dollars? >> Yep. >> That kind of numbers. >> Yes, exactly. >> So, it's not like you're breaking the bank but they feel ownership. >> Absolutely. If you look at our telegram channel-- >> And you've raised, what, a million, two million, three million, from that? >> One point seven. >> From the community? >> Only community, those 400 people. We had it open for five to six days. We closed it down. We didn't take any money anymore. And since yesterday, I started talking with institutionals again and now we are a sexy story so now they come again, right? (laughs) >> Platforms are sexy. >> Exactly. >> We know, we have one, too. >> (laughs) That's awesome. Love your project. >> Well, the thing about platforms is that, as you know, we talked about last night, is that the platform wars and the platform entrepreneurial thinking has radically changed. In the old days, it was, I've got a platform and I'm going to monetize my platform for my application. Look at Facebook. >> Right. >> They monetize their platform data for advertisers, not users. I am a Google search engine, I need to make the best search result so I can get better advertising. And search results, thats a part. But the new order is the platform value goes to the users or customers. >> Right, right. That's right. >> So not... >> We are not rent-seeking. >> This is an open model with platforming. >> 100% open. There is a lot of the platforms are rent-seeking, where a certain percent of each transaction goes to the company or to some founders or something. We don't have that at all. So, what we do, for every token we sell, we allocate one to the company and after the token sale there is not going to be ever more XYO tokens ever again. And we use our portion to build this network but we don't take any fees or anything there. >> How do you make money? >> Building partnerships with companies, helping them to build on top of the chain, building the community. >> At some point you need to take a small cut of something, right? >> Yeah, if we own half the tokens, hopefully there is some value. >> They could be-- okay, so you'll get the token opportunity? >> Yes. >> So, on the security token, do the investors, the community and now token holders, is that an equity security token, so they own the company through the tokens, right? Non-dilutive, non-voting equity, is that what you're thinking? >> Yeah, it's not an equity token. It's still in our mind a utility token but we do something very interesting. During the token sale event, we are going to launch an equity sale at the same time. So, you can decide if you are comfortable in the blockchain space, you know, all you want to be an equity investor. The disadvantage is you have less liquidity there but you have all the protections an equity gives you. We are a California-based company. It was audited financial since 2012. SEC-qualified and regulated, so equity in our case is a kind of sexy kind of thing. >> Yeah, and they have the long game. They're betting on acquisition or something else. >> Basically. >> Oh, well, they've got to get some revenue going. Well, what's next? What are you guys doing? Token sale done, is it working? What, is it going on now, let me just check it out. You've completed it? >> No, it's going to start on March 20th. It's going to run for two months until May 20th and so now it's a lot of travel, speaking with people, engaging. >> (laughs) >> Yeah, that's next. >> Well, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> So glad that Carrie on Facebook notified me of you guys. Super-impressed with what you're doing and we had a great conversation last night at the monetize roof party. Great to know you guys. I think IoT really needs this kind of model because there's a lot of real critical challenges around the role of data, the role of immutability. There's all kind of sensor devices out there, cameras, you can't go anywhere, digital cities are coming, smart cities. >> Right. >> Self-driving cars. It's going to be wired up, big time, so I think you guys got a good opportunity. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. This is John Furrier here in Puerto Rico for exclusive coverage of Blockchain Unbound. More after this short break. (electronic beats)

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. >> Welcome back everyone. Live here in San Francisco at Moscone West is the exclusive coverage from theCUBE SiliconANGLE Media of the SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and the co-host of theCUBE. My next guest is Amy Jo Kim who is the CEO of Shufflebrain. It's the parent company of gamethinking.io, a variety of other projects, and expert in the convergence of design, gaming, computer science, and et cetera. Welcome to theCUBE. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. Obviously we've been seeing the trend, the convergence trend for a while certainly in the tech industry. Computer science and social science coming together, that was our motto when we started our company eight years ago. But really to me the flashpoint was Steve Jobs had the technology-liberal arts crossroads. That really kind of spawned the beginning of a creative generation start thinking about the devices, how it all intersects, and not the pure play handheld. So gamers here at Samsung Development Conference and developers bring game mechanics in. That's communities, gamification, games themselves, user interface. What's your reaction to all this? You've designed a great bunch of interfaces. >> I'm, I think it's fantastic. I think what we're seeing is really a flashpoint that has several trends converging. One of the trends we have is developers, the folks here, you know are right here at this wonderful conference, they've grown up with games. They're familiar with the lexicon of games, with how games work. And so it's very natural for them when they start to build their own apps and say what will make this engaging to turn to games and look for inspiration in games? So that's been going on for a while and it's accelerating. We're also seeing that mobile technology, mobile phones, have become so ubiquitous that most of the traffic coming in on many people's experiences 70%, I recently ran a promotion for Shufflebrain, 70% of our traffic was mobile total traffic. So the ubiquity of mobile phones means that everybody's got a potential gaming machine or a machine where they can have a light, fun, engaging experience right in their pocket. So as you noted, we've moved away from single purpose game consoles, handheld or otherwise they still exist, but more and more what we see is the best games and the best game like experiences that might not be games but they the feel and the pull of games. Those are showing up on mobile phones like Samsung. >> And the screens are awesome. I'll say my Note 8 here is awesome and bigger and better and the graphics. But it's a generational shift too. Like my son was, we're designing a new app and we're kind of sitting at the drawing board and he's like, "Dad, you're a search generation. "No one searches anymore. "You actually type on the keyboard, that's like so old." So he brings up a point which is illuminated here. Which is you see voice touch, voice activation. Harman's got now the kind of interface with this audio. You're seeing cars all over the air with software. This is really the computer science, computer engineering culture interfacing with art. Where new user experiences are coming that quite frankly don't look the same. >> Exactly that's such a good point. So what's happening is that a lot of the user experiences, the back end neural networks, the AI, the sophisticated bots that we've been seeing in gaming for the last five or six years are trickling into the mainstream. And that's what you always see. Gaming is the canary in a coal mine. What we see now happening in games and what we saw a few years ago is becoming more mainstream. So if we look now at what's happening in gaming, that gives us a clue to 18 to 24 months out for app developers. >> Yeah we brought this up on day one. You nailed it. It's an early indicator. >> That's right. >> What are you seeing in that area? Because you're in the vanguard of the user interface so you have a computer science background. You understand how communities work. Which by the way, you look at anything from blockchain ICOs to game communities, community is the most important aspect right now in the world. The community role of the people are so important. You don't have a network effect. You don't have input output into the quote neural aspect of the interface because now people are involved. Not just software and data bits. I need a notification from my friend if they're right around the corner from me. So it's the role of people. >> Exactly, so I'm a multiplayer game designer. The teams I work with, because it's always a team effort, are multiplayer games. Rock Band, Covet Fashion is a more recent one. And so we've known for a long time in the gaming industry that if you want to drive deep lasting engagement, you need to create a multiplayer experience and some sort of community around that. What you'll hear gamers say is "You know, I'm kind of tired of that game "but my friends need me. "It's where my friends are, my team needs me." So that's part of what drives long term engagement. >> John: The socialization piece. >> Exactly. What we're seeing now and the opportunity I think for developers even outside of gaming is we're seeing the intersection of gaming, a style of gaming that's sort of I would call them gaming systems versus game mechanics. We're seeing gaming systems find their way into social media. Musical.ly is a great example. And Discord is another example. Discord is a platform started by gamers but now it's merging into just other people. That's for communication. Sort of like a next generation Slack but mobile and for gamers. Covet Fashion, a game I worked on with a brilliant team who actually came up with the idea at CrowdStar, really merged a cooperative game mechanic like you might see in say Portal 2 or Left for Dead with social media and very lightweight voting systems of the users themselves playing a crucial role in what's good or not. Just like in Facebook or in Instagram, your feed is going to show you what gets liked a lot, what gets popular. And games are starting to incorporate this too so that the players themselves become almost like the game pieces and become a big part of what's entertaining. We see networks like Twitch with a huge rush of popularity. That is people delivering entertainment to each other. It's not scripted. So this user generated content, this systems which let people be entertaining to each other, is the huge push that's going on in gaming. And we have, part of what makes a game so exciting, is when the game makes interacting with other people lower friction or more magical but it's still the people that makes it exciting. >> Amy Jo this is amazing. I think that you're right on it. Because remember when I was a gamer, single player game on the computer, you got bored. I mastered it. Then comes multiplayer. But you're bringing up a new dynamic which is the dynamic nature of the people themselves. And I think Twitch had an interesting experiment where the comments, which we know on Twitch are pretty bad, drove the game experience. So now you have the people being part of the input to the game itself. I mean isn't Life a game in a way? >> Sure, you could look at Life the game. I think that that's a semantic issue. There are people that really enjoy looking at life as a game And if you define a game as a structured activity with roles and goals, sure you could look at it that way. What I think is most exciting is not so much what is and isn't a game but the bleeding over of gaming systems into places like digital health and education and enterprise and fashion, and those are, and genealogy. Right now I have a client who's merging a game like experience with a genealogy crowd source experience. So I think what I'd like to leave you with and to understand is the first wave of this we called gamification where people got very excited about the visible markers of progress that are in games like points and badges and leaderboards. And that's a great opening door, but that's not where the magic is. Where the magic is is in the underlying systems that drive you toward mastery of something you care about. And that's the explosion we're seeing now. So you say what am I seeing? I'm seeing clients come to me, a game designer, in all kinds, banking, call centers, SaaS products, change transformation in companies as well as all kinds of consumer products, saying we tried gamification. It just worked in the short term. We want what makes games interesting in the long term. First of all you said the most important thing which is other people. But it's not just other people. It's other people in a playful and mastery based environment that helps you get better at something you care about getting better at. >> So this great so take me through what game system. What I hear you saying is, okay, people think of gamification as a one trick pony, a shortcut to something. You're taking a much more wholistic approach saying the game system. What does that mean? What is a game system? Because you're, what I hear you saying, is that this is like a fabric. It's not like, or an operating system maybe. How should people think of a game... >> It's a methodology or a system. A good way to think about this, are you familiar with design thinking? >> Mm-hmm. >> Are you familiar with an agile approach or Agile Lean UX? Those are systems. Those are methodologies. Those are approaches to creating great products. And they help you. Game thinking is similar. It's got elements of design thinking, elements of Agile, but it adds game design. The difference between strong game design and gamification is game design is about bringing systems to life from the inside out. And so game thinking is as much about how you bring your product to life as it is about anything that you put into the product once it's brought to life. Which is where gamification usually comes in. So it's really about building a learning architecture into the core of your game using feedback loops and using simple systems. And one more thing. Every complex system starts as a simple system that works. So it's really about building core systems and then bringing them to life with the right approach and the right people. >> It's like having a kernel or a small building block. If you overthink it you could get in trouble. >> Right. But you also have to have the right building block so you build a strong foundation. >> Yeah I remember the old days when game engines came out. There was no market for game engines when the first games came out. Then someone said hey why don't we just take the game engine and become a game engine. That was an interesting dynamic that spawned a lot of innovation. Is there an analogy to that happening now where there's new innovations that people can build on top of? Is it open source? Is there an equivalent? I'm trying to figure out where that next level up is going to be because right now we've gone like this and then we see a new level with AR and these new kinds of games and you're bringing this kind of integrated system approach is coming. >> Right so I think there's two thing that have to happen for those to take off. One of which is technology based. You have to have engines. So Unity's rise has been tremendous for the gaming industry. Many many simple game-like experiences are being built in Unity, not from scratch. And other tools like that. And then ARKit from Apple is causing an explosion of really interesting work happening, making it easier to create and experiment with an experience like Pokemon Go. So those are the bottom-up tools based changes that are really accelerating innovation in our industry. Now at the time, none of that will work if you don't have the customer demand and the customer hunger. So the other thing that's happening is that customers are being trained by Pokemon Go and things like that that oh, this is how AR could work. We've seen that VR has kind of stalled out but again, that's a special purpose hardware that's not something easy that you can get on your mobile phone in between all the other things you do. So I think it can't be overstated how powerful it is to have these platforms combined with a huge consumer base on mobile, with phones in their pocket, ready to have a compelling game-like experience that doesn't necessarily have to be a game. The world is waiting for those. >> Yeah and your point about VR, you don't want a build it they will come mentality. You got to focus on the magic formula which is-- >> Customer demand. >> Call it sticky. But some could say look it's got to be a utility and that mastery component is critical whether it's learning, friendship, or some human dopamine effect right. >> Well that's exactly what we do at gamethinking.io. We help teams and companies create a product that customers love and come back to from the ground up using gaming techniques. So anyone who's interested, that's what we do. And the reason we help people do that is it's hard, and it's incredibly high leverage. >> Yeah and you got to have the expertise to do it. And it really is. It sounds like gamethinking.io, you're going to bring architecture. It's not just going to be jump on the grenade that someone throws a project at you. Sure, if it's a big project maybe. But you're kind of train the trainer it sounds like, you're teaching people to fish if you will. >> It's product development. Gamification is often a marketing campaign. We're talking about product development. If you want to build lasting engagement and you're a product leader, then you can use these techniques to build it from the ground up but it's not a silver bullet. >> Give a plug for what you do at Shufflebrain about your company and share some advice for folks watching that might be interested. Like I want to transform my Web 2.0, my 1.0 web responsive app, or my offshore built mobile app that I hired someone to just iOS it and Android it. I want to actually build from the ground up a new architecture that's going to be, have a lot of headroom, I really want to build it from the ground up with good design thinking, game system, game thinking, with the game systems, all the magic potentially in there. What do they do? I don't know do you call the, you know there's no Yellow Pages anymore. Do you Google search it? >> Thank you that was a great setup because that's, I mean I wish that I had had this years ago when I doing a venture funded startup. I needed help. So that's why I do what I do. So what we do is take 20 years of what works and what doesn't in game and product design and turn it into a step by step toolkit with templates, instruction, training, and coaching. And let me give you a specific tip. So there's, it's a whole system we use, but one of the things that you do and if anybody wants to try this it will amaze you if you're able to do it right, one of the things that the greatest game designers, the Will Wrights and folks at CrowdStar and Harmonics, what they do is when they're bringing a new game idea to life, first of all they find out aggressively as much about what's wrong with their ideas, what's right with it, through iterative, low fidelity testing early. Secondly they test it on their superfans that shortcut for high need, high value, early adopters. Not your target market but people that can get you to your target market. Knowing how to find and identify and then leverage your superfans for very early product testing and iteration, that's how you bring your core systems to life. Not with your ultimate target market. Most people don't know this. Knowing this, and then finding those people and leveraging them will turn what's often a failure into success. >> John: That's gold. >> It's complete gold. Let me just tell you why. Because if you're able to ask very product-focused questions, again with my guidance, of these people, you can build your product around what you know they want rather than guessing. >> And you can also help the person, might have blind spot, your customer, understand what superfans are saying. Sometimes it's like they're just giving you the answer right there early on. >> That's such a good point. And when you're inside of it- >> And I have bias. I'm an entrepreneur. Oh no I want to hear what I want to hear. I'm going to change the world. (laughs) Not really. >> That's why when I was an entrepreneur I knew all this stuff but I needed a coach when I was doing this. Because you can't see outside of your bubble and that's part of the value of doing this. >> Amy, the URL is? >> Gamethinking.io. >> Gamthinking.io. Amy Jo is a coach, she is an entrepreneur, venture backed, probably has some scar tissue from that but now she's kicking ass and taking names on gamethinking.io. Great mind. Thank you for sharing an amazing tutorial. You know that's free consulting here on theCUBE right here from and expert. >> It's what I love to do. Thank you for having me. >> Amy Jo here on theCUBE. Live in San Francisco at the Samsung Developer Conference, I'm John Furrier back with more here in theCUBE after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's TheCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017 brought to you by Samsung. (techno music) >> Hello there and welcome to the special exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference 2017 here at the Moscone West in San Francisco, TheCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and co-host of TheCUBE. We're here with Leah Hunter: author, thought leader, covers technology design, women in tech, a variety of things author at O'Reilly's Safari Books, Fast Company, Forbes, among a lot of other things you've done. Welcome to TheCUBE conversation here at the Samsung Developer Conference. >> Thank you. I appreciate it. >> So, Samsung obviously is tied with Google. We saw Google onstage. The story we're seeing here emerging is the edge of the network of mobile devices. That means the humans involved. That means the consumer and the technology are intersecting. This has been a big part of TheCUBE coverage, we've been looking at this for a while. We were just in China talking with Alibaba Cloud and the design ethos culture. Not just creating user experience, that's been out for a while, but it's not about speeds and feeds anymore. It's about enabling human interactions, we're seeing some bad stuff now. The fake news, all that bad behavior, but now, all the data's out there. This is a big part of the developer design now coming forward. What's your thoughts? >> Well, there are two ways that I see that playing out really powerfully and that it can play out powerfully. One, ethnography and social science is getting embedded into what people are creating now and I'm thrilled to see that, because we're at the beginning of a lot of new technologies, augmented reality is one of my specializations, and we're, you know, sure, it's been around for 60 years if you're counting that way, 15 really deeply, but we're just at the cusp of it really taking hold for consumers. And there's this opportunity for anyone developing AR specifically to build social science ethnography user research into their team to create things in a way that is, like, start as you mean to go on. We can be wise about what our future world looks like. And the second thing is around art. You know, when I came here and I sat down, you mentioned at Alibaba there had just been a conversation about art. Well, in my latest book I interviewed someone who is an artist. His name is Alex Mayhew, he did a bunch of work with Peter Gabriel, he's a digital artist who just happened to slide into technology. And because his background is in something entirely different, he approaches AR in a really different way. He just did something for an art museum in Ontario that's really fantastic and worth checking out. You can actually look up the exhibit. It's called ReBlink. I'm going to write about it, but it's there now. >> Well, you've been covering technology many ways, now you're onto AR, and also you're seeing the front range if you will of these new concepts. But before you get it there, define what ethnography is for the folks that might not know what it is. (laughs) >> Thank you. I forget, okay, so I define ethnography as kind of like seeing the world like a five year old. There's an author that I love, her name is Keri Smith. She writes children's books. I found the first copy of this at the Teat Museum. It's called How to be a Life Artist. But her books are all about close observation, collecting everything, paying attention to the world, and finding everything interesting. Being curious in the same way you do when you're a five year old. Well, that's essentially what an ethnographer does in a business context. They observe, they interview people, they go around and collect data the same way that anyone who's on the data side is doing it with numbers. They do it with quotes and observation and pictures and then aggregate that into a story. >> That brings up a great conversation we're seeing here at the Samsung conference as a trend, a mega trend if you will, and that is the blending of analog and digital. Or, they say, physical to digital. Whatever they want to call it. Internet of things is the tech buzzword, >> (Leah) Yeah >> Internet of things being the senses on devices, or wearables, or things of that nature. That is defined as the edge of the network. This is the big wave that's forcing things to be different at the tech level. So this is where this blending comes in. It's the consumerization of tech. This is a big part of these consumer companies who have to kind of get their act together on cloud computing, and a lot of tech detail. So it's coming down from the edge, the infrastructures being redefined, or replatformed as we say. How do you view that, and what does your data show for you around how companies are reacting, what are the consumer expectations? >> Well, I'm going to speak to what I'm seeing in the world because I approach the world like an ethnographer. I wander around, and I collect interesting bits of things, kind of like a magpie. >> (John) Yeah. >> One thing that I saw this week, or I saw two things that were very interesting. I was just in New York, and I walked past an area where it was branded Amazon, but it kind of looked like a carnival. And I was like, what is going on here? And basically, Amazon is doing pop-ups, I believe they said in 18 cities, they just started in New York, but it's a pop-up where you can text in, and you can buy an item on Amazon that you can't get anywhere else. In this instance it was a Nintendo. You go and you pick it up in this physical space that kind of operates like a carnival and has circusy lights and beautiful trucks and whatever. But I thought that that was the coolest blend, and they also gave me their marketing materials that kind of looked like a ticket to a carnival. But I liked that, because it was a new way a digital focused company is operating in the physical world, to your point. It's a new way of blending those. And Amazon doesn't necessarily have to do it. It's just smart marketing. But it also shows the way that companies are pushing from the internet into the physical world. Now that's also happening in reverse. There's a company I really like called Shimmy that basically uses Kinect sensors to measure your body and make custom-made swimsuits for women. They're using that digital information and they're sort of, like, pushing it, so, yeah. >> Yeah, this is a big thing, I mean, this is about reimagining the future. And I think developers, this is a developer conference, so they tried out all the shiny new toys, Bixby, which is personalization now, IOT, which is kind of a geeky message, but ultimately the developers and the ecosystem partners of Samsung have to create the future together. So the question for you is around how you see the ecosystems developing. I see developers learning more about the real world. Less being behind the wall, if you will. Being the super geeks coding away. You're seeing developers on the front lines. And I think that's super important. I do want to get it noted here that you got a book coming out. >> Yes. >> So tell us what you're working on, cause it's going to ship in December? >> Yeah, I... >> What is the book about? I mean, obviously it's chroniclizing this new wave. What is the book about? Tell us a little bit about the book you're writing. >> So I wrote a book, my last book was about industrial augmented reality specifically, and it was sponsored by PTC, so you can actually go and find it for free. They wanted something that would work around industrial AR, and I wrote it in editorial independence so it is truly my perspective, but what was interesting about that at the time I wrote it, I discovered industrial AR was the most powerful place to play, because there were real world examples of AR actually helping people. >> John: Yeah. >> Now, I've broadened that look to see okay, Goldman Sachs said that there's going to be all this growth. Are the areas that they're looking at, things like education, real estate, you know, construction, is there actually growth there? So it's a broad look at a AR. And it's on O'Reilly's Safari Books. >> John: Well, that's interesting. One of the things that's interesting, you know, I've seen many waves myself, I've been through a bunch of cycles. It used to be the consumers that would lead the trends. But you're bringing up an interesting point around AI, augmented reality, even virtual reality. The innovations coming from the enterprise side. So, industrial IOT is really hot right now cause people are connecting physical plant and equipment. You see drones and it's mostly about industrial, AR's industrial because the use cases are so obvious. >> That's right. >> Not necessarily the consumer side has it yet. So it's almost flipped the entire world around. >> But, with, you know, Pokemon Go, that did sort of give consumers the scent, a scent of, okay, this is what it is you know, with AR kit, it hasn't completely lived up to our expectations, but there has been a flurry of activity around people experimenting to see how it can be applied in a consumer way. And, frankly, you know, there are people like DHL who are starting to roll it out in a way that is somewhere between industrial use and consumer in a broad way. So it's moving there. It is nowhere near ready for it yet. >> Leah Hunter here. A thought leader, writer, author, and a new book coming out. I'll give you the final word. What are you up to? What are you going to do after this event? What's next for you? What's the next couple months look like? Obviously, you've got to jam hard on the book, get that done, what else you working on? >> (laughs) I'm an interesting person to ask that question. I produce a television show called Created Here. I'm flying to Austin after this to interview artists and musicians and shoot our next episode of the show. Then we're going to LA and then New York. >> And where are you based out of? >> Me? >> Yeah. >> San Francisco, New York, a little bit Paris, and some New Orleans. >> You're on the plane a lot. >> I am. I like my life. >> Well, you've got a great life, and obviously great work you're doing. Come by TheCUBE studio in Palo Alto, give us an update on what your findings are as you go get that new perspective of art, artistry, artisans are really going to be the craft, we believe that TheCUBE will be the future of intersecting with technology. More exclusive coverage here in Moscone West in San Francisco, this is the Cube's coverage of Samsung Developer Conference. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: From the Fairmont Hotel in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's The Cube. Covering when IOT met AI, the intelligence of things. Brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Rick here with The Cube. We're in downtown San Jose at the Fairmont Hotel at a little show called when IOT Met AI, the Intelligence of Things. Talking about big data, IOT, AI and how those things are all coming together with virtual reality, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, all the fun buzz words, but this is where it's actually happening and we're real excited to have a pioneer in this space. He's Jack McCauley. He was a co-founder at Occulus VR, now spending his time at UC Berkeley as an innovator in residence. Jack welcome. >> Thank you. >> So you've been watching this thing evolve, obviously Occulus, way out front in kind of the VR space and I think augmented a reality in some ways is even more exciting than just kind of pure virtual reality. >> Right. >> So what do you think as you see this thing develop from the early days when you first sat down and started putting this all together? >> Well, I come from a gaming background. That's what I did for 30 years. I worked in video game development, particularly in hardware and things, console hardware. >> That's right, you did the Guitar Hero. >> Guitar Hero. Yeah, that's right. >> We got that one at home. >> I built their guitars and designed and built their guitars for Activision. And when were part of Red Octane, which is a studio. I primarily worked in the studio, not the headquarters, but I did some of the IP work with them too, so, to your question, you know when you produce a product and put it on the market, you never really know how it's going to do. >> Jeff: Right. >> So we make, we made two developer kits, put them out there and they exceeded our expectations and that was very good. It means that there is a market for VR, there is. We produce a consumer version and sales are not what we expected for that particular product. That was designated towards PC gamers and hopefully console games. But what has done well is the mobile stuff has exceeded everyone's mildest expectations. I heard numbers, Gear VR, which is Occulus designed product for me, sold 7 million of those. That's a smash hit. Now, worldwide for phone mounted VR goggles, it's about 20 million and that's just in two years, so that's really intriguing. So, what has happened is it's shifted away from an expensive PC based rig with $700 or whatever it costs, plus $1,500 for the computer to something that costs $50 and you just stick your cell phone in it and that's what people, it doesn't give you the best experience, but that's what has sold and so if I were doing a start-up right now, I would not be working on PC stuff, I'd be working on mobile stuff. >> Jeff: Right. >> And the next thing I think, which will play out of this is, and I think you mentioned it prior to the interview, is the 360 cameras and Google has announced a camera that they're going to come out and it's for their VR 180 initiative, which allows you to see 180 video in stereo with a cell phone strapped to your face. And that's very intriguing. There's a couple of companies out there working on similar products. Lucid Cam, which is a start-up company here has a 180 camera that's very, very good and they have one coming out that's in 4K. They just launched their product. So to answer your question, it looks like what is going to happen is for VR, is that it's a cell phone strapped to your face and a camera somewhere else that you can view and experience. A concert. Imagine taking it to a sporting event where 5,000 people can view your video, 10,000 from your seat. That's very intriguing. >> Yeah, it's interesting I had my first kind of experience just not even 360 or live view, but I did a periscope from the YouTube concert here at Levi Stadium a couple of months ago, just to try it out, I'd never really done it and it was fascinating to watch the engagement of people on that application who had either seen them the prior week in Seattle or were anticipating them coming to the Rose Bowl, I think, you know, within a couple of days, and to have an interaction just based on my little, you know, mobile phone, I was able to find a rail so I had a pretty steady vantage point, but it was a fascinating, different way to experience media, as well as engagement, as well as kind of a crowd interaction beyond the people that happened to be kind of standing in a circle. >> You, what's intriguing about VR 180 is that anybody can film the concert and put the video on YouTube or stream it through their phone. And formerly it would require a $10,000 camera, a stereo camera set up professionally, but can you imagine though that a crowd, you know, sourced sort of thing where the media is sourced by the crowd and anyone can watch it with a mobile phone. That's what's happening, I think, and with Google's announcement, it even that reinforces my opinion anyways that that is where the market will be. It's live events, sporting events. >> Right, it's an experience, right? It all comes back to kind of experience. People are so much more experience drive these days than I think thing driven from everything from buying cars versus taking a new Uber and seeing it over and over and over again. People want the experience, but not necessarily, as the CEO of Zura said, the straps and straddles of ownership, let me have the fun, I don't necessarily want to own it. But I think the other thing that gets less talked about, get your opinion, is really the kind of combination of virtual reality plus the real world, augmented reality. We see the industrial internet of things all the time where, you know, you go take a walk on that factory before you put your goggles on and not only do you see what you see that's actually in front of you, but now you can start to see, it's almost like a heads up display, certain characteristics of the machinery and this and that are now driven from the database side back into the goggles, but now the richness of your observation has completely changed. >> Yes, and in some ways when you think of what Google did with Google Glass, not as well as we had liked. >> But for a first attempt. >> Yeah. They're way ahead of their time and there will come a time when, you know, Snap has their specs, right? Have you seen those? It's not augmented reality, but, there will come a time when you can probably have a manacle on your face and see the kinds of things you need to see if your driving a car for instance that, I mean, a heads up display or a projector projecting right into your retina. So, and, so I think that's the main thing for augmented reality. Will people, I mean, your Pokemon Go, that's kind of a AR game in a way. You look through your cell phone and the character stays fixed on the table or wherever you're looking for it. I mean that uses a mobile device to do that and I can imagine other applications that use a mobile device to do that and I'm aware of people working on things like that right now. >> So do you think that the breakthrough on the mobile versus the PC-based system was just good enough? In being able to just experience that so easily, you know, I mean, Google gave out hundreds and hundreds of thousands of the cardboard boxes, so wow. >> Yeah. Well, it didn't mean that Gear VR didn't move into the market, it did. You know, it did anyways, but to answer your question about AR, you know, I think that, you know, without having good locals, I mean the problem with wearing the Google Glass and the Google cardboard and Gear VR is it kind of makes you sick a little bit and nobody's working on the localization part. Like how to get rid of the nausea effect. I watched a video that was filmed with Lucid Cam at the Pride Parade in San Francisco and I put it on and somebody was moving with the crowd and I just felt nauseous, so that problem probably probably is one I would attempt to attack if I were going to build a company or something like that right now. >> But I wonder too, how much of that is kind of getting used to the format because people when they first put them on for sure, there's like, ah, but you know, if you settle in a little bit and our eyes are pretty forgiving, you get used to things pretty quickly. Your mind can get accustomed to it to a certain degree, but even I get nauseous and I don't get nauseous very easily. >> Okay, so you're title should just be tinkerer. I looked at your Twitter handle. You're building all kinds of fun stuff in your not a garage, but your big giant lab and you're working at Berkeley. What are some of the things that you can share that you see coming down the road that people aren't necessary thinking about that's going to take some of these technologies to the next level. >> I got one for you. So you've heard of autonomous vehicles, right? >> Jeff: Yep, yep. >> And you've heard of Hollow Lens, right. Hollow Lens is an augmented reality device you put on your had and it's got built in localization and it creates what's, it's uses what's know as SLAM or S-L-A-M to build a mesh of the world around you. And with that mesh, the next guy that comes into that virtual world that you mapped will be away ahead. In other words, the map will already exists and he'll modify upon that and the mesh always gets updated. Can you imagine getting that into a self-driving vehicle just for safety's sake, mapping out the road ahead of you, the vehicle ahead of you has already mapped the road for you and you're adding to the mesh and adjusting the mesh, so I think that that's, you know, as far as Hollow Lens is concerned and their localization system, that's going to be really relevant to self-driving cars. Now whether or not it'll be Microsoft's SLAM or somebody else's, I think that that's probably the best, that's the good thing that came out of Hollow Lens and that will bleed into the self-driving car market. It's a big data crunching number and in Jobs, he was actually looking at this a long time ago, like what can we do with self-driving vehicles and I think he had banned the idea because he realized he had a huge computing and data problem. That was 10 years ago. Things have changed. But I think that that's the thing that will possibly come out of, you know, this AR stuff is that localization is just going to be transported to other areas of technology and self-driving cars and so forth. >> I just love autonomous vehicles because everything gets distilled and applied into that application, which is a great application for people to see and understand it's so tangible. >> Yeah, it may change the way we think about cars and we may just not ever own a car. >> I think absolutely. The car industry, it's ownership, it's usage, it's frequency of usage, how they're used. It's not a steel cage anymore for safety as the crash rates go down significantly. I think there's a lot of changes. >> Yeah, you buy a car and it sits for 20 hours a day. >> Right. >> Unutilized. >> All right. Well, Jack I hope maybe I get a chance to come out and check out your lab one time because you're making all kinds of cool stuff. When's that car going to be done? >> I took it upon myself to remodel a house the same time I was doing that, but the car is moving ahead. In September I think I can get it started. Get the engine running and get the power train up and running. Right now I'm working on the electronics and we have an interesting feature on that car that we're going to do an announcement on later. >> Okay, we'll look out for that. We'll keep watching the Twitter. All right, thanks for taking a few minutes. All right, let's check with Cauley. I'm Jeff Rick. You're watching The Cube from When IOT Met AI, the Intelligence of Things in San Jose. We'll be right back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (technological jingle)

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube. Covering Google Cloud Next 17. (ambient music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Palo Alto for a special two days of coverage of Google Next 2017 events in San Francisco. Sold out, 10,000 plus people. Yeah, really, an amazing turn of events. Amazon Web Services Reinvent had 36,000, Google's nipping at their heels, although different, we're going to break down the differences with Google versus Amazon because they're really two different things and again, this is Cube coverage here in Palo Alto studio, getting reaction. Sponsored by Intel, thanks, Intel, for allowing us to continue the wall-to-wall coverage of the key events in the tech industry. Our next guest is Val Bercovici who's the boardmember of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, boardmember. >> That's right. >> Welcome back, you were here last week from Mobile World Congress, great to see you. Silicon contributor, what your reaction to the Google keynote, Google news? Not a lot of news, we saw the SAP, that was the biggest news and the rest were showcasing customers, most of the customers were G Suite customers. >> Yeah, exactly. So, I would say my first reaction is bit of a rough keynote, you know, there's definitely not as quit as much polish as Microsoft had in their heyday and of course, Amazon nowadays in the Cloud era. But what's interesting to me is there's the whole battle around empathy right now. So, the next gen developers and the Clouderati talk about user empathy and that means understanding the workflow of the user and getting the user to consume more of your stuff, you know, Snapchat gets user empathy for the millennial generation but anybody else. Facebook as well. So, you see Google, we emphasize, even the Google Twitter account, it emphasizes developer productivity and they have pretty strong developer empathy. But what AWS has, Amazon with AWS is enterprise empathy, right, they really understand how to package themselves and make themselves more consumable right now for a lot of mainstream enterprises, they've been doing this for three, four years at their Reinvent events now. Whereas Google is just catching up. They've got great developer empathy but they're just catching up on enterprise empathy. Those are the main differences I see. >> Yeah, I think that's an important point, Val, great, great point, I think Amazon certainly has, and I wrote this in my blog post this morning, getting a lot of reaction from that, actually, and some things I want to drill down on the network and security side. Some Google folks DMing me we're going to do that. But really, Amazon's lead is way out front on this. But the rest, you know, call 'em IBM, not in any particular, IBM, Oracle, Google, SAP, others, put Salesforces, we're talking Sass and Adobe, they're all in this kind of pack. It's like a NASCAR, you know, pack and you don't know who's going to slimshot around and get out there. But they all have their own unique use cases, they're using their own products to differentiate. We're hearing Google and again, this is a red flag for me because it kind of smells like they're hiding the ball. G Suite, I get the workplace productivity is a Cloud app, but that's not pure Cloud conversations, if you look at the Gartner, Gartner's recent, last report which I had a chance to get a peek at, there's no mention of Sassifications, Google G Suite's not in there, so the way Cloud is strictly defined doesn't even include Sass. >> Yeah. >> If you're going to include Sass, then you got to include Salesforce in that conversation or Adobe or others. >> Exactly. >> So, this is kind of an optical illusion in my mind. And I think that's something that points to Google's lack of traction on customers in the enterprise. >> This is where behind the scenes, Kubernetes, is so important and why I'm involved with the the CNCF. If anything, the first wave of Clouded option particularly by enterprise was centered around the VM model. And you know, infrastructure's a service based on VMs, Amazon, AWS is the king of that. What we're seeing right now is developers in particular that are developing the next generation of apps, most of them are already on our phones and our tablets and our houses and stuff, which is, you know, all these Echo-style devices. That is a container-based architecture that these next gen applications are based on. And so, Kubernetes, in my mind, is really nothing more than Google's attempt to create as much of a container-based ecosystem at scale so that the natural home for container-based apps will be GCP as opposed to AWS. That's the real long term play in why Google's investing so heavily in Kubernetes. >> Is that counterintuitive? Is that a good thing? I mean, it sounds like they're trying to change the goalpost, if you will, to change the game because we had Joe Arnold on, the founder of Swiftstack and you know, ultimately, you know, Clouds are Clouds and inter-Clouding and multi-Cloud is important. Does Kubernete actually help the industry? Or is that more Google specific in your mind? >> I think it will help the industry but the industry itself is moving so rapidly, we're seeing server-less right now and functions of service, and so, I think the landscape is shifting away from what we would think of as either VM or container-based infrastructure service towards having the right abstractions. What I'm seeing is that, really, even the most innovative enterprises today don't really care about their per minute or per hour cost for a cycle of computer, a byte of, you know, network transferred or stored. They care about big table, big quarry, the natural language processing, visual search, and a whole category of these AI based applications that they want to base their own new revenue-generating products and services based on. So, it's abstraction now as a new battlefield. AWS brings that cult of modularity to it, they're delivering a lot of cool services that are very high level Lambda centered based on really cool modularity, whereas Google's doing it, which is very, very elegant abstraction. It's at the developer level, at the technical level, that's what the landscape is at right now. >> Are you happy with Google's approach because I think Google actually doesn't want to be compared to AWS in a way. I mean, from what I can see from the keynote... >> Only by revenue. (laughs) >> Well, certainly, they're going to win that by throwing G Suite on it but, I mean, this is, again, a philosophy game, right? I mean, Andy Jassy is very customer focused, but they don't have their own Sass app, except for Amazon which they don't count on the Cloud. So, their success is all about customers, building on Amazon. Google actually has its own customer and they actually include that in, as does Microsoft with Office 365. >> Yeah, that's the irony, is if we go back to enterprise empathy I think it's Microsoft has that legacy of understanding the enterprise better than all the others. And they're beginning to leverage that, we're definitely seeing, as you're sliding comfortably to a number two position behind AWS, but it really does come back to, you know, are you going to lead with a propeller head lead in technology which Google clearly has, they've got some of the most superior technology, we were rattling off some the speeds and feeds that one of their product managers shared with you this morning. They've had amazing technology, that's unquestioned. But they do have also is this reputation of almost flying in rarefied air when it comes to enterprises. >> What do you mean by that? >> What I mean by that is that most enterprise IT organizations, even the progressive ones, have a hard time relating to Google technology. It's too far out there, it's too advanced, in some cases, they just can't understand it. They've never been trained in college courses on it or even post-grad courses on it. MBA is older than three years old, don't even reference the Cloud. So, there's a lot of training, a lot of knowledge that has to be, you know, conducted on the enterprise side. AWS is packaged, that technology there is the modularity in such a way that's more consumable. Not perfect, but more consumable than any other Cloud render and that's why, with an early head start, they've got the biggest enterprise traction today. >> Yeah, I mean, and I'm really bullish on Google, I love the company, I've been following them since '98, a lot of friends here at Palo Alto, a lot of Googlers living in my neighborhood, they're all around us. Larry Page, seen him around town. Great, great company and very, always been kind of like an academic, speed of academic. Very strong, technically, and that is, clearly, they're playing that card, "We have the technology." So, I would just say that, to counter that argument would be if Google, I'm Google, I'm on the team, the guy in green and you know, lookit, what I want to do is, we want to be the intel for the Cloud. So, the hard and top is we don't really care if people are trained, should be so easy to use, training doesn't matter. So, I mean, that's really more of an arrogant approach, but I don't think Google's being arrogant in the Cloud. I think that ship has sailed, I think Google has kind of been humbled in the sense, in recognizing that the enterprise is hard, they're checking the boxes. They have a partner program. >> Yeah, you're right, I mean, if you take a look at their customers today, you've got Spotify, and Snap, and Evernote, and you know, Pokemon Go and Niantic, all of the leading edge technology companies that have gone mainstream that are, you know, startup oriented Snap, of course. They're on Google Cloud. But that's not enough, you know, the enterprise, I did a seminar just last week promoting Container World with Jim Forge from ADP. The enterprise is not homogeneous, the enterprise is complicated. The L word legacy is all over, what they have to budget and plan for. So, the enterprise is just a lot more complicated than Google will acknowledge right now. And I believe if they were to humanize some of their advanced technology and package it and price it in such a way that AWS, you know, where they're seeing success, they'll accelerate their inevitable sort of leap to being one of those top three contenders. >> So, I'm just reading some of my, I'm putting together because for the Google folks, I'm going to interview them, just prepping for this, but just networking alone, isolating Cloud resources. That's hard, right? So, you know, virtual network in the Cloud, Google's got the virtual network. You get multiple IP addresses, for instance, ability to move network interfaces and IPs between instances, and AS networking support. Network traffic logging, virtual network peering, manage NAT gateways, subnet level filtering, IP V stick support, use any CIDR including RC 1918. Multiple network interface instances, I mean, this is complicated! (laughs) It's not easy so, you know, I think the strategy's going to be interesting to see how, does Google go into the point to point solution set, or they just say, "This is what we got, take it or leave it," and try to change the game? >> That's where they've been up until now and I don't think it's working because they have very formidable competitors that are not standing still. So, I think they're going to have to keep upping their game, again, not in terms of better technology but in terms of better packaging, better accessibility to their technology. Better trust, if you will, overseas. Cloud is a global game, it's not US only. And trust is so critical, there's a lot of skepticism in Europe today with the latest Wikileaks announcements, or Asia Today around. Any American based Cloud provider truly being able to isolate and protect my citizen's data, you know, within my borders. >> I think Google Cloud has one fatal flaw that I, looking at all the data, is that and the analysis that we've been looking at with Bookie Bontine and our research is that there's one thing that jumps out at me. I mean, the rest are all, I look at as, you know, Google's got such great technologies, they can move up fast, they can scale up to code. But the one thing that's interesting is their architecture, the way they handle their architecture is they can't let customers dictate data where data's stored. That is a huge issue for them. And if, to your point, if a user in Germany is using an app and it's got to stay in Germany. >> This is back to the empathy disconnect, right? As an abstraction layer for a developer, what I want is exactly what Google offers. I don't want to care as a developer where the bits and bytes are stored, I want this consistent, uniform API, I want to do cool stuff with the data. The operation side, particularly within legal parameters, regulatory parameters, you know, all sorts of other costs and quality assurance parameters, they really care about where that data is stored, and that's where having more enterprise empathy, and their thinking, and their offerings, and their pricing, and their packaging will leapfrog Google to where they want to be today. >> Val Bercovici, great analysis, I mean, I would totally agree just to lock that in, their developer empathy is so strong. And their operational one needs to be, they got a blind spot there where they got to work on that. And this is interesting because people who don't know Google are very strong operations, it's not like they don't have any ops chops. (Val laughs) They're absolutely in the five nines, they are awesome operations. But they've been operations for themselves. >> Exactly. >> So, that's the distinction you're getting at, right? >> Absolutely. >> Okay, so the next question I got to ask you is back to the developer empathy, 'cause I think it's a really big opportunity for Google. So, pointing out the fatal flaw in my opinions in the data locality thing. But I think the opportunity for Google to change the game, using the developer community opportunity because you mentioned the Kubernetes. There is a huge, open source, I don't want to say transformation but an evolution to the next generation, you're starting to see machine learning and AI start to tease out the leverage of not just data now. Data's become so massive now, you have data sets. That can be addressable and be treated like software programs. So, data as code becomes a new dynamic with AI. So, with AI, with open source, you're seeing a lot of activity, CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, folks should check that out, that's an amazing group, analytics foundation. This is an awesome opportunity for Google to use Kubernetes as saying, "Hey, we will make orchestration of application workloads." >> Absolutely. >> This is something, Amazon's been great with open source, but they don't get a lot of love... >> Amazon has a blind spot on containers, let's not, you know, let's not call, you know, let's call it the speed of speed, let's not, you know, beat around the bush, they do have a blind spot around containers. It is something they strategically have to get a hold of, they've got some really interesting proprietary offerings. But it's not a natural home for a Docker workflow, it's not a natural home for a Kubernetes workflow yet. And it's something they have to work on and AI as a use case could not be more pertinent to business today because it's that quote, you know, "The future is here "but unevenly distributed." That's exactly where AI is today, the businesses that are figuring it out are really leaping ahead of their competitors. >> We're getting some great tweets, my phone's blowing up. Val, you've got great commentary. I want to bring up, so, I've been kind of over the top with the comment that I've been making. It's maybe mischaracterized but I'll say it again. There seems to be a Cold War going on inside the communities between, as Kubernetes have done, we've seen doc, or we've seen Docker Containers be so successful in this service list, server list vision, which is absolutely where Cloud Native needs to be in that notion of, you know, separating out fiscal gear and addressability, making it completely transparent, full dev ops, if you will. To who's going to own the orchestration and where does it sit on the stack? And with Kubernetes, to me, is interesting is that it tugs at some sacred cows in the container world. >> Yes. >> And it opens up the notion of multi-Cloud. I mean, assume latency can be solved at some point, but... >> It's actually core religion, what impressed me about he whole Kubernetes community, and community is its greatest strength, by the way, is the fact that they had a religion on multi-Cloud from day one. It wasn't about, "We'll add it later "'cause we know it's important," it's about portability and you know, even Docker lent that to the community. Portability is just a number one priority and now portability, at scale, across multiple Clouds, dynamically orchestrated, not through, you know, potential for human error, human interventions we saw last week. That the secret sauce there to stay. >> I think not only is, a Cold War is a negative connotation, but I think it's an opportunity to be sitting in the sun, if you will, on the beach with a pina colada because if you take the Kubernetes trend that's got developer empathy with portability, that speaks to what developers want, I want to have the ability to write code, ship it up to the network, and have it integrate in nicely and seamlessly so, you know, things can self-work and do all that. And AI can help in all those things. Connecting with operational challenges. So, what is, in your mind, that intersection? Because let's just say that Kubernetes is going to develop a nice trajectory which it has now and continues to be a nice way to galvanize a community around orchestration, portability, etc. Where does that intersect with some of the challenges and needs for operational effectiveness and efficiency? >> So, the dirtiest secret in that world is data gravity, rigtht? It's all well and fine to have workload portability across, you know, multiple instances and a cluster across multiple Clouds, so to speak. But data has weight, data has mass and gravity, and it's very hard to move particularly at scale. Kubernetes only in the last few releases with a furious pace in evolution, one four, one five, has a notion of provisioning persistent volumes, this thing they affectionately called pet sets that are not a stateful sets, I love that name. >> Cattle. >> Exactly. (laughs) So, Google is waking up and Kubernetes, I should say, in particular is waking up to the whole notion of managing data is really that last mile problem of Cloud portability and operational maturity. And planning around data gravity and overcoming where you can data gravity through meta-operational procedures is where this thing is going to really take off. >> I think that's where Google, I like Google's messaging, I like their posture on machine learning AI, I think that's key. But Amazon has been doing AI, they've got machine learning as a service, they've had Kineses for a while. In fact, Redshift and Kineses were their fastest growing services before Aurora became the big thing that they had. So, I think, you know, they're interested in the jets, with the trucks, and the snowmobile stuff. So I think certainly, Amazon's been doing that data and then rolling in as some sort of AI. >> And they've been humanizing it better, right? I can relate to some of Amazon's offering and sometimes I have it in the house. You know, so, the packaging and just the consumerability of these Amazon services today is ahead of where Google is and Google arguably has the superior technology. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, I was laying out my analysis of Google versus Amazon but I think it's not fair to try to compare them too much because Google is just making their opening moves on the chessboard. Because they had Diane Green, got to give her credit, she's really starting behind. And that's been talked about but they are serious, they're going to get there. The question is what does an enterprise need to do? So, your advice to enterprise would be what? Stick with the use cases that are either Google specific apps or Cloud Native, where do you go, how do you...? >> I would say to remember the lock-in days of the Linux vendors and even Microsoft in their heyday and definitely think multi-Cloud, you know, Cloud first is fine. But think, we need data first in a Cloud before I think a particular Cloud first. Always keep your options open, seek the highest levels of abstraction, particularly as you're innovating early on and fast failing in the Cloud. Don't go low right away, go low later on when you're operationalizing and scaled and looking to squeeze efficiencies out of a new product or service. >> Don't go low, you mean don't go low in the stack? >> Don't go low in the stack, exactly. Start very high in the stack. >> What would be an example? >> Lambda, you know, taking advantage of, if we bring in Kineses, IOT workflows, all sorts of sensor data coming in from the Edge. Don't code that for efficiency day one and switch to Kafka or something else that's more sophisticated, but keep it really high level as events triggering off, whether it's the IOTICK in the sensor inputs or whether it's S3 events, Dynamo, DB events. Write your functions that are very, very high level. >> Yeah. >> Get the workflows right. Pay a bit more money up front, pay premium for the fast... >> Well, there's also Bootstraps and the Training Channel Digimation, so, with Google, pick some things that are known out there. But you mentioned IOT and one of the things I was kind of disappointed in the keynote today, there wasn't much talk about IOT. You're not seeing IOT in the Google story. >> That may come up in tomorrow's keynote, it may come up tomorrow in a more technical context. But you're right, it's an area both Agar and AWS have a monster of a lead right now, as they've had really good SDKs out there to be able to create workflows without even being an expert in some of the devices that you know, you might own and maintain. >> Google's got some differentiation, they've got something, I'll highlight one that I like that I think is really compelling. Tensor flow. Tensor flow as got a lot of great traction and then Intel is writing chips with their Skylake product that actually runs much faster silicon... >> What was that, Nvidia? You know, it's a GPU game as much as a CPU game when it comes to machine learning. And it's just... >> What does that mean for you? I mean, that's exciting, you smile on that, I get geeked out on that because if you think about that, if you can have a relationship between the silicon and software, what does it mean from an impact standpoint? Do you think that's going to be a good accelerant for the game? >> Massive accelerant, you know, and this is where we get into sort of more rarefied air with Elon Musk's quote around the fact we'll need universal income for society. There a lot of static tasks that are automated today. There's more and more dynamic tasks now that these AI algorithms, through machine learning, can be trained to conduct in a very intelligent manner. So, more and more task based work all over the world, including in a robotic context but also call centers, stock brokerage, for example, it's been demonstrated that AI ML algorithms are superior to humans nine times out of ten in terms of recommending stocks. So, there's a lot of white collars, while it's blue collared work that just going to be augmented and then eliminated with these technologies and the fact that you have major players, economies at scales such as Intel and Nvidia and so forth accelerating that, making it affordable, fast, low power in certain edge context. That's, you know, really good for the industry. >> So, day one of two days of coverage here with Google, just thoughts real quick on what Google needs to do to really conquer the enterprise and really be credible, viable, successful, number two, or leader in the enterprise? >> I'm a big fan, you know, I've had personal experiences with fast following as opposed to leading and innovating sometimes in terms of getting market traction. I think they should unabashedly, unashamedly examine what Microsoft or what Amazon are doing right in the Cloud. Because you know, simple things like conducting a bit more of a smooth keynote, Google doesn't seem to have mastered it yet, right now in the Cloud space. And it's not rocket science, but shamelessly copying what works, shamelessly copying the packaging and the humanization that some of the advanced technologies that Amazon and Microsoft have done in particular. And then applying their technical superiority, you know, their uptime availability advantages, their faster networks, their strong consistency which is a big deal for developers across their regions. Emphasizing their strengths after they package and make their technology more consumable. As opposed to leading where the tech specs. >> And you have a lot of experience in the enterprise, table stakes out there that are pretty obvious that they need to check the boxes on, and would be what? >> A very good question, I would say, first and foremost, you really have to focus on more, you know, transparent pricing. Think something that is a whole black art in terms of optimizing your AWS usage in this industry that's formed around that. I think Google has and they enact blogs advertising a lot of advantages they have in the granularity, in the efficiency of their auto scaling up and down. But businesses don't really map that, they don't think of that first even though it can save them millions of dollars as they do move to Cloud first approaches. >> Yeah and I think Google got to shake that academic arrogance, in a way, that they've had a reputation for. Not that that's a bad thing, I'll give you an example, I love the fact that Google leads a lot of price performance on many levels in the Cloud, yet their SLAs are kind of wonky here and there. So, it's like, okay, enterprises like SLAs. You got to nail that. And then maybe keep their price a little high here, it can make more money, but... So, you were saying, is that enterprise might not get the fact that it's such a good deal. >> It's like enterprise sales 101, you talk about, you know, the operational benefits but you also talk about financial benefits and business benefits. Catching into those three contexts in terms of their technical superiority would do them a world of good as they seek more and more enterprise opportunities. >> Alright, Val Bercovici, CTO, also CTO, and also on the board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation known as CNCF, a newly formed organization, part of the Linux Foundation. Really looking at the orchestration, looking at the containers, looking at Kubernetes, looking at a whole new world of app enablement. Val, thanks for the company, great to see you. Turning out to be guest contributor here on the Cube studio, appreciate his time. This is the Cube, two days of live coverage. Hope to have someone from Google on the security and network side coming in and calling in, we're going to try to set that up, a lot of conversations happening around that. Lot of great stuff happening at Google Next, we've got all the wall-to-wall coverage, reporters on the ground in San Francisco as well as analysts. And of course, in studio reaction here in Palo Alto. We'll be right back. (ambient music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Everyone, welcome to our special Mobile World Congress 2017 coverage. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE for two days of wall-to-wall coverage. Monday and Tuesday, February 27th and 28th, and we have on the phone right now, Lynn Comp, who's the Senior Director of the Network Platforms Group within Intel, part of the team doing the whole network transformation. The big announcements that went out prior to Mobile World Congress and hitting the ground on Monday and Tuesday of all next week in Barcelona. Lynn, great to have you on the phone. Thanks for taking the time to walk through some of the big announcements. >> Lynn: Thanks, John, for having us. It's a really exciting Mobile World Congress. We're seeing more and more of the promise of the next generation networks starting to take solution form from ingredient form a couple years ago, so it's a great, great time to be in this business. >> So 5G is happening now. You're seeing it in the network and the cloud and at the client, that you guys use the word "client" but essentially, it's the people with their smartphones and devices, wearables, AIs, and now the client is now cars, and flying drones and potentially, whatever else is connected to the Internet as an Internet of things. This has been a really big moment and I think I want to take some time to kind of unpack with you some of the complexities and kind of what's going on under the hood because 4G to 5G is a huge step up in the announcement and capabilities, and it's not just another device. There's really unique intellectual property involved, there's more power, there's a market leadership in the ecosystem, and really is a new way for service providers to achieve profitability, and get those products that are trying to connect, that need more power, more bandwidth, more capabilities. Can you take a minute just to talk about the key announcements impacting Mobile World Congress from Intel's perspective this week in your area? >> Lynn: Yeah, so we had a group of announcements that came out. Everything from solutions labs where operators are invited in to work with Nokia and Intel starting out to start working through what does it mean to try and manage a network that includes unlicensed and licensed spectrum and all these different usage models, very different model for them, to Ericsson, an initiative with GE and Honeywell and Intel, that is in Innovator's Initiative, where companies are invited to come in in the ecosystem. An early start working through what does it mean to have this kind of network capability? If you think what happened, 2G, 3G, to 4G, you start looking at the iPhone, been around for 10 years, and you've seen how the uses have changed, and how application developers have come up with completely new ways of doing things, like, who would have thought about crowdsourcing traffic patterns for driving directions? We all wanted it years ago, but it was just recently that we were able to have that on a smartphone. They're trying to unleash that with pretty unique companies. I mean, GE and Honeywell, UC Berkeley, you wouldn't necessarily think of them as being first on innovating new usage models for a wireless network, but with something like 5G, with all of these diverse use cases, you end up with a completely different ecosystem, really wanting to come in early and take advantage of the potential that's there. >> Lynn, talk about this end-to-end store because one of the things that got hidden in all the news, and certainly SiliconANGLE covered it, as well as, there was a great article in Fortune about it, but kind of talk about more of the 5G versus Qualcomm, that was kind of the big story that, the battle of the chips, if you will, and the big 5G angle there, but there's more to it and one thing that caught my attention was this end-to-end architecture, and it wasn't just Intel. You guys are a big part of that as an ingredient, but it's not just Intel, and what does that mean, end-to-end, 'cause I can see the wireless pieces and overlaying connecting devices, but where's the end-to-end fit in? Can you give some color on that? >> Lynn: Absolutely. You know what's really fascinating is you've got Intel and we've been in the cloud and heard of the genesis of what would become the consumer and the enterprise cloud from the very start, and so what we've been doing in working in that end-to-end arena is taking things like virtualization, which has allowed these service providers and enterprises to slice up compute resources and instead of having something that's completely locked and dedicated on one workload, they can create slices of different applications that all sit on the same hardware and share it, and so if you look, years ago, many of the service providers, cloud and enterprise, they were looking at utilization rights as maybe 15% of the compute power of a server, and now, a lot of them are aiming for 75 to 85% utilization, and that's just a crazy amount of (mumbles) so bringing that to this market that in traditional, we had single purpose boxes, there's various detections for one thing, but that creates a business challenge if you need to do more than one thing, so really what we're showing, for example, at Mobile World Congress, it's something that we call FlexRAN, and it's an example of how to run a radio area network on a standard server on the technology, and it does implement that network slicing. Its's very similar to the virtualization and the compute slicing, but taking advantage of it to use different bandwidths and different rates for different scenarios, whether IoT or smartphones, or even connected cars. >> So I got to ask you about, the big question I get is, first of all, thanks for that, but the big question I get is, this isn't turning into an app show, we're Mobile World Congress, and apps are everything from cars to just phone apps to network apps, et cetera, and the question that everyone's asking is, we need more bandwidth, and certainly, 5G addresses that, but the service providers are saying, "Do we really need all that power? And "When is it coming?" "What's the timing of all this?" So, specific question to you is, Lynn, is what is Intel doing to accelerate the network transformation for the service providers to get 5G ready, 'cause that seems to be the main theme as the orientation of where the progress bar is relative to is it ready for primetime, is it here and now, is it out in the future, is this kind of a pre-announcement, so there's kind of some confusion. Clarify that up. Where's the progress bar and how is Intel accelerating network transformation for folks in the service provider vis-a-vis 5G-ready? >> Lynn: So there's a couple things. So let me start with the accelerating piece because it also relates to the end-to-end piece. When you look at the way that networks have been constructed all the way, end-to-end, it has traditionally been a very, very limited set of solution providers, and they tend to survive pretty granular, pretty high-granular functions, so the appliance, the full appliance, software, hardware, everything, and I would look at some of the smartphones up until you could put new applications on it, as appliances, it did voice, and so, we have this service provider begging us for many years, "Give us an ecosystem that looks like server and PC. "I want a building block ecosystem. "I want to be able to take advantage of fast and free wires "in software and hardware. "I need people to come innovate, "like they go innovate on Amazon," and so building an ecosystem, so Intel Network Builders is something that was started about three years ago, and we had, oh, half dozen to maybe 12 different vendors who were part of it, mostly software vendors. Since then, we have 250-plus number and they range from service providers like GT and Telefonica all the way to the hardware vendors like Cisco and Ericsson, and then the software vendors that you would expect. So that's one thing that we've been really working, for a few years now, on giving these operators building block approaches, supporting them in open source. We had a big announcement from AT&T, talking about how they're putting about seven millions lines of code into the Linux Foundation, and its code has been deployed in their network already, so pretty big departure from normal practice, and then today, we had an announcement that came out, where not only did AT&T and Bell Canada and Orange in that community. Now we've got China Mobile, China Telecom, and a project called Open-O, also joining forces. If you were to map out the topics for these operators, we've got almost all of the top ten. They are joining this project to completely change the way that they run their networks, and that translates into the kind of innovation, the kind of applications that consumers love, that they're already getting out of the cloud, now they can begin to get that piece of innovation and creativity in the network as well. So the building block approach seems to be your strategy for the ecosystem. What's the challenge to keep that rolling and cohesive? How are you guys going to foster that growth on the ecosystem? You guys going to be doing a lot of joint marketing, funding, projects, and (chuckles) how are you going to foster that continuing growth? >> Lynn: Well there's a couple, it's such an opportunity-rich environment right now. Even things that you would assume would be normal and kind of standard practice, like standardized benchmarking, because you want apples-to-apples performance comparison. Well that's something that this industry really hasn't had. We've done very conceptualized testing, so we're working with the operators in a project called OPNSG to make sure that the operators have a uniform way, even if it's synthetic benchmark, but they at least understand this synthetic benchmark has this kind of performance, so they start really being able to translate and have the vendors do comparisons on paper, and they can actually do better comparisons without having to do six months of testing, so that's a really big deal. The other thing that I do want to also say about 5G is we're in a pre-standards world right now. ITU and 3GPP will have standards dropped in 2018 and 2020 is when it will be final, but every time that you're looking at a new wireless standard, there's a lot of pretrials that are happening, and that's because you want to test before you state everything has to work a specific way, so there was a trial just announced in December, with Erisson, AT&T in Austin, Texas in the Intel offices, and so if you happen to be in that office, you're starting to be able to experiment with what you could possibly get out of 5G. You'll see more of that with the Olympics in 2018 and 2020, where you've got, Japan and Korea have said we're going to have 5G at those Olympics. >> So I got to ask you some of the questions that we are going to have some guests on here in theCUBE in the Palo Alto coverage around NFV, network function virtualization, plays right into the software-defined networking virtualization world, so why is NFV and SDN so vital to the network transformation? Why now and what's happening in those two areas, and what's the enabler? >> Lynn: The enabler really started about 10 years ago, the real inspiration for it, when we were all in a world of packet processing engines and network processors, and we had some people in our research labs that realized that a lot of the efficiency in doing packet processing quickly came from parallelism, and we knew there were about two or three years to wait, but that was when multi-core came out, and so this thing called data plane development kit was born. We've referred to it as DPDK. It's now an industry organization, not an Intel invention anymore. The industry's starting to foster it. Now is really when the operators realized, "I can run a network on a general purpose processor." (coughs) Excuse me, so they can use cores for running operating systems and applications, of course, they always do that for compute cores, but they can also use the compute cores for passing packets back and forth. The line rates that we're getting are astonishing. 160 gigabits per second, which at the time, we were getting six million packets per second. Very unimpressive 10 years ago, but now, for many of those applications, we're at line rate, so that allows you to then separate the hardware and the software, which is where virtualization comes in, and when you do that, you aren't actually embedding software and hardware together in creating an appliance that, if you needed to do a software update, you might as well update the hardware, too, 'cause there's absolutely no new software load that can happen unless you're in an environment with virtualization or something like containers. So that's why NFV, network function virtualization is important. Gives the operator the ability to use general purpose processors for more than one thing, and have the ability to have future proofing of workloads where a new application or a new use becomes really popular, you don't have to issue new hardware, they just need to spin up the new virtual machine and be able to put function in it. >> So that, I got-- >> Lynn: If you went back and, we were talking about 5G and all of this new way of managing the network, now management in orchestration, it's really important but SDN is also really critical, both for cloud and for comm, because it gives you one map of the connections on the network, so you know what is connected where, and it gives you the ability to remotely change how the servers or how the hardware is connected together. If you were going to ask the CIO, "What's your biggest problem today?" they would tell you that it's almost impossible for them to be able to spin up a fully functional, new application that meets all the security protocols because they don't have a network map of everything that's connected to everything. They don't really have an easy way to be able to issue a command and then have all of the reconfigurations happen. A lot of the information's embedded in router tables. >> Yeah. >> Lynn: So it makes it very, very hard to take advantage of a really complicated network connection map, and be agile. That's where SDN comes in. It just kind of like a command control center, whereas NFV gives them the ability to have agility and spin up new functions very quickly. >> Yeah, and certainly that's where the good security part of the action is. Lynn, I want to get your final thoughts on the final question is this Mobile World Congress, it really encapsulates years and years in the industry of kind of a tipping point, and this is kind of my observation, and I want to get your thoughts on this and reaction to it, is the telcos and the service providers are finally at a moment where there's been so much pressure on the business model. We heard this, you can go on back many, many years ago, "Oh, over the top, " and you're starting to see more and more pressure. This seems to be the year that people have a focus on seeing a straight and narrow set of solutions, building blocks and a ecosystem that poised to go to the next level, where there can be a business model that actually can scale, whether it's scaling the edge, or having the core of the network work well, and up and down the stack. Can you talk about the key challenges that these service providers have to do to address that key profitability equation that being a sustainable entity rather than being the pipes? >> Lynn: Well it comes down to being able to respond to the needs of the user. I will refer to a couple demos that we have in the data center section of our booth, and one of them is so impressive to China Telecom that have put together on complete commercial off-the-shelf hardware that a cloud vendor might use. A demo that shows 4K video running from a virtualized, fixed wireline connection, so one of the cable kind of usage. Now 4K video goes over a virtualized environment from a cable-like environment, to what we call virtual INF, and that's the way that you get different messages passed between different kinds of systems. So INF is wireless, so they've got 4K video from cable out to a wireless capability, running in a virtualized environment at performance in hardware that can be used in the cloud, it could be used in communication service providers 'cause it's general purpose. That kind of capability gives a company like China Telecom the flexibility they need, so with 5G, it's the usage model for 5G that's most important. Turns out to be fixed wireless, because it's so expensive for them to deploy in fiber, well, they have the ability to do it and they can spin it up, maybe not in real time, but certainly, it's not going to take a three-month rollout. >> Yes, and-- >> Lynn: So hopefully, that gives you one example. >> Well that's great enablement 'cause in a lot of execution, well, I thought it gave me one more idea for a question, so since I have my final, final question for you is, what are you most excited about 'cause you sounded super excited with that demo. What other exciting things are happening in the Intel demo area from Intel that's exciting for you, that you could share with the folks listening and watching? >> Lynn: So, I used to never be a believer in augmented reality. (John chuckling) I thought, who's going to walk around with goggles, it's just silly, (coughs) it seemed to me like a toy and maybe I shouldn't admit that on a radio show but I became a believer, and I started to really understand how powerful it could be when Pokemon Go took over all the world in over the summer, to this, an immersive experience, and it's sort of reality, but you're interacting with a brand, or in the booth, we have a really cool virtual reality demo and it was with Nokia next and it's showing 5G network transformation. The thing about virtual reality, we have to really have low latency for it to feel real, quote-unquote, and so, it harnesses the power that we can see just emerging with 5G, and then we get this really great immersive experience, so that, I think, is one that innovate how popular brands like Disney or Disney World or Disneyland, that immersive experience, so I think we're just starting to scratch the surface on the opportunities there. >> Lynn, thanks so much for spending the time. Know you got to go and run. Thanks so much for the commentary. We are low latency here inside theCUBE, bringing you all the action. It's a good title for a show, low latency. Really fast, bringing all the action. Lynn, thanks so much for sharing the color and congratulations on your success at Mobile World Congress and looking forward to getting more post-show, post-mortem after the event's over. Thanks for taking the time. We'll be back with more coverage of Mobile World Congress for a special CUBE live in studio in Palo Alto, covering all the action in Barcelona on Monday and Tuesday, 27th and 28th. I'm John Furrier. Wrap it with more after this short break, thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music) (bright electronic music)

>> We're here, about to go live, here in a selfie on the pre Silicon Valley Friday Show, about to go live for our show, for some live Friday. We've got a great lineup, it's on my Twitter. Donald Trump and all his viral tweets and now there's an algorithm out there that creates a shorting stock called Trump and Dump, we're going to be talking to the inventor of that new app. Bunch of other great stuff, controversy around Silicon Valley and Intel, controversy on Google, and we'll be watching a great show, well, hopefully you'll be watching. >> Male Announcer: Live, from Cube headquarters in Palo Alto, California it's the Silicon Valley Friday Show, with John Furrier. (serene techno music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Silicon Valley Friday Show, I'm John Furrier, we are here live in Palo Alto, California for the Silicon Valley Friday Show every Friday morning we broadcast what's going on in Silicon Valley, what's going on in the streets, we call up people and find out what's going on, this show we've got a great lineup. We're going to talk about, I'll say, the news, Twitter, but we've got this fun segment where we have an algorithm, a bot, an AI bot that goes out there and takes all of Donald Trump's tweets and creates a shorting of the stock and creates making money, apparently, Donald Trump's tweets do move the market. We're going to talk about Snapchat, Snap Inc's IPO, and a refiling and some controversy going around that. Also, controversy around Intel Corporation that just announced a fab plant in Arizona and the CEO is in the White House making the announcement, giving the impression that Donald Trump was all behind this, turns out the CEO is a Republican and supports Donald Trump, when apparently this has been in the works for multiple years, so, not sure that's going to be a game changer for Trump but certainly Intel's taking advantage of the schmooze factor and the PR stunt that has people in Silicon Valley up in arms. Obviously, Intel is pro-immigration, bringing people in, obviously, Andy Grove was an immigrant, legend of Intel. And we have also tons of stuff going on, we're going to preview Mobile World Congress the big show in Barcelona at the end of the month. We're doing a two day special here, live in Pal Alto, we're going to do a special, new Silicon Valley version of Mobile World Congress. We'll give you a preview, we're going to talk to some analysts. And also, the fake news, fake accuracy, and all the stuff that's going on, what is fake news? What is inaccurate news? Is there a difference? Does it matter? It certainly does, we have an opinion on that so, great show lineup. First, is actually Twitter earnings are out and they kind of missed and hit their up on the monthly active uniques by two million people. A total of I think 300 million people are using the number here, just on my notes here says, that there are up to 319 million active, monthly active users. And of course, Trump has been taking advantage of Twitter and the Trump bump did not happen for Twitter, although some say Trump kept it alive. But Trump is using Twitter. And he's been actively on Twitter and is causing a lot of people, we've talked about it many times on the show, but the funniest thing that we've seen, and probably the coolest thing that's interesting is that there's an entrepreneur out there, an agency guy named Brian, Ben Gaddis, I'm sorry, president of T3. He's a branding guy, created viral videos on NPR, all over the news, went viral, he created an AI chatbot that essentially takes Donald Trump's tweets, analyzes any company mentioned and then instantly shorts the stock of that company. And apparently it's working, so we're going to take a look at that. We're also going to talk to him and find out what's going on. We're going to have Ben Rosenbaum on, we're going to have someone from Intel on, we have a lot of great guests, so let's take a look at this clip of the Trump and Dump and then we're going to talk to Ben right after. >> Announcer: T3 noticed something interesting about Twitter lately, particularly when this guy gets hold of it. Anytime a company mentions moving to Mexico or overseas or just doing something bad, he's on it, he tweets, the stock tanks. Tweet, tank. Tweet, tank. Tweet, tank. Everyone's talking about how to make sense of all this. T3 thought the unpredictability of it created a real opportunity. Meet the Trump and Dump automated trading platform. Trump and Dump is a bot powered by a complex algorithm that helps us short stocks ahead of the market. Here's how. Every time he tweets, the bot analyzes the tweet to see if a publicly traded company is mentioned. Then, the algorithm runs an instant sentiment analysis of the tweet in less than 20 milliseconds. It figures, positive or negative. A negative tweet triggers the bot to short the stock. Like earlier this month, his Toyota tweet immediately tanked the stock. But the Trump and Dump bot was out ahead of the market. It shorted the second after his tweet. As the stock tanked, we closed our short and we made a profit, huge profit. Oh, and we donated our profits here. So now, when President Trump tweets, we save a puppy. It's the Trump and Dump automated trading platform. Twitter monitoring, sentiment analysis, complex algorithms, real time stock trades. All fully automated, all in milliseconds. And all for a good cause. From your friends at T3. >> Okay, we're back here in Silicon Valley Friday Show, I'm John Furrier and you just saw the Trump and Dump, Trump and Dump video and the creator, that is Ben Gaddis on the phone, president of T3, a privately owned think tank focused on branding. Ben, thanks for joining us today. >> Thanks for having me, John. Excited to talk with you. >> So, big news NPR had on their page, which had the embed on there and it went viral. Great video, but first talk about the motivation, what's going on behind this video? This is very cool, explain to the folks out there what this Trump and Dump video is about, why did you create it, and how does it work? >> So, we had just like, I think, almost everyone in the United States, we were having a conversation about what do you do with the fact that President Trump is tweeting and tweeting about these companies, and in many cases negatively. So we saw articles talking about it and actually one day a guy in our New York office came up with this idea that we ought to follow those tweets in real time and if he mentions a publicly traded company negatively, short the stock. And so, we kicked that idea around over slack and in about 30 minutes we had an idea for the platform. And about two days later one of our engineers had actually built it. And so what the platform does is it's really actually simple yet complex. It listens to every tweet that the president puts out and then it does two things: it determines if there's a publicly traded company mentioned and if there is, and it actually does sentiment analysis in real time, so, in about 20 milliseconds, it can tell if the tweet is positive or negative. If it's negative, we've seen the stocks typically go down and we short sell that stock. And so, the profit that we develop from that, then we donate it to the ASPCA and then hopefully we save a puppy or two in the process. >> Yeah, and that's key, I think that's one thing I liked about this was you weren't arbitraging, you weren't like a real time seller like these finance guys on Wall Street, which by the way, have all these complex trading algorithms. Yours is very specific, the variables are basically Donald Trump, public company, and he tends to be kind of a negative Tweeter so, mostly to do with moving to Mexico or some sort of you know, slam or bullying kind of Tweet he does. And which moves the market, and this is interesting though, because you're teasing out something clever and cool on the AI kind of side of life and you know, some sort of semantic bot that essentially looks at some context and looks at the impact. But this is kind of the real world we're living in now, these kinds of statements from a president of the United States, or anyone who's in a position of authority, literally moves the market, so you're not doing it to make money you're doing it to prove a point which is that the responsibility here is all about getting exposed in the sense that you got to be careful of what you say on Twitter when you're the president of the United States. I mean, if it was me saying it, I mean, I'm not going to move the market but certainly, you know, the press who impact large groups of people and certainly the president does that so, did you guys have that in mind when you were thinking about this? >> Well, we did. I mean, I think, you know, our goal was, this is what we do for a living, we help big brands monitor all their digital presences and build digital strategy. So, we're already monitoring sentiment around Twitter and around social platforms so, it's pretty core to what we do. But we're also looking at things that are happening in pop culture and societally, what kind of impact social might have on business. And so, the fact that we're able to take an action and deliver a social action, and deliver a real business outcome is pretty core to what we do. What's different here and what's so unique is the fact that we've never really seen things like, policy, whether it's monetary policy, or just general policy be distributed through one platform like Twitter and have such a big impact. So, we think it's kind of a societal shift that is sort of the new norm. That, I don't know that if everyone has figured out what to do with yet and so our goal is to experiment and decide one, can we consume the information fast enough to take an action? And then how do we build through AI platforms that allow us to be smarter in the world that we're living in today that is very, very unpredictable. >> We have Ben Gaddis, as president of T3 also part of the group that did the Trump and Dump video but he brings out a great point about using data and looking at the collective impact of information in real time. And this interesting, I was looking at some of the impact last night in this and Nordstrom's had a tweet about Ivanka Trump and apparently Nordstrom's stock is up so, is there a flaw in the algorithm here? What's the take on that? Because in a way, that's the reverse of the bullying, he's defensive on that one so, is there a sentiment of him being more offensive or defensive? >> It's pretty standard. So, we're starting to see a pattern. So, what happens is that actually, the Nordstrom stock actually did go down right after the tweet. And so, we saw that that's a pattern that's typical when the president tweets negatively. When he tweets positively, we don't see that much of a bump. When he tweets negatively, typically the stock drops anywhere between one and four percent, sometimes even greater than that. But it rebounds very quickly. So, a big part of what we're trying to do with the bot and the algorithm is understand how long do we hold, and what is that timeframe before people actually come back to more of a rational state and start to buy back a stock that's valuable. Now what's really interesting, you mentioned, you know, the algorithm and whether there's a flaw in it, we learned something very interesting yesterday about Nordstrom's. So, the president tweeted and in that tweet he talked negatively about Nordstrom's, but he also talked very positively about his daughter, Ivanka. And so, the algorithm actually picked up that tweet and registered it as 61.5% positive. So, it didn't trade. So, we actually got kind of lucky on that one. >> You bring up a good point, and this is something that I want to get your thoughts on. You know, we live in an era of fake news, and it's just Snapchat just filed IPO filing to make a change in their filing to show that Amazon is going to be a billion dollar partner as well, which wasn't in the filing. So, there's a line between pure, fake news, which is essentially just made up stuff, and inaccurate news, so what you're kind of pointing out is a new mechanism to take advantage of the collective intelligence of real time information. And so this is kind of a new concept in the media business. And brands, who used to advertise with big media companies, are now involved in this so, as someone who's, you know, an architect for brand and understanding data, how are brands becoming more data driven? >> Well, I think what brands are realizing is that they live in this world that is more real time, that's such a buzzword. But more real time than I think they even thought would ever be possible, the fact that someone like the president can tweet and have literally cut off billions of dollars in market cap value in a moment's time is something that they have to figure out. So, I think the first thing is having the tools in place to actually monitor and understand, and then having a plan in place to react to things that are really quite unpredictable. So, not only, I don't think that you can have a plan for everything but you have to at least have a plan for understanding how you get legal approval on a response. Who would be responsible for that. You know, who do you work with, either through partners or inside of your organization to, you know, to be able to respond to something when you need to get back in promoting, you know, minutes versus hours. The thing that we don't hear people talk near as much about is, our goal was to see how close we can get to the information so we can zoom the data from Twitter's fire hose, so we get it hopefully when everyone else does. And then our goal is to take an action on that quicker than anybody else, and that delta is where we'll make a profit. What's really interesting to me is that the only person closer to that information than the president is Twitter. >> Ben, great to have you on, appreciate it, love to get you back on as a guest. We love to talk about is our model here, it's looking angle, it's extracting the signal from the noise. And certainly the game is changing, you're working with brands and the old model of ad agencies, this is a topic we love to cover here, the old ad agency model's certainly becoming much more platform oriented with data, these real time tools really super valuable, having a listening engine, having some actionable mechanisms to go out there and be part of and influence the conversation with information. Seems to be a good trend that you guys are really riding. Love to have you back on. >> We'd love to be back on, and thanks for the time, we enjoyed it. >> That was Ben Gaddis, who's the president of T3, the firm behind the Trump and Dump, but more importantly highlighting a really big megatrend which is the use of data, understanding its impact, having some analysis, and trying to figure out what that means for people. Be right back with more after this short break. >> [Female Announcer] Why wait for the future? The next evolution in IT infrastructure is happening now. 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Unify your data center with Cisco UCS. >> Male Announcer: You're listening to Cube Fridays, brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. Now, here's John Furrier. >> Okay, welcome back to the Silicon Valley Friday Show, I'm John Furrier, great show today. Our next guest is Dan Rosenbaum, who is the editor of Wearable Tech Insider, Media Probe, been around the industry for years, been a journalist, reporter, editor, variety through his career, knows the tech business certainly on the infrastructure level with the device. Okay, welcome to the show, great to have you, thanks for being available, he's in New York so, Palo Alto, New York connection here. >> Yeah, we got about maybe an hour or so of snow left. But you know, it's February, it does this in New York. >> Great to have you on, we were just talking on our earlier segment before the break about the guy who created the Trump and Dump video which is a chat bot that goes out, looks at Donald Trump's tweets, and then identifies if there's a public company, shorts the stock, and donates to save puppies. So, they're not doing it for profit but they're, you know, they have their intelligence and listening, and we were just riffing on the concept of that there's been fake news and inaccuracy and a new dynamic that's impacting the media business, which is real time information, data, and certainly the world that you're in with Wearables, this new internet of things, which is hard to understand for most common people but it's really the AI new connected network. It's really impacting things, certainly how people get information, how fast they create data, and it's changing the industry landscape certainly from a media standpoint. You get on TV and the mainstream... >> It really is. When the press secretary stood up and said that that the administration sees the media as the adversary, you know, everyone got sort of upset about it but you know, in a lot of ways it's true. That's a fitting way that the media and any administration, any power structure should be facing each other. There's been such a hop in the media to report the truth as best as it can determine and as accurately as it can. Now, there are differing impacts depending on which sphere you're in, and in politics there's always going to be sort of the tension, well, we think, we look at these facts and we think that and we look at those facts and think the other. >> I think ultimately this new formats that are developing really comes back down to I would add to that as trust. This is a collision course of a complete re-transformation of the media landscape and technology's at the heart of it and, you know, you're in the middle of it. With Wearables, you're seeing that at the edge of the network, these are new phenomenons. What's your take on this new trend of, you know, of computing? And I'm not saying singularity, as Ray Kurzweil would say, but you know, ultimately, it is going down to the point now where it's on your body, potentially in your body, but this is a new form of connection. What's your thoughts on this? >> 12 years ago, I was at the party where they launched MSNBC, and I ran into Andrew Lack, who's the CEO of MSNBC at the time, and asked him, why NBC was cutting this collaboration deal with Microsoft, because remember that's how it was started, when there wasn't any means for the news to go upwards. There was no way for citizen news gathering to be represented on this Microsoft-NBC co-venture. And Andrew actually looked down his nose at me, sneered, and goes, "Who in the world would want "people to be contributing to the news?" Well, now we're 10 or 12 years later and as you say, Snapchat and Skype, and all these mobile technologies have just transformed how people get their information, because they're now witnesses, and there are witnesses everywhere. One of the big transformations in, or about wearable technology is that computing infrastructure has moved from islands of stand-alone, massive computers, to networks of massive computers to stand-alone PCs, to networks to PCs, and now the model for computing and communication is the personal area network, the idea of sensor-based technologies is going to change, or already has changed the world of news, it's in the process of changing the world of medicine, it's in the process of changing the way we build houses, the construction business, with the smartphone, the way that we build and relate to cities. >> So, we're here with Dan Rosenbaum, he's the editor of Wearable Tech Insider, but more importantly he's been a tech insider in media going way back, he's seen the cycles of innovation. Love your point about the flowing conversations coming out of the MSNBC kind of executive in the old broadcast models. I mean, I have four kids, my oldest is 21, they don't use, they don't really care about cable TV anymore so, you know, this is now a new narrative so, those executives that are making those comments are either retired or will be dinosaurs. You now have Amazon, you have Netflix, you have, you know, folks, trying to look at this internet TV model where it's fully synchronous so, now you have collective intelligence of vertical markets that have real time ability to surface information up to bigger outlets. So, this collective media intelligence is happening, and it's all being driven by mobile technology. And with that being said, you know, you're in the business, we've got Mobile World Congress coming up, what is that show turning into? Because it's not about the mobile device anymore, the iPhone's 10 years old, that's a game changer. It's growing up. The impact of mobile is now beyond the device. >> Mobile World Congress is all about wireless infrastructure. It goes from everything from a one millimeter square sensor to the national grade wireless network. But what's really cool about Mobile World is that it's the place where communications or telecom ministers get together with infrastructure carriers, get together with the hardware manufacturers, and they hash out the problems that won't resolve five, 10, 15 years down the road in new products and new services. This is the place where everyone comes together. The back rooms at Mobile World Congress are the hottest place, and the back rooms are the places that you can't get into. >> We're here with Dan Rosenbaum, who's an industry veteran, also in the media frontlines in wireless technology, I mean, wearable technology and among other things, good view of the landscape. Final point, I want to just get a quick comment from ya, I was watching on Facebook, you had a great post around Facebook is feeding you an ad for a $19 million staid-in, let's feel Connecticut. And then you said, "One of us as the wrong idea, so you must be really loaded." This retargeting bullshit on Facebook is just ridiculous, I mean, come on, this bad, big data, isn't it? >> (laughing) Yeah, I mean, the boast of Google is that they want to make, you know, ads so relevant that they look like content. Well, in the process to getting there, there's going to be misses. You know, if this real estate agent decides that they want to hit everyone in my zip code, or everyone in my county, or whatever, and they wanted pay the five dollars so that I'd see that video, god bless 'em, let 'em do it, it's not going to make me, it's not going to overcome any kind of sales resistance. I don't know that I wanted to move up to Litchfield, Connecticut anyway, but if I did, sure, a $19 million house would be really nice. >> You could take a chopper into Manhattan, you know, just drop into Manhattan with a helicopter. >> They would want to take it. >> Alright, we can always take the helicopter in from Litchfield, you know, right at the top of your building. Dan, thanks so much for spending the time, really appreciate it, and we'll have to bring, circle back with you on our two day Mobile World Congress special in Palo Alto we'll be doing, so appreciate the time. Thanks a lot. >> Love to do it, thanks for having me. >> Okay, that was Dan Rosenbaum, really talking about, going down in the weeds a little bit but really more importantly, this Mobile World Congress, what's going on with this new trend, digital transformation really is about the impact to the consumer. And what's going on Silicon Valley right now is there's some hardcore tech that is changing the game from what we used to know as a device. The iPhone's only 10 years old, yet 10 years old, before the iPhone, essentially it was a phone, you made phone calls, maybe surf the Web through some bad browser and do text messages. That's now completely transforming, not just the device, it's the platform, so what we're going to see is new things that are happening and the tell signs are there. Self driving cars, autonomous vehicles, drones delivering packages from Amazon, a completely new, digitized world is coming. This is the real trend and we're going to have an executive from Intel on next to tell us kind of what's going on because Intel is at the ground zero of the innovation with Moore's Law and the integrated circuit. But they're bringing their entire Intel inside as a global platform, and this is really going to be driven through a ton of 5G, a new technology so, we're going to dig in on that, and we're going to have a call-in from her, she's going to be coming in from Oregon and again, we're going to get down to the engineers, the people making the chips under the hood and bringing that to you here on the Silicon Valley Friday Show, I'm John Furrier, we'll be right back after this short break. >> My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm a long-time industry analyst. So, when you're as old as I am you've seen a lot of transitions. Everybody talks about industry cycles and waves, I've seen many, many waves. I've seen a lot of industry executives and I'm a little bit of an industry historian. When you interview many thousands of people, probably five or six thousand people as I have over the last half of the decade, you get to interact with a lot of people's knowledge. And you begin to develop patterns so, that's sort of what I bring is an ability to catalyze a conversation and, you know, share that knowledge with others in the community. Our philosophy is everybody is an expert at something, everybody's passionate about something and has real deep knowledge about that something. Well, we want to focus in on that area and extract that knowledge and share with our communities. This is Dave Vellante, and thanks for watching the Cube. (serene techno music) >> Male Announcer: You're listening to the Silicon Valley Friday Show with John Furrier. >> Okay, welcome back to the Silicon Valley Friday Show, I'm John Furrier, we're here in Palo Alto for this Friday Show, we're going to go under the hood and get into some technology impact around what's going on in the industry, specifically kind of as a teaser for Mobile World Congress at the end of the month, it's a big show in Barcelona, Spain where the whole mobile and infrastructure industry comes together, it's kind of like CES, Consumer Electronics Show, in the mobile world but it's evolved in a big way and it's certainly impacting everyone in the industry and all consumers and businesses. This is Intel's Lynn Comp and this is Intel who, we know about Moore's Law, we know all about the chips that make everything happen, Intel has been the engine of innovation of the PC revolutions, it's been the engine of innovation now in the Cloud and as Intel looks at the next generation, they are the key player in this transformation that we are seeing with AI, wearable computers, internet of things, self driving cars, AI, this is all happening, new stuff's going on. Lynn, welcome to the program. >> Thank you so much, it's great to be here. >> So, you're up in Oregon, thanks for taking the time to allow us to talk via phone, appreciate it. Obviously, Intel, we've been following you guys, and I've been a big fan since 1987, when I almost worked there right out of college. Went to Hewlett Packard instead, but that's a different story but, great, great innovation over the years, Intel has been the bell weather in the tech industry, been a big part of the massive change. But now, as you look at the next generation, I mean, I have four kids and they don't watch cable TV, they don't like, they don't do the things that we used to do, they're on the mobile phone all the time. And the iPhone is now 10 years old as of this year, this early winter part of this, Steve Jobs announced it 10 years ago. And what a change has it been, it's moved from telephone calls to a computer that happens to have software that makes telephone calls. This is a game changer. But now it seems that Mobile World Congress has changed from being a telephone centric, voice centric, phone device centric show to a software show, it seems to be that software is eating the world just like CES is turning into an automotive show. What is Mobile World Congress turning into? What's the preview from Intel's perspective? >> You know, it's a really fascinating question because many years ago, you would only see a bunch of very, very intense base station design, you know, it was very, very oriented around wireless, wireless technology, and radios, and those are really important because they're an engine of fabric that you can build capabilities onto. But last year, just as a reference point for how much it's changed, we have Facebook giving one of the main keynotes. And they're known for their software, they're known for social media, and so you'll see Facebook and Google with an exhibitor there last year as well, so you're not just seeing suppliers into the traditional wireless industry for equipment and the operators who are the purchaser, you're seeing many, many different players show up very much like how you said CES has a lot of automotives there now. >> Yeah, we've seen a lot of revolutions in the computer industry, Intel created a revolution called the Computer Revolution, the PC Revolution, and then it became kind of an evolution, that seems to be the big trends you see, that cycle. But it seems now that we are, kind of been doing the evolution of mobile computing, and my phone gets better, 10 years down to the iPhone, 3G, 4G, LT, okay, I want more bandwidth, of course, but is there a revolution? Where can you point to? Where is the revolution, versus just standard evolutionary kind of trends? Is there something coming out of this that we're going to see? >> That is such a great question because when you look at the first digital wireless technologies that came out and then you had 2G, and 3G, and 4G, those really were evolutionary. And what we're finding with 5G that I believe is going to be a huge theme at Mobile World Congress this year is it is a completely different ballgame, I would say it's more of an inflection point or very revolutionary. And there's a couple reasons for that, both tie up in how ITU is specifying the use cases, it's licensed and unlicensed spectrum which is kind of unusual for how it's been done if you will get 2, 3, and 4G. The other thing that's really interesting about 5G, that it's an inflection point is there's a lot more intelligence assumed in the network and it helps address some of the challenges I think that the industry is seeing a different industry with some of the IoT promise we'll roll out where some of the macro design networks that we'd seen in the past, the ability to have the right latency, the right bandwidth, and the right cost matched to the needs of a specific IoT use case was much more limited in the past and I think we'll see a lot more opportunities moving forward. >> Great, great stuff, we're with Lynn Comp with the Network Platforms Group at Intel. You know, you bring up some, I like the way you're going with this, there's so much like, impact to society going on with these big, big trends. But also I was just having a conversation with some young folks here in Palo Alto, high school kids and some college kids and they're all jazzed up about AI, you can almost see the... I don't want to say addiction but fascination and intoxication with technology. And there's some real hardcore good tech going on here, could you just share your thoughts on, you know, what are some of those things that are going to, 'cause I mean, 5G to wireless, I get that, but I mean, you know, these kids that we talked to and folks that are in the next generation, they love the autonomous vehicles. But sometimes I can't get a phone signal, how are cars going to talk to each other? I mean, how does this, I mean, you've got to pull this together. And these kids are like, and it's into these new careers. What's your thoughts on what are some of the game changing tech challenges that are coming out of this? >> Let's just start with something that was a great example this year 'cause I think I have kids a similar age. And I had been skeptical of things like even just virtual reality, a augmented or virtual reality. And then we had this phenomena last summer that really was just a hint, it wasn't really augmented reality, but it was a hint of the demand that could be met by it and it's Pokemon Go. And so, an example with that, I mean, it really wasn't asking a significantly higher amount of data off the network, but it did change the use profile for many of the coms service providers and many of the networks where they realized I actually have to change the architecture, not just of what's at the edge but in my core network, to be more responsive and flexible, you are going to see something even more so with autonomous driving, even if it's just driver assist. And similar to how the auto pilot evolution happened, you're still going to have these usage patterns where people have too many demands, too much information coming at them, they do want that assistance, or they do want that augmented experience to interact with a brand, and it's going to really stress the network and there's going to have to be a lot of innovation about where some of these capabilities are placed and how much intelligence is close to the user as opposed to just a radio, probably going to need a lot more analytics and a lot more machine learning capabilities there as well. >> We had a segment earlier in the show, it was the entrepreneur who created the Trump and Dump chat bot that would go out and read Donald Trump's tweets and then short all public companies that were mentioned because the trend is, they would do that, but this is an example of some of these chat bots and some of this automation that's going on and it kind of brings the question up to some of the technology challenges that we're looking out at the landscape that we're discussing is the role of data really is a big deal and software and data now have an interaction play where you got to move data around the networks, networks are now ubiquitous, networks are now on people, networks are now in cars, networks are now part of all this, I won't say unstructured networks, but omni-connected fabric. So, data can really change what looks like an optimal architecture to a failed one, if you don't think about it properly. So, how do you guys at Intel think about the role of data? I mean, how do you build the new chips and how do you look at the landscape? And it must be a big consideration, what's your thoughts about the role of data? Because it can happen at any time, a tsunami of data could hit anything. >> Right, the tsunami of data. So for us, it's any challenge, and this is just in Intel's DNA, historically, we'll get challenges as opportunities because we love to solve these really big problems. And so, when you're talking about data moving around a network you're talking about transformation of the network. We've been having a lot of discussions with operators where they see the data tsunami, they're already seeing it, and they realized, I have got to reconfigure the architecture of my network to leverage these technologies and these capabilities in a way that's relevant for the regulatory environment I'm in. But I still have to be flexible, I have to be agile, I have to be leveraging programmability instead of having to rewrite software every generation or every time a new app comes out. >> Lynn, thanks so much for coming on. Like we always say, you know, engine room more power, you can never have enough compute power available in network bandwidth, as far as I'm concerned. You know, we'd love to increase the power, Moore's Law's been just a great thing, keeps on chugging along. Thanks for your time and joining us on the Silicon Valley Friday Show, appreciate it. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> Alright, take care. Okay, this is Silicon Valley Friday Show, I'm John Furrier, thanks so much for listening. I had Ben Gaddis on, Dan Rosenbaum, and Lynn Comp from Intel really breaking it down and bringing you all the best stories of the week here on the Silicon Valley, thanks for watching. (techno music) (bright instrumental music)