>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave ante. >>When Frank sluman took service, now public many people undervalued the company, positioning it as just a better help desk tool. You know, it turns out that the firm actually had a massive Tam expansion opportunity in it. SM customer service, HR, logistics, security marketing, and service management. Generally now stock price followed over the years, the stellar execution under Slootman and CFO, Mike scar Kelly's leadership. Now, when they took the reins at snowflake expectations were already set that they'd repeat the feet, but this time, if anything, the company was overvalued out of the gate, the thing is people didn't really better understand the market opportunity this time around, other than that, it was a bet on Salman's track record of execution and on data, pretty good bets, but folks really didn't appreciate that snowflake. Wasn't just a better data warehouse that it was building what they call a data cloud, and we've turned a data super cloud. >>Hello and welcome to this. Week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis, we'll do four things. First. We're gonna review the recent narrative and concerns about snowflake and its value. Second, we're gonna share survey data from ETR that will confirm precisely what the company's CFO has been telling anyone who will listen. And third, we're gonna share our view of what snowflake is building IE, trying to become the defacto standard data platform, and four convey our expectations for the upcoming snowflake summit. Next week at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, Snowflake's most recent quarterly results they've been well covered and well documented. It basically hit its targets, which for snowflake investors was bad news wall street piled on expressing concerns about Snowflake's consumption, pricing model, slowing growth rates, lack of profitability and valuation. Given the, given the current macro market conditions, the stock dropped below its IPO offering price, which you couldn't touch on day one, by the way, as the stock opened well above that and, and certainly closed well above that price of one 20 and folks express concerns about some pretty massive insider selling throughout 2021 and early 2022, all this caused the stock price to drop quite substantially. >>And today it's down around 63% or more year to date, but the only real substantive change in the company's business is that some of its largest consumer facing companies, while still growing dialed back, their consumption this past quarter, the tone of the call was I wouldn't say contentious the earnings call, but Scarelli, I think was getting somewhat annoyed with the implication from some analyst questions that something is fundamentally wrong with Snowflake's business. So let's unpack this a bit first. I wanna talk about the consumption pricing on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked if snowflake would consider more of a subscription based model so that they could better weather such fluctuations and demand before the analyst could even finish the question, CFO Scarelli emphatically interrupted and said, no, <laugh> the analyst might as well have asked, Hey Mike, have you ever considered changing your pricing model and screwing your customers the same way most legacy SaaS companies lock their customers in? >>So you could squeeze more revenue out of them and make my forecasting life a little bit easier. <laugh> consumption pricing is one of the things that makes a company like snowflake so attractive because customers is especially large customers facing fluctuating demand can dial and their end demand can dial down usage for certain workloads that are maybe not yet revenue producing or critical. Now let's jump to insider trading. There were a lot of insider selling going on last year and into 2022 now, I mean a lot sloop and Scarelli Christine Kleinman. Mike SP several board members. They sold stock worth, you know, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars or, or more at prices in the two hundreds and three hundreds and even four hundreds. You remember the company at one point was valued at a hundred billion dollars, surpassing the value of service now, which is this stupid at this point in the company's tenure and the insider's cost basis was very often in the single digit. >>So on the one hand, I can't blame them. You know what a gift the market gave them last year. Now also famed investor, Peter Linsey famously said, insiders sell for many reasons, but they only buy for one. But I have to say there wasn't a lot of insider buying of the stock when it was in the three hundreds and above. And so yeah, this pattern is something to watch our insiders buying. Now, I'm not sure we'll keep watching snowflake. It's pretty generous with stock based compensation and insiders still own plenty of stock. So, you know, maybe not, but we'll see in future disclosures, but the bottom line is Snowflake's business. Hasn't dramatically changed with the exception of these large consumer facing companies. Now, another analyst pointed out that companies like snap, he pointed to company snap, Peloton, Netflix, and face Facebook have been cutting back. >>And Scarelli said, and what was a bit of a surprise to me? Well, I'm not gonna name the customers, but it's not the ones you mentioned. So I, I thought I would've, you know, if I were the analyst I would've follow up with, how about Walmart target visa, Amex, Expedia price line, or Uber? Any of those Mike? I, I doubt he would've answered me anything. Anyway, the one thing that Scarelli did do is update Snowflake's fiscal year 2029 outlook to emphasize the long term opportunity that the company sees. This chart shows a financial snapshot of Snowflake's current business using a combination of quarterly and full year numbers in a model of what the business will look like. According to Scarelli in Dave ante with a little bit of judgment in 2029. So this is essentially based on the company's framework. Snowflake this year will surpass 2 billion in revenues and targeting 10 billion by 2029. >>Its current growth rate is 84% and its target is 30% in the out years, which is pretty impressive. Gross margins are gonna tick up a bit, but remember Snowflake's cost a good sold they're dominated by its cloud cost. So it's got a governor. There has to pay AWS Azure and Google for its infrastructure. But high seventies is a, is a good target. It's not like the historical Microsoft, you know, 80, 90% gross margin. Not that Microsoft is there anymore, but, but snowflake, you know, was gonna be limited by how far it can, how much it can push gross margin because of that factor. It's got a tiny operating margin today and it's targeting 20% in 2029. So that would be 2 billion. And you would certainly expect it's operating leverage in the out years to enable much, much, much lower SGNA than the current 54%. I'm guessing R and D's gonna stay healthy, you know, coming in at 15% or so. >>But the real interesting number to watch is free cash flow, 16% this year for the full fiscal year growing to 25% by 2029. So 2.5 billion in free cash flow in the out years, which I believe is up from previous Scarelli forecast in that 10, you know, out year view 2029 view and expect the net revenue retention, the NRR, it's gonna moderate. It's gonna come down, but it's still gonna be well over a hundred percent. We pegged it at 130% based on some of Mike's guidance. Now today, snowflake and every other stock is well off this morning. The company had a 40 billion value would drop well below that midday, but let's stick with the 40 billion on this, this sad Friday on the stock market, we'll go to 40 billion and who knows what the stock is gonna be valued in 2029? No idea, but let's say between 40 and 200 billion and look, it could get even ugly in the market as interest rates rise. >>And if inflation stays high, you know, until we get a Paul Voker like action, which is gonna be painful from the fed share, you know, let's hope we don't have a repeat of the long drawn out 1970s stagflation, but that is a concern among investors. We're gonna try to keep it positive here and we'll do a little sensitivity analysis of snowflake based on Scarelli and Ante's 2029 projections. What we've done here is we've calculated in this chart. Today's current valuation at about 40 billion and run a CAGR through 2029 with our estimates of valuation at that time. So if it stays at 40 billion valuation, can you imagine snowflake grow into a 10 billion company with no increase in valuation by the end, by by 2029 fiscal 2029, that would be a major bummer and investors would get a, a 0% return at 50 billion, 4% Kager 60 billion, 7%. >>Kegar now 7% market return is historically not bad relative to say the S and P 500, but with that kind of revenue and profitability growth projected by snowflake combined with inflation, that would again be a, a kind of a buzzkill for investors. The picture at 75 billion valuation, isn't much brighter, but it picks up at, at a hundred billion, even with inflation that should outperform the market. And as you get to 200 billion, which would track by the way, revenue growth, you get a 30% plus return, which would be pretty good. Could snowflake beat these projections. Absolutely. Could the market perform at the optimistic end of the spectrum? Sure. It could. It could outperform these levels. Could it not perform at these levels? You bet, but hopefully this gives a little context and framework to what Scarelli was talking about and his framework, not with notwithstanding the market's unpredictability you're you're on your own. >>There. I can't help snowflake looks like it's going to continue either way in amazing run compared to other software companies historically, and whether that's reflected in the stock price. Again, I, I, I can't predict, okay. Let's look at some ETR survey data, which aligns really well with what snowflake is telling the street. This chart shows the breakdown of Snowflake's net score and net score. Remember is ETS proprietary methodology that measures the percent of customers in their survey that are adding the platform new. That's the lime green at 19% existing snowflake customers that are ex spending 6% or more on the platform relative to last year. That's the forest green that's 55%. That's a big number flat spend. That's the gray at 21% decreasing spending. That's the pinkish at 5% and churning that's the red only 1% or, or moving off the platform, tiny, tiny churn, subtract the red from the greens and you get a net score that, that, that nets out to 68%. >>That's an, a very impressive net score by ETR standards. But it's down from the highs of the seventies and mid eighties, where high seventies and mid eighties, where snowflake has been since January of 2019 note that this survey of 1500 or so organizations includes 155 snowflake customers. What was really interesting is when we cut the data by industry sector, two of Snowflake's most important verticals, our finance and healthcare, both of those sectors are holding a net score in the ETR survey at its historic range. 83%. Hasn't really moved off that, you know, 80% plus number really encouraging, but retail consumer showed a dramatic decline. This past survey from 73% in the previous quarter down to 54%, 54% in just three months time. So this data aligns almost perfectly with what CFO Scarelli has been telling the street. So I give a lot of credibility to that narrative. >>Now here's a time series chart for the net score and the provision in the data set, meaning how penetrated snowflake is in the survey. Again, net score measures, spending velocity and a specific platform and provision measures the presence in the data set. You can see the steep downward trend in net score this past quarter. Now for context note, the red dotted line on the vertical axis at 40%, that's a bit of a magic number. Anything above that is best in class in our view, snowflake still a well, well above that line, but the April survey as we reported on May 7th in quite a bit of detail shows a meaningful break in the snowflake trend as shown by ETRS call out on the bottom line. You can see a steady rise in the survey, which is a proxy for Snowflake's overall market penetration. So steadily moving up and up. >>Here's a bit of a different view on that data bringing in some of Snowflake's peers and other data platforms. This XY graph shows net score on the vertical axis and provision on the horizontal with the red dotted line. At 40%, you can see from the ETR callouts again, that snowflake while declining in net score still holds the highest net score in the survey. So of course the highest data platforms while the spending velocity on AWS and Microsoft, uh, data platforms, outperforms that have, uh, sorry, while they're spending velocity on snowflake outperforms, that of AWS and, and Microsoft data platforms, those two are still well above the 40% line with a stronger market presence in the category. That's impressive because of their size. And you can see Google cloud and Mongo DB right around the 40% line. Now we reported on Mongo last week and discussed the commentary on consumption models. >>And we referenced Ray Lenchos what we thought was, was quite thoughtful research, uh, that rewarded Mongo DB for its forecasting transparency and, and accuracy and, and less likelihood of facing consumption headwinds. And, and I'll reiterate what I said last week, that snowflake, while seeing demand fluctuations this past quarter from those large customers is, is not like a data lake where you're just gonna shove data in and figure it out later, no schema on, right. Just throw it into the pond. That's gonna be more discretionary and you can turn that stuff off. More likely. Now you, you bring data into the snowflake data cloud with the intent of driving insights, which leads to actions, which leads to value creation. And as snowflake adds capabilities and expands its platform features and innovations and its ecosystem more and more data products are gonna be developed in the snowflake data cloud and by data products. >>We mean products and services that are conceived by business users. And that can be directly monetized, not just via analytics, but through governed data sharing and direct monetization. Here's a picture of that opportunity as we see it, this is our spin on our snowflake total available market chart that we've published many, many times. The key point here goes back to our opening statements. The snowflake data cloud is evolving well beyond just being a simpler and easier to use and more elastic cloud database snowflake is building what we often refer to as a super cloud. That is an abstraction layer that companies that, that comprises rich features and leverages the underlying primitives and APIs of the cloud providers, but hides all that complexity and adds new value beyond that infrastructure that value is seen in the left example in terms of compressed cycle time, snowflake often uses the example of pharmaceutical companies compressing time to discover a drug by years. >>Great example, there are many others this, and, and then through organic development and ecosystem expansion, snowflake will accelerate feature delivery. Snowflake's data cloud vision is not about vertically integrating all the functionality into its platform. Rather it's about creating a platform and delivering secure governed and facile and powerful analytics and data sharing capabilities to its customers, partners in a broad ecosystem so they can create additional value. On top of that ecosystem is how snowflake fills the gaps in its platform by building the best cloud data platform in the world, in terms of collaboration, security, governance, developer, friendliness, machine intelligence, etcetera, snowflake believes and plans to create a defacto standard. In our view in data platforms, get your data into the data cloud and all these native capabilities will be available to you. Now, is that a walled garden? Some might say it is. It's an interesting question and <laugh>, it's a moving target. >>It's definitely proprietary in the sense that snowflake is building something that is highly differentiatable and is building a moat around it. But the more open snowflake can make its platform. The more open source it uses, the more developer friendly and the great greater likelihood people will gravitate toward snowflake. Now, my new friend Tani, she's the creator of the data mesh concept. She might bristle at this narrative in favor, a more open source version of what snowflake is trying to build, but practically speaking, I think she'd recognize that we're a long ways off from that. And I also think that the benefits of a platform that despite requiring data to be inside of the data cloud can distribute data globally, enable facile governed, and computational data sharing, and to a large degree be a self-service platform for data, product builders. So this is how we see snow, the snowflake data cloud vision evolving question is edge part of that vision on the right hand side. >>Well, again, we think that is going to be a future challenge where the ecosystem is gonna have to come to play to fill those gaps. If snowflake can tap the edge, it'll bring even more clarity as to how it can expand into what we believe is a massive 200 billion Tam. Okay, let's close on next. Week's snowflake summit in Las Vegas. The cube is very excited to be there. I'll be hosting with Lisa Martin and we'll have Frank son as well as Christian Kleinman and several other snowflake experts. Analysts are gonna be there, uh, customers. And we're gonna have a number of ecosystem partners on as well. Here's what we'll be looking for. At least some of the things, evidence that our view of Snowflake's data cloud is actually taking shape and evolving in the way that we showed on the previous chart, where we also wanna figure out where snowflake is with it. >>Streamlet acquisition. Remember streamlet is a data science play and an expansion into data, bricks, territory, data, bricks, and snowflake have been going at it for a while. Streamlet brings an open source Python library and machine learning and kind of developer friendly data science environment. We also expect to hear some discussion, hopefully a lot of discussion about developers. Snowflake has a dedicated developer conference in November. So we expect to hear more about that and how it's gonna be leveraging further leveraging snow park, which it has previously announced, including a public preview of programming for unstructured data and data monetization along the lines of what we suggested earlier that is building data products that have the bells and whistles of native snowflake and can be directly monetized by Snowflake's customers. Snowflake's already announced a new workload this past week in security, and we'll be watching for others. >>And finally, what's happening in the all important ecosystem. One of the things we noted when we covered service now, cause we use service now as, as an example because Frank Lupin and Mike Scarelli and others, you know, DNA were there and they're improving on that service. Now in his post IPO, early adult years had a very slow pace. In our view was often one of our criticism of ecosystem development, you know, ServiceNow. They had some niche SI uh, like cloud Sherpa, and eventually the big guys came in and, and, and began to really lean in. And you had some other innovators kind of circling the mothership, some smaller companies, but generally we see sluman emphasizing the ecosystem growth much, much more than with this previous company. And that is a fundamental requirement in our view of any cloud or modern cloud company now to paraphrase the crazy man, Steve bomber developers, developers, developers, cause he screamed it and ranted and ran around the stage and was sweating <laugh> ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem equals optionality for developers and that's what they want. >>And that's how we see the current and future state of snowflake. Thanks today. If you're in Vegas next week, please stop by and say hello with the cube. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan, who sometimes helps research breaking analysis topics. Alex, my is, and OS Myerson is on production. And today Andrew Frick, Sarah hiney, Steven Conti Anderson hill Chuck all and the entire team in Palo Alto, including Christian. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you Christian writer, of course, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out. And Rob ho is our E IIC over at Silicon angle. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast, wherever you listen to search breaking analysis podcast, I publish each week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can email me directly anytime David dot Valante Silicon angle.com. If you got something interesting, I'll respond. If not, I won't or DM me@deteorcommentonmylinkedinpostsandpleasedocheckoutetr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for the insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next week. I hope if not, we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>>Yeah. Hello and welcome to the Cubes Presentation of Women in text. Global event Celebrating International Women's Day I'm John for a host of the Cube were with Sally E. Senior Policy Advisor Global Foundation for Cyber Studies and Research. Sally, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cue for International Women's Day. Appreciate it. >>Pleasure, John. Great speech again. >>Love your title. Global Foundation for Cyber Studies. Um, global is a big part of the theme this year. Uh, cyber studies. We're seeing a lot of cyber activity all around the world, networks, communities coming together, the role of data. I mean, everything is touching our lives. There are no boundaries anymore. What does it all mean? There's so much to talk about your in the middle of it before we get into it. Tell us about your career and your history. How you got interested in tech and what you're working on. >>Absolutely. I love it. Kind of this age of convergence coming together right now, isn't it? That's how I would describe it. And that's kind of a bit like my career. I think in many ways as well. So for the audience, really great to be here and share about that today, and I kind of say, three main palace, so one would be emergent technologies. So, you know, I started off right through from coding to advisory to CTO type roles as well also change management. And now I'm more advisors right across from a I to five G to to Iot and security, for example as well. Also passionate about education checking education for me. They always go hand in hand, some a professor at a number of universities and in my non for profit, we really do a lot of outreach around educational opportunities as well. And that third pillar opponent hinted at it already will be social impact. So really passionate about how we can use tech as a force for good things around sustainability right at the heart of that, but also around diversity equity and inclusion. So we do a lot of pro project your locally and globally around kind of reframing what a tech career looks like, giving people more democratised access. Those tech opportunities outside of that a bit like yourself, you know, podcast host and writer and speaker and things as well, so very much going to building that community around key tech topics. >>Well, folks watching should check it out on Twitter. She's that great content you mentioned Mobile World Congress. Before we get on camera, you mentioned convergence. I mean, we're at a time now. I got to ask you while I got you here before we get into the whole schools and career tech thing, we've seen this movie before, but never at this scale. The convergence and the confluence of education and scale of cloud computing, the ability to level up and get, um, I won't say democratised. That's kind of overused. But I'm just talking about like with cloud computing could be educated and in market with a job instantly. Um, the barriers just seem to be moving away because of the the openings and the roles are changing. So, more than ever, this whole new tech scene comes together in a way. Can you share your thoughts and vision because to me, we're seeing this happening at such a scale unprecedented in my career? >>It is. And that's one of those words that the part had been overused, unprecedented, but right now it really, really is. It's not just a speed of change. I think it's a scale of change as well. You know, I think previously we've talked about disciplines in silos to a certain extent. Haven't we know in terms of like, an AI special is, um or five g one or other disciplines as well? But really, now that convergence about what one tech enables another, it really is that smart technology coming together for more and more different use cases, but that residents around how important education is alongside that alongside process alongside culture and shared values as well it really is. It's kind of holistic integration of everything that matters at the moment. And it's evolving business models as well. You know, shared values rights centre stage around that MWC just come back from that, And the key topics there weren't just by G, it was the importance of ecosystem collaboration. For example, there are less tracks that were isolated on one technology. It was more this conflation of these different technologies coming together and what we can achieve from that from business but also for society so really exciting focus areas now things that maybe once or a few years ago, more than periphery. They're now absolutely centre stage. So it's good to see that progress in that area. And I love to advocate around that. >>And the education piece is so important, and we always stay here in Cuba. It's a data problem, right? Everything's a data problem when you look at schools and education is structured and unstructured data kind of our our systems right, So structured as schools, institutions, those kinds of career paths or education pathways. And then you haven't structured freeform communities, seeing a lot more education going on within groups. Um, off structured environments like schools, Can you and you do a lot with schools? Can you share more how you're doing? Um uh, work with schools specifically on the structured side to get girls into careers faster and tech? And then can you also comment on the other side? What's going on in the communities because it's it's kind of going on in parallel, but they're not mutually exclusive. >>No, absolutely community, absolutely key word that I love that, and I think when we're talking about diversity and technology, it's not just what we're doing now with what we're looking at is looking ahead, but also looking at future pipeline as well. So for me, I use this express a little bit. But change the narrative. That's what springs to mind for me when we're talking about that, and particularly for girls going into technology but also more broadly, diversity of experience. More broadly, we do have these drop offs, so UK is one example, but it is really representative of the global trends that we're seeing. Now. We get a drop off of girls in particular, taking ice subjects at GCSE level so kind of that subject choice choice at 12 to 14, that kind of area. We get the same thing at a level that's equivalent of 16 to 18 and then even safer university or even apprenticeships, whichever both equally valid. But even if people are taking those types of skills, they're not then choosing to apply them in their careers. So we're seeing these kind of three pillars where we need to intervene earlier. So for me, the more that we can do things you know from dedicated educational offers, but equally partnering with tech companies to do outreach around this area. We need to go in younger and younger is so important to address that. Why? Why are people thinking they can't? Why is his career not for me, for example, so addressing that is huge. And that's one of the things we do with my nonprofit that's called aspirational futures. We go into schools and two universities, but equally do things with older adults and re Skilling and up Skilling as well. Because again, we can't leave that behind either. There's something for all different kind of age groups and backgrounds here, but specifically, I think, in terms of getting people interested in this career, curiosity matters. You know, I think it's an underrated skills. So it's changing the narrative again. And what the tech career actually is, what skills are valid? You know, I mentioned, I have a coding background as a starter. But not all tech careers involve coding, particularly the rise of low code or no code, for example as well. So really valued skill. But so many other skills are valid as well, you know, creativity or emotional intelligence problem solving skills. So for me, I like to drive forward. All those skills can make a difference as an individual, as a team, so your you know your tech career. All those skills are valid and you can make a huge difference. And I also think, you know, just kind of really bringing to the fore what different types of projects you can be involved in in tech as well. And I found really resonating when you can talk about tech for good projects and show how you're making a difference about some of those big challenges. Um, that's kind of really kind of resonating responsible people as well. So again, the more we can show tangible projects where you can make a difference and the whole range of skills that are involved in that it really helps people to think differently and gain that skills confidence. So it's like, >>Well, that's awesome insight. I want to just double click on that for a second, because one the drop off. Can you just repeat the ages where you see the drop off with the drop offs are >>absolutely yeah, no problem, John. So it's kind of when you're making your first choices around your first kind of qualifications. Between that 12 to 14 age group, 16 to 18 and then 18 to 21 I think we've really got to tackle that So again the earlier we can go in the better and again supporting people within organisations as well. So I do a lot of work like internally, with organisations as well people looking to up skill and re skill. You mentioned about data and the importance of data literacy earlier on in the conversation as well. For example, going into organisations and really helping to support people in all roles, not just tech facing roles develop that skills, confidence as well. So for me it's access to skills really bringing forward the difference. You can make that holistic range of skills that makes a difference, but also the confidence to apply them as well. You know, we talk about agility, of organisations, a lot areas, one of those kind of words in the last 12 months. But maybe we don't talk about personal agility and team agility as well. So I kind of talked about it. This little toolbox, if we can give people more and more things to draw from it, the only constant is this rate of change. If you've got more things in your armoury to cope with that and be an agile to that. It takes that fear away about what happens next because you feel you've got more skills to dip into it and to apply. So for me, it's that that confidence, not just the access to the skills >>and the other thing, too, I thought was insightful. I want to just reiterate and bring to the surface again as skills, right? So you don't have to be a coder. And I see I have two daughters just with my family. Yeah, I do python. They kind of put their toe in the water cause it's cool. Maybe that's a path, and they kind of don't like, maybe get into it. But it's not about coding anymore because you said low code, no code. Certainly. Maybe AI writes the code. We all see that happening. It's problem solving. It's you could be in health care and you could be nerd native, as we say, as on some of the other interviews of that year at the problem, solving the aperture of skills is much broader now. Can >>you share more than >>more than because with your with your programme and your nonprofit, I know you're in the middle of it, and this is important to get that out there. >>Absolutely so skills. You know, I think we need to change the focus on what skills make a difference if you see what I mean. I think you're absolutely right. There's some misconceptions about, you know, you want to go into tech, you need to be a coda. And you're right with the upscale around low Skilling. Sorry, Low code and the code opportunities. Um, I think the niches around being a specialist. Koda. We're gonna get more roles in that area, but in other areas, we need to look at different skills gap. So I'm advising people to look at where the gaps are now. So cyber security is a key example of that testing architecture. Those gaps are getting bigger. Their amazing skills, opportunities. They're so focused on a particular discipline. But it's all those skills that surround that that make a difference as well. So as I mentioned, you know, e Q creativity, communication skills, because it's not just about having the skills to build the future, knew that imagination to refocus about what that could even be. You know, that was one of the MWC 20 to refrain, reimagine and I love to kind of galvanise that spirit and people that you can be part of that, you know, wherever you are now. And I actually run a little series called 365, and you mentioned something right at the start of our conversation about International Women's Day being such an important focus area. But also we need to think about this beyond that as well. So hence that's the title of the series that I run because it's a focus on that every single day of the year. You know, I interviewed people that could be a C suite roles, but equally I've had some amazing interviews with 12 to 14 year olds, even younger, the youngest of the seven year old. He's doing like an amazing project in their kitchen with a three D printer working with local school or a hospice doing something around Ukraine. Another project we're doing at the moment, actually, and it's so resonating it's trying to show people wherever you are now, wherever you want to be, there's somebody relatable that you can make. You can see whatever sector, in whatever age, whatever background, and I think it's to give that inspiration. Hey, you know what I can do that that can be me. So visibility of role models, it really matters. And to really broaden out what role model looks like, you know? >>And then I think people out there you see yourself. I mean, this is what we been >>proven right? >>It's proven I want to get into the aspirational futures thing that you have going on, and I know this is important to you, but also something else you said was, is that there's more jobs open and say cybersecurity than ever before. And you're seeing this trend where all these new roles are emerging because of the tech that weren't around years ago, right? And so we've been having conversations in the Cube saying, Hey, all these roles are new, but also problems are new to these New new problems are surfacing because of the this new environment we're in. So these new roles still have to solve problems, so we need people to solve those problems. This is the future. This is the conversation that people are trying to get zero in on misinformation, cybersecurity, you name it. Society is changing with >>new. You >>have new new problems and new opportunities. Could you share your aspirational future? How you vector into that? >>Yeah, absolutely. And for me it's just again that we're convergence around people in technology and partnership, and that's what we aim to do. We do projects at a very local level, but equally we do them at national and international level as well. And one of our kind of people assume I'm talking pillars a lot, but I like it as a framework. So one of those esteem learning. So putting an equal value on the arts as well as science, technology, engineering, mathematics because I think they are. You know, as I mentioned before, hand that imagination, creativity, curiosity, collaboration, skills. They're equally valid as a different types of tech skills as well. We need an equal value and all of them. I think that's hugely important, important today. I think over the last 5 to 10 years, maybe there's been less of a focus within curriculums on the arts area than the other areas. So for me, putting that equal focus back is hugely important to navigate change, you know, I think that's that's that's absolutely key. So we focus on that area and we do a whole range of tech for good projects, and that's the way we help people to learn, you know, for example, data 90% at the moment of data isn't touched again when it's archived after three months. How can we turn that into a learning opportunity? For example? Some of the projects we use some of this is not going to be used again. We do it in a very safe, secure way, but we use that as one of our training aids, and then we apply them for local projects. We have initiatives from hackathons and ideation right through to very tangible hubs that we've actually built out where people can go, learn up skill and kind of learn through play and experimentation as well. Because again, I think that sometimes under explored that type of value and that freedom to be able to do that. And we also do things, change management skills. We talk about agile learning, agile technology need agile change management as well. So it's a very holistic skills. Look at what you need to navigate that future and have the confidence to apply them. So steam is very much our focus, applying them for tech for good projects and doing that externally, but also within organisations as well. So that very much is shared value approach to good business, but good for society as well. So yes, that this toolbox, that technology I applied earlier we really try and give people that support. To be able to do that, to move forward with confidence and optimism. >>I think adding the aid to stem really for steam is really smart because entrepreneurship or any problem solving creativity is the spark of innovation. >>And that's a super >>important skill. And we've seen it, whether it's startup or in a big company or in society, so super, super insightful. So I got to ask you, as a policy senior policy advisor on cyber studies globally, what are the core issues you're looking at right now? What are you shutting the light on and what's the most important thing you're working on? And then what's the most important thing you're working that people aren't talking about, that people should pay attention to >>Absolutely so. One of my key roles of the foundation is is kind of share of global trust. Essentially, um, and again trust is that one of the key issues of our time? One thing that people are talking about so much that relates with that actually is there's there's research from a group called The Woman. They've been looking at this for about 17 years or so. The research that came out most recently and I've got some original research that kind of support this as well is that for the first time ever, consumers are looking at organisations like tech organisations and other large organisations, in particular the enterprise level, really, as the bastions of trust to a bigger extent than NGOs or even governments. And that's the first time we've seen it at that level. So trust really really matters. It's one of the biggest differentiators of our time, so we're trying to help people. How do you establish trust? How do you build transparency, commitment and accountability, particularly in areas where there's currently confusion, so as one example going back Security zero Trust That phrase is used an awful lot, isn't it? But it's sometimes causing some confusion. Actually, it against what it's trying to deliver if you see what to me. So now I just do something recently with SMB s in particular and there is a confusion that effectively, you know, you could You could buy off the shelf and it's once and done. Um, And then we're sorted for the zero Trust security. And obviously it's not like that. It's an ongoing journey, and there's so many different constituent parts. So there's some things I'm seeing at the moment in the market with there's confusion around around certain language, for example. So again it goes back to backing things up with the technology but also research and awareness so we can see where those skills gaps are. You can see where there's awareness gaps are we can help to fill them. So that's an important part of that particular role bringing the technology in the culture and the education hand in hand together. So it's something I'm really passionate about, and for me sort of related to this, Um, I do a lot of work around S G, um, to the sustainable development goals. In particular, environmental and social governance is something that's becoming much more of a bigger kind of centre stage conversation. I'm an action point in a moment which is fantastic because this is something I've been involved in kind as long as I can remember. So I work directly with organisations like, um Unesco, lots of different professional bodies. It's kind of a huge driver for me. So one thing to kind of look out for that's coming very soon. I'm seeing an issue around around measurement in this area. You know, we're seeing consumers becoming more and more conscious and employees, you know you want to work for by from advocate organisations that have that same value alignment that you have personally and professionally, hugely important. We're seeing some great reports coming out around better e S g measurement. But it can be hard to compare between different organisations, so we are getting more transparency. But it's difficult sometimes to make fare comparisons. Um, so what I'm trying to do a lot of work on at the moment is how you go beyond that transparency to commitment to accountability and that deeper level and that comparability. So I would say kind of to the audience moment, Look out for a bit of a new index. It's going to help people, I think, make those conscious choices make informed choices. So it's something I'm super, super passionate about. I want to try and take that to next level in terms of its actualisation. >>That's awesome. And certainly we'll link to it on our site. All the work you're doing on interviews will put links there as well. We'll make sure we'll follow up on that. Great to have you on. You're such an inspiration. Amazing work, cutting edge work. And I'm I'm super impressed with the cyber studies, and I think this is really important. I have to ask you a final question because you're in the middle of it again with covid and the unfortunate situations we've been living with Covid. And now, obviously with this Ukraine situation that the cyber has been pulled to the front of the agenda and you're seeing a cultural shift. You certainly got Web three. Cyber is now part of everyone's life, and they can see it. They've been seeing it living it. Everything's been pulled forward as a cultural shift happening, okay, and and it's really interesting right now, and I want to get your thoughts because this now people are now aware what cyberwar means cyber security cyber. At home, I have remote work. Cyber has become front and centre or digital. However you want to call it in our lives pulled forward. >>So I'm not even sure in some >>cases, maybe rightfully so, and others. What's your view on this whole cultural cyber being pulled forward? >>It is. It's really, really interesting. And so one of the things I do is I am now ready to a Cyber Insights magazine as well. So we're developing a lot of content pieces around this and lots of things I'm seeing here. So your covid point, I think one of the most interesting things there is around literacy. For example, you remember when we went back to 18 months ago? We're having daily briefings, whether that's from from UK Parliament or the U. S. Equivalent. And different phrases were coming into everyday language driven by the curve or driven by the data. And they're coming into everyday life and people family kitchen table. It was something that hasn't been spoken about before, but suddenly it was driving everyday decision making and what you could and couldn't do. And that's raised awareness. And I think it helped people to ask better questions and to challenge things that they're seeing. And where has that data come from? How has it been presented to have seen that there? I think similarly, where we're having that same understanding and raise of questioning around what we're hearing around cyber as well. You're looking at where that source has come from, and how can we look at that in a different way? So again, I think it's raising that awareness, which is really, really crucial, >>the >>other thing as well around cyber security in particular. And again, I don't think this is talked about as much. When we talk about aspects around inclusion, we talk about diversity equity. Um, I'll see inclusion. I talk about belonging a lot as well. I think there's other aspects around sustainability that Inter relate as well, because when we find, for example, communities that are not included, they tend to be more adversely affected by, for example, climate factors as well. There's an interrelation. They're equally We find that people that haven't got, for example, the same level of cybersecurity protection are also in that same. There's an interrelation across all those elements were not talking about that either. So that's the other thing. I want to kind of bring attention to their again. They aren't separate conversations is a huge crossover between these different conversations and actions that we can do to make a difference. So there's some positive aspects about things that have happened over the last period of time and also some challenges that if we're aware of them, we can work together again, that collaboration piece to be able to overcome them. You know, I've got I've got a book coming out, all for charity called Tech for Good and one of my kind of tag lines. There is around contagion of positive change. Again, let's reframe the language around what's been happening. And let's kind of put that together is something that's far more positive. >>Language is super important, great >>content here. So >>thanks so much for coming. I really appreciate all the great insight and taking the time out of your busy day to to join us here in the Cube. Women in tech Global Event. Thank you so much. >>My absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you all for watching. >>Okay. The cubes presentation of women in text. Global event Celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John for a host of the Cube. Thanks for watching

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost. We are joined by Jeffrey Snuffer. He is a technical fellow, Oh three 65 intelligence substrate at Microsoft. Most famous for being the father of PowerShell and one of the key architects of the window server. Thank you so much for coming on, for returning to the show. Yeah, thanks. It's great to be back. So first of all, define your, you're relatively new to this role, so tell us a little bit about what you're doing and what is the intelligent substrate. >> Yes, so you know, a lot of people get this confused as intelligence substrate. There's all three 65 the Microsoft graph. And when I do, as I say, Hey, the best way to think about this as an analogy to an operating system, operating systems are complex, but at the end of the day, they're really, really simple. >>They only do three things. They manage and protect resources. They provide services for developers, right services, API APIs and common controls. And then they provide a base set of applications and a way to get additional applications. So windows manage, CPU, memory, the services when 32 API eyes and then the applications like the browser, et cetera. So all three 65 can really be viewed as an operating system. Sounds strange. Why? Because most operating systems have been operating systems for devices, an operating system for phone, an operating system for a PC and operating system for a server. This is an operating system for people and organizations. So when we think about those three responsibilities, resources and you know, protecting and managing resources, these are the resources for people in organizations. So it's their identity, their, their emails, their chats, their documents, services for developers. These where there's wind 32 for windows, we have ms graph, that's our public API, but then we have services to be able to create, collaborate and communicate documents and interactions. >>And then the applications are things like teams and outlook, et cetera. And so then, Oh, sorry. Then the substrate, the substrate, sort of at the core of it. That's one of our core services. It is storage and then a set of services to manage that and set of services. So the storage is basically a planetary scale, no sequel data store. So every time you create a chat and email document or whatever, it gets stored in the substrate and then three additional copies are created, one of them at least 250 miles away. That's why our date availability and high availability are one thing. So everything gets stored there and then that allows us to do common services like search against it. Does that make sense, >>Jeffrey? Well, one of the biggest challenge people have is when you learn about something and then it has changed an awful lot. Yeah. I think back to the first time I used Microsoft word, Microsoft Excel, it wasn't connected to the internet exactly. Let alone talking about the era of global scale in AI and all of these things that can do in. So maybe give us a fresh as if I'm a brand new person and I, you know, I don't have the, you know, all of the legacy history with the Microsoft office family. What, what is the new, you know, people O us that you're talking about? >>Yeah. So I like to think of it as a back to the original office 1.0, if you remember the original office 1.0, you'd had word, Excel and PowerPoint. And I like to joke, I say it was integrated with the advanced technology at that day of called cardboard, right? We just took the, the, the floppy disks from each one of those products, put it in a cardboard box and said it's a suite. But then it was a vision to a vision of how things should work together to help the individual. And then after that version one, then we reorganized the organization to have common technology teams. And that's when we started to get common controls, common user experience, et cetera, common file formats. Uh, and then it became a true integrated suite. Same thing happened when we went to the cloud. We had all these products that would have a front end couple to a back end, another front end, couple to a back end, another front end coupled a backend. >>Each one would have one or more SDKs, et cetera. And when we first brought them to the cloud, it was the same sort of thing, integrate it with an offering and a name. But there was a vision there. And then that vision drove the reality. And what we did was we said, Hey, let's figure out how to have a common storage for these things. Common backend, a common way to communicate, a common way to do messaging. And then that took a number of years. But that's what drives this consistency. And so that's why when you go and you say, I would like to search for something, you'll find that term, whether it's in your word documents or it's in your emails or your team chats or anything. It's that commonality that makes it answered question. It >>does. Um, so it's, I think about, you know, the era of collaboration and, you know, there were competitors to Microsoft that came out that were built on the internet and you know, deliver those solutions. So this week we've talked to, we haven't dug deep deep into teams, but everyone we've talked to that's using it, it's like, no, really this is a really great product and almost like, you know, forget about some of the things you might have remembered through some of those iterations and changes and things not working together. You know, teams has been built and is allowing some great collaboration, communication with remote workers, smaller businesses, the likes. So it's tough because especially if you're using one tool and you've gone over to some other tool set, it's like, Oh, I don't, why would I go back to that? But it's a very different, uh, Microsoft productivity suite today than, than we might have used in the past. >>That's exactly correct. And then the, into the, uh, uh, intelligent substrate is this layer of AI on top of the substrate, right? So part of that is search, but then we're also doing natural language processing. So basically imagine you saw a store of file in in a one drive that gets stored in one drive and a workflow gets kicked off and that workflow then goes and analyzes the contents of that file and create search terms, et cetera. So we then have common search and then we've got natural language processing that'll go and find, Hey, what are the key points for that document? How do I summarize that document? So then if you see it somewhere you can say, Oh, show me the file card. And I'll say, here's this document. You don't have to read the whole thing. Here are the three key points about it. >>And so the, this is, so to answer the question, why would a, why would a platform guy be working in office? It turns out that to build this AI infrastructure, it's really sort of a platform play. There's key advances that need to be made in, in AI. But actually when you get involved in AI, what you realize is what we really need is more engineering than more science. We need more science, no doubt about it. But boy, is there a need for engineering? Like I need to figure out how to get three to five to seven orders of magnitude more volume of AI going through the system. So when you talk about these key advances in AI that need to be made in terms of of applying them to O three 65 describe them for us and talk about how they will change the future of work and the way we collaborate with our team members in the way we communicate with our team members and, and in our productivity. >>Yeah. So this is where I get so excited about Microsoft's play, right? Because when I decided at the end of last year that I was gonna make a new change, I had a number of opportunities both inside and outside the company. And so the, the thing that really made me say, this is where I want to go was, well, one, it was most important new technology, AI on our most precious business asset, our customers data. So that was very exciting for really got me over the edge was Microsoft's approach to AI. Microsoft takes a very different approach to AI than our competitors, right? The heart of most AI is trying to figure out you and you to achieve some result. Now our competitors do that to try and get you to click a button to buy an ad or to buy something you don't need or subvert some government that they want subverted, right? >>That's none of our peg objectives. We want to understand you for exactly one reason to make you successful, right? How do we, like in the past, people would throw the rock at Microsoft, say, Oh, you know, when I use Microsoft products, I got to understand the Microsoft org chart. You know, you ship my org chart. What they're really saying is that they have to understand the tools to get their job done. They have to navigate the tools. What we're trying to do is have the tools understand the person to help the person, help that person get their job done. So there's this great show, I think it was called the remains of day today, the movie with Anthony Hopkins, he played a Butler. And in that he did some research and he talked to the Butler of Buckingham palace who'd been there for 50 years and he said the essence of a great Butler is that he makes the room emptier when he enters. >>What's that mean? Well, when the, when someone sits down the magazine that they want, is there, the drink that they want is there. It just, it just all works out. Well, that's not my experience with computers today. I mean, how many times do you, you know, you end up at the end of the day and you're like, your spouse says, what'd you do to you day? You're like, wow, I dunno. I dunno. I'm just exhausted. Well, it shouldn't, doesn't have to be that way. What we want to do is to have the computer understand you, understand your objectives and not have some big splashy AI. It just, Oh, things just work. Oh, I'm coming to this meeting. Oh, the information I need for that meeting is just there. Oh, it prepped me and knew that I had a few minutes. And so it gave me a few minutes where it's a prep and things just flow. And at the end of the, you know, success will be when you end the day with more energy than you start it. Like that's a big tall tale, a big tall effort. But that's where we're going for that. Get stalled. >>Yeah. Well we, we found that the, the word that has summarized this week for us is one that Satya said over and over again and it was trust. So in today's day and age, there's a lot of cynicism and especially looking at big tech companies, you did a presentation talking about AI in social responsibility. You tease out a little bit of it there as to why you believe Microsoft is well intentioned with AI, but maybe share a little bit more about that vision for social responsibility and you know, where we need to go with AI as an industry as a whole. >>Yeah, exactly. So there's kinda two key points. First is I think there's a, a very vast, uh, misunderstanding of the state of AI Kang. It really is best understood as software 2.0 and we've been at software 1.0 for about 75 years and I don't think anybody thinks we're doing a particularly great job at event. I think we've started to make progress starting around the 1990s with the, with the core principles of, of uh, the worldwide web. That's when we started to really make some progress. But we still have lots of world's problems. So we're at software 2.0 we're at the very beginning of the beginning of the beginning. Now here's the point. The innovators set the field, the innovators set the path. And in AI it's important for Microsoft to be one of the key innovators here because of our approach, because we're standing up and saying, wait, there's great promise. >>There's great challenges, right? There are privacy challenges. There's data bias challenges, there's inclusivity challenges. There are things that really need to be addressed by governments, local legislation and global governments. Brad Smith has been particularly vocal on this and the need for a digital, the only way you're going to solve the problem of autonomous killer robots, which is a real thing, is by a digital Geneva convention. We, Microsoft can't solve that. IBM can solve that. Google can't solve that. Governments need to solve that. And so Microsoft is being very proactive in engaging the communities around these problems. For myself, for instance, I've been working with some of the security researchers to say, okay, well, software 2.0 how do you do threat model on machine learning? Nobody knows. Like literally nobody knows. And so we've been working over the course of the last year to produce a taxonomy of attacks. Now this is the initial thing, but it sparks a conversation as we've shown it to various government people and other, uh, competitors. Uh, they're very excited about this, about trying to join this in, to identify the class of attacks. Because once you can understand the class of attacks, then you begin understanding, well, how do I defend against those? But literally it doesn't exist. So, >>so talking about autonomous killer robots, I'm very worried now. So how do you, Jeffrey said you're talking about Microsoft's more measured approach and as you said, you are working with governments and work in reaching out to policy makers and regulators to talk about these things. Maybe unlike some other technology companies that aren't doing that. How do, are you a tech optimist at the end of the day or are you, but does it keep you up at night these, these, Nope. Nope, >>not at all. Not at all. No. I'm a wild Technomic dumbest people like are very pessimistic and I just like, yeah. You know, no. Like, let me give you an example, right? There's this, this thing that says, Oh, an autonomous car turns the corner at a high speed and it has to decide between killing two old man and a and a woman in a baby carriage. Right? And it's wide. This is a Philip philosophic philosophy problem called the trolley problem. Oh, a trolley driver has to pull a switch a, uh, and it was like over a hundred years old in the a hundred plus years that that's upon posited, there's been exactly zero trolley drivers ever put in this position. Just, it's just not an issue. Look, there are real issues. We do have to work these things. I'd say the biggest worry is not these killer robots or the autonomous cars going wild. >>It is complacency. It is overconfidence. It says, Oh, I got something to work. Let's just ship it. Like there's a lot of brittleness in these AI systems, right? Like, Oh, this works and it can be spectacular, but then this is a complete disaster and that's a complete disaster. So how do we get that taxonomy of like, Hey, when do we know when we're done? How do we test these things? How do I have like a, a secure supply chain for the data models as well as the code itself? You know, so. So I think that software one no doubt does not provide us any of the answers to the challenges of software 2.0 but I do believe that software 1.0 and its challenges tell us the areas that we need to apply our, our mindset to. And that's what we're doing. So >>Jeffrey, before we let you go, we do need to get the update on PowerShell. I have to say, ever since I've first talked to you, I feel like more and more when I go to shows, I hear people just talking about how it's helping their career, helping their business and in doing it, I don't know if it's just because you know, it was brought to the front of the mind and it's like, Oh no, I'm used to seeing that car model out there. But can you give us the latest on power shell even though you're no longer in that group? Oh yeah. I continue to meet with them all the time. >>I'm very active in PowerShell. So we took power shell and made a cross platform to run analytics. We've talked about that and I don't know where we were when we talked about that, but basically we sort of did it for our own purposes, right? We need to manage the world's estate and so we want to have a common infrastructure for doing that. And the joke was that the point is like, look, we're not confused. We don't think that the Unix people are going to greet us as liberator's. Like all, thank heavens, you know, I've been dying under this bash and such. Thank God Microsoft came to save us, right? There's no confusion. We'll surprise. We shifted and then the vast majority, the numbers are crazy. How many Linux people are using PowerShell. It's just insane and we don't really understand it. We're out there talking to people, but they just love it. >>So anyway, so PowerShell version seven is coming out. It'll come out officially at the end of the year, beginning of next year, and this really is the tool that then you can use to manage everything. Both windows and Linux. We have parallel for each, so you can do massive scale. But that's the one that really just brings all the pieces together and gains the critical mass. So we're very excited about it. always a scintillating conversation when you come on the show. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite.

>> From the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering AT&T Spark. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Maribel Lopez, the founder of Lopez Research, and I am guest hosting theCUBE at the AT&T Spark event in San Francisco. And I have the great pleasure of being with Vishy Gopalakrishnan. He is the VP of ecosystems and innovation at AT&T. And Vishy, I've known you for a long time now. I've known you through companies that are as diverse as SAP to AT&T. Could you tell us a little bit about what VP of ecosystem and innovation does and this concept of the foundry that AT&T is having? >> Sure. First of all nice to see you again, Maribel. >> Paths cross. No new people, just different business cards. >> Exactly. So ecosystem and innovation. So this organization has been around at AT&T for about seven years or so. And it was set up to fundamentally answer this question: How can AT&T systematically tap into innovation that happens outside the company and then bring it inside, and then over a period of time become as good at adopting some of those principles of innovative thinking, innovative principles of problem-solving into the company itself? So if you think about ecosystem and innovation, there are three key pillars to ecosystem and innovation. One of them is called ecosystem outreach. So this is a part of the organization that acts as the interface to the broader startup NVC community. >> Right. >> Right. So this allows us to keep on top of innovation happening across a wide variety of technology waterfronts. Networking, security, virtualization, all the way up to AR, VR, AI machine-learning, et cetera. >> It wouldn't be innovation if they weren't together, right? People try to really parse them, but true innovation comes of looking at some of the intersections of technology. >> Absolutely. And we're also agnostic in some sense about where the innovation comes from. 'Cause all we're trying to do is apply innovation to a particular business problem. And the foundry is the second component of the ecosystem and innovation organization. Think of the foundry as centers of innovation. There are six of them around the globe. Four in the US, one in Tel Aviv, Israel, and the newest one in Mexico City that we opened in March. And these foundries represent fundamentally an environment within AT&T where we can rapidly prototype new technologies, de-risk new technologies before we introduce them into the rest of the organization and actually also provide a way for us to bring proactively new, promising areas of technology to the rest of the business. So the foundries, if you will, serve as the leading edge of technology innovation within a company like AT&T. >> Well I've been in The Valley for more than 10 years now, and I came from the East Coast, and the concept of an innovation lab and innovation foundry isn't new. We've seen it come and go with established companies and with new companies. So I remember the launch of the foundry. You said it's about seven years ago, now. I can't believe it's even been that long. What have you learned in that time, and how are you making it work? Because I think everybody wants to be innovative, and they want to take, particularly established companies, these innovations and bring them back into the corporation. Can you give us a little more color and context on what you think you've done well and what surprised you? >> That's a great point to make about the relative longevity of the organization within a company like AT&T. >> And it's grown, apparently, with all the new innovation centers. >> Yes. And we've expanded to other locations outside. I think some of the lessons we've learned are that no organization stands still. >> True. >> AT&T as we know it today is different from what AT&T was seven years ago. The kinds of businesses we're in, the kinds of capabilities that we have to bring to bear, markedly different from what it was seven years ago. And the nature of the competitive waterfront is also dramatically different. So, which means that as an innovation organization, we've had to evolve almost lockstep and sometimes ahead of the organization itself. So that's been one thing that we've done, is that we've made sure that we always are aware of where the company's going, so that as we look at what kinds of innovation might apply, might be relevant, might be material for the corporation, we know that it's always grounded in what the company wants to do now, in about two years from now. >> So forget the science projects and try to get something that's practical to the business, but also a bit edgy, right? >> Yes. >> You want to be edgy. >> Yes, and it's an art and a science. We like to focus on innovation that's in context. So pure innovation is kind of interesting, but we always like to bring it back to either an internal stakeholder or an external customer as a stakeholder to sign off and be almost the kind of the voice of reason to say yes, this is interesting technology, but this is how it might or might not apply to my business problem. >> Do they ask you for things? Does the organization come to you and say, "Hey, we're looking for blah and..."? >> Absolutely. In fact, a big part of what we do as an organization is actually keep the dialogue with the internal stakeholders kind of ongoing and active, so that we always need to be aware of, from a business standpoint, what are the imperatives that a business leader is facing. 'Cause let's face it, a lot of these business leaders within a corporation as large as AT&T are running P&Ls that are pretty large. So for us to bring relevant and material innovation to them, we have to be aware of what are the two or three top, key problem areas that they're looking at. Is it cost reduction? Is it operational simplification? If it's a big part for network organization, what parts of network optimization are they most interested in? So being aware of that informs us better and in some sense helps us curate what kinds of innovative solutions we bring to them. >> Now you are talking about how you put these innovation engines around the globe, and I imagine that you are learning and gaining different things and insights from these different groups because there are phenomenally different ways people use technology depending where they are in the world. So can you share a little bit with us about what's exciting, what you're seeing in the labs today, are there geographic differences that we should be aware of as business leaders when we think of trying to roll out technologies? >> Sure. I'll give a two-part answer. One of it from areas of kind of focus for us. >> Okay. >> One as we just finished the panel on edge compute, so that's a big focus for the foundry organization, is trying to understand the use cases in which edge computing might actually give a pretty dramatic improvement in user experience, what is the role of the network edge in doing that, so working with a broad ecosystem of partners, both established and start-ups to actually make that happen. So that's one big area of focus. The other thing we're doing is... A big part of AT&T's business is actually focused on the enterprise side to AT&T business. So we have two foundry locations, one in Plano and one in Houston, that are focused exclusively on customer co-creation with our enterprise customers. For the past five years, we focused exclusively on IOT and used the Plano foundry to co-create around IOT for customers. In terms of differences across geographies, I think the most salient one is the one in Mexico City. We actually started that with the very explicit intent of innovating for emerging markets. Emerging markets have the need for high-performing, high-quality solutions. >> At a low cost. >> Exactly. So you need to deliver them at a much, much lower cost than the emerging markets actually will bear. So which means that you have to frame the problem differently, you have to go about innovation very differently, and oftentimes, you'll have to tap into the local innovation ecosystem as well. So that's a big, big part of what we're doing in Mexico as well. Trying to tap into the global network that we have as a company through all of the six foundry locations but making sure that we're tailoring it to what the local Mexican market needs. >> I'm actually very excited to see how innovation has been rolling out around the world. One of the things that comes up in every dialogue I have around innovation right now and frankly in most products is AI. Do you see a role of AI happening in the foundry today? >> Yeah we've been doing work on AI for quite some time. In fact, we've been doing a series of projects for our internal organization around applying machine-learning techniques to some very complex network optimization problems. And we're doing that for about 18 months or so. And we've been looking at even ways to apply reinforcement learning to some very classic network problems as well. As part of some of the work that we're doing around edge, we're looking at ways to do influencing at the edge. For a variety of use cases, including, for example, a public safety or a first-responder kind of a use case. So absolutely, AI and machine-learning continue to be one of the areas that we spend a lot of time on. >> Well Vishy, it's been great talking to you today here at AT&T's shape, and look forward to seeing you again soon. >> Thank you, Maribel. Likewise. >> Maribel Lopez, speaking with theCUBE. Thank you. (upbeat music)

>> From the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering AT&T Spark. (techy music) Now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here at theCUBE. We're at AT&T's Spark event, it's up in San Francisco at the Palace of Fine Arts. It's really all about 5G, and we're excited to be here, you know, there's been a lot of conversation about 5G for a very, very long time, and we're super excited to have the expert in the field. Maribel Lopez has been following this forever. So Maribel, first off, thanks for stopping by, thanks for hosting a few segments and great to catch up. >> Excited to be here. >> Absolutely, so 5G, you've made a funny comment before we went on. You said, "Jeff, this 5G's been going on "forever and ever and ever, but now it's finally "starting to come to reality, to fruition." >> Yeah, I got to see all the Gs: the 2G, the 3G, the 4G, now the 5G, and you know, for a couple of years we were just talking about standards, and what's really exciting to me is that now people are talking about doing production stuff, you know, not just rolling in a test van and prototype equipment, but actual things that we might be able to see deployed within the coming year. >> Right. >> People are talking about lighting up cities. AT&T announced another five cities that they were going to put, actually seven, I think, on the calendar. >> Up to a dozen, I think, now, then they had another-- >> Yes, they had seven, they added another five-- >> Seven after that, right. >> And then another seven, so we're really starting to see momentum in 5G, it's going to happen. >> Right, so there's a bunch of things with 5G that are fundamentally different than the last G. >> Right. >> And the first one, right, is it wasn't really developed just for faster voice. That was not the objective of 5G. >> Yeah. >> It's really to take advantage of IoT and this whole kind of machine to machine world in which we're in right now. >> Yeah. >> That's a fundamental difference in terms of the applications that it can open up. >> Yeah, we're seeing... To your point, I mean, we talked a lot about bandwidth before. Yes, you get more bandwidth, but you also get lower latency, and that's the thing of how fast something can travel, and that opens up a huge amount of new applications like autonomous driving. If you want a wireless connection in autonomous driving you need 5G so you have that, you know, really sharp response time to make it happen. If you're doing remote medicine, you know, 5G gives you both bandwidth, but also the latency to see if something's happening so that you can do things that are real-time in nature. So, I think it's that real-time in nature with high speed that everybody's talking about. We saw eSports and gaming listed today, and the discussion about how you could now do it on a low-end PC because between your 5G network and new software you've got this huge opportunity with the cloud to just do a whole new, different way of gaming and entertainment, so lots of great applications are coming out with 5G. >> Yeah, it's pretty interesting on that demo, because it was an NVIDIA guy talking about-- >> Yes. >> Having basically an NVIDIA data center to do all the graphic computation back in the cloud at the NVIDIA data center-- >> Yeah. >> And then delivering it to whatever kind of low-end edge device that you had, in this case a laptop. The funny thing about the latency that I thought really kind of struck home for me was they talked about when your audio and your video are slightly out of sync when you're watching a video. >> Exactly. >> When it's just off a little bit. >> Mm-hm. >> Not enough like, "Wait, this is broken," but enough to actually get nausea. >> Yeah. >> You actually have a physical reaction, so I think that was really interesting. That is what's going to go away when we have the better connectivity speeds, everything else with 5G. >> And I think that's when one of the things that's been holding back the immersive nature of new applications like VR, so that disconnect that you talked about is really important to get rid of that, and you can get rid of part of that with wireless and part of it with low latency. So, if we get the headsets a little smaller and we get more content I think we'll start to get a better vision of what's happening there. I also think we're starting to see these things come into the enterprise. You know, the enterprises are really taking 5G seriously. They're looking at doing things like their own private 5G networks in things like manufacturing and robotics, for example. >> Right, right, yeah, the private 5G, interesting, in a lot of conversation, too, about doing it for the first responders to have their own dedicated network, but one of the topics I thought interesting was the commitment to software and the commitment to opensource, and we've kind of seen the rise of the telcos and OpenStack. >> Yeah. >> We've been covering OpenStack, I think since 2013, and you could see with each and every passing year that the telco presence within the OpenStack community just increased and it really seemed to find a home, and here they dedicated a whole keynote session to AT&T's embracing of opensource. >> Yeah, opensource is actually interesting because I think it's counterintuitive to think that a large enterprise customer like AT&T would go so deep into opensource, but when you really think of it, if you want to be innovative and you want to run at, you know, what we now consider cloud speed-- >> Right. >> Digital native speed, then you need to have that concept of opensource and open APIs to build on top of so that really what you're focusing on is the part of your business that differentiates you, not on building the whole stack. So, the days of building, like, your whole stack from scratch are over, and opensource is really important, and what I found really interesting about that was the takeaway that so many companies, even competitors of each other, had all thrown in on this concept of this opensource technology so that they could basically bootstrap their innovation. >> Right, the other kind of theme that kind of came up, which I found really interesting, is if you've ever seen Jeff Bezos speak on his investment in Blue Origin. >> Yeah. >> He talks very specifically that he wants to put a platform in play-- >> Mm-hm. >> Leveraging the winnings that he's gotten from Amazon to enable future entrepreneurs to have an infrastructure in which they can build cool applications-- >> Absolutely. >> In this case for space. We heard the same message here within this kind of 5G, that the concept of, you know, kind of infinite compute, infinite bandwidth-- >> Right. >> And infinite storage asymptotically approaching zero, what applications would you build in that world, and really this constant conversation of experience, whether that be a business experience, a consumer experience-- >> Yeah. >> A first responder experience, is really what's behind kind of the excitement on this 5G conversation. >> I think there was always a disconnect of when you get data, and how quickly you can analyze that data and get it back to somebody to do something meaningful, so this whole experience is about even if you are not holding a 5G handset or some 5G thing in your hand or elsewhere, what that will do is because they've built the 5G infrastructure you get the opportunity to make 4G better for everybody. So, I think people think, "Oh, I've got to wait for 5G." It's like, "No, you're going to see the benefits "of 5G long before everybody's ubiquitously deployed, "long before everybody has 5G devices." >> Right. >> Things are just going to work better, and you can get that data faster and new experiences faster, so I'm excited for it. >> Right, and then the other piece that we hear over and over, right, is AI and machine learning, and again-- >> Absolutely, mm-hm. >> It's not AI and machine learning just for the sake of AI and machine learning. It's baked into all these other applications to make them all work better, and again, that's another big thing that we hear here at the keynotes. >> Yeah, I think the AI and machine learning is interesting because we've had it for a long time, but now everybody has access to it, right? We've got cloud services that give you algorithms, we've got massive compute, and now we've got the ability to take all the data from IoT sensors and other things and get it back to either a centralized place, or to do edge compute on it, which I think is really exciting. >> Right, so just to wrap, get your kind of your final impressions on kind of the show-- >> Yeah. >> And again, you said you'd been here for all the Gs, (laughs) so is a 5G, is this a big difference from our prior step functions? >> I think it is because of that latency that we talked about and the ability to do much more real-time, data intensive apps. So, you've always had this concept of moving to more data, but it had lower latency, it might've had a higher cost. Now we're getting that right kind of combination of cost, bandwidth, real-time nature, so I think every G gets better and 5G is just better than 4G, but in different ways, so-- >> All right, well Maribel, thanks again for stopping by, and also for helping us out guest hosting a few segments. >> Thank you. >> All right, (chuckles) she's Maribel, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at AT&T Spark in San Francisco, thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> From the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering AT&T Spark. (bubbly music) >> Hello! I'm Maribel Lopez, the Founder of Lopez Research, and I am here today at the AT&T Spark event in San Francisco and I have great pleasure and honor of interviewing Mazin Gilbert, who is the VP of Advanced Technology and Systems at AT&T. We've been talking a lot today, and welcome Mazin. >> Thank you, Maribel for having us. >> We've been talking a lot today about 5G, 5G is like the first and foremost topic on a lot of people's mind that came to the event today, but I thought we might step back for those that aren't as familiar with 5G, and maybe we could do a little 5G 101 with Mazin. What's going on with 5G? Tell us about what 5G is and why it's so important to our future. >> 5G is not another G. (Maribel laughs) It really is a transformational and a revolution really to not to what we're doing as a company, but to society and humanity in general. It would really free us to be mobile, untethered, and to explore new experiences that we've never had before. >> Do I think of this as just faster 4G? Because we had 2G, then 3G, then 4G, is 5G something different? When you say it allows us to be mobile and untethered, don't we already have that? >> No we don't. There are a lot of experiences that are not possible to do today. So imagine that having multiple teenagers experiencing virtual reality, augmented reality, all mobile, while they are in the car all in different countries; we can't have that kind of an experience today. Imagine cars as we move towards autonomous cars, we cannot do autonomous cars today without the intelligence, the speeds and the latency with 5G, so that all cars connect and talk to each other in a split of a second. >> See, I think that's one of the real benefits of this concept of 5G. So when you talk about 5G, 5G is yes more bandwidth, but also lower latency, and that's going to allow the things that you're talking about. I know that you also mention things such as telemedicine, and FirstNet network, any other examples that you're seeing that you think are really going to add a difference to peoples lives going forward as they look at 5G? >> 5G is a key enabler in terms of how these experiences are going to really be transformed. But when you bring in 5G with the edge compute. Today, think of compute, and storage, and securing everything, is sitting somewhere, and as you're talking, that something goes to some unknown place. In the 5G era, with the edge, think of computer storage as following you. And now-- >> So you're your own data center. (laughs) >> You're pretty much your own data center. Wherever you go with every corner, there's a data center following you right there. And now add to that, we're transforming our network to be programmable with our software-defined network, and add AI into that, bringing all of this diamond together, the 5G, the edge, programming the network with software-defined, and AI, and that is what the new experiences is. This is when you'll start seeing really an autonomous world. A world in which that we're able to experience drones flying and repairing cell sites, or repairing oil tanks, without us really being involved, from being in our living room watching a movie. This is a world that is extremely fascinating, a world in which that people can interact and experience family reunion, all virtually in the same room, but they're all in different countries. >> I do think there's this breakthrough power of connectivity. We've talked about it in the next generation of telemedicine, you mentioned some of the dangerous jobs that we'd be able to use drones for, not just for sort of hovering over peoples gorgeous monuments or other things that we've seen as the initial deployments, but something that's really meaningful. Now I know the other topic that has come up quite a bit, is this topic of opensource, and you're in the advanced technology group, and sometimes I think that people don't equate the concept of opensource with large established organizations, like an AT&T, but yet, you made the case that this was foundational and critical for your innovation, can you tell us a little bit more about that? >> Opensource is really part of our DNA. If you look at the inventions of the Unix, C, C++, all originated from AT&T Labs and Bell Labs, we've always been part of that opensource community. But really in the past five years, I think opensource has moved to a completely another level. Because now we're not just talking about opensource, we're talking about open platforms, we're talking about open APIs. What that means is that, we're now into-- >> A lot of open here. (laughs) >> Everything open in here. And what that really means is that we no longer as one company, no one company in the world can make it on their own. The world-- >> K, this is a big difference. >> It's a big difference. The world is getting smaller, and companies together, for us to really drive these transformational experiences companies need to collaborate and work with each other. And this is really what opensource is, is that, think of what we've done with our software-defined network, what we called ONAP in the opensource, we started as a one company, and there was another, one of the Chinese mobile companies also had a source code in there. In the past one year, we now have a hundred companies, some of the biggest brand companies, all collaborating to building open APIs. But why the opensource and open API is important, enables collaboration, expedite innovation, we've done more in the past one year than what we could've done alone for 10 years, and that's really the power of opensource and open platforms >> I totally agree with you on this one. One of the things that we've really seen happen is as newer companies, these theoretically innovative companies have come online, cloud native companies, they've been very big on this open proponent, but we're also seeing large established companies move in the same direction, and it's allowing every organization to have that deeply innovative, flexible architecture that allows them to build new services without things breaking, so I think it's very exciting to see the breadth of companies that you had on stage talking about this, and the breadth of companies that are now in that. And the other thing that's interesting about it is they're competitors as well, right? So, there's that little bit of a edgy coopetition that's happening, but it's interesting to see that everybody feels that there's room for intense innovation in that space as well. So we've talked a little bit about opensource, we've talked about 5G, you are in advanced technology, and I think we'd be remiss to not talk about the big two letter acronym that's in the room that's not 5G, which would be AI. Tell me what's going on with AI, how are you guys thinking about it, what advice do you have for other organizations that are approaching it? Because you are actually a huge developer of AI across your entire organization, so maybe you could tee up a little bit about how that works. >> AI is transformational, and fundamental for AT&T. We have always developed AI solutions, and we were the first to deploy a AI in call centers 20 years ago. >> 20 years ago, really? >> 20 years ago. >> You were doing AI 20 years ago? >> 20 years ago. >> See, just goes to show. >> 20 years ago. I mean AI really, if you go to the source of AI, it really goes in the '40s and '50s with pioneers like Shannon and others. But the first deployment in a commercial call center, not a pilot, was really by AT&T. >> An actual implementation, yeah. >> With a service, we called it how may I help you. And the reason we put that out, because our customers were annoyed with press one for this and press two for billing, they wanted to speak naturally. And so we put the system that says "How may I help you?" and how may I help you allowed the customer to tell us in their own language, in their own words, what is it that they want from us as opposed to really dictating to them what they have to say Now today, it's really very hard for you to call any company in the world, without getting a service that uses some form of speech recognition or speech understanding. >> Thankfully. (laughs) >> But where we're applying it today and have been for the past two, three years, we're finding some really amazing opportunities that we've never imagined before. AI in its essence, is nothing more than automation leveraging data. So using your data as the oil, as the foundation, and driving automation, and that automation could be complete automation of a service, or it could be helping the human to doing their job better and faster. It could be helping a doctor in finding information about patients that they couldn't have done by themselves by processing a million records all together. We're doing the same thing at AT&T. The network is the most complex project ever to be created on the planet. And it's a complex project that changes every second of the day as people move around, and they try different devices. And so to be able to optimize that experience, is really an AI problem, so we apply it today to identify where to build the next cell sites all the way to what's the right ad to show to the customer, or, how do we really make your life easier with our services without you really calling our call center, how do I diagnose and repair your setup box before you're calling us? All of that foundation is really starting to be driven by AI technologies, very exciting. >> Well I'm actually very excited to see where AI takes us, and I'm excited to hear about what you're doing in the future. Thanks for takin' the time to come here today, >> It's my pleasure. >> And be with us on theCUBE. Thank you. >> It's always a pleasure talking to you, thank you very much. >> I'm Maribel Lopez closin' out at AT&T Spark, thank you. (bubbly music)

>> From the palace of fine arts in San Francisco it's the Cube. Covering AT&T Spark, now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco at the AT&T Spark event and it's all about 5G. 5G is this huge revolution and I haven't got a definitive number but it's something on the order of hundred X, improvement of speed and data throughput. There's a lot of excitement but one of the things that is less talked about here but it was actually up on the keynote was really the roll of opensource and AT&T talked a lot about opensource and how important it is and really redefining the company around the speed of software development versus the speed of hardware development and that's a big piece of it. We're excited to have somebody who knows all about opensource our next guest he's Jeff McCaffer. He's the Director of Opensource Progress Officer at Microsoft, did I get that right Jeff? >> No, well it said Opensource Programs Officer. >> Programs Officer. >> Yep. >> So you do all about opensource. >> Yeah. >> Well first off, welcome. >> Thank you very much Jeff, it's good to be here. >> So Microsoft, you know, no one would have ever thought, I mean, you know, I'm probably dating myself. 15 years ago with that Microsoft would be a big component of opensource but in fact they're a huge proponent of opensource. >> Absolutely, even just not so long ago you know, it was not the foremost in everybody's mind that Microsoft would be doing opensource. But now it's a core part of our company. It's a core part of how we work and our engagement with the rest of the industries. So it's really growing and it's continuing to grow. >> So how did it kind of get there and what are some of the real key components that you have to worry about in your role to managing, you know, participating in all these various communities all over the place. >> Yeah, well I mean it's been a long road but it's really the way software's happening today, you mention in the intro about the dispute of software versus hardware and software's just going so fast and you know, you can aspire to be world class but when everybody else starts there with opensource, you know it's really hard to start from zero get to there. So we're really happy to be you know, using opensource and contributing. One of the real challenges we've had going forward is the scale like simply we've got literally millions of uses of opensource across all of our products and services. And managing that, keeping track of it, engaging with those, all those communities and everything is a real big challenge. So we've been building paulo season tools and changing the culture to understand that you know, you need to engage, push fixes back, all those sorts of things. And then when we look at our releasing our software, we have thousands of opensource repositories on GitHub, thousands of developers at Microsoft working on GitHub repositories, our own and others in the community. So it's just managing all of that as being a really big challenge. >> Right and it's interesting cause the opensource projects themselves, we've seen at time and time again. You know, they fork and they go a lot of different directions. There's sometimes disagreement about direction. >> Sure. >> And prioritization, so you've got a kind of manage that within the opensource thread but as well as within, you know, where those products play a role in your products. >> Right, right and we've taken a sort of federated model in the company, we're very diverse as you know right and so my team sort of helps put guidelines in place for for project teams to run and then those project teams run their own program. How they engage with opensource, however they want to and sort of at the level they want to that matches their business requirements. So it ranges everywhere from people who are fully opensource to folks who are just you know, using a little bit of stuff here and there within their products. >> Right, what if you could speak a little to opensource and the role that it plays in employee happiness, employee retention cause you know, there's so much goodness and you see it at these shows. >> Absolutely. >> Where there's particular contributors that you know, they're rock stars in their community. They've made super important contributions. >> Yeah. >> They've managed the community and I always think back, if you're the person managing that person back at the office you know, how much time do they put into their opensource effort? >> Sure. >> How much time do they put in their company efforts? How much of their time is really the company software that's built on top of that opensource. >> Yeah. >> And how do you manage that because it is a really important piece for a lot of people's personas. >> Absolutely. >> And their self values. >> Yeah, well and there's been a lot of research that says also that high performing teams, one of the traits of high performing teams is engaging in opensource. And at the personal level like individuals, there's kind of a different set of possibilities there, you know, either you're engaging in opensource for part of your product work, right, so that's sponsored by the company. Or you might be doing some things on the side or some tangential range in between there, right? >> Right. >> And sort of all of those you need to drive to the appropriate level, the folks who are working on it day to day for their, for the company. There's some really interesting dynamics that can get setup. Super exciting for the team, sometimes it can get a little waylaid maybe but you know, you want to keep them, keep them on task. But then also the, the folks who are doing it of their own volition, like on their own time and that sort of thing. That also brings back a bunch of energy and everything into the workplace. New technologies that they'll discover in their area and they'll bring back the energy and the excitement about engaging back to the regular team. >> Right. >> So there's lots of possibilities there. >> So what brings you here, what brings you to AT&T Spark today? >> Well they invited me to speak on a panel earlier today about opensource and the future of opensource and so I had a, there were a couple of other people from Linux Foundation and from AT&T. So we had a good conversation on stage. >> Yeah it's pretty interesting how, pretty much all these projects you know, eventually get put in to the Linux Foundation. That they, you know, they've just kind of become this defacto steward for a wide variety of opensource projects. >> Yeah, well there's a number of different foundations, Linux Foundation's certainly one of the better known ones, the Eclipse Foundation, Apache. >> Right, Apache yeah, right. >> Been around lots of times doing lots of good things. So there's a ton of amazing projects out there in all of these foundations. And it's just super exciting to see them all be engaging like in this sort of cohesive right, and with a good governance model. >> Right. >> Yep. >> So I'll give you the last word, one of my favorite lines always that's opensource is opensource is free like a puppy. >> Yes, it's totally free like a puppy. >> So, you know, you're living in that world, what is one of the things about opensource that most people miss, one of the really positive attributes that most people just don't see. And then what's one of the big, you know kind of biggest, kind of ongoing challenges, that's just part of operating in this opensource world? >> Well I mean, I phrase it in challenges and opportunities, right, there are obviously lots of challenges, like I was saying with scale and managing security. And the culture change that goes around collaboration and that sort of thing. The opportunities, I think are boundless really, I mean there's, one of the most gratifying things that you can see as an opensource project, is people take your technology and use it in ways you never imagined. Right, so there's, we can think of that as our products too and we take our products and they've got opensource APIs. They've got opensource frameworks and such. And people take them and do amazing things with them that we never imagined possible. And that just, that part is really exciting and invigorating. >> Yeah, alright Jeff well thanks for taking a few minutes. >> Sure. >> Congrats on all your work and I guess we'll see you in Orlando in a month or so. >> Okay, possibly. >> Alright, he's Jeff, I'm Jeff, we're all Jeffs here and we're at the Palace of Fine Arts at AT&T Spark, thanks for watching, see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering AT&T Spark. Now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco at the AT&T Spark event. It's really all about 5G and what 5G is going to enable. You know, this is a really big technology that's very, very close. I think a lot closer than most people understand. And one of the most important components of 5G is it was designed from the ground up really not so much for people-to-people communications as much as machine-to-machine communications. So we're really excited to have someone who's right in the thick of that and talk about the implications, especially another topic that we hear all the time, which is Edge computing. So it's Alicia Abella. She is the VP of Operational Automation in Program Management from AT&T Labs. Alicia, welcome. >> Thank you for having me, Jeff. >> Absolutely. So we were talking a little bit before we turn on the cameras about 5G and Edge computing. And how the two, while not directly tied together, are huge enablers of one another. I wonder if you can unpack a little bit about why is 5G such an important component to kind of the vision of Edge computing? >> Sure, absolutely. Yeah, happy to do so. So Edge computing is really about bringing processing power closer to the end device, closer to the end user, where a lot of the processing data analytics has to occur. And you want to do that because you want to be able to deliver the services and applications close to the edge, close to where the customer is, so that you can deliver on the speeds that those applications need. 5G plays a role because 5G is promising to be very fast and also very reliable and very secure. So now you've got three things to your advantage paired up with Edge to be able to deliver on a lot of these use cases that we hear a lot about when we talk about 5G, when we talk about Edge. Some example use cases are the autonomous vehicle. The autonomous vehicle is a classic example for Edge computing as well as 5G. And in fact, it illustrates a kind of continuum, because you can have processing that always has to remain in the car. Anything related to safety? That processing has to happen right on that device. The device in this case being the car. But there are other processing capabilities, like maybe updates to real-time maps. That could happen on the Edge. You still have to be near real-time, so you want to have that kind of processing and updating happening at the Edge. Then maybe you have something where you want to download some new entertainment, a movie to your car. Well, that can reside back at the data center, further away from where the device or the car is. So you've got this continuum. >> So really, what the 5G does is really open up the balance of how you can distribute that store computing and communications. It's always about latency. At the end of the day, it's always about latency. And as much as we want to get as much compute close, oh, and also, I guess power. Power and latency. >> Power and Edge actually go hand-in-hand as well. >> It's a big deal, right? >> Mhm. >> So what you're saying is, because of 5G, and the fact that now you have a much lower latency, faster connectivity port, you can now have some of that stuff maybe not at the Edge and enable that Edge device to do more, other things? >> Yes, so I often like to say that we are unleashing the device away from having it be tethered to the compute processor that's handling it and now you can go mobile. Because now what you do is, if the processing is happening on the Edge and not on the device, you save on battery life, but you also make the device more lightweight, easier to manage, easier to move around. The form factor can become smaller. So there's also an advantage to Edge computing to the device as well. >> Right. It's pretty interesting. There was an NVIDIA demo in the keynote of running a video game on the NVIDIA chips in a data center and pumping a really high resolution experience back out to the laptop screen I think is what he was using it for. And it's a really interesting use case in how when you do have these fast, reliable networks, you can shift the compute, and not just a peer compute, but the graphics, et cetera, and really start to redistribute that in lots of different ways that were just not even fathomable before. Before you had to buy the big gaming machine. You had to buy the big, giant GPU. You had to have that locally, and all that was running on your local machine. You just showed a demo where it's all running back in their data center in Santa Clara. Really opens up a huge amount of opportunity. >> That's right. So Edge computing is really distributed in nature. I mean, it is all about distribution. And distributing that compute power wherever you need it. Sprinkling it across the country of where you need it. So we've gone, there's been this pendulum shift, where we started with the mainframe, big rooms, lots of air conditioning, and then the pendulum swung over to the PC. And that client-server model. Where now you had your PC and you did your computing locally. And then it swung back the other way for Cloud computing where everything was centralized again and all that compute power was centralized. And now the pendulum is swinging back again the other way to this distributed model where now you've got your compute capabilities distributed across the country where you need it. >> Right. So interesting. I mean, networking was the last of the virtualized platform between storage and compute, and then finally networking. But if you really start to think of a world with basically infinite power, compute, infinite store, and infinite networking, basically asymptotically approaching zero pricing. Think of the world from that way. We're not there. We're never going to get to that absolute place, but it really opens up a lot of different ways to think about what you could do with that power. So I wonder if there's some other things you can share with us. At Labs, you guys are looking forward to this 5G world. What are some of the things that you see that just, wow, I would have never even thought that was even in the realm of possibility that some people are coming up with? >> Yeah. >> Any favorites? >> Oh, I think one of our favorites is certainly looking at the case of manufacturing. Even though you would think of manufacturing as very fixed, the challenge with manufacturing is that a lot of those robotics capabilities that are in the manufacturing assembly lines, for example, they're all based on wires and they can't change and upgrade what they're doing very quickly. So being able to deliver 5G, have things that are wireless, and have Edge compute capabilities that are very powerful means that they can now shift and move around their assembly lines very quickly. So that's going to help the economy. Help those businesses be able to adapt more quickly to changes in their businesses. And so that's one that is quite exciting to us. And I would say the next one that's also exciting for us would be, we talked about autonomous vehicles already, 'cause that one's kind of far out, right? >> I don't think it's as far as most people think, actually. We covered a lot of autonomous vehicle companies, and there's just so much research being done now. I don't think it's as far out as people think. >> Yes, and so I think we are definitely committed to deploying Edge compute. And in the process, from a more technical perspective, I think one of the things that we are going to be interested in doing is, and you alluded to it before, is how do you manage all of those applications and services and distribute them in a way that is economical, that we can do it at scale, that we can do it on demand? So that too is part of what's exciting about being able to deploy Edge. >> Yeah. It's pretty interesting, the manufacturing example, 'cause it came up again in the keynote to really embracing software-defined, embracing open source. And the takeaway was moving at the speed of software development, not moving at the speed of hardware development. Because software moves a lot faster. And can be more flexible. It's easy to respond to market demands, or competitive demands, or just to innovate a lot faster. So really taking that approach, and obviously a lot of conversation about you guys in the open Stack community and the open-source projects enables you and your customers to start to adapt to software-defined innovation as opposed to just pure hardware-defined innovation. >> That's right. That's right, yup. >> Alright, Alicia, I'll give you the final word. Any surprises? Oh, no, you've got a chat coming up, so why don't you give us a quick preview for what your conversation is going to be about later today? >> Yeah, thank you, Jeff. So yeah, later I'll be talking about AT&T's initiatives around encouraging women to pursue stem fields. In particular, computer science. It turns out that the number of women getting undergraduate degrees in computer science peaked in the mid-80s. And it's been going downhill since. Last year, only 17% of women were getting degrees in computer science So AT&T's mission, and what we announced today was a million dollar donation to the Girls Who Code organization. That's one of many different non-profit organizations that AT&T is involved with to make sure that we continue to encourage young women and also underrepresented minorities and others who want to get in the stem fields to get involved because technology is changing very quickly. We need people who can understand the technology, who can develop the software we talked about, and we need to get that pipeline filled up. And so we're very committed to helping the community and helping to encourage young girls to pursue degrees in stem. >> That's great. Girls Who Code is a fantastic organization. We've had 'em on. Anita Borg, I mean, there's so much good work that goes on out there, so that's a great announcement. And congratulations. >> Thank you. >> And I'm sure that's a meaningful contribution. >> Yeah, thank you. >> So Alicia, thanks for stopping by, and good luck this afternoon, and we'll see you next time. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> Alright. >> Appreciate it. >> She's Alicia, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at AT&T Spark in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering AT&T Spark. (techy music) Now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco at the AT&T Spark event. It's all about 5G, you know we've been hearing about 5G for a long, long time, that 5G is coming, it's in cities, there's more cities that it's rolling out to, it's lots of special networks, so we're excited to be here as it becomes real, and we've got a guy who's right in the middle of the weeds, right in all the devices. He's Gordon Mansfield, the VP of converged access and device technology at AT&T, Gordon, welcome. >> Thank you. >> So, what do you think? You've probably been looking at this 5G stuff for a long, long time. It feels like we're finally getting pretty close. >> We're getting really close, you know, we're gearing up to launch our first 12 markets this year, and just this past weekend we made the first end-to-end call across our production network with a mobile form factor device, so we're real close and we're real excited. >> So, that just happened, right, this first call? >> It just happened this past weekend. So, what were some of the final hurdles to finally get that little milestone that you guys have probably been looking forward to for while? >> Yeah, so the final hurdles is really getting the device modems into, you know, that form factor device, that mobile form factor to where it can be portable, you can carry it-- >> Right. >> And make these fantastic mobile data calls, and so getting that technology, working together, communicating with the network infrastructure, that work just finished, or there's multiple stages, but a critical stage just got completed last week. We were able to take that technology straight to the field in Waco, Texas, and start demonstrating and working with it live in our production network. >> So, do you get the dog out and he can hear his master's voice when you do that first phone call? >> Well... (laughs) You know... >> The old RCA. >> It's pretty close. >> I know, nobody knows what we're even talking about, right, too old. >> (chuckles) They don't, do they? >> So, the other thing that's really interesting about 5G compared to the other, prior roll-outs is really the focus on devices, and you're in charge of devices and devices is a lot more than just handsets, right? >> Yeah. >> This was really designed for the industrial internet and IoT, and really a whole swath of device-to-device communication. How did that kind of change the way you look at your job? >> Yeah, so you know, we've been working on IoT and modules in the IoT space, but with 5G you start to enable lots of new capabilities with very high bandwidth, low latent applications, which allows us to revolutionize various vertical industries, and so now it's no longer just about the smartphone or the tablet, but it's about anything and everything that you can imagine-- >> Right. >> And so, you know, I tell people all the time, you know, when we first start talking about technology we really think about some cool things, but the reality is we barely touch the surface, and so you know, people will just begin to imagine the capabilities that 5G will unleash and you'll start to put, you know, the capabilities into everything from a refrigerator to robot arms on a manufacturing floor and all kinds of points in between. >> Right, you know it's funny, we go to a lot of tech conferences, and we were just at VMworld a couple weeks ago and you know, Michael Dell said on air that, you know, the edge will actually be bigger than the cloud, and right, it's been all about cloud for the last several years. >> Yeah. >> Now it's all about edge. Well, the key to edge is connectivity, and that's a really important piece of the 5G story. >> Absolutely, if you take your compute power and you push it further to the edge you've got to then connect, and so you can put very low-cost, low horsepower components on the edge, connect them, you know, so in a device, connect them to the edge and come up with some pretty powerful capabilities. >> Yeah, and the other interesting thing from your guys' point of view, having dealt with handsets for so long, is just the whole low power, and a lot of the edge type applications are going to be in remote areas, difficult to get to areas, difficult to plumb areas, so the whole experience with low power combined with the low latency is really a big game changer. >> That's absolutely correct, so when you take low power you can put battery devices that last years-- >> Right. >> And have them in remote locations, sensors, et cetera, and have them connect in a low-latent, high-bandwidth way to deliver, you know, anything that you can imagine. >> Right, so it feels to me that there's really not the buzz around 5G that there should be, and I don't know because we've kind of heard about it for a while and it's kind of been in extended development or people just aren't paying attention, but what's interesting, a lot of conversations in the keynotes talking about experiences. >> Mm-hm. >> Really changing the way you can think about developing applications for experiences based on this technology. We saw the NVIDIA demo where they're running NVIDIA processors in their cloud and sending it to a laptop here, where before you'd have to spend thousands of dollars on a local machine. As you look back, what are some of the things that you've seen, either in testing or conversations, that maybe people just don't have any perception of how this is going to change some of their day-to-day activities? >> So, I don't think people, you know, unfortunately we've become immune. The devices, right, the processing power that we put in devices that people carry in their pocket, they keep going up and up. The reality is at some point you've got to flatten that to... From a consumer perspective you've got to flatten that to have a device that people can afford. >> Right. >> And so, with 5G and you start putting things to the edge you start taking away some of the processing power that physically is in the phone and you put that at the edge, to where now people can have really high speed, high capabilities in a relatively low-cost device. >> That's pretty interesting, you're the first person. So, it is really this redistribution of, you know, networking, compute, and store-- >> Mm-hm. >> That's now enabled with this fast networking, where before your options were really not so great. >> Yeah, it's always a balance, but today your only option is to continue to put more and more horsepower into the device itself-- >> Right. >> More processing, compute storage, into the device. By spreading that and having some of it maintained in the network you can maintain, you can manage cost in the end user device that people carry in their pocket. >> Okay, so give you the last word, when you are at a cocktail party on the weekend talking to some people about what you do, what surprises people most about 5G once you tell them it's this new thing that's coming down the pike? >> Well, you know, look, in my job I get to see lots of cool things, and when I start describing some virtual or augmented reality, imagine walking down the street with a pair of glasses and suddenly images, right, start, you know, being fed on top of what you're really looking at. You start, you know, you can imagine a day where, you know, an advertisement may pop up in your field of view, or you know, points of interest that you might want to see, and you know, obviously we've got to control that and manage it to consumer expectations, but that's not as far away as people might imagine. >> Right, and just to recap, you're in 12 markets. >> 12 markets-- >> You're in seven, five more, and then another seven coming, right? >> That's right, so 12 by the end of '18, and seven more in early '19. We're off to a fast start and looking to grow from there. >> All right, Gordon, well congratulations on progress to date and good luck with the roll-out. >> All right, thank you. >> (chuckles) All right, he's Gordon, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at AT&T Spark in San Francisco, thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> From the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering AT&T Spark. Now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at San Francisco, at the historic Palace of Fine Arts, it's a beautiful spot, it's redone, they moved Exploratorium out a couple years ago, so now it's in a really nice event space, and we're here for the AT&T Spark Event, and the conversation's all around 5G. But we're excited to have our first guest, and he's working on something that's a little bit tangential to 5G-related, but not absolutely connected, but really important work, it's Chris Sambar, he is the SVP of FirstNet at AT&T, Chris, great to see you. >> Thanks Jeff, great to be here, I appreciate it. >> Yeah, so you had a nice Keynote Presentation, talking about FirstNet. So for people I've missed, that aren't familiar, what is AT&T FirstNet? >> Sure, I'll give a quick background. As I was mentioning up there, tomorrow is the 17-year Anniversary of 9/11. So 17 years ago tomorrow, a big problem in New York City. Lots of first responders descended on the area. All of them were trying to communicate with each other, they were trying to use their radios, which they're you know, typically what you see a first responder using, the wireless networks in the area. Unfortunately challenges, it wasn't working. They were having trouble communicating with each other, their existing wireless networks were getting congested, and so the 9/11 Commission came out with a report years later, and they said we need a dedicated communications network, just for First Responders. So they spun all this up and they said, we're going to dedicate some Spectrum, 20 megahertz of D-Class Spectrum, which is really prime Spectrum. Seven billion dollars and we're going to set up this Federal entity, called the FirstNet Authority, and they're going to create a Public Safety Network across America. So FirstNet Authority spent a few years figuring out how to do it, and they landed on what we have today, which was a Public/Private Partnership, between AT&T, and Public Safety throughout America, and we're building them a terrific network across the country. It is literally a separate network so when I, I think of wireless in America, I think of four main commercial carriers, AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint. This is the 5th carrier, this is Public Safety's Wireless Network just for them. >> So when you say an extra network, so it's a completely separate, obviously you're leveraging infrastructure, like towers and power and those types of things. But it's a completely separate network, than the existing four that you mentioned. >> Yeah, so if you walk into our data centers throughout the country, you're going to see separate hardware, physical infrastructure that is just for FirstNet, that's the core network just for this network. On the RAN, the Radio Access Network, we've got antennas that have Band 14 on them, that's Public Safety's Band, dedicated just for them when they need it. So yeah, it's literally a physically separate network. The SIM card that goes into a FirstNet device, is a different SIM card than our commercial users would use, because it's separate. >> So one of the really interesting things about 5G, and kind of the evolution of wireless is, is taking some of the load that has been taken by like WiFi, and other options for fast, always on connectivity. I would assume radio, and I don't know that much about radio frequencies that have been around forever with communications in, in First Responders. Is the vision that the 5G will eventually take over that type of communication as well? >> Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the evolution of First Responder, and Public Safety Communications, for many years now they've used radios. Relatively small, narrow Spectrum bands for Narrow Band Voice, right, just voice communications. It really doesn't do data, maybe a little bit, but really not much. Now they're going to expand to this Spectrum, the D-Class, the D-Block Spectrum, excuse me, which is 700 megahertz, it's a low-band Spectrum, that'll provide them with Dedicated Spectrum, and then the next step, as you say, is 5G, so take the load off as Public Safety comes into the, the new Public Safety Communications space, that they've really been wanting for years and years, they'll start to utilize 5G as well on our network. >> So where are you on the development of FirstNet, where are you on the rollout, what's the sequence of events? >> The first thing we did, the award was last year in March 2017. The first thing we did was we built out the core network. When I talked about all that physical infrastructure, that basically took a year to build out, and it was pretty extensive, and about a half a billion dollars so, that was the first thing we did, that completed earlier this year. >> Was that nationwide or major metro cities or how-- >> Nationwide, everywhere in the country. >> Nationwide, okay. >> So now what we're doing is, we are putting the Spectrum that we were given, or I should say we were leased for 25 years, we're putting that Spectrum up across our towers all over the country so, that will take five years, it's a five-year build-out, tens of thousands of towers across America, will get this Public Safety Spectrum, for Public Safety, and for their use. >> Right. Will you target by GEO, by Metro area, I mean, how's it going to actually happen? That's a huge global rollout, five years is a long time. How you kind of prioritize, how are you really going to market with this? >> The Band 14 Spectrum is being rolled out in the major, the major dense areas across the country. I will tell you that by the end of the rollout, five years from now, 99% of the population of America, will have Band 14 Spectrum, so the vast majority of the population. Other areas where we don't roll it out, rural areas for example, all of the features that Public Safety wants, we call them (mumbles) and priority, which is the features to allow them to always have access to the network whenever they need it. Those features will be on our regular commercial Spectrum. So if Band 14 isn't there, the network will function exactly as if it were there for them. >> Right. Then how do you roll it out to the agencies, all the First Responders, the Fire, the Police, the EMTs, et cetera? How do they start to take advantage of this opportunity? >> Sure, so we started that earlier this year. We really started in a March-April timeframe in earnest, signing up agencies, and the uptake's been phenomenal. It's over 2500 Public Safety Agencies across America, over 150,00, and that number grows by thousands every week. That's actually a pretty old number but, they are signing up in droves. In fact, one of the problems we were having initially is, handling the volume of First Responders that wanted to sign up, and the reason is they're seeing that, whether it's a fire out in Oregon, and they need connectivity in the middle of nowhere, in a forest where there's no wireless connectivity at all, we'll bring a vehicle out there, put up an antenna and provide them connectivity. Whether it's a Fourth of July show, or a parade, or an active shooter, wherever large groups of people, combined together and the network gets congested, they're seeing that wow, my device works no matter what. I can always send a text message, I can send a video, it just works. Where it didn't work before. So they love it, and they're really, they're really signing up in droves, it's great. >> It's really interesting because it's, it's interesting that this was triggered, as part of the post 9/11 activity to make things better, and make things safer. But there was a lot of buzz, especially out here in the West with, with First Responders in the news, who were running out of band width. As you said, the Firefighters, the fire's been burning out here, it seems like forever, and really nobody thinking about those, or obviously they're probably roaming on their traditional data plan, and they're probably out there, for weeks and weeks at a time, that wasn't part of their allocation, when they figured out what plan they should be. So the timing is pretty significant, and there's clearly a big demand for this. >> Absolutely. So that example that you sight is a really good one. Two weeks ago, there was a lot in the news about a fire agency in the West, that said they were throttled by their carrier. It was a commercial carrier, and commercial carriers have terms and conditions, that sometimes they need to throttle usage, if you get to a certain level. That's how commercial networks work. >> Right, right. >> FirstNet was built with not only different technology, hardware, software, but with different terms and conditions. Because we understand that, when a First Responder responds to your house, we don't want that to be the minute in time, when their network, their plan got maxed out, and now they're getting throttled. >> Right. >> So we don't have any throttling on the FirstNet Network. So it's not only the hardware, software, technical aspects of the network, but the terms and conditions are different. It's what you would expect that a First Responder would have and want on their device, and that's what we're providing for them. >> Right, and the other cool thing that you mentioned is, we see it all the time, we go to a lot of conferences. A lot of people probably experience it at, at big events right, is that still today, WiFi and traditional LTE, has hard times in super-dense environments, where there's just tons and tons and tons of bodies I imagine, absorbing all that signal, as much as anything else, so to have a separate Spectrum in those type of environments which are usually chaotic when you got First Responders, or some of these mass events that you outlined, is a pretty important feature, to not get just completely wiped out by everybody else happening to be there at the same time. >> Exactly. I'll give you two quick examples, that'll illustrate what you just said. The first one is, on the Fourth of July, in downtown Washington D.C. You can imagine that show. It's an awesome show, but there are hundreds of thousands of people that gather around that Washington Monument, to watch the show. And the expectation is at the peak of the show, when all those people are there, you're not really going to be sending text messages, or calling people, the network's probably just not going to work very well. That's, we've all gotten used to that. >> Right, right. >> This year, I had First Responders, who were there during the event, sending me videos of the fireworks going off. Something that never would've been possible before, and them saying oh my gosh. The actually works the way it's supposed to work, we can use our phones. Then the second example, which is a really sad example. There was a recent school shooting down in Florida. You had Sheriffs, Local Police, Ambulances. You even had some Federal Authorities that showed up. They couldn't communicate with each other, because they were on different radio networks. Imagine if they had that capability of FirstNet, where they could communicate with each other, and the network worked, even though there were thousands of people that were gathering around that scene, to see what was going on. So that's the capability we're bringing to Public Safety, and it's really good for all of us. >> Do you see that this is kind of the, the aggregator of the multi-disparate systems that exist now, as you mentioned in, in your Keynote, and again there's different agencies, they've got different frequencies, they've got Police, Fire, Ambulance, Federal Agencies, that now potentially this, as just kind of a unified First Responder network, becomes the defacto way, that I can get in touch with anyone regardless of of where they come from, or who they're associated with? >> That is exactly the vision of FirstNet. In major cities across America, Police, Fire, Emergency Medical typically, are on three different radio networks, and it's very difficult for them to communicate with each other. They may have a shared frequency or two between them, but it's very challenging for them. Our goal is to sign all of them up, put them on one LTE network, the FirstNet Network, customized for them, so they can all communicate with each other, regardless of how much congestion is on the network. So that's the vision of FirstNet. >> Then that's even before you get into the 5G impacts, which will be the data impacts, whereas I think again, you showed in some of your examples, the enhanced amount of data that they can bring to bear, on solving a problem, whether it's a layout of a building for the Fire Department or drone footage from up above. We talked to Menlo Park Fire, they're using drones more and more to give eyes over the fire to the guys down on the ground. So there's a lot of really interesting applications that you can get more better data, to drive more better applications through that network, to help these guys do their job. >> Yeah, you've got it, the smart city's cameras, don't you want that to be able to stream over the network, and give it to First Responders, so they know what they're going to encounter, when they show up to the scene of whatever issue's going on in the city, of course you do, and you need a really reliable, stable network to provide that on. >> Well Chris, this is not only an interesting work, but very noble, and an important work, so appreciate all of the efforts that you're putting in, and thanks for stopping by. >> I appreciate it Jeff, it's been great talking with you. >> Alright, he's Chris, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're in San Francisco at the Palace of Fine Arts, at AT&T Spark. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (bright music)