>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost. We are joined by Jeffrey Snuffer. He is a technical fellow, Oh three 65 intelligence substrate at Microsoft. Most famous for being the father of PowerShell and one of the key architects of the window server. Thank you so much for coming on, for returning to the show. Yeah, thanks. It's great to be back. So first of all, define your, you're relatively new to this role, so tell us a little bit about what you're doing and what is the intelligent substrate. >> Yes, so you know, a lot of people get this confused as intelligence substrate. There's all three 65 the Microsoft graph. And when I do, as I say, Hey, the best way to think about this as an analogy to an operating system, operating systems are complex, but at the end of the day, they're really, really simple. >>They only do three things. They manage and protect resources. They provide services for developers, right services, API APIs and common controls. And then they provide a base set of applications and a way to get additional applications. So windows manage, CPU, memory, the services when 32 API eyes and then the applications like the browser, et cetera. So all three 65 can really be viewed as an operating system. Sounds strange. Why? Because most operating systems have been operating systems for devices, an operating system for phone, an operating system for a PC and operating system for a server. This is an operating system for people and organizations. So when we think about those three responsibilities, resources and you know, protecting and managing resources, these are the resources for people in organizations. So it's their identity, their, their emails, their chats, their documents, services for developers. These where there's wind 32 for windows, we have ms graph, that's our public API, but then we have services to be able to create, collaborate and communicate documents and interactions. >>And then the applications are things like teams and outlook, et cetera. And so then, Oh, sorry. Then the substrate, the substrate, sort of at the core of it. That's one of our core services. It is storage and then a set of services to manage that and set of services. So the storage is basically a planetary scale, no sequel data store. So every time you create a chat and email document or whatever, it gets stored in the substrate and then three additional copies are created, one of them at least 250 miles away. That's why our date availability and high availability are one thing. So everything gets stored there and then that allows us to do common services like search against it. Does that make sense, >>Jeffrey? Well, one of the biggest challenge people have is when you learn about something and then it has changed an awful lot. Yeah. I think back to the first time I used Microsoft word, Microsoft Excel, it wasn't connected to the internet exactly. Let alone talking about the era of global scale in AI and all of these things that can do in. So maybe give us a fresh as if I'm a brand new person and I, you know, I don't have the, you know, all of the legacy history with the Microsoft office family. What, what is the new, you know, people O us that you're talking about? >>Yeah. So I like to think of it as a back to the original office 1.0, if you remember the original office 1.0, you'd had word, Excel and PowerPoint. And I like to joke, I say it was integrated with the advanced technology at that day of called cardboard, right? We just took the, the, the floppy disks from each one of those products, put it in a cardboard box and said it's a suite. But then it was a vision to a vision of how things should work together to help the individual. And then after that version one, then we reorganized the organization to have common technology teams. And that's when we started to get common controls, common user experience, et cetera, common file formats. Uh, and then it became a true integrated suite. Same thing happened when we went to the cloud. We had all these products that would have a front end couple to a back end, another front end, couple to a back end, another front end coupled a backend. >>Each one would have one or more SDKs, et cetera. And when we first brought them to the cloud, it was the same sort of thing, integrate it with an offering and a name. But there was a vision there. And then that vision drove the reality. And what we did was we said, Hey, let's figure out how to have a common storage for these things. Common backend, a common way to communicate, a common way to do messaging. And then that took a number of years. But that's what drives this consistency. And so that's why when you go and you say, I would like to search for something, you'll find that term, whether it's in your word documents or it's in your emails or your team chats or anything. It's that commonality that makes it answered question. It >>does. Um, so it's, I think about, you know, the era of collaboration and, you know, there were competitors to Microsoft that came out that were built on the internet and you know, deliver those solutions. So this week we've talked to, we haven't dug deep deep into teams, but everyone we've talked to that's using it, it's like, no, really this is a really great product and almost like, you know, forget about some of the things you might have remembered through some of those iterations and changes and things not working together. You know, teams has been built and is allowing some great collaboration, communication with remote workers, smaller businesses, the likes. So it's tough because especially if you're using one tool and you've gone over to some other tool set, it's like, Oh, I don't, why would I go back to that? But it's a very different, uh, Microsoft productivity suite today than, than we might have used in the past. >>That's exactly correct. And then the, into the, uh, uh, intelligent substrate is this layer of AI on top of the substrate, right? So part of that is search, but then we're also doing natural language processing. So basically imagine you saw a store of file in in a one drive that gets stored in one drive and a workflow gets kicked off and that workflow then goes and analyzes the contents of that file and create search terms, et cetera. So we then have common search and then we've got natural language processing that'll go and find, Hey, what are the key points for that document? How do I summarize that document? So then if you see it somewhere you can say, Oh, show me the file card. And I'll say, here's this document. You don't have to read the whole thing. Here are the three key points about it. >>And so the, this is, so to answer the question, why would a, why would a platform guy be working in office? It turns out that to build this AI infrastructure, it's really sort of a platform play. There's key advances that need to be made in, in AI. But actually when you get involved in AI, what you realize is what we really need is more engineering than more science. We need more science, no doubt about it. But boy, is there a need for engineering? Like I need to figure out how to get three to five to seven orders of magnitude more volume of AI going through the system. So when you talk about these key advances in AI that need to be made in terms of of applying them to O three 65 describe them for us and talk about how they will change the future of work and the way we collaborate with our team members in the way we communicate with our team members and, and in our productivity. >>Yeah. So this is where I get so excited about Microsoft's play, right? Because when I decided at the end of last year that I was gonna make a new change, I had a number of opportunities both inside and outside the company. And so the, the thing that really made me say, this is where I want to go was, well, one, it was most important new technology, AI on our most precious business asset, our customers data. So that was very exciting for really got me over the edge was Microsoft's approach to AI. Microsoft takes a very different approach to AI than our competitors, right? The heart of most AI is trying to figure out you and you to achieve some result. Now our competitors do that to try and get you to click a button to buy an ad or to buy something you don't need or subvert some government that they want subverted, right? >>That's none of our peg objectives. We want to understand you for exactly one reason to make you successful, right? How do we, like in the past, people would throw the rock at Microsoft, say, Oh, you know, when I use Microsoft products, I got to understand the Microsoft org chart. You know, you ship my org chart. What they're really saying is that they have to understand the tools to get their job done. They have to navigate the tools. What we're trying to do is have the tools understand the person to help the person, help that person get their job done. So there's this great show, I think it was called the remains of day today, the movie with Anthony Hopkins, he played a Butler. And in that he did some research and he talked to the Butler of Buckingham palace who'd been there for 50 years and he said the essence of a great Butler is that he makes the room emptier when he enters. >>What's that mean? Well, when the, when someone sits down the magazine that they want, is there, the drink that they want is there. It just, it just all works out. Well, that's not my experience with computers today. I mean, how many times do you, you know, you end up at the end of the day and you're like, your spouse says, what'd you do to you day? You're like, wow, I dunno. I dunno. I'm just exhausted. Well, it shouldn't, doesn't have to be that way. What we want to do is to have the computer understand you, understand your objectives and not have some big splashy AI. It just, Oh, things just work. Oh, I'm coming to this meeting. Oh, the information I need for that meeting is just there. Oh, it prepped me and knew that I had a few minutes. And so it gave me a few minutes where it's a prep and things just flow. And at the end of the, you know, success will be when you end the day with more energy than you start it. Like that's a big tall tale, a big tall effort. But that's where we're going for that. Get stalled. >>Yeah. Well we, we found that the, the word that has summarized this week for us is one that Satya said over and over again and it was trust. So in today's day and age, there's a lot of cynicism and especially looking at big tech companies, you did a presentation talking about AI in social responsibility. You tease out a little bit of it there as to why you believe Microsoft is well intentioned with AI, but maybe share a little bit more about that vision for social responsibility and you know, where we need to go with AI as an industry as a whole. >>Yeah, exactly. So there's kinda two key points. First is I think there's a, a very vast, uh, misunderstanding of the state of AI Kang. It really is best understood as software 2.0 and we've been at software 1.0 for about 75 years and I don't think anybody thinks we're doing a particularly great job at event. I think we've started to make progress starting around the 1990s with the, with the core principles of, of uh, the worldwide web. That's when we started to really make some progress. But we still have lots of world's problems. So we're at software 2.0 we're at the very beginning of the beginning of the beginning. Now here's the point. The innovators set the field, the innovators set the path. And in AI it's important for Microsoft to be one of the key innovators here because of our approach, because we're standing up and saying, wait, there's great promise. >>There's great challenges, right? There are privacy challenges. There's data bias challenges, there's inclusivity challenges. There are things that really need to be addressed by governments, local legislation and global governments. Brad Smith has been particularly vocal on this and the need for a digital, the only way you're going to solve the problem of autonomous killer robots, which is a real thing, is by a digital Geneva convention. We, Microsoft can't solve that. IBM can solve that. Google can't solve that. Governments need to solve that. And so Microsoft is being very proactive in engaging the communities around these problems. For myself, for instance, I've been working with some of the security researchers to say, okay, well, software 2.0 how do you do threat model on machine learning? Nobody knows. Like literally nobody knows. And so we've been working over the course of the last year to produce a taxonomy of attacks. Now this is the initial thing, but it sparks a conversation as we've shown it to various government people and other, uh, competitors. Uh, they're very excited about this, about trying to join this in, to identify the class of attacks. Because once you can understand the class of attacks, then you begin understanding, well, how do I defend against those? But literally it doesn't exist. So, >>so talking about autonomous killer robots, I'm very worried now. So how do you, Jeffrey said you're talking about Microsoft's more measured approach and as you said, you are working with governments and work in reaching out to policy makers and regulators to talk about these things. Maybe unlike some other technology companies that aren't doing that. How do, are you a tech optimist at the end of the day or are you, but does it keep you up at night these, these, Nope. Nope, >>not at all. Not at all. No. I'm a wild Technomic dumbest people like are very pessimistic and I just like, yeah. You know, no. Like, let me give you an example, right? There's this, this thing that says, Oh, an autonomous car turns the corner at a high speed and it has to decide between killing two old man and a and a woman in a baby carriage. Right? And it's wide. This is a Philip philosophic philosophy problem called the trolley problem. Oh, a trolley driver has to pull a switch a, uh, and it was like over a hundred years old in the a hundred plus years that that's upon posited, there's been exactly zero trolley drivers ever put in this position. Just, it's just not an issue. Look, there are real issues. We do have to work these things. I'd say the biggest worry is not these killer robots or the autonomous cars going wild. >>It is complacency. It is overconfidence. It says, Oh, I got something to work. Let's just ship it. Like there's a lot of brittleness in these AI systems, right? Like, Oh, this works and it can be spectacular, but then this is a complete disaster and that's a complete disaster. So how do we get that taxonomy of like, Hey, when do we know when we're done? How do we test these things? How do I have like a, a secure supply chain for the data models as well as the code itself? You know, so. So I think that software one no doubt does not provide us any of the answers to the challenges of software 2.0 but I do believe that software 1.0 and its challenges tell us the areas that we need to apply our, our mindset to. And that's what we're doing. So >>Jeffrey, before we let you go, we do need to get the update on PowerShell. I have to say, ever since I've first talked to you, I feel like more and more when I go to shows, I hear people just talking about how it's helping their career, helping their business and in doing it, I don't know if it's just because you know, it was brought to the front of the mind and it's like, Oh no, I'm used to seeing that car model out there. But can you give us the latest on power shell even though you're no longer in that group? Oh yeah. I continue to meet with them all the time. >>I'm very active in PowerShell. So we took power shell and made a cross platform to run analytics. We've talked about that and I don't know where we were when we talked about that, but basically we sort of did it for our own purposes, right? We need to manage the world's estate and so we want to have a common infrastructure for doing that. And the joke was that the point is like, look, we're not confused. We don't think that the Unix people are going to greet us as liberator's. Like all, thank heavens, you know, I've been dying under this bash and such. Thank God Microsoft came to save us, right? There's no confusion. We'll surprise. We shifted and then the vast majority, the numbers are crazy. How many Linux people are using PowerShell. It's just insane and we don't really understand it. We're out there talking to people, but they just love it. >>So anyway, so PowerShell version seven is coming out. It'll come out officially at the end of the year, beginning of next year, and this really is the tool that then you can use to manage everything. Both windows and Linux. We have parallel for each, so you can do massive scale. But that's the one that really just brings all the pieces together and gains the critical mass. So we're very excited about it. always a scintillating conversation when you come on the show. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite.

>> from Austin, Texas. It's Theo Cube, covering your storage. Accelerate 2019. Brought to you by pure storage. >> Welcome back to the Q B. All the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Lisa Martin with David Dante. Couple of gents back on the Cube we have on Stuart the VP of technology for pure von. Welcome back. >> It's great to be here. Thanks for being accelerate. >> Were accepted severe. And we've got Carrie Stanton, VP of Global Biz Dev and corporate development from Theme Carrie, Welcome back. Thank you very much. I'm in the rain. I love the love it planned. Of course. Thank you. Very good branding here. Lots going on with theme and pure. Let's secure. Let's go ahead and start with you. Talk to us about the nature of the V Impure partnership. I'm assuming better together, but give us the breakdown. Sure, >> we've had a relationship for many years, but over the past three years we've seen it. You know, this year, counting this year, like the scale out is just unbelievable. We're growing at triple digits on our Cosell winds in the field, all of its writing, all of the predominantly being driven from the flash blade success that we've had in the marketplace, Our customers are buying into the performance that they have. Our our relationship is growing through joint innovation and joint development. And so what we've seen is raising them to a global partner, on having dedicated resources on it, as only amplified our success. We have. So yeah, it's fantastic. >> And then one from your perspective, what are some of the things that you are hearing? Are you guys being brought in? Maur from team customers is being being brought in more from pure side. What's that mixed like >> we've had? We've had a strong set of channel partners that I think promoting our joint solution on our products kind of a top of their line card. Of course, there's always the customer requested to get pulled in, and I think customers who have experienced either one of our products look at their satisfaction. They look extremely it, like NPS scores right and say, you know, if I'm a pure customer, there's a data protection company. That's gotta nps very similar years, you know, tell us more about what you're doing with with theme. If you look at kind of our common ethos. Right simplicity in the model right co innovation Help Dr Scale. Whether it's been through joint A P I integration with the universal adaptor or tryingto lean into next generation architectures like Flash to flash the cloud. It's just been a very easy progressive partnership to drive and bring in a market. >> Talk more about that joint development. Um, there's a start in the field. No engineering resource is I'd love to Have you had some color to that? >> I think I think I think it's >> a combination of. So we'll start with a universal adapter that was beams initiative to help add scale to the back of process to as you're putting virtue machines into backup mode along, you know, leverage these the storage controller snapshots so that you could come in and out of that back about very quick. V, invisible to production operations, offload a bunch of data processing and in time, out of the equation that just helps scale right back up, more virtual machines faster. That's a program that they initiated that we were one of the founding partners on one of the first partners to publish ah Universal adaptor, or R A p i for it. The >> results have been The results are pure is by far the number one partner for downloads for a customer downloads that we have across our partner Rico system. So we have a vote 15 partner Rico Systems that have written to the universal FBI on. So just last week, you know, over 3000 downloads surpassed over 3000 downloads. Here is 6500 customers. I'll let you do the math. All right, so it's it's great that we see such strong adoption from their customer base. Almost 50% of their customers are team customers on. Then that >> contusion. That's hi, >> It's very high. >> Wow. So give me your favorite customer example that really articulates the value that pure brings the value that being brings. >> We've got a lot going on in the financial space in the healthcare space. >> Butler Health is a joint customer that we have a customer reference win that they've published in that we've published on dhe obviously many, many more, but especially in the people, customers in the financial health care that are looking for performance on Dhe. Looking to that flash blade, a za landing zone that's going to give them more than just a backup target. It's going to give them the ability to leverage it for a I and ML and many other factors, which is again, one of the reasons why we've seen such strong adoption. >> You talk about health care, we're talking about patient data, lives at stake. Give me some of the meat about what this customer, for example, is achieving at the business. Subtle and the human lives level >> Well, I think what they're seeing is of what they were used. It's not so much the exact stats that I could give you down to how money they're getting per second, but it's what they were using before, which is one of the legacy competitors that we have, which we call. You know, some of these donors that they give to market share that we take away day in and day out with without saying names. But there was a reform replace that we came in and taking a second generation solution from a legacy hardware appliance that was being used previously in a secondary storage. >> Yeah, allow me to elaborate a bit, right? So you asked about the technology we kind of talked about the universal adapter for the off load where we've really seen growth has been in this notion of flash to flash the cloud and peers introduced this notion of rapid restore. So again, how do we grow our businesses together? Growing amore mission critical or patient? Critical deployments has been this notion of not just backing up the data faster. That's kind >> of the the >> daily repetitive task that no organization wants to to deal with. Where the rubber meets the road is Can you put the data back? And we've seen this explosion in the increase of of the capacity of data, set sizes and the pressure they put on restoring that data. When you happen to have, ah, harbor failure, a data center go off line or a power issue and this goes so you go back to patient records gotta be online when everything fails and there's an issue with a chair, whatever. Maybe how quickly can we get the data? And we're orders of magnitude faster, then the legacy >> platform. So having an integrated appliance is part of that key and co engineering. Is that right? I mean, you guys pure software no pun intended, right? You don't want to be >> No, no, it sze taking the they wrote to our a p I right So the work that they did on the FBI and then continue to innovate and iterated against it right and coming out with the next version that they just come out with it is, is just differentiating themselves in the marketplace. And that's really what we're seeing. And we're seeing that success that the enterprise today, from what we have without even looking forward to our upcoming V 10 which is gonna have some high end enterprise feature sets. >> And we want to get into that. But something that mom that you were just saying It's almost as if data protection is no longer just an insurance policy. It's an asset. We have to be able to get it back. >> Absolutely fuel, We believe if you look at the legacy backup appliances, they were designed and optimized for short backup windows and are proving to be a challenge at restoring the data, which is actually where the value in the architecture is. We've talked about rapid restore in bringing, flashing that space. We worked with team engineering on V 10 actually double that performance so that customers, as they upgrade their code line, can again bring those mission critical workloads back online even faster than in the past. In addition to that, we've worked through some of the VM integrations for customs who want to mind that data who want to clone those workloads and bring them up on online and ADM or analytics or searching the metadata of that data. So there's a lot going on besides just your backup and recovery. >> So you guys are saying, Chuck, the appliance don't need the appliance. You've got a better model. Is that what I'm hearing? Or >> we win against appliances day in and day out? So absolutely software. Best of breed software. Best of breed storage hardware. >> What should we expect for V 10 adoption there? You guys announced in the spring? >> Yes, and it will shift in Q four. Dave, honestly, this is gonna be Anton is gonna shit >> a good track record. They're gonna go out there. >> No, but we have some key features that will differentiate us in the marketplace, especially as we go to the enterprise with pier storage, such as immune ability right, So that's a feature that we've talked about. You know, we've been hyping because we believe in it that what it's gonna bring for the protection of ransom, where malware and it's it's gonna be a game changer. We believe in the marketplace and our famous now, as they were finally gonna support now support for their enterprise customer base. So, I mean, those two keep features in and of itself. So again, I talked about the scale that we're having today in the marketplace without these key enterprise features and then having those chip, you know, in the next 90 days are again we believe just gonna continue to elevate our business. >> We're talking to Charlie earlier today about just a CZ. Part of his job is tam expansion and data protection is an obvious area for that. You could have chosen to go buy a small software company, certainly have the cash on your balance sheet and compete. We have chosen to partner talk about the opportunity that you guys jointly see in terms of the market you can penetrate. >> I think it is such a Our ecosystem is so comprised today of partnerships that are based on. On one hand, you're partnering, and on the other hand, you're competing that it is. It is really refreshing to find a partnership like Veen, where we've got very clear lines of what our product offerings are, where they come together and no competitive obstacles. It makes partying in the field the easiest, right? We've got great partnerships across the board somewhere. Appliance vendors. Sometimes those partnerships work fast. Sometimes they running hurdles. We never run into a hurdle together, so it's worked very well. I think our partners, our channel partners, have preferences around the server side that they like to go to market with. We give them the freedom together to pick and choose. So they put invested class software with best class storage to to meet the needs. They put the rest together based on what fits their business model or their current agreements go forward. So >> clear, clear swim lanes, Big market. You guys showed some data at V Mon. I want to say Danny's data, maybe $15 billion Tim man larger. You guys get a piece of that, you get a piece of that >> on a savant said. It's just there's no there's no friction in the marketplace is going out and doing the work we need to do to win. But we never get it that Oh, we can introduce this because it's gonna compete with, even if it's only 2% of what they have, there's there's looting. No, they do not have data protection. And we don't do as, you know. We don't do hardware in storage. So again invested breeds. And I >> think those numbers maybe even conservative because, you know, as you were pointing out, the traditional backup products were designed to deal with the biggest problem, which was back up window, which, by the way, 60% of times the backup didn't work anyway. But you have to get inside of, you know, Yeah, we backed it up check. But backup is One thing is my friend Fred Morris. Recovery is everything. So things are shifting in a digital business recovery. You know, it is tantamount. You know, ever you can't ever not be without your data. So it's an imperative. Yeah, >> it's, um, when you're and the flashlight business unit first came up with the construct of a rapid restore. I mean, admittedly, I was sitting in the corner. I'm just saying there's no way. There's no way that a customer would look to pay a premium for Flash for their backup. And then you meet the customers and it's just one after the other. And there's these stories around. We had to stop production. We couldn't get the AARP back online. Right Way couldn't take transactions because the processing database of the purchasing database was off line and you're just sitting there going. These are really world right issues that impact revenue for organizations. And so we are going through an evolution about rethinking around data protection and what it means into in today's day and age. >> It's security. Such top of mind carry today on the CEO's mind and data protection is part of that. Backup is a key part of that. You think about Ransomware, right? You guys get solutions there. I mean, it all fits together. It's not these sort of bespoke, you know, ideas anymore. It's really one big mosaic so that people can drive their digital transformations. I mean, that's really what they care about. >> I think the themes, old slogan, it just works right. It continues to evolve and that you talked about backup not working in the first place, right? So we have our core fundamental foundations. That theme has right is that it will trust that the customer will know that it will be online. We have the shortest r p o r t o is right in the marketplace, and then you take that and the's enterprise class features again. That's why marrying it with Piers route to market and there go to market strategy is having the success we're having in the marketplace. >> You're hearing a lot from customers. Flash Flash MacLeod. This is There is a very strong need for this. Some of the things that were announced today terms up some more firsts that piers delivering to the market. What are some of the things that you guys were? You maybe Carrie. We'll start with you from themes partnership perspective like a flash Teresi, for example, or starting to be able to deliver. I saw Blake smiles, uh, be ableto bring the cost down so that customers could look at putting a spectrum of workloads, even backups on flash. What is themes? Reaction? Well, smiles. I tend to >> do with Lisa, but I mean, to be honest with you. We sit back and love everything that piers doing from innovation. And so if they're going to come out with a broader set of target solutions for secondary storage, then we're going to be there partner there as we are with flashlights. So we're sitting back and loving the innovation that they're bringing to the market place and to their customers. >> I saw that Cheshire cat grin von >> s o for the audience who may be missed. We had a number of product announcements this morning taking the flash ray from a single product line into a portfolio going to that two year zero workload with the direct memory cache acceleration powered by Intel's often products as we go into a chair to economic space but still keeping all the Tier one features and availability we not flash or a C, which is leveraging QSC is a storage medium. Uh, while we have a design, do expand our tam and find new workloads. We have not looked at backup for the flash rate. See, at this point the flash, the flash, the cloud powered by the data hub in the rapid restore is going strong, so you want to kind of keep the team focused on that? And we've got other markets that we have yet to penetrate that have been more price sensitive where we think the flash racy is a better alignment. Now again, maybe over time I'll be found wrong and we'll change our tune. But you know, I'll give an example. Go back to Ransomware. Ransomware is a top three question in terms of any storage conversation. When you deal with a financial institution today to the point where not only are they asking about, what are you doing in your products? What are you doing across your partner ecosystem? Some of the modern proof of concepts required it to go through a ransomware recovery procedure because you know these financial institutions, they're worried about getting not just locked out, but locked out on your H a sight because you just replicated the ransomware over. So this this ability have immutable, immutable image to bill to bring it back online fast a rapid restored somewhere. You could see what these technologies start to line up in a comprehensive solution for the customers, and so flash racy is great. It has nowhere. The band with a flash blade. So we're gonna try to keep those a separate products in different markets at the time. But at least for time being, >> thanks for clarifying >> that cloud. I gotta ask the quad cloud question. It's interesting you guys have both embraced. Cloud is you're seeing it. In the old days, I was saying, I think I'm saying Charlie again. Executives were like, No, don't do that. It's gonna kill us. But now it's okay. It's not a zero sum game. That trend is your friend. You gotta embrace it. How are you making cloud each of you a tailwind versus the You know what all the analysts expect ahead, What else gets going? Zero sum game is going to steal from a to B. >> Well, I mean, Dave, you can imagine from my vantage point, it's easy to say that we're looking at Cloud is just, you know, expanding the TAM, expanding the ecosystem features we have today at the archive here. The success we're having with both Microsoft Azure and eight of us are phenomenal. Growing 40% month over month, right, the adoption with all the new innovations that Danny and Antonio have talked on the show that were coming out with envy. 10 are only gonna amplify that. But it all starts back with our partners ships today that we have one private clouds and as customers are looking to evolve to the cloud So we work with our partners like peer to ensure that we're working with them today. And as customers want to embrace the cloud they can. But predominantly, those primary workloads are still remaining on Prem and they're looking on how they're going to support the cloud. And we're doing that today and we'll be doing that. Maura's we go forward >> block storage announcement you guys made today was quite interesting way now spinning up East End shoes and s threes And what >> So this morning we announced general availability for pure Claude Block store on AWS and plans, as we are currently in beta and development for other clouds. But the folks today is this AWS and you pair Claude Block store, which is basically the software of a flash ray architect for the hardware inside of a W s so that you have the same functionality and service that you have on Prem and you pair that with pure is a service, which is our op X moderate could pay as you consume and the flexibility of sign a 12 month contracts. You want 90% on Prem today in 10% of cloud two months from now, you want it 50 50 like used the utility model to consume wherever you want, so you can meet the requirements of your infrastructure, whether it's on Prem in the cloud or some hybrid combination. >> But the interesting thing to me was your doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the customers with regard to the architecture. What you architect in the club that I wonder. Is there an opportunity to do something like that with backup? Or is that just, you know, not economical, deep, deep archive, things like that? I mean, >> I'm pretty sure we're told not to make any news right now because >> stay tuned. I've already said >> too much, so I'm probably a >> good thing. We're live >> in big trouble. >> Wow, guys. So the 1st 10 years of pure, tremendous amount of innovation is, Charlie said, an overnight success in 10 years, so much more coming down. We've already heard about a tremendous amount of innovation and evolution today. So we can't wait to have you guys back on to the next event in here. Get our neck braces on for the whiplash of news that's gonna be coming at us. All right. We are like your day Volante. I'm Lester Martin. Go pats. >> You're sorry. And Bruce. Carrie and I were crazy >> sports fans. Let's just be very PC. Go, everybody. Everybody gets participation. Trophies just coming anyway. You're watching the Cube. Lisa Martin for day, Volante. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Live from Orlando Florida. It's the Cube. Covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to Cisco NetApp and the Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Cube's Live coverage here in Orlando Florida for Cisco Live 2018. It's the Cube's coverage. >> I'm John Furrier. The host. Here for three days of wall-to wall-coverage. Our next guest is Shubha Govil. Whose the director of product management for Cisco DevNet. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. Thanks for having me on Cube. >> Great conversation before the cameras came out. We're talking about development and Cloud Native. But we're super impressed with the work you guys have done at DevNet. Certainly it's the top story of the show here is that Cisco has now crossed over the flywheel of innovation where 500,000 registered developers. >> Developers. Not visitors to a website. >> Yes. Or some marketing program. >> Correct. >> Real engaging developers. >> Absolutely. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you John. Thank you. >> A couple of years. Four years and you're here. You've got DevNet. And DevNet Create. Which we've been covering extensively as well. >> Yes. >> Which is the Cloud Native world coming together. >> Yes. >> This is for the first time in Cisco's history where you have now a clear line of sight for network engineers network developers network experts who have been certified in the CCIE and other certifications. CCNA, CCNP. All the stuff you guys do. You can now see a clear line where you can extend the capabilities and knowledge and expertise in power of networking. >> Absolutely. >> Up the stack. >> Absolutely. >> Finally Cisco's moving up the stack. >> Yes. >> Tell us what's going on in the product side? >> Yeah Absolutely. And I'm gonna talk about very specific example today. And today if you heard the keynote speak. And Susie opened up a few things and announcement. One of them was DNA developer center. And I'm gonna talk about that. Because part of it is how network is an open platform now. And that was part of the announcement. You will hear a lot about that. And linking it back to Dev reports. Quite right. They should care about why they should look into it. So three things I'm gonna talk about. DNA, developer center and what they can find there. And once they go there and they really start learning about our platform on API's on DevNet. What cord exchange does for them. And how they can start not only programming the Intent based on our Intent API's and what they want network to do for them but also sharing some community cord. Are using that community cord. Community Cord if they are just getting started. Right? So on DNA Developers Center we have four capabilities highlighted. These are the API's. Whether they are Intent API's Integration API's to connect with other third parties. Or SDK's to manage multi-party devices. Or there for ITSM or a specific use case integrations. >> So hold up. Go slow. >> I'm kind of not on the uptake as you are on this. Because you're in it. IF DNA is a set of abstractions API's on top of the equipment. >> Correct. >> So it's not natively. It's a set of API. >> Set of API's. >> So that people could use those API's to create services. >> To manage their network wealth. To automate and drive these right use cases. So I might. >> Give me an example. >> Yeah let's talk about an example. Intent. My intent might be to. We were talking about radio conferences awhile back. And I come from that environment. I want to drive a Butler QS for certain level of execs. Right? If they are on the call this was the thing of like eight ten years back. If my execs are on a call make sure they have the best experience. So the QS quality of your network should be set up to a level that there's no disruption. There's no latency in the call. Right? So that's an intent. That's a business intent. Give best experience to my execs. >> So really that's combining policy and QOS together to make it meet the outcome. Which is no latency. >> To meet the outcome. But for the network engineer now let's connect back to the developer. The network engineer whose trying to make this intent possible for the execs. There's a places they need to set up the SQSS. And won't it be easy of them if there was a simple API that they can use to create that solution to drive that policy across the devices. Whether Cisco devices or non Cisco devices. >> This has been the challenge for network engineers in general. Because you want to have things in control and locked down but as you want to do more things that are programmable. >> Correct. >> There's been some provisioning and some configuration management things. >> Correct. >> You're saying, hey you're gonna lock down all the architecture and then move up. Use the API's to do better integration. Make things run smoothly without disrupting the network. Is that right? >> That's part of it. But also it's about making it easy for them. Correct? Simplify the process of doing it. The process of making it happen was long steps of CLI command. That now that network engineer was going continuously. A lot of the time people actually tells us that they would have this cut and paste copy of the command. That they will take from one place go to the next place next device and next device. And continue to do that step. And that's the productivity game we are driving by simplifying where one API call can go across all the devices and make that change happen. >> We've heard that a lot from on DevNet and the hallway conversations that said DevNet's made my life easier. >> Yes. >> I don't have to do those mundane tasks. >> Exactly. >> That were part of getting things done. Okay. Let me ask you personal question. As director of product management for DevNet. What is your product scope? What are you working on? Can you take a minute? >> That's a very good question. And that's where some of these offers we were talking about earlier come in to play. So for example, within Devnet we create a lot of offers to make developers lives simple. Whether we are talking about giving them the best quality of learning content. Or giving them hosted Sandbox environment to try and test. All of that requires a lot of product management knowledge and the need. But really what the 2ADS we have work more closely to get them out to market. One is the thing called Code Exchange. It's a tool for our developer committee. Where we have aggregated the public git code across the Cisco technologies. >> That's on GitHub I think. >> GitHub code right. Absolutely. But the second powerful thing on top of that is our Ecosystem Exchange. This is where we are bringing an aggregated view of every partner out there. Every Cisco partner whose creating great solutions on our API's in a single place our developers can go and find that solution. To really address the business outcome they are looking to address. >> Shubha, I want you to put some color commentary around of some of the feedback you've heard. We hear people of the DevNet community saying I've come to Cisco Live and I spend all my week here in DevNet. Because it really is kind of like a kid in the candy store. (Shubha laughs) >> From a computer science or developer prospective. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the cool examples and demos that you guys have here? What's your favorite? What are some of the things that are jumping out that people are gravitating towards? >> I will tell you one of the most popular sessions that I have seen in the last few days here is Network Programmability for Networking Juniors. That's one. There's also a very Network Programmability one-on-one. Coding one-on-one class. It's basic Python. But applying it in network context. Those are some of the most popular sessions that I have seen. But when it comes to cool demos there's a cool demo around Flex IQ. I think you might be talking to Ashish later about that. >> Yes. >> And really it's a retail scenario how you are tracking. Using the location based service example. But in this case camera feed. Really analyzing where people are. And you'll get to hear more about this. >> We took a ad. I saw the demo. >> Yeah. >> The Flex IQ. First of all I love the name. I said trademark it immediately. (Shubha laughs) Get it out there. First use wins. And it's already out there. But it's really taking a A access point. >> This is an access point. >> And it plugs into a camera. And a great example of some of the coolness you can do with a preexisting condition. In this case an access point. >> So each of these information points that data one that they are collecting. Whether it's a camera feed. It's a location service. Like information about the devices and the environment. Each set of data is the relevance in this. Which is driving the newest use cases. And this data is coming through API's that have labeled but I'd say morockie access point API. All the camera API that are labeled that have enabled C Space. >> This is really the aha moment for me. I've been following Cisco really since the 90's. >> Yeah. >> Or at least when they formed. Being the young gun at the time. Younger than I am now. 30 years ago. But it was really networking. Connecting companies together. It was the plumbing. It was the core. >> Yes. Unstoppable since then. Now the success is still there. But it's really the problem solving is never going away. I saw this security challenges that were outlined in the keynote. We all know Cybe Ops is a huge issue. Cloud is here. You've got industrial IOT going on. And IOT. But these examples that DevNet is showing is that these new capabilities with I won't say a hack but a maker faire culture. >> It is a maker culture right. Which is lot of DIY stuff. So this lot of learning by playing with the API's and multiple one of them. And you'd really find use cases you have never addressed before. We also have a design thinking workshop here going on. And part of it is really thinking about the use cases from the user prospective. What you are trying to address. Before finding the cool technologies. Really understand what your users' needs are. >> Yeah. >> And we are doing a lot of things around that. And bringing it connecting it back to the APIs. Once we learn the right needs. And finding these use cases that were never possible before. >> Well I talked to Susie all the time about this. >> Yeah. >> And I know she's really hardcore on this. But you guys have nailed the community aspect as well. You've brought that open source ethos into the formula. Which makes it more collaborative. No one wants to be alone. I mean the last thing a network engineer wants to do is be the old way of being tied to the chair on the network. Troubleshooting problems. They want to have more collaboration As some of this creativity kicks in. So it's really a new time. How are you guys handling this? Is it like people are having an awakening moment? Or what are you guys doing to nature this? What are some of the exciting things? >> And the best part about the community is that communities learning with each other. Right? It's this feeling of we are enabling our community both traditionally and through even like Cisco Live and DevNet Create. We bring them together to be able to learn from each other much as we learn with them. And trying to define the right use cases and solutions. And that's what the company's behind. The 500,000 developers who are coming and learning with us. They have found the use cases they were addressing for their business. They also found a new skill set that they were looking to learn before. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of them have come along where they are showing their tech cred in the community. Really being the community leaders. >> You know it's been kind of a downer some of the narrative I've seen from press outlets other press outlets and other kind of naysayers has been Hey network guys. You're gonna be automated away. Go learn how to code to save your career. Actually that's not happening. >> That is not happening at all. >> The power of networking certainly as security moves down lower on the stack. And policy and these cool service oriented service meshes. Kubernetes. Really points to the relevance of the network engineer more than ever. You've got SDN. Software Defined Data Center. That's not going away. Automation is going to take mundane tasks away. >> Yes. >> But actions happening at the app layer. >> They have that expertise and 20 years plus experience knowing how networks should be running to make these things possible. The use cases around the applications possible. >> They're more relevant than ever. >> They are more relevant than ever. I would say. Exactly. That's the key. >> Well you guys are at the beginning I think of another set of inflection point. Certainly DevNet's gone in a quick four years. You're connecting to the Cloud Native World with DevNet Create. Which is phenomenal. Those are two worlds that are coming together. I just see another inflection point coming. Maybe it's a million developers. But you've been success in the enterprise where it's been really difficult. Even Microsoft with their legacy developer program .net. The Visual Basic and all the MSDM stuff. >> At the by GitHub >> Yup. >> To kind of maintain relevance. Other companies like Oracle VM wear and other ones they're having a hard time. You guys are just kicking butt. >> So part of it for us is not only focusing on traditional infrastructure. But also talking about the app developer. So these application developers who did not know about network at all. A lot of times they had to fight with their networking juniors to get their application the particular function they wanted to have. Right? So that what we are enabling by bringing them together. Also we have been running small programs like we are trying new markets. Global markets. China, India and some of the things like really reaching out to the big large hackathons. Which are traditionally. For example in India we were recently doing a smart India hackathon. >> Nice. >> There are 500,00 students participated in solving real problems for the country. And DevNet was the provider of applications and API's. Bringing them into the application world with the understanding of network. >> A lot of growth in India and China. Certainly massive new developers coming on board. Okay final question to wrap up the segment. I gotta get your prospective. Take your DevNet hat off for a second. >> Okay. Put your Cisco hat on. >> Sure. For the folks who couldn't make Cisco Live this year what's the big story coming out of the event this year? You guys have been successful with the 500,000 developers. What's the big story developing here? What should people know is the most important story for Cisco Live 2018? >> I think the biggest story I would like to call out is that network is open for business. Network is really open for you to really come and make your intent. Your use cases. Your business outcomes possible. And that's the biggest story I will call out. >> Shubha Govil here product management for DevNet. Here on the Cube. Live coverage. Day two of three days. I'm John Furrier. Stay with us for more live coverage. As we start winding down day two. A lot of great action. The network is programmable. It's creating value and new use cases. And the developers are in the center of the action. The network engineers seeing a clear path of the Cloud and more. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this special CUBEConversation here in the Palo Alto CUBE studio. I'm John Furrier, the co-host, theCUBE co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. In theCUBE we're here with Alan Cohen, CUBE alumni, joining us today for a special segment on the future of technology and the impact to society. Always good to get Alan's commentary, he's the Chief Commercial Officer for Illumio, industry veteran, has been through many waves of innovation and now more than ever, this next wave of technology and the democratization of the global world is upon us. We're seeing signals out there like cryptocurrency and blockchain and bitcoin to the disruption of industries from media and entertainment, biotech among others. Technology is not just a corner industry, it's now pervasive and it's having some significant impacts and you're seeing that in the news whether it's Facebook trying to figure out who they are from a data standpoint to across the board every company. Alan, great to see you. >> Always great to be here, I always feel like, I can't tell whether I'm at the big desk at ESPN or I've got the desk chair at CNBC, but that's what it's like being on theCUBE. >> Great to have you on extracting the signal noises, a ton of noise out there, but one of things of the most important stories that we're tracking is, that's becoming very obvious, and you're seeing it everywhere from Meed to all aspects of technology. Is the impact of technology to people in society, okay you're seeing the election, we all know what that is, that's now a front and center in the big global conversation, the Russian's role of hacking, the weaponizing of data, Facebook's taking huge brand hits on that, to emerging startups, and the startup game that we're used to in Silicon Valley is changing. Just the dynamics, I mean cryptocurrency raises billions of dollars but yet (laughs) something like 10, 20% of it's been hacked and stolen. It's a really wild west kind of environment. >> Well it's a very different environment. John, you and I have been in the technology industry certainly for a whole bunch of lines under our eyes over the years have gone there. My friend Tom Friedman has this phrase that he says, "Everybody's connected and nobody's in control," so the difference is that, as you just said, the tech industry is not a separate industry. The tech industry is in every product and service. Cryptocurrency is like, the concept of that money is just code. You know, our products and services are just code, it raises a couple of really core issues. Like for us on the security point of view, if I don't trust people with the products they're selling me, that I feel like they're going to be hacked, including my personal data, so your product now includes my personal information, that's a real problem because that could actually melt down commerce in a real way. Obviously the election is if I don't trust the social systems around it, so I think we're all at an, and I'd like to say world is still kind of like iRobot moment, and if you remember iRobot, it's like, people build all these robots to serve humankind and then one day the robots wake up and they go, "We have our own point of view on how things are going to work" and they take over, and I think whether it's the debate about AI, whether cryptocurrency's good or bad, or more importantly, the products and services I use, which are now all digitally connected to me, whether I trust them or not is an issue that I think everyone in our industry has to take a step back because without that trust, a lot of these systems are going to stop growing. >> Chaos is an opportunity, I think that's been quoted many times, a variety-- >> You sound like Jeff Goldblum in like Jurassic Park, yeah. (laughing) >> So chaos is upon us, but this is an opportunity. The winds are shifting, and that's an opportunity for entrepreneurs. The technology industry has to start working for us but we've got to be mindful of these blind spots and the blind spots are technology for good not necessarily just for profits, so that also is a big story right now. We see things like AI for good, Intel has been doing a lot of work on that area, and you see stars dedicated to societal impact, then young millennials, you see the demographic shift where they want to work on stuff that empowers people and changes society so a whole kind of new generation revolution and kind of hippie moment, if you look at the 60s, what the 60s were, right? >> Well there's people out in the street protesting, right? There were a couple of million women out in the street this weekend, so we are in that kind of moment again, people are not happy with things. >> And I believe this is a signal of a renaissance, a change, a sea change at enormous levels, so I want to get your thoughts on this. As technology goes out in mainstream, certainly from a security standpoint, your business Illumio is in that now where there's not a lot of control, just like you were mentioning before we came on that all the spends happening but no one has more than 4% market share. These are dynamics and this is not just within one vertical. What's your take on this, how do you view this sea change that's upon us, this tech revolution? >> Well, you know, think about it. You and I grew up in the era where clients server took over from main frame, right? So remember there was this big company called IBM and they owned a lot of the industry, and then it blew up for client server and then there were thousands of companies and it consolidated its way down, but when those thousands of new companies, like you didn't know what was going to be Apollo and what was going to be Oracle right? Like you didn't know how that was going to work out, there was a lot of change and a lot of uncertainty. I think now we're seeing this on a scale like that's 10x of this that there's so much innovation and there's so much connectedness going on very rapidly, but no one is in control. In the security market, you know, what's happening in our world is like, people said, okay I have to reestablish control over my data, I've lost that control, and I've lost it for good reasons, meaning I've evolved to the cloud, I've evolved to the app economy, I've done all of these things, and I've lost it for bad reasons because like am I, like I'm not really running my data center the way I should. We're in the beginning of a move in of people kind of reasserting that control, but it's very hard to put the genie back in the bottle because the world itself is so much more dynamic and more distributed. >> It's interesting, I've been studying communities and online communities for over a decade in terms of dynamics. You know, from the infrastructural level, how packets move to a human interaction. It's interesting, you mentioned that we're all connected and no one's in control, but you now see a ground swell of organic self-forming networks where communities are starting to work together. You kind of think about the analog world when we grew up without computers and networks, you kind of knew everyone, you knew your neighbor, you knew who the town loony was, you kind of knew things and people watch each other's kids and parents sat from the porch, let the kid play, that's the way that I grew up, but it was still chaotic but yet somewhat controlled by the group. So I got to ask you, when you see things like cryptocurrency, things like KYC, know your customer, anti money laundering, which is, you know these are policy based things, but we're in a world now where, you know, people don't know who their neighbors are. You're starting to see a dynamic where people are-- >> Put the phone down. >> Asserting themselves to know their neighbor, to know their customer, to have a connected tissue with context and so your trust and reputation become super important. >> Well I think people are really, so like every time there is a shift in technology, there's scary stuff. There's the fuddy-duddy moment where people are saying, "Oh we can't use that," or "I don't know that," and you know, clearly we're in this kind of new kam-ree and explosion of this cloud mobile blah blah blah type of computing thing and ... Blah blah blah is always a good intersection when you don't have a term. Then things form around it, and just as you said, so if you think about 25 years ago, right, people created The WELL and there was community writing first bulletin boards and like now we have Facebook and you go through a couple of generations and for a while, things feel out of control and then it reforms. I personally am an optimist. Ultimately I believe in the inherent goodness of people, but inherent goodness leaves you open and then, you know, could be manipulated, and people figure these things out. Whether it's cryptocurrency or AI, they are really exciting technologies that don't have any ground rules, right? What's going to happen I believe is that people are going to reestablish ground rules, they're going to figure out some of the core issues, and some of these things may make it, and some of these things may not make it. Like cryptocurrency, like I don't know whether it makes it or not, but certainly the blockchain as a technology we're going to be incorporating in what we do, and maybe the blockchain replaces VPNs and last generation's way of protecting zeros and ones. If AI is figuring out how to read an MRI in five minutes, it's a good thing, and if the AI is teaching you how to exclude old folks for me finding jobs, it's a bad thing. I think as technology forms, there's always Spectre and 007, right? There's always good and bad sides and you know, I think if you believe-- >> I'm with you on that. I think value shifts and I think ultimately it's like however you want to look at it will shift to something, value activity will be somewhere else. Behind me in the bookshelf is a book called The World is Flat and you're quoted in it a lot as a futurist because you have inherently that kind of view, well that's not what you do for a living, but you're kind of in an opt-- >> Alan: Marketing, futurist, kind of same thing. >> Thomas Friedman, the book, that was a great book and at that time, it was game changing. If you take that premise into today where we are living in a flat world and look at cryptocurrency, and then over with the geo political landscape, I mean I just can't see why the Federal Reserve wouldn't reign in this cryptocurrency because if Japan's going to control a bunch of, or China, it's going to be some interesting conversations. I mean I would be like all over that if I was in the Federal Reserve. >> I think people-- Look, cryptocurrency's really interesting and I think people a little over-rotated. If you look at the amount of GDP that's invested in cryptocurrency, it's like, I don't know, there might've been, you know 20 years ago the same amount involved invested in Beanie Babies, right? I mean things show up for a while and the question is is it sustainable over time? Now I'm trained as an economist, you and I have had this conversation, so I don't know how you have a series of monetary without kind of governmental backing, I just don't understand. But I do understand that people find all kinds of interesting ways to trade, and if it's an exchange, like I mean what's the difference between gold and cryptocurrency? Somebody has ascribed a value to something that really has no efficacy outside of its usage. Yeah I mean you can make a filling or bracelets out of gold but it doesn't really mean anything except people agree to a unit of value. If people do that with cryptocurrency, it does have the ability to become a real currency. >> I want to pick your perspective on this being an economist, this is is the hottest area of cryptocurrency, it's also known as token economics, is a concept. >> Alan: Token economics. >> You know that's an area that theCUBE, with CUBE coins, experimenting with tokens. Tokens technically are used for things in mobile and whatnot but having a token as a utility in a network is kind of the whole concept, so the big trend that we're seeing and no one's really talking about this yet is instead of having a CTO, Chief Technology Officer, they're looking for a CEO, a Chief Economist Officer, because what you're seeing with the MVP economy we're living in and this gamification which became growth hack which didn't really help users, the notion of decentralized applications and token economics can open the door for some innovation around value and it's an economic problem, how you have a fiscal policy of your token, there's a monetary policy, what's it tied to? A product and a technology, so you now have a now a new, twisted, intertwined mechanism. >> Well you have it as part of this explosion, right? We're at a period of time, it feels like there's a great amount of uncertainly because everything's, you know, there's a lot of different forces and not everybody's in control of them, and you know, it's interesting. Google has this architecture, they call it BeyondCorp, where the concept is like networks are not trusted so I will just put my trust in this device, Duo Security's a great example of a company that's built a technology, a security technology around it which is completely antithetical to everything we know about networks and security. They're saying everything's the internet, I'll just protect the device that it's on. It's a kind of perfect architecture for a world like where nobody is in charge, so just isolate those, buy this, what is a device? It's a token too, it's a person, your iPhone's your personal token. Then over time, systems will form around it. I think we just have to, we always have to learn how to function in a different type of economy. I mean democracy was a new economy 250 years ago that kind of screwed around with most of the world, and a lot of people didn't think it would make it, in fact we went through two World War wars that it was a little on the edge whether democracy was going to make it and it seems to have done okay, like it was pretty good IPO to buy into. You know, in 1776. But it's always got risks and struggles with it. I think if, ultimately it comes together, it's whether a large group of people can find a way to function socially, economically, and with their personal safety in these systems. >> You bring up a great point, so I want to go to the next level in this conversation which is around-- >> Alan: You've got the wrong guy if you're going to the next level because I just tapped out. >> No, no, no we'll get you there. It's my job to get you there. The question is that everyone always wants to look at, whether it's someone looking at the industry or actors inside the industries across the board, mainly the tech and we'll talk about tech, is the question of are we innovating? You brought up some interesting nuances that we talk about with token economics. I mean Steve Jobs had the classic presentation where he had street signs, technology meets liberal arts. That's a mental image that people who know Steve Jobs, know Apple, was a key positioning point for Apple at that time which was let's make computers and technology connect with society, liberal arts. But we were just talking about is the business impact of technology, the economics, and that's just not like just some hand waving, making technology integrate with business. You're in the security business, There are some gamification technology, gamification that's business built into the products. So the question is, if we have the integration of business, technology, economics, policy, society rolling into the product definitions of innovation, does that change the lens and the aperture of what innovation is? >> I think it does, right? The IT industry's somewhere between three and four trillion dollars depends on how it counts in. It grows pretty slowly, it grows by a low single digit. That tells me as composite, like is that, that slow growth is a structural signal about how consumers of technology think in a macro sense. On a micro sense, things shift very rapidly, right? New platforms show up, new applications show up, all kinds of things show up. What I don't think we have done yet, to your point, is in this new integrated world, the role of technology is not just technology anymore. I don't think, you know you said you need Chief Economical Officer, what about Chief Political Officer? What about a Chief Social Officer? How many heads of HR make decisions about the insertion of systems into their business? And that's what this kind of iRobot concept is in my mind which is that you know, we are exceeding control of things that used to be done by human beings to systems and when you see control, the social mores, the political mores, the cultural mores, and the human emotional mores have to move with it. We don't tend to think about things like that. We're like, "I win and my competitors lose." Like technology used to be much more of a zero sum, my tech's better than yours. But the question is not just is my tech better than yours, is my customer better off in their industry for the consumption of my technology of inserting it into their offering or their service? You know what, that is probably going to be the next area of study. The other thing that's very important in whether, any of you have read Peter Thiel's book Zero to One, the nature of competition technology used to feel like a flat playing field and now the other thing that's rising is do you have super winners? And then what is the power of the super winners? So you mentioned whether it's Facebook or Google or Amazon or you know, or Microsoft, the FANG companies right? Their roles are so much more significant now than the Four Horsemen of the Nasdaq were in 2000 when you had Intel and Cisco and Oracle and Saht-in it's a different game. >> You're seeing that now. That's a good point, so you're reinforcing kind of this notion that the super players if you will are having an impact, you're mentioning the confluence of these new sectors, you know, government, policy, social are new areas. The question is, this sounds like a strategic imperative for the industry, and we're early so it's not like there's a silver bullet or is there, it doesn't sound like there, so to me that's not really in place yet, I mean. >> Oh no. We're not even in alpha. We have demo code for the new economy and we're trying to get the new model funded. >> John: That's the demo version, not the real version. It's the classic joke. >> Yeah this not the alpha or the beta version that like you're going to go launch it. If people think they're launching it, I think it's a little preliminary and you know, it's not just financial investment, it's like do I buy in? I'll tell you something that's really interesting. I've been visiting a bunch of our customers lately and the biggest change I'd say in the last two years is they now have to prove to their customers they're going to be good custodians of their data. Think about that, like you could go to any digital commerce you do, any website you use and you give them basically the ticket to the Furrier family privacy, you do, but you don't spend a lot of time questioning whether they're really going to protect your data. That has changed. And it's really changing in B2B and in government organizations. >> The role of data to us is regulation, GDPR in Europe, but this is a whole new dynamic. >> It's not just my data because I'm worried about my credit card getting hacked, I'm worried about my identity. Like am I going to show up as a meme in some social media feed that's substituted for the news? I don't want to use the FN word, but you know what I mean? It is a really brave new world. It's like a hyper-democracy and a hyper-risky state at the same time. >> We're living in an area of massive pioneering, new grounds, this is new territory so there's a lot of strategic imperatives that are yet not defined. So now let's take it to how people compete. We were talking before we came on camera, you mentioned the word we're in an MVP economy, minimum viable product concept, and you're seeing that being a standard operating procedure for essentially de-risking this challenge. The old way of you know, build it, ship it, will it work? We're seeing the impact from Hollywood to big tech companies to every industry. >> Well you've got a coffee mug for a company that does both. Amazon does MVP in entertainment, like we'll create one pilot and see if it goes as opposed to ordering a season for 17 million dollars to hey, let's try this feature and put it out on AWS. What's interesting is I don't think we've completely tilted but the question is will buyers of technology, of entertainment products, of any product start to say, "I'll try it." You know like, look, I've done four startups and I always know there's somebody I can go to get and try my early product. There are people that just have an appetite, right? The Jeffrey Moores, early adapter, all the way to the left of the-- >> They'll buy anything new. >> They'll try it, they're interested, they have the time and the resources, or they're just intellectually curious. But it was always a very small group of people in the IT industry. What I think that the MVP economy is starting to do is look, I Kickstarted my wallet. I don't know if I'm the only person who bought that skinny little wallet on Kickstarter, it doesn't matter to me, it had appeal. >> What's the impact of the MVP economy? Is it going to change to the competitive landscape like Peter Thiel was suggesting? Does it change the economics? Does it change the makeup of the team? All of the above? What's your thoughts on how this is going to impact? Certainly the encumbrance will seem to be impacted or not. >> I think two things happen. One, it attacks the structural way markets work. If you go back to classical economics, land, labor, and capital, and people who own those assets, now you add information as a fourth. If those guys were around now they would say that would be the fourth core asset, production, I'm sorry, means of production is the term. The people who can dominate that would dominate a market. Now that that's flattened out, you know, I think it pushes against the traditional structures and it allows new giants to kind of show up overnight. I mean the e-commerce market is rife with companies that have, like look at Stich Fix. A company driven by AI, fashions, tries to figure out what you like, sends it to you every month, just had a monster IPO. We invented, by the way the Spiegal Catalog, except like with a personal assistant and you know, it's changed that in just a short number of years. I think two things happen. One is you'll get new potential giants but certainly new players in the market quickly. Two, it'll force a change in the business model of every company. If you're in a cab in any city in the world, I'm not saying whether the app works there or not, Uber and Lyft has forced every cab company to show you here's the app to call the cab. They haven't quite caught up to the rest of the experience. What I think happens is ultimately, the larger players in an industry have to accommodate that model. For people like me, people who build companies or large technology companies, we may have to start thinking about MVPing of features early on, working with a small group, which is a little what the beta process is but now think about it as a commercial process. Nobody does it, but I bet sure a lot of people will be doing it in five years. >> I want to get your take on that approach because you're talking about really disrupting, re-imagining industry, the Spiegal catalog now becomes digital with technology, so the role of technology in business, we kind of talked about the intertwine of that and its nuance, it's going to get better in my opinion. But specifically the IT, the information technology industry is being disrupted. Used to be like a department, and the IT department will give you your phone on your desk, your PC on your desk or whatever, now that's being shattered and everyone that's participating in that IT industry is evolving. What's your take on the IT industry's disruption? >> Well look, it started 20 years ago when Marc Benioff and Salesforce decided to sell the sales forces instead of IT people, right? They went around to the end buyer. I don't think it's a new trend, I think a lot of technology leaders now figure out how to go to the business buyer directly and make their pitch and interestingly enough, the business buyer, if the IT team doesn't get on board, will do that. >> John: Because of cloud computing and ... >> Because of everything. The modern analog I think in our world is that the developers are increasingly in control. Like my friend Martin Casado up in Andreessen talks about this a lot. The traditional model on our industry is you build a product, you launch it, you launch your company, you work with the traditional analyst firms, you try to get a little bit of halo, you get customer references, those are the things you do and there was a very wall structured, for example, enterprise buying cycle. >> And playbook. >> Playbook, and there's the challenger sale and there's Jeffrey Moore and there's like seeing God. You've got your textbooks on how it's been done. As everything turns into code, the people who work with code for a living increasingly become the front end of your cycle and if you can get to them, that changes. Like I mean think about like, you know, Tom wrote about this actually in The World is Flat, like Linux started as a patchy. It didn't start with the IT department, it started with developers and there was the Linux foundation and now Linux is everything. >> There's a big enemy called the big mini computer, and not operating systems and work stations. >> Wiped out whole parts of Boston and other parts of the world, right? >> Exactly, that's why I moved out here. >> You filed client's server out here. >> I filed a smell of innovation. No but this is interesting because this location of industries is happening, so with that, so they also on the analog, so Martin's at Andreessen, so we'll do a little VC poke there at the VCs because we love them of course, they're being dislocated-- >> I don't (mumbles) my investors. >> Well no, their playbook is being challenged. Here's an example, go big or go home investment thesis seems not to be working. Where if you get too much cash on the front end, with the MVP economy we were just riffing on and with the big super powers, the Amazons and the Googles, you can't just go big or go home, you're going to be going home more than going big. >> I think they know that. I mean Dee-nuh Suss-man who's I think Chief Investment Officer at Nasdaq has a very well known talking line that there are half as many public companies as there were 10 years ago, so the exit scenario for our industry is a little bit different. We now have things like acqui-hires, right we have other models for monetization, but I think what the flip side of it is, we're in the-- >> Adapt or die because the value will shift. Liquidity's changing, which acqui-hires-- >> I think the investment community gets it completely and they spend a lot more time with the developer mindset. In fact I think there's been a doubling down focus on technical founders versus business founders for companies for just that reason because as everything turns to code, you got to hang out with the code community. I think there are actually-- >> You think there'll be more doubling down on technical founders? You do, okay. >> Yeah I think because that is ultimately the shift. There are business model shifts, but it's, you know, I mean like Uber was a business model shift, I mean the technology was the iPhone and GPS and they wrote an app for it, but it was a business model shift, so it can be a business model shift. >> And then scale. >> And then scale and then all of those other things. But I think if you don't think about developers when you're in our, and it's like we built Illumio because a developer could take the product and get started. I mean you can, developers actually can write security policy with our product because there's a class of customers, where as not everyone where that matters. There's other people where the security team is in charge or the infrastructure team is in charge but I think everything is based on zeros and ones and everything is based on code and if you're not sensitive to how code gets bought, consumed, I mean there's a GitHub economy which is I don't even have to write the code, I'll go look at your code and maybe use pieces of it, which has always been around. >> Software disruption is clear. Cloud computing is scale. Agile is fast, and with de-risking capabilities, but the craft is coming back and some will argue, we've talked about on theCUBE before is that, you know, the craftsmanship of software is moving to up the stack in every industry, so-- >> I think it's more like a sports league. I love the NBA, right? In the old days, your professional team, you'd scout people in college. Now they used to scout them in high school, now they're scouting kids in middle school. >> (laughs) That's sad. >> Well what it says is that you have to-- >> How can you tell? >> You know but they can, right? I think you know, your point about it craft, you're going to start tracking developers as they go through their career and invest and bet on them. >> Don't reveal our secrets to theCUBE. We have scouts everywhere, be careful out there. (laughs) >> But think about that, imagine it's like there's such a core focus on hiring from college, but we had an intern from high school two years ago. We hire freshman. >> Okay so let's go, I want to do a whole segment on this but I want to just get this point because we're both sports fans and we can riff on sports all day long. >> I'm just not getting the chance >> And the greatness of Tom Brady >> to talk about the Patriots. >> And Tom Brady's gotten his sixth finger attached to his hands for his sixth ring coming up. No but this is interesting. Sports is highly data driven. >> Alan: Yep. >> Okay and so what you're getting at here, with an MVP economy, token economics is more of a signal, not yet mainstream, but you can almost go there and think okay data driven gives you more accuracy so if you can bring data driven to the tech world, that's kind of an interesting point. What's your thoughts on that? >> Yeah I mean look, I think you have to track everything. You have to follow things, and by the way, we have great tools now, you can track people through LinkedIn. There's all kinds of vehicles to tracking individuals, you track products, you track everything, and you know look, we were talking about this before we went on the show right, people make decisions based on analytics increasingly. Now the craft part is what's interesting and I'm not the complete expert, I'm on the business side, I'm not an engineer by training, but look a lot of people understand a great developer is better than five bad developers. >> Well Mark Andris' 10x is a classic example of that. >> There's clearly a star system involved, so if I think in middle school or in high school, you're going to be a good developer, and I'm going to track your career through college and I'm going to try to figure out how to attach. That's why we started hiring freshmen. >> Well my good friend Dave Girouard started a company that does that, will fund the college education for people that they want to bet on. >> Sure, they're just taking an option in them. >> Yeah, option on their earnings. Exactly. >> They are. >> It sounds like token economics to me. (laughs) >> You know you can sell anything. We are in that economy, you can sell those pieces. The good news is I think it can be a great flattener, meaning that it can move things back more to a meritocracy because if I'm tracking people in high school, I'm not worrying whether they're going to go to Stanford or Harvard or Northwestern, right? I'm going to track their abilities in an era and it's interesting, speaking about craft, you know, what are internships? They're apprenticeships. I mean it is a little bit like a craft, right? Because you're basically apprenticing somebody for a future payout for them coming to work for you and being skilled because they don't know anything when they come and work, I shouldn't say that, they actually know a lot of things. >> Alan, great to have you on theCUBE as always, great to come in and get the update. We'll certainly do more but I'd like to do a segment on you on the startup scene and sort of the venture capital dynamics, we were tracking that as well, we've been putting a lot of content out there. We believe Silicon Valley's a great place. This mission's out there, we've been addressing them, but we really want to point the camera this year at some of the great stuff, so we're looking forward to having you come back in. My final question for you is a personal one. I love having these conversations because we can look back and also look forward. You do a lot of mentoring and you're also helping a lot of folks in the industry within just your realm but also startups and peers. What's your advice these days? Because there's a lot of things, we just kind of talked a lot of it. When people come to you for advice and say, "Alan, I got a career change," or "I'm looking at this new opportunity," or "Hey, I want to start a company," or "I started a company," how is your mentoring and your advisory roles going on these days? Can you share things that you're advising? Key points that people should be aware of. >> Well look, ultimately ... I never really thought about it, you just asked the question so, ultimately, I think to me it comes down to own your own fate. What it means is like do something that you're really passionate about, do something that's going to be unique. Don't be the 15th in any category. Jack Welch taught us a long time ago that the number one player in a market gets 70% of the economic value, so you don't want to play for sixth place. It's like Ricky Bobby said, if you're not first, you're last. (John chuckles) I mean you can't always be first, but you should play for that. I think for a lot of companies now, I think they have to make sure that, and people participating, make sure that you're not playing the old playbook, you're not fighting yesterday's battle. Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind said, "There's a lot of money in building up an empire, "and there's even more money in tearing it down." There are people who enter markets to basically punish encumbrance, take share because of innovation, but I think the really inspirational is you know, look forward five years and find a practical but aggressive path to being part of that side of history. >> So are we building up or are we taking down? I mean it seems to me, if I'm not-- >> You're always doing both. The ocean is always fighting the mountains, right? That is the course of, right? And then new mountains come up and the water goes someplace else. We are taking down parts of the client server industry, the stack that you and I built a lot of our personal career of it, but we're building this new cloud and mobile stack at the same time. And you're point is we're building a new currency stack and we're going to have to build a new privacy stack. It's never, the greatest thing about our industry is there's always something to do. >> How has the environment of social media, things out there, we're theCUBE, we do our thing with events, and just in general, change the growth plans for individuals if you were, could speak to your 23 year old self right now, knowing what you know-- >> Oh I have one piece of advice I give everybody. Take as much risk as humanly possible in your career earlier on. There's a lot of people that have worked with me or worked for me over the years, you know people when they get into their 40s and they go, "I'm thinking about doing a startup," I go, "You know when you got two kids in college "and you're trying to fund your 401K, "working for less cash and more equity may not be "the most comfortable conversation in your household." It didn't work well in my household. I mean I'm like Benjamin Button. I started in big companies, I'm going to smaller companies. Some day it's just going to be me and a dog and one other guy. >> You went the wrong way. >> Yeah I went the wrong way and I took all the risk later. Now I was lucky in part that the transition worked. When I see younger folks, it's always like, do the riskiest thing humanly possible because the penalty is really small. You have to find a job in a year, right? But you know, you don't have the mortgage, and you don't have the kids to support. I think people have to build an arc around their careers that's suitable with their risk profile. Like maybe you don't buy into bitcoin at 19,000. Could be wrong, could be 50,000 sometime, but you know it's kind of 11 now and it's like-- >> Yeah don't go all in on 19, maybe take a little bit in. It's the play and run-- >> Dollar cost averaging over the years, that's my best fidelity advice. I think that's what's really important for people. >> What about the 45 year old executive out there, male or female obviously, the challenges of ageism? We're in economy, a gig economy, whatever you want to call, MVP economics, token economics, this is a new thing. Your advice to someone who's 45 who just says "Hey you're too old for our little hot startup." What should they do? >> Well being on the other side of that history I understand it firsthand. I think that you have an incumbent role in your career to constantly re-educate yourself. If you show up, whether you're a 25, 35, 45, 55, or 65, I hope I'm not working when I'm 75, but you never know right? (mumbles) >> You'll never stop working, that's my prediction. >> But you know have you mastered the new skills? Have you reinvented yourself along the way? I feel like I have a responsibility to feed the common household. My favorite part of my LinkedIn profile, it says, "Obedient worker bee at the Cohen household," because when I go home, I'm not in charge. I've always felt that it's up to me to make sure I'm not going to be irrelevant. That to me is, you know, that to me, I don't worry about ageism, I worry about did I-- >> John: Relevance. >> Yeah did I make myself self-obsolescent? I think if you're going to look at your career and you haven't looked at your career in 15 years and you're trying to do something, you may be starting from a deficit. So the question, what can I do? Before I make that jump, can I get involved, can I advise some small companies? Could I work part time and on the weekends and do some things so that when you finally make that transition, you have something to offer and you're relevant in the dialogue. I think that's, you know, nobody trains you, right? We're not good as an industry-- >> Having a good community, self-learning, growth mindset, always be relevant is not a bad strategy. >> Yeah, I mean because I find increasingly, I see people of all ages in companies. There is ageism, there is no doubt. There's financial ageism and then there's kind of psychological bias ageism, but if you keep yourself relevant and you are the up to speed in your thing, people will beat a path to want to work for you because there's still a skill gap in our industry-- >> And that's the key. >> Yeah, make sure that you're on the right side of that skill gap, and you will always have something to offer to people. >> Alan, great to have you come in the studio, great to see you, thanks for the commentary. It's a special CUBEConversation, we're talking about the future of technology impact the society and a range of topics that are emerging, we're on a pioneering, new generational shift and theCUBE is obviously covering the most important stories in Silicon Valley from figuring out what fake news is to impact to the humans around the world and again, we're doing our part to cover it. Alan Cohen, CUBEConversation, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)