>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HOSHO CON 2018. Brought to you by HOSHO. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE special live coverage here in Las Vegas for the first ever, Blockchain Security Conference. Really discussing security as an industry, it's called HOSHO CON, put on by HOSHO. We're here with the Co-Founder and CEO of HOSHO and main supporters of sponsoring this project or event HOSHO CON. We have Yo Sub Kwon, who is the CEO and Co-Founder. Good to see you. >> Good to see you, good to be here. Hey thanks for putting this on. I've interviewed Hartej, your Co-founder, in Toronto the Futures conference. We've had many great conversations on theCUBE. But when we talked about HOSHO CON, this conference, he really wanted to do it as an industry conference. Not as just a HOSHO event. >> (Yo agrees) >> This is really key to you guys culture here at HOSHO your company. >> Yeah. >> Take a minute and explain the event. Why this event? Why the format? And that it is open? >> I mean basically, you know, like we've been to just so many events over the, like I think we've done like 80 events this year, and the topic of conversation is, you know, around investing, it's around ICO's, it's around all these things and security touches all of those and I just feel like, and we all felt it and like the other security companies felt it too, that it just wasn't a topic that was discussed in great enough depth especially given the increasing amounts of hacks and theft and all these problems that relate directly to security. And I just feel like it's really important for us as an industry to discuss, you know, what security practices are good? What should be done? How you should do them? What resources are available to companies to learn more about security? And what resources don't exist and need to be developed? And that needs to be done in a collaborative way. Well congratulations and props to you guys for really sponsoring this and taking the leadership role in the industry but again you guys are humble and it's a good way to do it. Is to have these conversations. So thank you for doing that, appreciate it and thanks for having theCUBE here. We really appreciate it. The question I want to ask you is: I've noticed a trend here, first of all a lot of smart people here, so it's like, it's not a massive, no IPO, ICO pitch competitions, this is really down and dirty security. >> Yeah. >> Okay, black hat, white hat but it's kind of a intercultural vibe it's the community. >> Yeah. >> Coming together. But also two kind of tracks are developing there's the crypto security and then there's cyber security threats coming up. Because you said it's touching on all these points. And you're hearing, even hearing a little bit of IOT and hardware, we had Rivetz on earlier the CEO Steven Sprague so a lot of different solutions and a lot of different opportunities, a lot of different vulnerabilities. Can you explain the landscape of how the players are here, where are they coming from? >> Okay, yeah. >> What's their backgrounds? >> Absolutely I mean there are definitely, a lot of brilliant minds here and that was one of the goals of HOSHO CON is to bring people that are of all different, you know, parts of the industry whether they're, they're layers or they're information security experts or they're, you now, regulators or they're it just, developers bring them all into the same room and to kind of discuss these problems that you know, plague all of us and you know a developer's going to have a much different perspective and solution than a lawyer and but those thing can work together and the problems might still be the same. And so we've been in the industry for just like, even though HOSHO's a young company, the people that are on our team, myself, I've been in, I got into Bitcoin eight years ago, like we just have this network of people that are in the industry, have seen the kind of like cyclic nature of, you know, like a gigantic influx of people come in, these problems arise where, you know, entrepreneurs are like really focused on like growing, getting traction and then they focus less on their security, it goes to the wayside and then these big hacks happen and then the industry kind of smartens up and everything you know starts getting a little bit closer to what seems you know maybe safe or like approachable for a growth trajectory and then another gigantic influx happens and then the same thing. And so what we really need to do is like when that next big influx happens is to have standards in place to have things that an entrepreneur can just turn to and be like: "Okay, this is what I need to do "if I want to be considered credible in this industry "and I want to protect my users and my investors." >> Can you talk about some of the top conversations that are going on here, because I think that's a great point? People want you know legitimacy, they want solutions that work, that are credible and then maintain kind of, I won't say enterprise grade, but commercial grade reliable so that people can focus on building up their companies and or preparing for the growth. What is some of the top conversations? >> A lot of it's just learning about what other people do, like even with like Rivetz, we're putting, they're using the trust executions based on like what's already on billions of devices and you know basically letting people know that that space exists on this hardware and that they can be used for all these different purposes to validate you know data going in. And, you know, there's been conversations around custody. I was on a panel earlier today about custody and basically the way I felt like it left off and the conclusion was that there is a long way to go on custody but it is incredibly crucial. Big institutional players that want to enter the markets and want to put their money into a regulated custodian they're, it's difficult to do so even with registered custodian's existing because the limitations that they have in understanding the technology and being able to provide support for all the different digital assets that exist. >> So we're reporting this morning the SEC herein the US has tightened the noose on the ICO-funded startups. I think the story originated out of Decrypt Media but essentially the SEC, Securities and Exchange Commission, is cracking down and they're going back and saying: "You got to refund some of that money." >> Yeah. >> Because of violations. That's one regulatory thing but there's also, there's software that writes these smart contracts. You guys are in that business. The software is software money, security is critical. How stable is this becoming in your mind? What's the to do items? How should a company who want's to either use the ICO process or and or use token economics to fuel their business model they got to be secure on the business front? >> Yeah. So basically smart contracts were so new when we first got in to it that people just didn't know how to develop securely in them and so there were just critical mistakes being made all over the place. We've seen over the last year a lot of improvement on that front, more libraries are being developed and people are writing consistently more secure contracts. But now what we're seeing is contracts are getting increasingly complex and with additional complexity, because it's software there's room for, you know more problems and I think that it's going to, it's going to be an interesting challenge going forward, there's thing like formal verification I think that has a huge place in the future regarding smart contracts but it's there's a lot of tools that need to be developed that's one of the things that we worked on and we're really excited about is Meadow Suite because that's software that let's you develop smart contracts. We built it intentionally with security analysis in mind and then we made it more full featured to become a development tool for writing smart contracts and developing a protocols. And so I think the more of those type of things that you see come out that bring it more to feature parity to what software developers are used to if they're say building a web application it makes it a lot easier to adhere to good practices and write secure code. >> And also kind a not have to do manual audits? >> Yeah. >> I mean at the end of the day you want to get to some sort of automation. >> Absolutely. >> Framework. >> I mean we've already automated a lot of the things that we do. But and there's still a lot left to do but we know that there is a lot left that can be automated and we hope that eventually the tools are just put into developers hands were they can do most of that work themselves. >> Yo Sub take your CEO hat off from HOSHO for a minute put your industry hat on. >> Okay. >> What are some of the names here that, and conversations, topics that you find interesting personally? >> Okay, I mean. >> (John laughs) >> A lot of people that we brought here are like our friends, we know them right? And so like I was talking to. >> Your kind of celebrities. >> I was talking with like TokenMarket earlier and like, you know, we're partners with them and they really, they're really great guys and like some of the stuff that they are trying to do and you know just listening to what other companies are trying to do with like security tokens that seem to be the thing that really moving forward. And I'm kind of fascinated like, we try to stay agnostic you know like when we're like looking at all these different technologies. But then like someone explains something to you and you're awe man that's really cool. >> Yeah. (both laughs) >> And there's some good minds here. What's the coolest thing you've seen so far? >> Well I've been locked in, I've been locked behind doors in a lot of meetings so far but the, let's see, I think what Unchained Capital is working on is really sweet. They basically, I mean like I think their business model makes a lot of sense. Like basically they hold your crypto's so you maintain exposure to it and then they'll issue you a loan. They can like turn around a loan like in 24 hous, you just hand then a bunch of Bitcoin and then they'll just give you cash and then you can you know you have that cash and then you still maintain exposure through crypto if you pay it all back you get your crypto back. (laughs) >> So it's collateralized crypto? >> Exactly I mean like that makes perfect sense to me. Like you know it's just like as long as you can liquidate that crypto and Bitcoin or Ethereum like those are big enough markets now where you can easily liquidate. Well that's awesome. Thanks for putting on this event and I want to get back to HOSHO. How's business going? You're the CEO, Commander in Chief, what's going on with the company? How's things going? >> Yeah. >> Quick update. >> Well everything's crazy right, like we're moving quickly and the next steps are Asia. We really want to basically penetrate those markets. Only, we don't have as much coverage there as we would like but having spent some time there earlier this year doing some reconnaissance it's a crazy, crazy space over there. There's a lot of action happening, there's a lot of adoption. People are really enthusiastic about it but security almost seems like six months to a year behind North America and Europe as far as what exchanges are requiring, what investors are demanding of their portfolio companies. And so I think that now that they've had such major hacks happen over the last six months they're starting to realize. >> Major hacks talking about 60 Million. I mean I heard numbers up to 300 plus million. >> Yeah. >> I mean these are it's not like five dollars out of your wallet. >> Yeah. >> This is massive. >> Like over a billion dollars has been stolen in some capacity and like it's been pretty crazy yeah, so. >> Where's the big vulnerability? Exchanges, is it the DApps, where's the holes? >> They're all over the place but the biggest numbers definitely come from exchanges. Exchanges just need to be far more responsible and just, I feel like a lot of it is just negligence. They're growing so quickly that they don't pay attention to, you know, putting resources into educating their staff on really simple security practices. You know things like phishing and social engineering, like things that were good security practices still are good security practices. And a lot of those attacks are not even anything like some new exploit of a new technology it's the same kind of thing of like phishing, social engineering, sims swapping, you know, poor user access control, bad passwords. >> I mean the basics. >> Yeah. >> But this is what growth does to you you've point earlier. As more people start feeling growth there's more exposure service area wise. >> Yeah. >> New dynamics are kicking in. >> Well I'm starting to see new exchanges that are popping up that are you know taking security very seriously and the way they're treating it is that is their differentiator but in my mind like security shouldn't be a differentiator. Everybody should. >> (John laughs) >> If you're an exchange and you're holding massive amounts of other people's assets you should take security very seriously. That should just be a default, a standard. >> You have to be differentiating strategy with security it's not, it doesn't make sense. >> Marketing 101 you shouldn't be different, it should be standard. (both laughs) >> I mean if that's the state of the art, this is the problem. This highlights the problem. >> It does yeah. >> Alright so what's, what's the future for this event? How do you guys see this unfolding? Obviously this is the first inaugural event here HOSHO CON, How do you see it evolving? >> I think a lot of conversations should hopefully spur from this and we want to make this a yearly event. So we're definitely going to take a lot of the feedback from people that attended and see what they want, what they really enjoyed, what they really want to talk about. And even I think, a lot, since we're recoding all of the talks we'll be putting them up online at some point and I think it'd be really good to see like what the transition is like next year from like, where we were in some of these problems and addressing those problems you know a year from now. Like I think that will be really exciting. >> You guys are expanding in Europe, HOSHO good job with that. Who's the kind of clientele that you guys have? Is it ICO's? Is it companies? It is enterprise? Who are your target customers? >> So we have a lot of companies that are ICO's for sure. We have more exchanges and protocols joining those ranks. And then we are trying to move into enterprise as well. We made a partnership with Telefónica and developed a partnership with them to be able to sell to more enterprise clients and what they need. >> And what's your value proposition that you guys are offering? >> We are, well, we do smart contract audits, we do penetration testing. Those are things that a lot of companies in this space need. And then also we've been helping with security architecture and cryptocurrency assessments. >> And tooling, tools for development. >> And tooling, yeah we're trying to do our part. I mean we can't and won't do it alone but we try to develop things that, if we develop anything that's useful from a security perspective, we try and make it available for everyone. >> Yo Sub thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate your time and congratulations, it's a great event. >> Thank you. >> HOSHO CON sponsored by HOSHO and other's in the industry, it's an industry event, it's not just their company, it's their friends all coming together to solve the major problems with security, making it standard, making it safe and supporting the growth with the community. It's theCUBE covering live here in Vegas. I'm John Furrier stay with us for more CUBE coverage after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Over and welcome back to our live coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. The first inaugural conference on security in the blockchain security is obviously not new to the blockchain It's number one concern. Crypto is crypto, decentralized networks is what people want. Security is the only thing that matters, if you haven't been hacked, then you should know we're being hacked. This is theCUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier with Steven Sprague CEO of Rivetz, who's a security and an entrepreneur I've known for almost 20 years now he has been at this all through multiple ways of innovation, multiple security paradigm stacks, not new the problem, great time for you, Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So I've known you and knowing your father as well for almost 25 plus years, you have been at this in one form or another with security and the waves are different, I mean there's different the web wave there's different architectures I mean people call it internet 3.0 whatever they're just different evolutionary steps, now is the killer time because we're seeing the most action. You got web, internet, mobile, global, new economics, new money the stakes are higher it's not not just like some isolated box, you got cloud. This is the time to harvest the work you've been doing, give us an overview. >> Absolutely you know I've been at this my whole career, I started down this path in 1990. Doing digital rights management micro transactions and video games and was part of the formation that Trusted Computing group in the 2000s and helped shipped 1.4 billion PCs with hardware security on the motherboard of the PC that still out there today. Started with started Rivets in 2013 to really go after, how do we enable the hardware security and mobile devices? And just about instantaneously ran into the blockchain and at my first Bitcoin conference, which was the Miami Bitcoin conference about a half an hour into it, it dawned on me two things. One, we were talking a lot about crypto but nobody was talking about cybersecurity and there's a gap between those just because we talk crypto all the time doesn't mean that we know what we're doing in cyber and the other one that was true as, oh my God, I've been looking for this for the last 10 years, which is how do we enable the user to own their own keys? And I don't mean like single keys on each device. I mean, the root key that controls all the other keys on all their devices. This is a super interesting space, we're just the very beginning of it in some ways the Bitcoin side the sort of value or or money side is the demo, the real opportunity is, this is the infrastructure that's going to replace how we do normal enterprise computing. >> Yeah. >> And the end of PC computing, we're about to have a new paradigm, blockchain-- >> I agree with you as an infrastructure shift over because the efficiencies that are gained and the disruption around what's not efficient, whether it's venture capital or infrastructure, IoT, whatever the supply chain or the decentralized way is the way to make it efficient, so it's an opportunity. Every entrepreneur that I know that is licking their chops going, wow, I can come in here and and create value. The mainstream adoptions around this complexity around use to your point, and then the fear of being hacked the cybersecurity piece whether it's for money, or a a hostile actor. >> But think of it in a different way. Security, nobody cares about security, nobody buys security, nobody wants security, security is UI. So if I asked you what your favorite multi factor authentication experience, you think like fingerprints and all this kind of stuff, it's not true, the send button is your favorite one, dial the number and push then and it just works. It works everywhere in the world works every time you've taught mom how to use it and the kids how to use it. It's simple, so why, so we would never use like, dial the number and we're going to use AI and big data to determine whether your phone is in the right condition to complete the call. And then a message is going to come up and say, would you please breathe deeply and calm down, because you're clearly agitated, I can't complete your call for you at this time. (laughing) Like, you've never used that phone, so why are we going to use that for the rest of our enterprise? >> I just sent you a pin number on your phone that you can't use before you can make the call. Again, I agree, it should be under the wire. It should be transparent security should be native, always on. >> That's right. >> And that's what you're getting at, okay. In your opinion, where are we in the progress because again, I think this connects the dots for your career, what you've worked on the itch you've been scratching in security because you have the perfect storm, you have full mobility penetration, you have commerce on top of it, and you have full global connectedness those three things alone make a-- >> And we have decentralization, so the thing that's important in blockchain is it's important remember, while the data on a chain is immutable, we know we can seal inside a little envelope a message and sign it and we write it to a chain it never changes. What we don't know is whether the data written to the chain was intended so all the information on all the blockchains is fake news. It's important to understand that we, if we take a blockchain to court try and prove something, all we can prove with the data hasn't changed. I have absolutely no idea whether your private key was written on the bathroom wall or stored in Fort Knox. And so if you try and record something on chain, your defense is always ah somebody stole my private key. Or if I'm trying to defend that you didn't do it on chain, somebody stole his private key, so actually the date on the chain is fake. It's real it was signed by a private key, but we have no knowledge to the quality of the private key and if you told the blockchain community that we got to go get your Windows log files to see whether or not your key was compromised at the time and the windows log files are the way we secure all blockchains. We're not going to get there, so the problem is-- >> That's a roadblock for sure, no doubt. >> Yeah, so the problem is that blockchains, are decentralized therefore, they're censorship proof. All of network security is censorship, therefore, blockchain is network security proof. Oops. So everything we spent in the last trillion dollars in cyber security doesn't work on blockchain Unless I run private chains, all a private chain is running inside the enterprise security while using all Juniper firewalls to secure your chain. That's not what we're talking about, We're talking about a decentralized solution. >> So match the security for pro posture for the architecture that you're working on. >> So we are going to have to do for the first time something that's crazy, we're going to have to do security commerce, which is when we form an instruction 'cause blockchains aren't authentication either, this isn't about logging into a node, getting a web page and filling out a form, no this is about sending an instruction. So, a blockchain instruction, a nuclear launch code, an e-commerce transaction, an IoT instruction like turn the lights on to 50% are all the same thing, it's an instruction based paradigm so it's not only about protecting the key but also the protection of the instruction that tells the system what to do and so in order to do that, the device that creates the instruction has to be a known device. Today we run our whole world, all our critical infrastructure, everything on unknown compute. When you turn this machine on, you didn't check to see it wasn't run by the North Koreans and you can't tell. >> Yeah, they could be in there, they probably are. >> Absolutely, more so than you would want to know. >> So what whereas the answer on this so get to the, cut to the chase here in your opinion, as the people figure out okay, we have all this great hardware that was built for a certain generation, now I'm using it as mission critical in my life, it's integrated to my lifestyle with my watch, my computer, my phone, now my in house Siri, portal, Facebook thing. >> So we need to get away from Apple's embracing of the CompuServe model, where you have a mobile phone that is a terminal, when you log into apps and your identity is based on your login to your phone. We don't actually check to see if the phone is really your phone. And we need to move to the concept of mobile, where it's a device identity network where services are delivered, not based on the username and password, but based on the identity of the device and really, ultimately, we need to get to what looks like an IoT network, which is a device identity network with messaging as the primary protocol. So secure messages sent. Fundamentally, we need to demote the importance of user authentication and promote the importance of device identity, so that I have a known device and a known condition with known controls that is producing the instructions that are sent to the chain. Ideally, you'd like in every chain, a second hash. And that second hash represents a manifest of controls that were in place, so I checked to see I was in the building, I checked to see who's still an employee, I checked to see my devices working properly, I check to see the trust infrastructure in the hardware of my devices working properly, and that gives me a hash I can write that to chain with the same immutable transaction, now I can prove that John's device in this condition with these controls wrote this transaction. >> Authentication powered the last architecture blockchain to your point about being you know, you don't know what's on the data needs to have an identity model for the signatures. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. So some people like oh my god, but what if I lose my phone and the most important thing is you notice. If I steal your private keys you don't notice I still your phone like I just touch your phone. It makes you feel nervous, >> Yeah. (laughing) It's a very, but that's 100,000 years. >> I know when I leave my phone home I turn around soon as am three feet the driveway I'm like, okay, go back, get the phone. >> And so that's cyber security training it starts when you're 18 months old, when somebody gives you an important object you're not supposed to forget places like heaven forbid you remove the fuzzy rabbit from the three year old, you can lose an arm, right. So that model buying device, the good news is the trusted computing standards of the world have given us embedded hardware security in the chip sets as a standard capability in every ARM processor. Now in every Intel processor, we can turn these capabilities that have been deployed in these devices. We turn them on, provide an effective hardware based wallet for all of crypto. >> How does the hardware wallet work in your vision? Because I think most people generally and me included would say, look I love crypto but I'm busy got my four kids, two are in college, two or in high school and running around you're running around, bottom line is I got my key, my cold storage, I get keys everywhere, I forgot where I put my damn keys where's my key anyway I ended up writing and I post it. Who knows? >> I want to believe your keys are your collection of devices. So we've actually just done a recent relationship with Telefonica we showed two weeks ago, a dual Root of Trust handset, so half of your key is protected by the SIM architecture in your phone, half of your key is protected by the manufactured ARM processor in your, in your handset. So I have two separate routes of trust. I'm not trusting the carrier, I'm not trusting the manufacturer, they have to work in cooperation, the owner owns the keys, then I want to backup those keys. So why not, now that I have multiple routes of trust in my device, they can talk to my other devices, So we think of your household of devices as your key, not your single super phone. So every time I make a new wallet, you're right. You're running around, you didn't think about it, You don't want to write down 12 words, you're out at Starbucks, you shouldn't be writing the 12 words down on the surveillance camera at Starbucks. That would be a bad plan, Instead, you want your device to just communicate out to your other devices. So imagine in the future I lose my phone I can shut it off by calling my carrier and then I want to Make a new phone, maybe I've got to go like push a button in my Tesla push a button on my smart refrigerator. And my wife has to push a button or my girlfriend, or whatever the complications we all have. (laughing) And that's what allows me to recreate, not just my blockchain keys, but my Marriott keys, my car keys, my refrigerator keys, my these keys and we're going to have lots of keys for all this stuff. >> And the hardware is key in your opinion, got to have the hardware. >> Right, the reason why you have hardware is because, we can measure that the hardware hasn't changed so we can have a hardware Root of Trust, something that we know is anchored in silicon, in iron and then, or really in copper, and then from that we can build a stack that says we know this hasn't changed because if it's cast in the ground now we can build up from there each step and know that this measured environment is running properly. >> So people want be concerned, obviously Bloomberg had a story this week about China putting a mod chip on super micro boxes that's hardware. How do you talk to that, because I'm now saying, hey, I love the Root of Trust concept you guys are awesome, great job, but what about being hacked by someone else-- >> Well let's assume hacks continue on in time, I think the ultimate disinfectant in this is identity of the device, so give me a list of where 100% of those computers are. And are they in any critical systems that you have? So you're running DHS, and you've got 1.2 million servers across your network? Can you tell me 100% of the machines, that have that capability on them? Now that you know that model 45 had that. So we have an example for this VIN numbers in cars have been a great example of how we've improved the quality of cars, not that we aren't stupid humans and we build stuff that breaks or doesn't work and people die, we just want to know, that if he dies in his car that I don't want to drive the same car he drove without fixing whatever it is they're broken your car. >> So unique ID for the car, an asset. >> Yeah. And so tracking that, yep, we have it for lots of things. We don't have it for PCs, if you ask the average organization, please give me a list of the software that runs your corporation, they have no idea. >> Yeah, and the same thing with data to the GDPR thing, all these regulations, >> Right, because all, so GDPR is a great example of where now I need to prove I had controls in place in order to show that my data is properly-- >> They didn't know they had a server out there. >> I don't want to audit once a year, I want to check every time I do a transaction, was the person and employee did they have data rest in their machine, did they. So we can use the concepts of GDPR regulation to press this idea that I've provable controls at a transactional level for every instruction that's done. I want to know that I have known compute, if you had to write policy for the federal government, it's only known computers connected to sensitive networks and data. That doesn't require rocket science to understand. It's like, don't hook anonymous unknown computers you picked up out in the parking lot and tie them to the nuclear launch codes, that would be a bad plan. Like, let's start with at least machines we know and that are running software we know and that we've tested them so that we know they're running what we expect and they're working correctly, then let's use them for critical systems. So let's talk about the, and want to just finish up this segment on looking at what you're saying, which is a whole new operating model is coming really fast. The old model that's being operate is run by huge companies, Apple, Amazon, IT departments all around the world, governments, so there's going to be some resistance is going to have to be some change, that change is going to be disruptive. How do you see it playing out, you see people waking up going it's inevitable or you see a train wreck or collision. >> Now I think we have to create a transition. I spent a decade trying to create the train wreck and that didn't work very well, we shipped the technology and every PC. What we've done here is we're making it possible for you measure the integrity of a device in a mobile phone, and then you can hold keys in it. But I can apply policies or rules to those keys and those policies can talk to all of my old external systems. So I can ask all my network security stack, Where is this device, is this person an employee? Is my organization feeling good today, before I let you use the key. >> You bring program ability and state into-- >> Right, it's like you drag along the whole network security stack, and all their API controls and their SIEMs and let's hook Watson up and watch the whole network and apply that as a rule to a case. So now I can sit in Starbucks, and my device checks to see my organization's good, and then logs me into Gmail. I didn't have to tell Gmail to ask whether I was an employee, so I can have a mobile phone that says only log on if you're on the nuclear submarine and it'll work and I don't have to tell GitHub that check to see whether he's on a nuclear submarine. They just have to know that this two factor authentication is external, what's making that possible is that two factor authentication and all the services is fundamentally device registration, and as we mature that as the industry matures, those standards it provides the vehicle for all the services to incorporate a device component to the authentication strategy and then we can engage the robot to make that device smarter. >> Robot being the machine. >> Our device. >> Great to have you on, give the quick plug, what's going on Rivets real give us a quick. >> So Rivets is a fun company going after building these tools, we have a great partnership with Telefonica, we're extending it to other carriers as well. And our mission here is to bring the next billion people the blockchain by giving them a hardware based wallet for crypto, for IoT, for cloud in 100% of the mobile devices that are shipped and use the carriers as a mechanism to deliver that to us. >> You bring value that carries you also help the users make that usability peace secure. If you can pull that off, man I'd have a parade on Main Street for you. We need that. >> We desperately need this. We are so ready for our digital life to become simpler and safer for the user, And really for the services, it allows them to have more valuable data. So it's the combination of those two things, it's a win both for the consumer and for the services. >> Well, let's hope it can be a seamless transition rather than a train wreck collision. I'm John Furrier we here at talking security at Hoshocon, the inaugural blockchain secure, the first blockchain security conference am here with Steven Sprague CEO Rivets, hot, hot company in the space with many, many years experience. Time is ripe, right now the time is perfect for you. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, we're back with more after this short break. (electronic music)

(techy music) >> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018, brought to you by theCUBE. (techy music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome back. This is the live CUBE coverage here in Toronto, Ontario here in Canada for the Untraceable Blockchain Futurist Conference. This is day two of wall-to-wall CUBE coverage. We've got great presentations going on, live content here on theCUBE as well as in the sessions, great networking, but more important all the thought leaders in the industry around the world are coming together to try to set the standards and set up a great future for cryptocurrency and blockchain in general. Our next two guests are very special guests for theCUBE and we're excited to have them on, the Honorable Wayne Caines, Minister of National Security for the government of Bermuda, and Kevin Richards, concierge on the Fintech business development manager, part of the Bermuda Business Development Agency. Thank you guys for coming on, really appreciate the time. >> Thanks very much. >> Thank you for having us. >> Why this is so important is that we heard your presentation onstage, for the folks, they can catch it online when they film it and record it, but the Bermuda opportunity has really emerged as a shining light around the world, specifically in the United States. In California, where I live, Silicon Valley, you guys are now having great progress in hosting companies and being crypto-friendly. Take a minute to explain what's happening, what's the current situation, why Bermuda, why now, what's developing? >> This has all happened over the last eight months. We were looking in November of 2017 to go in the space. In January we went to the World Economic Forum in Davos in Switzerland. When we went to Davos in Switzerland something very interesting happened. People kept coming up to us, I was like the Hound of the Baskerville, or the Pied Piper if you please, and so, so many people were coming up to us finding out more information about Bermuda. We realized that our plan that we thought we could phase in over 18 months, that it had to be accelerated. So, whilst we were at the World Economic Forum in Davos we said to people, "Listen, if you want to change the world, "if you want to help Bermuda to grow, if you're serious," this is a Thursday, "Meet us in Bermuda on the Monday morning." On the Monday morning there are 14 different people in the room. We sat in the room, we talked about what we wanted the world to be, how could Bermuda be in place, what are the needs in this industry, and by the Wednesday we had a complete and total framework, and so we split up into industries. Number one was ICOs, we wanted to look at how to regulate the ICO market. Number two, we wanted to look at digital asset exchanges or cryptocurrencies or how do we regulate security tokens and utility tokens and what do exchanges look like, how do we do exchanges in Bermuda, and then we wanted to talk about education and setting up incubators. And so, come fast forward to July, August, we have an ICO bill in place that allows us to look at setting up ICOs in Bermuda. We wanted to focus on the legal and the regulatory framework, so this is a nascent space. A number of people are concerned about the dark actors, and so we wanted to set up a jurisdiction that traded on our international reputation. Now, remember for the last 60 years reinsurance, finance, captives, hedge funds, people in the financial services market have been coming to Bermuda because that's what we do well. We were trading on the reputation of our country, and so we couldn't do anything to jeopardize that. And so, when we put in place the ICO legislation we had consultants from all over the world, people that were bastions and beasts in industry, in the ICO industry and in the crypto world came to Bermuda and helped us to develop the legislation around setting up an ICO. So, we passed the ICO legislation. The next phase was regulating cryptocurrencies, regulating digital assets, and we set up a piece of legislation called the Digital Asset Business Act, and that just regulates the digital asset space exchanges, and the last piece we wanted to do was a banking piece, and this is the last and we believe the most significant piece. We were talking to people and they were not able to open up bank accounts and they were not able to do, so we said, "Listen, "the Bermuda banking environment is very strong." Our banking partners were like, "Listen, "we love what you guys are doing, "but based on our corresponding banking relationships "we don't want to do anything to jeopardize that space," but how could we tell people to come to Bermuda, set up your company, and they can't open bank accounts? And so, we looked at, we just recently passed creating a new banking license that allows people to set up their business in Bermuda and set up banking relationships and set up bank accounts. That simply has to receive the governor's Royal Assent. As you know, Bermuda's still a British pan-territory, and financial matters have to get the okay of the Queen, and so that is in the final stages, but we're excited, we're seeing an influx, excuse me, a deluge of people coming to Bermuda to set up their companies in Bermuda. >> So, the first two pieces are in place, you have the legislation... >> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm. >> You have the crypto piece, and now the banking's not yet, almost approved, right? >> It's there, it simply has to get the final sign-off, and we believe that it should take place within the next two weeks. So, by the time this goes to air and people see it we believe that piece will be in place. >> So, this is great news, so the historical perspective is you guys had a good reputation, you have things going on, now you added on a new piece not to compromise your existing relationships and build it on. What have you guys learned in the process, what did you discover, was it easy, was it hard, what are some of the learnings? >> What we've learnt is that KYC, know your customers, and the AML, anti-money laundering, and terrorist financing pieces, those are the critical pieces. People are looking in this space now for regulatory certainty, so when you're talking about people that are in the space that are doing ICOs of $500 million or exchanges that are becoming unicorns, a billion dollar entity in three months, they want a jurisdiction that has regulatory certainty. Not only do they want a jurisdiction with regulatory certainty, they want to open up the kimono. What has this country done in the past, what do they have to trade on? We're saying you can go to a number of countries in the world, but look at our reputation, what we're trading on, and so we wanted to create a space with regulatory certainty, and so we have a regulatory body in Bermuda called the Bermuda Monetary Authority, and they are an independent regulator that they penned the Digital Asset Business Act, and so the opportunity simply for people around the world saying, "Listen, we want to do an ICO, "we want to set up an exchange. "Where's a country that we can go to that has a solid reputation? Hold on, how many countries have law surrounding"-- >> Yeah. >> "The Digital Asset Business Act, how many ICO countries have laws. Guess what, Bermuda becomes a standout jurisdiction in that regard. >> Having a regulation signaling is really important, stability or comfort is one, but the one concern that we hear from entrepreneurs, including, you know, ourselves when we look at the market is service providers. You want to have enough service providers around the table so when I come in and domicile, say, in Bermuda you want to have the banking relationships, you want to have the fiduciary-- >> Yes. >> You want to have service providers, law firms and other people. >> Yes. >> How are you guys talking about that, is that already in place? How does that fit into the overall roadmap for your vision? >> I don't want to beat a horse (laughs) or beat a drum too much, that is what we do as a country. So, we have set up, whether it's a group of law firms and the Bermuda, excuse me, the Bermuda Monetary Authority, the Bermuda that's the register of companies that sets up the companies. We have Kevin, and Kevin will tell you about it, he leads our concierge team. So, it's one throat to choke, one person that needs, so when you come to really understand that the ease of business, a county that's business-friendly with a small country and with a small government it's about ease of reference. Kevin, tell us a little about the concierge team. >> It's like the Delaware of the glove, right? >> Absolutely. >> Come in, domicile, go and tell us how it works. >> I'll give you a little bit of background on what we do on the concierge side. So, one thing that we identified is that we want to make sure that we've got a structure and a very clearly defined roadmap for companies to follow so that process from when they first connect with the BDA in Bermuda to when they're incorporated and set up and moved to Bermuda to start running their business is a seamless process that has very clearly identifiable road marks of different criteria to get through. So, what I do as a concierge manager is I will identify who that company needs to connect with when they're on the ground in Bermuda, get those meetings set up for when they come down so that they have a very clearly mapped out day for their trip to Bermuda. So, they meet with the regulator, they meet with the government leaders, they meet with the folks who've put together legislation that, obviously you mentioned the service providers, so identifying who's the right law firm, corporate service provider, advisory firm on the ground in Bermuda, compliance company, and then making sure that depending on what that company wants to achieve out of their operation in Bermuda they've got an opportunity to connect with those partners on their first trip so that they can put that road map together for-- >> So, making it easy... >> Making it very easy to set up in Bermuda. >> So, walk me through, I want to come down, I want to do business-- >> Yeah. >> Like what I hear, what do I do? >> So, you send me an email and you say, "Listen, Wayne, we're looking at "doing an ICO launch in Bermuda. "I would like to meet with the regulator. "Can you put a couple law firms in place," in an email. I zip that over to Kevin or you go on our Fintech.bm website-- >> Yeah, I was going to say... >> Fintech.bm website, and Kevin literally organizes a meeting. So, when you come to Bermuda for your meeting you have a boardroom and all the key players will be in the boardroom. >> Got it. >> If you need somebody to pick you up at the airport, if you need a hotel, whatever you need from soup to nuts our team actually makes that available to you, so you're not running around trying to find different people to meet, everyone's there in the room. >> And the beauty of Bermuda is that, you know, the city of Hamilton's two square kilometers, so your ability to get a lot done in one day is, I think, second to nowhere else on the planet, and working with the BDA concierge team you're, you know, we connect with the client before they come down and make sure we identify what their needs are. >> The number one question I have to ask, and this is probably the most important for everyone, is do they have to wear Bermuda shorts? (laughs) >> When you come you tell us your size, you tell us what size and what color you want and we'll make sure, so the... I tell this story about the Bermuda shorts. The Bermuda shorts, Bermuda's always had to adapt and overcome. Bermuda, we have something called the Bermuda sloop and it's a sailing rig, and so we... The closest port to Bermuda is Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and we wanted to cut down the time of their voyage, so we created a sailing rig called the Bermuda rig or the Bermuda sloop. Over the years that has become the number one adopted rig on sailing boats. We've always had to adapt and become innovative. The Bermuda shorts were a way to adapt and to get through our very hot climate, and so if you look at just keep that in mind, the innovation of the Bermuda sloop and the Bermuda shorts. Now, this Fintech evolution is another step in that innovation and a way that we take what's going on in the world and adapt it to make it palatable for everyone. >> What's the brand promise for you guys when you look at when entrepreneurs out there and other major institutions, especially in the United States, again, Silicon Valley's one of the hottest issues around-- >> Yes. >> Startups for expansion, right now people are stalled, they don't know what to do, they hear Malta, they hear other things going on. What's the promise that you guys are making to the law firms and the people, entrepreneurs out there trying to establish and grow? >> The business proposition is this, you want a jurisdiction that is trading on years of solid regulation, a country and a government that understands business, how to be efficacious in business. When you come to Bermuda you are trading on a country that this is what we've done for a living. So, you don't have to worry about ethical government, is your money going to be safe. We have strong banking relationships, strong law firms, top tier law firms in Bermuda, but more importantly, we have legislation that is in place that allow you to have a secure environment with a clear regulatory framework. >> What should people look for as potentially might be gimmicks for other countries to promote that, you know, being the Delaware for the globe and domiciling, and what are some of the requirements? I mean, some have you've got to live there, you know, what are some of the things that are false promises that you hear from other potential areas that you guys see and don't have to require and put the pressure on someone? >> When you hear the people say, "We can turn your company around in the next day." That we don't require significant KYC and AML. Red flags immediately go up with the global regulatory bodies. We want when a person comes to Bermuda to know that we have set what we believe is called the Bermuda Standard. When you come to Bermuda you're going to have to jump through some legal and regulatory hoops. You can see regulation, the ICO regulation and the Digital Asset Business Act on BermudaLaws.bm. BermudaLaws.bm, and you can go through the legislation clause by clause to see if this meets your needs, how it will affect your business. It sets up clearly what the requirements are to be in Bermuda. >> What's the feedback from business, because you know, when you hear about certain things, that's why Delaware's so easy, easy to set up, source price all know how to do in a corporation, let's say in the United States-- >> We don't have the SEC handicaps that they have in America, going from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You're dealing with a colony that allows you to be in a domicile that all of the key players finances... We have a number of the key elements that are Bermuda. We're creating a biosphere that allows a person to be in a key space, and this is, you have first move as advantage in Bermuda. We have a number of things that we're working on, like the Estonia model of e-residency, which we will call EID, that creates a space that you are in Bermuda in a space that is, it's protected, it's governed. We believe that when companies set up in Bermuda they are getting the most secure, the strongest business reputation that a country could have. >> The other thing I would add, I'll just say, you know, quality, certainty, and community is what that brand represents. So, you know, you've got that historical quality of what Bermuda brings as a business jurisdiction, you have the certainty of the regulation and that pathway to setting your company up and incorporating in Bermuda, and then the community piece is something that we've been working on to make sure that any of the players that are coming to Bermuda and connecting with Bermuda and setting up there, they feel like they're really integrated into that whole community in Bermuda, whether it be from the government side, the private sector side. You can see it with the companies that have set up that are here today, you know, they really have embraced that Bermuda culture, the Bermuda shorts, and what we're really trying to do as a jurisdiction in the tech space. >> What can I expect if I domicile in Bermuda from a company perspective, what do I have to forecast? What's the budget, what do I got to do, what's my expectation? Allocate resources, what's going to be reporting, can you just give us some color commentary? >> So, with reference, it depends what you're trying to do, and so there will be different requirements for the ICO legislation. For the ICO legislation a key piece of the document actually is the whitepaper. Within the whitepaper you will settle what your scope of business is, what do you want to do, what you know, everything, everything that you require will be settled in your whitepaper. After the whitepaper is approved and if it is indeed successful, you go to the Bermuda Monetary Authority and they will outline what they require of you, and very shortly thereafter you will able to set up and do business in Bermuda. With reference to the digital asset exchanges, the Digital Asset Business Act, such a clear guideline, so you're going to need to have a key man in Bermuda, a key woman in Bermuda. >> Yeah. >> You're going to need to have a place of presence in Bermuda, so there are normal requirements-- >> There's levels of requirements based upon the scope. >> Absolutely. >> So, if you run an exchange it has to be like ghosting there. >> Yeah, yeah, you need boots on the ground. >> And that's why the AML and the KYC piece is so important. >> Yeah. Well, I'm super excited, I think this is a great progress and this has been a big uncertainty, you know, what does this signal. People have, you know, cognitive dissonance around some-- >> Yes. >> Of the decisions they're making, and I've seen entrepreneurs flip flop between Liechtenstein, Malta, Caymans. >> Right. >> You know, so this is a real concern and you guys want to be that place. >> Not only, we will say this, Bermuda is open for business, but remember, when you see the requirements that we have some companies won't meet the standard. We're not going to alter the standard to accommodate a business that might not be what we believe is best for Bermuda, and we believe that once people see the standard, the Bermuda Standard, it'll cascade down and we believe that high tides raises all boats. >> Yeah. >> We have a global standard, and if a company meets it we will be happy for them to set up and do business in Bermuda. >> Well, I got to say, it's looking certainly that leaders like Grant Fondo in Silicon Valley and others have heard good things. >> Yeah. >> How's been the reaction for some of the folks on the East Coast, in New York and around the United States and around the world? What has been some of the commentary, what's been the anecdotal feedback that you've heard? >> We're meeting three and four companies every day of the week. Our runway is full of Fintech companies coming to Bermuda, from... We have insurtech companies that are coming in Bermuda, people are coming to Bermuda for think tanks, to set up incubators and to do exploratory meetings, and so we're seeing a huge interest in Bermuda the likes have not been seen in the last 20 years in Bermuda. >> Well, it's been a pleasure chatting with you and thanks for sharing the update and congratulations. We'll keep in touch, we're following your progress from California, we'll follow up again. The Honorable Wayne Caines, the Minister of National Security of the government of Bermuda, and Kevin Richards, concierge taking care of business, making it easy for people. >> Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. >> We'll see, I'm going to come down, give me the demo. >> We're open for business and we're looking forward to seeing everybody. (laughs) >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Major developments happening in the blockchain, crypto space. We're starting to see formation clarity around, standards around traditional structures but not so traditional. It's not your grandfather's traditional model. This is what's great about blockchain and crypto. CUBE coverage here, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching, stay with us. More day two coverage after this short break. (techy music)

>> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018. Brought to you by theCUBE. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage here in Toronto, for the Untraceable event. Here in the industry, it's called Blockchain Futurist. It's where all the industry elite are getting together here in Canada, to talk about the future of blockchain, crypto, and everything. It's theCUBE's specific coverage. As we continue 2018, kicking off event coverage with our CUBE brand. But right now we've got two great guests from Start-up, and they're called Quantum EXchange and Bank, QuantEXchange. Manie Eagar, Executive Chairman. And, John Willock, who's the CEO. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So you guys got some hard news to talk about. >> We do. >> But, you guys are doing an exchange model, bringing something really cool to the market. >> Yep. >> Which, we need to kind of get this figured out. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing, the problem you're solving, and then we'll get to the news. Absolutely. So, I think the lot of people are doing exchanges. You see them coming all the time, and most of them don't really have any specific differentiation or value add. We are not like that at all. We have spent our careers as part of most of the team, in traditional financial services. And, we're coming from the securities exchange business to bring the learnings from NASDAQ, the learnings from the like of that sort to the Crypto Exchange space. And, to be able to facilitate not only a regulated exchange venue, but also one that is institutional grade in terms of tools and the client experience, as well as the trust factor with the platform itself. So, that's really what we're trying to get done with the Quantum Exchange that we're building right now. >> And how old's the company? How long you been around? When do you guys start? How funded are you? What's happening there? >> So, I'll refrain from discussing funding at this point. But, I will say we've started this year. I left the Toronto Stock Exchange specifically to pursue this in conjunction with Manny. And, we've been batting this idea around for the last couple of years. And, the market reached the stage in maturity and size, that we said now is the time to get going and do it. And, so far, fanfare has been fantastic. Reactions from people in the Crypto Ecosystem, people in the Securities Ecosystem, has been equally positive. >> Yeah. >> There's a strong desire to see something like this come to market. And, we're very excited to be able to launch. >> Before we get to the news, Manie, I want to ask you a question. One of the things that we've seen is two types of behavior. The other guy's got to lose for me to win, and then, or both parties can win. We're seeing trends where people are taking a posture against regulations. Oh, they're evil, they're causing all the problems. They kind of don't know what they're doing, kind of, they're evolving. Maturity levels are different based on countries. But, where the success is happening, like Gabriel with Bit. Okay, there's collaboration. Because the regulars actually want to do a good job most cases. They just can't get there fast enough. This is the new model. This is what people are looking at. This is the kind of solution ... >> Absolutely. >> A bridge between industry, and the slow but, yet want to change regulators. Your thoughts? >> Very, very good point. The good news is we're all talking to each other. I think there's dialogue at the moment, but it's not maybe as open as it should be. Because it's all day one. What I bring to the community, and have for the ... since I got engaged in launching the first Bitcoin ATM in the world, in Vancouver, part of that team. And, I think Anthony Bold from Bit is for an alliance. And, blockchain association in the block forum, which we'll announce tomorrow. 'Cause I worked for Blockhouse. I worked for Vodafone. I was involved in the Empasa project. And, I can see and understand what does it take for people to start using technologies. I think what everybody is hoping for is this golden moment. Like when the first iPhone arrived on the scene. >> Yeah. >> People queued around the block through the night to get ahold of that first device. We haven't had that moment yet. For Blockchain and Crypto. We've had the wild enthusiasm, which is all speculation as far as most of us are concerned. But, maturity is coming, these technology if Blockchain and Cryptocurrencies want to succeed, there needs to be another converging technology with what's already out there. The internet, your financial ecosystem, and so forth. >> Yep. >> In my view, there'll be a coming together. There'll be new models altogether. Incumbents will have to pick up the pace in terms of how they go about it. >> Yeah. >> But, we see the opportunity for ourselves, for Quantex. And the industry as a whole is where the convergence takes place, the dialogue becomes more mature, and open, and transparent. Regulators become aligned. At the moment, we hear of a lot of jurisdictions announcing this, announcing that. But, when you start investigating or assessing, it's different flavors, different cultures, different economies. >> Yeah. >> There's the Commonwealth Block. There's the North American Block. There's the Asian Block. Europe is a whole different ball of wax. >> Yeah, I agree with you and I just want to ... >> So, this is where it gets interesting . That's where we come into the boat. >> Absolutely. >> Well, I agree with you, I just want to make a point. During the dotcom bubble, during that internet wave, there was some over-speculation. But at the end of the day, the forcing function of reality was the growth of the online users was growing every day. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And, the demand and the commerce dollars were still real. Now, certainly there was an exuberance. Irrational, in some cases. But, it all ended up happening. I think here in this market, the forcing function is the reality that there's demand, and there's money, and there's impact. >> There is now, we now know that. >> This is coming. It's not like Doomsday. Well, it was fake. No, not really. >> No, we are still in the first inning of seeing what is actually coming out of all of this. I think last year's price speculation runoff obviously was set to decline at some point. But, there has been a long series of momentum coming out of that, where people have realized that this is something much more important and significant than what it looked like three years ago, perhaps. And, a lot of that talent is now coming to this space. Bringing, the capital, bringing the know-how, us included, to deliver something for the next generation of platform, tools, and ecosystem to really grow this massively. And, bring it much more to the mainstream. >> And, I think the idea of aligning with regulars, help them move faster. You mentioned adopt technology, but, still in the phase of deploying operational infrastructure. You mentioned some of the things, the projects you've worked on. Vodafone, that's cellular, that's towers, that's infrastructure. So, I think we're still in this hybrid model of, in parallel, capital formation, building companies, and then, just, we got to get the roads built. >> Well, and understand the posture that a lot of people are taking on. We need to decentralize, we need to open this thing up. But, at the end of the day, the consumer votes. You and I know if we don't have viewers, we don't have a channel. If we don't have users, people actually using the technology, not only investing, but actually using it. It aint going to happen. Decentralize, centralize to a hybrid. And, that's the part that we need to open ourselves. >> Let me ask you guys a question before we get to the news. This exciting news you get to share. How do you standardize something? Because, one common thread of all these major deflection points, at least, with the major cycles I've lived through, has been standards. >> Absolutely. But, it's not going to be your grandfather's standards.So, TCPIP was different. The OSI model is a different generation. The internet was different. Web social is different. What may happen may be different. So, but, standards play an important role. But, no one has clear visibility yet what will be standardized, what should be standardized. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? >> Well last year John comes in, and he's learned the world of standards at NASDAQ, and TMX, and elsewhere. >> That's true. >> Now, we need to bring it to this world. >> How do we scale operational lead to get a cohesive exchange that can scale and demure value? Where do the standards focus need to be? What should the emphasis ... where does the light get shined on, and where's the energy go to? >> I think, you know, you want to look at standards, think about something like this ETF debate that's been going on. Huge speculation about whether or not that's coming. I think a lot of people who are looking at that ETF debate, specifically, don't actually understand some of the economics and the mechanisms behind the scenes. So, for example, what is a fork? When you think about traditional securities, you got corporate actions like a stock split or dividend. A fork is an entirely different concept with entirely different results. Those are the sorts of things that need to be discussed, standardized, and brought to an industry cohesion to be able to successfully deal with some of these events as the market progresses. And, to bring some normalcy to some of this as well, especially if you want to bring institutions to the plate. And, I think that comes to one of the other initiatives that we're working on ... Which is the industry body, called block forum, which we're going to be discussing in a moment. That can really help be that joining voice >> Hold on, hold on a second. This is the news. >> behind everything. >> This is the news. You guys are announcing, let's get to the news. >> Okay. >> You're announcing a couple things. Start with what you were just talking about. You guys are announcing a forum. Can you explain? >> Correct, correct. So, we're launching, officially, to the remainder of the crowd here tomorrow, block forum. Which is an industry association that will be especially behind driving adult thinking behind all this, putting regulation into place, discussing commonalities around policy, around how to standardize, and how to really make all of this interoperable. And, I think that's the key word. If you have individual pillars of, islands of activity, that's not going to be the same as having a cohesive global solution. And, that's what we really want to drive. >> An exchange solution? >> Well, in our case in Quantex, absolutely. But, an exchange in the services we can offer is one part of the whole puzzle. There's a whole series of inter-connected affairs that have to work together. And, that's what block forum is going to drive, is this assembly of different connected parties who are all working for the greater benefit of the Prio ecosystem. >> Who is going to be involved in the forum? Who is the stakeholders? Who can join? Is it a membership? Is it a consortium? >> It is a membership. There will actually be a token that will have very interesting membership related tokenomics attached that we can disclose at a later date. And, that economic alignment between the parties who are staking effectively their interests in the certain topics that they want back or the certain efforts will be a completely unique model compared to what we've seen in the industry today, where generally speaking, it is a committee who drives something on behalf of members. This is really fundamental for all members, democratically from individuals all the way up to institutions, to be able to participate and voice their interests. >> So you will see governments as members. >> Yes, yes, absolutely. >> You will see industry leading stakeholders and practitioners. The whole idea of the body is not to create new policy or reinvent the wheel. We're getting policy, we're receiving regulation. So, how do we put this in practice? Where are the success stories? How can we show the industry as a whole? Governments across jurisdictions to align around their spacing. >> So a melting pot of people to get a conversation going. >> Right. >> To start shaping an agenda or just start talking? >> So, we're talking to governments at premier and cabinet level. We're talking to boardrooms of banks. We're talking to think of your top 40 leaders in blockchain and crypto. We're talking to all of them and engaging with them. >> And, what's the vision of the outcome that you can envision in your mind? What is that outcome for this group? What do you hope to accomplish? What is the end result, if you can kind of assume things go in a good way, what happens? >> I think this is a unifying voice for leadership in the industry to discuss what the outside, outside of crypto world that is, and really bridge that gap between those who are within and understand natively and those who need to be brought in to be able to interact with this and really grow all of this industry. >> And, promote the role models. >> And, exactly that. Exactly that. To bring the best to the front. And, really show that there is actually serious opportunity, serious business. This is not just a series of hackers or whatever nefarious activity these people casually may think the block chain industry is. This is something very serious and very real. And, we want to be a voice for that. >> Awesome. And, you guys had some other news on the fundraising front. >> Industry first. >> You guys are raising some money, you're doing a private sale, and new gear as much as you can, it's pretty invested, so, I think you can promote it. >> I will say with a caveat as you say, it's pertinent to investors only, and we have not completed our discussions with our legal counsel. Having said that, we are taking the model of a traditional securities exchange membership, seats on an exchange, which can be purchased, which have rights attached, which are a titled asset separately from equity of the exchange, for example, separately from a utility token as you would have seen with many other exchanges. This is something that we feel is a very unique model. We are very excited to be able to launch this, and come to market first with this concept. Which again, is blending the best of the old and new. We're taking tokenization, we're taking a concept that have existed in the previous markets and previous worlds, and blending them together for something that is somewhat unique and wholly new in this application. >> Well, I hope you guys raise a lot of money. We need more harmony between regulating and government entities to bring the whole world together. And, certainly from the money-making standpoint, what the liquidity and exchanges can provide as the world starts to understand where the groove swing is and where those swim lanes are, especially with security tokens. >> You bet, you bet. And, the success is going to be measured in ability to scale sustainably. And, we want to demonstrate that with this model. >> We need some leadership there. So, good luck. Best of luck. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you, thank you. >> We are here live in Toronto, Canada for the Blockchain Futurists Conference. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Describing the single millers, talking to the most important people, the hottest stories. Here are the most colorful people, people traveling around the world sharing that insights with you. Stay with us for more day coverage here. The first day of two day coverage of Blockchain Futurists. We'll be right back after this short break.

>> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's the theCUBE, covering Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit 2018. Brought to you by theCUBE. >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to CUBE's coverage in Toronto for the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit, part of the big event also happening for two days, Wednesday and Thursday, the Blockchain Futurist Conference, here in Canada. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante here. Next guest is the founder and CEO of DigitalBits.io as well as Fusechain and serial entrepreneur and also the mastermind behind this inaugural event. First time a cloud blockchain conference has come together, bringing the two communities together. Al, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming to Toronto, Canada. >> It's our pleasure. Certainly as you know, we love cloud. We cover all the big cloud shows. We're dominating that market in terms of coverage and access. And we just started covering blockchain in 2018 with theCUBE, although on SiliconANGLE since 2011 with the written word in journalism. But this is interesting. You are the brainchild behind this event, and I want you to explain why you came up with this event idea because this is the first time that you got two worlds coming together. You're bringing in the cloud DNA, and that can go back to like, classic networking and think big hosting providers, the Exodus and the Equinox of the world. These guys are the same guys who built YouTube's back end and Facebook. Large scale network guys with this new emerging blockchain world because there's some connections points, and it's super important, and no one's ever done that before. What's the motivation behind a cloud and blockchain summit? >> Well, if you think of the internet, all that data, all that traffic, substantial majority of it is flowing through data centers, infrastructure providers globally. And within many of those data centers you have cloud providers, whether it's cloud computing, SaaS, Software as a Service, cloud providers, you name it. And now we have upon us this emerging blockchain technology. Many are referring to it as Web3.0. And I'm obviously a big believer in that this is the next evolution of the internet. We got Internet1.0 in the 90's. We had Web2.0 with social sharing economy and so forth, and along the way, each step you had your first movers, your willing followers, and then the unwilling followed. It's been that powerful the last two occurrences that we saw with the evolution of the internet. Web3.0 is that next thing. First movers, willing followers, the unwilling. Every time you have this something very innovative, obviously there's a big engineering initially starts amongst, you know, a community of engineers, and then it starts to go mainstream. Obviously a lot happens in between conception and going mainstream. And if we look at the 90's, Linux played a substantial role in the acceleration of innovation. It really extracted, you know, it took a different approach to software, really leading open-source. >> It took down some proprietary incumbents - Unix. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And free and open-source software, but it still needed to be supported. Which version of Linux should enterprises embrace? And at that time, it was very important with what we saw emerge with things like Intel, IBM, Dell, HP, and so forth getting behind organizations like Red Hat and their version of Linux, now known as Red Hat Enterprise Linux. >> IBM put in a billion dollars into it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Steve Woz, yeah. >> So with regard to that, you know, it was all about the hardware validating, right? These trusted vendors to the enterprise. And them kind of validating a company, or endorsing a company, in effect, like Red Hat, really helped provide a guiding light to the enterprise. Now it's not about hardware, it's about the cloud, right? Cloud computing providers and so forth. And in that ecosystem, it's not just AWS. It's not just Microsoft. There are many data center providers that have built a cloud computing offering that are supporting substantial financial institutions, substantial organizations within healthcare space insurance, and many, many other industries. So they play a very important role in supporting an enterprise, whether implementation, integration, and consumption of technologies, including new and emerging technologies. And so as we have, sort of, before us, this emergence of blockchain, obviously having lived in the cloud and infrastructure community for a number of years with that last company I had founded, know a lot of the key stakeholders. And even though I'm all in on blockchain, you know, I pop in every now and then in that world. What I found was two different extremes. You have CTO's and even CEO's of cloud computing organizations, and others within those organizations, totally high "Get It" factor. And you had the other extreme, multi-billion dollar cloud computing organizations, you know, data center organizations, where again, the leadership is still trying to figure it out, in some respects, not fully paying attention yet. And I saw that this is definitely emerging. Again, you'll have first movers, willing followers, and the unwilling. They're all going to get there. But it hadn't gotten there yet. And so with regards to this event, I saw a huge opportunity to really put something out there, allow it to ultimately take a life of it's own. There's a new organizer that's going to be coming forward and driving the ship with this event. But ultimately, there needed to be a forum, not just here in North America, but in every corner of the world, the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit, providing this opportunity for that convergence, and for both communities to really share knowledge and accelerate, fill that gap. And I saw it's there. It is there. There's amazing things being spoken on stage as we sort of are sitting here, with leading innovators, and so forth, from both sides. There was an amazing keynote today by Anthony Di Iorio, one of the co-founders of Ethereum and founder and CEO of Decentral and Jaxx, really helping support the event today and making a contribution. His talk was phenomenal. That's kind of the thought behind it, and it's, you know, here we are. >> I want to pick up on something you said, for our audience, you know. I mean, for guys like you, Al, that are deep into it, you understand this very well. But you talked about Linux, and how, essentially, the Web was built on Linux. So if you were a Linux developer back in the day, and you wanted to "invest" in Linux, you didn't have a vehicle to do that. You could put your time in, you know? You could maybe join a company and maybe get some stock. But there was no way to directly invest in Linux. Well today, there is. With blockchain and cryptoeconomics, you actually can, whether it's tokenize your business or participate, you can buy tokens. And so it's a whole different incentive structure. And many in our audience are sort of new to this, kind of the unwilling, if you will. >> Yeah. >> And that's an amazing new way to create capital structures. >> And very powerful. I mean, prior to this tokenized revolution we're seeing here, it was a cool open-source project that as an engineer you wanted to be part of this, contribute your time, and quite often you would ask your employer to permit you to have 10%, 20% of your time to commit to these projects. Maybe you would even ask for that in your job interview. And you'd maybe get the thumbs up, you know? And so, your employer's, in effect, subsidizing your time to really contribute to projects and code that you're very passionate about. But if they got busy, economic cycles and what have you, and it's like, "You know what? We need you at 100% focus on your day job." All of a sudden, that community, that open-source community is losing perhaps a very valuable contributor, right? And there's really no way for that direct incentive from that project. And that's really what that is now. Projects can be created. You think of, you know, some blockchain's like an operating system, you now have an, you know, to use the Linux comparison, now let's say an operating system can have it's own incentive, a reward or compensation structure to really help attract engineers and other valuable contributors to not just give birth to a project, but help make it sustainable. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, eventually maybe you're quitting the day job because it's able to be free, open-source, and providing an enlightening self-interest. >> I'm getting some messages here, direct messages, listening to you talk. So I want to share them with you. One guy says, "Hey, Al. What's the deal with the different blockchains? How do I tell?" So I'm not an unwilling. I'm a wanna-believe. I'm not the front-end, but what do I pay attention to? And there's so many different chains. You got people promoting certain things. I don't know whose stats are real. You got two kids in a garage, >> Yeah. >> who just did an ICS. So the question is essentially what's the difference between all these chains? What do I have to look for? Is it latency? Who's solving these problems? What's the big deal, and how do I determine better chain from another chain? Are they all going to work together? >> Yeah. >> What's your thoughts? >> Things are moving incredibly fast right now. And it is difficult to keep up to speed. You know, maybe it was just bitcoin at one time and one chain to focus on. Then there was Ethereum and all these others. Now there's many, many more. So ultimately, it is about information, staying current with that information, doing your due diligence. But you really need to have a community that you're a part of, that you can, kind of, share in your evaluation and monitoring of what's new and emerging. >> So community's important. >> Very important, very important. Just say trusted advisors, trusted peers, and you kind of take a collective approach at this. Nonetheless, we're in this pioneering era, mass innovation happening. What's winning today, you know, may not necessarily be continuing to win tomorrow. But you really need to maintain a discipline, and take a peer approach to staying current. In terms of public chain, private chain, they're all going to play a role, and they are playing a role, in different use cases. There's clearly a use case for private chain within enterprise, within say, you know, trusted circle of supply chain participants. Maybe you want to bring some efficiencies to all that. >> So use case drives the chain. >> Yeah, absolutely. But public chain is a phenomenal phenomenon. Among other things that we hear a lot about it, it's given birth to the ICO. The new way of capital formation that is unbelievably awesome. The world has never seen anything like this, where. >> Explain that. Capital formation dynamic that you're referring to. >> Yeah, so the traditional way, whether it's in Silicon Valley or any other part of the world, you have an entrepreneur that maybe they haven't had a big exit where they can fund their own next venture on their own. You know. Smart intelligent people with a brilliant idea, and they're doing that friends and family route, right? The due diligence checklist isn't that long. It's like, you know what? Love my son. He's the smartest kid on the planet. You know, you give him a few dollars and a few other friends and family, this new emerging entrepreneur. And if there's evolution there, things are picking up traction and so forth, then maybe you're doing an angel round. And there's this sort of structured process that history's sort of define for us. And then from an angel round, you know, you have this early stage company emerging, and new milestones being reached, and then maybe there's a Series A venture capital round, and what have you. And then you have the, you know, the Series A, Series B, and so forth, right? The typical approach to things. A very regimented Silicon Valley has been a dominating force of the venture capital community, and that form of competition >> But the dynamics are different than the venture capital. >> Yeah, so that's the way that we've always, sort of, known, right? Many early stage companies, the process they go through. Many, many meetings behind closed doors, and so forth. >> Cloak and dagger, black box. >> Yeah, so concept of crowdsourcing, still beholden to the financial systems that're up there. How do you really foster community up there? And raise maybe a few million dollars? >> So what you're saying is is that it's easier to raise money now? Easier? >> It absolutely is. You have this new meeting of exchange where you have cryptocurrencies like Ether. And you're basically sharing your idea with the world, and all of a sudden, saying, "Hey, here's our token economics. We'd like to reach some capital." And then whether it's minutes, hours, or even weeks, you have capital coming to you from different corners of the world, and it's coming to you in seconds. Highly efficient. You have these universal currencies now emerging, and it's an amazing sensation, and it's a new form of capital formation, and with capital formation, you have innovation. So I believe that, you know, we're just going to continue to see an acceleration of innovation, globally happening, and not just in certain pockets of the world now, in many, many corners of the world. I mean what's happening in Asia's absolutely phenomenal in the blockchain space as well. It's not just interesting here in North America. In fact, in some respects even more interesting, depending on how you look at it. >> Describe what's happening in Asia. You guys talked about this last night in the fireside chat. >> Well, I mean some of the publicly available information is that you can just simply see, on many of the cryptocurrency exchanges out there, an insane amount of volume, more so than in any other corner of the world. And so you have a very active investor community up there, a trading community, token-buyer community, what have you. >> And where are the pockets? >> Very healthy. >> So it was China, and then things sort of shifted to Japan. >> Well, >> Where do you see the action? >> maybe where the centralized exchange in happening, but I think it's still a lot of the same people. It's not like it got shut down in a country, and those people just lost their desire. They just found an alternative means to continue to participate. >> Right. >> You know, South Korea, it's phenomenal. You have Hong Kong. You have Japan. You have Singapore, among many of the pockets. But then it's everywhere. I mean, you're meeting people from Vietnam, Thailand, India. They're all very active investor communities and utility token buyer communities. And it's very healthy. Yes, you have, you know, a correction every now and then in this market. But you have that with any sort of new, exciting innovation. But it continues to thrive up there. It's phenomenal. >> Yeah, you're seeing one of the main uses of bitcoin to buy alternative currencies. >> Yep. >> That's sucking huge amounts of volume. >> It's an easier currency. I mean, in a matter of seconds or minutes, you can have a currency go from a bedroom in Florida, you know, here in Toronto, to a project in Singapore, or vice versa, without going through bank. >> So again some more couple questions from the crowd. If you want to reach us, tweet us, either direct message or tweet @Furrier @DVellante. Happy to take your questions for the guest. But one says, "Do we buy now?" >> (laughs) >> Second was, "Do this side step the tariffs of the China, Japan, U.S. thing?" Obviously outside of the United States, we're the world power in the United States. But now that power is shifting. You see China and here in Canada, a lot of crypto-DNA here. So interesting. Your thoughts on buying? (chuckles) On the dip? Or crash? Or however you look at it? And then the international dynamic with China and Japan and others? >> So many are seeing it as a dip. I mean, the reality is, if this is new form of capital formation, it does share similar characteristics, nonetheless still to traditional or early-stage investing and venture capital, in many respects. Not every start-up succeeds. In fact, you know, over 90% traditionally don't make it. Even if they make it to a Series A round, they may not make it to a B round, right? And so, the fact that you have, some people kind of are referring to the Wild Wild West. I don't necessarily see it that way. It's just finding it's way, right? And it's going to get to a mature state. >> Well I think people look at the bubble, and they think Wild Wild West, but the interesting thing about it, you know, we talked about it off camera last night, around international is, and no one really knows what the STEEMs will be. This is going to be a completely different landscape than anything we've seen before, whether it's standards or execution. And I hear the argument all the time of "Oh, it's unregulated!" It's really the United States that's taking a more regulatory approach, you know, the SEC is essentially scaring straight everybody and saying, >> Well they're trying to figure it out. >> Well they're trying to figure it out, but also they've kind of slows things down, the process. But that being said, it might not have to be formally regulated. Because you mentioned Linux. The role of self-governing communities is a very interesting dynamic. No one's actually said and analyzed what a regulatory regime, globally, would look like, if you factor in, kind of, the open source concepts, with self governance because communities are very efficient, and we got money involved. >> Yeah. >> It can be even more efficient. That's called a marketplace. >> You know, people have disposable income, and they decide what they want to do with that disposable income. You go to a restaurant, you go buy some groceries, you invest, you maybe buy some commodities, right? And where we put that money, the value we had that we wish we could exchange for something else, some of it goes into some regulatory worlds and some doesn't. I want to go buy some you commodities at the grocery store. I mean, it's a free and open transaction. There's no KYC or AML per se and that happens. >> But food has to get to the supermart. My point is. >> Marketplaces don't require regulation. >> Exactly my point. That's my point. >> Or additional red tape, right? But where we put other capital deaths. So whether you're buying share certificate, early stage investing. There's SEC filings, perhaps. >> Who regulated Linux? >> Who regulated Linux? I mean-- >> (laughs) >> It was self governing. >> Benevolent dictatorship with Torvalds. >> But the capital formation was different in the Linux industry. >> Yeah. >> It was the more traditional path that you just described, and so those were-- >> But I guess what I'm saying is that, you know, have a token. Some token could represent a commodity. Some token could represent a security. So there needs to be that distinction and a framework of clarity so that we understand what needs to be regulated and going on that path. And so I think that's, kind of, part of finding it's way over the past 12 months or so is this distinction. Some countries were very quick to say, "Here's a framework.", like Switzerland. That clarity here is taking some time here in Canada and the U.S. >> Yeah, and I think they should let things foster and incubate a bit because you don't know the gestation period of real technology, and I think I'm cool with community-oriented governance Because people will lose a boatload of case; some will gain. But that'll all sort itself out. And with good community involvement, it'll happen faster. I just find that a better path. I mean, some people can't stay with that tension. They overreact. Some people can't handle the risk. But you got to see how it plays out at some level. >> You definitely do. But there's also an opportunity for self-governance. You know, you have-- There's the regional internet registries, right? So you have ARIN RIPE in Europe and so forth. You know, if you want an IP address and so forth, there's a self-governing body that defines policy and how these things are going to be deseminated here in North America. The government, kind of, sets off with that. >> The DNS system. >> You know, absolutely. This is valuable-- >> Yeah. You know, you have national security with internet, but how IP's are deseminated, it's self-regulated. So at the end of the day, if the community doesn't decide to say, "Hey, some of these things, well let's define self-governing bodies." And if they can play a great role in it all, fanastic. Otherwise, then maybe the government steps in" If that's the type of country it is where they like to engage. >> Al, everyone's reimagining new opportunities with blockchain and crypto. You've certainly got good venture with DigitalBits. We'll certainly have a conversation later here this week about that. I know you got to get back for a panel that you're going to go on now. So thanks for coming on. And congratulations on the inaugural Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit. Looking forward to talking more about it. So theCUBE live in Toronto for coverage of the Global Blockchain event here with cloud. And then tomorrow kicks off the big show here, the Blockchain Futurist, about 2,000 attendees. That's really going to be connecting the dots of the future. TheCube will be there as well. Stay with us for more live coverage after this break.

(uptempo orchestral music) >> Hello and welcome to a special exclusive conversation here in the studios of Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, your co-host and theCube co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. We have exclusive, breaking launch here from a Cube alumni Al Burgio, who's the founder and CEO of Fusechain, a hot start up going after the blockchain, a little bit of open source. This is a launch. This is new information coming out. You still (indistinct talking) for the first time talking about your project again Cube alumni. Welcome to the theCube conversation. >> Thank you for having me John. >> You're the founder and CEO of Fusechain. >> That's correct. >> So you're just in Miami, 5000 people at these blockchain conferences which are exploded the biggest wave. Crypto and Blockchain in tandem are creating a very attractive and intoxicating market. It's the biggest wave we've seen in all the alpha entrepreneurs going out there. Some scammers too are trying to get into this market. We've documented that on theCube. But it's the biggest wave we've seen in a long time. You're out there. Talk about what is Fusechain? What's the story? Gives us the update. >> Sure. So Fusechain is a blockchain technology company, really founded to support a new open source project that is also coming out of stealth mode called the digital bits project. It's focused on disrupting the coalition loyalty industry. What we refer to as let's say one dot of loyalty in rewards. We feel that that market is ripe for disruption. A lot of frictions, others I'm happy to talk about in that space and we feel that blockchain in a decentralized model with the right partners and coalition could change the game. >> So you've got a T-shirt for us. I appreciate it called digital bits. New open source project. What I like about what you're doing, first of all you got a great track record. You have a ton of start ups you've done in the past and again great exits and you always have a good eye for where there's disruption and certainly crypto is dislocating industries, not just disrupting. Radically changing the makeup so before I dig into that. I want to get into digital bit. It's a little bit open source. So you have an open source project combined with what you guys do, so it sounds like you're what Red Hat was for Linux. You're for digital bits, is that? >> That's right so we are. So Fusechain is focused on building applications that are interoperable with that blockchain to support enterprises which is merchants, retailers, hotels so forth that would be working with the digital bits project. And so we feel that there is an opportunity to monetize that building let's say SAS type models around these applications and supporting and helping make digital events very successful. >> So it's interesting, I was observing when I was in New York last fall and I walked into a funds conversation with a bunch of guys. And people were trying to grop where the action was and I raised my hand and said, you can tell a good deal by the ones that are going to take down and incumbent industry, not just the player. You're taking a similar approach which I like about what your deal is. What is it about your approach and what is the target and how are you going to attack that? >> Sure, sure. First and foremost, really focused on blockchain and what was important for us characteristics wise and we felt that it needed to rapid transaction in terms of nature. Seconds as opposed to blocks, let's say every 10 minutes like a bitcoin for example. Because we are focused ultimately let's say on the consumer space. So we first and foremost on how our approach to developing this protocol and supporting the digital bits project. From there it was what industry did we feel would be best suited for this and this is how we gravitate into the loyalty industry. There is already a learned behavior in loyalty. People look at points as let's say a form of currency. They know how to go join one earn and what have you. It's like human mining, if you will and so we wanted to fit let's blockchain technology loyalty as opposed to fitting loyalty into blockchain. The other thing that I liked in terms of us going in this direction was really looking at. There was a lot of different ICOs, blockchain projects out there and so forth. We're the first to market with this. We're the first to market with that, but what's the incumbent doing in corporate America? Let's say, they're probably sitting and waiting and there's nothing preventing them copycatting and doing the same when there's enough of an established market. What I liked about loyalty more specifically the coalition models. We didn't feel that with a decentralized model. Putting into the market a decentralized model that they could replicate that the same way, It's like if you look at Netflix and what they did to Blockbuster. Blockbuster could not pivot quite the same way. We feel that loyalty dot one, specifically the coalition programs, will have a challenges in adopting blockchain in a similar manner. And so we feel that for that reason what we're up to here with this plain venture it's going to be highly disruptive. >> Let's get to the business model after we talk a little bit about the actual tech and the products. So you have digit bits and I notice you guys have a trade mark on that going on. But it's going to be open source. So what is digital bits? Is that the coin? Is it a utility token? How does it work? What are you actually doing? >> So digital bits is the name of the open source project. It's the name of the blockchain protocol. It will be the name of the cryptocurrency, so all the name of that cryptocurrency to that blockchain once it's put in circulation. And the project itself, we will ultimately see that spun into a foundation so it's the name of all of the above in terms of what digital bits is. Fusechain is a contributor to that project and we obviously like what it stands for. We're building parallel management platforms and so forth. Others are free to do this as well and have begun to do so. That will help make that project successful. >> So in other words, it creates a code from digital bits and apply it but you're going to be a token in the project. >> Yeah, if you think of, use Red Hat as an example. So there was open source project out there, various Linux type projects back in the day and big enterprises wanted to take advantage of that. But who was going to support them doing that? So Red Hat obviously established a very successful market in doing that so in a similar manner. We want to support digital bits in a very big way. We're building applications that businesses are going to need so they don't have to go build them themselves, and it will bring those markets. >> Who are you targeting? You're targeting existing businesses that have loyalty. You're trying to take that business away from them. Isn't that new? What the-- >> So coalition loyalty industry is fairly well established. >> John: What does that mean coalition? >> Coalition is multi merchant so in the United States, a brand known as Punti, that happens to be owned by American Express, but you can go to Macy's earn Punti, ExxonMobil and so forth. Canada is very big market for this as well so you have air miles, major grocery chains. >> John: They're always expiring, I hate these programs. >> Well that's the other issue with them. So there's tremendous friction and frustration now with these programs that exists. We're looking to disrupt that as well and provide-- >> So how do they work with you? Give an example of the use case that (indistinct talking). >> Ultimately we feel that, from a coalition standpoint often times the merchant is paying a reoccurring fee to support that program. So let's say big grocery store or hotel or what have you and in order for the privilege of their customers to be able to earn let's say, while shopping online at their store or in that facility just for the privilege of their users to be able to earn, the merchant is having to pay the operator that program, before the consumer has done anything with those points and so it's a big cost to them and we basically just to quantify, it can be as much of an 80% savings verses what the merchant would have to pay the support. One dot to support this decentralized blockchain base solution. >> So you guys are a decentralized application or are you a decentralized platform or you an infrastructure protocol? How do you categorically define yourself? >> So digital bits is definitely an infrastructure protocol but focus specifically on loyalty rewards and so just to, it's really opened in that sense that various businesses can join and support this. In a number of different ways whether it's pre-existing products, platforms that they have. They want it to be inoperable or they simply want their users to be able to now earn this form of loyalty. And we have in the coming weeks, you'll see announcements from other brands, some let's say blue chipish and others up and coming early stage companies with doing loyalty in a different way, joining the digital bits project to take advantage of the tokenize economy. >> I like this Red Hat to Linux in metaphor because I think no one's actually seen that yet happen. I see a lot of (indistinct talking) happen certainly the (indistinct talking) a decentralized apps or de-apps as they are called is huge growth market. We see a big tsunami coming with de-apps, decentralized applications. So will I be writing decentralized apps on your platform infrastructure? Is that they're doing? How are they implementing in your mind the Fusechain and the digital bits? >> So I mean there's basic examples of the products in market already, let's say multi-coin wallets. If they wanted to list digital bits as another cryptocurrency that their app supports then they can support the project in that way. So there's a number of different ways that the developers are established. >> I can build my own wall. I could integrate it into a pre-existing coin wallet. So you're pretty flexible, you're agnostic on how to gets done. >> Exactly, exactly. And this is why ultimately digital bits will be spun into a foundation. >> It will establish some policies around this so it's not completely naked but some governance. >> It's always tricky, you got to be careful. >> Well, governance from the standpoint of I'm looking at it from the perspective of how merchants, the terms by which they would disseminate digital bits to their consumers. >> So some lightweight governance. Is it hardcore governance or lightweight? >> No, I would say lightweight. So it's making sure that there's no bad actors at least at the time of-- >> (indistinct talking) a non-profit apart of the Fusechain? >> No, no, non-profit. >> Okay, okay so let's get into some of your journey. I see entrepreneurial journeys are happening all the time. A lot of people are jumping into the ICO and our crypto blockchain as a start. A lot of my alpha friends are doing it. It's just like wow. This is a big trend. It's disruptive. >> Al: Oh highly. >> Where there's disruption, you're going to have entrepreneurs but also scammers. We'll get that in a second but talk about your journey. ICO, you got to get formed. Get a little form, it could be expensive. We've documented theCube with Goodwin, a law firm in the valley that's doing a lot of ICOs. It could be expensive. There's tax consequences so how are you looking as an entrepreneur? You have opportunity recognition, check. Now you got to put it together. Utility token, are you raising money, are you doing the ICO? Can you give us some details? >> So it's utility token. We are raising money Fusechain initially is focused on raising capital, let's call it the old fashioned way. So Fusechain itself is taking in equity investment not involving any cryptocurrency. >> So no token sales on that simply. >> Is to date but a digital bits itself will be partaking and raising capital for the project. >> With Fusechain's ICO or their own ICO? >> No, no, it will be the digital bits projects. >> So will the ICO go through Fusechain or will go through digital bits? >> It will go through digital bits. >> Okay so you got a utility so that involves a token sales. So you're going to do a private, that's equity for Fusechain and then a token sale for digital bits. >> Al: Correct. >> Okay, that's nice-- >> Call it the pre-presale in advance of it actually being widely disseminated. >> What is the utility of the platform because that's the how we test? >> Yeah, yeah so we're keeping it really simple to start. We feel that we'll be able to demonstrate other utilities with this project, but similar to other projects out there if you're familiar with Ripple and Stellar and so forth. Some basic utility, you need to have some of the coin to be able to send coin. And so we're keeping it relatively simple from that perspective. There's security benefits. >> So the utility you're going after at launch is token sharing. >> Correct. >> Okay, and the activity is loyalty based for the merchants? >> Yes, and consumers so ultimately, digital bits stands for all these sort things I've just mentioned integrated together in this decentralized model really focused on giving back to users. So first and foremost, users being consumers that use these programs and the merchants that have historically supported these types of programs. In addition to that, digital bits is also focused on giving back to society. More specifically aligning itself with charitable organization worldwide that the project itself will be able to give back to. >> You're the (indistinct talking) guy. Your last (indistinct talking) you successfully sold it and exit pairing and networking. One big global network now. So I want to get your perspectives on entrepreneurs and how you've been traveling. We tried to get you last week here on theCube to talk about you're project and getting out there now but you've seen a lot of the events you're out in the field, you're own in the trenches. What's the landscape like in crypto and blockchain? Can you offer any observations? Good, bad and ugly, what's it take? >> I was for example recently last week I attended the North American Bitcoin Blockchain conference down in Miami, nearly 5000 people. Tremendous buzz, great pedigree among speakers. Both domestic speakers worldwide and people I would say from all walks of life. A lot of people are interested in either in the space or very interested in the space and I don't have the numbers in terms what the attendance was last year at that conference. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's 10x-- >> Are these new in tech? Are they tech gurus? What's the makeup and profile of folks in here? >> Overstock.com CEO. One of the keynote speakers of this and obviously a very well established company heavy in blockchain with their subsidiary t0 as well as some of the up and comers. Great pedigree, more specifically associated with the blockchain space but really supporting a lot of these events and being great evangelists for all things blockchain. >> So I get your perspective again. You see many ways of innovation, we're talking before we came on camera. I've been saying and when we talk privately in the valley here and in other places that this is like a dot com bubble, but it's accelerated. Everyone's getting their surf boards and jumping on those big waves. Some think there will be a crash. I think they'll be a probably a reset. There's just too much action happening and again the dot com bubble. Everything actually happens. >> Al: Yeah. >> So a little anecdote there but the point is there's some scammers. >> Al: Yes. >> There's some bubble activity. How are you sorting through that noise? What should people look through? Because when people are like, "Well I'm skeptical. "You're riding a hype wave right now. "What's the real deal?" >> The reality is with anything super exciting, there's always scammers. You have to take traditional stocks. There's always the penny stock scammers let's say and so this is not necessarily something exclusive to blockchain tokens or what have you. We see this in the traditional capital market systems and equities that are out there today. I'd say that this is very much mid 90s internet in terms of equivalent. The benefit of blockchain is that the internet exists so social network and Facebook. The ability to get news out there, widely disseminated, The internet existed. That infrastructure is helping to support the rapid growth trend that we're seeing with blockchain. So I would say that it is a bigger phenomenon than the internet was in the 90, by virtue the internet now existing. >> I got to ask you so one of the things I always is that there's no value being created. It's really a mirage right? So this thing about blockchain is there's a lot of value creation opportunities. As an entrepreneur, you get to see that and certainly see it from the Fusechain and digital bits. If someone said to, "Al, this thing is a bunch of hype. "Where's the value?" Where's the value? Why is crypto and blockchain attracting all these entrepreneurs? Why is it so intoxicating? Why is it attracting all walks of life? What's the value creation opportunity? >> Put cryptocurrencies aside for a moment and just focus on blockchain as a technology and really what it stands for. It is truly revolutionary. This is something with capability to have distributed ledgers solving the double spend issue. All of these things that historically could not be done with the internet or other forms of technology. And so it's very powerful in terms of its applications in areas of let's say even supply chain and how businesses can have this trusted collaborative platform or technology where you don't have to trust any centralized corporation, other institution or what have you, and it just works. So that is the technology itself is highly powerful and it's already evident that it's touching a number of different industries. So outside of the cryptocurrencies, let's say craze. Blockchain is definitely here. It's here to stay and it's just going to continue-- >> That's a fundamental infrastructure shift. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, so let me give you the little snarky comment that get on Facebook all the time. "Ah John crypto, this blockchain. "Have you seen a distributed database before, lol?" That's some snarky comments. So the naysayers will be like, "It's just a distributed database ledger." And then some people will be like, "I just don't see the business case. "Why do people actually need blockchain?" What's your take on those two points? >> I think that, that's a great way to look at it. Can you solve that problem with just using regular database? And probably often times the answer is yes, so blockchain shouldn't necessarily be used for everything, but there is certain things that historically, and again-- >> (indistinct talking) is one. >> Exactly, yeah. >> (indistinct talking) attracts. >> Absolutely, and so there's a number of industries where having it be blockchain based is definitely better than dealing with distributed databases. >> I've been commenting. I'm pro-blockchain as you know. Pretty bias, people know that. However what I say to folks is look, there's a dynamic going on here that's revolutionary at the infrastructure level. I think that's true. That will play out and then I think immutability and then the decentralized nature of apps. It will be a whole another genre of software development whether it's media (indistinct talking) to software. But ultimately it's these communities, if you look at in the media business. I was just at Sundance. There's new artist coming on that have their own audiences. >> Al: Right. >> So those are crushing the elites. So you have a revolution where the common person or group of people could get together in an unstructured way, a decentralized way to take on elite or huge industry incombantants or industries themselves. That's a phenomenon. That's kind of nuance. >> Al: Absolutely. >> It's real. >> It's absolutely real. Think of open source traditionally. You needed your employer to sponsor you. Hey if work for you, can I spend 10% of my time on a open source project? The open source project itself never really had a mechanism to provide support form of remuneration. Now by tokenising and so forth these native currencies an idea can provide a potential for reward and we're seeing that happen, and so it no different than any other great idea. 90 plus % of start ups don't necessarily make it. 90 plus % of blockchain ideas may not make it but the reality is, a community with a great idea can kick off a project on their own and stand the test of time. >> Well Red Hat became popular from Linux which was a second tier citizen in an open source. Now it's tier one also open source is running things so I got to ask you a final question on the business model. How are you guys planning on making money? Is it from support in the open source projects specifically, more services on the coin side. Is it managing the coins? Do you have visibility yet into that model? >> Yes, so I would say yes to what you just said. So Fusechain will create shareholder value in a few different ways. One, obviously being one of the first supporters to the digital bit project. We obviously want to see that project wildly successful, coin appreciation and the asset appreciation that potential could occur there will create shareholder value for Fusechain. In addition to that, Fusechain is building applications that will be SAS like in model. We'll be able to derive a reoccurring revenue. (indistinct talking) models but we'll derive reoccurring revenues. >> For the ecosystem of saving the digital bits actually it evolves. >> Right, merchants, you can go build softwares yourself or here's a subscription based platform that you can use and we'll provide support as well. >> Having fun? >> I'm having a blast. It's the 90s all over again. >> It the twinkle of the eye. I got to say, it's super intoxicating. I'll take hit of that blockchain in next segment with you. Appreciate it, it's really awesome. Blockchain and crypto, really amazing revolution. We're doing our part to unpack it, analyze it and also look at the good deals out there. This is SiliconANGLE theCube here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Special exclusive to you conversation with Fusechain coming out, talking about their project for the first time digital bits with Al Burgio, the founder and CEO. Thanks for watching. (uptempo orchestral music)

(electronic music) >> Host: Live from Midtown Manhattan it's The Cube! Covering Big Data New York City 2017, brought to you by Silicon Angle Media, and its Ecosystem sponsors. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live, The Cube in New York City for Big Data NYC, this is our fifth year, doing our own event, not with O'Reilly or Cloud Era at Strata Data, which as Hadoop World, Strata Conference, Strata Hadoop, now called Strata Data, probably called Strata AI next year, we're The Cube every year, bringing you all the great data, and what's going on. Entrepreneurs, VCs, thought leaders, we interview them and bring that to you. I'm John Furrier with our next guest, Greg Sands, who's the managing director and founder of Costa Nova ventures in Palo Alto, started out as an entrepreneur himself, then single shingle out there, now he's a big VC firm on a third fund. >> On the third fund. >> Third fund. How much in that fund? >> 175 million dollar fund. >> So now you're a big firm now, congratulations, and really great to see your success. >> Thanks very much. I mean, we're still very much an early stage boutique focused on companies that change the way the world does business, but it is the case that we have a bigger team and a bigger fund, to go do the same thing. >> Well you've been great to work with, I've been following you, we've known each other for a while, watched you left Sir Hill and start Costanova, but what's interesting is that, I can kind of joke and kid you, the VC inside joke about being a big firm, because I know you want to be small, and like to be small, help entrepreneurs, that's your thing. But it's really not a big firm, it's a few partners, but a lot of people helping companies, that's your ethos, that's what you're all about at your firm. Take a minute to just share with the folks the kinds of things you do and how you get involved in companies, you're hands on, you roll up your sleeves. You get out of the way at the right time, you help when you can, share your ethos. >> Yeah, absolutely so the way we think of it is, combining the craft of old school venture capital, with a modern operating team, and so since most founder these days are product-oriented, our job is to think like product people, not think like investors. So we think like product people, we do product level analysis, we do customer discovery, we do, we go ride along on sales calls when we're making investment decisions. And then we do the things that great venture capitalists have done for years, and so for example, at Alatian, who I know has been on the show today, we were able to incubate them in our office for a year, I had many conversations with Sathien after he'd sold the first two or three customers. Okay, who's the next person we hire? Who isn't a founder? Who's going to go out and sell? What does that person look like? Do you go straight to a VP? Or do you hire an individual contributor? Do you hire someone for domain, or do you hire someone for talent? And that's the thing that we love doing. Now we've actually built out an operating team so marketing partner, Martino Alcenco, and Jim Wilson as a sales partner, to really help turn that into a program, so that they can, we can take these founders who find product market fit, and say, how do we help you build the right sales process and marketing process, sales team and marketing team, for your company, your customer, your product? >> Well it's interesting since you mention old school venture capital, I'll get into some of the dynamics that are going on in Silicon valley, but it's important to bring that forward, because now with cloud you can get to critical mass on the fly wheel, on economics, you can see the visibility faster now. >> Greg: Absolutely. >> So the game of the old school venture capitalist is all the same, how do you get to cruising altitude, whatever metaphor you want to use, the key was getting there, and sometimes it took a couple of rounds, but now you can get these companies with five million, maybe $10 million funding, they can have unit economics visibility, scales insight, then the scale game comes in, so that seems to be the secret trick right now in venture is, don't overspend, keep the valuation in range and allows you to look for multiple exits potentially, or growth. Talk about that dynamic, because this is like, I call it the hour glass. You get through the hour glass, everyone's down here, but if you can sneak through and get the visibility on the economics, then you grow quickly. >> Absolutely. I mean, it's exactly right an I haven't heard the hour glass metaphor before but I like it. You want to basically get through the narrows of product market fit and the beginnings of scalable sales and marketing. You don't need to know all the answers, but you can do that in a capital-efficient way, building really solid foundations for future explosive growth, look, everybody loves fast growth and big markets, and being grown into. But the number of people who basically don't build those foundations and then say, go big or go home! And they take a ton of money, and they go spend all the money, doing things that just fundamentally don't work, and they blow themselves up. >> Well this is the hourglass problem. You have, once you get through that unique economics, then you have true scale, and value will increase. Everybody wins there so it's about getting through that, and you can get through it fast with good mentoring, but here's the challenge that entrepreneurs fall into the trap. I call it the, I think I made it trap. And what happens is they think they're on the other side of the hourglass, but they still haven't even gone through the straight and narrow yet, and they don't know it. And what they do is they over fund and implode. That seems to be a major trap I see a lot of entrepreneurs fall into, while I got a 50 million pre on my B round, or some monster valuation, and they get way too much cash, and they're behaving as if they're scaling, and they haven't even nailed it yet. >> Well, I think that's right. So there's certainly, there are stages of product market fit, and so I think people hit that first stage, and they say, oh I've got it. And they try to explode out of the gates. And we, in fact I know one good example of somebody saying, hey, by the way, we're doing great in field sales, and our investors want us to go really fast, so we are going to go inside and we, my job was to hire 50 inside people, without ever having tried it. And so we always preach crawl, walk, run, right? Hire a couple, see how it works. Right, in a new channel. Or a new category, or an adjacent space, and I think that it's helpful to have an investor who has seen the whole picture to say, yeah, I know it looks like light at the end of the tunnel, but see how it's a relatively small dot? You still got to go a little farther, and then the other thing I say is, look, don't build your company to feed your venture capitalist ego. Right? People do these big rounds of big valuations, and the big dog investors say, go, go, go! But, you're the CEO. Your job is analyze the data. >> John: You can find during the day (laughs). >> And say, you know, given what we know, how fast should we go? Which investments should we make? And you've got to own that. And I think sometimes our job is just to be the pulling guard and clear space for the CEO to make good decisions. >> So you know I'm a big fan, so my bias is pretty much out there, love what you guys are doing. Tim Carr is a Pivot North doing the same thing. Really adding value, getting down and dirty, but the question that entrepreneurs always ask me and talk privately, not about you, but in general, I don't want the VC to get in the way. I want them, I don't want them to preach to me, I don't want too many know-it-alls on my board, I want added value, but again, I don't want the preaching, I don't want them to get in the way, 'cause that's the fear. I'm not saying the same about VCs in general, but that's kind of the mentality of an entrepreneur. I want someone who's going to help me, be in the boat with me, but not be in my way. How do you address that concern to the founders who think, not think like that, but might have a fear. >> Well, by the way, I think it's a legitimate fear, and I think it actually is uncorrelated with added value, right? I think the idea that the board has certain responsibilities, and management has certain responsibilities, is incredibly important. And I think, I can speak for myself in saying, I'm quite conscious of not crossing that line, I think you talk. >> John: You got to build a return, that's the thing. >> But ultimately I would say to an entrepreneur, I'd just say, hey look, call references. And by the way, here are 30 names and phone numbers, and call any one of them, because I think that people who are, so a venture capital know-it-all, in the board room, telling CEOs what to do, destroys value. It's sand in the gears, and it's bad for the company. >> Absolutely, I agree 100% >> And some of my, when I talk about being a pulling guard for the CEO, that's what I'm talking about, which is blocking people who are destructive. >> And rolling the block for a touchdown, kind of use the metaphor. Adding value, that's the key, and that's why I wanted to get that out there because most guys don't get that nuance, and entrepreneurs, especially the younger ones. So it's good and important. Okay, let's talk about culture, obviously in Silicon Valley, I get, reading this morning in the Wymo guy, and they're writing it, that's the Silicon Valley, that's not crazy, there's a lot of great people in Silicon Valley, you're one of them. The culture's certainly an innovative culture, there's been some things in the press, inclusion and diversity, obviously is super important. This whole brogrammer thing that's been kind of kicked around. How are you dealing with all that? Because, you know, this is a cultural shift, but I think it's being made out more than it really is, but there's still our core issues, your thoughts on the whole inclusion and diversity, and this whole brogrammer blowback thing. >> Yeah, well so I think, so first of all, really important issues, glad we're talking about them, and we all need to get better. And to me the question for us has been, what role do we play? And because I would say it is a relatively small subset of the tech industry, and the venture capital industry. At the same time the behavior of that has become public is appalling. It's appalling and totally unacceptable, and so the question is, okay, how can we be a part of the stand-up part of the ecosystem, and some of which is calling things out when we see them. Though frankly we work with and hang out with people and we don't see them that often, and then part of which is, how do we find a couple of ways to contribute meaningfully? So for example this summer we ran what we called the Costanova Access Fellowship, intentionally, trying to provide first opportunity and venture capital for people who traditionally haven't had as much access. We created an event in the spring called, Seat at the Table, really, particularly around women in the tech industry, and it went so well that we're running it in New York on October 19th, so if you're a woman in tech in New York, we'd love to see you then. And we're just trying to figure-- >> You're doing it in an authentic way though, you're not really doing it from a promotional standpoint. It's legit. >> Yeah, we're just trying to do, you know, pick off a couple of things that we can do, so that we can be on the side of the good guys. >> So I guess what you're saying is just have high integrity, and be part of the solution not part of the problem. >> That's right, and by the way, both of these initiatives were ones that were kicked off in late 2016, so it's not a reaction to things like binary capital, and the problems at uper, both of which are appalling. >> Self-awareness is critical. Let's get back to the nuts and bolts of the real reason why I wanted you to come on, one was to find out how much money you have to spend for the entrepreneurs that are watching. Give us the update on the last fund, so you got a new fund that you just closed, the new fund, fund three. You have your other funds that are still out there, and some funds reserved, which, what's the number amount, how much are you writing checks for? Give the whole thesis. >> Absoluteley. So we're an early stage investor, so we lead series A and seed financing companies that change the way the world does business, so up and down the stack, a business-facing software, data-driven applications. Machine-learning and AI driven applications. >> John: But the filter is changing the way the world works? >> The way, yes, but in particularly the way the world does business. You can think of it as a business-facing software stack. We're not social media investors, it's not what we know, it's not what we're good at. And it includes security and management, and the data stack and-- >> Joe: Enterprise and emerging tech. >> That's right. And the-- >> And every crazy idea in between. >> That's right. (laughs) Absolutely, and so we're participate in or leave seed financings as most typically are half a million to maybe one and a quarter, and we'll lead series A financing, small ones might be two or two and a half million dollars at the outer edge is probably a six million dollar check. We were just opening up in the next couple of days, a thousand square feet of incubation space at world headquarters at Palo Alto. >> John: Nice. >> So Alation, Acme Ticketing and Zen IQ are companies that we invested in. >> Joe: What location is this going to be at? >> That's, near the Fills in downtown Palo Alto, 164 staff, and those three companies are ones where we effectively invested at formation and incubated it for a year, we love doing that. >> At the hangout at Philsmore and get the data. And so you got some funds, what else do you have going on? 175 million? >> So one was a $100 million fund, and then fund two was $135 million fund, and the last investment of fund two which we announced about three weeks ago was called Roadster, so it's ecommerce enablement for the modern dealerships. So Omnichannel and Mobile First infrastructure for auto-dealers. We have already closed, and had the first board meeting for the first new investment of fund three, which isn't yet announced, but in the land of computer vision and deep learning, so a couple of the subjects that we care deeply about, and spend a lot of time thinking about. >> And the average check size for the A round again, seed and A, what do you know about the? The lowest and highest? >> The average for the seed is half a million to one and a quarter, and probably average for a series A is four or five. >> And you'll lead As. >> And we will lead As. >> Okay great. What's the coolest thing you're working on right now that gets you excited? It doesn't have to be a portfolio company, but the research you're doing, thing, tires you're kicking, in subjects, or domains? >> You know, so honestly, one of the great benefits of the venture capital business is that I get up and my neurons are firing right away every day. And I do think that for example, one of the things that we love is is all of the adulant infrastructure and so we've got our friends at Victor Ops that are in the middle of that space, and the thinking about how the modern programmer works, how everybody-- >> Joe: Is security on your radar? >> Security is very much on our radar, in fact, someone who you should have on your show is Asheesh Guptar, and Casey Ella, so she's just joined Bug Crowd as the CEO and Casey moves over to CTO, and the word Bug Bounty was just entered into the Oxford Dictionary for the first time last week, so that to me is the ultimate in category creation. So security and dev ops tools are among the things that we really like. >> And bounties will become the norm as more and more decentralized apps hit the scene. Are you doing anything on decentralized applications? I'm not saying Blockchain in particular, but Blockchain like apps, distributing computing you're well versed on. >> That's right, well we-- >> Blockchain will have an impact in your area. >> Blockchain will have an impact, we just spent an hour talking about it in the context our off site in Decosona Lodge in Pascadero, it felt like it was important that we go there. And digging into it. I think actually the edge computing is actually more actionable for us right now, given the things that we're, given the things that we're interested in, and we're doing and they, it is just fascinating how compute centralizes and then decentralizes, centralizes and then decentralizes again, and I do think that there are a set of things that are fascinating about what your process at the edge, and what you send back to the core. >> As Pet Gelson here said in the QU, if you're not out in front of that next wave, you're driftwood, a lot of big waves coming in, you've seen a lot of waves, you were part of one that changed the world, Netscape browser, or the business plan for that first project manager, congratulations. Now you're at a whole nother generation. You ready? (laughs) >> Absolutely, I'm totally ready, I'm ready to go. >> Greg Sands here in The Cube in New York City, part of Big Data NYC, more live coverage with The Cube after this short break, thanks for watching. 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