>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days, cloud storage, immutability, and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on it, has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is, oftentimes, data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats, this is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring, but object storage, historically, was seen as this low-cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard tradeoffs between cost and performance. That has changed, the ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parity with other storage formats, but cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes, my name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose-built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues, first up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi will then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi, and then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss School, let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO and Co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company, David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, nice to be here. >> Great to have you, so look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years, why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder Jeff Flowers and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disk drive was probably 500 gigabytes and now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even 100 terabyte drives coming down the road and, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disk drives is going to run out of steam because, even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new, highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it and they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab, designing and testing this new storage architecture and when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we can sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite. You know, when you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zetabytes or something like that and if you look at that as you know, the potential market size during that data, we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions and so I said, look, this is a great opportunity, if you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on-prem, if you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud, we're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter, and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches, but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes, but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like Veeam, Convo, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups, they're never going to pay a ransom. So, once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well, so that you can't do a full restore from your backups. And that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you, you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know, write once read many, and those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud, and it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff but, you know, the net result is if you store your backups in immutable buckets, in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time, so you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that, once that data is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it, or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty. It's obviously a big deal, I mean, especially for companies with the presence overseas, but what's really is any digital business these days, how should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws and if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in-country, you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore, and I've probably forgotten one or two, but the reason we do that is twofold; one is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency, and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos, and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in-country, so, you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in May of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws and we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and think it continues to evolve, we see judgments in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the U.S. and the elimination of third party cookies, what does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things of this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the U.S., Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues so it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world and this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi, where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world and we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia and so forth, you know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base and that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah, it's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David, thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations, what does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud and I think storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth, and it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local, and there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential, you know, the most analysts think that the full, all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range, whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud, like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month and so I think people are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow, that's like a six X more expensive in the clouds, more than six X, all right, thank you, David,-- >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business, you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE, a great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, keep it right there. ♪ Whoa ♪ ♪ Brenda in sales got an email ♪ ♪ Click here for a trip to Bombay ♪ ♪ It's not even called Bombay anymore ♪ ♪ But you clicked it anyway ♪ ♪ And now our data's been held hostage ♪ ♪ And now we're on sinking ship ♪ ♪ And a hacker's in our system ♪ ♪ Just 'cause Brenda wanted a trip ♪ ♪ She clicked on something stupid ♪ ♪ And our data's out of our control ♪ ♪ Into the hands of a hacker's ♪ ♪ And he's a giant asshole. ♪ ♪ He encrypted it in his basement ♪ ♪ He wants a million bucks for the key ♪ ♪ And I'm pretty sure he's 15 ♪ ♪ And still going through puberty ♪ ♪ I know you didn't mean to do us wrong ♪ ♪ But now I'm dealing with this all week long ♪ ♪ To make you all aware ♪ ♪ Of all this ransomware ♪ ♪ That is why I'm singing you this song ♪ ♪ C'mon ♪ ♪ Take it from me ♪ ♪ The director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince Nairobi ♪ ♪ 'Cuz he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ (gentle music) >> Joining me now is Drew Schlussel, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wasabi, hey Drew, good to see you again, thanks for coming back in theCUBE. >> Dave, great to be here, great to see you. >> All right, let's get into it. You know, Drew, prior to the pandemic, Zero Trust, just like kind of like digital transformation was sort of a buzzword and now it's become a real thing, almost a mandate, what's Wasabi's take on Zero Trust. >> So, absolutely right, it's been around a while and now people are paying attention, Wasabi's take is Zero Trust is a good thing. You know, there are too many places, right, where the bad guys are getting in. And, you know, I think of Zero Trust as kind of smashing laziness, right? It takes a little work, it takes some planning, but you know, done properly and using the right technologies, using the right vendors, the rewards are, of course tremendous, right? You can put to rest the fears of ransomware and having your systems compromised. >> Well, and we're going to talk about this, but there's a lot of process and thinking involved and, you know, design and your Zero Trust and you don't want to be wasting time messing with infrastructure, so we're going to talk about that, there's a lot of discussion in the industry, Drew, about immutability and air gaps, I'd like you to share Wasabi's point of view on these topics, how do you approach it and what makes Wasabi different? >> So, in terms of air gap and immutability, right, the beautiful thing about object storage, which is what we do all the time is that it makes it that much easier, right, to have a secure immutable copy of your data someplace that's easy to access and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to get your data back. You know, we're working with some of the best, you know, partners in the industry, you know, we're working with folks like, you know, Veeam, Commvault, Arc, Marquee, MSP360, all folks who understand that you need to have multiple copies of your data, you need to have a copy stored offsite, and that copy needs to be immutable and we can talk a little bit about what immutability is and what it really means. >> You know, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about Wasabi's solution because, sometimes people don't understand, you actually are a cloud, you're not building on other people's public clouds and this storage is the one use case where it actually makes sense to do that, tell us a little bit more about Wasabi's approach and your solution. >> Yeah, I appreciate that, so there's definitely some misconception, we are our own cloud storage service, we don't run on top of anybody else, right, it's our systems, it's our software deployed globally and we interoperate because we adhere to the S3 standard, we interoperate with practically hundreds of applications, primarily in this case, right, we're talking about backup and recovery applications and it's such a simple process, right? I mean, just about everybody who's anybody in this business protecting data has the ability now to access cloud storage and so we've made it really simple, in many cases, you'll see Wasabi as you know, listed in the primary set of available vendors and, you know, put in your private keys, make sure that your account is locked down properly using, let's say multifactor authentication, and you've got a great place to store copies of your data securely. >> I mean, we just heard from David Friend, if I did my math right, he was talking about, you know, 1/6 the cost per terabyte per month, maybe even a little better than that, how are you able to achieve such attractive economics? >> Yeah, so, you know, I can't remember how to translate my fractions into percentages, but I think we talk a lot about being 80%, right, less expensive than the hyperscalers. And you know, we talked about this at Vermont, right? There's some secret sauce there and you know, we take a different approach to how we utilize the raw capacity to the effective capacity and the fact is we're also not having to run, you know, a few hundred other services, right? We do storage, plain and simple, all day, all the time, so we don't have to worry about overhead to support, you know, up and coming other services that are perhaps, you know, going to be a loss leader, right? Customers love it, right, they see the fact that their data is growing 40, 80% year over year, they know they need to have some place to keep it secure, and, you know, folks are flocking to us in droves, in fact, we're seeing a tremendous amount of migration actually right now, multiple petabytes being brought to Wasabi because folks have figured out that they can't afford to keep going with their current hyperscaler vendor. >> And immutability is a feature of your product, right? What the feature called? Can you double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the term in S3 is Object Lock and what that means is your application will write an object to cloud storage, and it will define a retention period, let's say a week. And for that period, that object is immutable, untouchable, cannot be altered in any way, shape, or form, the application can't change it, the system administration can't change it, Wasabi can't change it, okay, it is truly carved in stone. And this is something that it's been around for a while, but you're seeing a huge uptick, right, in adoption and support for that feature by all the major vendors and I named off a few earlier and the best part is that with immutability comes some sense of, well, it comes with not just a sense of security, it is security. Right, when you have data that cannot be altered by anybody, even if the bad guys compromise your account, they steal your credentials, right, they can't take away the data and that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful, beautiful thing. >> And you look like an S3 bucket, is that right? >> Yeah, I mean, we're fully compatible with the S3 API, so if you're using S3 API based applications today, it's a very simple matter of just kind of redirecting where you want to store your data, beautiful thing about backup and recovery, right, that's probably the simplest application, simple being a relative term, as far as lift and shift, right? Because that just means for your next full, right, point that at Wasabi, retain your other fulls, you know, for whatever 30, 60, 90 days, and then once you've kind of made that transition from vine to vine, you know, you're often running with Wasabi. >> I talked to my open about the allure of object storage historically, you know, the simplicity of the get put syntax, but what about performance? Are you able to deliver performance that's comparable to other storage formats? >> Oh yeah, absolutely, and we've got the performance numbers on the site to back that up, but I forgot to answer something earlier, right, you said that immutability is a feature and I want to make it very clear that it is a feature but it's an API request. Okay, so when you're talking about gets and puts and so forth, you know, the comment you made earlier about being 80% more cost effective or 80% less expensive, you know, that API call, right, is typically something that the other folks charge for, right, and I think we used the metaphor earlier about the refrigerator, but I'll use a different metaphor today, right? You can think of cloud storage as a magical coffee cup, right? It gets as big as you want to store as much coffee as you want and the coffee's always warm, right? And when you want to take a sip, there's no charge, you want to, you know, pop the lid and see how much coffee is in there, no charge, and that's an important thing, because when you're talking about millions or billions of objects, and you want to get a list of those objects, or you want to get the status of the immutable settings for those objects, anywhere else it's going to cost you money to look at your data, with Wasabi, no additional charge and that's part of the thing that sets us apart. >> Excellent, so thank you for that. So, you mentioned some partners before, how do partners fit into the Wasabi story? Where do you stop? Where do they pick up? You know, what do they bring? Can you give us maybe, a paint a picture for us example, or two? >> Sure, so, again, we just do storage, right, that is our sole purpose in life is to, you know, to safely and securely store our customer's data. And so they're working with their application vendors, whether it's, you know, active archive, backup and recovery, IOT, surveillance, media and entertainment workflows, right, those systems already know how to manage the data, manage the metadata, they just need some place to keep the data that is being worked on, being stored and so forth. Right, so just like, you know, plugging in a flash drive on your laptop, right, you literally can plug in Wasabi as long as your applications support the API, getting started is incredibly easy, right, we offer a 30-day trial, one terabyte, and most folks find that within, you know, probably a few hours of their POC, right, it's giving them everything they need in terms of performance, in terms of accessibility, in terms of sovereignty, I'm guessing you talked to, you know, Dave Friend earlier about data sovereignty, right? We're global company, right, so there's got to be probably, you know, wherever you are in the world some place that will satisfy your sovereignty requirements, as well as your compliance requirements. >> Yeah, we did talk about sovereignty, Drew, this is really, what's interesting to me, I'm a bit of a industry historian, when I look back to the early days of cloud, I remember the large storage companies, you know, their CEOs would say, we're going to have an answer for the cloud and they would go out, and for instance, I know one bought competitor of Carbonite, and then couldn't figure out what to do with it, they couldn't figure out how to compete with the cloud in part, because they were afraid it was going to cannibalize their existing business, I think another part is because they just didn't have that imagination to develop an architecture that in a business model that could scale to see that you guys have done that is I love it because it brings competition, it brings innovation and it helps lower clients cost and solve really nagging problems. Like, you know, ransomware, of mutability and recovery, I'll give you the last word, Drew. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the on-prem vendors, they're not going to go away anytime soon, right, there's always going to be a need for, you know, incredibly low latency, high bandwidth, you know, but, you know, not all data's hot all the time and by hot, I mean, you know, extremely hot, you know, let's take, you know, real time analytics for, maybe facial recognition, right, that requires sub-millisecond type of processing. But once you've done that work, right, you want to store that data for a long, long time, and you're going to want to also tap back into it later, so, you know, other folks are telling you that, you know, you can go to these like, you know, cold glacial type of tiered storage, yeah, don't believe the hype, you're still going to pay way more for that than you would with just a Wasabi-like hot cloud storage system. And, you know, we don't compete with our partners, right? We compliment, you know, what they're bringing to market in terms of the software vendors, in terms of the hardware vendors, right, we're a beautiful component for that hybrid cloud architecture. And I think folks are gravitating towards that, I think the cloud is kind of hitting a new gear if you will, in terms of adoption and recognition for the security that they can achieve with it. >> All right, Drew, thank you for that, definitely we see the momentum, in a moment, Drew and I will be back to get the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information technology services at The Hotchkiss School, keep it right there. >> Hey, I'm Nate, and we wrote this song about ransomware to educate people, people like Brenda. >> Oh, God, I'm so sorry. We know you are, but Brenda, you're not alone, this hasn't just happened to you. >> No! ♪ Colonial Oil Pipeline had a guy ♪ ♪ who didn't change his password ♪ ♪ That sucks ♪ ♪ His password leaked, the data was breached ♪ ♪ And it cost his company 4 million bucks ♪ ♪ A fake update was sent to people ♪ ♪ Working for the meat company JBS ♪ ♪ That's pretty clever ♪ ♪ Instead of getting new features, they got hacked ♪ ♪ And had to pay the largest crypto ransom ever ♪ ♪ And 20 billion dollars, billion with a b ♪ ♪ Have been paid by companies in healthcare ♪ ♪ If you wonder buy your premium keeps going ♪ ♪ Up, up, up, up, up ♪ ♪ Now you're aware ♪ ♪ And now the hackers they are gettin' cocky ♪ ♪ When they lock your data ♪ ♪ You know, it has gotten so bad ♪ ♪ That they demand all of your money and it gets worse ♪ ♪ They go and the trouble with the Facebook ad ♪ ♪ Next time, something seems too good to be true ♪ ♪ Like a free trip to Asia! ♪ ♪ Just check first and I'll help before you ♪ ♪ Think before you click ♪ ♪ Don't get fooled by this ♪ ♪ Who isn't old enough to drive to school ♪ ♪ Take it from me, the director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince in Nairobi ♪ ♪ Because he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ >> It's a pretty sweet car. ♪ A kid without facial hair, who lives with his mom ♪ ♪ To learn more about this go to wasabi.com ♪ >> Hey, don't do that. ♪ Cause if we had Wasabi's immutability ♪ >> You going to ruin this for me! ♪ This fifteen-year-old wouldn't have on me ♪ (gentle music) >> Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information Technology Services at The Hotchkiss School, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut, hello, Kevin. >> Hello, it's nice to be here, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about The Hotchkiss School and your role. >> Sure, The Hotchkiss School is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role as the Director of Information Technology Services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >> Yeah, and you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens, what's the unique, you know, or if not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you? >> I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of IT security, IT in general sometimes, so, I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into. >> Because specifically you are potentially spread thin, underfunded, you got students, you got teachers, so there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >> Certainly, because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center, so, data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights and FERPA, some of our students are under 18, so, data privacy laws such as COPPA apply, HIPAA can apply, we have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition so, it's a unique place to be, again, we operate very much like a college would, right, we have all the trappings of a private college in terms of all the operations we do and that's what I love most about working in education is that it's all the industries combined in many ways. >> Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in Drew to the conversation so what are the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your data? >> Well, we take a defense in-depth approach, so we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses, we also keep it simple, you know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching , using multifactor authentication, and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >> Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >> Yeah, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what he's doing, going back to our prior conversation about Zero Trust, right, that defense in-depth approach is beautifully aligned, right, with the Zero Trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right, they need to make sure that the data that they're keeping, evidence, right, is secure and immutable, right, because that's evidence. >> Well, Kevin, paint a picture for us, if you would. So, you were primarily on-prem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and the kind of, I want to get to the before and the after Wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >> Sure, well, I came to The Hotchkiss School about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal, so again, not a lot of funding for IT in general, security, or infrastructure in general, so Nutanix was actually a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hotchkiss and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system that students would use, financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SaaS solutions coming in play, we had also taken some time to do some business continuity, planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue, I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that, so, as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud-based, we didn't really need as much of the on-premise compute and storage as we had, and it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AHV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well and it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small IT shops like ours. >> Yeah, AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor and so you migrated off of VMware avoiding the VTax avoidance, that's a common theme among Nutanix customers and now, did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider Wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >> We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, Wasabi became across our desks and it was such a low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month and then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time, it wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network, you know, some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on the internet that they could be stored as well. So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast, security wise, it has all the features of S3 compliance that works with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily and then there was no egress fees, we can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing as any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs, we need to know what we're going to spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for egress or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously, we need that, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >> So Kevin, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed, were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those concerns as an IT practitioner? >> Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing, there's lots of companies with funny names, I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history, understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from, and really looking into the technology and understanding that the value proposition, the ability to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology in which it lays down data. So, having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for, it may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's not cheap, you know, it's reliable, and that was really our concern. So we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Drew, explain the whole egress charge, we hear a lot about that, what do people need to know? >> First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, Dave, just like theCUBE, let's be very clear about that, second of all, egress charges, so, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get, every put, every list, everything, okay, it's part of their process, it's part of how they make money, it's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services, we don't do that. And I think, you know, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond what is the list price. In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then, right, their additional cost, the egress costs, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >> So, you used a little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation, so here's what I'm imagining, like I have a lot of stuff, right? And I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly, I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff, that's kind of the same thing here. >> Oh, that's a great metaphor, right? That storage locker, right? You know, can you imagine every time you want to open the door to that storage locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >> No, that would be annoying. >> Or, every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard, you have to pay a door opening fee, right, and then if you want to look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay, and it's ridiculous, it's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker, you've already paid the annual fee, probably, 'cause they gave you a discount on that, so why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what Wasabi does and I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody else. >> Okay, good, that's helpful, it helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin, I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and ransomware protection, for example? >> Yes, cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too, right, this is often the checking the box kind of activity, insurance companies require it, but we want to make it something that people want to do and want to engage with so, even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that, so it wasn't just about protecting our school data, it's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something do in all aspects of your life, especially now that the folks are working hybrid often working from home with equipment from the school, the stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home and so knowing how to protect that is important, so we definitely run those programs in a way that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >> So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until, of course, we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples, is that what you're talking about, about having fun? >> Yeah, I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories, you know, they stop as they run, so they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going, so, you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic, yeah, and that's what I think is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure you know the sender of the email, no, you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not? So, that's where I think the learning comes in. >> Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much, appreciate your time, Kevin, Drew, awesome having you in theCUBE. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thanks. >> Okay, in a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Announcer: Some things just don't make sense, like showing up a little too early for the big game. >> How early are we? >> Couple months. Popcorn? >> Announcer: On and off season, the Red Sox cover their bases with affordable, best in class cloud storage. >> These are pretty good seats. >> Hey, have you guys seen the line from the bathroom? >> Announcer: Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage, it just makes sense. >> You don't think they make these in left hand, do you? >> We learned today how a serial entrepreneur, along with his co-founder saw the opportunity to tap into the virtually limitless scale of the cloud and dramatically reduce the cost of storing data while at the same time, protecting against ransomware attacks and other data exposures with simple, fast storage, immutability, air gaps, and solid operational processes, let's not forget about that, okay? People and processes are critical and if you can point your people at more strategic initiatives and tasks rather than wrestling with infrastructure, you can accelerate your process redesign and support of digital transformations. Now, if you want to learn more about immutability and Object Block, click on the Wasabi resource button on this page, or go to wasabi.com/objectblock. Thanks for watching Secure Storage Hot Takes made possible by Wasabi. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, well, see you next time. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Hello. I'm Professor Toru Suzuki Cherif cardiovascular medicine on associate dean of the College of Life Sciences at the University of Leicester in the United Kingdom, where I'm also director of the Lester Life Sciences accelerator. I'm also honorary consultant cardiologist within our university hospitals. It's part of the national health system NHS Trust. Today, I'd like to talk to you about our Lester Clinical Data Science Initiative. Now brief background on Lester. It's university in hospitals. Lester is in the center of England. The national health system is divided depending on the countries. The United Kingdom, which is comprised of, uh, England, Scotland to the north, whales to the west and Northern Ireland is another part in a different island. But national health system of England is what will be predominantly be discussed. Today has a history of about 70 years now, owing to the fact that we're basically in the center of England. Although this is only about one hour north of London, we have a catchment of about 100 miles, which takes us from the eastern coast of England, bordering with Birmingham to the west north just south of Liverpool, Manchester and just south to the tip of London. We have one of the busiest national health system trust in the United Kingdom, with a catchment about 100 miles and one million patients a year. Our main hospital, the General Hospital, which is actually called the Royal Infirmary, which can has an accident and emergency, which means Emergency Department is that has one of the busiest emergency departments in the nation. I work at Glen Field Hospital, which is one of the main cardiovascular hospitals of the United Kingdom and Europe. Academically, the Medical School of the University of Leicester is ranked 20th in the world on Lee, behind Cambridge, Oxford Imperial College and University College London. For the UK, this is very research. Waited, uh, ranking is Therefore we are very research focused universities as well for the cardiovascular research groups, with it mainly within Glenn Field Hospital, we are ranked as the 29th Independent research institution in the world which places us. A Suffield waited within our group. As you can see those their top ranked this is regardless of cardiology, include institutes like the Broad Institute and Whitehead Institute. Mitt Welcome Trust Sanger, Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Kemble, Cold Spring Harbor and as a hospital we rank within ah in this field in a relatively competitive manner as well. Therefore, we're very research focused. Hospital is well now to give you the unique selling points of Leicester. We're we're the largest and busiest national health system trust in the United Kingdom, but we also have a very large and stable as well as ethnically diverse population. The population ranges often into three generations, which allows us to do a lot of cohort based studies which allows us for the primary and secondary care cohorts, lot of which are well characterized and focused on genomics. In the past. We also have a biomedical research center focusing on chronic diseases, which is funded by the National Institutes of Health Research, which funds clinical research the hospitals of United Kingdom on we also have a very rich regional life science cluster, including med techs and small and medium sized enterprises. Now for this, the bottom line is that I am the director of the letter site left Sciences accelerator, >>which is tasked with industrial engagement in the local national sectors but not excluding the international sectors as well. Broadly, we have academics and clinicians with interest in health care, which includes science and engineering as well as non clinical researchers. And prior to the cove it outbreak, the government announced the £450 million investment into our university hospitals, which I hope will be going forward now to give you a brief background on where the scientific strategy the United Kingdom lies. Three industrial strategy was brought out a za part of the process which involved exiting the European Union, and part of that was the life science sector deal. And among this, as you will see, there were four grand challenges that were put in place a I and data economy, future of mobility, clean growth and aging society and as a medical research institute. A lot of the focus that we have been transitioning with within my group are projects are focused on using data and analytics using artificial intelligence, but also understanding how chronic diseases evolved as part of the aging society, and therefore we will be able to address these grand challenges for the country. Additionally, the national health system also has its long term plans, which we align to. One of those is digitally enabled care and that this hope you're going mainstream over the next 10 years. And to do this, what is envision will be The clinicians will be able to access and interact with patient records and care plants wherever they are with ready access to decision support and artificial intelligence, and that this will enable predictive techniques, which include linking with clinical genomic as well as other data supports, such as image ing a new medical breakthroughs. There has been what's called the Topol Review that discusses the future of health care in the United Kingdom and preparing the health care workforce for the delivery of the digital future, which clearly discusses in the end that we would be using automated image interpretation. Is using artificial intelligence predictive analytics using artificial intelligence as mentioned in the long term plans. That is part of that. We will also be engaging natural language processing speech recognition. I'm reading the genome amusing. Genomic announced this as well. We are in what is called the Midland's. As I mentioned previously, the Midland's comprised the East Midlands, where we are as Lester, other places such as Nottingham. We're here. The West Midland involves Birmingham, and here is ah collective. We are the Midlands. Here we comprise what is called the Midlands engine on the Midland's engine focuses on transport, accelerating innovation, trading with the world as well as the ultra connected region. And therefore our work will also involve connectivity moving forward. And it's part of that. It's part of our health care plans. We hope to also enable total digital connectivity moving forward and that will allow us to embrace digital data as well as collectivity. These three key words will ah Linkous our health care systems for the future. Now, to give you a vision for the future of medicine vision that there will be a very complex data set that we will need to work on, which will involve genomics Phanom ICS image ing which will called, uh oh mix analysis. But this is just meaning that is, uh complex data sets that we need to work on. This will integrate with our clinical data Platforms are bioinformatics, and we'll also get real time information of physiology through interfaces and wearables. Important for this is that we have computing, uh, processes that will now allow this kind of complex data analysis in real time using artificial intelligence and machine learning based applications to allow visualization Analytics, which could be out, put it through various user interfaces to the clinician and others. One of the characteristics of the United Kingdom is that the NHS is that we embrace data and captured data from when most citizens have been born from the cradle toe when they die to the grave. And it's important that we were able to link this data up to understand the journey of that patient. Over time. When they come to hospital, which is secondary care data, we will get disease data when they go to their primary care general practitioner, we will be able to get early check up data is Paula's follow monitoring monitoring, but also social care data. If this could be linked, allow us to understand how aging and deterioration as well as frailty, uh, encompasses thes patients. And to do this, we have many, many numerous data sets available, including clinical letters, blood tests, more advanced tests, which is genetics and imaging, which we can possibly, um, integrate into a patient journey which will allow us to understand the digital journey of that patient. I have called this the digital twin patient cohort to do a digital simulation of patient health journeys using data integration and analytics. This is a technique that has often been used in industrial manufacturing to understand the maintenance and service points for hardware and instruments. But we would be using this to stratify predict diseases. This'll would also be monitored and refined, using wearables and other types of complex data analysis to allow for, in the end, preemptive intervention to allow paradigm shifting. How we undertake medicine at this time, which is more reactive rather than proactive as infrastructure we are presently working on putting together what's it called the Data Safe haven or trusted research environment? One which with in the clinical environment, the university hospitals and curated and data manner, which allows us to enable data mining off the databases or, I should say, the trusted research environment within the clinical environment. Hopefully, we will then be able to anonymous that to allow ah used by academics and possibly also, uh, partnering industry to do further data mining and tool development, which we could then further field test again using our real world data base of patients that will be continually, uh, updating in our system. In the cardiovascular group, we have what's called the bricks cohort, which means biomedical research. Informatics Center for Cardiovascular Science, which was done, started long time even before I joined, uh, in 2010 which has today almost captured about 10,000 patients arm or who come through to Glenn Field Hospital for various treatments or and even those who have not on. We asked for their consent to their blood for genetics, but also for blood tests, uh, genomics testing, but also image ing as well as other consent. Hable medical information s so far there about 10,000 patients and we've been trying to extract and curate their data accordingly. Again, a za reminder of what the strengths of Leicester are. We have one of the largest and busiest trust with the very large, uh, patient cohort Ah, focused dr at the university, which allows for chronic diseases such as heart disease. I just mentioned our efforts on heart disease, uh which are about 10,000 patients ongoing right now. But we would wish thio include further chronic diseases such as diabetes, respiratory diseases, renal disease and further to understand the multi modality between these diseases so that we can understand how they >>interact as well. Finally, I like to talk about the lesser life science accelerator as well. This is a new project that was funded by >>the U started this January for three years. I'm the director for this and all the groups within the College of Life Sciences that are involved with healthcare but also clinical work are involved. And through this we hope to support innovative industrial partnerships and collaborations in the region, a swells nationally and further on into internationally as well. I realized that today is a talked to um, or business and commercial oriented audience. And we would welcome interest from your companies and partners to come to Leicester toe work with us on, uh, clinical health care data and to drive our agenda forward for this so that we can enable innovative research but also product development in partnership with you moving forward. Thank you for your time.

>> Narrator: Live from London, England, it's theCUBE covering AWS summit London 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to XL London everybody, My name is Dave Velante and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is our one-day coverage of AWS summit, London. theCUBE will go up to the events we extract the signal of the noise and I have recruited a co-host Theresa Carlson who's a friend and vice president worldwide public sector at AWS and we have a really special segment for you today. Anna Sergeant is here. She's a computing teacher and Charlotte who's a student at Townley. Wait till you see what we have in store for you. Theresa, let's get it started. So first of all, welcome (mumbles). >> Well, and I'm so thrilled to be your co-host, I just wanna tell you that right now. >> That's a first for you, right? >> Yes, it is. >> I finally got one up on for you. >> Yeah, exactly, I get to be on theCUBE (mumbles). >> So here's the deal, so you have this GetIT program. Tell us what that's all about and then we'll get into it. >> Well you know, we talked about over the last few years just in general about skills. Skills development, how critical it is and important for every age and GetIT is really a continuation of what we're trying to do to create job skills around cloud computing at every age, especially in elementary and primary school years. So GetIT today, what you're going to see from both Charlotte and Anna is we did a competition, there was over 160 applicants and it got netted down to ten schools that came here today and then we had two finalists and then we deemed a winner and they're going to get support and help but also, all these schools are gonna get support and help but it's really about the experience of them learning how to utilize cloud computing in a real-world application that actually matters to them which you can also fight to kind of social responsibility which most of these young people really relate to because they want to do something that matters to them. Just tech for tech is not exciting but tech for good is very exciting and I think that's what you're gonna hear about here today. >> We love to talk about tech for good and Anna, you're at the heart of this so how did you get into this, how did you get this all started, tell us your story. >> Well, my head teacher is quite an innovative person and she's been in conversations with Amazon and Future Foundations and they came to the school with the idea last year and invited the school to be part of the pilot program and so the Amazon ambassadors delivered their presentation to the school in September and as a team in the computing department, we got together and said, well we think this is a great opportunity for girls in tech. So we actually rolled it out as an actual scheme of lessons so the whole year eight, so that's 224 year eight students got together. They all were divided into groups of their own choice and we gave them the outline or the brief and said you know, think of an app for good that would fulfill a social need in your community. So think about the community and prepare a pitch and we then set timelines and deadlines and helped them through the research and obviously spoke to Amazon, came to the London offices as well and spent some time with your colleagues in the London office and you know, and then basically helped the girls pitch their final idea. >> So Charlotte, you got this prompt essentially and then you took it from there. Tell us a little bit about yourself and then how this all came about and what you guys did with that prompt. >> And today is your birthday so happy birthday. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. So basically I'm 13 at the moment but we've been doing this project in year eight as Anna said and basically, we were given the idea to make an app and everyone was really excited initially, but we weren't too sure about what we wanted to make it on and we were lucky enough to have the choice to choose whatever topic we wanted to make it on and kind of decide what cause we wanted to help and the solution to help it with and then we were given loads of help with the Amazon ambassadors and they really were like really kinda generous with all their help. They came to visit us and they watched our presentations and it really gained our confidence because we presented to the class and in front of the teachers and Amazon ambassadors and it's been really lovely because we've been able to gain skills that we didn't have before in computing and it's gained our confidence, it's boosted it and we've just become much like more interested in STEM and computing. >> Charlotte, let me ask you, what was your application about and what inspired you for the application? >> So my app was called Positive Of Me and we based it off of a mental health and kind of having a more positive outlook on life and we decided to do that topic because we thought that it was really important to students to have a stress-free time in school rather than always feeling stressed and under the weather because they have a lot of work or they're under-organized and stuff like that so we believe that it was quite important to help people like that so our features included like a planner, a mood tracker and just other things to kind of keep you organized and happy throughout your school life. >> So fascinated by the adoption of this approach and were you always interested in STEM or was it something that, this catalyzed your interests in your colleagues. >> I was always interested in STEM and in Townley, they like promote it a lot and they're very interested in like, because it's an all-girls school. We promote females and like we try to make sure that girls are interested in all subjects no matter what and it's been quite nice but I believe that it kind of made me more interested in STEM with my classmates because we've had a fun experience. It's not just been doing computing, it's been having a fun experience. We've been designing our own thing that we're passionate about so it's been really lovely in that sense. >> Dave: So, please go ahead. >> Well, I was gonna ask you, how did you bring it together as a group. What were kind of the core components that you worked on to bring the app together and then have the final that you got here today with. >> So we kind of thought of the idea first about mental health, that was kind of our starting point and then we developed it to what features we can include in the app. We made a mind map saying whatever features we wanted, what topics we wanted to cover and then we thought about the target audiences and they really helped us think about this in the boot camp that they hosted. It was really helpful because Amazon ambassadors came to each kind of app and they helped us with what we could include and how to build on that idea. So that helped us include the target audiences, the ages that we wanted to target our app towards and it kind of helped us with that general theme and how many features we wanted to include. >> Because you had time pressures, right, so you have to make some trade-offs. So how did you make those trade-offs? You just talked to the potential recipients of the app or sort of brainstorm? >> We did a lot of surveys to what features people thought were the most important for our app and a lot of groups did that because it kind of, because there were a few different times that we needed to get it done by and every time we obviously had a time limit and so we needed to put the most important features in to our PowerPoints and our presentations and the prototypes and so people, we did surveys and people answered what features they thought were the most important to put in the app and then we implemented those before any other like more unnecessary ones. >> How did you organize your team? How many pizzas did they eat? >> Did you hear about that two pizza team, did Amazon talk to you about, Amazon Web Services, that if you had more people on your team that feeds two pizzas, that's too many 'cause that way you can move faster. >> We mainly decided to team because we got to choose like our friends to work with and obviously, we work better with the people who we're more comfortable around. So that was quite nice that we got to decide who we worked with but then the roles that we were given, we kind of just decided on what each person knew the most about, wanted to do research on and then from there, we kind of just carried on with the topics that we were initially started with. >> You told me something a while ago that really peaked my interest. You said you're an all-girl school and you almost had to reverse engineer your gender because it was all too pink. Can you talk about your thinking around a different kind of diversity. >> So basically we wanted to make the app like accept all the beliefs and stuff so that was our main focus with diversity and we didn't really realize initially that it was mainly quite girly, but then when we presented our initial presentation, obviously we got through the first round where we presented to the class but then we got some feedback from Miss and she really helped us telling us that you know, we want to make it unisex so that it's more approachable for all people and all students rather than just girls schools and then it would have more not purchases but it would have more audience. >> Yeah, better adoption but so, what did that involve? Was it colors, was it language, was it, what made it less girly? >> I mean, it was more colors and the whole theme of the app like the logo. We made it logo that was quite like not young, but quite young and girly a bit and it was mainly the colors though. We did like pink, which is, I mean it's traditionally seen as girly, pink, so we tried to make it, we searched up like unisex colors and it was more green, purple, blue, stuff like that so we implemented that into our app in the second round so that it was more unisex. >> Last time I interviewed you, I had my pink tie and pink shirt on. >> Yes, which I like, I think that was good. I've got my unisex on screen but one of the things that you did do that I really liked is you did the usability which you went out and you asked individuals what features would they like the most. I think that was really important and you can of course always do that with those boys and girls and figure out but that was really smart. So let me ask you another question. One of the things that we do find with girls and something I've been passionate about is they don't get into STEM or technology and they don't stay there. After going through this experience, one, do you think you might be more inclined to stay with technology and then I'd like to just know your opinion on how we can continue to forward this with girls after this experience, what else would you recommend? >> Yes, so as I said earlier, Townley promotes STEM massively. They have STEM days and everything so the girls at our school, we are really interested in it. This project has like really boosted my confidence and like my interest in STEM though because it's, as I said, it's made it more fun. It's not only just doing the computing work, it's made it a fun way to do it and you're working for, you're targeting towards an achievement at the end, to get the app made so everyone's trying really hard to get it done and that kind of gains your knowledge and then you learn all the new technology as you're going along so it's quite interesting. >> What are your thoughts on that Anna. I mean, we're always having this discussion on theCUBE. You look around the show, amazing show first of all, but there's a lot of men here. The line out the men's room is huge and so, because in a male-dominated industry, you look inside your own circles and your circles happen to be other men's so it's a challenge that we want to surface and be aware of. What more would your recommendations be to break those barriers? >> To do the programs like this, to actually go into schools and encourage young people because I think by encouraging all young people you know, you'll get the diversity and also the awareness. We're very subject driven in a way that our education system and actually a lot of the job roles out there we're in school, we're not aware of because we're busy teaching. So it's great to actually come in and we think about app developers and we think about testers and we think about programmers but there's all the other aspects as well which actually, unless industry comes into education and helps us show the students what the breadth of roles are out there you know, it's very easy for students to just go into a sort of like a very sort of set path. So by having programs like this coming into schools and having the industry come and talk to the students and inspire them is you know, a fantastic opportunity hence the reason why we decided to run in the whole year eight, the program >> And I've seen, like you saw today from all the groups but the kind of tech for good that the girls and the boys were able to actually decide on something that was meaningful to them and I've seen that a lot just around the world that when you go and talk to children about tech, you've got to connect the dots and I think you guys did that really well and what you were doing with your particular application but across the board the thing that we saw today which I think inspired them even more 'cause it was the thing that they were passionate about which teaches them along the way. >> Yes, yeah. >> So we love tech and I was introduced at age 12, the C prompt and learn basic. Kids today, you learn tech before you can speak you're you know, punching devices but so what was the tech behind what you were doing. Were you programming, were using cloud technologies. What was behind it? >> We mainly use more simple technology and most of the work was just making PowerPoint presentations and Word documents but obviously there were side things like we made the surveys on Word. We used Photoshop to make prototypes of the screens for the app and we learned a lot of technology at the bootcamp as well. We learned about the different kind of things we could use to make features of the app work and we learnt about obviously, Amazon were like the leaders of the program. >> You Learned about S3 storage, right. You learned about EC2, you learned about all the applications in AWS that you could build it because at the end as you build it, you'll use hopefully all those technologies is what we'll be helping you with. >> You know what I love about this story though is, and Teresa you know this, you can do almost anything with tech. Now sometimes it's too expensive or too complicated but the tech in many ways is the least important. It's more important to understand what the consumer wants, what the customer wants, what that experience is like, what the colors should be, right and then you can make the tech, apply the tech to solve that problem. >> 100%, and put all those tools together but I do hope that you learned what cloud computing was during your, because that was, I always kind of joke because one of the students at the beginning they use it but they don't always know what cloud computing is. So kind of learning the scalability and how, the ease and testing and just moving fast. So I think that's what you guys have done in a big way. From a teacher's point of view, are there other aspects that you think that should be done like either continued or done even better or faster that we're not getting to. >> This is definitely a step in the right direction. We are a bit more traditional because we introduce the students to Python. So they sort of start programming using Python and perhaps we should look more at cloud technology in greater detail in schools but we're kind of a little bit behind in terms of education in the way that we actually, and we need and we need to speed that up. >> And this is one of the big things that we're trying to do on the AWS side, is bring the new technologies into education because that is the highlight of what we see is there's using kind of older outdated technologies and getting them excited to understand how they learn with and utilize new technologies within AWS and a cloud platform because you can move faster, experiment, have quick failures and recoveries and the expenses you know a lot less expensive than you normally did. >> Well I've been around a long time. AWS changed the world and it changed it from a world where technology, especially information technology and enterprises was a world of no. We can't do that because it'll take too long, it's too expensive, no, no, no and what Amazon has done has sort of removed all that friction and turned it into a world yes you know, and builders and it's just amazing what's happening. You're the future and it's really such a pleasure having you both today. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> Anna and Charlotte and of course Teresa, thank you guys for being on theCUBE. >> It's an honor, I agree, it's an honor to co-host but to have you guys and hear your passion and excitement for what you're doing. So my advice, keep it up, don't give up, stick with technology and STEM, you will not regret it, it's a great career. >> And have fun, all right, thanks again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right and thank you for watching. Keep it right there, we'll be back with our next guest. We're live from the Excel center here at AWS summit London, you're watching theCUBE. (light electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from London, England, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit London 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Today, we're here at the AWS Summit live at the ExCel Center in London. I'm Susannah Streeter, and this is my cohost Dave Vellente, here today. Now, we've talked a lot about the benefits of Cloud and the opportunities, and also the challenges sometimes, for startups and other businesses. But, also, there has been massive growth of the use of Cloud services by public sector organizations. And our next two guests here on theCUBE today, really, this is your area of business isn't it? So, we have Johnny Hugill, who's from Public, but also Max Peterson, VP of Worldwide Public Sector, AWS. Thank you very much for coming on to talk to us. >> Thank you. >> Now it's really interesting, during the keynote speeches, I was really taken by one of the speeches from the Chief Digital Information Officer at the Ministry of Justice, Tom Read, and he says, "We don't innovate for professional advantage, we do it to take care of people." And, Johnny, this is what your business is about, isn't it? Trying to link up startups and public sector organizations, to ensure that more people are taken care of. >> Yeah, I mean, that's exactly right. I think what we've seen in sort of almost every other sector you can think of, is this big proliferation of startups, of new market entrant's of completely new companies, really kind of coming to dominate those markets. And we haven't quite seen as much of that as I would like to see in the public sector. So, what we're trying to do is help tech startups, help innovative new companies, to come in and ultimately to deliver better services for everyone. >> There is real concern, though, among traditional companies about this. For example, your local pharmacy concerned that a really big player is going to move in and take away what they do. How do you kind of bring them along and say, well actually, if you work with a startup, it could improve the way you do business and keep you in business. >> Totally. I think pharmacy is a really interesting example. Because, in the UK, we've seen a bunch of new digital-first pharmacies come in and completely transform how people can access their pharmacy. So, Echo is one example of a UK startup that, now, you can get door-to-door prescriptions, instead of having to go to your pharmacy, make appointments, you know, waste loads of time queuing. My view is that these organizations really have to kind of get up to speed with how things work in the wider digital economy. So, people have certain expectations for how services should be delivered, for how quickly they should be accessed, to be able to access things. I think government services are no different. That's pharmacies, that's schools, that's teaching, that's everything. >> We're here in London. How big is the UK in terms of the growth of your business? >> Max: Well, the UK has been a leader for a long time, so from the time that they undertook the government digital services business through the G Cloud, 11 iterations, with big ministries, like the UK MOJ that you heard, with big nonprofits, like Comic Relief, and everything in between, educational institutions, startups. We're very proud we've partnered with Public to help continue to encourage that kind of innovation in government technology. >> I think, when we last talked Max, you, John and I, I think we were in DC. >> I think it was. >> And you were helping us understand, look, this public sector is not just about DC. And you've got a number of activities. We interviewed several of theCUBE yesterday At AWS headquarters. One of the things we talked about was GDPR. We were having a conversation with a privacy expert earlier today. He said, you know, the big players really haven't, really weren't ready for GDPR. You made a point in DC last year, you said, day-one you guys were ready, end-to-end encryption, a number of other services. so, I wanted to circle back to you. >> Max: Sure. >> I said, okay, we gotta peel the onion. I gotta ask Max, put him on the spot. You guys really anticipated this, it's not like you were scrambling at the last minute. Is that fair to say, and I wonder, if, Johnny, if you could confirm or deny that. >> Well, I would tell you that at Amazon, we think security is job-zero. If we are not making sure that we are continuously raising the bar to improve customer security, security for small businesses, then we need to do a better job. A couple of examples: GDPR was a good one, where, two months before GDPR came into a lawful requirement, Amazon announced that we were GDPR compliant. So people could confidently build on top of Amazon. In the UK, early on in 2016, we delivered one of our advanced security services called AWS Shield, which gives everybody using the AWS Cloud in the UK and, in fact, around the world, automatic protection against DDoS. No additional cost. You get it by using the Cloud. Those are the types of security services that Amazon delivers, and probably one of the most important these days, when you're working with sensitive workloads, is encryption. On Amazon, it's check-the-box easy to implement encryption for your data on the fly or when it's at rest. >> So, I hear that a lot, about encryption, and how simple it is. You guys using encryption? Do you guys got it as part of your... >> So, we work with technology companies who want to work with government, so many of the companies we back are using encryption. As I'd say, some of the, sort of, particularly in policing and defense, and some of the more sensitive areas of the public sector, this stuff is really, really crucial. And you simply can't, kind of, get into government without being GDPR compliant, and without having all of the SAP security essentials. A lot of the companies we've backed, are using AWS Cloud, have gone on to win public sector business, so, in that sense, I'm sure everything's E-checked. >> Are there any special considerations, with regard to encryption, things like, out-of-scope requirements that I should think about as a customer, or is it really as simple as Max is saying, click a button and check a box and don't even worry about it, it's all taken care of. What's your advice to people on encryption, is it just encrypt everything? >> Yeah. >> Are there performance considerations or...? >> I mean, again, it totally depends on the scale of the contract, of the requirements that your kind of going off of. For big major contracts with Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Defense, there are a number of different performance, kind of requirements, that you need to consider. But, in general, I think, yeah, it's pretty quite straightforward. >> Yes, kind of a no-brainer. >> I think the answer is encrypt everything, everywhere, all the time. And that also means on premise, it also means on your devices, right? I mean it needs to be just the standard approach that people take to data protection these days. And, unfortunately, for many organizations internally, it's hard, and so that's why people are moving to Amazon so that they get that security built in. It actually is the number one reason why people are moving to AWS today. They want the built-in security and then, after that, they want speed and innovation. And there was a really interesting statistic today at the keynote. Did you hear that LSE, London School of Economics, just completed a study and they showed that 95% of all startups that happen today would not happen if they had to depend on legacy infrastructure, because it was hard and expensive, and that's, candidly, why being a startup in today's Cloud-based world, is a much better value proposition. You can focus on the problem rather than all of these important but complicated factors like encryption. >> The other thing there, the London School of Economics study showed is the productivity gains for those companies that use Cloud. Now, there haven't been obvious productivity gains as a result of technology across the board. We're starting to finally see the uptick. Remember back in the PC days, you could see productivity, you could see upticks everywhere except in productivity, and then all of a sudden it shot up. And we've been predicting, for a couple of years now, you're going to start to see it, Cloud being one of the reasons, other new technologies, and so that was another key finding of that study that I found intersting. >> Well, Sainsbury was up on the stage today again, and what they have now found, right, was they have found a 60% to 70% improvement in productivity. That was their number up on the stage. >> Interesting, you're talking about kind of legacy companies. We've got Ministry of Justice, in fact there was a bit of a battle wasn't there? Yeah, well we've been balanced since 1170. (laughter) >> That was hilarious wasn't it? >> Sainsbury's only 150 years old. >> MOJ got up and said, "Well, in this battle of historical significance, our mission started in 1178. (laugher) >> But it's interesting to talk about those, but really, your bread and butter, Johnny Hugill, is the startups, isn't it, trying to spot talent out there and think, who could I partner these guys up with. >> Yeah, totally right. A really important thing to any organization that is trying to innovate today can do is to market horizon scanning, really understand what is out there, what the art of the possible looks like, what the new technologies that are going to change the game look like, what these companies are actually really capable of, where their sweet spot of innovation is. >> Susannah: And they might not know that themselves. >> But it's a really difficult thing to know, especially if you think about what the kind of day-to-day job of government is, which is really running the country, right? It's pretty difficult to ask them, by the way guys, you also need to really understand what the prospects of AI startups are looking like across the country, or across the world. You need to understand who the kind of BotChain innovators are. It's a big challenge, and it's something that we are really trying to help them along the way. As you said, a lot of that is partnering with bigger companies, and kind of forming the right ecosystems of smaller companies, large companies that can help them scale, and kind of taking government on that journey along with them. >> Well, and the pace of change is another challenge. Six months in this business now is an eternity it seems like. I remember crypto was so hot a year ago, I mean I'm a fan of a lot of the underlying technologies. It was interesting to see how Amazon dealt with that. You asked a lot of questions, like what do you really need to do this, you guys came up with a couple of solutions there, but, keeping up with the pace of change is one of the, I would think, one of the key values that you provide. >> It's really a challenge, and I think now, in infant tech, 15% of the financial revenue in the UK has come from startups founded in the last five years, right? So a big legacy market as important as financial services, has just been completely turned on its head, by Revolut, by Monzo, by all these new guys. And in government we are going to see the same thing at some point. >> Dave: I'd observe that in financial services those are good examples, but the industry still hasn't been disrupted yet. Healthcare still hasn't been disrupted. They're both ripe for disruptions and it's happening. >> Max: Yeah, but I think if you look at those, that's part of what Johnny was saying. Some of these early industries, like finance, have maybe been the initial disrupters, but I do believe that there is a wave of opportunity and disruption coming in this whole gov-tech space. One of them recently was at Zuna. Zuna came in and acquired a contract with UK government that completely upended an old way of doing job search. They had a better mousetrap. And, fortunately, in this case, government recognized it and they used them. >> [Johnny} Yeah, I mean, I would say that was a really momentous thing. The most used website in the entire UK Government, which is the kind of find-a-job search site. As Zuna came along, replaced an incumbent supplier who'd been doing it for years, probably quite badly, came along with their new AI-driven platform, using AWS Cloud and are now just delivering a service that everyone prefers. >> Dave: I saw NHS has announced, what, a half-billion pound almost, transformation project, modernization. And when you peel the onion, you see a lot of startups. Behind the startups, you see a lot of Cloud going on because the Cloud attracts startups, startups are where the innovation is, and if you're going to modernize and spend a half-billion pounds, you better look to the innovation engine. >> Yeah, one of the things about the Cloud computing and one of the things about government policy that's critical, is that it actually encourages that kind of innovation. Because a lot of small companies are the source of new ideas, but, procurement sometimes gets in the way. One of the things that we think, in fact, has worked well is the UK G Cloud contract, where on the UK G Cloud, over 90% of the suppliers on the G Cloud contract are in fact small and medium enterprises, and where 45% of the sales since inception on G Cloud have actually gone to SMEs. >> So it's really transformative. >> yeah. >> Well thank you very much for talking to us about this really fascinating space. I really appreciate it Max Peterson and Johnny Hugill. Thank you for joining us on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Great talk. >> That's all from us for now from the Excel Center AWS Summit here in London.

>> Live, from Las Vegas! It's theCube! Covering VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCube's live coverage in Las Vegas for VMworld 2018, it's theCube. We got two sets, 24 interviews per day, 94 interviews total. Next three days, we're in day two of three days coverage. It's our ninth year of covering VMworld. It's been great. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, next guest, Cube alumni, number one in the leading boards right now, Sanjay Poonen did a great job today on stage, keynote COO for VMware. Great to have you back. Thanks for coming on. >> John and Dave, you're always so kind to me, but I didn't realize you've been doing this nine years. >> This is our ninth year. >> That's half the life of VMware, awesome. Unreal. Congratulations. >> We know all the stories, all the hidden, nevermind, let's talk about your special day today. You had a really, so far, an amazing day, you were headlining the key note with a very special guest, and you did a great job. I want you to tell the story, who was on, what was the story about, how did this come about? Tech for good, a big theme in this conference has really been getting a lot of praise and a lot of great feedback. Take us through what happened today. >> Well listen, I think what we've been trying to do at VMware is really elevate our story and our vision. Elevate our partnerships, you've covered a lot of the narrative of what we've done with Andy Jessie. We felt this year, we usually have two 90 minute sessions, Day One, Day Two, and it's filled with content. We're technical company, product. We figured why don't we take 45 minutes out of the 180 minutes total and inspire people. With somebody who's had an impact on the world. And when we brainstormed, we had a lot of names suggested, I think there was a list of 10 or 15 and Malala stood out, she never spoke at a tech conference before. I loved her story, and we're all about education. The roots of VMware were at Stamford Campus. Diane Greene, and all of that story. You think about 130 million girls who don't go to school. We want to see more diversity in inclusion, and she'd never spoken so I was like, you know what, usually you go to these tech conferences and you've heard somebody who's spoken before. I'm like, lets invite her and see if she would come for the first time, and we didn't think she would. And we were able to score that, and I was still a little skeptical 'cause you never know is it going to work out or not. So thank you for saying it worked, I think we got a lot of good feedback. >> Well, in your first line, she was so endearing. You asked her what you thought a tech conference, you said too many acronyms. She just cracked the place up immediately. >> And then you heard my response, right? If somebody tells me like that, you tell VMotion wrong she looked at me what? >> Tell them about our story, real quick, our story I want to ask you a point in question. Her story, why her, and what motivated you to get her? >> Those stories, for any of you viewers, you should read the book "I'm Malala" but I'll give you the short version of the story. She was a nine year old in the Pashtun Area of the Swat Valley in Pakistan, and the Taliban setted a edict that girls could not go to school. Your rightful place was whatever, stay at home and become a mom with babies or whatever have you. You cannot go to school. And her father ran a school, Moster Yousafzai, wonderful man himself, an educator, a grandfather, and says know what, we're going to send you to school. Violating this order, and they gave a warning after warning and finally someone shot her in 2012, almost killed her. The bullet kind of came to her head, went down, and miraculously she escaped. Got on a sort of a hospital on a plane, was flown to London, and the world if you remember 2012, the world was following the story. She comes out of this and she's unscathed. She looks normal, she has a little bit of a thing on the right side of her face but her brains normal, everything's normal. Two years later she wins the Nobel Peace Prize. Has started the Malala Fund, and she is a force of nature, an amazing person. Tim Cook has been doing a lot with her in the Malala Fund. I think that actually caught my attention when Tim Cook was working with her, and you know whatever Apple does often gets a little bit of attention. >> Well great job selecting her. How's that relevant to what you guys are doing now, because you guys had a main theme Tech for Good? Why now, why VMware? A lot of people are looking at this, inspired by it. >> There are milestones in companies histories. We're at our 20 year birthday, and I'm sure at people's birthday they want to do big things, right? 20, 30, 40, 50, these decades are big ones and we thought, lets make this year a year to remember in various things we do. We had a 20 year anniversary celebration on campus, we invited Diane Greene back. It was a beautiful moment internally at Vmware during one of our employee meetings. It was a private moment, but just with her to thank her. And man, there were people emotional almost in tears saying thank you for starting this company. A way to give back to us, same way here. What better way to talk about the impact we're having in the community than have someone who is of this reputation. >> Well we're behind your mission 100%, anything you need. We loved the message, Tech for Good, people want to work for a mission driven company. People want to buy >> We hope so. >> from mission driven companies, that stated clear and the leadership you guys are providing is phenomenal. >> We had some rankings that came out around the same time. Fortune ranked companies who are changing the world, and VMware was ranked 17th overall, of all companies in the world and number one in the software category. So when you're trying to change the world, hopefully as you pointed out it's also an attractor of talent. You want to come here, and maybe even attractor of customers and partners. >> You know the other take-away was from the key note was how many Cricket fans there are in the VMworld Community. Of course we have a lot of folks from India, in our world but who's your favorite Cricketer? Was it Sachin Tendulkar? (laughs) >> Clearly you're reading off your notes Dave! >> Our Sonya's like our, >> Dead giveaway! >> Our Sonya's like our Cricket Geek and she's like, ask him about Sachin, no who's your favorite Cricketer, she wants to know. >> Sachin Tendulkar's way up there, Shayuda Free, the person she likes from Pakistan. I grew up playing cricket, listen I love all sports now that I'm here in this country I love football, I love basketball, I like baseball. So I'll watch all of them, but you know you kind of have those childhood memories. >> Sure >> And the childhood memories were like she talk about, India, Pakistan games. I mean this was like, L.A. Dodgers playing Giants or Red Socks, Yankee's, or Dallas Cowboys and the 49ers, or in Germany playing England or Brazil in the World Cup. Whatever your favorite country or team rivalry is, India Pakistan was all there more, but imagine like a billion people watching it. >> Yeah, well it was a nice touch on stage, and I'd say Ted Williams is my favorite cricketer, oh he plays baseball, he's a Red Sock's Player. Alright Sanjay, just cause your in the hot seat, lets get down to business here. Great moment on stage, congratulation. Okay Pat Gelsinger yesterday on the key note talked about the bridges, VMware bridging, connecting computers. One of the highlights is kind of in your wheelhouse, it's in your wheelhouse, the BYOD, Bring Your Own Device bridge. You're a big part of that. Making that work on on the mobile side. Now with Cloud this new bridge, how is that go forward because you still got to have all those table stakes, so with this new bridge of VMware's in this modern era, cloud and multicloud. Cluely validated, Andy Jassy, on stage. Doing something that Amazon's never done before, doing something on premise with VMware, is a huge deal. I mean we think it's a massive deal, we think it's super important, you guys are super committed to the relationship on premises hybrid cloud, multicloud, is validated as far as we're concerned. It's a done deal. Now ball's in your court, how are you going to bring all that mobile together, security, work space one, what's your plan? >> I would say that, listen on as I described in my story today there's two parts to the VMware story. There's a cloud foundation part which is the move the data center to the cloud in that bridge, and then there's the desk job move it to the mobile. Very briefly, yes three years of my five years were in that business, I'm deeply passionate about it. Much of my team now that I put in place there, Noah and Shankar are doing incredible jobs. We're very excited, and the opportunity's huge. I said at my key note of the seven billion people that live in the world, a billion I estimate, work for some company small or big and all of them have a phone. Likely many of those billion have a phone and a laptop, like you guys have here, right? That real estate of a billion in a half, maybe two billion devices, laptops and phones, maybe in some cases laptop, phone, and tablets. Someone's going to manage and secure, and their diverse across Apple, Google, big option for us. We're just getting started, and we're already the leader. In the data center, the cloud world, Pat, myself, Raghu, really as we sat three years ago felt like we shouldn't be a public cloud ourselves. We divested vCloud Air, as I've talked to you on your show before, Andy Jassy is a friend, dear friend and a classmate of mine from Harvard Business School. We began those discussions the three of us. Pat, Raghu, and myself with Andy and his team and as every quarter and year has gone on they become deeper and deep partnerships. Andy has told other companies that VMware Amazon is the model partnership Amazon has, as they describe who they would like to do business more with. So we're proud when they do that, when we see that happen. And we want to continue that. So when Amazon came to us and said listen I think there's an opportunity to take some of our stack and put it on premise. We kept that confidential cause we didn't want it to leak out to the world, and we said we're going to try'n annouce it at either VMworld or re:Invent. And we were successful. A part with these projects is they inevitably leak. We're really glad no press person sniffed it out. There was a lot of speculation. >> Couldn't get confirmation. >> There was a lot of speculation but no one sniffed it out and wrote a story about it, we were able to have that iPhone moment today, I'm sorry, yesterday when we unveiled it. And it's a big deal because RDS is a fast growing business for them. RDS landing on premise, they could try to do on their own but what better infrastructure to land it on than VMware. In some cases would be VMware running on VxRail which benefits Dell, our hardware partners. And we'll continue doing more, and more, and more as customers desire, so I'm excited about it. >> Andy doesn't do deals, as you know Andy well as we do. He's customer driven. Tell me about the customer demand on this because it's something we're trying to get reporting on. Obviously it makes sense, technically the way it's working. You guys and Andy, they just don't do deals out of the blue. There's customer drivers here, what are those drivers? >> Yeah, we're both listening to our customers and perhaps three, four, five years ago they were very focused on student body left, everybody goes public cloud. Like forget your on premise, evaporate, obliterate your data centers and just go completely public. That was their message. >> True, sweep the floor. >> Right, if you went to first re:Invent I was there on stage with them as an SAP employee, that's what I heard. I think you fast forward to 2014, 2015 they're beginning to realize, hey listen it's not as easy. Refactoring your apps, migrating those apps, what if we could bring the best of private cloud and public cloud together enter VMware and Amazon. He may have felt it was harder to have those cultivations of VMware or for all kinds of reasons, like we had vCloud Air and so on and so forth but once we divested that decision culminations had matured between us that door opened. And as that door opened, more culminations began. Jointly between us and with customers. We feel that there are customers who want many of those past type of services of premise. Cause you're building great things, relational database technology, AI, VI maybe. IoT type of technologies if they are landing on premise in an edge-computing kind of world, why not land on VMware because we're the king of the private cloud. We're very happy to those, we progress those discussion. I think in infrastructure software VMware and Amazon have some of the best engineers on the planet. Sometimes we've engineers who've gone between both companies. So we were able to put our engineering team's together. This is a joint engineering effort. Andy and us often talk about the fact that great innovation's built when it's not just Barny go to Marketing and Marketing press releases this. The true joint engineering at a deep level. That's what happened the last several months. >> Well I can tell you right now the commitment I've seen from an executive level and deep technology, both sides are deep and committed to this. It's go big or go home, at least from our perspective. Question I want to ask you Sanjay is you're close to the customer's of VMware. What's the growth strategy? If you zoom out, look down on stage and you got vSAN, NSX at the core, >> vSANjay (laughs) >> How can you not like a product that has my name on it? >> So you got all these things, where's the growth going to come from, the merging side, is the v going to be the stable crown jewels at NSX? How do you guys see the growth, where's it going to come from? >> Just kind of look at our last quarter. I mean if you peel back the narrative, John and Dave, two years ago we were growing single digits. Like low single digits. Two, three percent. That was, maybe the legacy loser description of VMware was the narrative everyone was talking about >> License revenue was flattish right? >> And then now all of sudden we're double digits. 12, 15 sort of in that range for both product revenue. It's harder to grow faster when you're bigger, and what's happened is that we stabilize compute with vSphere in that part and it's actually been growing a little bit because I think people in the VMware cloud provider part of our business, and the halo effect of the cloud meant that as they refresh the servers they were buying more research. That's good. The management business has started to grow again. Some cases double digits, but at least sort of single digits. NSX, the last few order grew like 30, 40%. vSAN last year was growing 100% off a smaller base, this year going 60, 70%. EUC has been growing double digits, taking a lot of share from company's like Citrix and MobileIron and others. And now, also still growing double digits at much bigger paces, and some of those businesses are well over a billion. Compute, management, end-user computing. We talked about NSX on our queue forming called being a 1.4 billion. So when you get businesses to scale, about a billion dollar type businesses and their sort of four, training five that are in that area, and they all get to grow faster than the market. That's the key, you got to get them going fast. That's how you get growth. So we focus on those on those top five businesses and then add a few more. Like VMware Cloud on AWS, right now our goal is customer logo count. Revenue will come but we talked on our earnings call about a few hundred customers of VMware Cloud and AWS. As that gets into the thousands, and there's absolutely that option, why? Because there's 500,000 customers of VMware and two million customers of Amazon, so there's got to be a lot of commonality between those two to get a few thousand. Then we'll start caring about revenue there too, but once you have logos, you have references. Containers, I'd like to see PKS have a few hundred customers and then, we put one on stage today. National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. Fantastic story of PKS. I even got my PKS socks for this interview. (John laughs) >> So that give you a sense as to how we think, there will be four, five that our businesses had scale and then a few are starting to get there, and they become business to scale. The nature of software is we'll always be doing this show because there will be new businesses to talk about. >> Yeah, hardware is easy. Software is hard, as Andy Patchenstien said on theCUBE yesterday. Congratulations Sanjay and all the success, you guys are doing great financially. Products looking really good coming out, the bloom is rising from the fruit you guys have harvested, coming together. >> John if I can say one last thing, I shared a picture of a plane today and I put two engines behind it. There's something I've learned over the last years about focus of a company, and I joked about different ways that my name's are pronounced but at the core of me there's a DNA. I said on stage I'd rather not be known as smart or stupid but having a big heart. VMware, I hope is known by our customers as having these two engines. An engine of innovation, innovating product and a variety of other things. And focused on customer obsession. We do those, the plane will go a long way. >> And it's looking good you guys, we can say we've been to Radio Event, we've been doing a lot of great stuff. Congratulations on the initiative, and a great interview with you today on doing Tech for Good and sharing your story. Getting more exposure to the kind of narratives people want to hear. More women in tech, more girls in tech, more democratization. Congratulations and thanks so much for sharing. >> Thank you John and Dave. >> Appreciate you being here. >> Sanjay Poonen, COO of VMware. Friend of theCUBE, Cube Alumni, overall great guy. Big heart and competitive too, we know that from his Twitter stream. Follow Sanjay on Twitter. You'll have a great time. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, stay with us for more coverage from day two live, here in Las Vegas for VMware 2018. Stay with us. (tech music)

>> From the Amazon Meeting Center, in downtown Seattle, it's theCUBE. Covering Imagine a Better World, a global education conference, sponsored by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown Seattle at AWS Imagine Education. About 900 people from 20 countries really coming together for the first ever AWS summit from public sector group, really focused just on education. We've got a little bit of a twist here, our next guest really coming from more of the artsy side of the house, which is always great to hear from. We've got Linda Drew, she's the Vice Chancellor, and Andy Cook, the Chief Operations Officer, both from Ravensbourne University in London. Welcome. >> We're really pleased >> Thank you. to be here, really excited. >> For the people that aren't familiar with Ravensbourne, give us a little overview of the school. >> We're in the center of London in Greenwich, which is right by the river. We have about two-and-a-half-thousand students and about 250 faculty. We specialize in design, media, and technology, and the interaction, and all that kind of stuff. >> Pretty fun space to be right now. >> Absolutely gorgeous place to be. >> There's so much talk about IT and the tech and IT in operations, but there's so much neat stuff happening really more on the creative side and in the arts. Leveraging technology in all different, new ways. >> Absolutely, it's kind of hand and glove, really. All the innovation that's happening is happening with the way that tech is disrupting what's happening in the creative workspace, and vice versa really. The two things are effecting each other. >> The channels of distribution now, being so open, there's no greater time to be an artist, a creator, because your path to publishing, your path to your audience is really, really short and direct, assuming you can get their attention. >> Absolutely, I think we recognize there's a huge opportunity there for us in terms of developing a competitive advantage in the sector using new, emerging technologies to forge a new path for the institution and help educate and bridge the skills gap for industry. >> What are the things you guys do, one of the classes is broadcast production, and we were talking to all of our guys behind the cameras that nobody can see, and that again is an evolving space and you guys, it's kind of an interesting play, on one hand you're talking about Shakespearian plays, on the other hand you're looking at the newest, latest, greatest way to get that out to consumers, to viewers, to schools, while training the people in the middle with the latest and greatest tools. You guys have started a AWS Elemental Experiment. I wonder if you can give us a little bit of color on that project. >> I can start, and I'll tell you about the impact that it has, and Andy might be able to follow up on some of the technical stuff. We've had a project going with the Royal Shakespeare Company in England, and it's one of their education programs where what we do is a three-way relationship between them, their plays being shot in Stratford-upon-Avon or in London, and one aspect of what happens is that what we do is host the live program that is shot in our TV production studio and jointly the recorded program and the live action is streamed to schools, several hundred schools at a time. Some of our recent shows have been reaching upwards of 85,000 school students at a time. >> 85,000? >> Absolutely. >> That is great reach. We'd been using the more traditional technology before and that was having some issues with school teachers and others that were saying they weren't getting a great service out of the live stream, and our students were a bit frustrated with what they were learning about the streaming technologies. Since having moved to AWS Elemental, that's really increased the satisfaction both of what our students are learning but also in what they're delivering in terms of the live streamed program and because they're streaming more than one thing, because we know that they're also streaming not just the content but also the British sign language. They're also streaming signed content as well. >> Great, great. Andy, you're on the hook for actually getting these systems up and working, right? >> (laughs) Well, I'm not sure about that, but I think Linda said it all, I think the previous stack of technology that we were using in this area were not reliable, we were getting a lot of jump outs with the streams, lots of complaints from our schools. This shift to Elemental has been transformational. Lots of really complimentary feedback from the schools that are taking part in this exercise. It's been really good. >> That's good, the story over and over with cloud basically anything is that the amount of scale and resources and expertise and hardware and software that Amazon can bring to bear on your behalf compared to what you can do on you own, it's just not the same and you're a relatively small school. It's that same scale delta whether it's a medium-size company, a big company, or multi-national. These guys have that massive scale across so many customers, and you get that delivered to your doorstep. >> As you well know, there's a massive shift taking place in the broadcast industry away from the, towards IP-driven technologies, so we see this as a real opportunity to develop our curriculum, add cloud technologies in to our existing courses and go on that journey away from the more traditional technologies to a cloud-based approach. >> I'm just curious if you've adopted cloud stuff in more your standard IT practices, or where are you on that journey? Or was the client satisfaction issue on these broadcasts what accelerated that adoption faster than your normal stuff? >> I think it's been quite closely related, in some ways. It's a bit kind of chicken and egg. We were already looking at ways of enhancing our infrastructure and this kind of stuff came along at the same time, so we just say how quickly can we get to move some of this stuff for our standard operational focus. >> I think most universities are in some sort of hybrid state running on premise services with some, putting their feet gently into the water of cloud technologies, but I think we're looking at really accelerating that journey towards AWS now for our infrastructure. >> I'm curious, were you here for the keynote this morning? >> Yeah, definitely. >> Did you see the Alexa movie with the kids in the dorm room? >> Yeah. >> Really exciting. Very exciting. >> I think one of the slides really sums up our journey and thoughts around working with Amazon. It's the IT transformation piece, then there's a adoption of machine learning in terms of improving the student experience, and then there's adopting cloud courses into our curriculum, so those three areas are really where we're looking to build a relationship with Amazon. >> It's interesting to see what defines this new education experience, because the kids have different expectations, they've all grown up with apps and mobile. To your point on the attention, if something's not working, they're used to flipping to another channel, switching to another input, so if it doesn't work, you only have their attention for a short period of time. I think it is really interesting to rethink what are the actual activities that define this new engagement and this new student experience while they're in your institution, and I thought that was a really pretty slick demo. >> That was a great example, really good demo. Some of the really exciting things that have come out of us adopting this technology thus far includes some students coming to us with ideas of setting up our very own television channel that we can broadcast on campus using this technology and a way of streaming it to students' phones and tablets so that they've got content about the university and it's activities on a regular basis. >> The ROI calculation for you to execute that when it's cloud-based is very, very different, right? >> Absolutely, yes >> It's pretty simple. (all laughing) Just buy a new rack of servers and the whole to-do. I'll give you the last word, what are you hoping to get out of these couple days here, what have you seen so far, any hallway conversations that are really getting your attention? >> Hopefully, not just a deeper relationship with AWS, but the traction to help us work towards innovating on creativity and technology into the future. >> Great. >> Brilliant. >> Andy goes I'm going to go with the Chancellor, smart man. (all laughing) >> Absolutely. >> Linda and Andy, thanks again for taking a few minutes-- >> Thank you very much. >> Absolute pleasure. and hope you enjoy the rest of your time here. >> Thank you. >> (mumbles) thank you. >> She's Linda, he's Andy, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at AWS Imagine Education in downtown Seattle. Thanks for watching. (electronic tones)

>> live from the Congress Centre in London, England. It's the queue at M I t. And the digital economy. The second machine Age Brought to you by headlines sponsor M I T. >> Everybody, welcome to London. This is Dave along with student men. And this is the cube. The cube goes out, we go to the events. We extract the signal from the noise. We're very pleased to be in London, the scene of the first machine age. But we're here to talk about the second Machine age. Andrew McAfee and Erik Brynjolfsson. Gentlemen, first of all, congratulations on this fantastic book. It's been getting great acclaim. So it's a wonderful book if you haven't read it. Ah, Andrew, Maybe you could hold it up for our audience here, the second machine age >> and Dave to start off thanks to you for being able to pronounce both of our names correctly, that's just about unprecedented. In the history of this, >> I can probably even spell them. Whoa, Don't. So, anyway, welcome. We appreciate you guys coming on and appreciate the opportunity to talk about the book. So if you want to start with you, so why London? I mean, I talked about the first machine age. Why are we back here? One of the >> things we learned when we were writing the book is how big deal technological progress is on the way you learn that is by going back and looking at a lot of history and trying to understand what bet the curve of human history. If we look at how advanced our civilizations are, if we look at how many people there are in the world, if we look at GDP per capita around the world, amazingly enough, we have that data going back hundreds, sometimes thousands of years. And no matter what data you're looking at, you get the same story, which is that nothing happened until the Industrial Revolution. So for us, the start of the first machine machine age for us, it's a real thrill to come to London to come to the UK, which was the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. The first machine age to talk about the second. >> So, Eric, I wonder if you could have with two sort of main vectors that you take away from the book won is that you know, machines have always replaced humans and maybe doing so at a different rate of these days. But the other is the potential of continued innovation, even though many people say Moore's law is dead. You guys have come up with sort of premises to how innovation will continue to double. So boil it down for the lay person. What should we think about? Well, sure. >> I mean, let me just elaborate on what you just said. Technology's always been destroying jobs, but it's also always been creating jobs, you know, A couple centuries ago, ninety percent of Americans worked in agriculture on farms in nineteen hundred is down to about forty one percent. Now is less than two percent. All those people didn't simply become unemployed. Instead, new industries were invented by Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates. Lots of other people and people got rather unemployed, became redeployed. One of the concerns is is, Are we doing that fast enough? This time around, we see a lot of bounty being created by technology. Global poverty rates are falling. Record wealth in the United States record GDP per person. But not everyone's participating in that. Not even when sharing the past ten fifteen years, we've actually to our surprise seem median income fall that's income of the person the fiftieth percentile, even though the overall pie is getting bigger. And one of the reasons that we created the initiative on the digital economy was to try to crack that, not understand what exactly is going on? How is technology behaving differently this time around in earlier eras and part that has to do with some of the unique characteristics of eventual goods? >> Well, your point in the book is that normally median income tracks productivity, and it's it's not this time around. Should we be concerned about that? >> I think we should be concerned about it. That's different than trying to stop for halt course of technology. That's absolutely not something you >> should >> be more concerned about. That way, Neto let >> technology move ahead. We need to let the innovation happen, and if we are concerned about some of the side effects or some of the consequences of that fine, let's deal with those. You bring up what I think is the one of most important side effects to have our eye on, which is exactly as you say when we look back for a long time, the average worker was taking home more pay, a higher standard of living decade after decade as their productivity improved. To the point that we started to think about that as an economic law, your compensation is your marginal productivity fantastic what we've noticed over the past couple of decades, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we've noticed this, as the computer age has accelerated, is that there's been a decoupling. The productivity continues to go up, but the wage that average income has stagnated. Dealing with that is one of our big challenges. >> So what you tell your students become a superstar? I mean, not everybody could become a superstar. Well, our students cats, you know, maybe the thing you know they're all aspired to write. >> A lot of people focus on the way that technology has helped superstars reach global audiences. You know, I had one student. He wrote an app, and about two or three weeks, he tells me, and within a few months he had reached a million people with that app. That's something that probably would have been impossible a couple of decades ago. But he was able to do that because he built it on top of the Facebook platform, which is on top of the Internet and a lot of other innovations that came before. So in some ways it's never been easier to become a superstar and to reach literally not just millions, but even billions of people. But that's not the only successful path in the second machine age. There's also other categories where machines just aren't very good. Yet one of the ones that comes to mind is interpersonal skills, whether that's coaching or underst picking up on other cues from people nurturing people carrying for people. And there are a whole set of professions around those categories as well. You don't have to have some superstar programmer to be successful in those categories, and there are millions of jobs that are needed in those categories for to take care of other P people. So I think there's gonna be a lot of ways to be successful in the second machine age, >> so I think >> that's really important because one take away that I don't like from people who've looked at our work is that only the amazing entrepreneurs or the people with one forty plus IQ's are going to be successful in the second machine age. That's it's just not correct. As Eric says, the ability to negotiate the ability Teo be empathetic to somebody, the ability to care for somebody machines they're lousy of thes. They remain really important things to do. They remain economically valuable things >> love concern that they won't remain louse. If I'm a you know, student listening, you said in your book, Self driving cars, You know, decade ago, even five years ago so it can happen. So how do we predict with computers Will and won't be good at We >> basically don't. Our track record in doing that is actually fairly lousy. The mantra that I've learned is that objects in the future are closer than they appear on the stuff that seem like complete SciFi. You're never goingto happen keeps on happening now. That said, I am still going to be blown away the first time I see a computer written novel that that that works, that that I find compelling, that that seems like a very human skill. But we are starting to see technologies that are good at recognizing human emotions that can compose music that can do art paintings that I find pretty compelling. So never say never is another. >> I mean right, right. If if I look some of the examples lately, you know, basic news computers could do that really well. IBM, you know, the lots of machine can make recipes that we would have never thought of. Very things would be creative. And Ian, the technology space, you know, you know, a decade ago computer science is where you tell everybody to go into today is data scientists still like a hot opportunity for people to go in And the technology space? Where, where is there some good opportunity? >> Or whether or not that's what the job title on the business card is that going to be hot being a numerous person being ableto work with large amounts of data input, particular being able to work with huge amounts of data in a digital environment in a computer that skills not going anywhere >> you could think of jobs in three categories is ready to technology. They're ones that air substitutes racing against machine. They're ones that air compliments that are using technology under ones that just aren't really affected yet by technology. The first category you definitely want to stay away from. You know, a lot of routine information processing work. Those were things machines could do well, >> prepare yourself as a job. Is that for a job as a payroll clerk? There's a really bad wait. >> See that those jobs were disappearing, both in terms of the numbers of employment and the wages that they get. The second category jobs. That compliment data scientist is a great example of that or somebody who's AP Writer or YouTube. Those are things that technology makes your skills more and more valuable. And there's this huge middle category. We talked earlier about interpersonal skills, a lot of physical task. Still, where machines just really can't touch them too much. Those are also categories that so far hell >> no, I didnt know it like middle >> school football, Coach is a job. It's going to be around a human job. It's going to be around for a long time to come because I have not seen the piece of technology that can inspire a group of twelve or thirteen year olds to go out there and play together as a team. Now Erik has actually been a middle school football coach, and he actually used a lot of technology to help him get good at that job, to the point where you are pretty successful. Middle school football coach >> way want a lot of teams games, and part of it was way could learn from technology. We were able to break down films in ways that people never could've previously at the middle school level. His technology's made a lot of things much cheaper. Now then we're available. >> So it was learning to be competitive versus learning how to teach kids to play football. Is that right? Or was a bit? Well, actually, >> one of the most important things and being a coach is that interpersonal connection is one thing I liked the most about it, and that's something I think no robot could do. What I think it be a long, long time. If ever that inspiring halftime speech could be given by a robot >> on getting Eric Gipper bring the Olsen Well, the to me, the more, most interesting examples I didn't realise this until I read your book, is that the best chess player in the world is not a computer, it's a computer and a human. That's what those to me. It seemed to be the greatest opportunities for innovative way. Call a >> racing with machines, and we want to emphasize that that's what people should be focusing. I think there's been a lot of attention on how machines can replace humans. But the bigger opportunities how humans and machines could work together to do things they could never have been done before in games like chess. We see that possibility. But even more, interestingly, is when they're making new discoveries in neuroscience or new kinds of business models like Uber and others, where we are seeing value creation in ways that was just not possible >> previously, and that chess example is going to spill over into the rest of the economy very, very quickly. I think about medicine and medical diagnosis. I believe that work needs to be a huge amount, more digital automated than it is today. I want Dr Watson as my primary care physician, but I do think that the real opportunities we're going to be to combine digital diagnosis, digital pattern recognition with the union skills and abilities of the human doctor. Let's bring those two skill sets together >> well, the Staton your book is. It would take a physician one hundred sixty hours a week to stay on top of reading, to stay on top of all the new That's publication. That's the >> estimate. And but there's no amount of time that watching could learn how to do that empathy that requires to communicate that and learn from a patient so that humans and machines have complementary skills. The machines are strong in some categories of humans and others, and that's why a team of humans and computers could be so >> That's the killer. Since >> the book came out, we found another great example related to automation and medicine in science. There's a really clever experiment that the IBM Watson team did with team out of Baylor. They fed the technology a couple hundred thousand papers related to one area of gene expression and proteins. And they said, Why don't you predict what the next molecules all we should look at to get this tart to get this desired response out on the computer said Okay, we think these nine are the next ones that are going to be good candidates. What they did that was so clever they only gave the computer papers that had been published through two thousand three. So then we have twelve years to see if those hypotheses turned out to be correct. Computer was batting about seven hundred, so people say, didn't that technology could never be creative. I think coming up with a a good scientific hypothesis is an example of creative work. Let's make that work a lot more digital as well. >> So, you know, I got a question from the crowd here. Thie First Industrial Revolution really helped build up a lot of the cities. The question is, with the speed and reach of the Internet and everything, is this really going to help distribute the population? Maur. What? The digital economy? I don't I don't think so. I don't think we want to come to cities, not just because it's the only waited to communicate with somebody we actually want to be >> face to face with them. We want to hang out with urbanization is a really, really powerful trend. Even as our technologies have gotten more powerful. I don't think that's going to revert, but I do think that if you if you want to get away from the city, at least for a period of time and go contemplate and be out in the world. You can now do that and not >> lose touch. You know, the social undistributed workforce isn't gonna drive that away. It's It's a real phenomenon, but it's not going to >> mean that cities were going >> to be popular. Well, the cities have two unique abilities. One is the entertainment. If you'd like to socialize with people in a face to face way most of the time, although people do it online as well, the other is that there's still a lot of types of communication that are best done in person. And, in fact, real estate value suggests that being able to be close toe other experts in your field. Whether it's in Silicon Valley, Hollywood, Wall Street is still a valuable asset. Eric and I >> travel a ton not always together. We could get a lot of our work done via email on via digital tools. When it comes time to actually get together and think about the next article or the next book, we need to be in the same room with the white bored doing it. Old school >> want to come back to the roots of innovation. Moore's law is Gordon Mohr put forth fiftieth anniversary next week, and it's it's It's coming to an end in terms of that actually has ended in terms of the way it's doubling every eighteen months, but looks like we still have some runway. But you know, experts can predict and you guys made it a point you book People always underestimate, you know, human's ability to do the things that people think they can't do. But the rial innovation is coming from this notion of combinatorial technologies. That's where we're going to see that continued exponential growth. What gives you confidence that that >> curve will continue? If you look at innovation as the work, not of coming up with some brand new Eureka, but as putting together existing building blocks in a new and powerful way, Then you should get really optimistic because the number of building blocks out there in the world is only going up with iPhones and sensors and banned weapon and all these different new tools and the ability to tap into more brains around the world to allow more people to try to do that recombination. That ability is only increasing as well. I'm massively optimistic about innovation, >> yet that's a fundamental break from the common attitude. We hear that we're using up all the low hanging fruit, that innovation. There's some fixed stock of it, and first we get the easy innovations, and then it gets harder and harder to innovate. We fundamentally disagree with that. You, in fact, every innovation we create creates more and more building blocks for additional innovations. And if you look historically, most of the breakthroughs have been achieved by combining previously existing innovations. So that makes me optimistic that we'LL have more and more of those building blocks going >> forward. People say that we've we've wrung all of the benefit out of the internal combustion engine, for example, and it's all just rounding error. For here. Know a completely autonomous car is not rounding error. That's the new thing that's going to change. Our lives is going to change our cities is going to change our supply chains, and it's making a new, entirely new use case out of that internal combustion. >> So you used the example of ways in the book, Really, you know, their software, obviously was involved, but it really was sensors and it was social media. And we're mobile phones and networks, just these combinations of technologies for innovation, >> none of which was an invention of the Ways team, none of which was original. Theyjust put those elements together in a really powerful way. >> So that's I mean, the value of ways isn't over. So we're just scratching the surface, and we could talk about sort of what you guys expect. Going forward. I know it's hard to predict well, another >> really important thing about wages in addition to the wake and combined and recombined existing components. It's available for free on my phone, and GPS would've cost hundreds of dollars a few years ago, and it wouldn't have been nearly as good at ways. And in a decade before that, it would have been infinitely expensive. You couldn't get it at any price, and this is a really important phenomenon. The digital economy that is underappreciated is that so much of what we get is now available at zero cost. Our GDP measures are all the goods and services they're bought and sold. If they have zero price, they show up is a zero in GDP. >> Wikipedia, right? Wikipedia, but that just wait here overvalue ways. Yeah, it doesn't. That >> doesn't mean zero value. It's still quite valuable to us. And more and more. I think our metrics are not capturing the real essence of the digital economy. One of the things we're doing at the Initiative initiative, the addition on the usual economy is to understand better what the right metrics will be for seeing this kind of growth. >> And I want to talk about that in the context of what you just said. The competitiveness. So if I get a piece of fruit disappears Smythe Digital economy, it's different. I wonder if you could explain that, >> and one of the ways it's different will use waze is an example here again, is network effects become really, really powerful? So ways gets more valuable to me? The more other ways er's there are out there in the world, they provide more traffic information that let me know where the potholes and the construction are. So network effects lead to really kind of different competitive dynamics. They tend to lead toward more winner, take all situations. They tend to lead toward things that look more not like monopolies, and that tends to freak some people out. I'm a little more home about that because one of the things we also know from observing the high tech industries is that today's near monopolist is yesterday's also ran. We just see that over and over because complacency and inertia are so deadly, there's always some some disruptor coming up, even in the high tech industries to make the incumbents nervous. >> Right? Open source. >> We'LL open source And that's a perfect example of how some of the characteristics of goods in the digital economy are fundamentally different from earlier eras and microeconomics. We talk about rival and excludable goods, and that's what you need for a competitive equilibrium. Digital goods, our non rival and non excludable. You go back to your micro economics textbook for more detail in that, but in essence, what it means is that these goods could be freely coffee at almost zero cost. Each copy is a perfect replica of the original that could be transmitted anywhere on the planet almost instantaneously, and that leads to a very different kind of economics that what we had for the previous few hundred years, >> or you don't work to quantify that. Does that sort of Yeah, wave wanted >> Find the effect on the economy more broadly. But there's also a very profound effects on business and the kind of business models that work. You know, you mentioned open source as an example. There are platform economics, Marshall Banal Stein. One of the experts in the field, is speaking here today about that. Maybe we get a chance to talk about it later. You can sometimes make a lot of money by giving stuff away for free and gaining from complimentary goods. These are things that >> way started. Yeah, Well, there you go. Well, that would be working for you could only do that for a little >> while. You'll like you're a drug dealer. You could do that for a little while. And then you get people addicted many. You start charging them a lot. There's a really different business model in the second machine age, which is just give stuff away for free. You can make enough off other ancillary streams like advertising to have a large, very, very successful business. >> Okay, I wonder if we could sort of, uh, two things I want first I want to talk about the constraints. What is the constraints to taking advantage of that? That innovation curve in the next day? >> Well, that's a great question, and less and less of the constraint is technological. More and more of the constraint is our ability as individuals to cope with change and said There's a race between technology and education, and an even more profound constraint is the ability of our organisations in our culture to adapt. We really see that it's a bottleneck. And at the MIT Sloan School, we're very much focused on trying to relieve those constraints. We've got some brilliant technologists that are inventing the future on the technology side, but we've got to keep up with our business. Models are economic systems, and that's not happening fast enough. >> So let's think about where the technology's aren't in. The constraints aren't and are. As Eric says, access to technology is vanishing as a constraint. Access to capital is vanishing as a constraint, at least a demonstrator to start showing that you've got a good idea because of the cloud. Because of Moore's law and a small team or alone innovator can demonstrate the power of their idea and then ramp it up. So those air really vanishing constraints are mindset, constraints, our institutional constraints. And unfortunately, increasingly, I believe regulatory constraints. Our colleague Larry Lessing has a great way to phrase the choice, he says, With our policies, with our regulations, we can protect the future from the past, or we could protect the past from the future. That choice is really, really write. The future is a better place. Let's protect that from the incumbents in the inertia. >> So that leads us to sort of some of the proposals that you guys made in terms of how we can approach this. Good news is, capitalism is not something that you're you're you're you're very much in favor of, you know, attacking no poulet bureau, I think, was your comments on DH some of the other things? Actually, I found pretty practical, although not not likely, but practical things, right? Yes, but but still, you know, feasible certainly, certainly, certainly intellectually. But what have you seen in terms of the reaction to your proposals? And do you have any once that the public policy will begin to shape in a way that wages >> conference that the conversation is shifting. So just from the publication date now we've noticed there's a lot more willingness to engage with these ideas with the ideas that tech progress is racing ahead but leaving some people behind in more people behind in an economic sense over time. So we've talked to politicians. We've talked to policy makers. We've talked to faint thanks. That conversation is progressing. And if we want to change our our government, you want to change our policies. I think it has to start with changing the conversation. It's a bottom out phenomenon >> and is exactly right. And that's really one of the key things that we learned, you know well, we talked to our political science friends. They remind us that in American other democracies, leaders are really followers on. They follow public opinion and the people are the leaders. So we're not going to be able to get changes in our policies until we change the old broad conversation. We get people recognizing the issues they're underway here, and I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss some of these bigger changes we describe as possible the book. I mean, historically, there've been some huge changes the cost of the mass public education was a pretty radical idea when it was introduced. The concept of Social Security were recently the concept of marriage. Equality with something I think people wouldn't have imagined maybe a decade or two ago so you could have some big changes in the political conversation. It starts with what the people want, and ultimately the leaders will follow. >> It's easy to get dismayed about the logjam in Washington, and I get dismayed once in a while. But I think back a decade ago, if somebody had told me that gay marriage and legal marijuana would be pretty widespread in America, I would have laughed in their face. And, you know, I'm straight and I don't smoke dope. I think these were both fantastic developments, and they came because the conversation shifted. Not not because we had a gay pot smoker in the white. >> Gentlemen, Listen, thank you very much. First of all, for running this great book, well, even I got one last question. So I understand you guys were working on your topic for you next, but can you give us a little bit of, uh, some thoughts as to what you're thinking. What do we do? We tip the hand. Well, sure, I think that >> it's no no mystery that we teach in a business school. And we spent a lot of time interacting with business leaders. And as we've mentioned in the discussion here, there have been some huge changes in the kind of business models that are successful in the second machine age. We want to elaborate on those describe nuts what were seeing when we talk to business leaders but also with the economic theory says about what will and what? What won't work. >> So second machine age was our attempt it like a big idea book. Let's write the Business guide to the Second Machine Age. >> Excellent. First of all, the book is a big idea. A lot of big ideas in the book, with excellent examples and some prescription, I think, for moving forward. So thank you for writing that book. And congratulations on its success. Really appreciate you guys coming in the Cube. Good luck today and we look forward to talking to in the future. Thanks for having been a real pleasure. Keep right. Everybody will be right back. We're live from London. This is M I t E. This is the cube right back