>>Hey everyone, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm your host Lisa Martin, and I have the pleasure of welcoming back our most prolific guest on the cube in its history, the CMO of Fin Ad, Eric Herzog. Eric, it's great to see you. Welcome back, >>Lisa. It's great to be here. Love being on the cube. I think this might be number 55 or 56. Been doing 'em a long time with the Cube. You guys are great. >>You, you have, and we always recognize you lately with the Hawaiian shirts. It's your brand that's, that's the Eric Hizo brand. We love it. But I like the pin, the infin nut pin on brand. Thank you. >>Yeah. Oh, gotta be on brand. >>Exactly. So talk about the current IT landscape. So much change we've seen in the last couple of years. Specifically, what are some of the big challenges that you are talking with enterprise customers and cloud service providers? About what, what are some of those major things on their minds? >>So there's a couple things. First of all is obviously with the Rocky economy and even before covid, just for storage in particular, CIOs hate storage. I've been doing this now since 1986. I have never, ever, ever met a CIO at any company I've bid with. And I've been with four of the biggest storage companies on this planet. Never met a cio. Used to be a storage guy. So they know they need it, but boy, they really don't like it. So the storage admins have to manage more and more storage. Exabytes, exabytes, it just ballooning for what a storage admin has to do. Then you then have the covid and is it recession? No. Is it a growth? And then clearly what's happened in the last year with what's going on in Europe and the, is it a recession, the inflation. So they're always looking to, how do we cut money on storage yet still get what we need for our applications, workloads, and use cases. So that's definitely the biggest, the first topic. >>So never met a CIO that was a storage admin or as a fan, but as you point out, they need it. And we've seen needs changing in customer landscapes, especially as the threat landscape has changed so dramatically the last couple of years. Ransomware, you've said it before, I say it too. It's no longer if it's when it's how often. It's the frequency. We've gotta be able to recover. Backups are being targeted. Talk to me about some of, in that landscape, some of the evolutions of customer challenges and maybe those CIOs going, We've gotta make sure that our, our storage data is protected. >>So it's starting to change. However, historically with the cio and then when they started hiring CISOs or security directors, whatever they had, depending on the company size, it was very much about protecting the edge. Okay, if you will, the moat and the wall of the castle. Then it was the network in between. So keep the streets inside the castle clean. Then it was tracking down the bad guy. So if they did get over, the issue is, if I remember correctly, the sheriff of Nottingham never really caught Robinhood. So the problem is the dwell time where the ransomware malware's hidden on storage could be as much as 200 days. So I think they're starting to realize at the security level now, forget, forget the guys on the storage side, the security guys, the cso, the CIO, are starting to realize that if you're gonna have a comprehensive cybersecurity strategy, must include storage. And that is new >>That, well, that's promising then. That's new. I mean obviously promising given the, the challenges and the circumstances. So then from a storage perspective, customers that are in this multi-cloud hybrid cloud environment, you talked about the the edge cloud on-prem. What are some of the key things from a storage perspective that customers have to achieve these days to be secure as data volumes continue to grow and spread? >>So what we've done is implement on both primary storage and secondary storage and technology called infin safe. So Infin Safe has the four legs of the storage cyber security stool. So first of all is creating an air gap. In this case, a logical air gap can be local or remote. We create an immutable snapshot, which means it can't be changed, it can't be altered, so you can't change it. We have a fenced forensic environment to check out the storage because you don't wanna recover. Again, malware and rans square can is hidden. So you could be making amenable snapshots of actually malware, ransomware, and never know you're doing it right. So you have to check it out. Then you need to do a rapid recovery. The most important thing if you have an attack is how fast can you be up and going with recovery? So we have actually instituted now a number of cyber storage security guarantees. >>We will guarantee the SLAs on a, the snapshot is absolutely immutable. So they know that what they're getting is what they were supposed to be getting. And then also we are guaranteeing recovery times on primary storage. We're guaranteeing recovery of under one minute. We'll make the snapshot available under one minute and on secondary storage under 20 minutes. So those are things you gotta look for from a security perspective. And then the other thing you gotta practice, in my world, ransomware, malware, cyber tech is basically a disaster. So yes, you got the hurricane, yes, you got the flood, yes, you got the earthquake. Yes, you got the fire in the building. Yes you got whatever it may be. But if you don't practice malware, ransomware, recoveries and protection, then it might as well be a hurricane or earthquake. It will take your data, >>It will take your data on the numbers of customers that pay ransom is pretty high, isn't it? And and not necessarily able to recover their data. So it's a huge risk. >>So if you think about it, the government documented that last year, roughly $6 trillion was spent either protecting against ransomware and malware or paying ransomware attacks. And there's been several famous ones. There was one in Korea, 72 million ransom. It was one of the Korea's largest companies. So, and those are only the ones that make the news. Most of 'em don't make the news. Right. >>So talk to me then, speaking and making the news. Nobody wants to do that. We, we know every industry is vulnerable to this. Some of the ones that might be more vulnerable, healthcare, government, public sector education. I think the Los Angeles Unified School district was just hit as well in September. They >>Were >>What, talk to me about how infin out is helping customers really dial down the risk when the threat actors are becoming more and more sophisticated? >>Well, there's a couple things. First of all, our infin safe software comes free on our main product. So we have a product called infin Guard for Secondary Storage and it comes for free on that. And then our primary storage product's called the Infin Box. It also comes for free. So they don't have to use it, but we embed it. And then we have reference architectures that we give them our ses, our solutions architects and our technical advisors all up to speed on why they should do it, how they should do it. We have a number of customers doing it. You know, we're heavily concentrated the global Fortune 2000, for example, we publicly announced that 26% of the Fortune 50 use our technology, even though we're a small company. So we go to extra lengths to a B, educated on our own front, our own teams, and then B, make sure they portray that to the end users and our channel partners. But the end users don't pay a dime for the software that does what I just described, it's free, it's included when you get you're Infin box or you're ingar, it's included at no charge. >>That's pretty differentiating from a competitive standpoint. I might, I would guess >>It is. And also the guarantee. So for example, on primary storage, okay, whether you'd put your Oracle or put your SAP or I Mongo or your sequel or your highly transactional workloads, right? Your business finance workload, all your business critical stuff. We are the first and only storage company that offers a primary guarantee on cyber storage resilience. And we offer two of them on primary storage. No other vendor offers a guarantee, which we do on primary storage. Whether you the first and right now as of here we are sitting in the middle of October. We are still the only vendor that offers anything on primary storage from a guaranteed SLA on primary storage for cyber storage resilience. >>Let's talk about those guarantees. Walk me through what you just announced. There's been a a very, a lot of productivity at Infin DAT in 2022. A lot of things that you've announced but on crack some of the things you're announcing. Sure. Talk to me specifically about those guarantees and what's in it for me as a customer. It sounds pretty obvious, but I'd love to hear it from you. >>Okay, so we've done really three different types of guarantees. The first one is we have a hundred percent availability guarantee on our primary storage. And we've actually had that for the last, since 2019. So it's a hundred percent availability. We're guaranteed no downtime, a hundred percent availability, which for our customer base being heavily concentrated, the global Fortune 2000 large government enterprises, big universities and even smaller companies, we do a lot of business with CSPs and MSPs. In fact, at the Flash Memory Summit are Infin Box ssa All Flash was named the best product for hyperscaler deployment. Hyperscaler basically means cloud servers provider. So they need a hundred percent availability. So we have a guarantee on that. Second guarantee we have is a performance guarantee. We'll do an analysis, we look at all their workloads and then we will guarantee in writing what the performance should be based on which, which of our products they want to buy are Infin Box or Infin Box ssa, which is all flash. >>Then we have the third one is all about cyber resilience. So we have two on our Infin box, our Infin box SSA for primary storage, which is a one the immutability of the snapshot and immediately means you can't erase the data. Right? Camp tamper with it. Second one is on the recovery time, which is under a minute. We just announced in the middle of October that we are doing a similar cyber storage resilience guarantee on our ARD secondary product, which is designed for backup recovery, et cetera. We will also offer the immutably snapshot guarantee and also one on the recoverability of that data in under 20 minutes. In fact, we just did a demo at our live launch earlier this week and we demoed 20 petabytes of Veeam backup data recovered in 12 minutes. 12 >>Minutes 2012. >>20 petabytes In >>12 bytes in 12 minutes. Yes. That's massive. That's massively differentiating. But that's essential for customers cuz you know, in terms of backups and protecting the data, it's all about recovery >>A and once they've had the attack, it's how fast you get back online, right? That that's what happens if they've, if they can't stop the attack, can't stop the threat and it happens. They need to get that back as fast as they can. So we have the speed of recovery on primary stores, the first in the industry and we have speed on the backup software and we'll do the same thing for a backup data set recovery as well. Talk >>To me about the, the what's in it for me, For the cloud service providers, they're obviously the ones that you work with are competing with the hyperscalers. How does the guarantees and the differentiators that Fin out is bringing to market? How do you help those cloud SPS dial up their competitiveness against the big cheeses? >>Well, what we do is we provide that underlying infrastructure. We, first of all, we only sell things that are petabyte in scale. That's like always sell. So for example, on our in fitter guard product, the raw capacity is over four petabytes. And the effective capacity, cuz you do data reduction is over 85 petabytes on our newest announced product, on our primary storage product, we now can do up to 17 petabytes of effective capacity in a single rack. So the value to the service rider is they can save on what slots? Power and floor. A greener data center. Yeah, right. Which by the way is not just about environmentals, but guess what? It also translate into operational expense. >>Exactly. CapEx office, >>With a lot of these very large systems that we offer, you can consolidate multiple products from our competitors. So for example, with one of the competitors, we had a deal that we did last quarter 18 competitive arrays into one of ours. So talk about saving, not just on all of the operational expense, including operational manpower, but actually dramatically on the CapEx. In fact, one of our Fortune 500 customers in the telco space over the last five years have told us on CapEx alone, we've saved them $104 million on CapEx by consolidating smaller technology into our larger systems. And one of the key things we do is everything is automated. So we call it autonomous automation use AI based technology. So once you install it, we've got several public references who said, I haven't touched this thing in three or four years. It automatically configures itself. It automatically adjusts to changes in performance and new apps. When I put in point a new app at it automatically. So in the old days the storage admin would optimize performance for a new application. We don't do that, we automatically do it and autonomously the admin doesn't even click a button. We just sense there's new applications and we automate ourselves and configure ourselves without the admin having to do anything. So that's about saving operational expense as well as operational manpower. >>Absolutely. I was, one of the things that was ringing in my ear was workforce productivity and obviously those storage admins being able to to focus on more strategic projects. Can't believe the CIOs aren't coming around yet. But you said there's, there's a change, there's a wave coming. But if we think about the the, the what's in it for me as a customer, the positive business outcomes that I'm hearing, lower tco, your greener it, which is key. So many customers that we talk to are so focused on sustainability and becoming greener, especially with an on-prem footprint, workforce productivity. Talk about some of the other key business outcomes that you're helping customers achieve and how it helps them to be more competitive. >>Sure. So we've got a, a couple different things. First of all, storage can't go down. When the storage goes down, everyone gets blamed. Mission. When an app goes down, no one really thinks about it. It's always the storage guy's fault. So you want to be a hundred percent available. And that's today's businesses, and I'd actually argue it's been this way for 20 years are 24 by seven by 365. So that's one thing that we deliver. Second thing is performance. So we have public references talk about their SAP workload that used to take two hours, now takes 20 minutes, okay? We have another customer that was doing SAP queries. They improved their performance three times, Not 3%, not 3%, three times. So 300% better performance just by using our storages. They didn't touch the sap, they didn't touch the servers. All they do is to put our storage in there. >>So performance relates basically to applications, workloads and use cases and productivity beyond it. So think the productivity of supply chain guys, logistics guys, the shipping guys, the finance guys, right? All these applications that run today's enterprises. So we can automate all that. And then clearly the cyber threat. Yeah, that is a huge issue. And every CIO is concerned about the cyber threat. And in fact, it was interesting, Fortune magazine did a survey of CEOs, and this was last May, the number one concern, 66% in that may survey was cyber security number one concern. So this is not just a CIO thing, this is a CEO thing and a board level >>Thing. I was gonna say it's at at the board level that the cyber security threats are so real, they're so common. No one wants to be the next headline, like the colonial pipeline, right? Or the school districts or whatnot. And everybody is at risk. So then what you're enabling with what you've just announced, the all the guarantees on the SLAs, the massively fast recovery times, which is critical in cyber recovery. Obviously resilience is is key there. Modern data protection it sounds like to me. How do you define that and and what are customers looking for with respect to modern cyber resilience versus data protection? >>Yeah, so we've got normal data protection because we work with all the backup vendors. Our in ARD is what's known as a purpose built backup appliance. So that allows you to back at a much faster rate. And we work all the big back backup vendors, IBM spectrum Protect, we work with veritas vem com vault, oracle arm, anybody who does backup. So that's more about the regular side, the traditional backup. But the other part of modern data protection is infusing that with the cyber resilience. Cuz cyber resilience is a new thing. Yes, from a storage guy perspective, it hasn't been around a long time. Many of our competitors have almost nothing. One or two of our competitors have a pretty robust, but they don't guarantee it the way we guarantee it. So they're pretty good at it. But the fact that we're willing to put our money where our mouth is, we think says we price stand above and then most of the other guys in the storage industry are just starting to get on the bandwagon of having cyber resilience. >>So that changes what you do from data protection, what would call modern data protection is a combination of traditional backup recovery, et cetera. Now with this influence and this infusion of cybersecurity cyber resilience into a storage environment. And then of course we've also happened to add it on primary storage as well. So whether it's primary storage or backup and archive storage, we make sure you have that right cyber resilience to make it, if you will, modern data protection and diff different from what it, you know, the old backup of your grandfather, father, son backup in tape or however you used to do it. We're well beyond that now we adding this cyber resilience aspect. Well, >>From a cyber resilience perspective, ransomware, malware, cyber attacks are, that's a disaster, right? But traditional disaster recovery tools aren't really built to be able to pull back that data as quickly as it sounds like in Trinidad is able to facilitate. >>Yeah. So one of the things we do is in our reference architectures and written documentation as well as when we do the training, we'd sell the customers you need to practice, if you practice when there's a fire, a flood, a hurricane, an earthquake or whatever is the natural disaster you're practicing that you need to practice malware and ran somewhere. And because our recovery is so rapid and the case of our ingar, our fenced environment to do the testing is actually embedded in it. Several of our competitors, if you want the fenced environment, you have to buy a second product with us. It's all embedded in the one item. So A, that makes it more effective from a CapEx and opex perspective, but it also makes it easier. So we recommend that they do the practice recoveries monthly. Now whether they do it or not separate issue, but at least that's what we're recommending and say, you should be doing this on a monthly basis just like you would practice a disaster, like a hurricane or fire or a flood or an earthquake. Need to be practicing. And I think people are starting to hear it, but they don't still think more about, you know, the flood. Yeah. Or about >>The H, the hurricane. >>Yeah. That's what they think about. They not yet thinking about cybersecurity as really a disaster model. And it is. >>Absolutely. It is. Is is the theme of cyber resilience, as you said, this is a new concept, A lot of folks are talking about it, applying it differently. Is that gonna help dial up those folks just really being much more prepared for that type of cyber disaster? >>Well, we've made it so it's automated. Once you set up the immutable snapshots, it just does its thing. You don't set it and forget it. We create the logical air back. Once you do it, same thing. Set it and forget it. The fence forensic environment, easy to deploy. You do have to just configure it once and then obviously the recovery is almost instantaneous. It's under a minute guaranteed on primary storage and under 20 minutes, like I told you when we did our launch this week, we did 20 petabytes of Veeam backup data in 12 minutes. So that's pretty incredible. That's a lot of data to have recovered in 12 minutes. So the more automated we make it, which is what our real forte is, is this autonomous automation and automating as much as possible and make it easy to configure when you do have to configure. That's what differentiates what we do from our perspective. But overall in the storage industry, it's the recognition finally by the CISOs and the CIOs that, wait a second, maybe storage might be an essential part of my corporate cybersecurity strategy. Yes. Which it has not been historically, >>But you're seeing that change. Yes. >>We're starting to see that change. >>Excellent. So talk to me a little bit before we wrap here about the go to market one. Can folks get their hands on the updates to in kindergar and Finn and Safe and Penta box? >>So all these are available right now. They're available now either through our teams or through our, our channel partners globally. We do about 80% of our business globally through the channel. So whether you talk to us or talk to our channel partners, we're there to help. And again, we put our money where your mouth is with those guarantees, make sure we stand behind our products. >>That's awesome. Eric, thank you so much for joining me on the program. Congratulations on the launch. The the year of productivity just continues for infinit out is basically what I'm hearing. But you're really going in the extra mile for customers to help them ensure that the inevitable cyber attacks, that they, that they're complete storage environment on prem will be protected and more importantly, recoverable Very quickly. We appreciate your insights and your input. >>Great. Absolutely love being on the cube. Thank you very much for having us. Of >>Course. It's great to have you back. We appreciate it. For Eric Herzog, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation live from Palo Alto.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone. It's theCUBE's coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with re:MARS. Amazon re:MARS stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. Lot of great content, accomplishment. AI meets meets robotics and space, industrial IoT, all things data. And we've got two great guests here to unpack the AI side of it. Manoj Suvarna, Managing Director at AI Ecosystem at Deloitte and Arte Merritt, Conversational AI Lead at AWS. Manoj, it's great to see you CUBE alumni. Art, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> So AI's the big theme. Actually, the big disconnect in the industry has been the industrial OT versus IT, and that's happening. Now you've got space and robotics meets what we know is machine learning and AI which we've been covering. This is the confluence of the new IoT market. >> It absolutely is. >> What's your opinion on that? >> Yeah, so actually it's taking IoT beyond the art of possible. One area that we have been working very closely with AWS. We're strategic alliance with them. And for the past six years, we have been investing a lot in transformations. Transformation as it relate to the cloud, transformation as it relate to data modernization. The new edge is essentially on AI and machine learning. And just this week, we announced a new solution which is more focused around enhancing contact center intelligence. So think about the edge of the contact center, where we all have experiences around dealing with customer service and how to really take that to the next level, challenges that clients are facing in every part of that business. So clearly. >> Well, Conversational AI is a good topic. Talk about the relationship with Deloitte and Amazon for a second around AI because you guys have some great projects going on right now. That's well ahead of the curve on solving the scale problem 'cause there's a scale and problem, practical problem and then scale. What's the relationship with Amazon and Deloitte? >> We have a great alliance and relationship. Deloitte brings that expertise to help folks build high quality, highly effective conversational AI and enterprises are implementing these solutions to really try to improve the overall customer experience. So they want to help agents improve productivity, gain insights into the reasons why folks are calling but it's really to provide that better user experience being available 24/7 on channels users prefer to interact. And the solutions that Deloitte is building are highly advanced, super exciting. Like when we show demos of them to potential customers, the eyes light up and they want those solutions. >> John: Give an example when their eyes light up. What are you showing there? >> One solution, it's called multimodal interfaces. So what this is, is when you're call into like a voice IVR, Deloitte's solution will send the folks say a mobile app or a website. So the person can interact with both the phone touching on the screen and the voice and it's all kept in sync. So imagine you call the doctor's office or say I was calling a airline and I want to change my flight or sorry, change the seat. If they were to say, seat 20D is available. Well, I don't know what that means, but if you see the map while you're talking, you can say, oh, 20D is the aisle. I'm going to select that. So Deloitte's doing those kind of experiences. It's incredible. >> Manoj, this is where the magic comes into play when you bring data together and you have integration like this. Asynchronously or synchronously, it's all coming together. You have different platforms, phone, voice, silo databases potentially, the old way. Now, the new ways integrating. What makes it all work? What's the key to success? >> Yeah, it's certainly not a trivial feat. Bringing together all of these ecosystems of relationships, technologies all put together. We cannot do it alone. This is where we partner with AWS with some of our other partners like Salesforce and OneReach and really trying to bring a symphony of some of these solutions to bear. When you think about, going back to the example of contact center, the challenges that the pandemic posed in the last couple of years was the fact that who's a humongous rise in volume of number of calls. You can imagine people calling in asking for all kinds of different things, whether it's airlines whether it is doctor's office and retail. And then couple with that is the fact that there's the labor shortage. And how do you train agents to get them to be productive enough to be able to address hundreds or thousands of these calls? And so that's where we have been starting to, we have invested in those solutions bringing those technologies together to address real client problems, not just slideware but actual production environments. And that's where we launched this solution called TrueServe as of this week, which is really a multimodal solution that is built with preconceived notions of technologies and libraries where we can then be industry agnostic and be able to deliver those experiences to our clients based on whatever vertical or industry they're in. >> Take me through the client's engagement here because I can imagine they want to get a practical solution. They're going to want to have it up and running, not like a just a chatbot, but like they completely integrated system. What's the challenge and what's the outcome first set of milestones that you see that they do first? Do they just get the data together? Are they deploying a software solution? What's the use cases? >> There's a couple different use cases. We see there's the self-service component that we're talking about with the chatbots or voice IVR solutions. There's also use cases for helping the agents, so real-time agent assist. So you call into a contact center, it's transcribed in real time, run through some sort of knowledge base to give the agents possible answers to help the user out, tying in, say the Salesforce data, CRM data, to know more about the user. Like if I was to call the airline, it's going to say, "Are you calling about your flight to San Francisco tomorrow?" It knows who I am. It leverages that stuff. And then the key piece is the analytics knowing why folks are calling, not just your metrics around, length of calls or deflections, but what were the reasons people were calling in because you can use that data to improve your underlying products or services. These are the things that enterprise are looking for and this is where someone like Deloitte comes in, brings that expertise, speeds up the time to market and really helps the customers. >> Manoj, what was the solution you mentioned that you guys announced? >> Yeah, so this is called Deloitte TrueServe. And essentially, it's a combination of multiple different solutions combinations from AWS, from Salesforce, from OneReach. All put together with our joint engineering and really delivering that capability. Enhancing on that is the analytics component, which is really critical, especially because when you think about the average contact center, less than 10% of the data gets analyzed today, and how do you then extract value out of that data and be able to deliver business outcomes. >> I was just talking to some of the other day about Zoom. Everyone records their zoom meetings, and no one watches them. I mean, who's going to wade through that. Call center is even more high volume. We're talking about massive data. And so will you guys automate that? Do you go through every single piece of data, every call and bring it down? Is that how it works? >> Go ahead. >> There's just some of the things you can do. Analyze the calls for common themes, like figuring out like topic modeling, what are the reasons people are calling in. Summarizing that stuff so you can see what those underlying issues are. And so that could be, like I was mentioning, improving the product or service. It could also be for helping train the agents. So here's how to answer that question. And it could even be reinforcing positive experiences maybe an agent had a particular great call and that could be a reference for other folks. >> Yeah, and also during the conversation, when you think about within 60 to 90 seconds, how do you identify the intonation, the sentiments of the client customer calling in and be able to respond in real time for the challenges that they might be facing and the ability to authenticate the customer at the same time be able to respond to them. I think that is the advancements that we are seeing in the market. >> I think also your point about the data having residual values also excellent because this is a long tail of value in this data, like for predictions and stuff. So NASA was just on before you guys came on, talking about the Artemis project and all the missions and they have to run massive amounts of simulations. And this is where I've kind of seen the dots connect here. You can run with AI, run all the heavy lifting without human touching it to get that first ingestion or analysis, and then iterating on the data based upon what else happens. >> Manoj: Absolutely. >> This is now the new normal, right? Is this? >> It is. And it's transverse towards across multiple domains. So the example we gave you was around Conversational AI. We're now looking at that for doing predictive analytics. Those are some examples that we are doing jointly with AWS SageMaker. We are working on things like computer vision with some of the capabilities and what computer vision has to offer. And so when you think about the continuum of possibilities of what we can bring together from a tools, technology, services perspective, really the sky is the limit in terms of delivering these real experiences to our clients. >> So take me through a customer. Pretending I'm a customer, I get it. I got to do this. It's a competitive advantage. What are the outcomes that they are envisioning? What are some of the patterns you're seeing with customers? What outcomes are they expecting and what kind of high level upside you see them envisioning coming out of the data? >> So when you think about the CxOs today and the board, a lot of them are thinking about, okay, how do you build more efficiency in those system? How do you enable a technology or solution for them to not only increase their top line but as well as their bottom line? How do you enhance the customer experience, which in this case is spot on because when you think about, when customers go repeat to a vendor, it's based on quality, it's based on price. Customer experience is now topping that where your first experience, whether it's through a chat or a virtual assistant or a phone call is going to determine the longevity of that customer with you as a vendor. And so clearly, when you think about how clients are becoming AI fuel, this is where we are bringing in new technologies, new solutions to really push the art to the limit and the art of possible. >> You got a playbook too to do this? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We have done that. And in fact, we are now taking that to the next level up. So something that I've mentioned about this before, which is how do you trust an AI system as it's building up. >> Hold on, I need to plug in. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I put this here for a reason to remind me. No, but also trust is a big thing. Just put that trustworthy. This is an AI ethics question. >> Arte: It's a big. >> Let's get into it. This is huge. Data's data. Data can be biased from coming in >> Part of it, there are concerns you have to look at the bias in the data. It's also how you communicate through these automated channels, being empathetic, building trust with the customer, being concise in the answers and being accessible to all sorts of different folks and how they might communicate. So it's definitely a big area. >> I mean, you think about just normal life. We all lived situations where we got a text message from a friend or someone close to us where, what the hell, what are you saying? And they had no contextual bad feelings about it or, well, there's misunderstandings 'cause the context isn't there 'cause you're rapid fire them on the subway. I'm riding my bike. I stop and text, okay, I'm okay. Church response could mean I'm busy or I'm angry. Like this is now what you said about empathy. This is now a new dynamic in here. >> Oh, the empathy is huge, especially if you're say a financial institution or building that trust with folks and being empathetic. If someone's reaching out to a contact center, there's a good chance they're upset about something. So you have to take that. >> John: Calm them down first. >> Yeah, and not being like false like platitude kind of things, like really being empathetic, being inclusive in the language. Those are things that you have conversation designers and linguistics folks that really look into that. That's why having domain expertise from folks like Deloitte come in to help with that. 'Cause maybe if you're just building the chat on your own, you might not think of those things. But the folks with the domain expertise will say like, Hey, this is how you script it. It's the power of words, getting that message across clearly. >> The linguistics matter? >> Yeah, yeah. >> It does. >> By vertical too, I mean, you could pick any the tribe, whatever orientation and age, demographics, genders. >> All of those things that we take for granted as a human. When you think about trust, when you think about bias, when you think about ethics, it just gets amplified. Because now you're dealing with millions and millions of data points that may or may not be the right direction in terms of somebody's calling in depending on what age group they're in. Some questions might not be relevant for that age group. Now a human can determine that, but a bot cannot. And so how do you make sure that when you look at this data coming in, how do you build models that are ethically aware of the contextual algorithms and the alignment with it and also enabling that experience to be much enhanced than taking it backwards, and that's really. >> I can imagine it getting better with as people get scaled up a bit 'cause then you're going to have to start having AI to watch the AI at some point, as they say. Where are we in the progress in the industry right now? Because I know there's been a lot of news stories around, ethics and AI and bias and it's a moving train actually, but still problems are going to be solved. Are we at the tipping point yet? Are we still walking in before we crawl or crawling before we walk? I should say, I mean, where are we? >> I think we are in between a crawling or walk phase. And the reason for that is because it varies depending on whether you're regulated industry or unregulated. In the regulated industry, there are compliance regulations requirements, whether it's government whether it's banking, financial institutions where they have to meet Sarbanes-Oxley and all kinds of compliance requirements, whereas an unregulated industry like retail and consumer, it is anybody's gain. And so the reality of it is that there is more of an awareness now. And that's one of the reasons why we've been promoting this jointly with AWS. We have a framework that we have established where there are multiple pillars of trust, bias, privacy, and security that companies and organizations need to think about. Our data scientists, ML engineers need to be familiar with it, but because while they're super great in terms of model building and development, when it comes to the business, when it comes to the client or a customer, it is super important for them to trust this platform, this algorithm. And that is where we are trying to build that momentum, bring that awareness. One of my colleagues has written this book "Trustworthy AI". We're trying to take the message out to the market to say, there is a framework. We can help you get there. And certainly that's what we are doing. >> Just call Deloitte up and you're going to take care of them. >> Manoj: Yeah. >> On the Amazon side, Amazon Web Services. I always interview Swami every year at re:Invent and he always get the updates. He's been bullish on this for a long time on this Conversational AI. What's the update on the AWS side? Where are you guys at? What's the current trends that you're riding? What wave are you riding right now? >> So some of the trends we see in customer interest, there's a couple of things. One is the multimodal interfaces we we're just chatting about where the voice IVA is synced with like a web or mobile experience, so you take that full advantage of the device. The other is adding additional AI into the Conversational AI. So one example is a customer that included intelligent document processing as part of the chatbot. So instead of typing your name and address, take a photo of your driver's license. It was an insurance onboarding chatbot, so you could take a photo of your existing insurance policy. It'll extract that information to build the new insurance policy. So folks get excited about that. And the third area we see interest is what's called multi-bot orchestration. And this is where you can have one main chatbot. Marshall user across different sub-chatbots based on the use case persona or even language. So those things get people really excited and then AWS is launching all sorts of new features. I don't know which one is coming out. >> I know something's coming out tomorrow. He's right at corner. He's big smile on his face. He wouldn't tell me. It's good. >> We have for folks like the closer alliance relationships, we we're able to get previews. So there a preview of all the new stuff. And I don't know what I could, it's pretty exciting stuff. >> You get in trouble if you spill the beans here. Don't, be careful. I'll watch you. We'll talk off camera. All exciting stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. I think the orchestrator bot is interesting. Having the ability to orchestrate across different contextual datasets is interesting. >> One of the areas where it's particularly interesting is in financial services. Imagine a bank could have consumer accounts, merchant accounts, investment banking accounts. So if you were to chat with the chatbot and say I want to open account, well, which account do you mean? And so it's able to figure out that context to navigate folks to those sub-chatbots behind the scenes. And so it's pretty interesting style. >> Awesome. Manoj while we're here, take a minute to quickly give a plug for Deloitte. What your program's about? What customers should expect if they work with you guys on this project? Give a quick commercial for Deloitte. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, Deloitte has been continuing to lead the AI field organization effort across our client base. If you think about all the Fortune 100, Fortune 500, Fortune 2000 clients, we certainly have them where they are in advanced stages of multiple deployments for AI. And we look at it all the way from strategy to implementation to operational models. So clients don't have to do it alone. And we are continuing to build our ecosystem of relationships, partnerships like the alliances that we have with AWS, building the ecosystem of relationships with other emerging startups, to your point about how do you continue to innovate and bring those technologies to your clients in a trustworthy environment so that we can deliver it in production scale. That is essentially what we're driving. >> Well, Arte, there's a great conversation and the AI will take over from here as we end the segment. I see a a bot coming on theCUBE later and there might be CUBE be replaced with robots. >> Right, right, right, exactly. >> I'm John Furrier, calling from Palo Alto. >> Someday, CUBE bot. >> You can just say, Alexa do my demo for me or whatever it is. >> Or digital twin for John. >> We're going to have a robot on earlier do a CUBE interview and that's Dave Vellante. He'd just pipe his voice in and be fun. Well, thanks for coming on, great conversation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> CUBE coverage here at re:MARS in Las Vegas. Back to the event circle. We're back in the line. Got re:Inforce and don't forget re:Invent at the end of the year. CUBE coverage of this exciting show here. Machine learning, automation, robotics, space. That's MARS, it's re:MARS. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(light music playing) >> Welcome back to VEEAMON 2022 in Las Vegas. We're at the Aria. This is theCUBE and we're covering two days of VEEAMON. We've done a number of VEEAMONs before, we did Miami, we did New Orleans, we did Chicago and we're, we're happy to be back live after two years of virtual VEEAMONs. I'm Dave Vellante. My co-host is David Nicholson. Eric Herzog is here. You think he's, Eric's been on theCUBE, I think more than any other guest, including Pat Gelsinger, who at one point was the number one guest. Eric Herzog, CMO of INFINIDAT great to see you again. >> Great, Dave, thank you. Love to be on theCUBE. And of course notice my Hawaiian shirt, except I now am supporting an INFINIDAT badge on it. (Dave laughs) Look at that. >> Is that part of the shirt or is that a clip-on? >> Ah, you know, one of those clip-ons but you know, it looks good. Looks good. >> Hey man, what are you doing at VEEAMON? I mean, you guys started this journey into data protection several years ago. I remember we were actually at one of their competitors' events when you first released it, but tell us what's going on with Veeam. >> So we do a ton of stuff with Veeam. We do custom integration. We got some integration on the snapshotting side, but we do everything and we have a purpose built backup appliance known as InfiniGuard. It works with Veeam. We also actually have some customers who use our regular primary storage device as a backup target. The InfiniGuard product will do the data reduction, the dedupe compression, et cetera. The standard product does not, it's just a standard high performance array. We will compress the data, but we have customers that do it either way. We have a couple customers that started with the InfiniBox and then transitioned to the InfiniGuard, realizing that why would you put it on regular storage? Why not go to something that's customized for it? So we do that. We do stuff in the field with them. We've been at all the VEEAMONs since the, since like, I think the second one was the first one we came to. We're doing the virtual one as well as the live one. So we've got a little booth inside, but we're also doing the virtual one today as well. So really strong work with Veeam, particularly at the field level with the sales guys and in the channel. >> So when INFINIDAT does something, you guys go hardcore, high end, fast recovery, you just, you know, reliable, that's kind of your brand. Do you see this movement into data protection as kind of an adjacency to your existing markets? Is it a land and expand strategy? Can you kind of explain the strategy there. >> Ah, so it's actually for us a little bit of a hybrid. So we have several accounts that started with InfiniBox and now have gone with the InfiniGuard. So they start with primary storage and go with secondary storage/modern data protection. But we also have, in fact, we just got a large PO from a Fortune 50, who was buying the InfiniGuard first and now is buying our InfiniBox. >> Both ways. Okay. >> All flash array. And, but they started with backup first and then moved to, so we've got them moving both directions. And of course, now that we have a full portfolio, our original product, the InfiniBox, which was a hybrid array, outperformed probably 80 to 85% of the all flash arrays, 'cause the way we use DRAM. And what's so known as our mural cash technology. So we could do very well, but there is about, you know, 15, 20% of the workloads we could not outperform the competition. So then we had an all flash array and purpose built backup. So we can do, you know, what I'll say is standard enterprise storage, high performance enterprise storage. And then of course, modern data protection with our partnerships such as what we do with Veeam and we've incorporated across the entire portfolio, intense cyber resilience technology. >> Why does the world, Eric, need another purpose built backup appliance? What do you guys bring that is filling a gap in the marketplace? >> Well, the first thing we brought was much higher performance. So when you look at the other purpose built backup appliances, it's been about our ability to have incredibly high performance. The second area has been CapEx and OpEx reduction. So for example, we have a cloud service provider who happens to be in South Africa. They had 14 purpose built backup appliances from someone else, seven in one data center and seven in another. Now they have two InfiniGuards, one in each data center handling all of their backup. You know, they're selling backup as a service. They happen to be using Veeam as well as one other backup company. So if you're the cloud provider from their perspective, they just dramatically reduce their CapEx and OpEx. And of course they've made it easier for them. So that's been a good story for us, that ability to consolidation, whether it be on primary storage or secondary storage. We have a very strong play with cloud providers, particularly those meeting them in small that have to compete with the hyperscalers right. They don't have the engineering of Amazon or Google, right? They can't compete with what the Azure guys have got, but because the way both the InfiniGuard and the InfiniBox work, they could dramatically consolidate workloads. We probably got 30 or 40 midsize and actually several members of the top 10 telcos use us. And when they do their clouds, both their internal cloud, but actually the clouds that are actually running the transmissions and the traffic, it actually runs on InfiniBox. One of them has close to 200 petabytes of InfiniBox and InfiniBox, all flash technology running one of the largest telcos on the planet in a cloud configuration. So all that's been very powerful for us in driving revenue. >> So phrases of the week have been air gap, logical air gap, immutable. Where does InfiniGuard fit into that universe? And what's the profile of the customer that's going to choose InfiniGuard as the target where they're immutable, Write Once Read Many, data is going to live. >> So we did, we announced our InfiniSafe technology first on the InfiniGuard, which actually earlier this year. So we have what I call the four legs of the stool of cyber resilience. One is immutable snapshots, but that's only part of it. Second is logical air gapping, and we can do both local and remote and we can provide and combine local with remote. So for example, what that air gap does is separate the management plane from the actual data plane. Okay. So in this case, the Veeam data backup sets. So the management cannot touch that immutable, can't change it, can't delete it. can't edit it. So management is separated once you start and say, I want to do an immutable snap of two petabytes of Veeam backup dataset. Then we just do that. And the air gap does it, but then you could take the local air gap because as you know, from inception to the end of an attack can be close to 300 days, which means there could be a fire. There could be a tornado, there could be a hurricane, there could be an earthquake. And in the primary data center, So you might as well have that air gap just as you would do- do a remote for disaster recovery and business continuity. Then we have the ability to create a fenced forensic environment to evaluate those backup data sets. And we can do that actually on the same device. That is the purpose built backup appliance. So when you look at the architectural, these are public from our competitors, including the guys that are in sort of Hopkinton/Austin, Texas. You can see that they show a minimum of two physical devices. And in many cases, a third, we can do that with one. So not only do we get the fence forensic environment, just like they do, but we do it with reduction, both CapEx and OpEx. Purpose built backup is very high performance. And then the last thing is our ability to recover. So some people talk about rapid recovery, I would say, they dunno what they're talking about. So when we launched the InfiniGuard with InfiniSafe, we did a live demo, 1.5 petabytes, a Veeam backup dataset. We recovered it in 12 minutes. So once you've identified and that's on the InfiniGuard. On the InfiniBox, once you've identified a good copy of data to do the recovery where you're free of malware ransomware, we can do the recovery in three to five seconds. >> Okay. >> So really, really quick. Actually want to double click on something because people talk about immutable copies, immutable snapshots in particular, what have the actual advances been? I mean, is this simply a setting that maybe we didn't set for retention at some time in the past, or if you had to engineer something net new into a system so to provide that logical air gap. >> So what's net new is the air gapping part. Immutable snapshots have been around, you know, before we were on screen, you talked about WORM, Write Once Read Many. Well, since I'm almost 70 years old, I actually know what that means. When you're 30 or 40 or 50, you probably don't even know what a WORM is. Okay. And the real use of immutable snapshots, it was to replace WORM which was an optical technology. And what was the primary usage? Regulatory and compliance, healthcare, finance and publicly traded companies that were worried about. The SEC or the EU or the Japanese finance ministry coming down on them because they're out of compliance and regulatory. That was the original use of immutable snap. Then people were, well, wait a second. Malware ransomware could attack me. And if I got something that's not changeable, that makes it tougher. So the real magic of immutability was now creating the air gap part. Immutability has been around, I'd say 25 years. I mean, WORMs sort of died back when I was at Mac store the first time. So that was 1990-ish is when WORMs sort of fell away. And there have been immutable snapshots from most of the major storage vendors, as well as a lot of the small vendors ever since they came out, it's kind of like a checkbox item because again, regulatory and compliance, you're going to sell to healthcare, finance, public trade. If you don't have the immutable snapshot, then they don't have their compliance and regulatory for SEC or tax purposes, right? With they ever end up in an audit, you got to produce data. And no one's using a WORM drive anymore to my knowledge. >> I remember the first storage conference I ever went to was in Monterey. It had me in the early 1980s, 84 maybe. And it was a optical disc drive conference. The Jim Porter of optical. >> Yep. (laughs) >> I forget what the guy's name was. And I remember somebody coming up to me, I think it was like Bob Payton rest his soul, super smart strategy guy said, this is never going to happen because of the cost and that's what it was. And now you've got that capability on flash, you know, hard disk, et cetera. >> Right. >> So the four pillars, immutability, the air gap, both local and remote, the fence forensics and the recovery speed. Right? >> Right. Pick up is one thing. Recovery is everything. Those are the four pillars, right? >> Those are the four things. >> And your contention is that those four things together differentiate you from the competition. You mentioned, you know, the big competition, but how unique is this in the marketplace, those capabilities and how difficult is it to replicate? >> So first of all, if someone really puts their engineering hat to it, it's not that hard to replicate. It takes a while. Particularly if you're doing an enterprise, for example, our solutions all have a hundred percent availability guarantee. That's hard to do. Most guys have seven nines. >> That's hard. >> We really will guarantee a hundred percent availability. We offer an SLA that's included when you buy. We don't charge extra for it. It's like if you want it, like you just get it. Second thing is really making sure on the recovery side is the hardest part, particularly on a purpose built backup appliance. So when you look at other people and you delve into their public material, press releases, white paper, support documentation. No one's talking about. Yeah, we can take a 1.5 petabyte Veeam backup data set and make it available in 12 minutes and 12 seconds, which was the exact time that we did on our live demo when we launched the product in February of 2022. No one's talking that. On primary storage, you're hearing some of the vendors such as my old employer that also who, also starts with an "I", talk about a recovery time of two to three hours once you have a known good copy. On primary storage, once we have a known good copy, we're talking three to five seconds for that copy to be available. So that's just sort of the power of the snapshot technology, how we manage our metadata and what we've done, which previous to cyber resiliency, we were known for our replication capability and our snapshot capability from an enterprise class data store. That's what people said. INFINIDAT really knows how to do the replication snapshot. I remember our founder was one of the technical founders of EMC for a product known as the Symmetric, which then became the DMAX, the VMAX and is now is the PowerMax. That was invented by the guy who founded INFINIDAT. So that team has the real chops at enterprise high-end storage to the global fortune 2000. And what are the key feature checkbox items they need that's in both the InfiniBox and also in the InfiniGuard. >> So the business case for cyber resiliency is changing. As Dave said, we've had a big dose last several months, you know, couple years actually, of the importance of cyber resiliency, given all the ransomware tax, et cetera. But it sounds like the business case is shifting really focused on avoiding that risk, avoiding that downtime time versus the cost. The cost is always important. I mean, you got a consolidation play here, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Dedupe, does dedupe come into play? >> So on the InfiniGuard we do both dedupe and compression. On the InfiniBox we only do compression. So we do have data reduction. It depends on which product you're using from a Veeam perspective. Most of that now is with the InfiniGuard. So you get the block level dedupe and you get compression. And if you can do both, depending on the data set, we do both. >> How does that affect recovery time? >> Yeah, good question. >> So it doesn't affect recovery times. >> Explain why. >> So first of all, when you're doing a backup data set, the final final recovery, you recovered the backup data set, whether it's Veeam or one of their competitors, you actually make it available to the backup administrator to do a full restore of a backup data set. Okay. So in that case, we get it ready and expose it to the Veeam admin or some other backup admin. And then they launch the Veeam software or the other software and do a restore. Okay. So it's really a two step process on the secondary storage model and actually three. First identifying a known good backup copy. Second then we recover, which is again 12, 13 minutes. And then the backup admin's got to do a, you know, a restore of the backup 'cause it's backup data set in the format of backup, which is different from every backup vendor. So we support that. We get it ready to go. And then whether it's a Veeam backup administrator and quite honestly, from our perspective, most of our customers in the global fortune 2000, 25% of the fortune 50 use INIFINIDAT products. 25% and we're a tiny company. So we must have some magic fairy dust that appeals to the biggest companies on the planet. But most of our customers in that area and actually say probably in the fortune 500 actually use two to three different backup packages. So we can support all those on a single InfiniGuard or multiples depending on how big their backup data sets. Our biggest InfiniGuard is 50 petabytes counting the data reduction technology. So we get that ready. On the InfiniBox, the recovery really is, you know, a couple of seconds and in that case, it's primary data in block format. So we just make that available. So on the InfiniBox, the recovery is once, well two. Identifying a known good copy, first step, then just doing recovery and it's available 'cause it's blocked data. >> And that recovery doesn't include movement of a whole bunch of data. It's essentially realignment of pointers to where the good data is. >> Right. >> Now in the InfiniBox as well as in InfiniGuard. >> No, it would be, So in the case of that, in the case of the InfiniGuard, it's a full recovery of a backup data set. >> Okay. >> So the backup software just launches and it sees, >> Okay. >> your backup one of Veeam and just starts doing a restore with the Veeam restoration technology. Okay? >> Okay. >> In the case of the block, as long as the physical InfiniBox, if that was the primary storage and then filter box is not damaged when you make it available, it's available right away to the apps. Now, if you had an issue with the app side or the physical server side, and now you're pointing new apps and you had to reload stuff on that side, you have to point it at that InfiniBox which has the data. And then you got to wait for the servers and the SAP or Oracle or Mongo, Cassandra to recognize, oh, this is my primary storage. So it depends on the physical configuration on the server side and the application perspective, how bad were the apps damaged? So let's take malware. Malware is even worse because you either destroying data or messing, playing with the app so that the app is now corrupted as well as the data is corrupted. So then it's going to take longer the block data's ready, the SAP workload. And if the SAP somehow was compromised, which is a malware thing, not a ransomware thing, they got to reload a good copy of SAP before it can see the data 'cause the malware attacked the application as well as the data. Ransomware doesn't do that. It just holds it for ransom and it encrypts. >> So this is exactly what we're talking about. When we talk about operational recovery and automation, Eric is addressing the reality that it doesn't just end at the line above some arbitrary storage box, you know, reaching up real recovery, reaches up into the application space and it's complicated. >> That's when you're actually recovered. >> Right. >> When the application- >> Well, think of it like a disaster. >> Okay. >> Yes, right. >> I'll knock on woods since I was born and still live in California. Dave too. Let's assume there's a massive earthquake in the bay area in LA. >> Let's not. >> Okay. Let's yes, but hypothetically and the data center's cat five. It doesn't matter what they're, they're all toast. Okay. Couple weeks later it's modern. You know, people figure out what to do and certain buildings don't fall down 'cause of the way earthquake standards are in California now. So there's data available. They move into temporary space. Okay. Data's sitting there in the Colorado data center and they could do a restore. Well, they can't do a restore. How many service did they need? Had they reloaded all of the application software to do a restoration. What happened to the people? If no one got injured, like in the 1989 earthquake in California, very few people got injured yet cost billions of dollars. But everyone was watching this San Francisco giants played in Oakland, >> I remember >> so no one was on the road. >> Al Michael's. >> Epic moment. >> Imagine it's in the middle of commute time in LA and San Francisco, hundreds of thousands of people. What if it's your data center team? Right? So there's a whole bunch around disaster recovery and business country that have nothing to do with the storage, the people, what your process. So I would argue that malware ransomware is a disaster and it's exactly the same thing. You know, you got the known good copy. You've got okay. You're sure that the SAP and Oracle, especially on the malware side, weren't compromised. On the ransomware side, you don't have to worry about that. And those things, you got to take a look at just as if it, I would argue malware and ransomware is a disaster and you need to have a process just like you would. If there was an earthquake, a fire or a flood in the data center, you need a similar process. That's slightly different, but the same thing, servers, people, software, the data itself. And when you have that all mapped out, that's how you do successful malware ransomeware recovery. It's a different type of disaster. >> It's absolutely a disaster. It comes down to business continuity and be able to transact business with as little disruption as possible. We heard today from the keynotes and then Jason Buffington came on about the preponderance of ransomware. Okay. We know that. But then the interesting stat was the percentage of customers that paid the ransom about a third weren't able to recover. And so 'cause you kind of had this feeling of all right, well, you know, see it on, you know, CNBC, should you pay the ransom or not? You know, pay the ransom. Okay. You'll get back. But no, it's not the case. You won't necessarily get back. So, you know, Veeam stated, Hey, our goal is to sort of eliminate that problem. Are you- You feel like you guys in a partnership can actually achieve that. >> Yes. >> So, and you have customers that have actually avoided, you know, been hit and were able to- >> We have people who won't publicly say they've been hit, but the way they talk about what they did, like in a meeting, they were hit and they were very thankful. >> (laughs) Yeah. >> And so that's been very good. I- >> So we got proof. >> Yes, we absolutely have proof. And quite honestly, with the recent legislation in the United States, malware and ransomware actually now is also regulatory and compliance. >> Yeah. >> Because the new law states mid-March that whether it's Herzog's bar and grill to bank of America or any large foreign company doing business in the US, you have to report to the United States federal government, any attack, same with the county school district with any local government, any agency, the federal government, as well as every company from the tiniest to the largest in the world that does, they're supposed to report it 'cause the government is trying to figure out how to fight it. Just the way if you don't report burglary, how they catch the burglars. >> Does your solution simplify testing in any way or reduce the risk of testing? >> Well, because the recovery is so rapid, we recommend that people do this on a regular basis. So for example, because the recovery is so quick, you can recover in 12 minutes while we do not practice, let's say once a month or once every couple weeks. And guess what? It also allows you to build a repository of known good copies. Remember when you get ransomeware, no one's going to come say, Hey, I'm Mr. Rans. I'm going to steal your stuff. It's all done surreptitiously. They're all James Bond on the sly who doesn't say "By the way, I'm James Bond". They are truly underneath the radar. And they're very slowly encrypting that data set. So guess what? Your primary data and your backup data that you don't want to be attacked can be attacked. So it's really about finding a known good copy. So if you're doing this on a regular basis, you can get an index of known good copies. >> Right. >> And then, you know, oh, I can go back to last Tuesday and you know that that's good. Otherwise you're literally testing Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday to try to find a known good copy, which delays the recovery process 'cause you really do have to test. They make sure it's good. >> If you increase that frequency, You're going to protect yourself. That's why I got to go. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBEs. Great to see you. >> Great. Thank you very much. I'll be wearing a different Hawaiian shirt next to. >> All right. That sounds good. >> All right, Eric Herzog, Eric Herzog on theCUBE, Dave Vallante for David Nicholson. We'll be right back at VEEAMON 2022. Right after this short break. (light music playing)

(upbeat music) >> Lately Infinidat has been on a bit of a Super cycle of product announcements. Adding features, capabilities, and innovations to its core platform that are applied across its growing install base. CEO, Phil Bollinger has brought in new management and really emphasized a strong and consistent cadence of product releases, a hallmark of successful storage companies. And one of those new executives is a CMO with a proven product chops, who seems to bring an energy and an acceleration of product output, wherever he lands. Eric Herzog joins us on "theCUBE". Hey, man. Great to see you. Awesome to have you again. >> Dave. Thank you. And of course, for "theCUBE", of course, I had to put on a Hawaiian shirt as always. >> They're back. All right, I love it.(laughs) Watch out for those Hawaiian shirt police, Eric. (both laughing) All right. I want to have you start by. Maybe you can make some comments on the portfolio over the past year. You heard my intro, InfiniBox is the core, the InfiniBox SSA, which announced last year. InfiniGuard you made some substantial updates in February of this year. Real focus on cyber resilience, which we're going to talk about with Infinidat. Give us the overview. >> Sure. Well, what we've got is it started really 11 years ago with the InfiniBox. High end enterprise solution, hybrid oriented really incredible magic fairy dust around the software and all the software technology. So for example, the Neural Cache technology, which has multiple patents on it, allowed the original InfiniBox to outperform probably 85% of the All-Flash Arrays in the industry. And it still does that today. We also of course, had our real, incredible ease-of-use the whole point of the way it was configured and set up from the beginning, which we continued to make sure we do is if you will a set it and forget it model. For example, When you install, you don't create lungs and raid groups and volumes it automatically and autonomously configures. And when you add new solutions, AKA additional applications or additional servers and point it at the InfiniBox. It automatically, again in autonomously, adjust to those new applications learning what it needs to configure everything. So you're not setting cash size and Q depth, or Stripes size, anything you would performance to you don't have to do any of that. So that entire set of software is on the InfiniBox. The InfiniBox SSA II, which we're of course launching today and then inside of the InfiniGuard platform, there's a actually an InfiniBox. So the commonality of snapshots replication, ease of use. All of that is identical across the platform of all-flash array, hybrid array and purpose-built backup secondary storage and no other vendor has that breadth of product that has the same exact software. Some make a similar GUI, but we're talking literally the same exact software. So once you learn it, all three platforms, even if you don't have them, you could easily buy one of the other platforms that you don't have yet. And once you've got it, you already know how to use it. 'Cause you've had one platform to start as an example. So really easy to use from a customer perspective. >> So ever since I've been following the storage business, which has been a long time now, three things that customers want. They want something that is rock solid, dirt cheap and super fast. So performance is something that you guys have always emphasized. I've had some really interesting discussions over the years with Infinidat folks. How do you get performance? If you're using this kind of architecture, it's been quite amazing. But how does this launch extend or affect performance? Why the focus on performance from your standpoint? >> Well, we've done a number of different things to bolster the performance. We've already been industry-leading performance again. The regular InfiniBox outperforms 80, 85% of the All-Flash Arrays. Then, when the announcement of the InfiniBox SSA our first all-flash a year ago, we took that now to the highest demanding workloads and applications in the industry. So what did it add to the super high end Oracle app or SAP or some custom app that someone's created with Mongo or Cassandra. We can absolutely meet the performance between either the InfiniBox or the InfiniBox all-flash with the InfiniBox SSA. However, we've decided to extend the performance even farther. So we added a whole bunch of new CPU cores into our tri part configuration. So we don't have two array controllers like many companies do. We actually have three everything's in threes, which gives us the capability of having our 100% availability guarantee. So we've extended that now we've optimized. We put a additional InfiniBand interconnects between the controllers, we've added the CPU core, we've taken if you will the InfiniBox operating system, Neural Cache and everything else we've had. And what we have done is we have optimized that to take advantage of all those additional cores. This has led us to increase performance in all aspects, IOPS bandwidth and in fact in latency. In latency we now are at 35 mikes of latency. Real world, not a hero number, but real-world on an array. And when you look end to end, if I Mr. Oracle, or SAP sitting in the server and I'll look across that bridge, of course the sand and over to the other building the storage building that entire traversing can be as fast as a 100 microseconds of latency across the entire configuration, not just the storage. >> Yeah. I think that's best in class for an external array. Well, so what's the spectrum you can now hit with the performance ranges. Can you hit all the aspects of the market with the two InfiniBoxes, your original, and then the SSA? >> Yes, even with the original SSA. In fact, we've had one of our end users, who's been first InfiniBox customer, then InfiniBox SSA actually has been running for the last two months. A better version of the SSA II. So they've had a better version and this customer's running high end Oracle rack configurations. So they decided, you know what? We're not going to run storage benchmarks. We're going to run only Oracle benchmarks. And in every benchmark IOPS, latency and bandwidth oriented, we outperformed the next nearest competition. So for example, 57% faster in IOPS, 58% faster in bandwidth and on the latency side using real-world Oracle apps, we were three times better performance on the latency aspect, which of course for a high end high performance workload, that's heavily transactional. Latency is the most important, but when you look across all three of those aspects dramatically outperform. And by the way, that was a beta unit that didn't of course have final code on it yet. So incredible performance angle with the InfiniBox SSA II. >> So I mean you earlier, you were talking about the ease of use. You don't have to provision lungs and all that sort of nonsense, and you've always emphasized ease-of-use. Can you double click on that a little bit? How do you think about that capability? And I'm really interested in why you think it's different from other vendors? >> Well, we make sure that, for example, when you install you don't have to do anything, you have to rack and stack, yes and cable. And of course, point the servers at the storage, but the storage just basically comes up. In fact, we have a customer and it's a public reference that bought a couple units many years ago and they said they were up and going in about two hours. So how many high-end enterprise storage array can be up and going in two hours? Almost I mean, basically nobody about us. So we wanted to make sure that we maintain that when we have customers, one of our big plays, particularly helping with CapEx and OpEx is because we are so performant. We can consolidate, we have a large customer in Europe that took 57 arrays from one of our competitors and consolidate it to five of the original InfiniBox. 57 to 5. They saved about $25 million in capital expense and they're saving about a million and a half a year in operational expense. But the whole point was as they kept adding more and more servers that were connected to those competitive arrays and pointing them at the InfiniBox, there's no performance tuning. Again, that's all ease-of-use, not only saving on operational expense, but obviously as we know, the headcount for storage admins is way down from its peak, which was probably in 2007. Yet every admin is managing what 25 to 50 times the amount of storage between 2007 and 2022. So the reality is the easier it is to use. Not only does of course the CIO love it because both the two of us together probably been storage, doing storage now for close to 80 years would be my guess I've been doing it for 40. You're a little younger. So maybe we're at 75 to 78. Have you ever met a CIO used to be a storage admin ever? >> No. >> And I can't think of one either so guess what? The easier it is to use the CIOs know that they need storage. They don't like it. They're all these days are all software guys. There used to be some mainframe guys in the old days, but they're long gone too. It's all about software. So when you say, not only can we help reduce your CapEx at OpEx, but the operational manpower to run the storage, we can dramatically reduce that because of our ease-of-use that they get and ease-of-use has been a theme on the software side ever since the Mac came out. I mean, Windows used to be a dog. Now it's easy to use and you know, every time the Linux distribution come out, someone's got something that's easier and easier to use. So, the fact that the storage is easy to use, you can turn that directly into, we can help you save on operational manpower and OPEX and CIOs. Again, none of which ever met are storage guys. They love that message. Of course the admins do too 'cause they're managing 25 to 50 times more storage than they had to manage back in 2007. So the easier it is for them at the tactical level, the storage admin, the storage manager, it's a huge deal. And we've made sure we've maintained that as you've added the SSA, as we brought up the InfiniGuard, as we've continue to push new feature function. We always make it easy to use. >> Yeah. Kind of a follow up on that. Just focus on software. I mean, I would think every storage company today, every modern storage company is going to have more software engineers than hardware engineers. And I think Infinidat obviously is no different. You got a strong set of software, it's across the portfolio. It's all included kind of thing. I wonder if you could talk about your software approach and how that is different from your competitors? >> Sure, so we started out 11 years ago when in Infinidat first got started. That was all about commodity hardware. So while some people will use custom this and custom that, yeah and I having worked at two of the biggest storage companies in the world before I came here. Yes, I know it's heavily software, but our percentage of hardware engines, softwares is even less hardware engineering than our competitors have. So we've had that model, which is why this whole what we call the set it and forget it mantra of ease-of-use is critical. We make sure that we've expanded that. For example, we're announcing today, our InfiniOps focus and Infini Ops all software allows us to do AIOps both inside of our storage system with our InfiniVerse and InfiniMetrics packages. They're easy to use. They come pre-installed and they manage capacity performance. We also now have heavy integration with AI, what I'll call data center, AIOps vendors, Vetana ServiceNow, VMware and others. And in that case, we make sure that we expose all of our information out to those AIOps data center apps so that they can report on the storage level. So we've made sure we do that. We have incredible support for the Ansible framework again, which is not only a software statement, but an ease-of-use statement as well. So for the Ansible framework, which is trying to allow an even simpler methodology for infrastructure deployment in companies. We support that extensively and we added some new features. Some more, if you will, what I'll say are more scripts, but they're not really scripts that Ansible hides all that. And we added more of that, whether that be configuration installations, that a DevOps guy, which of course just had all the storage guys listening to this video, have a heart attack, but the DevOps guy could actually configure storage. And I guess for my storage buddies, they can do it without messing up your storage. And that's what Ansible delivers. So between our AIOps focus and what we're doing with InfiniOps, that extends of course this ease-of-use model that we've had and includes that. And all this again, including we already talked about a little bit cyber resilience Dave, within InfiniSafe. All this is included when you buy it. So we don't piecemeal, which is you get this and then we try to upcharge you for that. We have the incredible pricing that delivers this CapEx and an OpEx. Not just for the array, but for the associated software that goes with it, whether that be Neural Cache, the ease-of-use, the InfiniOps, InfiniSafes. You get all of that package together in the way we deploy from a business now perspective, ease of doing business. You don't cut POS for all kinds of pieces. You cut APO and you just get all the pieces on the one PO when we deliver it. >> I was talking yesterday to a VC and we were chatting about AI And of course, everybody's chasing AI. It's a lot of investments go in there, but the reality is, AI is like containers. It's just getting absorbed into virtually every thing. And of course, last year you guys made a pretty robust splash into AIOps. And then with this launch, you're extending that pretty substantially. Tell us a little bit more about the InfiniOps announcement news. >> So the InfiniOps includes our existing in the box framework InfiniVerse and what we do there, by the way, InfiniVerse has the capability with the telemetry feed. That's how we could able to demo at our demo today and also at our demo for our channel partner pre-briefing. Again a hundred mics of latency across the entire configuration, not just to a hundred mics of latency on storage, which by the way, several of our competitors talk about a hundred mics of latency as their quote hero number. We're talking about a hundred mics of latency from the application through the server, through the SAN and out to the storage. Now that is incredible. But the monitoring for that is part of the InfiniOps packaging, okay. We support again with DevOps with all the integration that we do, make it easy for the DevOps team, such as with Ansible. Making sure for the data center people with our integration, with things like VMware and ServiceNow. The data center people who are obviously often not the storage centric person can also be managing the entire data center. And whether that is conversing with the storage admin on, we need this or that, or whether they're doing it themselves again, all that is part of our InfiniOps framework and we include things like the Ansible support as part of that. So InfiniOps is sort of an overarching theme and then overarching thing extends to AIops inside of the storage system. AIops across the data center and even integration with I'll say something that's not even considered an infrastructure play, but something like Ansible, which is clearly a red hat, software oriented framework that incorporates storage systems and servers or networks in the capability of having DevOps people manage them. And quite honestly have the DevOps people manage them without screwing them up or losing data or losing configuration, which of course the server guys, the network guys and the storage guys hate when the DevOps guys play with it. But that integration with Ansible is part of our InfiniOps strategy. >> Now our shift gears a little bit talk about cyber crime and I mean, it's a topic that we've been on for a long time. I've personally been writing about it now for the last few years. Periodically with my colleagues from ETR, we hit that pretty hard. It's top of mind, and now the house just approved what's called the Better Cybercrime Metrics Act. It was a bipartisan push. I mean, the vote was like 377 to 48 and the Senate approved this bill last year. Once president Biden signs it, it's going to be the law's going to be put into effect and you and many others have been active in this space Infinidat. You announced cyber resilience on your purpose bill backup appliance and secondary storage solution, InfiniGuard with the launch of InfiniSafe. What are you doing for primary storage from InfiniBox around cyber resilience? >> So the goal between the InfiniGuard and secondary storage and the InfiniBox and the InfiniBox SSA II, we're launching it now, but the InfiniSafe for InfiniBox will work on the original InfiniBox. It's a software only thing. So there's no extra hardware needed. So it's a software only play. So if you have an InfiniBox today, when you upgrade to the latest software, you can have the InfiniSafe reference architecture available to you. And the idea is to support the four key legs of the cybersecurity table from a storage perspective. When you look at it from a storage perspective, there's really four key things that the CISO and the CIO look for first is a mutable snapshot technology. An article can't be deleted, right? You can schedule it. You can do all kinds of different things, but the point is you can't get rid of it. Second thing of course, is an air gap. And there's two types of air gap, logical air gap, which is what we provide and physical the main physical air gaping would be either to tape or to course what's left of the optical storage market. But we've got a nice logical air gap and we can even do that logical air gaping remotely. Since most customers often buy for disaster recovery purposes, multiple arrays. We can then put that air gap, not just locally, but we can put the air gap of course remotely, which is a critical differentiator for the InfiniBox a remote logical air gap. Many other players have logical, we're logical local, but we're going remote. And then of course the third aspect is a fenced forensic environment. That fence forensic environment needs to be easily set up. So you can determine a known good copy to a restoration after you've had a cyber incident. And then lastly is rapid recovery. And we really pride ourself on this. When you go to our most recent launch in February of the InfiniGuard within InfiniSafe, we were able to demo live a recovery taking 12 minutes and 12 seconds of 1.5 petabytes of backup data from Veeam. Now that could have been any backup data. Convolt IBM spectrum tech Veritas. We happen to show with Veeam, but in 12 minutes and 12 seconds. Now on the primary storage side, depending on whether you're going to try to recover locally or do it from a remote, but if it's local, we're looking at something that's going to be 1 to 2 minutes recovery, because the way we do our snapshot technology, how we just need to rebuild the metadata tree and boom, you can recover. So that's a real differentiator, but those are four things that a CISO and a CIO look for from a storage vendor is this imutable snapshot capability, the air gaping capability, the fenced environment capability. And of course this near instantaneous recovery, which we have proven out well with the InfiniGuard. And now with the InfiniBox SSA II and our InfiniBox platform, we can make that recovery on primary storage, even faster than what we have been able to show customers with the InfiniGuard on the secondary data sets and backup data sets. >> Yeah. I love the four layer cake. I just want to clarify something on the air gap if I could so you got. You got a local air gap. You can do a remote air gap with your physical storage. And then you're saying there's I think, I'm not sure I directly heard that, but then the next layer is going to be tape with the CTA, the Chevy truck access method, right? >> Well, so while we don't actively support tape and go to that there's basically two air gap solutions out there that people talk about either physical, which goes to tape or optical or logical. We do logical air gaping. We don't do air gaping to tape 'cause we don't sell tape. So we make sure that it's a remote logical air gap going to a secondary DR Site. Now, obviously in today's world, no one has a true DR data center anymore, right. All data centers are both active and DR for another site. And because we're so heavily concentrated in the global Fortune 2000, almost all the InfiniBoxes in the field already are set up as in a disaster recovery configuration. So using a remote logical air gap would be is easy for us to do with our InfiniBox SSA II and the whole InfiniBox family. >> And, I get, you guys don't do tape, but when you say remote, so you've got a local air gap, right? But then you also you call a remote logical, but you've got a physical air gap, right? >> Yeah, they would be physically separated, but when you're not going to tape because it's fully removable or optical, then the security analysts consider that type of air gap, a logical air gap, even though it's physically at a remote. >> I understand, you spent a lot of time with the channel as well. I know, and they must be all over this. They must really be climbing on to the whole cyber resiliency. What do you say, do they set up? Like a lot of the guys, doing managed services as well? I'm just curious. Are there separate processes for the air gap piece than there are for the mainstream production environment or is it sort of blended together? How are they approaching that? >> So on the InfiniGuard product line, it's blended together, okay. On the InfiniBox with our InfiniSafe reference architecture, you do need to have an extra server where you create an scuzzy private VLAN and with that private VLAN, you set up your fenced forensic environment. So it's a slightly more complicated. The InfiniGuard is a 100% automated. On the InfiniBox we will be pushing that in the future and we will continue to have releases on InfiniSafe and making more and more automated. But the air gaping and the fence reference now are as a reference architecture configuration. Not with click on a gooey in the InfiniGuard case are original InfiniSafe. All you do is click on some windows and it just goes does. And we're not there yet, but we will be there in the future. But it's such a top of mind topic, as you probably see. Last year, Fortune did a survey of the Fortune 500 CEOs and the number one cited threat at 66% by the way was cybersecurity. So one of the key things store storage vendors do not just us, but all storage vendors is need to convince the CISO that storage is a critical component of a comprehensive cybersecurity strategy. And by having these four things, the rapid recovery, the fenced forensic environment, the air gaping technology and the immutable snapshots. You've got all of the checkbox items that a CISO needs to see to make sure. That said many CISOs still even today stood on real to a comprehensive cybersecurity strategy and that's something that the storage industry in general needs to work on with the security community from a partner perspective. The value is they can sell a full package, so they can go to their end user and say, look, here's what we have for edge protection. Here's what we've got to track the bad guide down once something's happened or to alert you that something's happened by having tools like IBM's, Q Radar and competitive tools to that product line. That can traverse the servers and the software infrastructure, and try to locate malware, ransomware akin to the way all of us have Norton or something like Norton on our laptop that is trolling constantly for viruses. So that's sort of software and then of course storage. And those are the elements that you really need to have an overall cybersecurity strategy. Right now many companies have not realized that storage is critical. When you think about it. When you talk to people in security industry, and I know you do from original insertion intrusion to solution is 287 days. Well guess what if the data sets thereafter, whether it be secondary InfiniGuard or primary within InfiniBox, if they're going to trap those things and they're going to take it. They might have trapped those few data sets at day 50, even though you don't even launch the attack until day 200. So it's a big deal of why storage is so critical and why CISOs and CIOs need to make sure they include it day one. >> It's where the data lives, okay. Eric. Wow.. A lot of topics we discovered. I love the agile sort of cadence. I presume you're not done for the year. Look forward to having you back and thanks so much for coming on today. >> Great. Thanks you, Dave. We of course love being on "theCUBE". Thanks again. And thanks for all the nice things about Infinidat. You've been saying thank you. >> Okay. Yeah, thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi everyone, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this CUBE conversation where we're going to dig in to this, the area of cloud databases. And Gartner just published a series of research in this space. And it's really a growing market, rapidly growing, a lot of new players, obviously the big three cloud players. And with me are three experts in the field, two long time industry analysts. Marc Staimer is the founder, president, and key principal at Dragon Slayer Consulting. And he's joined by David Floyer, the CTO of Wikibon. Gentlemen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Great to see you too Dave. >> Marc, coming from the great Northwest, I think first time on theCUBE, and so it's really great to have you. So let me set this up, as I said, you know, Gartner published these, you know, three giant tomes. These are, you know, publicly available documents on the web. I know you guys have been through them, you know, several hours of reading. And so, night... (Dave chuckles) Good night time reading. The three documents where they identify critical capabilities for cloud database management systems. And the first one we're going to talk about is, operational use cases. So we're talking about, you know, transaction oriented workloads, ERP financials. The second one was analytical use cases, sort of an emerging space to really try to, you know, the data warehouse space and the like. And, of course, the third is the famous Gartner Magic Quadrant, which we're going to talk about. So, Marc, let me start with you, you've dug into this research just at a high level, you know, what did you take away from it? >> Generally, if you look at all the players in the space they all have some basic good capabilities. What I mean by that is ultimately when you have, a transactional or an analytical database in the cloud, the goal is not to have to manage the database. Now they have different levels of where that goes to as how much you have to manage or what you have to manage. But ultimately, they all manage the basic administrative, or the pedantic tasks that DBAs have to do, the patching, the tuning, the upgrading, all of that is done by the service provider. So that's the number one thing they all aim at, from that point on every database has different capabilities and some will automate a whole bunch more than others, and will have different primary focuses. So it comes down to what you're looking for or what you need. And ultimately what I've learned from end users is what they think they need upfront, is not what they end up needing as they implement. >> David, anything you'd add to that, based on your reading of the Gartner work. >> Yes. It's a thorough piece of work. It's taking on a huge number of different types of uses and size of companies. And I think those are two parameters which really change how companies would look at it. If you're a Fortune 500 or Fortune 2000 type company, you're going to need a broader range of features, and you will need to deal with size and complexity in a much greater sense, and a lot of probably higher levels of availability, and reliability, and recoverability. Again, on the workload side, there are different types of workload and there're... There is as well as having the two transactional and analytic workloads, I think there's an emerging type of workload which is going to be very important for future applications where you want to combine transactional with analytic in real time, in order to automate business processes at a higher level, to make the business processes synchronous as opposed to asynchronous. And that degree of granularity, I think is missed, in a broader view of these companies and what they offer. It's in my view trying in some ways to not compare like with like from a customer point of view. So the very nuance, what you talked about, let's get into it, maybe that'll become clear to the audience. So like I said, these are very detailed research notes. There were several, I'll say analysts cooks in the kitchen, including Henry Cook, whom I don't know, but four other contributing analysts, two of whom are CUBE alum, Don Feinberg, and Merv Adrian, both really, you know, awesome researchers. And Rick Greenwald, along with Adam Ronthal. And these are public documents, you can go on the web and search for these. So I wonder if we could just look at some of the data and bring up... Guys, bring up the slide one here. And so we'll first look at the operational side and they broke it into four use cases. The traditional transaction use cases, the augmented transaction processing, stream/event processing and operational intelligence. And so we're going to show you there's a lot of data here. So what Gartner did is they essentially evaluated critical capabilities, or think of features and functions, and gave them a weighting, or a weighting, and then a rating. It was a weighting and rating methodology. On a s... The rating was on a scale of one to five, and then they weighted the importance of the features based on their assessment, and talking to the many customers they talk to. So you can see here on the first chart, we're showing both the traditional transactions and the augmented transactions and, you know, the thing... The first thing that jumps out at you guys is that, you know, Oracle with Autonomous is off the charts, far ahead of anybody else on this. And actually guys, if you just bring up slide number two, we'll take a look at the stream/event processing and operational intelligence use cases. And you can see, again, you know, Oracle has a big lead. And I don't want to necessarily go through every vendor here, but guys, if you don't mind going back to the first slide 'cause I think this is really, you know, the core of transaction processing. So let's look at this, you've got Oracle, you've got SAP HANA. You know, right there interestingly Amazon Web Services with the Aurora, you know, IBM Db2, which, you know, it goes back to the good old days, you know, down the list. But so, let me again start with Marc. So why is that? I mean, I guess this is no surprise, Oracle still owns the Mission-Critical for the database space. They earned that years ago. One that, you know, over the likes of Db2 and, you know, Informix and Sybase, and, you know, they emerged as number one there. But what do you make of this data Marc? >> If you look at this data in a vacuum, you're looking at specific functionality, I think you need to look at all the slides in total. And the reason I bring that up is because I agree with what David said earlier, in that the use case that's becoming more prevalent is the integration of transaction and analytics. And more importantly, it's not just your traditional data warehouse, but it's AI analytics. It's big data analytics. It's users are finding that they need more than just simple reporting. They need more in-depth analytics so that they can get more actionable insights into their data where they can react in real time. And so if you look at it just as a transaction, that's great. If you're going to just as a data warehouse, that's great, or analytics, that's fine. If you have a very narrow use case, yes. But I think today what we're looking at is... It's not so narrow. It's sort of like, if you bought a streaming device and it only streams Netflix and then you need to get another streaming device 'cause you want to watch Amazon Prime. You're not going to do that, you want one, that does all of it, and that's kind of what's missing from this data. So I agree that the data is good, but I don't think it's looking at it in a total encompassing manner. >> Well, so before we get off the horses on the track 'cause I love to do that. (Dave chuckles) I just kind of let's talk about that. So Marc, you're putting forth the... You guys seem to agree on that premise that the database that can do more than just one thing is of appeal to customers. I suppose that makes, certainly makes sense from a cost standpoint. But, you know, guys feel free to flip back and forth between slides one and two. But you can see SAP HANA, and I'm not sure what cloud that's running on, it's probably running on a combination of clouds, but, you know, scoring very strongly. I thought, you know, Aurora, you know, given AWS says it's one of the fastest growing services in history and they've got it ahead of Db2 just on functionality, which is pretty impressive. I love Google Spanner, you know, love the... What they're trying to accomplish there. You know, you go down to Microsoft is, they're kind of the... They're always good enough a database and that's how they succeed and et cetera, et cetera. But David, it sounds like you agree with Marc. I would say, I would think though, Amazon kind of doesn't agree 'cause they're like a horses for courses. >> I agree. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So I wonder if you could comment on that. >> Well, I want to comment on two vectors. The first vector is that the size of customer and, you know, a mid-sized customer versus a global $2,000 or global 500 customer. For the smaller customer that's the heart of AWS, and they are taking their applications and putting pretty well everything into their cloud, the one cloud, and Aurora is a good choice. But when you start to get to a requirements, as you do in larger companies have very high levels of availability, the functionality is not there. You're not comparing apples and... Apples with apples, it's two very different things. So from a tier one functionality point of view, IBM Db2 and Oracle have far greater capability for recovery and all the features that they've built in over there. >> Because of their... You mean 'cause of the maturity, right? maturity and... >> Because of their... Because of their focus on transaction and recovery, et cetera. >> So SAP though HANA, I mean, that's, you know... (David talks indistinctly) And then... >> Yeah, yeah. >> And then I wanted your comments on that, either of you or both of you. I mean, SAP, I think has a stated goal of basically getting its customers off Oracle that's, you know, there's always this urinary limping >> Yes, yes. >> between the two companies by 2024. Larry has said that ain't going to happen. You know, Amazon, we know still runs on Oracle. It's very hard to migrate Mission-Critical, David, you and I know this well, Marc you as well. So, you know, people often say, well, everybody wants to get off Oracle, it's too expensive, blah, blah, blah. But we talked to a lot of Oracle customers there, they're very happy with the reliability, availability, recoverability feature set. I mean, the core of Oracle seems pretty stable. >> Yes. >> But I wonder if you guys could comment on that, maybe Marc you go first. >> Sure. I've recently done some in-depth comparisons of Oracle and Aurora, and all their other RDS services and Snowflake and Google and a variety of them. And ultimately what surprised me is you made a statement it costs too much. It actually comes in half of Aurora for in most cases. And it comes in less than half of Snowflake in most cases, which surprised me. But no matter how you configure it, ultimately based on a couple of things, each vendor is focused on different aspects of what they do. Let's say Snowflake, for example, they're on the analytical side, they don't do any transaction processing. But... >> Yeah, so if I can... Sorry to interrupt. Guys if you could bring up the next slide that would be great. So that would be slide three, because now we get into the analytical piece Marc that you're talking about that's what Snowflake specialty is. So please carry on. >> Yeah, and what they're focused on is sharing data among customers. So if, for example, you're an automobile manufacturer and you've got a huge supply chain, you can supply... You can share the data without copying the data with any of your suppliers that are on Snowflake. Now, can you do that with the other data warehouses? Yes, you can. But the focal point is for Snowflake, that's where they're aiming it. And whereas let's say the focal point for Oracle is going to be performance. So their performance affects cost 'cause the higher the performance, the less you're paying for the performing part of the payment scale. Because you're paying per second for the CPUs that you're using. Same thing on Snowflake, but the performance is higher, therefore you use less. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things to come into this but at the end of the day what I've found is Oracle tends to be a lot less expensive than the prevailing wisdom. So let's talk value for a second because you said something, that yeah the other databases can do that, what Snowflake is doing there. But my understanding of what Snowflake is doing is they built this global data mesh across multiple clouds. So not only are they compatible with Google or AWS or Azure, but essentially you sign up for Snowflake and then you can share data with anybody else in the Snowflake cloud, that I think is unique. And I know, >> Marc: Yes. >> Redshift, for instance just announced, you know, Redshift data sharing, and I believe it's just within, you know, clusters within a customer, as opposed to across an ecosystem. And I think that's where the network effect is pretty compelling for Snowflake. So independent of costs, you and I can debate about costs and, you know, the tra... The lack of transparency of, because AWS you don't know what the bill is going to be at the end of the month. And that's the same thing with Snowflake, but I find that... And by the way guys, you can flip through slides three and four, because we've got... Let me just take a quick break and you have data warehouse, logical data warehouse. And then the next slide four you got data science, deep learning and operational intelligent use cases. And you can see, you know, Teradata, you know, law... Teradata came up in the mid 1980s and dominated in that space. Oracle does very well there. You can see Snowflake pop-up, SAP with the Data Warehouse, Amazon with Redshift. You know, Google with BigQuery gets a lot of high marks from people. You know, Cloud Data is in there, you know, so you see some of those names. But so Marc and David, to me, that's a different strategy. They're not trying to be just a better data warehouse, easier data warehouse. They're trying to create, Snowflake that is, an incremental opportunity as opposed to necessarily going after, for example, Oracle. David, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, ease of use is a primary benefit for Snowflake. It enables you to do stuff very easily. It enables you to take data without ETL, without any of the complexity. It enables you to share a number of resources across many different users and know... And be able to bring in what that particular user wants or part of the company wants. So in terms of where they're focusing, they've got a tremendous ease of use, tremendous focus on what the customer wants. And you pointed out yourself the restrictions there are of doing that both within Oracle and AWS. So yes, they have really focused very, very hard on that. Again, for the future, they are bringing in a lot of additional functions. They're bringing in Python into it, not Python, JSON into the database. They can extend the database itself, whether they go the whole hog and put in transaction as well, that's probably something they may be thinking about but not at the moment. >> Well, but they, you know, they obviously have to have TAM expansion designs because Marc, I mean, you know, if they just get a 100% of the data warehouse market, they're probably at a third of their stock market valuation. So they had better have, you know, a roadmap and plans to extend there. But I want to come back Marc to this notion of, you know, the right tool for the right job, or, you know, best of breed for a specific, the right specific, you know horse for course, versus this kind of notion of all in one, I mean, they're two different ends of the spectrum. You're seeing, you know, Oracle obviously very successful based on these ratings and based on, you know their track record. And Amazon, I think I lost count of the number of data stores (Dave chuckles) with Redshift and Aurora and Dynamo, and, you know, on and on and on. (Marc talks indistinctly) So they clearly want to have that, you know, primitive, you know, different APIs for each access, completely different philosophies it's like Democrats or Republicans. Marc your thoughts as to who ultimately wins in the marketplace. >> Well, it's hard to say who is ultimately going to win, but if I look at Amazon, Amazon is an all-cart type of system. If you need time series, you go with their time series database. If you need a data warehouse, you go with Redshift. If you need transaction, you go with one of the RDS databases. If you need JSON, you go with a different database. Everything is a different, unique database. Moving data between these databases is far from simple. If you need to do a analytics on one database from another, you're going to use other services that cost money. So yeah, each one will do what they say it's going to do but it's going to end up costing you a lot of money when you do any kind of integration. And you're going to add complexity and you're going to have errors. There's all sorts of issues there. So if you need more than one, probably not your best route to go, but if you need just one, it's fine. And if, and on Snowflake, you raise the issue that they're going to have to add transactions, they're going to have to rewrite their database. They have no indexes whatsoever in Snowflake. I mean, part of the simplicity that David talked about is because they had to cut corners, which makes sense. If you're focused on the data warehouse you cut out the indexes, great. You don't need them. But if you're going to do transactions, you kind of need them. So you're going to have to do some more work there. So... >> Well... So, you know, I don't know. I have a different take on that guys. I think that, I'm not sure if Snowflake will add transactions. I think maybe, you know, their hope is that the market that they're creating is big enough. I mean, I have a different view of this in that, I think the data architecture is going to change over the next 10 years. As opposed to having a monolithic system where everything goes through that big data platform, the data warehouse and the data lake. I actually see what Snowflake is trying to do and, you know, I'm sure others will join them, is to put data in the hands of product builders, data product builders or data service builders. I think they're betting that that market is incremental and maybe they don't try to take on... I think it would maybe be a mistake to try to take on Oracle. Oracle is just too strong. I wonder David, if you could comment. So it's interesting to see how strong Gartner rated Oracle in cloud database, 'cause you don't... I mean, okay, Oracle has got OCI, but you know, you think a cloud, you think Google, or Amazon, Microsoft and Google. But if I have a transaction database running on Oracle, very risky to move that, right? And so we've seen that, it's interesting. Amazon's a big customer of Oracle, Salesforce is a big customer of Oracle. You know, Larry is very outspoken about those companies. SAP customers are many, most are using Oracle. I don't, you know, it's not likely that they're going anywhere. My question to you, David, is first of all, why do they want to go to the cloud? And if they do go to the cloud, is it logical that the least risky approach is to stay with Oracle, if you're an Oracle customer, or Db2, if you're an IBM customer, and then move those other workloads that can move whether it's more data warehouse oriented or incremental transaction work that could be done in a Aurora? >> I think the first point, why should Oracle go to the cloud? Why has it gone to the cloud? And if there is a... >> Moreso... Moreso why would customers of Oracle... >> Why would customers want to... >> That's really the question. >> Well, Oracle have got Oracle Cloud@Customer and that is a very powerful way of doing it. Where exactly the same Oracle system is running on premise or in the cloud. You can have it where you want, you can have them joined together. That's unique. That's unique in the marketplace. So that gives them a very special place in large customers that have data in many different places. The second point is that moving data is very expensive. Marc was making that point earlier on. Moving data from one place to another place between two different databases is a very expensive architecture. Having the data in one place where you don't have to move it where you can go directly to it, gives you enormous capabilities for a single database, single database type. And I'm sure that from a transact... From an analytic point of view, that's where Snowflake is going, to a large single database. But where Oracle is going to is where, you combine both the transactional and the other one. And as you say, the cost of migration of databases is incredibly high, especially transaction databases, especially large complex transaction databases. >> So... >> And it takes a long time. So at least a two year... And it took five years for Amazon to actually succeed in getting a lot of their stuff over. And five years they could have been doing an awful lot more with the people that they used to bring it over. So it was a marketing decision as opposed to a rational business decision. >> It's the holy grail of the vendors, they all want your data in their database. That's why Amazon puts so much effort into it. Oracle is, you know, in obviously a very strong position. It's got growth and it's new stuff, it's old stuff. It's, you know... The problem with Oracle it has like many of the legacy vendors, it's the size of the install base is so large and it's shrinking. And the new stuff is.... The legacy stuff is shrinking. The new stuff is growing very, very fast but it's not large enough yet to offset that, you see that in all the learnings. So very positive news on, you know, the cloud database, and they just got to work through that transition. Let's bring up slide number five, because Marc, this is to me the most interesting. So we've just shown all these detailed analysis from Gartner. And then you look at the Magic Quadrant for cloud databases. And, you know, despite Amazon being behind, you know, Oracle, or Teradata, or whomever in every one of these ratings, they're up to the right. Now, of course, Gartner will caveat this and say, it doesn't necessarily mean you're the best, but of course, everybody wants to be in the upper, right. We all know that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you should go by that database, I agree with what Gartner is saying. But look at Amazon, Microsoft and Google are like one, two and three. And then of course, you've got Oracle up there and then, you know, the others. So that I found that very curious, it is like there was a dissonance between the hardcore ratings and then the positions in the Magic Quadrant. Why do you think that is Marc? >> It, you know, it didn't surprise me in the least because of the way that Gartner does its Magic Quadrants. The higher up you go in the vertical is very much tied to the amount of revenue you get in that specific category which they're doing the Magic Quadrant. It doesn't have to do with any of the revenue from anywhere else. Just that specific quadrant is with that specific type of market. So when I look at it, Oracle's revenue still a big chunk of the revenue comes from on-prem, not in the cloud. So you're looking just at the cloud revenue. Now on the right side, moving to the right of the quadrant that's based on functionality, capabilities, the resilience, other things other than revenue. So visionary says, hey how far are you on the visionary side? Now, how they weight that again comes down to Gartner's experts and how they want to weight it and what makes more sense to them. But from my point of view, the right side is as important as the vertical side, 'cause the vertical side doesn't measure the growth rate either. And if we look at these, some of these are growing much faster than the others. For example, Snowflake is growing incredibly fast, and that doesn't reflect in these numbers from my perspective. >> Dave: I agree. >> Oracle is growing incredibly fast in the cloud. As David pointed out earlier, it's not just in their cloud where they're growing, but it's Cloud@Customer, which is basically an extension of their cloud. I don't know if that's included these numbers or not in the revenue side. So there's... There're a number of factors... >> Should it be in your opinion, Marc, would you include that in your definition of cloud? >> Yeah. >> The things that are hybrid and on-prem would that cloud... >> Yes. >> Well especially... Well, again, it depends on the hybrid. For example, if you have your own license, in your own hardware, but it connects to the cloud, no, I wouldn't include that. If you have a subscription license and subscription hardware that you don't own, but it's owned by the cloud provider, but it connects with the cloud as well, that I would. >> Interesting. Well, you know, to your point about growth, you're right. I mean, it's probably looking at, you know, revenues looking, you know, backwards from guys like Snowflake, it will be double, you know, the next one of these. It's also interesting to me on the horizontal axis to see Cloud Data and Databricks further to the right, than Snowflake, because that's kind of the data lake cloud. >> It is. >> And then of course, you've got, you know, the other... I mean, database used to be boring, so... (David laughs) It's such a hot market space here. (Marc talks indistinctly) David, your final thoughts on all this stuff. What does the customer take away here? What should I... What should my cloud database management strategy be? >> Well, I was positive about Oracle, let's take some of the negatives of Oracle. First of all, they don't make it very easy to rum on other platforms. So they have put in terms and conditions which make it very difficult to run on AWS, for example, you get double counts on the licenses, et cetera. So they haven't played well... >> Those are negotiable by the way. Those... You bring it up on the customer. You can negotiate that one. >> Can be, yes, They can be. Yes. If you're big enough they are negotiable. But Aurora certainly hasn't made it easy to work with other plat... Other clouds. What they did very... >> How about Microsoft? >> Well, no, that is exactly what I was going to say. Oracle with adjacent workloads have been working very well with Microsoft and you can then use Microsoft Azure and use a database adjacent in the same data center, working with integrated very nicely indeed. And I think Oracle has got to do that with AWS, it's got to do that with Google as well. It's got to provide a service for people to run where they want to run things not just on the Oracle cloud. If they did that, that would in my term, and my my opinion be a very strong move and would make make the capabilities available in many more places. >> Right. Awesome. Hey Marc, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. Thank you, David, as well, and thanks to Gartner for doing all this great research and making it public on the web. You can... If you just search critical capabilities for cloud database management systems for operational use cases, that's a mouthful, and then do the same for analytical use cases, and the Magic Quadrant. There's the third doc for cloud database management systems. You'll get about two hours of reading and I learned a lot and I learned a lot here too. I appreciate the context guys. Thanks so much. >> My pleasure. All right, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(uplifting music) >> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto at theCUBE studios for a special conversation with Tarun Thaker, general manager of Datos IO, part of Rubrik. Last time I interviewed you, you were the CEO. You guys got acquired, congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you, John. Very happy to be here. >> How'd that go? How'd the acquisition go? >> Excellent, excellent. I Met Bipul about August of last year and it was sort of perfect marriage waiting to happen. We were both going after the broader irresistible opportunity of data management. >> I've enjoyed our previous conversations because you guys were a hot, growing start up and then you look at Rubrik, if you look at the success that they've been having, just the growth in data protection, the growth in cloud, you guys were on with from the beginning with Datos. Now you got a management team, you got all this growth, it is pretty fun to watch and I'll see you locally in Palo Alto so it's been interesting to see you guys. Huge growth opportunity. Cloud people are realizing that this is not a side decision. >> No. >> It's got to be done centrally. The customers are re architecting to be cloud native. The on premises, we saw big industry movements happening with Amazon at VMworld announcing RDS on VMware on premises. >> Correct. >> Which validates that the enterprises want to have a cloud operation, both on premise. >> Yes. >> And in cloud. How has this shaped you guys? You have big news, but this is a big trend. >> No, absolutely. John, I think you rightly said, the pace of innovation at Rubrik and the pace of market adoption is beyond everybody's imagination, right? When I said that it was sort of a marriage waiting to be happened, is if you look at the data management tam it's close to 50 billion dollars, right? And you need to build a portfolio of products, right? You need to sort of think about the classical data center applications because on prem is still there and on premises is still a big part of spending. But if you look at where enterprises are racing to the cloud. They're racing given digital transformation. They're racing customer 360 experience. Every organization, whether it be financials, maybe healthcare, maybe commerce, wants to get closer to the end customers, right? And if you look underneath that macro trend, it's all this cloud native space. Whether it be Kubernetes and Docker based containers or it could be RDS which is natively built in the cloud or it could be, hey I want to now run Oracle in the cloud, right? Once you start thinking of this re architecting stack being built in the cloud, enterprises will not leap and spend those top dollars that they spend on prem if they don't get a true, durable data management stack. >> And one of the things I really was impressed when you Datos, now it's part of Rubrik, is you were cloud up and down the stack. You were early on cloud, you guys thought like cloud native. Your operations was very agile. >> Thank you. >> Everything about you, beyond the product, was cloud. This is a critical success now for companies. They have to not just do cloud with product. >> Correct. >> Their operational impact has to be adjusted, how they do business, the supply chains, the value chains. These things are changing. >> The licensing, the pricing. >> This is the new model. >> Yes. >> This is where the data comes in. This is where the support comes in. You guys have some hard news, Datos IO 3.0. What's the big news? >> John, as you said, we've been very squarely focused on what we called the NoSQL big data market, right? We, if you look at, you know you talked about Amazon RDS, if you go to the Amazon business, Amazon database business is about four billon dollars today, right? Just think about that. If you take a guess on number one data base in Amazon native, it's not Oracle, it's MySQL. Number two, it's not SQL Server, it's Mongo DB. So if you look at the cloud native stack, we made this observation four years ago, as you said, that underneath this was all NoSQL. We really found that blue ocean, as we call it, the green field opportunity and go build the next Veritas for that space. You know, with 3.0, Bipul likes to call it in accordance to his leadership, consolidate your gains. Once you find an island full of gold coins, you don't leave that island. (laughing) You go double down, triple down, right? You don't want to distract your focus so 3.0 is all about us focusing. Really sort of the announcements are rooted around three vectors, as we call it. Number one, if you look at why Rubrik was so successful, you know you went into a pretty gorilla market of backup but why Rubrik has been successful at the heart is this ease of use and simplicity. And we wanted to bring that culture into, not only Datos team, but also into our product, right? So that was simplicity. Large scale distributive systems are difficult to deploy and manage so that was the first part. Second part was all about, you know, if you look at Mongo. Mongo has gone from zero to four billion dollars in less than 10 years. Every Fortune 2000, 500, Global 2000 customer is using Mongo in some critical way. >> Why is that? I mean people were always, personally we love Mongo DB, but people were predicting their demise every year. "Oh, it's never going to scale," I've heard people say and again, this is the competition. >> Correct. >> We know who they are. But why is the success there? Obviously NoSQL and unstructured data's big tsunami and there's more data coming in than ever before. Why are they successful? >> Excellent. That's why I enjoy being here, you go to the why not the what and the how. And the why is rooted for why Mongo DB's so successful, is application developers. We've all read this book, developers are the king makers of the IT, not your IT and storage admins? And Mongo found that niche, that if I can go build a database which is easier for an application developer, I will build a company. And that was the trend they built the company around. Fast forward, it's stock that is trading at $80 a piece. >> Yeah. >> To four billion plus in market. >> Yeah and I think the other thing I would just add, just riffing on that, is that cloud helps. Because where Mongo DB horizontally scales-- >> Elastic. >> The old critics were saying, thinking vertical scale. >> Correct. >> Cloud really helps that. >> Absolutely, absolutely. Cloud is our elastic resources, right? You turn it out and you turn it down. What we found in the first, as you know in the last two to three years journey of 1.0, 2.0, that we were having a great reception with Mongo DB deployments and again, consolidate your gains towards Mongo so that was the second vector, making Datos get scale out for Mongo DB deployments. Number three, which is really my most favorite was really around multi cloud is here, right? No enterprise is going to really, bet only on one form of Amazon or one form of Google Cloud, they're going to bet it across these multiple clouds, right? We were always on Amazon, Google. We now announced Datos natively available on Amazon, so now if you have enterprise customers doing NoSQL applications in Amazon, you can protect that data natively to the cloud, being the Azure cloud. >> So which clouds are you guys supporting now with 3.0? Can you just give the list? >> Yep, yep. We supported Amazon from very early days, AWS. Majority of customers are on Amazon. Number two is Google Cloud, we have a great relationship with Google Cloud team, very entrepreneurial people also. And number three's Azure. The fourth, which is sort of a hidden Trojan horse is Oracle Cloud. We also announced Datos on Oracle Cloud. Why, you may ask? Because if you look at, again, NoSQL and data stacks in Cassandra, we saw a very healthy ecosystem building for Cassandra and Oracle Cloud, for obvious reasons. It was very good for us to follow that tailwind. >> Interestingly I was just at Oracle yesterday for a briefing, and I'm not going to reveal any confidential information, because it's all on the record. They're heavily getting to cloud native. They have to. >> They have to. There's no choice. They cannot be like tiptoeing, they have to go all in. >> And microservices are a big thing. This is something that you guys now have focus on. Talk about the microservices. How does that fit in? Because you look at Kubernetes, Kubernetes is becoming that kind of TCPIP moment for the cloud world or TCPIP powered networked and created inter working. The inter cloud or the multi cloud relationship? >> Correct, all the cloud native. >> Kubernetes is becoming that core catalyst. Got containers on one side, service meshes on the other. This brings in the data equation, stateful applications, stateless applications, this is going to change the game for developers. >> Absolutely. >> Actually now you have a backup equation, how do you know what to back up? >> Correct. >> What's the data? >> Correct. >> What's the impact? >> Yeah. So the announcement that we announced, just to cover that quickly, is we were seeing that trend. If you look at these developers or these DBAs or data base admins who are going to the cloud and racing to the cloud? They're not deploying OVA files. They're not deploying, as you said, IP network files, right? They want to deploy these as containerized applications. So running Mongo as a Docker container or Cassandra as a Docker container or Couch as a Docker container and you cannot go to them as a data management product as an age old mechanism of various bits and bytes. So we announced two things, Datos is now available as a Docker container, so you can just get a Docker file and run your way. And number two is we can also protect your NoSQL applications that are Dockerized or that are containerized, right? And that's really our first step into what you're seeing with Amazon EKS, right? Elastic Kubernetes Service. If you saw NetApp announced yesterday the acquisition of Kubernetes as a service, right? And so our next step, now that we've enabled Docker container of Datos, is to how do we bring Kubernetes as a service on top of Docker because Docker to deploy, orchestrate, manage that by itself is really still a challenge. >> Yeah containers is the stepping stone to orchestration. >> Correct, correct. >> You need Kubernetes to orchestrate the containers. >> That is correct, that is correct. >> Alright so summarize the announcements. If you had to boil this down, what's the 3.0? >> So if I were to sort come back and give you sort of the headline message, it is really our release to go crack open into the Fortune 500, Global 2000 enterprises. So if you remember, 60% of our customers are already what we call it internally, R2K, global 2000 customers so Datos, 60% of our customers who are large Fortune 500 customers. >> They're running mission critical? >> They're mission critical, no support applications. >> So you're supporting mission critical applications? >> Absolutely, some of our biggest customers, ACL Worldwide, one of the largest financial leading organization. Home Depot, that we have talked about in the past, right? Palo Alto Networks, the worlds largest cloud security networking company, right? If you look at these organizations they are running cloud native applications today. And so this release is really our double down into cracking open the Global 2000 enterprises and really staying focused at that market. >> And multi cloud is critical for you guys? >> Oh, absolutely. Any enterprise software company without, especially a data company, right? At the end of the day, it's all about data. >> Tarun, talk about why multi cloud, at some point. I'd love to get your expert opinion on this because you know Kubernetes, you see what's coming around the corner with service meshes and all this cool stuff because it impacts the infrastructure. With multi cloud, certainly what everyone's asking about, hybrid and multi cloud. Why is multi cloud important? What's the impact of multi cloud? >> Great question, John. You know, I think it's rooted in sort of three key reasons, right? Number one, if you look at what enterprises did back in the day, right history repeats itself, right? They never betted only on IBM servers. They bought Dell servers, they bought HP servers. Never anybody betted only on ESX as the virtual hypervisor platform. They betted on KBM and others, right? Similarly if you look at these enterprises, the ones that we talked about, Palo Alto Networks, they're going to run some of the applications natively on Amazon but they want DR in Google Cloud so think about a business use case being across clouds. So that's the one, right? I want to run some applications in Amazon because of elasticity, ease of use, orchestration but I want to keep my DR in a different site but I don't want to a colo, right? I want to do another cloud, so that's one. Number two is some of your application developers are, you know, in different regions, right? You want to enable sort of different cloud sites for them, right? So it's just locality, would be more of a reason and number three which is actually, probably I think the most important, is if you look at Amazon and what they have done with the book business, what they've done with others, e-commerce organizations like eBay, like Home Depot, like Foot Locker, they're very wary of betting the farm on a retail organization. Fundamentally Amazon is a retail organization, right? So they will go back, their use cases on Google cloud, they'll go back their use cases on Azure cloud so it's like vertical. Which vertical is prone or more applicable to a particular cloud, if that make sense? >> And so having multi vendors been around for a while in the enterprise, so multi vendor just translates to multi cloud? >> There you go, yes, yes. >> How about what's goin' on with you guys? Next week is Microsoft Ignite, their big cloud show from Microsoft. You guys have a relationship with them. In November you announced a partnership. >> Correct. >> Rubrik and you guys are doing that, so what's going on with them? You're co-selling together? Are they joint developing? What's the update? >> Ignite, so Microsoft, I'll give an update on Microsoft and then Ignite. As you know, John Thompson is on our board and you know fundamentally the product that we have built, Azure team, working with them, we have come to realize that it's a great product to bring data to the cloud. >> Right. >> And we have a very good, strong product relationship with Microsoft, we have a co-sell meaning their reps can sell Rubrik and get quota retirement, that's massive, right? Think for both the companies, right? And companies don't make those decisions, John, lightly. Those decisions are made very strictly. >> Quota relief is great. >> It's huge. >> It's a sales force for you guys. >> Exactly, yep. For us, specifically on Ignite, with this release we announced Azure. We worked very closely with the Azure storage division. When we pitched them, hey we are now, Datos is available on Azure, the respect that we got was amazing. We had a Microsoft quote in our press release. At Ignite next week we have dedicated sessions talking about NoSQL back ups on Microsoft, natively being protected on Azure Cloud. It's good for them, good for us, huge announcement next week. >> That's good. You guys have done the work in the cloud and it's interesting, early cloud adopters get some dividends on that. Just to summarize the chat here, if you had to talk to customer who's watching or interested and sees all this competition out there, a lot of noise in the industry, how would you summarize your value proposition? What's the value that you're bringing to the table? How do you guys compete on that value? Why Datos? >> Perfect, thank you. It's, again, simple order in one to three. Number one, we're helping you accelerate journey to the cloud. Right, you want to go the cloud, we understand Fortune 500 enterprises want to race to the cloud. You don't want to race without protection, without data management. It's your data, it needs to be in your control so that's one. We're helping you race to the cloud, yet keeping your data in your hands. Number two, you are buying a truly cloud native software not a software that was built 20 years ago and shrink wrapped into cloud. This is a product built into technologies which are cloud native, right? Elasticity, you can scale up Datos, you can scale down Datos, just like Amazon resources so you're truly buying an elastic technologies rooted data management product. And number three, you know if you really look at cloud, cloud to you as a customer is all about, hey can I build, not lift and shift, cloud native. And you're adopting these new technologies, you don't want to not think about protection, management, DR, those critical business use cases. >> And thinking differently about cloud operations is critical. Great to see you Tarun. Thanks for coming on and sharing the news on Datos 3.0, appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto Studios with the general manager of Datos IO, now part of Rubrik, formerly the CEO of Datos, Tarun Thaker, thanks for watching. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching theCUBE. (uplifting music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From downtown San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering RSA North America 2018. Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at RSA's North American Conference 2018 at downtown San Francisco. 40,000 plus people talking about security. Security continues to be an important topic, an increasingly important topic, and a lot more complex with the, having a public cloud, hybrid cloud, all these API's and connected data sources. So, it's really an interesting topic, it continues to get complex. There is no right answer, but there's a lot of little answers to help you get kind of closer to nirvana. And we're excited to have Misha Govshteyn. He's the co-founder and SVP of Alert Logic, CUBE alumni, it's been a couple years since we've seen you, Misha, great to see you again. >> That's right, I'm glad to be back, thank you. >> Yeah, so since we've seen you last, nothing has happened more than the dominance of public cloud and they continue to eat up-- >> I think I predicted it on my past visits. >> Did you predict it? Wow that's good. >> But I think it happened. >> But it's certainly happening, right. Amazon's AWS' run rate is 20 billion last reported. Google's making moves. >> Their conference is bigger than ours right now. >> Is it? >> That's 45,000 people. >> Yeah, it's 45,000, re:Invent, it's nuts, it's crazy. and then obviously Microsoft's making big moves, as is Google cloud. So, what do you see from the client's perspective as the dominance of public cloud continues to grow, yet they still have stuff they have to keep inside? We have our GDPR regs are going to hit in about a month. >> Well one thing's for sure is, it's not getting any easier, right? Because I think cloud is turning things upside down and it's making things disruptive, right, so there's a lot of people that are sitting there and looking at their security programs, and asking themselves, "Does this stuff still work? "When more and more of my workloads "are going to cloud environments? "Does security have to change?" And the answer is obviously, it does but it always has to change because the adversaries are getting better as well, right. >> Right. >> There's no shortage of things for people to worry about. You know when I talk to security practitioners, the big thing I always hear is, "I'm having a good year if I don't get fired." >> Well it almost feels like it's inevitable, right? It's almost like you're going to, it seems like you're going to get hit. At some way, shape, or form you're going to get hit. So it's almost, you know how fast can you catch it? How do you react? >> That's a huge change from five years ago, right? Five years ago we were still kind of living in denial thinking that we can stop this stuff. Now it's all about detection and response and how does your answer to the response process works? That's the reason why, you know last year, I think we saw a whole bunch of noise about, you know machine learning and anomaly detection, and AI everywhere and a whole lot of next-generation antivirus products. This year, it seems like a lot of it is, a lot of the conversation is, "What do I do with all this stuff? "How do I make use of it?" >> Well then how do you leverage the massive investment that the public cloud people are making? So, you know, love James Hamilton's Tuesday night show and he talks about just the massive investments Amazon is making in networking, in security, and you know, he's got so many resources that he can bring to bear, to the benefit of people on that cloud. So where does the line? How do I take advantage of that as a customer? And then where are the holes that I need to augment with other types of solutions? >> You know here's the way I think about it. We had to go through this process at Alert Logic internally as well. Because we obviously are a fairly large IT organization, so we have 20 petabytes of data that we manage. So at some point we had to sit down and say, "Are we're going to keep managing things the way we have been "or are we going to overhaul the whole thing?" So, I think what I would do is I would watch where my infrastructure goes, right. If my infrastructure is still on-prem, keep investing in what you've been doing before, get it better, right? But if you're seeing more and more of your infrastructure move to the cloud, I think it's a good time to think about blowing it up and starting over again, right? Because when you rebuild it, you can build it right, and you can build it using some of the native platform offerings that AWS and Azure and GCP offer. You can work with somebody like Alert Logic. There's others as well right, to harness those abilities. I'll go out on a limb and say I can build a more secure environment now in a cloud than I ever could on-prem, right. But that requires rethinking a bunch of stuff, right. >> And then the other really important thing is you said the top, the conversation has changed. It's not necessarily about being 100% you know locked down. It's really incident response, and really, it's a business risk trade-off decision. Ultimately it's an investment, and it's kind of like insurance. You can't invest infinite resources in security, and you don't want to just stay at home and not go outside. Now that's not going to get it done. So ultimately, it's trade-offs. It's making very significant trade-off decisions as to where's the investment? How much investment? When is the investment then hit a plateau where the ROI is not there anymore? So how do people think through that? Because, the end of the day there's one person saying, "God, we need more, more, more." You know, anything is bad. At the other hand, you just can't use every nickel you have on security. >> So I'll give you two ends of the spectrum right, and on one end are those companies that are moving a lot of their infrastructure to the cloud and they're rethinking how they're going to do security. For them, the real answer becomes it's not just the investment in technology, and investing into better getting information from my cloud providers, getting a better security layer in place. Some of it is architecture right, and some of the basics right, there's thousands of applications running in most enterprises. Each one of those applications on the cloud, could be in its own virtual private cloud, right. So if it gets broken into, only one domino falls down. You don't have this scenario where the entire network falls down, because you can easily move laterally. If you're doing things right in the cloud, you're solving that problem architecturally, right. Now, aside from the cloud, I think the biggest shift we're seeing now, is towards kind of focusing on outcomes, right. You have your technology stack, but really it's all about people, analytics, data. What do you, how do you make sense of all this stuff? And this is classic I think, with the Target breach and some of the classic breaches we've seen, all the technology in the world, right? They had all the tools they needed. The real thing that broke down is analytics and people. >> Right, and people. And we hear time and time again where people had, like you said, had the architecture in place, had the systems in the place, and somebody mis-configured a switch. Or I interviewed a gal who did a live social hack at Black Hat, just using some Instagram pictures and some information on your browser. No technology, just went in through the front door, said, you know, hey, "I'm trying to get the company picnic "site up, can you please test this URL?" She's got a 100% hit rate! But I think it's really important, because as you said, you guys offer not only software solutions, but also services to help people actually be successful in implementing security. >> And the big question is, if somebody does that to you, can you really block it? And the answer a lot of times is, you can't. So the next battlefront is all about can you identify that kind of breach happening, right? Can you identify abnormal activity that starts to happen? You know, going back to the Equifax breach, right, one of the abnormal things that happened that they should've seen and for some reason didn't, you know, 30 web shells were stood up. Which is the telltale sign of, maybe you don't know how you got broken into, but because there's a web shell in your environment you know somebody's controlling your servers remotely, that should be one of those indicators that, I don't know how it happened, I don't know maybe I missed it and I didn't see the initial attack, but there's definitely somebody on a network poking around. There's still time, right? There's, you know for most companies, it takes about a hundred days on average, to steal the data. I think the latest research is if you can find the breach in less than a day, you eliminate 96% of the impact. That's a pretty big number right? That means that if you, the faster you respond, the better off you are. And most people, I think when you ask 'em, and you ask 'em, "Honestly assess your ability to quickly detect, respond, eradicate the threat." A lot of them will say, "It depends" But really the answer is "Not really." >> Right, 'cause the other, the sad stat that's similar to that one, is usually it takes many, many days, months, weeks, to even know that you've been breached, to figure out the pattern, that you can even start, you know, the investigation and the fixing. >> Somewhat not surprising, right? I don't think there's that many Security Operation Centers out there, right? There's not, you know, not every company has a SOC right? Not every company can afford a SOC. I think the latest number is, for enterprises, right, this is Fortune 2000, right, 15% of them have a SOC. What are the other 85% doing? You know, are they buying a slice of a SOC somewhere else? That's the service that we offer, but I think, suffice to say, there's not enough security people watching all this data to make sense of it right. That's the biggest battle I think going forward. We can't make enough people doing that, that requires a lot of analytics, right. >> Which really then begs, for the standalone single enterprise, that they really need help, right? They're not going to be able to hire the best of the best for their individual company. They're not going to be able to leverage you know best-in-breed, Which I think is kind of an interesting part of the whole open-source ethos, knowing that the smartest brains aren't necessarily in your four walls. That you need to leverage people outside those four walls. So, as it continues to morph, what do you see changing now? What are you looking forward to here at RSA 2018? >> So I made some big predictions five years ago, so I'll say you know, five years from now, I think we're going to see a lot more companies outsource major parts of their security right, and that's just because you can't do it all in-house right. There's got to be a lot more specialization. There's still people today buying AI products right, and having machine learning models they invest in to, there's no company I'm aware of, unless they're, you know, maybe the top five financial firms out there, that should have a, you know, security focused data scientist on staff, right? And if you have somebody like that in your environment, you're probably not spending money the right way, right. So, I think security is going to get outsourced in a pretty big way. We're going to focus on outcomes more and more. I think the question is not going to be, "What algorithm are you using to identify this breach?" The question is going to be, "How good are your identifying breaches?" Period. And some of the companies that offer those outcomes are going to grow very rapidly. And some of the companies that offer just, you know, picks and shovels, are going to probably not do nearly as well. >> Right. >> So five years from now, I'll come back and we'll talk about it then. >> Well, the other big thing, that's going to be happening in a big way five years from now, is IoT and IIoT and 5G. So, the size of the attacked surface, the opportunities to breach-- >> The data volume. >> The data volume, and the impact. You know it's not necessarily stealing credit cards, it's taking control of somebody's vehicle, moving down the freeway. So, you know, the implications are only going to get higher. >> We collect a lot of logs from our customers. Usually, the log footprint, grows at three times the rate of our revenue and customers, right. So, you know, thank god-- >> The log, the log-- >> The log volume grows-- >> volume that you're tracking for a customer, grows at three times your revenue for that customer? >> That's right. I mean, they're not growing at three times that rate, annually right, but annually, you know, we've clocked anywhere between 200% to 300% growth in data that we collect from them, IoT makes that absolutely explode, right. You know, if every device out there, if you actually are watching it, and if you have any chance of stopping the breaches on IoT networks, you got to collect a lot of that data, that's the fuel for a lot of the machine learning models, because you can't put human eyes on small RTUs and you know, in factories. That means even more data. >> Right, well and you know the model that we've seen in financial services and ad-tech, in terms of, you know, an increasing amount of the transactions are going to happen automatically, with no human intervention, right, it's hardwired stuff. >> So I think it's that balance between data size and data volume, analytics, but most important, what do you feed the humans that are sitting on top of it? Can you feed them just the right signal to know what's a breach and what's just noise? That's the hardest part. >> Right, and can you get enough good ones? >> That's right. >> Underneath your own, underneath your own shell, which is probably, "No", well, hopefully. >> I think building this from scratch for every company is madness, right. There's a handful of companies out there that can pull it off, but I think ultimately everybody will realize, you know, I'm a big audio nerd so I Looked it up, right, you used to build all of your own speakers, right. You'd buy a cabinet and you'd buy some tools, and you would build all the stuff. Now you go to the store and you buy an audio system, right? >> Right, yeah, well at least audio, you had, speakers are interesting 'cause there's a lot of mechanical interpretations about how to take that signal and to make sound, but if you're making CDs you know you got to go, with the standard right? You buy Sonos now, and Sonos is a fully integrated system. What is Sonos for security, right? It doesn't exist yet. And that's, I think that's where Security as a Service is going. Security as a Service should be something you subscribe to that gives you a set of outcomes for your business, and I think that's the only way to consume this stuff. It's too complex for somebody to integrate from best-of-breed products and assemble it just the right way. I think the parallels are going to be exactly the same. I'm not building my car either, right? I'm going to buy one. Alright Misha, well, thanks for the update, and hopefully we'll see you before five years, maybe in a couple and get an update. >> We'll do some checkpoints along the way. >> Alright. Alright, he's Misha, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE from RSA North America 2018 in downtown, San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (techno music)