(light music) (airy white noise rumbling) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. We're here, day four of our coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. There's been about, we've heard, north of 55,000 folks here in person. We're seeing only a fraction of that but it's packed in the expo center. We're at the Venetian Expo, Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. Dave, we've had such great conversations as we always do on theCUBE. With the AWS ecosystem, we're going to be talking with another partner on that ecosystem and what they're doing to innovate together next. >> Well, we know security is the number one topic on IT practitioners, mine, CIOs, CISOs. We also know that they don't have the bench strength, that's why they look to manage service providers, manage service security providers. It's a growing topic, we've talked about it. We talked about it at re:Inforce earlier this year. I think it was July, actually, and August, believe it or not, not everybody was at the Cape. It was pretty well attended conference and that's their security focus conference, exclusive on security. But there's a lot of security here too. >> Lot of security, we're going to be talking about that next. We have two guests from Capgemini joining us. Mike Wasielewski, the head of cloud security, and NextGen secure architectures, welcome Mike. Anne Saunders also joins us, the Director of Cybersecurity Technology Partnerships at Capgemini, welcome Anne. >> Thank you. >> Dave: Hey guys. >> So, day four of the show, how you feeling? >> Anne: Pretty good. >> Mike: It's a long show. >> It is a long, and it's still jamming in here. Normally on the last day, it dwindles down. Not here. >> No, the foot traffic around the booth and around the totality of this expo floor has been amazing, I think. >> It really has. Anne, I want to start with you. Capgemini making some moves in the waves in the cloud and cloud security spaces. Talk to us about what Cap's got going on there. >> Well, we actually have a variety of things going on. Very much partner driven. The SOC Essentials offering that Mike's going to talk about shortly is the kind of the starter offer where we're going to build from and build out from. SOC Essentials is definitely critical for establishing that foundation. A lot of good stuff coming along with partners. Since I manage the partners, I'm kind of keen on who we get involved with and how we work with them to build out value and focus on our overall cloud security strategy. Mike, you want to talk about SOC Essentials? >> Yeah, well, no, I mean, I think at Capgemini, we really say cybersecurity is part of our DNA and so as we look at what we do in the cloud, you'll find that security has always been an underpinning to a lot of what we deliver, whether it's on the DevSecOps services, migration services, stuff like that. But what we're really trying to do is be intentional about how we approach the security piece of the cloud in different ways, right? Traditional infrastructure, you mentioned the totality of security vendors here and at re:Inforce. We're really seeing that you have to approach it differently. So we're bringing together the right partners. We're using what's part of our DNA to really be able to drive the next generation of security inside those clouds for our clients and customers. So as Anne was talking about, we have a new service called the Capgemini Cloud SOC Essentials, and we've really brought our partners to bear, in this case Trend Micro, really bringing a lot of their intelligence and building off of what they do so that we can help customers. Services can be pretty expensive, right, when you go for the high end, or if you have to try to run one yourself, there's a lot of time, I think you mentioned earlier, right, the people's benches. It's really hard to have a really good cybersecurity people in those smaller businesses. So what we're trying to do is we're really trying to help companies, whether you're the really big buyers of the world or some of the smaller ones, right? We want to be able to give you the visibility and ability to deliver to your customers securely. So that's how we're approaching security now and we're cloud SOC Essentials, the new thing that we're announcing while we were here is really driving out of. >> When I came out of re:Invent, when you do these events, you get this Kool-Aid injection and after a while you're like hm, what did I learn? And one of the things that struck me in talking to people is you've got the shared responsibility model that the cloud has sort of created and I know there's complexities across cloud but let's just keep it at cloud generically for a moment. And then you've got the CISO, the AppDev, AppSecDev group is being asked to do a lot. They're kind of being dragged into security that's really not their wheelhouse and then you've got audit which is like the last line of defense. And so one of the things that struck me at re:Inforce is like, okay, Amazon, great job for their portion of the shared responsibility model but I didn't hear a lot in terms of making the CISO's life easier and I'm guessing that's where you guys come in. I wonder if you could talk about that trend, that conceptual layers that I just laid out and where you guys fit. >> Mike: Sure, so I think first and foremost, I always go back to a quote from, I think it's attributed to Peter Drucker, whether that's right or wrong, who knows? But culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And I think what we've seen in our conversations with whether you're talking to the CISO, the application team, the AppDev team, wherever throughout the organization, we really see that culture is what's going to drive success or failure of security in the org, and so what we do is we really do bring that totality of perspective. We're not just cloud, not just security, not just AppDev. We can really bring across the totality of the Capgemini estate. So that when we go, and you're right, a CISO says, I'm having a hard time getting the app people to deliver what I need. If you just come from a security perspective, you're right, that's what's going to happen. So what we try to do is so, we've got a great DevSecOps service, for example in the cloud where we do that. We bring all the perspectives together, how do we align KPIs? That's a big problem, I think, for what you're seeing, making CISO's lives easier, is about making sure that the app team KPIs are aligned with the CISO's but also the CISO's KPIs are aligned with the app teams. And by doing that, we have had really great success in a number of organizations by giving them the tools then and the people on our side to be able to make those alignments at the business level, to drive the right business outcome, to drive the right security outcome, the right application outcome. That's where I think we've really come to play. >> Absolutely, and I will say from a partnering perspective, what's key in supporting that strategy is we will learn from our partners, we lean on our partners to understand what the trends they're seeing and where they're having an impact with regards to supporting the CISO and supporting the overall security strategy within a company. I mean, they're on the cutting edge. We do a lot to track their technology roadmaps. We do a lot to track how they build their buyer personas and what issues they're dealing with and what issues they're prepared to deal with regards to where they're investing and who's investing in them. A lot of strategy around which partner to bring in and support, how we're going to address the challenges, the CISO and the IT teams are having to kind of support that overall. Security is a part of everything, DNA kind of strategy. >> Yeah, do you have a favorite example, Anne, of a partner that came in with Capgemini, helped a customer really be able to do what Capgemini is doing and that is, have cybersecurity be actually part of their DNA when there's so many challenges, the skills gap. Any favorite example that really you think articulates how you're able to enable organizations to achieve just that? >> Anne: Well, actually the SOC Essentials offering that we're rolling out is a prime example of that. I mean, we work very, very closely with Trend on all fronts with regards to developing it. It's one of those completely collaborative from day one to going to the customer and that it's almost that seamless connectivity and just partnering at such a strategic level is a great example of how it's done right, and when it's done right, how successful it can be. >> Dave: Why Trend Micro? Because I mean, I'm sure you've seen, I think that's Optiv, has the eye test with all the tools and you talk to CISOs, they're like really trying to consolidate those tools. So I presume there's a portfolio play there, but tell us, tell the audience a little bit more about why Trend Micro and I mean your branding with them, why those guys? >> Well, it goes towards the technology, of course, and all the development they've done and their position within AWS and how they address assuring security for our clients who are moving onto and running their estates on AWS. There's such a long heritage with regards to their technology platform and what they've developed, that deep experience, that kind of the strength of the technology because of the longevity they've had and where they sit within their domain. I try to call partners out by their domain and their area of expertise is part of the reason, I mean. >> Yeah, I think another big part of it is Gartner is expecting, I think they published this out in the next three years, we expect to see another consolidation both inside of the enterprises as well as, I look back a couple years, when Palo Alto went on a very nice spending spree, right? And put together a lot of really great companies that built their Prisma platform. So what I think one of the reasons we picked Trend in this particular case is as we look forward for our customers and our clients, not just having point solutions, right? This isn't just about endpoint protection, this isn't just about security posture management. This is really who can take the totality of the customer's problems and deliver on the right outcomes from a single platform, and so when we look at companies like Trend, like Palo, some of the bigger partners for us, that's where we try to focus. They're definitely best in breed and we bring those to our customers too for certain things. But as we look to the future, I think really finding those partners that are going to be able to solve a swath of problems at the right price point for their customers, that is where I think we see the industry moving. >> Dave: And maybe be around as an independent company. Was that a factor as well? I mean, you see Thoma Bravo buying up all his hiring companies and right, so, and maybe they're trying to create something that could be competitive, but you're saying Trend Micros there, so. >> Well I think as Anne mentioned, the 30 year heritage, I think, of Trend Micro really driving this and I've done work with them in various past things. There's also a big part of just the people you like, the people that are good to work with, that are really trying to be customer obsessed, going back right, at an AWS event, the ones that get the cloud tend to be able to follow those Amazon LPs as well, right, just kind of naturally, and so I think when you look at the Trend Micros of the world, that's where that kind of cloud native piece comes out and I like working with that. >> In this environment, the macro environment, lets talk a bit, earning season, it's really mixed. I mean you're seeing some really good earnings, some mixed earnings, some good earnings with cautious guidance. So nobody really (indistinct), and it was for a period time there was a thinking that security was non-discretionary and it's clearly non-discretionary, but the CISO, she or he, doesn't have unlimited budgets, right? So what are you seeing in terms of how are customers dealing with this challenging macro environment? Is it through tools consolidation? Is that a play that's going on? What are you seeing in the customer base? >> Anne: I see ways, and we're working through this right now where we're actually weaving cybersecurity in at the very beginning of how we're designing offers across our entire offer portfolio, not just the cybersecurity business. So taking that approach in the long run will help contain costs and our hope, and we're already seeing it, is it's actually helping change the perception that security's that cost center and that final obstacle you have to get over and it's going to throw your margins off and all that sort of stuff. >> Dave: I like that, its at least is like a security cover charge. You're not getting in unless we do the security thing. >> Exactly, a security cover charge, that's what you should call it. >> Yeah. >> Like it. >> Another piece though, you mentioned earlier about making CISO's life easier, right? And I think, as Anne did a really absolutely true about building it in, not to the security stack but application developers, they want visibility they want observability, they want to do it right. They want CI/CD pipeline that can give them confidence in their security. So should the CISO have a budget issue, right? And they can't necessarily afford, but the application team as they're looking at what products they want to purchase, can I get a SaaS or a DaaS, right? The static or dynamic application security testing in my product up front and if the app team buys into that methodology, the CISO convinces them, yes, this is important. Now I've got two budgets to pull from, and in the end I end up with a cheaper, a lower cost of a service. So I think that's another way that we see with like DevSecOps and a few other services, that building in on day one that you mentioned. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Getting both teams involved. >> Dave: That's interesting, Mike, because that's the alignment that you were talking about earlier in the KPIs and you're not a tech vendor saying, buy my product, you guys have deep consultancy backgrounds. >> Anne: And the customer appreciates that. >> Yeah. >> Anne: They see us as looking out for their best interest when we're trying to support them and help them and bringing it to the table at the very beginning as something that is there and we're conscientious of, just helps them in the long run and I think, they're seeing that, they appreciate that. >> Dave: Yeah, you can bring best practice around measurements, alignment, business process, stuff like that. Maybe even some industry expertise which you're not typically going to get from a product company. >> Well, one thing you just mentioned that I love talking about with Capgemini is the industry expertise, right? So when you look at systems integrators, there are a lot of really, really good ones. To say otherwise would be foolish. But Capgemini with our acquisition of Altran, a couple years ago, I think think it was, right? How many other GSIs or SIs are actually building silicon for IoT chips? So IoT's huge right now, the intelligent industry moving forward is going to drive a lot of those business outcomes that people are looking for. Who else can say we've built an autonomous vehicle, Capgemini can. Who can say that we've built the IoT devices from the ground up? We know not just how to integrate them into AWS, into the IoT services in the cloud, but to build and have that secure development for the firmware and all and that's where I think our customers really look to us as being those industry experts and being able to bring that totality of our business to bear for what they need to do to achieve their objectives to deliver to their customer. >> Dave: That's interesting. I mean, using silicon as a differentiator to drive a lot of business outcomes and security. >> Mike: Absolutely. >> I mean you see what Amazon's doing in silicon, Look at Apple. Look at what Tesla's doing with silicon. >> Dave: That's where you're seeing a lot of people start focusing 'cause not everybody can do it. >> Yeah. >> It's hard. >> Right. >> It's hard. >> And you'll see some interesting announcements from us and some interesting information and trends that we'll be driving because of where we're placed and what we have going around security and intelligent industry overall. We have a lot of investment going on there right now and again, from the partner perspective, it's an ecosystem of key partners that collectively work together to kind of create a seamless security posture for an intelligent industry initiative with these companies that we're working with. >> So last question, probably toughest question, and that's to give us a 30 second like elevator pitch or a billboard and I'm going to ask you, Anne, specifically about the SOC Essentials program powered by Trend Micro. Why should organizations look to that? >> Organizations should move to it or work with us on it because we have the expertise, we have the width and breadth to help them fill the gaps, be those eyes, be that team, the police behind it all, so to speak, and be the team behind them to make sure we're giving them the right information they need to actually act effectively on maintaining their security posture. >> Nice and then last question for you, Mike is that billboard, why should organizations in any industry work with Capgemini to help become an intelligent industrial player. >> Mike: Sure, so if you look at our board up top, right, we've got our tagline that says, "get the future you want." And that's what you're going to get with Capgemini. It's not just about selling a service, it's not just about what partners' right in reselling. We don't want that to be why you come to us. You, as a company have a vision and we will help you achieve that vision in a way that nobody else can because of our depth, because of the breadth that we have that's very hard to replicate. >> Awesome guys, that was great answers. Mike, Anne, thank you for spending some time with Dave and me on the program today talking about what's new with Capgemini. We'll be following this space. >> All right, thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (gentle light music)

(upbeat music) >> The stampede to cloud and massive VC investments has led to the emergence of a new generation of object store based data lakes. And with them two important trends, actually three important trends. First, a new category that combines data lakes and data warehouses aka the lakehouse is emerged as a leading contender to be the data platform of the future. And this novelty touts the ability to address data engineering, data science, and data warehouse workloads on a single shared data platform. The other major trend we've seen is query engines and broader data fabric virtualization platforms have embraced NextGen data lakes as platforms for SQL centric business intelligence workloads, reducing, or somebody even claim eliminating the need for separate data warehouses. Pretty bold. However, cloud data warehouses have added complimentary technologies to bridge the gaps with lakehouses. And the third is many, if not most customers that are embracing the so-called data fabric or data mesh architectures. They're looking at data lakes as a fundamental component of their strategies, and they're trying to evolve them to be more capable, hence the interest in lakehouse, but at the same time, they don't want to, or can't abandon their data warehouse estate. As such we see a battle royale is brewing between cloud data warehouses and cloud lakehouses. Is it possible to do it all with one cloud center analytical data platform? Well, we're going to find out. My name is Dave Vellante and welcome to the data platform's power panel on theCUBE. Our next episode in a series where we gather some of the industry's top analysts to talk about one of our favorite topics, data. In today's session, we'll discuss trends, emerging options, and the trade offs of various approaches and we'll name names. Joining us today are Sanjeev Mohan, who's the principal at SanjMo, Tony Baers, principal at dbInsight. And Doug Henschen is the vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank guys. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So it's early June and we're gearing up with two major conferences, there's several database conferences, but two in particular that were very interested in, Snowflake Summit and Databricks Data and AI Summit. Doug let's start off with you and then Tony and Sanjeev, if you could kindly weigh in. Where did this all start, Doug? The notion of lakehouse. And let's talk about what exactly we mean by lakehouse. Go ahead. >> Yeah, well you nailed it in your intro. One platform to address BI data science, data engineering, fewer platforms, less cost, less complexity, very compelling. You can credit Databricks for coining the term lakehouse back in 2020, but it's really a much older idea. You can go back to Cloudera introducing their Impala database in 2012. That was a database on top of Hadoop. And indeed in that last decade, by the middle of that last decade, there were several SQL on Hadoop products, open standards like Apache Drill. And at the same time, the database vendors were trying to respond to this interest in machine learning and the data science. So they were adding SQL extensions, the likes Hudi and Vertical we're adding SQL extensions to support the data science. But then later in that decade with the shift to cloud and object storage, you saw the vendor shift to this whole cloud, and object storage idea. So you have in the database camp Snowflake introduce Snowpark to try to address the data science needs. They introduced that in 2020 and last year they announced support for Python. You also had Oracle, SAP jumped on this lakehouse idea last year, supporting both the lake and warehouse single vendor, not necessarily quite single platform. Google very recently also jumped on the bandwagon. And then you also mentioned, the SQL engine camp, the Dremios, the Ahanas, the Starbursts, really doing two things, a fabric for distributed access to many data sources, but also very firmly planning that idea that you can just have the lake and we'll help you do the BI workloads on that. And then of course, the data lake camp with the Databricks and Clouderas providing a warehouse style deployments on top of their lake platforms. >> Okay, thanks, Doug. I'd be remiss those of you who me know that I typically write my own intros. This time my colleagues fed me a lot of that material. So thank you. You guys make it easy. But Tony, give us your thoughts on this intro. >> Right. Well, I very much agree with both of you, which may not make for the most exciting television in terms of that it has been an evolution just like Doug said. I mean, for instance, just to give an example when Teradata bought AfterData was initially seen as a hardware platform play. In the end, it was basically, it was all those after functions that made a lot of sort of big data analytics accessible to SQL. (clears throat) And so what I really see just in a more simpler definition or functional definition, the data lakehouse is really an attempt by the data lake folks to make the data lake friendlier territory to the SQL folks, and also to get into friendly territory, to all the data stewards, who are basically concerned about the sprawl and the lack of control in governance in the data lake. So it's really kind of a continuing of an ongoing trend that being said, there's no action without counter action. And of course, at the other end of the spectrum, we also see a lot of the data warehouses starting to edit things like in database machine learning. So they're certainly not surrendering without a fight. Again, as Doug was mentioning, this has been part of a continual blending of platforms that we've seen over the years that we first saw in the Hadoop years with SQL on Hadoop and data warehouses starting to reach out to cloud storage or should say the HDFS and then with the cloud then going cloud native and therefore trying to break the silos down even further. >> Now, thank you. And Sanjeev, data lakes, when we first heard about them, there were such a compelling name, and then we realized all the problems associated with them. So pick it up from there. What would you add to Doug and Tony? >> I would say, these are excellent points that Doug and Tony have brought to light. The concept of lakehouse was going on to your point, Dave, a long time ago, long before the tone was invented. For example, in Uber, Uber was trying to do a mix of Hadoop and Vertical because what they really needed were transactional capabilities that Hadoop did not have. So they weren't calling it the lakehouse, they were using multiple technologies, but now they're able to collapse it into a single data store that we call lakehouse. Data lakes, excellent at batch processing large volumes of data, but they don't have the real time capabilities such as change data capture, doing inserts and updates. So this is why lakehouse has become so important because they give us these transactional capabilities. >> Great. So I'm interested, the name is great, lakehouse. The concept is powerful, but I get concerned that it's a lot of marketing hype behind it. So I want to examine that a bit deeper. How mature is the concept of lakehouse? Are there practical examples that really exist in the real world that are driving business results for practitioners? Tony, maybe you could kick that off. >> Well, put it this way. I think what's interesting is that both data lakes and data warehouse that each had to extend themselves. To believe the Databricks hype it's that this was just a natural extension of the data lake. In point of fact, Databricks had to go outside its core technology of Spark to make the lakehouse possible. And it's a very similar type of thing on the part with data warehouse folks, in terms of that they've had to go beyond SQL, In the case of Databricks. There have been a number of incremental improvements to Delta lake, to basically make the table format more performative, for instance. But the other thing, I think the most dramatic change in all that is in their SQL engine and they had to essentially pretty much abandon Spark SQL because it really, in off itself Spark SQL is essentially stop gap solution. And if they wanted to really address that crowd, they had to totally reinvent SQL or at least their SQL engine. And so Databricks SQL is not Spark SQL, it is not Spark, it's basically SQL that it's adapted to run in a Spark environment, but the underlying engine is C++, it's not scale or anything like that. So Databricks had to take a major detour outside of its core platform to do this. So to answer your question, this is not mature because these are all basically kind of, even though the idea of blending platforms has been going on for well over a decade, I would say that the current iteration is still fairly immature. And in the cloud, I could see a further evolution of this because if you think through cloud native architecture where you're essentially abstracting compute from data, there is no reason why, if let's say you are dealing with say, the same basically data targets say cloud storage, cloud object storage that you might not apportion the task to different compute engines. And so therefore you could have, for instance, let's say you're Google, you could have BigQuery, perform basically the types of the analytics, the SQL analytics that would be associated with the data warehouse and you could have BigQuery ML that does some in database machine learning, but at the same time for another part of the query, which might involve, let's say some deep learning, just for example, you might go out to let's say the serverless spark service or the data proc. And there's no reason why Google could not blend all those into a coherent offering that's basically all triggered through microservices. And I just gave Google as an example, if you could generalize that with all the other cloud or all the other third party vendors. So I think we're still very early in the game in terms of maturity of data lakehouses. >> Thanks, Tony. So Sanjeev, is this all hype? What are your thoughts? >> It's not hype, but completely agree. It's not mature yet. Lakehouses have still a lot of work to do, so what I'm now starting to see is that the world is dividing into two camps. On one hand, there are people who don't want to deal with the operational aspects of vast amounts of data. They are the ones who are going for BigQuery, Redshift, Snowflake, Synapse, and so on because they want the platform to handle all the data modeling, access control, performance enhancements, but these are trade off. If you go with these platforms, then you are giving up on vendor neutrality. On the other side are those who have engineering skills. They want the independence. In other words, they don't want vendor lock in. They want to transform their data into any number of use cases, especially data science, machine learning use case. What they want is agility via open file formats using any compute engine. So why do I say lakehouses are not mature? Well, cloud data warehouses they provide you an excellent user experience. That is the main reason why Snowflake took off. If you have thousands of cables, it takes minutes to get them started, uploaded into your warehouse and start experimentation. Table formats are far more resonating with the community than file formats. But once the cost goes up of cloud data warehouse, then the organization start exploring lakehouses. But the problem is lakehouses still need to do a lot of work on metadata. Apache Hive was a fantastic first attempt at it. Even today Apache Hive is still very strong, but it's all technical metadata and it has so many different restrictions. That's why we see Databricks is investing into something called Unity Catalog. Hopefully we'll hear more about Unity Catalog at the end of the month. But there's a second problem. I just want to mention, and that is lack of standards. All these open source vendors, they're running, what I call ego projects. You see on LinkedIn, they're constantly battling with each other, but end user doesn't care. End user wants a problem to be solved. They want to use Trino, Dremio, Spark from EMR, Databricks, Ahana, DaaS, Frink, Athena. But the problem is that we don't have common standards. >> Right. Thanks. So Doug, I worry sometimes. I mean, I look at the space, we've debated for years, best of breed versus the full suite. You see AWS with whatever, 12 different plus data stores and different APIs and primitives. You got Oracle putting everything into its database. It's actually done some interesting things with MySQL HeatWave, so maybe there's proof points there, but Snowflake really good at data warehouse, simplifying data warehouse. Databricks, really good at making lakehouses actually more functional. Can one platform do it all? >> Well in a word, I can't be best at breed at all things. I think the upshot of and cogen analysis from Sanjeev there, the database, the vendors coming out of the database tradition, they excel at the SQL. They're extending it into data science, but when it comes to unstructured data, data science, ML AI often a compromise, the data lake crowd, the Databricks and such. They've struggled to completely displace the data warehouse when it really gets to the tough SLAs, they acknowledge that there's still a role for the warehouse. Maybe you can size down the warehouse and offload some of the BI workloads and maybe and some of these SQL engines, good for ad hoc, minimize data movement. But really when you get to the deep service level, a requirement, the high concurrency, the high query workloads, you end up creating something that's warehouse like. >> Where do you guys think this market is headed? What's going to take hold? Which projects are going to fade away? You got some things in Apache projects like Hudi and Iceberg, where do they fit Sanjeev? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> So thank you, Dave. So I feel that table formats are starting to mature. There is a lot of work that's being done. We will not have a single product or single platform. We'll have a mixture. So I see a lot of Apache Iceberg in the news. Apache Iceberg is really innovating. Their focus is on a table format, but then Delta and Apache Hudi are doing a lot of deep engineering work. For example, how do you handle high concurrency when there are multiple rights going on? Do you version your Parquet files or how do you do your upcerts basically? So different focus, at the end of the day, the end user will decide what is the right platform, but we are going to have multiple formats living with us for a long time. >> Doug is Iceberg in your view, something that's going to address some of those gaps in standards that Sanjeev was talking about earlier? >> Yeah, Delta lake, Hudi, Iceberg, they all address this need for consistency and scalability, Delta lake open technically, but open for access. I don't hear about Delta lakes in any worlds, but Databricks, hearing a lot of buzz about Apache Iceberg. End users want an open performance standard. And most recently Google embraced Iceberg for its recent a big lake, their stab at having supporting both lakes and warehouses on one conjoined platform. >> And Tony, of course, you remember the early days of the sort of big data movement you had MapR was the most closed. You had Horton works the most open. You had Cloudera in between. There was always this kind of contest as to who's the most open. Does that matter? Are we going to see a repeat of that here? >> I think it's spheres of influence, I think, and Doug very much was kind of referring to this. I would call it kind of like the MongoDB syndrome, which is that you have... and I'm talking about MongoDB before they changed their license, open source project, but very much associated with MongoDB, which basically, pretty much controlled most of the contributions made decisions. And I think Databricks has the same iron cloud hold on Delta lake, but still the market is pretty much associated Delta lake as the Databricks, open source project. I mean, Iceberg is probably further advanced than Hudi in terms of mind share. And so what I see that's breaking down to is essentially, basically the Databricks open source versus the everything else open source, the community open source. So I see it's a very similar type of breakdown that I see repeating itself here. >> So by the way, Mongo has a conference next week, another data platform is kind of not really relevant to this discussion totally. But in the sense it is because there's a lot of discussion on earnings calls these last couple of weeks about consumption and who's exposed, obviously people are concerned about Snowflake's consumption model. Mongo is maybe less exposed because Atlas is prominent in the portfolio, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to bring up the little bit of controversy that we saw come out of the Snowflake earnings call, where the ever core analyst asked Frank Klutman about discretionary spend. And Frank basically said, look, we're not discretionary. We are deeply operationalized. Whereas he kind of poo-pooed the lakehouse or the data lake, et cetera, saying, oh yeah, data scientists will pull files out and play with them. That's really not our business. Do any of you have comments on that? Help us swing through that controversy. Who wants to take that one? >> Let's put it this way. The SQL folks are from Venus and the data scientists are from Mars. So it means it really comes down to it, sort that type of perception. The fact is, is that, traditionally with analytics, it was very SQL oriented and that basically the quants were kind of off in their corner, where they're using SaaS or where they're using Teradata. It's really a great leveler today, which is that, I mean basic Python it's become arguably one of the most popular programming languages, depending on what month you're looking at, at the title index. And of course, obviously SQL is, as I tell the MongoDB folks, SQL is not going away. You have a large skills base out there. And so basically I see this breaking down to essentially, you're going to have each group that's going to have its own natural preferences for its home turf. And the fact that basically, let's say the Python and scale of folks are using Databricks does not make them any less operational or machine critical than the SQL folks. >> Anybody else want to chime in on that one? >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. Python support in Snowflake is very nascent with all of Snowpark, all of the things outside of SQL, they're very much relying on partners too and make things possible and make data science possible. And it's very early days. I think the bottom line, what we're going to see is each of these camps is going to keep working on doing better at the thing that they don't do today, or they're new to, but they're not going to nail it. They're not going to be best of breed on both sides. So the SQL centric companies and shops are going to do more data science on their database centric platform. That data science driven companies might be doing more BI on their leagues with those vendors and the companies that have highly distributed data, they're going to add fabrics, and maybe offload more of their BI onto those engines, like Dremio and Starburst. >> So I've asked you this before, but I'll ask you Sanjeev. 'Cause Snowflake and Databricks are such great examples 'cause you have the data engineering crowd trying to go into data warehousing and you have the data warehousing guys trying to go into the lake territory. Snowflake has $5 billion in the balance sheet and I've asked you before, I ask you again, doesn't there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds? Does Snowflake go out and do M&A and maybe buy ad scale or a data mirror? Or is that just sort of a bandaid? What are your thoughts on that Sanjeev? >> I think semantic layer is the metadata. The business metadata is extremely important. At the end of the day, the business folks, they'd rather go to the business metadata than have to figure out, for example, like let's say, I want to update somebody's email address and we have a lot of overhead with data residency laws and all that. I want my platform to give me the business metadata so I can write my business logic without having to worry about which database, which location. So having that semantic layer is extremely important. In fact, now we are taking it to the next level. Now we are saying that it's not just a semantic layer, it's all my KPIs, all my calculations. So how can I make those calculations independent of the compute engine, independent of the BI tool and make them fungible. So more disaggregation of the stack, but it gives us more best of breed products that the customers have to worry about. >> So I want to ask you about the stack, the modern data stack, if you will. And we always talk about injecting machine intelligence, AI into applications, making them more data driven. But when you look at the application development stack, it's separate, the database is tends to be separate from the data and analytics stack. Do those two worlds have to come together in the modern data world? And what does that look like organizationally? >> So organizationally even technically I think it is starting to happen. Microservices architecture was a first attempt to bring the application and the data world together, but they are fundamentally different things. For example, if an application crashes, that's horrible, but Kubernetes will self heal and it'll bring the application back up. But if a database crashes and corrupts your data, we have a huge problem. So that's why they have traditionally been two different stacks. They are starting to come together, especially with data ops, for instance, versioning of the way we write business logic. It used to be, a business logic was highly embedded into our database of choice, but now we are disaggregating that using GitHub, CICD the whole DevOps tool chain. So data is catching up to the way applications are. >> We also have databases, that trans analytical databases that's a little bit of what the story is with MongoDB next week with adding more analytical capabilities. But I think companies that talk about that are always careful to couch it as operational analytics, not the warehouse level workloads. So we're making progress, but I think there's always going to be, or there will long be a separate analytical data platform. >> Until data mesh takes over. (all laughing) Not opening a can of worms. >> Well, but wait, I know it's out of scope here, but wouldn't data mesh say, hey, do take your best of breed to Doug's earlier point. You can't be best of breed at everything, wouldn't data mesh advocate, data lakes do your data lake thing, data warehouse, do your data lake, then you're just a node on the mesh. (Tony laughs) Now you need separate data stores and you need separate teams. >> To my point. >> I think, I mean, put it this way. (laughs) Data mesh itself is a logical view of the world. The data mesh is not necessarily on the lake or on the warehouse. I think for me, the fear there is more in terms of, the silos of governance that could happen and the silo views of the world, how we redefine. And that's why and I want to go back to something what Sanjeev said, which is that it's going to be raising the importance of the semantic layer. Now does Snowflake that opens a couple of Pandora's boxes here, which is one, does Snowflake dare go into that space or do they risk basically alienating basically their partner ecosystem, which is a key part of their whole appeal, which is best of breed. They're kind of the same situation that Informatica was where in the early 2000s, when Informatica briefly flirted with analytic applications and realized that was not a good idea, need to redouble down on their core, which was data integration. The other thing though, that raises the importance of and this is where the best of breed comes in, is the data fabric. My contention is that and whether you use employee data mesh practice or not, if you do employee data mesh, you need data fabric. If you deploy data fabric, you don't necessarily need to practice data mesh. But data fabric at its core and admittedly it's a category that's still very poorly defined and evolving, but at its core, we're talking about a common meta data back plane, something that we used to talk about with master data management, this would be something that would be more what I would say basically, mutable, that would be more evolving, basically using, let's say, machine learning to kind of, so that we don't have to predefine rules or predefine what the world looks like. But so I think in the long run, what this really means is that whichever way we implement on whichever physical platform we implement, we need to all be speaking the same metadata language. And I think at the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a lake, warehouse or a lakehouse, we need common metadata. >> Doug, can I come back to something you pointed out? That those talking about bringing analytic and transaction databases together, you had talked about operationalizing those and the caution there. Educate me on MySQL HeatWave. I was surprised when Oracle put so much effort in that, and you may or may not be familiar with it, but a lot of folks have talked about that. Now it's got nowhere in the market, that no market share, but a lot of we've seen these benchmarks from Oracle. How real is that bringing together those two worlds and eliminating ETL? >> Yeah, I have to defer on that one. That's my colleague, Holger Mueller. He wrote the report on that. He's way deep on it and I'm not going to mock him. >> I wonder if that is something, how real that is or if it's just Oracle marketing, anybody have any thoughts on that? >> I'm pretty familiar with HeatWave. It's essentially Oracle doing what, I mean, there's kind of a parallel with what Google's doing with AlloyDB. It's an operational database that will have some embedded analytics. And it's also something which I expect to start seeing with MongoDB. And I think basically, Doug and Sanjeev were kind of referring to this before about basically kind of like the operational analytics, that are basically embedded within an operational database. The idea here is that the last thing you want to do with an operational database is slow it down. So you're not going to be doing very complex deep learning or anything like that, but you might be doing things like classification, you might be doing some predictives. In other words, we've just concluded a transaction with this customer, but was it less than what we were expecting? What does that mean in terms of, is this customer likely to turn? I think we're going to be seeing a lot of that. And I think that's what a lot of what MySQL HeatWave is all about. Whether Oracle has any presence in the market now it's still a pretty new announcement, but the other thing that kind of goes against Oracle, (laughs) that they had to battle against is that even though they own MySQL and run the open source project, everybody else, in terms of the actual commercial implementation it's associated with everybody else. And the popular perception has been that MySQL has been basically kind of like a sidelight for Oracle. And so it's on Oracles shoulders to prove that they're damn serious about it. >> There's no coincidence that MariaDB was launched the day that Oracle acquired Sun. Sanjeev, I wonder if we could come back to a topic that we discussed earlier, which is this notion of consumption, obviously Wall Street's very concerned about it. Snowflake dropped prices last week. I've always felt like, hey, the consumption model is the right model. I can dial it down in when I need to, of course, the street freaks out. What are your thoughts on just pricing, the consumption model? What's the right model for companies, for customers? >> Consumption model is here to stay. What I would like to see, and I think is an ideal situation and actually plays into the lakehouse concept is that, I have my data in some open format, maybe it's Parquet or CSV or JSON, Avro, and I can bring whatever engine is the best engine for my workloads, bring it on, pay for consumption, and then shut it down. And by the way, that could be Cloudera. We don't talk about Cloudera very much, but it could be one business unit wants to use Athena. Another business unit wants to use some other Trino let's say or Dremio. So every business unit is working on the same data set, see that's critical, but that data set is maybe in their VPC and they bring any compute engine, you pay for the use, shut it down. That then you're getting value and you're only paying for consumption. It's not like, I left a cluster running by mistake, so there have to be guardrails. The reason FinOps is so big is because it's very easy for me to run a Cartesian joint in the cloud and get a $10,000 bill. >> This looks like it's been a sort of a victim of its own success in some ways, they made it so easy to spin up single note instances, multi note instances. And back in the day when compute was scarce and costly, those database engines optimized every last bit so they could get as much workload as possible out of every instance. Today, it's really easy to spin up a new node, a new multi node cluster. So that freedom has meant many more nodes that aren't necessarily getting that utilization. So Snowflake has been doing a lot to add reporting, monitoring, dashboards around the utilization of all the nodes and multi node instances that have spun up. And meanwhile, we're seeing some of the traditional on-prem databases that are moving into the cloud, trying to offer that freedom. And I think they're going to have that same discovery that the cost surprises are going to follow as they make it easy to spin up new instances. >> Yeah, a lot of money went into this market over the last decade, separating compute from storage, moving to the cloud. I'm glad you mentioned Cloudera Sanjeev, 'cause they got it all started, the kind of big data movement. We don't talk about them that much. Sometimes I wonder if it's because when they merged Hortonworks and Cloudera, they dead ended both platforms, but then they did invest in a more modern platform. But what's the future of Cloudera? What are you seeing out there? >> Cloudera has a good product. I have to say the problem in our space is that there're way too many companies, there's way too much noise. We are expecting the end users to parse it out or we expecting analyst firms to boil it down. So I think marketing becomes a big problem. As far as technology is concerned, I think Cloudera did turn their selves around and Tony, I know you, you talked to them quite frequently. I think they have quite a comprehensive offering for a long time actually. They've created Kudu, so they got operational, they have Hadoop, they have an operational data warehouse, they're migrated to the cloud. They are in hybrid multi-cloud environment. Lot of cloud data warehouses are not hybrid. They're only in the cloud. >> Right. I think what Cloudera has done the most successful has been in the transition to the cloud and the fact that they're giving their customers more OnRamps to it, more hybrid OnRamps. So I give them a lot of credit there. They're also have been trying to position themselves as being the most price friendly in terms of that we will put more guardrails and governors on it. I mean, part of that could be spin. But on the other hand, they don't have the same vested interest in compute cycles as say, AWS would have with EMR. That being said, yes, Cloudera does it, I think its most powerful appeal so of that, it almost sounds in a way, I don't want to cast them as a legacy system. But the fact is they do have a huge landed legacy on-prem and still significant potential to land and expand that to the cloud. That being said, even though Cloudera is multifunction, I think it certainly has its strengths and weaknesses. And the fact this is that yes, Cloudera has an operational database or an operational data store with a kind of like the outgrowth of age base, but Cloudera is still based, primarily known for the deep analytics, the operational database nobody's going to buy Cloudera or Cloudera data platform strictly for the operational database. They may use it as an add-on, just in the same way that a lot of customers have used let's say Teradata basically to do some machine learning or let's say, Snowflake to parse through JSON. Again, it's not an indictment or anything like that, but the fact is obviously they do have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think their greatest opportunity is with their existing base because that base has a lot invested and vested. And the fact is they do have a hybrid path that a lot of the others lack. >> And of course being on the quarterly shock clock was not a good place to be under the microscope for Cloudera and now they at least can refactor the business accordingly. I'm glad you mentioned hybrid too. We saw Snowflake last month, did a deal with Dell whereby non-native Snowflake data could access on-prem object store from Dell. They announced a similar thing with pure storage. What do you guys make of that? Is that just... How significant will that be? Will customers actually do that? I think they're using either materialized views or extended tables. >> There are data rated and residency requirements. There are desires to have these platforms in your own data center. And finally they capitulated, I mean, Frank Klutman is famous for saying to be very focused and earlier, not many months ago, they called the going on-prem as a distraction, but clearly there's enough demand and certainly government contracts any company that has data residency requirements, it's a real need. So they finally addressed it. >> Yeah, I'll bet dollars to donuts, there was an EBC session and some big customer said, if you don't do this, we ain't doing business with you. And that was like, okay, we'll do it. >> So Dave, I have to say, earlier on you had brought this point, how Frank Klutman was poo-pooing data science workloads. On your show, about a year or so ago, he said, we are never going to on-prem. He burnt that bridge. (Tony laughs) That was on your show. >> I remember exactly the statement because it was interesting. He said, we're never going to do the halfway house. And I think what he meant is we're not going to bring the Snowflake architecture to run on-prem because it defeats the elasticity of the cloud. So this was kind of a capitulation in a way. But I think it still preserves his original intent sort of, I don't know. >> The point here is that every vendor will poo-poo whatever they don't have until they do have it. >> Yes. >> And then it'd be like, oh, we are all in, we've always been doing this. We have always supported this and now we are doing it better than others. >> Look, it was the same type of shock wave that we felt basically when AWS at the last moment at one of their reinvents, oh, by the way, we're going to introduce outposts. And the analyst group is typically pre briefed about a week or two ahead under NDA and that was not part of it. And when they dropped, they just casually dropped that in the analyst session. It's like, you could have heard the sound of lots of analysts changing their diapers at that point. >> (laughs) I remember that. And a props to Andy Jassy who once, many times actually told us, never say never when it comes to AWS. So guys, I know we got to run. We got some hard stops. Maybe you could each give us your final thoughts, Doug start us off and then-- >> Sure. Well, we've got the Snowflake Summit coming up. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing data science, that are really employing Python through Snowflake, through Snowpark. And then a couple weeks later, we've got Databricks with their Data and AI Summit in San Francisco. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing considerable BI workloads. Last year I did a market overview of this analytical data platform space, 14 vendors, eight of them claim to support lakehouse, both sides of the camp, Databricks customer had 32, their top customer that they could site was unnamed. It had 32 concurrent users doing 15,000 queries per hour. That's good but it's not up to the most demanding BI SQL workloads. And they acknowledged that and said, they need to keep working that. Snowflake asked for their biggest data science customer, they cited Kabura, 400 terabytes, 8,500 users, 400,000 data engineering jobs per day. I took the data engineering job to be probably SQL centric, ETL style transformation work. So I want to see the real use of the Python, how much Snowpark has grown as a way to support data science. >> Great. Tony. >> Actually of all things. And certainly, I'll also be looking for similar things in what Doug is saying, but I think sort of like, kind of out of left field, I'm interested to see what MongoDB is going to start to say about operational analytics, 'cause I mean, they're into this conquer the world strategy. We can be all things to all people. Okay, if that's the case, what's going to be a case with basically, putting in some inline analytics, what are you going to be doing with your query engine? So that's actually kind of an interesting thing we're looking for next week. >> Great. Sanjeev. >> So I'll be at MongoDB world, Snowflake and Databricks and very interested in seeing, but since Tony brought up MongoDB, I see that even the databases are shifting tremendously. They are addressing both the hashtag use case online, transactional and analytical. I'm also seeing that these databases started in, let's say in case of MySQL HeatWave, as relational or in MongoDB as document, but now they've added graph, they've added time series, they've added geospatial and they just keep adding more and more data structures and really making these databases multifunctional. So very interesting. >> It gets back to our discussion of best of breed, versus all in one. And it's likely Mongo's path or part of their strategy of course, is through developers. They're very developer focused. So we'll be looking for that. And guys, I'll be there as well. I'm hoping that we maybe have some extra time on theCUBE, so please stop by and we can maybe chat a little bit. Guys as always, fantastic. Thank you so much, Doug, Tony, Sanjeev, and let's do this again. >> It's been a pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and the excellent analyst. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, we have two special guests, Karim Toubba, CEO of Kenna Security, and Caroline Japic, CMO, Kenna Security. Great to see you guys, thanks for coming on, appreciate you taking the time, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> So RSA is coming up, big show, security's at the top of the list of all companies. You guys have a very interesting company. Risk based vulnerability management is like the core secret sauce, but there's a lot going on. Take a minute to talk about your company. What do you guys do? Why do you exist? >> Yeah, sure. Thanks for having us. Some, the security landscape as you very well know, pretty crowded space, a lot of different vendors, a lot of technologies that enterprises and organisations have to deal with. What we do has a lot of complexity behind it, but in an app practicality for enterprises is actually quite simple. They have many, many data sources that are finding problems for them, mapping to their attack surface, what are misconfigurations? Where are there vulnerabilities in your network or your host, where there vulnerabilities in your applications, we taking all of that data, specifically from 48 different data sources, we map it to what attackers are doing in the wild, run it through a lens of risk, and then enable the collaboration between I.T. and security, on what to focus on at the tip of the spear with a high degree of fidelity and efficacy so that they know that they can't fix everything, but prioritize the things that matter and are going to move the meter the most. >> So you guys have emerged as one of those kind of new models, the new guard of security, it's interesting, it's been around for 10 years, but yet a lot's changed in 10 years but a lot of evolving. Risk based vulnerability management is the buzzword, R-B- >> V-M >> Okay, really comes from the founder of the company. Why is this becoming an important theme? Because you got endpoints, you got all kinds of predictive stuff with data, you got surface area is growing, but what specifically about this approach makes it unique and popular? >> Yeah, I think what's happening is if you, to really answer that question, you have to look at two different ends of the spectrum in terms of the business, the security side and the IT DevOps and application development side. And at the core of that is what was largely traditional tension. If you think about security teams, operations teams, incident response teams, and if you sit down with them and understand what they do on a day to day basis, beyond the incident response and reaction side, they have a myriad of tools and technologies that discover problems, typically millions of issues. Then you go to the IT side, and the application and DevOps side, and they care about building the next application, making sure the systems are up and running. And what happens is they, we've gotten to the point where they can't possibly fix everything security is asking them to fix, and that's created a lot of tension, people have woken up, started to realize that that tension has to give way to collaboration. And the only way you can do that is enable security to detect all the problems, but then very quickly focus and prioritize on the things that matter, and then go to IT and then tell them specifically what to fix so that they have a high degree of precision and understanding, that the needle will be moved relative to what they're asking them to do. >> So is it the timing of the marketplace and the evolution of the business where it used to be IT that handled it, and now security has gotten broader in its scope, that there's now too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak? >> Yeah, it's gotten broader in its scope, and there's also been a realization that if you think about the security problem statement, they find all the problems, but if you if you peel back the layers, you quickly realize, they own very little the remediation path. Who fixes-- >> John: They being IT? >> They being security. >> John: Okay. >> Yeah, so it's actually quite fascinating. If you think about who fixes a vulnerability on an operating system like Windows or Linux, it's the IT team. If you think about who fixes or upgrades a Java library or rewrites an application it's DevOps or the application developers, but security's finding all the problems. So they're realizing, as they deploy more tools, find more issues, and increase the amount of data, they've got to get very precise and really enable an entirely new way of collaborating with IT so that they can get them to focus on the things that matter the most. >> Karim, I want to dig into some of the complexity, but first want to get the Caroline on the brand, and the marketing challenge because it's almost an easy job in the sense, because there's a lot of security problems out there to solve, but it's also hard on the other side, is that, where's the differentiation? There's so many vendors out, there's a lot of noise. How are you looking at the marketplace? Because you guys are emerging in with nice, lift on the value proposition, you won some recent awards. How do you view the marketplace? RSA is going to be packed with vendors, it's going to be wall to wall, we get put in the corner, we are going to have small space for theCUBE, but there's a lot there and customers are being bombarded. How are you marketing the value proposition? >> You are right. There's so much noise out there, but we are very clear and precise on the value we bring to our customers, we also let our customers tell the story. So whether it's HSBC, or SunTrust, or Levi, we work with them very closely with those CSOs, with their head of IT to understand their challenges, and then to bring those stories to life so we can help other companies because our biggest challenge is that people just don't know that there's a better solution to this problem. This problem's been around a long time, it's getting worse every day, we're reading about the vulnerabilities that are happening on a regular basis, and we're here to let people know we can fix it, and we can do it in a pretty quick and painless way. >> You had mentioned before we came on camera that when you you're getting known, as the brand gets out there, but when you're in the deals, you win. Could you guys share some commentary on why that's the case? Why are you winning? >> Yeah, by the way, just to piggyback off that a little bit, there is a really interesting paradigm happening within the security space, if you look at the latest publications, I don't know, there are 1400 of us all buzzing around with the same words? I think what Caroline and the team have done an exceptional job on, particularly in relative to the positioning is, we don't want to scare people into looking at Kenna. We want to be more ethereal than that and make them understand that we're ushering in a new way away from tension to an era of collaboration with IT, DevOps and application teams. That's very different than telling somebody in your messaging, Hey, did you hear the latest attack that happened at XYZ? >> Yeah. >> That sort of fear and marketing through FUD, is creating a lot of challenges for organizations, and candidly, is making CISOs and other people in security close the door. >> I've definitely heard that, do you think that's happening a lot? >> I think that's happening a lot. I think we're sort of, I like to think that Caroline and the team are sort of at the forefront of leading that initiative, and you can, and we're doing it in every way possible to really sort of tell a much more positive story about how security can be smarter and spin in a positive light, and in fact, the technology is enabling that, so it's consistent. >> We live in dark times. Unfortunately, a lot of people like, if it bleeds, it leads, and that's a really kind of bad way to look at it. But back to your point about tension and collaborations, I think that's an interesting thread. There's a ton of tension out there, that's real, from the CISO's perspective. Because there's too many teams, I mean, you got, Blue Team, Red Team, IT, governance, compliance, full stack developers, app. So you have now too many teams, too many tools that have been bought and it's like, people have all these platforms, they're drowning in this. How do you guys solve that problem? >> Yeah, it's back to that point of collaboration, and what we've really found that's been interesting in solving that problem, because what we're doing if you step back, is, we're bringing in all these data sources, and where that tension comes in, if you unpack it a little bit, is from different people coming in with different data sources. So IT comes to the table about what to fix, with their own point of view, security comes with their own point of view, application teams come with their own point of view, governance and compliance comes with their point of view. What we do is we come in and even though we're technology, we're really aligning people in process. We're saying, "Look, we're going to to amass all that data, "we're going to very quickly use machine learning "and a bunch of algorithms to sift through "millions of pieces of data "and divine what actually matters." It's empirical, it's evidence based, and we align all the organizations around that filter through risks so that there's agreement on how to measure that, what to prioritize, what to action and what the results look like. And when it turns out that when you get a bunch of people across an organization, to get aligned around data that they all agree with as the source of truth, it gets much easier to get them to really focus on the things that ultimately matter. >> It's a single version of the truth, right? It's a single version that they all can work from. Security isn't telling IT, "This should be your priority today," when they say, "You don't know what my priorities are," is actually the data that's telling them what their priorities are by role, and that's really important and really gets past all the, the friction and the fighting in between the teams. >> Yeah, that's great point, back to my other question when I get back to you Caroline, is what is the success formula look like for you guys? Why are you winning? What are the feedback you're hearing from your customers? Because at the end of the day, references are important, but also, success is a tell sign. So what's the reasons behind the success? >> Yeah, I'll let Karim talk about being face to face with customers, because he does that all the time. But what we're saying is that, the customers are resonating with the story that we're telling, they understand they have the problem we're laying out in a very simple way for, to be able to solve their solution, and that's working. We've redone our positioning, our messaging, we've trained our sales team, people understand the value we can bring, and that's what we're communicating, and that's what's working. >> Karim, please add on that, I want to get more into this. >> Yeah, and on the customer side, what we see and I'll give you a pretty classic example for us with a very large bank that's a customer of ours. We actually started on the security side, right? We sold to their deputy CISO to deploy, and then eventually, they doubled down and then deployed globally across 64 countries. And that happened sponsored by the CIO. Now we're a security company, so you ask the question, well, why did that get driven in that structure? And why did that deal go down ultimately in that way? And what was the real value? The value to the security person was clear, I want to aggregate 10 to 12 different data sources, I want to prioritize, I want to collaborate with IT. The value to the CIO was the CIO happens to own all the application developers and all the IT people and the security people on a global basis. And so what they wanted to do, is they wanted to understand what the risk was for each of the lines of businesses they had within organization so that they can hold the business users accountable to paying a small tax for security, not just developing the next billion dollar high net worth application, which is extremely important to those businesses, but at the same time, ensuring that they're secure. And so that leverage when you start with security, and then branch out in other organizations, especially in large, multinational organizations, is really where the the real value comes into the platform. >> So if I hear you correctly, you come in for security, okay, we can get rid of the noise, help you out, check, win, and then the rest of the organization doesn't have security teams per se, >> Karim: Correct. >> Needs security to be built in from day one. >> Karim: Correct. >> You're providing a cross connect of value to the other teams? >> That's right. >> It's almost like, security is code, if you will. >> Karim: That's right. And nowhere is that more evident in our utilization statistics. So we're a SaaS platform, so of course we, like many other SaaS companies do a bunch of analytics on utilization of our customers, more often than not, in our large scale enterprises, we actually have more IT and non security users logging into Kenna, in a self service model, because they're the ones, back to the point you made earlier, that are actually driving the remediation path. >> Take us through how that works. So say I'm interested, okay, you sold me on it, great, I need the pain relief on the security side, I need the enablement and empowerment on the collaboration side, what do I do? Do I just plug my databases into you? Is it API driven? Are you on Amazon? Are you on Azure? What's cloud? What am I dealing with? Take me through the engagement. >> Yeah, so we're 100% cloud based platform. Multi cloud, so we can deploy in AWS, we can deploy in Google et cetera. And then what we do is we effectively through a bunch of API's called connectors that are transparent to the customers, we enable them to bring in their data. So this is everything from traditional scanning data like Qualys, Rapid7, Tenable, more, newer data like CrowdStrike, Tanium, DaaS SaaS, software composition analysis tools, WhiteHat, Veracode, Black Duck, Sonatype, you name it. The list goes on, specifically, there's about 48 of them. All of that is basically helps us understand what the totality of the attack surface is. That's very useful for security because they're using multiple tools. We then overlay what we call exploit and tell, this is the data that tells us about what attackers are doing in the wild. Specifically, we have 5 billion pieces of data that tell us about what vulnerabilities are being popped, what's the rate of change, what malware are they being embedded in? That use, that information is used through machine learning to help us prioritize and risk score each of the findings we get from the customer tools. And then where it pivots over to IT, is we then allow them to take all of that data and that metadata and asset criticality into what we call risk meters. So they're basically aligned with where, how IT operates. So for example, if you own all the Linux infrastructure in the cloud, you log in, you'll only see the risk across the infrastructure you own. Whereas if Caroline owns all the endpoint real estate across Windows, she logs in and understands what her risk is across Windows. And then we of course, integrate in the ticketing systems to drive the remediation and report up to executives and then over to security, about what the workflow you-- >> So you guys really focusing not so much on the security knock or the sock, it's more on indexing, if you will, for lack of a better description, the surface area, >> Karim: Correct. >> And getting that prepared from a visibility standpoint to acquire the data. >> Karim: That's right. >> And then leveraging that across-- >> Across the organizations, yeah. >> Did I get that, right? >> It's exactly right. And if you ask, if you again, double click deeper on that, what's fascinating to watch, so we have a an annual, or bi annual report that we do called prioritization or prediction, or P2P. And this is all of our customer data completely anonymized in a warehouse, and then we run a bunch of reports, and lot of the analytics we ran initially were around security. Now we're starting to pivot in IT. If you look at our latest report, one of the most interesting things I found in my time here is that the average large scale enterprise has actually no more than 10% remediation capacity, right? So what does that tell you? That tells you that 90% of the problems are going to go unsolved, which pinpoints why it's even more important to have specific prioritization on the things that matter. >> They solve the right 10%. >> At the right time too, >> At the right time. >> 10% capacity, operating capacity, assuming some automation that might take care of some of the low hanging fruit >> Exactly. >> Through DevOps or automation. You can focus on those 10% at the right time, which by the way, if you use that capacity for the wrong problems at the wrong time, it's wasted capacity. >> Karim: That's right. >> That's what you guys are trying to get at, right? >> Karim: That's exactly right, work smarter, not harder. >> So Kenna security, what's the vision? What's the next step? Why should someone care about working with you guys? Why is it important to engage you guys? What's the big deal? Is it the risk based vulnerability, kind of origination invention, which is the core or the DNA, or is it something bigger? What's the vision? What's the why? Yeah, well look for us, we started, our company was actually founded by a gentleman by the name Ed Bellis, who's the ex chief security officer at Orbitz, and he founded the company out of a need. We started very early in the traditional pure vulnerability space. This was like calling Classic Qualys, Rapid7, Tenable. We then expanded into the application world. So this is starting to take in, moving up stack if you will full stack, as the environment moves to cloud, as the environment moves to containers, as the environment moves to configuration management as the environment moves to a much more ephemeral state, that will drive an entirely new set of data sources that will drive an entirely different new set of priorities all aligned with the same model of risk. So our view of the future is that we are the platform that enables the organization to understand the totality of the attack surface, that enables collaboration across all the groups that deal with technology within enterprises, and allows them to really prioritize and understand risk in a way that not only fosters the collaboration, but gives you that return on investment that candidly ultimately CIOs are looking for. >> Caroline the story from a marketing perspective, what's the story you're trying to tell? >> We started this space, our founder Ed Bellis is the father of risk based vulnerability management and he loves it when I say that, but it's 100% true. We are continuing down this path, I mean, there are so many companies that have this problem that don't know that there's a better way to solve it. And so for now, our mission is to make sure that we're educating those people, they understand what's possible to do today, and then continuing from there, so. >> Well, I really appreciate you guys coming in and introducing and sharing more about Kenna Security, we've been seeing successes. I'm going to ask you about what you guys think about RSA, I'd love to get both you guys to weigh in. But before we get to the RSA kind of what's coming, take a quick minute to plug the company. What do you guys looking to do? You hiring? You just got some funding? Give the quick pitches. >> Yeah, sure, we did. We just closed $48 million series D round. We had all of our investors and a new investor, Sorenson Ventures come in. We also had two strategic investors, Citi and HSBC, because we do quite well, that very good validation. And we're also quite prominent in the financial services vertical, it helps that. And so for us, it's really about scaling, right? Scaling people, scaling the technology, scaling capabilities-- >> John: Across the board. >> Across the board. >> Engineering, obviously. >> Engineering, sales, geographies, it's really about getting the word out there and then being able to follow that up with the feed on the street that matter. >> We're definitely hiring, but we're also growing through OEMs. So we have a relationship with VMware, they're embedding us into their app defense products, and so if you buy app defense from VMware, you are buying Kenna whether you know it or not. >> So you're going to be an ingredient in other products. >> That's right. >> And or direct or indirect, probably some channel ecosystem opportunities? >> That's right. >> So we're growing on the technology partner OEM front, definitely interested in talking to companies that are interested on that front. >> We should do a whole segment on my fascination with what I call tier two or tier 1B clouds, specialty clouds, security clouds. So maybe do that another time. Okay, final question for you guys. RSA is coming this year 2020, and then a series of other events. Cloud Security has been a hot topic since re:Inforce last year was launched, we were there, kicking off theCUBE in security. What do you guys expect this year at RSA? What do you think the big themes are going to be? The hype? The meat on the bone? What's the real deal? What's the hype? What do you guys think is going to happen? >> Karim: I'll let you start. >> Yeah, I can tell you our theme is the right fight club. Because we are focused on the right fight that you need to have every day inside your enterprise. It's not focused on all the vulnerabilities that are hitting you because they're hundreds of thousands of them, millions of them, and there's going to be more every single day, it's about fighting the right fight. So if you come by our booth, you'll see that, it's going to be very exciting-- >> And of course, don't talk about the Fight Club vulnerabilities. (Karim laughs) >> You know the rules of the fight club. >> The first rule is to talk to Kenna about the right fight club. That is the first rule. >> That's cool. >> Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Every, as you very well know, every year when people walk away from RSA, there's a few blogs that are written about what was the theme this year, I suspect this year's in security specifically, is going to be about AI driven security. We've been starting to see that for a while, it started to bleed into last year's event. I think for us in particular, we have a very particular point of view, and our book point of view is that doesn't matter if it's ML, if it's AI, or what type of algorithms you're running, the question is, what's the value? What is the value when you have 1400 people all screaming to get in the door of an organization? Everybody really has to begin to answer that question fundamentally. And I think the people that have that position in the market are the people that are going to be able to stand out. It's interesting, as always the hype with AI, but it's interesting, I was just trying to figure out when the term there is no perimeter was kind of first coined in theCUBE, I'm thinking probably about five years ago, it really became a narrative and then more recently, with the cloud, the perimeter is dead. Edge is out there. >> Karim: Right. >> So this is, what's the gestation period of real scalable security post perimeter is dead. It's interesting, is it years, is it seems to be hitting this year. It seems to be the point where, okay, I tried everything, now I've got to be data driven or figure out a way to map the surface area. >> That's right. >> End to end. Well, thanks to Kenna Security coming in, a solution for figuring out the vulnerabilities with a real invention. We're going to be covering security at RSA with Kenna Security and others. Thanks for watching, this is theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and intel along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCube live in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin and we are coming to you from AWS re:Invent 19. I'm with Stu Miniman. This is our second day of two sets of theCube coverage. And we are pleased to welcome a couple of guests from Citrix. To my left is Matt Lull Managing Director of Global Strategic Alliances and we have Marissa Schmidt, Senior Director of Product Management. Guys, welcome to theCube. >> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. >> Thank you. >> So here we are with 65,000 or so of our close friends with AWS. Matt you have been managing the AWS Citrix relationship, I think you said for about 10 years. >> I have. >> Give our audience an overview of what Citrix and AWS are doing and the evolution of this partnership. >> Well 10 years ago when we started Cloud was brand new, Amazon's re:Invent conference hadn't even started yet and nothing Citrix made worked on Amazon. And now we are pleased to say that everything Citrix makes works on Amazon. And we actually have hundreds of customers and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of users using Citrix on AWS everyday. And the pace of innovation in that last decade has accelerated. We've done more net new product innovation in the last 10 years than in the previous 20 before that. It's been a fast-paced environment. >> Well and a strong and growing partnership. I remember the first year I came to the show it was 2013 and I think Citrix had one of the largest booths at the conference there. You keep adding to that. Marissa, let's not bury the lead any further. There is some hard news dropped today. Help understand, help us share the new news today. >> Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. There are many announcements. It started yesterday actually at the keynote with the Outpost announcement. The we have the ADC validation with Outpost and the only ADC in that validation. And then we also have the ingress routing that also was announced yesterday and our solution integration into that. Both blogs went out yesterday. And then we had a press release this morning that talked about our quick starts with AWS quick start for Citrix ADC as well as the rest of the instant site that now we support. >> Okay, so I'd love to dig in a little bit on the Outpost if we can. >> Yes, sure. >> My background is networking too. So people have been geeking out trying to understand this. You know, some of the key, you know, the secret sauce inside of Outpost is that nitro chip from Annapurna help really extend what AWS is doing in the public Cloud to a customer's data center. Reminds me a little bit of what NetWorker has been doing for customer applications for quite a long time. So how do those pieces fit together? >> So for AWS right, the focus is for some of the customers that has more applications-centric that is on-prem, that has regulatory compliance requirements and for those customers that really want to do that hybrid with on-prem and Cloud, this is the best approach for them that they can use the on-prem solution with Outpost but put the VPX, the NetScaler ADC VPX on Outpost and provide that solution for hybrid customers that want to have the enterprise grade solutions on-prem and Cloud. >> I look at Outpost as more strategic than just a conversation or on a new piece of hardware and some new nitro hyper visors, right? This is Amazon's first move into hybrid Cloud which we've been doing since the beginning. And when you look at where Citrix ADC is already deployed, it is a leading piece of technology in the corporate data center in the DMZ, protecting the corporate assets. So now we have a situation where we've been helping Amazon with hybrid for a long time. Now they're moving their infrastructure onto premise and we're starting to combine our on-premise footprint with their on-premise footprint and its really actually an interesting time and place to be working not just with Citrix ADC, which is first, but in the future with things like Citrix SD-WAN, which is the other major piece of our networking portfolio. >> So when theCube was at Citrix energy, I think that was back in, I'm going to guess April, in the Spring. So many Cube shows, I lose track. We, Keith Jones and I were there for several days, got to talk with a lot of your customers, your leaders all about how ultimately the workforce, five generations in the workforce today, which kind of surprised me, but how everybody is distributed and that's how people need to work. Similar with how organizations are now hybrid multicloud. There's all of these technologies that need to work together in order to enable the worker to deliver what that business needs to drive differentiation. Talk to us a little bit about some of the parallels there in terms of what Citrix delivers to the workspace and how what you're doing with Amazon is going to allow businesses, whether its a retail organization or a bank to enable, ultimately, at the end of the day those workers to get stuff done wherever they are, so they can access applications whether they're on-prem or in the Cloud. >> So the workspace conversation is an interesting one and you used a word, hybrid multicloud, which you don't necessarily hear in Amazon circles a lot, they are the largest of the Clouds, right. But that said, our job is to deliver every application known to mankind, and that is those that are built on-premise by IT and those that are running as SaaS from any provider and there are companies that make important applications that also have Clouds. We tie all that together, right. So with the Citrix networking, the ability to terminate the end user's SSL session, we can see all the traffic, regardless of where it originated. We can tell what that user is doing in real time and we can apply new and innovative solutions like things that Amazon is a leader in around machine learning and artificial intelligence at the user level to say, is what this user is doing today normal for that particular user. Not for some other user, normal for you, and are you behaving unusually, cause if you're behaving unusually maybe there's something we need to click down in on. So we're looking really, really closely at how the world is evolving to move to where SaaS is happening. IT is losing control of the application servers and they're moving out into SaaS land. Many of them are on Amazon, some of them are elsewhere, and all of them have to be governed. And that's where we're really investing heavily and redefining what is Citrix for the future. >> Now so Matt, it's always interesting when people look at this space they're like, oh Cloud is changing everything, you know, Amazon is taking over the world. So I mentioned Citrix had the biggest booth back in 2013. There was a little product called AWS WorkSpaces that was announced and everybody was like, well, it was nice that Citrix had a long relationship with Amazon. I guess we won't be seeing them next year. Well, here we are 2019, strong partnership. Help us understand how that dynamic works out and how, you know, you worked through some of these coopetition environments. >> That's a fun one. So we run into coopetition across the board. We have some in the networking arena with core load-balancing services that exist in all the Cloud platforms. And we have a variety of startups in the Daas land. And when I look at WorkSpaces, it's a quality product for a simple user that needs it now and needs a small quantity. Some of the larger enterprises are looking at it for simplicity but when I look at what it's capable of doing and what it's total costs are versus what happens when we can deploy the 30-year mature solution from Citrix on Amazon, we still find a large percentage of the customers needs what Citrix delivers. So we have actually probably more Citrix WorkSpaces users on Amazon than on any other Cloud. It's depending on how you meter it. It's a little hard to say with total accuracy but it's been supported on Amazon for longer than anywhere else. And we know customers appreciate the combination of the two and we look at what AWS is able to provide from a platform perspective, you know, with a built-in high availability, built-in global reach, built-in global performance. Those things are all valuable to our customers and they deliver a great platform at a reasonable price. So we support that. At the same time, we're moving out of that market, that pixel remote presentation market, well, we're not moving out of it, we're moving beyond it. It is still a core part of our portfolio but our investments going forward are in delivering those applications into the intelligent workspace regardless of where they originate. Many of those user sessions won't actually be virtualized at all. They'll be controlled, governed, and secured with Citrix Workspace and Citrix networking technology but won't be dependent on things like DaaS, which is what you get out of those services like AWS WorkSpaces. >> Marissa, when I talk to customers, one of the biggest challenges they have is, you know, the changing portfolio of applications that they're dealing with. It's getting more complicated. It's gone from monolith to microservices, everything is distributed, you know, it's not just my data that's in the public Cloud, Edge now becomes a larger piece of the discussion. These are the types of solutions that Citrix has been helping a long time. What is different now about the application landscape and how Citrix is working with customers than it might have been a few years ago. >> What's different now is definitely the more modernization of the apps, right? The digital transformation was talked about in all the different keynotes yesterday and today. And as we do that we need to help our customers adapt with the applications that they do have whether it's the legacy apps or the more adaptable, flexible apps that can go to the Cloud with Kubernetes and that container environment but with Citrix solutions you can actually do that with Citrix ADC being in a container environment so we can provide that east west traffic with Citrix CPX while we also have the north south traffic for the legacy 3-tier web apps that's always going to be there for the majority of the customers, right. But what makes Citrix unique is that we do have single code base for Citrix ADC that can run in the traditional apps as well as now the east west traffic for all more modernized applications which is critical. And for Citrix overall, it's 3 pillars, right? One is the end user experience that's always got to be stellar. And number two is giving the customer a choice of which environment they want to work with. And lastly, it's providing security. And with the Citrix overall solution where Workspace from an end user perspective and the apps closer to the applications with the Citrix ADC together provides that end-to-end solution for our customers. >> Marissa, can you give us an example of, I presume as the Senior Director of Product Management you're in the field a lot, you talk with customers. Some of the things that AWS showed yesterday on stage, we saw Cerner talking about their healthcare transformation, we saw Goldman Sachs CEO go from D.J. to talking about how they have completely transformed their consumer finance business. What's an example that you think, when you're out in the field, really articulates the value that Citrix delivers enabling a business to truly transform to that? Regardless of the application infrastructure they're able to harness the data, extract insight from it and use it as a business differentiator. >> Yeah, so for our customers it really resonates, the Cerner one and Goldman Sachs because they're, you know, we deal with a lot of our customers that way, Especially in the healthcare industry. Whether they decide to go some of it in the Cloud, you still want to, what's important for them is that compliance, that security, that data protection. It still matters whether it's on-prem or in the Cloud environment. And so in that case, this is where our Citrix solution, as they decide to take some work loads on-prem or on the Clouds, they can still use this same feature-rich capabilities that Citrix ADC or the Workspace have to connect all their applications in one place and still get the initiatives that they need for their company to get the best our-wide as well as not having to do the day-to-day data center changes. Now they can be flexible by putting that in the Cloud. >> So if you look at how customers have been coming across Citrix and which portion of the customer organizations we've historically spoken to, you know, 20 years ago we talked to the desktop team and we were a solution by getting client server applications on the desktops, which was a big problem 20 years ago. It's not as much of a problem today but even as you move to browser-based environments, security and governance are more important than ever, right? We see it every day. Another company got hacked. Another situation happened. There was another consumer privacy breach. We see the rules and regulations coming out in a number of countries about how data has to be protected and companies become liable if there's problems. So, increasingly we're seeing companies come to Citrix and saying we need help with governance compliance and security. And increasingly we're marrying the unique networking capabilities that we have with the unique workspace or application desktop virtualization capabilities to create new and improved solutions that really kind of change the game for how end users get access to applications, remove the need to know passwords, which limits the ability to actually lose them, and simplify the process of making sure your data is where you believe it should be. >> Matt, you know, such a deep partnership, I'm curious, there's so many announcements that Amazon talked about, is there anything that's either jumped out at you or places beyond? We talked about some of the Outpost specific things but I think about machine learning is exciting a lot of people. People want to be able to plug into these environments either natively or through hybrid environments. Where does that play into your discussions with customers? >> So when we look at how Citrix is transforming what we do there's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes, we are a substantial Amazon customer. We are one of their largest. So, you can take for granted that we're consuming a lot of their cutting edge capabilities as we build our cutting edge capabilities. We're not necessarily directly exposing something like Amazon machine learning as a button in our environment but when you look at what they're doing with end user computing applications, they're moving into a world where, they mentioned in the keynote yesterday that one of their fastest growing services is Amazon Connect. One of our best use cases is for task workers and call centers. You might imagine that there's going to be a future there that we should be looking at. And so I do see the things that they're innovating becoming relevant to us in ways that are more than just about the infrastructure as a way to power servers, storage, and networking for Citrix environments but also becoming content, rich content, both Amazon-owned rich content and their SaaS ecosystem that's built on Amazon, all those startups they talked about this morning, all of them running in our Citrix Workspace. It requires us to have the right networking solutions in place, the right identify trust solutions in place and make it really easy for customers to consume as a service instead of a pile of bits that they get to construct themselves. >> Well Matt and Marissa, we thank you for joining us on theCUBE today at re:Invent telling us what's new with Citrix and what's new with the evolution of the partnership. Thanks for your time. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> Thank you. >> For Stu Miniman, I am Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from AWS re:Invest 19. We'll be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's the CUBE. Covering Informatica World 2017. Brought to you by Informatica. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We are here live in San Francisco for Informatica World 2017. Exclusive CUBE coverage of the event, Informatica World 2017. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Peter Burris, General Manager, Head of Wikibon Research at Wikibon.com. Our next guest is Greg Hanson, Vice President of EMEA Cloud and DaaS, Data as a Service. Welcome back, good to see you again, CUBE alumni. >> Good to see you, yeah thank you very much. >> Year two, or year three of our coverage. >> Exactly. >> So last year, we had a great conversation. I think you laid out pretty much the playbook. Lots happened, in fact Brexit happened. But cloud in outside of North America is a tricky game because there's a lot of different countries. We got EU, and other parts of the world there. It's really a regional issue, and you see in a massive expansion. The cloud guys, we have Amazon, sponsorship here, Google, now expanded globally. What is the landscape like? Given Brexit, that was a political thing has ramifications but also the regional expansion of the cloud players has been pretty significant over the past year. With announcements coming, I can't even keep track of 'em all. How is that impacting your business? >> So it is quite fragmented across EMEA. Our region is EMEA and Latin America as well. It's a huge geographical region. Across a geographical region that's very different in different countries. So the EU as a whole, there is, cloud is very hot in the EU at the moment. There's a large adoption. I think we've past that point of no return, past the tipping point, as you should say. Every enterprise customer I talked to is now it's not when they're going to, or if they're going to adopt cloud it's when. Usually, they're already on a journey that we can help them with. But then in some of the far-flung regions where the maturity of cloud is less so, where the presence of Amazon or Microsoft, or even ourselves is limited. Like Russia for example or the Middle East. There's not that same kind of infrastructure. So the desire and the demand for cloud in those regions is less. But the large majority of our geographical region, cloud is a huge topic for every single customer. >> What's the state of the art right now in your territory with cloud? Obviously, from Informatica perspective, you have a view but also in cloud adoption, hybrid, clear, public cloud, there's use case for that, a lot of on-premise with hybrid. What' the key state of the art right now for Informatica and the cloud players? >> I think there's fabulous opportunity for Informatica. It really is a hot topic. There's two ways that we can deal with that. I mean, there's the enterprise space, which Informatica has been ruling for 20 years now but cloud gives us a huge opportunity to go into new market sectors as well that we've really not been in before. Mid market opportunities. You no doubt see a lot of the partners around the event here that we've got that allowed us to address customers that we simply weren't addressing before. We had an enterprise sales force. If you think about those mid market organizations, they're the organizations that are really going to drive the cloud adoption as well. In countries like Italy and Germany, where you very quickly get down to small and medium sized enterprise. Cloud is huge in those organizations, in those countries. There's a great opportunity for us to go after mid market sector as well as the enterprise. >> But increasingly in the digital business, we were talking about this earlier in one of your segments, in the digital business, you have greater distribution of data, greater distribution of function, and almost inevitably, the ecosystem is going to be comprised of big enterprises but also mid market companies. They're going to have to work together. >> Greg: That's true. >> So it's not looking at the enterprise and the mid market in isolation. Increasingly the enterprise is going to be acknowledged as a way of extending your influence into a lot of different customers or a lot of different domains both through partnerships, as well as your customers. How is Informatica going to facilitate that kind of a new approach to thinking about business as a network of resources. >> One of the great things about the cloud infrastructure itself, if we reel back and think about 10 years ago, when all our products were on-prem. It's very difficult for us to understand what our customers were doing with our products. We have to go an talk to them, and speak to them on the phone, visit them to understand what their use cases were. Now in cloud, that world has changed. Because if you think about one of the things at Informatica is well-known for is metadata. So operational metadata, technical metadata. We can actually see what our customers are doing with our products. We can understand the uses cases. That becomes a crowd sourcing in terms of how you can replicate, how you can industrialize, how you can you reuse a lot of that type of integration, which is enabling us to create new wizards, new accelerators, which are common across the marketplaces and use cases. So really a phenomenal change over the last two years, which has been brought on by that ramp of cloud adoption that we've seen globally to be perfectly frank. >> Okay, take a minute Greg, to talk about this DaaS. I think of Daas, I think of like cellular distributed antenna system but let me, it's an acronym, it's Data as a Service. >> Greg: Data as a Service, yeah. >> Peter: But what does it really mean? >> Take a minute to just break that down. What does that mean to the customer? What's the product? What's the offering? >> Greg: Okay. >> It's important, obviously data is the key, and people want it as a service. So take a minute to just explain what that means and the impact. >> Yeah, it's important to understand what Informatica means by Data as a Service, I think. Our Data as a Service product line, pretty much concentrated and focused on increasing the quality of data. So high performance, quality of data. If you think about digital transformation as the topic, which is being talked all around in rims and corridors around this event here this week. Fundamentally, data is really the key foundation of digital transformation. But I would say high quality data is key to the success of digital transformation. That's what our DaaS product can enable us to do. So if you think about-- >> Peter: How does the customer engage with DaaS? (faint statement) >> So the typical use case is that you could have address verifications and we have products that support multiple different countries and regions, more than 240 countries. So if you want to get high quality data to our customers, which everyone is ultimately wanting to do these days to effectively cross-sell and upsell. We can provide a global facility to do that. But you can fix, you can fix data in batch orientation but what's much more effective is actually plugging into the applications. So become seamless to an end user. So they're using Salesforce.com or they're using another application, and it's embedded into their application. So it runs in the background. When they enter a poor address for example, it will correct it, and it will validate email addresses and phone verifications. We've got a customer in Germany, just as an example, 1&1, which is an Internet service provider in Germany. They've got 7.7 million customers. One of their biggest problems is inaccuracy of data. That prevented them billing, prevented them onboarding the customer first and foremost. Then it prevented them billing, which is a pretty serious problem for an organization. >> Peter: Yeah, I'm moving to Germany. (laughs) >> So by implementing the DaaS products, what they enabled them to do is make sure that when they enter data into a system, that it was high quality, it was correct at the point of entry, which by the way is seven times cheaper to do it there rather than trying to fix it downstream. So it's an important product set for us to support high quality data for that digital transformation journey. >> So you're, sorry John, you're not buying and selling your customers' data. What you're using-- >> No. >> Is this is a service to enhance the quality. >> Greg: Exactly. >> Of your data. >> It will fix data and it will also enrich data that they've already got. >> That's an important distinction, John, because a lot of people talked about Data as a Service, they say, "Oh yeah, I'm going to monetize my data "by giving it to the marketplace." We all know that you give that data to a good data scientist they're going to reengineer your customers pretty quick. >> Exactly. >> That's what people are worried about, the privacy. So back down the drivers for your business. What are the drivers for your business in EMEA? >> Yeah, certainly cloud option which we already talked about is a huge growth market for us in EMEA. But there's other things that happening locally in EMEA marketplace, GDPR, General Data Protection Regulations that are coming up. That is a hot topic on the lips of all of our customers right now. Let me take a minute to describe what that means for people who maybe are not familiar with it. Because it's generally an EU thing but it affects every organization that wants to sell into the EU. It came on the back of the Google Right To Be Forgotten ruling where really what we've got to do, we've got to provide a framework, where a customer can say to an organization, I want you to forget me. Obviously, then need a central library. They'll be able to manage it from a single point. That is an extremely complex thing for an organization to do, particularly an enterprise organization. >> John: Forensics is what it is. >> Exactly. If you think about how to approach that, I think Informatica is in a unique position to help organizations deal with that type of issue. Because, I know one of the announcements today, I think Ronen, who was on before me was talking about CLAIRE, our Clairvoyancy, and our artificial intelligence but it's all about that unification of metadata. That's a great example of how a good use case of where that can be deployed. 'Cause if you think of the fragmentation of data that we've got across many clouds, on-premise, how do you understand even where all your customer data is? That's what the unified metadata can provide. It can go out, collect all the metadata from all these different vendors, index it, catalog it for you. We've been in business 20 years. We know what our customer data looks like. We know what product data looks like. We can categorize it and index it for you. Then you can search it. So you can identify where your risk is, where your customer data is at risk. You can do something about it. Now, with the most recent acquisition that we made last year in terms of Diaku, which is a missing piece for me in terms of how do we expose that to business users to actually engage in the governance process. The new Diaku acquisition of Acson, really fills that gap for us. I think we've got a really good stack to help customers. >> You got product chop, we talked about in the past. The brand is new brand is out there. You're seeing some branding, brand value. Good for the partners, good for business. So with that, I'll ask you my final question which is, what's different from last year? A lot of change in 12 months. Just in a short 12 months, certainly in the product side, we saw some awesomeness from the products. Always had good product folks at Informatica World, which is why I love doing this conference. But the brand challenges were there. What is Informatica? So what's different now from last year? The big highlights. >> For me personally, and I've been here at Informatica quite a long time. I think it's quite refreshing. We had quite a lot of change in terms of our C-level at Informatica. It's really breathe new life into the organization from my own personal perspective. There's a huge refocus and a drive on our, fantastic new product sets that we're releasing here today. Internally, in the organization, there is a big motivation. There is a new kind of culture, a new resurgence almost in terms of where we feel we're going to be in the next five years. 'Cause we're looking at the product portfolio. We're looking at the outlook in terms of our growth, and our strategy. It's a great place to be right now. Sales, it always helps when you get good sales and everything. I'm sure you've seen the figures et cetera that we've been doing. But I can't see that changing. (fast crosstalk) >> Amazon's stock price and sales, and net income over the past year. Really the inflection point was right at '08, end of '08, beginning of '09, but really the real kick up on the hockey stick, which they have, has been around 2010, halfway through 2010, and then just pretty much straight up, massive shift. This is a wave, cloud is here. >> Yeah, I think Sally Jenkins, our CMO, earlier on this morning. I think she put it exactly right. In Informatica, in my view, we've been a little bit too conservative in terms of shouting about how good we are. I think we're pretty much one of the hottest pre-IPO companies that are out there right now. So if you look at our product set, the leader in six market segments. That's a great place to be. So I'm excited about the future-- >> Going private, we've talked to Anil, and talked to all the top executives. It's just a great close the curtain, open the doors back up again when you're ready. Easier to retool. Certainly as a private company, no pressure on the 90-day shock Clark Cherry held, board member was talking about how that makes things go really smooth. >> That's right, yeah. I mean imagine trying to make that journey towards subscription when you're a quarterly based organization. It's helped for the product development, it's helped with the commercial modeling as well. It's an exciting place to be right now. >> So it's good for the management to be focused on not that window every 90 days. But it's really 60 days, when you got 30 days to prep for the earnings call. But focusing on real product innovation, Micheal Dell did at Dell Technologies, now EMC. Lot of great stuff. Greg, thanks for coming back on the CUBE and sharing your insights. >> Nice, great to be here. >> When we're in EMEA, we're going to come by and say hello. >> Absolutely. >> Certainly, we'll keep in touch as we expand the CUBE out to in Europe. >> Look forward to it. >> Thanks so much. It's the CUBE, live coverage. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE with Peter Burris, Wikibon. We have got more live coverage here in San Francisco at Informatica 2017, after this short break. Stay with us. (enlightening tune)

(upbeat music) >> Live from San Francisco, California, it's theCUBE at VMWorld 2014. Brought to you by VMware, Cisco, EMC, HP, and Nutanix. (upbeat music) Now, here are your hosts, John Furrier and Dave Vellante. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back, we're here live in San Francisco for VMWorld 2014, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. This is theCUBE. We expect to sue for the noise, get the tech athletes in from CEOs, entrepreneurs, startups, whoever we can get that has that signa. We have Pat Gelsinger, the CEO of VMware here in the house. Pat, great to see you again, great keynote. >> Hey, thank you. >> You've been a great friend of theCUBE, five years now running, just want to put a plug in. >> Five years? Wow. >> I want to thank you for this amazing gift of pens we got from the VMware Opening Campus Day. Great pens, celebrating you guys opening up, officially, the Palo Alto campus, how's that going? What's happening with the campus? >> Well first, the campus opening was great, thank you for joining us there for it. It really is just a fabulous place. I mean, a beautiful campus, and we have the greatest employees, so we wanted to give them the greatest place to work. The campus has gone fabulous, we've opened up almost all the buildings now on campus. Just two more to build out, and we're hosting all sorts of wonderful people who want to come in and see the coolest place in Silicon Valley now. >> It's like China over there. New cranes going up, and putting new buildings up there. Are you guys done with construction there? What's happening? You guys are expanding like crazy. >> Two more buildings to go. >> (laughs) Two more buildings to go. >> Then we're done for a while, so (laughs) almost there, almost there. I got worried when there's so many cranes going around. Do I need all my employees to wear hardhats or something? It's like, no, we're soon done with that, and we can get everybody to work. >> Robin kicked off the keynote before you came on, she talked about staying the course, and use a computing hybrid cloud server to find data, so then you came out and laid out, essentially, the vision of this transformation that's happening. What's the state of your vision there? Expand on that keynote, and share with the folks who might not have caught it live. What was the crux of the presentation? 'Cause it had a lot of Pat Gelsinger vision, it felt like it's transformative. We've even had some guests on talking about commentary, the announcements. Are they playing defense, offense? You're not a defensive player. You're an offensive player. So talk about the offensive moves for VMware, and how that keynote struck a chord there. >> The first one really started with this phrase, "brave, new IT," and the nexus of that was all of our VMware faithful. The V admins, the people who've been using this. They are becoming critically important to the businesses that they serve going forward because not only is it about them doing their job, but with SDDC, Hybrid Cloud, end-user computing, it's them redefining the entire infrastructure for the business. And when the CEO looks down, across his leadership team, who's the most competent person there to navigate through all of these IT trends that are merging to, necessarily, redefine their businesses? And we call this liquid business that's changing. So very quickly, we're seeing that businesses redefine themselves from education, to government, to transportation. Uber, today, not owning any assets, has a market cap equal to that of Hertz and Avis combined. We're just seeing these things emerge so quickly. And who's the smartest guy in technology in the room? The IT guy. Out of that, we laid out, obviously, our continuing progression with the Software-Defined Data Center, updates on major projects, bringing those components together in a big way. One of our first, and I think, most significant announcements today, was a lot of the choice announcements. We are adding an OpenStack distribution, so if you're a vCloud user, I'm going to have the programmatic ability of infrastructure through the OpenStack API's, you now get it with VMware. We also announced an embrace of containers. Containers, this 20-year overnight success where all of a sudden, lots of discussions around containers, and how can I use containers as a new app delivery model? Well, the best way to deliver apps for an enterprise, on top of the VMware infrastructure. So we announced a relationship with Google and Kubernetes, with Docker, one of the leaders in that space early, and how we're going to make them containers without compromise in the data center for enterprise customers. >> On the container piece, last year, we asked you, here, on theCUBE, about Docker and containers. You were like, oh, containers have been around for a while. What made you go, hey, this Docker thing's got legs? Was it the community thing? Part of the Open Source tie-in? Was it the interoperability? Containers is not a new concept, as you had pointed out, but what's changed for you and VMware over the past year to make that happen? >> And it still is very early. Let's be clear, John, that we're very much in this early, nascent phase, right in the hype cycle curve, you know. We're way up, we're probably going to go through the valley of despair in this technology, but very quickly, there's a broad set of these third gen developers that are saying containers is a cool way for me to package, deliver, and manage app deployment over time. We're saying if that is how people want to be able to deliver apps, then we, the preferred infrastructure for delivering apps, we're going to embrace and enable that, as well. So very quickly, it came together, and we engaged with Docker and Google as partners, and they said absolutely, we want to partner with you in this space, so all of the pieces just snapped together overnight. We've been working with them, making meaningful contributions in the space. >> That's a DevOps ethos, right? That's basically a cloud, right? >> DevOps is a funny term. It's funny, I had a bunch of my guys at the DevOps conference here, you know who was there? It was all IT guys, not developers. It's really a progression of developers to DevOps into IT, and we really say that DevOps is where developers and IT come together. We really are trying to enable DevOps to satisfy the business guys. In fact, go back to my brave theme. You're seeing Shadow IT, and developer, and line-of-business go around IT, and IT is now being through announcements, like today, armed with the tools to go to developers and say, oh no, I'm your friend. >> Step out of the shadows. >> I'm going to enable you with the coolest, most efficient infrastructure, and I'm still going to have it secure and managed, as well. You don't need to be running in these environments that we can't scale, manage, and secure. Your apps, now, can operate in an enterprise-worthy way. >> That right once run anywhere concept is very powerful, is the premise, if I understand it correctly, that you'll bring that enterprise capability, the security, and other management capabilities to that concept? >> Yeah, the VM doesn't change. We're adding Docker on top of the VM, and enabling it with some cool, new technologies, like I mentioned, Project Fargo, that actually make that delivery of the container on the VM more efficient and lighter-weight, than a bare, metal, Linux implementation of Docker. That's really powerful, it's really cool that we can do that, and we have some cool technologies that we're showing off that enable that, and will be part of our next major vSphere release. >> So you touched that base, you touched the OpenStack, you got some action going on there, and sort of, embracing, OpenStack. More developers in OpenStack. VMware has a touch act to follow when you think about the whole where we've come from. It seems so simple now. Servers underutilized, you had a 10x disruptive factor. Now, you've got to do it again. I remember Moretz used to talk about this deeper business integration. He'd talk about it like this was grand vision, but you actually, now, have been executing on that. Is that where the next wave comes from? That deeper business integration? You talked about transforming infrastructure, so how do you do it again? Is it a cost reduction, is it a business integration, is it, as you say, transforming that infrastructure? What does that mean to the customer from an operational standpoint? >> If you're the IT guy, do you want to spend a lot of your time worrying about the infrastructure? Actually, what you want to do, is have this programmable, scalable, flexible infrastructure that enables you to go worry about the business problems, which are in the apps. Because you want the IT guy spending all of his time, and most people say, how can I do new application services? How can I enable new business models, et cetera. So he wants this flexible, programmable, secure, managed infrastructure, and he wants to worry less and less about it. E.g., it needs to become more automated, more efficient, more scalable. And we walk into that discussion, say, you know, we've earned the right, CIO, because we've demonstrated more value, more efficiency, more quality of software, and we now have 80 percent of the world's applications running on top of the software that we do enlist for you. We've earned the right to show that we can do that for the full data center. To be able to do that both on and off premise, in a reliable, scalable, managed, and secure fashion, so that we enable you, Mr. IT, to go deliver the environment for the developer. To deliver the environment on or off premise, to secure all those next generation devices and applications, as well. And that's what we're off to do for you, and we deserve a seat at your table to help you do that. >> The Federation helps you with that seat, although, you guys got a pretty big role in the Federation. >> Yeah, yeah, we do. >> I wanted to ask you about the financial analyst meeting, did you get a lot of questions about that? About the whole spin-out thing, and how was that addressed? >> Actually, surprisingly-- >> Didn't come up? >> Not a question. >> 'Cause it's already come up. >> We've talked about it before. Largely, EMC is addressing those things. We've been very proactive in our position. We think the Federation is the right model. It's working, it's delivering value, we're quite committed to it, and we're showing quite a number of cases where we're adding value, as a result of it this week. We announced EMC as one of our EVO:RAIL partners. We announced the ViPR-based object service for the vCloud Air service, that we announced this week. Announcing new solutions that we're doing with them, so lots of different areas that we're just demonstrating the value that comes from the Federation. >> Well, we know Joe a little bit, we know that's not going to happen anytime soon. So what kinds of things did come up? Were they nitty gritty things around enterprise license agreements, 2015 guidance, share with us what you guys-- >> Lots of questions around 2015. >> And you guys shared a little bit more, maybe, than in the last-- >> We gave them framework to go look at 2015, lots of questions about the strategies that we've laid out. How well this NSX thing play out? How rapidly is that going to grow? vSAN, how rapidly are you seeing that grow, as well? vCloud Air, how are you going to win in that business, and do it in a margined, effective way for VMware? And how does this vCloud Air network partnership work? Based on that, how should we look at your growth profile going forward, with your traditional business, as well as these new business areas, and what's that going to look like over 15 and beyond? So those are sort of the nature of the questions. >> The Air piece is interesting to John and me because we've been trying to parse through, on a long-term basis, you guys are software everything, you talked about that, at quite some length, and the business model's great. Marginal economics, go to zero. You see some of that happening with the public cloud. The traditional outsourcing is starting to fall, that software marginal economics line. My question relates specifically to how your, whatever it is, 4,000 partners, can you replicate that kind of marginal economics at volume, or is it more of a high touch belly-to-belly model? >> We definitely are viewing this as the potential for a very scalable model, working with service providers who invest substantial capital, who have data centers, who have networks, have unique, governed assets in their own countries that they participate in, as well. We're building the stack, being prescriptive in the hardware, building the software layer that we need to go with it, so that we can operationalize the seven by 24 service that scales, and do so with this hybrid model. Not be over here in the race to the bottom, with Amazon's and Google's, we're over here focused on enterprise customers to deliver value of how these things work across the boundary of on and off premise, the Hybrid Cloud, and enable which enterprise-class services on top of the platform. We're going to do so with what we do, we're going to leverage partnerships, like Savvis, CenturyLink, like the SoftBank partnership, and we're going to enable those 3,900 partners with additional service offerings, as well. It's a very effective business model. >> But you will build out your own data centers, or... >> No, we're not building our own concrete, air conditioning, and networks, we're doing Colo for the core vCloud Air offerings for those, but we're enabling our partners to do that, as well. Here are the recipes, you go build it, and operate it, as well. >> So that's a technology transfer, IP transfer? >> For that, we get a recurring revenue stream as they go run our software in their data centers and services. The combination of the two, we think, gives us a very effective business model for the future. >> Pat, last year, I asked you about the, you announced the Hybrid Cloud, all in. I made a comment, kind of off the cuff, that's a halfway house, got you agitated. Halfway house? (laughs) And you said no, it's the final destination. I took a lot of heat for that, I fall on my sword, I'll eat my own words there, but it turns out absolutely correct, right? That's absolutely the destination. That is the number one conversation, it's Hybrid Cloud, certainly on-prem, off-premise, new economics, value creation. I got to ask you, and the question from Twitter has come in, along the same lines, is ask Pat about moving up the Stack. And I also want to hear about the end-user piece, but inside the Hybrid Cloud destination, what is the VMware vision of moving up the Stack mean, and what does that mean to you? >> Anybody who lays out a strategy, to me, it's more important to answer what you're not doing, than what you are doing. For us, we're not doing hardware, making that clear, we're enabling hardware partners. We're not doing consumer, we're focused on the enterprise customer, and we're not doing apps. We are enabling more services, enterprise services, like DR-as-a-Service, Desktop-as-a-Service, but we're not going into the app space. That's the line that we're trying to draw. Everything that's an enterprise-class service, where people need enterprise capabilities, an identity, a DR, storage capabilities, things that really are common services for apps to utilize, that's what we're doing, but that's as far north, or far up the Stack that we'll go. >> I asked Steve Herod on our Crowd Chat pregame on Friday, what the hot opportunities are for startups, he said security, or mainly, not getting caught at this perimeter-base security. What's your view on that? >> The hard, crusty exterior, and the soft, gooey inside is how I described it this morning. My morning breakfast everyday, and with it, this whole idea of micro-segmentation, NSX, really redefines how you build networks, and that's going to allow us to re-factor every aspect of security, every aspect of routing, and load balancing, et cetera. We announced the five partnership. The Palo Alto Networks partnership is really enabling us to execute on the micro-segmentation use case. It's transformational about how services and networks are operated inside of data centers, and we have the poll position here with the NSX platform. >> One of the most common question we're getting from the crowd, is when are you going to get a Twitter handle? (groans) (laughs) >> I've never been a good social guy. (talking over each other) >> We'll show you the engagement container-- >> Thank you, you can help me out with that. That'll be good, thanks. I appreciate it. (laughs) >> On end-user computing, let's go to the part because Sanjay is onboard, the acquisition, give us the update, what's coming through that? >> What a team. Sanjay has been a great leader, we brought together a great leadership team, Sumit and John Marshall. Their passionate and aggressive in that space. The combination of the new assets, the AirWatch team, Revitalization of Horizon, DaaS as a service on the platform, we just announced Cloud Volumes. It's a very cool, dynamic app capability, so overall, really coming together. Momentum increasing in the marketplace, Sanjay's done a really fine job at driving us in that area. What a difference a year makes. >> Pat, I wish we had 34 minutes, which was your record on theCUBE-- >> We're just getting started, John. (laughter drowns out speaker) >> We appreciate your time, but I want to give you the final word, and we talked about this briefly earlier, everyone always wants to ask, is this a defensive move, what's the strategy? I've never seen you as a defensive player. In all the interviews we've done, knowing your history, you're an offensive player. You talked about, years ago, get out in front of that next wave, or you'll be driftwood. I don't see that defensive. What is the VMware offense? If you could describe the offense for VMware, as a company. And answer the question, offense, defense? Are you making defensive moves, or am I off-base by categorizing it offense? >> I think we're absolutely playing offense. If you think about it, we're transforming networking, we're transforming the entire data center operation, we're delivering the first, truly hybrid cloud, enabling secure, managed environments on those devices. Unquestionably, overall, we are playing offense. Now, some things I think we should've done sooner. We should've been in the public cloud space earlier, and we're having to catch up in that space. The moves that we've taken in OpenStack, I think they're pretty well-timed. The moves that we're taking in containers, I think we are way ahead of anybody else, in terms of delivering enterprise container environments, in that respect. >> M&A activity looking good right now? (laughs) >> I just announced one last week, I got more in the pipeline, we're never finished. Organic innovation, inorganic innovation, we're playing both, and we're absolutely playing offense 'cause here, we're playing to win because our customers want the very disruptive nature of the products that we deliver with the quality, the brand of VMware. That's what they want from us. >> And more open source is part of that playbook? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Seeing that grow? >> Absolutely, we will use open source every place that we can to accelerate the offerings that we bring to our customers. We don't mind fundamentally changing our business model, but we can add open source components to it, and we will, and today's OpenStack announcement is a great demonstration of that. >> Pat, put the bumper sticker on this to end the segment. What's the bumper sticker say for this year's VMWorld? What's on the bumper right now? What's it say for VMWorld-- >> Enabling brave, new IT. >> Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware here, inside theCUBE. Always great to have him. Our fifth year, we love having him on. Great tech athlete. This is theCUBE, be right back after a short break. (dull dinging)

(upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back to VMWorld 2013. This is theCUBE, flagship program. We go out to the events to extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm joined with David Vilante, my co-host from Wikibon.org and we're kicking off today with an awesome interview. CEO of VMWare, Pat Gelsinger, CUBE Alumni. Been on the theCUBE with Dave and I multiple times. So many times. You are in like the leaderboards. So in terms of overall guest frequency, you've been up there, but also you're also the top dog at VMWare and great to see you again. How are you feeling? >> Thank you, thank you. Good morning, guys. >> Pleasure. >> Good to see you. >> So what's new? I mean obviously you're running the show here. You're running around. Last night you were at the NetApp event. You ran through CIO, R&D. You got to go out and touch all the bases out here. >> Yeah, yeah. >> What does that look like? What have you done and obviously, you did, the key note was awesome. What else is going on? >> You know, everything, you know, VMWorld is just, it's just overwhelming, right? I mean 23,000 people almost. I mean you know the amount of activities around that and it really has become the infrastructure event for the industry and you know, if you're anything related to infrastructure, right, what's going on, right in the enterprise side of IT, you got to be here, right? And there's parties everywhere. Every vendor has their events. Every you know, different particular technology area, a bunch of the things that we're doing, and of course to me, it's just delightful that I can go touch as many people and you know, they get excited to see the CEO. I have no idea why, but hey I get to show up. It's good. >> You've been in the industry for a long time. Obviously you've seen all the movies before and we've talked about the seas of change in the EMC world when you were there, but we had two guests on yesterday that were notable. Steve Herrod who's now a venture capitalist at Generalcatalyst and Jerry Chen who's a VC at Graylock, and we have a 10-year run here at VMWare which is esteemed by convention, but the first five years were a lot different than the last five years, and certainly, the last year you were at the helm. So what's changed in the past 24 months? A lot of stuff has certainly evolved, right? So the Nicira acquisition certainly changed up, changed everything, right? You saw software-defined data center now come into focus this year, but really, just about less than 24 months, a massive kind of change. What, how do you view all that? How do you talk to your employees and the customers about that change? >> Well you know, as we think about the software-defined data center vision, right, it is a broad comprehensive powerful vision for rearchitecting how the data center is operated, how customers take advantage of it. You know and the results and the agility and efficiency that comes from that. And obviously the Nicira acquisition is sort of the shot heard 'round the world as the really, "Okay, these guys are really serious "about making that happen." And it changes every aspect of the data center in that regard. You know and this year's VMWorld is really, I'll say, putting the beef on the bones, right? We talked about the vision, we talked about each of the four legs of it: compute, networking, storage and management of automation. So this year it's really putting the beef on the bones and the NSX announcement, putting substance behind it. The vSAN announcement, putting substance behind it. The continuing progress of management and automation. And I think everything that we've seen here in the customer conversations, the ecosystem of partner conversations are SDDC is real. Now get started. >> Can you, I think you've had some fundamental assumptions in that scenario, particularly around x86 in the service business. Essentially if I understand it, you've said that x86 will dominate that space. You're expecting status quo in the sense that it will continue to go in the cadence of you know, cores and Moore's Law curve even though we know that's changing. But that essentially will stay as is and it's the other parts, the networking and the storage piece that you're really, where you define conventions. Is that right? >> Yeah certainly we expect a continuing momentum by the x86 by Intel in that space, but as you go think about software-defined everything in the data center really is taking the power of that same core engine and applying it to these other areas because when we say software-defined networking, right, you need a very high packet flow capability and that's running a software on x86. We need to talk about data services running in software, right? You need high performance. It's snapshots, file systems, etc. running on software, no longer bound to you know physical array. So it really is taking that same power, that same formula right, and applying it to the rest of the elements of the data center and yeah, we're betting big right, that that engine will continue and that we'll be successful in being able to deliver that value in this software layer running on that core powerful Silicon engine. >> So Pat, so obviously when you came on board, the first thing you did was say, "Hey, the pricing. "I want to change some things." Hyper-Visor's always been kind of this debate. Everyone always debates about what to do with Hyper-Visor. But still, virtualization's still the enabling technology so you know, you kind of had this point where the ball's moving down the field and all of a sudden, in 2012, it changed significantly, and that was a lot in part with your vision with infrastructure. As infrastructure gets commoditized, what is going to change in the IT infrastructure and for service providers, and the value chains that's going to be disrupted? Obviously economics are changing. What specifically is virtualization going to do next with software defined that's going to be enabling that technology? >> Yeah, you know and I, you know, we're not out to commoditize. We're out to enable innovation. We're out to enable agility, right, and then the course of that, it changes what you expect and what the underlying hardware does. But you know, it's enabling that ecosystem of innovation is what we're about and customers to get value from that and as you go look at these new areas, "Hey, you know, we're changing how you do networking." Right, all of a sudden, we're going to create a virtual network overlay that has all of these services associated with it that are proficient just like VMs in seconds. We're creating a new layer of how storage is going to be enabled. You know, this policy-driven capability. Taking those capabilities that before were tightly bound to hardware, delivering it through the software layer, enabling this new magnificent level of automation and yesterday's demo with Carl. I mean Carl does a great CTO impersonation, doesn't he? And he's getting some celebrity action. He's like, "I got the bottle." >> Oh yeah. >> Steve Herrod gave him a thumbs up too. >> Yes, yeah Steve gave him a good job. But you know, so all of those pieces coming together, right, is you know, really, and you know, just the customer and the ecosystem response here at the show has been, "Oh, you know, right, "SDDC, it's not some crazy thing out there in the future. "This is something I can start realizing value for now." >> Well it's coming into focus. It's not 100% clear for a lot of the customers because they're still getting into the cloud and the hybrid cloud, I call it the halfway house to kind of a fully evolved IT environment, but you know. How do you define? >> No it is the endgame. Hyper cloud is not a halfway house. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? >> To to full all-utility computing. That is ultimately what we're saying. >> Halfway house? >> I don't mean it that way. (group laughs) >> Help me. >> Okay next question. >> (chuckles) When you're in a hole, stop digging, buddy. >> So how do you define the total adjusted mark at 50 billion that Carl talked about? >> Yeah you know, as we looked at that, we said across the three things, right that we said, software-defined data center, 28 billion dollars; hyper cloud, 14 billion; eight billion for the end-user computing; that's just 50 billion opportunity. But even there, I think that dramatically understates the market opportunity. IT overall is $1.7 trillion, right? The communications, the services, outsourcing, etc. And actually the piece that we're talking about is really the underpinnings for a much larger set of impact in the part of what applications are going to be developed, how services are delivered, how consumers and businesses are able to take advantage of IT. So yes, that's the $50 billion. We'll give you the math, we'll show you all the details of Gartner's and IDC's to support it. But to us, the vision and the impact that we're out for is far more dramatic than that would even imply. >> Well that's good news because we said to Carl, "It's good that your market cap is bigger than--" (Pat laughs) >> Oh yeah your TAM is bigger than your market cap. Well okay now we-- >> Yeah, that's nice, yeah. Yeah, we're out to fix the market cap. >> Yeah he said, "Now we got to get the 50 billion. So I'm glad to hear there's upside to the TAM. But I wanted to ask you about the ecosystem conversation. When you talk about getting things like you know, software defined network and software defined source, what's the discourse like in ecosystem? For guys like, let's take the storage side. EMC, NetApp last night, they say, "Hey you know, software defined storage. "We really like that, but we want to be in that business." so what, talk about that discussion. >> Yeah, clearly every piece of software defined, whether it's software defined storage, software defined data services, software defined security services or networking, every piece of that has ecosystem implications along the way. But if you go talk to a NetApp or a EMC, they'd say, "You're an appliance vendor." And they would quickly respond and say, "No, our value's in software, "and we happen to deliver it as an appliance." And we'd say, "Great, let's start delivering "the software value as a software appliance "through virtualization and through the software delivery "mechanisms that we're talking about for this new platform." Now each one of them has to adjust their product strategies, their, you know, business strategies to enable those software components, right, independent of their hardware elements for full execution and embodiment into the software-defined data center feature. But for the most part, every one of them is saying, "Yes, now how do we figure out how to get there, "and how do we decompose our value, embody it it in new ways "and how can we enable that in "this new software-defined data center vision?" >> And they've always done that with software companies. I mean certainly Microsoft and Oracle have always grabbed a piece of the storage stack and put it into their own, but it's been very narrow, within their own spaces, and of course, VMWare is running any application anywhere. So it's more of a general purpose platform. >> Absolutely. >> Is it a tricker fit for the ecosystem to figure out where that white space is? >> Absolutely. Every one of them has to figure out their strategy. If you're F5, you know, I was with John McAdam this morning. "Okay, how do I take my value?" And you would very quickly say, "Hey, our value's in software. "We deliver it as mostly as appliances, "but how do we shift, you know, your checkpoint?" Okay, you know, they're already, right, you know, our largest software value or Riverbed, you know, the various software vendors and security as well. Each one of them are having to rethink their strategies and the context of software define. Our customers are saying, "Wow, this is powerful. "The agility and the benefits that I get from it, "they're driving them to go there." >> So what's the key to giving them confidence? Is it transparency? You're sharing roadmaps during integration? >> Yes, yes, yes. >> Anything else? Am I missing anything there? >> You know, also how we work with them and go to market as well. You know, they're expecting from us that, okay, "you know, if this is one of our accounts, "come in and work with us on those accounts as well." So we do have to be transparent. We have to the APIs and enable them to do integration. We have to work with them in terms of enabling their innovation and the context of this platform that we're building. But as we work along the way, we're getting good responses to that. >> Pat, how do you look at the application market? Now with end-user computing, you guys are picking that up. You got Sanjay Poonen coming in and obviously mobile and cloud, we talked about this before on theCUBE, but core IT has always been enabling kind of the infrastructure and then you get what you get from what you have in IT. Now the shift is, application is coming from outside IT. Business units and outside from partners, whether they're resellers. How do you view that tsunami of apps coming in that need infrastructure on demand or horizontally scalable at will? >> Yeah so first point is, yes, right, we do see that, you know, as infrastructure becomes more agile and more self provisioned, right, more aligned to the requirements of applications, we do see that it becomes a tsunami of new applications. We're also working very hard to enable IT to be the friend of the line of business. No longer seen as a barrier, but really seen as a friend, partner enabler of what they're trying to do because many of the, you know, line of businesses have been finding way. You know, how do I get around the slow-moving IT? Well we want to make IT fast-moving and enabling to meet their security, governance, SLA requirements while they're also enabling these powerful new applications to emerge and that to us is what infrastructure is all about for the future is enabling, you know, businesses to move at the speed of business and not have infrastructure being a limiter and as we're doing things, you know, like the big data announcements that we did, enabling infrastructure that's more agility, you see us do more things in the AppDev area over time, and enabling the management tools to integrate more effectively to those environments. Self-service portals that are enabling that and obviously with guys like Sanjay in our mobile initiative, yeah that's a big step up. Don't you like Sanjay? He's a great addition to the team. >> Yeah Sanjay's awesome. He's been great and he has done a lot on the mobile side. Obviously that is something that the end users want. >> That's an interesting way that I put him into that business group first. (group chuckles) >> Well on the Flash side, so under the hood, right? So we look under the hood. You got big data on the dashboard. Everyone's driving this car to the new future of IT. Under the hood, you got Flash. That's changing storage a bit and certainly reconfiguring what a DaaS is and NaaS and SaaS and obviously you talked about vSAN in your key note. What is happening, in your vision, with compute? I mean obviously as you have more and more apps hitting IT, coming in outside core IT but having to be managed by core IT, does that change the computing paradigm? Does it make it more distributed, more software? I mean how do you look at that 'cause that's changing the configuration of say the compute architecture. >> Sure and I mean a couple of things, if you think about the show here that we've done, two of them in particular in this space, one is vSAN, right? A vSAN is creating converged infrastructure that includes storage. Why do you do that? Well now you have storage, you know, apps are about data, right? Apps need data to operate on so now we've created an integrated storage tier that essentially presents an integrated application environment in converged infrastructure. That changes the game. We talked about the Hadoop extension. It changes how you think about these big data applications. Also the Cloud Foundry announcement. Right on/off premise of PaaS layer to uniquely enable applications and as they've done that on the PaaS layer, boy, you don't have to think about the infrastructure requirements to deploy that on or off premise or increasingly as I forecast for the future, hybrid applications, born in the hybrid, not born in the cloud, but born in the hybrid cloud applications that truly put the stuff that belongs on premise on premise, puts the stuff that belongs on the cloud in the cloud, right and enables them to fundamentally work together in a secure operational manner. >> So the apps are dictating through the infrastructure basically on demand resources, and essentially combine all that. >> Absolutely. Right. The infrastructure says, "Here's the services "that I have already, right, in catalogs "that you can immediately take advantage of, "and if this, you fit inside "of these catalogs, you're done." It's self-provisions from that point on and we've automated the operations and everything to go against that. >> So that concept of "born in the hybrid" is a good one. So obviously that's your sweet spot. You're going from a position. >> Yeah and this stupid halfway house hybrid comment. I mean I've never heard something so idiotic before. >> One person, yeah. (group chuckles) >> I don't know, it was probably an Andreessen comment or something, I don't know. (group chuckles) >> He's done good for himself, Marc Andreessen. >> Google and Amazon are obviously going to have a harder time with that, you know, born in the hybrid. What about Microsoft? They got a good shot at born in the hybrid, don't they? >> Yeah, you know and I think I've said the four companies that I think have a real shot to be you know, very large significant players for public cloud infrastructure services. You know, clearly Amazon, you know Google, they have a large, substantive very creative company. Yeah Microsoft, they have a large position. Azure, what they've done with Hyper-V and ourselves, and I think that those, you know the two that sort of have the natural assets to participate in the hybrid space are us and Microsoft at that level, and obviously you know we think we have lots of advantages versus Microsoft. We think we're miles ahead of them and SDDC, right, we think the seamlessness and the compatibility that we're building with one software stack, not two. It's not Azure and Hyper-V. It is SDDC in the cloud and on premise that that gives us significant advantages and then we're going to build these value rate of services on top of it, you know, as we announced with Desktop as a Service, Cloud Foundry as a Service, DR as a service. We're going to quickly build that stack of capabilities. That just gives substantial value to enterprise customers. >> So I got to ask you, talk about hybrid since you brought it up again. So software defined data center software. So what happens to the data center, the actual physical data center? You mentioned about the museum. I mean what is it going to look like? I mean right now there's still power and cooling. You're going to have utility competing with cloud resources on demand. People are still going to run data centers. >> You're talking about the facility? >> Yeah, the actual facility. I'm still going to have servers. This will be an on premise. Do you see that, how do you see that phasing out to hybrid? What does that look like physically for someone to manage? Just to get power, facility management, all that stuff. >> Yeah and in many ways, I think here, the you know, the cloud guys, Googles and Amazons and Yahoos and Facebooks have actually led the way in doing some pretty creative work. These things become you know, highly standardized, highly modularized, highly scalable, you know, very few number of admins per server ratio. As we go forward, these become very automated factories, right, of cloud execution. Some of those will be on premise. Some of those will be off premise. But for the most part, they'll look the same, right, in how they operate and our vision for software defined data center is that software layer is taking away the complexity, right, of what operates underneath it. You know, they'll be standardized, they'll be modularized. You plug in power, you plug in cooling, you plug in network, right, and these things will operate. >> Basically efficient down to the bone. >> Yeah. >> Fully operated software. >> Yeah and you know, people will decide what they put in their private cloud, you know, based on business requirements. SLAs, you know, privacy requirements, data governance requirements, right? I mean in Europe, got to be on premise in these locations and then they'll say, "Put stuff in the public cloud "that allows me to burst effectively. "Maybe a DR because I don't do that real well. Or these applications that belongs in the cloud, right because it's distributive in nature, but keep the data on premise. You know, and really treat it as a menu of options to optimize the business requirements between capex to opex, regulatory requirements, scale requirements, expertise, mission critical and all of those things then are delivered by a sustainable position. Not some stupid hybrid halfway house. A sustainable position that optimizes against the business requirements that they have. >> Let me take one of those points, SLA. Everybody likes to attack Amazon and its SLAs, but in many regards. >> Yeah, I'm glad I got your attention. >> Yeah, that's good, we're going to come back to that John. (group chuckles) >> In my head right now. >> I don't think we're done with that talk track. (laughs) So it's easy to attack Amazon and SLAs, but in essence, the SLA is, to the degree of risk that you're willing to take and put on paper at scale. So how transparent will you be with your SLAs with the hybrid cloud and you know, will they exceed what Amazon and Google have been willing and HP for that matter have been willing to promise at scale? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean we're going to be transparent. The SLAs will have real teeth associated with them, you know, real business consequences for lack of execution against them. You know, they will be highly transparent. You know, we're going to have true, we're going to measure these things and you know, provide uptime commitments, etc. against them. That's what an enterprise service is expected, right? At the end of the day, that's what enterprises demand, right? When you pick up the phone and need support, you get it, right. And in our, the VMWare support is legendary. I'm just delighted by the support services that we offer and the customer response to those is, "Hey you fixed my problem even when "it wasn't your problem and make it work." And that's what enterprise customers want because that's what they have to turn around and commit back to their businesses against all of the other things as well. You know, regulatory requirements, audit requirements, all of those types of things. That's what being an enterprise provider is all about. >> John wants to get that. Talk about public cloud. (Pat laughs) >> I want to talk about OpenStack because you guys are big behind OpenStack. You talk about it as a market expansion. Internally what are some of the development conversations and sales conversations with customers around OpenStack instead of status, what's it doing, how you guys are looking at that and getting involved? >> Yeah, you know, we've clearly said you know, that you have to think about OpenStack in the proper way. OpenStack is a framework for building clouds, and you know, for people who are wanting to build their own cloud as opposed to get the free package cloud, right, you know, this is our strategy to enable those APIs, to give our components to those customers to help them go build it, right and those customers, largely are service providers, internet providers who have unique scale, integration and other requirements and we're finding that it's a good market expansion opportunity for us to put our components in those areas, contribute to the open source projects where we truly have IP and can differentiate for it like at the Hyper-Visor level, like at the right networking layer and it's actually going pretty well. You know, in our Q2 earnings call, you might recall, you know, I talked about that our business with the public OpenStack customers was growing faster than the rest of our business. That's pretty significant, right, to say, "Wow, if it's growing faster, "that says the strategy is working." Right, and we are seeing a good response there and clearly we want to communicate. We're going to continue that strategy going forward. >> And the installed base of virtualization is obviously impressive and the question I want to ask you is how do you see the evolution of the IT worker? I mean they have the old model, DBA, system admins, and then now you have data science on the big data side so with software defined data center, the virtualization team seems to be the center point for that. What roles do you see changing with hybrid cloud and software defined data center and user computing? >> Well I think sort of the theme of our conference is defy convention. Right and why do we do that? Because we really see that the, you know, the virtual admin and the virtual infrastructure that they have really become the center of IT. Now we need the competence of networking, the security guys, the database guys, but that now has to happen in the context, right, of a virtualized environment. DBA doesn't get to control his unique infrastructure. The Hadoop guy doesn't get his own unique infrastructure. They're all just workloads that run on this virtualized infrastructure that is increasingly adept and adaptable, right, to these different workload areas and that's what we see going forward as we reach into these new areas and the virtual admin, he has to go make best buddies with the networking guy and say, "Let me talk to you about virtual networking "and how we're going to cross between the virtual overlay "domain and the physical domain and how these things "are going to stitch together for making your job better "right, and delivering a better solution "for our line of business and for our customers." >> One thing you did to defy convention is get on stage with Marc Andreessen. So I want to talk about that a little bit. You guys had I would call it, you know, slight disagreements and, into the future. >> Just a little. >> But I thought you were kind to him. And he said, you know, "No startup that I work with "is going to buy any servers." And I thought you were going to add, no never mind. I won't even go there. (group laughs) I won't even go there, I want to be friends. No so talk about that a little bit, that discussion that you had. Your view of the world and Marc's. How do you respond to that statement? Do they grow up into VMWare customers? Is that the obvious answer? >> I mean I have a lot of regard. You know, Marc and I have known each other for probably close to two decades now and you know, we partnered and sparred together for a long time and he's a smart, successful guy and I appreciate his opinions. You know, but he takes a very narrow view, right, of a venture seed fund, right, who is optimizing cashflow, and why would they spend capital on cashflow when they can go get it as a service? That's exactly the right thing for a very early stage startup company to do in most cases, right? Marc driving his customers to do that makes a lot of sense, but at the end of the day, right, if you want to reach into enterprise customers, you got to deliver enterprise services, right? You got to be able to scale these things. You got to be cost-effective at these things and then all the other aspects of governance, SLAs, etc. that we already talked about. So in that view, I think Marc's view is very perspective. >> Also Zynga and those guys, when they grew up on Amazon, they went right to bare metals as soon as they started scale. >> They had to bring it back in right 'cause they needed the SLAs, they needed the cost structures. They wanted to have the controls of some of those applications. >> And rental is more expensive at the end of the day. >> There you go. Somebody's got to pay the margins, right, you know, on top of that, to the providers so you know, I appreciate the perspective, but to me it is very narrow and periconchal to that point of view and I think the industry is much broader and things like policy and regulation are going to take decades, right? Not years, you know, multiple decades for these things to change and roll out to enable us a mostly public cloud world ever, right, and that's why I say I think the hybrid is not a waystation, right? It is the right balance point that gives customers flexibility to meet their business demands across the range of things and Marc and I obviously, we're quite in disagreement over that particular point. >> And John once again, Nick Carr missed the mark. We made a lot of money. >> I think Marc Andreessen wants to put a lot of money into that book. Everyone could be the next Facebook where you you know, you build your own and I think that's not a reality in enterprise. They kind of want to be like Facebook-like applications, but I wanted to ask you about automation. So we talked to a lot of customers here in theCUBE and we all asked them a question. Automation orchestration's at the top of the stack. They all want it, but they all say they have different processes and you really can't have a general purpose software approach. So Dave and I were commenting last night when we got back after the NetApp event was you know, you and Paul Murray were talking in 2010 around this hardened top when you introduced that stack and with infrastructure as a service, is there a hardened top where functionality is more important than which hardware you buy so you can enable some of those service catalogs, some of those agility features in automation because every customer will have a different process to be automated. >> Yeah. >> And how do you do that without human intervention? So where is that hardened top now? I mean is it platform as a service or is it still at the infrastructure as a service model? >> Yeah, I think clearly the line between infrastructure as a service and platform as a service will blur, right, and you know, it's not really clear where you can quite draw that line. Also as we make infrastructure more application aware, right, and have more application development services associated with it, that line will blur even more. So I think it's going to be hard to call, you know, "Here's that simple line associated with it." We'd also argue that in this world that customers, they have heterogeneous tools that they need to work with. Some will have bought in a big way into some of the legacy tools and as much as we're going to try help them move past some of those brittle environments, well that takes a long time as well. I'd also say that you know, it's the age of APIS, not UIs, and for us it's very much to expose our value through programmatic interfaces so customers truly can have the flexibility to integrate those and give them more choice even as we're trying to build a more deeply integrated and automated stack that meets a general set of needs for customers. >> So that begs the question, at the top of the stack where end user computing's going to sit and you're going to advance that piece, what's, what's the to do item for you? What needs to happen there? Is it, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being fully baked out, where is it, what are the white spaces that need to be tweaked either by partners or by VMWare? >> Yeah and I think we're pretty quickly finishing the stack with regard to the traditional PC environments and I think the amount of work to do for the mobile environment is still quite enormous as we go forward and in that, you know, we're excited about Horizon getting some good uptake, a number of partner announcements this week, but there's a lot to be done in that space because people want to be able to secure apps, provision apps, deprovision apps, have secure work spaces, social experiences, a rich range of integrations to the authentication devices associated with it to be able to have applications that are developed in that environment that access this hybrid infrastructure effectively over time, be able to self-compose those applications, put them into enterprise, right, stores and operations, be able to access this big data infrastructure. There's a whole lot of work to be done in that space and I think that'll keep us busy for quite a number of years. >> This is great. We're here with Pat Gelsinger inside theCUBE. We could keep rolling until we get to the hook, but a couple more final questions is the analogy of cloud has always been like the grid, electricity. You kind of hinted to this earlier. I mean is that a fair comparison? The electricity's kind of clean and stable. We have an actual national grid. It doesn't have bad data and hackers coming through it so is that a fair view of cloud to kind of look, talk about plugging electricity in the wall for IT. >> I think that is so trite, right? It came up in the panel we had with Andreessen, Bechtolsheim, Graeme, and myself because you know, it's so standardized. 120 volts AC right and hey you know, maybe it gets distributed as four, 440, three phase, but you know, it is so standardized. It hasn't moved. Sockets standards, right, you're done. Think how fast this cloud world is evolving. Right the line between IA as in PaaS as we just touched upon, the services that are being offered on top of it. >> Security, security. >> Yeah, yeah, all these different things. To me, it is such a trite, simple analogy that has become so used and abused in the process that I think it leads people to such wrong conclusions right, about what we're doing and the innovation that's going on here and the potential that we're going to offer. So I hope that every one of our competitors takes that and says, "That's the right model." Because I think it leads them to exactly the wrong conclusion. >> I couldn't agree more. The big switch is a big myth. I wanted to get tactical for a minute. I listened to your conference calls. I can't wait to read the transcript. I just go, I got to listen to the calls, but just observing those and the conversations around here, I just wanted to ask you. I always ask CEOs, "What keeps you up at night?" They always say execution so let's focus on execution in the next 12 to 18 months. I came up with the following. "To maintain dominance in vSphere, "get revenue beyond vSphere, "broaden end user license agreements, "increase end user computing adoption "and proof points around hybrid cloud." Are those the big ones? Did I miss anything? >> That's a good list. >> Yeah? >> That's a good list. >> So those are the things an observer should watch in let's say 12 to 18 months of indicators of success and of what you're doing and what you're driving. >> Yeah and you know, clearly inside of that, with SDDC, obviously we think this environment for networking, right, and what we've really, I'll say delivered that. That would be one in particular inside of that category that we would call out you know, with regard to our hybrid cloud strategy. It's clearly globalizing that platform. Right, we announced Savvis here, but we need to make this available on a global basis. You go to an enterprise customer and they're going to say, "I need services in Japan, I need services in Singapore. "I need to be able to operate in a global basis." So clearly having a platform, building out the services on top of it is another key aspect of building those hybrid user cases and more of the value on top of it and then in the EUC space, we touched a bit on the mobile thing already. >> So we'll have Martin on later, but his PowerPoint demonstration. >> What a rockstar, what a rockstar. >> He is a rockstar and we've had him on before. He's fantastic, but his PowerPoint demonstration is very simple, made it seem so simple. It's not going to be that easy to virtualize the network. Can you talk about the headwinds there and the challenges that you have and the things that you have to do to actually make progress there and really move the needle? >> Yeah it really sort of boils down in two aspects. One is we are suggesting that there will be a software layer for networking that is far more scalable, agile and robust than you can do in a physical networking layer. That's a pretty tall order, right? I need to be able to scale to tens, hundreds, millions of VMs, right? I need to be able to scale to terabytes of cross-sectional packet flow through this. I need to be able to deliver services on top of this, right, that truly allow firewalls, load balancers, right, IDSes, all of those things to be agile, scale. Yeah, it is ambitious. >> Ambitious. >> This is, right, the most radical, architectural statements in networking in the last 20 or 30 years and that's what gets Martin passionate. So there's a lot of technical scale and we really feel good about what we've done, right, but being able to prove that with robust scalability, right, for which like the Hyper-Visor, it is more reliable than hardware today, in being able to make that same statement about NSX that just like ESX, it is better than hardware, right, in terms of its reliability, its resilience. That's an important thing for us to accomplish technically in that space, but then the other pieces, showing customer value, right? Getting those early customers and what a powerful picture. GE, Citigroup and eBay, right? It's like wow, right? These are massive customers, right, and being able to prove the value and the use cases in the customer settings, right, and if we do those two things, you know, we think that truly we all have accomplished something very very special in the networking domain. >> Pat, talk about the innovation strategy. You've been now a year under your belt at VMWare and you were obviously with EMC and Intel and we mentioned on theCUBE many times, cadence of Moore's Law was kind of the culture of Intel. Why don't you tell us about the innovation strategy of VMWare going forward, your vision, but also talk about the culture and talk about the one thing that VMWare has from a culture that makes it unique and what is that unique feature of the VMWare culture? >> We spent time as a team talking about what is it that drives our innovation, that drives our passion, and clearly as we've talked about our values as a team, it is very much about this passion for technology and passion for customers and how those two coming together, right, with fundamental disruptive "wow" kind of technologies where people just say, like they did when they first used ESX and they say, "Wow, I just didn't ever envision "that you could possibly do that." And that's the experience that we want to deliver over and over again, right, so you know, hugely disruptive powerful software driven virtualization technologies for these domains, but doing it in a way that customers just fall in love with our technologies and you know as, I got a note from Sanjay and I just asked him, "You know, what do you think of VMWorld?" And he said, right, "It is like a cult geek fest." Right, because there's just this deep passion around what people do with our technology, right, and they're not even at that point, they're not customers, they're not partners. They are deeply aligned passionate zealots around what we are doing to make their lives so much more powerful, so much more enabled, right, and ultimately, a lot more fun. >> People say it's like being a car buff. You know, you got to know the engine, you want to know the speeds and feeds. It is a tech culture. >> Yeah, it is absolutely great. >> Pat, thanks for coming on theCUBE. We scan spend a lot of time with you. I know we went a little over. I appreciate your time. Always great to see you. >> Great to see you too. >> Looking good. >> Thank you for that. >> Tech Athlete Pat Gelsinger touching all the bases here. We saw him last night at AT&T Park. Great event here, VMWare World 2013. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break. Pat Gelsinger, CEO on theCUBE.