(peaceful music) >> Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson, and I am delighted to welcome back to the cube, cube veteran, Chen Goldberg, VP of engineering from Google. Chen, welcome back to the cube. >> Hey Dave, super happy to be here. >> Absolutely delighted to have you here. Let's dive right into this conversation. There was a, there was a blog post this week, talking about Google Cloud putting a lot of weight behind this idea of principles for software development. What are those principles and why are they important? >> The three principles that we put in that blog post is open, easy, and transformative. And I think what's really important to recognize with the three principles that those are not new principles, not for Google Cloud, and definitely not for me. I joined Google about, a little bit over five years ago. Right when just Kubernetes started to lead Kubernetes and Google Kubernetes engine team. And we immediately recognized, the idea of open and the importance of flexibility and choice is a foundation to the idea of Kubernetes and portability workloads. But pretty early on, it was clear that it's not enough just to have portability and flexibility because it creates a lot of complexity. So how can we still have that without creating a trade-off or tension for our customers? So really making sure that everything is also easy. You know, and one of the things, I use, I like to say it's not just portability of workloads, but also portability of skills and you achieve that through consistent experience, right? A lot of automation. And when you bring all of those things together, what I love about Google Cloud is that, you know, I'm an infrastructure person. I've always been infrastructure person. And what excites me the most is seeing others take this innovation and, and really empowers developers to make amazing, or, you know, unique ideas, a reality. And that's really the foundation principles for Google Cloud. >> So how does that translate into, from a customer perspective? >> So I would just start with some customer examples, right? Starting from, their perspective. So when we think about open, this is actually part of the, our customers cloud strategy, right? You say cloud, you immediately think only about public cloud, but from our customer perspectives, right? They think about public clouds, right? Most of them have more than one cloud, but they also think about the private cloud, you know, IOT edge and having that openness and flexibility to choose where they can run their workload, is critical. It's critical for them. What I hear mostly is of course, innovation, managing costs, and also making sure that they are not locked out of innovation that happens for example, in any cloud or, or somewhere else. So that's a really a key consideration for our customers when they think about their cloud strategy. The second thing that open matters is that it's really hard to hire talent that is expert and has the right skills. And we see that by using a leveraging open source technologies, it actually makes it easier to our customers to hire the best talent there is in the industry. At one of the previous Google Cloud Next sessions, we had the Loblaw for example, which is the biggest grocery in Canada. And, you know, we were joking on stage, that even though at our hiring for grocery shop, they still can hire the best talent because they are using the best technologies out there in the industry. So that's one, if you think about the importance of easy, I would just call out Western Digital that we've just announced how they decided to standardize on Anthos for their cloud strategy, right? Both of course, Google cloud platform, but On Prem and the Edge. And for them what's important is that when they have all of their amazing developers and operators, how can they provide them reach experience, right. We don't want our developers or operators to spend time on things that can be automated or managed by others. So having a smooth, intuitive experience is really critical. And we we've been announcing some new stuff like a, a Google Cloud deploy and really integrating the entire experience, especially integration for managing, deploying directly to Google Kubernetes engine. And of course, one of my favorite is Jiechi autopilot, which really takes all the goodness with Kubernetes and automatically managing. And then transformative, this is like what I said before, unleashing innovation. And we see Wendy's, for example, right, they want to actually have AI machine learning at run time at their branches, which will allow them to create a new experience for their customers. So this is how we see customers really appreciate these three principles. >> So whenever the subject of Kubernetes and Google comes up, we have to talk Anthos. We're now into what year three of Anthos. How has adoption looked what's the latest on that front? >> That has been really great. We actually have been seeing a 500% growth on the end of Q2 of year over year. And it's important you know to mention that the journey with Anthos is not something new, but something that we have built with our customers when they really love the experience they have on GCP, but needed to innovate elsewhere and not just on Google Cloud. So we've been seeing that, you know, I mentioned the Western Digital, blah, blah, and Wendy's we also have customers like MLB, which is really exciting how they've changed their entire fans' experience using Anthos. And for them, again, it was both the easy part, right? How can I deal with that complexity of having compute and storage everywhere in every one of the stadiums, but also how can I use AI and machine learning, which is unique to Google Cloud in order to create unique experiences for the fans, at real time, of course. >> Yeah. Now you've, touched on this a bit already, if you had to, if you thought about someone reviewing Anthos, their Anthos experience, because we're in the midst of people adopting Anthos and becoming new to Anthos at this point. What does a delighted customers response sound like to you? What is that Yelp review that they would write? If they were telling people we, doubled down on Anthos and we are thrilled because, fill in the blank for a second. >> The first thing that comes to mind is that it works everywhere and the developer experience that comes with it, right? So we have, of course the platform and the infrastructure, but where Anthos really shine is that experience, on top of thinking about all developers and operators that can really work in every environment without paying too much attention to that. And just having that intuitive experience, right? If you go to the Google Cloud console, you see all your clusters, and now we're actually also going to add your VMs into that view, and you can use tools like Anthos config managers, and Anthos service mash to manage your security posture or the configuration in all of those environments. >> So we hear a lot about Multicloud. Multicloud is fantastic, but it sounds like, dealing with the complexity associated with Multicloud is something that Anthos definitely helps with. >> Yes, you know, Google is best with complexity at scale, we've been running containers and really large environments for many years. And some of those principles really, you know, have been fundamental to the way we've started with Kubernetes. So the idea of the declarative intent and automation is really critical in managing large environment and high complexity because in those environments, lots of things can change, but with the declarative approach, you don't have to anticipate everything that is going to change, but you need to know what is your desired state. And that's really one way that Anthos is leveraging the Kubernetes primitives and those ideas to manage different types of environments. In addition to that, it's actually really adding that layer that I talked about before, around the easy can I make sure that my tools, right, if it's, for example, a cloud hybrid build or cloud deploy or Anthos service manager, Anthos config manager, can I make sure that this UI, the CLI the API will be consistent in all of those environments? Can I view in one place, all of my clusters, all of my applications, and this is really where Anthos shines. >> So the cloud data foundation had a, had to get together at the same time as, Google Cloud Next. And there's been a lot of discussion around topics like security. I just like to get your thoughts on, you know, what what's at the forefront of your mind, working in engineering at Google, working in this world where people are deploying Anthos, working in a world where in a multi-cloud environment, you don't necessarily have control as vice president of engineering at Google over what's happening in these other clouds. So what are some of the things that are at the front of your mind is security one of them, what are your thoughts? >> Security is top of mine. Similar to all of our customers and definitely internally. And there are many things that we are very worried about or create some risks. You know, we've just started talking about the secure central supply chain, by building with open source, how can we make sure that everything is secure, right? Then we know what is the contribution that's from the software that we are delivering, how can we make sure that the security posture is portable, right? We talked about workloads portability. We talked about skills portability, and experience, but really I think the next phase for us as an industry is to think about security posture portability. Can I really apply the same policy everywhere and still make sure that I have the right controls in place, which will have to be different depending on the environment, and to make sure that that really is the case. So lots of work around that, and again, talking about the other things we talked about. We talked about open and flexibility, how can you make sure that it's easy? One of the areas that we are very excited about is really around binary authorization, for example. So when you use our tools like cloud build, cloud deploy, artifact, registry, you can get your container images automatically scanned for vulnerabilities and tools like onto service mesh, which allows you to actually manage your security posture, traffic management, who can access what without doing any changes to your applications. >> Fantastic stuff. As we, as we wrap up our time here, do you have any final thoughts on the direction of cloud where we are in the adoption curve? You know, by some estimates, something like 75% of IT is still happening on premises. There've been some announcements coming out of Cloud Next regarding the ability to run all sorts of Google goodness on premises. So we seem to all be acknowledging that we're going to be in a bit of a hybrid world, in addition to a multicloud world, moving forward. Do you want to place any bets on, on when we'll hit the 50, 50 mark or the 25% on premises, 75% cloud mark. What do you think? >> Yeah, I'm not the best gambler to be honest, but I do have a thought about that. I think what's interesting is that customers started to talk, you know, few years back, it was, hey, I have my on-prem environment and I have the cloud. How can they, these two work together. And now what we see our customers talking, you know, they're on premises, their edge is part of their cloud strategy. It's not separated. And I think this is what we'll see more and more of, right? Regardless if this is your private cloud or public cloud, your edge, we would like to have a cloud like experience in that environment and consistency. And of course, we would love to leverage all the goodness of the cloud. If it's like machine learning, AI, and other capabilities, automation, everywhere we go. So I think this is the biggest change we're starting to see. And in addition to that, I think we will see, today everybody are already multicloud cloud, right? If it's recquisitions and just by cause of bottom up culture, you know, people choose different services. And I expect we'll see more strategic thinking about our customers multicloud strategy. Where do I deploy my workloads? What are the benefits? If it's latency, if it's specific services that are available, maybe cost, we'll see the customers becoming more intentional about that and this is really exciting. >> Well Chen, amazing insights. It's obvious why you're a cube veteran. It's obviously why we seek you out for your counsel and guidance on a variety of subjects. Thank you so much for spending time with us today in this cube conversation. With that I'd like to thank you for joining us. Until next time, I'm Dave Nicholson, thanks for joining (peaceful music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's the Cube, covering Google Cloud Next '19. Brought to you by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone live here in San Francisco at Moscone, this is the Cube's live coverage of Google Next 2019, #googlenext19. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, as well as David Vellante, who has been co-host, he's out there getting stories and getting all the scoop. We are here with two great guests, Cube alumni's, Aparna Sinha, the Group Product Manager at Google, and Chen Goldberg, director of Engineering, Google. Both the architects of the big wave that we're riding. Containers, kubernetes, and anthos. Guys, great to see you, thanks for coming on again. >> Aparna: Thanks for having us, great to be here. >> Chen: Thank you. >> So, you were smirking last night when we saw each other at the press gathering, knowing what was coming. I watched the keynote, it was awesome. I didn't get a chance to see the spotlight session you guys just had, but Anthos, obviously the rebranding and the additional integration points for making things run end to end, this is our dream come true, Devops Infrastructure as Code is happening, we've been talking about this for a while, you guys are behind it all, give us the update. >> So we've been hard at work over the last eight months since our last Next. Can you believe that it's only been eight months? Last year we were here announcing GK On Prem. This year we've rebranded CSP to Anthos and enlarged it and we've moved it to GA. So that's the big announcement. In our spotlight we actually walked through all the pieces and gave three live demos, as well as had two customers on stage and really the big difference in the eight months is while we're moving to GA now we've been working throughout this time with a set of customers. We saw unprecedented demand for what we announced last year and we've had that privilege of working with customers to build the product, which is what's unique really. So we had two of those folks up on stage talking about the transformation that Anthos is creating in their companies. >> I want to get to the customer focus a little bit later, but I want to just get it out on the record while you're here, because there's not a lot of time on stage other than the great demo Jennifer Lynn did. What actually is the difference, what's the new things, because obviously its a rebrand, some people might say, "Oh, they're just rebranding the announcement from last year", what were the new things, what are the new elements of Anthos, why is it important, what does it mean, what's under the covers, tell us what's new. >> Chen: So, first of all lets talk about, "What is Anthos?" Anthos is a Google opinionated solution that lets you right once, deploy anywhere. Really, the key thing about Anthos is choice. What we've been hearing from our customers, how much they appreciate choice in their journey to the cloud and modernization in general. The main thing that we have announced is that everything we have announced last year is GA. So talking about GKE On Prem, Anthos config management and our marketplace and the control plane from managing multiple classes, all of that has moved to GA. when thinking about choice, we've added new capabilities and one choice that customers are thinking about, "Do I need to choose a single cloud provider?" I had a discussion just yesterday with one of the customers and they said that when they exclude a cloud provider from their strategy, they're actually blocking their own innovation and that might get even a bigger risk for them. So we know that customers are adopting a multi cloud strategy. The big announcement here is that we are moving towards, or maybe we are even leaning more into multi cloud, we already had other solutions that we were talking about and definitely with Kubernetes and Istio talking about open API's, but we are leaning in towards multi cloud strategy, so that would be one. The second thing that talks about choice, is "How do we start?" One thing we are hearing from our customers is the importance that they want to innovate with what they have. So Anthos migrate, lets them take their existing applications, package applications that are running today on VM's and onboard to Anthos automatically and see value. So those are the top two announcements and I think the third one would be around all the partnerships, which is part of the people we've been working with in eight months. >> That's awesome. >> Stu: I'm sorry, the migrate piece, that's not GA yet, am I understanding? >> No, it's moving to beta. >> So Stu, you and I have been talking about applications, Renaissance, multi cloud, obviously is a reality for enterprises. Now you've got the hybrid model, this is kind of in the main themes of what this all means with anthem. So its holistically looking at the cloud, as you said, not just Google Cloud. This is a key nuance, its kind of embedded in the announcement, but its not just Google Cloud. >> That's right and I think in that sense, Anthos is a game changer, its not just an incremental improvement to something that's existing for customers. Its not like its just something faster or cheaper or adds more features, its actually something that allows them to do something they couldn't do before, which is, have a consistent platform that they can use to write once and deploy their workloads anywhere, On Prem, in GCP and that we had, but expanding that to any cloud, not just Google Cloud. >> I want to get your guys' thoughts here because you've got the brain and trust inside Google Cloud, because I've been talking on the cube about this and publicly. There seems to be confusion around what multi cloud means, and a company is an enterprise, there's a lot of things going on in the enterprise, so certainly the enterprise will have multiple workloads. There's certain situations that some people say, "Hey, this workload would be great on this cloud, this workload would be great on that cloud." So its not about having a cloud for cloud's sake. "We have to standardize on Google, we have to standardize on Amazon." Instead, what I hear, and I want to get your thoughts and reaction to is, I'd like to have a workload that has data, highly addressable, really low latency for this workload, and a cloud for this workload, but together its multi cloud, this seems to be a trend, do you guys agree with that? Is that something that you're seeing, is that the main message here? It's not so much standardized on the cloud, but have multiple clouds, pick the right cloud for the job, kind of philosophy. What's your thoughts, this is kind of a philosophical question. >> So this is exactly what we are hearing from our customers about their multicloud strategy and exactly what you are saying. This is actually for most of them is a reality, either because they have been organically building things in the cloud or they want to get to multiple geographies, and it's not only a cloud vendor, we need to remember that On Prem is where most of their workloads are still running and where they still need to innovate or when you talk about retail or banks, they have their branches and their stores where they need to have compute at. Really, services are spread all over. Now the question is, this kind of situation creates a lot of risk for our customers. Security risk and talent fragmentation, which are related, so how can I manage all of those environments? >> The risk is multi cloud, or one cloud? >> So multi cloud actually increases the risk even further, so they already have a multicloud reality. That's their strategy forward, but how can they mitigate risk with that reality? We are talking about kubernetes gave you portability of workloads, but how can you do portability of skills and making sure that your talent can really focus where it matters and not be spread too thin, so this is one example that I think Anthos is really unique about using it from our hosted control plane on GCP. >> So let the workloads decide what's best for the workloads and let the clouds naturally use kubernetes. >> Yeah, I mean one thing I've seen in our customer base is, you know the line of business wants to innovate and they want to use the best service for whatever it is that they're doing and the different clouds have different types of services, they have different strengths. So, you don't want centralized IT to say, "Hey, no actually you can't do that, you have to follow this policy." We've seen many examples where centralized IT is taking months to approve cloud services and they've got a backlong of hundreds of services that they need to approve. That's really slowing down innovation, and, "why is that happening?" Because you don't have a consistent platform that you can run and use across clouds. Like you said, kubernetes actually solves that and so that's why were introducing Anthos based on kubernetes, so that you don't have that risk, you don't have that fragmentation and you can innovate faster. >> Lets do one more question and with compounds to complexity is old procurement rules might slow it down. I've got to buy this. So the old baggage on procurement standards, Its kind of a moving train. >> Yeah, I mean enterprise has its policies, we've been talking to some of they largest banks, we had HSBC on stage with us, we had (mumbles), which is one of the largest grocers, we have kohls, these companies have policies and they have compliance requirements and these are very valid compliance requirements and they need to be adhered to. Its just, how can you speed that process up, and if you have a platform that actually spans environments, it doesn't look different in each environment, you can imagine that simplifies the process, it simplifies the approval process because the platform's already pre-approved and then new services as they come online, if they follow a certain pattern, they're kubernetes approved services, then it's much easier to approve them and it's much easier to unlock that productivity without increasing risk. >> If I could poke on that just a little bit (mumbles) approved services isn't a term I've heard yet. There are dozens of providers that have kubernetes, Anthos I know is different but if I go out there and use kubernetes from a different cloud provider or a different service provider. Kubernetes is not a magic layer, everybody builds lots of stuff on top of that and a concern is if I just have a platform that spans all of these environments. There's skillset challenges and do I also get a least common denominator. Cloud is not a utility, GCP is very different from the other clouds, how do I balance that and how do I make sure that I'm actually being able to get the most out of why I choose a specific platform or cloud. >> That's where Anthos is that layer that actually is more than kubernetes. We have, in Anthos, an opinionated platform from google that utilizes kubernetes but it isn't just pure kubernetes, as you would experience it from the open source with the fragmentation, we're working with certified kubernetes distributions and we've got this marketplace where the applications that are in the marketplace have been tested and certified and are supported by a set of partners as well as by Google Cloud to run on these different distributions that you connect and register with Anthos. >> To give maybe another perspective of that, what we have seen with kubernetes is that customers do appreciate that consistency. They have been demanding, for example, that all kubernetes distribution will be conformed. We had that announcement when we were on stage today about consistency and how we can integrate PKS into Anthos. I think what customers are telling us, they don't want us to innovate in that layer. So they appreciate us using open API's and using sensibility which is predefined and actually allows that interoperability of services and this is something that is really in the foundation of Anthos. >> Well you guys have done a great job, we've been following the progress from day one and watching the foundation of Google Enterprise. You guys have been big contributors, congratulations to your work, it's great to see the progress and it seems to be, the train's moving faster on the tracks, so congratulations. I guess my final question for you guys is, boil down Anthos. To the folks watching that are in IT, they're trying to solve some problems, a lot of people realize and wake up, "wow I've got multiple clouds." That's not (mumbles), that's reality. They see billing statements from multiple vendors how they still want maybe hybrid, what does Anthos mean to those people? What is it about, what is it? I'm trying to get bumper sticker. What's the bottom line, what is Anthos? >> So Anthos gives you a choice without the risk. That means that they can choose an existing service or a new green field service to use, On Prem or in the cloud. Containerized or uncontainerized, and they can build on top of that at their own pace. So that's the choice and they can mitigate risk by giving those tools to manage that consistently. The other thing I would say for something that we are not talking a lot about because we are focusing about technology and requirements and constraints is what we hear about our customers that Anthos is good for the engineering teams, and what we hear our customers say, that because they are choosing this technology, their talent is appreciating that they can use the best and latest technology and their skills are portable to other areas as well and they can attract the best talent. That to me is a very big value for us that are looking to do digital transformation. >> I'll take a crack at it as well, so Anthos is Google's opinionated solution for hybrid and multi cloud and it is like Chen said, something that mitigates risk and gives users choice so that they're not locked in to a particular cloud and instead, they can build once and deploy anywhere. From a technical standpoint, it's three things. There's a multi cluster, multi cloud, management plane, that's hosted in Google Cloud. Number two, there's a service management layer which actually bridges your monolithic, migrated services with your green field services that are containerized and treats them all as services that you can secure, manage, and control, and then number three, we have an awesome marketplace from which you can deploy Google Services, you can also deploy partner services, and you can deploy them into anywhere that Anthos is registered and can run. >> So Anthos embraces the cloud, all clouds, all services. >> Anthos embraces the user and it puts the user first. >> Does this benefits, good choice, lock in options, negotiating contracts, developers love it, ... Guys congratulations, thanks for the insight, love the explanation of Anthos, thanks for sharing, appreciate it. (mumbles) Thanks for coming on, cube coverage here live in San Fransisco, we're breaking it down, Google Next 19, day one of three days, there'll be live cube coverage. We have all the leaders, google executives, all the engineers, coming on to explain to us what's happening, thanks for watching, stay with us for more after this short break. (funky music)

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Google cloud next 2018 brought to you by Google cloud and its ecosystem partners ok welcome back everyone we're live here in San Francisco this is the cubes exclusive coverage of Google clouds event next 18 Google next 18 s the hashtag we got two great guests talking about services kubernetes sto and the future of cloud aparna scene how's the group product manager of kubernetes and we have hen goldberg director of engineering of google cloud - amazing cube alumni x' really awesome guests here to break down why kubernetes why is Google cloud really doubling down on that is do a variety of other great multi cloud and on-premise activities guys welcome to the queue great to see you guys again thank you always a pleasure and again you know we love kubernetes the CN CF and we've talked many times about you know we were riffing and you know Luke who Chuck it was on Francisco who loves sto we thought service meshes are amazing you guys had a great open source presence with cube flow and a variety of other great things the open source contribution is recognized by Diane green and the whole industry as number one congratulations why is this deal so important we're seeing the big news at least for me this kind of nuances one datos available you get general availability we're supposed to be kind of after kubernetes made it but now sto is now happening faster why so what we've seen in the industry is that it only becomes too easy to create micro services or services overall but we still want to move fast so with the industry today how can you make sure that you have the right security policies how do you manage those services at scale and what if tio does really in one sense is to expand it it's decoupled the service development from the service operations so developers are free they don't need to take care of monitoring audit logging network traffic for example but instead the operation team has really sophisticated tool to manage all of that on behalf of the developers in a consistent way you know Penn and I did a session yesterday a spotlight session and it covered cloud services platform including ISTE oh we had a guest from eBay and eBay has been with Google kubernetes engine for a long time and they're also a contributor to the kubernetes open source project they talked about how they have hundreds of micro services and they're written in different languages so they're using gold Python Ruby everything under the Sun and as an operator how do you figure out how the services are communicating with each other how do you know which ones are healthy so they I asked him you know so how did you solve that complexity problem and he said boom you assist EO and I deployed this deal it deploys as just kind of like a sidecar proxy and it's auto injected so none of your developers have to do anything and then it's available in every service and it gives you so much out of the box it gives you traffic management it gives you security it gives you observability it gives you the ability to set quotas and to have SL o--'s and and that's really you know something that operators haven't had before describe SL lows for a second what is why is that important objectives so you can see an example so you can have an availability objective that this service should always always be available you know 99.9 percent of the time that's an SLO or you know the response rate needs to be have a certain type of latency so you can have a latency SLO but the key here with this deal is that as an operator previously Jeff was working Jeff from eBay he was working at the at the VM or container or network port level now he's working at the service level so he understands intelligence about the parts of the application that weren't there before and that has two things it makes him powerful right and more intelligent and secondly the developer doesn't need to worry about those things and I think one of the things for network guys out there is that it's like policy breeze policy to the equation now I want to ask course on the auto injections what's the role of the how much coding is involved in doing this zero coding how much how much developer times involved in injecting the sidecar proxies zero from a developer perspective that's not something that you need to worry about you you can focus on you know the chatbot your writing or the webpage your writing or whatever logic you're developing that's critical for your business that's gonna make you more competitive that's why you were hired as a developer right so you don't have to worry about the auto injection of sto and what we announced was really managed it's d1 gke so that's something that Google will manage for you in the future oh go ahead I want less thing about sto I think it also represented changing the transformation because before we were all about kubernetes and containers but definitely when we see the adoption the complexity is much broader so in DCP were actually introducing new solutions that are appropriate for that so easier for example works on both container eyes applications and VM based applications cloud build that we announced right it also works across applications of all types doesn't have to be only containers we introduced some tools for multi cluster management because we know all customers have multi cluster the large ones so really thinking about it how is in a holistic way we are solving those problems we've seen Google evolve its position in the enterprise clearly when we John and I first started talking to Google about cloud is like everything's going to cloud now we're seeing a lot of recognition of some of the challenges that enterprises face we heard a lot of announcements today that are resonating or going to resonate with the enterprise can you talk about the cloud services platform is that essentially your hybrid strategy is it encompass that maybe you could talk about that little bit closer services platform is a big part of our hybrid cloud strategy I mean for as a Google platform we also have networking and compute and we bridge private and public and that's a foundation but cloud services platform it comes from our heritage with open source it comes from our engagement with many large enterprises banks healthcare institutions retailers do so many of them here you know we had HSBC speaking we had target speaking we know that there are large portions of enterprise IT that are going to remain on premise that have to remain on premise because you know they're in a branch office or they have some sort of regulatory compliance or you know that's just where their developers are and they want to have a local environment so so we're very very sensitive and and knowledgeable about that and that's why we introduced cloud services platform as Google's technology in your environment on Prem so you can modernize where you are at your own pace so some of the things we heard today in the keynote we heard support for Oracle RAC and Exadata and sa P that's obviously traditional enterprises partnership with NetApp cloud armor shielded VMs these are all you know traditional enterprise things what enterprise grade features should we be looking for from cloud services platform so the first one which I actually love the most is the G key policy management one of the things we've heard from our customers they say okay portability is great consistency great but we want security portability right they now have those all of those environment how can they ensure that they're combined with the gtp are in all of their environments how they manage tenants in all of their environments in the same way and G key policy measurement is exactly that okay we're allowing customers to apply the same policy while not locking them in okay we're fully compatible with the kubernetes approach and the primitives of our bug enrolls but it is also aligned with G CPI M so you can actually manage it once and apply it to all your environment including clusters kubernetes cluster everywhere you have so I expect we'll have more and more effort in this area I'm making sure that everything is secured and consistent auto-scaling is that enterprise greed auto-scaling yes yes I mean auto-scaling is a inherent part of kubernetes so kubernetes scales your pods automatically that's a very mature I mean it's been stable for more than a year or probably two years and it's used everywhere so auto skip on auto scaling is something that's used and everywhere the thing about gke is that we also do cluster auto scaling cluster auto scaling is actually harder and we not only do it for CPU as we do it for GPUs which is innovative you know so we can scale an auto scale and auto implements Auto provision your GPUs if you machine learning we're gonna bring that on-prem - it's not in the first version but that's something that with the approach that we've taken to GK on Prem we're gonna be adding those kinds of capabilities that gonna be the go on parameters it's just an extension just got to get the job done or what time frame we look API that we've built it's a downward API that works with some sort of hardware clustering technology right now it's working with vSphere right and so it basically if you're under an underlying technology has that capability we will auto scale the cluster in the future you know I got to say you guys are like the dynamic duo of kubernetes seen you in the shows you had Linux Foundation events talk about the relationship between you guys you have an engineering your product management how were you guys organizer you're moving fast I mean just the progress since we've been interviewing you to CN CF segoe all just been significant since we started talking on the cube you see in kubernetes obviously you guys have some inside knowledge of that but it's really moving fast how is the team organized what's the magic internal formula that you guys are engineering and you guys are working as a team I've seen you guys opens is it just open stores is the internal talk about some of the dynamics we're working as one team one thing I love mostly about the Google culture is about doing the right thing for the user like the announcements you've seen yesterday on the on the keynote there are many many teams and I've been working together you know to get that done but you cannot see that right you don't see that there are so many different teams and different product managers and different engineering managers all working together but well I I think where we are right now I know is that really Google is backing up kubernetes and you can see it everywhere right you can see with ours our announcement about key native yeah for example so the idea of portability the idea of no lock-in is really important for us the idea of open cloud freedom of choice so because we're all aligned to that direction and we all agree about the principles is actually super easy to the she's very modest you know this type of thing doesn't just happen by itself right I mean of course google has a wonderful culture and we have a great team but I you know I really enjoy working with hen and she is an amazing leader she is the leader of the engineering team she also brings together these other teams you know every large company has many teams and the announcement at the scale that we made it and the vision that you see the cohesiveness of it right it comes from collaboration it comes from thinking as a team and you know the management and leadership depend has brought to the kubernetes project and to kubernetes and gke and cloud services platform is phenomenal it's an inspiration I really enjoy the progress congratulate and it's been great progress so I hear a lot of customers talk about things like hey you know they evaluate vendors you know those guys have done the work and it's kind of a categorical way of saying it's complete they're working hard they're doing the right things as you guys continue this mission what's some of the work that you're continuing to what's the work that you guys are doing the work we see some of that evidence if it does ascribe to someone says hey have you done the work to earn the cred in the crowd cloud what would it be how would you describe the work that you've done and the work that you're doing and continue to do what does that work what would you say that I mean I hope that we have done the work to you know to earn the credit I think we're very very conscientious you know in the kubernetes open source project I can say we have 300 plus contributors we are working not just on the future functionality but we work on the testing and the we work on the QA we work on all the documentation stuff we work on all the nitty-gritty details so I think that's where we earn the credit on the open source side I think in cloud and in Enterprise do well you're seeing a lot of it here today you know the announcements that you mentioned we're very very cognizant and I think the thing I like about one of the things that Diane said I liked very much as I think the industry underestimates us well when you talk about well we look at the kubernetes if I can call it a playbook it took the world by storm obviously solving some of your own problems you open source it develop the community should we think about it Co the same it's still the same way are you going to use that sort of similar approach it seems to be working yes doing open source is not easy okay managing and investing and building something like kubernetes requires a lot of effort by the way not just from Google we have a lot of people that working full time just on kubernetes the way we look at that we we look about the thing that we have valued the most like portability for example if there is anything that you would like to make a standard like with K native those are kind of thing that we really want to bring to the industry as open source technologies because we want to make sure that they will work for customers everywhere right we need we need to be genuine and really stand behind what we were saying to our customers so this is the way we look at things again another example you can see about Q flow right so we actually have a lot of examples or we want to make sure that we give those options so that's one it's one is for the customer the second thing I want actually the emphasize is the ecosystem and partners yeah we know that innovation not a lot of innovation will come from Google and we want to make sure that we empower our powders and the ecosystem to build new solutions and is again another way to do it yes I mean because we're talking before we came on camera about the importance of ecosystems Dave and I have covered many industries within you know enterprise and now cloud and big data and I see blockchain on the horizon another part of our coverage area ecosystems are super important when you have openness and you have inclusion inclusion Airy culture around building together and co-creation this is the ethos of open source but people need to make money right so at the end of the day we're you guys are not you're not a non-profit you know it's gonna make profit so instead of the partners so as the world turns to cloud there's going to be new value opportunities how do you guys view that ecosystem because is it yeah is it more educational is it more just keep up a lot of people want to be on the right side of history with cloud and begin a lot of things are changing how do you guys view that ecosystem in terms of nurturing it identifying it working with it building it sharing what's your thoughts sure you know I I believe that new technology comes with lots of opportunity we've seen this with kubernetes and I think going forward we see it it's not a zero-sum game you know there's a huge ecosystem that's grown up around kubernetes and now we see actually around sto a huge ecosystem as well the types of opportunities in the value chain I think that it changes it's not what it used to be right it's not so much I think taking care of hardware racking and stacking hardware it's higher level when we talked about SEO and how that raises the level of management I think there's a huge role for operators it's a transformative role you know and we've seen it at Google we have this thing called site reliability engineering sre it's a big thing like those people are God you know when it comes to your services I think that's gonna happen in the enterprise that's gonna be a real role that's an Operations role and then of course developers their life changes and I think even like for regular people you know for kids for you and I and normal people they can become developers and start writing applications so I think there's a huge shift that's a huge thing you're touching on a lot of areas of IT transformation you know talking about the operations piece we've touched upon some of the application development how do you guys look at IT transformation and what are some of your customers doing IT transformation is enabled by you know this raising of the level of abstraction by having a multi cluster multi cloud environment what I see in in the customer base is that they don't want to be limited to one type of cloud they don't want to be limited to just what's on Prem or just what's in one you know in any one cloud they want to be able to consume best-of-breed they want to be able to take what they have and modernize it even if it's even if they can't completely rewrite or even if they can't completely transform it they want to be able they wanted to be able to participate so they even they want their mainframes to be able to participate but yeah I had one customers say you know I I don't want to have two platforms a slow platform and a fast platform I want just a fast platform know about the future now as we end the segment here I want to get your thoughts we're gonna see CN CF s coming up to Seattle in a couple months and also his ST O's got great traction with I'll see with the support and and general availability but what's the impact of the customers because gke Google Cabernets engine is evolving to be the single in her face it's almost as ease of use because that's a real part of what you guys are trying to do is make it easy the abstraction layer is gonna create new business models obviously we see that with the transformation fee she were just mentioning the end of the day I got to operate something I'm a network guy I'm now gonna might be a operating the entire environment I'm gonna enable my developers to be modern fast or whatever they want to be in the day you got to run things got to manage it so what does gke turn into what's the vision can you share your thoughts on on how this transforms and what's the trajectory look like so our goal is actually to help automate that for our customers so they can focus elsewhere as we said from the operations perspective making things more reliable defining the SLO understanding what kind of service they want to provide their customers and our hope you know you can again you can see in other things that we are building like Auto ml okay actually giving more tools to provide those capabilities to the application I think that's really see more and more so the operators will manage services and they will do it across clusters and across environments this is this is a new skill set you know it's the sre skill set but but even bigger because it's not just in one cloud it's across clouds yeah it's not easy they're gonna do it with centralized policy centralized control security compliance all of that so you see us re which is site reliability engineers at Google term but you see that being a role in enterprises and it's also knowing what services to use when what's going to be the most cost effective the right service for the right job that's really an important point I agree I think yeah I think security I think cost perspective was something definitely that will see enterprises investing more in and understanding and how they can leverage that right for their own benefit the admin the operator is gonna say okay I've got this on Prem I've got these three different regions I have to be that traffic coordinator to figure out who can talk to who where should this traffic go there's who should have how much quota all of that right that's the operator role that's the new roles so it's a it's an opportunity for operations people who might have spent their lives managing lawns to really transform their careers yes there's no better time to be an operator I mean you can I want to be an operator and I can't tell you how my dear sorry impacts our team like the engineering team how much they bring the focus on customer the service we are giving to our customers thinking about our services in different ways I think that actually is super important for any engineering team to have that balance okay final questions just put you on the spot real quick answer great stuff congratulations on the work you guys are doing great to follow the progress but I'm a customer I'll put my customer hat on par in ahead I can get that on Amazon Microsoft's got kubernetes why Google cloud what makes Google cloud different if kubernetes is open why should I use Google Cloud so you're right and the wonderful thing is that Google is actually all in kubernetes and we are the first public cloud that actually providing a managed kubernetes on-prem well the first cloud provider to have a GCP marketplace with a kubernetes application production-ready with our partners so if you're all in kubernetes I would say that it's obvious yeah III see most of the customers wanting to be multi cloud and to have choice and that is something that you know is very aligned with what we're look at this crowd win open source is winning great to have you on a part of hend thanks for coming on dynamic duo and kubernetes is - a lot of new services are happening we're bringing all those services here in the cube it's our content here from Google cloud Google next I'm Jennifer and David Lonnie we'll be right back stay with us for more day two coverage after this short break thank you

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in Boston. Happy to welcome back to the program, Chen Goldberg, who's the Engineering Director at Google. Chen, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you, it's always a pleasure. >> So Chen, what are the big questions coming in? We talked to you at the KubeCon Show before. You know, Kubernetes, you know, Cloud Foundry, containers, serverless, all these things mashing up. You've been here at the show for about a day, what have you learned so far? How do all these kind of fit together in your mind? >> So actually, it was great being here for the last day, 24 hours so far, and just seeing how Cloud Foundry Community is really opening and welcoming influence from other communities in the cloud native space. And we see it in different ways. We see work that is being done on building some open standards, for example, and so working with the Cloud Foundry on things like OCI, the Open Container Initiative, and the CSI, which is the Container Storage Interface. But not only that, for example, we in Google have been working, last year, building Kubo, which then became the Cloud Foundry Container Runtime, and really bringing things together. And I think that's awesome because like any other technology, we need to know how we can take the best out of everything. And this is what really, user wants to know. They want to know that when they are making a decision or a choice of a technology, that technology can move with them forward. The last thing that we also see all of interest about the Open Service Broker and how you can really mesh things together with different platforms. >> Chen, I'm wondering if you can help us squint through this a little bit. And we've heard Google talking for a while about Open Cloud, and that means it doesn't beam all one source in the public cloud portability between clouds, public and private. Google's had many partnerships over the years with there. How do these pieces fit together in your mind? >> I think it all starts with what user wants. Okay, I always talk about the customer and what is their pain? And the pain, in reality is that they have a very complex environment, okay? They have on-prem. They want to use some of the cloud services. Sometimes they have some places, like we hear it from retail, they have some warehouses, that they don't have actually good connectivity, but they still want to serve, they still want to have the guild transformation. And, I think, that's the main thing that what we hear from users, that they want to have that flexibility over to run their business. Okay, because this is what they really have to do and they want to compete more effectively. So, think about that. The other piece which we hear about users is that they want to make sure like we talked about Cloud Foundry before. They want to make sure that the infrastructure they choose though, that the tools will allow them to evolve, and that can be in different ways. It can be about maybe having flexibility to choose different tools, but also not to be locked in to a specific vendor because that happened to them before, right? So, they want to make sure that they can continue and move forward because the technology we know today maybe, probably will change in the future. So, by having all of that together, that leads us to some of the pieces I've talked about in the keynote. And the first one is portability. We achieve it by open source. We believe in open source because it does bring the community together. We learn about users, partners. We have an amazing ecosystem. So that's one. The second piece is about its sensibility and this is where you can see how Cloud Foundry can actually integrate into Kubernetes. It's because of those extension points. We don't know where innovation will come from. What will be the next cool thing? And back in KubeCon, I talked about some serverless framework we see on top of Kubernetes. All of that is possible through those extensions. Open Service Broker is actually a combination of two. So Open Service Broker is an open standard. It allows you to consume services from different platforms. We saw, in the keynote, so Google is announcing, now in beta, the Google Managed Service Broker, supporting the Open Service Broker API. And you consume it out from any Kubernetes cluster that are using a catalog, service catalog. And it is available also through those extensions. So when we think about Open Hybrid Cloud, we think about that you can run it anywhere. And either you have interopabilities, so you can consume different tools and you can extend it and innovate on top of it. So that's our way of thinking. >> Yeah, I mean, we know the only thing that's constant in this industry today is change. >> Yes. >> One of the things we've been tracking is if I look at an application, it used to be I deploy an application, it takes me 12-18 months at least, and then, once I'm running it, gosh. Yeah, sure, were going to run it for three to five years but, no, no, actually, we're going to run it for 10-12 years. We're going to keep it longer. How does this kind of decomposability of applications and having things and more components? We talk about things like flexibility and speed but, you know, how do you hear from customers, really, from the application side of things? >> This is all about microservices? >> Yeah. >> Right? Just making sure that your application is architected in a way that allows you to change things. I think also that developers are now used to that cycle which is really fast. I'm talking about agility and how quickly you can deploy changes. You know, I keep talking with my engineering team, like don't get too attached (laughs) to anything because things do change and requirements change all the time, and if you're building your application right, you can do those changes. For example, again, going back to the Open Service Broker, you can use a service. First of all, maybe your own service, like your own SQL. But then you can use through a managed service like if you are running on G Key or having Cloud Foundry running on GCP, then you can use one of the managed services offered by Google. >> Okay, anything new you're hearing from users? What are some of their biggest challenges? What's exciting them these days? >> So it depends which user and also who you talk in that audience. Yeah, I think developers are still very excited about the opportunity and the different tools and open source and how quickly the technology is moving forward. When we talk with enterprise, they are very excited about consistency because it's hard. That complexity and managing all of it is really hard to train your operational teams and the developers on different tools. So they are very much concerned about that, their TCO. So they care about, of course, the cost of the infrastructure, but also the people. Right, we don't talk about how hard it is to train and change technology, technologies, all during a cultural change within an organization. So, they care about consistency and this is something that is really in the heart of the thing that we are building. So starting with Kubernetes, we talk about flexibility without compromising consistency. And you do it by building obstructions and letting everyone own a different piece. And there's always some excitement about Istio, in that sense, because what it allows you is to create an obstruction for managing services which is separated from the code that you build. So, let's say you want to, for example, deploy a new policy of access control to your services, you can do it through Istio, because you have proxies in front of all your services, regardless of what they run, by the way. You can have services on VMs, on Cloud Foundry, on a Google Kubernetes engine, or anything, anywhere else you actually would like to have them. And you have that consistent layer in front of all of them. You can do troubleshooting easier because you will have the same matrix and data and telometry on top of it. And so, moving into that direction, creating more obstructions that are creating less friction for the end-user, while still allowing just the platform to evolve, right? If you have this platform on top of it, you can still move services from running from one platform to another, but that person that is using the data, actually, their experience won't change. >> Alright, Chen, what should we be looking for from Google and Eureka's system for the rest of 2018? >> So, of course, we continue and invest a lot in Kubernetes and its ecosystem, and you can see it all the time. All the time, we are bringing more and more tools in open source, showing some of our best practices of how we manage development and production into the community. Some of it is in, like project, like developer experience project, like scaffold, and others that were announced in the last few months. So we will see more of those coming. And in some ways, it's also around the best practices. So, we have been delivering messages of how you should run your clusters or application more secured. And, of course, some of those offerings will be on GCP. But that's another area where we are heavily investing. We have a lot of experience and we are happy to share that. >> Well okay, last question I have for you, is the world becoming more Googly? Or is Google becoming more like the rest of the world? (Stu and Chen laugh) >> I want to say that the world becoming more Googly. (laughs) Being Googly means many things for people here in the, that maybe don't know what means. To me, being Googly is being nice and being kind, and also, being open to more ideas and that's what I would hope to see the world moving towards. But yes, but definitely Google, as part of it being Googly, is working, continuing to work with the community and get feedback, and that's great. >> Okay, well, Chen Goldberg, it's a pleasure to catch up with you again. We will have lots more Google content (Chen laughs) and Googly guests, not only here at the Cloud Foundry Summmit, we're going to be at KubeCon, Copenhagen, as well as KubeCon, Seattle, at the end of the year, and really excited to say that we will be at the Google Cloud Next Show >> Aww. >> this summer, so, look for lots more of theCUBE. >> Thank you, Chen, for joining me. >> That's exciting. >> I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of CloudNativeCon and Kubecon for Kubernetes conference. This is the second year, it's really getting large, community's awesome. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm here with Stu Miniman, Wikibon analyst with SiliconANGLE. Our next guest is Chen Goldberg, engineering director at Google; on stage today, Keynote. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you very much for inviting me. >> We'd love to have Google on... Google is the guard in cloud, you guys are doing a lot of amazing technology, it's fun to watch. It's also fun to watch how Google's handled the Kubernetes evolution. I know it was a hard decision internally from the conversation we had with Craig, back in the day, and Brendan. But really, what a good decision that was, to bring it out into the open, CNCF gets ahold of it, really created a community here, so congratulations. >> Thank you. I think there is more to that than just bringing it to the open and creating a community, it's also about the culture and values. I've started in my Keynote talking about empowerment. But this is really one of the core values of the engineering culture in Google. That anyone can come up with a great idea. So having that thought into the design of Kubernetes with modularity and extensibility is really key. >> And you guys are no stranger to large-scale technology. We've been talking on theCUBE here and certainly for the past year about the democratization with containers and microservices. Really showing a clear path to value, you start to have this accelerated goodness happening in developer community. You've got software engineering happening at levels of the stack, and then you've got really focused application development happening, infrastructurous code. Kind of for the first time, we're starting to see some real cohesiveness there, on both sides. >> We are getting there. I will not say we are there already, but definitely, that's the goal. >> What are you most excited about with Kubernetes here at the show, what are some of the things that you see that's standing out for you in Kubernetes? >> I would say two things. The first one is, if you have noticed, in all the Keynotes, there was a very consistent message coming from all the speakers, regardless of what company they're on. So in my mind, it just shows that the leadership of the Kubernetes community is aligned. We have the same vision in mind. We all know it's just the beginning. We all know that there's more work to do. We all talk about the core: extensibility, and I'm happy to see that. And we all talk about the same values, by the way. Which is also very important. Because I've been an engineering major for many years, and in my mind, the key of building a strong team is with the alignment of the leadership. Once you have that, you can do whatever you want. >> Google has a long history of just building amazing technology. One of the knocks is sometimes the industry is like "Well Google builds really amazing stuff "that only Google people can understand how to use." We've talked to the founder of Kubernetes, and they said "Well, we wanted to help bring some "of that operating model to the world." It sure feels like, at this show, it feels a little bit more Google-y. If I can use the term. What have you been seeing out there? What do you hear when you talk with the community, with customers? >> I think that one thing that helped my team work well with Kubernetes' community is being Google-y, and being humble, and listening, and being pragmatic. You know, there was asked today, at Zig Architecture, a team said that he had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale, they know how to do it, but realistically, most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity, for example. >> Scale is one of those things that we all bat around as to what scale really means. There's only a handful of customers that have Google type of scale, so what does it mean when you're building these type of technologies? What does scale mean to the community and the customers? Scale. >> From the perspective of the community, what it means? >> Like when Kubernetes, all these projects, you said limit to 100 nodes, I've heard there were some people that... >> So now it's 5000 nodes. >> Okay, 5000. But there have been some alternatives to Kubernetes that said Kubernetes didn't scale big enough, and I've yet to find customers that say that. >> I think, again going to be pragmatic, is what do you do first, and how do you show value when building a product? So when we started, the 100 nodes was sufficient. Today, we support 5000 nodes. Do you want to grow than that, think there are better ways to scale than just improve with nodes? For example, we are supporting, again, part of the vision of Kubernetes is the multi-workloads. Can you take the same cluster and run different type of workloads and then utilize the resources in a more efficient way? Because there's also, of course, the toll of managing different nodes. Scale is on many aspects, you usually think about how you scale your team. This will mean, again, that I think Google is bringing a lot to the community. We have, for example, our SRE team did a talk here in Kubecon on how we are managing our clusters. And how we bring our own experience, and much of the automation of a Kubernetes cluster is built on top of our experience. Saying that, this is also where we differentiate. Our goal is to bring everything we know from Google into the Kubernetes community. The tooling, developer experience, this is what we bring as add on to the Kubernetes. Operational excellence, we do that for you. >> You've done that. You've had great container mindset from day one. Not so much VMs either so you had that microservices vision. When you guys look at building the cloud for customers, we are seeing that customers aren't yet there yet, some are, they seek, they want microservices, but they're still in their old VM worlds of dealing with virtual machines and some bare metal. How is Kubernetes an opportunity for customers? Because they're looking at this announcement, saying "I like Cloud-Native, I like Kubernetes. "This is good for me. "I got to get more developers, I have to port my applications." They're going to need some cloud to go with that. Your thoughts. >> I have many thoughts on that. Definitely we cannot cover that in the time we have. I do believe in containerization and Kubernetes. I do expect that the majority of the workloads, at least in clouds, will be containerized. Saying that, I'm confident that not all of them will be containerized. Which is important to acknowledge. Definitely in building such a platform. I think the first value that Kubernetes brings to those customers is that they can have it on-prem. And it's easy to manage, and with the new set of technologies, like Estio, for example, and our effort to, and a service vocal to be across broader than just Kubernetes, we are allowing them to have a hybrid setting, even within their own prem. So I can manage with Kubernetes, but also have some other workloads. And you can see that much of the obstruction that we are trying to build in the co-ed community. We are trying to make sure that they will be relevant outside of the Kubernetes scope, because we acknowledge that. >> Could you expand on, you were talking about Kubernetes can be both on-premises and the public cloud, obviously Google Cloud has to be a major focus for what you're doing. How do you look at that experience between the data center and the public cloud? I know it's a pretty broad question, but. >> So some things are similar. For example, from tuning perspective and experience, I think that we can, we, and also customers on-prem can achieve a consistent experience whatever they run. Like for example, we have some little customers that are running Kubernetes on the warehouse and in the data centers, and they are happy with that. You can probably not get to zero to one, and you can not just start a new node, so your auto-scaling is different from management prospective. Upgrade, of course other aspects, but the way we are working with some obstructions, we are allowing the vendors in particular to make sure that there is a good foundation to run Kubernetes on-prem. >> And I want to get your thoughts on the questions. So pretend that I bring you into a talk, and in the audience is all these IT, architects, and CIOs, and CDOs, and CSOs, and I raise my hand, I say "And why should I go, I like the vision, "but what does it mean to me? "I have all this stuff." >> Consistency. >> What talk do you give to those folks and saying "Here's what Kubernetes is, here's what "the impact is for you, and here's some of the outcomes you might see if you go down that path." >> I talk about consistency and freedom of choice. I've been working for a long time with IT teams, and also including myself building software. And where we spend most of our money and time... It's not about even building more hollow, it's about educating teams and mobility of engineers. And then there is a new technology or something that takes all of effort to bake into whatever we already have existing, and I think that's the promise for enterprises. Imagine that everything run on Kubernetes. And it's the same Kubernetes everywhere. So how upgrade or application running on Kubernetes will look like. I know how hard it is to do upgrades today. I was in IT department, leading IT department, and that's all that we did. Our annual planning was how we upgrade the middleware and the infrastructure. Q1 we are doing that, Q2, we are doing that. And why? Because it's all very different. And we are trying to get to a place where it's not. I know it's a vision, I know it's a dream. >> ServiceMesh points to this. This is what ServiceMesh can bring. This notion of having this architecture where you can have multiple codebases. >> But it's relying on Kubernetes. It has to have that consistent infrastructure. So that would be one, it would be the consistency between environments. And really the freedom of choice I think is very important, from what I hear from customers. They want to move to cloud in their own pace. They want to move to maybe more than one cloud. So that gives them that ability without being locked-in. >> So we get one piece of the stack that's consistent with Kubernetes, but one of the things we've heard is some people say "It's too complicated", but that's also the opportunity, because every customer can kind of build what they need, you know, build Kubernetes the hard way, and have the adjustments so it's not one solution, a simple kind of homogenous stack, there's a lot of layers there. >> So before you asked me what are the two things that I was most happy seeing here at the con. So the first one was the alignment of the leadership. The other one was the amount of innovation. Like if you look around us, the amount of companies that innovate on top of Kubernetes, I'm super happy about it, like that's a dream come true. >> Two years only, three years maybe. The gestation period's very short. >> Yes. So first of all, Kubernetes is not hard today. Splitting off a cluster is not hard. We did it, we already help fixing that. But there are still harder problems. Talking about developer experience, signing into other environments. We have more things to solve, but it's not just on us. We are building this ecosystem around us that can help you do that. >> One of the things I'm most impressed with this event is, first of all, it's super exciting, great community of smart people really contributing. We had Lifton earlier, I mean just amazing end user, building out scale, donating it, participating. Kind of a new generation of open source is coming. Real, hardcore practitioners who had to build some hard stuff at scale. And you guys, obviously Google's been doing it for many, many years. But now, contributing these gifts. The gifts of open source are, it's amazing. How does someone make, so that means that it's a dream for developers. How do developers make sense of it? If you were a young developer again, just getting into the business, what would you do? How would you attack this? How would you get creative? What would you sink your teeth into? >> So I think two things. So first of all, I think it will change a bit, the industry and the way we innovate. Because I am a believer that the open source pace is faster. That's one thing that we already see, that we have to keep up with everything that is going up in the community. Another thing that I think sometimes we as infrastructure engineers, we forget, this would be boring. There are bigger problems to solve. There are other ways to make the world better. And I would love, as a software engineer, to try and solve those problems. How can we make other processes to have more machine learning? You see my eyes, you see how excited, there's so many more interesting things to solve than this. >> And that's what you guys are enabling. With Kubernetes, that creates an abstraction layer. So I guess the theme going forward is more abstractions and more primitives. Declarative primitives, right? >> Yes. >> We're getting excited here on theCUBE. Chen, you are an inspiration, thanks for coming on theCUBE, I really appreciate it. Keynote was fantastic. >> Thank you very much. >> You had a great shirt on with all the names of all the pioneers and women intact. Certainly awesome to see the great engineering work you guys are doing, congratulations. And of course, we're doing our part, just trying to share that data here, open sourcing the content here on theCUBE at Kubecon and CloudNativeCon. This is theCUBE, I'm John and with Stu. We'll be right back with more live coverage. From Austin, Texas, after this short break. >> Woman: Awesome. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]