>>on March 17th at 8 a.m. >>Pacific. The >>Cube is hosting Israel Day with support from Hewlett Packard. Enterprise I am really excited about is moral. It's H. P s set of solutions that will allow containerized apps and workloads to run >>anywhere. Talking on Prem in the public cloud across clouds >>are really anywhere, including the emergent edge you can think of, as well as a data fabric and a platform to allow you to manage work across all >>these domains. >>That is more all day. We have an exciting lineup of guests, including Kirk Born, who was a famed >>astrophysicist and >>extraordinary data scientist. >>He's from Booz >>Allen. Hamilton will also be joined by my longtime friend Kumar. Sorry >>Conte, who is CEO >>and head of software at HP. In addition, you'll hear from Robert Christiansen >>of HPV will discuss >>data strategies that make sense >>for you, >>and we'll hear from >>customers and partners from around the globe who >>are using as moral >>capabilities to >>create and deploy transformative >>products and solutions that are >>impacting lives every single day. We'll also give you a chance to have a few breakout rooms >>and go deeper on specific topics >>that are important to you, and we'll give you a demo toward the end. So you want to hang around now? Most of all, we >>have a team of experts >>standing by to answer any questions that you may have. >>So please >>do join in on the chat room. It's gonna be a great event. So grab your coffee, your tea or your favorite beverage and grab a note >>pad. We'll see >>you there. March 17th at 8 a.m. >>8 a.m. Pacific >>on the Cube.

>>Yeah. Hey, welcome back. Friday, Jeffrey here with the Cube, come to you from our Palo Alto studios today, talking about event that we're gonna have in November. It's pretty exciting. And to talk about it and give us a little bit of a preview, we're joined in the segment by Jeffrey Hammond. He's the vice president and principal analyst at Forrester. Jeffrey, great to see you. >>It's good to be here, Jeff. Thanks for having me. >>Absolutely so lot of social media memes about. You know, what's driving your digital transformation is the CEO, the CEO or CO of it, and I think we all know what the answer is. But what's what's happened is, as we've, you know, accelerated digital transformation, and we had the lights light switch moment, everybody working from home. We're now six months, eight months into this, and this is gonna be going on for a while. So specifically in the context of Dev Ops, where such a foundation of that is us getting together every morning in a room and having a quick stand up and talking about what our challenges isn't going out to develop. We have been able to do that for six months, and we're probably not gonna be able to do it for a little while longer. So how is Dev? Ops in 2021? The Age of Covert and even Post Cove? It's gonna be different from what we had say 2019. >>Yeah, Jeff. A couple years ago I wrote a piece called Designing Developer Spaces, and it was all about creating physical spaces for agile teams. Toe work in because as creative teams, they needed to have an environment that supported them. And the idea of remote working was kind of like unaudited e. You know, there was a list up on git hub of companies. It's a or did remote developers. And it was maybe 100 companies long at that point. And, you know, now you know, in in 2020 every company is a remote development company. And so all those investments in physical spaces to support cross functional co located teams aren't something that we're able to take advantage of today, and as a result, it's forcing companies Thio become even more disciplined with respect to the things that they do to help development teams work together. It's enforcing them to to, you know, focus on what I would call spiritual co location, because physical co location is no longer an option. And you can't do that without having and even higher attention toe automation on Dev ops practices that enable it, but also an increased focus on enabling digital collaboration, moving from things like the physical con bond wall that you put index cards on onto tools that help you replicate that sort of capability. But do it in a digital world when you have 100% remote developers, right, >>right, so so just begs a lot of questions. You know? What should people be measuring? How should they be measuring? I mean, we have all kinds of measurement tools, and obviously the devolves process is continuous thing that's happening every day, pushing out new releases every day. How dio the managers kind of rethink about how they're measuring outcomes. I don't wanna say success because it's really outcomes and not activity. >>Yeah, it's a really timely question, Jeff. You know, I've been getting a lot of questions from from large enterprise development shops about Well, how doe I make sure that my employees are still productive now that I can't see them. Should I be measuring individual productivity? You know my answers. You know, I don't think so. You really want to be able Thio? You really want to be able Thio measure the team level, But you may want to allow individuals to begin toe look at their own productivity metrics and benchmarks themselves because they can't see the person next to them in the other desk or have that conversation and know that they're doing a good job. So the way that managers works changes significantly. Andi. That's one of the things that we'll talk about in November, >>right? And I'm just curious. How much stuff can we pull from? Generic leadership is well, because it's the same situation. I love your I love your concept of spiritual alignment that's also got to come not only from the Dev Ops team, but from all the senior leadership now who don't necessarily have the opportunity to reinforce those messages in the hallway or whatever the kind of the normal communication channels that they used before. But this this is well beyond Dev ops, but really, you know, leadership in general, I would say, >>Yeah, it comes down to data collaboration and shared vision. You know, those principles are not unique to software development, but they're extremely important for any type of creative work. And and that's what software development is. So we can learn a lot from from from from the businesses, the whole. But then we need to apply it specifically in the process and context of developing software. And that's where Dev Ops creates the link to enable that happened. >>Yeah, really? An interesting kind of fork in the road, if you will. Dev Ops has been around for 20 some odd years. Fundamental change in the way software respect and built and delivered. But as you said, I mean, even by definition, um, cross functional co located teams simply aren't enabled today and probably won't be for a little while longer. So I think this is probably, ah, lot of information that people are really excited to hear. >>Yeah, especially because we're now out of the sprint phase. We're moving into a marathon. We're gonna have to deal with this for probably at least the next 8 to 12 months. So we've got to start thinking differently for the long term and and and how we keep our employees productive. But we also keep them happy and make sure that they aren't burning out so that they're developing great software. That really matters. >>Yeah, that's great. Well, thanks for the little tease we look forward to getting. Ah, a lot more meat in this topic and diving in in November. So, Jeffrey, Thanks for stopping by and again. His Dev Ops Virtual Form, November 18th, 11 a.m. Eastern 80 and Pacific. Jeffrey, we'll see you there. >>Can't wait. It'll be a lot of, um >>Alright. He's Jeffrey. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube, So get ready. Mark your calendars for November. It's the Dev Ops Virtual Forum. Um, November 18 11 a.m. Eastern eight, Pacific Sea There. Thanks for watching.

>>Hey, welcome back Friday, Jeffrey here with the Cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today, talking about event that we're gonna have in November. It's pretty exciting. And to talk about it and give us a little bit of a preview, we're joined in the segment by Jeffrey Hammond. He's the vice president and principal analyst at Forrester. Jeffrey, great to see you. >>It's good to be here, Jeff. Thanks for having me. >>Absolutely so lot of social media memes about. You know, what's driving your digital transformation is the CEO, the CEO or CO of it, and I think we all know what the answer is. But what's what's happened is, as we've, you know, accelerated digital transformation, and we had the lights light switch moment, everybody working from home. We're now six months, eight months into this, and this is gonna be going on for a while. So specifically in the context of Dev Ops, where such a foundation of that is us getting together every morning in a room and having a quick stand up and talking about what our challenges isn't going out to develop. We have been able to do that for six months, and we're probably not gonna be able to do it for a little while longer. So how is Dev? Ops in 2021? The Age of Covert and even Post Cove is gonna be different from what we had say, 2019. >>Yeah, Jeff. A couple years ago I wrote a piece called Designing Developer Spaces. And it was all about creating physical spaces for agile teams. Toe work in because as creative teams, they needed to have an environment that supported them. And the idea of remote working was kind of like unaudited e. You know, there was a list up on git hub of of companies that supported remote developers. And it was maybe 100 companies long at that point. And, you know, now you know, in 2020 every company is a remote development company. And so all those investments in physical spaces, too, for cross functional co located teams aren't something that we're able to take advantage of today, and as a result, it's forcing companies Thio become even more disciplined with respect to the things that they do to help development teams work together. It's enforcing them to to, you know, focus on what I would call spiritual co location because physical co location is no longer an option. And you can't do that without having and even higher attention toe automation on Dev ops practices that enable it, but also an increased focus on enabling digital collaboration. Moving from things like the physical con bond wall that you put index cards on onto tools that help you replicate that sort of capability. But do it in a digital world when you have 100% remote developers, right? >>Right, so so just begs a lot of questions. You know? What should people be measuring? How should they be measuring? I mean, we have all kinds of measurement tools, and obviously the devolves process is continuous thing that's happening every day, pushing out new releases every day. How dio the managers kind of rethink about how they're measuring outcomes. I don't wanna say success because it's really outcomes and not activity. >>Yeah, it's a really timely question, Jeff. You know, I've been getting a lot of questions from from large enterprise development shops about Well, how doe I make sure that my employees are still productive now that I can't see them. Should I be measuring individual productivity? You know my answers. You know, I don't think so. You really want to be able Thio? You really want to be able Thio measure the team level, But you may want to allow individuals to begin toe look at their own productivity metrics and benchmarks themselves because they can't see the person next to them in the other desk or have that conversation and know that they're doing a good job. So the way that managers works changes significantly. Andi. That's one of the things that we'll talk about in November, >>right? And I'm just curious. How much stuff can we pull from? Generic leadership is well, because it's the same situation. I love your I love your concept of spiritual alignment that's also got to come not only from the Dev Ops team, but from all the senior leadership now who don't necessarily have the opportunity to reinforce those messages in the hallway or whatever the kind of the normal communication channels that they used before. But this this is well beyond Dev ops, but really, you know, leadership in general, I would say >>Yeah, it comes down to data collaboration and shared vision. You know, those principles were not unique to software development, but they're extremely important for any type of creative work. And and that's what software development is. So we can learn a lot from from from from the businesses, the whole. But then we need to apply it specifically in the process and context of developing software. And that's where Dev Ops creates the link to enable that happen. >>Yeah, really? An interesting kind of fork in the road, if you will. Dev Ops has been around for 20 some odd years. Fundamental change in the way software respect and built and delivered. But as you said, I mean, even by definition, um, cross functional co located teams simply aren't enabled today and probably won't be for a little while longer. So I think this is probably, ah, lot of information that people are really excited to hear. >>Yeah, especially because we're now out of the sprint phase. We're moving into a marathon. We're gonna have to deal with this for probably at least the next 8 to 12 months. So we've got to start thinking differently for the long term and and and how we keep our employees productive, but we also keep them happy and make sure that they aren't burning out so that they're developing great software. That really matters. >>Yeah, that's great. Well, thanks for the little tease we look forward to getting. Ah, a lot more meat in this topic and diving in in November. So, Jeffrey, Thanks for stopping by and again. His Dev Ops Virtual Form, November 18th, 11 a.m. Eastern 80 and Pacific. Jeffrey, we'll see you there. >>Can't wait. It'll be a lot of, um >>Alright. He's Jeffrey. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube, so get ready. Mark your calendars for November. It's the Dev Ops Virtual Forum. Um, November 18. 11 a.m. Eastern eight, Pacific Sea There. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are Thursday, day four of the RSA Show here in Moscone in San Francisco. It's a beautiful day outside, but the show is still going, 40,000-plus people. A couple of challenges with the coronavirus, and some other things going on, but everybody's here, everybody's staying the course, and I think it's really a good message going forward as to what's going to happen in the show season. We go to a lot of shows. Is 2020 the year we're going to know everything with the benefit of hindsight? It's not quite working out so far that way, but we're bringing in the experts to share the knowledge, and we're excited for our next guest, who's going to help us get to know what the answers are. He's Oliver Sherman, senior director, Enterprise Product Marketing for Juniper Networks. Oliver, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so first off, just general impressions of the show. I'm sure you've been coming here for a little while. >> We have, and I think the show's going very well, as you pointed out, there's a couple of challenges that are around, but I think everybody's staying strong, and pushing through, and really driving the agenda of security. >> So I've got some interesting quotes from you doing a little research for this segment. You said 2019 was the year of enforcement, but 2020 is the year of intelligence. What did you mean by that? >> Specifically, it's around Juniper. We have a Juniper connected security message and strategy that we proved last year by increasing the ability to enforce on all of your infrastructure without having to rip and replace technologies. For instance, on our widely rolled out MX routing platform, we offer second tell to block things like command and control traffic, or on our switching line for campus and data centers, we prevent lateral threat propagation with second tell, allowing you to block hosts as they're infected, and as we rounded that out, and it's a little bit in 2020 we were able to now deliver that on our Mist, or our wireless acquistion that we did last year around this time, so showing the integration of that product portfolio. >> Yeah, we met Bob Friday from Mist. >> Oliver: Excellent. >> He, doing the AI, some of the ethics around AI. >> Oliver: Sure. >> At your guys conference last year. It was pretty interesting conversation. Let's break down what you said a little bit deeper. So you're talking about inside your own product suite, and managing threats across once they get to that level to keep things clean across that first layer of defense. >> Right, well, I mean, whether you're a good packet or a bad packet, you have to traverse the network to be interesting. We've all put our phones in airplane mode at Black Hat or events like that because we don't want anybody on it, but they're really boring when they're offline, but they're also really boring to attackers when they're offline. As soon as you turn them on, you have a problem, or could have a problem, but as things traverse the network, what better place to see who and what's on your network than on the gears, and at the end of the day, we're able to provide that visibility, we're able to provide that enforcement, so as you mentioned, 2020 is now the year of an awareness for us, so the Threat Aware Network. We're able to do things like look at encrypted traffic, do heuristics and analysis to figure out should that even be on my network because as you bring it into a network, and you have to decrypt it, a, there's privacy concerns with that in these times, but also, it's computationally expensive to do that, so it becomes a challenge from both a financial perspective, as well as a compliance perspective, so we're helping solve that so you can offset that traffic, and be able to ensure your network's secure. >> So is that relatively new, and I apologize. I'm not deep into the weeds of feature functionality, but that sounds pretty interesting that you can actually start to do the analysis without encrypting the data, and get some meaningful, insightful information. >> Absolutely, we actually announced it on Monday at 4:45 a.m. Pacific, so it is new. >> Brand new. >> Yes. >> And what's the secret sauce to be able to do that because one would think just by rule encryption would eliminate the ability to really do the analysis, so what analysis can you still do while still keeping the data encrypted? >> You're absolutely right. We're seeing 70 to 80% of internet traffic is now encrypted. Furthermore, bad actors are using that to obfuscate themselves, right, obviously, and then, the magic to that, though, to look at it without having to crack open the package is using things like heuristics that look at connections per second, or connection patterns, or looking at significant exchanges, or even IP addresses to know this is not something you want to let in, and we're seeing a very high rate of success to block things like IoT botnets, for instance, so you'll be seeing more and more of that from us throughout the year, but this is the initial step that we're taking. >> Right, that's great because so much of it it sounds like, a, a lot of it's being generated by machines, but two, it sounds like the profile of the attacks keeps changing quite a bit from a concentrated attacks to more, it sounds like now, everyone's doing the slow creeper to try to get it under the covers. >> Right, and really, you're using your network to your full extent. I mean, a lot of things that we're doing including encrypted traffic analysis is an additional feature on our platform, so that comes with what you already have, so rather than walking in and saying, "Buy my suite of products, this will all" "solve all your problems," as we've done for the past, or as other vendors have done for the past 10, 20 years, and it's never worked. So you why not add things that you already have so you're allowed to amortize your assets, build your best of breed security, and do it within a multi-vendor environment, but also, do it with your infrastructure. >> Right, so I want to shift gears a little bit. Doing some research before you got on, you've always been technical lead. You've been doing technical lead roles. You had a whole bunch of them, and we don't have internet, unfortunately, here, so I can't read them off. >> Oliver: That's fine. >> But now, you've switched over. You've put the marketing hat on. I'm just curious the different, softer, squishy challenge of trying to take the talent that you have, the technical definitions that you have, the detailed compute and stuff you're doing around things like you just described, and now, putting the marketing hat, and trying to get that message out to the market, help people understand what you're trying to do, and break through, quite frankly, some crazy noise that we're sitting here surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands of vendors. >> I think that's really the key, and yes, I've been technical leads. I've run architecture teams. I've run development teams, and really, from a marketing perspective, it's to ensure that we're delivering a message that is, that the market will consume that is actually based in reality. I think a lot of times you see a lot of products that are put together with duct tape, baling twine, et cetera, but then, also have a great Powerpoint that makes it look good, but from a go to market perspective, from whether it's your sellers, meaning the sellers that work for Juniper, whether it's our partners, whether it's our customers, they have to believe in what's out there, and if it's tried and true, and we understand it from an engineering perspective, and we can say it's not a marketing texture, it's a strategy. >> Right. >> That really makes a difference, and we're really seeing that if you look at our year over year growth in security, if you look at what analysts are saying, if you look at what testing houses are saying about our product, that Juniper's back, and that's why I'm in this spot. >> And it really begs to have a deeper relationship with the customer, that you're not selling them a one-off market texture slide. You're not having a quick point solution that's suddenly put together, but really, have this trusted, ongoing relationship that's going to evolve over time. The products are going to evolve over time because the threats are evolving over time, right? >> Absolutely, and to help them get more out of what they already have, and from a go to market perspective, our partners have an addressful market that's naturally through the install base that we have, we're able to provide additional value and services to those customers that may want to lean on a partner to actually build some of these solutions for them. >> All right, well, Oliver, well thanks for stopping by. I'm glad I'm not too late on the encrypted analysis game, so just a couple of days. >> Absolutely. >> Thanks for stopping by. Best to you, and good luck with 2020, the year we'll know everything. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me. >> All right, he's Oliver, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at RSA 2020 here in Moscone. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (gentle electronic music)

>> Live from Miami Beach, Florida, it's theCUBE covering VeeamON 2019 brought to you by Veeam! >> Welcome back to Miami, everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante. We're here at the Fontainebleau Hotel. VeeamON day one of two-day coverage of the Veeam conference, very swaggy hotel. Dave Russell is here. He's the Vice President of NFI Strategy at Veeam. David, good to see you again. >> Good to see you. >> Thanks so much for coming onto theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having me again. >> You're very welcome. So let's see, you're well over, let's see, a year out, just about a year out of Gartner. Right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> And so okay you've been injected with the Kool-Aid fully, I presume, right? >> There you go, in the green, yes. >> But we're still going to talk a little bit about the magic water, but before we get into that, talk about your first year here. >> Yeah. >> Your impressions. Do they meet, exceed your expectations? >> It exceeded my expectations, but I can honestly say I'm not doing what I thought I was going to be doing here, but it actually turned out to be better. The other thing I will honestly tell you is I'm now on Pacific Coast time at the moment. Arizona, we're too unsophisticated for Daylights Saving, right so I'm either Mountain or Pacific but I'm Pacific now. But by 10 a.m. my time, I pretty much what I thought I was going to do that day is out the window and I'm doing something else and it's fun though. I mean now especially with the investment that we had earlier in the year and the cash reserves we ended last year with, looking at a lot of partnership capabilities, looking at ecosystem activities, certainly involved with customer activity. We're redoing our marketing and how we're focusing our go-to-market so it's a whole variety of things that sort of change hourly. >> So on the, I think we just talked about the M&A side. You've always been a dot connector in your, right? Because you talk to all the vendors, you talk to all the customers and you could see the picture. You have a huge observation space so part of your job on strategy is to try to what? Figure out where the gaps are. >> Yeah. >> And then drive strategy around do we build, do we buy? Maybe you can talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah and it really does net down to what you said. It's a build/buy decision. It's an acceleration to market kind of decision and then the hard part is what are you willing to trade off and of course the real answer is as little as humanly possible. But you have to decide, just because you can do it, just 'cause you have the money doesn't necessarily mean you should pull the trigger. So if anything, it's curious because people like myself and a couple of my colleagues, we almost are more discerning. So we look at, okay, the technology, is it really viable? Do our due diligence, right? But then we also look at well, does this fit culturally? Is the integration point really there? Is the customer value really going to be significantly improved and if you cannot answer that very favorably, then keep the money. >> So you worked at IBM for a number of years, you worked at Gartner for a number of years. Now you're back working for a vendor. >> Yeah. >> Compare and contrast those roles. I mean Gartner, you do a lot of writing, you do a lot of traveling, you talk to a zillion people. I'm sure you talk to a lot of people here too, but you're coming at it from a very biased perspective whereas Gartner of course you're unbiased. You're serving the end customer. So talk about the difference in those two roles. >> So I approach it a little uniquely in that I'm biased. I mean I'm paid by a vendor, right? And so there's a certain inherent bias in there, but I go into a customer conversation and say "Maybe you shouldn't be using Veeam for certain things." So I'll give you an example. We have Unix capabilities with Solaris AIX. There are other vendors that do that even better than we do. They have rich application integration. If someone says that's my number one problem, honestly we're not your best choice. Now the reality is most of the world is moving towards more physical and virtual Windows and Linux. So I'll come in, say, a large enterprise and I'll say, "Okay, if you're like most shops," and I'll always undersell it. "Like probably 85% of your workload "is physical virtual Windows Linux." and they always interrupt me and go, "No, no, no, it's 92%." Like, "Okay, well we can help with that 92%." >> Yeah, yeah. >> The other 7%, I'm honestly going to tell you, we're not best of breed. >> Yeah that's a safe balance view that the AIX Solaris piece. >> Series. (Dave laughs) There's certain things. >> Yeah. >> We want to stick to our swim lane. We think it's a pretty wide lane, but there's no reason to come out of it. >> So your role as strategy, talk a little bit about how you're turning that strategy into action and specifics at Veeam. >> Yeah a big part of it has to do with cloud. >> I know that's the word that we've been talking about for a long, long time. So there's the aspirational aspect of Cloud and the operational. The aspirational is I want to be able to move in and out. I want mobility, I want the ability to exit. The operational is I want to be able to do this efficiently, meaning I want to be able to either send data to the cloud, my on-prem backup or I want to be able to protect SAAS-based workloads or infrastructure as a service workload so cloud-native workloads and then over time, I might want to be able to leverage that for something other than availability. So how can you rapidly make the data and only the portion of data that I need available to me when I need it? >> I was taking some notes during the key notes and I was just doing like a little, not really a tag cloud, but I was trying to identify as I heard them and grabbed them, the attributes of cloud data protection. I want to throw some out to you. You tell me. We'll play kind of word association, I guess. So I have fast recovery, API-based, open, simple, transparent, data-oriented, automated, cloud pricing, federated to accomodate the edge. Are these some of the attributes that we should associate with cloud data protection, maybe some of the things that I'm missing. How do you look at the attributes of a company and its products providing cloud data protection? >> Yeah so a big part of it, I actually like the phrase hybrid cloud even better than people say multi-cloud. The reason I like that is because hybrid presumes that you can have on premises as well. So like if it was the Dave and Dave company tomorrow, we'd probably be born in the cloud. Everything would be software as a service. We'd get some public cloud space. Now if we'd been in business for 20 years, we've got investments that we've made and we don't want to get rid of that any sooner than we have to. So hybrid cloud I like, but I think you nailed it in that what do every one of those attributes have in common? It's trying to get your most precious resource to you in a way that you want to consume it with as least amount of friction as possible. We want to reduce the aggravation associated with being able to access that rapidly. >> When you think about the customer conversations that you've had at Veeam and even going back to your Gartner days, I've always felt this notion of not hybrid, I see hybrid and multi-cloud as different. I've always looked at multi-cloud as multi-vendor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah I've got line of business, I've got shadow IT, I've got different IT projects and I've got multiple clouds and it's just, to me it was always less of a strategy than sort of this is where we are and now people need to put together a hybrid strategy. So IT's been asked to come clean up this mess as it always is. What's your take on the hybrid landscape and how we got here but more specifically, customer strategies when you consult with your customers? >> Yeah you're right that there's a lot of departmental buying, there's a lot of, in some cases, it's best of breed so I'm very willing to go look at multiple providers because I didn't sign up to go deploy the third best solution. Everyone wants what they think will be the most appropriate tool for them and rightfully so. So I think that's how we got, to your point, we didn't have a strategy that said I want 10 vendors. We arrived at an implementation choice that resulted in 10 vendors being deployed and then to your point further, then we had to layer on something on top of that. That's really where we come in and simple as it sounds, we really want to promote choice, choice of infrastructure, choice of cloud, choice of hypervisor, choice of operating system. >> So great discussion vector is the best of breed versus sort of integration. >> Yeah. >> And my question is that's been a decades-long. >> Yeah. >> Sort of trade-off that people have made. You see it in the software business, the hardware business and all through the industry. Is the API economy changing that. Can you be both, I mean Veeam, let's agree. Veeam is a best-of-breed provider. While your portfolio's growing, you're a billion-dollar company, you take a company like Dell who's got this ridiculously large portfolio. They can come into a customer and say well even with services or at IBM, we can wrap the big blue blanket around you and integrate everything. With the API economy, does that change the game on that argument of best of breed versus integration and convenience? >> It's a nuanced answer. The answer is a little yes and a little no. >> It depends, right? >> Let me decompose that because that's a cop-out, but the "it depends" aspect is really, APIs are wonderful to create an ecosystem and other integration points. If that's about offering your expandability to do something, that's a positive. If that really means that well because I can't deliver what you need, you got to go and write it yourself, that is a negative. So if the API is leveraging something for even greater value but beyond what the tools are originally designed to do, I think that's net positive, but if you have to exploit the API to just to get the product to work, why did I buy your product when I have to go hire someone to write code to work on your product? That's, you don't want that business. >> Okay so the last Gartner Magic Quadrant that came out was one that you sort of spearheaded back in 2017. It was like this perfect storm of backup analysts leaving Gartner and so there's been a little bit of delay in terms of the new one coming out which is coming our shortly as I understand it, but one of the observations that you can make if you look at the 2016-2017 Gartner Magic Quadrant is that Veeam moved from lower right to upper right which is rare. Can you explain that a little bit? You were saying that it usually goes in a different pattern. Elucidate, please. >> Yeah. Yeah so the magic in the Magic Quadrant is if you could actually jump from one quadrant to straight to leaders and that would be a very atypical progression. Usually it's a backwards Z. You come into the lower left, probably get over to the lower right, fall back, but go up to the upper left and then maybe you get to leaders in the upper right. The magic part in Veeam, the thing that they were able to do is go from visionary lower right to leader upper right. >> Okay and why do you think they were able to do that? I mean there are numerous attributes, but presumably 350,000 I think is the number of customers helped and so you've got a lot of references and proof points, the technology itself, but it's rare. Why do you think Veeam has been able to succeed in that regard? >> I think it's because Veeam has been good about getting answers to the most pressing problems. Again Veeam doesn't do everything. It doesn't support every single operating system, but the vast majority of the concentration of where customer issues are and where customer environments are getting deployed at, we can address very well and actually this weekend, I got here Friday night. So all day Saturday, all day Sunday and yesterday 'til 5 p.m. I took our SE training and so I've deployed Veeam, worked with active directories, all kinds of things for 72 hours basically and it was really that easy to use. In fact, my most difficult thing is I stayed in class until 6:30 at night because I'd never done active directory. I've never been an exchange admin before so I had to kind of come up to speed on those tools a little bit, but once I got that, the product was incredibly powerful, but also very intuitive. So you still have a little bit of that independent analyst DNA in you so I'm going to ask you to try to put that independent hat on. When you think about Veeam's traditional base of SMB, they're very successful there, obviously superglued itself to the virtualization trend. The last couple of years, Veeam has tried to move up-market, develop some relationships with some large players and has had some success there. Is the product well-suited for that larger enterprise and where do you see that going in terms of the up-market progression? >> Yeah so in theory, that's what I'm here to drive, the enterprise word is in my title, but in reality I focus more broadly than that. But if I just think about enterprise, I ran the numbers last week and company inception to date, we've actually derived over $2 billion of software-only revenue from the enterprise market and that's been accelerating. Now in 2017-18 and the first quarter of this year, almost $1 billion. So we're moving and we're moving fast. We had our sales kick off like most companies do. January, go to sales kick off and Ratmir says, "Hey don't chase just the big deals, the $2 million deals. "We've never sold a $2 million "without having a $200,000 deal first." The very next week, we got a $2 million deal on the first paper so he shot low. He should've said five million, but the interesting thing about Veeam and to answer your question, I think we resonate with the kind of challenges a large enterprise has. We allow them to move at their own scale if they want to move in a very large fashion, they can with Veeam. I would honestly tell them move as appropriate for you. As assets age, as you're willing to take on the change in an environment, do so, but I think Veeam is interesting. It's the same piece of software that I installed on my laptop this weekend that can also go to a Fortune 100 company. The same piece of software that manages 50,000 agents, we have at one shop, 50,000 Windows agents. We can do that with same code base and the only thing that's different is we just horizontally scale out how we deploy the capacity and then how we deploy the mover agents. >> I tweeted out this morning, Ratmir was standing in front of a chart with all these features and over the time and that's been part of the hallmark of Veeam is not checkbox features but real substantive features and you've had a consistent progression. Even Ratmir said, we don't have a big long-term roadmap that we share with our customers even internally. Yeah we have a direction and a vision, but very focused, almost like a bit of an Agile development methodology but the point is that, and you see that some companies are really good at this, some companies, not so good at this, but just consistently delivering features that are in-demand, that customers want, listening to their customers and just nailing it and that seems to be the hallmark of Veeam and as they say, some companies just don't have that in their DNA. Your thoughts on that? >> Yeah I think what it really comes down to is at the end of the day, every developer thinks like a customer and they do that because they spend a lot of time on our Veeam forums and I'll be honest, when I was a mainframe backup developer, I didn't talk to that many customers. I was just writing code and I didn't know how people were actually putting the product to use in production. I didn't always know what feature might be most helpful for them. >> You were guessing. >> I was trying to think of the art of the possible, hopefully an educated guess, but I was really just trying to say what might be good, what might be of resonance versus actually having someone goes on a forum and says Veeam, what I would like you to do is X. That's one of the reasons why we do have, to your point, we don't have a 10-year roadmap where we say this feature is coming in 12 months, this feature is coming in 24 months. It's fluid and in some cases, we actually moved up delivering our physical agent management by a year because we started selling more and more of those and people said I need that feature functionality faster. We're willing to trade-off some of our other feature functionality. So if we can be, as long as we can continue to respond to the market, I think we're well-positioned. >> How does a capability like that surface itself? Obviously by talking to customers, but how does it get into the development pipeline so quickly? >> Yeah well in some cases, we've got a huge amount of not just, our part of R&D. It's the research, it's experimentation, it's incubation of new things. So when we find that sweet intersection point, then we can quickly operationalize that. In other cases, we just have to be nimble. We have to react fast. >> Is it a command and control culture though where somebody says okay this is what we're doing or is it more sort of the team gets together and says oh this really makes sense based on what the customers are telling us, let's go. How does that decision get made? >> Yeah well ultimately it is a command and control in the sense that our co-founder, one of our co-founders runs sales and marketing. Our other co-founders runs R&D and they ultimately get sign-off on their respective areas, but it is collaborative in the sense of we do bring forward, here's what we see in market, here's what see in our customer forums. Here's what our ecosystem of partners are telling us, here's our view of the top five things we ought to go do. >> I was struck by the other slide that Ratmir had. It was the $15 billion slide and it was probably, backup and recover was maybe I don't know seven out of the 15 if I remember, but there were all these other segments. It was sort of analytics and disaster recovery and data management, all new pockets of opportunity. $15 billion today, obviously growing with especially the cloud. How do you see that landscape and how does that affect the way you look at strategy? >> Yeah so I actually put that bubble chart together. >> Oh, I like it. >> The rationale between the bubbles, we have core, we put backup in the middle because that's what we do but also that's how we ingest data and now we can do other things around it. So the reason for those bubbles and they were of varying sizes and the bubbles were sort of in and out of to varying degrees the main backup bubble according to how much intersection we thought as a company we could have with that. Where we thought we could add value, where we thought there was an ecosystem potential. So for example, analytics. We're not going to become the next best analytics company tomorrow, not even years from now. We could partner and we can provide data and we get better access to data to be able to do that. So we'd want to facilitate that. In other cases, maybe we really do want to go own and acquire. >> Well and so to your earlier comments there, I didn't use the term, the phrase land and expand, but that's clearly what you guys are doing starting with the $200,000 sale and growing it to a $2 million sale. So those bubbles are potentially cohort sales. >> Yes. >> That you can sell sort of like bananas in bunches I like to say, right? >> Yeah. And part of that is who do you sell that to. And so if you're able to go and address some of those ancillary bubbles or markets, now you've got a different entree point into the organization. If you're already involved with an organization, now you can offer more value because you can get more out of your data that you've already protected. So it opens up new conversations for us to have. It opens up entirely new buying centers for us too. >> Well how is the role of whom you sell to changing? I mean it was backup admin historically, right or maybe a Veeamware admin. Veeam admin. How is that changing? >> So greatest example I would tell you are events. So we acquired a company last January or a year ago January called N2W Software. So they're predominantly at Amazon re:Invent conferences. You go to Amazon re:Invent and no one's heard of Veeam and if anyone's heard of either of the two companies, it's definitely N2WS and someone's seen it in the marketplace. That demographic tends to be totally different from the demographic if you go to the on-premises data center type of conference where they have heard of Veeam and it's a very different sort of mindset. To your point, they grew up in a very different landscape. Now instead of someone who's well-steeped in server storage and networking and maybe majored in one, possibly two of those things, now you've got a generalist where he or she is probably in their 20s, has a very different point of view of what it should take to get something working and has a very different view of how they want to be sold to, how you can go and reach them. >> So at the cloud show, there might be a development persona. >> Yes. >> That you're selling to. Obviously VMWare, VMWorld, we know what that is. It's IT guys, right, is the predominant and how do you see cloud changing that? Is it cloud architects or sort of cloud leaders? CTOs increasingly? Data Protection becomes more and more important to digital business. So how are you seeing that role change due to cloud? >> So right now we have to basically have more touchpoints. Our typical legacy fan of our customer, our customer base, our product's sweet spot still remains and it's in some cases will pull us into the cloud. In other cases, we have to go talk to someone that's entirely different. But again, that's more of an administrative view. But to your point, going up the stack now, if you go to the not even Vice President of Infrastructure, you go to the CIO, he or she says, "I am tired of thinking about boxes. "I am tired of thinking about where this resides. "I want to think business outcome." So for us that's actually a great conversation because it all comes back to data. That's what we're in the business of doing. We capture, protect and move data. >> So that brings it back to strategy. We got to run, but summarize in your words, just sort of the strategy of Veeam and where you see this whole thing going. >> Yeah I will simplistically say it's more of the same. We want to continue to offer what we think is a best of breed solution for on-prem and increasingly cloud availability, but also we want to offer real customer value in terms of now being able to leverage that data, get more value out of that whether that's DevOps, running analytics against that, security test patch, whatever it may be, we want to be able to give you just the data you need, so have granularity, and offer speed and ease of use to do that. >> So as data becomes more and more important, you're seeing companies go beyond backup, trying to get more out of there, their backup, moving to data protection, data management, not just an insurance policy anymore. Dave Russell, thanks very much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thank you so much. >> You're welcome. All right, keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with Peter Burris as my cohost. We're at VeeamON Live from Miami. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundations and the cubes ecosystem partners well everyone welcome back to our exclusive coverage from the cube here in Austin Texas we're live on the floor at cloud native con and cube con cubic on like kubernetes gone not the cube con us but cute con we're Michele norelli who's the senior software engineer at Microsoft also the co-chair with Kelsey Heights our great event record-setting attendance I'm John ferry your host with stew minimun Michele welcome to the cube thank you so much for having me so people don't know about if they might have watch the street if you had a stream you're on stage keynoting and managing the whole program here congratulations more attendees here at this event than all the other cube cause of cloud native combined shows the growth and interest in a new way to develop new way to engage with other developers and create value yeah kubernetes has been the heart of it explain cloud native con and cube con what's the difference because I love cloud native but what's this Cooper Denny's thing I love that too yeah was it related a intertwine Wayne take him into his plane there's a there's a really big kubernetes audience and community and they need time to engage and just like work with each other and learn from each other and that's where coop Connie came from soku-kun with the original conference and the first one was a November in Seattle in 2016 and I was actually at that wine was a few hundred people and it was just so small people were actually asking like what is a pod what is kubernetes which are fine questions asked today as well but it was everyone was asking this question nobody was past that point and then you know kubernetes was donated to the CNCs and there were also these other cloud native projects that came about in the space and so we wanted a conference that encompasses both all of the cloud native projects as well as serbs the kubernetes community as well so that's where both of them came from some of the other cloud native projects have their own conferences like Prometheus has prom time and that's been growing as well I think the last one was 200 people up from 70 the last so I gotta ask you because we even cover us we were there at the cube con I was actually having drinks with Luke Tucker at JJ we're like hey we should do this Cuban Eddie's thing and bolted onto the Linux Foundation so you're president creates with the whole team it's been fun to watch Wow yeah but it's the tale of two stories in the community in the industry companies that got funded and we're building open-source and our participants who are building projects out and then a new onboarding of new developers coming into the community a lot of first-timers here you're seeing a visibility into the success of cloud yeah and they're Rieger engaged so you got a lot of folks who have invested into the community and new entrants a migration into the community yeah what does that dynamic mean to the CN CF how is that impacting how you structure in the programming and what are some of the insiders talking about what it is what's the reality yeah I think a lot of it has to do with you know this is a really positive community and there are just like so many people working together and collaborating not just because they I mean it looks like nice to be in a positive community right but you kind of have to like these problems are really hard and it's good to learn from different organizations that have like come across these projects or problems starting in the in the space before and they'll come and collaborate I think some of the things that we've been talking about inside the community is how to actually how to onboard people so the kubernetes community is starting up a new mentorship program to help people that are new to the community start learning how to review code and then PR code and and be productive members in the community and whatever they whatever area they want miss Michelle want to hear about kind of some of the breadth and depth of the community here yeah you know we went there's so many announcements there's a bunch of wando's yeah it's a brand new project I think what it was four projects a year ago and it's now 14 you know right how does somebody's supposed to get their arms around it should they be beat me about that you know where should somebody start you know what do you recommend yeah start with the that's a great question by the way I think that people should start with with a solution to a problem they already have so just know that people have run into these problems before and you should just go into the thing that you know about first and then if that leads you to a different problem and there's a solution that the CNCs you know has already come across then you can go into and dive into the other palms for example I am really interested in kubernetes and have been in that space but I think tracing is really interesting too and I want to start learning how to incorporate that into my workflow as well so show you you're also one of the diversity chairs yeah for the event you talk about kind of a diverse global nature of this community yeah we are spread across all time zone so I actually want to share an experience I have as a sake lead in kubernetes so at first I really wanted to serve all of the time zones and so we have these weekly sick meetings at 9:30 a.m. Pacific and I was like no maybe we should have like alternate meetings like alternate weekly meetings for other time zones but after talking to those the people in the other time sounds like they're very far off actually like China Asia Pacific I realize that they're actually more interested in reading notes and watching videos which is something I didn't actually know you know it's it's you think like oh you have to serve every community in the same way but what I've learned and face to face yeah base to base exactly and that's not actually how that's not how actually everybody wants to interact and so that's been an interesting thing I've learned from the diverse nature and this in the space let's see a challenges I mean we've been talking we're just that reinvent last week at Amazon obviously the number of services that they're rolling out is pretty strong there's a leader in the cloud but as multi cloud becomes the choice for most most enterprises and businesses the service requirements the baseline is got to be established seeing your community rolling out a lot of great new services but storage old storage is transferring to machine learning in AI and you got I Oh tea right around the corner new new kinds of applications yeah okay it's changing the game on the old card storage and security obviously two important areas you got to store the data data is that the card of the value proposition and then security security how are you guys dealing with that those challenges those political grounds that people are have a lot of making a lot of money in an old storage you mean ship a storage drive and here's an architecture those are being disrupted yeah I think they I mean they'll continue to be disrupted I think people are just going to bring in new and new more new and new use cases and then people will come and meet them meet those customers where they are and people just have to change I guess get used to it yeah shifter die yeah I think that some that that we are getting to that point but I can't only time will tell we'll see what are something exciting things that you see from the new developers I just recognize some friends here that I've haven't that dark wondering the community are new and they're kind of like licking their chops like wow what an excitement I could feel value and I could have a distribution I got a community and I can make money and then Dan said you know project products profits you put the product profit motive right on the table but he's clear at the same not pay to play it's okay to have profits if you have a good product for me project I buy that but the new developers like that because as an end scoreboard what are you guys doing with that new community what survived there around those kinds of opportunities you guys creating any programs for them or yeah I think just to just they can get involved you know I think knowledge is power perspective is power also so being involved helps give you a perspective to see where those gaps are and then come up with those services that are profitable or those tools that are profitable and I think this space can be very lucrative based on the number of people he sponsors I think he said he said the show was wondering if you can comment when you're building the schedule how do you balance you know all those platinum sponsors versus you know some of the you know practitioner companies that are also getting involved how do you there are there are different levels of sponsorship right like you mentioned the events team has a sponsorship section or sponsorship team and they handle most of placing sponsors and all of that and so they'll get whatever level they want but actually Kelsey and I do a lot of research and see like what's happening in the community what's interesting what's new and and we'll find time to highlight that as well which one is research what's your role in Microsoft share with the audience what are you working on what's your day-to-day job is it just foundation work are you doing coding what do you coding what's your fav is the VI MX what do you prefer yes my work is 30% community and 70% engineering I really love engineering but I also really love the community and just getting these opportunities to give back you know build skills as well learning how to speak in front of people as well these are both valuable skills to learn and it gives me an opportunity to just give back what I've learned so I appreciate those but I mostly work on developer tools that are open source that help people use containers and kubernetes a little more easily so I work on projects like Helms drafts and Brigade and these are just like things that we've seen the pain points that we've experienced and we want to kind of share our solutions with them so draft is the one I've been working on a lot have you heard of drops okay let me do the two second draft is a tool for application developers to build containerized apps without really understanding or having to understand all of what is kubernetes and containers so that's my favorite space to know you know one of the things we look at coming in here is there's that balance between there's complexity but there's flexibility you know I've heard Kelsey talking about our on when I talk to customer they're like oh I love kubernetes because I take vault and I take envoy and I take all these different things that put together and it does what I want but a lot of people are daunted and they say oh I want to I want to just go to Microsoft Azure and they'll take care of that so how do you look at that and what is the balance that we should be looking for as an industry yeah we've been emphasizing in the community a lot on plug ability across contracts it's like a theme that I think almost every project hurts and a word that you'll hear a lot I'm sure you already have heard a lot and I think that's because you can't meet everyone's needs so you build this modular component that does one thing very well and then you learn how to extend it and or you give people the ability to extend it and so that's really great for scaling a project I I do really appreciate the clouds coming out all of them with their own managed services because it's hard to operate and understand all of these things it's it takes a lot of depth in knowledge context and just prior experience and so I think that'll just make it a lot easier for people to onboard onto these technologies I was going to ask you I was going to ask so you brought up fug ability we saw you know Netflix on stage was his phenomenal of the culture yeah dynamic I think that the Schumer important conversation you know something we've been talking about silage is a real part of what we're seeing tech being a part of but the the things that popped out at me in the keynote were service mesh and pluggable architecture so I want to get your thoughts for the folks that aren't there is that in the trenches and inside the ropes what is a pluggable architecture and what is a service mesh these days because you got lyft and uber and all these great companies who have built hyper scale and large-scale systems in open source and now our big tech success stories donating these kinds of approaches pluggable architectures and service man talk a minute to explain so pluggable architectures this is why you have one layer of your stuff there's a piece of software that does something does one thing very well but you know every I like to say that every company is a snowflake and that's okay and so you may have some workflow or need that is specific to your company and so we shouldn't limit you to just what we think is the right solution to a problem we should allow you to extend or extend these pieces of software with modular components or just extensible components that that work for you does that make a little more sense yeah I work on helm and we also have a pluggable architecture because we were just getting so many requests from the community and it didn't make sense to put everything in the core code based if we did if we accepted one thing it would really just interrupt somebody else's workflow so that that's helped us a lot in in my personal experience I really like plug water it's actually that means you can go build a really kick butt app yeah nail it down to your specifications but decoupler from a core or avoiding kind the old spaghetti code mindset but kind of creating a model where it can be leveraged yeah plugin we all know plugins are but right so so that someone else could take advantage of it exactly yeah a service mesh that's evolved yeah heard a lot of that what is that yeah it's um so developers this is actually the lift story is really interesting to me so at lyft developers were really uneasy about moving from the monolith to the micro-services architecture just because they didn't early understand the network component and we're like network reliability would not be so reliable would fail and time service meshes have allowed engineers at lyft to understand where their failures happen and in terms like of a network standpoint and so you're basically abstracting with network layer and allowing more transparency into it this is like very useful for when you have lots of Micra services and you want this kind of reliability and stability awesome so one point 9s coming Spence support Windows that's what key and now a congratulations just go to the next level I mean growth talk about the growth because it's fun for us to watch you know kind of a small group core young community less than three years old really to kubernetes kind of had some traction but it really is going to be commoditized and that's not a bad thing so how do you what's your take on this what's the vibe what's that what's the current feeling inside the community right now excited pinching ourselves no I think everybody's in awe everybody is in awe and we're just like we want to make this the best experience possible in terms of an open source experience you know we want to welcome people to the community we want to serve the people's needs and we just we just want to do a good job because this is really fun and I think the people working on these problems are having a lot of fun with with seeing this kind of growth and support it's been great certainly for US president creation president and creation of this whole movement it's been fun to watch a document final question what should people expect this week what is the show going to hopefully do what's your prediction what's your purpose here what should people expect this week and the folks that didn't make it what do they miss okay there are so many things happening it's insane you're going to get a little bit of everything there's lots of different tracks lots of diverse content I think I'm when I go to conferences in my personal experience I really love technical salons those are really great because you can get your hands dirty and you can get questions answered by the people who created the project that's an experience that is is really powerful for me I went to the first open tracing salon and that's where I kind of got my hands dirty with tracing and been siegelman who's doing the keynote today this afternoon was the person who was teaching me how to like do this stuff so yeah it was awesome like some marketing fluff no it's not and it's just like it's it's real experienced very expert like experts you know in the in the space teaching you these things so that that definitely can't be replicated I think the cig sessions will be really cool there's a big focus on not just learning stuff but also collaborating and and just talking about things before they get documented so that's a really good experience here it's an action-packed schedule I tweeted that it feels like I'm you know when Burning Man had like a hundred people announced this big thing I think this is the beginning of a amazing industry people are cool they're helpful they're getting you're getting involved answering questions open-book here yeah at cloud native Punk you've got thanks Michele Farrelly been coming on co-chair senior engineer at Microsoft great to have her on the cube great keynote great color great fun exciting times here at cloud native con I'm John furry the founders look at angle media with too many men my co-hosts more live coverage after the short break

>> Hi, I'm Peter Buris of Wikibon, and this week, we're going to be running a very special teleconference on true private cloud. The Technology Foundation for Enterprise Cloud Strategies. We're going to conduct the teleconference on Thursday, the 12th of October, at 2 p.m. Eastern Daylight, and 11 a.m. Pacific Daylight. What we're going to do is reveal some new research that we've been doing that supports this whole notion that increasingly, the marketplace is going to adopt what we call true private cloud technologies. These are technologies that are intended to provide the cloud experience wherever the data demands, including on presence, including at the edge, and will be easily integratable with the public cloud. Now, when we talk about new research, we're not just talking about the numbers that we've been put forward over the last couple of years. We're actually talking about new and interesting things. So, for example, one of the key things we're going to look at is what's going on in the world of backup and restore. How are we going to handle this need to manage large amounts of data. Dave Vellante, tell us a little about that. >> Dave: Yeah, so one of the things most I'm excited about, Peter, is working with our community, trying to help them understand how this cloud model is evolving, in SAS, obviously driven by applications, public infrastructure is a service in what we call true private cloud, bringing the cloud model to your data on prem, and one of the areas we're looking at is new data protection models. How do you protect data across multiclouds? Are there ways to get more leverage out of that data beyond just insurance and backup? Are there ways to help with governance and data analytics and other dealings with security threats? We see data protection as one of these key binding technologies that are going to bring together cross cloud disciplines. >> When we think about cross cloud disciplines, you always end up thinking about what are developers going to do, and Stu, we've been pretty hard at work at thinking about the impact of hybrid cloud, and some of the new models of development as we go to a more distributed, more multi-ownership orientation of some of these assets. Any quick observations on what we're going to see next week? >> Stu: Yeah, absolutely, Peter. The whole premise that we've talked about with true private cloud is people love the operating model of the public cloud, and nobody more than developers. The developers have been sitting up, building shipping code in the public cloud, so how can I get that same experience really wherever I'm going to live? So whether that be my data center, the public cloud, or even going to edge configurations now, all the kind of latest and greatest stuff like containers and Kubernetes and serverless is not going to all live in one place, so how does this span this hybrid multicloud world? It's super important to focus always on that application and that developer experience because without that, you're going to fail with really moving to this modern type of architecture. >> Now, as we think about the need for data protection, we think about the need for application development creating value out of this that has significant impacts ultimately on IT operations management. We're also going to be spending some time talking about how new technologies are being bought into the whole IT operations management sphere, machine learning, deep learning, cognitive, et cetera, to dramatically improve the productivity of managing all of these new more complex applications and distributive resources. So, that's going to be a crucial feature of what we'll be talking about at the teleconference, but David Floyer, we're also going to be talking about the impact of this trend on future systems design. We call it unigrid. What are we going to tell people? >> Well, one of the most exciting things is the new technologies that are coming in to the architecture, fundamental architecture of systems. Essentially, storage and networking are combining together to allow an any to any connection between lots and lots of nodes, not just the 16 or 32, up to thousands of nodes, to be able to access that data from any node, and do it at very, very low latencies, indeed. And the exciting thing that this is about is that this is the holy grail of what systems have been trying to do for many, many years. What the want to do is combine systems of record, which are database-heavy type applications, with systems of intelligence, AI systems, other systems of that sort, which can come in and add additional value. What is happening in this architecture is that you can get hundreds or thousands of times more data per unit of work, per transaction or whatever, and this is really, really exciting because we can, for the first time, do real time analytics at the same time, and into the same systems of the current systems, of systems of record. >> As we're writing transactions. >> David: As we're writing transactions. >> So this is unigrid. We think it's going to be a major feature of the industry, and have an enormous impact ultimately on how we think about designing this next wave of applications. All right. So, on Thursday, October 12th, special Wikibon teleconference. The Technology Foundation for Enterprise Hybrid Cloud Strategies. Two o'clock Eastern. 11 o'clock Pacific. The key Wikibon team coming together to talk about from the business objectives through software, data protection, systems management, and all the way out to future systems designs. Please join us. We hope to see you there.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's the CUBE covering Spark Summit 2017, brought to by Databricks. (energetic music plays) >> And what an exciting day we've had here at the CUBE. We've been at Spark Summit 2017, talking to partners, to customers, to founders, technologists, data scientists. It's been a load of information, right? >> Yeah, an overload of information. >> Well, George, you've been here in the studio with me talking with a lot of the guests. I'm going to ask you to maybe recap some of the top things you've heard today for our guests. >> Okay so, well, Databricks laid down, sort of, three themes that they wanted folks to take away. Deep learning, Structured Streaming, and serverless. Now, deep learning is not entirely new to Spark. But they've dramatically improved their support for it. I think, going beyond the frameworks that were written specifically for Spark, like Deeplearning4j and BigDL by Intel And now like TensorFlow, which is the opensource framework from Google, has gotten much better support. Structured Streaming, it was not clear how much more news we were going to get, because it's been talked about for 18 months. And they really, really surprised a lot of people, including me, where they took, essentially, the processing time for an event or a small batch of events down to 1 millisecond. Whereas, before, it was in the hundreds if not higher. And that changes the type of apps you can build. And also, the Databricks guys had coined the term continuous apps, which means they operate on a never-ending stream of data, which is different from what we've had in the past where it's batch or with a user interface, request-response. So they definitely turned up the volume on what they can do with continuous apps. And serverless, they'll talk about more tomorrow. And Jim, I think, is going to weigh in. But it, basically, greatly simplifies the ability to run this infrastructure, because you don't think of it as a cluster of resources. You just know that it's sort of out there, and you ask requests of it, and it figures out how to fulfill it. I will say, the other big surprise for me was when we have Matei, who's the creator of Spark and the chief technologist at Databricks, come on the show and say, when we asked him about how Spark was going to deal with, essentially, more advanced storage of data so that you could update things, so that you could get queries back, so that you could do analytics, and not just of stuff that's stored in Spark but stuff that Spark stores essentially below it. And he said, "You know, Databricks, you can expect to see come out with or partner with a database to do these advanced scenarios." And I got the distinct impression, and after listen to the tape again, that he was talking about for Apache Spark, which is separate from Databricks, that they would do some sort of key-value store. So in other words, when you look at competitors or quasi-competitors like Confluent Kafka or a data artist in Flink, they don't, they're not perfect competitors. They overlap some. Now Spark is pushing its way more into overlapping with some of those solutions. >> Alright. Well, Jim Kobielus. And thank you for that, George. You've been mingling with the masses today. (laughs) And you've been here all day as well. >> Educated masses, yeah, (David laughs) who are really engaged in this stuff, yes. >> Well, great, maybe give us some of your top takeaways after all the conversations you've had today. >> They're not all that dissimilar from George's. What Databricks, Databricks of course being the center, the developer, the primary committer in the Spark opensource community. They've done a number of very important things in terms of the announcements today at this event that push Spark, the Spark ecosystem, where it needs to go to expand the range of capabilities and their deployability into production environments. I feel the deep-learning side, announcement in terms of the deep-learning pipeline API very, very important. Now, as George indicated, Spark has been used in a fair number of deep-learning development environments. But not as a modeling tool so much as a training tool, a tool for In Memory distributed training of deep-learning models that we developed in TensorFlow, in Caffe, and other frameworks. Now this announcement is essentially bringing support for deep learning directly into the Spark modeling pipeline, the machine-learning modeling pipeline, being able to call out to deep learning, you know, TensorFlow and so forth, from within MLlib. That's very important. That means that Spark developers, of which there are many, far more than there are TensorFlow developers, will now have an easy pass to bring more deep learning into their projects. That's critically important to democratize deep learning. I hope, and from what I've seen what Databricks has indicated, that they have support currently in API reaching out to both TensorFlow and Keras, that they have plans to bring in API support for access to other leading DL toolkits such as Caffe, Caffe 2, which is Facebook-developed, such as MXNet, which is Amazon-developed, and so forth. That's very encouraging. Structured Streaming is very important in terms of what they announced, which is an API to enable access to faster, or higher-throughput Structured Streaming in their cloud environment. And they also announced that they have gone beyond, in terms of the code that they've built, the micro-batch architecture of Structured Streaming, to enable it to evolve into a more true streaming environment to be able to contend credibly with the likes of Flink. 'Cause I think that the Spark community has, sort of, had their back against the wall with Structured Streaming that they couldn't fully provide a true sub-millisecond en-oo-en latency environment heretofore. But it sounds like with this R&D that Databricks is addressing that, and that's critically important for the Spark community to continue to evolve in terms of continuous computation. And then the serverless-apps announcement is also very important, 'cause I see it as really being, it's a fully-managed multi-tenant Spark-development environment, as an enabler for continuous Build, Deploy, and Testing DevOps within a Spark machine-learning and now deep-learning context. The Spark community as it evolves and matures needs robust DevOps tools to production-ize these machine-learning and deep-learning models. Because really, in many ways, many customers, many developers are now using, or developing, Spark applications that are real 24-by-7 enterprise application artifacts that need a robust DevOps environment. And I think that Databricks has indicated they know where this market needs to go and they're pushing it with R&D. And I'm encouraged by all those signs. >> So, great. Well thank you, Jim. I hope both you gentlemen are looking forward to tomorrow. I certainly am. >> Oh yeah. >> And to you out there, tune in again around 10:00 a.m. Pacific Time. We're going to be broadcasting live here. From Spark Summit 2017, I'm David Goad with Jim and George, saying goodbye for now. And we'll see you in the morning. (sparse percussion music playing) (wind humming and waves crashing).

(electronic music) >> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We are here live in San Francisco for Cisco's inaugural event. First time they're having DevNet Create, an extension of their classic DevNet program. I guess not so classic, Peter, it's been only three years. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and here my co-host, Peter Burris, general manager of Wikibon.com. Our next guest is Jim Bugwadia who is the founder and CEO of Nirmata startup. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So, thanks for coming on. First question before you get started, what do you guys do? Take a minute to talk about what your company does, and why are you here at Cisco DevNet Create. >> Right. Yes, so Nirmata is a SaaS for cloud application delivery and management. So what we do is, you can think of us as a logical layer above the big three cloud providers as well as private clouds, and we provide a common set of application services for developers who are looking at multi-cloud use cases, and even edge computing moving forward, to provide a common layer. >> I was just covering SAP Sapphire last week, again, on multi-cloud again coming out. Multi-cloud is the hottest trend right now in terms of what people are seeing. And that makes a lot of sense. No one cloud is going to win it all. There's never been a winner-take-all, Jerry Chen at Greylock said that many years ago. Turns out he's right. However, you got the big cloud guys lining up. The question is, multi-cloud, is it reality yet? Or it's just hybrid IT, hybrid cloud, just the stepping stone to potentially a multi-cloud world. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, good point, and hybrid is certainly the stepping stone but what we're seeing more and more is the application sort of being chosen to go on one cloud or another. So it's not at a point where we're seeing the same application span multiple clouds but based on the workload, based on the application type, enterprises deciding whether to put them on private cloud, public cloud or a choice of public clouds. >> So, define multi-cloud real quick. Take a minute. So let's get your definition of what is multi-cloud. >> Right, so to me it's a combination of being able to choose your infrastructure services primarily, and being able to have a portable set of application components and constructs which can span either these public or private cloud deployments. And today of course it's a lot of momentum towards public cloud but private cloud is also going to continue to grow and will continue to grow for various reasons. So having that choice of deployment is really what we're seeing as multi-cloud today. >> And of course put a plug in for Wikibon and Peter's research. They just put out on a new true private cloud report and they had it pegged at a market of what? 260 billion? >> For a true private cloud, yeah! >> For a true private cloud, yes. So you're right true is going to be big. >> And John, just another point. We are actually doing a multi-cloud crowd chat tomorrow at 9 a.m. Pacific. So, anybody that wants to participate in a crowd chat about multi-cloud, 9 a.m. Pacific tomorrow. >> Okay, good plug, check it out Crowdchat.net, check it, it's going to be right there on the front page. You should get on that Jim. But I want to ask you to go to the next level. Multi-cloud, let's peel the onion a little bit. Does that mean I can run workloads on any cloud, or do I put a workload on one cloud and then I put another workload on another cloud. Or, can this workload, if the capacity is bad, move over to another cloud. It just smells like a latency problem to me. It just seems like ungettable at this point. What's your definition, is that multi-cloud? What is multi-cloud? >> Yeah, so what is happening in the developer space of course with the big adoption of containers and the push towards containerizing applications, now we have that ability to rapidly spin up services as needed on different cloud platforms. And really, a cloud becomes a place where you can have a container host and an end-point for deployment. So you combine that with management services, application management services like Nirmata, and now you do have that choice of being able to set policies either based on demand and scale or usage, or based on recovery from faults in the infrastructure to span different clouds from the same workload. >> Okay, next question for you. Great to have you on, great subject matter expert there. Thanks for answering the questions. But this one is a little bit different. If I want to secure cloud, with say Amazon, put my stuff there. You've seen mostly Test/Dev, and the Oracle CEO talks about this all the time . It's pretty much all Test/Dev. Okay that ship has sailed. Pretty much no brainer. What percentage of the workloads now, or what workloads specifically are going beyond Test and Dev that you've seen that are going into production. Because now with hybrid, it opens up more range of apps beyond Test and Dev. So certainly Test/Dev is happening, we get that. Low hanging fruit. What's the next level? >> Yeah, so I think the one way to categorize it is systems of engagement and systems of record of course. So we're seeing anything public facing whether it's mobile, web-app properties, web applications, more and more micro-services style SOA applications. Those are the next wave that's going to cloud. Data residence tends to stay with private cloud for a longer term. But even that, over time we're seeing with VPC is, with the right security constructs, being a viable public cloud, being a viable option there. >> One of the top questions we have in our CrowdChat community, that comes up all the time around DevOps. So I'm going to get your thoughts on this. What advise would you give to operations practitioners who are afraid DevOps is going to automate away their jobs. >> Jim Bugwadia: Yeah (laughing) So, yeah, great great question, and that's very far away from the reality. What's happening with DevOps is now we're getting to a better definition of what Devs need to be concerned about and what Ops needs to be concerned about, right?. And again pointing to containers as one of the enablers, microservices as another. We're seeing where application developers want to operate their own applications. They want control of their destiny. But the furthest thing from their minds is to worry about IP addressing and security concerns and things like that. So there is, and it's interesting, because enterprise DevOps is very different than what you would find in a start-up or in a cloud or internet giant, right. And there is no mythical enterprise developer who can do all of this themselves. You need a Dev and you need an Ops. >> The mythical mammoth kind of goes out of the window. We had CMO, EVP earlier on. We had, it was Matt Howard, and he is an experienced guy. But he was saying, 100 developers have ten IT supports and one security person. He sees that completely flipping around. So if you take this whole notion of the jobs are going to go away. Which I think is BS. Certainly things have to be automated, machine learning is great for that. But you can see the shift happening. There're certainly more security guys. More operational IT guys not doing escalation, doing actual, real IT. So I think, there's going to be a shift of jobs. So you might be displaced functionally. You're a plumber, now you you're a machinist. I get that. Where are the hot jobs? If that's the case, if you believe, which I think you do. >> Right >> Where are they going to shift to, what does the job profile look like. >> Yes, much like we're seeing even in software development itself. The level of abstraction and the amount of knowledge that has to be absorbed, keeps increasing. So it's more similarly in operations what we're seeing, like you mentioned, rather than being something, doing something at a low level. Now its understanding what are the best policies for, let's take security as an example, in AWS, in Azure, in private cloud. How do you now make sure you have the right visibility and governance with things like containers, microservices, where the applications are so dynamic, it cross various environments. So it is a transformation in the type of role and skill-set, and I think it's for the better. Because now you really have time to step back and look at this holistically and contribute back to the business. >> Here's a philosophical question for you, and may be Peter you could weigh in too. What single misperception about DevOps would you like to see change out in there? As people try to grasp DevOps, we hear it's a movement, we hear it's a playbook, with this, it's an Agile Manifesto, grow organically, you know, Conway's Law, All kinds of stuff we've been talking about so bottom line, what is the most misunderstood or misperceived issue about DevOps >> Yeah >> That you would like to see changed. >> Yeah, so to us, the one issue that we always emphasize is there will be a Dev and there will be an Ops. And any product that tries to minimize one role or another is not a good fit for enterprises. So, what's needed is a transformation of that Ops role to the role, from just being the direct service provider, the hands-on ops person to more of a governance curation. In some ways an architect type of role, right? And that's what we're seeing, is that Ops role is not diminished. It's actually heightened and highlighted. >> John Furrier: Great point! >> We've already talked about it in 6many respects, the idea that we're going to go from application development to pushing a button and having the business suddenly run differently is just silly. At the end of the day-- >> You think people think that's what DevOps is? Just a magical, rub the bottom and the genie pops out. >> There is a lot of people that think that DevOps is a step on the path to no Ops. To having no people involved in operations at all. And that's just not going to happen. >> So you believe that Ops is still going to be relevant. >> I think Ops is always going to be relevant. I think that Dev is going to evolve to better understand, and have greater data and visibility on what's going on in Ops. And Ops going to have greater predictability in what's going to happen from a development standpoint. So I think we will see a combination of roles. We'll see the productivity of Ops continue to grow. But the idea that this is going to be, that there is magic in here, and Gandalf is going to wave his DevOps-- >> What would Trump say about DevOps? Oh we're great at it! I've done it 10 times! >> What would Trump say? Trump would say, I think Trump would say, "I've never been to Mexico." (laughing) >> I'm going to make it amazing. We'll build a wall of IT. (laughing) I needed to bring that in, sorry, laughing about Trump earlier with the whole thing going on. Okay. Good point. Some are saying in the community, not no Ops, but new Ops. It's a new kind of Ops. >> Yeah, the way we see it is that what we think of as DevOps is splitting more into functions like application operations, security operations, and infrastructure. So really all three need to be accommodated and they need to work together. And that's sort of how we have built up Nirmata as our private software. >> And there is ops for all three of them. In fact, the last conversation we had John was, and test you on this, is that, it is the inherent quality, or the inherent distributed quality of a lot of the new applications that we're building. Absolutely dictates that we start to parse Ops up differently. >> Jim Bugwadia: Right. >> That it's no longer running it on a single machine or on a single database with a network out in a client server domain. It is inherently distributed and therefore the tasks and the responsibilities and roles associated with the operations side of that are themselves going to be inherently distributed. Which requires new ways of thinking, new conventions, and new tools. >> Jim, I want to give you a final word. Give a plug about your company. Thanks for sharing your insight by the way. Appreciate you answering the questions. What do you guys do and what's up with the company? Talk about the status, the employees, how much funding you have, how much revenue you have, what's your goals. Go lay it all out. >> Yeah, so myself, my other co-founders, our background is enterprise software and we come from a network management background where we build centralized management systems for complex networks, distributed devices, etc. What we saw happening is with cloud applications are starting to mimic that complexity. And as applications move from back-office productivity functions to these hybrid distributed mission-critical, real-life functions that we use day-to-day, there is a need for this enterprise-grade management. So that's the type of centralized management we're delivering as a service to our customers. >> You have to become network of provides so you have to have app management. I mean that's pretty much what you're doing you're bringing network management paradigm to apps versus a monolithic app in some dashboard and now it's all over the place. Multiple form factors, access methods. It's a network in the app. >> It is. Yeah and today the customers are left to cobble together about 12 to 14 different tools correlate data across tools. And what we need to do is move beyond systems with just observe and report. To being able to observe, react and learn, and do things in real-time. >> John: Be actionable. >> Exactly! >> So you guys are simplifying that process. >> Jim Bugwadia: Absolutely. >> And is it a single pane of glass, is it a service, is it a software product? >> It's a cloud service. So you can think of us an overlay across any public or private cloud. And early on, we kind of decided, the best way to deliver infrastructure is as a service and we've learned that in real life. >> People who are doing that are winning. That's what Trump would say, winning. (laughing) He would say, I am going to the data lake swamp. >> Who knows what he'd say. (laughing) >> Of course I couldn't get that in there. Drain the swamp, he didn't get the data lake swamp. >> No I got it. >> Okay, go ahead. >> So we've built Nirmata completely as a cloud service because of that philosophy that we started with. And we want to give developers and DevOps teams the choice of any platform, right? And today it's all about cloud. The edge is also very real. We have industrial IoT customers who are looking at containers. >> Yes, your world is getting your TAM, your total customer market is getting bigger and bigger as every IoT device has data on it. Because data is an asset. It's part of the app. >> I want to bring that up. Just if we have just a second John. >> Yeah go ahead. >> I'm curious because on of the things that we believe is that increasingly the whole concept of digital business is how will data feature as an asset in your business? Especially if we're creating sustaining customers. Totally buy in to the idea of the external view versus the internal view. For customers versus for employees. That for customer side, the engagement side is really driving a lot of this. But at some point in time it makes me wonder if we're going to move from a DevOps orientation to a data ops orientation. Where at the end of the day, the physics of how things run is, where is the data, what saliency to get at it, how do you handle the state of it, etc. Do you foresee a... at least, or an extension of the DevOps concept so the data as an object is something that we act upon, and we understand what role it plays in this whole bringing together a lot of piece parts to create distributed digital systems. >> I think so. Starting point of that, that we're seeing is the split between data services and behavioral services. Look, any form of programming it's all about packaging behaviors and data, right? So whether it's in a programming language, and with object-oriented it was about putting things together in a object. Now with service oriented in microservices, it's the service bound rates. So having the data services and then having the behavioral services separated gives a lot of flexibility. And then being able to move the compute to the data versus the other way around that is also very interesting. So we're working with some partners where we're looking at cross cloud data. Can we, as even services in containers are spun up under one cloud. Can we clone an entire environment into another cloud. Can we migrate some of the data efficiently? Challenges like that. >> Well Jim, we're going to recruit you. I just made a note to ping you for tomorrow's CrowdChat. To see if you could make it or one of your co-founders. Love to get your input at the community as part of sharing insight into this really fast growing, changing world of management with all this complexity. I mean there are more tools out there than ever before. They are all different types, a lot of complexity. So we hope to bring you back in the studio, or have you come in via Skype, or CrowdChat. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. Cisco's inaugural event, DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (electronic music) Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director of strategy and planning for--

>> [Voiceover] Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Palo Alto, California inside theCube's new studios, 4500 square feet in Palo Alto, just opened up last month and excited to be here. Breaking down Mobile World Congress all day, from 8 a.m. to 6, today and tomorrow. As their day ends, we're going to pick up the coverage, do the analysis, get some commentary and reaction to all the news and also the big trends and my next guest here in the studio is Saar Gillai, friend of the Cube, Cube alumni, and former HPE Senior Vice President GM of the teleco business. Ran the cloud, then a variety of things with Meg Whitman at HPE, now he's independent board member and in between gigs on the beach, clipping coupons as we say, Saar, great to see you, looking good. >> Great to be here, nice studio. >> I'm excited that you could come in, this is exactly why we're having our show here in this new studio because a lot of folks that don't take the big trek to Barcelona who don't have to can come in and talk to us and you've been a veteran of Mobile World Congress for many years. Again, you ran, and actually built the cloud biz and also built the, I won't say NFV biz, but essentially the teleco communications division for HPE so you know a lot about what's happening in the industry and more importantly Mobile World Congress. This is the year that all the accelerant is coming to the table, all the rocket fuel is being poured out on to the bonfire, the matches are going to be lit, it's called 5G, it's called IOT, internet of things, internet of people, the devices look good, they all want to be Apple, they all want to be over the top, running entertainment, smart cities, cars, 5G is the holy grail, we're done. But seriously, where is the meat on the bone on this thing? Is it real, is this transformation hype or reality at Mobile World Congress? >> Yes. (laughing) >> Yes, hype or yes, it's real? >> There's a lot of hype, but there's some reality. I mean I think first of all, 5G is the latest thing, it used to be LTE, now it's 5G. What does 5G actually mean? Really, for people, what 5G means is you should have a lot more capacity, right? So 5G talks about even up to one gigabit in certain cases, lower latency and so forth. Now the thing about wireless is you know, there's no secrets in wireless, okay? It's not like... >> It's a physics game. >> ...Yeah, it's physics, it's not like ethernet, where you can go from one meg to 10 meg then all you have to do is run more line and you're good. If that was so easy in wireless right now, we'd all be getting one gigabyte right, but we're not. So the only way you increase capacity in wireless is through smaller cells, and there are some mimo technologies and so forth. You know, 5G talks abouts technologies that will enable you to do that, but it's much more of an evolution than revolution and people need to understand that. There's no fundamental shift, what they're talking about in 5G is adding a lot more bandwidth. Today, most of the frequencies being used are sub five gigahertz, those are great frequencies to go through walls, they're not that great in terms of capacity and there's not that much of them. Like AT&T might have 60 megahertz, that's the entire capacity they have in the U.S. And that's not much. And so they're talking about using millimeter waves, other things like 27 gig, 28 gig, 60 gig. Now, those do have a lot more capacity, they have other problems, they don't go through walls. So, I think instead of thinking about 5G, we need to think about, okay, what problems are we trying to solve? Like, what problems is this going to solve? I think in some sense, it's... ...while everyone wants more broadband, some of it is a solution looking for a problem. >> [John] Yeah, it's a field of dreams too dynamic, build it, they will come. That has been a network operator concept, right? And then we know the operators, and you and I have talked about this on theCube many years, the operators are having business model challenges, problems, challenges, there are opportunities, but at the same time there is a bigger picture I want to get your thoughts on. So in a vacuum, there's limitations, there's physics, but now, you're looking at a connected network, and this is the end to end concept, so under the covers of wireless, assuming wireless has its topology, architectural things you could do, smaller cells, different frequencies, how it's going through walls is preferred, longer distance, longer latency through walls, that's the ideal scenario. But I think there's a bigger picture around the different types of wireless networks, but there's cars, there's mobility, actual true mobility, 60 miles an hour in a car versus walking down the street or sitting in a stadium or at home. These are use cases. How much of it is a wireless problem versus another problem? NFV, end to end, virtualization, help us parse that through, how should we think about this? >> There's two issues, there's a wireless problem, we can talk about the different segments that make sense and don't make sense or how much they have to evolve to make sense. And then fundamentally, the networks are very... ...they're not that agile as we know. Which is why NFV really, if you remove NFV, and you just... ...NFV's about creating agility, and yes their doing for virtualization and yada yada, but it's about creating agility, creating automation, right? You can't have these... ...a lot of these networks were designed years ago even 3GPP, this is a decade old. And so yes, there's a lot of work that has to be done and creating much more agility in a network because the network isn't built for that. Just if you think about even simple things like number of subscribers that can go on and off, right? Okay, if you have a cell phone. Like today, if you look in the world there might be 80 billion subscribers, lets say. If you look at the number of cell phones and so forth. But once you start IOT, you might have 100 billion because every device will be a network. That's a different management system, right? Also, those devices may go on and off every day, right? Because you buy a new device, you plug it in the wall. Okay, phones, you don't start a new phone every day, right? People buy a phone to use it, so, the network becomes much more dynamic, the back end has to be more dynamic, that has a side effect and so there's a lot of work that has to be done on the backend to make it more dynamic. That's the backend problem and then, you know, they are working on it. >> [John] And the bright spots there are what? What are the bright spots happening today, this week at Mobile World Congress and the trends around the backend? >> Well, you know, I mean Mobile World Congress is a show, right? And these are not sexy things, so we probably won't hear a lot about them, but you hear about orchestration, automation, network virtualization, basically moving all this through the cloud paradigm, where you have a lot more flexibility. I mean if you think about what's happening NFV these days for example, you don't hear a lot about it, but what is happening a lot is onboarding work. Okay, we've talked a lot about it, from that hype, now we're into build-out, right? So you hear less about it, but stuff is actually happening. >> [John] So it's operational. >> [Saar] It's operational stuff. >> Yeah >> [Saar] They're modifying the system so that they can be ready to work when you get to that point. On the radio side, I think the important thing to understand is like you said exactly, there's multiple use cases for 5G. The most interesting and immediate one, potentially is to use wireless to compete against cable. Which is fixed wireless access. You know, there, the telecos for years have wanted to do it, there was this whole discussion about fiber, then it turned out fiber's expensive. >> [John] Yeah, you've got to trench it, you've got to provision it to your home, you've got to roll a truck. >> Took Google a few years to figure that out, but even for Google, it's expensive. >> [John] People who have done that said you're crazy, but Google's has had so many deep pockets and Facebook does the same thing with their kind of R&D projects. >> They figured it out, there are technologies, millimeter wave is a bit hard because it doesn't go through walls, but I think when we talk about capacities, it's not for your mobile phone, it's for other things, it's mostly for fixed wireless access. There's a whole discussion about cars, I personally, because we're talking about opinions here, I don't understand the problem so much because the reality is the car's going to be a mobile data center. So 90 percent of the data that's generated by the car will be kept in the car and the car will be sending analytics and metrics up so it doesn't need gigabits. It's not like every time you turn you need to get it an instruction. Maybe that's what the network guys want you to believe because then you need like zero latency. But you don't need that, it's much easier to invest in a better system in the car. So the car's not going to figure out... >> [John] The car is a computer, it's not a peripheral. >> Yeah, it's a peripheral. >> [John] It's a data center to your point. >> [Saar] It's a full data center. It's the edge that computes, so I don't think that's an issue, I think the car will need coverage and so forth. >> But that's a different thing, cars are great examples so let's take on this one. 'Cause this is a perfect mental model. A car is going to have all this capacity like a big computer >> [Saar] It's a data center. >> [John] Or a data center. >> [Saar] A mini data center. >> A lot of things, a lot of instrumentation, a lot of software, glue. >> [Saar] It's going to have 10 computers, big systems, it's like a little data center. >> But it also moves fast, so it's a true mobile data center. So it needs mobility. So mobility has trade-offs, right, with the wireless piece at least. Depends on how you're uploading. >> Again, it depends on the capacity. Mobility has certain elements when you get into Doppler Effect and so on. It's always a capacity trade off. All of you have talked on your cell phone or used data on your cell phone in your plane, we know this. When the plane's landing, that's 150 miles an hour when the plane lands, okay, and it works pretty well. >> We all cheat, don't turn on your cell phones, we're landing. >> [Saar] Yeah, exactly. >> We've all done it. >> So again, if you want to run a gigabit, it's a problem, if you want to run less it's not such a big deal if a car's going 60 miles an hour. So it depends. Now if you define the use cases, I need a gigabit for every car, there's a million cars, that's a problem. If you define the use case, as something else it's not a big problem. There is a problem though, and I think that is something that the 5G is trying to address in terms of more on the backend of density. >> Density in terms of signal, or density in terms of... >> In terms of support, so for example, the one place you can never use a cell phone is in a conference, because too many people are trying to get on at the same time. It's a statistical model. >> [John] A-station issues. >> It breaks, and so with a car also, you're going to have high density because if you have a traffic jam, all these cars are talking or receiving, so that's a bigger issue. And 5G does talk about that as well, but that's a bigger issue than pure capacity. Pure capacity, great, I'll give you this much megahertz... >> [John] I agree with that. >> You can do that on WiFi today. >> [John] I totally agree with that. So let's take a step back I want to get a little color on Mobile World Congress. Talk about what's going on right now. So it's dinner, people at parties, what goes on? People want to always ask me, John what always happens? First of all, Barcelona is a great city as you know, we've been there together for some HP events, as well as for Mobile World Congress. What's happening, you always make the comment it's a Biz Dev show which means it's business development going on. All the top executives go there, deals are being cut, but it's also a large trade show as you will for mobility. >> I think like you said, from my experience, the biggest value of Mobile World Congress is not the show itself, with all due respect to the show, it's the fact that everybody and anybody who is somebody is there, that's why we're not there. So you can meet people. And so if you want to meet a bunch of people, teleco leaders and so forth, that's what you do. This is the place. You all say, okay, we'll meet at Mobile World Congress. So like for example, when I was down there I would basically go back to back from in the morning until 10 at night, in meetings, dinners, whatever with CEOs of various telecos or CEOs of partners and so on. Everybody's there, and I never actually got to see the show because I never got out of a meeting. And most of what happens there is that. That's amazing because again, everybody's there. >> [John] There's a huge ecosystem involved. Talk about that ecosystem because this is the dynamic. And first of all, we don't have to go there because we've got theCube here so we're there virtually, digitally, and that's what we do now. This is great, in the studio, we save ourselves the three day flight to go to Barcelona. It is crazy there, but it is about the community there, because you have that opportunity to get the feedback, do deals. >> [Saar] A lot of deals around there. >> [John] A lot of deals happening, also feedback, trying to connect the dots and having the right product strategies. What are some of the things that you think is happening right now from a business standpoint in these meetings, right now? Are people still scratching their heads on over the top, is it the classic problems, what's the current state of the union? >> Well, you saw Vimpel Com change their name to some other thing, so I think what you're seeing right now, is there's still sort of multiple dynamics going on. One dynamic is there's people maneuvering around how 5G ends up closing and there was some discussions about that, there was some release done about hey we should speed it up and then Enrique said no this is silly. So there are some discussions, there is some maneuvering going on like any time when you're doing a spec, when does it freeze, when does it not freeze? Some of the telecos want this, and so forth. That's sort of in the background going on. They're still trying to figure out, you know, business model is still an issue. The people are experimenting and you're going to see a lot of that, experimenting with apps, experimenting with these monetization strategies. So there's a lot of that going on, trying to figure out, okay, how do we monetize the network in a better fashion? >> What do you think the best path is from your perspective? Just putting your industry hat on, if you had to kind of lay down some epic commentary to the teleco bosses, hey you got to cannibalize your own, get out in front, what would you advise them in terms of what to get out in front of, what to double down on? >> I think some of them are actually doing this, but I think first of all, I think they should forget about worrying about the technology. I mean, technology is very important, we need to take care of that, but really, they need to know what are they good at? What are they strong at? So their strong at a customer relationship, they have customers that they quote unquote have as partners, those customers, and they're very strong so what can you do with that partnership as opposed to all kinds of other random stuff. Now, if you look at what they're doing, they're doing different things. Some of them are like buying different media companies, so there's no easy path, but they're going to have to use their strength as opposed to try to become somebody they're not. They're not going to become Google, they're not going to become Amazon, they're not going to become one of those guys. They do need to become more cloudified just to be efficient, but that's because that's sort of the... ...just to play, you have to pay that card, but they're not going to be better than the existing, but they do have a very strong relationship with customers, they could probably sell them more things if they focus on good customer service. Customers are happy to work with them if they get a good deal and a frictionless environment. So, I would certainly encourage all of them, and I know many of them are focused on this, to improve your frictionless interaction for the customer. If the customer has a frictionless interaction and gets a good deal, they'll do business with them. >> Are you worried about the teleco's customer relationship when they have this decoupling trend kind of happening where the consumers want to take their phone or device and uncouple it from the network and just add more mobility across networks. So if there's better connectivity, I could be able to hop between Verizon, AT&T, whoever, that seems to be something that a lot of folks technically are saying from an architectural standpoint, having that personal centric view versus a network centric tie-in. Is that on the radar at all? Or is that still kind of in a way, fantasy? >> It's like people are still using AOL, right? >> [John] Who? Who? (laughing) >> They voted for Trump then, huh? >> I'm not going there right now, we can discuss that later. The point is, the primary area where there's problems in that area is roaming. And there's a lot of discussion about roaming. 55 or 60 percent of people turn off data when they go overseas because the roaming fares are so incredibly expensive which makes no sense. Why would I have a longer cost because I happen to have an AT&T contract in Europe, I'm not using more data than somebody in Europe and it's going through the backend of the internet anyways. So I think there... >> [John] It's a great way to jack the user with more fees. >> But that's not sustainable. >> Of course. >> I think there, you're going to see pressure of people and there's some companies who provide apps, and cards and sim cards, but there's now soft ways of doing it, there you're going to see pressure and I think eventually that will go the way of the messaging, where... >> [John] Like WhatsApp >> Yeah, they'll come up with something that will allow you to have data at a much cheaper rate, I don't know, does it make sense to switch carriers in the local market if you have a good price? I mean, what's the point? So again it all comes back to, do they give you a frictionless service? If they give you a frictionless service that is at reasonable cost, then you'll use it. So you've got to look at places... ...where their going to have people leave them is where they don't do that. And there are places they don't do that, roaming is one of those places. >> [John] So I've got to ask you about IOT, obviously it's the hottest trend, AI's more of the mental model that people get their arms around, they see virtual reality, augmented reality, they call that AI, it's more of a mental model, it's really not AI, but IOT is really where the action is. People see networks, where devices as you mention are coming on and off, you just don't provision those as static devices. They're very dynamic. Your take on the IOT market, what's your view on that? Because a lot of action happening there. >> I've been involved in IOT and different people have different names for what T means, I won't go there here. >> [John] T and P, things and people. Let it be watch... >> [Saar] Well T could mean things, it could mean other things too, but the point is, IOT ...I was working in a company that was doing IOT when we called machine to machine, if we had called it IOT, it would have been better. The point is IOT is, this is extremely fragmented, it's a super super fragmented market. And it has different ecosystems. The more complex part of IOT is not the front end, it's the backend of how do you manage devices how do you tie them to some app, how do you configure them, provision them? >> [John] 'Cause of the backend, infrastructures are different. Some are IT based... >> Think about it, you've got all these devices how do you upgrade them? How do you make sure they don't start a denial of service attack on their own? How do you provision them, how do you manage their life cycle? HPE has some product in that area, a global connectivity platform, but other people as well. So, this is a bigger problem. The backend is a much bigger problem than the front end. What's the problem? Hypothetically, I can stick a SIM card into anything and it's now a device. Most of these things do not have a high bandwidth. Low bandwidth coverage is pretty good in urban centers, not if you go to Utah, but other places. So, the biggest problem is backend. Now obviously there's a lot of advancements that can be done on the front end too, because of power issues. The biggest problem with IOT is depending what you want, you have a power issue. For example, we used to do this back in the day, you built these little devices, you stick them on containers, and then you can find out where the container is at any given moment. That's great, but how long does this thing last? I think IOT is a very big thing that's happening, I think most of the problem in IOT is not in the front end, it's in the back. >> [John] Yeah, I would agree with that. Also it allows you to get more data too. Another problem is storing up more data which is security, data, IT management, basic stuff. >> [Saar] Very basic stuff, and that stuff is hard to fix because again usually IOT is not a green field that are going to connect to something that exists. You're just augmenting it with IOT like if it's a power meter or something so now you have this existing ecosystem that has to interact with something that is brand new and so there are various companies who build interfaces and how to solve it, there's management issues. But I think IOT is real. >> [John] So let's talk about cloud. So cloud you also had your hand in at HP as well, you had a wireless background, the folks might not know that, going back before then. The cloud really is an opportunity, we see that with Amazon and then Microsoft's now got their stock up and so obviously cloud, it's a bigger game, it's hybrid, it's happening and then you have all these other fringe things developing around the mobility piece. How is the cloud changing the Mobile World Congress game? Because now it's a show that kind of blends. It feels like CES on one hand, it feels like Cloud World on another. It feels like IOT and teleco world, and all these things are kind of in a melting pot. >> Well I think to me, when I look at Mobile World Congress, I think of okay, it's teleco world, really because whatever the telecos happen to be doing is what the show is about, right? If you think about the telecos, we're talking about companies that have a capital like I think AT&T spends like 20 billion dollars a year or something in that range. We're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars of capital budget and whatever those folks are interested in is what shows up in that show. >> [John] So it's still a Teleco show dominant, you don't see that changing at all? >> No, but what teleco is, is changing, right? I mean they have broadcast, so what I'm saying is whatever the telecos are interested in is what shows up in that show. Drones, cars, telecos have their hands in all these things. And that's why it shows up in the show. Because ultimately the show is about the telecom space and the primary players. If you go down there, the booths that are as big as a country club, you know the Ericssons and so forth, it's a teleco show and people who want to be relevant like Intel as they want to be more relevant in wireless is building a bigger and bigger booth over there. But what teleco is really is about connecting things and as there's more things to connect, telecos get involved in other things. If they see a business opportunity, for example drones, lets go back to talk about that because there's a whole drone day and all this other stuff there. I mean drones need higher... ...I don't think they need so much bandwidth although it depends what kind of video you want to do. But they do need reliable connectivity. It's something useful, right? And today, you could argue connectivity it's not super reliable, it's pretty reliable, but we all have dropped calls every five minutes, right? I mean if a drone drops a call, that may not be that easy. There's use cases around these things >> [John] And back to your earlier point, I think this is the most important for the folks to listen to and hone in on is that there's a use case in every corner depending on the view of the market. Drones is one. Take virtual reality, augmented reality, that's another. IT, enterprises connecting, entertainment over the top, smart cities, these are all kind of nuanced areas. >> But when people want to understand, separate the hype from the non-hype, see if you can understand the use case. If you can't understand the use case or if the use case seems out there, then the technology is probably out there. Technology on it's own is fascinating, but if there's no use case that makes sense right here right now like again, for example, if I got a gigabit to my phone right now, would it make a difference in my life? An extra 20 hours of battery life would make a difference in my life more than a gigabit. >> That's a good point, right now battery life is more important than connectivity, but as the network transformation which is a big buzz word for this show is coming to the surface, that's an end to end architecture with software. So we think about traversing cloud, software, delivering of apps and services that's different. Now the apps have more headroom in that case, but then to your point, the backend's got to be... ...under the hood has to be smarter. Or is network transformation not yet there? >> Well I think what's happened is that the OTT, the OTTs started developing 20 years later, and surprise surprise, when you develop 20 years later, you have advantages, doesn't matter who you are, so their backend is a much further generation than the teleco's backend and so that's why when you connect to OTT services, it's consumer experience, it feels seamless and so forth, when you connect to the telecos backend, it's sort of a mismatch. And so they need to sort of fix that and that's part of the NFV transformation they're working on and again it's not because they had any limitations its because they had existing stuff, it's much easier to build from scratch. >> Final comment on Mobile World Congress this year, and outlook for the next year, your thoughts? >> We need to parse out what actually comes out of there. It's still early, I think 5G, 5Gs going to be what people are going to talk about, this is the thing. It means multiple things, but that's because the entire teleco world, if you think about it, if you look at the revenue of the suppliers and so forth who have been in a holding pattern ever since 4G sort of, in China, they finished 4G deployment and so the next big capital spending is going to be 5G, and so you're going to see the providers push anything to get that going. That's just the bottom line. >> Great. Saar Gallai, final comment, what are you working on now? Obviously we got to know you at a personal level with HPE, I've seen your roles, and the last one was really handling that teleco business which you grew up from a handful of people to hundreds of people, thousands of people. You're a land grabber, kingdom builder, empire builder. What are you up to now, what are you looking at for opportunity? I know you're doing some investing, you have some independent boards, what's your world like now here in Silicon Valley, what's your activities look like, and what's your thoughts on the valley in general and entrepreneurship and your activities? >> First of all, what I'm doing, the good news is I'm sitting here in Silicon Valley and so I'm very busy doing various interactions with bbcs, with startups, consulting, looking at different businesses, there's so much interesting things going on. Every morning you can look at new things that people bring over. Whether they're teleco related or not teleco related. Just some amazing things going on. Something from new wireless protocols to cloudification and so on, and I also sit on a few boards so I'm spending a lot of time doing that, looking at different things. >> [John] What's exciting for you right now? What's getting you jazzed up? >> There's so many different things, like I said, I think... >> [John] What's the coolest thing? >> The coolest things, some of the most cool things are.. >> [John] Confidential? >> Yeah, stealthy, I would say. I'm looking at some wireless stuff that's pretty revolutionary that I think could be new protocols that sort of change the whole dynamic of how wireless works, that's pretty interesting. And then I'm looking at some other things that are just how you apply cloud to different problems in the world. If you look at the cloud paradigm, it's existed for a fair amount of time now, but although we talk about it all day, most of the things in the world, most of the apps, most of the problem sets are not leveraging any in the cloud. They're still at best using >> [John] Recycled IT. >> Recycled IT, or sometimes even Windows 98 for all you know, right? In Africa, Africa went to wireless directly, they never did wired. So there may be a lot of industries that never go from Windows to proper data centers. They just go straight from basic Windows directly to the cloud. There's lots of opportunities that are interesting there. I'm looking at a few CEO options. But it's very exciting, there's so much going on. There's just so many things happening. >> [John] Well let's get into that tomorrow, you're going to come by tomorrow at 4:30, folks watching tomorrow at 4:30 Pacific Time, Saar will be back in the studio, we're going to dig in to the entrepreneurial landscapes, I think one of the things that you highlighted that we were talking about earlier is that sometimes you have technology looking for a problem, and the reality is that most of the game changing opportunities come out of left field that no one sees, these are the revolutionary game changers, the new technology, the hard stuff, not just some app that gets built, it's the real hardcore tech that could be applied to some of these real problems. And I think that's going to be the key. Saar Gallai here inside the studio, breaking down Mobile World Congress with theCube here in Palo Alto covering what's happening in Barcelona. We got some still phone-ins, late night in Barcelona, we're going to make those shortly, be right back with more coverage after this short break. (soft music)