(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering your Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> And welcome back to Boston, we continue our coverage here in theCUBE of the Red Hat Summit and welcoming now to theCUBE stage for the first time, I believe, David Gledhill. Who is the group chief information officer and head of group technology and operations at DBS Bank. David, good morning to you. >> Morning, hi, it's great to be here. >> All the way from Singapore, and he was early for the segment this morning. So you get extra points for that, congratulations. >> Put that up to jet lag. (men laughing) >> Thanks for being with us. David, anymore we talk about companies in general, everybody says everybody's a tech company now, right? Not the way it used to be. How is that playing out in your world in financial services as far as how deeply ingrained you have to be with the technology? >> Yeah, so very much, we are. Tech transformation started about 10 years ago. Been CIO of the company about 10 years. And frankly, the first five years were just fixing the basics. So getting in place what we'd call world-class systems. Doing a bunch of stuff on resilience and security and all of that kind of stuff. And the other thing, and this is the dramatic change, you know 10 years ago when I joined the company, we were 85% outsourced to managed service vendors. So I had technology people that basically were signing contractors and managing service agreements. We didn't have technology DNA. Over those five years and a full 10 years actually. We've been doing a lot about just insourcing and rebuilding our technical muscle if you like. So now we're, we've gone from 85% outsourced to 90% insourced. So we run, build and manage our own. We're now a technology company. >> And five years ago, we had a real big shift and we were closest to what was going on in China and so probably saw this before many, many of the other banks saw this around the world. Of what Alibaba was doing with Ant Financial and Tencent and this whole, just complete disruption of how customers interact with the banking industry. So we got an early lead on this digital transformation and really for the last five, six years have been doubling down on building a pure digital offering and we see ourselves as a technology company providing banking services, not as a bank with some technology department in the backend. >> Yeah, I'd love if you can, a little bit, to help us dig into that because, I think back it was okay, what does digitization mean 10 years ago, it was like oh, okay, I need to make sure I have a good website and maybe a good mobile app. Which is a fine starting piece, and also the piece you talked about is when it was outsourced, I'm managing pieces but I sign up for what I need today and when the business needs something, those outsources aren't necessarily tied to them, so you're playing telephone with them. Most the companies I've talked to that have brought skills back inside, it's because the needs of the business are constantly asking for more and it can't be well, it's not part of our contract with what we have. We'll get to that in a year or two. >> Yeah, yeah, so that's a very interesting shift. It plays out in a number of different dimensions. First of all, let me go into that question of business and tech and that separation. When we were managed service, it was literally writing contracts and the specs and handing to vendors. It was just a horrible process. And how can you be a modern technology firm like that? So insourcing, for us, was one big thing to owe those people, but when you insource, then you end up with a business unit and a technology unit. And you still have got silos, so how do you break that? Because that really is a problem. If you look at the way technology companies work, they don't work like that. Five years ago when we said, okay, how do you make that flip to being the digital company? We went very deep into how some of the great technology companies operate. We wanted to understand, what is it? How does that DNA work? How does that culture work? How do they organize themselves? How do they build technology? How do they become agile, speed to market? And so we looked at, we studied Google, Amazon, Netflix Apple, LinkedIn, Facebook and we call them the Gandalf companies. And we said, how can we be more like them? Well, a Gandalf is missing a D. And fortunately at DBS, we happen to have a D. (laughing) So our goal became how do we become the D in Gandalf? And that was just like a lightening rod through the organization because all of the sudden it said to our people, forget about biz and tech and things. You need to think about how these technology comp operates and be more like them. Which means there's no separation, there are no silos we are together building great technical products for our customers so we need to re-think the organization to make sure that happens. >> There's magic. (laughing) You've got a saying, making banking joyful. >> Yep. >> All right, which is not exactly the emotion that I associate with having to deal with my bank. It's fine, but joyful? A very unusual adjective there. What's that all about? And again, at the end of the day, how does technology enhance that? How does that compliment that and really boosted that? >> Yeah, so it was quite a radical moment for us. That came up, we were at a leadership meeting and talking about what is our purpose and how do we. Lots of people talk about customer journey, thinking and stuff like that but how do you bring that to life and one of the execs there said, well what about making banking joyful? And the rest of us just looked at him like he was from a different planet. Saying, are you kidding, what do you mean by that? But as we thought about it more, it has a great meaning and a great purpose to it, that we're not there just to do transactions but we're there to enrich lives, create new businesses, to make customers feel great in their financial stability, in the way they deal with us. And it applies on so many levels. So if you're a bank teller, you understand how to make banking joyful by just that, going the extra mile, in terms of service. If you're in infrastructure, and you're dealing with data centers and servers, you understand that making banking joyful, you must be there all the time. You must have sub-second responses, you must feel great in the customers hands, so it's something that you can apply to all aspects of banking and everybody plays a part in making banking joyful for our customers. >> All right, so David, bring us inside a little bit your organization, you said transforming to a technology company. What's that mean, what technology are you using? We're here at the Red Hat Show. Open-source, not the first thing that people think about when they they think about banking. So how does that fit into the culture that you're building? >> Yeah, yeah, okay, so, this Gandalf thing that I talked about, that's great as a logo and a mindset shift, but it doesn't get you very far. And so what we came up with is five key elements that have to change. And we had to work on to become more like a technology company. And one was a shift from projects to running technology like a series of platforms. That enables you to do agile at scale, but for that you need to organize very differently, which is the third thing. And then the fourth thing is that you need to build for modern systems. The legacy way of building technology just wasn't going to get us to where we needed to be as a technology company. And then the last bit is alternate everything. So, if you want speed to market and agility, you have to alternate. That modern technology stat, it was very obvious to us that the legacy, corporate technologies that we used to build systems, were just not going to win it for us. And so that's our move to open-source. Red Hat was a fabulous partner in that and we used Red Hat extensively throughout our entire infrastructure. And so we went through this rapid modernization of moving to open-source, moving to open-source database we used Merare DD quite extensively, but also, picking up pieces of the open-source from the Gandalf companies. We've seen the way they use open-source to scale. Plus also, to provide just amazing services. So for example, Netflix. We run a bunch of banking platforms on Netflix, believe it or not. It's kind of cool, banking on Netflix is a kinda crazy concept, but we brought that do life. What is is that Netflix we loved? We loved their engineering discipline around chaos engineering and the use of chaos to really build resilient platforms. So in our whole test and deployment framework, we have a lot of Netflix chaos elements built into that to make sure that when we actually are testing, we're testing for chaos and random failures which we inject into those platforms. We don't do it in production like Netflix do quite yet. This whole concept of site reliability and chaos and excellence of service is again something we learned from the Gandalf companies. So Gandalf was not just a, oh yeah, let's pester in the heart of the business article. It was really, let's use their engineering disciplines and design principles to build our own systems. Our network, Facebook, which is, you think of it as a network company. We think of network and the infrastructure layer. And our infrastructure and our networking is designed on a bunch of concepts that Facebook have about how they build their network within their data centers. >> Can you help connect the dots, you talk about a phenomenal technologies, chaos engineering, networking like these global companies. How does that lead to the outcome that you talked about? You know, joy to your end users? >> So if you want to make banking joyful, you have to be super-reliable. You have to be on the edge of the innovation curve all the time. Which means you need to be test and learn, which means you'll be very agile. You need to be able to scale very well and the open-source technologies enable us to scale superbly. You need to be able to to perform as well, superbly well. When I joined the company, our measure of how well our applications were performing is are they up or down? And then we advanced that to, well, are they up and maybe 80% of the time they responded within four seconds. Those are terrible measures because they're not joyful. That means 20% of the time we're awful. That doesn't bring joy to a customer. So what brings joy is we've now scrapped all those things and we're starting to look at performance, for example at the 99th percentile, so anything below that is just noise and the signal is what is our worst performing 99%, because if you wanna be joyful every single time that a customer opens your application you wanna be there and respond well, et cetera, et cetera. Same thing goes for customer science. Where do you get customer drop offs and how do you fix problems? So customer science and the engineering disciplines around observing and instrumenting a platform all the time become very , very important. So it goes very, very deep. You know it's a simple concept. But totally changes the way we engineer. >> Your line of work, or your industry obviously is very security oriented, right? >> Yeah. >> I think of healthcare being another with health information what have you. But certainly financial services, so in the open-source community, how do you address this, I would say it's not a clash by any means, but it's a concern, I would think, still that you have to be micro-observant of security practices and yet this is an open-community and exchange of ideas and could be an exchange of vulnerabilities or problems, too. >> So, sure, and we absolutely do. There are certain things that we, certain places that we won't go, or we will go but only for experimentation reasons because of that question. But you know arguably, we think that open-source company can more secure over time than non-open source, because you're also getting a bunch of people fixing it the whole time. And we've seen some of the issues with some of the open-source and the heart bleed and those other bits and pieces. But they were shut down pretty quickly and found pretty quickly. So we move with caution, we're very cognoscente. We move with our eyes open and it's really the zero day vulnerabilities that we are exposed to. But equally, if you're in a proprietary state. The whole thing that came up with the X86 platform in terms of the vulnerabilities there that apply open-source or not. So yeah, security issues exist everywhere. >> Right, all right, so, David, bring us in. You talked about some of the open-sourced technologies. Where does Red Hat fit into this? What's it like, how have they advanced that journey that DBS has been on? >> So for the heavy lifting, for the big applications that we want to run, and the majority of our workload going with open-source is fine, but you want to have open-source that also you think isn't going to break or have big security vulnerabilities to your question. And that's really where a partner like Red Hat comes in because it gives us access to all the wonderful benefits of open-source with a trusted partner that's putting industrial strength quality releases out that we can really rely on and bank on. So, in awhile we used open-source, at the periphery and true open-source that we just plug it off the internet. The really very, very high demanding workloads and very secure workloads we will always work with a partner that can wrap that into an enterprise-quality offering for us. So Red Hat has gone from zero to running way over 50%, 60% of our workload. And we'll continue to put it even more on that because it's a platform we can trust. >> That's great, so, when you look at your journey overall, how far are you along that journey? Anything when you look out, what are some of the things that are exciting you looking forward? >> So while we believe we're ahead of most banks. There are some that are in the mix, Goldmans are pretty far advance, Duetsche, a couple of the others, Capital One, a few. But it's a sort of rare breed. We're about 80%, 90% done on our transformation journey to get stuff to what we'd call cloud ready or optimized. But we think we're just scratching the surface because if you think about plugging ourselves into customers lives, making banking joyful, our external brand promise for that is live more, bank less. And nobody wakes up in the morning and says, oh, I can't wait to go to my local bank branch and go and do some banking. >> (laughing) I heard Steve talking about it yesterday. >> Actually there is one place. My wife loves going there because we do some great free cookies at DBS. >> John: Oh, excellent. >> But other that my wife, the rest of the planet doesn't really do that. >> John: Fair enough. >> If you want to live more, bank less, it's how do we get the toil of banking away from customers yet embed ourselves in their journeys. And for that we believe that this whole play on ecosystems is very important. So being a creator of an ecosystem or participating so that we take the banking toil out, and yet we inject ourselves, be that leisure or travel or insurance or whatever. And you don't see the bank, the bank is invisible. Then you're live more, bank less. To do that, you need great ecosystems. And we think three things help us to plug into ecosystems. Number one is you have to be able to scale very easily. And all the work we've done on the Gandalf stack means that were no longer afraid of scale, just bring it on. The second thing you need a lot of connectivity, and DBS two years ago, we launched the world's largest banking API platform. We went live with 150 different APIs and 60 live partners at the time. That's now grown to over 350 APIs and 100s of corporates and SME partners that wanna partner with us to pug us into their offering. So the more we do that, the more we disappear and let people live more, bank less. >> Well, next time, if you wanna bring some cookies with you, by all means, okay. (David laughs) We're always up for that, David, thanks for the time. >> Sure. >> We appreciate that and good luck on the mission and the journey there at DBS. >> Sure, thanks very much and great to be here, thank you. >> David Gledhill joining us this morning here, as we continue our coverage of the Red Hat Summit. We're in Boston. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> From Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering SAP Sapphire Now 2018, brought to you by NetApp. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I am Lisa Martin, with Keith Townsend. We have been here all day at SAP Sapphire 2018. Keith, this venue in Orlando is so huge. It's the equivalent of 16 American football fields. >> Yeah, probably should not have worn a pair of new shoes. >> No, but you did close your rings, so it's a trade-off, right? >> It's a trade-off, yeah. >> So, the keynote this morning started out with a bang. Bill McDermott, the CEO of SAP, is probably the most energetic, evangelical, C-level I've ever seen on stage. You really could feel the excitement, the momentum. They also followed that with some great announcements. You know, they've been saying for awhile, being pretty bullish about wanting to not just disrupt the Sierra market, but wanting to become one of the world's most valuable brands. They wanna be up there with the Apples, and the Googles, and Coca-Cola and Mercedes-Benz, who all have products that we all see, and touch, and feel, and buy. And they announced that the brands e-rankings just came out the other day, that they're number 17, up four spots from last year. So, their momentum is, they're really putting their money where their mouth is. >> Yeah, so SAP is the cash register of the world. 70% of the world's transactions go through SAP, but most of us don't see it. So, it's amazing to see that they're ranked number 17 on those brands that are very, you know, if you told somebody you worked for SAP, they'd be like, oh, okay, I think I might have heard of that. >> Right. >> Or, I've heard that that was the reason why manufacturing is down, because the SAP system was down. So, it is a bold statement to say that you're gonna go from that, to a household name. Interestingly enough, part of that is becoming an ecosystem. So, becoming a platform. What we've heard today was a lot of talk about how SAP is transforming from a product company. You know, a point-of-sale system is one thing, but to say that you've built a ecosystem, and a platform around that, is the goal that I think I heard today from the stage floor. >> And you're right, you talk about, you know, them becoming a household name, with a product that's basically invisible to most people who probably use it. They have amassed 390,000 customers in 46 years. They've been around for a long time. This event, though, is massive. The partner area alone is huge. There's probably more than 20,000 people not just that are here, in Orlando, but, he said, Bill McDermott, a million people engaging with SAP Sapphire via the online experience. That's enormous. But to your point, it's all really fundamentally due to the partnerships, the systems integrators, the technology partners and more who have helped them on their transformation. >> Yeah, we had KPIT on, they said the guest has been on 20 Sapphires for 20 years, the event has gone on for 25 years in some form. He remembered, initially, they might have had one or two sessions. They have 12, KPIT has 12 sessions this year at the Sapphire 2018. There's a huge ecosystem of partners, here on the show floor. Over 500, I think, sessions in general. We had the VP of Community for S/4. They have 1,000 how-to videos on how to just do basic things in S/4. Huge community, huge event. SAP is starting to make end rolls and becoming, again, not just a products company, but an ecosystem company, I think. Sapphire in Orlando is a great example of how they're expanding the brand. >> Yes, and in fact, on the brand part, you know, that's one of the things that their CMO, Alicia Tillman, who was on main stage this morning, that's something that I've heard her talk about before. She's been the CMO for about nine months now, and she said, you know, and marketers will know, campaigns and messaging will change every quarter, six months, and that is fine. It's the brand narrative that they really started to work on at SAP. So, you're seeing this "Best-run companies run on SAP", it's sharing the value of what SAP can deliver with their partner ecosystem, in terms of how it's helping customers transform their businesses, transform industries, save lives. They've done a very focused job on showing how this invisible technology is really revolutionizing the world. They're now going, you know, full-force, embedding A.I., and really being quite bold, they're saying. I loved what Bill McDermott had on the slide this morning, of augmented intelligence. And there's always a lot of concern with A.I, right? Jobs being replaced. And he talked about what he, and some of the other world leaders, were talking about. And I liked augmented intelligence, to augment humanity, this connection of humans and machines working together. They're really being quite bold, and focused, in that area. I'm just curious what your take was from an advanced analytics A.I. perspective. >> So, there's a lot of talk around advanced A.I. analytics. At the end of the day, it's about actual business results. We're here in the booth of NetApp, who has done a great job, frankly, of transforming their image from a storage company in the middle of a transformation to being known as a data-driven company. So, NetApp has gone through a similar change that SAP is looking to do, from a brand perspective. Reasonably enough, we had the CIO, Bill, from NetApp, that talked about that transformation, and how data is a key part of their own transformation, internally. And, how SAP could probably hold NetApp up as a great example of a company that's using the predecessor to C/4HANA, which was just announced, on the staged hypers of taking data, analyzing that data, applying A.I, machine learning, more like machine learning in reality. Machine learning to that data, and then getting insights, so that humans can make better decisions. >> Right. You know, on that front, one of the themes I heard today, Keith, from not just Bill Miller, the CIO of NetApp, who was on here with us earlier, but some of their other partners, NetApp and SAP's partners, all talk about their own transformations, internally, as essential for them to become intelligent enterprises, which is a lot of what SAP's talking about. But I also thought that was quite valuable, from an external perspective, to hear NetApp talk so candidly about their transformation, and share that with their customers who are in similar positions. I think, when vendors will, say, drink their own champagne, and there's real proof there in the pudding. I think that's tremendously valuable for these brands. And we've just heard that kind of consistently throughout the day today, of companies that are showing how they're transforming to then help their customers also transform. >> So, one of the things that we like to ask on theCUBE is not just about current customer base, but, what new customers are you attracting? So, one of the interesting conversations is one of the last ones we had with WorkSpan, and how they're a small company, and they started out the gate with SAP, and how the brand has gone beyond this, oh, this is a manufacturing, supply chain, you must be a Fortune 500 company to even consider rolling it out to. You know what? We're a brand new company, providing a data-driven product, and out of the gate, we're selecting a S/4HANA and the platform to create this new product that's consumed by not necessarily technologists, that powers an alliance platform to find and curate business alliances. I thought that was an extremely interesting interview that shows the power of expanding beyond just a focus on traditional enterprise, but the power of data. And once you've become a platform, how you can power your partner ecosystem. >> I thought that was a great example, as well, of a company that's only been in business for three years, less than four years. How they saw this gap in the market, where they said, you know, we're surrounded by alliance partners of SAP's in this 16 football fields location that we're in. And WorkSpan found that 60 to 75% of announced alliances fail. Huge opportunity for them to then get in from a systematic perspective and align, you know, two companies' marketing automation systems, for example, and sales automation systems. And they really saw this big opportunity to, like you were saying, create an entirely new product, and probably create a new market as a result. I thought that was a really modern example of an idea that saw a huge gap, and can be transformative. I asked Ahmed, after we stopped rolling the cameras, all right, so you found 60 to 75% of these announced alliances fail, typically. What does WorkSpan think you can do to bring that number down? And he said, within two years, we wanna get that down to about 30%. >> Wow. That is an amazing stat. So, let's look at the companies that are digitally transforming. So we had two guests that I want to highlight, one with Mike McGivney from SAP SuccessFactors, which is SAP's people-focused cloud, and then Wolfgang Hopfes, the head of SAP Business for EMEA. And they're on a unique challenge. SAP has been around for 46 years, and in IT years, that's like, you know, 1,000. So, there's a lot of technical debt, that companies are now paying for. You know, back in the nineties, early 2000s, customizing SAP was all the rage. Now, customers are faced with, they have to digitally transform their organizations, how do they do so? Well, it's not so easy to move from a customized SAP to S/4. Bill trumpeted the numbers of 1,800 SAP HANA customers, which is great, well over a billion dollars in sales for an in-memory database. However, SAP has over 300,000 customers. So there's a lot of opportunity, but a lot of challenge. So, the ecosystem of partners, Fujitsu, NetApp, other infrastructure companies looking to help simplify the infrastructure so that technologists within these customer organizations can focus on the higher stack of those larger business challenges of basically pulling apart what they've built. Bill from NetApp shared how difficult their transformation was from their CRM to >> Hypers? >> Hypers. He called it painful, a painful six months. And what we saw today, I think, was a reality check. A lot of enterprises have a lot of pain ahead of them. >> Well, it's pain in a number of areas, and one of them is cultural. And I really thought, you know, you say, SAP being 46 years old is like, 1,000 in IT, or dog years. They're like the Gandalf of IT, right? But one of the things that I found quite remarkable is 46 year-old history, 390,000 customers. But clearly, they have been able to evolve their culture to be able to support what their customers need, and go from just being a supply chain procurement-focused type of business. And I thought that was really quite compelling, to see how they must have had to transform their culture, so that they can help businesses transform. They make it look easy, with the messaging and the momentum, but that was something that for a company that's an incumbent like that, is a bit of, you might say, even a model for how to do that right. >> Yeah, we talked to Joe Lazar, he's the SAP VP of Global Technology Partners. He talked about how SAP likes to be pushed to be a little uncomfortable by their partners, and we asked him the tough questions. You know, there's been tweets and there's been announcements from all the ACI vendors. I've talked to customer after customer that says, you know what, S/4HANA on HCI is what we want. A very quotable comment that he made was, we're not doing S/4 on HANA because we want to, we're doing S/4 on HANA because customers demand it. So, SAP is definitely listening to customer demand, S/4 on HANA is one of those things. You know, he tried to stay away from the bad word of certified on 4HANA, and validated, and focused on solutions, but SAP has a little ways to go. And that's kind of a, you talk to any HCI customer, validated and certified 4HANA is a bad word today, but SAP understands it and they're moving to certify the platform for HCI, so I thought that was a great example of them listening to customers and continuing to transform over the years. >> You're absolutely right. In fact, you know, if you look up digital transformation, one of the first pillars that you're gonna see is you gotta become customer-centric. And we really heard that a lot today. Even NetApp, when you were talking with Bill Miller about ONTAP in the cloud, going it's okay guys, maybe we have to listen to our customers. If we don't we won't be in business. That's a hallmark of an enterprise that is digitally transforming. >> Yeah, I'd argue that Dave Hitts was the one who forced that, that kind of cultural change. You had to bring in the founder to talk to the engineers and that had very engineer-driven thinking And I think Dave was very direct, like you know, we have to make the change or we won't be in business. The pendulum has changed to cloud. The SAP, which is not by any stretch of the mind, was never designed to run in the cloud, but they're adopting the technology for what customers are demanding. There's an AWS booth here, Fujitsu was the first one to say that, you know what, if customers need fail-fast environments, that's exactly where they should go, and put S/4 implementations, and then steady states should be moved to RMPRAM or private dating center or hosted solutions. So, the ecosystem seems to be embracing this change. >> Definitely. Anything that you're particularly looking forward to tomorrow for Day 2? >> You know what? I love talking to customers, so I'm looking forward to more customer conversations, talking about how is this being used? We haven't really talked a lot about Leonardo much. So, you know, IoT, A.I., how are these things that get a lot of press being perceived by actual customers? How are they being implemented? What's their true adoption rate? >> Awesome. Well, I look forward to hosting with you tomorrow, Keith. Thanks so much. >> I appreciate it. >> Thanks for watching. Keith and I have been at SAP Sapphire, bringing you some hopefully great informative content. From the NetApp booth, Lisa Martin for Keith Townsend. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE. We are live on day three of our continuing coverage AWS re:Invent 2017. We've had an amazing three days, lots of great guests, lots of great conversations. I am Lisa Martin with my co-host Keith Townsend, and we're very excited to be joined by two guests new to theCUBE, please help us welcome Adam Burden, the Senior Managing Director of Advanced Technology and Architecture at Accenture, welcome to theCUBE Adam. >> Thank you so much. >> Lisa: And Sandra Stonham, one of the Managing Directors of Technology and Operations at DBS Bank, welcome-- >> Thank you. >> All the way from Singapore. >> Thank you, yes. >> Great to have you guys here. So we hear great things about there is a remarkable story that DBS has, that started last year when you guys attended the AWS re:Invent 2016. Talk to us about what you discovered last year and how this has facilitated your journey to cloud, your transition. >> So if I may, maybe I'll start just a little bit before that, because actually we had been playing with AWS before that. We actually have a huge transformation, transformation strategy that takes us towards cloud. So we've actually been using AWS for infrastructure as a service just scaling. We were putting our trading system grid on to that, so, that was our initial exposure, and then what happened to AWS last year is that I came to re:Invent and I saw all these rich, rich services that AWS were providing and I thought, we actually can't afford not to be building on this. So, from then, I went back, and with my organization I basically said, look, we need to be building natively on AWS, and so that's what we've been doing. We invited Accenture to come and help us because they actually have more experience of building natively on AWS, taking advantages of those services, and we invited them in, they've been working together with us, and we've got now native AWS applications using serverless. >> So Sandra, talk to a little bit more about that process, because, politically it's tough to move something as very consistent, very stable, as a bank, to digital transformation, and then even select not just a partner to help that transition, but AWS. How was that first set of conversations when you got back from re:Invent 2016, excited about the transformation opportunities, what were some of the internal discussions? >> Well as I said, we actually had a whole technology transformation strategy underway at that point, so we'd actually really looked deeply at ourselves and we looked also at the tech giants that are out there, and we'd created this whole technology transformation strategy that basically meant that we needed to go completely cloud native. Cloud native infrastructure, cloud native applications, complete automation on everything, and a very agile, agile and fast moving business environment as well to work with us. So we actually had that whole strategy in place and that was all underway, and we starting to work with AWS, so this was actually just an extension of that strategy. >> Tell me a little bit about this digital transformation strategy, I'm sure a lot of others would love to learn from what you guys are doing. What were the top three business goals that this transformation strategy needs to drive? >> What we did, actually maybe I'll tell you a bit about it. We call it Gandalf, and the reason we call it Gandalf is we actually took a look at our, all the tech giants, and we said, how can we DBS be standing tall among the tech giants. So the tech giants that we looked at were Google, Amazon, Netflix, Apple, LinkedIn, Facebook. And we said, how can we be the D in Gandalf. That kinda became our sort of code name and our galvanizing strategy. To help people understand what that really meant internally, we actually came up with five key themes, and we put them in a wheel, and we've got kinda five cheeses in the wheel if you like. Three of them are really about the organization and the culture, so one of them is organize for success, one of them is to change from project to platform, one of them is high performing agile team. So those are kinda the three organization and culture focus. Then we have two that are very specific to technology. One of them is design for modern systems, and the second one is automate everything. On each of these five themes we then have a whole load of sub-themes and that give people a little bit more idea of what they can do, and that strategy we've found has been very galvanizing for the whole organization so that everybody in the organization, they know if they are aligning to the strategy because they're doing one or more of these themes or sub-themes. >> So Adam, this is kind of the perfect customer. They already gone through a transformation, you don't have to have the conversation, cloud isn't a technology, it's more of a business process. What was it like engaging DBS for the first time in their transformation? >> Well the good news is, I was actually with Sandra at the re:Invent Conference last year, so I saw some of the light bulbs go on during that process. We engaged with DBS, they've been a client of Accenture for many many years, and we're delighted to have an opportunity obviously to work with them. Going in and having these discussions though, and helping them identify the right workloads to move to serverless technology, is something that we've done a lot for other clients. We move workloads all the time to AWS, and there's lots of different techniques to do that. You can just lift and shift, you can move things into containers and move them, but for the right workloads, you can get truly break through results, benefits and value release, by moving them to serverless. That's what we're able to identify for them and we worked through a process to do exactly that with that experience. It was actually very pleasant because we'd had an opportunity to see that process from the very beginning and I think that the inspiration at the end of that, that we've created about the value that can be generated is going to help to really drive even further adoption of cloud and other serverless technologies at DBS as a result. >> One of the things that I love that you were talking about is the cultural transformation. How long has DBS been in business? >> Sandra: Since the 1960's. >> Quite a long time, so the strategy that you laid out, I love also, not just the cultural transformation, those are hard and so challenging, but also the fact that as a bank, you want to be like one of those big tech leaders, and I think that's gonna be incredibly inspirational for people to hear your story that even in terms of adapting the culture, but even attracting talent that you have such big aspirations. How did you establish the strategy? What were some of the cultural elements that you have successfully changed and how quickly were people able to get on board with this? >> It's a very long journey and there are many different facets to that journey. We have a CEO who's very driven to be digital to the core. He's very visionary and has really sorta set targets for us as an organization. Embracing digital, embedding ourselves in customer journeys, driving for joyful customer journeys, making banking joyful is one of our missions. So he really set some of these strategies even challenging us as well to be a data driven company because we feel that's very much the future. We have a CEO who's really set many of these strategies out there, but even so, to make it happen in the organization is difficult. The agile teams is one aspect, where we've really been looking at what does it mean to be agile and sometimes you can be tech agile but not business agile, and so what does it really mean to be business led agile? So that's a long learning journey we're still on it. But we're getting some successes and so now that helps to start get other people on board. We also look at innovation, so we have an innovation officer and he feels that his job, his job of himself and his team is not to produce product, but to actually change the culture of the organization so that we look like a 22,000 person start up. He tries to, on many many different things, whether he's bringing in speakers, or whether he's out working with us to align to start ups and work with start ups so that we can really get exposure to how start ups work. Many many different aspects of what he does to just encourage innovation among everybody, right from the senior leadership down. So many different aspects of the cultural transformation. Another area is one we're grappling with at the moment, is how we do funding. When we want to move from projects to platforms, how do you take away that big cumbersome way of working where you fund these big initiatives and you have to wait for a long time to get any output and how do you move that more to a sort of iterative evolution of a platform that the business really owns and champions. All of these things, it actually crosses all aspects of the organization and I think you have to do all of them. You have to take every facet and work on it, and move it forward. >> So Adam, large company like DBS comes to you with these big aspirational goals, become a platform, from a technologist perspective, architect, that's exciting to hear. However, baby steps and chunks. >> Right. >> What were some of the first steps that you guys took after identifying opportunity and workload, what was some of the first technologies you engage AWS with? >> Well, Accenture, well first of all, I should probably explain that I'm a customer of DBS as well, they're my bank in Singapore, so I care very deeply about making sure that the work we are doing, even more so than Accenture would normally. (laughing) The things that we do to help a client get started on a journey like this, first of all, helping to identify the applications. A lot of times, one of the very first things that we do is we look at different patterns. Almost like a sewing pattern that you would follow and be able to repeat over and over again, different patterns for how workloads should actually move. We use those as ways that developers can kind of follow a recipe book almost, so that in the future as they're moving new workloads or they're building new services, that they do it in a very similar style and technique. Those initial steps, those processes, kinda set the tone for how the migration process will go, and you can really expand from there. If you try to do too much at once, without really getting a nucleus of it right, you'll have a lot of varying standards and it'll be much harder for you to be able to make the kind of progress that you want. So we typically try to start with a really good marquee, couple of projects, get those going really really well, save those patterns and then expand upon them as more and more workloads actually move. That's one of the key elements of success we find early on. >> Well Adam, as you engage with customers, and you're coming to a show like this, it's great that a customer gets really excited about the business opportunity, but working internal IT for long time, exposing just a little bit of the capability of AWS is both good and bad, because now you've exposed AWS and developers want the whole thing. They'll look at something like Sage, SAS Master I think it is, is the AI solution from yesterday. >> Or Recognition. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I want that today. But you have to be able to roll it out in a controlled fashion. How do you guys handle governance once you've embraced a opportunity and the relationship with a company like AWS? >> Well I can speak about, why don't Sandra, why don't you talk about that from DBS's perspective and then I'm gonna give you Accenture's as well. >> So no doubt about it, it's challenging. But governance is changing, regardless of whether you're looking at cloud internally or cloud externally, governance is changing. Now the whole focus is to give developers self-service access to everything they wanted. Everything they want to be able to do, so they can deploy, they can run tests, they can do all of things themselves. So that applies whether you're looking at private cloud or whether you're looking at public cloud. Now obviously in public cloud, all of those controls that you have internally, not only they need to change for the new world, but they also now need to translate, if you like, into public cloud. So things don't just necessarily, you can't just necessarily move them and apply the same things to public cloud as you do to private cloud. You have to go and reinvent them in public cloud. AWS is good in that they give you all the tools to do it, but the tools are not already set up, so you do have to learn about it and you do have to build slowly over time. That's why we started with simple things like infrastructure as a service which we can just scale up and down and now are moving to the more complex which is using the native services, which obviously need more governance around them and contain more data. So it's a learning process, but basically if you've got a great organization internally that really understands what it is you're trying to control, then you need to be able to translate that and see how that applies to AWS. >> One of the things that interests me Adam, is what you talked about with the recipes. Recipes, the consistency, how important was that for DBS Sandra, in terms of, alright they've got some prescriptions here on how we can be successful, talked about governance, the steps to take, so that like Keith was saying, you get exposed to all these things, you gotta kind of control everybody. But talk to us about the recipes and this kinda playbook for success, and what that means to DBS to be able to do things in a streamlined fashion and be successful. >> That was the real reason that we brought Accenture on board is because they've actually looked at applications before, in house applications that we've, that the people have built, and then they've looked at what would that look like if you were to rebuild that from scratch on AWS using native services. So they were able to work with us and work through difficulties with us to actually transpose those applications onto an AWS native format. That was actually very helpful, and that's been our learning. So the team that's been working together with Accenture has now learned, we've taken other applications from there and we're now looking at just starting directly building natively on AWS based on what we've learned. It's very valuable and I would say expedited our journey. >> Excellent. >> So let's talk about some of those newer services. Infrastructure as a Service, we can do what we do in our data center today in AWS much faster, there's instant value there, but as we start to expand out and look at something like serverless, how is DBS and Accenture in general looked at something like serverless and taken advantage of lamda? >> I'll tackle that one first maybe. Serverless technology for Accenture has been something that has really allowed our clients to move from looking at cloud as a data center to looking at cloud as a platform. It's an epiphany actually for many of our customers where they look at, well, absolutely, we can move our workloads into cloud, well maybe we'll get a lower operating cost, maybe we'll get some other benefits of being there, but now I can begin to actually, in serverless and other techniques, I can take advantage of the native services there to actually operate at a far lower cost and enrich it with new capabilities. Think about adding text to speech capabilities from Polly, think about adding image recognition facilities. Think about the other capabilities that you can now have because you're on a cloud platform that you wouldn't have if all you were looking at it was as simply another data center. That is the light bulb that goes on, and why I think serverless from a breakthrough standpoint, about the cost structure, the granularity of how things are metered and actually priced. But then the richness of features that are available, you're inventing your future there. It's available at your fingertips. You do have to control the governance, you do have to make sure that you're, you've got some guardrails around that, but the developers will be incredibly creative with those services and you will have new features that'll delight your business users and your clients much faster than you'd ever been able to in the past. >> I love that, ignite your future. I wish we had more time, because I wanted to ask you both about what you're excited about that was released and Adam got this great grin on his face, but unfortunately we are out of time. We wanna thank you both Adam and Sandra for joining us and sharing what you guys are doing. Sounds like the light bulbs are going off, continuously burning, and we look forward to hearing more of your great successes. >> Great. >> My pleasure. Thank you so much. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And for my co-host Keith Townsend, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from AWS re:Invent 2017. Stick around, day three of coverage, we've got more great stories coming back.

(electronic music) >> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We are here live in San Francisco for Cisco's inaugural event. First time they're having DevNet Create, an extension of their classic DevNet program. I guess not so classic, Peter, it's been only three years. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and here my co-host, Peter Burris, general manager of Wikibon.com. Our next guest is Jim Bugwadia who is the founder and CEO of Nirmata startup. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So, thanks for coming on. First question before you get started, what do you guys do? Take a minute to talk about what your company does, and why are you here at Cisco DevNet Create. >> Right. Yes, so Nirmata is a SaaS for cloud application delivery and management. So what we do is, you can think of us as a logical layer above the big three cloud providers as well as private clouds, and we provide a common set of application services for developers who are looking at multi-cloud use cases, and even edge computing moving forward, to provide a common layer. >> I was just covering SAP Sapphire last week, again, on multi-cloud again coming out. Multi-cloud is the hottest trend right now in terms of what people are seeing. And that makes a lot of sense. No one cloud is going to win it all. There's never been a winner-take-all, Jerry Chen at Greylock said that many years ago. Turns out he's right. However, you got the big cloud guys lining up. The question is, multi-cloud, is it reality yet? Or it's just hybrid IT, hybrid cloud, just the stepping stone to potentially a multi-cloud world. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, good point, and hybrid is certainly the stepping stone but what we're seeing more and more is the application sort of being chosen to go on one cloud or another. So it's not at a point where we're seeing the same application span multiple clouds but based on the workload, based on the application type, enterprises deciding whether to put them on private cloud, public cloud or a choice of public clouds. >> So, define multi-cloud real quick. Take a minute. So let's get your definition of what is multi-cloud. >> Right, so to me it's a combination of being able to choose your infrastructure services primarily, and being able to have a portable set of application components and constructs which can span either these public or private cloud deployments. And today of course it's a lot of momentum towards public cloud but private cloud is also going to continue to grow and will continue to grow for various reasons. So having that choice of deployment is really what we're seeing as multi-cloud today. >> And of course put a plug in for Wikibon and Peter's research. They just put out on a new true private cloud report and they had it pegged at a market of what? 260 billion? >> For a true private cloud, yeah! >> For a true private cloud, yes. So you're right true is going to be big. >> And John, just another point. We are actually doing a multi-cloud crowd chat tomorrow at 9 a.m. Pacific. So, anybody that wants to participate in a crowd chat about multi-cloud, 9 a.m. Pacific tomorrow. >> Okay, good plug, check it out Crowdchat.net, check it, it's going to be right there on the front page. You should get on that Jim. But I want to ask you to go to the next level. Multi-cloud, let's peel the onion a little bit. Does that mean I can run workloads on any cloud, or do I put a workload on one cloud and then I put another workload on another cloud. Or, can this workload, if the capacity is bad, move over to another cloud. It just smells like a latency problem to me. It just seems like ungettable at this point. What's your definition, is that multi-cloud? What is multi-cloud? >> Yeah, so what is happening in the developer space of course with the big adoption of containers and the push towards containerizing applications, now we have that ability to rapidly spin up services as needed on different cloud platforms. And really, a cloud becomes a place where you can have a container host and an end-point for deployment. So you combine that with management services, application management services like Nirmata, and now you do have that choice of being able to set policies either based on demand and scale or usage, or based on recovery from faults in the infrastructure to span different clouds from the same workload. >> Okay, next question for you. Great to have you on, great subject matter expert there. Thanks for answering the questions. But this one is a little bit different. If I want to secure cloud, with say Amazon, put my stuff there. You've seen mostly Test/Dev, and the Oracle CEO talks about this all the time . It's pretty much all Test/Dev. Okay that ship has sailed. Pretty much no brainer. What percentage of the workloads now, or what workloads specifically are going beyond Test and Dev that you've seen that are going into production. Because now with hybrid, it opens up more range of apps beyond Test and Dev. So certainly Test/Dev is happening, we get that. Low hanging fruit. What's the next level? >> Yeah, so I think the one way to categorize it is systems of engagement and systems of record of course. So we're seeing anything public facing whether it's mobile, web-app properties, web applications, more and more micro-services style SOA applications. Those are the next wave that's going to cloud. Data residence tends to stay with private cloud for a longer term. But even that, over time we're seeing with VPC is, with the right security constructs, being a viable public cloud, being a viable option there. >> One of the top questions we have in our CrowdChat community, that comes up all the time around DevOps. So I'm going to get your thoughts on this. What advise would you give to operations practitioners who are afraid DevOps is going to automate away their jobs. >> Jim Bugwadia: Yeah (laughing) So, yeah, great great question, and that's very far away from the reality. What's happening with DevOps is now we're getting to a better definition of what Devs need to be concerned about and what Ops needs to be concerned about, right?. And again pointing to containers as one of the enablers, microservices as another. We're seeing where application developers want to operate their own applications. They want control of their destiny. But the furthest thing from their minds is to worry about IP addressing and security concerns and things like that. So there is, and it's interesting, because enterprise DevOps is very different than what you would find in a start-up or in a cloud or internet giant, right. And there is no mythical enterprise developer who can do all of this themselves. You need a Dev and you need an Ops. >> The mythical mammoth kind of goes out of the window. We had CMO, EVP earlier on. We had, it was Matt Howard, and he is an experienced guy. But he was saying, 100 developers have ten IT supports and one security person. He sees that completely flipping around. So if you take this whole notion of the jobs are going to go away. Which I think is BS. Certainly things have to be automated, machine learning is great for that. But you can see the shift happening. There're certainly more security guys. More operational IT guys not doing escalation, doing actual, real IT. So I think, there's going to be a shift of jobs. So you might be displaced functionally. You're a plumber, now you you're a machinist. I get that. Where are the hot jobs? If that's the case, if you believe, which I think you do. >> Right >> Where are they going to shift to, what does the job profile look like. >> Yes, much like we're seeing even in software development itself. The level of abstraction and the amount of knowledge that has to be absorbed, keeps increasing. So it's more similarly in operations what we're seeing, like you mentioned, rather than being something, doing something at a low level. Now its understanding what are the best policies for, let's take security as an example, in AWS, in Azure, in private cloud. How do you now make sure you have the right visibility and governance with things like containers, microservices, where the applications are so dynamic, it cross various environments. So it is a transformation in the type of role and skill-set, and I think it's for the better. Because now you really have time to step back and look at this holistically and contribute back to the business. >> Here's a philosophical question for you, and may be Peter you could weigh in too. What single misperception about DevOps would you like to see change out in there? As people try to grasp DevOps, we hear it's a movement, we hear it's a playbook, with this, it's an Agile Manifesto, grow organically, you know, Conway's Law, All kinds of stuff we've been talking about so bottom line, what is the most misunderstood or misperceived issue about DevOps >> Yeah >> That you would like to see changed. >> Yeah, so to us, the one issue that we always emphasize is there will be a Dev and there will be an Ops. And any product that tries to minimize one role or another is not a good fit for enterprises. So, what's needed is a transformation of that Ops role to the role, from just being the direct service provider, the hands-on ops person to more of a governance curation. In some ways an architect type of role, right? And that's what we're seeing, is that Ops role is not diminished. It's actually heightened and highlighted. >> John Furrier: Great point! >> We've already talked about it in 6many respects, the idea that we're going to go from application development to pushing a button and having the business suddenly run differently is just silly. At the end of the day-- >> You think people think that's what DevOps is? Just a magical, rub the bottom and the genie pops out. >> There is a lot of people that think that DevOps is a step on the path to no Ops. To having no people involved in operations at all. And that's just not going to happen. >> So you believe that Ops is still going to be relevant. >> I think Ops is always going to be relevant. I think that Dev is going to evolve to better understand, and have greater data and visibility on what's going on in Ops. And Ops going to have greater predictability in what's going to happen from a development standpoint. So I think we will see a combination of roles. We'll see the productivity of Ops continue to grow. But the idea that this is going to be, that there is magic in here, and Gandalf is going to wave his DevOps-- >> What would Trump say about DevOps? Oh we're great at it! I've done it 10 times! >> What would Trump say? Trump would say, I think Trump would say, "I've never been to Mexico." (laughing) >> I'm going to make it amazing. We'll build a wall of IT. (laughing) I needed to bring that in, sorry, laughing about Trump earlier with the whole thing going on. Okay. Good point. Some are saying in the community, not no Ops, but new Ops. It's a new kind of Ops. >> Yeah, the way we see it is that what we think of as DevOps is splitting more into functions like application operations, security operations, and infrastructure. So really all three need to be accommodated and they need to work together. And that's sort of how we have built up Nirmata as our private software. >> And there is ops for all three of them. In fact, the last conversation we had John was, and test you on this, is that, it is the inherent quality, or the inherent distributed quality of a lot of the new applications that we're building. Absolutely dictates that we start to parse Ops up differently. >> Jim Bugwadia: Right. >> That it's no longer running it on a single machine or on a single database with a network out in a client server domain. It is inherently distributed and therefore the tasks and the responsibilities and roles associated with the operations side of that are themselves going to be inherently distributed. Which requires new ways of thinking, new conventions, and new tools. >> Jim, I want to give you a final word. Give a plug about your company. Thanks for sharing your insight by the way. Appreciate you answering the questions. What do you guys do and what's up with the company? Talk about the status, the employees, how much funding you have, how much revenue you have, what's your goals. Go lay it all out. >> Yeah, so myself, my other co-founders, our background is enterprise software and we come from a network management background where we build centralized management systems for complex networks, distributed devices, etc. What we saw happening is with cloud applications are starting to mimic that complexity. And as applications move from back-office productivity functions to these hybrid distributed mission-critical, real-life functions that we use day-to-day, there is a need for this enterprise-grade management. So that's the type of centralized management we're delivering as a service to our customers. >> You have to become network of provides so you have to have app management. I mean that's pretty much what you're doing you're bringing network management paradigm to apps versus a monolithic app in some dashboard and now it's all over the place. Multiple form factors, access methods. It's a network in the app. >> It is. Yeah and today the customers are left to cobble together about 12 to 14 different tools correlate data across tools. And what we need to do is move beyond systems with just observe and report. To being able to observe, react and learn, and do things in real-time. >> John: Be actionable. >> Exactly! >> So you guys are simplifying that process. >> Jim Bugwadia: Absolutely. >> And is it a single pane of glass, is it a service, is it a software product? >> It's a cloud service. So you can think of us an overlay across any public or private cloud. And early on, we kind of decided, the best way to deliver infrastructure is as a service and we've learned that in real life. >> People who are doing that are winning. That's what Trump would say, winning. (laughing) He would say, I am going to the data lake swamp. >> Who knows what he'd say. (laughing) >> Of course I couldn't get that in there. Drain the swamp, he didn't get the data lake swamp. >> No I got it. >> Okay, go ahead. >> So we've built Nirmata completely as a cloud service because of that philosophy that we started with. And we want to give developers and DevOps teams the choice of any platform, right? And today it's all about cloud. The edge is also very real. We have industrial IoT customers who are looking at containers. >> Yes, your world is getting your TAM, your total customer market is getting bigger and bigger as every IoT device has data on it. Because data is an asset. It's part of the app. >> I want to bring that up. Just if we have just a second John. >> Yeah go ahead. >> I'm curious because on of the things that we believe is that increasingly the whole concept of digital business is how will data feature as an asset in your business? Especially if we're creating sustaining customers. Totally buy in to the idea of the external view versus the internal view. For customers versus for employees. That for customer side, the engagement side is really driving a lot of this. But at some point in time it makes me wonder if we're going to move from a DevOps orientation to a data ops orientation. Where at the end of the day, the physics of how things run is, where is the data, what saliency to get at it, how do you handle the state of it, etc. Do you foresee a... at least, or an extension of the DevOps concept so the data as an object is something that we act upon, and we understand what role it plays in this whole bringing together a lot of piece parts to create distributed digital systems. >> I think so. Starting point of that, that we're seeing is the split between data services and behavioral services. Look, any form of programming it's all about packaging behaviors and data, right? So whether it's in a programming language, and with object-oriented it was about putting things together in a object. Now with service oriented in microservices, it's the service bound rates. So having the data services and then having the behavioral services separated gives a lot of flexibility. And then being able to move the compute to the data versus the other way around that is also very interesting. So we're working with some partners where we're looking at cross cloud data. Can we, as even services in containers are spun up under one cloud. Can we clone an entire environment into another cloud. Can we migrate some of the data efficiently? Challenges like that. >> Well Jim, we're going to recruit you. I just made a note to ping you for tomorrow's CrowdChat. To see if you could make it or one of your co-founders. Love to get your input at the community as part of sharing insight into this really fast growing, changing world of management with all this complexity. I mean there are more tools out there than ever before. They are all different types, a lot of complexity. So we hope to bring you back in the studio, or have you come in via Skype, or CrowdChat. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. Cisco's inaugural event, DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (electronic music) Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director of strategy and planning for--