(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE." We've got great two remote guests coming into our Palo Alto Studios, some tech athletes, as we say, people that've been in the trenches, years of experience, Lena Smart, CISO at MongoDB, Cube alumni, and Tara Hernandez, VP of Developer Productivity at MongoDB as well. Thanks for coming in to this program and supporting our efforts today. Thanks so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, everyone talk about the journey in tech, where it all started. Before we get there, talk about what you guys are doing at MongoDB specifically. MongoDB is kind of gone the next level as a platform. You have your own ecosystem, lot of developers, very technical crowd, but it's changing the business transformation. What do you guys do at Mongo? We'll start with you, Lena. >> So I'm the CISO, so all security goes through me. I like to say, well, I don't like to say, I'm described as the ones throat to choke. So anything to do with security basically starts and ends with me. We do have a fantastic Cloud engineering security team and a product security team, and they don't report directly to me, but obviously we have very close relationships. I like to keep that kind of church and state separate and I know I've spoken about that before. And we just recently set up a physical security team with an amazing gentleman who left the FBI and he came to join us after 26 years for the agency. So, really starting to look at the physical aspects of what we offer as well. >> I interviewed a CISO the other day and she said, "Every day is day zero for me." Kind of goofing on the Amazon Day one thing, but Tara, go ahead. Tara, go ahead. What's your role there, developer productivity? What are you focusing on? >> Sure. Developer productivity is kind of the latest description for things that we've described over the years as, you know, DevOps oriented engineering or platform engineering or build and release engineering development infrastructure. It's all part and parcel, which is how do we actually get our code from developer to customer, you know, and all the mechanics that go into that. It's been something I discovered from my first job way back in the early '90s at Borland. And the art has just evolved enormously ever since, so. >> Yeah, this is a very great conversation both of you guys, right in the middle of all the action and data infrastructures changing, exploding, and involving big time AI and data tsunami and security never stops. Well, let's get into, we'll talk about that later, but let's get into what motivated you guys to pursue a career in tech and what were some of the challenges that you faced along the way? >> I'll go first. The fact of the matter was I intended to be a double major in history and literature when I went off to university, but I was informed that I had to do a math or a science degree or else the university would not be paid for. At the time, UC Santa Cruz had a policy that called Open Access Computing. This is, you know, the late '80s, early '90s. And anybody at the university could get an email account and that was unusual at the time if you were, those of us who remember, you used to have to pay for that CompuServe or AOL or, there's another one, I forget what it was called, but if a student at Santa Cruz could have an email account. And because of that email account, I met people who were computer science majors and I'm like, "Okay, I'll try that." That seems good. And it was a little bit of a struggle for me, a lot I won't lie, but I can't complain with how it ended up. And certainly once I found my niche, which was development infrastructure, I found my true love and I've been doing it for almost 30 years now. >> Awesome. Great story. Can't wait to ask a few questions on that. We'll go back to that late '80s, early '90s. Lena, your journey, how you got into it. >> So slightly different start. I did not go to university. I had to leave school when I was 16, got a job, had to help support my family. Worked a bunch of various jobs till I was about 21 and then computers became more, I think, I wouldn't say they were ubiquitous, but they were certainly out there. And I'd also been saving up every penny I could earn to buy my own computer and bought an Amstrad 1640, 20 meg hard drive. It rocked. And kind of took that apart, put it back together again, and thought that could be money in this. And so basically just teaching myself about computers any job that I got. 'Cause most of my jobs were like clerical work and secretary at that point. But any job that had a computer in front of that, I would make it my business to go find the guy who did computing 'cause it was always a guy. And I would say, you know, I want to learn how these work. Let, you know, show me. And, you know, I would take my lunch hour and after work and anytime I could with these people and they were very kind with their time and I just kept learning, so yep. >> Yeah, those early days remind me of the inflection point we're going through now. This major C change coming. Back then, if you had a computer, you had to kind of be your own internal engineer to fix things. Remember back on the systems revolution, late '80s, Tara, when, you know, your career started, those were major inflection points. Now we're seeing a similar wave right now, security, infrastructure. It feels like it's going to a whole nother level. At Mongo, you guys certainly see this as well, with this AI surge coming in. A lot more action is coming in. And so there's a lot of parallels between these inflection points. How do you guys see this next wave of change? Obviously, the AI stuff's blowing everyone away. Oh, new user interface. It's been called the browser moment, the mobile iPhone moment, kind of for this generation. There's a lot of people out there who are watching that are young in their careers, what's your take on this? How would you talk to those folks around how important this wave is? >> It, you know, it's funny, I've been having this conversation quite a bit recently in part because, you know, to me AI in a lot of ways is very similar to, you know, back in the '90s when we were talking about bringing in the worldwide web to the forefront of the world, right. And we tended to think in terms of all the optimistic benefits that would come of it. You know, free passing of information, availability to anyone, anywhere. You just needed an internet connection, which back then of course meant a modem. >> John: Not everyone had though. >> Exactly. But what we found in the subsequent years is that human beings are what they are and we bring ourselves to whatever platforms that are there, right. And so, you know, as much as it was amazing to have this freely available HTML based internet experience, it also meant that the negatives came to the forefront quite quickly. And there were ramifications of that. And so to me, when I look at AI, we're already seeing the ramifications to that. Yes, are there these amazing, optimistic, wonderful things that can be done? Yes. >> Yeah. >> But we're also human and the bad stuff's going to come out too. And how do we- >> Yeah. >> How do we as an industry, as a community, you know, understand and mitigate those ramifications so that we can benefit more from the positive than the negative. So it is interesting that it comes kind of full circle in really interesting ways. >> Yeah. The underbelly takes place first, gets it in the early adopter mode. Normally industries with, you know, money involved arbitrage, no standards. But we've seen this movie before. Is there hope, Lena, that we can have a more secure environment? >> I would hope so. (Lena laughs) Although depressingly, we've been in this well for 30 years now and we're, at the end of the day, still telling people not to click links on emails. So yeah, that kind of still keeps me awake at night a wee bit. The whole thing about AI, I mean, it's, obviously I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination in AI. I did read (indistinct) book recently about AI and that was kind of interesting. And I'm just trying to teach myself as much as I can about it to the extent of even buying the "Dummies Guide to AI." Just because, it's actually not a dummies guide. It's actually fairly interesting, but I'm always thinking about it from a security standpoint. So it's kind of my worst nightmare and the best thing that could ever happen in the same dream. You know, you've got this technology where I can ask it a question and you know, it spits out generally a reasonable answer. And my team are working on with Mark Porter our CTO and his team on almost like an incubation of AI link. What would it look like from MongoDB? What's the legal ramifications? 'Cause there will be legal ramifications even though it's the wild, wild west just now, I think. Regulation's going to catch up to us pretty quickly, I would think. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> And so I think, you know, as long as companies have a seat at the table and governments perhaps don't become too dictatorial over this, then hopefully we'll be in a good place. But we'll see. I think it's a really interest, there's that curse, we're living in interesting times. I think that's where we are. >> It's interesting just to stay on this tech trend for a minute. The standards bodies are different now. Back in the old days there were, you know, IEEE standards, ITF standards. >> Tara: TPC. >> The developers are the new standard. I mean, now you're seeing open source completely different where it was in the '90s to here beginning, that was gen one, some say gen two, but I say gen one, now we're exploding with open source. You have kind of developers setting the standards. If developers like it in droves, it becomes defacto, which then kind of rolls into implementation. >> Yeah, I mean I think if you don't have developer input, and this is why I love working with Tara and her team so much is 'cause they get it. If we don't have input from developers, it's not going to get used. There's going to be ways of of working around it, especially when it comes to security. If they don't, you know, if you're a developer and you're sat at your screen and you don't want to do that particular thing, you're going to find a way around it. You're a smart person. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Developers on the front lines now versus, even back in the '90s, they're like, "Okay, consider the dev's, got a QA team." Everything was Waterfall, now it's Cloud, and developers are on the front lines of everything. Tara, I mean, this is where the standards are being met. What's your reaction to that? >> Well, I think it's outstanding. I mean, you know, like I was at Netscape and part of the crowd that released the browser as open source and we founded mozilla.org, right. And that was, you know, in many ways kind of the birth of the modern open source movement beyond what we used to have, what was basically free software foundation was sort of the only game in town. And I think it is so incredibly valuable. I want to emphasize, you know, and pile onto what Lena was saying, it's not just that the developers are having input on a sort of company by company basis. Open source to me is like a checks and balance, where it allows us as a broader community to be able to agree on and enforce certain standards in order to try and keep the technology platforms as accessible as possible. I think Kubernetes is a great example of that, right. If we didn't have Kubernetes, that would've really changed the nature of how we think about container orchestration. But even before that, Linux, right. Linux allowed us as an industry to end the Unix Wars and as someone who was on the front lines of that as well and having to support 42 different operating systems with our product, you know, that was a huge win. And it allowed us to stop arguing about operating systems and start arguing about software or not arguing, but developing it in positive ways. So with, you know, with Kubernetes, with container orchestration, we all agree, okay, that's just how we're going to orchestrate. Now we can build up this huge ecosystem, everybody gets taken along, right. And now it changes the game for what we're defining as business differentials, right. And so when we talk about crypto, that's a little bit harder, but certainly with AI, right, you know, what are the checks and balances that as an industry and as the developers around this, that we can in, you know, enforce to make sure that no one company or no one body is able to overly control how these things are managed, how it's defined. And I think that is only for the benefit in the industry as a whole, particularly when we think about the only other option is it gets regulated in ways that do not involve the people who actually know the details of what they're talking about. >> Regulated and or thrown away or bankrupt or- >> Driven underground. >> Yeah. >> Which would be even worse actually. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting, the checks and balances. I love that call out. And I was just talking with another interview part of the series around women being represented in the 51% ratio. Software is for everybody. So that we believe that open source movement around the collective intelligence of the participants in the industry and independent of gender, this is going to be the next wave. You're starting to see these videos really have impact because there are a lot more leaders now at the table in companies developing software systems and with AI, the aperture increases for applications. And this is the new dynamic. What's your guys view on this dynamic? How does this go forward in a positive way? Is there a certain trajectory you see? For women in the industry? >> I mean, I think some of the states are trying to, again, from the government angle, some of the states are trying to force women into the boardroom, for example, California, which can be no bad thing, but I don't know, sometimes I feel a bit iffy about all this kind of forced- >> John: Yeah. >> You know, making, I don't even know how to say it properly so you can cut this part of the interview. (John laughs) >> Tara: Well, and I think that they're >> I'll say it's not organic. >> No, and I think they're already pulling it out, right. It's already been challenged so they're in the process- >> Well, this is the open source angle, Tara, you are getting at it. The change agent is open, right? So to me, the history of the proven model is openness drives transparency drives progress. >> No, it's- >> If you believe that to be true, this could have another impact. >> Yeah, it's so interesting, right. Because if you look at McKinsey Consulting or Boston Consulting or some of the other, I'm blocking on all of the names. There has been a decade or more of research that shows that a non homogeneous employee base, be it gender or ethnicity or whatever, generates more revenue, right? There's dollar signs that can be attached to this, but it's not enough for all companies to want to invest in that way. And it's not enough for all, you know, venture firms or investment firms to grant that seed money or do those seed rounds. I think it's getting better very slowly, but socialization is a much harder thing to overcome over time. Particularly, when you're not just talking about one country like the United States in our case, but around the world. You know, tech centers now exist all over the world, including places that even 10 years ago we might not have expected like Nairobi, right. Which I think is amazing, but you have to factor in the cultural implications of that as well, right. So yes, the openness is important and we have, it's important that we have those voices, but I don't think it's a panacea solution, right. It's just one more piece. I think honestly that one of the most important opportunities has been with Cloud computing and Cloud's been around for a while. So why would I say that? It's because if you think about like everybody holds up the Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, back in the '70s, or Sergey and Larry for Google, you know, you had to have access to enough credit card limit to go to Fry's and buy your servers and then access to somebody like Susan Wojcicki to borrow the garage or whatever. But there was still a certain amount of upfrontness that you had to be able to commit to, whereas now, and we've, I think, seen a really good evidence of this being able to lease server resources by the second and have development platforms that you can do on your phone. I mean, for a while I think Africa, that the majority of development happened on mobile devices because there wasn't a sufficient supply chain of laptops yet. And that's no longer true now as far as I know. But like the power that that enables for people who would otherwise be underrepresented in our industry instantly opens it up, right? And so to me that's I think probably the biggest opportunity that we've seen from an industry on how to make more availability in underrepresented representation for entrepreneurship. >> Yeah. >> Something like AI, I think that's actually going to take us backwards if we're not careful. >> Yeah. >> Because of we're reinforcing that socialization. >> Well, also the bias. A lot of people commenting on the biases of the large language inherently built in are also problem. Lena, I want you to weigh on this too, because I think the skills question comes up here and I've been advocating that you don't need the pedigree, college pedigree, to get into a certain jobs, you mentioned Cloud computing. I mean, it's been around for you think a long time, but not really, really think about it. The ability to level up, okay, if you're going to join something new and half the jobs in cybersecurity are created in the past year, right? So, you have this what used to be a barrier, your degree, your pedigree, your certification would take years, would be a blocker. Now that's gone. >> Lena: Yeah, it's the opposite. >> That's, in fact, psychology. >> I think so, but the people who I, by and large, who I interview for jobs, they have, I think security people and also I work with our compliance folks and I can't forget them, but let's talk about security just now. I've always found a particular kind of mindset with security folks. We're very curious, not very good at following rules a lot of the time, and we'd love to teach others. I mean, that's one of the big things stem from the start of my career. People were always interested in teaching and I was interested in learning. So it was perfect. And I think also having, you know, strong women leaders at MongoDB allows other underrepresented groups to actually apply to the company 'cause they see that we're kind of talking the talk. And that's been important. I think it's really important. You know, you've got Tara and I on here today. There's obviously other senior women at MongoDB that you can talk to as well. There's a bunch of us. There's not a whole ton of us, but there's a bunch of us. And it's good. It's definitely growing. I've been there for four years now and I've seen a growth in women in senior leadership positions. And I think having that kind of track record of getting really good quality underrepresented candidates to not just interview, but come and join us, it's seen. And it's seen in the industry and people take notice and they're like, "Oh, okay, well if that person's working, you know, if Tara Hernandez is working there, I'm going to apply for that." And that in itself I think can really, you know, reap the rewards. But it's getting started. It's like how do you get your first strong female into that position or your first strong underrepresented person into that position? It's hard. I get it. If it was easy, we would've sold already. >> It's like anything. I want to see people like me, my friends in there. Am I going to be alone? Am I going to be of a group? It's a group psychology. Why wouldn't? So getting it out there is key. Is there skills that you think that people should pay attention to? One's come up as curiosity, learning. What are some of the best practices for folks trying to get into the tech field or that's in the tech field and advancing through? What advice are you guys- >> I mean, yeah, definitely, what I say to my team is within my budget, we try and give every at least one training course a year. And there's so much free stuff out there as well. But, you know, keep learning. And even if it's not right in your wheelhouse, don't pick about it. Don't, you know, take a look at what else could be out there that could interest you and then go for it. You know, what does it take you few minutes each night to read a book on something that might change your entire career? You know, be enthusiastic about the opportunities out there. And there's so many opportunities in security. Just so many. >> Tara, what's your advice for folks out there? Tons of stuff to taste, taste test, try things. >> Absolutely. I mean, I always say, you know, my primary qualifications for people, I'm looking for them to be smart and motivated, right. Because the industry changes so quickly. What we're doing now versus what we did even last year versus five years ago, you know, is completely different though themes are certainly the same. You know, we still have to code and we still have to compile that code or package the code and ship the code so, you know, how well can we adapt to these new things instead of creating floppy disks, which was my first job. Five and a quarters, even. The big ones. >> That's old school, OG. There it is. Well done. >> And now it's, you know, containers, you know, (indistinct) image containers. And so, you know, I've gotten a lot of really great success hiring boot campers, you know, career transitioners. Because they bring a lot experience in addition to the technical skills. I think the most important thing is to experiment and figuring out what do you like, because, you know, maybe you are really into security or maybe you're really into like deep level coding and you want to go back, you know, try to go to school to get a degree where you would actually want that level of learning. Or maybe you're a front end engineer, you want to be full stacked. Like there's so many different things, data science, right. Maybe you want to go learn R right. You know, I think it's like figure out what you like because once you find that, that in turn is going to energize you 'cause you're going to feel motivated. I think the worst thing you could do is try to force yourself to learn something that you really could not care less about. That's just the worst. You're going in handicapped. >> Yeah and there's choices now versus when we were breaking into the business. It was like, okay, you software engineer. They call it software engineering, that's all it was. You were that or you were in sales. Like, you know, some sort of systems engineer or sales and now it's,- >> I had never heard of my job when I was in school, right. I didn't even know it was a possibility. But there's so many different types of technical roles, you know, absolutely. >> It's so exciting. I wish I was young again. >> One of the- >> Me too. (Lena laughs) >> I don't. I like the age I am. So one of the things that I did to kind of harness that curiosity is we've set up a security champions programs. About 120, I guess, volunteers globally. And these are people from all different backgrounds and all genders, diversity groups, underrepresented groups, we feel are now represented within this champions program. And people basically give up about an hour or two of their time each week, with their supervisors permission, and we basically teach them different things about security. And we've now had seven full-time people move from different areas within MongoDB into my team as a result of that program. So, you know, monetarily and time, yeah, saved us both. But also we're showing people that there is a path, you know, if you start off in Tara's team, for example, doing X, you join the champions program, you're like, "You know, I'd really like to get into red teaming. That would be so cool." If it fits, then we make that happen. And that has been really important for me, especially to give, you know, the women in the underrepresented groups within MongoDB just that window into something they might never have seen otherwise. >> That's a great common fit is fit matters. Also that getting access to what you fit is also access to either mentoring or sponsorship or some sort of, at least some navigation. Like what's out there and not being afraid to like, you know, just ask. >> Yeah, we just actually kicked off our big mentor program last week, so I'm the executive sponsor of that. I know Tara is part of it, which is fantastic. >> We'll put a plug in for it. Go ahead. >> Yeah, no, it's amazing. There's, gosh, I don't even know the numbers anymore, but there's a lot of people involved in this and so much so that we've had to set up mentoring groups rather than one-on-one. And I think it was 45% of the mentors are actually male, which is quite incredible for a program called Mentor Her. And then what we want to do in the future is actually create a program called Mentor Them so that it's not, you know, not just on the female and so that we can live other groups represented and, you know, kind of break down those groups a wee bit more and have some more granularity in the offering. >> Tara, talk about mentoring and sponsorship. Open source has been there for a long time. People help each other. It's community-oriented. What's your view of how to work with mentors and sponsors if someone's moving through ranks? >> You know, one of the things that was really interesting, unfortunately, in some of the earliest open source communities is there was a lot of pervasive misogyny to be perfectly honest. >> Yeah. >> And one of the important adaptations that we made as an open source community was the idea, an introduction of code of conducts. And so when I'm talking to women who are thinking about expanding their skills, I encourage them to join open source communities to have opportunity, even if they're not getting paid for it, you know, to develop their skills to work with people to get those code reviews, right. I'm like, "Whatever you join, make sure they have a code of conduct and a good leadership team. It's very important." And there are plenty, right. And then that idea has come into, you know, conferences now. So now conferences have codes of contact, if there are any good, and maybe not all of them, but most of them, right. And the ideas of expanding that idea of intentional healthy culture. >> John: Yeah. >> As a business goal and business differentiator. I mean, I won't lie, when I was recruited to come to MongoDB, the culture that I was able to discern through talking to people, in addition to seeing that there was actually women in senior leadership roles like Lena, like Kayla Nelson, that was a huge win. And so it just builds on momentum. And so now, you know, those of us who are in that are now representing. And so that kind of reinforces, but it's all ties together, right. As the open source world goes, particularly for a company like MongoDB, which has an open source product, you know, and our community builds. You know, it's a good thing to be mindful of for us, how we interact with the community and you know, because that could also become an opportunity for recruiting. >> John: Yeah. >> Right. So we, in addition to people who might become advocates on Mongo's behalf in their own company as a solution for themselves, so. >> You guys had great successful company and great leadership there. I mean, I can't tell you how many times someone's told me "MongoDB doesn't scale. It's going to be dead next year." I mean, I was going back 10 years. It's like, just keeps getting better and better. You guys do a great job. So it's so fun to see the success of developers. Really appreciate you guys coming on the program. Final question, what are you guys excited about to end the segment? We'll give you guys the last word. Lena will start with you and Tara, you can wrap us up. What are you excited about? >> I'm excited to see what this year brings. I think with ChatGPT and its copycats, I think it'll be a very interesting year when it comes to AI and always in the lookout for the authentic deep fakes that we see coming out. So just trying to make people aware that this is a real thing. It's not just pretend. And then of course, our old friend ransomware, let's see where that's going to go. >> John: Yeah. >> And let's see where we get to and just genuine hygiene and housekeeping when it comes to security. >> Excellent. Tara. >> Ah, well for us, you know, we're always constantly trying to up our game from a security perspective in the software development life cycle. But also, you know, what can we do? You know, one interesting application of AI that maybe Google doesn't like to talk about is it is really cool as an addendum to search and you know, how we might incorporate that as far as our learning environment and developer productivity, and how can we enable our developers to be more efficient, productive in their day-to-day work. So, I don't know, there's all kinds of opportunities that we're looking at for how we might improve that process here at MongoDB and then maybe be able to share it with the world. One of the things I love about working at MongoDB is we get to use our own products, right. And so being able to have this interesting document database in order to put information and then maybe apply some sort of AI to get it out again, is something that we may well be looking at, if not this year, then certainly in the coming year. >> Awesome. Lena Smart, the chief information security officer. Tara Hernandez, vice president developer of productivity from MongoDB. Thank you so much for sharing here on International Women's Day. We're going to do this quarterly every year. We're going to do it and then we're going to do quarterly updates. Thank you so much for being part of this program. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> The stampede to cloud and massive VC investments has led to the emergence of a new generation of object store based data lakes. And with them two important trends, actually three important trends. First, a new category that combines data lakes and data warehouses aka the lakehouse is emerged as a leading contender to be the data platform of the future. And this novelty touts the ability to address data engineering, data science, and data warehouse workloads on a single shared data platform. The other major trend we've seen is query engines and broader data fabric virtualization platforms have embraced NextGen data lakes as platforms for SQL centric business intelligence workloads, reducing, or somebody even claim eliminating the need for separate data warehouses. Pretty bold. However, cloud data warehouses have added complimentary technologies to bridge the gaps with lakehouses. And the third is many, if not most customers that are embracing the so-called data fabric or data mesh architectures. They're looking at data lakes as a fundamental component of their strategies, and they're trying to evolve them to be more capable, hence the interest in lakehouse, but at the same time, they don't want to, or can't abandon their data warehouse estate. As such we see a battle royale is brewing between cloud data warehouses and cloud lakehouses. Is it possible to do it all with one cloud center analytical data platform? Well, we're going to find out. My name is Dave Vellante and welcome to the data platform's power panel on theCUBE. Our next episode in a series where we gather some of the industry's top analysts to talk about one of our favorite topics, data. In today's session, we'll discuss trends, emerging options, and the trade offs of various approaches and we'll name names. Joining us today are Sanjeev Mohan, who's the principal at SanjMo, Tony Baers, principal at dbInsight. And Doug Henschen is the vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank guys. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So it's early June and we're gearing up with two major conferences, there's several database conferences, but two in particular that were very interested in, Snowflake Summit and Databricks Data and AI Summit. Doug let's start off with you and then Tony and Sanjeev, if you could kindly weigh in. Where did this all start, Doug? The notion of lakehouse. And let's talk about what exactly we mean by lakehouse. Go ahead. >> Yeah, well you nailed it in your intro. One platform to address BI data science, data engineering, fewer platforms, less cost, less complexity, very compelling. You can credit Databricks for coining the term lakehouse back in 2020, but it's really a much older idea. You can go back to Cloudera introducing their Impala database in 2012. That was a database on top of Hadoop. And indeed in that last decade, by the middle of that last decade, there were several SQL on Hadoop products, open standards like Apache Drill. And at the same time, the database vendors were trying to respond to this interest in machine learning and the data science. So they were adding SQL extensions, the likes Hudi and Vertical we're adding SQL extensions to support the data science. But then later in that decade with the shift to cloud and object storage, you saw the vendor shift to this whole cloud, and object storage idea. So you have in the database camp Snowflake introduce Snowpark to try to address the data science needs. They introduced that in 2020 and last year they announced support for Python. You also had Oracle, SAP jumped on this lakehouse idea last year, supporting both the lake and warehouse single vendor, not necessarily quite single platform. Google very recently also jumped on the bandwagon. And then you also mentioned, the SQL engine camp, the Dremios, the Ahanas, the Starbursts, really doing two things, a fabric for distributed access to many data sources, but also very firmly planning that idea that you can just have the lake and we'll help you do the BI workloads on that. And then of course, the data lake camp with the Databricks and Clouderas providing a warehouse style deployments on top of their lake platforms. >> Okay, thanks, Doug. I'd be remiss those of you who me know that I typically write my own intros. This time my colleagues fed me a lot of that material. So thank you. You guys make it easy. But Tony, give us your thoughts on this intro. >> Right. Well, I very much agree with both of you, which may not make for the most exciting television in terms of that it has been an evolution just like Doug said. I mean, for instance, just to give an example when Teradata bought AfterData was initially seen as a hardware platform play. In the end, it was basically, it was all those after functions that made a lot of sort of big data analytics accessible to SQL. (clears throat) And so what I really see just in a more simpler definition or functional definition, the data lakehouse is really an attempt by the data lake folks to make the data lake friendlier territory to the SQL folks, and also to get into friendly territory, to all the data stewards, who are basically concerned about the sprawl and the lack of control in governance in the data lake. So it's really kind of a continuing of an ongoing trend that being said, there's no action without counter action. And of course, at the other end of the spectrum, we also see a lot of the data warehouses starting to edit things like in database machine learning. So they're certainly not surrendering without a fight. Again, as Doug was mentioning, this has been part of a continual blending of platforms that we've seen over the years that we first saw in the Hadoop years with SQL on Hadoop and data warehouses starting to reach out to cloud storage or should say the HDFS and then with the cloud then going cloud native and therefore trying to break the silos down even further. >> Now, thank you. And Sanjeev, data lakes, when we first heard about them, there were such a compelling name, and then we realized all the problems associated with them. So pick it up from there. What would you add to Doug and Tony? >> I would say, these are excellent points that Doug and Tony have brought to light. The concept of lakehouse was going on to your point, Dave, a long time ago, long before the tone was invented. For example, in Uber, Uber was trying to do a mix of Hadoop and Vertical because what they really needed were transactional capabilities that Hadoop did not have. So they weren't calling it the lakehouse, they were using multiple technologies, but now they're able to collapse it into a single data store that we call lakehouse. Data lakes, excellent at batch processing large volumes of data, but they don't have the real time capabilities such as change data capture, doing inserts and updates. So this is why lakehouse has become so important because they give us these transactional capabilities. >> Great. So I'm interested, the name is great, lakehouse. The concept is powerful, but I get concerned that it's a lot of marketing hype behind it. So I want to examine that a bit deeper. How mature is the concept of lakehouse? Are there practical examples that really exist in the real world that are driving business results for practitioners? Tony, maybe you could kick that off. >> Well, put it this way. I think what's interesting is that both data lakes and data warehouse that each had to extend themselves. To believe the Databricks hype it's that this was just a natural extension of the data lake. In point of fact, Databricks had to go outside its core technology of Spark to make the lakehouse possible. And it's a very similar type of thing on the part with data warehouse folks, in terms of that they've had to go beyond SQL, In the case of Databricks. There have been a number of incremental improvements to Delta lake, to basically make the table format more performative, for instance. But the other thing, I think the most dramatic change in all that is in their SQL engine and they had to essentially pretty much abandon Spark SQL because it really, in off itself Spark SQL is essentially stop gap solution. And if they wanted to really address that crowd, they had to totally reinvent SQL or at least their SQL engine. And so Databricks SQL is not Spark SQL, it is not Spark, it's basically SQL that it's adapted to run in a Spark environment, but the underlying engine is C++, it's not scale or anything like that. So Databricks had to take a major detour outside of its core platform to do this. So to answer your question, this is not mature because these are all basically kind of, even though the idea of blending platforms has been going on for well over a decade, I would say that the current iteration is still fairly immature. And in the cloud, I could see a further evolution of this because if you think through cloud native architecture where you're essentially abstracting compute from data, there is no reason why, if let's say you are dealing with say, the same basically data targets say cloud storage, cloud object storage that you might not apportion the task to different compute engines. And so therefore you could have, for instance, let's say you're Google, you could have BigQuery, perform basically the types of the analytics, the SQL analytics that would be associated with the data warehouse and you could have BigQuery ML that does some in database machine learning, but at the same time for another part of the query, which might involve, let's say some deep learning, just for example, you might go out to let's say the serverless spark service or the data proc. And there's no reason why Google could not blend all those into a coherent offering that's basically all triggered through microservices. And I just gave Google as an example, if you could generalize that with all the other cloud or all the other third party vendors. So I think we're still very early in the game in terms of maturity of data lakehouses. >> Thanks, Tony. So Sanjeev, is this all hype? What are your thoughts? >> It's not hype, but completely agree. It's not mature yet. Lakehouses have still a lot of work to do, so what I'm now starting to see is that the world is dividing into two camps. On one hand, there are people who don't want to deal with the operational aspects of vast amounts of data. They are the ones who are going for BigQuery, Redshift, Snowflake, Synapse, and so on because they want the platform to handle all the data modeling, access control, performance enhancements, but these are trade off. If you go with these platforms, then you are giving up on vendor neutrality. On the other side are those who have engineering skills. They want the independence. In other words, they don't want vendor lock in. They want to transform their data into any number of use cases, especially data science, machine learning use case. What they want is agility via open file formats using any compute engine. So why do I say lakehouses are not mature? Well, cloud data warehouses they provide you an excellent user experience. That is the main reason why Snowflake took off. If you have thousands of cables, it takes minutes to get them started, uploaded into your warehouse and start experimentation. Table formats are far more resonating with the community than file formats. But once the cost goes up of cloud data warehouse, then the organization start exploring lakehouses. But the problem is lakehouses still need to do a lot of work on metadata. Apache Hive was a fantastic first attempt at it. Even today Apache Hive is still very strong, but it's all technical metadata and it has so many different restrictions. That's why we see Databricks is investing into something called Unity Catalog. Hopefully we'll hear more about Unity Catalog at the end of the month. But there's a second problem. I just want to mention, and that is lack of standards. All these open source vendors, they're running, what I call ego projects. You see on LinkedIn, they're constantly battling with each other, but end user doesn't care. End user wants a problem to be solved. They want to use Trino, Dremio, Spark from EMR, Databricks, Ahana, DaaS, Frink, Athena. But the problem is that we don't have common standards. >> Right. Thanks. So Doug, I worry sometimes. I mean, I look at the space, we've debated for years, best of breed versus the full suite. You see AWS with whatever, 12 different plus data stores and different APIs and primitives. You got Oracle putting everything into its database. It's actually done some interesting things with MySQL HeatWave, so maybe there's proof points there, but Snowflake really good at data warehouse, simplifying data warehouse. Databricks, really good at making lakehouses actually more functional. Can one platform do it all? >> Well in a word, I can't be best at breed at all things. I think the upshot of and cogen analysis from Sanjeev there, the database, the vendors coming out of the database tradition, they excel at the SQL. They're extending it into data science, but when it comes to unstructured data, data science, ML AI often a compromise, the data lake crowd, the Databricks and such. They've struggled to completely displace the data warehouse when it really gets to the tough SLAs, they acknowledge that there's still a role for the warehouse. Maybe you can size down the warehouse and offload some of the BI workloads and maybe and some of these SQL engines, good for ad hoc, minimize data movement. But really when you get to the deep service level, a requirement, the high concurrency, the high query workloads, you end up creating something that's warehouse like. >> Where do you guys think this market is headed? What's going to take hold? Which projects are going to fade away? You got some things in Apache projects like Hudi and Iceberg, where do they fit Sanjeev? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> So thank you, Dave. So I feel that table formats are starting to mature. There is a lot of work that's being done. We will not have a single product or single platform. We'll have a mixture. So I see a lot of Apache Iceberg in the news. Apache Iceberg is really innovating. Their focus is on a table format, but then Delta and Apache Hudi are doing a lot of deep engineering work. For example, how do you handle high concurrency when there are multiple rights going on? Do you version your Parquet files or how do you do your upcerts basically? So different focus, at the end of the day, the end user will decide what is the right platform, but we are going to have multiple formats living with us for a long time. >> Doug is Iceberg in your view, something that's going to address some of those gaps in standards that Sanjeev was talking about earlier? >> Yeah, Delta lake, Hudi, Iceberg, they all address this need for consistency and scalability, Delta lake open technically, but open for access. I don't hear about Delta lakes in any worlds, but Databricks, hearing a lot of buzz about Apache Iceberg. End users want an open performance standard. And most recently Google embraced Iceberg for its recent a big lake, their stab at having supporting both lakes and warehouses on one conjoined platform. >> And Tony, of course, you remember the early days of the sort of big data movement you had MapR was the most closed. You had Horton works the most open. You had Cloudera in between. There was always this kind of contest as to who's the most open. Does that matter? Are we going to see a repeat of that here? >> I think it's spheres of influence, I think, and Doug very much was kind of referring to this. I would call it kind of like the MongoDB syndrome, which is that you have... and I'm talking about MongoDB before they changed their license, open source project, but very much associated with MongoDB, which basically, pretty much controlled most of the contributions made decisions. And I think Databricks has the same iron cloud hold on Delta lake, but still the market is pretty much associated Delta lake as the Databricks, open source project. I mean, Iceberg is probably further advanced than Hudi in terms of mind share. And so what I see that's breaking down to is essentially, basically the Databricks open source versus the everything else open source, the community open source. So I see it's a very similar type of breakdown that I see repeating itself here. >> So by the way, Mongo has a conference next week, another data platform is kind of not really relevant to this discussion totally. But in the sense it is because there's a lot of discussion on earnings calls these last couple of weeks about consumption and who's exposed, obviously people are concerned about Snowflake's consumption model. Mongo is maybe less exposed because Atlas is prominent in the portfolio, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to bring up the little bit of controversy that we saw come out of the Snowflake earnings call, where the ever core analyst asked Frank Klutman about discretionary spend. And Frank basically said, look, we're not discretionary. We are deeply operationalized. Whereas he kind of poo-pooed the lakehouse or the data lake, et cetera, saying, oh yeah, data scientists will pull files out and play with them. That's really not our business. Do any of you have comments on that? Help us swing through that controversy. Who wants to take that one? >> Let's put it this way. The SQL folks are from Venus and the data scientists are from Mars. So it means it really comes down to it, sort that type of perception. The fact is, is that, traditionally with analytics, it was very SQL oriented and that basically the quants were kind of off in their corner, where they're using SaaS or where they're using Teradata. It's really a great leveler today, which is that, I mean basic Python it's become arguably one of the most popular programming languages, depending on what month you're looking at, at the title index. And of course, obviously SQL is, as I tell the MongoDB folks, SQL is not going away. You have a large skills base out there. And so basically I see this breaking down to essentially, you're going to have each group that's going to have its own natural preferences for its home turf. And the fact that basically, let's say the Python and scale of folks are using Databricks does not make them any less operational or machine critical than the SQL folks. >> Anybody else want to chime in on that one? >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. Python support in Snowflake is very nascent with all of Snowpark, all of the things outside of SQL, they're very much relying on partners too and make things possible and make data science possible. And it's very early days. I think the bottom line, what we're going to see is each of these camps is going to keep working on doing better at the thing that they don't do today, or they're new to, but they're not going to nail it. They're not going to be best of breed on both sides. So the SQL centric companies and shops are going to do more data science on their database centric platform. That data science driven companies might be doing more BI on their leagues with those vendors and the companies that have highly distributed data, they're going to add fabrics, and maybe offload more of their BI onto those engines, like Dremio and Starburst. >> So I've asked you this before, but I'll ask you Sanjeev. 'Cause Snowflake and Databricks are such great examples 'cause you have the data engineering crowd trying to go into data warehousing and you have the data warehousing guys trying to go into the lake territory. Snowflake has $5 billion in the balance sheet and I've asked you before, I ask you again, doesn't there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds? Does Snowflake go out and do M&A and maybe buy ad scale or a data mirror? Or is that just sort of a bandaid? What are your thoughts on that Sanjeev? >> I think semantic layer is the metadata. The business metadata is extremely important. At the end of the day, the business folks, they'd rather go to the business metadata than have to figure out, for example, like let's say, I want to update somebody's email address and we have a lot of overhead with data residency laws and all that. I want my platform to give me the business metadata so I can write my business logic without having to worry about which database, which location. So having that semantic layer is extremely important. In fact, now we are taking it to the next level. Now we are saying that it's not just a semantic layer, it's all my KPIs, all my calculations. So how can I make those calculations independent of the compute engine, independent of the BI tool and make them fungible. So more disaggregation of the stack, but it gives us more best of breed products that the customers have to worry about. >> So I want to ask you about the stack, the modern data stack, if you will. And we always talk about injecting machine intelligence, AI into applications, making them more data driven. But when you look at the application development stack, it's separate, the database is tends to be separate from the data and analytics stack. Do those two worlds have to come together in the modern data world? And what does that look like organizationally? >> So organizationally even technically I think it is starting to happen. Microservices architecture was a first attempt to bring the application and the data world together, but they are fundamentally different things. For example, if an application crashes, that's horrible, but Kubernetes will self heal and it'll bring the application back up. But if a database crashes and corrupts your data, we have a huge problem. So that's why they have traditionally been two different stacks. They are starting to come together, especially with data ops, for instance, versioning of the way we write business logic. It used to be, a business logic was highly embedded into our database of choice, but now we are disaggregating that using GitHub, CICD the whole DevOps tool chain. So data is catching up to the way applications are. >> We also have databases, that trans analytical databases that's a little bit of what the story is with MongoDB next week with adding more analytical capabilities. But I think companies that talk about that are always careful to couch it as operational analytics, not the warehouse level workloads. So we're making progress, but I think there's always going to be, or there will long be a separate analytical data platform. >> Until data mesh takes over. (all laughing) Not opening a can of worms. >> Well, but wait, I know it's out of scope here, but wouldn't data mesh say, hey, do take your best of breed to Doug's earlier point. You can't be best of breed at everything, wouldn't data mesh advocate, data lakes do your data lake thing, data warehouse, do your data lake, then you're just a node on the mesh. (Tony laughs) Now you need separate data stores and you need separate teams. >> To my point. >> I think, I mean, put it this way. (laughs) Data mesh itself is a logical view of the world. The data mesh is not necessarily on the lake or on the warehouse. I think for me, the fear there is more in terms of, the silos of governance that could happen and the silo views of the world, how we redefine. And that's why and I want to go back to something what Sanjeev said, which is that it's going to be raising the importance of the semantic layer. Now does Snowflake that opens a couple of Pandora's boxes here, which is one, does Snowflake dare go into that space or do they risk basically alienating basically their partner ecosystem, which is a key part of their whole appeal, which is best of breed. They're kind of the same situation that Informatica was where in the early 2000s, when Informatica briefly flirted with analytic applications and realized that was not a good idea, need to redouble down on their core, which was data integration. The other thing though, that raises the importance of and this is where the best of breed comes in, is the data fabric. My contention is that and whether you use employee data mesh practice or not, if you do employee data mesh, you need data fabric. If you deploy data fabric, you don't necessarily need to practice data mesh. But data fabric at its core and admittedly it's a category that's still very poorly defined and evolving, but at its core, we're talking about a common meta data back plane, something that we used to talk about with master data management, this would be something that would be more what I would say basically, mutable, that would be more evolving, basically using, let's say, machine learning to kind of, so that we don't have to predefine rules or predefine what the world looks like. But so I think in the long run, what this really means is that whichever way we implement on whichever physical platform we implement, we need to all be speaking the same metadata language. And I think at the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a lake, warehouse or a lakehouse, we need common metadata. >> Doug, can I come back to something you pointed out? That those talking about bringing analytic and transaction databases together, you had talked about operationalizing those and the caution there. Educate me on MySQL HeatWave. I was surprised when Oracle put so much effort in that, and you may or may not be familiar with it, but a lot of folks have talked about that. Now it's got nowhere in the market, that no market share, but a lot of we've seen these benchmarks from Oracle. How real is that bringing together those two worlds and eliminating ETL? >> Yeah, I have to defer on that one. That's my colleague, Holger Mueller. He wrote the report on that. He's way deep on it and I'm not going to mock him. >> I wonder if that is something, how real that is or if it's just Oracle marketing, anybody have any thoughts on that? >> I'm pretty familiar with HeatWave. It's essentially Oracle doing what, I mean, there's kind of a parallel with what Google's doing with AlloyDB. It's an operational database that will have some embedded analytics. And it's also something which I expect to start seeing with MongoDB. And I think basically, Doug and Sanjeev were kind of referring to this before about basically kind of like the operational analytics, that are basically embedded within an operational database. The idea here is that the last thing you want to do with an operational database is slow it down. So you're not going to be doing very complex deep learning or anything like that, but you might be doing things like classification, you might be doing some predictives. In other words, we've just concluded a transaction with this customer, but was it less than what we were expecting? What does that mean in terms of, is this customer likely to turn? I think we're going to be seeing a lot of that. And I think that's what a lot of what MySQL HeatWave is all about. Whether Oracle has any presence in the market now it's still a pretty new announcement, but the other thing that kind of goes against Oracle, (laughs) that they had to battle against is that even though they own MySQL and run the open source project, everybody else, in terms of the actual commercial implementation it's associated with everybody else. And the popular perception has been that MySQL has been basically kind of like a sidelight for Oracle. And so it's on Oracles shoulders to prove that they're damn serious about it. >> There's no coincidence that MariaDB was launched the day that Oracle acquired Sun. Sanjeev, I wonder if we could come back to a topic that we discussed earlier, which is this notion of consumption, obviously Wall Street's very concerned about it. Snowflake dropped prices last week. I've always felt like, hey, the consumption model is the right model. I can dial it down in when I need to, of course, the street freaks out. What are your thoughts on just pricing, the consumption model? What's the right model for companies, for customers? >> Consumption model is here to stay. What I would like to see, and I think is an ideal situation and actually plays into the lakehouse concept is that, I have my data in some open format, maybe it's Parquet or CSV or JSON, Avro, and I can bring whatever engine is the best engine for my workloads, bring it on, pay for consumption, and then shut it down. And by the way, that could be Cloudera. We don't talk about Cloudera very much, but it could be one business unit wants to use Athena. Another business unit wants to use some other Trino let's say or Dremio. So every business unit is working on the same data set, see that's critical, but that data set is maybe in their VPC and they bring any compute engine, you pay for the use, shut it down. That then you're getting value and you're only paying for consumption. It's not like, I left a cluster running by mistake, so there have to be guardrails. The reason FinOps is so big is because it's very easy for me to run a Cartesian joint in the cloud and get a $10,000 bill. >> This looks like it's been a sort of a victim of its own success in some ways, they made it so easy to spin up single note instances, multi note instances. And back in the day when compute was scarce and costly, those database engines optimized every last bit so they could get as much workload as possible out of every instance. Today, it's really easy to spin up a new node, a new multi node cluster. So that freedom has meant many more nodes that aren't necessarily getting that utilization. So Snowflake has been doing a lot to add reporting, monitoring, dashboards around the utilization of all the nodes and multi node instances that have spun up. And meanwhile, we're seeing some of the traditional on-prem databases that are moving into the cloud, trying to offer that freedom. And I think they're going to have that same discovery that the cost surprises are going to follow as they make it easy to spin up new instances. >> Yeah, a lot of money went into this market over the last decade, separating compute from storage, moving to the cloud. I'm glad you mentioned Cloudera Sanjeev, 'cause they got it all started, the kind of big data movement. We don't talk about them that much. Sometimes I wonder if it's because when they merged Hortonworks and Cloudera, they dead ended both platforms, but then they did invest in a more modern platform. But what's the future of Cloudera? What are you seeing out there? >> Cloudera has a good product. I have to say the problem in our space is that there're way too many companies, there's way too much noise. We are expecting the end users to parse it out or we expecting analyst firms to boil it down. So I think marketing becomes a big problem. As far as technology is concerned, I think Cloudera did turn their selves around and Tony, I know you, you talked to them quite frequently. I think they have quite a comprehensive offering for a long time actually. They've created Kudu, so they got operational, they have Hadoop, they have an operational data warehouse, they're migrated to the cloud. They are in hybrid multi-cloud environment. Lot of cloud data warehouses are not hybrid. They're only in the cloud. >> Right. I think what Cloudera has done the most successful has been in the transition to the cloud and the fact that they're giving their customers more OnRamps to it, more hybrid OnRamps. So I give them a lot of credit there. They're also have been trying to position themselves as being the most price friendly in terms of that we will put more guardrails and governors on it. I mean, part of that could be spin. But on the other hand, they don't have the same vested interest in compute cycles as say, AWS would have with EMR. That being said, yes, Cloudera does it, I think its most powerful appeal so of that, it almost sounds in a way, I don't want to cast them as a legacy system. But the fact is they do have a huge landed legacy on-prem and still significant potential to land and expand that to the cloud. That being said, even though Cloudera is multifunction, I think it certainly has its strengths and weaknesses. And the fact this is that yes, Cloudera has an operational database or an operational data store with a kind of like the outgrowth of age base, but Cloudera is still based, primarily known for the deep analytics, the operational database nobody's going to buy Cloudera or Cloudera data platform strictly for the operational database. They may use it as an add-on, just in the same way that a lot of customers have used let's say Teradata basically to do some machine learning or let's say, Snowflake to parse through JSON. Again, it's not an indictment or anything like that, but the fact is obviously they do have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think their greatest opportunity is with their existing base because that base has a lot invested and vested. And the fact is they do have a hybrid path that a lot of the others lack. >> And of course being on the quarterly shock clock was not a good place to be under the microscope for Cloudera and now they at least can refactor the business accordingly. I'm glad you mentioned hybrid too. We saw Snowflake last month, did a deal with Dell whereby non-native Snowflake data could access on-prem object store from Dell. They announced a similar thing with pure storage. What do you guys make of that? Is that just... How significant will that be? Will customers actually do that? I think they're using either materialized views or extended tables. >> There are data rated and residency requirements. There are desires to have these platforms in your own data center. And finally they capitulated, I mean, Frank Klutman is famous for saying to be very focused and earlier, not many months ago, they called the going on-prem as a distraction, but clearly there's enough demand and certainly government contracts any company that has data residency requirements, it's a real need. So they finally addressed it. >> Yeah, I'll bet dollars to donuts, there was an EBC session and some big customer said, if you don't do this, we ain't doing business with you. And that was like, okay, we'll do it. >> So Dave, I have to say, earlier on you had brought this point, how Frank Klutman was poo-pooing data science workloads. On your show, about a year or so ago, he said, we are never going to on-prem. He burnt that bridge. (Tony laughs) That was on your show. >> I remember exactly the statement because it was interesting. He said, we're never going to do the halfway house. And I think what he meant is we're not going to bring the Snowflake architecture to run on-prem because it defeats the elasticity of the cloud. So this was kind of a capitulation in a way. But I think it still preserves his original intent sort of, I don't know. >> The point here is that every vendor will poo-poo whatever they don't have until they do have it. >> Yes. >> And then it'd be like, oh, we are all in, we've always been doing this. We have always supported this and now we are doing it better than others. >> Look, it was the same type of shock wave that we felt basically when AWS at the last moment at one of their reinvents, oh, by the way, we're going to introduce outposts. And the analyst group is typically pre briefed about a week or two ahead under NDA and that was not part of it. And when they dropped, they just casually dropped that in the analyst session. It's like, you could have heard the sound of lots of analysts changing their diapers at that point. >> (laughs) I remember that. And a props to Andy Jassy who once, many times actually told us, never say never when it comes to AWS. So guys, I know we got to run. We got some hard stops. Maybe you could each give us your final thoughts, Doug start us off and then-- >> Sure. Well, we've got the Snowflake Summit coming up. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing data science, that are really employing Python through Snowflake, through Snowpark. And then a couple weeks later, we've got Databricks with their Data and AI Summit in San Francisco. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing considerable BI workloads. Last year I did a market overview of this analytical data platform space, 14 vendors, eight of them claim to support lakehouse, both sides of the camp, Databricks customer had 32, their top customer that they could site was unnamed. It had 32 concurrent users doing 15,000 queries per hour. That's good but it's not up to the most demanding BI SQL workloads. And they acknowledged that and said, they need to keep working that. Snowflake asked for their biggest data science customer, they cited Kabura, 400 terabytes, 8,500 users, 400,000 data engineering jobs per day. I took the data engineering job to be probably SQL centric, ETL style transformation work. So I want to see the real use of the Python, how much Snowpark has grown as a way to support data science. >> Great. Tony. >> Actually of all things. And certainly, I'll also be looking for similar things in what Doug is saying, but I think sort of like, kind of out of left field, I'm interested to see what MongoDB is going to start to say about operational analytics, 'cause I mean, they're into this conquer the world strategy. We can be all things to all people. Okay, if that's the case, what's going to be a case with basically, putting in some inline analytics, what are you going to be doing with your query engine? So that's actually kind of an interesting thing we're looking for next week. >> Great. Sanjeev. >> So I'll be at MongoDB world, Snowflake and Databricks and very interested in seeing, but since Tony brought up MongoDB, I see that even the databases are shifting tremendously. They are addressing both the hashtag use case online, transactional and analytical. I'm also seeing that these databases started in, let's say in case of MySQL HeatWave, as relational or in MongoDB as document, but now they've added graph, they've added time series, they've added geospatial and they just keep adding more and more data structures and really making these databases multifunctional. So very interesting. >> It gets back to our discussion of best of breed, versus all in one. And it's likely Mongo's path or part of their strategy of course, is through developers. They're very developer focused. So we'll be looking for that. And guys, I'll be there as well. I'm hoping that we maybe have some extra time on theCUBE, so please stop by and we can maybe chat a little bit. Guys as always, fantastic. Thank you so much, Doug, Tony, Sanjeev, and let's do this again. >> It's been a pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and the excellent analyst. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hello, and welcome back to the cubes coverage of ADFS reinvent 2020 it's virtual this year because of the pandemic we can't be in person normally would do in these interviews face to face, but we're here remote. I'm your host, John furrier. We're the cube virtual and we're here with Teresa Carlson, who is the chief and heads up the public sector business, uh, for AWS and also now has industries, which is a lot of the verticals and just continues to, um, have great leadership and continues to do well in the business. I Theresa great to see you for the eighth consecutive cube interview you've been on every year and we thank you for coming on big year this year. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. >>Thank you, John. Thank you for having me. It's hard to believe it's eight years already. Wow, go ahead. >>Well, first of all, I want to say congratulations. Um, the first year you will run, you never wavered. You always had a North star. Um, you had the Amazonia and kind of way, um, you told us what you were going to do and you did it. The CIA came on board and the dots just connected. So congratulations this year more than ever, um, during your keynote. And re-invent, even though it was virtual, um, again, you're raising the bar on the theme leadership and making use of the data two major themes this year on your keynote because of the pandemic. And just because of the cloud computing benefits are all kind of coming together. You're helping more people than ever doing a more public service with cloud when it needs it. The most. This has been a big story. Share your, your reaction to that. >>Yeah. Well, John, thank you again for having me in your coverage of reinvent. It's been three weeks of, wow. I mean, three weeks we do one hour a day three, uh, that COVID, you know, we're still, we're still not dead, right? The vaccinations are out. People are starting to, I saw on the television yesterday here in the U S the first nurse that was vaccinated. Uh, but for us, I will tell you the data side of this piece during COVID has been huge. I mean, huge. It has been, you know, our customers have always said data is golden for them, right. Uh, but during COVID, we have actually seen the use of data, just go up like crazy and not just the use of it, but, um, I will say it's multiple data lakes that are used hydrating multiple data lakes and using that data to merge. >>So if you think about economic data and health data and putting those data sets together in a way that they have deeper understanding of what's happening within their community, their state, their, their, uh, their country. So we've seen emerging of data, uh, in a big way. If you think about the vaccinations themselves, uh, John, that wouldn't have been possible to move this fast without the use of scalable compute, processing and analytics in a way like no one has ever seen it. And, uh, it's, it's, it's pretty amazing. And I don't think we'll ever go back. And also I'll just say sharing of that data has changed. Researchers are now much more open to sharing that data air cord 19 a research site that we've done has thousands of researchers on it. Now, hundreds of thousands of views on it with people sharing research about COVID and think about that. I mean, research has always been held tightly, and now we're really starting to see them open up and share that data so that we can move much faster. >>I think doing that public service with the data has always been a killer idea. We talked about national parks being kind of open for the people over the years now, super computing and data. You guys do a great job doing that, but the other area that you're getting a lot of press on and, and rightfully so is an area that I know is close to your heart, as well as our mission, which is getting people trained up on cloud computing. And you've done this for years, but this year more importantly, with all the pressure and all the need, you guys have offered, offering a huge training skills training for 29 million people globally. I saw that on the news, I saw you on doing some TV interviews on this. It's been all over the press has been getting a lot of great buzz. Can you tell me more about what that is? >>Yeah. So part of my, when I picked up bear industry business units also picked up our training and certification organization that is ran by Maureen Lonergan. I know you've had Maureen on your show before too, and then I have education, which is run by Kimma Jarris in the U S and max, uh, Peterson internationally. And we are now we've merged so that we have a model that we can teach and train around the world in a much more scalable way that this announcement was about going into 200 Kemp countries and territories training, 29 million people by 2025 free do free skills training and making that available job through multiple different programs and scaling those. So we'll take the programs we have and we'll scale those app much more rapidly. And then now we'll also look for new programs that we need to run in parallel because that's what we do. >>We have to look around corners. Also make sure that we have the right programs and, you know, I've lived, I've lived, you know, they're all amazing, but near and dear to my heart has always been our AWS educate, which we started, uh, for ages 14 and up to at the university and high school level, to be able to start to bring on those cloud skills. Then we added badging and credentialing onto that. And from there, you can go into the air Academy, which you can actually get certifications as a solution architect. Uh, but we've, we've added so many more, uh, our program restart now, which has been really, which is about training. Those who are jobless or an underserved communities and socioeconomic depressed areas. Uh, and I love that program. I told a story about an individual in Boston who had opened a training center, a gym he's a fitness trainer, and he had to close it, uh, because you know, COVID, and he went through our 12 week. >>We restart training program and now has a job with a company there in Boston. And I just love those kind of stories where you know, that you're putting people to work. And I think for us, there's thousands and thousands of jobs around the world, just in any city, if you, if you search on cloud computing jobs open, I just looked in New York when I was on CNBC. I looked in New York and there are 10,000 cloud jobs just there in New York. And I just did a quick search. So there's always jobs, and we've got to make sure that we're skilling them so they can go now fill those jobs. And that will help us close that gap. Uh, John, which we still have a big one, uh, to get all the jobs filled that are out there. >>That's a great mission. And I got to say, it's super important because one is cloud computing. There's openings for this kind of new, the new paradigm, which is now mainstream and playing out on, in real time, as, as Andy was talking about, but also the global it markets being reshaped by cloud computing. So you have the intersection of those two, which is a new skill. You can't just take it and make a cloud. You've got to bring it together. So it's a great opportunity for someone to come into the industry and level up pretty quickly. You don't have to have the 20 years of experience to do this. It's you can come in instantly level up, have a great job. >>You know, it's the one thing John, I hear all the time around the world before from like when I would go and speak with university chancellors and presidents and just professors, they would say, Hey, you know, AWS, we need you to do the micro-credentialing along the way. And this was pre COVID when they said, we need to get your students want to work while they're in school. Well now more than ever, it's important. And we also, John Luke, just in September, over 800,000 women left the workplace. That is a trend that we do not want and we can not sustain. And so doing, you know, doing programs like this virtually that you can do self paced environments, intensive environments. We want to make, we want to make these programs fit for whatever the individual needs. So it's not just a one size fits all. We want to make sure that the programs that we're providing will fit the needs of the individuals doing the training. And I, I particularly am, uh, I want to push this with their, you know, inclusion and diversity of the individuals that we need to get into the workplace, but it is pretty alarming when you see that many women leaving the workplace, you know, when a choice is being made right now, we're seeing women take the brunt of that. And we want to make sure that they have the opportunity to work virtually train themselves and get those new jobs that are out in tech. >>Well, that's one of the questions I had for you. I'll just jump to that. Now I'll get back to some of the other ones, but the customers that pivot to remote work and learning, uh, it's changing. And, you know, I was, um, riffing on an interview. Um, I think it was with one of your public sector customers, the future of work. And if you just think about the word work workforce, workplace workload work flows, the notion of work is now impacted. And you mentioned the diversity piece. This is an opportunity. So how should people think about this, uh, relearning? So we don't lose people and we actually get a net positive inbound migration to the workforce. >>You know, the flexibility I had, I did a fireside chat with Andrew Nooney. Um, he was the former CEO of PepsiCo and chairman, and is now on our Amazon board, uh, for re-invent. And she talked about, you know, being your authentic self, uh, curiosity, but one of her big points is women in the workplace. Uh, and she's gonna publish a new book soon, and it's going to be really focused on kind of equity policy, uh, areas of need that we have to focus on to make sure that we have at women being able to tackle both the home issues and being able to work and taking advantage of that plus 50%. And I would say the virtual opportunity is really fantastic, especially for, um, all levels of socioeconomic individuals, because you can work part-time full-time, you can work virtually. And I do believe while we all want to get back into the workplace. >>I think for me, I'm a social animal. I'd love to be there sitting beside you, John, you know, I think for a lot of us, we are, we kind of yearn to be back in the office, but there's also a lot that working from home, um, is, is much more achievable for them, right? Especially with childcare if school day, if it's a short day, because the schools and allowing flexibility with work is going to be really important and COVID has taught us that that is possible. My team did not miss a beat during COVID. I tell ya, it's like unbelievable. Our business, uh, has, has really kinda been on fire because public sector. And if you look at the other industries, I've picked up financial services, uh, energy and telecommunications and training and certification. These are all that had to keep going. Uh, governments were moving faster than ever. >>So our team was really busy. Um, I've had individuals asked me, well, how did you manage the downtowns? Like we didn't have any downtime. Like literally day one, we were like 24 seven and the teams were working with it pretty much every government around the world because COVID moved so quickly and all virtually. And I will have to say, John, I was really skeptical in the beginning about how is this? How, how are we going to do this? Um, but the teams really, we figured out how to operate. You know, you had to, it's a new muscle. You kind of have to build that virtual work muscle and figure out how you manage your day, how you fit things in. And then there's the point that people think you're always available because you are at home, right? So you can never, that you can't possibly not be available because you know, you're, you are sitting at home. And then there's the many times where people's cats walk across and kind of with their tail on their face. And that dog child were at REMS in with the diaper. And you know, it's all, you, you have to have grace and humor about all this. Sometimes T like you can't take everything so seriously. And perhaps we've learned that, um, work and life can blend a little bit more, right? That you can, you can have that when a lot of people, when they talk about work-life balance, now we have work-life harmony. >>You know, you and I have talked about this before. If you can tap whoever taps, the diversity of talent will always let me win the game and not just, um, diversity in terms of gender or background role. I mean, if you can tap the virtual space, you're a winner because there's talent out there that can be aggregated in, and there's no stigma associated with anything. So, you know, this is, I think Andy kinda, uh, expressed that to me. And, and he heard it in his keynote where he said, Hey, people are a square, but you can get more participation. I think that is a real positive, um, upside. And I love the perspective of this new muscle. I totally agree. You need to, you need to have that >>Square. I mean, we've, we've actually chatted. I don't know if we'll ever go back to having big rooms with people in it, because you have a voice, you have a face. And I do believe, especially for women, uh, John, who can not always speak up, it's an opportunity for them to have their own space. They ha they can have their own voice. All individuals cause centers. They have great ideas, but they don't always value them. So having, you know, when you, each person has their own square, you can actually kind of see, well, who's, who's has an opinion. Who's spoken up. Who, who do I want to call on here and ask them if they have an opinion? So I like the idea of everybody having their own space when you're having a meeting. If you have to be virtual, because you get lost in translation, especially if you have that large leader in the room and everybody else's around them, then sometimes they only kind of adhere to their voice. This is an opportunity for others to really have that pool. >>I was just, I saw a joke on Twitter from a friend that said, Hey, I run all the meetings now because I can mute people. So if someone starts talking, you're muted bye-bye. So again, this is a whole new muscle great stuff. Well, since you've, since you brought up your role, I know you have a new expanded role. Could you take a minute to explain what that is? Because I'm still not clear. I know you've been doing an amazing job. I've written about, uh, your initial successes, and now you continue to do well with public sector and believe me, I've exploding. I see it. We're reporting on it. Public service is changing with digital transformation, but these other things, what are you working on? What are the new areas? Yeah, so I >>Just passed my 10th year. I'm starting my 11th year and it's been like amazing building this public sector business. I, I, and our government customers. Wow. The innovation and education during COVID has been pretty off the charts, which I don't think I'll slow down. And then a few months ago I was asked to take on our, uh, our training and certification org and our evangelist in solution architecture org, along with the industry business units of, uh, finance, telecommunications, and energy. And then, uh, John, if you remembering June, I announced our aerospace and satellite industry business unit. So, uh, these are the ones that we have right now are very regulated. A lot of them are, you know, very closely aligned to regulated industry. Um, you know, there could be others that are not as regulated, but the ones right now, if you think about aerospace, satellite, financial services, telecommunications in, in, in energy. >>So they, for me, um, they're very, it can tell a lot of the work I've been doing in building public sector, because when I go into a country today, when my teams go in, we generally always have to work with these groups. So if you think about telecommunications, we have to go in and make sure that we're working on our networking, our connectivity, and we negotiate and work with those telco providers. Same with the energy companies, both large ones and small ones. We go in and we work to build a power purchasing agreements, you know, solar power, uh, renewable energy to power our data centers and make sure that we're giving back to the grid. So we have that partnership. And then in the financial sector, I've had our, uh, I've had all of our regulators anyway, like FINRA fed reserve. Um, I R S treasury. >>So I've already, I've always had all the regulators. So now working with the, uh, you know, the additional, the banking, the investment sector, capital markets, it's very, it's, it seems so natural if that makes sense. And now diving into the upstream and downstream stream of supply chain for both that energy and telco and what a fantastic time now for telcos with 5g. I mean, I've been saying for two or three years that I thought this would be a huge opportunity for telecommunications companies to actually look for new, uh, work streams for their customers. And I mean, edge, you know, now our connect or call centers that they can do and take advantage of that. So I'm actually really excited. Uh, John seeing seven of new opportunities and, you know, renewable the new energy, uh, startups that are out there, the things I'm seeing, power, solar, nuclear, um, and then seeing a lot of the larger energy companies take on these projects. It's a lot of fun. And, um, I'm very excited now to continue to meet those customers. I got to meet a lot during re-invent. I love their energy. Yeah. I love kind of learning about what they're looking to solve. And, and I'm also just looking forward to helping them, um, with the connections that we've already been doing in government. I think it's a really nice combination of working together. Now. >>I, I see it as, um, what you've done with public sector was take a partnership approach to an old standing industry, changed them quickly, get the transformation, build the relationships, get the successes and establish that transformation and this needed versus the organically developing, you know, stuff. That's going to be the cloud startups and whatnot. Those are going to use Amazon, but you're a transformational leader. >>John, if I could just save for a minute, if you think about re-invention, you're at re-invent and a lot of these are going through massive reinvention, uh, you know, again, 5g with telco renewables, uh, with energy and then financial services where everything is kind of moving to an online model and digital model with different types of currencies that they have to deal with. It's, it's really perfect for cloud and what we offer. So I think the opportunity, um, to dive in and really partner with these industries and aerospace and Salado. Oh my gosh. It's just, I have to say, I really do believe cloud computing is, um, the perfect kind of step forward with all these industries for reinvention and innovation, which they're all moving towards. >>Well, Theresa, you're a re-invention leader. Uh, we've covered it. And now we've got all new territory for you to work on. Um, bring your playbook, you know, people-centric partner results are charging Theresa, thank you for your time. Great to have you on. Great to see you. Wish you, we were in person in real life again soon. Thank you for coming on. >>Yeah, John, thank you. Happy holidays. I look forward to seeing you next year. >>Okay. This is the cubes coverage of AWS reinvented. We have Teresa Carlson, she heads up the public sector. She's the chief of the whole public sector, and now taking on other industries to bring that playbook, the reinvention to the industries, really a big part of the Amazon web services, vision and cultural change. That's going on with the pandemic reach rechanging and reformatting and refactoring industries. That's what's going on in the big picture and a lot of gay tech under the hood. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello and welcome to thecube's coverage we're here hosting with cal poly an amazing event space in the intersection of cyber security this session is defending satellite and space infrastructure from cyber threats got two great guests we've got major general john shaw combined four space component commander u.s space command and vandenberg air force base in california and roland cuello who's the ceo of maverick space systems gentlemen thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the cal poly space and cyber security symposium appreciate it absolutely um guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain obviously it's a war warfighting domain it's also the future of the world and this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical everyone knows how their phones work and gps just small examples of all the impacts i'd like to discuss with this hour this topic with you guys so if we can have you guys do an opening statement general if you can start with your opening statement we'll take it from there thanks john and greetings from vandenberg air force base we are just down the road from cal poly here on the central coast of california and uh very proud to be part of this uh effort and part of the partnership that we have with with cal poly on a number of fronts um i should uh so in in my job here i actually uh have two hats that i wear and it's i think worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion you know we had two major organizational events within our department of defense with regard to space last year in 2019 and probably the one that made the most headlines was the stand-up of the united states space force that happened uh december 20th last year and again momentous the first new branch in our military since 1947 uh and uh it is a it's just over nine months old now as we're making this recording uh and already we're seeing a lot of change uh with regard to how we're approaching uh organizing training and equipping on a service side or space capabilities and so i uh in that with regard to the space force the hat i wear there is commander of space operations command that was what was once 14th air force when we were still part of the air force here at vandenberg and in that role i'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective didn't make quite as many headlines but another major change that happened last year was the uh the reincarnation i guess i would say of united states space command and that is a combatant command it's how our department of defense organizes to actually conduct warfighting operations um most people are more familiar perhaps with uh central command centcom or northern command northcom or even strategic command stratcom well now we have a space com we actually had one from 1985 until 2002 and then stood it down in the wake of the 9 11 attacks and a reorganization of homeland security but we've now stood up a separate command again operationally to conduct joint space operations and in that organization i wear a hat as a component commander and that's the combined force-based component command uh working with other all the additional capabilities that other services bring as well as our allies that combined in that title means that uh i under certain circumstances i would lead an allied effort uh in space operations and so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of california uh both working the uh how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the space force side and then how we actually operate those capabilities it's a point of joint in support of joint warfighters around the world um and and national security interests so that's the context now what el i i also should mention you kind of alluded to john you're beginning that we're kind of in a change situation than we were a number of years ago and that space we now see space as a warfighting domain for most of my career going back a little ways most of my my focus in my jobs was making sure i could bring space capabilities to those that needed them bringing gps to that special operations uh soldier on the ground somewhere in the world bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control bringing those capabilities for other uses but i didn't have to worry in most of my career about actually defending those space capabilities themselves well now we do we've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space we now are treating it more like any other domain normalizing in that regard as a warfighting domain and so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space to to design our capabilities to be defended and perhaps most of all to train our people for this new mission set so it's a very exciting time and i know we'll get into it but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe without talking about cyber because they fit together very closely so anyway thanks for the chance to be here today and i look forward to the discussion general thank you so much for that opening statement and i would just say that not only is it historic with the space force it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities for to do more and to do things differently so i appreciate that statement roland your opening statement your your job is to put stuff in space faster cheaper smaller better your opening statement please um yes um thank you john um and yes you know to um general shaw's point you know with with the space domain and the need to protect it now um is incredibly important and i hope that we are more of a help um than a thorn in your side um in terms of you know building satellites smaller faster cheaper um you know and um definitely looking forward to this discussion and you know figuring out ways where um the entire space domain can work together you know from industry to to us government even to the academic environment as well so first would like to say and preface this by saying i am not a cyber security expert um we you know we build satellites um and uh we launch them into orbit um but we are by no means you know cyber security experts and that's why um you know we like to partner with organizations like the california cyber security institute because they help us you know navigate these requirements um so um so i'm the ceo of um of maverick space systems we are a small aerospace business in san luis obispo california and we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers all the way from the academic environment to the us government and everything in between we support customers through an entire you know program life cycle from mission architecture and formulation all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit and so what we try to do is um provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate so whether it be reducing mass or volume um creating greater launch opportunities or providing um the infrastructure and the technology um to help those innovations you know mature in orbit you know that's you know that's what we do our team has experienced over the last 20 years working with small satellites and definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the cubesat standard by cal poly and stanford uh back in 2000 and so you know we are in you know vandenberg's backyard um we came from cal poly san luis obispo um and you know our um our hearts are fond you know of this area and working with the local community um a lot of that success um that we have had is directly attributable um to the experiences that we learned as students um working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors um you know that's you know all you know thanks to cal poly so just wanted to tell a quick story so you know back in 2000 just imagine a small group of undergraduate students you know myself included with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a russian launch vehicle um you know many of us were only 18 or 19 not even at the legal age to drink yet um but as you know essentially teenagers we're managing million dollar budgets um and we're coordinating groups um from around the world um and we knew that we knew what we needed to accomplish um yet we didn't really know um what we were doing when we first started um the university was extremely supportive um and you know that's the cal poly learn by doing philosophy um i remember you know the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel and we were discussing the need to to register with the state department for itar nobody really knew what itar was back then um and you know discussing this with the chief legal counsel um you know she was asking what is itar um and we essentially had to explain you know this is um launching satellites as part of the um the u.s munitions list and essentially we have a similar situation you know exporting munitions um you know we are in similar categories um you know as you know as weapons um and so you know after that initial shock um everybody jumped in you know both feet forward um the university um you know our head legal counsel professors mentors and the students um you know knew we needed to tackle this problem um because you know the the need was there um to launch these small satellites and um you know the the reason you know this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community um is that the technology and the you know innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels you know so we have academia commercial national governments we even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and you know building satellite hardware um and the thing is you know the the importance of cyber security is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches you know people um at a very young age um and so you know we hope to have a conversation today um to figure out you know how do we um create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive but we also you know protect and you know keep their data safe as well thank you very much roland appreciate that uh story too as well thanks for your opening statement gentlemen i mean i love this topic because defending the assets in space is is as obvious um you look at it but there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now and generally you kind of pointed out the historic nature of space force and how it's changing already operationally training skills tools all that stuff is revolving you know in the tech world that i live in you know change the world is a topic they use that's thrown around a lot you can change the world a lot of young people we have just other panels on this where we're talking about how to motivate young people changing the world is what it's all about with technology for the better evolution is just an extension of another domain in this case space is just an extension of other domains similar things are happening but it's different there's a huge opportunity to change the world so it's faster there's an expanded commercial landscape out there certainly government space systems are moving and changing how do we address the importance of cyber security in space general we'll start with you because this is real it's exciting if you're a young person there's touch points of things to jump into tech building hardware to changing laws and and everything in between is an opportunity and it's exciting and it's truly a chance to change the world how does the commercial government space systems teams address the importance of cyber security so john i think it starts with with the realization that as i like to say that cyber and space are bffs uh there's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavy reliant heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber and frankly there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application and when you realize that you see how how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at at speed it becomes fundamental to to the to answering your question let me give a couple examples we one of the biggest challenges i have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain those on the on the on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans across large land masses and i talk about the tyranny of volume and you know right now we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere there's activity that's extending out to the out there we expect nasa to be conducting uh perhaps uh human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years so it extends out that far when you do the math that's a huge volume how do you do that how do you understand what's happening in real time in within that volume it is a big data problem by the very definition of that that kind of effort to that kind of challenge and to do it successfully in the years ahead it's going to require many many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena and that's just if people are not up to mischief once you have threats introduced into that environment it is even more challenging so i'd say it's a big data problem that we'll be enjoying uh tackling in the years ahead a second example is you know we if i if i had to if we had to take a vote of what were the most uh amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans i think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list whether it's the nasa spacecraft that explore other planets or the ones that we or gps satellites that that amazingly uh provide a wonderful service to the entire globe uh and beyond they are amazing technological machines that's not going to stop i mean all the work that roland talked about at the at the even even that we're doing it at the kind of the microsoft level is is putting cutting-edge technology into smaller packages you can to get some sort of capability out of that as we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes or for exploration or commercial or civil the the cutting edge technologies of uh artificial intelligence uh and machine to machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward um and then there's the threat piece as we try to as we operate these these capabilities how these constellations grow that's going to be done via networks and as i've already pointed out space is a warfighting domain that means those networks will come under attack we expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict it may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time everywhere in many sectors of of activity and so by painting that picture you kind of get you we start to see how it's intertwined at the very very base most basic level the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space with that then comes the need to any cutting edge cyber security capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities and we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning we haven't done that in the past as well as we should but moving forward from this point on it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our new capability roland we're talking about now critical infrastructure we're talking about new capabilities being addressed really fast so it's kind of chaotic now there's threats so it's not as easy as just having capabilities because you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out but now you've got critical infrastructure which then will enable other things down down the line how do you protect it how do we address this how do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint because you know malware these techniques can be mapped in as extended into into space and takeovers wartime peacetime these things are all going to be under threat that's pretty well understood i think people kind of get that how do we address it what's your what's your take yeah you know absolutely and you know i couldn't agree more with general shaw you know with cyber security and space being so intertwined um and you know i think with fast and rapid innovation um comes you know the opportunity for threats especially um if you have bad actors um that you know want to cause harm and so you know as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds um you kind of have a common goal of um you know doing the best you can um and you know pushing the technology balance making it smaller faster cheaper um but a lot of times what entrepreneurs and you know small businesses and supply chains um are doing and don't realize it is a lot of these components are dual use right i mean you could have a very benign commercial application but then a small you know modification to it and turn it into a military application and if you do have these bad actors they can exploit that and so you know i think the the big thing is um creating a organization that is you know non-biased that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cyber security in space i think you know one group that would be perfect for that you know is um cci um you know they understand both the cybersecurity side of things and they also have you know at cal poly um you know the the small satellite group um and you know just having kind of a a clearinghouse or um an agency where um can provide information that is free um you know you don't need a membership for and to be able to kind of collect that but also you know reach out to the entire value chain you know for a mission and um making them aware um of you know what potential capabilities are and then how it might um be you know potentially used as a weapon um and you know keeping them informed because i think you know the the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing and so how do we get that information free flowing to you know to the us government so that they can take that information create assessments and be able to not necessarily um stop threats from occurring presently but identify them long before that they would ever even happen um yeah that's you know general i want to i want to follow up on that real quick before we go to the next talk track critical infrastructure um you mentioned you know across the oceans long distance volume you know when you look at the physical world you know you had you know power grids here united states you had geography you had perimeters uh the notion of a perimeter and the moat this is and then you had digital comes in then you have we saw software open up and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter and from a defense standpoint and that everything changed and we had to fortify those critical assets uh in the u.s space increases the same problem statement significantly because it's you can't just have a perimeter you can't have a moat it's open it's everywhere like what digital's done and that's why we've seen a slurge of cyber in the past two decades attacks with software so this isn't going to go away you need the critical infrastructure you're putting it up there you're formulating it and you've got to protect it how do you view that because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement what's the current thinking yeah i i think my sense is a mindset that you can build a a firewall or a defense or some other uh system that isn't dynamic in his own right is probably not heading in the right direction i think cyber security in the future whether it's for our space systems or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine um a speed and dynamic um i don't think it's too far off where we will have uh machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them and by the way the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing and so i i guess i would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough it's probably going to be a constantly evolving capability constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats that's the kind of use case just to kind of you know as you were kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors i mean i tell my young kids and everyone man it's more exciting now i wish i was 18 again it's so so exciting with ai bro i want to get your thoughts we were joking on another panel with the dod around space and the importance of it obviously and we're going to have that here and then we had a joke it's like oh software's defined everything it says software's everything ai and and i said well here in the united states companies had data centers and they went to the cloud and they said you can't do break fix it's hard to do break fix in space you can't just send a tech up i get that today but soon maybe robotics the general mentions robotics technologies and referencing some of the accomplishments fixing things is almost impossible in space but maybe form factors might get better certainly software will play a role what's your thoughts on that that landscape yeah absolutely you know for for software in orbit um you know there's there's a push for you know software-defined radios um to basically go from hardware to software um and you know that's that that's a critical link um if you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board you could you know take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc and so you know creating standards and you know that kind of um initial threshold of security um you know for let's say you know these radios you know communications and making that um available um to the entire supply chain to the satellite builders um and operators you know is incredibly key and you know that's again one of the initiatives that um that cci is um is tackling right now as well general i want to get your thoughts on best practices around cyber security um state of the art today uh and then some guiding principles and kind of how the if you shoot the trajectory forward what what might happen uh around um supply chain there's been many stories where oh we outsourced the chips and there's a little chip sitting in a thing and it's built by someone else in china and the software is written from someone in europe and the united states assembles it it gets shipped and it's it's corrupt and it has some cyber crime making i'm oversimplifying the the statement but this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property uh from multiple partners whether it's from software to creation and then deployment you get supply chain tiers what are some of the best practices that you see involving that don't stunt the innovation but continues to innovate but people can operate safely what's your thoughts yeah so on supply chain i think i think the symposium here is going to get to hear from lieutenant general jt thompson uh from space missile system center down in los angeles and and uh he's a he's just down the road from us there uh on the coast um and his team is is the one that we look to really focus on as he acquires and develop again bake in cyber security from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from and and properly assessing those as you as you put together your space systems is a key uh piece of what his team is focused on so i expect we'll hear him talk about that when it talks to i think she asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward well another way that we don't do it right is if we take a long time to build something and then you know general general jt thompson's folks take a while to build something and then they hand it over to to to me and my team to operate and then they go hands-free and and then and then that's you know that's what i have for for years to operate until the next thing comes along that's a little old school what we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go we actually have partnership between general thompson's team and mine here at vandenberg on our ops floor or our combined space operations center that are actually working in real time together better tools that we can use to understand what's going on the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications to space domain awareness sensors and such and so and we're developing those capabilities in real time it's a dev and and with the security pieces so devsecops is we're practicing that in in real time i think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve but it has to be done again in close partnership all the time it's not a sequential industrial age process while i'm on the subject of partnerships so general thompson's and team and mine have good partnerships it's part partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful and that uh it means with with academia in some of the relationships that we have here with cal poly it's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before the old style business was to work with just a few large um companies that had a lot of space experience well we need we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities and i expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of and and organizations being part of that partnership that will work going forward i mentioned at the beginning that um uh allies are important to us so everything that uh that role and i've been talking about i think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships right it doesn't help me uh as a combined force component commander which is again one of my jobs it doesn't help me if the united states capabilities are cyber secure but i'm trying to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cyber secure so that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together so again close partnering continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors with as many um different sectors of our economy uh as possible are the ingredients to success general i'd love to just follow up real quick i was having just a quick reminder for a conversation i had with last year with general keith alexander who was does a lot of cyber security work and he was talking about the need to share faster and the new school is you got to share faster and to get the data you mentioned observability earlier you need to see what everything's out there he's a real passionate person around getting the data getting it fast and having trusted partners so that's not it's kind of evolving as i mean sharing is a well-known practice but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially so there's a trust relationship there's now a new ecosystem that's new for uh government how do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber so it's i don't know if it's necessarily new but it's at a scale that we've never seen before and by the way it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective classification of data and information at various levels and then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors whether it's commercial academic or allies so it gets very very uh a complex web very quickly um so that's part of the challenge we're working through how can we how can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion it is certainly not optimal today it's it's very difficult even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that i could see a solution in the future where our cyber security is good enough that maybe i only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment um to uh to make that all happen as quickly as possible so you've actually uh john you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have is um is evolving our networks to properly share with the right people at the right uh clearance levels as at speed of war which is what we're going to need yeah and i wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity again this discussion here at cal poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems and um it's again it's super exciting if you you know you're geeking out on this it's if you have a tech degree or you're interested in changing the world there's so many new things that could be applied right now roland will get your thoughts on this because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing this is a massive shift all the theaters of the tech industry are are changing rapidly at the same time okay and it affects policy law but also deep tech the startup communities are super important in all this too we can't forget them obviously the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives but your story about being in the dorm room now you got the boardroom and now you got everything in between you have startups out there that want to and can contribute and you know what's an itar i mean i got all these acronym certifications is there a community motion to bring startups in in a safe way but also give them a ability to contribute because you look at open source that proved everyone wrong on software that's happening now with this now open network concept the general is kind of alluding to which is it's a changing landscape your thoughts i know you're passionate about this yeah absolutely you know and i think um you know as general shaw mentioned you know we need to get information out there faster more timely and to the right people um and involving not only just stakeholders in the us but um internationally as well you know and as entrepreneurs um you know we have this very lofty vision or goal uh to change the world and um oftentimes um you know entrepreneurs including myself you know we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can and we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching um you know other folks and in terms of a community i don't know of any formal community out there it's mostly ad hoc and you know these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say have you know was was a student working on a satellite um you know in college and they love that entrepreneurial spirit and so they said well i'm gonna start my own company and so you know a lot of the these ad hoc networks are just from relationships um that are that have been built over the last two decades um you know from from colleagues that you know at the university um i do think formalizing this and creating um kind of a you know clearinghouse to to handle all of this is incredibly important yeah um yeah there's gonna be a lot of entrepreneurial activity no doubt i mean just i mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time so i mean this brings up the question though while we're on this topic um you got the remote work with covid everyone's working remotely we're doing this remote um interview rather than being on stage works changing how people work and engage certainly physical will come back but if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent you know they're all clustered around the bases and there's always been these areas where you're you're a space person you're kind of working there and there's jobs there and if you were cyber you were 10 in other areas over the past decade there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location as you see the intersection of space general start with you you know first of all central coast is a great place to live i know that's where you guys live but you can start to bring together these two cultures sometimes they're you know not the same maybe they're getting better we know they're being integrated so general can you just share your thoughts because this is uh one of those topics that everyone's talking about but no one's actually kind of addressed directly um yeah john i i think so i think i want to answer this by talking about where i think the space force is going because i think if there was ever an opportunity or inflection point in our department of defense to sort of change culture and and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and and really kind of change uh maybe uh some of the ways that the department of defense has does things that are probably archaic space force is an inflection point for that uh general raymond our our chief of space operations has said publicly for a while now he wants the us space force to be the first truly digital service and uh you know what we what we mean by that is you know we want the folks that are in the space force to be the ones that are the first adopters or the early adopters of of technology um to be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge technological developments on space and cyber and and other um other sectors of the of of the of the economy that are technologically focused uh and i think there's some can that can generate some excitement i think and it means that we probably end up recruiting people into the space force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the department of defense looks to and i think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation um into the service that i think is frankly is is really exciting so if you put together everything i mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever and i think there's always been an excitement in them you know from the very beginning in the american psyche about space you start to put all these ingredients together and i think you see where i'm going with this that really changed that cultural uh mindset that you were describing it's an exciting time for sure and again changing the world and this is what you're seeing today people do want to change world they want a modern world that's changing roy look at your thoughts on this i was having an interview a few years back with a tech entrepreneur um techie and we were joking we were just kind of riffing and we and i said everything that's on star trek will be invented and we're almost there actually if you think about it except for the transporter room you got video you got communicators so you know not to bring in the star trek reference with space force this is digital and you start thinking about some of the important trends it's going to be up and down the stack from hardware to software to user experience everything your thoughts and reaction yeah abs absolutely and so you know what we're seeing is um timeline timelines shrinking dramatically um because of the barrier to entry for you know um new entrants and you know even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low right so if you take um previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit it would take years because you would test it on the ground you would verify that it can operate in space in a space environment and then you would go ahead and launch it and you know we're talking tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that now um we've cut that down from years to months when you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time because you're getting valuable data back and so you know we're seeing technology being developed you know for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months um and the whole kind of process um you know that that we're doing as a small business is you know trying to enable that and so allowing these entrepreneurs and small small companies to to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than you know testing on the ground you know this is a great point i think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier the economics and the business model of space is doable i mean you do a mission study you get paid for that you have technology you can get stuff up up quickly and there's a cost structure there and again the alternative was waterfall planning years and millions now the form factors are different now again there may be different payloads involved but you can standardize payloads you got robotic arms all this is all available this brings up the congestion problem this is going to be on the top of mind the generals of course but you got the proliferation okay of these constellation systems you have more and more tech vectors i mean essentially that's malware i mean that's a probe you throw something up in space that could cause some interference maybe a takeover general this is the this is the real elephant in the room the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations so general how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix so i i think the uh you know i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be a little more optimistic john than i think you pitched that i'm actually excited about these uh new mega constellations in leo um i'm excited about the the growing number of actors that are that are going into space for various reasons and why is that it's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine uh for the nation and for human society so the question is so so i think we want that to happen right when uh um when uh we could go to almost any any other domain in history and and and you know there when when air traffic air air travel started to become much much more commonplace with many kinds of uh actors from from private pilots flying their small planes all the way up to large airliners uh you know there there was a problem with congestion there was a problem about um challenges about uh behavior and are we gonna be able to manage this and yes we did and it was for the great benefit of society i could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things and so this is actually exciting about space we are just going to have to find the ways as a society and it's not just the department of defense it's going to be civil it's going to be international find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain i do think the space force uh will play a role in in providing security in the space environment as we venture further out as as economic opportunities emerge uh wherever they are um in the in the lunar earth lunar system or even within the solar system space force is going to play a role in that but i'm actually really excited about the those possibilities hey by the way i got to say you made me think of this when you talked about star trek and and and space force and our technologies i remember when i was younger watching the the next generation series i thought one of the coolest things because being a musician in my in my spare time i thought one of the coolest things was when um commander riker would walk into his quarters and and say computer play soft jazz and there would just be the computer would just play music you know and this was an age when you know we had we had hard uh um uh media right like how will that that is awesome man i can't wait for the 23rd century when i can do that and where we are today is is so incredible on those lines the things that i can ask alexa or siri to play um well that's the thing everything that's on star trek think about it almost invented i mean you got the computers you got the only thing really is the holograms are starting to come in you got now the transporter room now that's physics we'll work on that right right so there's a there is this uh a balance between physics and imagination but uh we have not exhausted either well um personally everyone that knows me knows i'm a huge star trek fan all the series of course i'm an original purist but at that level but this is about economic incentive as well roland i want to get your thoughts because you know the gloom and doom you got to think about the the bad stuff to make it good if i if i put my glass half full on the table there's economic incentives just like the example of the plane and the air traffic there's there's actors that are more actors that are incented to have a secure system what's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed absolutely so and you know one of the things that we've seen over the years um as you know we build these small satellites is a lot of the technology you know that the general is talking about um you know voice recognition miniaturized chips and sensors um started on the ground and i mean you know you have you know your iphone um that about 15 years ago before the first iphone came out um you know we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors um that we were putting in our satellites back then we didn't know if they were going to work and then um a few years later as these students graduate they go off and they go out to under you know other industries and so um some of the technology that was first kind of put in these cubesats in the early 2000s you know kind of ended up in the first generation iphone smartphones um and so being able to take that technology rapidly you know incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage because um not only are your costs going down um because you know you're mass producing you know these types of terrestrial technologies um but then you can also um you know increase you know revenue and profit um you know by by having you know smaller and cheaper systems general let's talk about that for real quickly it's a good point i want to just shift it into the playbook i mean everyone talks about playbooks for management for tech for startups for success i mean one of the playbooks that's clear from in history is investment in r d around military and or innovation that has a long view spurs innovation commercially i mean just there's a huge many decades of history that shows that hey we got to start thinking about these these challenges and you know next you know it's in an iphone this is history this is not like a one-off and now with space force you get you're driving you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital you know we we riff about star trek which is fun but the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new cool mind-blowing things could you share your thoughts on how you sell that people who write the checks or recruit more talent well so i first i totally agree with your thesis that the that you know national security well could probably go back an awful long way hundreds to thousands of years that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity because um you know i think the the probably the two things that drive drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money uh but only by beating that out are trying to stay alive um and uh and so i don't think that's going to go away and i do think that space force can play a role um as it pursues uh security uh structures you know within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes are going to be at the cutting edge this isn't the first time um i think we can point back to the origins of the internet really started in the department of defense and with a partnership i should add with academia that's how the internet got started that was the creativity in order to to meet some needs there cryptography has its roots in security but we use it uh in in national security but now we use it in for economic reasons and meant and a host of other kinds of reasons and then space itself right i mean we still look back to uh apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to to either begin careers in in technical areas or in space and and so on so i think i think in that same spirit you're absolutely right i guess i'm totally agreeing with your thesis the space force uh will be and a uh will have a positive inspirational influence in that way and we need to to realize that so when we are asking for when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs we need to spread that net very far look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that that can that can work on those when you're on the new frontier you've got to have a team sport it's a team effort you mentioned the internet just anecdotally i'm old enough to remember this because i remember the days that was going on and said the government if the policy decisions that the u.s made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand they didn't try to commercialize it too fast and but there was some policy work that was done that had a direct effect to the innovation versus take it over and next you know it's out of control so i think you know i think this this just a cross-disciplinary skill set becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved and that's one of the big themes of this symposium so it's a great point thank you for sharing that roland your thoughts on this because you know you got policy decisions we all want to run faster we want to be more innovative but you got to have some ops view now mostly ops people want things very tight very buttoned up secure the innovators want to go faster it's the yin and yang that's that's the world we live in how's it all balanced in your mind yeah um you know one of the things um that may not be apparently obvious is that you know the us government and department of um of defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector um you know they're not the traditional venture capitalists but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding um you know and when companies see that the us governments is interested in something businesses will will re-vector um you know to provide that capability and in the i would say the more recent years we've had a huge influx of private equity venture capital um coming into the markets to kind of help augment um you know the government investment and i think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity venture capitalists and the us government is incredibly important because the two sides you know can can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal but then also too on um you know the other side is you know there's that human element um and as general shaw was saying it's like not you know not only do companies you know obviously want to thrive and do really well some companies just want to stay alive um to see their technology kind of you know grow into what they've always dreamed of and you know oftentimes entrepreneurs um are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll they have to you know keep the lights on and so sometimes they'll take investment um from places where they may normally would not have you know from potentially foreign investment that could potentially you know cause issues with you know the you know the us supply chain well my final question is the best i wanted to say for last because i love the idea of human space flight i'd love to be on mars i'm not sure i'll be able to make it someday but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cyber security on expanding human space flight operations i mean general this is your wheelhouse this is urine command putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go because they're not human but humans in space i mean you're starting to see the momentum the discussion uh people are are scratching that itch what's your take on that how do we see making this more possible well i i think we will see we will see uh commercial space tourism uh in the future i'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become but we'll we will see that and um part of uh i think the mission of the space force is going to be probably to again do what we're doing today is have really good awareness of what's going on the domain to uh to to to ensure that that is done safely and i think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety uh in in that uh arena um and uh um it is only a matter of time uh before we see um humans going even beyond the you know nasa has their plan the the artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a a space station there and that's going to be an exploration initiative but it is only a matter of time before we have um private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism but for economic activity and so it'll be really exciting to watch it would be really exciting and space force will be a part of it general roland i want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium i really appreciate it final uh comment i'd love to you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cyber security to space and we'll close it out we'll start with you roland yeah so i think that the biggest thing um i would like to try to get out of this you know from my own personal perspective is um creating that environment that allows um you know the the aerospace supply chain small businesses you know like ourselves be able to meet all the requirements um to protect um and safeguard our data but also um create a way that you know we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation um you know i'm looking forward um to comments and questions um you know from the audience um to really kind of help um you know you know basically drive to that next step general final thoughts the importance of cyber security to space i'll just i'll go back to how i started i think john and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined they're bffs and whoever has my job 50 years from now or 100 years from now i predict they're going to be saying the exact same thing cyber and space are are intertwined for good we will always need the cutting edge cyber security capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a as a society to protect our space capabilities and our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well general john shaw thank you very much roland cleo thank you very much for your great insight thank you to cal poly for putting this together i want to shout out to the team over there we couldn't be in person but we're doing a virtual remote event i'm john furrier with thecube and siliconangle here in silicon valley thanks for watching

>> Voiceover: Live! From Anahiem, California, it's theCUBE. Covering Nutanix.next 2019 Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix.next, here in Anaheim California, I'm your host, Rebecca Knight along with my co-host John Furrier. We're joined by Sunil Potti, he is the chief product and development officer here at Nutanix. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Glad to be here. >> So we are talking about the era of invisible infrastructure and this morning on the main stage there was many many different announcements, new products and adjustments, augmentations to products. Can you walk our viewers a little bit, walk our viewers through a little bit what you were talking about today? >> Yeah, I mean (inaudible) so in fact, our vision really hasn't materially changed over the last few years. In fact, my team always teases me that all I do is essentially change the timeline but the same slideshow is up. But you know, something about vision being consistent and we sort of have broken that up into two major phases, the first phase is essentially to move cloud from being a destination to being an experience. What do I mean by that? Essentially, everyone knows about cloud as being something served by Amazon, or Google, or (inaudible) and ultimately, our belief has been that if we do an honest job of what Amazon or Google provided natively But bring cloud to the customers rather than having the customers go to a destination, Then they can essentially get maybe 60 or 70 percent of that experience but maybe at a tenth of the price or a tenth of the time. And most human beings as you guys know, is that once you get 60 or 70 percent, You're happy and you move on other things. And that's really the first act of this company is to sort of bring cloud to the customers. And in doing so, in my opinion solves one of clouds biggest, you know, perennial issues, which is migration. Because that's essentially what lift and shift, gets in the way, that I've gotta change something that I've invested 20 years in and I've gotta lift and shift it. And if something comes to you, that gap is dramatically reduced, right? And sure, we don't do everything that public clouds do but, like I said, if you can do an honest job of that 60 % then it turns out that most customers now adopt Nutanix looking at public cloud as more of a tailwind instead of a headwind because the more they taste amazon outside the more they want amazon inside. And so, so, that's really the first act of the company. A series of products that allow us to build out a full blown IA stack but also a bunch of services such as desktops, databases, all the usual services. So it's all about increasing the layers of abstraction to the user so they can do one take operations. So, that's the first act. And the second act which is much more a longer term bet for the next decade or so is that if the first act was about bringing cloud to you to replatform the data center, customers are also going to redesign their apps and when they redesign their apps Do you want to do it on an operating system that locks you only into one public cloud? Or do you want to do it in something that can moves across clouds? And that's our second act of the company. And there's a lot of details there. >> John Furrier: So hyper-convergence was a great concept and proved it out, great customer base, core business is humming along, solid, but the growth is gonna come from essentials which is the enterprise in multiple clouds. So I get that. As you guys look and build those products and you're the chief product officer, you have the keys to the kingdom, it's all on you. >> It's in my guide to work out. >> So you're a team. But this is a big pressure, this is the opportunity. As you think about a software company as you guys are shifting from being hardware to software things start to be different so as you start thinking about the act two the convergence of clouds. That really is a key part of it, what you did for the data center, HCI, >> Yeah, totally. >> You're doing HCI for the cloud. >> Yeah, like what does that actually mean? >> So explain that concept. >> No, it's a great question. So, and some of this, obviously, we are struggling through ourselves. But we are not afraid of making mistakes in this transition as you've seen other the last year, we've gone from being in the plans company to a software that runs on third party to being a subscription company, to now running on clouds. All within a span of 12 months, while building a business, right? And sometimes it works, sometimes we pick up ourselves and learn from mistakes and go but to your point I think, we're not afraid to become an app on somebody else's operating system. Just like Microsoft said "Look I'm gonna release office, "on Mac or Ipad before I even do it on Windows," that kind of thinking has to permeate and pretty much, in my opinion, every technology will end up going forward. A good example of that is look, if somebody wants to consume their applications that they built on Nutanix on premise but their idea was look they don't wanna be in the data center business tomorrow without changing the apps they should be able to take that entire infrastructure and applications and consume it inside Amazon's fabric because they provide a bunch of other services as well as data centers. So, a recent announcement of Nutanix in AWS not on AWS for a reason is an example of us becoming an app on somebody else's operating system. That's an example of us transforming further away from being an infrastructure only or an appliance only company. >> What does this mean for your customers and your partners because you guys have taken an open strategy with partnering, the HPE announcements, very successfully off the tee, in the middle of the fair way as we say, looking good. That seems to be the trend, others taking a different approach, you know that is, owning it all. >> Yeah yeah, in fact I would say that look, in some way, internally we joke about ourselves, as we have to prove the... You know, we always used to think about ourselves as a smart phone for the enterprise, consumerizing the data center. But we had to prove that model by owning the full stack like Apple did, but over a period of time, to democratization happens, by distribution. And so in some ways, we have to become more of an android like company while retaining the best practices of the delight and the security of an apple device. So that's the easiest analogy where, We're trying to work with partners like Dell, Lenovo, and now increasingly, Hitachi, Fujitsu, Inspur, Intel, everybody is signed up, just because everybody now knows that the customers want an experience. And now the lastest relationship with HP takes it to the next level now where we want to bring essentailly super micro like appliance goodness one click from away upgrades, support, everything. But with a HPE backed platform, that both companies can benefit from. >> You know, one of the big complaints from customers, I hear, on theCUBE, and also privately is there's so many tools, and management software, I've got management plane for this, I got this over here, >> For sure... >> So there's kinda this toolshed mentality of, you know, a new hire, learn this tool for that software, people don't want another tool, they don't want another platform. So, how do you see that, how do you address that with going forward, this act two, as you continue to build the products what's the strategy and what's the value proposition for customers? >> I mean, think it's no different than I think how we sort of launched the company in the first place which is there's no way you can say we'll simplify your life without removing parts. That was the original Steve Jobs thing, right? The true way to simplify is to remove parts, right? And essentially that's what hyper-convergence has done, it just we're doing this not just for infrastructure but for clouds because when you use Nutanix you throw away old computer, you throw away old storage, you throw away old (inaudible) I mean, that's the only way to converge your experience down to one tool. You can't stitch together ten tools into this magical fabric, I mean it doesn't work that way. But that's hard, because not every customer is ready to do that, every partner is ready to do that they've got their own little incumbencies. But that's the journey we're on, it's a right of passage for us, we have to earn it the old fashioned way and we've done reasonably well so far. >> So you mentioned Steve Jobs, he also said, when he was alive, in an interview, on the lost interviews on Netflix, I watched that recently. He said, also software gives you the opportunity to move the needle on efficiencies, and change the game, much more significantly then managing a process improvement which can give you maybe 30% yield. He's saying you can go 60s, 80% changeover with software. This is part of your strategy, how do you guys see Nutanix in the future, with the software lead or approach, changing the game for IT? >> I think clearly, software is fundamental, I mean the whole point of us, our product was I think, we have some folks on the platform group that help make sure that the software runs because software has to run somewhere, by the way. It doesn't run in air, it runs on hardware. So let's not under emphasize hardware for that reason, but, most of our IP has been in software. But I would say that the real thing for us that has kept us going is design of software which is essentially also, when you go back to the Apple thing, because a lot of software renders out that too. It's how you design it, starting with why, rather than just going to the how, is how we see ourselves differentiating what we deliver to our customers over the next 5 years. >> Rebecca Knight: I want to ask you about innovation and your process because here you are, you're the Chief product officer at this very creative company, I wanna know, what sparks you're creativity, where do you get your ideas? Of course you're gonna say, "I talk to customers, "and I find out their problems", but where do you go for inspiration? >> Yeah, I think it's an age old problem I'll give you my personal answer, I don't think it's representative of everyone in the company obviously. And that's one of the good things with Nutanix each of us have their own point of view and things, right? We have this term of "let chaos reign and then reign in chaos". Right? To some extent. That has been done well at other companies like Google, and so forth. So, I've always believed in a couple of vectors for inspiration. The most obvious one is to listen to others. More than talk. Whether it's listening to customers, listening to partners, listening to other employees with other ideas and have a curated way to do that because if you only listen to customers you build faster horses not carts, as Henry Ford said, okay? So that's the what I would call a generic theme and you'd think that it's easy to do so, but it's very hard to truly listen from signal from the noise by the way. So there's an art there that one has to get better at. But the DNA has to be there to listen that's the first thing I would say. The second thing which I think is maybe deeper, and that's probably more in the... The first one applies to maybe 1% The second one, probably applies to .001% which is having intuition of what's right. And this ability, people call it, I don't know, big words like vision and so forth the ability to see around corners and anticipate, you know, my old manager, a guy that I respect a lot, Mark Templeton who was the CEO for Citrix, used to always ask this question "Do you know why Michelin has three stars? "The first star is for food, obviously, "there has to be good food. "The second star is for service. "The third star, not many people know why it's for" According to him, and I haven't really checked it yet, I haven't really eaten in too many Michelin three star restaurants, is anticipation. And product strategy is a little bit like that, right? So to me, that's where Nutanix really trumps the competition. Is that second dimension of intuition. More so than even, listening to customers. >> It's seeing around those corners, and knowing which way the winds are blowing. >> Totally. >> One of the other things that we're talking about a lot about, here on theCUBE, particularly at this conference, is the importance of culture. Nutanix...we had Dheeraj on this morning talking about the sort of playful nature that he tries to bring to the company, and that really has filtered down, how would you describe the Nutanix culture and how do you maintain the culture? >> So I think, we... I'll tell you personally, the journey that I was on, that there were a couple of things that I brought to the table, a couple things that I learned myself, as well as what I could see, a couple things that you'll see in a company that has been built by founders, in my opinion, I'm not a founder, or entrepreneur myself, but I've seen them in action now, is they bring one dimension that I've not seen in big company leaders, which is continuous learning. Because that's the only way they can stay in the company when it goes from 0 to ninety, right? And the folks that continuously learn, stay. If they don't, they leave and we get professional leaders. So, continuous learning, if it can be applied, to the generic company becomes an amplifying effect now. People can learn how to grow, look around the corners, they can learn things, that otherwise they aren't born with, in my opinion. So I think that's one unique dimension that Nutanix I think, inculcates in a lot of people, is this continuous learning. The other dimension, which I think, everybody knows about Nutanix being this humble, hungry, honest, with heart, you know those four words sort of capture the, a sense of, the playful, authenticity. But I think we're not afraid to be wrong. And, we're not afraid to make fun of ourselves. We're not afraid to be, I guess, ourselves, right? And that, I think is easy to say, but very hard to do. >> John Furrier: You learn through your mistakes as they say, learn through failure. So, you mention intuition. What does your intuition tell you about the current ecosystem as the market starts to really accelerate with multi cloud on premise private cloud, which by the way, good intuition, of course we keep on, at the first private cloud reports dominion and team, they got that right. The waves are coming and they look different. There's gonna be more integration we think. What does your intuition tell you about these next couple waves that are gonna come in to the landscape of the tech industry? >> Yeah, I mean I think, since I do want to come back on theCUBE again and again, and have something left over, I will say one thing though, is I think the gain in multi cloud is going to move up the stack, okay? That's where the next set of cloud wars are going to be fought. Is whose going to provide not just a great database as a service, but a great database itself. Because, Oracle's time's up, as far as I'm concerned, right? And you're going to see that with many traditional software stacks, some of them are Sass stacks that have been around for 20 years, by the way. Some of the largest Sass companies have been around for 20 years. It's time for a reboot for most of those companies. >> How about the Edge? What does the intuition tell you on the Edge? Certainly very relevant, you've got power, you've got connectivity expanding, Wifi 6 around the corner, we've seen that. 5g, okay, I buy it. But as it really starts to figure itself out, it's just another note on the network. What's your intuition tell you? >> Yeah, I mean, this is one area that I'm not too deep in, I've got other guys in my team who know a lot more, but, my intuition tells me, the more things change, the more they'll remain the same, in that area, right? So don't be surprised if they just end up being another smart phone. You know, its got an operating system, it runs apps, it's centrally controlled, talks to services in the back end, I see no reason why the Edge should be any different, if that make sense. >> John Furrier: Yeah, exactly. Then data, big part of it. Big part of your strategy, the data piece, >> Of course, of course, yeah. I mean I think data being a core competency of any company is going to stand out, I think in the next 5, 10 years. >> John Furrier: Awesome. What's going on at the show? What's been your hottest conversation in the hallways, talking to customers, partners, employees, what's some of the trending conversation? >> I don't know, this conversations pretty interesting! (laughs) >> Of course! >> Rebecca Knight: We agree! (Laughs) >> My intuition is telling me this is a good conversation! Hope it comes out good! >> Keep using that word man. >> I love it! >> Anyway, always great to be with you guys. >> Sunil, thank you so much for returning to theCUBE. >> Anytime. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for John Furrier, we will have much more from Nutanix.next coming up in just a little bit. Stay with us. (upbeat music)

live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services Intel and their ecosystem partners okay welcome back and we're live here in Las Vegas day three last interview of the day three days of wall-to-wall coverage two sets here at AWS reinvent 2018 our sixth year we've been at every reinvent except for the first one and it's been great to watch the rise I'm Jeff we're with Dean Volante we're here with Andy Jesse the CEO of AWS started this as it working backwards document years ago twelve years ago 12 half year zine years ago was when the document was written and we've launched 12 and a half years ago great to see you thanks for spending time I know you're super busy congratulations we met last week you couldn't really talk about it but boy there was so much more payload in the announcements than they were before are you happy with the results certainly three our keynote was taxing what's good impression when the keynote was over but ya know we're thrilled with it and most importantly the reason we're thrilled is because our customers are thrilled I think they just couldn't believe how much we delivered this week you know well over 100 capabilities and they were super excited about you know the storage announced was the thing is when you have millions of customers any announcement you make is going to be popular with thousands of customers so some people walked up to me and said oh I know it's not sexy but I love the storage announcements I needed the file systems I wanted that glacier deep archive some customers love the database releases with lots of customers that were excited about the machine learning piece and you know the another unsexy one where the enterprise abstractions just to make it so much easier for that type of builder who wants more prescriptive guidance to be able to get started quicker and then you know people are pretty excited that outpost too so it has you a question I'll talk Amazon speak now what what areas of the show do you feel you raise the bar this year on what was that what would you point to bar raising moments announcements well you know I think each year one of the things I like about reinvent and that we work hard on is we'd like to have we don't really want it to be a corporate event we wanted to be quirky and we want it to be authentic and we want you know we want our community to fit to have fun here while they also learn so you know Midnight Madness is for instance something we do every you know we've done the last couple years and we try radically different things and so I thought that Tatanka eating contest raised the bar is again this year was the second year in a row that we said again as political World Records and you know I thought I really liked Peter De Santis --is and Myrna Vogel's keynotes on Monday and today respectively I thought they both were fantastic and you know keep raising the bar are you over a year and you know so they're you know we're hoping I too will be something that people feel like raise the bar year over year what the house band synchronicity was quite good too you know yeah I tell you that that fan is terrific and you know and I think that again all those things I mentioned are part of what we you know think makes the event fun and quirky and different but the most important thing by far is the learning of the education and then our customers excited about not just the platform but we launched so many things do they feel like it helps them do their job better well while we're on the raising bar we've got a prop here this is the the deep racer deep the deep racer machine learning it's a toy for testing and the question comes up how old do you have to be to use this and I said hey if your kid can code machine learning good for them but talk about this because this is kind of interesting because it's fun but where'd this come from you know it came from last year when we release sage maker and we were making machine learning so much easier for everyday developers of scientists we said what can we do to give people hands-on experience because you learn things better if you actually try it and so we tried to help developers get more experience to computer vision by having a deep lens you know video camera and that was wildly popular and so as we were thinking about this year making reinforcement learning available as easily as we are in sage maker which we think is a huge potential game-changer grant Forsman learning the team kept thinking about it's great but nobody knows enforcement learning and nobody has experienced with it how can we give them experience what are ways they can get hands-on experience and that's how the deep racer car came up which is really making it simple where they can just give us a reward function with a line of Python strip and then Sage Maker will automatically train an RL algorithm and then they get to play it to the car and then race against one another and when we watched how competitive it was getting inside our own house on these RL infused cars racing each other we figured other people might find a compelling as well and I couldn't believe how many people participate yesterday yeah and then I don't know if you saw it three burners right before burners keynote the finals were really exciting to like the fact that there were some imperfections were actually made it more compelling to watch and so we had a racer Cup coming up - I met play 19 competitive yes that's going to happen yeah today was the accelerated version of the first ever deep racer League championship Cup but next year will be a full season at our 20 AWS summits the top winners in the in the deep racers you see bracer League races at each of those summits plus the top 10 vote getters in points from those summits will come here and compete for the championship Cup now you and I talked about a new persona last week when we met but now the announcements pretty clear now why this points to a whole new persona developer you got eSports on the twitch side booming heat sports is changing the game and in the whole digital sports category robotics space you got a satellite announcement this is a genre changed in digital culture and you see the AI stuff and machine learning how does the web services stack play in this new world where AI is now a service it's a whole nother paradigm shift what's your thoughts on all that well you know I mean all those areas that were continuing to expand into our areas that our customers are asking us to help them with and where there are huge opportunities for customers but where it's hard I mean if you look at space as an example if you've to interact with a satellite it's it's expensive to have to have all those satellites set up you know and those drown ground antennas set up and then you have to program them and then and you actually have to pay this fixed price instead of on-demand customers so why can't you give us access those satellites the way we consume AWS and then if you can have the ground antennas where when the data comes down from the satellite it's basically on the same premises as your AWS region so we can store the data and process the data analyze it and take action that is very compelling so that that just felt like a natural fit you know and the same thing with robotics I think that robotics is one of the most underrated areas of Technology I think robots will do all kinds of things for us at work and in a home and the tools out there to make it easy to build robotic applications and to do the simulation to deploy them and then have them work with the rest of your applications and infrastructure have been pretty primitive and so robot maker is I agree with you I think you look at the younger generation too even at the high school elementary level people are gravitating towards robotics robotics clubs are booming that maker culture goes through a whole nother level with robotic congratulation you know it's funny we had the youngest person to ever pass the AWS certification exam is a kid named Karthik nine years old passed and he was here this week actually and I got a chance to meet with him today and I said well after the certification what are you doing he said well I'm building a robot you know I'm feeling Ruben he said now with your launch of deep racer I want to try and find a way to to have the deep racer car be the eyes and the camera and the reinforcement learning for my robot nine years old yes it's gonna be a different generation with what they build John and I were talking this morning Andy at our open about you're making it harder for the critics used to be self-service only it criticized your open source contributions the hybrid strategy your turn a tick in the box is on all those outpost was I think surprised a lot of people it didn't so much surprise us that you were moving in that direction but I wonder if you could sort of talk about some of those key initiatives I know it's customer driven but wow the the TAM expansion the the customer value that you're bringing it's like a whole new era that you're entering yeah you know everything we build is you guys know we talk about all the time it's just it's driven by what customers want and so we just started over the last six months you know and really by virtue of having this partnership with VMware where we have a lot of enterprise engagement as they're moving to the cloud using VMware cloud and AWS we had a bunch of customers say it's really great I'm moving most my application of the cloud but there's some that aren't moving for a while because they got to be close to selling on-premises and I want to use AWS for this I don't want a different environment can you just find a way to put some services like compute and storage on-premises and hardware but I want to actually use the same control plan I'm going to use for the rest of AWS and I wanted to easily connect with the rest of my applications in AWS and we had you know we didn't like as you and I talked about a week or two ago we just have not like the model that's been out there so far to do this because it's you know the control plane is different the api's are different the tools are different the hardware is different the functionality is different and customers don't like it's why it's not getting much traction and we didn't want to pursue it if we didn't think it was going to be useful but we had this concept we were working on with a couple customers where they wanted compute and storage on-premises but they wanted to have that connect with all the other applications in the AWS cloud and so we have this idea that maybe this local set of compute and storage would be like a far zone from an availability zone they were using and we started thinking about that and we thought there was much more generalized idea which became outposts and so the thing that I think people are gonna love about that is for the applications that can't move easily because they need to be close slang on-premises you get AWS like real AWS compute real AWS Storage Analytics database sage maker will be in there as well but it's the same api's same control playing the same tools the same hardware we use in our data centers and it will easily connect through the same control plane to the rest of AWS the rest of the services and the rest of their applications there so and it provides a platform for a whole host of new services down I mean every customer meeting I've had in the last we made the announcement people are excited about I want to ask you guys are talking about all the innovation and new areas and we're seeing an expansion of the AWS distinct brand and things like TV advertising statcast I wonder what's behind that can you address that yeah it's a good question I mean there's kind of two different types of I'll call it TV advert Swartz we're doing one is straight-up advertising one is less so which is you know the one that less so is that a number of the sports leagues are really interested in and actually pretty sophisticated in using cloud computing and analytics and machine learning if you look at Major League Baseball now NFL and Formula One and they want to make the user experience and the viewer experience so much better and so they're building on top of AWS and then we like the ability of helping them showcase the capabilities that they're you know both the customer experience and the ml and AI capabilities then there's just a straight-up advertising them that we've been trying we tried a little bit of it last q4 and you know it's always very difficult to quantitatively measure tvf but we have a lot of ways that we try to triangulate that and we were really surprised and what looked like the positive numbers we saw for both TV as well as the outdoor media and things like in the airports and things like that and so we decided we would try it again this q4 and you know I think I would call us right now still experimenting yeah and it's very much kind of what Amazon does which is we try different things to see what resonates the see Whitefield says so so far so good and we expect to keep experimenting I I think that's a good call because the brand lift is probably there I'll see impressions get reach vehicle but you guys are in a rising tide market we're hearing co-creation VMware co-creating deep meaningful partnerships you always talk about that so it's kind of this success model of innovation to reimagine the satellite Lockheed Martin a partnership this seems to be a new way to do business in this rising tide how are you guys getting the word out education people want to know more this is a big kind of movement yeah well you know I think that if you looked at the first several years of AWS I was always surprised when I would go see enterprises and they would have no idea that Amazon was doing anything in the cloud even though we had the only cloud offering at the time so I think if you compare where we were a few years ago to today there's you know gigantic awareness relatively speaking but I still think that there are so many majority of workloads still live on premises I mean we have a twenty seven billion dollar revenue run rate business it's growing forty six percent year-over-year and yet we're still at the early stages of the meet of enterprise of public sector adoption in the u.s. you go outside the US where there twelve to thirty six months behind depending on the country in the industry and sometimes it feels like you know like Groundhog's Day well you guys are doing regions out there Italy as was announced yeah you're expanding very fast globally can you talk about that real quick yeah it's it's a you know we've had customers from 192 countries using AWS for many many years but they've been using AWS in regions outside of their country usually because there are a lot of workloads that could stand that latency and where the data doesn't have to be on natural soil but increasingly if you want to help customers get done what they want to and serve the broader array of their applications you have to have regions in their country both so that they have lower latency to their end users and because the data sovereignty laws which are getting really more rigid rather than more flexible let me ask you a question about competition you you said I can't members on the cube or in person there's no compression reach out gorilla for experience and time elastic economies with scale when you have copycat people trying to copy Amazon how do you talk about some of those things that are those diseconomies of scale what are the points that customers should look at when they say okay I got someone else is talking cloud Amazon's got years of experience ahead of the competition more services what do you talk about what do you point to you it's not about slimming the competition but what is the diseconomy of scale to try to match the trajectory of Amazon yeah it's it's a bunch of things you know first of all it's operational performance you know a lot of the hardest lessons you learn and operating of scale only happen when you get to that level of scale and you know there's some events that we see sometimes elsewhere we look at that and then we read the post-mortem we say oh yeah 2011 you know we remember they went through that I don't wish it on anybody but when you have a business at several times larger than the next or providers combined you just said a different level of scale and you've learned lessons earlier I also think that the reason that we continue to have both so much more functionality and innovate at a faster clip and seem to get capabilities that customers want is because we have so many more customers than anybody else you know a lot of times and this is happening all week to where customers will say to me I can't believe that you knew that I wanted that and I always say it's because you told us yeah it's not like we're Nostradamus you've told us that and so when you have so many more customers and when they feel free to give you feedback and when you've built good mechanisms like we have to get that feedback from the field to the product builders it means there's this real flywheel of getting you know getting more customers leads to more feedback leads to more features leads to better functionality where there's a network effect from being on the platform with all those other customers and all those industries I wonder if you could add some color to a premise that we've put forth on your edge strategy so what you guys you know we do a lot of these shows and a lot of the IOT and edge strategies that we've seen from traditional IT players what you call the old guard have fallen flat in our opinion because it's a top-down approach it reminds us of the Windows Phone it just didn't work and it's not going to work as their operations technologies people we see what you've announced here as a Bottoms Up approach you developing an application platform to build secure and manage apps for those folks right at the edge I wonder if you could add some color to that and some thoughts on your edge strategy yeah I mean again for us if we don't have some top-down strategy that you know that I think is grandiose it's just what customers want and so we have so many customers who have all these devices at the edge and all these assets at the edge and they said to us well the first problem I have I want to get this data into the cloud and then I want to do analytics item we say ok well how can we help they say well the first thing is I don't even know how to translate this data from the device protocol to just being able to operate in the cloud so that's the first problem we go solve well then people say ok now I can get it in but I actually I need security like you know if you look at the amount of security options for these edge devices it's a new field you know let that dine attack that took a lot of the internet down a couple years ago came from you know a device on the edge and so that's why you know we built you know a security capability and people say well okay now you've made it so I can run devices but if I'm gonna run thousands of devices I need a way to manage all those devices of scale and we build telling to manage two devices and people say well ok it's great that I can do it and device is big enough that have a CPU but what about when they don't have a CPU you know they have just a microcontroller and that's why we built the our toss piece and you know the list kind of keeps going people so this is great now that I get all this data in the cloud I can take all these analytics actions but on my device sometimes I don't want to make the round trip to the cloud so can you give me a way to use the same programming model and and pick which triggers I want to take action with cloud versus those that want to take on the device itself which was what green grass was so all of those pieces is not some kind of top-down master plan as much as we know that customers have all these devices the edge that they want to use that data analyze that data take action on that data and send it back in multiple ways and you have you have the cloud platform to give them the services to make the tools the right tools for the right job yeah that's the main team yeah so I got to ask you about one of the big controversies that we don't think that's that controversial but the chips that you announced new Amazon Web Services front microprocessors the chips yeah do two of them talk about them and Intel's also a partner a lot of people are talking about this in the press yeah Intel Amazon chips well that annapurna acquisition is Norton they bear fruit was 2015 I think yeah early it really the annapurna team is fantastic and they've added a huge amount of value to AWS and Amazon as a whole you know the first thing I would say is that Intel is a very deep partner of AWS and will be for a long time I mean that that's not changing and we've been a long thought that they were gonna be lots of different processors out there and and different ones that did different things at different price points and so like a lot of other companies we've been interested in arm for a long time and for a while it wasn't mature enough and the technology is matured and we found a way in in building our own ARM chip with graviton where we think we can allow customers to run a lot of their scale out generalize were close but up to 45 percent less expensively and so when you find a value proposition that compelling for customers you need to do it and you know as I mentioned in the keynote yesterday when we were talking about inference we feel like a lot of the world has been solvent for training and not solvent as much for inference yet and we've made training so much easier with the things that we've built in AWS over the last couple years but inferences where most of the cost is gonna be and so elastic inference we think it you know will allow people to be much more efficient in how they use them for use and how they spend money but when you've got the type of workloads at scale and productions that use whole GPUs or that need that low latency where you need it on the hardware of a chip that's optimized for inference they is faster that's more cost effective that's high throughput we can get hundreds of tops on it and thousands to you ban them together he's gonna totally change the game for imprison and so that was something that wasn't easy for us to find elsewhere and when we have team fortunately they could build it and it's the combination of the elastic service of inference with the chip that makes the difference it specialism there so it's not like I mean you can use each on their own and we expect they'll be a bunch of customers who will use each on their own but there will be an opportunity to use those in combination that will be very powerful it comes down to really deeply understanding the customer problem again at night training versus inference and everybody talks about the training right the the technical challenge you got a child is the internet and tells gonna make a lot of money as it stands expanding market banding so they'll get their share the chips get taped out their con a couple year to three year life cycles and everything starts anew every time somebody's building a new chip so I think it's actually great for customers of all sorts that there's multiple processors that are possible but we will have a deep relationship with Intel forever I think so I want to talk about one of the cool demos you did on stage not a lot you did customer did f1 that was a super cool I love that imagery because it said an analogy of high performance competitive racing that can be applied to this play sports anything and the level of accuracy that they need in the real time time series kind of encapsulates a lot of the cloud value talk about the f1 analytic thing are you guys gonna sponsor these events there's a relationship there give us what the picture of what's going on there you have a deep relationship with Formula One where they're using our platform to to do their all their digital properties as well as their analytics and machine learning and it was super cool to see Ross demo the way that they're changing the user experience for for viewers and you know it's it's it's an amazing sport you know it's not watched as much maybe in the US but outside the US that is the motorsport and the way that they're changing the experience the way that they're able to assess what's happening with drivers and with cars and then predict what's actually happening and make the viewer feel like they're actually either in the cockpit or actually in the pit itself with it with the crew is it's really exciting and it's non err to be a partner so you do some events they'll get the cube they're these these big time again there's a tech angle now and everything it's a plug for you to be at the they have one event cloud demócrata you're hitting now new industries I mean this is the thing right I mean it's disrupting every industry I mean what aren't you disrupting I mean what areas do you see that yet aren't coming online to the cloud I don't see industry segments at this point that aren't moving to the cloud I would have told you 18 to 24 months ago that I felt like financial services was moving a lot more slowly than then I thought they should or you know probably healthcare also was a little bit slower but both of those industry segments are moving very aggressively well it's taking longer they're high-risk industries and the digital transformation has it occurred fast enough but it's coming and there's regulatory pieces that they legitimately have to sort through and you know we have just if you look at financial services as an example we have a pretty significant team that does nothing but work with our partners to help them with the regulatory bodies because what we find is when we go with a customer to a regulator and show them a real use case and then how it will be done in a DOP is the regulator says oh well that's more secure that you do on-premises and so it's just an education process and you know I think that's been helpful in it and I'll get final questions for you what have you observed here at reinvent Houston glad people talking so you get a lot of feedback actually to clopped two-part question because I was asked the final final question so I'll just get it out front what are people missing of all the announcements you've had a lot of signal in there a lot of a lot of announcements what are what is something that you've observed that you think should be amplified that people might have not overlooked but like you feel like it's more important to sign the light on we'll start with that one well you know it's a little hard for me to tell this moment just because there have been so many in such a short amount of time and and if we just look a little bit at the coverage it seems and if I take just as inputs they comments and and the questions from customers it's been pretty broadly understood and people are pretty excited and as I said different segments have kind of their favorite areas but I feel like people are pretty excited by the breadth of capabilities you know I think that if I pick two in particular I would say that people are still in the machine learning space people are blown away by how much we provided are all three layers of the stack I think people are still getting their heads around which layer of the stack am I gonna participate at you know I mean the one that probably has the most potential for most companies is that middle layer because most companies have gobs of data and there are jewels in that data and if you can enable their developers their everyday developers to be able to build models and get at the predictive value and add value that has huge impact for companies moving forward but most modern companies with technology functions will use all three layers of the stack and so just getting their arms around which layers of the stack they should take advantage of first and having the personnel to be able to do it and we're making that much easier with things like sage maker and then you know I think if you look at the blockchain space I think that that is just one of those spaces that has a huge amount of buzz people talk a lot about it exactly sure sometimes what they're gonna do but but I also think that a lot of people said to us that breaking those into those two real customer jobs to be done and then having a great solution that does each of those jobs really well is not only something that AWS does all the time that makes it easier for them but it also made it easier for a lot of them to understand that a lot of customers said to us you know that qld be that ledger database with a single trust of central authority for my supply chain that's what I need for my supply chain I don't need all the complexity of a blockchain framework and then there were a lot of other people said oh yeah that is what I want I wanted to decentralize trust between peers but I just needed a way easier way to manage hyper ledger fabric and etherium so I think those are two that people like are so interested and still figuring out how to use as expansively as I think they hope they will Andy thanks so much for your time and I want to just say watching you guys in the past six years has been a fun journey together but watching the execution you guys have done an amazing job of keeping your eye on the ball and being humble but being proud and loud at the same time so congratulations and you know guns blaring in 2019 what's your top pray all right besides listening to the customers what's your top 20 19 we know you listen to cut oh my gosh we have so many things that we're doing in 2019 but you know we have a lot of delivery in front and in front of us I mean as much as we launched 140 unique things over the last six to eight business days and yet I tell you to stay tuned the rest of 2018 we have more coming and then in nineteen you'll you should expect to see more few capabilities more database capabilities more machine learning capabilities more analytics capability look a lot I could spend all night John we don't need it we don't need a post reinvent post you know traumatic announcements syndrome because just to digest it all yeah it's a lot of work looking forward to seeing how enterprises continue to make to to kind of manage their hybrid approach as they're as they're making this trend transition from on-premises to the cloud how many continue to jump on to VMware cloud an AWS how many jump onto outpost so I think that that transition and helping customers do that easily is something on here of course we'll be commentating and pontificating on that for the next year thanks for your time I really should have me and I appreciate that you guys come at regular pay our pleasure okay winding down that's the last interview here wall to wall covers two cents 110 interviews in the books we'll have 500 video assets total blog post on Sylvia angle calm that's reinvent closing down 2018 thanks for watching [Music]

>> Q. At service now Knowledge fourteen is sponsored by service. Now here are your hosts, Dave Volonte and Jeff Frick. >> Hi, buddy. We're back. This is the Cube alive. Mosconi south in San Francisco. This is the service now. Knowledge fourteen Conference. I'm David Dante here with Jeff Frick. The Cube is our live mobile studio. We get out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. Atticus Tyson is here. Is the CEO of Intuit eyes attending a parallel event? The service now has going on here, which is the CEO Decisions event. I think it's about one hundred CEOs. Atticus, welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on. Thanks. Happy to be here. Yes. So tell us a little bit about what's going on over there. The CEO decisions. So, as >> you said, it's about a hundred CEOs, uh, having some good discussions about the future of the role of the CEO. And this thing is a good speakers and getting together to be able to talk and share. >> What are some of the big themes that you guys were talking about? >> The big theme is the shift of really from being about systems of records to systems engaged, uh, and how we engage with lines of business to really enable growth. And it's less about cost savings and what we used to >> do. Yeah, so the whole notion. I mean, I love Frank's Lubinsky note this morning, sort of the message of turning it from a cost center into a producer of value. It sounds good, right? But when you get down to it and you're you're in the front lines and you're talking to a lot of CEO is trying to do more with less. A lot of times they don't have the budget. They don't the time. They don't have the management buy in on the board by and interestingly, we're just talking to Dave, right ways that we were asking him about. Wilmore CEO has come out of the business because that was one of frank, sort of no prescriptions. You really need to have a CEO who knows as much about the business is the business people, and that's the discussion that they should be having, not a technology discussion. It's rare you happen to be one that came out of the business, so talk a little bit about some of the roles that you've played it into it and how you ended up as a C e o. >> Sure so I've been with the company almost thirteen years. I've had four major jobs, one leading the protection program for the company product management for the small business division and then heading up engineering on now. And, uh, and the main reason I joined the group is I was I was always hearing the reason we couldn't do something because of, uh rather than complain about it, fix it. So I joined them on, uh, it's hard. Uh, exactly what you talked about is we have to still run the company with all of our existing systems of record while we're innovating while we're trying to tell a new story while we're trying to train our existing employees who are great at running these older systems but don't necessarily know the new paradigm. So it's shifting everything while still running the railroad, which is difficult. >> So from from a business perspective, when you're sort of running the business, how was into it using technology as a differentiator and it's a competitive advantage. Well, >> one of the things you know since our main product is technology, uh, really are our whole community. Our whole set of employees are technical people, uh, and So we're trying to embed technology everywhere. Uh, one of the things that's happening also is the line between what's traditionally I t. And what's product is blurring. So if you're a customer and you want to pay your bill or you wanna change your address, you have to do that inside the product. In a way, that's easy. And so we have a night group have to figure out how to work within that framework and have a great experience doing >> okay. So the line between the group and the product group is is much more blurred. You're saying it into it that it would be a you know, manufacturer. >> Absolutely. And in fact, one of the things I've been doing is really making the group more like a product group. Hiring product managers. I actually have a whole design staff that designs experiences. So if you were to walk into a room, you mean why not know whose From my tear? Who's with product? >> Yeah, okay. And so are the discussions that what do they like? The discussions that you're having with the business folks? I mean, you're talking about they're pl how to grow their profitability. How to increase. You know their margins, how to expand their channel. I mean, those the conversations >> that you're having absolutely on DH. How do we really provide a great experience for our agents who worked with customers, how to provide great end and customer experiences? How are we as the group enabling them to do more for customers on DH, create that one on one engagement that we want to do >> so? And it's what's been the reception kind of coming in from the outsider, if you will, from the other side of the wall within the focus. You know, I'm sure you have probably some expectations that were completely incorrect. Some assumptions that were necessarily there. So how they taken to you. And also there's a lot of talk about transforming kind of people from service providers in terms of pencil pushers and form filler routers. Teo, you know, strategic thinkers adding business value. Are they receptive to That was at a hard message to get across. How's it actually happening? >> Yeah, absolutely receptive. And I think if anybody's learned mauritz me more than them, uh, I've learned kind of the importance of the organization and how embedded it is with actually operating the company, and I have found people there who wanted for a long time to be able to have these kinds of conversations. But they've been relegated, if you will toe handling tickets, Uh, so once we can provide the framework and really aligned the work we're doing in it with driving growth with driving value, the conversations get easier, they get more meaningful, and the people doing the work really enjoy it much more. >> So is there a secret formula that you can share with either CEOs that haven't been on the business side or business practitioners that don't haven't really been on the other side of better ways to bridge that gap or two Collaborator Think it make it easier? >> You know, I think the way that worked for me was really trying to get a line around KP eyes or keep performance indicators. You sit down with a business leader and you know, what are the three or four metrics that I can really help in driving your business? You know? Is it Is it contacts? Is it average handled, which usually isn't, you know, Is it more of a transaction? That promoter score based on the satisfaction with dealing with the agent. What are those right indicators for you as a business leader? And then let's measure ourselves there and I'll be responsible is the technology guy. Figure out the right technology to make that happen, but we're going to focus everybody in i t and the business on the same measurements. >> And how have you been able to carve additional resource is to go after those types of objectives versus we always hear about, you know, the unbelievable amount of percentages just to keep the lights on and keep things running. >> Exactly. And that's really an internal conversation that we've gotta have because I'm definitely not getting more budget, er and so it is a brown. How do we get more efficient and automate with what we already have? I work with vendors to help us get better while we shift. Resource is over to the news because I'm definitely not anymore, but you're >> not getting more budget. So, Atticus, you've you've run engineering organizations, so you've got at least, you know, technical background from that standpoint, even a software engineer. But you mentioned off camera. You know the acronym guy right. So you hang out with Duke World. Forget it. Right? Pig and highs and scrap yard. Right. Okay, so but so And you've been in the business side of things. So when you come back into a role, you come to a roll of the technology head. How do you organized to tap that? Technical expertise? Nothing necessarily lack but the currency, you know, the acronym. Go. So how do you organize that? You lied on your CTO. Do you have? You know, uh, did you have to change the organization or inherit one that actually worked? And what if you could describe that a little bit? >> Great question. I think the biggest thing I changed about the organization when I came in is. And when I came, it was organized around systems. So there was a sable team, and there was no idea Artie And what? Instead, we did this. We created a sales care and marketing team. Andi said, you know, you're really a cow gamble for driving a great sales Karen marketing experience for end users and for agents. And I don't really care what technology you're using. Uh, so don't be allegiant to the technology because we all know Salesforce's great today, five years from now, they may not, uh, and I don't want to get so blind that I don't see the next thing coming on. So I have an expectation people in those groups that they're always looking for the next thing as well. >> So it was a classic stovepipe. Now what kind of friction that that cause? >> Well, the friction is really kind of my own. Learning is how interconnected all of the enterprise really is. It's nice and easy to say. There's a sales Karen marketing team and there's a finance dean. But those two systems really have to integrate and talk together and learning how to bridge that gap in a way that doesn't create a lot of bureaucracy. That's something we're still learning to do. >> And and what has been the impact of that change? Have you been able to do anything discernible at this point? Are actually how long you been a CEO? So >> seo since June. Okay, so relatively new. Okay, but I was heading engineering within. I worked for the C E O for about a year before that. So I many a night for about two >> years. Okay. And what is the impact bin of that organization? Changes have been discernible. I think it >> has. I think there's two main things. One is much greater transparency with our business partners of how we're spending the dollars on DH. I've invited them in to sit with us at the table and help us allocate those resources together. Esso and a greater appreciation on their side of the trade offs We have to make why we still run the business but try to do the innovation that's one and then the other is really creating great innovation coming out of the team because when they feel like their allegiance to the sales and care engineer who's out on the floor, one of the things I've done, uh, that into it. We're famous for something called the Follow Me home, uh, where we actually go to our customers homes and watch them use the product. We did the same thing when we did a follow on agent, uh, so we went to the call center and actually washed agents work and ask them what was difficult about using the product. We had engineers doing that, not product managers so they can actually see the problem first. >> And you drove that initiative? Absolutely. It wasn't it was that considered innovative. ITT's seems so basic, right? But everyone's so busy and exactly time to do something, creating the time to do it >> and even getting the cooperation from the managers of the agents to do it, because they just want to be on the floor taking calls. But actually having somebody looking over their shoulder asking what was worked about that what didn't work was a little bit of organizational pushed back. But once they understood the value they got onboard, >> whether any on aha moments it came out of that. Or was it more incremental? Several >> and mostly around. Just screen design and call Flo. Why did we have you to four clicks when you could do it in two clicks to really allow the agent to focus more on their interaction with the customer, not their interaction with the product. >> So I want to shift gears a little bit, so when you're into it right, you guys used to send out discs and CDs, and you had to change your model tow cloud based application, which is you know the kind of classic Do you kill your own business or you let somebody else kill it for you, right? Talk a little bit about how that knowledge helped you within trying to transform the department. Great question. I mean, >> because we've been running a digital or an online product for well over twelve years now, uh, both in TurboTax and in QuickBooks. And we've learned a lot in how to just run that kind of experience. And so now, as cloud based I T offerings are coming along, we already really understand kind of what they're doing on their side on one of the things we've been really pushing for. I think along with other people in the industry is more transparency and those cloud providers. Sometimes you think that they just want to run it as a utility. But as a technologist, I want to know more about how their services running. So I know how to rely on that's been a think attention in the >> industry. We gotta rap, but I want to just get your take. So you're new to service now, right? You bring it in. Uh, we're going live in about a month. Okay. We've been through the proof of concept. What are your expectations? Where you going? Toe pointed. >> So I think first off, just the agents who resolve tickets are going to have a much better experience than what we had before, which was a combination of some homegrown systems, Uh, in a couple of other vendors. So much better agent experience during the resolving on a much better employees experience, putting in tickets, uh, and also much better visibility into the workflow. >> Great. Atticus Tyson. Thanks very much. You're coming on the cube, you know. Good luck in your new role. Looks like you're having an impact on, uh, kind of a poster child for the service now. Vision of a of a CEO. So appreciate you coming on. Thanks. Something I keep right to Everybody will be right back with our next guests. Dave, along with Geoffrey, relied from Mosconi in San Francisco right back