>> Narrator: From downtown San Francisco it's the Cube covering RSA North America 2018. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the RSA conference in downtown San Francisco, 40,000 plus professionals all about security and one of the big themes is how do we work together? How do we leverage our collective knowledge, look for patterns to help, you know, be better against the bad guys, and one of the really big forces for that is the Cyber Threat Alliance and we're really excited to have Michael Daniel, the president and CEO of Cyber Threat Alliance. Michael, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, talk about kind of the genesis of this because it's such an important concept that, yes, we're competitors on this floor but if we work together, we can probably save ourselves a lot of work. >> Absolutely, I mean, part of the idea behind the Cyber Threat Alliance is that no matter how big you are, no matter how broad your coverage is of cyber security company, no one individual company ever sees all of the threats all of the time. >> Jeff: Right. >> And, so that, in order to better protect their customers and clients, sharing that threat intelligence at speed at scale is a very fundamental part of being a much better cyber security company. >> So, how hard of a sell was that a year ago? I think you started it a year ago, announced it, and how's the ecosystem kind of changed over the last year? >> Well, I would say that, you know, it's not like I run into anybody that says, "You know, Michael, that's a really "stupid idea, we shouldn't do that." Right, it's really finding the way for a cyber security company to fit it into their business model. >> Right. >> To be able to consume the threat intelligence at a speed that matters and really be able to bake it into their products. That's usually the hard part. Conceptually, everybody agrees that this is what we need to do. >> Right, and then, how 'about just the nitty gritty nuts and bolts of, you know, how do you share information? How is it picked up, how is it communicated? What are the protocols? I'd imagine that's not too simple. >> That's right, and one of the things that we settled on was we use the STIX format because it's an open format that everybody can translate back and forth. We had to build in a lot of business rules to actually make sure that people were playing fair. You know, for example, we actually require all of our members to share. So, you can't just join the alliance and consume information, you actually have to give in order to receive. >> Right, and you've got some really kind of high-level, lofty goals that you've built this around in terms of doing good for the greater good, kind of beyond the profitability of an individual customer transaction. I wonder if you can speak to a few of those. >> Well, sure, so the part of the idea behind the way that CTA is structured is that we're a 501 C6, so we're a non-profit, right, and the idea is that we function to help raise the level of cyber security across the digital ecosystem and actually enable our member companies to compete more effectively because they have better intelligence that their products and services are based on, but we, ourselves, are not in it to make money. >> Right, right, right, alright, Michael. Unfortunately, we're up against the time. >> Absolutely. >> So, we're going to have to leave it there, but love the work that you guys are doing and it makes so much sense for people to work together. >> Well, thank you very much, thank you for having me. >> Alright, he's Michael from Cyber Threat Alliance. I'm Jeff from the Cube. You're watching us from the RSA conference San Francisco, thanks for watchin'. (soft electronic beat)

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back to Vegas. Guys. We're happy that you're here. Lisa Martin here covering with Dave Valante, Palo Alto Networks Ignite 22. We're at MGM Grand. This is our first day, Dave of two days of cube coverage. We've been having great conversations with the ecosystem with Palo Alto executives, with partners. One of the things that they have is unit 42. We're gonna be talking with them next about cyber intelligence. And the threat data that they get is >>Incredible. Yeah. They have all the data, they know what's going on, and of course things are changing. The state of play changes. Hold on a second. I got a text here. Oh, my Netflix account was frozen. Should I click on this link? Yeah. What do you think? Have you had a, it's, have you had a little bit more of that this holiday season? Yeah, definitely. >>Unbelievable, right? A lot of smishing going on. >>Yeah, they're very clever. >>Yeah, we're very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to the queue. Wendy Whitmore is here, the SVP of Unit 42. Welcome back, Wendy. Great to have >>You. Thanks Lisa. So >>Unit 42 created back in 2014. One of the things that I saw that you said in your keynote this morning or today was everything old is still around and it's co, it's way more prolific than ever. What are some of the things that Unit 42 is seeing these days with, with respect to cyber threats as the landscape has changed so much the last two years alone? >>You know, it, it has. So it's really interesting. I've been responding to these breaches for over two decades now, and I can tell you that there are a lot of new and novel techniques. I love that you already highlighted Smishing, right? In the opening gate. Right. Because that is something that a year ago, no one knew what that word was. I mean, we, it's probably gonna be invented this year, right? But that said, so many of the tactics that we have previously seen, when it comes to just general espionage techniques, right? Data act filtration, intellectual property theft, those are going on now more than ever. And you're not hearing about them as much in the news because there are so many other things, right? We're under the landscape of a major war going on between Russia and Ukraine of ransomware attacks, you know, occurring on a weekly basis. And so we keep hearing about those, but ultimately these nations aid actors are using that top cover, if you will, as a great distraction. It's almost like a perfect storm for them to continue conducting so much cyber espionage work that like we may not be feeling that today, but years down the road, they're, the work that they're doing today is gonna have really significant impact. >>Ransomware has become a household word in the last couple of years. I think even my mom knows what it is, to some degree. Yeah. But the threat actors are far more sophisticated than they've ever written. They're very motivated. They're very well funded. I think I've read a stat recently in the last year that there's a ransomware attack once every 11 seconds. And of course we only hear about the big ones. But that is a concern that goes all the way up to the board. >>Yeah. You know, we have a stat in our ransomware threat report that talks about how often victims are posted on leak sites. And I think it's once every seven minutes at this point that a new victim is posted. Meaning a victim has had their data, a victim organization had their data stolen and posted on some leak site in the attempt to be extorted. So that has become so common. One of the shifts that we've seen this year in particular and in recent months, you know, a year ago when I was at Ignite, which was virtual, we talked about quadruple extortion, meaning four different ways that these ransomware actors would go out and try to make money from these attacks in what they're doing now is often going to just one, which is, I don't even wanna bother with encrypting your data now, because that means that in order to get paid, I probably have to decrypt it. Right? That's a lot of work. It's time consuming. It's kind of painstaking. And so what they've really looked to do now is do the extortion where they simply steal the data and then threaten to post it on these leak sites, you know, release it other parts of the web and, and go from there. And so that's really a blending of these techniques of traditional cyber espionage with intellectual property theft. Wow. >>How trustworthy are those guys in terms of, I mean, these are hackers, right? In terms of it's really the, the hacker honor system, isn't it? I mean, if you get compromised like that, you really beholden to criminals. And so, you >>Know, so that's one of the key reasons why having the threat intelligence is so important, right? Understanding which group that you're dealing with and what their likelihood of paying is, what's their modus operandi. It's become even more important now because these groups switch teams more frequently than NFL trades, you know, free agents during the regular season, right? Or players become free agents. And that's because their infrastructure. So the, you know, infrastructure, the servers, the systems that they're using to conduct these attacks from is actually largely being disrupted more from law enforcement, international intelligence agencies working together with public private partnerships. So what they're doing is saying, okay, great. All that infrastructure that I just had now is, is burned, right? It's no longer effective. So then they'll disband a team and then they'll recruit a new team and it's constant like mixing and matching in players. >>All that said, even though that's highly dynamic, one of the other areas that they pride themselves on is customer service. So, and I think it's interesting because, you know, when I said they're not wanting to like do all the decryption? Yeah. Cuz that's like painful techni technical slow work. But on the customer service side, they will create these customer service portals immediately stand one up, say, you know, hey it's, it's like an Amazon, you know, if you've ever had to return a package on Amazon for example, and you need to click through and like explain, you know, Hey, I didn't receive this package. A portal window pops up, you start talking to either a bot or a live agent on the backend. In this case they're hu what appeared to be very much humans who are explaining to you exactly what happened, what they're asking for, super pleasant, getting back within minutes of a response. And they know that in order for them to get paid, they need to have good customer service because otherwise they're not going to, you know, have a business. How, >>So what's the state of play look like from between nation states, criminals and how, how difficult or not so difficult is it for you to identify? Do you have clear signatures? My understanding in with Solar Winds it was a little harder, but maybe help us understand and help our audience understand what the state of play is right now. >>One of the interesting things that I think is occurring, and I highlighted this this morning, is this idea of convergence. And so I'll break it down for one example relates to the type of malware or tools that these attackers use. So traditionally, if we looked at a nation state actor like China or Russia, they were very, very specific and very strategic about the types of victims that they were going to go after when they had zero day. So, you know, new, new malware out there, new vulnerabilities that could be exploited only by them because the rest of the world didn't know about it. They might have one organization that they would target that at, at most, a handful and all very strategic for their objective. They wanted to keep that a secret as long as possible. Now what we're seeing actually is those same attackers going towards one, a much larger supply chain. >>So, so lorenzen is a great example of that. The Hafnia attacks towards Microsoft Exchange server last year. All great examples of that. But what they're also doing is instead of using zero days as much, or you know, because those are expensive to build, they take a lot of time, a lot of funding, a lot of patience and research. What they're doing is using commercially available tools. And so there's a tool that our team identified earlier this year called Brute Rael, C4 or BRC four for short. And that's a tool that we now know that nation state actors are using. But just two weeks ago we invested a ransomware attack where the ransomware actor was using that same piece of tooling. So to your point, yak can get difficult for defenders when you're looking through and saying, well wait, they're all using some of the same tools right now and some of the same approaches when it comes to nation states, that's great for them because they can blend into the noise and it makes it harder to identify as >>Quickly. And, and is that an example of living off the land or is that B BRC four sort of a homegrown hacker tool? Is it, is it a, is it a commercial >>Off the shelf? So it's a tool that was actually, so you can purchase it, I believe it's about 2,500 US dollars for a license. It was actually created by a former Red teamer from a couple well-known companies in the industry who then decided, well hey, I built this tool for work, I'm gonna sell this. Well great for Red teamers that are, you know, legitimately doing good work, but not great now because they're, they built a, a strong tool that has the ability to hide amongst a, a lot of protocols. It can actually hide within Slack and teams to where you can't even see the data is being exfiltrated. And so there's a lot of concern. And then now the reality that it gets into the wrong hands of nation state actors in ransomware actors, one of the really interesting things about that piece of malware is it has a setting where you can change wallpaper. And I don't know if you know offhand, you know what that means, but you know, if that comes to mind, what you would do with it. Well certainly a nation state actor is never gonna do something like that, right? But who likes to do that are ransomware actors who can go in and change the background wallpaper on a desktop that says you've been hacked by XYZ organization and let you know what's going on. So pretty interesting, obviously the developer doing some work there for different parts of the, you know, nefarious community. >>Tremendous amount of sophistication that's gone on the last couple of years alone. I was just reading that Unit 42 is now a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance includes now more than 35 organizations. So you guys are getting a very broad picture of today's threat landscape. How can customers actually achieve cyber resilience? Is it achievable and how do you help? >>So I, I think it is achievable. So let me kind of parse out the question, right. So the Cyber Threat Alliance, the J C D C, the Cyber Safety Review Board, which I'm a member of, right? I think one of the really cool things about Palo Alto Networks is just our partnerships. So those are just a handful. We've got partnerships with over 200 organizations. We work closely with the Ukrainian cert, for example, sharing information, incredible information about like what's going on in the war, sharing technical details. We do that with Interpol on a daily basis where, you know, we're sharing information. Just last week the Africa cyber surge operation was announced where millions of nodes were taken down that were part of these larger, you know, system of C2 channels that attackers are using to conduct exploits and attacks throughout the world. So super exciting in that regard and it's something that we're really passionate about at Palo Alto Networks in terms of resilience, a few things, you know, one is visibility, so really having a, an understanding of in a real, as much of real time as possible, right? What's happening. And then it goes into how you, how can we decrease operational impact. So that's everything from network segmentation to wanna add the terms and phrases I like to use a lot is the win is really increasing the time it takes for the attackers to get their work done and decreasing the amount of time it takes for the defenders to get their work done, right? >>Yeah. I I call it increasing the denominator, right? And the ROI equation benefit over or value, right? Equals equals or benefit equals value over cost if you can increase the cost to go go elsewhere, right? Absolutely. And that's the, that's the game. Yeah. You mentioned Ukraine before, what have we learned from Ukraine? I, I remember I was talking to Robert Gates years ago, 2016 I think, and I was asking him, yeah, but don't we have the best cyber technology? Can't we attack? He said, we got the most to lose too. Yeah. And so what have we learned from, from Ukraine? >>Well, I, I think that's part of the key point there, right? Is you know, a great offense essentially can also be for us, you know, deterrent. So in that aspect we have as an, as a company and or excuse me, as a country, as a company as well, but then as partners throughout all parts of the world have really focused on increasing the intelligence sharing and specifically, you know, I mentioned Ukrainian cert. There are so many different agencies and other sorts throughout the world that are doing everything they can to share information to help protect human life there. And so what we've really been concerned with, with is, you know, what cyber warfare elements are going to be used there, not only how does that impact Ukraine, but how does it potentially spread out to other parts of the world critical infrastructure. So you've seen that, you know, I mentioned CS rrb, but cisa, right? >>CISA has done a tremendous job of continuously getting out information and doing everything they can to make sure that we are collaborating at a commercial level. You know, we are sharing information and intelligence more than ever before. So partners like Mania and CrowdStrike, our Intel teams are working together on a daily basis to make sure that we're able to protect not only our clients, but certainly if we've got any information relevant that we can share that as well. And I think if there's any silver lining to an otherwise very awful situation, I think the fact that is has accelerated intelligence sharing is really positive. >>I was gonna ask you about this cause I think, you know, 10 or so years ago, there was a lot of talk about that, but the industry, you know, kind of kept things to themselves, you know, a a actually tried to monetize some of that private data. So that's changing is what I'm hearing from you >>More so than ever more, you know, I've, I mentioned I've been in the field for 20 years. You know, it, it's tough when you have a commercial business that relies on, you know, information to, in order to pay people's salaries, right? I think that has changed quite a lot. We see the benefit of just that continuous sharing. There are, you know, so many more walls broken down between these commercial competitors, but also the work on the public private partnership side has really increased some of those relationships. Made it easier. And you know, I have to give a whole lot of credit and mention sisa, like the fact that during log four J, like they had GitHub repositories, they were using Slack, they were using Twitter. So the government has really started pushing forward with a lot of the newer leadership that's in place to say, Hey, we're gonna use tools and technology that works to share and disseminate information as quickly as we can. Right? That's fantastic. That's helping everybody. >>We knew that every industry, no, nobody's spared of this. But did you notice in the last couple of years, any industries in particular that are more vulnerable? Like I think of healthcare with personal health information or financial services, any industries kind of jump out as being more susceptible than others? >>So I think those two are always gonna be at the forefront, right? Financial services and healthcare. But what's been really top of mind is critical infrastructure, just making sure right? That our water, our power, our fuel, so many other parts of right, the ecosystem that go into making sure that, you know, we're keeping, you know, houses heated during the winter, for example, that people have fresh water. Those are extremely critical. And so that is really a massive area of focus for the industry right now. >>Can I come back to public-private partnerships? My question is relates to regulations because the public policy tends to be behind tech, the technology industry as an understatement. So when you take something like GDPR is the obvious example, but there are many, many others, data sovereignty, you can't move the data. Are are, are, is there tension between your desire as our desire as an industry to share data and government's desire to keep data private and restrict that data sharing? How is that playing out? How do you resolve that? >>Well I think there have been great strides right in each of those areas. So in terms of regulation when it comes to breaches there, you know, has been a tendency in the past to do victim shaming, right? And for organizations to not want to come forward because they're concerned about the monetary funds, right? I think there's been tremendous acceleration. You're seeing that everywhere from the fbi, from cisa, to really working very closely with organizations to, to have a true impact. So one example would be a ransomware attack that occurred. This was for a client of ours within the United States and we had a very close relationship with the FBI at that local field office and made a phone call. This was 7:00 AM Eastern time. And this was an organization that had this breach gone public, would've made worldwide news. There would've been a very big impact because it would've taken a lot of their systems offline. >>Within the 30 minutes that local FBI office was on site said, we just saw this piece of malware last week, we have a decryptor for it from another organization who shared it with us. Here you go. And within 60 minutes, every system was back up and running. Our teams were able to respond and get that disseminated quickly. So efforts like that, I think the government has made a tremendous amount of headway into improving relationships. Is there always gonna be some tension between, you know, competing, you know, organizations? Sure. But I think that we're doing a whole lot to progress it, >>But governments will make exceptions in that case. Especially for something as critical as the example that you just gave and be able to, you know, do a reach around, if you will, on, on onerous regulations that, that ne aren't helpful in that situation, but certainly do a lot of good in terms of protecting privacy. >>Well, and I think there used to be exceptions made typically only for national security elements, right? And now you're seeing that expanding much more so, which I think is also positive. Right. >>Last question for you as we are wrapping up time here. What can organizations really do to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to, to threat actors? We've got internal external threats. What can they really do to just be ahead of that curve? Is that possible? >>Well, it is now, it's not an easy task so I'm not gonna, you know, trivialize it. But I think that one, having relationships with right organizations in advance always a good thing. That's a, everything from certainly a commercial relationships, but also your peers, right? There's all kinds of fantastic industry spec specific information sharing organizations. I think the biggest thing that impacts is having education across your executive team and testing regularly, right? Having a plan in place, testing it. And it's not just the security pieces of it, right? As security responders, we live these attacks every day, but it's making sure that your general counsel and your head of operations and your CEO knows what to do. Your board of directors, do they know what to do when they receive a phone call from Bloomberg, for example? Are they supposed supposed to answer? Do your employees know that those kind of communications in advance and training can be really critical and make or break a difference in an attack. >>That's a great point about the testing but also the communication that it really needs to be company wide. Everyone at every level needs to know how to react. Wendy, it's been so great having, >>Wait one last question. Sure. Do you have a favorite superhero growing up? >>Ooh, it's gotta be Wonder Woman. Yeah, >>Yeah, okay. Yeah, so cuz I'm always curious, there's not a lot of women in, in security in cyber. How'd you get into it? And many cyber pros like wanna save the world? >>Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I joined the Air Force, you know, I, I was a special agent doing computer crime investigations and that was a great job. And I learned about that from, we had an alumni day and all these alumni came in from the university and they were in flight suits and combat gear. And there was one woman who had long blonde flowing hair and a black suit and high heels and she was carrying a gun. What did she do? Because that's what I wanted do. >>Awesome. Love it. We >>Blonde >>Wonder Woman. >>Exactly. Wonder Woman. Wendy, it's been so great having you on the program. We, we will definitely be following unit 42 and all the great stuff that you guys are doing. Keep up the good >>Work. Thanks so much Lisa. Thank >>You. Day our pleasure. For our guest and Dave Valante, I'm Lisa Martin, live in Las Vegas at MGM Grand for Palo Alto Ignite, 22. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>As we've been reporting, the pandemic has called CSOs to really shift their spending priorities towards securing remote workers. Almost overnight. Zero trust has gone from buzzword to mandate. What's more as we wrote in our recent cybersecurity breaking analysis, not only Maseca pro secured increasingly distributed workforce, but now they have to be wary of software updates in the digital supply chain, including the very patches designed to protect them against cyber attacks. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Q conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome Derek manky. Who's chief security insights, and global threat alliances for four guard labs with fresh data from its global threat landscape report. Derek. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thanks so much for, for the invitation to speak. It's always a pleasure. Multicover yeah, >>You're welcome. So first I wonder if you could explain for the audience, what is for guard labs and what's its relationship to fortunate? >>Right. So 40 grand labs is, is our global sockets, our global threat intelligence operation center. It never sleeps, and this is the beat. Um, you know, it's, it's been here since inception at port in it. So it's it's 20, 21 years in the making, since Fortinet was founded, uh, we have built this in-house, uh, so we don't go yum technology. We built everything from the ground up, including creating our own training programs for our, our analysts. We're following malware, following exploits. We even have a unique program that I created back in 2006 to ethical hacking program. And it's a zero-day research. So we try to meet the hackers, the bad guys to their game. And we of course do that responsibly to work with vendors, to close schools and create virtual patches. Um, and, but, you know, so it's, it's everything from, uh, customer protection first and foremost, to following, uh, the threat landscape and cyber. It's very important to understand who they are, what they're doing, who they're, uh, what they're targeting, what tools are they using? >>Yeah, that's great. Some serious DNA and skills in that group. And it's, it's critical because like you said, you can, you can minimize the spread of those malware very, very quickly. So what, what now you have, uh, the global threat landscape report. We're going to talk about that, but what exactly is that? >>Right? So this a global threat landscape report, it's a summary of, uh, all, all the data that we collect over a period of time. So we released this, that biannually two times a year. Um, cyber crime is changing very fast, as you can imagine. So, uh, while we do release security blogs, and, uh, what we call threat signals for breaking security events, we have a lot of other vehicles to release threat intelligence, but this threat landscape report is truly global. It looks at all of our global data. So we have over 5 million censorship worldwide in 40 guard labs, we're processing. I know it seems like a very large amount, but North of a hundred billion, uh, threat events in just one day. And we have to take the task of taking all of that data and put that onto scale for half a year and compile that into something, um, that is, uh, the, you know, that that's digestible. That's a, a very tough task, as you can imagine, so that, you know, we have to work with a huge technologies back to machine learning and artificial intelligence automation. And of course our analyst view to do that. >>Yeah. So this year, of course, there's like the every year is a battle, but this year was an extra battle. Can you explain what you saw in terms of the hacker dynamics over the past? Let's say 12 months. I know you do this twice a year, but what trends did you see evolving throughout the year and what have you seen with the way that attackers have exploited this expanded attack surface outside of corporate network? >>Yeah, it was quite interesting last year. It certainly was not normal. Like we all say, um, and that was no exception for cybersecurity. You know, if we look at cyber criminals and how they pivoted and adapted to the scrap threat landscape, cyber cyber criminals are always trying to take advantage of the weakest link of the chain. They're trying to always prey off here and ride waves of global trends and themes. We've seen this before in, uh, natural disasters as an example, you know, um, trying to do charity kind of scams and campaigns. And they're usually limited to a region where that incident happened and they usually live about two to three weeks, maybe a month at the most. And then they'll move on to the next to the next trip. That's braking, of course, because COVID is so global and dominant. Um, we saw attacks coming in from, uh, well over 40 different languages as an example, um, in regions all across the world that wasn't lasting two to three weeks and it lasted for the better part of a year. >>And of course, what they're, they're using this as a vehicle, right? Not preying on the fear. They're doing everything from initial lockdown, uh, fishing. We were as COVID-19 movers to, um, uh, lay off notices then to phase one, reopenings all the way up to fast forward to where we are today with vaccine rollover development. So there's always that new flavor and theme that they were rolling out, but because it was so successful for them, they were able to, they didn't have to innovate too much, right. They didn't have to expand and shifted to new to new trends. And themes are really developed on new rats families as an example, or a new sophisticated malware. That was the first half of the year and the second half of the year. Um, of course people started to experience COVID fatigue, right? Um, people started to become, we did a lot of education around this. >>People started to become more aware of this threat. And so, um, cyber criminals have started to, um, as we expected, started to become more sophisticated with their attacks. We saw an expansion in different ransomware families. We saw more of a shift of focus on, on, um, uh, you know, targeting the digital supply chain as an example. And so that, that was, that was really towards Q4. Uh, so it, it was a long lived lead year with success on the Google themes, um, targeting healthcare as an example, a lot of, um, a lot of the organizations that were, you know, really in a vulnerable position, I would say >>So, okay. I want to clarify something because my assumption was that they actually did really increase the sophistication, but it sounds like that was kind of a first half trends. Not only did they have to adapt and not have to, but they adapt it to these new vulnerabilities. Uh, my sense was that when you talk about the digital supply chain, that that was a fairly sophisticated attack. Am I, am I getting that right? That they did their sort of their, their, their increased sophistication in the first half, and then they sort of deployed it, did it, uh, w what actually happened there from your data? >>Well, if we look at, so generally there's two types of attacks that we look at, we look at the, uh, the premeditated sophisticated attacks that can have, um, you know, a lot of ramp up work on their end, a lot of time developing the, the, the, the weaponization phase. So developing, uh, the exploits of the sophisticated malware that they're gonna use for the campaign reconnaissance, understanding the targets, where platforms are developed, um, the blueprinting that DNA of, of, of the supply chain, those take time. Um, in fact years, even if we look back to, um, uh, 10 plus years ago with the Stuxnet attacks, as an example that was on, uh, nuclear centrifuges, um, and that, that had four different zero-day weapons at the time. That was very sophisticated, that took over two years to develop as an example. So some of these can take years of time to develop, but they're, they're, uh, very specific in terms of the targets are going to go after obviously the ROI from their end. >>Uh, the other type of attack that we see is as ongoing, um, these broad, wide sweeping attacks, and the reality for those ones is they don't unfortunately need to be too sophisticated. And those ones were the ones I was talking about that were really just playing on the cool, the deem, and they still do today with the vaccine road and development. Uh, but, but it's really because they're just playing on, on, um, you know, social engineering, um, using, uh, topical themes. And in fact, the weapons they're using these vulnerabilities are from our research data. And this was highlighted actually the first pop landscape before last year, uh, on average were two to three years old. So we're not talking about fresh vulnerabilities. You've got to patch right away. I mean, these are things that should have been patched two years ago, but they're still unfortunately having success with that. >>So you mentioned stuck next Stuxnet as the former sort of example, of one of the types of attacks that you see. And I always felt like that was a watershed moment. One of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated attack that we'd ever seen. When I talk to CSOs about the recent government hack, they, they, they suggest I infer maybe they don't suggest it. I infer that it was of similar sophistication. It was maybe thousands of people working on this for years and years and years. Is that, is that accurate or not necessarily? >>Yeah, there's definitely a, there's definitely some comparisons there. Uh, you know, one of the largest things is, uh, both attacks used digital circuits certificate personation, so they're digitally signed. So, you know, of course that whole technology using cryptography is designed by design, uh, to say that, you know, this piece of software installed in your system, hassles certificate is coming from the source. It's legitimate. Of course, if that's compromised, that's all out of the window. And, um, yeah, this is what we saw in both attacks. In fact, you know, stocks in that they also had digitally designed, uh, certificates that were compromised. So when it gets to that level of students or, uh, sophistication, that means definitely that there's a target that there has been usually months of, of, uh, homework done by cyber criminals, for reconnaissance to be able to weaponize that. >>W w what did you see with respect to ransomware? What were the trends there over the past 12 months? I've heard some data and it's pretty scary, but what did you see? >>Yeah, so we're actually, ransomware is always the thorn in our side, and it's going to continue to be so, um, you know, in fact, uh, ransomware is not a new itself. It was actually first created in 1989, and they demanded ransom payments through snail mail. This was to appeal a box, obviously that, that, that didn't take off. Wasn't a successful on the internet was porn at the time. But if you look at it now, of course, over the last 10 years, really, that's where it ran. The ransomware model has been, uh, you know, lucrative, right? I mean, it's been, um, using, uh, by force encrypting data on systems, so that users had to, if they were forced to pay the ransom because they wanted access to their data back data was the target currency for ransomware. That's shifted now. And that's actually been a big pivotal over the last year or so, because again, before it was this let's cast a wide net, in fact, as many people as we can random, um, and try to see if we can hold some of their data for ransom. >>Some people that data may be valuable, it may not be valuable. Um, and that model still exists. Uh, and we see that, but really the big shift that we saw last year and the threat landscape before it was a shift to targeted rats. So again, the sophistication is starting to rise because they're not just going out to random data. They're going out to data that they know is valuable to large organizations, and they're taking that a step further now. So there's various ransomware families. We saw that have now reverted to extortion and blackmail, right? So they're taking that data, encrypting it and saying, unless you pay us as large sum of money, we're going to release this to the public or sell it to a buyer on the dark web. And of course you can imagine the amount of, um, you know, damages that can happen from that. The other thing we're seeing is, is a target of going to revenue services, right? So if they can cripple networks, it's essentially a denial of service. They know that the company is going to be bleeding, you know, X, millions of dollars a day, so they can demand Y million dollars of ransom payments, and that's effectively what's happening. So it's, again, becoming more targeted, uh, and more sophisticated. And unfortunately the ransom is going up. >>So they go to where the money is. And of course your job is to, it's a lower the ROI for them, a constant challenge. Um, we talked about some of the attack vectors, uh, that you saw this year that, that cyber criminals are targeting. I wonder if, if, you know, given the work from home, if things like IOT devices and cameras and, you know, thermostats, uh, with 75% of the work force at home, is this infrastructure more vulnerable? I guess, of course it is. But what did you see there in terms of attacks on those devices? >>Yeah, so, uh, um, uh, you know, unfortunately the attack surface as we call it, uh, so the amount of target points is expanding. It's not shifting, it's expanding. We still see, um, I saw, I mentioned earlier vulnerabilities from two years ago that are being used in some cases, you know, over the holidays where e-commerce means we saw e-commerce heavily under attack in e-commerce has spikes since last summer, right. It's been a huge amount of traffic increase everybody's shopping from home. And, uh, those vulnerabilities going after a shopping cart, plugins, as an example, are five to six years old. So we still have this theme of old vulnerabilities are still new in a sense being attacked, but we're also now seeing this complication of, yeah, as you said, IOT, uh, B roll out everywhere, the really quick shift to work from home. Uh, we really have to treat this as if you guys, as the, uh, distributed branch model for enterprise, right. >>And it's really now the secure branch. How do we take, um, um, you know, any of these devices on, on those networks and secure them, uh, because yeah, if you look at the, what we highlighted in our landscape report and the top 10 attacks that we're seeing, so hacking attacks hacking in tabs, this is who our IPS triggers. You know, we're seeing attempts to go after IOT devices. Uh, right now they're mostly, uh, favoring, uh, well in terms of targets, um, consumer grade routers. Uh, but they're also looking at, um, uh, DVR devices as an example for, uh, you know, home entertainment systems, uh, network attached storage as well, and IP security cameras, um, some of the newer devices, uh, what, the quote unquote smart devices that are now on, you know, virtual assistance and home networks. Uh, we actually released a predictions piece at the end of last year as well. So this is what we call the new intelligent edge. And that's what I think is we're really going to see this year in terms of what's ahead. Um, cause we always have to look ahead and prepare for that. But yeah, right now, unfortunately, the story is, all of this is still happening. IOT is being targeted. Of course they're being targeted because they're easy targets. Um, it's like for cybercriminals, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. There's not just one, but there's multiple vulnerabilities, security holes associated with these devices, easy entry points into networks. >>I mean, it's, um, I mean, attackers they're, they're highly capable. They're organized, they're well-funded they move fast, they're they're agile, uh, and they follow the money. As we were saying, uh, you, you mentioned, you know, co vaccines and, you know, big pharma healthcare, uh, where >>Did you see advanced, persistent >>Threat groups really targeting? Were there any patterns that emerged in terms of other industry types or organizations being targeted? >>Yeah. So just to be clear again, when we talk about AP teams, um, uh, advanced, specific correct group, the groups themselves they're targeting, these are usually the more sophisticated groups, of course. So going back to that theme, these are usually the target, the, um, the premeditated targeted attacks usually points to nation state. Um, sometimes of course there's overlap. They can be affiliated with cyber crime, cyber crime, uh, uh, groups are typically, um, looking at some other targets for ROI, uh, bio there's there's a blend, right? So as an example, if we're looking at the, uh, apt groups I had last year, absolutely. Number one I would say would be healthcare. Healthcare was one of those, and it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, very unfortunate, but obviously with the shift that was happening at a pop up medical facilities, there's a big, a rush to change networks, uh, for a good cause of course, but with that game, um, you know, uh, security holes and concerns the targets and, and that's what we saw IPT groups targeting was going after those and, and ransomware and the cyber crime shrine followed as well. Right? Because if you can follow, uh, those critical networks and crippled them on from cybercriminals point of view, you can, you can expect them to pay the ransom because they think that they need to buy in order to, um, get those systems back online. Uh, in fact, last year or two, unfortunately we saw the first, um, uh, death that was caused because of a denial of service attack in healthcare, right. Facilities were weren't available because of the cyber attack. Patients had to be diverted and didn't make it on the way. >>All right. Jericho, sufficiently bummed out. So maybe in the time remaining, we can talk about remediation strategies. You know, we know there's no silver bullet in security. Uh, but what approaches are you recommending for organizations? How are you consulting with folks? >>Sure. Yeah. So a couple of things, um, good news is there's a lot that we can do about this, right? And, um, and, and basic measures go a long way. So a couple of things just to get out of the way I call it housekeeping, cyber hygiene, but it's always worth reminding. So when we talk about keeping security patches up to date, we always have to talk about that because that is reality as et cetera, these, these vulnerabilities that are still being successful are five to six years old in some cases, the majority two years old. Um, so being able to do that, manage that from an organization's point of view, really treat the new work from home. I don't like to call it a work from home. So the reality is it's work from anywhere a lot of the times for some people. So really treat that as, as the, um, as a secure branch, uh, methodology, doing things like segmentations on network, secure wifi access, multi-factor authentication is a huge muscle, right? >>So using multi-factor authentication because passwords are dead, um, using things like, uh, XDR. So Xers is a combination of detection and response for end points. This is a mass centralized management thing, right? So, uh, endpoint detection and response, as an example, those are all, uh, you know, good security things. So of course having security inspection, that that's what we do. So good threat intelligence baked into your security solution. That's supported by labs angles. So, uh, that's, uh, you know, uh, antivirus, intrusion prevention, web filtering, sandbox, and so forth, but then it gets that that's the security stack beyond that it gets into the end user, right? Everybody has a responsibility. This is that supply chain. We talked about. The supply chain is, is, is a target for attackers attackers have their own supply chain as well. And we're also part of that supply chain, right? The end users where we're constantly fished for social engineering. So using phishing campaigns against employees to better do training and awareness is always recommended to, um, so that's what we can do, obviously that's, what's recommended to secure, uh, via the endpoints in the secure branch there's things we're also doing in the industry, um, to fight back against that with prime as well. >>Well, I, I want to actually talk about that and talk about ecosystems and collaboration, because while you have competitors, you all want the same thing. You, SecOps teams are like superheroes in my book. I mean, they're trying to save the world from the bad guys. And I remember I was talking to Robert Gates on the cube a couple of years ago, a former defense secretary. And I said, yeah, but don't, we have like the best security people and can't we go on the offensive and weaponize that ourselves. Of course, there's examples of that. Us. Government's pretty good at it, even though they won't admit it. But his answer to me was, yeah, we gotta be careful because we have a lot more to lose than many countries. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but how do you collaborate with whether it's the U S government or other governments or other other competitors even, or your ecosystem? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah. Th th this is what, this is what makes me tick. I love working with industry. I've actually built programs for 15 years of collaboration in the industry. Um, so, you know, we, we need, I always say we can't win this war alone. You actually hit on this point earlier, you talked about following and trying to disrupt the ROI of cybercriminals. Absolutely. That is our target, right. We're always looking at how we can disrupt their business model. Uh, and, and in order, there's obviously a lot of different ways to do that, right? So a couple of things we do is resiliency. That's what we just talked about increasing the security stack so that they go knocking on someone else's door. But beyond that, uh, it comes down to private, private sector collaborations. So, uh, we, we, uh, co-founder of the cyber threat Alliance in 2014 as an example, this was our fierce competitors coming in to work with us to share intelligence, because like you said, um, competitors in the space, but we need to work together to do the better fight. >>And so this is a Venn diagram. What's compared notes, let's team up, uh, when there's a breaking attack and make sure that we have the intelligence so that we can still remain competitive on the technology stack to gradation the solutions themselves. Uh, but let's, let's level the playing field here because cybercriminals moved out, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that there's no borders and they move with great agility. So, uh, that's one thing we do in the private private sector. Uh, there's also, uh, public private sector relationships, right? So we're working with Interpol as an example, Interfor project gateway, and that's when we find attribution. So it's not just the, what are these people doing like infrastructure, but who, who are they, where are they operating? What, what events tools are they creating? We've actually worked on cases that are led down to, um, uh, warrants and arrests, you know, and in some cases, one case with a $60 million business email compromise fraud scam, the great news is if you look at the industry as a whole, uh, over the last three to four months has been for take downs, a motet net Walker, uh, um, there's also IE Gregor, uh, recently as well too. >>And, and Ian Gregor they're actually going in and arresting the affiliates. So not just the CEO or the King, kind of these organizations, but the people who are distributing the ransomware themselves. And that was a unprecedented step, really important. So you really start to paint a picture of this, again, supply chain, this ecosystem of cyber criminals and how we can hit them, where it hurts on all angles. I've most recently, um, I've been heavily involved with the world economic forum. Uh, so I'm, co-author of a report from last year of the partnership on cyber crime. And, uh, this is really not just the pro uh, private, private sector, but the private and public sector working together. We know a lot about cybercriminals. We can't arrest them. Uh, we can't take servers offline from the data centers, but working together, we can have that whole, you know, that holistic effect. >>Great. Thank you for that, Derek. What if people want, want to go deeper? Uh, I know you guys mentioned that you do blogs, but are there other resources that, that they can tap? Yeah, absolutely. So, >>Uh, everything you can see is on our threat research blog on, uh, so 40 net blog, it's under expired research. We also put out, uh, playbooks, w we're doing blah, this is more for the, um, the heroes as he called them the security operation centers. Uh, we're doing playbooks on the aggressors. And so this is a playbook on the offense, on the offense. What are they up to? How are they doing that? That's on 40 guard.com. Uh, we also release, uh, threat signals there. So, um, we typically release, uh, about 50 of those a year, and those are all, um, our, our insights and views into specific attacks that are now >>Well, Derek Mackie, thanks so much for joining us today. And thanks for the work that you and your teams do. Very important. >>Thanks. It's yeah, it's a pleasure. And, uh, rest assured we will still be there 24 seven, three 65. >>Good to know. Good to know. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. We'll see you next time.

>>As we've been reporting, the pandemic has called CSOs to really shift their spending priorities towards securing remote workers. Almost overnight. Zero trust has gone from buzzword to mandate. What's more as we wrote in our recent cybersecurity breaking analysis, not only Maseca pro secured increasingly distributed workforce, but now they have to be wary of software updates in the digital supply chain, including the very patches designed to protect them against cyber attacks. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Q conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome Derek manky. Who's chief security insights, and global threat alliances for four guard labs with fresh data from its global threat landscape report. Derek. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thanks so much for, for the invitation to speak. It's always a pleasure. Multicover yeah, >>You're welcome. So first I wonder if you could explain for the audience, what is for guard labs and what's its relationship to fortunate? >>Right. So 40 grand labs is, is our global sockets, our global threat intelligence operation center. It never sleeps, and this is the beat. Um, you know, it's, it's been here since inception at port in it. So it's it's 20, 21 years in the making, since Fortinet was founded, uh, we have built this in-house, uh, so we don't go yum technology. We built everything from the ground up, including creating our own training programs for our, our analysts. We're following malware, following exploits. We even have a unique program that I created back in 2006 to ethical hacking program. And it's a zero-day research. So we try to meet the hackers, the bad guys to their game. And we of course do that responsibly to work with vendors, to close schools and create virtual patches. Um, and, but, you know, so it's, it's everything from, uh, customer protection first and foremost, to following, uh, the threat landscape and cyber. It's very important to understand who they are, what they're doing, who they're, uh, what they're targeting, what tools are they using? >>Yeah, that's great. Some serious DNA and skills in that group. And it's, it's critical because like you said, you can, you can minimize the spread of those malware very, very quickly. So what, what now you have, uh, the global threat landscape report. We're going to talk about that, but what exactly is that? >>Right? So this a global threat landscape report, it's a summary of, uh, all, all the data that we collect over a period of time. So we released this, that biannually two times a year. Um, cyber crime is changing very fast, as you can imagine. So, uh, while we do release security blogs, and, uh, what we call threat signals for breaking security events, we have a lot of other vehicles to release threat intelligence, but this threat landscape report is truly global. It looks at all of our global data. So we have over 5 million censorship worldwide in 40 guard labs, we're processing. I know it seems like a very large amount, but North of a hundred billion, uh, threat events in just one day. And we have to take the task of taking all of that data and put that onto scale for half a year and compile that into something, um, that is, uh, the, you know, that that's digestible. That's a, a very tough task, as you can imagine, so that, you know, we have to work with a huge technologies back to machine learning and artificial intelligence automation. And of course our analyst view to do that. >>Yeah. So this year, of course, there's like the every year is a battle, but this year was an extra battle. Can you explain what you saw in terms of the hacker dynamics over the past? Let's say 12 months. I know you do this twice a year, but what trends did you see evolving throughout the year and what have you seen with the way that attackers have exploited this expanded attack surface outside of corporate network? >>Yeah, it was quite interesting last year. It certainly was not normal. Like we all say, um, and that was no exception for cybersecurity. You know, if we look at cyber criminals and how they pivoted and adapted to the scrap threat landscape, cyber cyber criminals are always trying to take advantage of the weakest link of the chain. They're trying to always prey off here and ride waves of global trends and themes. We've seen this before in, uh, natural disasters as an example, you know, um, trying to do charity kind of scams and campaigns. And they're usually limited to a region where that incident happened and they usually live about two to three weeks, maybe a month at the most. And then they'll move on to the next to the next trip. That's braking, of course, because COVID is so global and dominant. Um, we saw attacks coming in from, uh, well over 40 different languages as an example, um, in regions all across the world that wasn't lasting two to three weeks and it lasted for the better part of a year. >>And of course, what they're, they're using this as a vehicle, right? Not preying on the fear. They're doing everything from initial lockdown, uh, fishing. We were as COVID-19 movers to, um, uh, lay off notices then to phase one, reopenings all the way up to fast forward to where we are today with vaccine rollover development. So there's always that new flavor and theme that they were rolling out, but because it was so successful for them, they were able to, they didn't have to innovate too much, right. They didn't have to expand and shifted to new to new trends. And themes are really developed on new rats families as an example, or a new sophisticated malware. That was the first half of the year and the second half of the year. Um, of course people started to experience COVID fatigue, right? Um, people started to become, we did a lot of education around this. >>People started to become more aware of this threat. And so, um, cyber criminals have started to, um, as we expected, started to become more sophisticated with their attacks. We saw an expansion in different ransomware families. We saw more of a shift of focus on, on, um, uh, you know, targeting the digital supply chain as an example. And so that, that was, that was really towards Q4. Uh, so it, it was a long lived lead year with success on the Google themes, um, targeting healthcare as an example, a lot of, um, a lot of the organizations that were, you know, really in a vulnerable position, I would say >>So, okay. I want to clarify something because my assumption was that they actually did really increase the sophistication, but it sounds like that was kind of a first half trends. Not only did they have to adapt and not have to, but they adapt it to these new vulnerabilities. Uh, my sense was that when you talk about the digital supply chain, that that was a fairly sophisticated attack. Am I, am I getting that right? That they did their sort of their, their, their increased sophistication in the first half, and then they sort of deployed it, did it, uh, w what actually happened there from your data? >>Well, if we look at, so generally there's two types of attacks that we look at, we look at the, uh, the premeditated sophisticated attacks that can have, um, you know, a lot of ramp up work on their end, a lot of time developing the, the, the, the weaponization phase. So developing, uh, the exploits of the sophisticated malware that they're gonna use for the campaign reconnaissance, understanding the targets, where platforms are developed, um, the blueprinting that DNA of, of, of the supply chain, those take time. Um, in fact years, even if we look back to, um, uh, 10 plus years ago with the Stuxnet attacks, as an example that was on, uh, nuclear centrifuges, um, and that, that had four different zero-day weapons at the time. That was very sophisticated, that took over two years to develop as an example. So some of these can take years of time to develop, but they're, they're, uh, very specific in terms of the targets are going to go after obviously the ROI from their end. >>Uh, the other type of attack that we see is as ongoing, um, these broad, wide sweeping attacks, and the reality for those ones is they don't unfortunately need to be too sophisticated. And those ones were the ones I was talking about that were really just playing on the cool, the deem, and they still do today with the vaccine road and development. Uh, but, but it's really because they're just playing on, on, um, you know, social engineering, um, using, uh, topical themes. And in fact, the weapons they're using these vulnerabilities are from our research data. And this was highlighted actually the first pop landscape before last year, uh, on average were two to three years old. So we're not talking about fresh vulnerabilities. You've got to patch right away. I mean, these are things that should have been patched two years ago, but they're still unfortunately having success with that. >>So you mentioned stuck next Stuxnet as the former sort of example, of one of the types of attacks that you see. And I always felt like that was a watershed moment. One of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated attack that we'd ever seen. When I talk to CSOs about the recent government hack, they, they, they suggest I infer maybe they don't suggest it. I infer that it was of similar sophistication. It was maybe thousands of people working on this for years and years and years. Is that, is that accurate or not necessarily? >>Yeah, there's definitely a, there's definitely some comparisons there. Uh, you know, one of the largest things is, uh, both attacks used digital circuits certificate personation, so they're digitally signed. So, you know, of course that whole technology using cryptography is designed by design, uh, to say that, you know, this piece of software installed in your system, hassles certificate is coming from the source. It's legitimate. Of course, if that's compromised, that's all out of the window. And, um, yeah, this is what we saw in both attacks. In fact, you know, stocks in that they also had digitally designed, uh, certificates that were compromised. So when it gets to that level of students or, uh, sophistication, that means definitely that there's a target that there has been usually months of, of, uh, homework done by cyber criminals, for reconnaissance to be able to weaponize that. >>W w what did you see with respect to ransomware? What were the trends there over the past 12 months? I've heard some data and it's pretty scary, but what did you see? >>Yeah, so we're actually, ransomware is always the thorn in our side, and it's going to continue to be so, um, you know, in fact, uh, ransomware is not a new itself. It was actually first created in 1989, and they demanded ransom payments through snail mail. This was to appeal a box, obviously that, that, that didn't take off. Wasn't a successful on the internet was porn at the time. But if you look at it now, of course, over the last 10 years, really, that's where it ran. The ransomware model has been, uh, you know, lucrative, right? I mean, it's been, um, using, uh, by force encrypting data on systems, so that users had to, if they were forced to pay the ransom because they wanted access to their data back data was the target currency for ransomware. That's shifted now. And that's actually been a big pivotal over the last year or so, because again, before it was this let's cast a wide net, in fact, as many people as we can random, um, and try to see if we can hold some of their data for ransom. >>Some people that data may be valuable, it may not be valuable. Um, and that model still exists. Uh, and we see that, but really the big shift that we saw last year and the threat landscape before it was a shift to targeted rats. So again, the sophistication is starting to rise because they're not just going out to random data. They're going out to data that they know is valuable to large organizations, and they're taking that a step further now. So there's various ransomware families. We saw that have now reverted to extortion and blackmail, right? So they're taking that data, encrypting it and saying, unless you pay us as large sum of money, we're going to release this to the public or sell it to a buyer on the dark web. And of course you can imagine the amount of, um, you know, damages that can happen from that. The other thing we're seeing is, is a target of going to revenue services, right? So if they can cripple networks, it's essentially a denial of service. They know that the company is going to be bleeding, you know, X, millions of dollars a day, so they can demand Y million dollars of ransom payments, and that's effectively what's happening. So it's, again, becoming more targeted, uh, and more sophisticated. And unfortunately the ransom is going up. >>So they go to where the money is. And of course your job is to, it's a lower the ROI for them, a constant challenge. Um, we talked about some of the attack vectors, uh, that you saw this year that, that cyber criminals are targeting. I wonder if, if, you know, given the work from home, if things like IOT devices and cameras and, you know, thermostats, uh, with 75% of the work force at home, is this infrastructure more vulnerable? I guess, of course it is. But what did you see there in terms of attacks on those devices? >>Yeah, so, uh, um, uh, you know, unfortunately the attack surface as we call it, uh, so the amount of target points is expanding. It's not shifting, it's expanding. We still see, um, I saw, I mentioned earlier vulnerabilities from two years ago that are being used in some cases, you know, over the holidays where e-commerce means we saw e-commerce heavily under attack in e-commerce has spikes since last summer, right. It's been a huge amount of traffic increase everybody's shopping from home. And, uh, those vulnerabilities going after a shopping cart, plugins, as an example, are five to six years old. So we still have this theme of old vulnerabilities are still new in a sense being attacked, but we're also now seeing this complication of, yeah, as you said, IOT, uh, B roll out everywhere, the really quick shift to work from home. Uh, we really have to treat this as if you guys, as the, uh, distributed branch model for enterprise, right. >>And it's really now the secure branch. How do we take, um, um, you know, any of these devices on, on those networks and secure them, uh, because yeah, if you look at the, what we highlighted in our landscape report and the top 10 attacks that we're seeing, so hacking attacks hacking in tabs, this is who our IPS triggers. You know, we're seeing attempts to go after IOT devices. Uh, right now they're mostly, uh, favoring, uh, well in terms of targets, um, consumer grade routers. Uh, but they're also looking at, um, uh, DVR devices as an example for, uh, you know, home entertainment systems, uh, network attached storage as well, and IP security cameras, um, some of the newer devices, uh, what, the quote unquote smart devices that are now on, you know, virtual assistance and home networks. Uh, we actually released a predictions piece at the end of last year as well. So this is what we call the new intelligent edge. And that's what I think is we're really going to see this year in terms of what's ahead. Um, cause we always have to look ahead and prepare for that. But yeah, right now, unfortunately, the story is, all of this is still happening. IOT is being targeted. Of course they're being targeted because they're easy targets. Um, it's like for cybercriminals, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. There's not just one, but there's multiple vulnerabilities, security holes associated with these devices, easy entry points into networks. >>I mean, it's, um, I mean, attackers they're, they're highly capable. They're organized, they're well-funded they move fast, they're they're agile, uh, and they follow the money. As we were saying, uh, you, you mentioned, you know, co vaccines and, you know, big pharma healthcare, uh, where >>Did you see advanced, persistent >>Threat groups really targeting? Were there any patterns that emerged in terms of other industry types or organizations being targeted? >>Yeah. So just to be clear again, when we talk about AP teams, um, uh, advanced, specific correct group, the groups themselves they're targeting, these are usually the more sophisticated groups, of course. So going back to that theme, these are usually the target, the, um, the premeditated targeted attacks usually points to nation state. Um, sometimes of course there's overlap. They can be affiliated with cyber crime, cyber crime, uh, uh, groups are typically, um, looking at some other targets for ROI, uh, bio there's there's a blend, right? So as an example, if we're looking at the, uh, apt groups I had last year, absolutely. Number one I would say would be healthcare. Healthcare was one of those, and it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, very unfortunate, but obviously with the shift that was happening at a pop up medical facilities, there's a big, a rush to change networks, uh, for a good cause of course, but with that game, um, you know, uh, security holes and concerns the targets and, and that's what we saw IPT groups targeting was going after those and, and ransomware and the cyber crime shrine followed as well. Right? Because if you can follow, uh, those critical networks and crippled them on from cybercriminals point of view, you can, you can expect them to pay the ransom because they think that they need to buy in order to, um, get those systems back online. Uh, in fact, last year or two, unfortunately we saw the first, um, uh, death that was caused because of a denial of service attack in healthcare, right. Facilities were weren't available because of the cyber attack. Patients had to be diverted and didn't make it on the way. >>All right. Jericho, sufficiently bummed out. So maybe in the time remaining, we can talk about remediation strategies. You know, we know there's no silver bullet in security. Uh, but what approaches are you recommending for organizations? How are you consulting with folks? >>Sure. Yeah. So a couple of things, um, good news is there's a lot that we can do about this, right? And, um, and, and basic measures go a long way. So a couple of things just to get out of the way I call it housekeeping, cyber hygiene, but it's always worth reminding. So when we talk about keeping security patches up to date, we always have to talk about that because that is reality as et cetera, these, these vulnerabilities that are still being successful are five to six years old in some cases, the majority two years old. Um, so being able to do that, manage that from an organization's point of view, really treat the new work from home. I don't like to call it a work from home. So the reality is it's work from anywhere a lot of the times for some people. So really treat that as, as the, um, as a secure branch, uh, methodology, doing things like segmentations on network, secure wifi access, multi-factor authentication is a huge muscle, right? >>So using multi-factor authentication because passwords are dead, um, using things like, uh, XDR. So Xers is a combination of detection and response for end points. This is a mass centralized management thing, right? So, uh, endpoint detection and response, as an example, those are all, uh, you know, good security things. So of course having security inspection, that that's what we do. So good threat intelligence baked into your security solution. That's supported by labs angles. So, uh, that's, uh, you know, uh, antivirus, intrusion prevention, web filtering, sandbox, and so forth, but then it gets that that's the security stack beyond that it gets into the end user, right? Everybody has a responsibility. This is that supply chain. We talked about. The supply chain is, is, is a target for attackers attackers have their own supply chain as well. And we're also part of that supply chain, right? The end users where we're constantly fished for social engineering. So using phishing campaigns against employees to better do training and awareness is always recommended to, um, so that's what we can do, obviously that's, what's recommended to secure, uh, via the endpoints in the secure branch there's things we're also doing in the industry, um, to fight back against that with prime as well. >>Well, I, I want to actually talk about that and talk about ecosystems and collaboration, because while you have competitors, you all want the same thing. You, SecOps teams are like superheroes in my book. I mean, they're trying to save the world from the bad guys. And I remember I was talking to Robert Gates on the cube a couple of years ago, a former defense secretary. And I said, yeah, but don't, we have like the best security people and can't we go on the offensive and weaponize that ourselves. Of course, there's examples of that. Us. Government's pretty good at it, even though they won't admit it. But his answer to me was, yeah, we gotta be careful because we have a lot more to lose than many countries. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but how do you collaborate with whether it's the U S government or other governments or other other competitors even, or your ecosystem? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah. Th th this is what, this is what makes me tick. I love working with industry. I've actually built programs for 15 years of collaboration in the industry. Um, so, you know, we, we need, I always say we can't win this war alone. You actually hit on this point earlier, you talked about following and trying to disrupt the ROI of cybercriminals. Absolutely. That is our target, right. We're always looking at how we can disrupt their business model. Uh, and, and in order, there's obviously a lot of different ways to do that, right? So a couple of things we do is resiliency. That's what we just talked about increasing the security stack so that they go knocking on someone else's door. But beyond that, uh, it comes down to private, private sector collaborations. So, uh, we, we, uh, co-founder of the cyber threat Alliance in 2014 as an example, this was our fierce competitors coming in to work with us to share intelligence, because like you said, um, competitors in the space, but we need to work together to do the better fight. >>And so this is a Venn diagram. What's compared notes, let's team up, uh, when there's a breaking attack and make sure that we have the intelligence so that we can still remain competitive on the technology stack to gradation the solutions themselves. Uh, but let's, let's level the playing field here because cybercriminals moved out, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that there's no borders and they move with great agility. So, uh, that's one thing we do in the private private sector. Uh, there's also, uh, public private sector relationships, right? So we're working with Interpol as an example, Interfor project gateway, and that's when we find attribution. So it's not just the, what are these people doing like infrastructure, but who, who are they, where are they operating? What, what events tools are they creating? We've actually worked on cases that are led down to, um, uh, warrants and arrests, you know, and in some cases, one case with a $60 million business email compromise fraud scam, the great news is if you look at the industry as a whole, uh, over the last three to four months has been for take downs, a motet net Walker, uh, um, there's also IE Gregor, uh, recently as well too. >>And, and Ian Gregor they're actually going in and arresting the affiliates. So not just the CEO or the King, kind of these organizations, but the people who are distributing the ransomware themselves. And that was a unprecedented step, really important. So you really start to paint a picture of this, again, supply chain, this ecosystem of cyber criminals and how we can hit them, where it hurts on all angles. I've most recently, um, I've been heavily involved with the world economic forum. Uh, so I'm, co-author of a report from last year of the partnership on cyber crime. And, uh, this is really not just the pro uh, private, private sector, but the private and public sector working together. We know a lot about cybercriminals. We can't arrest them. Uh, we can't take servers offline from the data centers, but working together, we can have that whole, you know, that holistic effect. >>Great. Thank you for that, Derek. What if people want, want to go deeper? Uh, I know you guys mentioned that you do blogs, but are there other resources that, that they can tap? Yeah, absolutely. So, >>Uh, everything you can see is on our threat research blog on, uh, so 40 net blog, it's under expired research. We also put out, uh, playbooks, w we're doing blah, this is more for the, um, the heroes as he called them the security operation centers. Uh, we're doing playbooks on the aggressors. And so this is a playbook on the offense, on the offense. What are they up to? How are they doing that? That's on 40 guard.com. Uh, we also release, uh, threat signals there. So, um, we typically release, uh, about 50 of those a year, and those are all, um, our, our insights and views into specific attacks that are now >>Well, Derek Mackie, thanks so much for joining us today. And thanks for the work that you and your teams do. Very important. >>Thanks. It's yeah, it's a pleasure. And, uh, rest assured we will still be there 24 seven, three 65. >>Good to know. Good to know. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. We'll see you next time.

>> From "The Cube studios" in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This, is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube Virtual conversation. I'm Lisa Martin and I'm excited to be talking to one of our cube alumni again, very socially distant, Derek Manky joins me the chief security insights and global for alliances, Fortinet's FortiGuard labs, Derek it's great to see you, even though virtually >> Yep, better safe better safe these days, right? But yeah, it's great to see you again and um I'm really looking forward to a great conversation, as always. >> Yeah! So Wow Has a lot changed since I last saw you? I-I think that's an epic understatement.. But each year we talk with you about the upcoming What's coming up in the threat landscape, what you guys are seeing Some of the attack trends. What are some of the things that you've seen in this very eventful year since we last spoke? >> Yeah.. a lot of a lot of things.. um.. Obviously.. uh.. with the pandemic there has been this big shift in landscape, right? So particularly uh Q3 Q4. So the last half of the year uh now we have a lot of things that were traditionally in corporate safeguards um you know, actual workstations, laptops that were sitting within networks and perimeters of-of organizations, that have obviously moved to work from home. And So, with that, comes a lot of new a-attack opportunities Um We track as, you know, threat until at 40 minutes, so 40 guard labs on a daily basis. And.. uh.. we are clearly seeing that and we're seeing a huge rise in things like um IOT targets, being the number one attacks, so consumer grade routers, um IOT devices, like printers and network attached storage. Those are um some of the most, favorite attack vehicles that cyber criminals are using to get into the-those devices. Of course, once they get in those devices, they can then move, laterally to compromise the..uh corporate laptop as an example. So those are-are very concerning The other thing has been that email that traditionally has been our number one um Another favorite attack platform always has! It's not going away but for the first time this year in.. um in about September, the second half, we saw a web based attacks taking priority for attackers and that's because of this new working environment. A lot of people I'm serving the websites from Again, these devices that were, not, were previously within Um you know, organizations email security is centralized a lot of the times but the web security always isn't. So that's another another shift that we've seen. We're now in the full-blown midst of the online shopping season um action and shopping season is almost every day now (laughter) since this summer >> Yep.. Yep.. >> And we've clearly seen that And we- Just from September up to October we saw over a trillion, not a billion, but a trillion new flows to shopping websites uh In just one month Um So that can- than number continues to rise and continues to rising quickly. >> Yeah. So the- the expanding threat landscape I've talked to a number of Companies the last few months that we're in this situation where it's suddenly It was a maybe 100% onsite workforce now going to work from home taking uh either desktops from uh their offices or using personal devices and that was a huge challenge that we were talking about with respect to endpoint and laptop security But interesting that you- you're seeing now this web security, I know phishing emails are getting more personal but the fact that um That website attacks are going up What are some of the things that you think, especially yo-you bring up a point we are we are now and maybe even s- more supercharged e-commerce season. How can businesses prepare a-and become proactive to defend against some of these things that, since now the threat surface is even bigger? >> Yeah. Multi-pronged approach. You know, Lisa, like we always say that, first of all, it's just like we have physical distancing, cyber distancing, just like we're doing now on this call. But same thing for reuse. I think there's always a false sense of security, right? When you're just in the home office, doing some browsing to a site, you really have to understand that these sites just by touching, literally touching it by going to the URL and clicking on that link you can get infected that easily. We're seeing that, there's a lot of these attacks being driven So, education, there's a lot of free programs. We have one on Fortinet information security awareness training. That is something that we continually need to hone the skills of end users first of all, so that's an easy win I would say, to my eyes in terms of organizations, but then this multi-pronged approach, right? So things like having EDR endpoint detection response, and being able to manage those end users while they're on on their devices at home Being able to have security and making sure those are up to date in terms of patches. So centralized management is important, two factor authentication, or multi-factor authentication Also equally as important. Doing things like network segmentation. For end users and the devices too. So there's a lot of these Things that you look at the risk that's associated The risk is always way higher than the investment upfront in terms of hours, in terms of security platforms. So the good thing is there's a lot of Solutions out there and it doesn't have to be complicated. >> That's good because we have enough complication everywhere else. But you bring up a point, you know, about humans, about education. We're kind of always that weakest link, but so many of us, now that are home, have distractions going on all around. So you might be going, "I've got to do some bill pay and go onto your bank" without thinking that that's that's now a threat landscape. What are some of the things that you're seeing that you think we're going to face in 2021, which is just around the corner? >> Yeah so So we're just talking about those IOT devices They're the main culprit right now. They can continue to be for a while We have this new class of threat emerging technology, which is edge computing. So people always talked about the perimeter of the perimeter being dead in other words, not just building up a wall on the outside, but understanding what's inside, right? That's been the case of IOT, but now edge computing is the emerging technology The main difference You know, we say, is that the edge devices are virtual assistant is the best example I could give, right? That, that users will be aware of in-home networks. Because these devices, traditionally, have more processing power, they handle more data, they have more access and privilege to devices like things like security systems, lights, as an example Beyond home networks, these edge devices are also As an example, being put into military and defense into critical infrastructure, field units for oil and gas and electricity as an example. So this is the new emerging threat, more processing power, more access and privilege, smarter decisions that are being made on those devices Those devices, are going to be targets for cyber criminals. And that's something, I think next year, we're going to see a lot of because it's a Bigger reward to the cyber criminal if they can get into it. And So targeting the edge is going to be a big thing. I think there's going to be a new class of threats. I'm calling these, I haven't heard this coined in the industry yet, but I'm calling these or "EAT"s or "Edge Access Trojans" because that's what it is, they compromise these devices. They can then control and get access to the data. If you think of a virtual assistant, and somebody that can actually compromise that device, think about that data. Voice data that's flowing through those devices that they can then use as a cleverly engineered, you know, attack a social engineering attack to phish a user as an example. >> Wow! I never thought about it from that perspective before Do you think, with all the talk about 5G, and what's coming with 5G, is that going to be an accelerator of some of these trends? Of some of these "EAT"s that you talk about? >> Yeah, definitely. Yeah So 5G is just a conduit. It's an accelerator. Absolutely um Catalyst called, if you will, It's here. Um, it's been deployed, not worldwide, but in many regions, it's going to continue to be 5G is all about, um, speed.. Um right? And so if you think about how swiftly these attacks are moving, you be abl- you need to be able to keep up with that from a defense standpoint, um Threats move without borders, they move without Uh, uh, Unfortunately, without restriction a lot of the time, right? Cyber crime has no borders. Um, the-they don't have rules, or if they have, they don't care about rules (laughter) So break those rules. So they are able to move quickly, right? And that's th- the problem with 5G, of course, is that these devices now can communicate quicker, they can launch even larger scale things like "DDOS", "Distributed Denial Of Service attacks". And That is, is a very big threat. And it also allows the other thing about 5G, Lisa, is that it allows.. um.. Peer to peer connectivity too. Right? So it's like Bluetooth, Um, Bluetooth's um enhanced in a sense, because now you have devices that interact with each other as well, by interacting with each other Um that also uh, you know, what are they talking about? What data are they passing? That's a whole new security inspection point that we need to And that's what I mean about this.. Um that's just It reconfirms that the.. Perimeters that. >> Right. Something we've been talking about, as you said for a while, but That's some pretty hard hitting evidence that it is, indeed, a thing of the past Something that we've talked to you about - with you in the past is Swarm attacks. Ho- What's, What's going on there? How are they progressing? >> Yeah, so this is a real threat, but there's good news, bad news. The Good news is this is a long progressing threat, which means we have more time to prepare. Bad news is we have seen developments in terms of weaponizing this, It's like anything.. Swarm is a tool. It can be as good.. DARPA, as an example, has invested a lot into this from military research, it's all around us now in terms of good applications things like for redundancy, right? Robotics, as an example, there's a lot of good things that come from Swarm technology, but.. There's use for If it's weaponized, It can have some very scary prospects. And that's what we're starting to see. There's a new botnet that was created this year. It is called the "HTH" this is written in Golang. So it's a language that basically allows it to infect any number of devices. It's not just your PC Right? It's the same, it's the same virus, but it can morph into all these different platforms, devices, whether it's a, an IOT device, an edge device But the main, characteristic of this is that it's able to actually have communication. They built a communication protocol into it. So the devices can pass files between each other, talk to each other They don't have a machine learning models yet, so in other words, they're not quote-in-quote "smart" yet, but that's coming. Once that intelligence starts getting baked in, then we have the weaponized Swarm technology And what this means, is that you know, when you have those devices that are making decisions on their own, talking to each other >> A: they're harder to kill. You take one down, another one takes its place. >> B: um They are able to move very swiftly, especially when that piggybacking leveraging on things like 5G. >> So . the I'm just blown away at all these things that you're talking about They are so So talk about how companies, and even individuals, can defend against this and become proactive. As we know one of the things we know about 2020 is all the uncertainty, we're going to continue to see uncertainty, but we also know that we- there's expectation.. globally, that a good amount of people are going to be working from home and connecting to corporate networks for a very long time. So, how can companies and people become proactive against these threats? >> Yes People process procedures and technology. So, we talked, as I really looked at this as a stacked approach, first of all, threats, as it is said, they're becoming quicker, the attack surface is larger, you need threat intelligence visibility This comes down to security platforms from a technology piece. So a security driven networking, AI driven security operations Centers These are new. But it's, it's becoming, as you can imagine, when we talked about critical, to fill that gap, to be able to move as quickly as the attackers you need to be able to use intelligent technology on your end. So people are just too slow. But we can still use people from the process, you know, making sure You know, Trying to understand what the risk is. So looking at threat intelligence reports, we put out weekly threat intelligence briefs as an example of as Fortiguard Labs, to be able to understand what the threats are, how to respond to those, how to prioritize them and then put the proper security measures in place. So, there are absolutely relevant technologies that exist today, And in fact now I think is the time to really get those in deployment before this becomes worse, as we're talking about. And then as I said earlier, there's also free things that can be just part of our daily lives, right? So we don't have this false sense of security. So understanding that that threat is real following up on the threat and being on doing education There's phishing services Again, phishing can be a good tool when it's used in a non-malicious way, to test people's skills sets as an example. So all of that combined is But the biggest thing is definitely relying on things like machine learning, artificial intelligence, to be able to work at speed with these threats. >> Right. So, you also have global threat alliances under your portfolio. Talk to me about how 40 net is working with global Alliance partners to fight this growing attack surface. >> Yeah. So this is the ecosystem. Every, every organization, whether it's private or public sector, has a different role to play in essence, right? So you look at things in the public sector, you have law enforcement, they're focused on attribution, so when we look at cyber crime, and if we find It's the hardest thing to do, but if we find out who these cyber criminals are, we can bring them to justice. Right? Our whole goal is to make it more expensive for the cyber criminals to operate, So by doing this, if we work with law enforcement and it leads to a successful arrest and prosecution, because we've done it in the past, that takes them off line to hit somewhere it hurts Law enforcement will typically work with intelligence leads to freeze assets, as an example from maybe ransom attacks that are happening. So that's one aspect, but then you have other things like working with national computer emergency response. So disrupting cyber crime, we work with national series. If we know that, you know, the bad guys are hosting stolen data or communication infrastructure in public, you know, servers, we can work with them to actually disrupt that, to take those servers offline. Then you have the private space. So this, you know Fortinet we're a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance. I'm on the steering committee there. And this is working with even competitors around in our space where we can share quickly up-to-date intelligence on, on attackers. We remain competitive on the technology itself, but, you know, we're working together to actually share as much as we know about the bad guys. And recently we're also a founding member of the "Center for Cyber Security", "C for C" with World Economic Forum. And This is another crucial effort that is basically trying to bridge all of that. To mend all of that together, right? Law enforcement, prosecutors, security vendors, intelligence organizations, all under one roof because we really do need that. It's an entire ecosystem to make this an effective fight. So it's, it's interesting because a lot of people, I don't think see what's happening behind the scenes a lot of the times, but there is a tremendous effort globally that's happening between all the players. So that's really good news. And the industry piece is something close to my heart. I've been involved in a lot of time and we continue to support. >> That's exciting. And that's something that is, you know, unfortunately, so very, very needed and will continue to be as emerging technologies evolve and we get to use them for good things. And to your point, that bad actors also get to take advantage of that for nefarious things as well. Derek it's always great to have you on the program, any particular things on the 40 net website that you would point viewers to to learn more about like the 20, 20 front landscape? >> Sure. You can always check out our blogs, So it's on blogged@fortynet.com, under "Threat Research", As I said on 40 guard.com, we also have our playbooks on there. We have podcasts, we have our updated threat intelligence briefs too. So those are always great to check out and just be rest assured that, you know, everything I've been talking about, we're doing a lot of that heavy lift on the backend. So by having working with managing security service providers and having all this intelligence baked in, organizations don't have to go and have a huge OPEX by you know, hiring, you know, trying to create a massive security center on their own. I mean, it's about this technology working together and that's that's what we're here for, its we can ask what do you guard lapse? >> Awesome Derek, thank you so much for joining me today in this Cube Conversation. Lots of exciting stuff going on at 40 net and 40 guard labs as always, which we expect, it's been great to have you. Thank you. >> It's a pleasure. Thanks Lisa. >> For Derek Manky. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Virtual Cube.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation, >>Everyone. Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm John for host of the Cube here in the Cubes Palo Alto studios during the co vid crisis. Square Quarantine with our crew, but we got the remote interviews. Got great to get great guests here from 44 to guard Fortinet, 40 Guard Labs, Derek Manky chief Security Insights and Global Threat alliances. At 14 it's 40 guard labs and, um, are Lakhani. Who's the lead researcher for the Guard Labs. Guys, great to see you. Derek. Good to see you again. Um, are you meet you? >>Hey, it's it's it's been a while and that it happened so fast, >>it just seems, are say it was just the other day. Derek, we've done a couple interviews in between. A lot of flow coming out of Florida net for the guards. A lot of action, certainly with co vid everyone's pulled back home. The bad actors taking advantage of the situation. The surface areas increased really is the perfect storm for security. Uh, in terms of action, bad actors are at all time high new threats here is going on. Take us through what you guys were doing. What's your team makeup look like? What are some of the roles and you guys were seeing on your team? And how's that transcend to the market? >>Yeah, sure, Absolutely. So you're right. I mean, like, you know, like I was saying earlier this this is all this always happens fast and furious. We couldn't do this without, you know, a world class team at 40 guard labs eso we've grown our team now to over 235 globally. There's different rules within the team. You know, if we look 20 years ago, the rules used to be just very pigeonholed into, say, anti virus analysis. Right now we have Thio account for when we're looking at threats. We have to look at that growing attack surface. We have to look at where these threats coming from. How frequently are they hitting? What verticals are they hitting? You know what regions? What are the particular techniques? Tactics, procedures, You know, we have threat. This is the world of threat Intelligence, Of course. Contextualizing that information and it takes different skill sets on the back end, and a lot of people don't really realize the behind the scenes. You know what's happening on bears. A lot of magic happen not only from what we talked about before in our last conversation from artificial intelligence and machine learning, that we do a 40 yard labs and automation, but the people. And so today we want to focus on the people on and talk about you know how on the back ends, we approach a particular threat. We're going to talk to the world, a ransom and ransomware. Look at how we dissect threats. How correlate that how we use tools in terms of threat hunting as an example, And then how we actually take that to that last mile and and make it actionable so that, you know, customers are protected. How we share that information with Keith, right until sharing partners. But again it comes down to the people. We never have enough people in the industry. There's a big shortages, we know, but it it's a really key critical element, and we've been building these training programs for over a decade within 40 guard lab. So you know, you know, John, this this to me is why, exactly why, I always say, and I'm sure Americans share this to that. There's never a dull day in the office. I know we hear that all the time, but I think today you know, all the viewers really get a new idea of why that is, because this is very dynamic. And on the back end, there's a lot of things that doing together our hands dirty with this, >>you know, the old expression started playing Silicon Valley is if you're in the arena, that's where the action and it's different than sitting in the stands watching the game. You guys are certainly in that arena. And, you know, we've talked and we cover your your threat report that comes out, Um, frequently. But for the folks that aren't in the weeds on all the nuances of security, can you kind of give the 101 ransomware. What's going on? What's the state of the ransomware situation? Um, set the stage because that's still continues to be a threat. I don't go a week, but I don't read a story about another ransomware and then it leaks out. Yeah, they paid 10 million in Bitcoin or something like I mean, this Israel. That's a real ongoing threat. What is it, >>quite a bit? Yeah, eso I'll give sort of the one on one and then maybe capacity toe mark, who's on the front lines dealing with this every day. You know, if we look at the world of I mean, first of all, the concept to ransom, obviously you have people that that has gone extended way, way before, you know, cybersecurity. Right? Um, in the world of physical crime s Oh, of course. You know the world's first ransom, where viruses actually called PC cyborg. This is in 1989. The ransom payment was demanded to appeal box from leave. It was Panama City at the time not to effective on floppy disk. Very small audience. Not a big attack surface. I didn't hear much about it for years. Um, you know, in really it was around 2000 and 10. We started to see ransomware becoming prolific, and what they did was somewhat cybercriminals. Did was shift on success from ah, fake antivirus software model, which was, you know, popping up a whole bunch of, you know said your computer is infected with 50 or 60 viruses. Chaos will give you an anti virus solution, Which was, of course, fake. You know, people started catching on. You know, the giggles up people caught onto that. So they weren't making a lot of money selling this project software. Uh, enter Ransomware. And this is where ransomware really started to take hold because it wasn't optional to pay for the software. It was mandatory almost for a lot of people because they were losing their data. They couldn't reverse engineer the current. Uh, the encryption kind of decrypt it with any universal tool. Ransomware today is very rigid. We just released our threat report for the first half of 2020. And we saw we've seen things like master boot record nbr around somewhere. This is persistent. It sits before your operating system when you boot up your computer. So it's hard to get rid of, um, very strong. Um, you know, public by the key cryptography that's being so each victim is infected with the different key is an example. The list goes on, and you know I'll save that for for the demo today. But that's basically it's It's very it's prolific and we're seeing shit. Not only just ransomware attacks for data, we're now starting to see ransom for extortion, for targeted ransom cases that we're going after, you know, critical business. Essentially, it's like a D O s holding revenue streams around too. So the ransom demands were getting higher because of this is Well, it's complicated. >>Yeah, I was mentioning, Omar, I want you to weigh in. I mean, 10 million is a lot we reported earlier this month. Garment was the company that was act I t guy completely locked down. They pay 10 million. Um, garment makes all those devices and a Z. We know this is impacting That's real numbers. So I mean, it's another little ones, but for the most part, it's new. It's, you know, pain in the butt Thio full on business disruption and extortion. Can you explain how it all works before I got it? Before we go to the demo, >>you know, you're you're absolutely right. It is a big number, and a lot of organizations are willing to pay that number to get their data back. Essentially their organization and their business is at a complete standstill. When they don't pay, all their files are inaccessible to them. Ransomware in general, what does end up from a very basic or review is it basically makes your files not available to you. They're encrypted. They have a essentially a pass code on them that you have to have the correct pass code to decode them. Ah, lot of times that's in the form of a program or actually a physical password you have type in. But you don't get that access to get your files back unless you pay the ransom. Ah, lot of corporations these days, they are not only paying the ransom, they're actually negotiating with the criminals as well. They're trying to say, Oh, you want 10 million? How about four million? Sometimes that it goes on as well, but it's Ah, it's something that organizations know that if they don't have the proper backups and the Attackers are getting smart, they're trying to go after the backups as well. They're trying to go after your duplicate files, so sometimes you don't have a choice, and organizations will will pay the ransom >>and it's you know they're smart. There's a business they know the probability of buy versus build or pay versus rebuild, so they kind of know where to attack. They know the tactics. The name is vulnerable. It's not like just some kitty script thing going on. This is riel system fistic ated stuff. It's and it's and this highly targeted. Can you talk about some use cases there and what's goes on with that kind of attack? >>Absolutely. The cybercriminals are doing reconnaissance. They're trying to find out as much as they can about their victims. And what happens is they're trying to make sure that they can motivate their victims in the fastest way possible to pay the ransom as well. Eh? So there's a lot of attacks going on. We usually we're finding now is ransomware is sometimes the last stage of an attack, so an attacker may go into on organization. They may already be taking data out of that organization. They may be stealing customer data P I, which is personal, identifiable information such as Social Security numbers or or driver's licenses or credit card information. Once they've done their entire attack, once they've gone, everything they can Ah, lot of times their end stage. There last attack is ransomware, and they encrypt all the files on the system and try and try and motivate the victim to pay as fast as possible and as much as possible as well. >>You know, it's interesting. I thought of my buddy today. It's like casing the joint. They check it out. They do their re kon reconnaissance. They go in, identify what's the move that's move to make. How to extract the most out of the victim in this case, Target. Um, and it really I mean, it's just go on a tangent, you know? Why don't we have the right to bear our own arms? Why can't we fight back? I mean, the end of the day, Derek, this is like, Who's protecting me? I mean, >>e do >>what? To protect my own, build my own army, or does the government help us? I mean, that's at some point, I got a right to bear my own arms here, right? I mean, this is the whole security paradigm. >>Yeah, so I mean, there's a couple of things, right? So first of all, this is exactly why we do a lot of that. I was mentioning the skills shortage and cyber cyber security professionals. Example. This is why we do a lot of the heavy lifting on the back end. Obviously, from a defensive standpoint, you obviously have the red team blue team aspect. How do you first, Um, no. There is what is to fight back by being defensive as well, too, and also by, you know, in the world that threat intelligence. One of the ways that we're fighting back is not necessarily by going and hacking the bad guys, because that's illegal in jurisdictions, right? But how we can actually find out who these people are, hit them where it hurts. Freeze assets go after money laundering that works. You follow the cash transactions where it's happening. This is where we actually work with key law enforcement partners such as Inter Pool is an example. This is the world, the threat intelligence. That's why we're doing a lot of that intelligence work on the back end. So there's other ways toe actually go on the offense without necessarily weaponizing it per se right like he's using, you know, bearing your own arms, Aziz said. There's different forms that people may not be aware of with that and that actually gets into the world of, you know, if you see attacks happening on your system, how you how you can use security tools and collaborate with threat intelligence? >>Yeah, I think that I think that's the key. I think the key is these new sharing technologies around collective intelligence is gonna be, ah, great way to kind of have more of an offensive collective strike. But I think fortifying the defense is critical. I mean, that's there's no other way to do that. >>Absolutely. I mean the you know, we say that's almost every week, but it's in simplicity. Our goal is always to make it more expensive for the cyber criminal to operate. And there's many ways to do that right you could be could be a pain to them by by having a very rigid, hard and defense. That means that if if it's too much effort on their end, I mean, they have roos and their in their sense, right, too much effort on there, and they're gonna go knocking somewhere else. Um, there's also, you know, a zay said things like disruption, so ripping infrastructure offline that cripples them. Yeah, it's wack a mole they're going to set up somewhere else. But then also going after people themselves, Um, again, the cash networks, these sorts of things. So it's sort of a holistic approach between anything. >>Hey, it's an arms race. Better ai better cloud scale always helps. You know, it's a ratchet game. Okay, tomorrow I want to get into this video. It's of ransomware four minute video. I'd like you to take us through you to lead you to read. Researcher, >>take us >>through this video and, uh, explain what we're looking at. Let's roll the video. >>All right? Sure s. So what we have here is we have the victims. That's top over here. We have a couple of things on this. Victims that stop. We have ah, batch file, which is essentially going to run the ransom where we have the payload, which is the code behind the ransomware. And then we have files in this folder, and this is where you typically find user files and, ah, really world case. This would be like Microsoft Microsoft Word documents or your Power point presentations. Over here, we just have a couple of text files that we've set up we're going to go ahead and run the ransomware and sometimes Attackers. What they do is they disguise this like they make it look like a like, important word document. They make it look like something else. But once you run, the ransomware usually get a ransom message. And in this case, the ransom message says your files are encrypted. Uh, please pay this money to this Bitcoin address. That obviously is not a real Bitcoin address that usually they look a little more complicated. But this is our fake Bitcoin address, but you'll see that the files now are encrypted. You cannot access them. They've been changed. And unless you pay the ransom, you don't get the files. Now, as the researchers, we see files like this all the time. We see ransomware all the all the time. So we use a variety of tools, internal tools, custom tools as well as open source tools. And what you're seeing here is open source tool is called the cuckoo sandbox, and it shows us the behavior of the ransomware. What exactly is a ransom we're doing in this case? You can see just clicking on that file launched a couple of different things that launched basically a command execute herbal, a power shell. It launched our windows shell and then it did things on the file. It basically had registry keys. It had network connections. It changed the disk. So this kind of gives us behind the scenes. Look at all the processes that's happening on the ransomware and just that one file itself. Like I said, there's multiple different things now what we want to do As researchers, we want to categorize this ransomware into families. We wanna try and determine the actors behind that. So we dump everything we know in the ransomware in the central databases. And then we mind these databases. What we're doing here is we're actually using another tool called malt ego and, uh, use custom tools as well as commercial and open source tools. But but this is a open source and commercial tool. But what we're doing is we're basically taking the ransomware and we're asking malty, go to look through our database and say, like, do you see any like files? Or do you see any types of incidences that have similar characteristics? Because what we want to do is we want to see the relationship between this one ransomware and anything else we may have in our system because that helps us identify maybe where the ransom that's connecting to where it's going thio other processes that may be doing. In this case, we can see multiple I P addresses that are connected to it so we can possibly see multiple infections weaken block different external websites. If we can identify a command and control system, we can categorize this to a family. And sometimes we can even categorize this to a threat actor that has claimed responsibility for it. Eso It's essentially visualizing all the connections and the relationship between one file and everything else we have in our database in this example. Off course, we put this in multiple ways. We can save these as reports as pdf type reports or, you know, usually HTML or other searchable data that we have back in our systems. And then the cool thing about this is this is available to all our products, all our researchers, all our specialty teams. So when we're researching botnets when we're researching file based attacks when we're researching, um, you know, I P reputation We have a lot of different IOC's or indicators of compromise that we can correlate where attacks goes through and maybe even detective new types of attacks as well. >>So the bottom line is you got the tools using combination of open source and commercial products. Toe look at the patterns of all ransomware across your observation space. Is that right? >>Exactly. I should you like a very simple demo. It's not only open source and commercial, but a lot of it is our own custom developed products as well. And when we find something that works, that logic that that technique, we make sure it's built into our own products as well. So our own customers have the ability to detect the same type of threats that we're detecting as well. At four of our labs intelligence that we acquire that product, that product of intelligence, it's consumed directly by our projects. >>Also take me through what, what's actually going on? What it means for the customers. So border guard labs. You're looking at all the ransom where you see in the patterns Are you guys proactively looking? Is is that you guys were researching you Look at something pops on the radar. I mean, take us through What is what What goes on? And then how does that translate into a customer notification or impact? >>So So, yeah, if you look at a typical life cycle of these attacks, there's always proactive and reactive. That's just the way it is in the industry, right? So of course we try to be a wear Some of the solutions we talked about before. And if you look at an incoming threat, first of all, you need visibility. You can't protect or analyze anything that you can't see. So you got to get your hands on visibility. We call these I, O. C s indicators a compromise. So this is usually something like, um, actual execute herbal file, like the virus from the malware itself. It could be other things that are related to it, like websites that could be hosting the malware as an example. So once we have that seed, we call it a seed. We could do threat hunting from there, so we can analyze that right? If it's ah piece of malware or a botnet weaken do analysis on that and discover more malicious things that this is doing. Then we go investigate those malicious things and we really you know, it's similar to the world of C. S. I write have these different gods that they're connecting. We're doing that at hyper scale on DWI. Use that through these tools that Omar was talking. So it's really a life cycle of getting, you know, the malware incoming seeing it first, um, analyzing it on, then doing action on that. Right? So it's sort of a three step process, and the action comes down to what tomorrow is saying water following that to our customers so that they're protected. But then in tandem with that, we're also going further. And I'm sharing it, if if applicable to, say, law enforcement partners, other threat Intel sharing partners to And, um, there's not just humans doing that, right? So the proactive peace again, This is where it comes to artificial intelligence machine learning. Um, there's a lot of cases where we're automatically doing that analysis without humans. So we have a I systems that are analyzing and actually creating protection on its own. Two. So it Zack white interest technology. >>A decision. At the end of the day, you want to protect your customers. And so this renders out if I'm afford a net customer across the portfolio. The goal here is to protect them from ransomware. Right? That's the end of game. >>Yeah, And that's a very important thing when you start talking these big dollar amounts that were talking earlier comes Thio the damages that air down from estimates. >>E not only is a good insurance, it's just good to have that fortification. Alright, So dark. I gotta ask you about the term the last mile because, you know, we were before we came on camera. You know, I'm band with junkie, always want more bandwidth. So the last mile used to be a term for last mile to the home where there was telephone lines. Now it's fiber and by five. But what does that mean to you guys and security is that Does that mean something specific? >>Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to describe that is actionable, right? So one of the challenges in the industry is we live in a very noisy industry when it comes thio cybersecurity. What I mean by that is because of that growing attacks for fists on do you know, you have these different attack vectors. You have attacks not only coming in from email, but websites from, you know, DDOS attacks. There's there's a lot of volume that's just going to continue to grow is the world of I G N O T. S O. What ends up happening is when you look at a lot of security operation centers for customers as an example, um, there are it's very noisy. It's, um you can guarantee that every day you're going to see some sort of probe, some sort of attack activity that's happening. And so what that means is you get a lot of protection events, a lot of logs, and when you have this worldwide shortage of security professionals, you don't have enough people to process those logs and actually started to say, Hey, this looks like an attack. I'm gonna go investigate it and block it. So this is where the last mile comes in because ah, lot of the times that you know these logs, they light up like Christmas. And I mean, there's a lot of events that are happening. How do you prioritize that? How do you automatically add action? Because The reality is, if it's just humans, doing it on that last mile is often going back to your bandwidth terms. There's too much too much lately. See right, So how do you reduce that late and see? That's where the automation the AI machine learning comes in. Thio solve that last mile problem toe automatically either protection. Especially important because you have to be quicker than the attacker. It's an arms race like E. >>I think what you guys do with four to Guard Labs is super important. Not like the industry, but for society at large, as you have kind of all this, you know, shadow, cloak and dagger kind of attacks systems, whether it's National Security international or just for, you know, mafias and racketeering and the bad guys. Can you guys take a minute and explain the role of 40 guards specifically and and why you guys exist? I mean, obviously there's a commercial reason you both on the four net that you know trickles down into the products. That's all good for the customers. I get that, but there's more to the fore to guard than just that. You guys talk about this trend and security business because it is very clear that there's a you know, uh, collective sharing culture developing rapidly for societal benefit. Can you take them into something that, >>Yeah, sure, I'll get my thoughts. Are you gonna that? So I'm going to that Teoh from my point of view, I mean, there's various functions, So we've just talked about that last mile problem. That's the commercial aspect we create through 40 yard labs, 40 yards, services that are dynamic and updated to security products because you need intelligence products to be ableto protect against intelligence attacks. That's just the defense again, going back to How can we take that further? I mean, we're not law enforcement ourselves. We know a lot about the bad guys and the actors because of the intelligence work that you do. But we can't go in and prosecute. We can share knowledge and we can train prosecutors, right? This is a big challenge in the industry. A lot of prosecutors don't know how to take cybersecurity courses to court, and because of that, a lot of these cybercriminals rain free. That's been a big challenge in the industry. So, you know, this has been close to my heart over 10 years, I've been building a lot of these key relationships between private public sector as an example, but also private sector things like Cyber Threat Alliance, where a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance, if over 28 members and that alliance. And it's about sharing intelligence to level that playing field because Attackers room freely. What I mean by that is there's no jurisdictions for them. Cybercrime has no borders. Um, they could do a million things, uh, wrong and they don't care. We do a million things right. One thing wrong, and it's a challenge. So there's this big collaboration that's a big part of 40 guard. Why exists to is to make the industry better. Thio, you know, work on protocols and automation and and really fight fight this together. Well, remaining competitors. I mean, we have competitors out there, of course, on DSO it comes down to that last mile problem. John is like we can share intelligence within the industry, but it's on Lee. Intelligence is just intelligence. How do you make it useful and actionable? That's where it comes down to technology integration. And, >>um, are what's your take on this, uh, societal benefit because, you know, I've been saying since the Sony hack years ago that, you know, when you have nation states that if they put troops on our soil, the government would respond. Um, but yet virtually they're here, and the private sector's defend for themselves. No support. So I think this private public partnership thing is very relevant. I think is ground zero of the future build out of policy because, you know, we pay for freedom. Why don't we have cyber freedom is if we're gonna run a business. Where's our help from the government? Pay taxes. So again, if a military showed up, you're not gonna see, you know, cos fighting the foreign enemy, right? So, again, this is a whole new change over it >>really is. You have to remember that cyberattacks puts everyone on even playing field, right? I mean, you know, now don't have to have a country that has invested a lot in weapons development or nuclear weapons or anything like that, right? Anyone can basically come up to speed on cyber weapons as long as they have an Internet connection. So it evens the playing field, which makes it dangerous, I guess, for our enemies, you know, But absolutely that I think a lot of us, You know, from a personal standpoint, a lot of us have seen researchers have seen organizations fail through cyber attacks. We've seen the frustration we've seen. Like, you know, besides organization, we've seen people like, just like grandma's loser pictures of their, you know, other loved ones because they can being attacked by ransom, where I think we take it very personally when people like innocent people get attacked and we make it our mission to make sure we can do everything we can to protect them. But But I will add that the least here in the U. S. The federal government actually has a lot of partnerships and ah, lot of programs to help organizations with cyber attacks. Three us cert is always continuously updating, you know, organizations about the latest attacks. Infra Guard is another organization run by the FBI, and a lot of companies like Fortinet and even a lot of other security companies participate in these organizations so everyone can come up to speed and everyone share information. So we all have a fighting chance. >>It's a whole new wave paradigm. You guys on the cutting edge, Derek? Always great to see a mark. Great to meet you remotely looking forward to meeting in person when the world comes back to normal as usual. Thanks for the great insights. Appreciate it. >>All right. Thank God. Pleasure is always >>okay. Q conversation here. I'm John for a host of the Cube. Great insightful conversation around security Ransomware with a great demo. Check it out from Derek and, um, are from 14 guard labs. I'm John Ferrier. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi everyone. Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE here in the CUBEs, Palo Alto studios during the COVID crisis. We're quarantine with our crew, but we got the remote interviews. Got two great guests here from Fortinet FortiGuard Labs, Derek Mankey, Chief Security Insights and global threat alliances at Fortinet FortiGuard Labs. And Aamir Lakhani who's the Lead Researcher for the FortiGuard Labs. You guys is great to see you. Derek, good to see you again, Aamir, good to meet you too. >> It's been a while and it happens so fast. >> It just seems was just the other day, Derek, we've done a couple of interviews in between a lot of flow coming out of Fortinet FortiGuard, a lot of action, certainly with COVID everyone's pulled back home, the bad actors taking advantage of the situation. The surface areas increased really is the perfect storm for security in terms of action, bad actors are at an all time high, new threats. Here's going on, take us through what you guys are doing. What's your team makeup look like? What are some of the roles and you guys are seeing on your team and how does that transcend to the market? >> Yeah, sure, absolutely. So you're right. I mean like I was saying earlier that is, this always happens fast and furious. We couldn't do this without a world class team at FortiGuard Labs. So we've grown our team now to over 235 globally. There's different rules within the team. If we look 20 years ago, the rules used to be just very pigeonholed into say antivirus analysis, right? Now we have to account for, when we're looking at threats, we have to look at that growing attack surface. We have to look at where are these threats coming from? How frequently are they hitting? What verticals are they hitting? What regions, what are the particular techniques, tactics, procedures? So we have threat. This is the world of threat intelligence, of course, contextualizing that information and it takes different skill sets on the backend. And a lot of people don't really realize the behind the scenes, what's happening. And there's a lot of magic happening, not only from what we talked about before in our last conversation from artificial intelligence and machine learning that we do at FortiGuard Labs and automation, but the people. And so today we want to focus on the people and talk about how on the backend we approached a particular threat, we're going to talk to the word ransom and ransomware, look at how we dissect threats, how correlate that, how we use tools in terms of threat hunting as an example, and then how we actually take that to that last mile and make it actionable so that customers are protected. I would share that information with keys, right, until sharing partners. But again, it comes down to the people. We never have enough people in the industry, there's a big shortage as we know, but it's a really key critical element. And we've been building these training programs for over a decade with them FortiGuard Labs. So, you know John, this to me is exactly why I always say, and I'm sure Aamir can share this too, that there's never a adult day in the office and all we hear that all the time. But I think today, all of you is really get an idea of why that is because it's very dynamic and on the backend, there's a lot of things that we're doing to get our hands dirty with this. >> You know the old expression startup plan Silicon Valley is if you're in the arena, that's where the action is. And it's different than sitting in the stands, watching the game. You guys are certainly in that arena and you got, we've talked and we cover your, the threat report that comes out frequently. But for the folks that aren't in the weeds on all the nuances of security, can you kind of give the 101 ransomware, what's going on? What's the state of the ransomware situation? Set the stage because that's still continues to be threat. I don't go a week, but I don't read a story about another ransomware. And then at least I hear they paid 10 million in Bitcoin or something like, I mean, this is real, that's a real ongoing threat. What is it? >> The (indistinct) quite a bit. But yeah. So I'll give sort of the 101 and then maybe we can pass it to Aamir who is on the front lines, dealing with this every day. You know if we look at the world of, I mean, first of all, the concept of ransom, obviously you have people that has gone extended way way before cybersecurity in the world of physical crime. So of course, the world's first ransom where a virus is actually called PC Cyborg. This is a 1989 around some payment that was demanded through P.O Box from the voters Panama city at the time, not too effective on floppiness, a very small audience, not a big attack surface. Didn't hear much about it for years. Really, it was around 2010 when we started to see ransomware becoming prolific. And what they did was, what cyber criminals did was shift on success from a fake antivirus software model, which was, popping up a whole bunch of, setting here, your computer's infected with 50 or 60 viruses, PaaS will give you an antivirus solution, which was of course fake. People started catching on, the giggles out people caught on to that. So they, weren't making a lot of money selling this fraudulent software, enter ransomware. And this is where ransomware, it really started to take hold because it wasn't optional to pay for this software. It was mandatory almost for a lot of people because they were losing their data. They couldn't reverse engineer that the encryption, couldn't decrypt it, but any universal tool. Ransomware today is very rigid. We just released our threat report for the first half of 2020. And we saw, we've seen things like master boot record, MVR, ransomware. This is persistent. It sits before your operating system, when you boot up your computer. So it's hard to get rid of it. Very strong public private key cryptography. So each victim is effective with the direct key, as an example, the list goes on and I'll save that for the demo today, but that's basically, it's just very, it's prolific. We're seeing shuts not only just ransomware attacks for data, we're now starting to see ransom for extortion, for targeted around some cases that are going after critical business. Essentially it's like a DoS holding revenue streams go ransom too. So the ransom demands are getting higher because of this as well. So it's complicated. >> Was mentioning Aamir, why don't you weigh in, I mean, 10 million is a lot. And we reported earlier in this month. Garmin was the company that was hacked, IT got completely locked down. They pay 10 million, Garmin makes all those devices. And as we know, this is impact and that's real numbers. I mean, it's not other little ones, but for the most part, it's nuance, it's a pain in the butt to full on business disruption and extortion. Can you explain how it all works before we go to the demo? >> You know, you're absolutely right. It is a big number and a lot of organizations are willing to pay that number, to get their data back. Essentially their organization and their business is at a complete standstill when they don't pay, all their files are inaccessible to them. Ransomware in general, what it does end up from a very basic overview is it basically makes your files not available to you. They're encrypted. They have essentially a passcode on them that you have to have the correct passcode to decode them. A lot of times that's in a form of a program or actually a physical password you have to type in, but you don't get that access to get your files back unless you pay the ransom. A lot of corporations these days, they are not only paying the ransom. They're actually negotiating with the criminals as well. They're trying to say, "Oh, you want 10 million? "How about 4 million?" Sometimes that goes on as well. But it's something that organizations know that if they didn't have the proper backups and the hackers are getting smart, they're trying to go after the backups as well. They're trying to go after your duplicated files. So sometimes you don't have a choice in organizations. Will pay the ransom. >> And it's, they're smart, there's a business. They know the probability of buy versus build or pay versus rebuild. So they kind of know where to attack. They know that the tactics and it's vulnerable. It's not like just some kitty script thing going on. This is real sophisticated stuff it's highly targeted. Can you talk about some use cases there and what goes on with that kind of a attack? >> Absolutely. The cyber criminals are doing reconnaissance and trying to find out as much as they can about their victims. And what happens is they're trying to make sure that they can motivate their victims in the fastest way possible to pay the ransom as well. So there's a lot of attacks going on. We usually, what we're finding now is ransomware is sometimes the last stage of an attack. So an attacker may go into an organization. They may already be taking data out of that organization. They may be stealing customer data, PII, which is personal identifiable information, such as social security numbers, or driver's licenses, or credit card information. Once they've done their entire tap. Once they've gone everything, they can. A lot of times their end stage, their last attack is ransomware. And they encrypt all the files on the system and try and motivate the victim to pay as fast as possible and as much as possible as well. >> I was talking to my buddy of the day. It's like casing the joint there, stay, check it out. They do their recon, reconnaissance. They go in identify what's the best move to make, how to extract the most out of the victim in this case, the target. And it really is, I mean, it's just to go on a tangent, why don't we have the right to bear our own arms? Why can't we fight back? I mean, at the end of the day, Derek, this is like, who's protecting me? I mean, what to protect my, build my own arms, or does the government help us? I mean, at some point I got a right to bear my own arms here. I mean, this is the whole security paradigm. >> Yeah. So, I mean, there's a couple of things. So first of all, this is exactly why we do a lot of, I was mentioning the skill shortage in cyber cybersecurity professionals as an example. This is why we do a lot of the heavy lifting on the backend. Obviously from a defensive standpoint, you obviously have the red team, blue team aspect. How do you first, there's what is to fight back by being defensive as well, too. And also by, in the world of threat intelligence, one of the ways that we're fighting back is not necessarily by going and hacking the bad guys because that's illegal jurisdictions. But how we can actually find out who these people are, hit them where it hurts, freeze assets, go after money laundering networks. If you follow the cash transactions where it's happening, this is where we actually work with key law enforcement partners, such as Interpol as an example, this is the world of threat intelligence. This is why we're doing a lot of that intelligence work on the backend. So there's other ways to actually go on the offense without necessarily weaponizing it per se, right? Like using, bearing your own arms as you said, there there's different forms that people may not be aware of with that. And that actually gets into the world of, if you see attacks happening on your system, how you can use the security tools and collaborate with threat intelligence. >> I think that's the key. I think the key is these new sharing technologies around collective intelligence is going to be a great way to kind of have more of an offensive collective strike. But I think fortifying, the defense is critical. I mean, that's, there's no other way to do that. >> Absolutely, I mean, we say this almost every week, but it's in simplicity. Our goal is always to make it more expensive for the cybercriminal to operate. And there's many ways to do that, right? You can be a pain to them by having a very rigid, hardened defense. That means if it's too much effort on their end, I mean, they have ROIs and in their sense, right? It's too much effort on there and they're going to go knocking somewhere else. There's also, as I said, things like disruption, so ripping infrastructure offline that cripples them, whack-a-mole, they're going to set up somewhere else. But then also going after people themselves, again, the cash networks, these sorts of things. So it's sort of a holistic approach between- >> It's an arms race, better AI, better cloud scale always helps. You know, it's a ratchet game. Aamir, I want to get into this video. It's a ransomware four minute video. I'd like you to take us through as you the Lead Researcher, take us through this video and explain what we're looking at. Let's roll the video. >> All right. Sure. So what we have here is we have the victims that's top over here. We have a couple of things on this victim's desktop. We have a batch file, which is essentially going to run the ransomware. We have the payload, which is the code behind the ransomware. And then we have files in this folder. And this is where you would typically find user files and a real world case. This would be like Microsoft or Microsoft word documents, or your PowerPoint presentations, or we're here we just have a couple of text files that we've set up. We're going to go ahead and run the ransomware. And sometimes attackers, what they do is they disguise this. Like they make it look like an important word document. They make it look like something else. But once you run the ransomware, you usually get a ransom message. And in this case, a ransom message says, your files are encrypted. Please pay this money to this Bitcoin address. That obviously is not a real Bitcoin address. I usually they look a little more complicated, but this is our fake Bitcoin address. But you'll see that the files now are encrypted. You cannot access them. They've been changed. And unless you pay the ransom, you don't get the files. Now, as researchers, we see files like this all the time. We see ransomware all the time. So we use a variety of tools, internal tools, custom tools, as well as open source tools. And what you're seeing here is an open source tool. It's called the Cuckoo Sandbox, and it shows us the behavior of the ransomware. What exactly is ransomware doing. In this case, you can see just clicking on that file, launched a couple of different things that launched basically a command executable, a power shell. They launched our windows shell. And then at, then add things on the file. It would basically, you had registry keys, it had on network connections. It changed the disk. So that's kind of gives us a behind the scenes, look at all the processes that's happening on the ransomware. And just that one file itself, like I said, does multiple different things. Now what we want to do as a researchers, we want to categorize this ransomware into families. We want to try and determine the actors behind that. So we dump everything we know in a ransomware in the central databases. And then we mine these databases. What we're doing here is we're actually using another tool called Maldito and use custom tools as well as commercial and open source tools. But this is a open source and commercial tool. But what we're doing is we're basically taking the ransomware and we're asking Maldito to look through our database and say like, do you see any like files? Or do you see any types of incidences that have similar characteristics? Because what we want to do is we want to see the relationship between this one ransomware and anything else we may have in our system, because that helps us identify maybe where the ransomware is connecting to, where it's going to other processes that I may be doing. In this case, we can see multiple IP addresses that are connected to it. So we can possibly see multiple infections. We can block different external websites that we can identify a command and control system. We can categorize this to a family, and sometimes we can even categorize this to a threat actor as claimed responsibility for it. So it's essentially visualizing all the connections and the relationship between one file and everything else we have in our database. And this example, of course, I'd put this in multiple ways. We can save these as reports, as PDF type reports or usually HTML or other searchable data that we have back in our systems. And then the cool thing about this is this is available to all our products, all our researchers, all our specialty teams. So when we're researching botnets, when we're researching file-based attacks, when we're researching IP reputation, we have a lot of different IOC or indicators of compromise that we can correlate where attacks go through and maybe even detect new types of attacks as well. >> So the bottom line is you got the tools using combination of open source and commercial products to look at the patterns of all ransomware across your observation space. Is that right? >> Exactly. I showed you like a very simple demo. It's not only open source and commercial, but a lot of it is our own custom developed products as well. And when we find something that works, that logic, that technique, we make sure it's built into our own products as well. So our own customers have the ability to detect the same type of threats that we're detecting as well. At FortiGuard Labs, the intelligence that we acquire, that product, that product of intelligence it's consumed directly by our prospects. >> So take me through what what's actually going on, what it means for the customer. So FortiGuard Labs, you're looking at all the ransomware, you seeing the patterns, are you guys proactively looking? Is it, you guys are researching, you look at something pops in the radar. I mean, take us through what goes on and then how does that translate into a customer notification or impact? >> So, yeah, John, if you look at a typical life cycle of these attacks, there's always proactive and reactive. That's just the way it is in the industry, right? So of course we try to be (indistinct) as we look for some of the solutions we talked about before, and if you look at an incoming threat, first of all, you need visibility. You can't protect or analyze anything that you can see. So you got to get your hands on visibility. We call these IOC indicators of compromise. So this is usually something like an actual executable file, like the virus or the malware itself. It could be other things that are related to it, like websites that could be hosting the malware as an example. So once we have that SEED, we call it a SEED. We can do threat hunting from there. So we can analyze that, right? If we have to, it's a piece of malware or a botnet, we can do analysis on that and discover more malicious things that this is doing. Then we go investigate those malicious things. And we really, it's similar to the world of CSI, right? These different dots that they're connecting, we're doing that at hyper-scale. And we use that through these tools that Aamir was talking about. So it's really a lifecycle of getting the malware incoming, seeing it first, analyzing it, and then doing action on that. So it's sort of a three step process. And the action comes down to what Aamir was saying, waterfall and that to our customers, so that they're protected. But then in tandem with that, we're also going further and I'm sharing it if applicable to say law enforcement partners, other threat Intel sharing partners too. And it's not just humans doing that. So the proactive piece, again, this is where it comes to artificial intelligence, machine learning. There's a lot of cases where we're automatically doing that analysis without humans. So we have AI systems that are analyzing and actually creating protection on its own too. So it's quite interesting that way. >> It say's at the end of the day, you want to protect your customers. And so this renders out, if I'm a Fortinet customer across the portfolio, the goal here is protect them from ransomware, right? That's the end game. >> Yeah. And that's a very important thing. When you start talking to these big dollar amounts that were talking earlier, it comes to the damages that are done from that- >> Yeah, I mean, not only is it good insurance, it's just good to have that fortification. So Derek, I going to ask you about the term the last mile, because, we were, before we came on camera, I'm a band with junkie always want more bandwidth. So the last mile, it used to be a term for last mile to the home where there was telephone lines. Now it's fiber and wifi, but what does that mean to you guys in security? Does that mean something specific? >> Yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to describe that is actionable. So one of the challenges in the industry is we live in a very noisy industry when it comes to cybersecurity. What I mean by that is that because of that growing attacks for FIS and you have these different attack factors, you have attacks not only coming in from email, but websites from DoS attacks, there's a lot of volume that's just going to continue to grow is the world that 5G and OT. So what ends up happening is when you look at a lot of security operations centers for customers, as an example, there are, it's very noisy. It's you can guarantee almost every day, you're going to see some sort of probe, some sort of attack activity that's happening. And so what that means is you get a lot of protection events, a lot of logs. And when you have this worldwide shortage of security professionals, you don't have enough people to process those logs and actually start to say, "Hey, this looks like an attack." I'm going to go investigate it and block it. So this is where the last mile comes in, because a lot of the times that, these logs, they light up like Christmas. And I mean, there's a lot of events that are happening. How do you prioritize that? How do you automatically add action? Because the reality is if it's just humans doing it, that last mile is often going back to your bandwidth terms. There's too much latency. So how do you reduce that latency? That's where the automation, the AI machine learning comes in to solve that last mile problem to automatically add that protection. It's especially important 'cause you have to be quicker than the attacker. It's an arms race, like you said earlier. >> I think what you guys do with FortiGuard Labs is super important, not only for the industry, but for society at large, as you have kind of all this, shadow, cloak and dagger kind of attack systems, whether it's national security international, or just for, mafias and racketeering, and the bad guys. Can you guys take a minute and explain the role of FortiGuards specifically and why you guys exist? I mean, obviously there's a commercial reason you built on the Fortinet that trickles down into the products. That's all good for the customers, I get that. But there's more at the FortiGuards. And just that, could you guys talk about this trend and the security business, because it's very clear that there's a collective sharing culture developing rapidly for societal benefit. Can you take a minute to explain that? >> Yeah, sure. I'll give you my thoughts, Aamir will add some to that too. So, from my point of view, I mean, there's various functions. So we've just talked about that last mile problem. That's the commercial aspect. We created a through FortiGuard Labs, FortiGuard services that are dynamic and updated to security products because you need intelligence products to be able to protect against intelligent attacks. That's just a defense again, going back to, how can we take that further? I mean, we're not law enforcement ourselves. We know a lot about the bad guys and the actors because of the intelligence work that we do, but we can't go in and prosecute. We can share knowledge and we can train prosecutors, right? This is a big challenge in the industry. A lot of prosecutors don't know how to take cybersecurity courses to court. And because of that, a lot of these cyber criminals reign free, and that's been a big challenge in the industry. So this has been close my heart over 10 years, I've been building a lot of these key relationships between private public sector, as an example, but also private sector, things like Cyber Threat Alliance. We're a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance. We have over 28 members in that Alliance, and it's about sharing intelligence to level that playing field because attackers roam freely. What I mean by that is there's no jurisdictions for them. Cyber crime has no borders. They can do a million things wrong and they don't care. We do a million things right, one thing wrong and it's a challenge. So there's this big collaboration. That's a big part of FortiGuard. Why exists too, as to make the industry better, to work on protocols and automation and really fight this together while remaining competitors. I mean, we have competitors out there, of course. And so it comes down to that last mile problems on is like, we can share intelligence within the industry, but it's only intelligence is just intelligence. How do you make it useful and actionable? That's where it comes down to technology integration. >> Aamir, what's your take on this societal benefit? Because, I would say instance, the Sony hack years ago that, when you have nation States, if they put troops on our soil, the government would respond, but yet virtually they're here and the private sector has to fend for themselves. There's no support. So I think this private public partnership thing is very relevant, I think is ground zero of the future build out of policy because we pay for freedom. Why don't we have cyber freedom if we're going to run a business, where is our help from the government? We pay taxes. So again, if a military showed up, you're not going to see companies fighting the foreign enemy, right? So again, this is a whole new changeover. What's your thought? >> It really is. You have to remember that cyber attacks puts everyone on an even playing field, right? I mean, now don't have to have a country that has invested a lot in weapons development or nuclear weapons or anything like that. Anyone can basically come up to speed on cyber weapons as long as an internet connection. So it evens the playing field, which makes it dangerous, I guess, for our enemies. But absolutely I think a lot of us, from a personal standpoint, a lot of us have seen research does I've seen organizations fail through cyber attacks. We've seen the frustration, we've seen, like besides organization, we've seen people like, just like grandma's lose their pictures of their other loved ones because they kind of, they've been attacked by ransomware. I think we take it very personally when people like innocent people get attacked and we make it our mission to make sure we can do everything we can to protect them. But I will add that at least here in the U.S. the federal government actually has a lot of partnerships and a lot of programs to help organizations with cyber attacks. The US-CERT is always continuously updating, organizations about the latest attacks and regard is another organization run by the FBI and a lot of companies like Fortinet. And even a lot of other security companies participate in these organizations. So everyone can come up to speed and everyone can share information. So we all have a fighting chance. >> It's a whole new wave of paradigm. You guys are on the cutting edge. Derek always great to see you, Aamir great to meet you remotely, looking forward to meeting in person when the world comes back to normal as usual. Thanks for the great insights. Appreciate it. >> Pleasure as always. >> Okay. Keep conversation here. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Great insightful conversation around security ransomware with a great demo. Check it out from Derek and Aamir from FortiGuard Labs. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE, covering RSA Conference 2020, San Francisco. Brought to you by, SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back everyone. CUBE coverage here in Moscone in San Francisco for RSA, 2020. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. We've got a great guest here talking about cybersecurity and the impact with AI and the role of data. It's always great to have Derek Manky on Chief Security Insights Global Threat Alliances with FortiGuard Lab, part of Fortinet, FortiGuard Labs is great. Great organization. Thanks for coming on. >> It's a pleasure always to be here-- >> So you guys do a great threat report that we always cover. So it covers all the bases and it really kind of illustrates state of the art of viruses, the protection, threats, et cetera. But you're part of FortiGuard Labs. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Part of Fortinet, which is a security company, public. What is FortiGuard Labs? What do you guys do, what's your mission? >> So FortiGuard Labs has existed since day one. You can think of us as the intelligence that's baked into the product, It's one thing to have a world-class product, but you need a world-class intelligence team backing that up. We're the ones fighting those fires against cybercrime on the backend, 24/7, 365 on a per second basis. We're processing threat intelligence. We've got over 10 million attacks or processing just per minute, over a hundred billion events, in any given day that we have to sift through. We have to find out what's relevant. We have to find gaps that we might be missing detection and protection. We got to push that out to a customer base of 450,000 customers through FortiGuard services and 5 million firewalls, 5 million plus firewalls we have now. So it's vitally important. You need intelligence to be able to detect and then protect and also to respond. Know the enemy, build a security solution around that and then also be able to act quickly about it if you are under active attack. So we're doing everything from creating security controls and protections. So up to, real time updates for customers, but we're also doing playbooks. So finding out who these attackers are, why are they coming up to you. For a CSO, why does that matter? So this is all part of FortiGuard Labs. >> How many people roughly involved ? Take us a little inside the curtain here. What's going on? Personnel size, scope. >> So we're over 235. So for a network security vendor, this was the largest global SOC, that exists. Again, this is behind the curtain like you said. These are the people that are, fighting those fires every day. But it's a large team and we have experts to cover the entire attack surface. So we're looking at not just a viruses, but we're looking at as zero-day weapons, exploits and attacks, everything from cyber crime to, cyber warfare, operational technology, all these sorts of things. And of course, to do that, we need to really heavily rely on good people, but also automation and artificial intelligence and machine learning. >> You guys are walking on a tight rope there. I can only imagine how complex and stressful it is, just imagining the velocity alone. But one of the trends that's coming up here, this year at RSA and is kind of been talking about in the industry is the who? Who is the attacker because, the shifts could shift and change. You got nation states are sitting out there, they're not going to have their hands dirty on this stuff. You've got a lot of dark web activity. You've got a lot of actors out there that go by different patterns. But you guys have an aperture and visibility into a lot of this stuff. >> Absolutely. >> So, you can almost say, that's that guy. That's the actor. That's a really big part. Talk about why that's important. >> This is critically important because in the past, let's say the first generation of, threat intelligence was very flat. It was to watch. So it was just talking about here's a bad IP, here's a bad URL, here's a bad file block hit. But nowadays, obviously the attackers are very clever. These are large organizations that are run a lot of people involved. There's real world damages happening and we're talking about, you look at OT attacks that are happening now. There's, in some cases, 30, $40 million from targeted ransom attacks that are happening. These people, A, have to be brought to justice. So we need to understand the who, but we also need to be able to predict what their next move is. This is very similar to, this is what you see online or CSI. The police trynna investigate and connect the dots like, plotting the strings and the yarn on the map. This is the same thing we're doing, but on a way more advanced level. And it's very important to be able to understand who these groups are, what tools they use, what are the weapons, cyber weapons, if you will, and what's their next move potentially going to be. So there's a lot of different reasons that's important. >> Derek, I was riffing with another guest earlier today about this notion of, government protection. You've got a military troops drop on our shores and my neighborhood, the Russians drop in my neighborhood. Guess what, the police will probably come in, and, or the army should take care of it. But if I got to run a business, I got to build my own militia. There's no support out there. The government's not going to support me. I'm hacked. Damage is done. You guys are in a way providing that critical lifeline that guard or shield, if you will, for customers. And they're going to want more of it. So I've got to ask you the hard question, which is, how are you guys going to constantly be on the front edge of all this? Because at the end of the day, you're in the protection business. Threats are coming at the speed of milliseconds and nanoseconds, in memory. You need memory, you need database. You've got to have real time. It's a tsunami of attack. You guys are the front lines of this. You're the heat shield. >> Yes, absolutely. >> How do you take it to the next level? >> Yeah, so collaboration, integration, having a broad integrated platform, that's our bread and butter. This is what we do. End-to-end security. The attack surface is growing. So we have to be able to, A, be able to cover all aspects of that attack surface and again, have intelligence. So we're doing sharing through partners. We have our core intelligence network. Like I said, we're relying heavily on machine learning models. We're able to find that needle in the haystack. Like, as I said earlier, we're getting over a hundred billion potential threat events a day. We have to dissect that. We have to break it down. We have to say, is this affecting endpoint? Is this effect affecting operational technology? What vertical, how do we process it? How do we verify that this is a real threat? And then most importantly, get that out in time and speed to our customers. So I started with automation years ago, but now really the way that we're doing this is through broad platform coverage. But also machine learning models for and-- >> I want to dig into machine learning because, I love that needle in the haystack analogy, because, if you take that to the next step, you got to stack a needles now. So you find the needle in the haystack. Now you got a bunch of needles, where do you find that? You need AI, you got to have some help. But you still got the human component. So talk about how you guys are advising customers on how you're using machine learning and get that AI up and running for customers and for yourselves. >> So we're technology people. I always look at this as the stack. The stack model, the bottom of the stack, you have automation. You have layer one, layer two. That's like the basic things for, feeds, threat feeds, how we can push out, automate, integrate that. Then you have the human. So the layer seven. This is where our human experts are coming in to actually advise our customers. We're creating a threat signals with FortiGuard Labs as an example. These are bulletins that's a quick two to three page read that a CSO can pick up and say, here's what FortiGuard Labs has discovered this week. Is this relevant to my network? Do I have these protections in place. There's also that automated, and so, I refer to this as a centaur model. It's half human half machine and, the machines are driving a lot of that, the day to day mundane tasks, if you will, but also finding, collecting the needles of needles. But then ultimately we have our humans that are processing that, analyzing it, creating the higher level strategic advice. We recently, we've launched a FortiAI, product as well. This has a concept of a virtual-- >> Hold on, back up a second. What's it called? >> FortiAI. >> So it's AI components. Is it a hardware box or-- >> This is a on-premise appliance built off of five plus years of learning that we've done in the cloud to be able to identify threats and malware, understand what that malware does to a detailed level. And, where we've seen this before, where is it potentially going? How do we protect against it? Something that typically you would need, four to five headcount in your security operations center to do, we're using this as an assist to us. So that's why it's a virtual analyst. It's really a bot, if you will, something that can actually-- >> So it's an enabling opportunity for the customers. So is this virtual assistant built into the box. What does that do, virtual analyst. >> So the virtual analyst is able to, sit on premises. So it's localized learning, collect threats to understand the nature of those threats, to be able to look at the needles of the needles, if you will, make sense of that and then automatically generate reports based off of that. So it's really an assist tool that a network admin or a security analyst was able to pick up and virtually save hours and hours of time of resources. >> So, if you look at the history of like our technology industry from a personalization standpoint, AI and data, whether you're a media business, personalization is ultimately the result of good data AI. So personalization for an analyst, would be how not to screw up their job. (laughs) One level. The other one is to be proactive on being more offensive. And then third collaboration with others. So, you starting to see that kind of picture form. What's your reaction to that? >> I think it's great. There's stepping stones that we have to go through. The collaboration is not always easy. I'm very familiar with this. I mean I was, with the Cyber Threat Alliance since day one, I head up and work with our Global Threat Alliances. There's always good intentions, there's problems that can be created and obviously you have things like PII now and data privacy and all these little hurdles they have to come over. But when it works right together, this is the way to do it. It's the same thing with, you talked about the data naturally when he started building up IT stacks, you have silos of data, but ultimately those silos need to be connected from different departments. They need to integrate a collaborate. It's the same thing that we're seeing from the security front now as well. >> You guys have proven the model of FortiGuard that the more you can see, the more visibility you can see and more access to the data in real time or anytime scale, the better the opportunity. So I got to take that to the next level. What you guys are doing, congratulations. But now the customer. How do I team up with, if I'm a customer with other customers because the bad guys are teaming up. So the teaming up is now a real dynamic that companies are deploying. How are you guys looking at that? How is FortiGuard helping that? Is it through services? Is it through the products like virtual assistant? Virtual FortiAI? >> So you can think of this. I always make it an analogy to the human immune system. Artificial neural networks are built off of neural nets. If I have a problem and an infection, say on one hand, the rest of the body should be aware of that. That's collaboration from node to node. Blood cells to blood cells, if you will. It's the same thing with employees. If a network admin sees a potential problem, they should be able to go and talk to the security admin, who can go in, log into an appliance and create a proper response to that. This is what we're doing in the security fabric to empower the customer. So the customer doesn't have to always do this and have the humans actively doing those cycles. I mean, this is the integration. The orchestration is the big piece of what we're doing. So security orchestration between devices, that's taking that gap out from the human to human, walking over with a piece of paper to another or whatever it is. That's one of the key points that we're doing within the actual security fabric. >> So that's why silos is problematic. Because you can't get that impact. >> And it also creates a lag time. We have a need for speed nowadays. Threats are moving incredibly fast. I think we've talked about this on previous episodes with swarm technology, offensive automation, the weaponization of artificial intelligence. So it becomes critically important to have that quick response and silos, really create barriers of course, and make it slower to respond. >> Okay Derek, so I got to ask you, it's kind of like, I don't want to say it sounds like sports, but it's, what's the state of the art in the attack vectors coming in. What are you guys seeing as some of the best of breed tax that people should really be paying attention to? They may, may not have fortified down. What are SOCs looking at and what are security pros focused on right now in terms of the state of the art. >> So the things that keep people up at night. We follow this in our Threat Landscape Report. Obviously we just released our key four one with FortiGuard Labs. We're still seeing the same culprits. This is the same story we talked about a lot of times. Things like, it used to be a EternalBlue and now BlueKeep, these vulnerabilities that are nothing new but still pose big problems. We're still seeing that exposed on a lot of networks. Targeted ransom attacks, as I was saying earlier. We've seen the shift or evolution from ransomware from day to day, like, pay us three or $400, we'll give you access to your data back to going after targeted accounts, high revenue business streams. So, low volume, high risk. That's the trend that we're starting to see as well. And this is what I talk about for trying to find that needle in the haystack. This is again, why it's important to have eyes on that. >> Well you guys are really advanced and you guys doing great work, so congratulations. I got to ask you to kind of like, the spectrum of IT. You've got a lot of people in the high end, financial services, healthcare, they're regulated, they got all kinds of challenges. But as IT and the enterprise starts to get woke to the fact that everyone's vulnerable. I've heard people say, well, I'm good. I got a small little to manage, I'm only a hundred million dollar business. All I do is manufacturing. I don't really have any IP. So what are they going to steal? So that's kind of a naive approach. The answer is, what? Your operations and ransomware, there's a zillion ways to get taken down. How do you respond to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Going after the crown jewels, what hurts? So it might not be a patent or intellectual property. Again, the things that matter to these businesses, how they operate day to day. The obvious examples, what we just talked about with revenue streams and then there's other indirect problems too. Obviously, if that infrastructure of a legitimate organization is taken over and it's used as a botnet and an orchestrated denial-of-service attack to take down other organizations, that's going to have huge implications. >> And they won't even know it. >> Right, in terms of brand damage, has legal implications as well that happened. This is going even down to the basics with consumers, thinking that, they're not under attack, but at the end of the day, what matters to them is their identity. Identity theft. But this is on another level when it comes to things to-- >> There's all kinds of things to deal with. There's, so much more advanced on the attacker side. All right, so I got to ask you a final question. I'm a business. You're a pro. You guys are doing great work. What do I do, what's my strategy? How would you advise me? How do I get my act together? I'm working the mall every day. I'm trying my best. I'm peddling as fast as I can. I'm overloaded. What do I do? How do I go the next step? >> So look for security solutions that are the assist model like I said. There's never ever going to be a universal silver bullet to security. We all know this. But there are a lot of things that can help up to that 90%, 95% secure. So depending on the nature of the threats, having a first detection first, that's always the most important. See what's on your network. This is things where SIM technology, sandboxing technology has really come into play. Once you have those detections, how can you actually take action? So look for a integration. Really have a look at your security solutions to see if you have the integration piece. Orchestration and integration is next after detection. Finally from there having a proper channel, are there services you looked at for managed incident response as an example. Education and cyber hygiene are always key. These are free things that I push on everybody. I mean we release weekly threat intelligence briefs. We're doing our quarterly Threat Landscape Reports. We have something called threat signals. So it's FortiGuard response to breaking industry events. I think that's key-- >> Hygiene seems to come up over and over as the, that's the foundational bedrock of security. >> And then, as I said, ultimately, where we're heading with this is the AI solution model. And so that's something, again that I think-- >> One final question since it's just popped into my head. I wanted, and that last one. But I wanted to bring it up since you kind of were, we're getting at it. I know you guys are very sensitive to this one topic cause you live it every day. But the notion of time and time elapsed is a huge concern because you got to know, it's not if it's when. So the factor of time is a huge variable in all kinds of impact. Positive and negative. How do you talk about time and the notion of time elapsing. >> That's great question. So there's many ways to stage that. I'll try to simplify it. So number one, if we're talking about breaches, time is money. So the dwell time. The longer that a threat sits on a network and it's not cleaned up, the more damage is going to be done. And we think of the ransom attacks, denial-of-service, revenue streams being down. So that's the incident response problem. So time is very important to detect and respond. So that's one aspect of that. The other aspect of time is with machine learning as well. This is something that people don't always think about. They think that, artificial intelligence solutions can be popped up overnight and within a couple of weeks they're going to be accurate. It's not the case. Machines learn like humans too. It takes time to do that. It takes processing power. Anybody can get that nowadays, data, most people can get that. But time is critical to that. It's a fascinating conversation. There's many different avenues of time that we can talk about. Time to detect is also really important as well, again. >> Let's do it, let's do a whole segment on that, in our studio, I'll follow up on that. I think it's a huge topic, I hear about all the time. And since it's a little bit elusive, but it kind of focuses your energy on, wait, what's going on here? I'm not reacting. (laughs) Time's a huge issue. >> I refer to it as a latency. I mean, latency is a key issue in cybersecurity, just like it is in the stock exchange. >> I mean, one of the things I've been talking about with folks here, just kind of in fun conversation is, don't be playing defense all the time. If you have a good time latency, you going to actually be a little bit offensive. Why not take a little bit more offense. Why play defense the whole time. So again, you're starting to see this kind of mentality not being, just an IT, we've got to cover, okay, respond, no, hold on the ballgame. >> That comes back to the sports analogy again. >> Got to have a good offense. They must cross offense. Derek, thanks so much. Quick plug for you, FortiGuard, share with the folks what you guys are up to, what's new, what's the plug. >> So FortiGuard Labs, so we're continuing to expand. Obviously we're focused on, as I said, adding all of the customer protection first and foremost. But beyond that, we're doing great things in industry. So we're working actively with law enforcement, with Interpol, Cyber Threat Alliance, with The World Economic Forum and the Center for Cyber Security. There's a lot more of these collaboration, key stakeholders. You talked about the human to human before. We're really setting the pioneering of setting that world stage. I think that is, so, it's really exciting to me. It's a lot of good industry initiatives. I think it's impactful. We're going to see an impact. The whole goal is we're trying to slow the offense down, the offense being the cyber criminals. So there's more coming on that end. You're going to see a lot great, follow our blogs at fortinet.com and all-- >> Great stuff. >> great reports. >> I'm a huge believer in that the government can't protect us digitally. There's going to be protection, heat shields out there. You guys are doing a good job. It's only going to be more important than ever before. So, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming I really appreciate. >> Never a dull day as we say. >> All right, it's theCUBE's coverage here in San Francisco for RSA 2020. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> live from Orlando, Florida It's the que covering accelerate nineteen. Brought to you by important >> Hey, welcome back to the Cube. We are live at forty nine. Accelerate nineteen in Orlando, Florida I am Lisa Martin with Peter Births, and Peter and I are pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program during Mickey, the chief of security insights for forty nine. Derek. It's great to have you back on the program, >> so it's always a pleasure to be here. It's tze always good conversations. I really look forward to it and it's It's never a boring day in my office, so we're than happy to talk about this. >> Fantastic. Excellent. Well, we've been here for a few hours, talking with a lot of your leaders. Partners as well. The keynote this morning was energetic. Talked a lot about the evocation, talked a lot about the evolution of not just security and threat, but obviously of infrastructure, multi cloud hybrid environment in which we live. You have been with forty girl lives for a long time. Talk to us about the evolution that you've seen of the threat landscape and where we are today. >> Sure, Yeah, so you know? Yeah, I've been fifteen years now, forty guards. So I flashed back. Even a two thousand, for it was a vastly different landscape back there and Internet and even in terms of our security technology in terms of what the attack surface was like back then, you know, Ken Kennedy was talking about EJ computing, right? Because that's what you know. Seventy percent of data is not going to be making it to the cloud in the future. A lot of processing is happening on the edge on DH. Threats are migrating that way as well, right? But there's always this mirror image that we see with the threat landscape again. Threat landscape. Back in nineteen eighty nine, we started with the Morris Worm is very simple instructions. It took down about eighty percent of the Internet at the time, but he was It is very simple. It wasn't to quote unquote intelligence, right? Of course, if we look through the two thousands, we had a lot of these big worms that hit the scene like Conficker. I love you, Anna Kournikova. Blaster slammer. All these famous rooms I started Teo become peer to peer, right? So they were able to actually spread from network to network throughout organizations take down critical services and so forth. That was a big evolutionary piece at the time. Of course, we saw fake anti virus ransomware. Come on stage last. Whereas I called it, which was destructive Mauer That was a big shift that we saw, right? So actually physically wiping out data on systems these air typically in like star but warfare based attacks. And that takes us up to today, right? And what we're seeing today, of course, we're still seeing a lot of ransom attacks, but we're starting to see a big shift in technology because of this edge computing used case. So we're seeing now things like Swarm networks have talked about before us. So these are not only like we saw in the two thousand's threats that could shift very quickly from network to network talk to each other, right? In terms of worms and so forth. We're also seeing now in intelligence baked in. And that's a key difference in technology because these threats are actually able, just like machine to machine. Communication happens through a pea eye's protocols and so forth threats are able to do this a swell. So they ableto understand their own local environment and how to adapt to that local environment and capitalized on that effort on DH. That's a very, very big shift in terms of technology that we're seeing now the threat landscape. >> So a lot of those old threats were depending upon the action of a human being, right? So in many respects, the creativity was a combination of Can you spook somebody make it interesting so that they'll do something that was always creativity in the actual threat itself. What you're describing today is a world where it's almost like automated risk. We're just as we're trying to do automation to dramatically increase the speed of things, reduce the amount of manual intervention. The bad guy's doing the same thing with the swarms there, introducing technology that is almost an automated attack and reconfigures itself based on whatever environment, conditions of encounters. >> Yeah, and the interesting thing is, what's happening here is we're seeing a reduction in what I call a t t be a time to breach. So if you look at the attack lifecycle, everything does doesn't happen in the blink of an instant it's moving towards that right? But if you look at the good, this's what's to come. I mean, we're seeing a lot of indications of this already. So we work very closely with Miter, the minor attack framework. It describes different steps for the attack life cycle, right? You start with reconnaissance weaponization and how do you penetrator system moving the system? Collect data monetize out as a cyber criminal. So even things like reconnaissance and weaponization. So if you look at fishing campaigns, right, people trying to fish people using social engineering, understanding data points about them that's becoming automated, that you sought to be a human tryingto understand their target, try toe fish them so they could get access to their network. There's tool kits now that will actually do that on their own by learning about data points. So it's scary, yes, but we are seeing indications of that. And and look, the endgame to this is that the attacks were happening much, much quicker. So you've got to be on your game. You have to be that much quicker from the defensive point of view, of course, because otherwise, if successful breach happens, you know we're talking about some of these attacks. They could. They could be successful in matter of seconds or or minutes instead of days or hours like before. You know, we're talking about potentially millions dollars of revenue loss, you know, services. They're being taken out flying intellectual properties being reached. So far, >> though. And this is, you know, I think of health care alone and literally life and death situations. Absolutely. How is Fortinet, with your ecosystem of partners poised to help customers mitigate some of these impending risk changing risk >> coverage? Strengthen numbers. Right. So we have, ah, strong ecosystem, of course, through our public ready program. So that's a technology piece, right? And to end security, how we can integrate how we can use automation to, you know, push security policies instead of having an administrator having to do that. Humans are slow a lot of the time, so you need machine to machine speed. It's our fabric ready program. You know, we have over fifty seven partners there. It's very strong ecosystem. From my side of the House on Threat Intelligence. I had up our global threat alliances, right? So we are working with other security experts around the World Cyberthreat Alliance is a good example. We've created intelligence sharing platforms so that we can share what we call indicators of compromise. So basically, blueprints are fingerprints. You can call them of attacks as they're happening in real time. We can share that world wide on a platform so that we can actually get a heads up from other security vendors of something that we might not see on. We can integrate that into our security fabric in terms of adding new, new, you know, intelligence definitions, security packages and so forth. And that's a very powerful thing. Beyond that, I've also created other alliances with law enforcement. So we're working with Interpol that's attribution Base work right that's going after the source of the problem. Our end game is to make it more expensive for cyber criminals to operate. And so we're doing that through working with Interpol on law enforcement. As an example, we're also working with national computer emergency response, so ripping malicious infrastructure off line, that's all about partnership, right? So that's what I mean strengthen numbers collaboration. It's It's a very powerful thing, something close to my heart that I've been building up over over ten years. And, you know, we're seeing a lot of success and impact from it, I think. >> But some of the, uh if you go back and look at some of the old threats that were very invasive, very problematic moved relatively fast, but they were still somewhat slow. Now we're talking about a new class of threat that happens like that. It suggests that the arrangement of assets but a company like Ford and that requires to respond and provide valued customers has to change. Yes, talk a little about how not just the investment product, but also the investment in four guard labs is evolving. You talked about partnerships, for example, to ensure that you have the right set of resources able to be engaged in the right time and applied to the right place with the right automation. Talk about about that. >> Sure, sure. So because of the criticality of this nature way have to be on point every day. As you said, you mentioned health care. Operational technology is a big thing as well. You know, Phyllis talking about sci fi, a swell right. The cyber physical convergence so way have to be on our game and on point and how do we do that? A couple of things. One we need. People still way. Can't you know Ken was talking about his his speech in Davos at the World Economic Forum with three to four million people shortage in cyber security of professionals There's never going to be enough people. So what we've done strategically is actually repositioned our experts of forty guard labs. We have over two hundred thirty five people in forty guard lab. So as a network security vendor, it's the largest security operation center in the world. But two hundred thirty five people alone are going to be able to battle one hundred billion threat events that we process today. Forty guard lab. So so what we've done, of course, is take up over the last five years. Machine learning, artificial intelligence. We have real practical applications of a I and machine learning. We use a supervised learning set so we actually have our machines learning about threats, and we have our human experts. Instead of tackling the threat's one on one themselves on the front lines, they let them in. The machine learning models do that and their training the machine. Just it's It's like a parent and child relationship. It takes time to learn a CZ machines learn. Over time they started to become more and more accurate. The only way they become more accurate is by our human experts literally being embedded with these machines and training them >> apart for suspended training. But also, there's assortment ation side, right? Yeah, we're increasing. The machines are providing are recognizing something and then providing a range of options. Thie security, professional in particular, doesn't have to go through the process of discovery and forensics to figure out everything. Absolution is presenting that, but also presenting potential remedial remediation options. Are you starting to see that become a regular feature? Absolutely, and especially in concert with your two hundred thirty five experts? >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's that's a necessity. So in my world, that's what I refer to is actionable intelligence, right? There's a lot of data out there. There's a lot of intelligence that the world's becoming data centric right now, but sometimes we don't have too much data. Askew Mons, a CZ analysts administrators so absolutely remediation suggestions and actually enforcement of that is the next step is well, we've already out of some features in in forty six two in our fabric to be able to deal with this. So where I think we're innovating and pioneering in the space, sir, it's it's ah, matter of trust. If you have the machines O R. You know, security technology that's making decisions on its own. You really have to trust that trust doesn't happen overnight. That's why for us, we have been investing in this for over six years now for our machine learning models that we can very accurate. It's been a good success story for us. I think. The other thing going back to your original question. How do we stack up against this? Of course, that whole edge computing use case, right? So we're starting to take that machine learning from the cloud environment also into local environments, right? Because a lot of that data is unique, its local environments and stays there. It stays there, and it has to be processed that such too. So that's another shift in technology as we move towards edge computing machine learning an artificial intelligence is absolutely part of that story, too. >> You mentioned strengthen numbers and we were talking about. You know, the opportunity for Fortinet to help customers really beat successful here. I wanted to go back to forty guard labs for a second because it's a very large numbers. One hundred billion security events. Forty Guard labs ingests and analyzes daily. Really? Yes, that is a differentiator. >> Okay, that that's a huge huge differentiator. So, again, if I look back to when I started in two thousand four, that number would have been about five hundred thousand events today, compared to one hundred billion today. In fact, even just a year ago, we were sitting about seventy five to eighty billion, so that numbers increased twenty billion and say twenty percent right in in just a year. So that's that's going to continue to happen. But it's that absolutely huge number, and it's a huge number because we have very big visibility, right. We have our four hundred thousand customers worldwide. We have built a core intelligence network for almost twenty years now, since for Deena was founded, you know, we we worked together with with customers. So if customers wish to share data about attacks that are happening because attackers are always coming knocking on doors. Uh, we can digest that. We can learn about the attacks. We know you know what weapons that these cybercriminals they're trying to use where the cybercriminals are. We learned more about the cyber criminals, so we're doing a lot of big data processing. I have a date, a science team that's doing this, in fact, and what we do is processes data. We understand the threat, and then we take a multi pronged approach. So we're consuming that data from automation were pushing that out first and foremost to our customers. So that's that automated use case of pushing protection from new threats that we're learning about were contextualizing the threat. So we're creating playbooks, so that playbook is much like football, right? You have to know your your your offense, right? And you have to know how to best understand their tactics. And so we're doing that right. We're mapping these playbooks understanding, tactics, understanding where these guys are, how they operate. We take that to law enforcement. As I was saying earlier as an example, we take that to the Cyber Threat Alliance to tow our other partners. And the more that we learn about this attack surface, the more that we can do in terms of protection as well. But it's it's a huge number. We've had a scale and our data center massively to be able to support this over the years. But we are poised for scale, ability for the future to be able to consume this on our anti. So it's it's, um it's what I said You know the start. It's never a boring day in my office. >> How can it be? But it sounds like, you know, really the potential there to enable customers. Any industry too convert Transport sees for transform Since we talked about digital transformation transformed from being reactive, to being proactive, to eventually predictive and >> cost effective to write, this's another thing without cybersecurity skills gap. You know this. The solution shouldn't be for any given customer to try. Toe have two hundred and thirty people in their security center, right? This is our working relationship where we can do a lot of that proactive automation for them, you know, by the fabric by the all this stuff that we're doing through our investment in efforts on the back end. I think it's really important to and yeah, at the end of the day, the other thing that we're doing with that data is generating human readable reports. So we're actually helping our customers at a high level understand the threat, right? So that they can actually create policies on their end to be able to respond to this right hard in their own security. I deal with things like inside of threats for their, you know, networks. These air all suggestions that we give them based off of our experience. You know, we issue our quarterly threat landscape report as an example, >> come into cubes. Some of your people come in the Cuban >> talk about absolutely so That's one product of that hundred billion events that were processing every day. But like I said, it's a multi pronged approach. We're doing a lot with that data, which, which is a great story. I think >> it is. I wish we had more time. Derek, Thank you so much for coming by. And never a dull moment. Never a dull interview when you're here. We appreciate your time. I can't wait to see what that one hundred billion number is. Next year. A forty nine twenty twenty. >> It will be more. I can get you. >> I sound like a well, Derek. Thank you so much. We appreciate it for Peter Burress. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube?

[Music] hi I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube conversation from the cube studios here in beautiful Palo Alto California today we're going to talk about some new things that are happening in the security world obviously this is one of the most important domains within the technology industry and increasingly because of digital business in business overall now to do that we've asked Eric manki to come back Derick is the chief of security insights and global threat alliances at Fort Net Derek welcome back to the cube absolutely the same feel the same way Derek okay so we're going to get into some some predictions about what the bad guys are doing and some predictions about what the defenses are doing how we're going to see them defense opportunities improve but let's set the stage because predictions always are made on some platforms some understanding of where we are and that has also changed pretty dramatically so what's the current state in the overall security world Derek yeah so what we saw this year in 2019 a lot is a big increase on automation and I'm talking from an attackers point of view I think we talked about this a little bit earlier in the year so what we've been seeing is the use of frameworks to enhance sort of the day-to-day cycles that cyber criminals and attackers are using to make their you know criminal operations is that much more efficient sort of a well-oiled machine so we're seeing toolkits that are taking you know things within the attack cycle and attack change such as reconnaissance penetration you know exploitation getting into systems and just making that that much quicker so that that window to attack the time to breach has been shrinking thanks to a lot of these crime kits and services that are offered out there now one other comment on this or another question that I might have on this is that so speed is becoming an issue but also the risk as digital business takes on a larger four portion of overall business activities that ultimately the risks and costs of doing things wrong is also going up if I got the right yeah absolutely for sure and you know it's one of those things that it's the longer that a cybercriminal has a foothold in your system or has the opportunity to move laterally and gain access to other systems maybe it's your I o T or you know other other platforms the higher the risk right like the deeper down they are within an attack cycle the higher the risk and because of these automated toolkits are allowing allowing them to facilitate that it's a catalyst really right they can get into the system they can actually get out that much quicker the risk is a much higher and we're talking about risk we're talking about things like intellectual property exfiltration client information this sort of stuff that can be quite damaging to organizations so with the new foundation of speed is becoming an increasingly important feature probably think about security and the risks are becoming greater because digital assets are being recognized as more valuable why do you take us through some of the four Donets predictions on some of the new threats or the threat landscape how's the threat landscape changing yeah so as I said we've already seen this shift in automation so what I would call the basics I mean knowing the target trying to break into that target right when it comes to breaking into the target cyber criminals right now they're following the path of least resistance right they're finding easy ways that they can get into IOT devices I into other systems in our world when we talk about penetration or breaking into systems it's through zero days right so the idea of a zero day is essentially a cyber weapon there's movies and Hollywood that have been made off of this you look at attacks like Stuxnet in the past they all use zero day vulnerabilities to get into systems all right so the idea of one of the predictions we're seeing is that cyber criminals are gonna start to use artificial intelligence right so we talk about machine learning models and artificial intelligence to actually find these zero days for them so in the world of an attacker to find a zero day they have to do a practice called fuzzing and fuzzing is basically trying to trick up computer code right so you're throwing unverified parameters out at your turn T of throwing and unanticipated sequences into code parameters and and input validation and so forth to the point that the code crashes and that's from an attackers point of view that's when you take control of that code this how you know finding weapons into system cyber weapons in this systems work it typically takes a lot of a lot of resource it takes a lot of cycles it takes a lot of intelligence that takes a lot of time to discovery we can be talking on month for longer it's one of the predictions that we're hitting on is that you know cyber criminals are gonna start to use artificial intelligence fuzzing or AI F as I call it to be able to use AI to do all of that you know intelligent work for them so you know basically having a system that will find these gateways if you will these these you know new vulnerabilities into systems so sustained use of AI F to corrupt models so that they can find vulnerabilities that can then be exploited yeah absolutely and you know when it comes to the world of hacking and fuzzing it's one of the toughest things to do it is the reason that zero days are worth so much money you know they can suffer hundreds of thousands of dollars on darknet and in the cyber criminal you know economy so it's because they're talk talk to finally take a lot of resources a lot of intelligence and a lot of effort to be able to not only find the vulnerability but then actively attack it and exploit it right there's two phases to that yeah so the idea is by using part of the power of artificial intelligence that cyber criminals will start to leverage that and harness it in a bad way to be able to not only discover you know these vulnerabilities but also create that weapon right create the exploit so that they can find more you know more holes if you will or more angles to be able to get into systems now another one is that virtualization is happening in you know what the good guys as we virtualized resources but is it also being exploited or does it have the potential be exploited by the bad guys as well especially in a swarming approach yeah virtualization for sure absolutely so the thing about virtualization too is you often have a lot of virtualization being centralizes especially when we talk about cloud right so you have a lot of potential digital assets you know valuable digital assets that could be physically located in one area so when it comes to using things like artificial intelligence fuzzing not only can it be used to find different vulnerabilities or ways into systems it can also be combined with something like I know we've talked about the const that's warm before so using you know multiple intelligence infected pieces of code that can actually try to break into other virtual resources as well so virtualization asked definitely it because of in some cases close proximity if you will between hypervisors and things like this it's also something of concern for sure now there is a difference between AI fai fuzzing and machine learning talk to us a little bit about some of the trends or some of the predictions that pertain to the advancement of machine learning and how bad guys are going to exploit that sure so machine learning is a core element that is used by artificial intelligence right if you think of artificial intelligence it's a larger term it can be used to do intelligent things but it can only make those decisions based off of a knowledge base right and that's where machine learning comes into place machine learning is it's data it's processing and it's time right so there's various machine learning learning models that are put in place it can be used from everything from autonomous vehicles to speech recognition to certainly cybersecurity and defense that we can talk about but you know the other part that we're talking about in terms of reductions is that it can be used like any tool by the bad guys so the idea is that machine learning can be used to actually study code you know from from a black hat attacker point of view to studying weaknesses in code and that's the idea of artificial intelligence fuzzing is that machine learning is used to find software flaws it finds the weak spots in code and then it actually takes those sweet spots and it starts probing starts trying to attack a crisis you know to make the code crash and then when it actually finds that it can crash the code and that it can try to take advantage of that that's where the artificial intelligence comes in right so the AI engine says hey I learned that this piece of software or this attack target has these weak pieces of code in it that's for the AI model so the I fuzzy comes into place to say how can I actually take advantage how can i exploit this right so that's where the AI trussing comes into play so we've got some predictions about how black hats and bad guys are going to use AI and related technologies to find new vulnerabilities new ways of exploiting things and interacting new types of value out of a business what are the white hats got going for them what are their some of the predictions on some of the new classes of defense that we're going to be able to put to counter some of these new classes of attacks yeah so that's that's you know that's honestly some of the good news I believe you know it's always been an armor an arms race between the bad guys and the good guys that's been going on for decades in terms of cybersecurity often you know the the bad guys are in a favorable position because they can do a million things wrong and they don't care right from the good guys standpoint we can do a million things right one thing wrong and that's an issue so we have to be extra diligent and careful with what we do but with that said you know as an example of 49 we've deployed our forty guard AI right so this is six years in the making six years using machine learning using you know precise models to get higher accuracy low false positives to deploy this at reduction so you know when it comes to the defensive mechanism I really think that we're in the drivers position quite frankly we have better technology than the Wild West that they have out on the bad guys side you know from an organization point of view how do you start combating this sort of onslaught of automation in AI from from the bad guys side well you gotta fight fire with fire right and what I mean by that is you have to have an intelligent security system you know perimeter based firewalls and gateways they don't cut it anymore right you need threat intelligence you need systems that are able to orchestrate and automate together so in different security products and in your security stack or a security fabric that can talk to each other you know share intelligence and then actually automate that so I'm talking about things like creating automated security policies based off of you know threat intelligence finding that a potential threat is trying to get into your network that sort of speed through that integration on the defensive side that intelligence speed is is is the key for it I mean without that any organization is gonna be losing the arms race and I think one of the things that is also happening is we're seeing a greater willingness perhaps not to share data but to share information about the bad things that are happening and I know that fort and it's been something at the vanguard of ensuring that there's even better clearing for this information and then driving that back into code that actually further automates how customers respond to things if I got that right yeah you hit a dead-on absolutely you know that is one of the key things that were focused on is that we realized we can't win this war alone right nobody can on a single point of view so we're doing things like interoperating with security partners we have a fabric ready program as an example we're doing a lot of work in the industry working with as an example Interpol and law enforcement to try to do attribution but though the whole endgame what we're trying to do is to the strategy is to try to make it more expensive for cyber criminals to operate so we obviously do that as a vendor you know through good technology our security fabric I integrated holistic security fabric and approach to be able to make it tougher you know for attackers to get into systems but at the same time you know we're working with law enforcement to find out who these guys are to go after attribution prosecution cut off the head of the snake as I call it right to try to hit cyber criminal organizations where it hurts we're also doing things across vendor in the industry like cyber threat Alliance so you know forty knots a founding member of the cyber threat Alliance we're working with other security vendors to actually share real time information is that speed you know message that we're talking about earlier to share real time information so that each member can take that information and put it into you something actionable right in our case when we get intelligence from other vendors in the cyber threat Alliance as an example we're putting that into our security fabric to protect our customers in new real-time so in sum we're talking about a greater value from being attacked being met with a greater and more cooperative use of technology and process to counter those attacks all right yeah absolutely so open collaboration unified collaboration is is definitely key when it comes to that as well you know the other thing like I said is is it's the is the technology piece you know having integration another thing from the defensive side too which is becoming more of a topic recently is deception deception techniques this is a fascinating area to me right because the idea of deception is the way it sounds instead of to deceive criminals when they're coming knocking on your door into your network so it's really what I call like the the house of a thousand mirrors right so they get into your network and they think they're going to your data store but is it really your data store right it's like it's there's one right target and a thousand wrong targets it's it's a it's a defensive strategy that organizations can play to try to trip up cyber criminals right it makes them slower it makes them more inaccurate it makes them go on the defensive and back to the drawing board which is something absolutely I think we have to do so it's very interesting promising you know technology moving forward in 2019 to essentially fight back against the cyber criminals and to make it more expensive to get access to whatever it is that they want Derek max Lilly yeah Derrick McKey chief of security insights and global threat Alliance this is for net thanks once again for being on the cube it's a pleasure anytime look forward to the next chat and from Peter Burroughs and all of us here at the cube in Palo Alto thank you very much for watching this cube conversation until next time you

>> Narrator: From downtown San Francisco it's the Cube covering RSA North America 2018. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here at the Cube. We're at RSA's security conference, about 40,000 plus. I don't know, I got to get the number. The place is packed, it's a mob scene. Really excited to be here and joined by Derek Manky We saw Derek last year from Fortinet. Great to get an update, Derek, what do you think of the show this year? >> It's getting big for sure, as I said. That's an understatement. >> I know. >> This is my tenth year coming to RSA now, yeah. >> It's your tenth? >> And just to see how it's changed over 10 years is phenomenal. >> Alright. So, one of the things you want to talk about that you probably weren't talking about 10 years are swarms of bots. >> Yeah. >> What the heck is going on with swarms of bots? >> There's been a lot of changes on that front too, so the bad guys are clever, of course, right? If we look at 10 years ago, there was a lot of code, you know, crime kits, crime services that were being created for infrastructure. That led up to some more, you know, getting affiliates programs, kind of, business middle men to distribute crime. So, that drove a lot of the numbers up, but, literally, in the last three quarters, if we look at hacking activity, the number has doubled from FortiGuard labs. It's gone from 1.1 million to 2.2 to 4.4 million just over the last three quarters. So, we're looking at a exponential rise to attacks. The reason that's happening is because automation >> Right. >> And artificial intelligence is starting to be put into black cat code, and so the swarm concept, if you think of bees or ants in nature, what do they do? They work together, it's strength in numbers from a black cat's point of view. >> Right, right. >> They work together to achieve a common goal. So, it's intent based attacks, and that's what we're starting to see as precursors as some code, right? These IoT bot nets, we're actually seeing nodes within the bot net that can communicate to each other, say, "Hey, guys, I found this other target in the network. "Let's go launch a DDOS attack "or let's all try to take different "bits of file information from those targets." So, it's that swarm mentality where it takes the attacker more and more out of the loop. That means that the attack surge is also increasing in speed and becoming more agile too. >> So, the bad news, right, is the bad guys have all the same tools that the good guys have in terms of artificial intelligence, machine learning, automation, software to find and they don't have a lot of rules that they're supposed to follow as well. So, it kind of puts you in a tougher situation. >> Yeah, we're always in a tough situation for sure. You know, I would say, for sure, that when it comes to the tools, a lot of the tools are out there, they custom develop some tools. I would have to say on the technology side when it comes to security members especially collaborating together and the amount of infrastructure that we have set up, I think we have a foot up on the attackers there, we're at an advantage, but you're absolutely right, when it comes to rules, there are no rules when it comes to the black cat attackers and we have to be very careful of that, how we proceed, of course, right. >> And that's really the idea behind the alliance, right, so, that you guys are sharing information. >> Yeah. >> So, you're sharing best practices, you're picking up patterns. So, everybody's not out there all by themselves. >> Absolutely, it's strength in numbers concept on our end too. So, we look at Cyber Threat Alliance, Fortinet being out founding member working with all other leading security vendors in this space is how we can team up against the bad guys, share actionable intelligence, deploy that into our security controls which makes it a very effective solution, right. By teaming up, stacking up our security, it makes it much more expensive for cyber criminals to operate. >> Right, that's good. >> Yeah. >> That's a good thing. >> Yeah, yes. >> And then, what about kind of this integration of the knock and the sock? >> Yeah. >> Because security's so much more important for all aspects of the business, right? It's not layered on, it's not stand alone. It's really got to be integrated into the software, into the process and the operations. >> Absolutely, so, the good news is, if you look at things like we're doing with the security fabric, a lot of it is how do we integrate, how do we bring technology and intelligence down to the end user so that they don't have to do day-to-day mundane tasks, right? Talking about the swarm networks, what's happening on the black cats' side, attackers are gettin' much quicker so defense solutions have to be just as quick if not faster, and so that's what the knock sock integration is about, right, how we can take network's security visibility, put it into things like our FortiAnalyzer manager sim appliances, right, be able to bring those solutions so, again, to when it comes to a knock and sock operation, how do you bring visibility into threats? How do you respond to those threats? More importantly, how do you also have automated security defense, so agile defense, put up? >> Right. >> We talk about concepts like agile macrosegmentation, right? That's something we're doing with Fortinet, how we can look at attacks and actively lock down attacks as they're happening is a really concept, right? >> So, really, just to isolate 'em within kind of where they've caused the harm, keep 'em there until you can handle 'em and not let 'em just go bananas all over the orientation. >> Yeah, yeah, so you can think of it as, like, an active quarantine. We've also launched our threat intelligence services. So, this is bringing the why. There's a lot of intelligence out there. There's a lot of logs. We have, now,, threat intelligence services that we bring to security operation centers to show them here are the threats happening on your network. Here is why it is a threat. Here's the capabilities of the threat and here's how you respond to it. So, it helps from a CSOL perspective prioritized response on the incident response model to threats as well. >> Alright, well, Derek, we've got to let it go there. We are at a super crazy time crunch. >> I know. >> We'll get you back into the studio and have a little bit more time when it's not so crazy. >> Okay, I appreciate it. >> Alright, he's Derek Manky, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching the Cube from RSA 2018, thanks for watchin'. (soft electronic beat)

>>Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering Fortinet Accelerate 18. Brought to you by Fortinet. >> Welcome to Fortinet Accelerate 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE and we're excited to be here doing our second year of coverage of this longstanding event. My cohost for the day is Peter Burris; excited to be co-hosting with Peter again, and we're very excited to be joined by the CEO, Founder, and Chief Chairman of Fortinet, Ken Xie, Ken welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Lisa, thank you, Peter. Happy to be here. >> It's great to be here for us as well, and the title of your Keynote was Leading the Change in Security Transformation, but something as a marketer I geeked out on before that, was the tagline of the event, Strength in Numbers. You shared some fantastic numbers that I'm sure you're quite proud of. In 2017, $1.8 in billing, huge growth in customer acquisitions 17.8 thousand new customers acquired in 2017 alone, and you also shared that Forinet protects around 90% of the Global S&P 100. Great brands and logos you shared Apple, Coca Cola, Oracle. Tell us a little bit more and kind of as an extension of your Keynote, this strength in numbers that you must be very proud of. >> Yeah, I'm an engineer background, always liked the number, and not only we become much bigger company, we actually has 25 to 30% global employment in a network security space. That give a huge customer base and last year sales grow 19% and we keeping leading the space with a new product we just announced today. The FortiGate 6000 and also the FortiOS 6.0. So all this changing the landscape and like I said last year we believe the space is in a transition now, they've got a new generation infrastructure security, so we want to lead again. We started the company 18 years ago to get into we called a UTM network firewall space. We feel infrastructure security is very important now. And that we want to lead in the transition and lead in the change. >> So growth was a big theme or is a big theme. Some of the things that we're also interesting is another theme of really this evolution, this landscape I think you and Peter will probably get into more the technology, but give our viewers a little bit of an extension of what you shared in your keynote about the evolution. These three generations of internet and network security. >> Yeah, when I first start my network security career the first company I was study at Stanford University, I was in the 20s. It was very exciting is that a space keeping changing and grow very fast, that makes me keeping have to learning everyday and that I like. And then we start a company call Net Screen when it was early 30s, that's my second company. We call the first generation network security which secured a connection into the trust company environment and the Net Screens a leader, later being sold for $4 billion. Then starting in 2000, we see the space changing. Basically you only secure the connection, no longer enough. Just like a today you only validate yourself go to travel with a ticket no longer enough, they need to see what you carry, what's the what's the luggage has, right. So that's where we call them in application and content security they call the UTM firewall, that's how Fortinet started. That's the second generation starting replacing the first generation. But compared to 18 years ago, since change it again and nowadays the data no longer stay inside company, they go to the mobile device, they go to the cloud, they call auditive application go to the IoT is everywhere. So that's where the security also need to be changed and follow the important data secure the whole infrastructure. That's why keeping talking from last year this year is really the infrastructure security that secure fabric the starting get very important and we want to lead in this space again like we did 18 years ago starting Fortinet. >> Ken, I'd like to tie that, what you just talked about, back to this notion of strength in numbers. Clearly the bad guys that would do a company harm are many and varied and sometimes they actually work together. There's danger in numbers Fortinet is trying to pull together utilizing advanced technologies, new ways of using data and AI and pattern recognition and a lot of other things to counter effect that. What does that say about the nature of the relationships that Fortinet is going to have to have with its customers going forward? How is that evolving, the idea of a deeper sharing? What do you think? >> Actually, the good guy also started working together now. We formed the they call it the Cyber Threat Alliance, the CTA, and Fortinet is one of the founding company with the five other company including Palo Alto Network, Check Point and McAfee and also feel a Cisco, there's a few other company all working together now. We also have, we call, the Fabric-Ready Program which has 42 big partners including like IBM, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, all this bigger company because to defend the latest newest Fabric threat you have to be working together and that also protect the whole infrastructure. You also need a few company working together and it's a because on average every big enterprise they deploy 20 to 30 different products from different company. Management cost is number one, the highest cost in the big enterprise security space because you have to learn so many different products from so many different vendor, most of them competitor and now even working together, now communicate together. So that's where we want to change the landscape. We want to provide how infrastructure security can work better and not only partner together but also share the data, share the information, share the intelligence. >> So fundamentally there is the relationship is changing very dramatically as a way of countering the bad actors by having the good actors work more closely together and that drives a degree of collaboration coordination and a new sense of trust. But you also mentioned that the average enterprise is 20 to 30 fraud based security products. Every time you introduce a new product, you introduce some benefits you introduce some costs, potentially some new threat surfaces. How should enterprises think about what is too many, what is not enough when they start thinking about the partnerships that needed put together to sustain that secure profile? >> In order to have the best protection today you need to secure the whole infrastructure, the whole cyberspace. Network security still the biggest and also grow very fast and then there's the endpoint and there's a like a cloud security, there's a whole different application, email, web and all the other cloud all the other IoT. You really need to make sure all these different piece working together, communicate together and the best way is really, they have to have a single panel of our management service. They can look at them, they can make it integrate together they can automate together, because today's attack can happen within seconds when they get in the company network. It's very difficult for human to react on that. That's where how to integrate, how to automate, this different piece, that is so important. That's where the Fabric approach, the infrastructure approach get very important. Otherwise, you cannot react quick enough, in fact, to defend yourself in a current environment. On the other side for your question, how many vendor do you have, I feel the less the better. At least they have to work together. If they're not working together, will make it even more difficult to defend because each part they not communicate and not react and not automate will make the job very, very difficult and that's where all this working together and the less vendor they can all responsible for all your security it's better. So that's where we see some consolidation in the space. They do still have a lot of new company come up, like you mentioned, there's close to 2,000 separate security company. A lot of them try to address the point solution. I mentioned there's a four different level engineer after engineer work there because I see 90% company they do the detection. There's a certain application you can detect the intrusion and then the next level is where they after you attack what are going to do about it. Is it really the prevention setting kick in automatic pull out the bad actor. After that, then you need to go to the integration because there's so many different products, so many different piece you need to working together, that's the integration. Eventually the performance and cost. Because security on average still cost 100 times more expensive under same traffic and also much slower compared to the routing switch in networking device. That's what the performance cost. Also starting in the highest level, that's also very difficult to handle. >> So, we're just enough to start with the idea of data integration, secure data integration amongst the security platform, so enough to do as little as possible, as few as possible to do that, but enough to cover all the infrastructure. >> Yes, because the data is all a whole different structure. You no longer does have to trust environment. Because even inside the company, there's so many different way you can access to the outside, whether it by your mobile device so there's a multiple way you can connect on the internet and today in the enterprise 90% connection goes to Wi-Fi now it's not goes to a wired network, that's also difficult to manage. So that's where we will hide it together and make it all working together it's very important. >> So, in the spirit of collaboration, collaborating with vendors. When you're talking with enterprises that have this myriad security solutions in place now, how are they helping to guide and really impact Fortinet's technologies to help them succeed. What's that kind of customer collaboration like, I know you meet with a lot of customers, how are they helping to influence the leading security technologies you deliver? >> We always want to listen the customer. They have the highest priority, they gave us the best feedback. Like the presentation they talked about there's a case from Olerica which is where they have a lot of branch office and they want to use in the latest technology and networking technology, SD-WAN. Are working together with security, that's ready the new trend and how to make sure they have all the availability, they have the flexibility software-defined networking there and also make sure to security also there to handle the customer data, that's all very important so that's what we work very closely with customer to response what they need. That's where I'm still very proud to be no longer kind of engineer anymore but will still try to build in an engineer technology company. Listen to the customer react quick because to handle security space, cyber security, internet security, you have to work to quickly react for the change, on internet, on application. So that's where follow the customer and give them the quick best solution it's very very important. >> On the customer side in Anaemia we talked about that was talked a little bit about this morning with GDPR are is around the corner, May 2018. Do you see your work coordinates work with customers in Anaemia as potentially being, kind of, leading-edge to help customers in the Americas and Asia-Pacific be more prepared for different types of compliance regulations? >> We see the GDPR as an additional opportunity, as a additional complement solution compared to all the new product technology would come up. They definitely gave us an additional business rate, additional opportunity, to really help customer protect the data, make the data stay in their own environment and the same time, internet is a very global thing, and how to make sure different country, different region, working together is also very important. I think it's a GDPR is a great opportunity to keeping expanding a security space and make it safer for the consumer for the end-user. >> So Ken as CEO Fortinet or a CEO was tough act, but as CEO you have to be worried about the security of your business and as a security company you're as much attacked, if not more attacked than a lot of other people because getting to your stuff would allow folks to get to a lot of other stuff. How do you regard the Fortinet capabilities inside Fortinet capability as providing you a source of differentiation in the technology industry? >> Yeah we keep security in mind as the highest priority within a company. That's where we develop a lot of product, we also internally use tests first. You can see from endpoint, the network side, the email, to the web, to the Wi-Fi access, to the cloud, to the IoT, it's all developing internally, it tests internally so the infrastructure security actually give you multiple layer protection. No longer just have one single firewall, you pass the fire were all open up. It's really multiple layer, like a rather the ransomware or something they had to pass multiple layer protection in order to really reach the data there. So that's where we see the infrastructure security with all different products and developed together, engineer working together is very important. And we also have were strong engineer and also we call the IT security team lead by Phil Cauld, I think you are being interview him later and he has a great team and a great experience in NSA for about 30 years, secure country. And that's where we leverage the best people, the best technology to provide the best security. Not only the portal side, also our own the internal security in this space. >> So, in the last minute or so that we have here, one of the things that Patrice Perce your global sales leader said during his keynote this morning was that security transformation, this is the year for it. So, in a minute or so, kind of what are some of the things besides fueling security transformation for your customers do you see as priorities and an exciting futures this year for Fortinet, including you talked about IoT, that's a $9 billion opportunity. You mentioned the securing the connected car to a very cool car in there, what are some of the things that are exciting to you as the leader of this company in 2018? >> We host some basic technology, not another company has. Like a built in security for a single chip. I also mentioned like some other bigger company, like a Google started building a TPU for the cloud computing and Nvidia the GPU. So we actually saw this vision 18 years ago when we start a company and the combine the best hardware and best technology with solve for all this service together. So, long term you will see the huge benefit and that's also like translate into today you can see all these technology enable us to really provide a better service to the customer to the partner and we all starting benefit for all this investment right now. >> Well Ken, thank you so much for joining us back on theCUBE. It's our pleasure to be here at the 16th year of the event, our second time here. Thanks for sharing your insight and we're looking forward to a great show. >> Thank you, great questions, it's the best platform to really promoting the technology, promoting the infrastructure security, thank you very much. >> Likewise, we like to hear that. For my co-host Peter Burris, I'm Lisa Martin, we are coming to you from Fortinet Accelerate 2018. Thanks for watching, stick around we have great content coming up.

>> (Narrator) Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering Fortinet Accelerate 18. Brought to you by Fortinet. >> Welcome to Fortinet Accelerate 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE and we're excited to be here doing our second year of coverage of this longstanding event. My cohost for the day is Peter Burris; excited to be co-hosting with Peter again, and we're very excited to be joined by the CEO, Founder, and Chief Chairman of Fortinet, Ken Xie, Ken welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Lisa, thank you, Peter. Happy to be here. >> It's great to be here for us as well, and the title of your Keynote was Leading the Change in Security Transformation, but something as a marketer I geeked out on before that, was the tagline of the event, Strength in Numbers. You shared some fantastic numbers that I'm sure you're quite proud of. In 207, $1.8 in billing, huge growth in customer acquisitions 17.8 thousand new customers acquired in 2017 alone, and you also shared that Forinet protects around 90% of the Global S&P 100. Great brands and logos you shared Apple, Coca Cola, Oracle. Tell us a little bit more and kind of as an extension of your Keynote, this strength in numbers that you must be very proud of. >> Yeah, I'm an engineer background, always liked the number, and not only we become much bigger company, we actually has 25 to 30% global employment in a network security space. That give a huge customer base and last year sales grow 19% and we keeping leading the space with a new port out we just announced today. The FortiGate 6000 and also the FortiOS 6.0. So all this changing in the landscape and like I said last year we believe the space is in a transition now, they've got a new generation infrastructure security, so we want to lead again. We started the company 18 years ago to get into we called a UTM network firewall space. We feel infrastructure security is very important now. And that we want to lead in the transition and lead in the change. >> So growth was a big theme or is a big theme. Some of the things that we're also interesting is another theme of really this evolution, this landscape I think you and Peter will probably get into more the technology, but give our viewers a little bit of an extension of what you shared in your keynote about the evolution. These three generations of internet and network security. >> Yeah, when I first start my network security career the first company I was study at Stanford University, I was in the 20s. It was very exciting is that a space keeping changing and grow very fast, that makes me keeping have to learning everyday and that I like. And then we start a company call Net Screen when it was early 30s, that's my second company. We call the first generation network security which secured a connection into the trust company environment and the Net Screens a leader, later being sold for $4 billion. Then starting in 2000, we see the space changing. Basically you only secure the connection, no longer enough. Just like a today you only validate yourself go to travel with a ticket no longer enough, they need to see what you carry, what's the what's the luggage has, right. So that's where we call them in application and content security they call the UTM firewall, that's how Fortinet started. That's the second generation starting replacing the first generation. But compared to 18 years ago, since change it again and nowadays the data no longer stay inside company, they go to the mobile device, they go to the cloud, they call auditive application go to the IoT is everywhere. So that's where the security also need to be changed and follow the important data secure the whole infrastructure. That's why keeping talking from last year this year is really the infrastructure security that secure fabric the starting get very important and we want to lead in this space again like we did 18 years ago starting Fortinet. >> Ken, I'd like to tie that, what you just talked about, back to this notion of strength in numbers. Clearly the bad guys that would do a company harm are many and varied and sometimes they actually work together. There's danger in numbers Fortinet is trying to pull together utilizing advanced technologies, new ways of using data and AI and pattern recognition and a lot of other things to counter effect that. What does that say about the nature of the relationships that Fortinet is going to have to have with its customers going forward? How is that evolving, the idea of a deeper sharing? What do you think? >> Actually, the good guy also started working together now. We formed the they call it the Cyber Threat Alliance, the CTA, and Fortinet is one of the founding company with the five other company including Palo Alto Network, Check Point and McAfee and also feel a Cisco, there's a few other company all working together now. We also have, we call, the Fabric-Ready Program which has a 42 bigger partner including like IBM, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, all this bigger company because to defend the latest newest Fabric threat you have to be working together and that also protect the whole infrastructure. You also need a few company working together and it's a because on average every big enterprise they deploy 20 to 30 different products from different company. Management cost is number one, the highest cost in the big enterprise security space because you have to learn so many different products from so many different vendor, most of them competitor and now even working together, now communicate together. So that's where we want to change the landscape. We want to provide how infrastructure security can work better and not only partner together but also share the data, share the information, share the intelligence. >> So fundamentally there is the relationship is changing very dramatically as a way of countering the bad actors by having the good actors work more closely together and that drives a degree of collaboration coordination and a new sense of trust. But you also mentioned that the average enterprise is 20 to 30 fraud based security products. Every time you introduce a new product, you introduce some benefits you introduce some costs, potentially some new threat surfaces. How should enterprises think about what is too many, what is not enough when they start thinking about the partnerships that needed put together to sustain that secure profile? >> In order to have the best protection today you need to secure the whole infrastructure, the whole cyberspace. Network security still the biggest and also grow very fast and then there's the endpoint and there's a like a cloud security, there's a whole different application, email, web and all the other cloud all the other IoT. You really need to make sure all these different piece working together, communicate together and the best way is really, they have to have a single panel of our management service. They can look at them, they can make it integrate together they can automate together, because today's attack can happen within seconds when they get in the company network. It's very difficult for human to react on that. That's where how to integrate, how to automate, this different piece, that is so important. That's where the Fabric approach, the infrastructure approach get very important. Otherwise, you cannot react quick enough, in fact, to defend yourself in a current environment. On the other side for your question, how many vendor do you have, I feel the less the better. At least they have to work together. If they're not working together, will make it even more difficult to defend because each part they not communicate and not react and not automate will make the job very, very difficult and that's where all this working together and the less vendor they can all responsible for all your security it's better. So that's where we see some consolidation in the space. They do still have a lot of new company come up, like you mentioned, there's close to 2,000 separate security company. A lot of them try to address the point solution. I mentioned there's a four different level engineer after engineer work there because I see 90% company they do the detection. There's a certain application you can detect the intrusion and then the next level is where they after you attack what are going to do about it. Is it really the prevention setting kick in automatic pull out the bad actor. After that, then you need to go to the integration because there's so many different products, so many different piece you need to working together, that's the integration. Eventually the performance and cost. Because security on average still cost 100 times more expensive under same traffic and also much slower compared to the routing switch in networking device. That's what the performance cost. Also starting in the highest level, that's also very difficult to handle. >> So, we're just enough to start with the idea of data integration, secure data integration amongst the security platform, so enough to do as little as possible, as few as possible to do that, but enough to cover all the infrastructure. >> Yes, because the data is all a whole different structure. You no longer does have to trust environment. Because even inside the company, there's so many different way you can access to the outside, whether it by your mobile device so there's a multiple way you can connect on the internet and today in the enterprise 90% connection goes to Wi-Fi now it's not goes to a wired network, that's also difficult to manage. So that's where we will hide it together and make it all working together it's very important. >> So, in the spirit of collaboration, collaborating with vendors. When you're talking with enterprises that have this myriad security solutions in place now, how are they helping to guide and really impact Fortinet's technologies to help them succeed. What's that kind of customer collaboration like, I know you meet with a lot of customers, how are they helping to influence the leading security technologies you deliver? >> We always want to listen the customer. They have the highest priority, they gave us the best feedback. Like the presentation they talked about there's a case from Olerica which is where they have a lot of branch office and they want to use in the latest technology and networking technology. I see when I'm working together with security, that's ready the new trend and how to make sure they have all the availability, they have the flexibility software-defined networking there and also make sure to security also there to handle the customer data, that's all very important so that's what we work very closely with customer to response what they need. That's where I'm still very proud to be no longer kind of engineer anymore but will still try to build in an engineer technology company. Lesson to the customer react quick because to handle security space, cyber security, internet security, you have to be work quickly react for the change, on internet, on application. So that's where follow the customer and give them the quick best solution it's very very important. On the customer side in Anaemia we talked about that was talked a little bit about this morning with GDPR are is around the corner, May 2018. Do you see your work coordinates work with customers in Anaemia as potentially being, kind of, leading-edge to help customers in the Americas and Asia-Pacific be more prepared for different types of compliance regulations? >> We see the GDPR as an additional opportunity, as a additional complement solution compared to all the new product technology would come up. They definitely gave us an additional business rate, additional opportunity, to really help customer protect the data, make the data stay in their own environment and the same time, internet is a very global thing, and how to make sure different country, different region, working together is also very important. I think it's a GDPR is a great opportunity to keeping expanding a security space and make it safer for the consumer for the end-user. >> So Ken as CEO Fortinet or a CEO was tough act, but as CEO you have to be worried about the security of your business and as a security company you're as much attacked, if not more attacked than a lot of other people because getting to your stuff would allow folks to get to a lot of other stuff. How do you regard the Fortinet capabilities inside Fortinet capability as providing you a source of differentiation in the technology industry? >> Yeah we keep security in mind as the highest priority within a company. That's where we develop a lot of product, we also internally use tests first. You can see from endpoint, the network side, the email, to the web, to the Wi-Fi access, to the cloud, to the IoT, it's all developing internally, it tests internally so the infrastructure security actually give you multiple layer protection. No longer just have one single firewall, you pass the fire were all open up. It's really multiple layer, like a rather the ransomware or something they had to pass multiple layer protection in order to really reach the data there. So that's where we see the infrastructure security with all different products and developed together, engineer working together is very important. And we also have were strong engineer and also we call the IT security team lead by Phil Cauld, I think you are being interview him later and he has a great team and a great experience in NSA for about 30 years, secure country. And that's where we leverage the best people, the best technology to provide the best security. Not only the portal side, also our own the internal security in this space. >> So, in the last minute or so that we have here, one of the things that Patrice Perce your global sales leader said during his keynote this morning was that security transformation, this is the year for it. So, in a minute or so, kind of what are some of the things besides fueling security transformation for your customers do you see as priorities and an exciting futures this year for Fortinet, including you talked about IoT, that's a $9 billion opportunity. You mentioned the securing the connected car to a very cool car in there, what are some of the things that are exciting to you as the leader of this company in 2018? >> We host some basic technology, not another company has. Like a built in security for a single chip. I also mentioned like some other bigger company, like a Google started building a TPU for the cloud computing and Nvidia the GPU. So we actually saw this vision 18 years ago when we start a company and the combine the best hardware and best technology with solve for all this service together. So, long term you will see the huge benefit and that's also like translate into today you can see all these technology enable us to really provide a better service to the customer to the partner and we all starting benefit for all this investment right now. >> Well Ken, thank you so much for joining us back on theCUBE. It's our pleasure to be here at the 16th year of the event, our second time here. Thanks for sharing your insight and we're looking forward to a great show. >> Thank you, great questions, it's the best platform to really promoting the technology, promoting the infrastructure security, thank you very much. >> Likewise, we like to hear that. For my co-host Peter Burris, I'm Lisa Martin, we are coming to you from Fortinet Accelerate 2018. Thanks for watching, stick around we have great content coming up.

(instrumental electronic music) (crowd) >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick, here with The Cube. We are live in Moscone Center, with 40,000 security experts at the RSA Conference, the biggest conference of its size, and one of the biggest tech conferences in the industry, second maybe only to Salesforce and Oracle's. So, there's a lot people here, a lot of action-- >> Absolutely. >> We're excited to be joined by the president of RSA, Rohit Ghai. Welcome. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> So first thing, kind of impressions of the show, we were here briefly last year, this thing was 34,000. This year, they're saying it's 40. >> Forty thousand, yeah. Look, RSA has the great burden and privilege of bringing the cyber security community together, and it's a true testimonial to the caliber of the people that this year we are able to attract 40,000 people. We have almost 500 plus, 550-something, I believe vendors and exhibitors. And the level of the conversation, in terms of the CEOs from different countries, the CEOs from all the mega corporations, public sector participants, the entire gamut of cyber security stakeholders are here today. >> That's an interesting kind of take because on one hand, you think there's so many people, but as a few people had mentioned earlier, really they're all here so, and on the grand scheme of things, it's not that many people. It's really this group of people-- >> Exactly. >> And they all know each other. People are all giving each other hugs, as they're walking up and down the booth, so this really is it. >> This is a community, and it's a tight-knit community. It's all the good guys and some linked together (laughing), and figured out what to do about the bad guys (laughing). >> I know, I just hope they all don't go to the bad side at the same time, we'd be in trouble. >> Absolutely. >> One of the things that comes up over and over at tech conferences specifically, and at here, too, is the ecosystem. >> Rohit: Yeah. >> Right? Nobody can do it alone-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> You've got to have an ecosystem-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> And there's a lot of conversations about sharing information-- >> Yep. >> More broadly-- >> Yep. Yep. >> More automated, faster-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> Really an important part of the strategy to fight the bad guys. >> Absolutely. In fact, that was a recurring theme from all the keynote speakers this morning, the notion of working together. The only shot we have of beating the bad guys is if we collaborate and share the information that we have, and go at it together. So, the ecosystem is super important to your point. >> Yep. So, what are some that are accounted for the people that aren't here-- >> Rohit: Yep. Kind of the key themes, some of the big announcement that RSA's make-- >> Rohit: Yeah. >> And I know the press release feed is full (laughing) this morning-- >> Rohit: Yeah. >> But what are you guys excited about for this year? >> Look, what I'm most excited about is a new approach. And here's the way I tee it up, the bad guys are getting really good, right? Every company is going digital, and digital companies are really juicy targets. We don't have enough good guys to fight on our behalf, enough trained good guys, which means we ought to bring technology to assist use, all the things like advanced, artificial intelligence, machine learning, data science, all those things have great capabilities, but the reality is we have to realize the bad guys have all the same technology that we do. So, it's not a technology problem anymore-- >> Right, right. >> We have to play to our strengths, play to our advantage, so this new approach, we call it business-driven security, which means take the security incidents and apply business context to it, enabling customers to take command of their cyber risk, and secure and protect what matters most. >> Right, right. >> So, it's a sense of prioritization, and if we do that successfully, then we are able to keep the bad guys, they're only inside the door, but we can curtail the damage and we can detect the breaches, and respond in a much more expedient manner. >> Right, always the problems within arm's race, right? Both people have the same amount of weapons, so it's how to use those weapons-- >> Rohit: It's how to use the weapons. >> More effectively. >> Absolutely. And therein the context is super important if you're going to apply business context to the way you apply that information-- >> Right. >> With those tools, that's how you win. >> Now, another theme that keeps coming up is kind of state-sponsored threats-- >> Rohit: Yep, yep. >> Which are different than, maybe, kind of commercially, or just-- >> Rohit: Yep, Yep. >> Kind of activists. >> Rohit: Yep. >> That's really changing the game because-- >> Rohit: It is. >> The resources behind those folks significantly bigger. >> Indeed. So, there's new kind of bad guys, like the nation state threat actors, and their objectives are totally different, right? Their objective is not just to steal data, but to tamper with data, and change the conversations as we saw in the case of the election-- >> Right, right. this year, the presidential elections. By tampering data you can actually shift conversations and influence outcomes, so it's a whole new ball game, in terms of the new types of threats and new types of threat actors like nation states, who are getting into the game. >> Yeah, I thought one of the interesting points that came up earlier in the keynote today-- >> Rohit: Yeah. >> I think they called it salting or spiking the algorithm-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> With intentional bad data to send the algorithm on a path, in which it really shouldn't go. >> Exactly, exactly. And the way you respond to that is, again, to back to my point around business-driven security. If you have data, and if you understand the business context around how that data ought to be used, then you're able to protect it and secure it, and make sure it doesn't get weaponized, or used against you. >> Right, right. And another theme that came up at another session I attended is kind of the unique role that companies are in versus-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> The government-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> Because even if there is state-sponsored-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> Issues going on-- >> Rohit: Yep. >> Because many of the companies, RSA included-- >> Rohit: Yeah. >> Operate globally across the number of geos. >> Yep. >> They potentially have even more data, different data, to fight the threat than any one government does on its own. >> Indeed, and this is where sharing of information is vital, and along those lines, RSA is excited to announce this year that we've joined the Cyber Threat Alliance, which is a consortium of private companies who have decided that it's not the threat intel data, it's how you use it that's going to be the differentiating factor. >> Right. >> So, in the spirit and vein of working together, we are sharing threat data with each other, so that we can respond to the bad guys. >> Right. So, give you the last word-- >> Rohit: Yeah. >> It's February 14th, Happy Valentine's Day. Start of the new year, what are some of your priorities as you look down the other road, what are we going to be talking about a year from now? >> Yeah. >> What's things that are on your plate that you're really thinking about? >> Yeah, yeah. Look, so, in the vein of Valentine's Day, I totally love cyber security (laughing). Let me say that, and in terms of what we're looking forward to. Look, RSA is in the game to innovate and set the table, and set the agenda for the cyber security market. We play the role of bringing the cyber security community together, but it's our innovation along the axis of business-driven security. We want to take that conversation, drive that into the industry because we believe that without that, we don't have a shot of beating the bad guys. >> Right. Alright, well, we're all rooting for you (laughing)-- >> Thank you. I appreciate that. >> And everybody else in this building, alright. >> I appreciate that. Thanks. >> He's Rohit. I'm Jeff. You're watching The Cube, live from RSA 2017, in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. >> Thank you. (instrumental electronic music) (upbeat instrumental music)