>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> After a two-year epic run in tech, 2022 has been an epically bad year. Through yesterday, The NASDAQ composite is down 30%. The S$P 500 is off 21%. And the Dow Jones Industrial average 16% down. And the poor holders at Bitcoin have had to endure a nearly 60% decline year to date. But judging by the attendance and enthusiasm, in major in-person tech events this spring. You'd never know that tech was in the tank. Moreover, walking around the streets of Las Vegas, where most tech conferences are held these days. One can't help but notice that the good folks of Main Street, don't seem the least bit concerned that the economy is headed for a recession. Hello, and welcome to this weeks Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we'll share our main takeaways from the first half of 2022. And talk about the outlook for tech going forward, and why despite some pretty concerning headwinds we remain sanguine about tech generally, but especially enterprise tech. Look, here's the bumper sticker on why many folks are really bearish at the moment. Of course, inflation is high, other than last year, the previous inflation high this century was in July of 2008, it was 5.6%. Inflation has proven to be very, very hard to tame. You got gas at $7 dollars a gallon. Energy prices they're not going to suddenly drop. Interest rates are climbing, which will eventually damage housing. Going to have that ripple effect, no doubt. We're seeing layoffs at companies like Tesla and the crypto names are also trimming staff. Workers, however are still in short supply. So wages are going up. Companies in retail are really struggling with the right inventory, and they can't even accurately guide on their earnings. We've seen a version of this movie before. Now, as it pertains to tech, Crawford Del Prete, who's the CEO of IDC explained this on theCUBE this very week. And I thought he did a really good job. He said the following, >> Matt, you have a great statistic that 80% of companies used COVID as their point to pivot into digital transformation. And to invest in a different way. And so what we saw now is that tech is now where I think companies need to focus. They need to invest in tech. They need to make people more productive with tech and it played out in the numbers. Now so this year what's fascinating is we're looking at two vastly different markets. We got gasoline at $7 a gallon. We've got that affecting food prices. Interesting fun fact recently it now costs over $1,000 to fill an 18 wheeler. All right, based on, I mean, this just kind of can't continue. So you think about it. >> Don't put the boat in the water. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good luck if ya, yeah exactly. So a family has kind of this bag of money, and that bag of money goes up by maybe three, 4% every year, depending upon earnings. So that is sort of sloshing around. So if food and fuel and rent is taking up more, gadgets and consumer tech are not, you're going to use that iPhone a little longer. You're going to use that Android phone a little longer. You're going to use that TV a little longer. So consumer tech is getting crushed, really it's very, very, and you saw it immediately in ad spending. You've seen it in Meta, you've seen it in Facebook. Consumer tech is doing very, very, it is tough. Enterprise tech, we haven't been in the office for two and a half years. We haven't upgraded whether that be campus wifi, whether that be servers, whether that be commercial PCs as much as we would have. So enterprise tech, we're seeing double digit order rates. We're seeing strong, strong demand. We have combined that with a component shortage, and you're seeing some enterprise companies with a quarter of backlog, I mean that's really unheard of. >> And higher prices, which also profit. >> And therefore that drives up the prices. >> And this is a theme that we've heard this year at major tech events, they've really come roaring back. Last year, theCUBE had a huge presence at AWS Reinvent. The first Reinvent since 2019, it was really well attended. Now this was before the effects of the omicron variant, before they were really well understood. And in the first quarter of 2022, things were pretty quiet as far as tech events go But theCUBE'a been really busy this spring and early into the summer. We did 12 physical events as we're showing here in the slide. Coupa, did Women in Data Science at Stanford, Coupa Inspire was in Las Vegas. Now these are both smaller events, but they were well attended and beat expectations. San Francisco Summit, the AWS San Francisco Summit was a bit off, frankly 'cause of the COVID concerns. They were on the rise, then we hit Dell Tech World which was packed, it had probably around 7,000 attendees. Now Dockercon was virtual, but we decided to include it here because it was a huge global event with watch parties and many, many tens of thousands of people attending. Now the Red Hat Summit was really interesting. The choice that Red Hat made this year. It was purposefully scaled down and turned into a smaller VIP event in Boston at the Western, a couple thousand people only. It was very intimate with a much larger virtual presence. VeeamON was very well attended, not as large as previous VeeamON events, but again beat expectations. KubeCon and Cloud Native Con was really successful in Spain, Valencia, Spain. PagerDuty Summit was again a smaller intimate event in San Francisco. And then MongoDB World was at the new Javits Center and really well attended over the three day period. There were lots of developers there, lots of business people, lots of ecosystem partners. And then the Snowflake summit in Las Vegas, it was the most vibrant from the standpoint of the ecosystem with nearly 10,000 attendees. And I'll come back to that in a moment. Amazon re:Mars is the Amazon AI robotic event, it's smaller but very, very cool, a lot of innovation. And just last week we were at HPE Discover. They had around 8,000 people attending which was really good. Now I've been to over a dozen HPE or HPE Discover events, within Europe and the United States over the past decade. And this was by far the most vibrant, lot of action. HPE had a little spring in its step because the company's much more focused now but people was really well attended and people were excited to be there, not only to be back at physical events, but also to hear about some of the new innovations that are coming and HPE has a long way to go in terms of building out that ecosystem, but it's starting to form. So we saw that last week. So tech events are back, but they are smaller. And of course now a virtual overlay, they're hybrid. And just to give you some context, theCUBE did, as I said 12 physical events in the first half of 2022. Just to compare that in 2019, through June of that year we had done 35 physical events. Yeah, 35. And what's perhaps more interesting is we had our largest first half ever in our 12 year history because we're doing so much hybrid and virtual to compliment the physical. So that's the new format is CUBE plus digital or sometimes just digital but that's really what's happening in our business. So I think it's a reflection of what's happening in the broader tech community. So everyone's still trying to figure that out but it's clear that events are back and there's no replacing face to face. Or as I like to say, belly to belly, because deals are done at physical events. All these events we've been to, the sales people are so excited. They're saying we're closing business. Pipelines coming out of these events are much stronger, than they are out of the virtual events but the post virtual event continues to deliver that long tail effect. So that's not going to go away. The bottom line is hybrid is the new model. Okay let's look at some of the big themes that we've taken away from the first half of 2022. Now of course, this is all happening under the umbrella of digital transformation. I'm not going to talk about that too much, you've had plenty of DX Kool-Aid injected into your veins over the last 27 months. But one of the first observations I'll share is that the so-called big data ecosystem that was forming during the hoop and around, the hadoop infrastructure days and years. then remember it dispersed, right when the cloud came in and kind of you know, not wiped out but definitely dampened the hadoop enthusiasm for on-prem, the ecosystem dispersed, but now it's reforming. There are large pockets that are obviously seen in the various clouds. And we definitely see a ecosystem forming around MongoDB and the open source community gathering in the data bricks ecosystem. But the most notable momentum is within the Snowflake ecosystem. Snowflake is moving fast to win the day in the data ecosystem. They're providing a single platform that's bringing different data types together. Live data from systems of record, systems of engagement together with so-called systems of insight. These are converging and while others notably, Oracle are architecting for this new reality, Snowflake is leading with the ecosystem momentum and a new stack is emerging that comprises cloud infrastructure at the bottom layer. Data PaaS layer for app dev and is enabling an ecosystem of partners to build data products and data services that can be monetized. That's the key, that's the top of the stack. So let's dig into that further in a moment but you're seeing machine intelligence and data being driven into applications and the data and application stacks they're coming together to support the acceleration of physical into digital. It's happening right before our eyes in every industry. We're also seeing the evolution of cloud. It started with the SaaS-ification of the enterprise where organizations realized that they didn't have to run their own software on-prem and it made sense to move to SaaS for CRM or HR, certainly email and collaboration and certain parts of ERP and early IS was really about getting out of the data center infrastructure management business called that cloud 1.0, and then 2.0 was really about changing the operating model. And now we're seeing that operating model spill into on-prem workloads finally. We're talking about here about initiatives like HPE's Green Lake, which we heard a lot about last week at Discover and Dell's Apex, which we heard about in May, in Las Vegas. John Furrier had a really interesting observation that basically this is HPE's and Dell's version of outposts. And I found that interesting because outpost was kind of a wake up call in 2018 and a shot across the bow at the legacy enterprise infrastructure players. And they initially responded with these flexible financial schemes, but finally we're seeing real platforms emerge. Again, we saw this at Discover and at Dell Tech World, early implementations of the cloud operating model on-prem. I mean, honestly, you're seeing things like consoles and billing, similar to AWS circa 2014, but players like Dell and HPE they have a distinct advantage with respect to their customer bases, their service organizations, their very large portfolios, especially in the case of Dell and the fact that they have more mature stacks and knowhow to run mission critical enterprise applications on-prem. So John's comment was quite interesting that these firms are basically building their own version of outposts. Outposts obviously came into their wheelhouse and now they've finally responded. And this is setting up cloud 3.0 or Supercloud, as we like to call it, an abstraction layer, that sits above the clouds that serves as a unifying experience across a continuum of on-prem across clouds, whether it's AWS, Azure, or Google. And out to both the near and far edge, near edge being a Lowes or a Home Depot, but far edge could be space. And that edge again is fragmented. You've got the examples like the retail stores at the near edge. Outer space maybe is the far edge and IOT devices is perhaps the tiny edge. No one really knows how the tiny edge is going to play out but it's pretty clear that it's not going to comprise traditional X86 systems with a cool name tossed out to the edge. Rather, it's likely going to require a new low cost, low power, high performance architecture, most likely RM based that will enable things like realtime AI inferencing at that edge. Now we've talked about this a lot on Breaking Analysis, so I'm not going to double click on it. But suffice to say that it's very possible that new innovations are going to emerge from the tiny edge that could really disrupt the enterprise in terms of price performance. Okay, two other quick observations. One is that data protection is becoming a much closer cohort to the security stack where data immutability and air gaps and fast recovery are increasingly becoming a fundamental component of the security strategy to combat ransomware and recover from other potential hacks or disasters. And I got to say from our observation, Veeam is leading the pack here. It's now claiming the number one revenue spot in a statistical dead heat with the Dell's data protection business. That's according to Veeam, according to IDC. And so that space continues to be of interest. And finally, Broadcom's acquisition of Dell. It's going to have ripple effects throughout the enterprise technology business. And there of course, there are a lot of questions that remain, but the one other thing that John Furrier and I were discussing last night John looked at me and said, "Dave imagine if VMware runs better on Broadcom components and OEMs that use Broadcom run VMware better, maybe Broadcom doesn't even have to raise prices on on VMware licenses. Maybe they'll just raise prices on the OEMs and let them raise prices to the end customer." Interesting thought, I think because Broadcom is so P&L focused that it's probably not going to be the prevailing model but we'll see what happens to some of the strategic projects rather like Monterey and Capitola and Thunder. We've talked a lot about project Monterey, the others we'll see if they can make the cut. That's one of the big concerns because it's how OEMs like the ones that are building their versions of outposts are going to compete with the cloud vendors, namely AWS in the future. I want to come back to the comment on the data stack for a moment that we were talking about earlier, we talked about how the big data ecosystem that was once coalescing around hadoop dispersed. Well, the data value chain is reforming and we think it looks something like this picture, where cloud infrastructure lives at the bottom. We've said many times the cloud is expanding and evolving. And if companies like Dell and HPE can truly build a super cloud infrastructure experience then they will be in a position to capture more of the data value. If not, then it's going to go to the cloud players. And there's a live data layer that is increasingly being converged into platforms that not only simplify the movement in ELTing of data but also allow organizations to compress the time to value. Now there's a layer above that, we sometimes call it the super PaaS layer if you will, that must comprise open source tooling, partners are going to write applications and leverage platform APIs and build data products and services that can be monetized at the top of the stack. So when you observe the battle for the data future it's unlikely that any one company is going to be able to do this all on their own, which is why I often joke that the 2020s version of a sweaty Steve Bomber running around the stage, screaming, developers, developers developers, and getting the whole audience into it is now about ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem. Because when you need to fill gaps and accelerate features and provide optionality a list of capabilities on the left hand side of this chart, that's going to come from a variety of different companies and places, we're talking about catalogs and AI tools and data science capabilities, data quality, governance tools and it should be of no surprise to followers of Breaking Analysis that on the right hand side of this chart we're including the four principles of data mesh, which of course were popularized by Zhamak Dehghani. So decentralized data ownership, data as products, self-serve platform and automated or computational governance. Now whether this vision becomes a reality via a proprietary platform like Snowflake or somehow is replicated by an open source remains to be seen but history generally shows that a defacto standard for more complex problems like this is often going to emerge prior to an open source alternative. And that would be where I would place my bets. Although even that proprietary platform has to include open source optionality. But it's not a winner take all market. It's plenty of room for multiple players and ecosystem innovators, but winner will definitely take more in my opinion. Okay, let's close with some ETR data that looks at some of those major platform plays who talk a lot about digital transformation and world changing impactful missions. And they have the resources really to compete. This is an XY graphic. It's a view that we often show, it's got net score on the vertical access. That's a measure of spending momentum, and overlap or presence in the ETR survey. That red, that's the horizontal access. The red dotted line at 40% indicates that the platform is among the highest in terms of spending velocity. Which is why I always point out how impressive that makes AWS and Azure because not only are they large on the horizontal axis, the spending momentum on those two platforms rivals even that of Snowflake which continues to lead all on the vertical access. Now, while Google has momentum, given its goals and resources, it's well behind the two leaders. We've added Service Now and Salesforce, two platform names that have become the next great software companies. Joining likes of Oracle, which we show here and SAP not shown along with IBM, you can see them on this chart. We've also plotted MongoDB, which we think has real momentum as a company generally but also with Atlas, it's managed cloud database as a service specifically and Red Hat with trying to become the standard for app dev in Kubernetes environments, which is the hottest trend right now in application development and application modernization. Everybody's doing something with Kubernetes and of course, Red Hat with OpenShift wants to make that a better experience than do it yourself. The DYI brings a lot more complexity. And finally, we've got HPE and Dell both of which we've talked about pretty extensively here and VMware and Cisco. Now Cisco is executing on its portfolio strategy. It's got a lot of diverse components to its company. And it's coming at the cloud of course from a networking and security perspective. And that's their position of strength. And VMware is a staple of the enterprise. Yes, there's some uncertainty with regards to the Broadcom acquisition, but one thing is clear vSphere isn't going anywhere. It's entrenched and will continue to run lots of IT for years to come because it's the best platform on the planet. Now, of course, these are just some of the players in the mix. We expect that numerous non-traditional technology companies this is important to emerge as new cloud players. We've put a lot of emphasis on the data ecosystem because to us that's really going to be the main spring of digital, i.e., a digital company is a data company and that means an ecosystem of data partners that can advance outcomes like better healthcare, faster drug discovery, less fraud, cleaner energy, autonomous vehicles that are safer, smarter, more efficient grids and factories, better government and virtually endless litany of societal improvements that can be addressed. And these companies will be building innovations on top of cloud platforms creating their own super clouds, if you will. And they'll come from non-traditional places, industries, finance that take their data, their software, their tooling bring them to their customers and run them on various clouds. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to Alex Myerson, who is on production and does the podcast for Breaking Analysis, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they help get the word out. And Rob Hoofe is our editor and chief over at Silicon Angle who helps edit our posts. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

[Music] thecube's coverage of red hat summit 2022 thecube has been covering red hat summit for a number of years of course the last two years were virtual coverage now the red hat summit is one of the industry's most premier events and and typically red hat summits are many thousands of people i think the last one i went to was eight or nine thousand people very heavy developer conference this year red hat has taken a different approach it's a hybrid event it's kind of a vip event at the westin in boston with a lot more executives here than we would normally expect versus developers but a huge virtual audience my name is dave vellante i'm here with my co-host paul gillin paul this is a location that you and i have broadcast from many times and um of course 2019 the summer of 2019 ibm acquired red hat and um we of course we did red hat summit that year but now we're seeing a completely new red hat and a new ibm and you wouldn't know ibm owned red hat for what they've been talking about at this conference we just came out of the keynote where uh in the in the hour-long keynote ibm was not mentioned once and only appeared the logo only appeared once on the screen in fact so this is uh very much red hat being red hat not being a subsidiary at ibm and perhaps that's justified given that ibm's track record with acquisitions is that they gradually envelop the acquired company and and it becomes part of the ibm board yeah they blue wash the whole thing right it's ironic because ibm think is going on right across the street arvin krishna is here but no presence here and i think that's by design i mean it reminds me of when you know emc owned vmware you know the vmware team didn't want to publicize that they had an ecosystem of partners that they wanted to cater to and they wanted to treat everybody equally even though perhaps behind the scenes they were forced to do certain things that they might not have necessarily wanted to because they were owned by another company and i think that you know certainly ibm's done a good job of leaving the brand separate but when they talk about the con the conference calls ibm's earnings calls you certainly get a heavy dose of red hat when red hat was acquired by ibm it was just north of three billion dollars in revenue obviously ibm paid 34 billion dollars for the company actually by today's valuations probably a bargain you know despite the market sell-off in the last several months uh but now we've heard public statements from arvind kushner that that red hat is a 5 billion plus revenue company it's a little unclear what's in there of course when you listen to ibm earnings you know consulting is their big business red hat's growing at 21 but when i remember paul when red hat was acquired stu miniman and i did a session and i said this is not about cloud this is about consulting and modernizing applications and sure there's some cloud in there with openshift but from a financial standpoint ibm was able to take red hat and jam it right into its application modernization initiatives so it's hard to tell how much of that 5 billion is actually you know legacy red hat but i guess it doesn't matter anymore it's working ibm mathematics is notoriously opaque they if the business isn't going well it'll tend to be absorbed into another number in the in the earnings report that that does show some growth so we've heard uh certainly ibm talks a lot about red hat on its earnings calls it's very clear that red hat is the growth engine within ibm i'd say it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog right now where red hat really is dictating where ibm goes with its hypercloud strategy which is the foundation not only of its technology portfolio but of its consulting business and so red hat is really in the driver's seat of of hybrid cloud and that's the future for ibm and you see that very much at this conference where uh red hat is putting out its uh series of announcements today about improvements to his hybrid cloud the new release of route 9 red hat enterprise linux 9 improvements to its hybrid cloud portfolio it very much is going its own way with that and i sense that ibm is going to go along with wherever red hat chooses to go yeah i think you're absolutely right if by the way if you go to siliconangle.com paul just published a piece on red hat reds hats their roll out of their parade which of course is as you pointed out led by enterprise linux but to your point about hybrid cloud it is the linchpin of of certainly ibm strategy but many companies hybrid cloud strategies if you think about it openshift in particular it's it's the modern application development environment for kubernetes you can get kubernetes you can buy eks you can get that for free in a lot of places but you have to do dozens and dozens of things and acquire dozens of services to do what openshift does to get the reliability the recoverability the security and that's really red hat's play and they're the the thing about red hat combining with linux their linux heritage they're doing that everywhere it's going to open shift everywhere red hat everywhere whether it's on-prem in aws azure google out to the edge you heard paul cormier today saying he expects that in the next several years hardware is going to become one of the most important you know factors i agree i think we're going to enter a hardware renaissance you've seen the work that we've done on arm i think 2017 was when red hat and arm announced kind of their initial collaboration could have even been before that today we're hearing a lot about intel and nvidia and so affinity with all of these alternative processes i think they did throw in today in the keynote power and so i think i heard that that was the other ibm branding they sort of tucked that in there but the point is red hat runs everywhere so it's fundamental to building out hybrid cloud and that is fundamental to a lot of company strategies and red hat has been all over kubernetes with openshift it's i mean it's a drum beat here uh the openshift strategy is what really makes hybrid cloud possible because kubernetes is what makes it possible to shift workloads seamlessly from platform to platform you make an interesting point about hardware we have seen kind of a renaissance in hardware these last couple of years as these specific chipsets and uh and even full-scale processors have come to market we're seeing several in the ai area right now where startups are developing full-blown chipsets and and systems uh just for ai processing and nvidia of course that's that's really kind of their stock and trade these days so uh a a company that can run across all of those different platforms a platform like like rel which can run all across those different platforms is going to have a leg up on on anybody else and the implications for application development are considerable when you when you think about we talk about a lot about these alternative processes when flash replaced the spinning disk that had a huge impact on how applications are developed developers now didn't have to wait for that that disc to spin even though it's spinning very fast it's mechanical compared to electrons forget it and and the second big piece here is how memory is actually utilized the x86 you know traditional x86 you know memory everything goes through that core processor intel for years grabbed more and more function and you're seeing now that function become dispersed in fact a lot of people think we're moving from a processor-centric world to a connect centric world meaning connecting all these piece parts alternative processors memory controllers you know storage controllers io network interface cards smartnics and things like that where the communication across those resources is now where a lot of the innovation is going you see you're seeing a lot of that and now of course applications can take advantage of that especially now at the edge which is just a whole new frontier the edge certainly is part of that equation when you look at machine learning at training machine learning models the cpu actually does relatively little work most of it is happening in gpus in these parallel processes that are going on and the cpu is kind of acting as a traffic cop and you see that in the edge as well it's the same model at the edge where more of the intelligence is going to be out in discrete devices spread across the network and the cpu is going to be less of a uh you know less of a engine of intelligence at the same time though we've got cpus with we've got 100 core cpus are on the horizon and there are even 200 and 300 core cpus that we may see in the next uh in the next couple of years so cpus aren't standing still they are evolving to become really kind of super traffic cops for all of these other processors out in the network and on the edge so it's a very exciting time to be in hardware because so much innovation is happening really at the microprocessor level well we saw this you and i lived through the pc era and we saw a whole raft of applications come about as a result of the microprocessor the shift of the microprocessor-based economy we're going to see so we are seeing something similar with mobile and the edge you know just think about some of the numbers if you think about the traditional moore's law doubling a number of transistors every let's call it two years 18 to 24 months pat gelsinger at intel promises that intel is on that pace still but if you look at the apple m1 ultra they increased the transistor density 6x in the last 15 months okay so where is this another data point is the historical moore's law curve is 40 that's moderating to somewhere down you know down in the low 30s if you look at the apple a series i mean that thing is on average increasing performance at 110 a year when you add up into the combinatorial factors of the cpu the neural processing unit the gpu all the accelerators so we are seeing a new era the thing i i i wanted to bring up paul is you mentioned ai much of the ai work that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud and when we talk about edge we think that the future of ai is ai inferencing in real time at the edge so you may not even be persisting that data but you're going to create a lot of data you're going to be operating on that data in streams and it's going to require a whole new new architectural thinking of hardware very low cost very low power very high performance to drive all that intelligence at the edge and a lot of that data is going to stay at the edge and and that's we're going to talk about some of that today with some of the ev innovations and the vehicle innovations and the intelligence in these vehicles yeah and in talking in its edge strategy which it outlined today and the announcements that are made today red hat very much uh playing to the importance of being able to run red hat enterprise linux at the edge the idea is you do these big machine learning models centrally and then you you take the you take what results from that and you move it out to smaller processors it's the only way we can cope with it with the explosion of data that will be uh that these sensors and other devices will be generating so some of the themes we're hearing in the uh announcements today that you wrote about paul obviously rel9 is huge uh red hat enterprise linux version nine uh new capabilities a lot of edge a lot of security uh new cross portfolio capabilities for the edge security in the software supply chain that's a big conversation especially post solar winds managed ansible when you think about red hat you really i think anyway about three things rel which is such as linux it powers the internet powers everything uh you think of openshift which is application development you think about ansible which is automation so itops so that's one of the announcements ansible on azure and then a lot of hybrid cloud talk and you're gonna hear a lot of talk this week about red hat's cloud services portfolio packaging red hat as services as managed services that's you know a much more popular delivery mechanism with clients because they're trying to make it easy and this is complicated stuff and it gets more complicated the more features they add and the more the more components of the red hat portfolio are are available it's it's gonna be complex to build these hybrid clouds so like many of these so thecube started doing physical events last summer by the way and so this is this is new to a lot of people uh they're here for the first time people are really excited we've definitely noticed a trend people are excited to be back together paul cormier talked about that he talked about the new normal you can define the new normal any way you want so paul cormier gave the uh the the intro keynote bidani interviewed amex stephanie cheris interviewed accenture both those firms are coming out stephanie's coming on with the in accenture as well matt hicks talked about product innovation i loved his reference to ada lovelace that was very cool he talked about uh serena uh ramyanajan a famous mathematician who nobody knew about when he was just a kid these were ignored individuals in the 1800s for years and years and years in the case of ada lovelace for a century even he asked the question what if we had discovered them earlier and acted on them and been able to iterate on them earlier and his point tied that to open source very brilliantly i thought and um keynotes which i appreciate are much shorter much shorter intimate they did a keynote in the round this time uh which i haven't seen before there's maybe a thousand people in there so a much smaller group much more intimate setting not a lot of back and forth but uh but there is there is a feeling of a more personal feel to this event than i've seen it past red hat summits yeah and i think that's a trend that we're going to see more of where the live audience is kind of the on the ground it's going to the vip audience but still catering to the virtual audience you don't want to lose them so that's why the keynotes are a lot tighter okay paul thank you for setting up red hat summit 2022 you're watching the cube's coverage we'll be right back wall-to-wall coverage for two days right after this short break [Music] you

>>To the Seaport in Boston, Massachusetts, everybody's buzzing. The Bruins are playing tonight. They tied it up. The Celtics tied it up last night. We're excited. We don't talk about the red Sox. Red Sox are getting struggles, but you know, we have good distractions. Paul goer is here. He's the president and chief executive officer at red hat and also a Boston fan of great to see, of course, you too. >>Nice to see you guys, you know, it's been a, it's been a while. >><laugh> yeah, we saw you, you know, online and virtually for a couple of years there, but, uh, you know, we've been doing red hat summit for a long, long time. Yeah, of course we were talking earlier. It's just much more intimate, kind of a VIP event, a few more suit jackets here. You know, I got my tie on, so I don't get too much grief. I usually get grief when I wear a tie of red hat summit, but it's a different format this year. Compressed keynotes. Your keynote was great. The new normal, sometimes we call it the new abnormal <laugh>, uh, but you know, how do you feel? >>I, I, I, I feel great. First of all, you know, combination today, virtual audience in, in house audience here today. I think we're gonna see a lot of that in the future. I mean, we designed the event around that and I, I think it, I think it played pretty well. Kudos, kudos to our team. You're right. It's, it's, it's a bit more intimate even the way it was set up, but those are the conversations we like having with our customers and our partners, much more partner centric, uh, as well right now, as well. >>You know, we were talking about, you know, hybrid cloud. It was kind of, you know, it was a good marketing term. And, but now it's, it's, it's become the real thing. I've said many times the, the definition of cloud is changing. It's expanding it's no, the cloud is no longer this remote set of services, you know, somewhere up in the cloud, it's on prem connecting to a cloud across clouds, out to the edge and you need capabilities that work everywhere. And that's what red hat did. The market's just swimming toward you. >>Yeah. I mean, you look at it, you know, I was, uh, you know, if you look at it, you know, the clouds are powerful unto themselves, right? The clouds are powerful unto themselves. They're all different. Right? And that that's, I mean, hardware vendors were, were similar, but different, same thing. You need that connective tissue across, across the whole thing. I mean, as I said, in my keynote today, I remember talking to some of our CIOs and customers 10 years ago and they said, we're going 90% of our apps tomorrow to one cloud. And we knew that wasn't practical because of course the clouds are built from Linux. So we knew it was underneath the hood and, and what's happened. It's taken some time, but as they started to get into that, they started to see, well, maybe one cloud's more suited for one application than the other, these apps. You may have to keep on premise, but you know, what really exploded at the, the, the hybrid thing, the edge. Now they're putting things at the edge, the GM announcement tell you, I know you're gonna talk to Francis. Yeah, yeah. Later. I mean, that's, that's a mini data center in, in every cloud, but that's still under the purview of the CIO, you know? So, so, so that's what hybrid's all about is tying all those pieces together, cuz it got more powerful, but it also more complex. >>You mentioned being the connective tissue, but we don't hear as much talk about multi-cloud seems to me, as we used to this conference has been all about hybrid cloud. You don't really talk about multi-cloud. How important is that to the red hat strategy, being that consistent layer? >>It's probably my mistake or our mistake because multi's more prevalent and more important than just hybrid alone. I mean, hybrid hybrid started from on-premise to one part to any one particular cloud. That was the, the first thought of hybrid. But as I said, as, as, as um, some of the cloud providers became so big, um, every, every CIO I talked to, whether they know whether they know it or not most do are in a multi environment for a whole bunch of reasons, right. You know, one cloud provider might be better in a different part of the world. And another one cloud provider might have a better service than another. Some just don't like to be stuck to one it's it's really hybrid multi. We should, we should train ourselves to every time we say hybrid, say multi, because that's really, that's really what it is. It, I think that happened overnight with, with Microsoft, you know, with Microsoft they've, they've, they've really grown over the last few years, so has Amazon for that matter. But Microsoft really coming up is what really made it a, a high, a multi world. >>Microsoft's remarkable what, what they're doing. But I, I, I have a different thinking on this. I, I heard Chuck Whitten last week at, at the Dell conference he used, he said used the phrase a multicloud, uh, by default versus multi-cloud by design. And I thought that was pretty interesting because I've said that multi-cloud is largely multi-vendor, you know? And so hybrid has implications, right? We, we bring and a shesh came up with a new term today. Metacloud I use Supercloud I like Metacloud better because something's happening, Paul. It feels like there's this layer abstraction layer that the underlying complexity is hidden. Think about OpenShift. Yeah. I could buy, I could get OpenShift for free. Yeah. I mean, I could, and I could cobble together and stitch together at 13, 15 dozens of different services and replicate, but I don't, I don't want that complexity. I want you to hide that complexity. I want, I'd rather spend money on your R and D than my engineering. So something's changing. It feels like >>You buy that. I totally buy that. I mean, you know, I, I, I'm gonna try to not make this sound like a marketing thing because it's not, not fair enough. Right. I mean, I'm engineer at heart, you know that, so, >>Okay. >>I really look to what we're trying to do is we're building a hybrid multi cloud. I mean that we, I look at us as a cloud provider spanning the hybrid multi all the way out to the edge world, but we don't have the data centers in the back. Like the cloud providers do in and by that is you're seeing our products being consumed more like cloud services because that's what our customers are demanding. Our, our products now can be bought out of the various marketplaces, et cetera. You're seeing different business models from us. So, uh, you're seeing, uh, committed spend, for example, like the cloud providers where a customer will buy so much up front and sort of just work it down. You're seeing different models on how they're consumed, consumption, based pricing. These, these are all things that came from the cloud providers and customers buying like that. >>They now want that across their entire environment. They don't wanna buy differently on premise or in one cloud and they don't wanna develop differently. They don't wanna operate differently. They don't wanna have to secure it differently. Security's the biggest thing with, with our, with our customers, because hybrid's powerful, but you no longer have the, you know, your security per perimeter, no longer the walls of your data center. You know, you're, you're responsible as a CIO. You're responsible for every app. Yeah. No matter where it's running, if that's the break in point, you're responsible for that. So that's why we've done things like, you know, we cried stack rocks. We've, we've built it into the container Kubernetes platform that spans those various footprints because you no longer can just do perimeter security because the perimeter is, is very, very, very large right now >>Diffuse. One of the thing on the multi-cloud hyper skills, I, I, red hat's never been defensive about public cloud. You, I think you look at the a hundred billion dollars a year in CapEx spend that's a gift to the industry. Not only the entire it industry, but, but the financial services companies and healthcare companies, they can build their own hybrid clouds. Metacloud super clouds taking advantage of that, but they still need that connective tissue. And that's where >>We products come in. We welcome our customers to go to, to the public cloud. Um, uh, look, it's it's. I said a long time ago, we said a long time it was gonna be a hybrid. Well, I should have said multi anybody said hybrid, then it's gonna be a hybrid world. It is. And it doesn't matter if it's a 20, 80, 80, 20, 40, 60, 60, 40. It's not gonna be a hundred percent anywhere. Yeah. And, and so in that, in that definition, it's a hybrid multi world. >>I wanna change the tune a little bit because I've been covering IBM for 40 years and seen a lot of acquisitions and see how they work. And usually it follows the same path. There's a commitment to leaving the acquire company alone. And then over time that fades, the company just becomes absorbed. Same thing with red hat. It seems like they're very much committed to, to, to leaving you alone. At least they said that upon the acquisition, have they followed through on that promise? >>I have to tell you IBM has followed through on every commitment they've made, made to us. I mean, I, I owe it, I owe a lot of it to Arvin. Um, he was the architect of the deal, right. Um, we've known each other for a long time. Um, he's a great guy. Um, he, uh, he, he believes in it. It's not, he's not just doing it that way because he thinks, um, something bad will happen if he doesn't, he's doing it that way. Cuz he believes in that our ecosystem is what made us. I mean, I mean, even here it's about the partners in the ecosystem. If you look at what made REL people think what made red hat as a company was support, right. Support's really important. Small piece of the value proposition life cycle supports certainly their life cycle a 10 year life cycle just came out of a, a, a customer conference asking about the life cycle and could we extend it to 15 years? You know? Um, the ecosystem is probably the most important part of, of, of, of the, of the overall value proposition. And Arvin knows in IBM knows that, you know, we have to be neutral to be able to do everything the same for all of our ecosystem partners. Some that are IBM's competitors, even. So, >>So we were noticing this morning, I mean, aside from a brief mention of power PC and the IBM logo during, at one point, there was no mention of IBM during the keynote sessions this morning. Is that intentional? Or is that just >>No, no, it it's, it's not intentional. I mean, I think that's part of, we have our strategy to drive and we're, we're driving our, our strategy. We, we, we IBM great partner. We look at them as a partner just as we do our, our many other partners and we won't, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't do something with our products, um, for I with IBM that we wouldn't offer to our, our entire ecosystem. >>But there is a difference now, right? I don't know these numbers. Exactly. You would know though, but, but pre 2019 acquisition red hat was just, I think north of 3 billion in revenue growing at maybe 12% a year. Something like that, AR I mean, we hear on the earnings calls, 21% growth. I think he's publicly said you're north of 5 billion or now I don't know how much of that consulting gets thrown in. IBM likes to, you know, IBM math, but still it's a much bigger business. And, and I wonder if you could share with us, obviously you can't dig into the numbers, but have you hired more people? I would imagine. I mean, sure. Like what's been different from that standpoint in terms of the accelerant to your >>Business. Yeah. We've been on the same hiring cycle percentage wise as, as we, we always were. I mean, I think the best way to characterize the relationship and where they've helped is, um, Arvin, Arvin will say, IBM can be opinionated on red hat, but not the other way around <laugh>. So, so what that, what that means is they had a lot of, they had, they had a container based Linux platform. Yeah, right, right. They, they had all their, they were their way of moving to the cloud was that when we came in, they actually stopped that. And they standardized on OpenShift across all of their products. We're now the vehicle that brings the blue software products to the hybrid cloud. We are that vehicle that does it. So I think that's, that's how, that's how they, they look about it. I mean, I know, I mean in IBM consulting, I know, I know they have a great relationship with Microsoft of course. >>Right. And so, so that's, that's how to really look at it. They they're opinionated on us where we not the other way around, but that, but they're a great partner. And even if we're at two separate companies, we'd do be doing all the same things we're doing with them. Now, what they do do for us can do for us is they open a lot of doors in many cases. I mean, IBM's been around for over a hundred years. So in many cases, they're in, in, in the C-suite, we, we may be in the C suite, but we may be one layer down, one, two layers down or something. They, they can, they help us get access. And I think that's been a, a part of the growth as well as is them talking into their, into, into their >>Constituents. Their consulting's one of the FA if not the fastest growing part of their business. So that's kind of the tip of the spear for application modernization, but enough on IBM you said something in your keynote. That was really interesting to me. You said, you, you, you didn't use the word hardware Renaissance, but that my interpretation was you're expecting the next, you know, several years to be a hardware Renaissance. We, we certainly have done relationships with arm. You mentioned Nvidia and Intel. Of course, you've had relationships with Intel for a long time. And we're seeing just the spate of new hardware developments, you know, does hardware matter? I'll ask you, >>Oh, oh, I mean the edge, as I said, you're gonna see hardware innovation out in the edge, software innovation as well. You know, the interesting part about the edge is that, you know, obviously remade red hat. What we did with REL was we did a lot of engineering work to make every hardware architecture when, when it was, when, when the world was just standalone servers, we made every hardware architecture just work out of the box. Right? And we did that in such, because with an open source development model. So embedded in our psyche, in our development processes is working upstream, bringing it downstream 10 years, support all of that kind of thing. So we lit up all that hardware. Now we go out to the edge, it's a whole new, different set of hardware innovation out at the edge. We know how to do that. >>We know how to, we know how to make hardware, innovation safe for the customer. And so we're bringing full circle and you have containers embedded in, in Linux and REL right now as well. So we're actually with the edge, bringing it all full circle back to what we've been doing for 20 plus years. Um, on, on the hardware side, even as a big part of the world, goes to containers and hybrid in, in multi-cloud. So that's why we're so excited about, about, about the edge, you know, opportunity here. That's, that's a big part of where hybrid's going. >>And when you guys talk about edge, I mean, I, I know a lot of companies will talk about edge in the context of your retail location. Okay. That's fine. That's cool. That's edge or telco that that's edge. But when you talk about, um, an in vehicle operating system, right. You know, that's to me the far edge, and that's where it gets really interesting, massive volumes, different architectures, both hardware and software. And a lot of the data may stay. Maybe it doesn't even get persisted. May maybe some comes back to the club, but that's a new >>Ballgame. Well, think about it, right? I mean, you, if you listen, I think you, right. My talk this morning, how many changes are made in the Linux kernel? Right? You're running in a car now, right? From a safety perspective. You wanna update that? I mean, look, Francis talked about it. You'll talk to Francis later as well. I mean, you know, how many, how many in, in your iPhone world Francis talked about this this morning, you know, they can, they can bring you a whole new world with software updates, the same in the car, but you have to do it in such a way that you still stay with the safety protocols. You're able to back things out, things like that. So it's open source, but getting raw upstream, open source and managing itself yourself, I just, I'm sorry. It takes a lot of experience to be able to be able to do those kinds of things. So it's secure, that's insecure. And that's what that's, what's exciting about it. You look at E the telco world look where the telco world came from in the telco world. It was a hardware stack from the hardware firmware operating system, every service, whether it was 9 1, 1 or 4, 1, 1 was its own stack. Yep. In the 4g, 3g, >>4g >>Virtualized. Now, now it's all software. Yeah. Now it's all software all the way out to the cell tower. So now, so, so now you see vendors out there, right? As an application, as a container based application, running out, running in the base of a cell tower, >>Cell tower is gonna be a little mini data >>Center. Yeah, exactly. Because we're in our time here asking quickly, because you've been at red hat a long time. You, you, you, uh, architected a lot of the reason they're successful is, is your responsibility. A lot of companies have tried to duplicate the red hat model, the, the service and support model. Nobody has succeeded. Do you think anybody ever will or will red hat continue to be a unicorn in that respect? >>No, I, I, I think, I think it will. I think open source is making it into all different parts of technology. Now I have to tell you the, the reason why we were able to do it is we stayed. We stayed true to our roots. We made a decision a long time ago that we weren't gonna put a line, say everything below the line was open and above the line was closed. Sometimes it's hard sometimes to get a differentiation with the competition, it can be hard, but we've stayed true to that. And I, to this day, I think that's the thing that's made us is never a confusion on if it's open or not. So that forces us to build our business models around that as well. But >>Do you have a differentiated strategy? Talk about that. What's your what's your differentiation >>Are, are, well, I mean, with the cloud, a differentiation is that common cloud platform across I differentiate strategy from an open source perspective is to, to sort make open source consumable. And, and it's even more important now because as Linux Linux is the base of everything, there's not enough skills out there. So even, even a container platform like open source op like OpenShift, could you build your own? Certainly. Could you keep it updated? Could you keep it updated without breaking all the applications on top? Do you have an ecosystem around it? It's all of those things. It was, it was the support, the, the, the hardening the 10 year to predictability the ecosystem. That was, that was, that is the secret. I mean, we even put the secret out as open. >>Yeah, <laugh> right. Free, like a puppy, as they say. All right, Paul, thanks so much for coming back in the cubes. Great to see you face to face. Nice to see you guys get it. All right. Keep it right there. Dave Valante for Paul Gill, you're watching the cubes coverage of red hat summit, 2022 from Boston. Be right back.

>>mhm Yes. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage of Red Hat summit 21 2021. I'm john for host of the Cubans virtual this year as we start preparing to come out of Covid a lot of great conversations here happening around technology. This is the emerging technology with Red hat segment. We've got three great guests steve watt manager, distinguished engineer at Red Hat hurl saying senior software engineer Red Hat and luke Hines, who's the senior software engineer as well. We got the engineering team steve, you're the the team leader, emerging tech within red hat. Always something to talk about. You guys have great tech chops that's well known in the industry and I'll see now part of IBM you've got a deep bench um what's your, how do you view emerging tech um how do you apply it? How do you prioritize, give us a quick overview of the emerging tech scene at Redhead? >>Yeah, sure. It's quite a conflated term. The way we define emerging technologies is that it's a technology that's typically 18 months plus out from commercialization and this can sometimes go six months either way. Another thing about it is it's typically not something on any of our product roadmaps within the portfolio. So in some sense, it's often a bit of a surprise that we have to react to. >>So no real agenda. And I mean you have some business unit kind of probably uh but you have to have first principles within red hat, but for this you're looking at kind of the moon shot, so to speak, the big game changing shifts. Quantum, you know, you got now supply chain from everything from new economics, new technology because that kind of getting it right. >>Yeah, I think we we definitely use a couple of different techniques to prioritize and filter what we're doing. And the first is something will pop up and it will be like, is it in our addressable market? So our addressable market is that we're a platform software company that builds enterprise software and so, you know, it's got to be sort of fit into that is a great example if somebody came up came to us with an idea for like a drone command center, which is a military application, it is an emerging technology, but it's something that we would pass on. >>Yeah, I mean I didn't make sense, but he also, what's interesting is that you guys have an open source D N A. So it's you have also a huge commercial impact and again, open sources of one of the 4th, 5th generation of awesomeness. So, you know, the good news is open source is well proven. But as you start getting into this more disruption, you've got the confluence of, you know, core cloud, cloud Native, industrial and IOT edge and data. All this is interesting, right. This is where the action is. How do you guys bring that open source community participation? You got more stakeholders emerging there before the break down, how that you guys manage all that complexity? >>Yeah, sure. So I think that the way I would start is that, you know, we like to act on good ideas, but I don't think good ideas come from any one place. And so we typically organize our teams around sort of horizontal technology sectors. So you've got, you know, luke who's heading up security, but I have an edge team, cloud networking team, a cloud storage team. Cloud application platforms team. So we've got these sort of different areas that we sort of attack work and opportunities, but you know, the good ideas can come from a variety of different places. So we try and leverage co creation with our customers and our partners. So as a good example of something we had to react to a few years ago, it was K Native right? So the sort of a new way of doing service um and eventing on top of kubernetes that was originated from google. Whereas if you look at Quantum right, ibms, the actual driver on quantum science and uh that originated from IBM were parole. We'll talk about exactly how we chose to respond to that. Some things are originated organically within the team. So uh luke talking about six law is a great example of that, but we do have a we sort of use the addressable market as a way to sort of focus what we're doing and then we try and land it within our different emerging technologies teams to go tackle it. Now. You asked about open source communities, which are quite interesting. Um so typically when you look at an open source project, it's it's there to tackle a particular problem or opportunity. Sometimes what you actually need commercial vendors to do is when there's a problem or opportunity that's not tackled by anyone open source project, we have to put them together to create a solution to go tackle that thing. That's also what we do. And so we sort of create this bridge between red hat and our customers and multiple different open source projects. And this is something we have to do because sometimes just that one open source project doesn't really care that much about that particular problem. They're motivated elsewhere. And so we sort of create that bridge. >>We got two great uh cohorts here and colleagues parole on the on the Quantum side and you got luke on the security side. Pro I'll start with you. Quantum is also a huge mentioned IBM great leadership there. Um Quantum on open shift. I mean come on. Just that's not coming together for me in my mind, it's not the first thing I think of. But it really that sounds compelling. Take us through, you know, um how this changes the computing landscape because heterogeneous systems is what we want and that's the world we live in. But now with distributed systems and all kinds of new computing modules out there, how does this makes sense? Take us through this? >>Um yeah john's but before I think I want to explain something which is called Quantum supremacy because it plays very important role in the road map that's been working on. So uh content computers, they are evolving and they have been around. But right now you see that they are going to be the next thing. And we define quantum supremacy as let's say you have any program that you run or any problems that you solve on a classical computer. Quantum computer would be giving you the results faster. So that is uh, that is how we define content supremacy when the same workload are doing better on content computer than they do in a classical computer. So the whole the whole drive is all the applications are all the companies, they're trying to find avenues where Quantum supremacy are going to change how they solve problems or how they run their applications. And even though quantum computers they are there. But uh, it is not as easily accessible for everyone to consume because it's it's a very new area that's being formed. So what, what we were thinking, how we can provide a mechanism that you can you don't connect this deal was you have a classical world, you have a country world and that's where a lot of thought process been. And we said okay, so with open shift we have the best of the classical components. You can take open shift, you can develop, deploy around your application in a country raised platform. What about you provide a mechanism that the world clothes that are running on open shift. They are also consuming quantum resources or they are able to run the competition and content computers take the results and integrate them in their normal classical work clothes. So that is the whole uh that was the whole inception that we have and that's what brought us here. So we took an operator based approach and what we are trying to do is establish the best practices that you can have these heterogeneous applications that can have classical components. Talking to our interacting the results are exchanging data with the quantum components. >>So I gotta ask with the rise of containers now, kubernetes at the center of the cloud native value proposition, what work clothes do you see benefiting from the quantum systems the most? Is there uh you guys have any visibility on some of those workloads? >>Uh So again, it's it's a very new, it's very it's really very early in the time and uh we talk with our customers and every customers, they are trying to identify themselves first where uh these contacts supremacy will be playing the role. What we are trying to do is when they reach their we should have a solution that they that they could uh use the existing in front that they have on open shift and use it to consume the content computers that may or may not be uh, inside their own uh, cloud. >>Well I want to come back and ask you some of the impact on the landscape. I want to get the look real quick because you know, I think security quantum break security, potentially some people have been saying, but you guys are also looking at a bunch of projects around supply chain, which is a huge issue when it comes to the landscape, whether its components on a machine in space to actually handling, you know, data on a corporate database. You guys have sig store. What's this about? >>Sure. Yes. So sick store a good way to frame six store is to think of let's encrypt and what let's encrypt did for website encryption is what we plan to do for software signing and transparency. So six Door itself is an umbrella organization that contains various different open source projects that are developed by the Six door community. Now, six door will be brought forth as a public good nonprofit service. So again, we're very much basing this on the successful model of let's Encrypt Six door will will enable developers to sign software artifacts, building materials, containers, binaries, all of these different artifacts that are part of the software supply chain. These can be signed with six door and then these signing events are recorded into a technology that we call a transparency log, which means that anybody can monitor signing events and a transparency log has this nature of being read only and immutable. It's very similar to a Blockchain allows you to have cryptographic proof auditing of our software supply chain and we've made six stores so that it's easy to adopt because traditional cryptographic signing tools are a challenge for a lot of developers to implement in their open source projects. They have to think about how to store the private keys. Do they need specialist hardware? If they were to lose a key then cleaning up afterwards the blast radius. So the key compromise can be incredibly difficult. So six doors role and purpose essentially is to make signing easy easy to adopt my projects. And then they have the protections around there being a public transparency law that could be monitored. >>See this is all about open. Being more open. Makes it more secure. Is the >>thief? Very much yes. Yes. It's that security principle of the more eyes on the code the better. >>So let me just back up, is this an open, you said it's gonna be a nonprofit? >>That's correct. Yes. Yes. So >>all of the code is developed by the community. It's all open source. anybody can look at this code. And then we plan alongside the Linux Foundation to launch a public good service. So this will make it available for anybody to use if your nonprofit free to use service. >>So luke maybe steve if you can way into on this. I mean, this goes back. If you look back at some of the early cloud days, people were really trashing cloud as there's no security. And cloud turns out it's a more security now with cloud uh, given the complexity and scale of it, does that apply the same here? Because I feel this is a similar kind of concept where it's open, but yet the more open it is, the more secure it is. And then and then might have to be a better fit for saying I. T. Security solution because right now everyone is scrambling on the I. T. Side. Um whether it's zero Trust or Endpoint Protection, everyone's kind of trying everything in sight. This is kind of changing the paradigm a little bit on software security. Could you comment on how you see this playing out in traditional enterprises? Because if this plays out like the cloud, open winds, >>so luke, why don't you take that? And then I'll follow up with another lens on it which is the operate first piece. >>Sure. Yes. So I think in a lot of ways this has to be open this technology because this way we have we have transparency. The code can be audited openly. Okay. Our operational procedures can be audit openly and the community can help to develop not only are code but our operational mechanisms so we look to use technology such as cuba netease, open ship operators and so forth. Uh Six store itself runs completely in a cloud. It is it is cloud native. Okay, so it's very much in the paradigm of cloud and yeah, essentially security, always it operates better when it's open, you know, I found that from looking at all aspects of security over the years that I've worked in this realm. >>Okay, so just just to add to that some some other context around Six Law, that's interesting, which is, you know, software secure supply chain, Sixth floor is a solution to help build more secure software secure supply chains, more secure software supply chain. And um so um there's there's a growing community around that and there's an ecosystem of sort of cloud native kubernetes centric approaches for building more secure software. I think we all caught the solar winds attack. It's sort of enterprise software industry is responding sort of as a whole to go and close out as many of those gaps as possible, reduce the attack surface. So that's one aspect about why 6th was so interesting. Another thing is how we're going about it. So we talked about um you mentioned some of the things that people like about open source, which is one is transparency, so sunlight is the best disinfectant, right? Everybody can see the code, we can kind of make it more secure. Um and then the other is agency where basically if you're waiting on a vendor to go do something, um if it's proprietary software, you you really don't have much agency to get that vendor to go do that thing. Where is the open source? If you don't, if you're tired of waiting around, you can just submit the patch. So, um what we've seen with package software is with open source, we've had all this transparency and agency, but we've lost it with software as a service, right? Where vendors or cloud service providers are taking package software and then they're making it available as a service but that operationalize ng that software that is proprietary and it doesn't get contributed back. And so what Lukes building here as long along with our partners down, Lawrence from google, very active contributor in it. Um, the, is the operational piece to actually run sixth or as a public service is part of the open source project so people can then go and take sixth or maybe run it as a smaller internal service. Maybe they discover a bug, they can fix that bug contributed back to the operational izing piece as well as the traditional package software to basically make it a much more robust and open service. So you bring that transparency and the agency back to the SAS model as well. >>Look if you don't mind before, before uh and this segment proportion of it. The importance of immune ability is huge in the world of data. Can you share more on that? Because you're seeing that as a key part of the Blockchain for instance, having this ability to have immune ability. Because you know, people worry about, you know, how things progress in this distributed world. You know, whether from a hacking standpoint or tracking changes, Mutability becomes super important and how it's going to be preserved in this uh new six doorway. >>Oh yeah, so um mutability essentially means cannot be changed. So the structure of something is set. If it is anyway tampered or changed, then it breaks the cryptographic structure that we have of our public transparency service. So this way anybody can effectively recreate the cryptographic structure that we have of this public transparency service. So this mutability provides trust that there is non repudiation of the data that you're getting. This data is data that you can trust because it's built upon a cryptographic foundation. So it has very much similar parallels to Blockchain. You can trust Blockchain because of the immutable nature of it. And there is some consensus as well. Anybody can effectively download the Blockchain and run it themselves and compute that the integrity of that system can be trusted because of this immutable nature. So that's why we made this an inherent part of Six door is so that anybody can publicly audit these events and data sets to establish that there tamper free. >>That is a huge point. I think one of the things beyond just the security aspect of being hacked and protecting assets um trust is a huge part of our society now, not just on data but everything, anything that's reputable, whether it's videos like this being deep faked or you know, or news or any information, all this ties to security again, fundamentally and amazing concepts. Um I really want to keep an eye on this great work. Um Pearl, I gotta get back to you on Quantum because again, you can't, I mean people love Quantum. It's just it feels like so sci fi and it's like almost right here, right, so close and it's happening. Um And then people get always, what does that mean for security? We go back to look and ask them well quantum, you know, crypto But before we get started I wanted, I'm curious about how that's gonna play out from the project because is it going to be more part of like a C. N. C. F. How do you bring the open source vibe to Quantum? >>Uh so that's a very good question because that was a plan, the whole work that we are going to do related to operators to enable Quantum is managed by the open source community and that project lies in the casket. So casket has their own open source community and all the modification by the way, I should first tell you what excuse did so cute skin is the dedicate that you use to develop circuits that are run on IBM or Honeywell back in. So there are certain Quantum computers back and that support uh, circuits that are created using uh Houston S ticket, which is an open source as well. So there is already a community around this which is the casket. Open source community and we have pushed the code and all the maintenance is taken care of by that community. Do answer your question about if we are going to integrate it with C and C. F. That is not in the picture right now. We are, it has a place in its own community and it is also very niche to people who are working on the Quantum. So right now you have like uh the contributors who who are from IBM as well as other uh communities that are specific specifically working on content. So right now I don't think so, we have the map to integrated the C. N. C. F. But open source is the way to go and we are on that tragic Torri >>you know, we joke here the cube that a cubit is coming around the corner can can help but we've that in you know different with a C. But um look, I want to ask you one of the things that while you're here your security guru. I wanted to ask you about Quantum because a lot of people are scared that Quantum is gonna crack all the keys on on encryption with his power and more hacking. You're just comment on that. What's your what's your reaction to >>that? Yes that's an incredibly good question. This will occur. Okay. And I think it's really about preparation more than anything now. One of the things that we there's a principle that we have within the security world when it comes to coding and designing of software and this aspect of future Cryptography being broken. As we've seen with the likes of MD five and Sha one and so forth. So we call this algorithm agility. So this means that when you write your code and you design your systems you make them conducive to being able to easily swap and pivot the algorithms that use. So the encryption algorithms that you have within your code, you do not become too fixed to those. So that if as computing gets more powerful and the current sets of algorithms are shown to have inherent security weaknesses, you can easily migrate and pivot to a stronger algorithms. So that's imperative. Lee is that when you build code, you practice this principle of algorithm agility so that when shot 256 or shot 5 12 becomes the shar one. You can swap out your systems. You can change the code in a very least disruptive way to allow you to address that floor within your within your code in your software projects. >>You know, luke. This is mind bender right there. Because you start thinking about what this means is when you think about algorithmic agility, you start thinking okay software countermeasures automation. You start thinking about these kinds of new trends where you need to have that kind of signature capability. You mentioned with this this project you're mentioning. So the ability to actually who signs off on these, this comes back down to the paradigm that you guys are talking about here. >>Yes, very much so. There's another analogy from the security world, they call it turtles all the way down, which is effectively you always have to get to the point that a human or a computer establishes that first point of trust to sign something off. And so so it is it's a it's a world that is ever increasing in complexity. So the best that you can do is to be prepared to be as open as you can to make that pivot as and when you need to. >>Pretty impressive, great insight steve. We can talk for hours on this panel, emerging tech with red hat. Just give us a quick summary of what's going on. Obviously you've got a serious brain trust going on over there. Real world impact. You talk about the future of trust, future of software, future of computing, all kind of going on real time right now. This is not so much R and D as it is the front range of tech. Give us a quick overview of >>Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. The first thing I would tell everyone is go check out next that red hat dot com, that's got all of our different projects, who to contact if you're interested in learning more about different areas that we're working on. And it also lists out the different areas that we're working on, but just as an overview. So we're working on software defined storage, cloud storage. Sage. Well, the creator of Cf is the person that leads that group. We've got a team focused on edge computing. They're doing some really cool projects around um very lightweight operating systems that and kubernetes, you know, open shift based deployments that can run on, you know, devices that you screw into the sheet rock, you know, for that's that's really interesting. Um We have a cloud networking team that's looking at over yin and just intersection of E B P F and networking and kubernetes. Um and then uh you know, we've got an application platforms team that's looking at Quantum, but also sort of how to advance kubernetes itself. So that's that's the team where you got the persistent volume framework from in kubernetes and that added block storage and object storage to kubernetes. So there's a lot of really exciting things going on. Our charter is to inform red hats long term technology strategy. We work the way my personal philosophy about how we do that is that Red hat has product engineering focuses on their product roadmap, which is by nature, you know, the 6 to 9 months. And then the longer term strategy is set by both of us. And it's just that they're not focused on it. We're focused on it and we spend a lot of time doing disambiguate nation of the future and that's kind of what we do. We love doing it. I get to work with all these really super smart people. It's a fun job. >>Well, great insights is super exciting, emerging tack within red hat. I'll see the industry. You guys are agile, your open source and now more than ever open sources, uh, product Ization of open source is happening at such an accelerated rate steve. Thanks for coming on parole. Thanks for coming on luke. Great insight all around. Thanks for sharing. Uh, the content here. Thank you. >>Our pleasure. >>Thank you. >>Okay. We were more, more redhead coverage after this. This video. Obviously, emerging tech is huge. Watch some of the game changing action here at Redhead Summit. I'm john ferrier. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

[Music] welcome back to red hat summit 2021 my name is dave vellante and you're watching the cube where we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise of course virtually in this case and i'm pleased to welcome victor carumpus who is the senior vice president of digital banking at bank mandiri coming in from jakarta welcome to the cube victor great to see you hi dave great to see you and great to be invited here thank you yeah you're very welcome i i wonder if you could just give us an overview of the bank maybe talk a little bit about your strategy your customers you know what the what the focus is of your company and what your role is there okay uh maybe i'm i'll give a short overview about bang mandir itself so bang money is a state-owned enterprise owned by the government but we also public company currently we already have a very big distribution channel in so uh you know indonesia is an island country it's very huge country so we are we are representing all over indonesia from province of aceh and i'm up to profits of papua and we have about 2600 branches all over indonesia and about uh 15 000 atms all over indonesia so bangladesh itself is focused on a lot of segment customers like indonesia from the corporate side small medium enterprise and also retail banking now uh we are we are currently focused in turning ourselves to become having to have more digital capability and currently in our uh current situations actually it is very good uh about 95 percent of our transactions is already coming from the electronic channel so it's only about five percent that coming from the branches but we know that this is still a journey uh and we are building more digital capability and features and functions on our digital channels to our customer got it um okay and so your your your digital journey kind of coincides i guess in a way with your your your container uh adoption journey uh i think that started a few years ago um and so maybe you could talk a little bit about that i i mean in thinking about modernizing your application portfolio obviously containers been around forever but they weren't packaged in a way that could actually be easily you know utilized and now you're seeing people in i.t roles like yourself really leaning in maybe you could talk about some of the technology considerations that impacted that desire to actually leverage containers i think uh first it's about the scalability because with a monolithic architecture it's kind of difficult to scale up for only specific features by doing container microservices we have options to scale up in a very fast way because one of the features is auto scaling on the container architectures uh one monitor is a very focused on the transaction banking so you might say bangladesh is supporting the economy of the country because in a in any given time in bangladesh we we're running about four thousand transactions per seconds that's a huge transactions number and have having said that uh our channel like i told you already running about 95 percent of the transactions so scalability is always important for us because especially like like now is the the in indonesia is a festive month it's a ramadan month where muslim is actually doing fasting but at the same time actually there's a lot of needs and people do a lot of transactions and on this kind of festive seasons the transition can be increased up to 40 or 50 suddenly and that's kind of things always happen in bangladesh and we must be ready and we must have a scalability on demand now containerization is enabling us to do that other thing is about flexibility because on the old days actually when we want to set up a new environment it's very difficult and takes a lot of time and that's affecting the time to market our products by doing the containerizations and putting it on a ci cd continuous integration called the development plan platform we are we call devsecops platform that kind of things becoming automatic because we set up the devsecos platform and the third one is the consistency actually so by by doing the contact investigations we can put the the apis on our back-end apis in the container itself and actually it's deliverable environment and a consistent experience to our customer because for example we promise our customer that every transaction should be finished within two seconds from their mobile banking up to our hosts and back forward to their mobile banking is only two seconds so that kind of thing is driving us to move to the current technology which we're using containerization and micro services great okay so 4 000 transactions per second you can't can't do that on erc20 ethereum for all you crypto fans out there that's that's pretty high volume uh and if i understand it correctly victor your role is really to envision this digital environment and then ultimately make it happen from a technology standpoint is that correct that's product that's got it yeah so okay so you now have a number of of product lines and teams you're using the same container platform maybe you could share with our audience some of the best practices and learnings that that you've taken away on this journey so i think first of all we can reuse a lot of components by doing this containerization platform is different when we still use the monolithic platform like the application server of java application server uh by using containerization actually uh be providing like a service banking as a service so whenever we build a new channel for example the first one we built a new service for example like a fun transfer service but when we create another channel for example a corporate banking electronic channel or we create another uh let's say wealth management channel whatever we already built before can be reusable instantly by using this technology so uh if i might say that actually there is a lot of best practices coming by using this platform and my team get a lot of benefit in terms of faster development time and also they can deliver the product and service in a high quality manner minimize the number of errors as well you know there's a lot of choices out there obviously i wonder if you could share what led you to the choice of red hat and open shift okay so first of all before we choose the platform actually we also comparing ourselves with the with the fintechs and also with the big tech in indonesia as well so we see we see that actually they already start using kubernetes and uh their platform is quite stable and even they can support about 90 to 100 million of customers without any issues at all so when we see this uh we choose a lot of we learn about a lot of platform and we finally choose opencv because we think that openshift and we we already do our research openshift is quite stable and for banks like us that have for having 4500 transaction per seconds stability is number one uh availability is also number one now uh having said that after doing our research we choose openshift and we implemented openshift in our environment because we promise our customers to provide 99.95 percent uh availability can i just i'm sorry to interrupt you victor can you just repeat that you cut out a little bit so you you said you you promised your customers to deliver and then you cut out a little bit can you just repeat what you just said there okay so we're giving a promise to our to our customer providing a 99.95 availability so this is the starting point of our channel sure in the efficiency we have efficient also to providing four nines which is 99.99 but i mean the starting point is 99.95 and because we have that the demand that requirement that's one of the reason we choose the openshift and red hat as our technology stack platform got it okay and so i have a question um what was it like in terms of just the skills and the adoption uh for your developers uh was it was it a big gap to go from where you were to you know where you are today did you have to what kind of training did you have to do did you have to do any sort of outsourcing to accelerate that maybe you could describe that how you close that skills gap so definitely in the beginning is quite challenging because although they are using modern languages like jaffa or kotlin but uh to understand the concept and to design correctly yes we we did a lot of training to them uh it takes a it takes me about three months to give them the proper training uh in terms of building the right uh microservices platform and also to building modular architecture in terms of the customer channel because this will be the fundamental when you build it correctly in the beginning and actually at the later point you will enjoy the benefit so the first three months actually is training and doing research and development and doing a lot of trial and errors but after the three months actually we already have the right technology stack have the right models and our devsecops is already working then actually after that the speed is very fast because uh it sprints uh we do agile way of working the agiles dlc it's only one month so every one month we already have new features coming in so that's what we call a huge transformation a digital transformation inside of our bank it's three months actually not bad i mean i would i would have thought on average it's going to take five or six months to get people up to speed so three months is pretty good and i'm also inferring that you weren't just paving the cow path you weren't just saying okay let's take our traditional and then you know re refactor it to digital you had to re-envision what digital looked like because the digital is different uh than the traditional uh so so that's actually pretty good uh ramp rate i wonder if you could just go ahead and comment if you could because when you say about uh revamp so actually it's not on the id side not only but also the business side we implement new way as well so actually if clearly they're implementing a new model so they're using a design thinking and also a co-creation model where now when we building a product so we're not writing the old product in a new way no we totally building it from from scratch and involving our key customer and our stakeholder when we're building this product so actually we implementing new models what we call design thinking and also uh co-creation with our customer so that's actually changing the face of the customer electronic channel a lot and and actually when we when we want to to deploy we invite our customer to test it first we call it like usability testing if they like it we continue to design if they they don't like it they give us a feedback how they would like it to be changed and and that's we appreciate our customer feedback because customers experience is everything now yeah so so the product can be accepted if the experience on that product is really making customer uh solving their problem solving the customer problem and making them enjoying uh doing transactions in our mobile banking product i think this is a really important point for people to understand so you weren't just paving the cow path i call it you're taking the old and and just trying to refactor it and make it exactly turn it into digital you had to really think about the business the business processes the dependencies the customer experience and then bring it back um what have been some of the business outcomes of this initiative and maybe you could we then after that we can get into some of the the future plans so so the outcome uh i think this journey uh since last year uh not last year actually since no october 2019 we already started the journey uh what took us by surprise is actually the pandemic uh suddenly the first three months when we have the pandemic of coffee we are being forced to close a lot of branches for temporary because we want to avoid the pandemic situations and that time actually the the demand using our digital channel is increasing a lot but because we already prepared actually we get the benefit one of the thing is uh the business benefit is relating so during the pandemic nobody can come to the branch and mostly the account opening actually happening online so uh we even got about 9000 account opening per day which is something that we are not imagining before so uh the benefit is very clear by using this this technology actually enabling us to provide digital capability for our customer and enabling us to open more accounts we see ourselves can grow even not linear but exponentially grow by using this platform uh talking about that indonesia is a is a huge country with we have about 200 250 million populations and actually there's still a lot of people is not having a bank account at all now by doing this actually we open opportunity doing financial inclusion for those people that need a banking account now they can reach us by using the digital platform as well yeah that's an awesome story and it goes back to the to the reason the real motivator for for moving to kubernetes and containers was scale uh and and you know it's you obviously started your digital journey prior to the pandemic but a lot of customers and i'm sure you as well were were forced to speed up a portion anyway of the digital component uh because of the pandemic like you said you couldn't people couldn't walk into the branches so but now you've got some more time to think about that journey you've had a lot of learnings 2020 was like a petri dish of experimentation but but in real time having to serve customers what's the future look like for the bank's technology journey okay so basically we uh we are not stopping only on the retail side yeah uh we want to redefine our customer journey also on the wholesale side and also on the small medium enterprise there is still a lot of things that need to be done uh and required by the customer actually so uh on the on the on the sme side we want to give them easier access uh for uh financing their businesses i think when we are back to the new normal uh the business need to have funding for for starting their business again so building an sme platform for them will will help a lot and will help the country as well on the retail side actually like i told you uh we are focusing on the more financial inclusion because uh i give you example right uh from the 230 million of indonesians uh populations i think by today maybe it's only about 50 million customers that already have a banking account so there is still a lot of people that need an access faster and cheaper and more efficient way for doing banking transactions so that's this also will become our focus and the last part is actually corporate what we see now a lot of the corporate require us to open uh api connectivity doing open banking with them the government actually the central bank supporting it supporting all the banks they are trying to create an api playbooks now and then they create they want to create an api standard for all the core all the use corporate also can connect it to the bank directly using api so this is also our focus because it will help the country economy when the economy costs the transaction costs getting more efficient getting more cheaper and there's a lot of transaction can be supported by our bank as well so i think i think that's the the future that we are imagining and i'm really hope that the pandemi will be finished and we come back to the to the new normal and we can support more transactions for this country yeah you're here to that i call it the new abnormal but so this is this is a great story everybody loves to talk about disruption we do as well and but people think oh it's out with out with the old in with the new and it's not like that this is a great story victor of uh of an established incumbent that is modernizing its its applications and its digital experience and of course the incumbent has the advantage of it's a real business it has customers that has a data it has experiences it and if it can modernize its infrastructure and and it's in its application portfolio it actually has an advantage because it's got way more features way more data way more customers and more resources so victor thanks so much for coming on thecube i really appreciate you sharing your story thank you dave thank you for inviting me thank you that was our pleasure and thank you for watching red hat summit 21 this is thecube you

(upbeat electronic music) >> Hello, welcome back to the Red Hat Summit, 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Ferez, theCUBE coverage. I'm in Palo Alto with the remote interviews for our virtual conference here. We've got two great guests, CUBE alumnis, Tom Anderson, VP of Ansible Automation Platform, and Robin Bergeron, who's the Senior Manager, Ansible Community, community architect and all the great things involved. Robin, great to see you. Tom, thanks for coming back on Red Hat Summit, here, virtual. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having us. >> So since last summit, what's the updates on the Ansible Community and the Automation Platform? Tom, we'll start with you. Automation Platform, what's the big updates? >> Yeah. So since last Summit a lot has happened in Ansible land, if you will. So last time, I remember talking to you about content collections. Packing distribution format for into the sports. So we put a lot of effort into bringing all the Ansible content collections really, as well as the commercial users. And we launched last year a program certified content, working with our partners, including partners to certify the content collections that they create. Co-certify them, where we work together to make sure that the developed against, and tested against a Proctor spec, so that both of us can provide them to our customer bases with the confidence that they're going to be working and performing properly, and that we at Red Hat, and our partnership, co-support those out in our customer's production parts. That was a big deal. The other thing that we announced, late last fall, was the private automation hub. And that's the idea where our customers, obviously appreciate the idea of being able to go to Ansible galaxy or to the Ansible automation opt, to go and grab these content collections, these integrations, and bring them down in their environment. They wanted a way, they wanted a methodology, or a repository, where they can curate content from different sources, and then the manager across their environment, the automation across the environment. Kind of leaning into a little bit of automation content as code, if you will. And so we launched the automation hub, the private automation hub, where that sits in our customer's infrastructure; whether that's in the cloud, or on premise, or both, and allows them to grab content from galaxy, from the Ansible automation hub, the Ansible, automation hub on call.red hat.com, as well as their internally developed content, and be able to manage and provide that across their organization, governed by a set policies. So lots of stuff that's going on. Really advanced considering the amount of content that we provide. The amount of collections that we provide. Have certified that for our customers. And have the ability to curate and manage that content across the teams. >> I want to do a drill down on some of the unification of teams, which is a big message as well, as operating at scale, cause that's a super value proposition you guys have. And I want to get into that, but Robin, I want to come back to you on the community. So much has gone on. We're now into the pandemic for almost a year and a half now. It's been a productivity boom. Developers have been working at home for a long time, so it's not a new workflow for them, but you've seen a lot more productivity. What it's changed in the community since last summit, again, virtual to virtual again, between the windows here, event windows. You guys have a lot going on. What's new in the community? Gives us an update. >> Yeah, well, I mean, if we go back to summit, you know, this time-ish, you know, last year, we were wrapping up, more or less, the, it was, you know, we used to have everything you would install Ansible. You would get all the modules. You had everything, you know. It was all all altogether, which, you know, it was great for new users, who don't want to have to figure things out. It helps them to really get up and started running quickly. And, but, you know, from a community perspective, trying to manage that level of complexity turned out to be pretty hard. So the move to collections was actually great for, you know, not just, you know, for about user perspective, but also from a community perspective. And we came out with the Ansible 2-10. That was last fall, I believe. And that was the first real release of Ansible where we had, you know, collections were fully instantiated. We, you know, they were available on galaxy, but you could also get them as part of the Ansible community distribution. Fast forward to now, you know, we just had the Ansible 3.0 release, here in February, and we're looking to Ansible 4.0 here in early May. So, you know, there's been a lot of activity. A lot has improved, honestly, as a result of the changes that we've made. It's made it a lot easier for contributors to get in with a smaller group, that's more of their size and, you know, be able to get started and identify, you know, who are their interested peers in the community. So it's been a boom for us, honestly. You know, the pandemic otherwise is, you know, I think taught all of us, you know, certainly you, John, about the amazing things that we can do virtually. So we've had a lot of our meetups pivot to being virtual meetups, and things like that. And it's been great to see how easily the community has been able to pivot around, you know, this sort of event. I hope that we don't have to just keep practicing it for forever, but in the meantime, you know, it's enabled us to continue to get things done. Thank goodness to every video platform on Earth. >> Yeah. Well, we appreciate it. We're going to come back and talk more about that in the future; the best practice, what we all learned, and stories, but I think I want to come back to you on the persona side of Ansible, because one of the things we talked about last time that seems to be gaining a lot of traction, is that multiple personas. So I want to just hold on to that. We'll come back. Tom, back to you. We're at Red Hat summit. You guys have Ansible Fest, which is your own event that you guys drilled down on this. So users watching can know this your own community, but now we're part of Red Hat, part of IBM, which IBM Thinks, also happening soon as well. Red Hat summit still is unique event. How is Ansible fitting into the big picture? Because the value proposition of unifying teams is really consistent now with Red Hat's overall arching thing; which is operating at scale, open shift, Robin just mentioned. Where's the automation platform going this year? What's the story here at Red Hat summit for the automation platform? >> Yeah, no, that's a great question . We've seen so, we got time, just a little bit of the pandemic, and how it has accelerated some existing trends that we already saw. And one of those is really around the democratization of the application to work routines. More people delivering infrastructure and applications, independent of each other. Which is great. Faster and more agile, all those other good words that apply to that. But what that does bring up is the opportunity for patient work. Replication of effort. Not reusing necessarily things that are in existence already that other teams may have. They'd be not complying with all of the policies, if you will, the configuration and clients' policies. And so it's really kind of brought Ansible out into focus even more here. Now, because of the kind of common back lane that Ansible provides; a common language and common automation backplane across these different teams, and across these different personas. The great thing about what we supply for these different personas, whether it's outpatient developers, infrastructure honors, network engineers, SecOps teams, GetOps teams. There's so many of these obstacles out there, who now all want independent access to infrastructure, and deploying infrastructure. And Ansible has the kind of leverage that each of those communities, whether it's APIs or CLIs, or event based automation, or web hooks, et cetera, et cetera, you know? Service catalogs, utilize all of those interfaces, if you will, or modalities are accessible in Ansible automations. So it's really allowed us to be this sort of connective tissue, or glue, across these different silos or manes of the organization. Timing it opens specifically, one of the things that we talked about last fall, at our Ansible Fest, was our integration between the Ansible automation platform, our advanced cluster management product, and our OpenShift platform, that allows native applications, running on OpenShift, be able to talk to a Ansible automation operator that's running on that same platform, to do things off platform for their customers are already using Ansible. So connecting their cloud native platforms with our existing systems and infrastructures. Systems of records, network systems, ticketing systems, you name it. So all of those sorts of integrations, Ansible's become the connected glue across all of these different environments. Tying traditional IT, cloud IT, cloud native, you name it. So it's really been fun, and it's been an exciting time for us inside the portfolio and out. >> That's a great point. Connective tissue is a great way to describe some of these platform benefits, cause you guys have been on this platform for really long time. And the benefits are kind of being seen in the market, certainly as people have to move faster with the agility. Robin, I want to come back to you because he brought up this idea of personas. I mean, we all know DevOps infrastructure has code; it's been our religion for over a decade or more, but now the word DevSecOps is more prevalent in all the conversations. The security's now weaved in here. How are you seeing that play out in the community? And then, Tom, if you can give some color commentary too, on the automation platform, how security fits in? So DevOps, everything's being operationalized at scale, we get that. That's one of the value propositions you have, but DevSecOps has a persona. More people want more sec. Dev is great, more ops and standardization, more developers, agile standards, and then security. DevSecOps. What's your? >> I thought it was DevNetSecOps? (man chuckling) >> Okay. I've forgot net. Put net in there. Well, networks abstracted away, you know, as we say. >> Yeah! Well, you know, from my perspective, you know, they're people in their jobs all over the places, right? Like, they, you know, the more they can feel like they're efficient, and doing great stuff at their work, like, they're happy to bring as many people into the fold as possible. Right? And you know, normally, security's always been this, you know, it's sort of like networking, right? It's always been this sort of isolated, this special group over here, that's the traditional, you know, one of the traditional IT bottlenecks that causes us to not be able to get anything done. But, you know, on a community level, we see folks who are interested in security, you know, all the time. I know we've certainly done quite a bit of work with the some folks at IBM around one of their products; which I assume Tom will get more into here in just a moment. But from, you know, community perspective, I mean, we've seen people who've been writing, you know, playbooks and roles and, you know, now collections for, you know, all of the traditional government testing, you know, is, you know, missed standards, all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, it's one of those, it's part of network effects. And it's a great place for actually automation hub. I think, you know, for folks who were on prem or, you know, any of our customers are really going to start to see lots of value. How it will be able to connect folks inside the organization, you know, organically through just the place where I'm doing my Ansible things, allows them to find each other, really. And build those, you know, take it from being silos of automation everywhere into a really sort of networked, you know, internal network of Ansible friends and Ansible power users that, you know, can work together and collaborate, you know, just the same way that we do in open source. >> Yeah. And Tom, so IT modernization requires security. What's your take on this? Because you know, you got cluster, a lot of cluster, advanced cluster management issues. You got to deal with the modern apps that are coming. IT's got to evolve. What's your take on all this? >> Yeah. Not only does IT have to evolve, but it's the integration of IT into the rest of the environment. To be able to respond. So, one of the areas that we put a lot of effort into advancement of curating and solutions around security automation. And we've talked about that in the past, the idea of connecting SecOps teams that are doing intrusion detection, or threat hunting, and then responding in an automated way to those threat protections. Right? So connect SecOps with my team; which has traditionally been siloed operations and silo teams. And now with this curated, Ansible security automation solution that we brought to market, with our partners, that connects those two teams in a seamless sort of way. And we've got a lot of work with our friends at IBM, around this area because they are digging that security, their facility, the products in their portfolio. So we've done a lot of work with them. We've done a lot of work with lots of our partners; whether it's cyber or Microsoft, or whoever. Those areas are traditionally, Ansible's done a great job on sort of compliance around configuration enforcement, right? Setting configuration. Now we moved into connecting set-mops with IT. Security automation, now of our acquisition of SecOps, along with our advanced cluster management integration with Ansible, we're starting to say, what are the things inside that DevSecOps workflow that may require integration or automation, or package automation with other parts of the environment? So bringing all of those pieces together, as we move forward, which is really exciting for us. >> Okay, I got to ask you guys the number one question that I get all the time, and I see in the marketplace, kind of a combo question, is, how do I accelerate the automation of my cloud native development, with my traditional infrastructure? Because as people put in green, if one of the cloud projects, whether it's, and then integrating with the cloud on premises with the traditional infrastructure, how do I accelerate those two environments? How do I automate, accelerate the automation? >> It's a great short for us, as what we were talking about last Ansible Fest. We are bringing together with our advanced, cluster management product, ownership platform. Ansible is just been widespread use in all of the automation of both traditional, and cloud native, infrastructures. Whether it's cloud infrastructure, on-premise storage, compute network, you name it. Customers are using Ansible, using Ansible to do all kinds of pieces of infrastructure. Being able to tie that to their new, cloud native initiatives, without having to redo all of that work that they've already done, you integrate that, this thing, infrastructure automation, with their cloud native stuff, it accelerates substantially the, what I call, the operationalization of their cloud native platforms, with their existing IT infrastructure in the existing, IT ecosystem. I believe that that's what the Ansible automation platform plays a key role in connecting those pieces together, without having to redo all that work, that's been done and invested. >> Robin, what's your take on this? This is what people are working on in the trenches. They realize cloud benefits. They've got some cloud native action, and also then they got on the traditional environment, and they've got to get them connected and automated. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the beauty of Ansible, you know, from a end user perspective is, you know, how easy it is to learn and how easy the languages to learn. And I think, you know, that portability, you know, it doesn't matter like, how much of a rocket scientist you are, you know? Everybody appreciates simplicity. Everybody appreciates being able to hand something simple to somebody else, and letting other people get done, and having it, be more or less, it's not quite English, but it's definitely, you know, Ansible's quite readable. Right? And you know, when we looked at, when we started to work on all the Ansible operators, you know, one of that, one of the main pieces there was making sure that that simplicity that we have in Ansible, is brought over directly into the operator. So, just because it's cloud native doesn't mean you suddenly have to learn, you know, a whole set of new languages. Ansible's just as portable there, as it is to any other part of the, your IT organization, infrastructure, whatever it is that you have going on. >> Well, there's a lot of action going on here at Red Hat summit, 2021. Things I wanted to bring up, in context of the show, is the success, and the importance, of you guys having Ansible collections. This has come up multiple times, as we talked about those personas, and you've got these new contributors. You've got people contributing content, as open-source continues to grow and be phenomenal. Value proposition. Touch on this concept of collections. What's the updates? Why is it important? Why should folks pay attention to it, and continue to innovate with collections? >> From a commercial perspective, or from a product perspective, collections have made it a lot easier for contributors to create, and deploy, and distribute content. As Robin's mentioned earlier, previous iterations of Ansible have all of that integration. All of those collections, all within one big group. We call the "batteries included" back in the time. Back in the day, right? That that meant that contributors deployed content with the base, Ansible distribution, they had to wait for the next version of Ansible to come out. That's when that content would get redistributed with the next version of Ansible. By de-coupling, on platform, or engine, putting that into collections, individual elements of related integrations, those can move that their own pace. So users, new customers, can get the content they need, based their contributors like and keep up with. So, customers will have to wait for the next version of the shipping products and get a new version of the new integration they really like now. So again, de-coupling those things, it allows them to move at different paces. The engine, or the platform itself, needs to be stable, performance secure. It's going to move at a certain lifecycle. The content itself, all the different content, hub, and network providers, platforms, all of those things can now move at their own pace. Each of those have their own life cycle. Allows us to get more functionality in our customers hands a lot quicker. And then launching our certified program, partners, when we support that content, certified support that content, helps meet the values that we bring to our customers with this subscription. It's that ecosystem of partners that we work with, who certified and support the stuff that we ship and support with our customers. Benefits both from the accessing the technology, as well as to the access to the value added in terms of integration, testing and support. >> Robin, what's your take on the community? I see custom automation with connect here. A lot of action going on with collections. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's been interesting, you know? Tom just mentioned the, you know, how everything, previously, all had to be released all at once. Right? And if you think about, you know, sure I have Ansible installed, but you know, how often do I have to, you know, just even as a regular, I'm not a system administrator these days, type person, like how often do I have to, you know, click that button to update, you know, my Mac or my Linux machine? Or, you know, my windows machine, or you know, the operating system on my telephone, right? Every time one of these devices that Ansible connects to, or program, or whatever it is, connects to something, those things are all operating and, you know, developing themselves at their own paces. Right? So when a new version of, you know, we'll call it Red Hat, Enterprise Linux. When a new version of Red Hat, Enterprise Linux comes out, if there are new changes, or new features that, you know, we want to be able to connect to, that's not really helpful when we're not releasing for another six months. Right? So it's really helped us, you know, from a community angle, to able to have each of these collections working in concert with, you know, for example, the Lennox subsystems that are actually making things that will turn be turned into collections, right? Like, SE Linux, or a system D, right? Like, those things move at their own pace. We can update those at our own pace in collections, and then people can update those collections without having to wait another six months, or eight months, or whatever it is, for a new version of Ansible to come out. It's really made it easier for all of those, you know, developers of content to work on their content and their, you know, Ansible relationships almost in sync. And make sure that, you know, not, "I'm going to do it over here. And then I'm going to come back over here and fix everything later." It's more of a, you know, continuous development process. >> So, the experience. So the contributor experience is better then? You'd say? >> I'm sorry? >> The contributor experience is better then? >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 100%. I mean, it's, you know, there's something to be said for, I wouldn't say it's like, instant satisfaction, but certainly the ability to have a little bit more independence, and be able to release things as you see fit, and not be gated by the entire rest of the project, is amazing for those folks. >> All right. So I'll put you on the spot, Robin. So if I'm a developer, bottom line me, what's in it for me? Why should I pay attention to collections? What's the bottom line? >> Well, you know, Ansible is a platform, and Ansible benefits from network effects. You know, the reason that we've gotten as big as we have, is sort of like the snowball rolling downhill, right? The more people that latch onto what you're doing, the more people benefit and the more, you know, additional folks want to join in. So, you know, if I was working on any other product that I would consider being able to have automated with Ansible, you know, the biggest thing that I would look at is, well, you know, what are those people also using? Are they automating it with Ansible? And I can guarantee you, 99% of the time, everything else that people are using is also being automated with Ansible. So you'd be crazy to not, you know, want to participate, and make sure that you're providing the best, Ansible experience for, you know, your application, cause for every application or, you know, device that we can connect to, there's probably 20 other competitors that also make similar applications that, you know, folks might also consider in lieu of you if you're not using, if you're not providing Ansible content for it. >> Hey, make things easier, simple to use, and you reduce the steps it takes to do things. That's a winning formula, Tom. I mean, when you make things that good, then you get the network effect. But this highlights what you mentioned earlier, about connective tissue. When you were using words like "connective tissue" it implies an organizational's, not a mechanism. It's not just software, it's people. As a people experience here in the automation platform. >> Robin: Yep. >> This seems to be the bottom line. What's your take? What's your bottom line view? I'm a developer, what's in it for me? Why should I pay attention to the automation platform? >> What Robert just said to me is, more people using. Automation platform, crossing those domains, and silos as kind of connective tissue across those teams, and its personas, means those contributors, those developers, creating automation content, getting in the hands of more people across the organization. In a more simplified way by using Ansible automation. They get access, the automation itself, those personas, they get access to the system automation faster, they can have the money quicker, local to local folks. To reinvent the wheel in terms of automation, we're trying to, (man speaking faintly) They don't want to know about the details, and what it takes to configure the network, configure the storage elements. They rely on those automation developers and contributors that review that for them. One powers of the platform. Across those teams, across those others. Okay we're going to talk about SecOps, The ITOps, in SecOps, in networkOps. And to do all of these tasks, with the same language, and same unition content, running faster, and it's monitoring core responsibilities without worrying. >> Robin, you wanted to talk about something in the community, any updates? I think navigator, you mentioned you wanted to mention a plug for that? >> Absolutely! So, you know, much like any other platform in the universe, you know, if you don't have really great tools for developing content, you're kind of, you know, dead in the water, right? Or you're leaving it to fate. So we've been working on a new project, not part of the product yet, but you know, it's sort of in a community, exploratory phrase. A release, early release often, or, you know, minimum viable product, I guess, might be the other way to describe it currently. It's called Ansible navigator. It's a Tooey, which is like a gooey, but it's got a, sort of a terminal, user interface look to it, that allows you to, you know, develop, it's a sort of interface where you can develop content, you know, all in one window. Have your, you know, documentation accessible to you. Have, you know, all of your test results available to you in one window, rather than, I'm going to do something here, And then I'm going to go over here, and now I'm not sure. So now I'm going to go over here and look at docs instead. It's all, you know, it's all in one place. Which we think will actually, but I mean, I know the folks who have seen it already been like, (woman squealing) but you know, it's definitely in early, community stages right now. It's, you know, we can give you the link. It's github.com/Ansible/Ansiblenavigator >> A tooey versus a gooey, versus a command line interface. >> Yeah! >> How do you innovate on the command line? It's a cooey, or a? >> Yeah! >> It's, you know, there are so many IDs out there and I think Tom can probably talk to some of this, you know, how that might relate to VA code or, you know, many of the other, you know, traditional developer IDs that are out there. But, you know, the goal is certainly to be able to integrate with some of those other pieces. But, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, if everybody's using the same tool and we can start to enforce higher levels, quality and standards through that tool, there's benefits for everyone. Tom, I don't know if you want to add on to that in any way? >> Yeah, it's just kind of one of our focus areas here, which is making it as easy as possible for contributors to create Ansible automation content. And so part of that is production, meaning S & K. Remember what happened to S & K for Ansible? That involved developers and contributors to use ID's, build and deploy automation content. So, I'm really focused on making that contributor life their job. >> Well, thanks for coming on Tom and Robin. Thanks for sharing the insight here at Red Hat Summit 21, virtual. So you guys continue to do a great job with the success of the platform, which has been, you know, consistently growing and having great satisfaction with developers, and now ops teams, and sec teams, and net teams. You know, unifying these teams is certainly a huge priority for enterprises because the end of the day, cloud-scale is all about operating. Which means more standards, more operations. That's what you guys are doing. So congratulations on the continued success. Thanks for sharing. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay. I'm John for here in theCUBE we are remote with CUBE virtual for Red Hat Summit, 2021. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>>Mhm Yes. Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here with Hillary Hunter, the VP and CTO and IBM fellow of IBM cloud at IBM. Hillary, Great to see you welcome back, You're no stranger to us in the cube your dentist few times. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks so much for having me back. Great to talk more today >>I believe I B M is the premier sponsor for red hat summit this year. No, I mean I think they're somewhat interested in what's happening. >>Yeah, you know, somebody is such a great event for us because it brings together clients that, you know, we work together with red head on and gives us a chance to really talk about that overall journey to cloud and everything that we offer around cloud and cloud adoption um, and around redheads capabilities as well. So we look forward to the summit every year for sure. >>You know, the new IBM red hat relationship obviously pretty tight and successful seeing the early formations and customer attraction and just kind of the momentum, I'll never forget that Red hat something was in SAN Francisco. I sat down with Arvin at that time, uh, Red hat was not part of IBM and it was interesting. He was so tied into cloud native. It was almost as if he was dry running the acquisition, which he announced just moments later after that. But you can see the balance. The Ceo at IBM really totally sees the cloud. He sees that experience. He sees the customer impact. This has been an interesting year, especially with Covid and with the combination of red hat and IBM, this cloud priority for IT leaders is more important than ever before. What's your, what's your take on this? Because clearly you guys are all in on cloud, but not what people think, what's your, what's your view on this? >>Yeah. You know, from, from the perspective of those that are kind of data oriented IBM Institute for Business Value, did lots of studies over the last year, you know, saying that over 60% of leaders feel, you know, increased urgency to get to the cloud, um they're intending to accelerate their program to the cloud, but I think, you know, just even as consumers where each very conscious that our digital behaviors have changed a lot in the last year and we see that in our enterprise client base where um everything from, you know, a bank, we work that that that had to stand up their countries equivalent of the payroll protection program in a matter of weeks, which is just kind of unheard of to do something that robust that quickly or um, you know, retail obviously dealing with major changes, manufacturing, dealing with major changes and all consumers wanting to consume things on an app basis and such, not going into brick and mortar stores and such. And so everything has changed and months, I would say have sort of timeframes of months have been the norm instead of years for um, taking applications forward and modernizing them. And so this journey to cloud has compressed, It's accelerated. And as one client I spoke with said, uh, in the midst of last year, you know, it is existential that I get to cloud with urgency and I think That's been that has been the theme of 2020 and now also 2021. And so it is, it is the core technology for moving faster and dealing with all the change that we're all experiencing. >>That's just so right on point. But I got I want to ask you because this is the key trend enterprises are now realizing that cloud native architecture is based on open source specifically is a key architectural first principle now. >>Yeah. >>What's your, what, what would you say to the folks out there who were listening to this and watching this video, Who were out in the enterprise going, hey, that's a good call. I'm glad I did it. So I don't have any cognitive dissidence or I better get there faster. >>Yeah. You know, open source is such an important part of this conversation because I always say that open source moves at the rate and pays a global innovation, which is kind of a cute phrase that I really don't mean it in anyways, cute. It really is the case that the purpose of open sources for people globally to be contributing. And there's been innovation on everything from climate change to you know, musical applications to um things that are the fundamentals of major enterprise mission critical workloads that have happened is everyone is adopting cloud and open source faster. And so I think that, you know this choice to be on open source is a choice really, you know, to move at the pace of global innovation. It's a choice too um leverage capabilities that are portable and it's a choice to have flexibility in deployment because where everyone's I. T is deployed has also changed. And the balance of sort of where people need the cloud to kind of come to life and be has also changed as everyone's going through this period of significant change. >>That's awesome. IBM like Red has been a long supporter and has a history of supporting open source projects from Lenox to kubernetes. You guys, I think put a billion dollars in Lenox way back when it first started. Really power that movement. That's going back into the history books there. So how are you guys all collaborating today to advance the open source solutions for clients? >>Yeah, we remain very heavily invested in open source communities and invested in work jointly with Red Hat. Um you know, we enabled the technology known as um uh Rackham the short name for the Red Hat advanced cluster management software, um you know, in this last year, um and so, you know, provided that capability um to to become the basis of that that product. So we continue to, you know, move major projects into open source and we continue to encourage external innovators as well to create new capabilities. And open source are called for code initiatives for developers as an example, um have had specific programs around um uh social justice and racial issues. Um we have a new call for code out encouraging open source projects around climate change and sustainable agriculture and all those kind of topics and so everything from you know, topics with developers to core product portfolio for us. Um We have a very uh very firm commitment in an ongoing sustained contribution on an open source basis. >>I think that's important. Just to call out just to kind of take a little sidebar here. Um you guys really have a strong mission driven culture at IBM want to give you props for that. Just take a minute to say, Congratulations call for code incredible initiative. You guys do a great job. So congratulations on that. Appreciate. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Um as a sponsor of Red Hat Summit this year, I am sponsoring the zone Read at um you have you have two sessions that you're hosting, Could you talk about what's going on? >>Yeah, the the two sessions, so one that I'm hosting is around um getting what we call 2.5 x value out of your cloud journey. Um and really looking at kind of how we're working with clients from the start of the journey of considering cloud through to actually deploying and managing environments and operating model on the cloud um and where we can extract greater value and then another session um that I'm doing with Roger Primo, our senior vice President for strategy at IBM We're talking about lessons and clouded option from the Fortune 500, so we're talking there about coca cola european bottling partners, about lumen technologies um and um also about wonderman Thompson, um and what they're doing with us with clouds, so kind of two sessions, kind of one talking a sort of a chalkboard style um A little bit of an informal conversation about what is value meaning cloud or what are we trying to get out of it together? Um And then a session with roger really kind of focused on enterprise use cases and real stories of cloud adoption. >>Alright so bottom line what's going to be in the sessions, why should I attend? What's the yeah >>so you know honest honestly I think that there's kind of this um there's this great hunger I would say in the industry right now to ascertain value um and in all I. T. Decision making, that's the key question right? Um not just go to the cloud because everyone's going to the cloud or not just adopt you know open source technologies because it's you know something that someone said to do, but what value are we going to get out of it? And then how do we have an intentional conversation about cloud architecture? How do we think about managing across environments in a consistent way? Um how do we think about extracting value in that journey of application, modernization, um and how do we structure and plan that in a way? Um that results in value to the business at the end of the day, because this notion of digital transformation is really what's underlying it. You want a different business outcome at the end of the day and the decisions that you take in your cloud journey picking. Um and open hybrid, multi cloud architecture leveraging technologies like IBM cloud satellite to have a consistent control plan across your environments, um leveraging particular programs that we have around security and compliance to accelerate the journey for regulated industries etcetera. Taking intentional decisions that are relevant to your industry that enable future flexibility and then enable a broad ecosystem of content, for example, through red hat marketplace, all the capabilities and content that deploy onto open shift, et cetera. Those are core foundational decisions that then unlock that value in the cloud journey and really result in a successful cloud experience and not just I kind of tried it and I did or didn't get out of it what I was expecting. So that's really what, you know, we talk about in these in these two sessions, um and walk through um in the second session than, you know, some client use cases of, of different levels and stages in that cloud journey, some really core enterprise capabilities and then Greenfield whitespace completely new capabilities and cloud can address that full spectrum. >>That's exciting not to get all nerdy for a second here, But you know, you bring up cloud architecture, hybrid cloud architecture and correct me if I'm wrong if you're going to address it because I think this is what I'm reporting and hearing in the industry against the killer problem everyone's trying to solve is you mentioned, um, data, you mentioned control playing for data, you mentioned security. These are like horizontally scalable operating model concepts. So if you think about an operating system, this is this is the architecture that becomes the cloud model hybrid model because it's not just public cloud cloud native or being born in the cloud. Like a startup. The integration of operating at scale is a distributed computing model. So you have an operating system concept with some systems engineering. Yeah, it sounds like a computer to me, right. It sounds like a mainframe. Sounds like something like that where you're thinking about not just software but operating model is, am I getting that right? Because this is like fundamental. >>Yeah, it's so fundamental. And I think it's a great analogy, right? I think it's um you know, everyone has kind of, their different description of what cloud is, what constitutes cloud and all that kind of thing, but I think it's great to think of it as a system, it's a system for computing and what we're trying to do with cloud, what we're trying to do with kubernetes is to orchestrate a bunch of, you know, computing in a consistent way, as, you know, other functions within a single server do. Um What we're trying to do with open shift is, you know, to enable um clients to consume things in a consistent way across many different environments. Again, that's the same sort of function um conceptually as, you know, an operating system or something like that is supposed to provide is to have a platform fundamentally, I think the word platform is important, right? Have a platform that's consistent across many environments and enables people to be productive in all those environments where they need to be doing their computing. >>We were talking before we came on camera about cloud history and we were kind of riffing back and forth around, oh yeah, five years ago or six years ago was all the conversations go to the cloud now, it's like serious conscience around the maturity of cloud and how to operate that scale in the cloud, which is complex, it's complex system and you have complexity around system complexity and novelty complexity, so you have kind of all these new things happening. So I want to ask you because you're an IBM fellow and you're on the cloud side at IBM with all this red hat goodness you've got going on, Can you give us a preview of the maturity model that you see the IBM season, that red hats doing so that these architectures can be consistent across the platforms, because you've got def sec ops, you've got all these new things, you've got security and data at scale, it's not that obviously it's not easy, but it has to be easier. What's what's the preview of the maturity model? >>Yeah, you know, it really is about kind of a one plus one equals three conversation because red hats approach to provide a consistent platform across different environments in terms of Lennox and Kubernetes and the open shift platform um enables that first conversation about consistency and maturity um in many cases comes from consistency, being able to have standards and consistency and deployment across different environments leads to efficiency. Um But then IBM odds on that, you know, a set of conversations also around data governance, um consistency of data, cataloguing data management across environments, machine learning and ai right bringing in A. I. For I. T. Operations, helping you be more efficient to diagnose problems in the IT environment, other things like that. And then, you know, in addition, you know, automation ultimately right when we're talking about F. R. I. T. Ops, but also automation which begins down at the open shift level, you know with use of answerable and other things like that and extends them up into automation and monitoring of the environment and the workloads and other things like that. And so it really is a set of unlocking value through increasing amounts of insight, consistency across environments, layering that up into the data layer. Um And then overall being able to do that, you know efficiently um and and in a consistent way across the different environments, you know, where cloud needs to be deployed in order to be most effective, >>You know, David Hunt and I always talk about IBM and all the years we've been covering with the Cube, I mean we've pretty much been to every IBM events since the Cube was founded and we're on our 11th year now watching the progression, you guys have so much expertise in so many different verticals, just a history and the expertise and the knowledge and the people. They're so smart. Um I have to ask you how you evolved your portfolio with the cloud now um as it's gone through, as we are in the 2021 having these mature conversations around, you know, full integration, large scale enterprise deployments, Critical Mission Mission Critical Applications, critical infrastructure, data, cybersecurity, global scale. How are you evolve your portfolio to better support your clients in this new environment? >>Yeah, there's a lot in there and you hit a lot of the keywords already. Thank you. But but I think that you know um we have oriented our portfolio is such that all of our systems support Red hat um and open shift, um our cloud, we have redhead open shift as a managed service and kubernetes is at the core of what we're doing as a cloud provider and achieving our own operational efficiencies um from the perspective of our software portfolio, our core products are delivered in the form of what we refer to as cloud packs on open shift and therefore deploy across all these different environments where open shift is supported, um products available through Red hat marketplace, you know, which facilitates the billing and purchasing an acquisition and installation of anything within the red hat ecosystem. And I think, you know, for us this is also then become also a journey about operational efficiency. We're working with many of our clients is we're kind of chatting about before about their cloud operating model, about their transformation um and ultimately in many cases about consumption of cloud as a service. Um and so um as we, you know, extend our own cloud capabilities, you know, out into other environment through distributed cloud program, what we refer to as as IBM cloud satellite, you know, that enables consistent and secure deployment of cloud um into any environment um where someone needs, you know, cloud to be operated. Um And that operating model conversation with our clients, you know, has to do with their own open shift environments that has to do with their software from IBM, it has to do their cloud services. And we're really ultimately looking to partner with clients to find efficiency in each stage of that journey and application modernization in deployment and then in getting consistency across all their environments, leveraging everything from uh the red hat, you know, ACM capabilities for cluster management up through a i for beauty shops and automation and use of a common console across services. And so it's an exciting time because we've been able to align our portfolio, get consistency and delivery of the red half capabilities across our full portfolio and then enable clients to progress to really efficient consumption of cloud. >>That's awesome. Great stuff there. I got to ask you the question that's on probably your customers minds. They say, okay, Hillary, you got me sold me on this. I get what's going on, I just gotta go faster. How do I advance my hybrid cloud model faster? What are you gonna do for me? What do you have within the red hat world and IBM world? How are you gonna make me go faster? That's in high quality way? >>Yeah. You know, we often like to start with an assessment of the application landscape because you move faster by moving strategically, right? So assessing applications and the opportunity to move most quickly into a cloud model, um, what to containerized first, what to invest in lift and shift perspective, etcetera. So we we help people look at um what is strategic to move and where the return on investment will be the greatest. We help them also with migrations, Right? So we can help jump in with additional skills and establish a cloud center of competency and other things like that. That can help them move faster as well as move faster with us. And I think ultimately choosing the right portfolio for what is defined as cloud is so important, having uh, an open based architecture and cloud deployment choice is so important so that you don't get stuck in where you made some of your initial decisions. And so I think those are kind of the three core components to how we're helping our clients move as quickly as possible and at the rate and pace that the current climate frankly demands of everyone. >>You know, I was joking with a friend the other night about databases and how generations you have an argument about what is it database, what's it used for. And then when you kind of get to that argument, all agree. Then a new database comes along and then it's for different functions. Just the growth in the internet and computing. Same with cloud, you kind of see a parallel thing where it's like debate, what is cloud? Why does he even exist? People have different definitions. That was, you know, I mean a decade or so ago. And then now we're at almost another point where it's again another read definition of, okay, what's next for cloud? It's almost like an inflection point here again. So with that I got to ask you as a fellow and IBM VP and Cto, what is the IBM cloud because if I'm going to have a discussion with IBM at the center of it, what does it mean to me? That's what people would like to know. How do you respond to that? >>Yeah. You know, I think two things I think number one to the, to the question of accelerating people's journeys to the cloud, we are very focused within the IBM cloud business um on our industry specific programs on our work with our traditional enterprise client base and regulated industries, things like what we're doing in cloud for financial services, where we're taking cloud, um and not just doing some sort of marketing but doing technology, which contextualize is cloud to tackle the difficult problems of those industries. So financial services, telco uh et cetera. And so I think that's really about next generation cloud, right? Not cloud, just for oh, I'm consuming some sauce, and so it's going to be in the cloud. Um but SAS and I SV capabilities and an organization's own capabilities delivered in a way appropriate to their industry in in a way that enables them to consume cloud faster. And I think along those lines then kind of second thing of, you know, whereas cloud headed the conversation in the industry around confidential computing, I think is increasingly important. Um It's an area that we've invested now for several generations of technology capability, confidential computing means being able to operate even in a cloud environment where there are others around um but still have complete privacy and authority over what you're doing. And that extra degree of protection is so important right now. It's such a critical conversation um with all of our clients. Obviously those in things like, you know, digital assets, custody or healthcare records or other things like that are very concerned and focused about data privacy and protection. And these technologies are obvious to them in many cases that yes, they should take that extra step and leverage confidential computing and additional data protection. But really confidential computing we're seeing growing as a topic zero trust other models like that because everyone wants to know that not only are they moving faster because they're moving to cloud, but they're doing so in a way that is without any compromise in their total security, um and their data protection on behalf of their clients. So it's exciting times. >>So it's so exciting just to think about the possibilities because trust more than ever now, we're on a global society, whether it's cyber security or personal interactions to data signing off on code, what's the mutability of it? I mean, it's a complete interplay of all the fun things of uh of the technology kind of coming together. >>Absolutely, yeah. There is so much coming together and confidential computing and realizing it has been a decade long journey for us. Right? We brought our first products actually into cloud in 2019, but its hardware, it's software, it services. It's a lot of different things coming together. Um but we've been able to bring them together, bring them together at enterprise scale able to run entire databases and large workloads and you know um pharmaceutical record system for Germany and customer records for daimler and um you know what we're doing with banks globally etcetera and so you know it's it's wonderful to see all of that work from our research division and our developers and our cloud teams kind of come together and come to fruition and and really be real and be product sizable. So it's it's very exciting times and it's it's a conversation that I think I encourage everyone to learn a little bit more about confidential computing. >>Hillary hunter. Thank you for coming on the cube. Vice President CTO and IBM fellow which is a big distinction at IBM. Congratulations and thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing your insight. Always a pleasure to have you on an expert always. Great conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure. >>Okay, so cubes coverage of red Hat Summit 21 of course, IBM think is right around the corner as well. So that's gonna be another great event as well. I'm john Feehery, a host of the cube bringing all the action. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

(upbeat music) >> And, welcome back to theCube's coverage of Red Hat Summit, 2021. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube. We've got a great segment here on how Red Hat is working with telcos and the disruption in the telco cloud. We've got a great guest Cube alumni, Darrell Jordan Smith, senior vice president of industries and global accounts at Red Hat. Darrell, great to see you. Thanks for coming back on theCube. >> Oh, it's been, it's great to be here and I'm really excited about having the opportunity to talk to you today. >> Yeah, we're not in person, in real life's coming back soon. Although I hear Mobile World Congress, might be in person this year, looking like it's good. A lot of people are going to be virtual and activating I know. A lot to talk about. This is probably one of the most important topics in the industry because when you talk about telco industry, you're really talking about the edge. You're talking about 5G, talking about industrial benefits for business, because it's not just edge for connectivity access. We're talking about innovative things from self-driving cars to business benefits. It's not just consumer, it's really bringing that together. You guys are really leading with the cloud-native platform from REL, OpenShift managed services. Everything about the cloud-native underpinnings, you guys have been successful as a company. But now in your area, telco is being disrupted. You're leading the way >> Absolutely. Give us your take on this, this is super exciting. >> Well, it's actually one of the most exciting times. I've been in the industry for 30 years. I'm probably aging myself now, but in the telecommunications industry, this for me, is the most exciting. It's where, you know, technology is actually going to visibly change, the way, that everyone interacts with the network. And with the applications that are being developed out there on, on our platform. and, you know, as you mentioned, IoT, and a number of the other AI and ML innovations, that are occurring in the marketplace. We're going to see a new wave of applications and innovation. >> What's the key delivery workload you're seeing, with 5G environment. Obviously it's not just, you know 5G in the sense of thinking about mobile phones or mobile computers as they are now. It's not just that consumer, "Hey surf the web and check your email and get an app and download and, and communicate". It's bigger than that now. Can you tell us, where you see the workloads coming in on the 5G environment? >> You, you hit the nail on the head. The, the, the, the killer application, isn't the user or the consumer and the way that we traditionally have known it. Because you might be able to download a video and that might take 20 seconds less, but you're not going to pay an awful lot more money for that. The real opportunity around 5G, is the industrial applications. Things like connected car. You know automotive driving, factory floor automation. How you actually interface digitally with your bank. How we're doing all sorts of things, more intelligently at the edge of the network, using artificial intelligence and machine learning. So all of those things are going to deliver a new experience, for everyone that interacts with the network and the telcos are at the heart of it. >> You know, I want to get into the real kind of underpinnings, of what's going on with the innovations happening. You just kind of laid out kind of the implications of the use cases and the target application workloads, but there's kind of two big things going on with the edge and 5G. One is under the hood networking, you know, what's going on with the moving the packets around the workload, throughput, bandwidth, et cetera, and all that, that goes on under the hood. And then there's the domain expertise in the data, where AI and machine learning have to kind of weave in. So let's take the first part, first. OpenShift is out there. Red Hat's got a lot of products, but you have to nail the networking requirements and cloud native with containerization, because at large scales, not just packets, it's all kinds of things going on, security, managing compute at the edge. There's a lot of things under the hood, if you will, from a networking perspective. >> Could you share what Red Hat's doing in that area? >> Yep, so, so that's a very good question, in that we've been building on our experience with OpenStack and the last time I was on theCube, I talked about, you know, people virtualizing network applications and network services. We're taking a lot of that knowledge, that we've learned from OpenStack and we're bringing that into the container based world. So we're looking at how we accelerate packets. We're looking at how we build cloud-native applications, on bare metal, in order to drive that level of performance. We're looking at actually how we do, the certification around these applications and services, because they may be sitting in different applets across the cloud. And in some instances running on multiple clouds, at the same time. So we're building on our experience from OpenStack. We're bringing all of that into OpenShift, our container based environment. With all of the tooling necessary to make that effective. >> It's interesting with all the automation going on and certainly with the edge developing nicely, the way you're describing it, it's certainly disrupting the telco cloud. You have an operator mindset a cloud-native operator thinking, kind of, I mean it's distributed computing. We know that, but it's hybrid. So it's essentially cloud operations. So there's an operator mindset here, that's just different. Could you just share quickly, before we move on to the next segment, what's different about this operating model, for the, these new kinds of operators. As, as you guys have been saying, the CIO is the new cloud operator. That's the skill set they have to be thinking. And certainly IT, to anyone else provisioning and managing infrastructure has to think like an operator, what's your view? >> Exactly. They certainly do need to think like an operator. They need to look at how they automate a lot of these functions, because they're actually deployed in many different places, all at the same time. They have to live independently of each other, that's what cloud-native actually really is. So the whole, the whole notion of five nines and vertically orientated stacks of five nines availability that's kind of going out the window. We're looking at application availability, across a hybrid cloud environment and making sure the application can live and sustain itself. So operators as part of OpenShift is one element of that, operations in terms of management and orchestration and all the tooling that we actually also provide as Red Hat, but also in conjunction with a big partner ecosystem, such as companies like Netcracker, for example, or IBM as another example. Or Ericsson bringing their automation tool sets and their orchestration tool sets, to that whole equation, to address exactly that problem. >> Yeah. You bring up the ecosystem and this is really an interesting point. I want to, just hit on that real quick, because it reminds me of the days, when we had this massive innovation wave in the nineties. During that era, the client server movement, really was about multi-vendor, right? And that, you start to see that now and where this ties into here I think, is and I want to get your reaction to this is that, you know, moving to the cloud was all about to 2015, moved to the cloud, move to the cloud, cloud-native. Now it's all about not only being agile and better performance, but you're going to have smaller footprints, with more security requirements, more net, enterprise requirements. This is now, it's more complicated. So you have to kind of make the complication go away. And now you have more people in the ecosystem, filling in these white spaces. So, you have to be performance and purpose built, if you will. I hate to use that word, but, or, or at least performing and agile, smaller footprint, greater security, enabling other people to participate. That's a requirement. Can you share your reactions to that? >> Well, that's core of what we do at Red Hat. I mean, we take open source community software, into a hardened distribution, fit for the telecommunications marketplace. So we're very adapt to working with communities and third parties. That ecosystem is really important to us. We're investing hundreds of engineers, literally hundreds of engineers, working with our ecosystem partners, to make sure that their application is services certified running on our platform. But also importantly, is certified to be running in conjunction with other cloud-native applications that sit under the same cloud. So that, that is not trivial to achieve, in any stretch of the imagination. And a lot of IT technology skills come to bear. And as you mentioned earlier a lot of networking skills, things that we've learned, and we build with a lot of these traditional vendors as we bring that to the marketplace. >> You know, I've been saying on theCube, I think five years ago, I started talking about this and it was kind of a loose formulation. I want to get your reaction, because you brought up ecosystem. Now saying, you know, you're going to see the big clouds develop obviously Amazon and Microsoft came in after and now Google and others. And then I said, there's going to be a huge wave of, of what I call secondary clouds. And you see companies, like Snowflake building on top of Amazon. And so you start to see the power law, of new cloud service providers emerging, that can either sit and work with, across multiple clouds, either one cloud or others, that's now multi-cloud and hybrid. But this rise of the new, more CSPs, more cloud service providers. This is a huge part of your area right now because some call that telco, telco cloud, edge hits that. What is Red Hat doing in this cloud service provider market specifically? How do you help them? If I'm a cloud service provider, what do I get in working with Red Hat? How do I be successful? Because it's very easy to be a cloud service provider now more than ever. What do I do? How do you help? How do you help me? >> Well, we, we, we offer a, a platform called OpenShift which is our containerized based platform, but it's not just a container. It involves huge amounts of tooling associated with operating it, developing in and around it. So the, the concept that we have, is that you can bring those applications, develop them once, on one, one single platform, and run it on premise. You can run it natively as a service in Microsoft's environment. You can actually run it natively as a service in Amazon's environment. You can run it natively in IBM's environment. You can build an application once and run it in all of them, depending on what you want to achieve and who actually provides you the best zoning, the best terms and conditions, the best, the best tooling in terms of other services, such as an AI, associated with that. So it's all about developing it once, certifying it once, but deploying it in many, many different locations, leveraging the largest possible developer ecosystem, to drive innovation through applications on that common platform. >> So the assumption there, is that's going to drive down costs. Can you tell me about why the benefits, the economics are there? Talk about the economics. >> Well, Yeah, so, so, A, it does drive down costs and that's an important aspect but more importantly, it drives up agility, so time to market advantage is actually attainable for you. So many of the telcos when they deploy a network service, traditionally it would take them literally, maybe a year to roll it all out. They have to do it in days, they have to do updates in real time, in day two operations, in literally minutes. So we were building the fabric necessary, in order to enable those applications and services to occur. And as you move into the edge of the network and you look at things like private 5G networks, service providers or telcos, in this instance, will be able to deliver services all the way out to the edge, into that private 5G environment and operate that, in conjunction with those enterprise clients. >> So OpenShift allows me if I get this right, from the CSP to run, have a horizontally scalable organization. Okay. And from a unification platform standpoint. Okay. Whether it's 5G and other functions, is that correct? >> Darrell: That's correct. >> Okay. So you've got that. Now I want to come in and bring in the top of the stack with the other element that's been been a big conversation here at Red Hat Summit and in the industry. That is AI and the use of data. One of the things that's emerging is the ability to have both the horizontal scale, as well as the specialism of the data and have that domain expertise. You're in the industries for Red Hat. This is important because you're going to have, one industry is going to have different jargon, different language, different data, different KPIs. So you got to have that domain expertise, to enable the ability, to, to write the apps and also enable AI. Can you comment on how that works and what's Red Hat do in there? >> So, so, so, we, we're developing OpenShift and a number of our, other technologies, to be fit for the edge of the network, where a lot of these AI applications will reside, because you want them at the closest to the client or the, or the application itself, where it needs to reside. We're, we're creating that edge fabric, if you like. The next generation of hybrid cloud is really going to be, in my view at the edge. We're enabling a lot of the service providers to go after that, but we're also igniting by industry. You mentioned different industries. So if I look at, for example, manufacturing with MindSphere, we recently announced with Siemens, how they do at the edge of the network, factory automation, collecting telemetry, doing real-time data and analytics, looking at materials going through the factory floor, in order to get a better quality result, with lower, lower levels of imperfections, as they run through that system. It's just one industry and they have, their own private and favorite AI platforms and data sets they want to work with. With their own data scientists who understand that, that, that ecosystem inherently. You can move that to healthcare. And you can imagine, you know, how you actually interface with your healthcare professionals here in North America, but also around the world. How those applications and services and what the AI needs to do, in terms of understanding x-rays and looking at, you know common errors associated with different x-rays, so, so our practitioner can make a more specific diagnosis, faster, saving money and potentially lives as well. So different, different vertical markets in this space, have different AI and ML requirements and needs, different data sciences and different data models. And what we're seeing is an ecosystem of companies, that are starting up there in that space, you know, we have Watson as part of IBM, but you have Perceptor Labs, you have H2O and a number of other, very very important AI based companies in that ecosystem. >> Yeah. And you've got the horizontal scalability of the control plane then in the platform, if you will, that gives us cross-organizational leverage and enable that, that vertical domain expertise. >> Exactly. And you'd want to build an AI application, that might run on a factory floor for certain reasons, it's location and what they're actually physically building. You might want to run that on premise. You might actually want to put it in the IBM cloud, or in Zuora or into AWS. You develop it once to OpenShift, you can deploy it in all of those as a service, sitting natively in those environments. >> Darrell, great chat. You got a lot going on. telco cloud, there is a lot of cloud-native disruption going on. It's a challenge and an opportunity. And some people have to be on the right side of history, on this one, if they're going to get it right. We'll know, and the scoreboard will be very clear, 'cause this is a shift, it's a shift. So again, you hit all the key points that I wanted to get out, but I want to ask you two more areas that are hot here at Red Hat Summit 21, as well, again as well in the industry. I want to get your reaction and thoughts on. And they are DevSecOps and automation. Okay. Two areas everyone's talking about, DevOps, which we know is infrastructure as code, programmability, under the hood, modern application development, all good. You add the second there, security, DevSecOps, it's critical. Automation is continuing to be the benefits of cloud-native. So DevSecOps and automation, what's your take, and how's that impact the telco world and your world? >> You can't, you can't operate a network without having security in place. You're talking about very sensitive data. You're talking about applications that could be real-time critical And this is actually, even lifesaving or life threatening, if you don't get them right. So the acquisition that Red Hat recently made around StackRox, really helps us, make that next level of transition into that space. And we're looking at about how we go about securing containers, in a cloud-native environment. As you can imagine, there'll be many many thousands, tens of thousands of containers running. If one is actually misbehaving for want of a better term, that creates a security risk and a security loophole. We're shoring that up. That's important for the deployment OpenShift in the telco domain and other domains. In terms of automation, if you can't do it at scale and if you look at 5G and you look at the radios at the edge of the network and how you're going to provision those services. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of nodes, hundreds of thousands. So you have to automate a lot of those processes, otherwise you can't scale to meet the opportunity. You can't physically deploy. >> You know, Darrell this is a great conversation, you know as a student of history and Dave Vellante and I always kind of joke about that. And you've been in and around the industry for a long time. Telcos have been balancing this evolution of digital business for many, many decades. And now with cloud-native, it's finally a time where you're startin' to see, that it's just the same game, now, new infrastructure. You know, video, voice, text, data, all now happening, all transformed and going digital, all the way, all aspects of it. In your opinion, how should telcos be thinking about, as they put their plans in place for next generation? Because you know, the world is, is now cloud-native. There's a huge surface here of opportunities, different ecosystem relationships. The power dynamics are shifting. It's, it's really a time where there will be winners and there will be losers. What's your, what's your view on on how the telco industry needs to Cloudify, and how to be positioned for success? >> So, so one of the things I, I truly believe very deeply, that the telcos need to create a platform, horizontal platform that attracts developer and ecosystems to their platform, because innovation is going to sit elsewhere. Then you know, there might be a killer application that one telco might create, but in reality, most of those innovations, the most of those disruptors are going to occur from outside of that telco company. So you want to create an environment, where you're easy to engage and you've got maximum sets of tools and versatility and agility in order to attract that innovation. If you attract the innovation, you're going to ignite the business opportunity that 5G and 6G and beyond is going to actually provide you, or enable your business to drive. And you've really got to unlock that innovation. And you can only unlock it, in our view at Red Hat innovation, if you're open. You know, you follow open standards, you're using open systems and open source, is a method or a tool, that you guys, if you're a telco I would ask, you guys need to leverage and harness. >> Yeah. And there's a lot. And there's a lot of upside there if you get that right. >> Yes. >> There's plenty of upside. A lot of leverage, a lot of assets, take advantage of the whole offline, online, coming back together. We are living in a hybrid world, certainly with the pandemic. We've seen what that means. It's put a spotlight, on critical infrastructure and the critical shifts. If you had to kind of get pinned down Darrell, how would you describe that learnings from the pandemic. As folks start to come out of the pandemic, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. As we come out of this pandemic, companies want a growth strategy. Want to be positioned for success. What's your learning coming out of the pandemic? >> So from, from my perspective, which really kind of in one respect was, was very admirable, but, in another respect is actually deeply, a lot of gratitude, is the fact that the telecommunications companies, because of their carrier grade capabilities and their operational prowess, were able to keep their networks up and running and they had to move significant capacity from major cities to rural areas, because everyone was working from home. And in many different countries around the world, they did that extremely, extremely well. And their networks held up. I don't know, and maybe someone will correct me and email me, but I don't know one telco had a huge network outage, through this pandemic. And that kept us connected. It kept us working. And it also, what I also learned is, that in certain countries, particularly Latam, where they have a very large prepaid market. They were worried that the prepaid market in the pandemic would go down, because they felt that people would have less money to spend. And therefore they wouldn't top up their phones as much. The opposite effect occurred. They saw prepaid grow. And that really taught me, that, that connectivity is critical, in times of stress, that we are also, where everyone's going through. So, I think there were some key learnings there. >> Yeah, I think you're right on the money there. It's like they pulled the curtain back of all the FUD and said, you know, necessity's the mother of invention. And when you look at what happened and what had to happen, to survive in the pandemic and be functional, you're, you nailed it. The network stability, the resilience, but also the new capabilities that were needed, had to be delivered in an agile way. And I think, you know, it's pretty much a forcing function, for all the projects that are on the table, to know which ones to double down on. So, I think you pretty much nailed it. >> Thank you. Darrell Jordan Smith, senior vice president of industries and global accounts for Red Hat, theCube alumni. Thanks for that insight. Thanks for sharing. Great conversation around telcos and telco clouds and all the edge opportunities. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay. It's theCube's coverage of Red Hat Summit 21. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(ambient music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBEs' coverage of Red Hat Summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furrier. Host of theCUBE. This year, virtual again, soon to be in real life, Post COVID. As the fall comes into play, we're going to start to see life come back and the digital transformation continue to accelerate. And we've got a great guest, Stefanie Chiras, Senior Vice President and General Manager at Red Hat. CUBE alumni. Great to see you. Stephanie, Thanks for coming on. >> No, it's my pleasure, John. Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here with you and look forward to doing it in person soon. >> I can't wait. A lot of people on their vaccine, some say that by the fall vaccines, where pretty much everyone 12 and over, will be vaccinated but we're going to start to see the onboarding of real life again but never going to be the same. Digital business, at the speed of online, offline, almost redefined and re-imagine. Not the old, offline, online paradigms. You're starting to see that come together. That's the focus. That's the top story in the technology industry. That really brings together the topic that I'd like to talk to you about, which is edge computing and RHEL and Linux. This is the topic where all the action is. Obviously hybrid operating models have been pretty much agreed upon by the industry. That is the way it is. Multicloud is on the horizon but edge part of the distributed system. This is where the action is. A natural extension to the open hybrid cloud which you guys have been pioneering. Take me through your thoughts on this edge computing dynamic with RHEL. >> Yeah. So as you said, we have been on this open hybrid cloud strategy for eight years or so. Very focused on providing customers choice both in where they run, what they run, how they run their applications. And the beauty of this strategy is the strategy endures because it's able to adapt to new technologies coming in. And as you said, edge is where things are happening now. It's enabling customers to do so many new and different things. You take kind of all of the dynamics that are happening in technology with data being produced everywhere, new even architectures and compute capabilities that can bring compute right out there to the data. You get 5G networks coming in and incredible advances in telco and networking. You pull that out. Now you've created a dynamic where the technology can really make edge a viable place to now extend how open hybrid cloud can reach and deliver value. And, our goal is to bring our platform and our ecosystem to do everything from the core of your data center out to public clouds, multiple public clouds. And now bring that all the way out to the edge. >> You know, we talk about edge, you know, we talk decentralization, distributed computing. These are the paradigms that are getting re-imagined, if you will, and expanded. You guys talk about and you talk about specifically this idea of digital fast economy requires a new kind of infrastructure. Talk about this because this is, you know, some say virtual first, media first, data first, video first, I mean, developer first, everything's like a first thing, but this is...focuses on the new normal. Take us through this new economy. >> It's really about how you focus on being able to deliver digitally with decisions near the data, and to be able to adapt to that. It's thinking about how you take footprints and now your footprint out at the edge becomes a part of that. One of the things that's really exciting about edge is it does have some specific use case requirements. And we're seeing some things come back. Things like, I mean, we've talked in the past about heterogeneous computing and heterogeneous architectures and the possibilities that exist there. Now at the edge we're seeing different architecture show up, which is great to see. Being able to bring a platform that can allow the use of those different architectures out at the edge to deliver value is a great thing. In addition, we're seeing bare-metal come back out at the edge. You can really imagine spaces where out at the edge you have new architectures with bare-metal deployments and you're operating containers that are touching directly onto that bare-metal. It brings a whole new paradigm to how to deliver value but now we can bring the consistency of what Linux and RHEL and OpenShift with containers can bridge across that whole space. >> So heterogeneous computing, distributed computing, multi-vendor, if you kind of weave those keywords together you have to have a supporting operating model that allows for different services, cloud services, network services, application services, work together. This kind of puts an emphasis on a control plane, a software platform that can bring this together. This is the core, if I understand the Red Hat strategy properly, you guys are going right at this point. Is that true? >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. It is. When everything else, you can get value from everything else changing what stays the same to help keep you efficient and consistent across it? And that's where we focus on the platforms. And as open hybrid cloud changes with different optionalities, our focus is to bring that sort of single common control plane that provides consistency. So you can develop once and reuse, but make it adaptable to how you want to leverage that application as a container, as a BM, on bare-metal, out at the edge, on multiple public clouds. It's really about expanding that landscape that open hybrid cloud can touch. And you'll see in other discussions, you know, one of the places we're going into new is in the edge, manage services also become part of that paradigm. So, it really is our focus to be that common control plane, provide accessibility while still delivering consistency. And let's face it consistency down at the operating system level, that's what starts to deliver your things like security. And boy, it's a critical topic today, right? To make sure that as you expand and distribute and you've got compute running out there with data, security is top of mind. >> I have to ask you, we've been having many conversations in the open source community, Linux foundation, CNCF, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, and other other communities. And the common thread is... And I want to get your reaction to this statement, the statement is "Edge computing's foundation must be open across the board." Talk about that. What's your reaction to that? And how does that relate to Red Hat and what you guys are doing at the edge and with RHEL. >> I mean, we really believe an open source brings compatibility and standardization that allows innovation to grow. In any new technology, fragmentation causes the death of the new technology. So you...our focus is, it will have to be, I mean, we firmly believe it absolutely has to be built on an open platform that has standards so that the ecosystem, and the ecosystem around edge is complex. You have multiple hardware capabilities, multiple vendors, any edge deployment will be multi-vendor. So how do you pull all of that together in an ecosystem? It is about having that foundation be open and be able to be accessible and built upon by everyone. >> You know, you were talking earlier about the edge in 5G and we just talking about open. This is the future of computing, both consumer and enterprise, whether it's, you know, a factory or a consumer wearing a wearable device or sensors on cameras, on lights and cities and all these things are happening. I want to get your reaction to that because there's a difference between industrial IOT devices and consumer IOT devices. Both have different ramifications. You know, 5G certainly is not so much a consumer as it is also a business technology, as you get the kind of throughputs you're seeing. So, both consumer and industrial enterprise capabilities are emerging. What's your position on that? >> I mean, I think edge is one of those things that it's been hard for people to wrap their head around a bit because what we deal with edge in our own personal lives, whether that be in our connected home or our mobile phone, that's one view of what edge does in one set of value that it does. But from a separate lens edge is everything from how telco is deployed to how data is aggregated in from sensors and how decisions are made. I mean, we're seeing in spaces, whether it be in manufacturing and adding AI onto manufacturing floors, how do you have, you know, in vehicles, I mean, vehicles are becoming sort of mobile software centers now. So, there is a whole shift in edge that is different from industry 4.0 and from kind of operational transformation edge that it's driving all the way into kind of the things that we see everyday which is more the global space and how our homes are connected. And I think now we're starting to see a real maturity in how the world views edge to be able to compartmentalize what enterprise edge is able to do, how edge can change operational technologies, as well as how edge can change kind of our daily lives. >> Great vision and great insights. Definitely awesome. Thought leadership there. I totally agree. I think it's exciting you see confluence of so many awesome technologies and a bright future with the technology platforms and with society open now is defacto everything not just in tech and truth, whether it's journalism or reporting, society and security, again, trust. Open, trust, technology. I got all come in together. The confluence of all those are as going on. So, I think you've got a great read on that. So thanks for sharing. Red Hat Summit. What's new? Tell us what's new here and what's being talked about that no one's heard before and what's the existing stuff that's getting better. >> Yeah, we'd love to. So we are really doubling down on edge within our portfolio. We have, you probably saw in November, we had some announcements, both in OpenShift as well as in RHEL in order to add features and capabilities that deliver specifically for edge use cases. Things like the ability to do updates and roll back in a RHEL deployment. We are continuing to drive things into our products that cater to the needs of edge deployment. As part of that, we are engaged with a whole lot of customers today deploying their edge, and that's across industries, things from telco to energy to transportation. And so, as we look at all of those cases that we've been kind of engaged with and delivering value to customers, we are bringing forward the Red Hat edge brand. It's going to be our collection point to shine a spotlight for how the features and functions in our portfolio can come together and be used to deliver in edge deployments. It'll be our space where we can showcase use cases, where we're seeing success with customers but really to pull together 'cause it is a portfolio story and it's an ecosystem story. How do we pull that together in one spot? And in order to support that here at Summit, we are announcing some really key additions into RHEL 8.4 that really focused on the specific needs of what edge is driving. You'll see things like the ability in RHEL to create streamlined OS image generation. And we can simply manage that into container images. That container magic, right? To be able to repeatably deploy an image, repeatably deployed application out to the edge, that has become a key need in these edge deployments. So we've simplified that so operations teams can really meet the scale of their fleets and deploy it in a super consistent way. We've added capabilities. Image builder, we had brought out already, but we've added capabilities to create customized installation media. It's simplifies for bare-metal deployments. And as I mentioned out at the edge work, it's really small bare-metal deployments where you can bring that container right onto their bare-metal. Can imagine a lot of situations where that brings a lot of value. We introduced in RHEL 8.0 podman as our container engine. And we've added new automatic updates in that. So, again, getting back to security fixes. Simple to ensure that you have the latest security fixes. Application updates and we're continuing to add changes and updates into Universal Base Image. Universal base image is a collection of user space packages that are available to the community, fully redistributable. The goal of those user space packages is to enable developers to be able to create container images with those packages included and then they can redistribute them when they're run on OpenShift or they're run on RHELs. So we can really work through that user space and to that host, matching, and we can stand behind that matching, then we can support it, but it allows for a lot of freedom and flexibility with Universal Based Image to really expand where we can go and help folks kind of create, deploy and develop their applications. We're also moving into, I think, one of the things you see in edge is a real industry slant. We're starting to see edge deployments take on real industry flavors. And so we are engaging in some spots, things like, whether it be from automotive to industrial and operational technology. How do we engage in those industry verticals? How do we engage with the right partners? One of the things that's key that we're looking at, 'cause it is core to what we do, is things like functional safety. And, we're working with a company called Axeda who's a leader in this space for functional safety, for how do we bring that level of security and certification into the RHEL space when it's deployed out there at the edge? So, it's an exciting space, everything from the technology to the partnerships, to how we engage as industry verticals. But this is a... I'm really excited to have the Red Hat... >> I can tell. Super excited. You know, one of the things that's interesting is that the industry trivia as theCUBE has been around for 11 years now. We've been to all of Red Hat events and IBM events for many, many years. But I actually interviewed Arvind, who is now the CEO of IBM, who now owns Red Hat, at Red Hat Summit in San Francisco, like three years ago. And, he had a smile on his face and he just announced the acquisition shortly after 'cause I was hitting him with some cloud native questions. A lot of this stuff about kind of what's hitting today and you just laid it out. RHEL, if I get this right, and of course I'm connecting the dots here in real time, It's an operating system that hits bare-metal, open hybrid cloud, edge, public cloud and across the enterprise. It's an operating system. Okay. So, okay. We know all know that. Okay, you apply that to a cloud operating model, you have some system software. So the question, which by the way is, what's going to power the next gen cloud. I think is what Arvind wants and you guys hope. So the question for you Stephanie is, what applications do you hope to create on top of... and what do you have today that RHEL is powering because if you have great systems software like RHEL, that's enabling applications. I'm assuming that's cloud services, that's new cloud native. Take us through that part of the stack. What's your vision? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the key things that I would touch on is that it's part of the reason we build our portfolio the way we do, right? We have RHEL of course for your kind of Linux deployments that you described but RHEL CoreOS is part of OpenShift and that consistency delivers into the platform and then both of those can then serve the applications that you need to deploy. And we are really excited to be able to do things like work with the transportation industry, folks like Alstom who do really bring edge capabilities all the way out into the rails of the train systems. They, from high speed trains to metros to monorail, they have built their whole strategy on RHEL and Ansible Automation Platform. It's about the platform, just as you said that operating system, delivering the flexibility to pull the applications on top and those applications could be anything from things that require functional safety, right? Things like in vehicles, as an example, could be anything from artificial intelligence, which goes out into manufacturing. But having that stable platform underneath, whether or not using RHEL or OpenShift, that consistency, it opens up the world to how applications can be deployed on it. But I am super excited about what AI and machine learning out at the edge can do and what being able to bring really hardened security capabilities out to the edge, what that opens up for new technologies and businesses. >> That's super exciting. And I think the edge is a great exclamation point around any debate anyone might've had around what the distributed architecture is going to look like. It's pretty clear now what the landscape is from an enterprise standpoint. And given that, what should people know about the edge? What's the update? What's the modern takeaway now that we're, I mean, obviously COVID has proven that there's a lot of edge applications that kind of were under forecast or accelerated, working at home, dealing with network security, you name it. It's been kind of over-amplified, for sure. But now that COVID is kind of coming, there's light at the end of the tunnel, coming to an end, it's going to be still a hybrid world. I mean, hybrid everything, not just hybrid cloud I mean hybrid everything. So edge now can not be ignored. What should people take away from Red Hat Summit this year? >> Absolutely. I think it's the possibilities that edge can bring. And there are different stages of maturity. Telco, beautiful example of how to deploy edge. In telco, as a market continues to drive the.... kind of pioneer what is done in edge. You see a lot of embedded edge, right? Things that you deploy or your business may deploy that is... you purchase it from a company and it's more embedded as an appliance level. And then there's what the enterprise will do with edge specifically for their businesses. What I think you'll see is a catch-up across all of these spaces, that those three are complimentary, right? You've may consume some of your edge from a partner and a full solution. You may build some of your own edge as you expand your data center and distribute it. And you're made leverage. Of course you'll leverage what's being done by the telcos. So what I think you'll see is a balance in multiple types of edge being deployed and the different values that it can deliver. >> Stefanie, final question for you. And thanks for taking the time. Great conversation and interview here for Red Hat Summit. As the General Manager you're constantly talking to customers. I know that. Personally, you've told me that. Many stories off-camera. But also you have to look inside the organization, run the business, keep an eye on the product roadmap and make sure everything's pumping on all cylinders. What is the customer telling you right now? And what's the common pattern that people are talking about, things that they're looking to do, projects they're funding, and what's the most important story that we should be covering. And what's the most important story people aren't talking about? >> So I think one of the things, I'm really seeing, as you mentioned at the beginning we've been talking about open hybrid cloud for a long time. There was a period of time where hybrid cloud was happening to folks or kind of, it was a bit... some of developers were using it from here. Now, hybrid cloud is intentional. It is very intentional about how customers are strategically taking a view of what they deploy where, how they deploy it and taking a bit advantage of the optionality that hybrid can do. So that's one of the things I'm most excited about. I think the next steps that will happen is a balancing of how do they expand that out into, how do they balance a managed services addition into their hybrid cloud, how do they manage that with also having VMs and a large VM deployment on prem. To me now the biggest thing that is being looked at is how do companies make these decisions in a strategic way that is kind of holistic rather than making point decisions. And I am seeing that transition in the customers I talk to. It's not how do I deal with hybrid cloud, it's how do I make hybrid cloud work for me and really deliver value to me and how do I make those decisions as a company. And honestly that requires kind of what you talked about earlier. It requires within those customers to have the structure, the organizational structure, the communication, the transparency, the openness that you've talked about. That takes a strategy like open hybrid cloud a long way. So it's both the people and the process and the technology coming together. >> You know, Stefanie, we do so many interviews in theCUBE and you've been on so many times, you go back and look back and say, "You know, in that year, 2010, we were talking about this." Chiras, I was talking to a friend and we were just talking about 2015. That was the big conversation of moving to the cloud, you know. Startups are all there. Born in the cloud. So, you know, early generation was all about the startup cloud. They all got that. 2015 was like move to the cloud. This year, the conversation isn't about moving to the cloud is about scale and all those enterprise requirements now that are coming from the hybrid. Now that that's been decided, you starting to see that operating model connect. So it's not so much moving to the cloud, it's I've moved to the cloud and now I got to run some now enterprise grade scale operationally. What's your reaction to that? >> Absolutely. I mean, to me, the, I love the intentionality that I'm seeing now in customers, but when it comes down to it, it's about speed of deploying applications, it's about having the security and the stability in order to deploy that, to give you confidence in order to go out and scale it out. So to me, it is speed, stability and scale. Those three comes together. And how do you pull that together with whole of the choices we have today and the technologies today to deliver value and competitive differentiation. >> Open source is winning and you guys are doing a great job. Stefanie, thank you for coming on and spending so much time chatting here in theCUBE for Red Hat Summit. Thanks for your time. >> Well, my pleasure, John. Good to see you. >> Okay. Great to see you. This is theCUBEs' coverage of Red Hat Summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (ambient music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit '21 virtual conference. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are here with Kevin Martelli, Principal Software Engineer at KPMG, joining the conversation. Kevin, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thanks a lot for having me. >> So obviously Red Hat, a lot of action, cloud native, part of IBM now. A lot of talk going on around this growth around cloud. Massive new opportunities, new modern applications being shaped in, super exciting opportunities. So first, before we get into all that, tell us about your role at KPMG. >> Sure John, thanks. So my role at KPMG, I'm one of our cloud leaders at KPMG where I really help both from an internal perspective, so helping our internal enablement and digitalization, as well as, more importantly, helping to deliver solutions and applications to our clients as they go through these digital journeys. And really focusing on containerization and enabling it through the cloud. >> John: You guys have done a lot of AI work, I know which is cutting edge, it's pretty much data-driven. I mean, AI is, what everyone talks about, but underlying AI is automation, data, machine learning, really dealing with kind of new types of datasets, not just dealing with existing structures. You have a new platform called Ignite. Tell us what that is. What do you guys solve? What was the problem statement? And what's going on with it? >> Yeah, John, thanks a lot for asking. So Ignite, it's something that we developed internally initially, and it really helped to solve our AI initiatives. We called it our AI platform, but it's moreso an ecosystem. And it solves not only our own internal needs and internal use cases, but also choose to help support and deliver these solutions to the clients. One of the foundational principles of our platform is it's built on top of containerization, which we know is a hot area now, today in the marketplace really gives you the ability for scalability, flexibility, security, et cetera, but more important, what we're seeing large scale of adoptions in our clients, is using this platform to really get value out of both unstructured and structured data in a way that they're able to do this in a secured fashion and then easily get it deployed. It's a pretty scalable platform, and something that we've just recently received the patent for it. >> So what was the internal conversation to put this together? Was it the fact that there was business needs? Cloud native gave you that scale advantage? What was some of the drivers behind Ignite? 'Cause this is like, was it IoT? Was it, take us through the mindset. What were some of the first principles around building this? >> Hey John nice, it's a good question. And actually to be fair, this was probably a little bit before the time of IoT and some of these newer technologies were coming up. At this time, we were really kind of scratching on the surface of data science and advanced analytics. And what really generated the need for this is as you could imagine, working in a consultancy firm and many of our clients deal with tons of contracts and the lightboard documents for financial services, there was much rich information, these unstructured data documents and we had no way to get this information out. So really it was generated out of the need to get information out of a lot of these contractual documents that we had and pinpoint specific information. So really taking it holistically on ingestion on transformations, running NLP, algorithms, it really evolved into a whole end to end complete platform, running on top of a containerized ecosystem, such as OpenShift. >> John: Yeah, I think just not to go on a tangent here but I think one of the conversations we've been having on all these events and certainly with COVID was the highlight of all these silos. And you know the old days was about break down the silos. But now with containers and cloud scale, you can extract out data, kind of create that horizontal data plane if you will, or view observation space, some call it. This just seems to be a huge trend you guys were on it early. How has that, what's your take on that? The silos used to be kind of like an advantage if you had a monolithic application but now you have a lot of diverse distributed databases. What's your take? >> Kevin: Yeah, it's, it's good. And how we are kind of coining. It is really through the power of, some of the toying in OpenShift that really gives organizations the ability to defer risk. In the sense that allows you to run certain types of workloads on-prem in a private cloud containerized way. It allows you to burst certain other types of workloads into the different CSP provider. So you can get advantage of their scale, their capacity without maybe moving some sensitive data and then another benefit is with some of that vendor lock-in it sometimes clients are concerned about is being able to kind of easily deploy your workloads and applications from one cloud provider to another. And I think as we look at this distributed processing no one client will totally be in one cloud provider. So having the ability to move workloads quickly and fastly where they make sense, where the security and risk is aligned is something that would what makes a successful use cases deployments. >> John: Just let me ask you another question. You guys, KPMG obviously have your own big data effort going on with analytics. You've got clients that you serve and ultimately they have customers as well. So you have that Red Hat equation. What are some of the advantages that you guys see as your firm and your clients with Red Hat analytics, 'cause this becomes ultimately the number one conversation. Like, okay, what's in it for me? >> Yeah. That's a good point. I would say we're seeing a few things. Some of them are highlighted. One is, as you're well aware, we chose Red Hat's OpenShift as one of our strategic options to deploy our platform. And whenever you're deploying these platforms it's very important that you have the flexibility the agility, and the ability to scale and Red Hat underneath the hood really helps take care of a lot of that, for you in a way that not only can you do it on your own as mentioned earlier, your private cloud but also onto the public CSPs and multiple CSPs. In addition, some of the other things I think that we saw that were very beneficial, a lot of times as an application user. So application users of ignite, the developers, the data scientists, the business users, the analysts, they all need to interact with the platform. They want to worry about getting the insights about getting the efficiencies in the platform. They don't want to worry about how the infrastructure's being put together, how the workloads are being moved how the scalability is occurring, et cetera and Red Hat really takes a lot of that away from you having to worry about it. And one of the other things that's also important is, is we have a strategic relationship with Red Hat. And as we look to help to enhance and develop these capabilities and experiences as our clients are doing private cloud, hybrid cloud and multi-cloud, we're really going to be able to let them take the power of open source, into their own control and how they want to deploy it in themselves. >> Well, got you on the topic there. I got to ask you the question. What would you say to the people out there that haven't really kicked the tires on Red Hat in a while? What's the modern update? How would you describe the current situation at Red Hat for people who are going to re-look and or bring the Red Hat conversation up a notch? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I think we see this in any type of software in the industry today. There's so many choices and there's so many options out there. And how do you choose the right source for the right use case? For the right client, for the right company? And how we always like to talk with clients is that yes, there are a lot of choices in there and the orchestration for the standardization but when you're looking for something that's celebrated in the market that has the security built into it that many organizations are looking for that gives you the flexibility without having to do a lot of additional operational overhead of moving from on-prem into the cloud and the way that it can scale and kind of make the overall ecosystem operations and deployments easier, it's one of the benefits that we see have gone with a tool like Red Hat OpenShift. >> Well, Kevin, I really appreciate the comments there and on Red Hat, that's awesome. Red Hat Summit, honestly, a big event around Red Hat and future cloud and modern applications. So I got to ask you as a software engineering leader in the industry, you got to be pretty excited about artificial intelligence and machine learning as it relates to, what it can be doing for changing the software development paradigm. Obviously there's also the no code, low code, serverless. You've got cloud native, you've got containers you got all this new capability. So how does, how do you see those trends? What are the big trends around machine learning and AI as it relates to someone who's going to be building modern applications in the cloud. Because certainly there's a huge ups upside there. Some are saying that if you don't have AI that's going to be a table stakes and we'll lower the valuation of the software or the application. What's your take on all these big trends around AI? >> Yeah, I agree with that. We've actually done several studies. And what we're hearing industry leaders saying is it was quite a few things. One is, we at KPMG, COVID-19 whiplash. And really what that means is that the pace and acceleration of adoption in AI has been tremendous over the COVID 19 period of our pandemic period. And so much so that industry leaders are a little bit concerned about how fast this adoption is going. And is it going too fast? In addition, we recently published a study called Thriving In An AI world where we were able to identify that business leaders and insiders are really bullish on to your point of using AI and ML to make some poor, critical decisions. How can we make vaccines? What's the distribution process? Fraudulent analytics where financial services. However, what I will say is we're still seeing a lot, a lot of questions and challenges around AI. Its security, its ethics associated to it. How you keep managing governing your process then privacy associated to it. So there's a lot of points around those areas. I think that industries are still trying to struggle and figure out how to solve for. And one of the things that we are hearing is that what the new administration there's different think tanks and industry leaders that are feeling that the new administration, while open to a lot of these advanced techniques and technologies are going to put a little bit more rigor around and regulations around how AI can be used in the marketplace. So hopefully that would give some companies guidance around these security and privacy and ethics concerns. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to a friend the other day who's a leader at a big company that's a customer of Red Hat and a lot of other clouds as well. And we were joking about the agility speed, oh, agility and speed. Of course, yeah, you get that with here but you got a lot of fast and loose situations going here. You got to know when to put the pedal to the metal. When there's a straight narrow, we can really kind of gas it with AI and machine learning and then know where the potential curves are. See, will use that metaphor because you can go fast but with speed comes dangerous new things for breakage. Is always, and you're seeing that all the time. You're seeing that, with software because you can push new update, but still, when you talk about operational integrity and security fast and loose, isn't always the best way to go. But if you know there's a straight and narrow, you can really push it. This was what we were saying, he's like, "Hey, we know when to go straight and narrow and go fast. And then when to slow it down, pull it back." What's your take on that? What's your assessment? >> No, I agree. I think you hit some valid points there. And sometimes what we do is we take some antiquated processes and we overlay them into these newer technologies and we try to think them as being the same way and they may not always hold true. But it's not only kind of the fast and narrow and then putting things in that maybe a little bit more simplistic, but it's also there's a whole change around how you productionalized. How do you get these things into deployment? How do you monitor these over time? So some of those biases or some of those privacy concerns don't end up creeping up into the algorithm over time. I still think that will work here and from industries. There are still struggles around that. There's still struggles around. There's a lot of technologies that can do a lot of these same things. Our business processes don't always align. And then how do we really take something from an innovation from a POC into production? Is there a fast track for something that is straightened narrow and something that has a little bit more complexity? But what we're seeing today, there's a lot sort of spout at the same road, which makes bringing more complex AI algorithms into production. Challenging. >> Yeah. And there's always that big trend of day two operations. Which is, hey, you deploy it's great. And then, okay, wait a minute stop, set in a break. We need better monitoring. We need better data analytics. What's instrumented. What's not. What services are being generated and terminated. These are all big cloud native kind of themes. With that, I got to ask you from a customer standpoint, these are new first-generation problems at scale that with this new cloud native environment, the pros and cons. How do you guys talk to customers? What are some of the things you're seeing around the challenges that they face with analytics? All these analytic activity? >> Kevin: Yeah. So I think one of the challenges and we've probably heard this year in year out is around data literacy. Like really having our folks understand the data and empowering them to be successful in the organization. And to be fair I would say data literacy was a little bit more narrowly focused in an organizations who needed it. I need some analysts to use it. I needed some data scientists and engineers, but what we're starting to see now is there's larger programs across the board where it's more holistic at an organizational level. Everyone should be involved in data. Everyone should be able to do their own reporting. So really data literacy and getting data kind of into the arms of the folks is important. Some of the other ones that we've also kind of talked to about it, and they kind of go hand in hand and maybe a little bit on our prior conversation was the technologies. Technology especially in open source is exploding. And as well as commercial. So how do you choose the right technologies the right tools? You don't have too many tools in your toolbox per se but use the ones that are really differentiating and try to standardize on the ones that are more standard. Finally it's bringing those processes and that wrapping them back into the technologies. Again, a little point we hit on earlier but what we're finding is as technology is rapidly increasing, you're able to use it for your analytics. Your processes are still antiquated and legacy processes which makes it a little bit harder for you to really take advantage of what you're trying to achieve in your organization from a digital transformation. And then one final one I would add in there is around the risk that organizations have. So there's a lot of concern about reputational risk. If they're doing these types of activities that people don't understand, the data they don't understand the algorithms. Are there some impacts that can be heard? And they're figuring out how to control that and then how not to. And then I think finally the workforce is, as we know, it's getting the workforce up to speed, retooling where need be and putting their people in the right place to be successful. >> Kevin that's great insight. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. I got to ask you one final question. >> Go ahead. One more thing, you mentioned COVID whiplash means a lot of post COVID activity discussions going on. If you look at what's happened with COVID there's been an exposure of all the projects that need to be doubled down on, ones that may not be continuing. People working at home. Honestly, a change of the environment, you mentioned workforce is among others. What do you think the biggest conversation around your customer base or within KPMG right now around some of these growth strategies around post COVID? What are companies thinking around how to deploy the people, process and technology is a big part of this conversation. What is the post COVID general theme that you're seeing among large enterprises and businesses in general? >> I mean, that's a good question. So I think in general, we're seeing the acceleration of digital agendas that may have been pushed out for five years school moving closer. But one of the most interesting things I think that I've gathered out of working with the clients that we're working with is that before to get stuff into production, AI solutions even in any type of smaller production system that was taking months months, several months to get something in production. And it seemed to be once the COVID pandemic hit, organizations can accelerate that journey of the deployment of applications into production in very, very quick timeframes without hindering or impacting any types of control frameworks they have in place, but just working quicker. So I think some of the things I see as we move forward is that these digital channels are going to be push forward more quicker. The data list on POC is good our pilot's good, is long past. It's now they want to see the results in the outputs in the enterprise, in production. And I think they realize that they have the tools to do this in a period of time that is weeks versus months, and in some cases, years. >> So, would you agree then, just as a quick followup to that that obviously when we get back to real life, post COVID that the visibility and the economics and the productivity gains from this new environment is going to stay around longer and probably be permanent. What's your, do you agree with that statement? >> I hope it is. but we are creatures of habit. And sometimes you go back to back to the way that we had done things, but I'm hopeful that they were able to see to be successful in these types of environments and make these types of decisions that those processes that are evolving to take into consideration what we learned. One is terrible pandemic, and be able to apply that to the post pandemic. >> Yeah. Who would have known the word hybrid cloud actually means something more than just cloud technologies? Hybrid events, hybrid workforces, the word hybrid has been kicked around. Kevin, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE for Red Hat Summit coverage. Thanks for coming on. Great insight. >> Thank you, have a great day. >> Thanks. I'm John Farrow with theCUBE here for Red Hat Summit coverage, 2021 virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBES coverage of Red Hat summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furry, host of theCUBE. We've two great guests here, returning back CUBE alumni here to give us their perspective. Dave Linquist GM VP of engineering hybrid cloud management at Red Hat. Joe Fitzgerald, general manager VP of the management business unit Red Hat. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Congratulations, Red Hat summits, ongoing virtual. Great to see you. >> Thank you, John. >> Thanks John. >> So I'd love to get the low down. A lot going on the productivity this year. Looking back from last year, a lot's been done and we've been in the pandemic now, now circling back a full year. A lot's happened- a lot of productivity, a lot of clear visibility on, on what's working, what's not, you guys got some great news. Let's just jump right into it. What's the big announcement? >> So one of the things that we announced here at Summit, John, is an expansion of our Red Hat insights brand. Basically we announced Red Hat insights for our RHEL platform back in 2015. Over the years, we've increased the amount of data and visibility into those systems. Here at summit, we've now announced Red Hat insights for both OpenShift, and for the Red Hat Ansible platform. So it's a pretty significant increase in the visibility that we have to the platforms. >> Oh, so can you repeat that one more time? So the expansion is through which platform style specifically? >> So Red Hat insights is a way that we connect up to different platforms that Red Hat provides. Historically it was for Red Hat enterprise Linux realm. We've now expanded it to the Red Hat, OpenShift family, the platforms as well as the Red Hat Ansible automation platform as well. >> So a nice broad expansion and people want that data. What's what was the motivation behind it? Was it customer demand? Was it more access to the data? Just, was it on the roadmap? What's the motivation- where where's this going? What's what's the purpose of all this? >> Well, I don't think customers say, Hey, please, you know take more data. I think it's customers say, can you keep me more secure? Can you keep my systems more optimized? Can you help me set more things to automatic? And that requires that you get data from these systems that you can auto tune on, auto- secure, auto optimize. Right? So it's really all those benefits that we get by connecting to these systems, bringing the telemetry data that config different kinds of information, and using that on customer behalf to optimize secure to the systems. >> You know, one of the biggest trends I think now for multiple years has been observability with cloud native, more services are being turned on and off enterprises are are getting a lot of pressure to be modern in their in their application development processes. Why is data more important than ever now? Can you guys take a minute to expand on that? Because this idea of telemetry across the platform is a very interesting announcement because you're turning that data into value, but can you guys expand where's that value coming, turning into? What is the value proposition? Where are people seeing the, the, the key key value points? >> Well, a couple of points, John, as you started out is in a hybrid cloud environment with cloud native applications and a lot of application modernization and the current progressiveness of DevOps and SRE teams, you're seeing a lot of dynamics and workloads and continuous delivery and deployments that are in public environments and private environments, distributed models. And so consequently, there's a lot of change in dynamics in the environment. So to sustain these high levels of service levels to sustain the security and the compliance, the ability to gather data from all these different points, to be able to get visibility into that data. It'd be able the ability to process that with various analytics and understand what when something's gone wrong or when an update is needed or when a configuration has drifted is increasingly critical in that in a hybrid cloud environment. >> So on the telemetry piece is that in open shift as well that that's supporting that as in there has that work. >> It's it's in OpenShift, as Joe mentioned, it's in braille it's in V2 Ansible and the OpenShift space we'd have an offering advanced cluster management that understands fleets of deployments, clusters, wherever they're deployed however they're running infrastructure public private hybrid environments. And it also collects in the context of the workloads that are deployed on those on those clusters to multi-question burn. >> I want to ask you guys a question. I get this all the time on theCUBE. Hey, you know, I need more data. I have multiple systems. I need to pull that data into one kind of control plane but I'm being pushed more and more to keep scaling operations. And this becomes a huge question mark for the enterprises because they, they have to turn up more, more scale. So this is becomes a data problem. Does this solve it here? How do you guys answer that? And what was the, what would be your response to that trend? >> Well, I think the, the thirst for data, right? There's a lot of things you can do with more data. There is a point where you can't ship all the data everywhere, right? If you think about logs and metrics and all the data it's too heavyweight to move everything everywhere. Right? So part of it is, you know, selecting the kind of data that you're going to get from these systems and the purpose you're going to use it for. And in the case of Red Hat, we take data from these different systems, regardless of whether they're deployed bring it in, and then we did predictive analytics against that data. And we use that telemetry that can take that health data right to do everything from optimize for performance or security costs, things like that. But we're not moving, you know, huge quantities of data from every system to Red Hat in order to, you know, pour through it. We are very selectively moving certain kinds of data for very specific purposes. >> Dave, what's your take on that because you know you got to engineer these systems. What's the optimized path for data? Do you keep it in the silo? Do you bring it together? What's the customer's view on, on how to deal with the data? >> Yeah. It is a complex problem. No doubt. You don't want it to be pulling all the data and trying to transmit all that data back into your analytics system. So you ended up curating some data, some of it you afford on often it's done under it will be done under control of policies. So that data that is sensitive, that should stay within the environment that it's in, will stay, but curated or alerts or information that's particularly relevant say to configurations, updates, any any of that type of information will go up into the analytics, into the insights. And then in turn, the alerts will come back down in a manner that are presented to the user. So they understand what actions need to be taken place whether there's automated actions or or they have to get approvals to maybe make an update to a certain environment. >> All right, you got telemetry, data power, the the advanced cluster management ACM. What's the overlap of the visibility and automation here. Can you guys talk about that? >> Well, let's say it's a great question, John what we'd like to do is we'd like to sort of separate the different areas. There's the seeing, right. And what's going on in these environment. Right. So getting the data analyzing it and determining what needs to be done. And then the, you know the recommendation of the automation. As Dave said, in a lot of environments, there's a process of either approvals or checkpoints or, you know evaluation of the changes being made to the system. Right. So separating the data and the analysis from the what do you want to do at this and making that configurable I think is really powerful. >> Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean I think that's the number one thing is like, you know everyone always asks, what do you optimize for do you optimize for the automation or the visibility? And I think, you know, there's always a trade-off and that's always interesting question David- love to get your thoughts. If someone asks you, Hey, I'm a I'm I have a team of people. What do I optimize for? The visibility or the automation or both? Is or is there a rule of thumb or is there a playbook? What w how would you answer that question? >> Well, there's a couple of things. I first, I think the, the ability to pull the data together to get visibility across the environment is critical. And then what becomes often complex is how the different disciplines, how the different parts of the system are able to work together on common understanding of the resources common understanding the applications. That's usually where systems start falling down. And so it's too siloed. So one of the key things we have with with our systems, particularly with OpenShift and row and with ACM and Ansible is the ability to have the common back lane and the ability to have a common understanding of the resources and the applications. And then you can start integrating the data around that common, those common data models and take appropriate actions on that. So that's how you ended up getting the visibility integrated with the automation. >> When you think about this, Joe about the security aspect of it and the edge of the network which has been a big theme this year and going into next year, a lot more discussion just the industrial edge, you know, that's important. You got to take all this into account. How do you, how would you talk about folks who are thinking about embedding security and thinking about now the distributed edge specifically? >> Right. So we thought it was complicated before, right? It goes up a notch here, right? As you have, you know, more and more edge applications I think at the edge, you're going to want automated policies and automated configurations in force so that when a device connects up to a network or is, you know analyzed that there's a set of policies and some configurations and versions that need to be applied to that device, these devices, aren't always connected. There's not always high bandwidth. So you basically want a high degree of automation in that case. And to get back to your early point there are certain things you can set like policies about security or configuration. You say, I always want it to be like this and make it so and there's other things where they're more you know, complicated, right. To, to address or have regulatory requirements or oversight issues. And those things you want to tell somebody I think this should be done. Is this the right thing to do? Is it okay? Do it, but at the edge you're going to have a lot more sort of lights out automation to keep these things secure, to configure. Right. >> It's funny. I was, some of the Ansible guys are talking about, you know code for code, changing code all the time and dynamic nature of some of the emerging tech coming out of the Red Hat teams. It's pretty interesting. You guys have going on there, but you know, you can bring it down to the average enterprise and main street, you know enterprise out there, you know, they're looking at, okay I got some public loud. Now I got hybrid. I'm going a hundred percent hybrid. That's pretty much the general consensus of all the enterprises. Okay. So now you say, okay, if I understand this correctly you got insights on REL, OpenShift and Ansible platform. So I'm, am I set up for an open hybrid cloud? That's the question I want to ask you guys does that give me the foundation to allow me to start the cloud adoption with an, a true distributed open way >> I'll I'll offer to go first. I think there's a couple of things you need in order to run across hybrid clouds. And I think Red Hat from a platform point of view the fact that Red Hat platforms run across all those different environments from the public cloud to on-premise and physical vert to edge devices. Now you have consistency of those platforms whether it's your traditional on REL, your container based workloads on shift or automation that's being turned in by Ansible. Those are consistent across all these different hybrid cloud environments. So reduces the complexity by standardizing those platforms across any and all of those different substrates. Then, when you can take the data from those systems bring them centrally and use it to manage those things to a higher degree of automation. Now you take an, another sort of chunk of complexity out of the problem, right? Consistency of getting data from all those different systems being able to set policies and enforce things across all those distributed environments is huge. >> Yeah. And then, you know, it fills in the gaps when you start thinking about the siloed teams, you know, the, the, I think one of the messages that I've been hearing out of Red Hat Summit in the industry that's consistent is the unification trend that's going on. Unifying development teams in a way that creates more of an exponential value curve rather than just linear progressions in, in traditional IT. Are you guys seeing that as well? I mean, what's your take on this? That's that piece of the story? >> Well, I think the shift that we've seen for the last few years actually quite a few years with DevOps and SRE is started to bring a lot of the disciplines together that you mentioned that are traditionally silos. And you're finding the effectiveness of that is really around many of the areas that we've been discussing here which is open platforms that can run consistently across a hybrid environment, the ability to get data and visibility out of this platform. So you can see across the distributed environment across the hybrid environment and then the ability to take actions in Bourse or update environments through automation is, is is really what's critical to bring things to to bring it all together. >> Yeah. I think that's such an important point, Joe. You know, I was talking with Chris right around and we we've covered this in the past red hats success with academics in the young people coming into in the universities with computer science. It's not just computer science anymore. Now you have engineering degrees kind of cross-disciplinary with SRS is SRE movement because you're looking at cloud operations at scale. That's not an IT problem anymore. It's actually an IT next gen problem. And this is kind of what, there's no real degree. There's no real credential for, you know large scale hybrid cloud environment. You guys have the mass open cloud initiative. I saw that going on. That's some really pretty big things. This is a, a change and, and talent. What's your, what's your view on this? Because I think people want to learn what what do I need to be in the future? What position? >> So John it's a great question. I think Ansible actually addresses a number of the issues you brought up, which is, you know historically there've been different tools for each of the different groups. So, you know, developers had their favorite set of tools and different, IT areas their favorite set of tools and technologies. And it was sort of like a tower of Babel. People did not share the same, you know sort of languages and tools. Ansible crosses both your your development test and operational teams. So creates a common language, now that can be used across different teams. It's easy to understand. So it sort of democratizes automation. You don't have to be deeply skilled in some, you know misspoke language or technology in order to be able to do some level of automation. So I think sort of sharing the same technology and tools I'd like an answer, more democratizing it so that more people can get involved in automating sharing that automation across teams and unifying those worlds is huge, right? So I think that's a game changer as well in terms of getting these teams work holistically integrated. >> Yeah. And there's also a better together panel on the Ansible and advanced cluster management session. Folks watching should check it out on on the virtual event platform on that point while I got you here on that point, let's let's talk about the portfolio updates for advanced cluster management for Kubernetes, what's new since the Ansible Fest, Ansible Fest announcements >> There's quite a bit that's been new since Ansible Fest. Ansible Fest well actually going back to Summit last year we introduced advanced cluster management. For years, we've been seeing the growth of Kubernetes with cloud native and clusters. And what ACM really allows enterprises to do is is scale out their deployments of OpenShift. Well, one of the things we found is that as you're deploying workloads or clusters or trying to take care of the compliance, the importance of integrating that environment with the breadth of capabilities that Ansible has in automation. So that's what we announced that at Ansible Fest following last year's summit what we've done is put a lot more focus on that integration with Ansible. So when you bring up, provision a cluster maybe you need to make some storage or security configurations on behalf of that cluster or if you're taking care of the compliance how do you remediate any issues with Ansible or one of the things that get shown a lot, demonstrate a lot with customers like is when you're deploying applications into production, how do you configure the network? Do the network configurations like a load balancer maybe a ticket into your service management system along with say a threat detection on your security. So a lot of advances with ACM and the integration with a broader ecosystem of IT, in particular with, with Ansible >> What's the ecosystem update for partners? And this has comes up all the time. I want to make sure I get this in there. I want it, I missed it. Last time we chatted, you know, the partner impact to this. You mentioned the ecosystem and you've got native Coobernetti's, non-native what's native to open. You guys have a lot of native things and sometimes it's just support for other clouds. So you start to get into the integration questions. Partners are very interested in what you guys are doing. Can you share the partner update on how they play and what impacts them the most here? >> Yeah. On the events, cluster management ACM front first with this integration with Ansible that actually allows us to integrate with the wealth of partner ecosystem the Ansible apps, which is huge. So that's, that's one, one space. And then the way ACM works, this policy desirous state model is we've been able to integrate with a large number of partners around particularly the security space model the service management space, where they, where we can enforce the use of certain security tools on the on the clusters themselves. So it's really opened up how quickly partner offerings can be integrated into the OpenShift environment at scale across all the clusters that you want, that you need to support it on what the appropriate configurations and policies >> I got to ask you on the insight side you mentioned the expansion across the platform. Now, if you go out and take out to the ecosystem, you know there's guard rails around governance how far can partners push their data in terms of sharing? That's something that might come up when you comment on that. >> Sure. So Red Hat, you know, takes, you know our customer data very seriously. We're a trusted partner to our customers. So the data that we get from systems we make sure that we are following all of the governance and oversight necessary to protect that data. So far, we have basically been collecting that data and using that data at Red Hat. Our plan really is to allow partners with the right degree of governance and control to be able to use some of that data in the future, under the right conditions whether it's anonymized or aggregated, things like that to be able to take that data and to add value to customers if they can enrich customers or or help customers by getting some access to that data without every vendor or partner, having to go out to systems and having to connect and pull data back. That's a pretty tough situation for customers to live with. But I think that fact that we're ahead is trusted. We've been doing this for awhile. We know how to handle the data. We know how to provide the governance. But our plan really is to enable partners to use that data ecosystem. I will say that initially what they had said about ACM and partners, Ansible has been working with partners on the automation side at a very large scale, right? So if you look at the amount of partners that are doing automation, work with us we have some pretty strong, you know, depth there. But in terms of working with partners, our plan is to take the data ecosystem, expand that as well. >> It's really a nice mix between the Ansible OpenShift and then REL, do you guys have great insights across now? I think the open innovation just continues to be every year. I say the same thing. It's almost like a broken record but every year it just gets better and better. You know, innovation out in the open you guys doing a great job and continuing and now certainly as the pandemic looks like it's coming to an end soon, post-pandemic, a lot more projects are being worked on a lot more productivity, as we said at the top. So to end the segment out I'd love to get you guys to weigh in on what happens next. As we come out of the pandemic, the table has been set. The foundation's there, cloud native is continuing to accelerate rapidly in the open OpenSource, going through them on another level. What's next what's, what's going to what's next for customers. Are they going to continue to double down on those? The winds they're going to shut down certain projects. What happens after this pandemic? How do people grow, Dave? We'll start with you. >> Well, I think, yes we all see the light at the end of the tunnel, John. It's great. And I think if a positive, is it really throughout this? We've been accelerated in the digitization and at modernization cross the board across industries. Okay. And that is really teaching all of us a lot about the importance of how do you start managing and running this at scale and securing this at scale. So I think what we'll see coming out of this is just that much more effort, open ecosystems. How you really bring together data across insights? How do you bring in increasing the amount of analytics AI to now do something turn that data into information that you can respond with and that in turn, close it, closing the loop with automation against or against your hybrid cloud environment? We're just going to see acceleration of that occurring. >> Awesome, great insights there. Open data insights, automation, all kind of coming together. AI. You don't have AI in your, your plans. Someone was Wall Street was joking. That's going to be the future stable stakes get listed on Wall Street. You got to have some sort of AI piece. They have great insight, Joe, your take on what's next? What, what what's going to what's going to happen as we come out of the pandemic? >> Yeah. We've definitely seen people, you know advance their digital transformation. And I don't think it's going to stop. Right? So the speed scale and complexity or just put more pressure on teams, right? To be able to support these environments that are evolving at light speed. So I think Red Hat is really well positioned and is a great partner for folks who are trying to get more digital, faster trying to leverage these technologies from the hybrid cloud to the edge. They're going to need lots of help. Red Hat is in a great position. >> Okay. >> You guys doing great work, Dave Linquist, Joe Fitzgerald. Great to have you back on again. Open, always wins. And as end users become much more participants in the open source ecosystem and user contributions and user interactions software at scale, it's now a new come next generation commercial environment, You guys are doing a great job. Thank you for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks John. >> Okay. Red Hat Summit 21 CUBE coverage. I'm John Furrier getting all the action from the experts who've been there, done that living through it, being more productive and have bringing benefits to you being open source. Thanks for watching.

>>mhm >>Yes, >>everyone welcome back to the cubes coverage of Red Hat summit 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube, we've got a great segment here on how Red Hat is working with telcos and the disruption in the telco cloud. We've got a great guest cube alumni Darrell Jordan smith, senior vice president of industries and global accounts at Red Hat, uh Darryl, great to see you. Thanks for coming back on the cube. >>It's great to be here and I'm really excited about having the opportunity to talk to you >>today. Yeah, we're not in person in real life is coming back soon, although I hear mobile world congress might be in person this year looking like it's good a lot of people gonna be virtual activating. I know a lot to talk about this is probably one of the most important topics in the industry because when you talk about telco industry, you're really talking about um the edge, talking about five G talking about industrial benefits for business because it's not just Edge for connectivity access. We're talking about internet of things from self driving cars to business benefits. It's not just consumer, it's really bringing that together, you guys are really leading with the cloud native platform from rail, open shift men and services. Everything about the cloud native underpinnings you guys have been successful as a company but now in your area, telco is being disrupted. Absolutely. Give us your take on this is super exciting. >>Well, it's actually one of the most exciting times I've been in the industry for 30 years are probably aging myself now. But in the telecommunications industry, this, for me is the most exciting. It's where technology is actually going to visibly change the way that everyone interacts with the network and with the applications that are being developed out there on our platform and as you mentioned IOT and a number of the other ai and Ml innovations that are occurring in the market place. We're going to see a new wave of applications and innovation. >>What's the key delivery workloads you're seeing with Five G environment? Um, obviously it's not just, you know, five G in the sense of thinking about mobile phones or mobile computers as they are now. Um, it's not just that consumer, hey, surf the web and check your email and get an app and download and communicate. It's bigger than that. Now, can you tell us Where you see the workloads coming in on the 5G environment? >>You hit the nail on the head, The the the, the killer application isn't the user or the consumer and the way that we traditionally have known it, because you might be able to download a video in that take 20 seconds less, but you're not going to pay an awful lot more money for that. The real opportunity around five years, the industrial applications, things that I connected car, automotive, driving, um factory floor automation, how you actually interface digitally with your bank, how we're doing all sorts of things more intelligently at the edge of the network using artificial intelligence and machine learning. So all of those things are going to deliver a new experience for everyone that interacts with the network and the telcos are at the heart of it. >>You know, I want to get into the real kind of underpinnings of what's going on with the innovations happening. You just kind of laid out kind of the implications of the use cases and the target application workloads. But there's kind of two big things going on with the edge in five G one is under the hood, networking, you know, what's going on with the moving the packets around the workload, throughput, bandwidth etcetera, and all that goes on under the hood. And then there's the domain expertise in the data where AI and machine learning have to kind of weaving. So let's take the first part first. Um open shift is out there. Red hat's got a lot of products, but you have to nail the networking requirements and cloud Native with container ization because at large scales, not just packaged, it's all kinds of things going on security, managing a compute at the edge. There's a lot of things under the hood, if you will from a networking perspective, could you share what red hats doing in that area? >>So when we last spoke with the cube, we talked a lot about GMOs and actually people living Darryl, >>can I Cause you really quickly? I'm really sorry. Keep your answer in mind. We're gonna >>go right from that question. >>We're just kidding. Um, are you, is anything that you're >>using or touching running into the desk? We're just getting >>a little bit of shakiness on your camera >>and I don't want to. >>So anyway, >>that is my, my elbows. No worries. So no >>worries. Okay, so take your answer. I'll give you like a little >>321 from behind the scenes >>and and we'll go right as if >>john just ask >>the questions, we're gonna stay running. >>So I think, uh, >>can you ask the question just to get out of my mind? Perfect. Well let's, let's do >>from that. So we'll stay on your shot. So you'll hear john, but it'll be as if >>he just asked the question. So jOHn >>team up. Here we go. I'm just gonna just jimmy and just keep my other question on the okay, here we go. So Darryl, open shift is optimized for networking requirements for cloud native. It's complex into the hood. What is red hat doing under the hood to help in the edge in large complex networks for large scale. >>Yeah. So, so that's a very good question in that we've been building on our experience with open stack and the last time I was on the cube, I talked about, you know, people virtualizing network applications and network services. We're taking a lot of that knowledge that we've learned from open stack and we're bringing that into the container based world. So we're looking at how we accelerate packets. We're looking at how we build cloud native applications on bare metal in order to drive that level of performance. We're looking at actually how we do the certification around these applications and services because they may be sitting in different app lets across the cloud, but in some instances running on multiple clouds at the same time. So we're building on our experience from open stack, we're bringing all of that into open shipping, container based environment with all of the tallinn necessary to make that effective. >>It's interesting with all the automation going on. Certainly with the edge developing nicely the way you're describing it, certainly disrupting the Telco cloud, you have an operator mindset of cloud Native operator thinking, kind of, it's distributed computing, we know that, but it's hybrid. So it's essentially cloud operations. So there's an operator mindset here that's just different. Could you just share quickly before we move on to the next segment? What's different about this operating model for the, these new kinds of operators? As you guys been saying, the C I O is the new cloud operator, That's the skill set they have to be thinking and certainly to anyone else provisioning and managing infrastructure has to think like an operator, what's your >>view? They certainly do need anything like an operator. They need to look at how they automate a lot of these functions because they're actually deployed in many different places will at the same time they have to live independently of each other. That's what cloud native actually really is. So the whole, the whole notion of five nines and vertically orientated stacks of five nines availability that's kind of going out the window. We're looking at application availability across a hybrid cloud environment and making sure the application can live and sustain itself. So operators as part of open shift is one element of that operations in terms of management and orchestration and all the tooling that we actually also providers red hat but also in conjunction with a big partner ecosystem, such as companies like net cracker, for example, or IBM as another example or Erickson bringing their automation tool sets and their orchestration tool sets of that whole equation to address exactly that problem >>you bring up the ecosystem. And this is really an interesting point. I want to just hit on that real quick because reminds me of the days when we had this massive innovation wave in the nineties during that era. The client server movement really was about multi vendor, right. And that you're starting to see that now and where this ties into here I think is when we get your reaction to this is that, you know, moving to the cloud was all about 2 2015. Move to the cloud moved to the cloud cloud native. Now it's all about not only being agile and better performance, but you're gonna have smaller footprints with more security requires more enterprise requirements. This is now it's more complicated. So you have to kind of make the complications go away and now you have more people in the ecosystem filling in these white spaces. So you have to be performance and purpose built if you will. I hate to use that word, but or or at least performing an agile, smaller footprint grade security enabling other people to participate. That's a requirement. Can you share your reaction to that? >>Well, that's the core of what we do. A red hat. I mean we take open source community software into a hardened distribution fit for the telecommunications marketplace. So we're very adapt to working with communities and third parties. That ecosystem is really important to us. We're investing hundreds of engineers, literally hundreds of engineers working with our ecosystem partners to make sure that their applications services certified, running on our platform, but but also importantly is certified to be running in conjunction with other cloud native applications that sit over the same cloud. So that that is not trivial to achieve in any stretch of the imagination. And a lot of 80 technology skills come to bear. And as you mentioned earlier, a lot of networking skills, things that we've learned and we've built with a lot of these traditional vendors, we bring that to the marketplace. >>You know, I've been saying on the cube, I think five years ago I started talking about this, it was kind of a loose formulation, I want to get your reaction because you brought up ecosystem, you know, saying, you know, you're gonna see the big clouds develop out. The amazon Microsoft came in after and now google and others and I said there's gonna be a huge wave of of what I call secondary clouds and you see companies like snowflake building on on top of amazon and so you start to see the power law of new cloud service providers emerging that can either sit and work with across multiple clouds. Either one cloud or others that's now multi cloud and hybrid. But this rise of the new more C. S. P. S, more cloud service providers, this is a huge part of your area right now because some call that telco telco cloud edge hits that. What is red hat doing in this cloud service provider market specifically? How do you help them if I'm a cloud service provider, what do I get in working with Red Hat? How do I be successful because it's very easy to be a cloud service provider now more than ever. What do I do? How do you help? How do you help me? >>Well, we we we offer a platform called open shift which is a containerized based platform, but it's not just a container. It involves huge amounts of tooling associated with operating it, developing and around it. So the concept that we have is that you can bring those applications, developed them once on 11 single platform and run it on premise. You can run it natively as a service in Microsoft environment. You can actually run it natively as a service in amazon's environment. You can running natively on IBM's Environment. You can build an application once and run it in all of them depending on what you want to achieve, who actually provide you the best, owning the best terms and conditions the best, the best tooling in terms of other services such as Ai associated with that. So it's all about developing it once, certifying it once but deploying it in many, many different locations, leveraging the largest possible developing ecosystem to drive innovation through applications on that common platform. >>So assumption there is that's going to drive down costs. Can you why that benefits the economics are there? We talk about the economics. >>Yeah. So it does drive down costs a massive important aspect but more importantly it drives up agility. So time to market advantages actually attainable for you so many of the tell coast but they deploy a network service traditionally would take them literally maybe a year to roll it all out. They have to do it in days, they have to do updates in real time in data operations in literally minutes. So we were building the fabric necessary in order to enable those applications and services to occur. And as you move into the edge of the network and you look at things like private five G networks, service providers or telcos in this instance will be able to deliver services all the way out to the edge into that private five G environment and operate that in conjunction with those enterprise clients. >>So open shit allows me if I get this right on the CSP to run, have a horizontally scalable organization. Okay. From a unification platform standpoint. Okay, well it's 5G and other functions, is that correct? That's correct. Ok. So you've got that now, now I want to come in and bring in the top of the stack or the other element. That's been a big conversation here at Redhead Summit and in the industry that is A I and the use of data. One of the things that's emerging is the ability to have both the horizontal scale as well as the special is um of the data and have that domain expertise. Uh you're in the industries for red hat. This is important because you're gonna have one industry is going to have different jargon, different language, different data, different KPI S. So you've got to have that domain expertise to enable the ability to write the apps and also enable a I can, you know how that works and what were you doing there? >>So we're developing open shift and a number of other of our technologies to be fit for the edge of the network where a lot of these Ai applications will reside because you want them closer to the client or the the application itself where it needs to reside. We're creating that edge fabric, if you like. The next generation of hybrid cloud is really going to be, in my view at the edge we're enabling a lot of the service providers to go after that but we're also igniting by industry, You mentioned different industries. So if I look at, for example, manufacturing with mind sphere, we recently announced with Seaman's how they do at the edge of the network factory automation, collecting telemetry, doing real time data and analytics, looking at materials going through the factory floor in order to get a better quality results with lower, lower levels of imperfections as they run through that system and just one industry and they have their own private and favorite Ai platforms and data sets. They want to work with with their own data. Scientists who understand that that that ecosystem inherently you can move that to health care and you can imagine how you actually interface with your health care professionals here in north America, but also around the world, How those applications and services and what the Ai needs to do in terms of understanding x rays and looking at common errors associated with different x rays to. A practitioner can make a more specific diagnosis faster saving money and potentially lives as well. So different different vertical markets in this space have different AI and Ml requirements and needs different data science is different data models. And what we're seeing is an ecosystem of companies that are starting up there in that space that we have, what service part of IBM. But you have processed the labs of H T H 20 and a number of other very, very important AI based companies in that ecosystem. >>Yeah. And you get the horizontal scalability of the control plane and in the platform if you will, that gives you cross organizational leverage uh and enable that than vertical expertise. >>Exactly. And you want to build an Ai application that might run on a factory floor for for certain reasons to its location and what they're actually physically building. You might want to run their on premise, you might actually want to put it into IBM cloud or in Zur or into AWS, You develop, it wants to open shift, you can deploy it in all of those as a service sitting natively in those environments. >>Darrell, great chat. I got a lot going on telco cloud, There's a lot of cloud, native disruption going on. It's a challenge and an opportunity and some people have to be on the right side of history on this one if they're going to get it right. Well, no, and the scoreboard will be very clear because this is a shift, it's a shift. So again, you hit all the key points that I wanted to get out. But I want to ask you to more areas that are hot here at red hat summit 21 as well again and as well in the industry and get your reaction and thoughts on uh, and they are def sec ops and automation. Okay. Two areas. Everyone's talking about DEV ops which we know is infrastructure as code programming ability under the hood. Modern application development. All good. Yeah, the second their security to have sex shops. That's critical automation is continuing to be the benefits of cloud native. So Deb see cops and automation. What you're taking has that impact the telco world in your world. >>You can't you can't operate a network without having security in place. You're talking about very sensitive data. You're talking about applications that could be real time chris pickling mrs actually even life saving or life threatening if you don't get them right. So the acquisition that red hat recently made around stack rocks, really helps us make that next level of transition into that space. And we're looking about how we go about securing containers in a cloud native environment. As you can imagine, there will be many, many thousands tens of thousands of containers running if one is actually misbehaving for what one of a better term that creates a security risk in a security loophole. Were assuring that up that's important for the deployment, open shift in the Tokyo domain and other domains in terms of automation. If you can't do it at scale and if you look at five G and you look at the radios at the edge of the network and how you're gonna provision of those services. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of nodes, hundreds of thousands. You have to automate a lot of those processes, otherwise you can't scale to meet the opportunity, you can't physically deploy, >>you know, Darryl, this is a great conversation, you know, as a student of history and um development and I always kind of joke about that and you you've been around the industry for a long time. Telcos have been balancing this um evolution of digital business for many, many decades. Um and now with Cloud Native, it's finally a time where you're starting to see that it's just the same game now, new infrastructure, you know, video, voice, text data all now happening all transformed and going digital all the way, all aspects of it in your opinion. How should telcos be thinking about as they put their plans in place for next generation because you know, the world is now cloud Native. There's a huge surface here of opportunities, different ecosystem relationships, the power dynamics are shifting. It's it's really a time where there will be winners and there will be losers. What's your, what's your view on on how the telco industry needs to clarify and how they be positioned for success. >>So, so one of the things I truly believe very deeply that the telcos need to create a platform, horizontal platform that attracts developer and ecosystems to their platform because innovation is gonna sit elsewhere, then there might be a killer application that one telco might create. But in reality most of those innovations that most of those disruptors are going to occur from outside of that telco company. So you want to create an environment where you're easy to engage and you've got maximum sets of tools and versatility and agility in order to attract that innovation. If you attract the innovation, you're going to ignite the business opportunity that 5G and 60 and beyond is going to actually provide you or enable your business to drive. And you've really got to unlock that innovation and you can only unlock in our view, red hat innovation. If you're open, you follow open standards, you're using open systems and open source is a method or a tool that you guys, if you're a telco, I would ask you guys need to leverage and harness >>and there's a lot, there's a lot of upside there if you get that right, there's plenty of upside, a lot of leverage, a lot of assets to advantage the whole offline online. Coming back together, we are living in a hybrid world, certainly with the pandemic, we've seen what that means. It's put a spotlight on critical infrastructure and the critical shifts. If you had to kind of get pinned down Darryl, how would you describe that learnings from the pandemic as folks start to come out of the pandemic? There's a light at the end of the tunnel as we come out of this pandemic, companies want a growth strategy, wanna be positioned for success what you're learning coming out of the pandemic. >>So from my perspective, which really kind of 11 respect was was very admirable. But another respect is actually deeply uh a lot of gratitude is the fact that the telecommunications companies because of their carrier, great capabilities and their operational prowess were able to keep their networks up and running and they had to move significant capacity from major cities to rural areas because everyone was working from home and in many different countries around the world, they did that extremely and with extremely well. Um and their networks held up I don't know and maybe someone will correct me and email me but I don't know one telco had a huge network outage through this pandemic and that kept us connected. It kept us working. And it also what I also learned is that in certain countries, particularly at a time where they have a very large prepaid market, they were worried that the prepaid market in the pandemic would go down because they felt that people would have enough money to spend and therefore they wouldn't top up their phones as much. The opposite effect occurred. They saw prepaid grow and that really taught me that that connectivity is critical in times of stress that we're also everyone's going through. So I think there are some key learnings that >>yeah, I think you're right on the money there. It's like they pulled the curtain back of all the fun and said necessity is the mother of invention and when you look at what happened and what had to happen to survive in the pandemic and be functional. Your, you nailed it, the network stability, the resilience, but also the new capabilities that were needed had to be delivered in an agile way. And I think, you know, it's pretty much the forcing function for all the projects that are on the table to know which ones to double down on. So I think you pretty much nailed it. Darrell Jordan smith, senior vice president of industries and global accounts for red hat kibble, unnatural. Thanks for that insight. Thanks for sharing great conversation around telcos and telco clouds and all the edge opportunities. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you john >>Okay. It's the cubes coverage of Red Hat summit 21. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm mhm

>>lost myself. >>You know, one of the things that I love about the Cuba being doing it for 11 years now is that everyone that we interviewed years and years ago, they all getting promoted. So much fun to watch everyone grow and and now it's stews over there now so it's fun to get to do something. When >>are you gonna, are you gonna get to interview stew for? Way >>to put them on the hot seat? I think he's afraid actually >>throughout all the talking points. Right. 1st question. The way >>we do miss too. I will say that it is amazing. Okay, I'm ready to go. >>Red >>Hat Summit read. Pat Summitt, we're coming to you in. Hello and welcome back to the Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual coverage I'm john for is the cube coverage of Palo alto with the remote interviews for our virtual conference. You've got two great guests cube alumni's Tom Anderson VP of answerable automation platform and Robyn Bergeron who's the Senior manager and small community community architect and all the great things involved, Robyn great to see you tom. Thanks for coming back on red hat some of this year. Virtual. Good to see you. >>Thanks for having us. >>So since last summit, what's the updates on the answerable community and the automation platform? Tom we'll start with you automation platform. What's the big updates? >>Yeah. So since the last time a lot has happened in the unanswerable land. If you will also last time that we were talking about constant collections have given distribution format or the integrations that ends this close. So a lot of the content. Uh huh. As well as the commercial users we launched last year a fucking program certified contact program with our partners and including partners to certify the content collections today. Create co certify them where we work together to make sure that they're uh developed against and tested against a proper step so that both of us can provide them to our customer basis with confidence that they're going to be working informed broccoli and that we red hat and our partners co support those out in our customers production parts. That was a big deal. The other thing that we announced late last fall was the private automation hub. And that's the idea where our customers obviously appreciate the idea of being able to go to Ansel Galaxy or the answerable automation to go and grab these content collections. This these integrations and bring them down in their environment. They wanted a way that they wanted a methodology where there are a repository where they can curate content from different sources and then manager across the environment. The automation across their environment. Kind of leaning into a little bit of automation content as code if you will. And um, so we launched the automation of the private automation hub where that sits in our customers infrastructure, whether that's in the cloud or on premises with both, and allows them to grab content from Galaxy from the answer automation. Uh, the answer automation hub on cloud got red hat dot com as well as their internally developed content and to be able to manage and provide that across their organization governed by a set of policies. So lots of stuff is going on real advancement in the amount of content that we provide, uh, the amount of collections that we provide them certified up for customers and and the ability to manage that company across the teams. >>I want to do a drill down on some of the unification of teams, which is a big message as well as operating scale because that's the super value proposition you guys have and want to get that. But robert, I want to come back to you on the community so much has gone on, we are now into the pandemic for almost a year and a half now, um it's been a productivity boom. People, developers have been working at home for a long time, so it's not a new workflow for them, but you've seen a lot more productivity. What has changed in the community since last summit? Again, virtual to virtual again between the Windows here, event Windows, you guys have a lot going on. What's new in the community gets an update? >>Yeah, well, I mean if we go back to summit, you know, this time ish, you know, last year we were wrapping up more or less the, it was, you know, we used to have, you know, everything you would install answerable, you would get all the modules, you get everything, you know, it was all all all together, which, you know, is great for new users who don't want to have to figure things out. It helps them to really get up and started running quickly. Um and But, you know, for a from a community perspective, trying to manage that level of complexity turned out to be pretty hard. So the move to collection was actually great for, you know, not just, you know, for a user perspective, but also from a community perspective. Um and we came out with the answerable to 10 that was last fall, I believe, and that was the first real release advance. Well, where we had, you know, collections were fully in stan she hated uh you know, they were available on Galaxy, but you can also get them as part of the animal community distribution. Um, fast forward to now. You know, we just had the answer to all three point oh release here in february and we're looking to answer bill ford auto here in early May. So, you know, there's been a lot of activity, a lot has improved honestly as a result of the changes that we've made, it's made it a lot easier for contributors to get in with a smaller group that's more of their size and you know, be able to get start and identify, you know, who are, they're interested peers in the community. So that's been a boon for us honestly. Um, you know, the pandemic otherwise is, you know, I think taught all of us, you know, certainly you john about the, the amazing things that we can do virtually. So we've had a lot of our meetups pivot to being virtual meetups and, and things like that. And it's been great to see how, how easily the community's been able to pivot around. You know, this sort of event. Um, I hope that we don't have to just keep practicing it for forever, but in the meantime, you know, it's enabled us to continue to get things done. Thank goodness to every video platform on earth. Yeah, >>well we appreciate we're gonna come back and talk more about that in the future, but best practice what we all learned and stories. But I think I want to come back to you on the persona side of answerable because one of the things we talked about last time that seems to be getting a lot of traction is that multiple personas. So I want to just hold off that will come back tom back to back to you were red hat summit. You guys have an apple fest, which is your own event that you guys drill down on this. So users Washington, you know this, your own community, but now part of red hat part of IBM, which IBM thinks also happening soon as well. Red hat some, it still is unique event. How is answerable fitting into the big picture? Because the, the value proposition of unifying teams is really consistent now with red hats overall arching thing, which is operating at scale open shift Robin just mentioned, where is the automation platform going this year? What's the story here at red hat summit for the automation platform? >>Yeah, that's that's a great question. We've seen so kind of timeless, a little bit of dependent and how it has accelerated some existing trends that we already saw and one of those is really around the democratization of the application delivery teams, more people delivering infrastructure and applications independent of each other, which is right, faster and more agile, all of those other. Good, good uh, words that apply to that. But what that does bring up is the opportunity for um >>patient >>of work, replication of effort, uh not reusing necessary things that are in existence already that other things may have maybe not complying with all of the policies if you will, the configuration and compliance policies. And so it's really kind of brought danceable out into focus even more here because of the car comin back plane that provides a common language and common automation back plane across these different teams and across these different personas. The great thing about what we supply for these different personas, whether its application developers, infrastructure owners, network engineers set up teams, get ox teams, There's so many of these options out there now, All want independent access to infrastructure and deploying infrastructure. And Answerable has the kind of levers that each of those communities, whether it's API or Cli s or event based automation or uh web hooks, et cetera et cetera. You know, service catalog. He lies all of those um interfaces if you will or modalities are accessible into hands of water nations. What's really allowed us to be this sort of connective tissue or blue across these different silos or remains of the organization the time of the year? Open ship specifically one of the things that we talked about last fall and are answerable fest was our integration between Answerable to automation platform are advanced cluster management product and are open ship platform that allows native applications running on open ship. Be able to talk to a sensible automation operator that's running on that same platform to do things off platform for it that our customers are already using. Answer before. So connecting their cloud, native platforms with their existing ecosystems and infrastructures. Systems of records, network systems, uh, ticketing systems, you name it. So all of those sort of integrations and school has become the connected blew across all of these different environments time. Traditional, anti biotic native, you name it. So it's really been it's really been fun and it's been an exciting time for us inside the portfolio. And uh, >>that's a great point connective tissue is a great way to describe some of these platform benefits because you have been on this platform for a really long time and the benefits are kind of being seen in the market. Certainly as people have to move faster with the agility robert. I want to come back to you because you brought up this idea of personas. I mean we all know devops infrastructure as code has been our religion for over a decade more, but now the word DEv sec ops is more prevalent in all the conversations the securities now weaved in here. How are you seeing that play out in the community and then tom if you can give some color commentary to on the automation platform, how security fits in. So devops everything's being operationalized at scale, we get that that's one of the value problems You have. But def sec off as a persona, more people want more sex. Deb is great more ops and standardisation. More developers, agile standards and then security def sec ops. What's your? I >>thought it was dev net sec off. >>Okay. I've forgotten that they were putting that in their networks abstracted away, you know, As we say. Yeah. >>Well, you know, from, from my perspective, you know there are people and their jobs all over the place is right. Like they you know the more they can feel like they're efficient and doing great stuff at their work. Like they're happy to bring as many people into the fold as possible, right? And you know normally security has always been this you know it's sort of like networking right? It's always been this sort of isolated this special group over here that's the traditional you know one of the traditional I. T. Bottlenecks that causes us to not be able to get anything done. But you know on a community level we see folks who are interested in security you know all the time. I know we've certainly done quite a bit of work with some folks at IBM around one of their products which I assume tom will get more into here in just a moment, but from, you know, a community perspective, I mean, we've seen people who have been writing, you know, playbooks and roles and you know, now collections for uh you know, all the traditional government testing, you know, is are, you know, missed standards, all of that kind of stuff. Um and you know, it's one of those, it's part of network effects and it's a great place where actually automation hub, I think, you know, for folks who are on prem or you know, any of our customers are really going to start to see lots of value is how it will be able to connect folks inside the organization organically through just the place where I'm doing my answerable things, allows them to find each other really, and build those, you know, take it from being silos of automation everywhere into a really sort of networked, you know, internal network of of answerable friends and uh danceable power users that can work together and collaborate, you know, just the same way that we do an open source >>and tom so I. T. Modernization requires security. What's your take on this? Because, you know, you got cluster a lot of cluster advanced cluster management issues, you've got to deal with the modern apps, they're coming, I. T. S got to evolve. What's your take on all >>this? Yeah, not only does I have to call but it's it's an integration like the rest of the environment and be able to respond the spirit of that song on the areas that we put a lot of effort into advanced in terms of curating and solutions around national security automation. We talked about that in the past, the idea of connecting the SEc ops teams that are doing intrusion detection or threat hunting and then responding in an automated way to those threats protections. Right? So, connecting stepped up to the bike, which is traditionally been styled operations and silo teams. And now it is curated against the security automation uh, solution that we've got a market with our partners. It connects those two teams in a single sort of way. We've done a lot of work with our friends that idea around this area because they are big and that security area, a radar and other products in their portfolio. So we've done a lot of work with them but we don't want to work with lots of our partners for their side. There are Microsoft in those areas. Traditionally Danceable has done a great job on sort of compliance around configuration enforcement, right setting and enforcing configuration. Now we moved into connecting set pops with IT security automation. And now with our acquisition of staff blocks along with our advanced custom management immigration with Danceable were starting to say, what are the things inside that sack office workflow that may require integration or automation packaged? Automate automation with other parts of the environment, bringing all of those pieces together as we move forward to security for us. >>Okay. I gotta ask you guys the number one question that I get all the time and I see in the marketplace is kind of a combo question is how do I accelerate the automation of my cloud native development with my traditional infrastructure? Because as people put in green born the cloud projects, whether it's whether and then integrating able to cloud on premises with nutritional infrastructure, how do I accelerate those two environments? How I automate accelerate the automation? >>Yeah. So it's a great story for us and this is what we're talking about, small and special as we have bringing together of our advanced cluster management product, open ship platform and it's just, you know, widespread use through all the automation of both traditional and cognitive changes. Whether it's cloud infrastructure on premise, start network, you name it, customers are using answerable user, you're using answer to do all kinds of pieces in the system infrastructure. Being able to tie that to their new collaborative initiatives without having to redo all of that work that they've already done to integrate that existing um infrastructure automation with their cognitive accelerate substantial what I call the offer operationalization to say operated operationalization, their cloud native platforms that are existing infrastructure and existing I uh, ecosystem. I believe that that's where the answer the automation and plays a key role in connecting those students is together without having to redo all that work that's been done in investment >>robert. What's your take on this? This is what people are working on the trenches, they realized cloud benefits. They got some cloud native action, and also that they got the on the traditional environment, they got to get them connected and automated. >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the beauty of answerable, you know, from an end user perspective is, you know, how easy it is to learn and how easy the languages to learn. And I think, you know, that that portability, you know, it doesn't matter like how much of a rocket scientist you are, you know, everybody appreciates simplicity, everybody appreciates being able to hand something simple to somebody else and letting other people get done and having it be more or less in a it's not quite english, but it's definitely, you know, answer is quite readable, right? Um, and you know, when we looked at, you know, when we started to work on all the answerable operators, you know, one of that, one of the main pieces there was, making sure that that simplicity that we have an answerable is brought over directly into the operators. So just because it's cloud native doesn't mean you suddenly have to learn, you know, a whole set of new languages and peoples just as portable there as it is to any other part of the your mighty organization, infrastructure or whatever it is that you have going on. >>Well, there's a lot of action going on here at red hat summit 2021 things I wanted to bring up in context of the show um is the successor and the importance of you guys having answerable collections. This has come up multiple times. Um as we talked about those personas and you've got these new contributors, you've got people contributing content. Um, as open source continues to grow and be phenomenal value proposition. Touch on this uh, concept of collections. What's the updates? Why is it important? Why should folks pay attention to it and continue to innovate with collection? >>This is from a commercial perspective of food products, questions and down has made a lot of these contributors to create an exploit, distribute content at the end, the problems mentioned earlier, these iterations announced, we'll have all of the documentation, all those collections, all within one. If you call the batteries included back at the time that day. Right. But that, that meant that contributors um, be able to deploy their content with the base, has the distribution. They have to wait for the next version. Events. Alright, that's when that content would get redistributed the next investment. He coupled content from the core engine, putting that into elections that are individual elements of related innovations closes can use at their own pace. So users and customers can get content baby a case that contributors like in public. So, uh, customers don't have to wait for the next evolution shipping products. You get a new version of the immigration is really like, you know, so again, a couple of those things that last into the different faces the engine or the platform itself is the state Department's here. It's going to be a certain website. Content itself, all the different content, the network providers ready platforms, all of those same pace. You girls have their own life cycle quite sweet. It allows us to get more functionality for customers hands like bigger and then launching our Certified can support that. Okay. Certified. Support that content tells me the values that we bring our customers with the subscription. Is that ecosystem and highest partners that we work with Certified and support the stuff that we should and support with possible superb benefits, both on the access to the technology as well as the access to the value of this. In terms of immigration testing and support >>Robin, What's your take on the community? I see custom automation with with the connector, a lot of action going on collections. >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, it's been interesting, you know, tom just mentioned the, you know how everything previously all had to be released all at once. Right. And if you think about, you know sure I have answerable installed but you know, how often do I have to, you know, just even as a regular, I'm not a system administrator these days, type person like how often do I have to, you know, click that button to update, you know, my Mac or my Lennox machine or, you know, my Windows machine or, you know, the operating system on my telephone, right? Every time one of these devices that answerable connects to or a program or whatever it is, connects to something, those things are all operating and, you know, developing themselves at their own pace is right? So when a new version of, you know, uh, uh, well, we'll call Red Hat enterprise Linux when a new version of Red Hat enterprise Lennox comes out, uh, if there are new changes or new features that, you know, we want to be able to connect to it. That's not really helpful when we're not releasing for another six months. Right? So it's really helped us, you know, from a community angle to be able to have each of these collections working in concert with, you know, like for example, in real like the Lennox subsystems that are actually making things that will be turned into collections, right? Like Sc Lennox or System D right? Like those things move at their own pace, we can update those at our own pace in in collections and then people can update those collections without having to wait another six months or eight months or whatever it is for a new version of answerable to come out. It's really made it easier for all of those, you know, developers of content to work on their content and their, you know, answerable relationships almost in sync and make sure that, you know, but not, I'm going to do it over here and then I'm gonna come back over here and fix everything later. It's more of a continuous >>development. So they contribute experience is better than you'd say. >>I'm sorry, >>the contributor experiences better than. Oh, >>absolutely. Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's, >>it's, >>you know, there's something to be said for. I wouldn't say it's like instant satisfaction, but, but certainly the ability to have a little bit more independence and be able to release things as as you see fit and not be gated by the entire rest of the project is amazing for those >>votes. So I put you on the spot, Robin. So if I'm a, I'm a developer bottom line, me, what's in it for me? Why? Why should I pay attention to collections? What's the bottom >>line? Well, you know, answerable as a platform and, and for benefits from network effects. Um, you know, the reason that we've gotten as big as we have sort of like the snowball rolling downhill, right, the more people that latch on to what you're doing, the more people benefit and the more, you know, additional folks want to join in. So, you know, if I, if I was working on any other product that I would consider being able to have automated with answerable, um, you know, the biggest thing that I would look at is, well, you know, what are those people also using or they automating it with an apple and I can guarantee you 99% of the time, everything else that people are using is also being automated with answerable. So you'd be crazy to not, you know, want to participate and make sure that you're providing the best, you know, and experience for your application because for every Application or device that we can connect you, there's probably 20 other competitors that also make similar applications that folks might also consider in lieu of you if you're not using your not providing ample content >>for it. Hey, make things easier, simple to use and you reduce the steps it takes to do things. That's a winning formula. Tom. I mean when you make things that good, then you get the network effect. But this highlights what you mentioned earlier about connective tissue. When you use words like connective tissue, it implies an organizational is not a mechanism. It's not just software, it's people, there's a people experience here in the automation platform. This seems to be the bottom line. What's, what's your take? What's your bottom line of you? I'm a developer. What's in it for me? Why should I pay attention to the automation platform? >>States of the public developer. What excites me is using it? Yeah, I'm just composition department and crossing those domains in silence and sort of can issue across these tools and resolve this means those contributors is developed as a great denomination come embedded in the hands of more people across the organization. Absoluteal more simple. five way by using the explanation. Sometimes they get access right. You see those out the automation of South coast for so long as they get access to existing automation faster. They have to run into the expert on their part requirement a local hotel folks and the real in terms of automation and that kind of a patient. Excellently. When I'm getting on you about the details of what it takes them, you configure the network and figure the storage elements. They rely on those automation developers and contributors that would do that for them. You must really work powers of this Children across those news process of human. Again when I got kidnapped and sent cops, the idea of connecting to the network, being able to do all of these tasks with the same language and the same. In addition, funds had some money faster and get some of the kind of quote responsibilities without worrying. Line >>Robin, you wanted to talk about something uh, in the community. Any updates? I think navigator you mentioned you wanted to mention uh, plug for that. Absolutely. >>So, you know, um, much like any other platform in the universe. You know, if you don't have really great uh, tools for developing content, you're kind of, you know, dead in the water, right? Or you're leaving it to fate. So we've been working on a new project. I'm not part of the product yet, but you know, it's sort of in a community exploratory phrase released early release often or you know, minimum viable project I guess might be the other way to describe it currently. Uh it's a called Animal Navigator, it's a TUI which is like a gooey, but it's got a sort of a terminal user interface look to it that allows you to, you know, develop, its a sort of interface where you can develop content, uh you know, all in one window, have your, you know, documentation accessible to you have, you know, all of your test results available to you in one window, um rather than I'm going to do something here and then I'm gonna go over here and now, I'm not sure. So now I'm gonna go over here and look at docs instead. It's all, you know, it's all in one place, um which we think will actually, but I mean, I know the folks who have seen it have already been like, but you know, it's definitely an early community stages right now. It's, you know, we can give you the link github dot com slash answer slash danceable navigator, but >>versus a gooey versus a command line interface are how do you innovate on the command line? It's a kuwaiti uh it's >>um you know, there there's so many ideas out there and I think tom can probably talk to some of this, you know, how that might relate to V. S. Code or you know, many of the other traditional developer ideas that are out there, but you know, the goal certainly to be able to integrate with some of those other pieces. Um but you know, it's one of those things where, you know, if everybody is using the same tool, we can start to enforce higher levels of quality and standards through that tool. Uh there's benefits for everyone tom, I don't know if you want to add on to that in any way. >>Yeah, it's just kind of one of our focus areas religious making it as easy as possible to create things and a lot of nations. So part of that is essentially a kind of road map in the nesting table and spoke that that's not presented to the security is you don't build test deploy. So people are making a contributor that builders life job. >>Well, thanks for coming on tom and Robyn. Thanks for sharing the insight here. Redhead Summit 21 virtual. I'll see you guys do continue to do a great job with the success of the platform, which has been, you know, consistently growing and having great satisfaction with developers and now ops teams and sec teams and Net teams, you know, unifying these teams is certainly a huge priority for enterprises because the end of the day, cloud scale is all about operating a skill, which means more standards, more operations. That's what you guys are doing. So. Congratulations on the continued success. Thanks for sharing. >>Thanks for having us. >>Okay. I'm John for here in the queue, we are remote with Cube virtual for Reddit Summit 2021. Thanks for watching what?