(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a NetApp storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and these business applications, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SaaS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud then come compute, Kubernetes. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a ETAP storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and this business App again, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SAS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud and encompass compute whoever it is. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE's Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with our leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this Cube Conversation, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Here in our Palo Alto studios, we got our quarantine crew, getting the remote interviews, getting the conversations that matter, a great guest Chris Eldredge, Senior Director of Business Intelligence at Paycor. Chris, thanks for joining today remotely from Ohio. Thank you very much. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to be here, John. >> I was just joking with a friend football seasons up in the air and I know Ohio you're stuck in between all the different cities there. The east coast, certainly there's a lot of football madness might be canceled. So, this COVID-19 has hit us hard and I hope everyone's safe out there with you guys. >> Yeah, yeah, we're staying hunkered down. >> So tell us more about Paycor. What are you guys doing to make a difference? >> Good question. Paycor is a software as a service company that focuses on payroll, human capital management, time, for small and medium businesses, and we are a growing company. We've got nearly 2000 employees, and we've been in business for about 30 years. But it really does feel like a start up every day. Because we have, such a focus for our customer and the technology is improving all the time. >> Business intelligence has been around, you have the old school guard companies and you've been around for 30 years, you've seen them, the technology has changed, and with that, there's been more data. Okay, now you add on the pandemic, and more surge of demand in computer science, data science, data engineering, one of the hottest categories on the job market front, all pointing to the same thing. There's a lot of challenges and a lot of opportunities around data, and the implications for businesses. And you guys are on the front lines, give us your take on how you see that evolving because more than ever data is at the center of the value proposition. And even more now and it's changing very rapidly, what's your perspective? >> Absolutely right, you would think when you have a pandemic, you would really slow things down. But in fact, we did not, in fact, we actually went from an environment where we were doing monthly and occasionally weekly reporting, and then all of a sudden, we needed daily updates. If you remember, when COVID first started out, and everything started closing, people wanted information fast and furious, and nobody really knew what to do. Luckily, because about a year before that, we had put in place a very dynamic and incremental approach to how we're going to enable data strategy at Paycor, we were able to just in a matter of days, give them a daily dashboard of over 50 metrics. >> What are some of the challenges you guys have faced? Because now you guys also have to move in real time, you got to put out the insights, they got to be actionable, but data is not that easy to work with, depending upon how it's built. So how are you guys facing the challenges, and what's the implication for your business? >> A great question again, so when I first came to Paycor in early 2019. We really had an environment where it was the wild west of data. There were lots of folks that were cobbling together their own data sets, people were rolling up products and customers any way they wanted to, and you had just incompatible data. Well, we really had to focus on there, and what made a difference to kind of unwind this, tangle of data was really to just talk to folks, get them aligned, get people to understand the true impact of data and if you can govern it, master it, then you can set it up in such a way that people understand how it mixes and matches with other data sets, you have power, and that was the real key is helping people understand the power of what they could unlock with their data, and then being ready to unleash that when it's needed. >> I talked a lot of data pros, I've seen Informatica, all these other companies, certainly cloud scale helps when you start to get into data that has to be integrated across different platforms or applications or new insights that are emerging out a new data sets, whether it's unstructured data or whatnot, you get more stakeholders more people in the equation, more fingers in the pie so to speak, as that happens, which is natural, by the way, you've seen that with virtual events and how people, what was once a department now as the whole company, a lot of stakeholders to please, how did you guys approach that? Because you got to align the business, you got to try to please everyone, and that's really hard to do. How do you get that done? >> Well, John, you have to be careful with what you do, because success is contagious, and once you start setting up one department or one function in a company, that they're happy with their data, most places that I've been and I've worked with this a long time, no one's ever happy with their data or their reporting, right, and so once you get people that are happy with it, all of a sudden, now that kind of explodes, and everybody wants your time, everybody wants your attention, and everybody wants their data to be accessible as well. And so you have to think about what does that scale look like? How do I go from five metrics to 500 metrics? And how quickly do I need to do that? Those are the kind of things you have in mind. >> It's interesting, you mentioned the scale, I'll throw another word at that, and I want to get your reaction to it because scale matters, speed also matters. You got scale and speed, these are becoming requirements. What's your reaction to that? >> Yes. Not just scale and speed, but the technology itself is changing. If you think about predictive modeling, if you think about data science that people talk about and how to operationalize artificial intelligence, if you don't have a good data foundation, none of that's going to help you. So, you really have to enable speed by having processes in place where as the business changes, you can make sure that you have the right data, you have to enable scale, and that you could go easily from a couple thousand records to your millions and millions of records depending on how the data needs to be structured, how you want to think about the data and what kind of features you would want, and let's just say a predictive model, that really proliferate your data, so you need all three of those things. >> Take me through play by play on how you guys modernize with Informatica, because you had to kind of take a step back, you got to look holistically at things. How did they play that role in your modernization of the business intelligence environment? >> Well, essentially, we took a look at the landscape and we saw that most people were self sourcing their data and they didn't really know how, and when something went wrong, they really struggled with, how do I fix this? How do I re-run it? If I'm on vacation who's going to make sure that these data sets get populated? And so we changed the game with Informatica by basically saying, let's pre-think all the things that we need to do around data movement into the data warehouse. And let's really think about not from A, how do I get it from A to B, but how do I get a production grade pipeline of data into my environment, so that I can really have what I need, and anybody in the business that is either part of the data team, or part of the IT team can understand what we're doing, can troubleshoot what we're doing, and we can have a common language, about how we talk about that data. So we put in place standards, we put in place, common metadata, we put in place a process that was aligned across, and we made sure that we put protections in there using things like DevOps, to make sure that whatever we gave the business in terms of data was bulletproof, and was structured in such a way that it had been tested, it was backed up, and it was something that we could actually, re-create if we needed to. That's an elegant it. >> When did this all go down? Last year, this year? Can you take us through the timeline? >> Well, we first started thinking about Informatica, the first half of 2019, and we first signed a contract with them in June of 2019. But before we did anything before we installed it, before we started writing the code, we talked to people we talked to people depending on which area you're talking about between three and six months before we actually implemented. And because we had set up the process, the procedure, we understood how the data model needed to be put together, and we understood the expectations of the business, whether they wanted drill through reporting or they wanted top of the house KPIs or things like that. We talked to them and once we knew what that blueprint needed to look like, Informatica really helped by making it very easy for us to pull that data in, from variety of sources all in the same way or manage the same way, and build our data warehouse. We essentially built a data lake where we tried to get data as close to what it looks like in the source system as possible but accessible by the data engineers. And then we built certified data marts that were structured in a way that was more useful for the business. And all that really took less than a year, the actual hands to keyboard code took less than six months just because we had spent all the time preparing. >> And now we're in COVID, so take me through cause it's really kind of a change of landscape, BC before COVID, DC during COVID, and then AC which is coming after COVID, hopefully sooner than later, but this is the new reality. How has the impact changed your environment if any good, bad, did it change the trajectory? Was the solution in place before? Any benefits coming out of it? Because you're an interesting timetable here, you went in full planning, went into production, and then COVID hits March. How did you get to respond to that? What happened? >> Be careful what you wish for, and also, no good deed goes unpunished, right? So, because we had to quickly adapt our plan, and go from, weekly, monthly, typically monthly reporting into a daily environment, people wanted daily metrics every day. As you can imagine, during the chaos of COVID, some of those 50 metrics changed, or maybe weren't understood completely and needed to be adjusted so that they were more in line with the expectations of the stakeholders as well as match the spirit of the other metrics. And so, now going forward we have to be prepared that as requests come in, as needs come in, we might have new daily reporting, and that means we have to figure out where that's coming from, figure out who owns that information, figure out what transforms needs to be done, to make sure that it's represented correctly, and then figure out how to make sure that we get that same data pipeline flowing every single day. And that's a challenge, but luckily, we were able to do that, because we were able to, set that platform, right, we didn't have to guess about what we're going to use to pull the data. We don't have to guess about what kind of things were happening to name it, we don't guess about where we're going to put that data, and so we know how to record it. >> What's interesting, you mentioned DevOps earlier in the interview, you have that DevOps mindset, and now, the business has to react to the environment, which is the pandemic, and a lot of companies are actually re-factoring or re-setting and then have to put a re-invention plan to get on the business side and then have a growth strategy which might mean completely change a metrics, so being agile with the data, super valuable sounds like that's what happened. There are folks out there that may or may not be in that same situation, so how do you share your best practice for someone out there who's saying, I had an environment, I was in the middle of this or I need to rethink it, but because my stakeholders are saying we need to change or refactor our business, I got to make the data agile. What do you say to that? What do you say to your peers and your colleagues in the industry? >> DevOps is a good place to start, and I bring that up because DevOps is a critical function, a lot of companies like Paycor have dedicated people working on DevOps, but there are also other groups within the technical community that can have a hand in your success, right? There's database administrators, there's application development teams, there's enterprise level architects that are looking across, there's information security, we live in a world where privacy is becoming more and more important. And any one of those groups, if you're not aligned correctly, or if you haven't thought about it, really can cause your progress to slow down, and if you do work together with them, and you build the right operating model, then you can actually figure out a way to make your progress speed up, if you have alignment with those guys, and let's just say a privacy or personal identifying information, question comes up, if you've already thought about who needs to answer that, how you need to evaluate that, and ultimately, how can you move something like that in your production environment, you're way better off and it takes sometimes a matter of minutes, whereas in some cases, in some companies I've been at, it can actually take weeks or months to work through those kind of issues. >> I want to give you a personal take because one of the things that's historic time for the tech industry as it continues to try to do good at the same time, cause there's health issues involved, every company has a thing about the health of their employees and their customers being, in a sheltered in place. We're living in a kind of historic time where, this real agility in engineering around the architecture and thinking things through, because there is a new reality and that is going to be more work at home, which is edge of the network, more data coming out, maybe there's more sources. So, a new wave of challenges is coming in. How do you see that? If based on your experience over the years, you've seen many waves, what's going on? What's some of the learnings that you've seen? What observations can you share any insight from the perspective of where you're sitting? >> So from that perspective, data governance becomes a lot more important. Yeah, whereas in the past, when you were in an office, when we all used to work in an office, you could actually just walk to your neighbor or walk across to another department, you could have that conversation. Today that's, a little bit more challenging in terms of, you would have to figure out are they online? You'd chat them up? Do you use the collaboration tools? And because of that environment, because everybody is digital or online, now you have to think about, how do we make sure that the data governance manifests correctly? And so that means we have to think about data catalogs, how can I go to a definition quickly of what is this data set or metric mean, metadata itself? How do I understand what I'm even looking at? We think about things like, data lineage, how can I go into that and figure out, where do this data come from? How has it changed, if at all possible, who is using it? That needs to be something that's accessible to a broader community, and especially now, where you have collaboration tools, you have things like Slack and Microsoft Teams, you have things like Zoom and Skype, and you need to connect together but you're also online and you're on the network. So, if you can point to documents or better yet, companies like Informatica have tools, like glossaries and data catalogs and things like that where you can actually provide stakeholders, that makes it much easier. And that's much more important now, because you're getting thrown so much stuff on the computer, so much data, so much information, you really need to understand how to parse through that. >> I think it's a great opportunity for someone to come up with some really new collaboration tools around the use case, right? That's what we're talking about here, because you don't have the neighbor, you don't have someone you can just walk down the hall, or jump into a conference room and whiteboard something, you got to do it online. It's like what the heck. >> It really makes you think and when you come into data, right, so I like to think about data as the data pipeline or how it gets sourced, right, I think about the data model and how you need to make sure that it's something that can be consumed by people. But then there's really the business intelligence side or the data consumption side, and those tools are changing they changing quickly, and we need to think about how we use those to communicate the way people are communicating now. >> Chris, thanks for coming on sharing the insight. One final question, obviously as cloud and we've seen the past decade of big data, unstructured data, as the world starts to become more horizontally scalable where data needs to be accessed by a lot of different things, but yet be needed with specialism around machine learning and automation, you've got this new kind of thinking going on, that's kind of becoming more mainstream, which is, hey, I want the data to be everywhere, and I want it to be specialized for machine learning. I mean, sounds really easy, but it's not right? So, this is kind of the future architecture. Would you shade your perspective on that? And that's a segment cause I think this is teasing out some of the things like the tooling, the workforce involved, how is your architecture going to be laid out? This seems to be something that seems to be more of a conversation now than ever before. What's your thoughts? >> Well, you've triggered upon a real time discussion we're having at Paycor of how does the cloud how does the introduction of machine learning across the different parts of any kind of data chain or value chain or process, how does that change where our focus needs to be? And in this case, if we're talking specifically around data, and how do I analyze data, you really need to think about the foundational side, machine learning, artificial intelligence is meant to make our lives easier. It doesn't mean it's easy to implement. But it also means that, if you're giving up that control from a person to a machine, whether it's an algorithm, predictive model, whatever it might be, you really need to make sure that the underlying foundation of data is correct, right. And so, you change the focus, whereas we used to have, over the last couple decades, we had a lot of people thrown at reporting, somebody working on a report or with a business intelligence tool can interact with that and turn things around. If you give that to an artificial intelligence, your application, now whatever they're looking at, you're not going to have those natural connections like, oh, that doesn't look right. >> Yeah. >> And you need to make sure that you put your resources are there people on making sure that that data is as good as it possibly can be. >> That's a great point. You have this amazing fast reports that actually are wrong, right, you got to think foundational first, and it makes the humans more important. I mean, you don't lean on the machines, if they're augmenting the humans, this is a big point. Close us out with that thought. >> Well, you absolutely still need people it's just a matter of where does their focus change to, what can you now free them up from doing that was maybe tedious or maybe just busy work that was needed, but not super value added into much more higher value added type activities. >> Chris, great insight, thanks for sharing. I see you're on the cutting edge, Business Intelligence is changing, you guys been working hard, congratulations, stay safe, and looking forward to catching up another time. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much I enjoyed it. >> Chris Eldredge, Senior Director of Business Intelligence at Paycor, implementing some great data engineering, having the data warehousing, now it's scaling in the right place the right time, as businesses reacting to it, and this is what everyone's facing right now. How do you make data agile as the business evolves quickly, and excel on a highly accelerated basis? How do you become more agile to serve the business needs? This is theCUBE bringing you remote coverage from Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of VeeamON 2020. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Hi everybody, we're back. This is Dave Vellante, and you're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of VeeamON 2020. Veeam Online 2020. And Danny Allen is here, he's the CTO and Senior Vice President of Product Strategy and he's joined by Anton Gostev, who's the Senior Vice President of Product Management. Gentlemen, good to see you again. Wish we were face-to-face, but thanks for coming on, virtually. >> Thanks Dave for having us. >> Always love being on with you. Thank you. >> So Danny, I want to start with you. In your keynote, you talked to, about great quote by Satya Nadella. He said "We basically compress two years of digital transformation in two months." And so, I'm interested in what that meant for Veeam but also specifically, for your customers and how you help. >> Yeah, I think about that in two different ways. So digital transformation is obviously the word that he used. But I think of this a lot about being remote. So in two months, every organization that we're ourselves included, has gone from, in person operations going into the office doing things to enabling remote operations. And so, I'm working from home today, Anton's working from home today. We're all working from home today. And so remote operations is a big part of that. And it's not just working from home, it's how do I actually conduct my operations, my backup, my archiving, my hearing, all of those things remotely. It's actually changed the way organizations think about their data management. Not just operations from the sense of internal processes, but also external processes as well. But I think about this as remote offering. So organizations say, "How can I take where we are today "in the world and turn this into competitive advantage? "How can I take the services that I offered today, "and help my customers be more successful remotely?" And so, it has those two aspects to it remote operations, remote offerings. And of course, all driven by data which we backed. >> So Anton, you know there's a saying "It's better to be lucky than good." And I say, "It's best to be lucky and good." So Danny was talking about some of the external processes, a lot of those processes were unknown. And people kind of making them up as they went along, with things that we've never seen before. So, I wonder if we could talk about your product suite, and how well you were able to adapt to some of these unknown. >> Well it's more customers using our product in creative ways. But, one feedback we got most recently in our annual user survey is that like, one of the customers was using tape as the off-site backups. And they had a process where obviously someone had to physically come to the office, pick up the exporter tapes and put them on the truck and move them some off-site location. And so this basically, the process was completely broken with COVID because of lockdown. And in that particular country, it was a stricter on the ground than in most and they were physically unable to basically leave the home. So they basically looked at, Luckily they upgraded already to version 10. And they looked at what version 10 has to offer. And then we're able to switch from using tape to fully automating this off-site backup and going directly to the public cloud to object storage. So, they still have the same off-site backups that, effectively air-gapped because of the first house you provide in virtual time for mutable backups. As soon as they created that they automatically ship to object storage, completely replacing this manual off-site process. So I don't know how long it will take them, if not COVID, to move to this process. Now they love it because it's so much better than what they did before. That's amazing. >> Yeah I bet, there's no doubt. That's interesting, that's an interesting use case. Do you see, others use cases that popped up. Again, I was saying that these processes were new. I mean, and I'm interested in from a product standpoint, how you guys were able to adapt to that. >> Well, another use case that seems to be on the rise is that the ability for customers to deploy the new machines to procure new hardware is severely limited now. Not only their supply chain issues, but also again, bring something into your data center. You have to physically be there and collaborate with other workers and doing installing the, whatever new hardware you purchase. So, we see a significant pick up of the functionality where that, we had in the product for a while, which we called direct resorts to cloud. So we support taking any backup, physical virtual machine. And restoring directory into cloud machine. So we see really the big uptick of migration, maybe a lot of migrations, maybe, not necessarily permanent migrations, but when people want to basically this, some of the applications start to struggle on their sources and they're unable to update the underlying hardware. So what they do is that they schedule the downtime, and then migrate, restore that latest backup into the cloud and continue using the machine in the cloud on much more powerful hardware. That's a lifesaver for them obviously in this situation. >> Yeah so the cloud, Danny is becoming a linchpin of these new models. In your keynote you talked about your vision. And it's interesting to note, I mean, VeeamON, last year, you actually talked about, what I call getting back to the basic of, backup, you kind of embrace backup, where a lot of the new entrants are like, "No no backup's, just one small part, it's data management." And, so I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But the vision you laid out was, backup and cloud data management. Maybe you could, unpack that a little bit. >> Yeah, the way I think about this is step one, in every infrastructure, it doesn't matter whether you're talking about on-prem or in the cloud. Step one is, to protect your data. So this is ingesting the data, whether be backup, whether it be replication, whether it be, long term retention. We have to do that, not only do we have to do that, but as you go to new cycles of infrastructure, it happens all over again. So, we backed up physical first and then virtual, and then we did, cloud and in some ways, containers we're going towards, we're not going backwards but people who are running containers on-prem so we always go back to the starting point of protect the data. And then of course, after you protect it then you, want to effectively begin to manage it. And that's exactly what Anton said. How do you automate the operational procedures to be able to make this part of the DNA of the organization and so, it doesn't matter whether it's on-prem or whether it's in the cloud, that protection of data and then the effective management and integration with existing processes, is fundamental for every infrastructure and will continue to be so into the future, including the cloud. And it's only then when you have this effective protection and management of it, can you begin to unleash the power of data, as you look out into the future, because you can reuse the data for additional purposes, you can move it to the optimal location, but we always start with protection and management of the data. >> So Anton, I want to come back to you on this notion of cloud being a portion of that, when you talk about security people say you layer, how should we think about the cloud? Is it a another layer of protection? And then Danny just said, "It doesn't really matter whether it's on-prem "or in the cloud, it well, it doesn't matter "if you can ensure the same experience." If it's a totally different experience well then it's problematic though. I wonder if you could address, both the layers. Is cloud just another layer and is the management of that, actually, how do you make it, quote, unquote, "Seamless"? I know it's an overused word, but from a product name? >> Well, for larger customers, it's not necessarily a new challenge, because it's rare when the customer had a single data center. And they had this challenge for always. How do I manage my multiple data centers with a single pane of glass? And, I will say public cloud does not necessarily mean that some new perspective in that sense. Yeah, maybe it even makes it easier because you no longer have to manage the physical aspect, the most important aspect of security, which is physical security. So someone else manages it for you and probably much better than most companies could ever afford. In terms of security answer, so then data center. But as far as networking security and how those multiple data centers interact with each other, that's essentially not a new challenge. It is a new challenge for smaller customers for SMBs that are just starting. So they have their own small data center, small world and now they are starting to move some workloads into the cloud. And I would say the biggest problem there is networking and VeeamON, sure provides some free tools to call Veeam PN to make it easier for them to make this step of, securing the networking aspect of public cloud and the private property also that they are in now as workloads move to the cloud, but also keeping some workloads on-prem. >> The other piece of cloud Danny, is SaaS. You weren't the first you were one of the first to offer SaaS back up particularly for Office 365. And a lot of people just, I think, rely on the SaaS vendor, "Hey, they've got me covered. "They've got me backed up", and maybe they do have them backed up, but they might not have them recovered. How is that market shaping up? What are the trends that you're seeing there? >> Well, you're absolutely right Dave. That the, focus here is not just on back up, but on recovery, and it's one of the things that Veeam is known for we don't just do the backup, but we have an Explorer for Exchange , an Explorer for SharePoint, an Explorer for OneDrive. You saw on stage today we demoed the Explorer for Microsoft Teams. So, it's not just about protecting the data, but getting back the specific element of data that you need for operations. And that is critically important. And our customers expect to need that. If you're depending on the SaaS vendor themselves to do that, and I won't, be derogatory or specific about any SaaS vendor, but what they'll often do is, take the entire data set from seven days ago, we'll say, and merge it back into the current data set. And that just results in, a complete chaos of your inbox, if that's what they're merging together. So having specific granularity to pull back that data, exactly the data you need when you need it, is critical. And that's why we're adding it, and the focus on Microsoft Teams now obviously, is because, as we have more intellectual property, in collaboration tools for remote operations, exactly what we're doing now, that only becomes more critical for the business. So, when you think about SaaS for backup, but we also think about it for recovery. And one thing that I'll credit Anton and the product management team for, we build all of this in-house, We don't give this to a third party to build it on our behalf because you need it to work and not only need it to work, but need it to work well, that completely integrated with the underlying cloud data management platform. >> So Anton, I wonder if I could ask you about that. So, from a recovery standpoint, there's one thing, is Dan was saying, you've got to have the granularity, you've got to be able to have a really relatively simple way to recover. But because it's the cloud, there's, latency involved and how are you from a product standpoint, dealing with, making that recovery as consistent and predictable and reliable as you have for a decade on-prem. >> So you mean recovery in the cloud or back to on-prem? >> Yeah, so, recovery from data that lives in the cloud. >> Okay. So basically, the most important feature of any cloud is the price of whatever you do. So, whenever we design anything, we always look at the costs even more than anything else. But, it in turn always translates into better performance as well. To give you example, without functionality where we can take the on-prem backup and make a copy in the public object storage for disaster recovery purposes, so that for example, when a hacker or ransomware wipes out your, entire data center, you have those backups in the cloud, and you can restore from them. So when you perform the restore from cloud backups, we are actually smart enough to understand that, we need to pull that and this in that block from the cloud backup, but many of those blocks actually shared with backups in another machines that are in your own prem backup repository. So we do this on the fly analysis, and we say, instead of pulling the 10 terabyte of the entire backup from the cloud, we can actually pull only 100 gigabytes off unique blocks. And the rest of the blocks we can take from on-prem repositories that have still survived the disaster. So, not only reduces the cost 20 times or whatever. The performance, obviously, of restoring from on-prem data versus pulling everything from the cloud through the internet links is dramatic. So again, we started from the cost, how do we reduce the cost of restore, because, that's where cloud vendors quote, unquote, "Get you." But in the end, it resulted in much better performance as well. >> Excellent, Anton as well in your keynote, you talked about the Veeam availability suite, gave a little sneak preview. You talked about continuous data protection. Cloud Tier, NAS recovery, which is oftentimes very challenging. What should we take away from that sneak peek? >> Three main directions basically, The first is Veeam CGP is we keep investing a lot in on-prem, data Protection, disaster recovery. VMware is a clear leader of on-prem virtualization. So, we keep building these, new ways to protect your web VMware with lower RPOs and RTOs that were never possible before with the classic snapshotting technologies. So that's one thing we keep investing on-prem. Second thing, we do major investments in the cloud in object storage specifically, from that regards, again, put a couple keynote in Google Cloud support. And we're adding the ability to work with coldest tier of object storage, which is Amazon Glacier Deep Archive or Microsoft Azure Blob Storage, archive tier. So that's the second big area of investment. And third, instant recovery Veaam has always been extremely well known for its instant recovery capabilities. And this race is going to be the biggest in terms of new instant recovery capabilities, that were introduced as many as three new major companies with capabilities there. (mumbles) >> So, Danny, I wonder if I could ask you. I'm interested in how you go from product strategy to actual product management and bring things to market. I mean, in the early days, Veeam. Very, very specific to virtualization. That of course, with the Bare-metal, you got a number of permutations and product capabilities. How do you guys work together in terms of assessing the market potential, the degree of difficulty, prioritizing, how does that all come to your customer value? >> Well, first of all, Anton and I, spend a lot of time together on the phone and collaborating just on a weekly basis about where we're going, what we're going to do. I always say there's four directions that we look at for the product strategy and what we're building. You look behind you, you have a, we have 375,000 customers and so those are the tail winds that are pushing you forward. We talked to them on all segments. What is it that you want? I say we look left and right, the left who are alliances. We have a rich ecosystem of partners and channel that we look to collect feedback from. Look right, we look out at the competitors in this space, what are they doing to make sure that we're not missing anything that we should be including and then look forward. Big focus of Veeam has always been not just creating check boxes and making sure that we have the required features but innovation. And you saw that on stage today when Anton was showing the NAS Instant Recovery in the database instant recovery and the capabilities that we have, we have a big focus on, not just checking a box but actually doing things better and differently than everyone else in the industry and that serve to see incredibly well. >> So I love that framework. But so now when you think about this pandemic, you look behind your customers have obviously been affected, your partners have been affected. Let's put your competitors to the side for a minute, we'll see how they respond. But then looking forward, future, as I've said many times, we're not just going back to 2019. We're new decade and really digital transformation is becoming real, for real this time around. So as you think about the pandemic and looking at those four dimensions, what initial conclusions are you drawing? >> Well, the first one would be that that Veeam is well positioned to win, continue to win and to win into the future. And the reason for that I would argue, is that we're software defined. Our whole model is based on being simple to use obviously, but software defined and because of the pandemic, as Anton said, can't go into the office anymore to switch your tapes from one system to another. And so being software defined set this apart positions as well for the future. And so make it simple, make it flexible. And ultimately, what our customers care about is the reliability of this end to the credit of research and development and Anton theme is, "We have product that as everyone says, it just worked". >> So Anton I wonder if I could ask you kind of a similar question. How has the pandemic affected your thinking along those dimensions and maybe some of your initial thinking on changes that you'll implement? >> Yes, sorry I wanted to add exactly on that. I will say that pandemic accelerated our vision becoming the reality. Basically, the vision we had and, I said a few years ago, one day that Veeam will become the biggest storage vendor without selling a single storage box. And this is just becoming the reality. We support a number of object storage providers today. Only a few of them actually track the consumption that is generated by different vendors. And just for those few who do track that and report numbers to us. We are already managing over hundreds of petabytes of data in the cloud. And we only just started a couple of years ago with object storage support. So that's the power of software defined. we don't need to sell you any storage to be eventually the biggest storage player on the market. And pandemic is clear accelerated that in the last three months we see the adoption, it was already like a hockey stick, but it's accelerating further. Because of the issues customers are facing today. Unable to actually physically go back to the office, do this backup handling the way they normally do it. >> Well guys, it's been really fun the last decade watching the ascendancy of Veeam, we've boarded on it and talked about it a lot. And as you guys have both said things have been accelerated. It's actually very exciting to see a company with, rich legacy, but also, very competitive with some of the new products and new companies that are hitting the market. So, congratulations, I know you've got a lot more to do here. You guys have been, for a private company, pretty transparent, more transparent than most and I have to say as an analyst, we appreciate that and, appreciate the partnership with theCUBE. So thanks very much for coming on. >> Thank you, Dave. Always a pleasure. >> Thanks Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE in our coverage of VeeamON 2020. Veeam Online. Keep it right there, I'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of VeeamON 2020. Brought to you by Veeam. Everybody, we're back. This is Dave Vellante, and you're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of VeeamON 2020. Veeam Online 2020. And Danny Allen is here, he's the CTO and Senior Vice President of Product Strategy and he's joined by Anton Gostev, who's the Senior Vice President of Product Management. Gentlemen, good to see you again. Wish we were face-to-face, but thanks for coming on, virtually. >> Thanks Dave for having us. >> Always love being on with you. Thank you. >> So Danny, I want to start with you. In your keynote, you talked to, about great quote by Satya Nadella. He said "We basically compress two years of digital transformation in two months." And so, I'm interested in what that meant for Veeam but also specifically, for your customers and how you help. >> Yeah, I think about that in two different ways. So digital transformation is obviously the word that he used. But I think of this a lot about being remote. So in two months, every organization that we're ourselves included, has gone from, in person operations going into the office doing things to enabling remote operations. And so, I'm working from home today, Anton's working from home today. We're all working from home today. And so remote operations is a big part of that. And it's not just working from home, it's how do I actually conduct my operations, my backup, my archiving, my hearing, all of those things remotely. It's actually changed the way organizations think about their data management. Not just operations from the sense of internal processes, but also external processes as well. But I think about this as remote offering. So organizations say, "How can I take where we are today "in the world and turn this into competitive advantage? "How can I take the services that I offered today, "and help my customers be more successful remotely?" And so, it has those two aspects to it remote operations, remote offerings. And of course, all driven by data which we backed. >> So Anton, you know there's a saying "It's better to be lucky than good." And I say, "It's best to be lucky and good." So Danny was talking about some of the external processes, a lot of those processes were unknown. And people kind of making them up as they went along, with things that we've never seen before. So, I wonder if we could talk about your product suite, and how well you were able to adapt to some of these unknown. >> Well it's more customers using our product in creative ways. But, one feedback we got most recently in our annual user survey is that like, one of the customers was using tape as the off-site backups. And they had a process where obviously someone had to physically come to the office, pick up the exporter tapes and put them on the truck and move them some off-site location. And so this basically, the process was completely broken with COVID because of lockdown. And in that particular country, it was a stricter on the ground than in most and they were physically unable to basically leave the home. So they basically looked at, Luckily they upgraded already to version 10. And they looked at what version 10 has to offer. And then we're able to switch from using tape to fully automating this off-site backup and going directly to the public cloud to object storage. So, they still have the same off-site backups that, effectively air-gapped because of the first house you provide in virtual time for mutable backups. As soon as they created that they automatically ship to object storage, completely replacing this manual off-site process. So I don't know how long it will take them, if not COVID, to move to this process. Now they love it because it's so much better than what they did before. That's amazing. >> Yeah I bet, there's no doubt. That's interesting, that's an interesting use case. Do you see, others use cases that popped up. Again, I was saying that these processes were new. I mean, and I'm interested in from a product standpoint, how you guys were able to adapt to that. >> Well, another use case that seems to be on the rise is that the ability for customers to deploy the new machines to procure new hardware is severely limited now. Not only their supply chain issues, but also again, bring something into your data center. You have to physically be there and collaborate with other workers and doing installing the, whatever new hardware you purchase. So, we see a significant pick up of the functionality where that, we had in the product for a while, which we called direct resorts to cloud. So we support taking any backup, physical virtual machine. And restoring directory into cloud machine. So we see really the big uptick of migration, maybe a lot of migrations, maybe, not necessarily permanent migrations, but when people want to basically this, some of the applications start to struggle on their sources and they're unable to update the underlying hardware. So what they do is that they schedule the downtime, and then migrate, restore that latest backup into the cloud and continue using the machine in the cloud on much more powerful hardware. That's a lifesaver for them obviously in this situation. >> Yeah so the cloud, Danny is becoming a linchpin of these new models. In your keynote you talked about your vision. And it's interesting to note, I mean, VeeamON, last year, you actually talked about, what I call getting back to the basic of, backup, you kind of embrace backup, where a lot of the new entrants are like, "No no backup's, just one small part, it's data management." And, so I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But the vision you laid out was, backup and cloud data management. Maybe you could, unpack that a little bit. >> Yeah, the way I think about this is step one, in every infrastructure, it doesn't matter whether you're talking about on-prem or in the cloud. Step one is, to protect your data. So this is ingesting the data, whether be backup, whether it be replication, whether it be, long term retention. We have to do that, not only do we have to do that, but as you go to new cycles of infrastructure, it happens all over again. So, we backed up physical first and then virtual, and then we did, cloud and in some ways, containers we're going towards, we're not going backwards but people who are running containers on-prem so we always go back to the starting point of protect the data. And then of course, after you protect it then you, want to effectively begin to manage it. And that's exactly what Anton said. How do you automate the operational procedures to be able to make this part of the DNA of the organization and so, it doesn't matter whether it's on-prem or whether it's in the cloud, that protection of data and then the effective management and integration with existing processes, is fundamental for every infrastructure and will continue to be so into the future, including the cloud. And it's only then when you have this effective protection and management of it, can you begin to unleash the power of data, as you look out into the future, because you can reuse the data for additional purposes, you can move it to the optimal location, but we always start with protection and management of the data. >> So Anton, I want to come back to you on this notion of cloud being a portion of that, when you talk about security people say you layer, how should we think about the cloud? Is it a another layer of protection? And then Danny just said, "It doesn't really matter whether it's on-prem "or in the cloud, it well, it doesn't matter "if you can ensure the same experience." If it's a totally different experience well then it's problematic though. I wonder if you could address, both the layers. Is cloud just another layer and is the management of that, actually, how do you make it, quote, unquote, "Seamless"? I know it's an overused word, but from a product name? >> Well, for larger customers, it's not necessarily a new challenge, because it's rare when the customer had a single data center. And they had this challenge for always. How do I manage my multiple data centers with a single pane of glass? And, I will say public cloud does not necessarily mean that some new perspective in that sense. Yeah, maybe it even makes it easier because you no longer have to manage the physical aspect, the most important aspect of security, which is physical security. So someone else manages it for you and probably much better than most companies could ever afford. In terms of security answer, so then data center. But as far as networking security and how those multiple data centers interact with each other, that's essentially not a new challenge. It is a new challenge for smaller customers for SMBs that are just starting. So they have their own small data center, small world and now they are starting to move some workloads into the cloud. And I would say the biggest problem there is networking and VeeamON, sure provides some free tools to call Veeam PN to make it easier for them to make this step of, securing the networking aspect of public cloud and the private property also that they are in now as workloads move to the cloud, but also keeping some workloads on-prem. >> The other piece of cloud Danny, is SaaS. You weren't the first you were one of the first to offer SaaS back up particularly for Office 365. And a lot of people just, I think, rely on the SaaS vendor, "Hey, they've got me covered. "They've got me backed up", and maybe they do have them backed up, but they might not have them recovered. How is that market shaping up? What are the trends that you're seeing there? >> Well, you're absolutely right Dave. That the, focus here is not just on back up, but on recovery, and it's one of the things that Veeam is known for we don't just do the backup, but we have an Explorer for Exchange , an Explorer for SharePoint, an Explorer for OneDrive. You saw on stage today we demoed the Explorer for Microsoft Teams. So, it's not just about protecting the data, but getting back the specific element of data that you need for operations. And that is critically important. And our customers expect to need that. If you're depending on the SaaS vendor themselves to do that, and I won't, be derogatory or specific about any SaaS vendor, but what they'll often do is, take the entire data set from seven days ago, we'll say, and merge it back into the current data set. And that just results in, a complete chaos of your inbox, if that's what they're merging together. So having specific granularity to pull back that data, exactly the data you need when you need it, is critical. And that's why we're adding it, and the focus on Microsoft Teams now obviously, is because, as we have more intellectual property, in collaboration tools for remote operations, exactly what we're doing now, that only becomes more critical for the business. So, when you think about SaaS for backup, but we also think about it for recovery. And one thing that I'll credit Anton and the product management team for, we build all of this in-house, We don't give this to a third party to build it on our behalf because you need it to work and not only need it to work, but need it to work well, that completely integrated with the underlying cloud data management platform. >> So Anton, I wonder if I could ask you about that. So, from a recovery standpoint, there's one thing, is Dan was saying, you've got to have the granularity, you've got to be able to have a really relatively simple way to recover. But because it's the cloud, there's, latency involved and how are you from a product standpoint, dealing with, making that recovery as consistent and predictable and reliable as you have for a decade on-prem. >> So you mean recovery in the cloud or back to on-prem? >> Yeah, so, recovery from data that lives in the cloud. >> Okay. So basically, the most important feature of any cloud is the price of whatever you do. So, whenever we design anything, we always look at the costs even more than anything else. But, it in turn always translates into better performance as well. To give you example, without functionality where we can take the on-prem backup and make a copy in the public object storage for disaster recovery purposes, so that for example, when a hacker or ransomware wipes out your, entire data center, you have those backups in the cloud, and you can restore from them. So when you perform the restore from cloud backups, we are actually smart enough to understand that, we need to pull that and this in that block from the cloud backup, but many of those blocks actually shared with backups in another machines that are in your own prem backup repository. So we do this on the fly analysis, and we say, instead of pulling the 10 terabyte of the entire backup from the cloud, we can actually pull only 100 gigabytes off unique blocks. And the rest of the blocks we can take from on-prem repositories that have still survived the disaster. So, not only reduces the cost 20 times or whatever. The performance, obviously, of restoring from on-prem data versus pulling everything from the cloud through the internet links is dramatic. So again, we started from the cost, how do we reduce the cost of restore, because, that's where cloud vendors quote, unquote, "Get you." But in the end, it resulted in much better performance as well. >> Excellent, Anton as well in your keynote, you talked about the Veeam availability suite, gave a little sneak preview. You talked about continuous data protection. Cloud Tier, NAS recovery, which is oftentimes very challenging. What should we take away from that sneak peek? >> Three main directions basically, The first is Veeam CGP is we keep investing a lot in on-prem, data Protection, disaster recovery. VMware is a clear leader of on-prem virtualization. So, we keep building these, new ways to protect your web VMware with lower RPOs and RTOs that were never possible before with the classic snapshotting technologies. So that's one thing we keep investing on-prem. Second thing, we do major investments in the cloud in object storage specifically, from that regards, again, put a couple keynote in Google Cloud support. And we're adding the ability to work with coldest tier of object storage, which is Amazon Glacier Deep Archive or Microsoft Azure Blob Storage, archive tier. So that's the second big area of investment. And third, instant recovery Veaam has always been extremely well known for its instant recovery capabilities. And this race is going to be the biggest in terms of new instant recovery capabilities, that were introduced as many as three new major companies with capabilities there. (mumbles) >> So, Danny, I wonder if I could ask you. I'm interested in how you go from product strategy to actual product management and bring things to market. I mean, in the early days, Veeam. Very, very specific to virtualization. That of course, with the Bare-metal, you got a number of permutations and product capabilities. How do you guys work together in terms of assessing the market potential, the degree of difficulty, prioritizing, how does that all come to your customer value? >> Well, first of all, Anton and I, spend a lot of time together on the phone and collaborating just on a weekly basis about where we're going, what we're going to do. I always say there's four directions that we look at for the product strategy and what we're building. You look behind you, you have a, we have 375,000 customers and so those are the tail winds that are pushing you forward. We talked to them on all segments. What is it that you want? I say we look left and right, the left who are alliances. We have a rich ecosystem of partners and channel that we look to collect feedback from. Look right, we look out at the competitors in this space, what are they doing to make sure that we're not missing anything that we should be including and then look forward. Big focus of Veeam has always been not just creating check boxes and making sure that we have the required features but innovation. And you saw that on stage today when Anton was showing the NAS Instant Recovery in the database instant recovery and the capabilities that we have, we have a big focus on, not just checking a box but actually doing things better and differently than everyone else in the industry and that serve to see incredibly well. >> So I love that framework. But so now when you think about this pandemic, you look behind your customers have obviously been affected, your partners have been affected. Let's put your competitors to the side for a minute, we'll see how they respond. But then looking forward, future, as I've said many times, we're not just going back to 2019. We're new decade and really digital transformation is becoming real, for real this time around. So as you think about the pandemic and looking at those four dimensions, what initial conclusions are you drawing? >> Well, the first one would be that that Veeam is well positioned to win, continue to win and to win into the future. And the reason for that I would argue, is that we're software defined. Our whole model is based on being simple to use obviously, but software defined and because of the pandemic, as Anton said, can't go into the office anymore to switch your tapes from one system to another. And so being software defined set this apart positions as well for the future. And so make it simple, make it flexible. And ultimately, what our customers care about is the reliability of this end to the credit of research and development and Anton theme is, "We have product that as everyone says, it just worked". >> So Anton I wonder if I could ask you kind of a similar question. How has the pandemic affected your thinking along those dimensions and maybe some of your initial thinking on changes that you'll implement? >> Yes, sorry I wanted to add exactly on that. I will say that pandemic accelerated our vision becoming the reality. Basically, the vision we had and, I said a few years ago, one day that Veeam will become the biggest storage vendor without selling a single storage box. And this is just becoming the reality. We support a number of object storage providers today. Only a few of them actually track the consumption that is generated by different vendors. And just for those few who do track that and report numbers to us. We are already managing over hundreds of petabytes of data in the cloud. And we only just started a couple of years ago with object storage support. So that's the power of software defined. we don't need to sell you any storage to be eventually the biggest storage player on the market. And pandemic is clear accelerated that in the last three months we see the adoption, it was already like a hockey stick, but it's accelerating further. Because of the issues customers are facing today. Unable to actually physically go back to the office, do this backup handling the way they normally do it. >> Well guys, it's been really fun the last decade watching the ascendancy of Veeam, we've boarded on it and talked about it a lot. And as you guys have both said things have been accelerated. It's actually very exciting to see a company with, rich legacy, but also, very competitive with some of the new products and new companies that are hitting the market. So, congratulations, I know you've got a lot more to do here. You guys have been, for a private company, pretty transparent, more transparent than most and I have to say as an analyst, we appreciate that and, appreciate the partnership with theCUBE. So thanks very much for coming on. >> Thank you, Dave. Always a pleasure. >> Thanks Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE in our coverage of VeeamON 2020. Veeam Online. Keep it right there, I'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this week's CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to bring in Sagar Kadakia who's the Director of Research at ETR. He's been away for the last couple of weeks, he's really digging into the latest data set, ETR of course it was in it's quiet period. And today, what we want to do is give you three of the macro takeaways from that last two-week analysis and drill into to some of the sectors. So Sagar, that's for coming on, great to see you again. Let's get right into it. >> Let's do it, thanks for having me. >> You've been crazy busy, we started the year at a plus 4%, consensus IT spend. We reported for several weeks and ended up at minus 4%. We're now at minus 5%, after you've gone through and done some additional analysis. So bring us up to date the IT spend projection. >> Yeah no problem, and that's our first macro takeaway, is we're seeing declines in IT budget, a decline of 5%. And remember, coming into the year as you mentioned, consensus assessments were right around that 4% number. And so we've seen this kind of 900 basis point shift downward so that's kind of where we are today, if we kind of look at that chart that we've been tracking for the last few weeks. And then for those that have seen this chart before, you've kind of seen where we've been kind of going the last two, three weeks. And for those that haven't seen the chart, I'll kind of go through it now. So, as many of you know, kind of launched its COVID-19 drill down survey to measure the impact that the virus was going to have on total spend this year and so we kind of launched that drill down on March 11th and so if you kind of look at that blue line there, what you're looking at, is we asked individuals, estimate what percentage impact you think the virus is going to have on your budget versus your original expectations. And since we launched this on March 11th, on that blue line that you're looking at, we got a lot of positivity in the beginning. And so if you look at the blue line all the way through, you follow that, you get about zero percent growth. Now the issue is, as I just mentioned is, we launched on the 11th, and there wasn't a tremendous amount of information available as to how severe the virus was, and so we kind of did this in Venn analysis and we talked about this last time, on the last breaking analysis, where it's probably more appropriate to look at a start date closer to 3/17 or 3/23 when the market really understood the severity of COVID-19. NYC became the epicenter. And if we look at just those customers who indicated a spend impact after that date, you can see it's coming out to about four or 5% decline. And so that's kind of one of our big macro takeaways, and the other thing on this chart, kind of focus on is, and even though we're not looking at, some of the vendors here, is when you think about declines, it's not across the full IT stack, and I think that's really important for the audience to understand. We're seeing focused declines among on-prem legacy pure plays. You're still seeing CIO spend on cloud and SaaS. In fact, they're doubling down there. And so when you kind of think about how things are going to shape up the next three, six, nine months, there's going to be a lot of bifurcation. And we think cloud and SaaS are going to be well positioned with a lot of legacy and on-prem. That's where you're going to see a majority of those declines that you're seeing here kind of play out. >> I've made the case, statement many times that cloud is good, or downturns have been to cloud. You saw this in 2008, 2009 with the shift from CapEx to OpEx. We came out of 2009 into the decade of cloud. And very clearly we're seeing some similar things here as people shift to that work-from-home. We had one CIO on the recent Venns that I want to just delete my data centers. Unfortunately, he's not going to be able to do that overnight, but I think, as Eric Bradley pointed out last week, a lot of customers who weren't even thinking about cloud, or really were sort of reticent to go all in, really have flipped and changed their tune. Let's talk about some of the industries that are impacted by this COVID-19 and the stay-at-home. This slide really kind of underscores that. Why don't you take us through it? >> Yeah, no problem. So on the last slide, you were looking at kind of our COVID-19 drill-down study. On this slide, what we're now going to focus on is a study that we did in tandem, which is called our Technology Spending Intentions Survey. And specifically we conducted this in April. What we did is we asked CIOs to update their 2020 spending intentions versus how they spent in '19. So this survey was originally posed in January and then we're essentially asking for a three-month update now. So we're trying to get an understanding of how much has changed in the last three months because of COVID-19. And when we asked these CIOs, we give them essentially a list of 400 vendors. And they're able to then indicate which ones they're flattening on, decreasing on, maybe accelerating on. And so what you're looking at here is we've aggregated that data by industry. And if you look at the X-axis here, you're going to look at spend intensity versus three months ago. And the Y-axis will be spend intensity versus a year ago. And so what you're seeing here is over the last three months, look at how much verticals, like retail/consumer, airlines, delivery services, financials/insurance, IT/TelCo, services/consulting. Those have really seen some of the largest pullbacks in spend versus three months ago. And those are also some of the industries that have indicated the largest pullback in demand from consumers and businesses. And so this is where we think a lot of the declines that we showed you earlier really kind of focus on some of these verticals. And that's how, when you kind of think about which organization are going to be hurt, which ones might see the most impact, three, six months from now, this is a really good chart to view. >> Yeah, a couple of points I would make on this data. Retail and consumer, again, even that's bifurcated. Obviously the physical stores getting crushed. You see Amazon now trading at all-time highs. Target announced today, I think they said a 200% increase in online shopping, which, of course, is fulfilled. 85% of Target's demand is fulfilled by their stores. So that's kind of mixed. You're going to see an accelerated move toward digital transformation there. Airlines, it's really unclear what's going to happen there. IT/TelCo, on one of the last Venns we talked about MPLS, people trying to get off of MPLS, really moving toward a SD-WAN. Healthcare, pharma, healthcare doesn't have time to do anything right now. No time to take a breather. Financials is interesting. I mean, they're down right now, but they still have a lot of cash. Liquidity is good. And then energy, I mean oil, I've just never seen anything like it. We're concerned obviously about credit risk there and oil companies being able to pay off their debts. So it's really not a pretty picture, is it? >> Yeah, and if focus on energy, even though you're not seeing a huge pullback versus three months ago in energy, it's really important to understand when we did this survey in January, energy was all the way on the left side of that chart. And so it already looked really bad coming into the year. So it got worse. But because of the severity versus last year, like they're just not seeing that much more of a negative impact now. This was before, this survey closed before everything happened the last few days with oil prices. So it is very possible that that data is going to get worse. And we'll know if it gets really-- >> We're not laughing a lot these days, but if you haven't filled up your car in a while, I mean it's, Anyway, let's go into the security piece. We talked about, you guys were really the first to report this work-from-home pivot. Others have sort of more recently coming to that conclusion. And it wasn't just Zoom and WebEx and video collaboration, Teams, et cetera. It really was all kinds of infrastructure, including security. So we can bring up the next chart, guys. Let's sort of get into this. We're going to talk about the sector and some of the vendors in here. Let's go. >> Yeah, no problem, so if we kind of step away from the macro and really start getting into the sectors and vendors in here. If we start with security, what we're really saying is that, look, a remote workforce is really kind of revealing best-in-breed. And we think it's going to lead to the permanent changes. So what you're looking at here is these are the net scores for each individual vendor currently versus three months ago as well as a year ago levels. The yellow bars will be what's currently. And the way to think about net score is just kind of spend intensity. And so the higher your net score, the more spend intensity, the more spend velocity you're seeing from enterprise customers. And what we're really seeing here, if you kind of look at the vendors on the left, you're seeing a lot of acceleration among secure web gateway end point, mobile security, cloud SaaS application security, identity, and these make sense. As we mentioned earlier, as you really accelerate your cloud and SaaS spend, you're going to want to use vendors that best protect those areas. And so if you look to the left here, Okta and Zscaler, Cloudflare, CrowdStrike, some of these really look best positioned moving forward. Palo Alto looks good longer term. Splunk at this point also looked good longer term. And then the other thing to kind of hit on here is the other side in terms of, we talked about the bifurcation that we expect. We're seeing significant declines in net scores among a lot of these legacy vendors. Check points come down quite a bit. Juniper, Trend Micro, Broadcom, Barracuda Networks, SonicWALL, and so you can see the disparity here. It's pretty clear on the image. But we think there's some pretty clear winners and losers here. And I think we may see permanent changes moving forward. >> Yeah, so Twistlock, of course, is now owned by Palo Alto. CrowdStrike, they're a hot company in the sector. Okta, I have the Chief Product Officer coming on shortly here for part of my CXO series. We've talked about Palo Alto and how they sort of fell behind a little bit in the cloud. But you talk to customers, they really see Palo Alto as in the mix. Zscaler came up in the Venn as, to your point, securing gateways and doing a really good job in that space. And so I think the fragmentation, the fragmentation probably continues, but there's also bifurcation, as you pointed out. Let's talk about cloud. As you've said and I said, downturns have been good to cloud. People are obviously looking more toward cloud, whether it's SaaS or cloud type of consumption. Let's bring up the next slide, which looks at the big three, Azure, AWS, and GCP. First of all, all three have very strong net scores. Up in the 60% plus range. But you have Azure pulling away. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, that's right, and we've kind of been using this analogy of kind of a horse race. Just kind of as context, coming into January you see really GCP accelerating. And so one of the things we said in January was it's becoming more of a three-horse race. Even though GCP doesn't have the same type of market share as the other two, you are seeing the spend intensity increase. And now what you're seeing is Azure pulling away a little bit because of, we think, COVID-19. When you look at Azure's data set, it really looks robust and healthy across all verticals, across most regions. And that is what you're seeing here where it's continuing to kind of accelerate. It looks good. AWS, GCP, it also looks good here, but you're not seeing the same uniform strength. There's a couple verticals for AWS where we're seeing a little bit of a pullback in spend, like retail and industrials. For GCP we're seeing a pullback in mid-size and small enterprises. So that's causing a couple of cracks here and there. Even though they look overall healthy, but we did want to kind of indicate here on cloud where, look one vendor looks like they're pulling away when it comes to spend velocity. >> It's going to be interesting to see. I mean, we reported on the sort of deltas between Azure and AWS and the cloud, the quality of the cloud. I think we're going to carefully watch the quarterly reports. You always have to kind of squint through the Azure numbers to see what's in there. But there's no question that Microsoft, across the board, is really very, very strong. All right, let's talk about collaboration, productivity, video conferencing. I mean, we've certainly seen upticks. But as shown on this slide, you guys, if you could bring the next slide up. You know, it's not all rosy. Talk about this a little bit. >> Yeah, I think, look, there's been a lot of coverage around which vendors look best. And so I kind of want to take the opposite view on this chart for the audience, and say hey look, which vendors are not benefiting? And this is kind of like a hodgepodge sector of productivity and collaboration, video conferencing. What we're saying is it's now of never, so to speak. And you're looking at replacement rates. So if you look at, if you see something on this chart that says 20% replacement, that means one out of five customers indicated for that vendor in our survey, indicated a replacement for them, which is not good. And so you're seeing vendors here like Dropbox, Box and Slack having elevated or accelerating replacement levels. And these vendors, pitch themselves as collaboration tools. And if they're not doing well now and they're seeing elevated replacements, especially as everyone is working from home, that doesn't bode well for the future. >> I think people who know me know I'm not a huge fan of Box and Slack. They drive me crazy. And so this is interesting to see. I mean, we're a Zoom shop, so obviously you Zoom, you like Zoom. I had my first experience very recently with Microsoft teams. I was quite impressed. I thought it was easy to use. Skype, hell was just terrible. And so, much, much improved. Very interesting cut on that one. So again, it's a bifurcated story. Let's drill into teams a little bit. Guys, have you bring up the next slide, Movements reporting. And you guys are really again, first on this, how strong Microsoft is across the board. But really going after it and collaboration. >> On that previous slide you saw that, Dropbox and Slack, we're all seeing replacements. So again, a lot of customers like where was all that spend going? Well, it's going to Microsoft Teams. It's going to One Drive. This is a Slack drilled out, or sorry, a Slack and teams drill down. That we did, earlier this year. And what we're trying to do is measure, how these products were going to do in the next 12 months. And so what you're looking at here is Fortune 500 organizations. What we did is we asked them how much of your organization, is using Microsoft Teams today. What percentage of your organization is going to be using Microsoft Teams 12 months from now? That's going to be in the yellow bars. And you can see the big upticks in 12 months. And we took some mid point averages. Look at how much Microsoft Teams is going to grow, within Fortune 500 accounts in the next 12 months. And if we look at Slack on the next slide, you're really now seeing the exact opposite. Same question, how many folks in your Fortune 500 organization are using Slack today? And what does that look like in 12 months? And the mid point average is actually coming down. And so, it's like Slack is a seat-based model. And so when you have less users that's going to generate less revenue. And so again, this is amongst the existing Fortune 500 customers. This doesn't include new Fortune 500, but this spells problems for Slack, when you kind of think about the next six to 12 months ahead. >> Well it's one thing if you're competing with Microsoft and your AWS. I've not really not worried about AWS, Microsoft, take a note AWS. If you're one of these collaboration platforms, Microsoft, we've seen over the years, first of all, they got great developer affinity. They know how to bundle different products together. Now they got the cloud working so they got their flywheel effect in the cloud. There's just not a ton of room. The thing is they have such a huge software estate, such a giant customer install base and it's just makes it easy for them. The products are good enough or in some cases really good. So that's going to be something to watch, because there's a lot of high valuations going on right now in their collaboration space. >> That's right. And I think, it really hits on the previous slide, or the previous slides on collaboration that we saw, was when you think again about the declines, a lot of that is impacting some of these pure plays. So in security you saw a lot of the legacy names getting in. On the collaboration side, you saw a lot of these pure plays your getting in. And so this is kind of, again when you think about where budgets are going and which vendors are being impacted, it's really concentrated into some specific areas. >> So now, one of the hardest hit areas, and you guys reported on this earlier, was the IT consulting and outsourcing IT. You guys have you bring up that the chart, it's pretty ugly. Maybe you can explain what you're seeing here and why you think that is. >> Yeah, no problem. So again, this is from our technology spending intention survey. We're measuring spend velocity here. Spend intensity, and you can see across, these are just a handful of IT consulting firms. If you look at the blue bars to the yellow bar. So the blue bar is, 2020 spending intent that we captured in January and now we're asking for updated 2020 spending intentions. You can see the deceleration in just the last three months. If you look at our COVID-19 drill down side that we conducted, one of the questions in there we asked was, are you freezing new IT projects or deployments? Almost, 1/4 percentage of customers said they are. And so, that is going to spell problems for this space. When you think about, look, if you're going into uncertain times an easy way to reduce your budget is by, spending less with consulting vendors since you know, you can just less than the number of deliverables, these individuals get paid based on. How many deliverables they can complete. So this is another area that when you kind of think about where the declines are coming from, this is certainly an area to look at. >> A lot of the customers we've talked to have said, we've basically shut down spending on some of the large projects. We're still focusing on some digital transformation, but that's maybe a longer term priority. And then the IBM piece of this chart, guys, if you could bring it back is interesting to me because look, they paid 34 billion for Red Hat. I've always said a key to the Red Hat acquisition was being able to point it at the large consulting base and modernize those applications. IBM actually had a pretty good quarter in services. Although they did mention that respect especially in software that in the month of the quarter software spending shutdown. I don't think we got visibility that this piece of the business, but this could be, somewhat of a concern going forward. I think that's going to be one of the areas that gets slow rolled coming back, Sagar. I don't think it's going to come back tomorrow. So please your thoughts. >> Just to kind of quickly wrap up IBM. So yeah, one of the things we kind of saw in the data was not only eroding spending intention data on a lot of their SaaS portfolio but also eroding market share. And we saw big down takes on Red Hat products and IT services. Even in cloud. And I know they indicated pretty healthy numbers on Red Hat and cloud. But again, we're asking about 2020, forward-looking spending intentions. And of course they pulled their guidance. So we don't know how that's going to look. But in our data, things are really coming down versus three months ago. And so I think just overall, that is a data set that we're quite negative one. >> I think IBM has that sense. Like I said, March was not good for software. That's when the big deals come through. You're right. Red Hat, I think route 20% in the quarter and is now accredited from a cashflow basis, which is one of their targets. I think they beat their target there. Still good cashflow. But I think there's just so much uncertainty, And IBM have to be prepared for that and I'm sure will. That we're at minus 5% now. We're seeing cloud SaaS, we're seeing a bifurcation. We talked about some of the areas that are in trouble. That's kind of part one. Next week we'll be talking about part two. What can we expect? >> Yeah, we'll start going through networking, CDN, ITSM, IT workflows, database, data warehousing, and we'll kind of go through that as well. But again, you're going to see a lot of what we talked about today. Just the bifurcation span where, vendors that are more next gen, more work-from-home friendly like all of the SaaS guys, they're doing really well. And on the on-prem and the legacy, you're just seeing elevated replacements, elevated decreased rates. This is the most bifurcated, I've seen this data set and I've been doing this at ETR for, almost seven, probably going on eight years now. So I think that kind of says something about the environment that we're in and what to kind of expect in the next three to six months. >> And it's kind of like the stock market is right now. You're actually seeing, some great momentum in certain stocks and terrible in others. Those were great balance sheets and maybe COVID is a tailwind for them. Others, tons of uncertainty, a lot of concern. I know in poking around the data set, like you said, some of the analytics, the data warehouses, you see Snowflake, UiPath, Automation Anywhere. A lot of the automation, RPA, momentum is there. Security, we talked about that. There's some real bright spots there but a lot of the on-prem stuff. We'll see product cycles affect that, in the second half of of 2020. We'll continue to report on this Sagar. Thank you so much for we're coming on and we'll definitely see you next week. >> Thanks for having me again, Dave. Looking forward. >> All right, and thank you for watching, this CUBE insights powered by ETR. We will see you next time. Don't forget, all these episodes are available as podcasts, wherever you listen. Go to etr.plus, checkout what's happening there. Siliconangle.com has all the news I publish in there weekly. I also publish on wikibond.com. Thanks for watching this breaking analysis. This is Dave Vellante and Sagar Kadakia, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From the SiliconANGLE media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm Dave Vellante.\ We're going to talk about unified communications and its role in digital transformations. Ray Krug is here. He's a solutions architect at NETSCOUT. Ray, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Hi Dave, good to be here. >> So talk a little bit about NETSCOUT. You guys are into a lot of different things, but give us the overview. >> Yeah, NETSCOUT, what they're primarily focused on is providing the visibility to assure digital business initiatives, to provide availability assurance, performance assurance, as well as security assurance as well and we do this using our smart data and smart analytics platform. We kind of do this for, okay, got a huge customer base, we do this for over 90% of the Fortune 500, 95% of the carrier service providers, so we scale to these large enterprises, sophisticated service providers, providing the visibility they need to assure their services. >> So as a solution architect what specifically is your role? >> Probably worthwhile giving a bit of history because I know we're talking about unified communications. So I have been with NETSCOUT now for about eight years it's been and I came from an acquisition. The acquisition was from a British company, a spin-out of British telecom called Psytechnics and we specialized, this is eight years, well 10 years ago, in analyzing the IP network for voice and video traffic and actually being able to understand how we can take impoundments in the network and how that translates to impoundments in voice quality over a voiceover IP. So that was the original data transformation project, the so-called digital transformation from TDM networks to IP. So yeah, we took those analytics and basically figured out how to do that. >> So deep understanding of actually what's going on in the network? >> Yeah absolutely, and what was exciting, and back to NETSCOUT, is when they acquired Psytechnics, they took this technology and put that into their pro-technology, they did that within three or four months. Our technology was in their probe monitoring the voice, both voiceover IP networks, and then what was interesting, within 12 months, all our workflows that we created for insured performance of voiceover IP networks got embedded into the NETSCOUT portfolio of products. And since then, eight years, winding on forward, we've been embedding more and more technology into our InGenuis One platform to give you better and better voice, video, and unified communication analytics. >> I love that story, Ray, because the vast majority of mergers and acquisitions fail to meet their original objectives, they take too long to integrate so some companies are good at it, some not so good at it, so it must've been pleasing to see that happen, and see your baby actually scale like that. All right, lets talk about big picture. What are the big trends that you see sort of driving unified communications today? >> Yeah, unified communications is getting more and more complex, and perhaps on one accord, sophisticated, but you kind of think, okay, most common used case for us is to be a contact center because at the end of the day, contact center, the customers are demanding more and more ways to interact with the business, traditionally it was voice but now they want web, web chats, video, whatever it might be, so contact centers a big consumer of unified communications. And then there's the different technology trends like, of course, Microsoft Skype for business, evolving into Microsoft Teams, or Cisco Jabber, unified communications and all that sort of thing. A whole bunch of other topics going on, again, part of digital transformation initiatives, SIP trunking, we're still seeing that going on. So I was talking about TDM to IP, so that was back in my day in Psytechnics, now it's taking those and transferring IP to SIP trunking to save costs, that's the main thing, but it is a change and it is more, not instrumentation, but more appliances on a network, like session border controllers in order to add your SIP trunking, and of course there's also other technology, migration to the cloud as well, which ends up, from our perspective what we're seeing is in very hybrid environments. So now you've got a lot of on-prem stuff and some cloud stuff, it's all going to work together in order to make voice, video, unified communications successful. >> Isn't another sort of challenge, I'll call it give the people what they want, you talk about contact centers being a primary source, people want to communicate in different ways. Young people maybe want to use chat, some people like me want to pick up and talk to a human. Is that part of the challenge, is bringing all those together to service all these different constituents? >> Yeah, absolutely, because at the end of the day, it's a contact center, you want to make sure you provide an engaging experience to your customers, however that might be. Omnichannel or whatever word you want to do it. The longer and happier the customer is dealing with your business, perhaps the more money they'll spend with your business, perhaps the better brand awareness they have of your business as well. >> So double click into some of the challenges of actually bringing this stuff together, making it work, is it cost, you mentioned complexity before, is it understanding the analytics, who's using what, predicting, double click on that. >> That's a big topic, but we talked about new features and immersive experience from unified communications, so that's all brilliant. The trouble is, high quality is key. You got to make sure that it's successful, so any migration project, you need to be successful to make sure that you've succeeded. Okay, so that's number one. Quality is key, but also in terms of cost, sometimes these initiatives about cost savings, so SIP trunking is a good example of that. I want to make my service the same as it was before, have some sort of future upgrade capability, but kind of make it cheaper, that's what SIP trunking does for you as well. So those are some of the reasons for doing it, but then that introduces more components in your infrastructure to make all that stuff work and it's not just about voice and video, it's all about the other backend servers as well to make it all happen whether that's mail or chat or presence or whatever it might be. Lots of components now that have to work together, stuff that you control but also stuff that you don't control like SIP trunks is a good example, or gateways out to the PSTs, things that you don't control, and that makes it kind of really tricky to deal with. There's a bunch of other stuff as well that's important, network convergence, you've got all these applications converging onto that one network infrastructure, how do you manage that? >> Quick tangent. So you mentioned SIP trunking, explain what that is for our audience so they don't have to google it. (Ray laughs) >> Yeah, so SIP trunking, basically, if you think about gatewaying out to the PSTN in terms of making your plain old telephone calls, dialing a number and sending out, SIP trunking does that all from an IP perspective. So the idea is, you don't necessarily do a conversion to TDM, traditional phone systems, it all goes IP. So basically, you then send everything out, IP, over the network, it gets to the other end, and the whole purpose of that, it's a service that you buy from your service provider and it's cheap. >> Okay, you talked about these challenges. Generally, how does the industry approach solving these problems and specifically how does NETSCOUT solve them? >> Great question. So traditionally, let's sort of rewind a little bit, I talked about a lot of components that need to work together to make your unified communications experience. Lots of servers, lots of network infrastructure, firewalls, session boarder controllers and all that. Traditionally, what you do is monitor each of those devices. Take a look at their CPU utilization, or take a look at how the servers are performing, and often, very little is taken into account about the network and how that's behaving, because again, I've said it's a converged network. So you end up with a picture saying, all my servers are working fine, but then you end up with the problem, but users are complaining because they can't dial, users are complaining because the quality is bad. So that's kind of the problem with trying to bring all those together using the different metrics and coming up with some sort of conclusion. >> And then it's finger pointing, right? >> Oh yeah, classic. >> Which mole to whack. >> Yeah, in constant use cases, war rooms, okay, all my lights are green for every person in that war room but the people are still complaining, absolutely. >> Okay, so talk more about how NETSCOUT approaches this. >> So, the name gives it away, really. We always focus on what's going on in the network, wherever that network may be, so we're taking a look at that, we call it Y data, it's packet data, and we're able to translate that. Whatever's going over the wires, whether it be an application going over the wires or whether it be unified communications going over the wire like voiceover IP, RTP, or signaling, SIP as an example of those. So we're able to get that picture of how everything is communicating with each other, and we're being able to raise that level. So packets are notoriously hard to interpret, but we've cracked it, we've got a sort of technology, it's a patented technology called ASI, adaptive service intelligence, we call it smart data, but it's converting that Y data into meaningful keeper points metrics. So you name it, you name the application, we've got performance metrics. So whether that be voice, voice quality, mean opinion score, we're taking that from the Y data. Whether it be application performance from a database that might be running, or a mail server that might be running, we have performance. Whether it's this signaling that goes on to get data and all that, we have performance metrics about that. So we're using the same data set, the Y data, bringing it up to our analytics, our ASI layer, and then we have an understanding of what component's failing. Is it the voice that's failing? Is it this part of the network that's failing? And then, for voice, there's a whole topic on how we understand that, remembering my background and the analytics behind that. >> So, your secret sauce is you've got this deep probe into the network, you've got this ASI, this patented technology, and you've got an architecture to leverage that capability, and that is really your big differentiator from a technical perspective? Is that right? >> Well, from a technical perspective, absolutely. And from an obvious perspective, we solve, in the easiest way, the most complex problems. It's kind of where it's coming, 'cause these are tricky problems to do, they sometimes go unseen for ages, but because we've got that overall visibility, we get to that root cause very quickly. >> Okay, let's talk about the business impact. Maybe you can give us some examples, customer examples, and how it affected their business? >> Yeah, so that's important. A couple of things, let's imagine you're contact center, a service company, so I've got one in mind, and the one that I have in mind, six contact centers, they take up to about 100,000 calls in a day. So it's important. They're a service company so people phone them up to have their service. If you can't make contact with your service company, maybe the impact of that is, okay, that service is rubbish, I'm going to go to a competitor, as an example. Or you don't get your service that you require. So there's huge implications. In this example, we've found that calls were dropping, as an example, so people are connecting with their agent, calls are dropping, okay, hopeless. It's really problematic. And it's interesting that you pointed out about war rooms and finger pointing, and that's exactly what happened. What they'd done, they'd engaged in a SIP trunking project to deploy SIP trunking they were going to save a million dollars a month by implementing this SIP trunk. So that's huge, okay yet, when they deployed this, they were having a bad experience, so that's critical, so they needed to achieve that successful migration, so they had tours but nothing that could spot what was going on with these calls dropping. So along come NETSCOUT, we deployed our probe, and very quickly, it's just amazing, very quickly we were to able to analyze the reason for the call dropping. Turned out it was a firewall issue, complex network so it's kind of difficult to know where the traffic is routing. We were able to figure that out, give it the evidence to say the signaling, the SIP, was dropping, and we were able to pinpoint that and they got that fixed very quickly. >> Which meant that they were able to realize that million dollar a month savings. >> Precisely, yes exactly. Let alone that any business that might've been affected by the fact that people couldn't call in. >> Any other examples you can share? >> Yeah, I've got a really great one, probably closer to a lot of people's hearts, and relates to a hospital, and they were going through a digital migration project. It's as simple as changing their phone handsets from one vendor to another in some respect, about 2,000 phones that they were replacing, so it's kind of interesting. So I've now got a nice new shiny phone on my desk, when I pick up the phone I get very bad quality and stuff like that, and just blame the phone and all that sort of thing. Sometimes that's change, people don't like change, they like all the buttons on their old phone, and sometimes it's real, but in a way, the business impact for that one is, if I'm a customer, a patient, I'm phoning up my doctor for some records, and the phone quality is bad, then I'm not going to have that much confidence that the doctor's going to be able to cope with my ailment that I might have. So it's really important to have quality, and when it's about your health, then it's really important that it's there. >> Awesome. Let's end on some advice that you would give to customers. So you got people trying to do digital transformations, they're trying to pull all these different communication systems together, trying to understand where the exposures are, the performance issues. What advice would you give to people that are struggling with these problems, where should they start, and what should their journey look like? >> In some respects, I think visibility is key, both before pre-migration, during migration and afterwards. So in my example before, having visibility of the performance of the phones before, in this migration issue, and then as I go through the migration, being able to just check that when they deployed the new phones, everything's working. And then of course, once, if there were any problems, so in my example, it was QOS problem. QOS, quality of service, so that's a networking problem and it goes back to, because we're in the network, we're looking at the network, as much as that's the most complex problem to solve, and it's everywhere, QOS problems are everywhere, it's the simplest thing for us to fix. So monitoring during migration, seeing what the behavior of the phones are, during that process, correcting everything quickly, so that the migration project is successful, and then post-migration, business as usual, monitoring, so if there are any problems you can quickly react to it. >> Got it, okay, so you're going to through a business case, you're going to make this part of your digital transformation, you're going to bring together all the stakeholders but I think your point is, if you don't have visibility on what's going on in the network, there are going to be some blind spots that you potentially run into. If you have visibility in the network, you're going to be able to remediate those, and the example you gave of the services company, you're going to be able to achieve your expectations and your ROI results and have confidence that you're going to be around for the next project. So Ray, thanks very much for coming on and sharing with us. And thank you for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. This is Dave Vellante with theCUBE. (bright synth music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Enterprise Connect 2019. Brought to you by, Five9. >> Welcome to theCUBE I'm Lisa Martin with Stu Mennamen. We are live on the show floor at Enterprise Connect 2019. Stu, welcome to Orlando! >> Thanks so much Lisa, great to be with you, (amplified voice echoing) and real excited to be here at Enterprise Connect. >> Likewise, and as you can hear, the show floor just opened, so we have a nice, conflicting overhead announcement. But Stu, this event is really interesting because it has evolved dramatically over the last 28, 29 years, where it was PBX, and then Voice Con. and for the last what, eight or so, it's been Enterprise Connect. As has, in terms of evolution, evolved enterprise communications, enterprise collaborations, cloud, AI, et cetera. Lot's of things and exciting news to talk about this week. >> Yeah Lisa, like any show, you say how are you relevant today? What is changing? What is staying the same? And as you said, 29 years of this show, first time we're going live here with theCUBE. But yeah, it is now, you know, unified communications. We're talking about cloud-based contact centers, like our friends here at Five9, who brought us here to the show, but 6,500 people is what I heard from the people that run the show. And it's been growing, it's been, you know, how do things like cloud and AI really transform some of these markets and at least in some ways, there are some things that remind me of what I worked on in this hotel communication space back in the late 90's, and some of those things are drastically different. So you know, we're not talking about call centers, we're talking about contact centers and that consumer experience. How data, and mobile, and the internet, and cloud, are changing, is definitely something that we're going to be digging into a lot this week. >> Yes, and another thing that we're going to dig into is this rising change in the empowerment of the consumer, right? We're consumers every day, we want to be able to transact, or get information on a mortgage or something from whatever channel we want, omnichannel is really going to be a key theme here. It's being able to talk to the customer where they want to be communicated with, and ensuring though, that it's not just, maybe you start out on web, and you go to chat, then maybe it's a call, maybe even as an escalation through Twitter. But that the organization that you're trying to engage with, has a contact center that can follow your trail, and follow your data, to be able to understand what the real issue is, and in a timely manner, empower that agent who's talking to you, whatever medium, to act correctly so you don't churn. >> Yeah, Lisa as you know, there's something that our audience, everyone has had to call support at one time or another. Myself, you know, I tend to troubleshoot a lot of stuff myself. When I actually want to call in, I want to get the answers, I don't want to have to spend a long time going through some robotic, you know, hi, give me an agent please, give me an agent, agent, agent. And then when I get to that person, I don't want to have to go through steps one through 17 because I've already done that myself so, how do I escalate fast? If I can do that all online or in chat, even better for me, because you know, I don't necessarily want to have to talk to a person, but when I do want to talk to a person, I want them to understand my environment, help me get there. And that's where a lot of these environments are helping today. How is it, you know, do I understand the client? Can I help them with where they need to be? And super hot-button is, you know, what about data? You know, how is the role of data in these environments changing? As a consumer, if there's certain things that I'm using, and I'm worried about them, talking about my privacy. But when it comes to the support experience, absolutely, I want you to understand who I am in the context and take care of things fast. >> You mentioned AI and one of the things that I'm curious to learn about this week is, is the maturation of that. But also something that you and I hear at pretty much every show theCUBE goes to, which is a lot, and that is, it's not about completely transforming to AI, there has to be a human AI combination to really, extract the most value from these experiences. >> Yeah, Lisa, you bring up a great point there. So right, automation and robots, absolutely are playing a bigger and bigger role, but the answer is not, you know, it's not binary, it's not one or the other, it's how can intelligence, and machines augment what they're doing? And when you talk to the contact center people, absolutely it's about, how do I get people information faster? How do I make those agents react faster and hopefully have a better job? You know when you talk about the people, and you know, Lisa my first job out of school, I worked in a call center and if you're answering calls all day, or answering emails, you know that's something that you have to do day-after-day and it can be tough. So if there's automation intelligence that can take care of it, prompt you with the information you need, help lead you along the way, help you get to mastery and resolution so much faster, that's all goodness. We want both the consumer and the employees to have a better experience and there's the promise that AI, and automation, and robots can all help with that experience. Not just a wholesale, let's rip out the people and put in technology. >> No, you're absolutely right, and it also is, I'm curious to learn too this week about, the employee training. One of the interviews you did recently in the Boston CUBE studio, the guest there mentioned, I recommend every C-level spend some amount of time in the call, contact center, to understand, are our processes efficient? If there's Sticky Notes and paper everywhere, we probably have some process challenges. But are those agents empowered to make the right decisions at the right time in order to, like I said before, prevent churn, and increase the customer lifetime value. So that customer experience is table stakes all the way up to the C-suite. >> Yeah I mean Lisa, as we know, if you talk to any marketer, and say, what do you want? I want to know what my customer wants. What do they need? What are the challenges? And when a customer's reaching out with a problem, that can be a great opportunity. Now hopefully there, you can solve their issue, because the concern is, maybe they won't even reach out. You know, if it's not on my website, if I tried to do it, or I had to wait too long, I might go turn to a competitor. It's easier sometimes just to leave. And we know every time, one person calls, there's usually many more that didn't call, that might've had that same issue. So, understanding where I can engage, more touchpoints with our customers is a good thing, and how can we leverage that into a good experience? And I know when I look into the contact center, it's not just the inbound requests, but how did that tie into outbound conversations? >> And enabling an organization to use that data, in a trusted manner as you mentioned, to switch from being reactive, to proactive, to eventually, predictive. But one of the points you mentioned is very valid and that is, for every customer that initiates a conversation through a contact center, there's probably exponential more customers with the same problem that aren't. So these companies need to be using AI in the cloud contact center as a service to really understand it's the customer that's telling you what the problem is, how do you get that information gleaned from it? You know, starting to use analytics and things that probably back in your early call center days, you didn't have access to, to really hone in on what that problem is, how prevalent is this problem? So do we need to throw a lot of resources at solving this, because this is going to ultimately help drive our business forward? >> Yeah, absolutely and Lisa, these are the kind of things that we talk about in the cloud world today, which has a huge impact on this show is, I have contacts with customers, we have engagement and data there, and what other services are there that will plug into this environment? So AI, you asked about the maturity, at least from what I've seen so far, we are early days in seeing that roll out. But, there's a lot of other technologies here. You talk about cloud, talk about text-to-speech, talk about devices that will help whether it's not just phones, and headsets and the like, but lots of other tools, that the enterprise uses to connect with their ultimate end users themselves, hence, Enterprise Connect. The communication at the center of it all. And it's interesting here in 2019, to see that relevance, and that intersection of the people and the technology to hopefully help people have better relationships longterm with their customers. >> Absolutely, so you mentioned, we're in the booth at Five9 here, there's about 140 exhibitors here, you mentioned 6,500 attendees here in Orlando. 60 plus sessions across nine tracks, unified communication, cloud communications, team collaborations, we've got Jace Moreno from Microsoft Teams on shortly with us today, so it's going to be a very interesting week. I'm very much looking forward to co-hosting with you and learning a lot about how the consumer is really driving, and has a table at the decision-making table within organizations. >> Yeah absolutely, and Lisa we've got a great line up. Really two and a half days, a half-day today from three to seven and then the full days from right after the keynote through the ending. The expo floor just opened up, a great buzz here already at the show, I'm looking forward to being able to walk around and see some of the technology, and some great guests on the program. Of course our friends here at Five9 who brought us here, we've got the CEO of Poly, rebranded Plantronics and PolyCom, the CIO of Zoom, and many other guests on the program, some of the industry analysts and the like. So, real excited to dig in and always a pleasure Lisa, to be digging in with you. >> Likewise, thanks Stu, I'm excited to learn more about this contact center as a service market. It seems early days as you mentioned. And I always appreciate it when businesses identify that. No we don't have all the answers for AI and the combination of humans and machines, it's early days, early innings as you said, but they're here to learn from each other, and understand how it is that they can really influence and drive these kinds of conversations forward. >> Yeah the fun fact on that, I was listening to a podcast on the way to the airport and it talked about actually, with all the data that we have today, often times the answer is easy, it's I need to be able to ask the right questions. And Lisa, you and I know a thing or two about trying to ask the right questions. >> We do. >> So we have lots of opportunities to do that this week. And hear how all the people in this ecosystem are thinking about asking better questions and getting to their customers. >> Yeah, so I predict it's going to be a thought-provoking week Stu, I'm looking forward to being here with you. We want to thank you for watching theCUBE's kickoff of our live coverage of Enterprise Connect 2019, day one of three, stick around, Stu and I will be right back with our first guest. (upbeat synth music)

>> Live from Bellevue, Washington. It's theCUBE, covering Smartsheet Engage '18. Brought to you by Smartsheet. >> Hi, welcome to theCUBE. We are live at Smartsheet Engage 2018. Our first time here, I'm Lisa Martin with Jeff Frick. Jeff, it's great to be paired back up with you again. >> Yeah, it's been a little while, great to see you, Lisa. >> It has, you too. So this is the second annual Smartsheet Engage. There's about a couple thousand people here. Double last year and they shared. We just got in from the keynote and they shared some interesting things. First of all, they IPOed just about four or five months ago. I think April 2018. They have presence in 190 countries. They have 75,000 customers. They've got users in half the Fortune 500. 90% of the Fortune 100. And a lot of momentum. What are some of the things that you're excited to learn about Smartsheet today? >> You know, I think it's kind of an interesting story. There's so many components of a lot of different work applications and we go to so many shows. We hear about a new way to work from IBM. One of my favorite lines of the year was actually from Google Cloud where you want to empower people to actually be, as you wrote it down, make judgements instead of drudgery. And these guys are all about that, but it's a little bit confusing 'cause they integrate with a lot of the other type of applications that people interact with at work. The big mentions of the Microsoft Suite, of 365, of Slack and some of those other tools. So what Smartsheet's tryin' to do is really roll those all up under kind of a unified view, parts of project management, parts of task management, a lot of pieces to really add that top level management. So I think it's a little bit of an interesting message. It's a lot of bits and pieces. We're used to that with theCUBE. We have three brands, so I kind of get it. So I'm lookin' forward to learning more about really how they kind of parse that out. >> I am as well 'cause you mention a number of other solutions who they both compete with, Microsoft Teams, JIRA under Atlassian. They also partner with them. And I'm curios to see an example and we've got three customers of theirs on the show today, Jeff. I'm interested to see that in action. If I am at an enterprise, and I am running a marketing project and I want to use Smartsheets, but I also need Slack for messaging, email for communication. I've got maybe another team I'm collaborating with that's using a different workflow automation platform. How does it actually work together? One of the interesting things, when CEO Mark Mader who's our first guest today, was with you in the studio in Palo Alto just a couple months ago, he was talking about the genesis of Smartsheet. And I also saw him say this in a press release when their IPO occurred back in April and said a lot of people, critics, in the very beginning 12 years ago said, you guys are nuts to go base this new technology, this new SaaS platform off of a spreadsheet model. But something interesting that he said is that, that's a construct that 400-500 million people understand. So this is another interesting element to me is that this is technology that's not, you don't have to know how to code or even what an API is. This is for the business users, the lines of business, IT, marketing, engineering, the facilities management. So it's really, it's got a broad spectrum of use cases that I'm also interested in hearing about today. >> It's funny on the worksheet as kind of a construct because we hear that all the time. Especially at all of our big data shows, right? Worksheets in Excel is still used by a lot of people for a significant amount of work. So people are familiar with it and they know how it works. I think they'll have to change that a little bit as they grow a little bit beyond that. Still a lot of conversation about rows and it sounded very spreadsheet centric in the keynote. And I think that'll evolve, but I think what's the most important thing, what I'm excited about, I say this time and time again. We go to so many shows, right? Everyone is struggling to find innovation. To me the answer is, one of the answers is kind of simple. You get more people, more access to more data with more tools to manipulate that data. And then most importantly, the power to do something about it. This was all about empowerment, empowerment, empowerment. Letting people, give 'em the information and then let them actually do something with it. That is so significant and it's kind of interesting. They had a Stephen Covey quote up on their as well that's kind of a similar thing. Taking it to the next step which is that's how you keep people happy, that's how you keep people engaged. Again, less drudgery, more judgment. Let them feel like they can actually make a difference versus just pushin' buttons and movin' paper along. >> Yeah, another theme that we heard a lot on the keynote this morning, Jeff, is about collaboration. And it really seems to me to be this message of symbiotic collaboration. They, Gene Farrell, who's going to be on the show with Jeff and I just in a few minutes or so, talked about, hey, customers we've heard you. You want more, and he actually got the crowd to chant, we want more, it was great. But when he was starting to talk about some of the new enhancements to the features. And yes, you're right, they're still talking about some, I don't want to say antiquated row structures and things like that, there were a number of times where the audience today broke into applause. So, not only are they delivering this SaaS platform to facilitate collaboration between teams at small organizations to big enterprises, they are also collaborating with their customers to continually innovate and improve their product. And I thought, something that I've never seen and we see a lot of keynotes, is that their CEO, Mark Mader, actually went into the audience during his session this morning and asked customers to stand up and talk about how Smartsheet is empowering them. And there were at least three different customers that stood up-- >> Right. >> and quite articulately spoke about how mostly qualitatively, but how their businesses or their team or their productivity is being improved. So this bidirectional collaboration, I thought was very palpable this morning. >> Right, which again I think is one of the huge benefits of the SaaS business model that is way underreported, not by us, we talk about it all the time. Is that if you have a recurring revenue model with your customer it forces you to be engaged. It forces you to deliver value. It forces you to innovate on an ongoing basis. It's not a ship and dump and then release. We'll come back in a year for our 15% maintenance. It's a very different way to go. Other really interesting things, they talked about recent events, Hurricane Florence in North Carolina. Happened to be a customer there able to aggregate and pull together a lot of information into these dashboards and that's something we hear about all the time. We'll hear about it more in the PayPal example. It was referenced in the keynote which is when you have to pull that data together for your weekly executive briefing, this promise of all these dashboards has always been there. Smartsheets is a little bit different because they want to be the primary way, but they want to integrate with all these other applications and other SaaS applications as well, so that you can create that user specific dashboard for the objective and you don't have to reassemble all that data every week for your weekly to roll up to the C-Suite. >> Yeah, and one of the things, speaking of customers, they had over 50 customers speaking at the event this week which is a lot. I was very impressed by that. >> Yeah, out of 2,000 registrants that's a big percentage. >> That is a big number. I think also some of the stats that Mark Mader showed were 1,100 companies are represented here from 20 countries. In fact, I also saw online that nearly a third of their revenue comes from outside the US and they actually don't have much presence outside the US at all. Outside of Converse.AI that they acquired based in Edinburgh, back in I think January of this year. But in terms of customers, the voice of the customer and that customer collaboration, we're also going to be talking to a gentleman who runs their customer success and partner success program. As you mentioned, the SaaS model being different, this isn't just check in every year and dial up the increase in subscription costs. So I'm curious what their new playbook is for customer success that they are developing and implementing or executing, that going to be their word, right? >> Right, right. >> Execution. Based on this new model and how customers want to be engaging with vendors. Ultimately they want things as simple as possible, so I'm curious to hear about how that customer success playbook here might be a differentiator against Atlassian, JIRA, Microsoft Team, and some of the other competitors. And also, how does it facilitate this breadth of collaboration? How does it enable them to collaborate with sales force and Amazon and Microsoft and Slack, for example? A lot of interesting points here and I'm hoping today what we're able to do is help put that together and sort of integrate this message. >> Should be a good day, looking forward to it. >> I think so. >> Our first time here. >> It is our first time. So stick around, Jeff and I are going to be live all day. We are again in Bellevue, Washington at the second annual Smartsheet Engage 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with Jeff Frick. Stick around, we're going to be right back with the CEO in just a minute. (high tech music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the CUBE. Covering ServiceNow Knowledge 2018. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Welcome back everyone, day two of the CUBE's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge 18. Here at the Venetian in Las Vegas Nevada, I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohost Dave Vellante. >> Dave: Still have my voice. >> You still have it yes okay well we'll see how you do tomorrow but you're still going strong. But I'm really excited about this panel we have Pharrel Howe she is a GM in IT service management, asset management, business management. Have I forgotten one? >> Nope. >> Rebecca: I got it all at ServiceNow. >> Dave: This week. >> Exactly, at ServiceNow. You run the biggest business for ServiceNow. >> Yes. >> Thanks for joining us Pharrel. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. >> So I want to talk about employee experience which is really. It's just the cornerstone of this conference but really ServiceNow's purpose. Why has it become so increasingly important in IT today? >> Okay well in IT really you saw it today in CJ's keynote. The era of great experience is here and in IT we've been really really great at managing productivity and managing cost and making sure we were running efficiently and that we still do that and do it really well. But now we have to also make sure not just our customers have a great experience but our employees do too. And companies that do that well have the competitive advantage. It's absolutely required that we're able to do that now and so you know ServiceNow's paving the way for great experiences on our platform. For customers and employees and we're excited to be leading the next era of great experience. >> So I don't want to minimize the accomplishments that ServiceNow has made because they're phenomenal. >> Pharrel: Alright I'm happy for you not to minimize them. >> But I want to say this, you have thrived. I mean when Fred Luddy developed the platform. You thrived in the sea of mediocrity and you drove a ship through that sea and just mopped up a lot of business. Awesome, congratulations and in this world we live in it's like now it's becoming table stakes. If you guys have pointed out our home lives we live with these consumer interfaces we expect that now so as a leader of ServiceNow's a largest business. How do you continue to push the innovation levier? We expect now so much more, how do you continue to differentiate. Because your competition has woken up, the world was waking up. How do you stay ahead? >> Well you saw, you know earlier today CJ talking again and we're going to, you'll continue to see this theme from us. It is all about the platform. We are a platform company and when we build and innovate, acquire and then innovate. It is all within the platform and that I our competitive advantage. So then every application that was in existence today or that we build in the future can take advantage of that innovation natively. It's all integrated and seamless and there's nobody else out there who is able to do that and deliver those experiences. And so that is going to continue to be our strategy moving forward. >> So let's double click on that a little bit. Maybe get some examples. So clearly there's a big emphasis on UX and design. I think you guys have made some investments in design firms. >> Pharrel: Significant. >> There's machine intelligence I'll call it, AI. You're infusing AI throughout the platform and those are just two examples. >> Yeah. >> Maybe talk about those and give us some others if there are them. >> Sure well you know in the IT keynote that I'm going to have this afternoon. It's all about the era of great experiences and taking the roles that are in IT. It will be about the fulfiller, the requester, the planner and the operator in IT and how we've taken to the road and gone and done user research out with our customers and we're building great experiences in the platform for those roles. You no longer is it going to stand for you to just use your best judgment and go and build product and hope everybody will come. You've got to get out there side by side with your customers. Truly understand the work that they're doing and then build that back into the product and iterate again and again and again. And so that's the direction we're going from a design standpoint to build those experiences. >> So let's unpack this era of great experiences something that's simple, easy, intuitive but what are we really talking abut here. How do you define a great experience? >> Yeah well let's take it from something that we can relate to, we're all requesters of services one way or another right? And me as an employee I need services from IT in order to do my job. The thing is the channels that we have today are not enough. Phone and email aren't going to cut it and a lot of times if I'm in the carpool line waiting to pick up my daughter and her friends from school. I and you know I'm trying to check in on the ticket status for a laptop that I need immediately and I happen to think of it right then. I'm not going to call IT, I'm not in front of the laptop. I need more channels on more devices anytime anywhere at my convenience not someone else's. And so that's the kind of stuff that were talking about. We can't, it can't just be good enough anymore it has to be prolific. >> I'm interested in how you're using and applying machine intelligence. It seems like you're trying to anticipate my needs, put things in front of me that I might. You know I might shorten my search time or might be relevant that I hadn't even though of. Is that the right way to be thinking about how you're using machine intelligence and second part of the question is. What ar you finding that machines can do better than humans and how do they compliment each other? Srt of a long question. >> Sure I love this question. That's okay love it. Okay so our initial approach to agent and to machine intelligence, artificial intelligence. All of that is to you heard CJ say it today. You'll here micro-moments are moments that matter and we're looking to inject intelligence right there. Right there, those are very very practical use cases. They're not a panacea. They are not the answer but they are an answer in a moment that critically matters and so a perfect example of how that would play out would be my example previously of checking in on my laptop. The virtual agent that we're bringing to the market in our London release is all conversation based. And so I can very quickly see what topics that agent can handle and I can you know immediately engage on what that looks like and get the confidence that I need back and forth engaging with the virtual agent in m convenience wherever I am. Whether I'm at work or I'm at home and so you know that is a moment that matters for me because it's not, it eliminates the mental overhead for me to keep track of the administration of just trying to do my job everyday. Now take the flip side of that. The person who's on the other side of that virtual agent or would have been had that virtual agent not be there. They are not having to answer those kind of questions. Is my laptop coming please just assure me. They're not answering questions and so you know maybe that's not necessarily deflecting it an incident. It could be, but it's also reducing the administrivia that's happening when, and so it's cutting down the time it takes to resolve incidents and it's reducing friction and frustration. Between fulfillers and requesters of service ad so that's how we're looking at it. In those moments that matter and then as technology evolves and gets stronger. There may be bigger and larger use cases. >> And the machine verses human thing. I hate to say it that way but things the machines are doing. You're seeing categorization obviously is one at scale. Other things, I mean how do you see that evolving. What are the things that increasingly machine are going to do that humans can't do as well. >> Well I would say a use case besides maybe the virtual agent and those conversation based topics which really are just guided flows for conversation. Another thing might be being able to you know if there's just so much data that would take me a while. Or I would need a business analyst to maybe go and look for insights. That's something that machines can do and that's not replacing humans that's scaling our ability to act. And so that I think is the next foray to really move into and we'll start poking in different areas of insights as well and the moments that matter for work getting done in the enterprise as well. >> Because that is really what we're trying to do is help people get their work done. >> Pharrel: Yes. >> Quicker. >> Pharrel: And more easily. And when we talk about employee experience it's simply that. Please just let me get my work done and let me have some choice. I'm going to have a personal tool chain. Don't force me to use you know ServiceNow, please don't force me to use your messaging client. Our connect chat if I want to Microsoft Teams or Slack let me do that and let me keep that UI. So we're really when we talk about employee experiences it's a very broad arena there and its a great partnership between IT and all the other lines of business to deliver what employee experience is going to look like. >> And you know Rebecca, we talked about this yesterday. John Donahoe took on the machine replacing humans and was very transparent. The example I would use is search. When IDC we had a big library. We had like three or four librarians. They're not there anymore but nobody is saying oh wow. Search I mean search is a machine. It made our lives better, it created new opportunities. I think that's a good example, a small one but one where. I'm an optimist even though things are getting complex. >> Pharrel: Me too, absolutely an optimist on that and so for example with our virtual agent. Go do a search on LinkedIn and you will find for conversation designer. There are new jobs being created to be able to support this kind of technology. You know, jobs are evolving not going away. >> So speaking of jobs. You have been a very successful leader in a high growth organization. >> Thanks. >> I think on your Twitter it says I'm on a rocket ship ride of a lifetime. >> Pharrel: I am, I'm here to tell you. >> I'd love to hear what your advice is for other leaders who are trying to affect transformational change in their IT organizations. >> Alright I think whether it's personal change for yourself, you're trying to evolve or you need to evolve your organization. The first thing you need to do is check your assumptions. You know the older we get and the more we're barraged by noise we think we know. Make sure that you're really clear on and have some self reflection but also go and check that with people around you and get some clarity around alright is this really the reality. What's our reality that we're trying to transform? And when you're talking about transformation it doesn't necessarily happen overnight. It can happen overnight and that's called disruption but transformation that you are initiating. Give yourself a little bit of breathing room. You got to know that this is a marathon and you cannot be doing it at a sprint pace. You will burn out so keep your eye on the horizon and what you're trying to accomplish and just get started. Don't sit there and wait and try to have the perfect plan. You're going to attack your way through it, it's going to change anyway. Just get started. >> The rapid iteration we were hearing about that's so important. >> Yeah absolutely DevOps and you know personal digital transformation. You got it. >> I also want to talk to you about women. There is a dearth of women leaders in technology. You are one of them, what are you doing personally to promote diversity and inclusion at ServiceNow and then what is the company doing and finally what should the tech industry be doing to face this challenge head on? >> Yeah you know my take on it is, it's all about belonging and I got that word from Pat Waters. So diversity, inclusion and belonging. That's something that she's championing and we are so fortunate to have her as our chief talent officer. Prior to having that word I was just really focused on connection. You know really engaging just with people and trying to understand where they're coming from and really making sure that you're practicing active listening. That has been like the key for my success I will say throughout my career. Is just being able to constantly reflect back what I'm hearing. One to make sure I didn't put any filters on it obviously and then two people want to feel heard and so you know whenever I get into the conversation around women in tech. Yes there are some very real facts, fact based, data based challenges ahead of us but where I choose to put my focus is a much broader conversation that includes you know everyone. And really just focusing a lot more on connection and belonging over all makes a huge difference. >> What you're saying is really resonating because I mean that's what we keep hearing is happening but perpetuates the old boys club is that oh I know this guy because we went to college together. Or some other kind of biases that you hold that it's just oh he's like me. I want to promote him and bring him along and there are fewer women in positions of power who they can bring up the people that they see are like them. So I think that's another problem too is that you have to... >> Yeah that goes back to a really great HR practice which is you cannot just reach deep into your network every time you get in trouble. Rely on a great HR standard practice that says no you know we need to go out there and there's great talent out there that you just didn't even think of. So you know when you're going back to, we talked about transformation earlier in this conversation. Check your self awareness, be clear about wait a minute. Do I really know right now what I need. I'm not sure let me broaden my perspective here and HR's been a great partner to be able to do that. >> So that's a great point because gender and race and sexual preference are part of that diversity and certainly other factors. But like a financial advisor when the portfolio gets over balanced in one area he or she has to rebalance that portfolio. And again it sounds formulaic but I think Pharrel your point is what you're looking for is to open up that network to a wider audience. >> Absolutely. >> And not just the good old boys network. >> I have a little bit of a bias here, you know my background. I'm an English major and I'm running the large business for ServiceNow. >> We need to open the diversity to English, it's a liberal arts background. >> I don't want kids these days to think that if they pick one path they're stuck in that path and their locked into certain jobs. It's not true, you can you just need, it's the way that you think, it's having critical thinking skills. Now listen, you're not going to go put me on the platform although I probably could. Go in and start coding, you're not going to rely on me to do that right away. I can learn it but allowing us, allowing yourself to start to believe. That hey wait a minute, you know the labels that I've grown up with and put on people. Maybe I can remove a couple and I love it when I'm surprised and are able to bring an employee on my time that I'm like ah it doesn't necessarily make sense on the paper but look at you. You're amazing. >> Well one of the things that supports that is digital. For years if you were in the financial services business or the manufacturing business or the automotive business. You were there for life but if you have digital skills you can traverse now much more easily. >> Yes absolutely. >> Kids today just have phenomenal opportunities. >> I know, I know it's great. I think it's so cool and I love making. I love opening tech a bit more to make it more accessible. More appealing, that there are so many different roads to come in and it's important that we get people who think differently, creative you know people who are good strong communicators. Who can bring clarity to a situation. We need all of that and that to me is the first step for diversity. >> And because that's the stuff that robots aren't very good at. Is the empathy, the creativity, that kind of broad thinking. >> That's right. >> Awesome way to bring it home. >> Found full circle. Pharrel thanks so much for coming on the program. What a fun and enlightening conversation. >> Oh my gosh, super fun. I really appreciate it. >> And you're speaking today at 1:30, good luck with that. >> And by the way we have a diversity and inclusion belonging lunch with Pat Waters and CJ Desai which will be at I think 12:30 as well so. >> Great plug, excellent. Thank you so much again. I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante we will have more from ServiceNow Knowledge 18 hashtag know 18 just after this.