from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat hi I'm Stu min a man and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat summit having digitally interviewing practitioners executives and thought leaders from around the world happy to welcome back to our program one of our cube alumni a chef des données is the senior vice president of cloud platforms with Red Hat ashesh thank you so much for joining us and great to see you yeah likewise thanks for having me on Stu good to see you again all right so a shesh since the last time we had you on the cube a few things have changed you know one of them is that IBM has now finished the the acquisition of bread hat and I've heard from you from a really long time you know OpenShift it's anywhere and everywhere but with your exhibition Red Hat it just means you know this only run on IBM mainframes and IBM cloud and all things blue correct well that's true for sure right so Stu you know we're talking for many many times as you know we've been committed to hybrid multi-cloud from the very GetGo right so open ships supported to run on bare metal on which was asian platforms will they come from us or BM where microsoft happy on private clouds like OpenStack as well as AWS Google cloud as well as on a sure now with the completion of the IBM acquisition Red Hat we obviously always partnered with IBM before but given if you will a little bit for a close relationship here you know IB has been very keen to make sure that they promote open ships and all their platforms right so as you can probably see open idea about up as well as open shift on Xeon mainframe it's so regardless of how you like open shape wherever you like open ship you will get it yeah oh so great client clarification it's not only on IBM but of course all of the IBM environment are supported as you said as well as ad abs Google Azure and the like yeah it's you know I remember years ago before IBM created their single condensed conference I think I attended the conference that would do you know Z and power and storage and people would be like you know what are they doing you know with that mainframe I'm like well you do know that can run Linux wait it can run Linux I'm like oh my god these been able to run Linux for a really long time so you want your latest container docker you know openshift stuff on there yeah that can sit on a mainframe I thought some very large global companies that that is absolutely a part of their overall story so so interesting you by the way you say that because we already have customers who've been a procuring openshift on mainframe right so if you made the investment frame it's running much typical applications for you looking to modernize on the applications and then services run on top you know open ship domain say now there's an available option which customers already taking advantage of so exactly right to your point we're seeing that yeah and it's just maybe it's good to kind of you know you've got a great view point as to customers deploying across all sorts of environment so you mentioned VMware environments the public cloud environment you know it was you know our premise a few years ago on the cube that you know kubernetes gets baked into all the platform and absolutely it's going to just be you know a layer underneath I actually think we won't be talking a lot about kubernetes if you fast forward a couple years just because you know it's in there it's I'm using it in all of my environment so what are you seeing from your customers where are we in that general doctrine and you know any specifics you can give us about you know kind of the breadth and the depth of what you're seeing yes so you're exactly right all right we're seeing that adoption continue on the path it's been not so we've got now over 1,700 customers of poor openshift running in all of these environments that you mention right so public-private you know a combination of the two running on traditional which ization environments as well as ensuring that they run in public cloud that scale in some cases managed by customers other cases you've managed by by us on their behalf in a public cloud so we're seeing all permutations if you will you know of that in play today we're also seeing a huge variety workloads right and to me that's actually really interesting it and past that all right so earliest days as you'd expect you know people don't play with micro services right so trying to build unity Marc services and run it right so part native what have you then you know as we were ensuring that we're supporting stateful application right now you're starting to see if you a legacy application move on right ensuring that you know we can run them support them at scale you know within the platform you know customers looking to modernize applications I will talk maybe in a few minutes also a little bit of kind of Lipton shift you know that that you know you've got to play as well but now also we're starting to see new workloads come on right so just you know most recently we announced you know some the work that we're doing with series of partners right from Nvidia to emerging a IML you know a I utter intelligence machine learning frameworks ice bees you know looking to bring those to market been ensuring that those are supported and can run with open ship right our partners with Nvidia ensuring open ship we support you know GPU based environment for specific workloads right whether it be performance sensitive or you know specific workloads they take advantage of July starting now to see a wide variety if you will of application types is also something that that were chimes all right so numbers of customers increasing types of workloads you know you know coming on grazing and then the diversity of underlying deployment environments you know whether they're running balls it's such an important piece and I'm so glad you talked about it there because you know my backgrounds infrastructure and we tend to look at things as to oh well you know I move from a VM to a container the cloud or all these other things but the only reason infrastructure exists is to run my applications it's my data and my application that are the most important things out there so a shesha I want to get in some of the news that you've got here your team working a lot of things I believe one of them talks about you know some of those those new ways that customers are building applications and how openshift fits into those yeah absolutely so look we've been you know on this journey as you know for several years now you know recently we announced the GA of open ship you know server smash it support sto right increasing interest as for turning micro services and I won't take advantage of those capabilities are coming in you know at this event we're now also announcing the GA of open ship serverless but we're starting to see obviously a lot of interest right you know we've seen likes of AWS spawn that up in the first instance but more and more customers interested in making sure that they can get you know portable way to run server list in any kubernetes environment like to take advantage of open source projects as building blocks if you will right so primitives in within kubernetes to allow for surveillance capability is loud for you know scale down to zero support and serving and eventing up and having portable functions you know run across those environments so that that's something that is important to us and we're starting to see support up in the marketplace yeah so I I'd love just you know we've obviously I'm sure you've got lots of breakouts in the open ship server list but you know I've been talking to your team for a number of years and people is like oh well you know just as cloud killed everything before you know serverless obviates the need for everything else that we were going to use before underlying openshift server list my understand Kay native either is the solution or a piece of the solution help us understand you know what service environments decides into what this means for both your infrastructure team as well as your kind of app dev team yeah yeah and a great great question right so Kay native is the basis of our solar solution you know that we're introducing on open chef to the marketplace yeah the best way for me to talk about this right is is no one size fits all right so you're going to have you know specific applications or service that will take advantage of several SK abilities there will be some others that will take advantage of you know running within open ship they'll be yet others you know we talked to the robot and the AI ml frameworks that will run with different characteristics also within the platform so now the platform is being built to help support a diversity multitude of different ways of interacting with it right so I think maybe Stu you're starting to allude to this a little bit right so now we're starting to focus on you know we've got a great set of building blocks you know on the right compute network storage you know a set of primitives that you know kubernetes laid out right thinking of the notions of clustering and being able to scale and we'll talk about what management is well off of those clusters up and then it changes to hey what are the capabilities now that I need to be able to make sure that I'm most effective most efficient regard to these workloads that have been done you're probably hearing me say workloads now several times right because we're increasingly focused on adoption adoption adoption right how can we ensure that when these 1700 plus hopefully you know hundreds if not thousands more of customers come on how they can get the most variety of applications onto this platform right so it can be a true abstraction over all the underlying you know physical resources that they have across every deployment that they've put up all right well I wish we could spend another hour talking about the serverless piece I definitely going to make sure I check out some of the breakout that covered the feast and we talked to you but I I know there's a lot more that the open shift updates have so what other announcements news do you have to cover for yeah so a couple of the things they said I wanna make sure I highlight here one is Ghibli called ACM advanced cluster management that when you're saying right so there's a fair amount of work that was happening with the IBM team working on Plus imagine capabilities we've been doing some of that work ourselves within Red Hat you know as part of IBM Red Hat coming together we've had several folks from IBM actually joined Red Hat and so we're now open sourcing and providing this cluster magical with it right so this is the notion of being able to run and manage these different clusters from openshift at scale across a multitude of ironmans be able to check on cluster help people to apply policy could consistently provide governance ensure that appropriate application they're running appropriate clusters and so on right a series of capabilities to really allow for you know multiple Buster's to be run at scale and managed effectively right so that's one set of go ahead stick yeah if I could when I hear about multi cluster management III I think of some of the solutions I've heard talked about in the industry so you know as you're arc from Microsoft hanzou from VMware when they talk about multi cluster management it is not only the kubernetes solutions that they are offering but also you know how do I at least monitor if not even allow a little bit of control across these environments but when you talk about cluster management is that all you know kind of the the openshift pieces or things like a KS d KS other you know options out there how do those fit into the overall you know management story yeah that's absolutely our goal right so you know we gotta get started somewhere right so we obviously want to make sure that we bring in to effect the solution to manage OpenShift cluster that scale and of course as we'd expect multiple other bus will exist from kubernetes you know like the ones you mentioned from the cloud provider as well as others from third parties and we want the solution to manage that as well but you obviously we're going to sort of take steps to get to through the end point of this journey so yes we will we will get there right we've got to get started somewhere yeah and if chesh any guidance when you look at people you know some of the solutions I mentioned out there when they start out it here's the vision so what what guidance would you give to customers about kind of where we are how fast they can expect these things mature and you know I know anything that Red Hat does is going to be fully open force and everything but you know what what's your guidance out there is what customers people yeah so what was an interesting point I think in this kubernetes journey right now right so when we if you will start off and stew you and I've been talking about this for at least five years not longer was this notion that you know we want to provide a platform that can be portable and successfully run in multiple deployment environments and we've done that over these years but all the while when we were doing that we're always thinking about what are the capabilities that are needed that are perhaps not developed upstream but will be over time but we can ensure that we can look ahead and bring that into the path up and for a really long time I think we we still do right we at Red Hat take a lot of stick for saying hey look you've pork the platform now barn I'll come back to that has always been look we're trying to help solve problems that we believe enterprise customers have we want to ensure that the available open source and we want upstream those capabilities always and back into the community all right but you know let's say making available a platform without our back role based access control what's going to be hard then for enterprise to to adopt that we've got to make sure we introduce that capability and then make sure that it's supported upstream as well and there's a series of capabilities and features like that that we work through and we always provide an abstraction with an open ship to make it more productive for developers administrators to use it and we always also support you know working with coop ctrl or command line interface from coop as well right and then we always hear back from folks saying well you know you've got your own abstraction you know that might make that seem like before collect no you can use both coops ETL you use you know OC commands right whichever one you know is better for you right you have at it right we're just trying to be more productive and now increasingly what we're seeing in the marketplace is this notion that you know we've got to make sure we work our way up from not just laying out a kubernetes distribution but thinking about the additional capabilities additional services that you can provide that'll be more valuable to customers I think Stu you're making the point earlier right increasingly the more popular and the more successful kubernetes becomes the less you will see in Europe which by the way is exactly the way it should be because that becomes then the basis of your underlying infrastructure you're confident that you've got a lock rock-solid bottom and now you as a customer you as a user of focusing all your energy and time on building the productive application and services yeah great great points there are chefs write the division people always talked about is if I'm leveraging cloud services um I shouldn't have to worry about what version they're running well when it comes to kubernetes ultimately we should be able to get there but you know I I know there's always a little bit of a Delta between the latest and newest version of kubernetes that comes out and what the manage services and not only manage services what what customers are doing their own environment right even my understanding even Google you know which is where kubernetes came out of if you're looking at g/kg gke is not on the latest what are we up 1.19 start from the community is shesh so um yeah where's what what's Red Hat's position on this how do you what version are you up to how do you think customers should think about managing across those environments because boy yeah I've got too many you know stars from you know interoperability history go back in 15 years and everything like you know oh my server BIOS doesn't work on that latest kernel.org version of what we're doing for linux um you know Red Hat is probably better prepared than any company in the industry to deal with that you know massive change happening from a code based standpoint I've heard you good presentation on you know the history of Linux and kubernetes and what's going forward so when it comes to the release of kubernetes where are you would open ship and how should people be thinking about you know upgrading from version yeah another excellent points to it's you've been following this pretty closely over the years so we're where we came at this was we actually learned quite a bit from our experience the company with OpenStack and so what would happen the OpenStack is you'd have customers that are on a certain version OpenStack and they kept saying hey look you know we want to consume clothes of drugs we want new features we will move faster and you know we'd obviously spend some time right from the release in community to actually shipping our distribution into customers and you know there's gonna be some more time for testing in QE to happen and some integration points that need to be certified before we make it available we often found that customer all right so they'd be let's say a small subset if you will within every customer or several customers who want to be close could you close the trunk majority actually wanted the stability especially as you know time wore on right they were Wonder sensibility and you can understand that right because now if you've got mission-critical applications running on it you don't necessarily want to go ahead and and you know put that at risk so the challenge that we addressed when we actually started shipping OpenShift for last summit right so so about a year ago was to say how can we provide you basically a way to help upgrade your clusters you know essentially remotely so you can upgrade if you will your clusters or at least be able to consume them at different speeds all right so what we introduced with open shop for was this ability to give you the on the over-the-air updates right so best we think about it is with regard to a phone all right so you know you have your phone you know new OS upgrades show up you get a notification you turn it on and you say hey look pull it down or you say it's their important time or you can go off and delay you know I do it a different point in time that same notion now exists within open show right which is to say we provide you three channels right so there's a stable channel where you're saying hey look you know maybe this cluster is production no no rush here you know I'll stay you know add or even even little further behind there's a fast Channel right for hey I want to be up latest and greatest or there's a third channel which allows for essentially features that are being in developed or still in early stage of development to be pushed out tree so now you can start you know consuming these upgrades based on hey I've got a dev team you know they want here with these quicker you know I've got these you know application that stable production right no rush it and then you can start managing that you know better yourself right so now if you will do that here will be that we're introducing into a kubernetes platform us the under kubernetes platform but adding additional value to be able to have that be managed much much in a much better fashion that observed the different needs of different if an organization allows for them to move at different speeds but at the same time gives you that same consistent platform with all this way running all right so a chef we started out the conversation talking about open shift anywhere and everywhere so you know in the cloud you talked about you know sitting on top of vmware vm farms very prevalent the data centers you know or bare bare metal i believe if i saw right one of the updates for open shift is how RedHat virtualization is you know working with open shift there and you know a lot of people out there kind of staring at what vmware did would be sore seven so maybe you can set it up a little bit of a compare contrast as to how you know red hats doing this rollout versus what you're seeing your partner vmware doing for how kubernetes fits into the virtualization fire yeah I feel like we're both approaching it from you know different perspective and land set that we come at it right so if I can the VMware perspective is likely hey look you know there's all of these installation in the vSphere you know in the marketplace you know how can we make sure that we help you know bring containers there and they've come up with a solution that you can argue is quite complicated in the way how they're achieving it our approach is different one right so we've always you know looked at this problem from the get-go with regard to containers is a new paradigm shift right it's not necessarily a revolution because most companies that we're looking at are working with existing application services but it's an evolution and in the way you know you're thinking about the world but this is definitely the long-term future and so how can we then think about you know introducing this environment this application platform into your environment and then be able to build or build a new application in it but also bring in existing applications to before and so with this release of open ship what we introducing is something a bit for calling open ship virtualization now which is if you got existing applications that sit in VMs how can we ensure that we bring those VMs into the platform but you know they've been certified their security boundaries around it or you know constraints or reforms have been put by your own internal organization around it and we can keep all of those but then still encapsulate that VM as a container have that be run natively within an environment and orchestrated by open ship you know kubernetes as the primary Orchestrator of those VMs just like it does with everything else that's cloud native orb or is running directly as container as well we think that's extremely powerful for us to really bring now the promise of urban Eddie's into a much wider market rights I talked about 79 customers you can argue that that 1700 is the early majority right or who else are the the almost scratching of the surface of the numbers that we believe will adopt this platform to get if you will the next if set of whatever five ten twenty thousand customers will have to make sure we meet them where they are now that you're introducing this notion of saying we can help migrate with a you know a series of tools that were also providing these VM based applications and then have them run within kubernetes in a consistent fashion it's going to extremely powerful really excited by it by those capabilities that predict that to our customers well I I think that puts a great exclamation point as to how we go from these early days off to you know the vast majority of environments yes once again congratulations to you and the team on the growth of momentum all the customer stories you know I've loved the opportunity to talk to many of the Red Hat customers about their digital transformation and how your cloud platform has been a piece of it so once again always a pleasure to catch up with you likewise thanks a lot Stuart good chatting with you and hope to see you in person soon absolutely.we at the cube of course hope to see you at events later in 2020 for the time being we of course fully digital always online check out the cube net for all of the archives as well as the event including all the digital ones that we are doing I'm sue minimun and as always thanks for watching the cube [Music]

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering Cook Con Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm student of my co host is Corey Quinn and happy to welcome back to the program. Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native and happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright. So, Corey, I got really excited when he saw this Because server lists, uh, is something that, you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, Kay native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging the solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server. Listen, you know, we understand that world, they're spectrums, and there's overlap. So maybe is that is a set up. You know what is the service. Working groups, you know, Charter, Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use? It went out through it. Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen staff in general. What should they do? Do next and basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services, when it's appropriate >> stuff like that >> to what should wait. I'm sorry I'm getting somebody thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And, third, >> what should we >> do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability portability, stuff like that. And one of the low hang your food so they identified was, Well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we can do and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cloud events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said. Specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and run it. I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that point is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers things like event base, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a one of the key. Thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think Canada does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do If you want to think of it as a pass. Go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything else. >> So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says, No, you gotta know about networks, Congress on values, that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could. This stuff that you deploy on K native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is a first. It was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience, time or on Lee runs in certain run times, or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed, But again, it's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now. Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the service features it offers up, became these simplified incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you can deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seemed very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about sort of the merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said, when to use one versus the other. And I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going the future. I don't know the honest They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of is what already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick technology gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most part, I think it was really more about Kenya than anything else yesterday. >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to seriously with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also so the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The solution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your >> mind? Um, so this is hardly the answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is. I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It was good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around, they would say, You know when to use viens roses containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life would be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured >> thank you Usual response back. Teo >> I'LL give you the tough one. The critical guy had in Seattle when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws lambda, and number two is probably as your functions and as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated since then. I talked a little startup called I Believe his Trigger Mash that that has made some connections between Lambda on K Native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary. Tightly integrated and leveraging the carbonates features the way Kay native is doing, and I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it. I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there and his heart feel the choose and what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure like communities is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, obviously. >> Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff, obviously, through the eventing side of a native. We do. But from a serving perspective, I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have to be >> honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> about >> fifteen live from basically about a room that is a common club native con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The >> Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm stupid in my co host is Corey Quinn and having a welcome back to the program, Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native. And he happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright, So Corey got really excited when he saw this because server Lis is something that you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, k native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging a solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server lists. And, you know, we understand that world. They're spectrums and there's overlap. So maybe as that is a set up, you know, What is the surveillance working groups? You know, Charter. Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use that went out through it? Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen stuff in general. What do they do next? And basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services when it's appropriate stuff like that. Two. What should wait? I'm sorry I'm getting somebody Thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And third, what should we do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability, portability stuff like that and one of the low hang your food should be identified was, well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we could do, and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cod events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and running, I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that viewpoint is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers, things like event based, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a the monkey thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think he does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do. If you want to think of it as a pass, go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything >> else. So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says No, you gotta know about Network Sing Gris on values that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could stuff that you deploy on. K Native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is at first it was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience time or it only runs in certain run times. Or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air Corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial. I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed. But again, that's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now, Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the serval ISS features it offers up, became these simplified, incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you could deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seem very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about that sort of merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said when you use one verse of the other and I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going in the future. I don't know. Be honest. They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of years would already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick the technology. It gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most parts, I think it was really more about Kaneda than anything else. Yesterday, >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to Syria to see with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The absolution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your mind? >> Um, >> so this is hardly an answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It is good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around. They would say, You know when to use BMS vs Containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life will be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured with >> thank you. That's the usual response back. So don't >> go. I'Ll give you the tough one critical guy had in Seattle. Okay, when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws Lambda, and number two is probably as your functions. And as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated. Since then, I talk to a little startup called Believers Trigger Mash, that that has made some connections between Lambda Ah, and a native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary, tightly integrated and leveraging the community's features the way Kay Native is doing. And I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it? I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there, and it's hard for people to choose. And what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure? Like Who Burnett is is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, >> obviously. Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff. Obviously, through the eventing side of a native we do went from a serving perspective. I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have >> to be honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one. Really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone here. Live Cube coverage in San Francisco for Google Clouds Conference call Google Next twenty nineteen. Hashtag Google next nineteen. I'm John for us to meet him in and Dave along with a special Cuban sites. Guess Cory Quinn, Cloud a calm said Duck Bill Group will also be filling in as a host on the Cube at a variety of Cloud native shows. Corey, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you again. Thanks for coming >> on. Great to see me again. Thank you for having me >> and still you looking beautiful. Brilliant is always Dave. You're handsome. Okay, we're here in the Cube, breaking it down our guys. Seriously, let's let's let's wrap this up real quick. And then we'LL get into some of the fun conversations around some of the observations. But Day one's over. Clearly, Anthos is not just the rebrand. Although the CMO clearly talked about how wow has done that, they want to add more stuff into it. So that's the big topic here. We saw the migration tool and those migrate and then a lot of sun apogee here. AP eyes thoughts on Day one. >> Yes, eso John Anthos. I'm still trying to squint through it a little bit, and it's it's more than just Cooper Netease. We know that Google has a strong position, and being the open cloud is they've been saying for a couple of years. But you know what? Air these services who? The partners, How is this different from the, You know, dozens of Cooper, Nettie says. Solutions that are out there. So there's great buzz here at the show, Really good attendance here. A lot of really smart people. So we expect that coming off Google show So good start Day one. It was really excited to dig with you on some of the answers stuff as well as some of the surveillance pieces, which I've got some commentary on >> our partner and Chan sent a lot of time on the state. Duggan Cory, I know you've been putting in your ear the ground. What's happening? What do you see what he reporting? What have you collected? The >> I think one of the biggest things that I'm seeing in this entire conference to date has been almost a mind shift change. I mean, this is conferences called Google Next, and for a long time that's been one of the biggest problems. They're focusing on what's next rather than what is today, and they're inventing the future to almost at the expense of the present. I think the big messaging today was both about reassuring enterprises that yes, they're serious about this and also building a narrative where there now talking about coming at this from a position of being able to embrace customers where they are and speak their language? I think that that's transformative for Google. And it's something I don't think that we've seen them do seriously, at least not for very long. >> Dave. We've been talking about this all the time. Do they have the enterprise? Charles. We've been following the new team. When Diane Greene came in here to put the pieces together, it was a tough job. She had. They put the pieces together. But as Cory's pointing out, some one's like they're growing up now, saying Okay, we gotta realize that customers matter, not just addict attack or the future. This has been an Amazon playbook, customer, customer, customer and build a product. Customers. It seems to be your thoughts on this. >> Well, so I think Corey made a good point is they're always looking at the future. And if you want to get beyond search male and maps, I got to solve a problem today. And I'm not sure exactly like you said Stew. What problem Anthos is solving. I think it may still be a little early for this multi cloud management, but I think it is coming, you know, look, to think about how Amazon talks. Well, we're gonna eliminate heavy lifting. Microsoft clearly is got a software, a state that they could help you connect, you know, Oracle. Same. Same who? Google. It's always been about the tech and the future, and they're starting to get there, but still about to me, the tech and the future. >> It's a tragic Corey. I remember. I believe you were quoted in ah. News article recently is that Amazon listens to customers and Google historically talks to customers and tells them this is the way you should be doing it with a new Google. Now, >> I don't know. I don't think you change anything. Is biggest Google overnight. I think that there's a long story tradition of the Google engineer being the smartest person in the room. Just ask them. I'm kidding. You won't have to ask them. They're going to tell you on prompted. And I think that has to change because fundamentally addressing developers is a great way of building traction. It's a great way of getting to where they tend to be. But developers generally do not sign fifty million dollar deals. Well, more than once anyway. >> Well, this is a good point. This pretty customer attraction, which I think they've shown chops for the work they're doing that cnc f with continued open source. Great. But then when you got to go support the open source when you got to start putting lays together, this is where you start to get into procurement. Some requirements operations, security, a whole new level of grinding it out. I mean, the enterprise is a grind it out game. Google now has to go down that road stew. Dave, Corey, do you think they're ready? You think they're ready to grind it out? >> Way talked about in our kickoff this morning. Partnerships are critical and they had a bunch of really good ones up on stage this morning. You know, Cisco, VM wear some good ones to hang your hat on. You know, I would like to see more from an application standpoint as to where they sent him then they But you >> know, there's no question. I mean, I think there's an emphatic yes. Why? Because they got the global scale. They got the world's biggest cloud. They get a ton of dough. You know, we always say, though the best tech doesn't always win, and that's true. But usually the best tech runs out of money or they give up. You know, I don't see that happening in, >> Well, it's in the >> midterm or even semi long term for Google. So So I do think they have the chops to grind it out. >> I mean, I think they have attack. I've always said that love some of their tech, but they try to force Google Tech down the enterprise throats over the years. And I think Diane Green realized that that was the start of seeing real product management shop start to come in some of the work that they know they gotta get down and dirty on But to me it's a story that matters. The story has to be there. I think we're starting to see here, at least from my observation story of customers. So get in salt, create value, think this whole positioning of we want to be the open cloud where they say, Oh, you want to negotiate your contracts Don't want lock in You want developer productivity and you want operations I think it's a smart play by Google Stew. I think that's a good move. And again there, the dark horse in this. They don't have a lot to lose by going changing the game, changing the rules. Amazon, certainly in the lead, has a lot to lose, but they're so far ahead. Google just kind of catch up pretty quickly if they make the right moves. >> T K is making a lot of the right moves, but there's only so much it can be done so quickly. When you wind up in a story like we're seeing right now with customers who are taking workloads and haven't really been touched in there on from environments since nineteen ninety eight and they're migrating them into a GP environment and GPS formal deprecation Policy says We'LL give you one year's notice before turning anything off once it goes, g et. That's no time at all For an enterprise. Wait, we might have to move again. Absolutely not. It's still a language >> A C enterprise's years just to figure out Should we move? And where do we dio >> exactly their enterprise to go out of business and some of their divisions wouldn't know for five >> years. So is Google. What's what's the reaction when you press them on this, >> uh, usually starts with well, actually, And then they breathe and they reach for a whiteboard to show me exactly why I'm wrong. And then I lose interest and wander off, at which point they realized, Wow, you have no attention span for anything. Would you like to work here? And so far no dice, but we'LL see. >> So that's it. Well, that's a good business model, right? I think. Still your reaction to that? I mean, yeah, I read that they support rail For what? A deck like zillions of years. Right. This is what an example of how an enterprise needs to behave. >> Well, right, John Thie question we've had for a number of years is, you know, can cos b'more googly on DH. You know, the message here seems to be more. We're going to meet you where we are. We're going to be able to work with you on that. But there's some of those underlying things that Cory brings out that that need to change here. So that's a big change for Google. >> So what is the story that we heard from from Thomas carrying today? He said, Hybrid cloud Mina multi cloud, consistent framework with standard infrastructure in a platform to secure and manage data across the enterprise. Okay, sounds good. A lot of work to be done there. If you think about I mean, look at Amazon hybrid guard. If you announce outposts doesn't shift till later this year, it's a one small slice. There's got to be partnerships. There's gotta be an ecosystem to deliver on those three components of the vision on the story, and I say there's a lot of work to be done there now. What I do like about it is I do think that that multi cloud is a problem. I don't think thus far from most enterprises, it's a strategy I think it's if in multi vendor and so it will become a problem. The question I have is who's going to be in the best position to solve that problem? And you pointed out today still, well, Google has got VM wears a partner. Sisko is a partner. Red Hat as a partner. You know, IBM and Red Hat sort of lining up on that. Maybe service now tries to get into that game, but it's a wide open space. It's jump ball. >> Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things that I worry a little about and, you know, love. Corey's opinion on this is, you know, Google. Absolutely. If you talk about the container space, clear leadership, you know, first time I heard about containers, Google was front and center. They're leading this Cooper Netease march, but communities isn't magic, and even their server lis move movement. John and I interviewed Polly today, and it's very much, you know, Kay Native, we're going to take your containers and Goober Netease and extended service. That's not what I hear from you know, customers that I talked to today that are doing survivalists according what? What? What? What's your take there. >> I think that you sort of see almost the same problem emerging both with that narrative and the current multi cloud approach. It's It's not the fact that I can take this arbitrary code and Ronit anywhere that makes something server. Lis. We have a restaurant to run code or a raspberry pie or a burning dumpster with enterprise logo on the side of it that does. That isn't what's interesting. That isn't what delivers value to customers. It's the event model for starters, and I think right now that's not quite there. A lot of stuff. It's been announced and is coming out as we speak. And various block Post is still http endpoint activated, which means that you're not quite to an event model separately. What we're seeing with Anthos and the current approach to multicloud is you can deploy this to any cloud provider you'd like. Well, yes, in so far is a cloud provider to you is a bunch of disc, a pile of VMs and a network, and that's about it. That's not a cloud in the modern sense that is effectively outsourcing your data center and you'll find it runs on money pretty quickly. Once you start down that path, it's the higher level services, these renovations. >> This brings up a good point and that I think what I'm seeing and this is what I think, A lot of people, it's very aspirational. Views on Google People love Google. They love. They know about Google and they hope that they're as good as Amazon tomorrow. And let's just face it, Amazon is way out front. So I think this expectations for Google that are a little bit to hide. I think what I'm hearing the executives, at least the positive side would be. They understand where they are. I mean, the fact that we're not home on edge and I ot and all these other things, it means that they're still in foundational mode, in my opinion. So I mean, think about it. They're just getting their act together, building that foundational things. So I think they're cautious because we're not hearing about the eye ot. We're not hearing about some of the more advanced challenges that the enterprise is air. Having heard a little bit about from the sigh from a group that came on about data migration, Sata, Gata so OK, they got database at the Big Cloud. Big table, Big queer. OK, great stuff. Ml So data, certainly in their wheelhouse. But outside of that, I mean they're still foundational. So >> tomorrow's product day, though. So you know he may be here more there. I'm surprised they didn't hear more about machine intelligence. Give it. No, they talked about a little bit. But this company is the leader in a >> way. Maybe that's part of the issue. And I think that there is no question that when you want something far future that looks like robots from space Bill, you go to Google. You know that. I think there's a lot less of an awareness that Okay, I just need a bunch of the EMS to run somewhere, and I feel like that is more or less. It's a story of today, >> and you know Google. I mean, like their story. You know, I love the code cloud code, cloud run, cloud building. They have all the right. Like Jeff Bob's like linguistic that gets my attention. You get is kind of like it feels like it feels like they're really close. It's getting so >> far away. Cultures also extremely hard. You have a bunch of execs that have just shown up from Oracle seemingly yesterday in these terms, and there's a lot of knee jerk reactions of, Oh, Google is now taking on a bunch of Oracle approaches, like hiring sales people and talking to customers. That's not a bad thing. Meanwhile, the executives who come Teo out of Oracle after decades there and are now working at Google. We're having to adjust to a more rapid pace of innovation to this new world in which they have customers that don't actively hate. Um, and it's turning into a very different story for everyone involved. I'm curious to see what comes out of it, but it's still very much earlier, >> and I think they could build fast. Like you said, they like Google's. The parties like him. What they don't like about Google is responsiveness and being, you know, the white gloves they need. They need to have that kind of service ability. >> And Google also, by having a single overarching brand in the term of the word Google is their consumer efforts do wind up playing into people's perception of through the clouds like yes, we want Google to listen to us? No, not through our thermostats. >> Well, they got a lot of Regis developing. They got the footprint. Guys, great job student. Final comments. >> I mean, just you talk about the customer you've heard there was. You know, my comment. My comment on Twitter this morning that got the most reaction is you no question to retail or why are you choosing Google Cloud? Answer is, you're not Amazon, and you know, the long and short being the alternative to a leader in the market today. Not a bad thing. So Google has, you know, a good position at the market. They we always knew that they had great tak es o >> Also thing on that comments do is that I think in watching Google, I think I personally in critical of what they need to do more obviously. But they know their people are doing the work. I mean, you've got to grind it out to me. This is a grind it out game. It's on ly early. You gotta get the discipline up there. They got the right product management type chops and there Can they get those things done that Thomas Curry and, um, it's Avery can bring to the table and kind of shed the Oracle and put the New Jersey on and fight the battle with the new Google Way. That's going to be the tell Signe. >> Well, the hard part for me is it. So it's hard to measure. You see some logo's. You don't know what they're really buy. I mean, with them is on, you know, it's it's infrastructures of service. Microsoft. Okay, I'm not sure. How much is there Oracle? Clearly not sure, you know, etcetera. But so lookit Proof was talking to customers, right? Huh? How much they're actually adopting this stuff for riel Business problems. >> Yeah, not multi cloud if your infrastructure runs on a different cloud provider. But you're using g sweet. I mean that that's not really what people think of when they say multi cloud. But that is what analysts chalk it up as something >> it's a battle at least accomplishes lining up. You got Amazon, Microsoft, Google lying it up. It's the cube coverage wrapping it up with the team here day one of three days of wall to wall coverage. Stay with us. Go to the cube dot net the check out all the video silken angle dot com. We have a special report and a lot of constant flowing there, and we're back with more coverage tomorrow day, too. Thanks for watching.

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Google cloud next 19 taught to you by Google cloud and its ecosystem partners hello everyone welcome back to the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco the Moscone Center for the Google clouds conference is called Google next 2019 I'm Chevrolet my costume in omim de Ville ante is also here doing interviews our next guest is probably Bob who's the VP of product and design for server lists at Google probably great to see you thanks for coming on thank you for having me so you'd be a you're the VP of Product you got the keys to the kingdom on the roadmap you're seeing all the announcements obviously server lists cloud run was announced cloud code was mentioned on stage that's going to come out tomorrow so code build run this is DevOps this is actually happening yeah you know what super exciting is that we've we're finally solving the problem for customers and taking a customer centric view of this I'll start off with a little bit of the journey we took to get here right as we were talking to customers they kept coming back to three things that they wanted from us the first thing they wanted was agility they understand that you know cloud could give them great cost savings but they also wanted to be able to move faster and innovate right the second bit they wanted was having the flexibility to be hybrid and multi-cloud super important especially to our largest customers and then the third piece was they've really struggled with his journey to cloud and they wanted our partnership to make it a much more seamless and non-deceptive journey so as we talk to them about these three things right we came back to the drawing board and said hey what are the products that we can build to make their journey to be more cloud native and more agile much more seamless and future-proofed that much better right so we came back to the drawing board and came up with three products that you talked about this now the first was we looked at developers and their journeys and we said look they're building in traditional ideas like IntelliJ or vs code optimized for local development right and they're not writing a lick of Yama they're right for kubernetes and we said okay how can we take those environments and help those development teams build cloud native apps really really easily so really just turbocharging their cloud native development so bill cloud code which extends their local ids and lets them deploy to remote clusters so they can get full debugging full deployment building its integrated in the cloud build and they get the full kubernetes a development environment right in place so cloud build was released earlier you got enhancements of that so news the hard news here is enhancements to cloud build cloud code as new announce here yeah cloud run announced today that's right so this is the new this is the new hard news that's right so bottom line what does it mean for a developer so like I didn't enterprise so I'm a cio I'm a site C so I'm gonna be putting all my eggs in the cloud basket I've still gonna run the on Prem day is gonna be critical to my strategy it's this early day set up time or are you guys thinking it's more about the setup or more the life cycle of CI CD pipelining all the way to application deployment a great question John so I think where we are in this journey is that enterprises have started off with something that's the most basic cloud ready workloads that have been lifted and shifted we now see the next wave of workloads this is the 80% of workloads that are still on premise we see them start to get cloud ready and cloud native and the way that their enterprises are gonna do that is by building on top of the standards we've created like kubernetes and sto and key native and what cloud cold and build and run and of course Anthes that we talked off this morning as well these are great managed solutions from Google fully managed solutions from Google that let you get cloud native fast all right Polly wonder if you can help us you know spin through I see a disconnect in the market so you know Google showed great leadership in the container space and of course kubernetes we came out of Google and when I look at like cloud run okay it's helping to connect that and Kay native to kubernetes in service when I talk to a lot of the developers and service it's not the infrastructure moving up the stack it's they didn't want to even think about it it's right built in the cloud that's right I focus on the application I don't even think about that so I've got this big gap as to you know on premises forget it I don't never want to touch it or think about it and you know the one of the reasons you know there's the term server list would put it to the side but now if I need one is this environment I don't want to think about it and we know hybrid is a reality but there's this big disconnect as to what kind of developer are you or you a DevOps person that came from an infrastructure background or are you just building apps today yeah yeah yeah we're definitely seeing that from our customers right so one thing that we hear all the time is developers don't want to just not think about infrastructure they actually want the managed service and the platform they're building on to think about the infrastructure and optimize it for them so it's not this program will infrastructure it it's cloud run programming the infrastructure for you so you don't have to do it and I think increasingly you're gonna see products like cloud run and anthos and cloud code let developers focus just on code because that's what they want to do right I don't ever seen a developer say I really want to write a Yama file or I want to set up more configuration parameters right so I think we're gonna get to the place where you have developers being able to focus on cold and all of the rest of this being taken care of by platforms like code and run and anthos automation becomes key I mean Jennifer Lynn's demo I thought was very game-changing because she made the comment developers can focus on their code and agility not access permissions and all the configuration management that goes on under the you guys gonna provide that in an automatic programmable way we're gonna believe he is and she kind of teased out service missions so service missions kind of point in the future which is app developers are gonna still need to be aware of maybe not aware of what cloud run how to manage those sirs as they come stand up and get pulled down dynamically yeah how do you view that because this has become a gonna become complex is that gonna be automated is that where cloud run comes in you expand on this whole impact of service meshes because that's the next level that's right that's right so if you think about key native it's built on kubernetes and it forms the kind of triad with sto as well right and what a product like cloud run does is it lets you not have to think about that because at the end of the day we don't want developers to have to think about K native what cloud run is it takes care of the K native portability and compatibility for you and all you do is focus on the code itself right so ultimately we want developers to focus on their applications but I will say this right we do care about another important constituent which is all of those folks who've already got an apps built out there can those workloads be serviced as well and that's part of the problem we're trying to solve it that's an operational thing all right so let's take a step back here so server list actually fanfare has been great we're seeing a lot of traction people are enamored by it because functions as a service has been very compelling whether it's retail managing you know that spiked loads and becomes we see some some use cases where it's like you know really an amazing thing where is it limiting what is the next level growth for server list where do you see you mention workloads and we see people deploying functions and being happy with it are there limitations with serverless how does it go to the next level can you take a minute to describe the current state of server lists and what's coming around the corner now so great question the first thing I'll say is that there's a ton of developers who come up to us every day and tell us cloud functions is awesome right and they really like functions as a service they like the event-driven approach to it they like the service full approach but several is provides love the programming model that's great but there's an another large contingent of developers who tell us look this is super constraining for what I want to do I don't get to choose the libraries I want you're forcing me into a particular programming model can you give me more flexibility and what they see every day is the flexibility that containers provide especially on kubernetes right and what we've tried to do with cloud run is try to bridge those worlds where you get all of the flexibility that you want right that you get with containers but then combine it with what what you really want with the operational model which is service right so you pay only for what you use and of course you get the agility of service as well now one thing that we've noticed heard some great stories about this is a customer of ours Veolia which is one of the early adopters of cloud run and they've been partnering with us we thank them for it they are running a complex workload you talked about retail what Veolia does is they're large French multinational they do energy water and environmental services these are things that need to be highly reliable very complex and these are workloads that have existed for ages right and what viola is doing is using cloud run to run that complex workload but in a service in a service full way running in a service fashion all right take a minute explain what's a complex workload for your definition what is a simple workload because guys again we love functions Stu and I always talk about how great it is but what's that what's the D mark line when when does something become complex by your standards where you guys are addressing they could think describe the characteristics of a complex workload so the first thing is does the workload require flexibility right meaning are their custom workloads sometimes even legacies C++ or C applications do they need to pull that functionality in as well right do they need to pull random artifacts from across the enterprise to combine it and sometimes these are things that have been built over 20 years ago they're really critical mission critical pieces of software that need to be able to trigger and run right and can we actually take that flexibility but also combine in with a highly reliable environment right so were close like New Orleans there is no downtime right they need to be up 24 by 7 for 365 days of the year right so that flexibility plus that level of reliability is what we look at when we look at complexes so you're getting into complex systems where you got some code may be written in a mainframe COBOL in C++ we mentioned that was my jamm what kind of old dating myself but that was state-of-the-art back in the 90s so I'm running an agile job maybe of standing up cloud native but I need a use software and data from a system that's where is that where the container piece comes that ku burning it on either kubernetes but cloud run also supports docker so let's say you're running it in a docker container all you need is a docker container image and we can host that workload on program yeah Polly help us understand where where Google kind of what what's the same one what's different compared to the other service offerings out there just what I've heard feedback the last year or two is you know the great thing about server list is it's really easy to get started I've talked to marketing people that have no coding background that you know can get off and running it but doing complex mission-critical stuff yeah like we understand you know there is no magic wand NIT no silver bullet to make it easy but you know what do you see as Google's role in in this broader marketplace and you know where does open-source fit into that too yeah yeah so first I'll start off by saying there's a whole host of functions that are running on cloud functions which are relatively lightweight simple targeted event-driven functions those work great where we see us really making a difference for our customers is in two ways the first is get these more complex workloads that are currently running in a container whether it's a docker container our and or on gke for that matter and bring the agility of service to those workloads so it's the first thing it's something that we think is very unique because combining containers with serverless the second bit really is the open approach we've taken right built on top of K native key native as you know has a number of partners so one of the cool demos that you'll see during during Google Cloud next is you'll see a workload being shifted from cloud run on gke to the IBM cloud IBM is one of our partners 4k native without a single line of code and that flexibility is something that I think customers really decided talk about the business pen and some of the benefits at the business level in a developer level at the operations level can you hit those three points yeah of serverless silikal server less on those three sectors what's the benefits yep so we talked about the benefits for developers for developers it's simply about agility focus on your own code don't worry about Gamal don't worry about ki native you don't have to worry about any of that we'll take care of it for you the second benefit that I'll talk about is again this is just a benefit for the CIO which is hey we're gonna give you the flexibility and the openness so you can have portability of your workloads across whatever and why are you environment you want whether it's on tram or in a cloud whether it's Google or another cloud that's the second benefit the third bit is all of the operational benefits of service one of the things you'll see us do and continue to commit to do is we'll bill you to the hundredth of a millisecond right and so you'll continue to get that with all of the resiliency you expect of Google infrastructure security also pretty much baked in as well security is big then there's a fully managed offering from Google and so you'll get security compliance policies all Big Data of course we watched the keynote and we watch every word from Koreans giving Diane green a little tip of the hat which was nice signal a lot of class a great respect for that but jennifer lynn said something i want to get your reaction to she was kind of talking about her thing doing a great demo he changing and when she said this would allow you to negotiate better contracts okay that might have been a slip of the tongue your reaction that that implied to me I took that and say whoa that means leverage shifts to the customer your thoughts and that kind of maybe a slip of the tongue but if you're saying that I couldn't have options and choice yes Janice pardon this is what customers want and at Google what we're focused on is giving customers what they want and one of the things that customers are worried about today is lock-in and especially in the server this area because the current offerings are so proprietary customers are worried about it because they want server lists for all the benefits offers that we talked about here but they do want that flexibility and that's what we negotiate actually we know Oracle is very strict on their cloud this is going to give customers the choice is the saying that's whoa you want a license renewal yeah that's what you're getting out here so Polly you talked about choice and flexibility you know kubernetes gives some of that concern with serverless is if I look at a sure if I look at AWS if I look at Kay native you know those three aren't the same I talked there there's a small start-up called trigger mesh that's getting Kay native to work with AWS lambda but do you see a future is there you know I've talked to the CMC F I've looked at some of the various pieces that you know serverless isn't just something that I'm baked into a cloud yeah look I think we've seen extraordinary momentum around Kay native it's very similar to what we had seen when in the early days of kubernetes this huge amount of ecosystem interest and so we'll see continued innovation where you'll see work load portability come to service and I'm confident in that because of all of the momentum we were seeing around Canada so we're committed at Google to K native and its success so you'll see us continue to innovate yeah talk about open source open source becomes a very strategic part you can Shin kubernetes which you guys were the that have the DNA the founding fathers of kubernetes now teams on the team went to vmware someone have Microsoft some stay within Google containers certainly we see what you guys have done when four against four J but open source still this fear of open source I mean I don't mean it in a way that it's going to be inhibited and primitive but support making sure s LA's work latency microservice is going to be involved you mentioned k- yeah so as open source accelerates the time then value for the code that also triggers this op side of the serviceability and reliability and support what's your thoughts on that how are you guys how do you see the industry supporting that that critical piece of the puzzle yeah could not be more critical right for customers to be able to adopt this because the number one thing that we need to do for customers is give them a managed offering that lets them not have to worry about security lets them not have to worry about compliance lets them not have to worry about policies or identity etc right bake all of that into the managed service and then the second operational bit is which is as important this goes to what Thomas talked about at the very end of his keynote which is the open source announcement is we want to make it simple for customers to adopt it will be supported by Google and the partner you'll get unified billing unified support and one person to call when you have a problem yeah Polly we're at an interesting point in open source today because they're they want to get your opinion as a product person and your relationship with open source because you know there's a certain cloud out there it's they're gonna give you open source as a managed service but you have some of the companies that are making like open source databases changing their policies to try to fight against just being you know taken over by somehow the big players how does Google react to that yeah for us the approach is all about partnership because we think together we can better serve customers needs and best serve them and so our approach has always been about partnership so whether it's kubernetes or key native or the larger manage store manager open source offerings that we talked about earlier in the keynote we want to bring all of these together so we can serve customers so you're gonna see us continue to like support the open source equals because we believe that innovation is absolutely critical to helping our customers really start innovated in be agile final question I know we're tight on time I want to get this in because you know I see a lot of positive I've come out of the show there's been some critical analysis around you've got to build up salespeople and all the field stuff which is you guys are well aware of but one of the things that was kind of teased out in the open source announcement was the role of Google having their own ecosystem Asli the C & C has been a big tailwind for Google you guys been a big part of that ecosystem as a cloud commercial provider and with these kinds of server list you're going to have an ecosystem starting to develop kind of a thousand flowers blooming pun intended so how do you see that in your area because this is going to be super important partnering ecosystem support yeah which is you know developer traction distribution of software integration opportunities that's why in monetization all kind of come together your thoughts huge hugely critical for us and that's something that we've been focused on we have a rich ecosystem of partners for service we're gonna continue to build it out across all of the different pieces you need one of the things we didn't talk much about was our entire operational stack monitoring logging all of those pieces right we need to bring all of those together along with all of our partners we have a big partnership with the likes of data dog right number of others so we're gonna continue to partner with the entire ecosystem so we can go solve the problems that they have are you guys gonna show them the white space where they can play is gonna be part of the strategy yeah so it's gonna be across the board you'll see us continue to support the key native ecosystem tremendously and like lean into that and we're already excited to see all the different offerings that are exist on key native same thing with kubernetes we're gonna continue to like press hard we've got on the operational side we've got an offering called open census it's got lots of traction again just open monitoring of applications so we're gonna continue to do that across the board yeah probably great to have you on vice president of product and design got the keys to the kingdom right here he's the who's running the show for the server list really the key part of how kubernetes really intersects old and new to create the next generation applications thanks for joining us and sharing the insight I'm Jeff forest do many men here live coverage Google next more coverage after this short break