>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering AWS Reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. Welcome >> back, everyone. Day two of live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS Amazon Web services. Inaugural conference called Reinforce. This is a Cloud security conference, the first of its kind. It's the beginning of what we see as a new generation of shift in now new category called Cloud Security. Obviously, Cloud has been growing. Security equation is changing and evolving. I got a great guest here. Colby Alan, who's a platform architect at ZIP with based in Seattle. Great for joining us. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. So we're chatting before we came on about your journey and your Dev ops chops you guys have built over there that I want to get into that just quickly explain what you guys do real quick. Set the context. >> Yes, it is on SMS text messaging provider way Specialize in toll free messaging. We also texting able landline phone numbers. Our business is kind of really split into two parts way. Have you know your traditional Sadd's application that ran runs like a sad That's where you can, you know, have the you I thio interface your landline phone number eight under number With that messaging, no, top that We run a carrier grade network. So we have direct binds into all the major carriers in the U. S. Bringing online some Canadian carriers. That's really where the power of our platform and we own the network on DSO way started Nicolo and over the last last year, which has spent nine months moving all that into Amazon and >> forget about that. So explain the architecture. You guys move yet polos with network you moved to Amazon with three people. Just classic devils. A lot of hard work, I'm sure take us through what happened. What was the old environment? And now what does it look like now? >> Yeah, so, you know, when I just started with, you know, they were interesting place. They were just starting a huge growth. And so at that point, they existed in a few data centers in the U. S. And running the empire workloads on or bare metal databases on. The problem was, there was just a scaling problem, right? I mean, we couldn't way We're looking at the type of scale we needed and trying to procure hardware. And we just couldn't physically get it fast enough with the right amount of budget. So I come from a previous place doing a job? Yes. I mean, that's kind of what I've done for a lot of years. So, you know, I convinced my boss stay here. Let's let's run the stats happen. Eight of us. So we built that ran it, launched our new version of arse as application in Amazon. And at that point, you know, our traffic skyrocketed. You know, I think last year we had somewhere to 180% growth, right? And, you know, our core infrastructure just wasn't surviving. Right is outages and problems. And so, you know, we took it and we we went to Amazon with it. And, you know, we rebuilt it all. And it was a really interesting thing, because Amazon was Luther releasing features and we were consuming them, right? Five. Siri's and Nitro came out, and we're like finally waken get performance of the networking interfaces. Then they released the D instances within ve Emmys, or like finally, our databases will survive and they can go fast enough, you know? And then we leveraging huge Aurore instances, real impact power, the back end of this thing. So you >> guys really tapped really? At the right time? You guys were growing. You saw the, you know, that scale potentially bursting. You saw the scale coming in growth coming in the company you could almost see. Okay, look, we got a plan. So you go to Amazon News Service is what's the impact on the staff has been any more people. What's been the impact on? >> Yeah, I think the big thing is the initial move. We did it for three of us. I mean, it was a lot of work. We spent a lot of time doing it. A lot of people, sleepless nights, a lot of long weekends. But now you know, we've got a really stable platform, and, you know, we were able to really continue processing our message. Growth is increased, and we know we haven't, you know, had to totally re architect things again, right? The architecture's work has grown and expanded. Stale ability has been fantastic for us. The performance, of course, is you know, some of >> the best walking commercial for eight of us, a question paper. But if you'll have that same experience, but what's interesting is you guys essentially are, in my opinion, representative of the trend that we're seeing, which is certainly in security as they catch up the devil. That's a big story here. Security now can level up with speed of the Dev ops kind of engineering philosophy and pointing, but it's it's the trend of building your own and a lot of companies. They're reinvesting in teams of people because they're close to the action and they can actually code if I quickly use cases that they know are bona fide, whether it's a low level platform service, primitive or right up into the app, using machine learning and data. So you know you have now that now you had security in there. This is where the action is and so cos I mean, I see the successful ones like you guys coming in saying You know what? Let's not boil the ocean over. Let's just solve one problem scale and then let's look at the service is that we can leverage to doom or take us through that philosophies. I think you guys were great example of that. >> So, I mean, if we touch on the security aspect, I think that that was a big thing is way. Don't run a dedicate security team. My team is the security team, right? And that was a big thing that both me and my director is. You know, we wanted the people building it to be doing the security. And, you know, the that was what was really, you know, easy with eight of us is, you know, we could turn on all these fancy features. It was just, you know, a flag and Terra formed all of a sudden way. Have encryption arrest. It's something we've never had before. So there's that. And then, you know, to the builder methodology be because we came from such a scrappy like way. Got to go fast, like we didn't have time to evaluate software bringing consultants, you know, it's so, you know, we kind of just kind of adopted that, you know, it's better for us a lot of times to kind of roll our own thing. Andan there, times where there's software that's a good fit for it. I mean, we do use some external vendors on things, and >> that's really more of a decision on the platform. But as you look at the platform engineer, you go. Okay, we gotta build here. Let's weigh No, he don't really is not me that be a core competency. Let's go look at some vendors for this, this and that. But ultimately, if you look at something that's really core, you can dig into it. And certainly with Kubernetes and with a lot of the service is coming out sas after taking eventually Cloud Native. >> Yeah, yeah, through you're you're so we're huge Criminality is 100% kubernetes everywhere, and I think that that's really been another big thing for us is you know, it's it's brought our application up a level to be able to integrate, be more reliable. I mean, you know where you used to have this external service discovery piece, and then you have your security peace. You know where kubernetes I can go deploy a container application. Describe it all at once, right? It's all in my coat config so I can audit it for our compliance sees. You know we can co to review for our compliance, sees but the same time I deploy the whole thing. I'm not. Here's this team to point the There's this other team then coming by trying to secure the app. It it's all together. >> The old way would have been kind of build it out, maybe use some software. Have all these silo teams. Yes, and that's kind of all kind of built in. >> Yeah, we kinda just opened it out, right? I mean, you know, from from arse, as teams leveraging a lot of, you know, the security features that are available to us to our core piece, which is a very different type of software, you know, is leveraging the same pieces and same type of monitoring principle. >> It's interesting, You know, the Kino. There's something people hemming and hard around, like the word Dev sec ops. I mean, I love Devon. We've been we've been part of that since day one. It's been fun to be part of it, but we saw the benefits of it. Clearly. You see, no doubt there's no debate. But when you start getting into some of the semantic definitions, go to security known feel that, by the way, is fragmented like crazy and now you get the growth of the cloud is starting to see cloud security become its own thing That's different than the on premises side. So what's your take on that? Because a lot of people are wanting their going to cloud anyway. So what's that they're saying on premise, security posturing and cloud security? In your opinion? >> Yeah, so I mean, it is drastically different. I think part of it's the tool set that's available, right? I mean, we ran data centers. I've automated data centers, but, you know, they're just not at the level of which I could do the automation in the auditing in the cloud. So I feel like I found actually, some respects makes it easier for me to do security on run security and audit security numbers. The data center. You know, I don't run a lot of tooling and a lot of things to get all the views. I need it, But there's a lot of really separate systems, you know, in the cloud you have, like this one. Nice, fundamental, a p I. That hi is a person who has to build the infrastructure can use, but it's the same a p I that I put my security had on that. Like I used to make security, right, security groups, things of that sort. It's all the same, right? I'm not having to learn five different applications has been really important for our team because, you know, my team comes from the vast majority of no true Dev ops Thio. You know, we've been upgraded from people in our knock, you know, and have them really just learned the one ecosystem >> is you don't want to fragment the team. Yeah, I don't wanna have five different skill sets, kind of >> their victims. We just We don't wanna have tools that only one person knew how to do right. We wanted people to take vacations right? And like, we don't want to have a tool that's like only only that person knows how to run it, nobody else does. And so >> that was the big thing for us. What you think about the show here, reinforce all say it's not an Amazon Webster's summit. They do the summits which assistance see a commercial version of reinventing regions. This is a branded show is obviously their cloud security going hard at it. What's your take. So far, >> I've really enjoyed it. I mean, so I've gone to some. It's I've been to reinvent for a few years spoken to reinvent once, you know? But, you know, those things were fun, but they're so big and there's so much going on, you know, it's it's refreshing to be in this reinforced conference and focus on the security side. Sitting talks were like, You have people getting into kms and like some of these really pivotal tools. Yeah, it's been really, really >> get down and dirty here. Yeah, And people talk to, you know, approachable >> without, like, having to deal with all of Amazon, right? I can focus on, like, this one little >> portion reinvent you kidding? Walked through the hallways just like >> yeah, I mean, Well, where one hotel Are you gonna >> be at that point now, right? Yeah. >> Okay. So I gotta ask you about the dev ops question. We've been commenting yesterday day Volonte, who is on his way in. He and I were talking with a lot of si sos and a lot of practitioners. And the conversation generally was security needs to catch up to Dev ops and to pay who you talk to. They may or may not believe that way. Think that to be true. We think security now has the level up with the speed of Dev ops from his agility things that are highlights. For example, you guys have What's your take on that when someone says, Hey, security's got to catch up the devil Is it really catching a prism or transformation? What's your view on this >> will be like when you say catching up like it takes a negative. You know, I don't want to be negative there on DSO. I feel like it's a transformation. That means the same thing of going from the data center as as just as an operational engineer to Amazon is, there wasn't catching up. It was you just changing everything you do and how you think. And I think you know that's That's the same thing that a lot of security people I've seen struggle with was their success. Life are the ones that have gone, and I understand that, like, >> what do you think is the most important story happening in this world security cloud security screen general that should be covered by media that should be covered by the industry that is covered him should be amplified Maur or isn't covered and should be talking about what's the what is the most important stories that should be told. >> Well, so again, you know, I'm a fundamental layer, so things to me that I are always over shouted or like, you know, just encryption, right? I mean, everybody's like train encryption on. But, you know, I feel that talks I've gone to today or deeper dives into that. I feel like, you know, the kms product of Amazon. I feel like is a very powerful product that isn't super talked about. It's been nice here because they talked about 100 like you go to reinvent you don't really see a lot of kms type things are crowded, just them. And, you know, I think it makes some of those very difficult products to run in a data center very easy. You know what you hear on the security side is unsecured, as three buckets are like. Security groups are in conflict. Configure it incorrectly. And you know, no one knows that commercial. Everyone knows that. You know Elasticsearch not turned into a new s three right compromises You choose your database of choice of public. But for me, I think it's like a part that I feel is missing with Amazon is the ease of use of like, clicking a button. And >> now I have >> full Aurora encryption by default >> and the service you can just turn on what's next for you guys. Give us a peek into some of the things they're working on. What excited about? >> So I mean, we're making Ah, big thing is, you know, so we spend a lot of building now we're kind of going back and really kind of wrapping are a lot of our compliance is so zip it is a hole has been working towards a lot of stock to type compliance, seize on things like that. So, you know, we've been working through governance and no deploying. You know, software that kind of is more actively watching our environment and alerting us or helping us make sure we're staying at C. I s type benchmark so that you know, when my boss comes to me and says, Show me that we're doing this, I can just say, Oh, here's dashboard. So we were really not like via more secure State is a big, big product that we're working with right now. We leverage cloud health and those kind of the two external vendors that we've really partnered with. And so, you know, this year's been adopting those into the system. That's when the eight of us side, you know, we still just run Cooper Nettie. So there's a lot going on in the Cuban aunties ecosystem that we're also working on. So, like, service, mash and things of that sort like, How can I take this idea of security groups in this least trust model infrastructural e up to kubernetes, which by default this kind of flattened open. And so, you know, we've been exploring envoy and sdo linker D or write our own, you know, you know, and looking through those things and and then again wrote, making more robust CCD pipeline. So container scanning vulnerability, protecting our edge way running cloudfront wife for a while. But, you know, a lot of this year's gonna be spent, you know, Evaluate Now you know, we deployed a lost about 10 and got it turned on right because it works. But diving more deeply into like some of the autumn mediations >> have a fun environment right now, is it? You can knock down some core business processes, scale them up, and then you got the toys to play with the open source front. You got kubernetes really a robust ecosystem. They're just It's a lot of fun. >> Yeah, Criminal has definitely been exciting to play with >> advice to fellow practitioners and platform engineers because, you know, you guys been successful with transmission A the best. You got your hands on a lot of cool things. You got a good view, the landscape on security side of the deaf, upside for the people out there who were like they want to jump in with a parachute open. Whatever makes you that nervous, Some people are aggressively going at it hard core. Some have cultural change issues. What's your invite? General advice to your >> fellow appears My advice is just jump in and do it right. I mean, you know, don't be afraid. I mean, we had a really fast transformation, and we failed a lot very fast, and we weren't afraid of it. I mean, you know, if we weren't failing, we weren't doing it right. You know, in my opinion, right. We had to fail a few times a year. I was gonna work. And so I think, you know, don't be scared to jump in and just build, you know, right the automation. See what it does. Run some tests against it. >> You know, it's almost like knowing what not to do is the answer. Get some testing out there, get his hands dirty. >> What's gonna work for you? What's gonna work for your business? And the only way you're going to do that is to actually do it. >> Showed up in specialized Colby. Thanks for coming and sharing the great insight. Kobe Alan, platform engineer for Zip Whip Great company here. The Cube. Bring all the action. Extracting the signal from the noise. Great insights. And here, coming from reinforced here in Boston, eight dresses. First conference around. Cloud security will be right back after this short break

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California at the Cube Studios at the Cube headquarters. I'm John for the host, like you were a Dustin Kirkland product manager and Google friend of the Cuban. The community with Cooper Netease been on the Cube Cube alumni. Dustin. Welcome to the Cube conversation. >> Thanks. John's a beautiful studio. I've never been in the studio and on the show floor a few times, but this is This is fun. >> Great to have you on a great opportunity to chat about Cooper Netease yet of what you do out some product man's working Google. But really more importantly on this conversation is about the fifth anniversary, the birthday of Cuba Netease. Today we're celebrating the fifth birthday of Cooper Netease. Still, it's still a >> toddler, absolutely still growing. You think about how you know Lennox has been around for a long time. Open stack has been around these other big projects that have been around for, you know, going on decades and Lenox this case and Cooper nineties. It's going so fast, but It's only five years old, you know. >> You know, I remember Adam Open Stack event in Seattle many, many years ago. That was six years ago. Pubes on his 10th year. So many of these look backs moments. This is one of them. I was having a beer with Lou Tucker. J J Kiss Matic was like one of the first comes at the time didn't make it, But we were talking about open stagger like this Cooper Netease thing. This is really hot. This paper, this initiative this could really be the abstraction layer to kind of bring all this cloud Native wasn't part of the time, but it was like more of an open stack. Try and move up to stack. And it turned out it ended up happening. Cooper Netease then went on to change the landscape of what containers did. Dr. Got a lot of credit for pioneering that got the big VC funding became a unicorn, and then containers kind of went into a different direction because of Cooper duties. >> Very much so. I mean, the modernization of software infrastructure has been coming for a long time, and Cooper nutty sort of brings it all brings it all together at this point, but putting software into a container. We've been doing that different forest for for a lot of time, uh, for a long time, but But once you have a lot of containers, what do you do with that? Right? And that was the problem that Cooper Nettie solved so eloquently and has, you know, now for a couple of years, and it just keeps getting better. >> You know, you mentioned modernization. Let's talk about that because I think the modernization the theme is now pretty much prevalent in every vertical. I'll be in D. C. Next week for the Amazon Webster was public sector Summit, where modernization of governments and nations are being discussed. Education, modernization of it. We've seen it here. The media business that were participating in is about not where you store the code. It's how you code. How you build is a mindset shift. This has been the rial revelation around the Dev Ops Movement Infrastructures Code, now called Cloud Native. Share your thoughts on this modernization mindset because it really is how you build. >> Yeah, I think the cross pollination actually across industries and we even we see that even just in the word containers, right and all the imagery around shipping and shipping containers, we've applied these age old concepts that have been I don't have perfected but certainly optimized over decades of, actually centuries or millennia of moving things across water in containers. Right. But we apply that to software and boom. We have the step function difference in the way that we we manage and we orchestrated and administer code. That's one example of that cross pollination, and now you're talking about, like optimizing optimized governments or economies but being able to maybe then apply other concepts that we've come a long way in computer science do de bop set a good example? You know, applying Dev ops principles to non computer feels. Just think about that for a second. >> It's mind blowing. And if you think about also the step function you mentioned because I think this actually changed a lot of the entrepreneurial landscape as well and also has shaped open source and, you know, big news this this quarter is map are going to shut down due one of the biggest do players. Cloudera merge with Horton Works fired their CEO, the founder Michael. So has retired, Some say forced out. I don't think so. I think it's more of his time. I'm Rodel still there. Open source is a business model, you know. Can we be the red hat for her? Duped the red? Not really kind of the viable, but it's evolving. So open source has been impacted by this step function. There's a business impact. Talk about the dynamics with step function both on the business side and on how software's built specifically open source. >> You know, you and I have been around open source for a long, long time. I think it started when I was in college in the late nineties on then through my career at IBM. And it's It's interesting how on the fringe open source was for so long and such so so much of my BM career. And then early time spent onside it at Red Hat. It was it was something that was it was different, was weird. It was. It was very much fringe where the right uh, but now it's in mainstream and it's everywhere, and it's so mainstream that it's almost the defacto standard to just start with open source. But you know, there's some other news that's been happening lately that she didn't bring up. But it's a really touchy aspect of open source right now on that's on some of the licenses and how those licenses get applied by software, especially databases. When offered as a service in the cloud. That's one of the big problems. I think that that's that we're we're working within the open >> source, summarize the news and what it means. What's what's happening? What's the news and what's the really business? Our technical impact to the licensing? What's the issue? What's the core issue? >> Yeah, eso without taking judgment any any way, shape or form on this, the the the TL D are on. This is a number of open source database is most recently cockroach D. B. I have adopted a different licensing model that is nonstandard from an open source perspective. Uh, and from one perspective, they're they're adopting these different licensing models because other vendors can take that software and offered as a service, yes, and in some some cases, like Amazon like Sure, you said, uh, and offered as a as a service, uh, and maybe contribute. Maybe pay money to the smaller startup or the open source community behind it. But not necessarily. Uh, and it's in some ways is quite threatening to open source communities and open source companies on other cases, quite empowering. And it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. The tension between open sourcing software and eventually making money off of it is something that we've we've seen for, you know, at least 25. >> And it continues to go on today, and this is, to me a real fascinating area that I think is going to be super important to keep an eye on because you want to encourage contribution and openness. Att the same time we look at the scale of just the Lenox foundations numbers. It's pretty massive in terms of now, the open source contribution. When you factor in even China and other nations, it's it's on exponential growth, right? So is it just open source? Is the model not necessarily a business? Yeah. So this is the big question. No one knows. >> I think we crossed that. And open source is the model. Um, and this is where me is a product manager. That's worked around open source. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to create commercial offerings around open source. I spent 10 years at Economical, the first half of which, as an engineer, the second half of which, as a product manager around, uh, about building services, commercial services around 12 And I learned quite a few things that now apply absolutely to communities as well as to a number of open source startups. That that I've advised on DH kind of given them some perspective on maybe some successful and unsuccessful ways to monetize that that opens. >> Okay, so doesn't talk about Let's get back to Coburg. And so I think this is the next level Talk track is as Cooper Netease has established itself and landed in the industry and has adoption. It's now an expansion votes the land adopted expand. We've seen adoption. Now it's an expansion mode. Where does it go from here? Because you look at the tale signs things like service meshes server. Listen, you get some interesting trends that going to support this expansionary stage of uber netease. What is your view about the next expansion everyway what >> comes next? Yeah, I I think I think the next stage is really about democratizing communities for workloads that you know. It's quite obvious where when communities is the right answer at the scale of a Google or a Twitter or Netflix or, you know, some of these massive services that it is obviously and clearly the best answer to orchestrating containers. Now I think the next question is, how does that same thing that works at that massive scale Also worked for me as a developer at a very small scale helped me develop my software. My small team of five or 10 people. Do I need a coup? Burnett. He's If I'm ah five or 10 person startup. Well, I mean, not the original sort of borde vision of communities. It's probably overkill, but actually the tooling has really advanced, and we now >> have >> communities that makes sense on very small scales. You've got things like a three s from from Rancher. You've got micro Kates from from my colleagues at economical other ways of making shrinking communities down to something that fits, perhaps on devices perhaps at the edge, beyond just the traditional data center and into remote locations that need to deploy manage applications >> on the Cooper Netease clustering the some of the tech side. You know, we've seen some great tech trends as mentioned in Claudia Horton. Works and map Our Let's Take Claudia and Horton work. Remember back in the old days when it was booming? Oh, they were so proud to talk about their clusters. I stood up all these clusters and then I would ask them, Well, what do you doing with it? Well, we're storing data. I think so. That became kind of this use case where standing up the cluster was the use case and they're like, OK, now let's put some data in it. It's a question for you is Coburn. Eddie's a little bit different. I'm not seeing they were seeing real use cases. What are people standing up? Cuban is clusters for what specific Besides the same Besides saying I've done it. Yeah, What's the what's the main use case that you're seeing this that has real value? >> Yeah, actually, there's you just jog t mind of really funny memory. You know, back in those big data days, I was CEO of a startup. We were encrypting data, and we were helping encrypt healthcare data for health care companies and the number of health care companies that I worked with at that time who said they had a big data problem and they had all of I don't know, 33 terabytes worth of worth of data that they needed to encrypt. It was kind of humorous sometimes like, Is that really a big, big data problem? This fits on a single disc, you know, Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting how >> that the hype of of the tech was preceding. The reality needs needs, says Cooper Nettie. So I have a Cuban Eddie's cluster for blank. Fill in the blank. What are people saying? >> Yeah, uh, it's It's largely about the modernization. So I need to modernize my infrastructure. I'm going to adopt the platform. That's probably not, er, the old er job, a Web WebSphere type platform or something like that. I'm investing in hardware investing in Software Middle, where I'm investing in people, and I want all of those things to line up with where industry is going from a software perspective, and that's where Cooper Nighties is sort of the cornerstone piece of that Lennox Of course, that's That's pretty well established >> canoes delivery in an integration piece of is that the pipeline in was, that was the fit on the low hanging fruit use cases of Cooper Netease just development >> process. Or it's the operations it's the operations of now got software that I need to deploy across multiple versions, perhaps multiple sites. Uh, I need to handle that upgrade ideally without downtime in a way that you said service mash in a way that meshes together makes sense. I've got a roll out new certificates I need to address the security, vulnerability, thes air, all the things that Cooper and I used to such a better job at then, what people were doing previously, which was a whole lot of four loops, shell strips and sshh pushing, uh, pushing tar balls around. Maybe Debs or rpm's around. That is what Cooper not he's actually really solves and does an elegant job of solving as just a starting point. And that's just the beginning and, you know, without getting ve injury here, you know, Anthros is the thing that we had at Google have built around Cooper Netease that brings it to enterprise >> here the other day did a tweet. I called Anthem. I just typing too fast. I got a lot of crap on Twitter for that mission. And those multi cloud has been a big part of where Cubans seems to fit. You mentioned some of the licensing changes. Cloud has been a great resource for a lot of the new Web scale applications from all kinds of companies. Now, with several issues seeing a lot more than capabilities, how do you see the next shift with data State coming in? Because God stateless date and you got state full data. Yeah, this has become a conversation point. >> Yeah, I think Kelsey Hightower has said it pretty eloquently, as he usually does around the sort of the serval ist movement and lets lets developers focus on just their code and literally just their code, perhaps even just their function in just their piece of code, without having to be an expert on all of the turtles all the way, all the way down. That's the big difference about service have having written a couple of those functions. I can I can really invest my time on the couple of 100 lines of code that matter and not choosing a destro choosing a cougar Nati is choosing, you know, all the stack underneath. I simply choose the platform where I'm gonna drop that that function, compile it, uploaded and then riff and rub. On that >> fifth anniversary, Cooper Netease were riffing on Cooper Netease. Dustin Circle here inside the Cube Cube Alumni you were recently at the coop con in overseas in Europe, Barcelona, Barcelona, great city. Keeps been there many times. Do was there covering for us. Couldn't make this trip, Unfortunately, had a couple daughter's graduating, so I didn't make the trip. Sorry, guys. Um, what was the summary? What was the takeaway? Was the big walk away from that event? What synthesized? The main stories were the most important stories being >> told. >> Big news, big observations. >> It was a huge event to start with. It was that fear of Barcelona. Um, didn't take over the whole space. But I've been there a number of times from Mobile World Congress. But, you know, this is this is cube con in the same building that hosts all of mobile world Congress. So I think 8,000 attendees was what we saw. It's quite celebratory. You know, I think we were doing some some pre fifth birthday bash celebrations, Key takeaways, hybrid hybrid, Cloud, multi Cloud. I think that's the world that we've evolved into. You know, there was a lot of tension. I think in the early days about must stay on. Prem must go to the cloud. Everything's there's gonna be a winner and a loser and everything's gonna go one direction or another. I think the chips have fallen, and it's pretty obvious now that the world will exist in a very hybrid, multi cloud state. Ultimately, there's gonna be some stuff on Prem that doesn't move. There's going to be some stuff better hosted in one arm or public clouds. That's the multi cloud aspect, Uh, and there will be stubborn stuff at the edge and remote locations and vehicles on oil rigs at restaurants and stores and >> so forth. What's most exciting from a trans statement? What do you what? What's what's getting you excited from what you see on the landscape out there? >> So the tying all of that to Cooper Netease, Cuban aunties, is the thing that basically normalizes all of that. You write your application put it in a container and expect to communities to be there to scale that toe. Operate that top grade that to migrate that over time. From that perspective, Cooper nineties has really ticked, ticked all the boxes, and you've got a lot of choices now about which companies here, you're going to use it and where >> beyond communities, a lot of variety of projects coop flow, you got service messes out there a lot of difference. Project. What's What's a dark horse? What's something that sets out there that people should be paying attention to? That you see emerging? That's notable. That should be paying attention. To >> think is a combination of two things. One is pretty obvious, and that's a ML is coming like a freight train and is sort of the next layer of excitement. I think after Cooper, Netease becomes boring, which hopefully if we've done our jobs well, that communities layer gets settled and we'll evolve. But the sort of the hockey stick hopefully settles down and it becomes something super stable. Uh, the application of machine learning to create artificial intelligence conclusions, trends from things that is sort of the next big trend on then I would say another one If you really want the dark horse. I think it's around communications. And I think it's around the difference in the way that we communicate with one another across all forms of media voice, video chat, writing, how we interact with people, how we interact with our our tools with our software and in fact, how our software in Iraq's with us in our software acts with with other software that communications industry is, it's ripe for some pretty radical disruption. And you know some of the organizations and they're doing that. It's early early days on those >> changes. Final point you mentioned earlier in our conversation here about how Dev Ops is influencing impacting non tech and computer science. Really? What did you mean by that? >> Uh, well, I think you brought up unexpectedly and that that you were looking at the way Uh, some other industries are changing, and I think that cross pollination is actually quite quite powerful when you take and apply a skill and expertise you have outside of your industry. But it adds something new and interesting, too, to your professional environment. That's where you get these provocative operations. He's really creative, innovative things that you know. No one really saw it coming. >> Dave Ops principles apply to other disciplines. Yeah, agility. That's that's pointing down waterfall based processes. That's >> one phenomenal example. Imagine that for governments, right to remove some of the like the pain that you and I know. I've got to go and renew my license. My birthday's coming up. I gotta go to renew my driver's license. You know much. I'm dreading going to the the DMV Root >> Canal driver's license on the same. Exactly >> how waterfall is that experience. And could we could we beam or Mohr Agile More Dev Autopsy and some of our government across >> the U. S. Government's procurement practices airbase upon 1990 standards they still want Request a manual, a physical manual for every product violent? Who does that? >> I know that there are organizations trying to apply some open source principles to government. But I mean, think about, you know, just democracy and how being a little bit more open and transparent in the way that we are in open source code, the ability to accept patches. I have a side project, a passion for brewing beer and I love applying open source practices to the industry of brewing. And that's an example of where use professional work, Tio. Compliment a hobby. >> All right, we got to bring some cubic private label, some Q beer. >> If you like sour beer, I'm in the sour beer. >> That's okay. We like to get the pus for us. Final question for you. Five years from now, Cooper needs to be 10 years old. What's the world gonna look like when we wake up five years from now with two Cuban aunties? >> Yeah, I think, uh, I don't think we're struggling with the Cooper nutties. Uh, the community's layer. At that point, I think that's settled science, inasmuch as Lennox is pretty settled. Science, Yes, there's a release, and it comes out with incremental features and bug fixes. I think Cuban aunties is settled. Science management of of those containers is pretty well settled. Uh, five years from now, I think we end up with software, some software that that's writing software. And I don't quite mean that in the way That sounds scary, uh, and that we're eliminating developers, but I think we're creating Mohr powerful, more robust software that actually creates that that software and that's all built on top of the really strong, robust systems we have underneath >> automation to take the heavy lifting. But the human creation still keeping one of the >> humans Aaron the look it's were We're many decades away from humans being out of the loop on creative processes. >> Dustin Kirkland, he a product manager of Google Uh, Cooper Netease guru also keep alumni here in the studio talking about the coup. Burnett. He's 50 year anniversary. Of course, the kid was president creation during the beginning of the wave of communities. We love the trend we love Cloud would left home a tec. I'm Sean for here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

>> From Seattle. Washington. It's the key you covering Goob Khan and Cloud Native Con North America. Twenty eighteen. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partner. >> Okay. Welcome back. It runs the cubes. Live coverage of three days Wall to wall here at Koop Khan and Cloud Native Khan, twenty eighteen in Seattle, where day three only actions happening. Mr Keep John for was to Minuteman where you have bread. French Compton, Tina. Director, Technical Market had read, had breaking down the container storage trends and directions. Costly containers are super important. That's happened. Communities has happened. Now. New things were happening around a lot of innovation. Thanks for coming on the Q. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me back. >> So what's the state of the art of containers of trends? Some of the market directions? What's going on around containers? >> Well, here at this show, of course, it's been all about service mesh. Right is Theo. Service mesh, dynamically dynamic discovery, dynamic invocation of services. But all of those things Well, a certain percentage of those things, according to Keynote, require some type of persistent so eso yet service message, service meshes and persistence. >> So storage is a big part of the networking and compute all working together. The cloud that's been a big part of it. What's what's important here in this show? What's going on this week. That's really impacting that piece of it. That container in storage you mentioned state versus stateless work area stateless is to find people from persistence in state become important and applications. How much conversation's been here this week on that piece >> we'll talk about this week, and then I'll talk about the last couple of weeks this week. There, there. Couple of significant thing is going on. They're going to sort of unleash innovation in persistence as it pertains to the coup bernetti subsystem. First, of course, is a container storage inter. See, you know, today, all the all of the volume plug ins have been entry. You want to change. You know, some vendor wants to change their their storage capabilities. They need to re compile the binaries. Very slow. Very, very non agile. Of course, with the advent of the container storage interface, it's okay. Here's the common interface. All the all the volume plugging providers right to that interface so they could. Then they Khun Iterated to their heart's content without having to change the the entry >> source. So the impact is what? Speed, agility, >> agility of innovation, allowing all those guys t innovate Kind of the second thing. That's so that's man of discussion this week. Another thing's been a discussion you've seen in the in some of the sessions and stuff is the operator framework, you know, coming a champion by the Coral West guys, of course. Now part of Red hat, the operator framework in terms of effectively automating things that human operators would do for complex subsystems. Such a CZ storage. Eso basic installation based basic upgrades, you know, monitoring those services. So when you know something falls over, what do you do with that type of stuff? So I'd say C s I container storage interface as well as operator from me. Those are some of the things have been talked about this week. I still want to go back. Talk about last week, but go ahead. >> I wonder if you could tease this out a little before. So, you know, lost five years. You know, container ization, Cooper Netease. You know, massive change the way we think about architectures. Things like networking in storage. I have often been the anchor to kind of hold us down to be ableto make changes faster. Virtual ization helped some, but you know, container ization. We're gonna have to fix some of these same things. What conversations you're having with customers, You know, give us the latest on the, you know, the state versus state falls we heard in the keynote. It was They said forty percent of deployments have, you know, st full applications out there spending on numbers. And, you know, it's definitely has been growing. And at least I can do it as opposed to, you know, two years ago, it was like, Okay, we're doing containers, but we're just going to stateless for now, and we'll try to figure out what architectures goingto work. Even a year ago at this show, I heard in the back rooms there were lots of arguments as to which one of the storage projects was going to lead and seems seems like we're getting some maturity. I hope we hope to give us some visibility is where we are, and you know what's working and what still needs to be done. >> So although the industry talks about serve earless there, not yet talking about data lists, the or storage lists. I mean, you know, if we threw out the basic principle of data gravity data is the sun around which applications services rotate And so even I mean, even stateless aps stateless app Still do I owe frequently? The io of stateless apse is, you know, be arrest Will puts and gets to an object store that actually brings me. So let's let's talk about let's unpack the stateless and then let's go to St ful. So I'm gonna come back. Tio some of the conversations. A couple of weeks ago, Red had announced the acquisition of Nuba and Israeli Company. So when you think about what new Bob Plus sef due to provide stateless aps with a common set of Davis, a common set of David data services across the hybrid and multi cloud so those stateless app saying, Okay, I'm going to do I'm going to rest well puts and gets. But, man, it's complicated. If I'm gonna have to develop to various proprietary protocols I've got, you know, the is your blob protocol. I've got a W. S s three. I'm talking Teo Google persistent disc. And then if I want to run hybrid, I'm also talking to SEF objects storage on premises. And if I'm a developer I'm thinking, man, Wouldn't it be nice if I had a common set of David data services, including common protocol to talkto all of those different cloud storage back end? So, Nuba some people kind of call it a cloud storage controller provides that kind of common data services. So things like common FBI protocol? Um, things like mirroring. So you you want to write, right Once you're uprights once and it smeared across the various cloud object storage back ends to facilitate easy migration. The second one I wanna uproot to move over here. Your data is already there. So that's, uh that's a couple of reasons. And some of the conversation from a couple weeks ago about how Nuba plus self are helping stateless aps get Teo hybrid and multi cloud >> this. I think that is a great point. You have a hybrid cloud and multi cloud coming around the corner, which is about choice, Right? But see, I CD pipe lining of having a consistent developer environment clearly is one of the main benefits we're seeing in this community here. Okay, I got some sulfur developers with crank teams move around that consistency, no matter where were the environment is just really good goodness. Their storage is interesting and data is that because you're right, the sun is the data and every is orbiting around it. That's the Holy Grail. This is what people want. They want addressable data. They wanted real time. They wanna have an access. They don't want to do all this code to configure manage data, and it's complicate. Got data warehouses? You got time. Siri's data so date is getting more complicated, but it needs to be simple. So this is kind of challenge of the industry. How are you guys seeing that with open ship? How is your container piece fit in? How do you guys make that easy for customers to say? Look, I want to have that data like I wanted intelligent, that brick of access to data. So my abs don't have to do all the heavy lifting almost like Dev ops for data. It's like day tops, like I need to have programmable data on the absolutely which, which have thoughts on that. >> So first I wanna I wanna address that in two ways. The first is about open shipped itself that what you described is in fact, the sweet spot of what open shift is providing a common set of Cooper Nettie Services. Plus. See, I see the pipeline services for developers and operation staff independent of your cloud infrastructures. So whether open shift is running on top of a heavy west, whether it's running on top of his your whether it's running on top of the G, C. P. Whether it's running on premises on bare metal, you know, common set of cou bernetti services and CD pipeline services. Okay, that so what you described there's wanted to just highlight that That is open ship hybrid multi >> valuable check. That's awesome data >> now coming down. Coming down to data. So, in fact, open shift container storage is the mirror analog to open shift for that, providing a common set of Cooper Netease volume services. Independent of what? The storage substrate. ID. So think about it. If you're If you're inside of eight of us, you've got CBS is what's you know? When in Rome, act as the Romans. You've got E. B s there when you're inside of eight of us. Well, the type of communities volumes service of the CBS provides natively differed them for instance, when you're on premises and it's surfacing via and NFS plug in, maybe different. Likewise. We're inside of a CZ. You're with your persistent disco, so open shift container storage device the same type of abstraction Lee are providing a common set of cou bernetti communities volumes services independent of what? The storage server layer is so >> cool you guys was tracked away the complexity. So the APP developer doesn't do anything about storage on those discreet platforms, >> doesn't know anything about storage and provides a common set of services instead of Well, let's see, this is running on this cloud. I don't have the have a different set of services, so common set of services. >> So one of things I love about talking right out of the shows is you actually have a lot of customers that are doing this way. Actually, we spoke to one of your customers yesterday. Talk about how you know communities is helping them create sustainable data centers over in Europe. In the Nordics, especially so communities is awesome. But what's really awesome is the things that we can do on top of it. I wonder if you've got, you know, help connect some of this toe. You know, your customers really things, you know? How does this, you know, change the game? How does it change their teams? You know, what can you share with us? >> One of things that I can't. What's what's top of mind. So what's not top of mind for me at the moment is you know what kind of knew how their reinventing the world what is top of mind with me right now? We've just been studying. Our our results is we look back and this is a little bit of a A Okay? It's a trend, but it's a different kind of friend you're talking about. In the last six quarters, we've had six hundred percent growth with open ship container storage. Um, so And now we send last six quarters were also at a point. Now we're seeing some of those same folks from the Nordics here. You're describing that are coming back now, you know, they have experimented on, So there are some There are Cem Cem cruise ship. There's a cruise ship company that is deployed this on on ships. What we're now seeing. What's very gratifying for us is they're coming back now for a second pass. Now, a year into it, it's okay. Clearly, it must be providing enough value that you come back. Okay. I want to buy this for another ship or more shifts. That's gratifying for us. The first year was, let's see. Let's try this uber Netease, this open ship container store stuff out. But, you know, coming back to the trough for another take, It's good for us. >> And what's going around the corner? He opens shifting, doing great. I love this abstraction layer we're seeing for the first time in the industry, clear visibility and a real value proposition. When I were joking yesterday, you know, we were at open stack years ago, or even Cube con three years ago. We would ask the question If you had a magic wand, what would you hope to have happened? It's actually some of the things that are actually happening. I mean, clean, heavy lifting is gone, and all the developer side consistency, productivity, better advantage on the application development side and then taking away all the hassles of having that she trained people on multiple clouds. So this is kind of happening. What's next? So what's the next next, uh, bowling pin to fall down? What's the, you know, Hit the front ten. What's next? What's going on? How do you guys see the next innovation around Open ship and storage containers, >> cloud independent data services and mobility. So independent of the clouds. And again, it's hybrid, too. So you don't want to be locked into your own cloud either. So cloud independent data services and mobility. So he said, Listen, I want to be I want to have a common de doop compression mirroring, but I want to sit in the layer above my clouds back to the data gravity thing. I want to ensure that my data is where I need it on different clouds. So I'm elevating to a new layer this this cloud storage controller, this this cloud independent set of data services way. Think that's where the pucks going? >> Yeah, I think the data date is critical, I think. Way said years ago. Data ops. There's a Dev ops model for data. You look at that way's not just putting into a data lake actually making it useful. Yeah, Thanks. Come on. Cuba. Here. Bringing all the data here. The Cube. We're sharing it here. Live in Seattle. Is our third year coop coming there from the beginning? That's the cubes coverage of Cloud Native Khan and Coop gone. Bring all the action here. Was red hot on the Cube. Back with more live coverage. Stay with us. Day three, three days ago off the wall. Coverage will be back after this short break.

>> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. (upbeat techno music) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. Live here in Las Vegas where Amazon Web Services re:Invent 2017. Our fifth year covering. We missed the first year by one year, 2012. We couldn't make it. We were here 2013 and going forward. Or was it 2012? I don't know. I'm John Furrier with Lisa Martin. Our next guest is CUBE alumni number five in all time on CUBE visits. Famous venture capitalist partner at Greylock, Jerry Chen, former head of cloud at VMware, industry legend. Great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> That's quite the intro. >> Always an important guest. >> Oh, no. It's always an important stop at any conference. Like I said, if theCUBE's not there, it's not an event. How's that? >> Well, you're one of our most famous CUBE alumni. So, you're gonna get the credit card in the mail, with the Affinity program and all the benefits the alumni get. >> Thank you. >> John: Almost as good as Stanford. >> Almost as good. >> Okay, Jerry, thanks for coming on. I wanna just reminisce a little bit. 2013, your first time on theCUBE. It was small. We were on the other side over there. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> You were kind of mingling around looking for your first deal at Greylock. >> Jerry: Yeah. And you said, "I'm looking for the next Amazon." There was never a next Amazon, they just kept growing and growing. What a ride it's been. Jerry, your thoughts looking back now. >> Thank you. Well, thanks for having me. Like Moore's Law says, you double every 18 months in compute power. So, the Amazon or the cloud conference is the number of people are tripling every single year we've been here. The number of expos, the number of ecosystem partners has just been doubling, tripling. The number of services on Amazon's cloud has to be more than doubling every single year. So, Moore's Law is taken to the cloud in a different exponential way. >> And scale certainly is a dynamic. I was commenting on my post leading up to here, and my exclusive with Jassy, talking to him, trying to look at him and read the tea leaves. And it's clear to me, this is not him, my observation, the competitive strategy for Amazon is more services, speed, scale. They're raising the bar on the number of services that could be used, thus increasing their total addressable market. As more people use the cloud, more services are available. That's their plan. It's pretty clear. And the speed. Is that a competitive opportunity that blocks out other people? We talked before. You said, it's not a winner take all. It's winner take most. >> Jerry: Yeah. And Amazon's looking good. But you got Microsoft and Google. So, okay, I get that. >> Jerry: Don't forget Alibaba. >> Alibaba, they're number four worldwide. Number seven ... >> Jerry: Yep. Well, number one in China. But here's the deal. There's specialty clouds, there's new intelligent clouds that something Atella talks about. So it's an interesting dynamic, right. And Google, which almost has very little presence outside of North America is considered a new guard. A lot of developers love Google. >> Jerry: Yeah. So, you've got this kind of developer cult going on, that's very like a renaissance. Then you've got the IT. Almost sitting there like, not wondering what to do. Or do they? What's your thoughts? >> I don't know if IT's wondering what to do. So, you said a couple of things that are interesting. It's not a winner take all, or winner take most market. But, Amazon's launching all these new services. And so, what it is, when you have that scale the cost to serve another customer, the cost to lanch an additional service, is low. The marginal cost for yet another API on Amazon is low. So what Amazon has done so well is, there's a long tail of developer features and services that everybody wants. And they just keep adding them. There's only like 1000 developers that care about the service. The cost for Amazon to launch that is so low they can do that and have a positive ROI. So, if you're going to attack Amazon right now, you can't do the breadth of services. You've got to figure out a different vector of attacking. And so, you asked about Google. So Google is definitely taking the approach of two things. One, win developer love. Write a bunch of features around performance, storage, speed, they're doing really well. And number two, they're really doing a concentrated attack around some of their data and ML services. TensorFlow, and what not, that's getting a lot of attention. In contrast, you're going to see, I think, a lot of announcements tomorrow by Amazon or on ML and data services tomorrow. Because they're going to try and win the hearts and minds of the next generation of apps which could be around AI and data. >> And that's not low level parts of the stack. That's around the database layer. I mean, a new kind of middleware ... >> Correct. >> Is developing. >> I think you're seeing Amazon really attack the market in three different ways. One, the lowest level platform, infrastructure. Like storage, security, compute. >> John: Check. >> Check. You know, we see what they're doing there. Next is what I call the system of intelligence, right. It's how do you build AI or data. How to build a system of intelligence on top of that data. And that's where the battle is. The third area for Amazon is really these verticals, right. Their FedCloud, go after healthcare, go after financial services. So there's kind of a good market angle for these guys. So you'll see, I think, Andy and his team announce core infrastructure, system of intelligence tools around AI and data, and then a different good markets around healthcare, Government, financials, et cetera. >> It's interesting, you know, the developer attraction is interesting now. We were debating this on our opening, Lisa, where you know, IT controls the budgets and the enterprise. Certainly Government's the same way. And the old developer model is, join my developer program, here's a bunch of goodness, go build, go in the corner, we're going to tell you what to do, make it work, run the IT pipes, lay down some software applications and we're done. Ship it. QA, done. Now with cloud, the developers are driving the sentiment and now the freedom and the democratization of developers is interesting. So, does developers, this new cult I'm calling it, the new renaissance, are they going to drive the buying decision? It used to be the sales guy from Oracle or Olgar would come in and say, "Hey, I got a deal for you. I'll discount it by a zillion percent." Well, the developers don't want that. So you got this new force with the scale. So, it's interesting to see what we'll see from Amazon. >> Yeah. >> Again, I don't think this is going to be this year, but, this seems to be the trend that we've kind of talked about. Win the developers. Interesting. If you win the developers ... >> The dollars will follow. >> The dollars will follow or be the the new influencer ... >> Correct. >> To the decision maker of the deal. >> Yeah. >> And they've done that so well, I mean, one of the interesting things we're seeing now is advertising from AWS ... >> Jerry: Sure. >> Which we haven't really seen before. There were digital ads at the airport yesterday. They have done such a great job building awareness in the developer community. Really haven't had to advertise. You mention, also, Google getting Stickier binding to developers. The TensorFlow, Cooper Netties. >> Jerry: Correct. >> But, the advertising as a marker kind of speaks to me that are they trying to now go stronger to the enterprise and up the stack of the C Suite, the corporate boards. >> Jerry: Correct. To John's question, where is the buying power? Are you seeing a shift towards up the stack or are the developers now becoming stronger influencers in that case? >> It's never either or. I think its where you start and where you grow to. So I think Amazon did so well and Google's doing now is, you start with the developers because they're going to build the apps, you're going to make the decisions on what technology they use. But, you and I both know that's where you start but it's not how you finish. To get Sticky, you need security, operations, IT. So eventually the CIO or the CFO is going to write that seven figure, 10 figure, eight figure, nine figure deal to Amazon or to Google or to Agger because they're going to standardize on this cloud, this technology. If your business is running on Amazon, you're depending on Amazon. You know the CEO is going to make the decision, not just the developers. So, I think you start with the developer because they're going to make the right choices and you have to offer them the right set of tools and technologies, the right weapons. But ultimately, you build a house but someones going to pay for it and that's going to be the C Suite. >> Jerry, you've been involved in one of the best deals, seminal deals in the history of this new generation, Docker Containers. Container madness now turns into Cooper Nettie's madness. So you start to see at the top of the stack ... >> Jerry: Yeah. >> The application, the orchestration really tease that multi-cloud. So that's, although a lot of meat on the bone in my mind, but still certainly customers want choice. So what's your investment thesis these days as you see if it's a renaissance of developers, which we believe. And this ecosystem is going to grow, by the way, not just Amazon, you've got Microsoft, you've got Google, you've got Alibaba in China. So now, new gateways outside of North America. How do you invest in that and market? What's the strategy for Greylock? How are you guys looking at the market? Are there things that are new? Can you share some color around what goes on in the board meetings with all the investors? >> I would say there's probably two themes I'm thinking about right now to ride this wave around cloud. Both around the infrastructure layer and the app layer on top of it. So, I would say, whenever you see a new platform shift around mainframe client server, client sever cloud mobile, cloud mobile where we're at now. The first shift is always, take what I'm doing now and move it to cloud, right. And so I think that a lot of the tools you see now, database migration, how to transpose my data from one cloud to the next cloud. But what you see the second wave is, this cloud needed developers, right. These guys coming out of college, good men and women, that never racked a server. They're building cloud native databases, cloud native applications. And what you can do now, is you'll see another generation of applications being built, they'll look nothing like the generations behind, right. So the way you think about data, AI and apps will look very different. So there is a new sub-straight around data and applications in the cloud that we're looking at. >> An certainly, I know we've gotta go, we're going to have to bring you back, but, decentralization ... >> Jerry: Sure. >> You guys, Greylock, invested in CoinBase ... >> Jerry: Yes. >> You did very well, BitCoin is at 10,000. Crypto is hot. Token economics, potentially you looking good? >> I think you're going to have >> John: Look at the board. >> Yeah, I think that all things a hype cycle. You have a trial of disillusionment where the garner guys say, before you have any expectations. We will hit a crypto winter. But then it'll come back in some realization. There's a bunch of great technologies, great companies out there in the crypto space. CoinBase being one of them, we're lucky enough to be investors in. A bunch of other ICO's that are legitimate. But a bunch of stuff that's just noise. >> There's a lot of junk. You can see the ICO's are down now. So it looks like it's a little bit cold, the leaves are coming off the tree. >> I'd say in three or four years, I think BitCoin and some of these other assets will do well. Some of these other token services will do well. And a bunch won't exist. But they paved the way for, I think, a new paradigm. >> Well the new paradigm certainly will be CUBE Coin's (laughter) so look out for those, for all the CUBE alumni. >> Where do I sign up? >> No, you already get them. You're fifth on the all-time list. >> Now sixth. >> Jerry Chen is a CUBE alumni here inside the CUBE. Venture capitalist with Greylock. Tier one, big time investors in Silicon Valley. Great friend of the CUBE. Thanks for coming on sharing your commentary. I'm John Furrier with Lisa Martin, we'll be back with more coverage at re:Invent 2017 after this break. (digital music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is Red Hat Summit and this is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Dave Vellante, with my co-host, Stu Miniman and Matt Hicks is here. Is the Vice President of the software engineering for OpenShift and management, at Red Hat. Matt, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much, good to be here. >> So this is where all the action is, is management and management of Clouds and inter Clouds and intra clouds, and it's the sort of next big battleground and you guys seem to be, doin really well there. Have a lot of momentum. >> It's been a good year. I think it's going to be a great year going forward, cause it, it adds a lot of customer value you know, they're seeing the drive to get applications across all these environments, and I think we've hit a good balance of what we can provide in OpenShift, or middle work portfolio management and you hear a lot of customers talking about it all through summits. >> Well we saw some pretty sick demos this morning. I got to ask ya, it was basically the reference model, was okay, got some web logic, and web sphere apps. You know, wink, wink. And you want to modernize them, and so you guys just showed like a five click modernization process. Is it really that simple? Are people really, really doing that? >> Yeah. We have customers that have moved thousands of applications like that, and they're all different sorts of applications. But going from, a proprietary EE stack to getting on something closer to EAP. To deploying it on OpenShift, that is our bread and butter. And it's great because EAP can take advantage of OpenShift, lets customers re-platform the apps that they have. And like we said on Key Net, it sort of frees up your time then to start building the fun stuff. Building the next apps, and you know we've had a ton of success with that. >> Matt so we had the opportunity to talk to some of the innovation award winners. What we haven't actually gotten to cover too much yet, is all the news. So there were a number of announcements in your space, wonder if you could help us, kind of unpack for our audience. >> Sure thing. So we, You will hear a lot about the, just the enterprise production adoption, of the new technologies. Because one of the things for us, it's easy to come up and talk about new technologies. We like actually bringing customers up that have taken that new technology to production. So that's one of the big themes you'll see here at Summit. We launched OpenShift IO. Which for us actually had great success of OpenShift as Hybrid Net platform, Prod. But as you heard from United Health Group, Optum this morning. They have 10,000 plus developers to roll that out to. And we knew we needed to close the gap on how to get empowered developers. So OpenShift IO was the new Cloud based services for that. We will also announce and talk about our container health index. So when you start really making the bed on containers, how do you know what's inside of em, how do you get a simple grading system to understand like A through F. How well maintained is this. As well as being able to look under the covers and understand what goes into that A or what goes into that F. >> And maybe explain that a little bit more, because I think about like, you know, okay, I remember like in the virtualization world, I understood that. So many of containers live a lot shorter life, so, is there, is this just a dashboard that rolls that up, because I want to know probably the general health of what's going on, because there's no way humans going to be able to keep track of it. And I mean, we're not all Google with two billion containers, being brought up and killed every week. But it tends to be, at least from what I've seen, tell me if you see otherwise, that most containers are still much shorter lived than OS's. Or you know, VM4B4. >> You know I think that's, it's one of the advantages. Is that they can be pretty volatile, like that effect. You know, we have capabilities, like in OpenShift, like Image Streams driven to say, "How do you respond and incorporate this?" At the end of the day, if you can grab a container that in our world has an A rating, no security vulnerabilities today, and in a week, you could have multiple critical CVE's, that have been open that now affect that container. And so the benefit of containers is, you can re-roll em, and you can consume that update, but if you don't know about it, and you stay on that old version, you carry the same risk as if you had an out of date OS, that was very static. >> Yeah, I think that answers back to, you know, Ben Gustav, that golden image. And they would pardon that, and they'd leave it that way for two to five years. Right. And we all laughed because my friends in the security space is like, that's the biggest problem we have, is you're not ready for that. So this is, understanding what you've got out there, being able to address that, remediate, you know, push out changes, or know like hey, if you haven't, this is what you're at risk of. >> Absolutely. And that creates for us, it creates this foundation of, both trust between our customers and Red Hat, with their consuming. But then also between Red Hat and our ISV's. Because most of out ISV's, they're not in the Linux business or they're building specialized middle work capabilities on our products. So it's equally important for them to understand that if they're on an out of date version of RHEL, and they've embedded that into their container, that can cause as many problems, and they need to apply the updates in their stack as our customers. >> But that kind of gets to the business model a little bit. And you're engineering, but so I have an engineering question. But, I think most people in our audience understands that you know, Red Hat is a company built on, open source. And you know people say, "Why buy the cows, the milk is free." Well you've perfected that model, you know, 2.4 billion dollars in revenue. Three billion dollars in bookings. So you're obviously doing something right, although, not many have been able to, actually nobody's been able to create a business model like this. My question is from an engineering stand point. When, you're built on open source, and you're not, driven toward a proprietary mindset of okay, let's lock them in to the next REV. How does that change, sort of the engineering mindset, the culture and the protocol going forward. >> I love it. I have been in Red Hat 11 plus years, and everyday you're not tied into, dropping a new feature and pushing customers to that new version for revenue. And so it changes our mindset of, how do we provide value across the entire range of supported offerings that we have. In the case of RHEL, you could stay on some versions of RHEL for quite a while, and we provide value there in keeping that thing working. But at the same point, we're constantly moving this along, adding new innovation. We're able to provide value there. And it, as an engineer, it is refreshing. Sorry. >> I'll chat for a minute. So you, you know, a lot of companies that are 20 plus years old, are criticized. Oh, they don't, innovate. You hear that all the time. They do incremental R and D. And it's true. They may spend a lot on R and D, but R and D is like a feature here, or another feature there. Design, to just keep putting the crumbs out. And what you're saying is, incremental is not, really fundamental part of your plan. >> Absolutely. We can, you know, we want to provide the same value for our customer if they're on RHEL six, or they're looking towards the next major version of RHEL. And they can move anywhere on that life cycle, and that's what they get as part of their subscription. Same thing with OpenShift. And that choice of customers, of being able to take a product, consume anywhere on the life cycle of it, it's good for customers and it's nice for us, because they're just different ways that you innovate. Of driving like, the next new great feature. Then you have other customers, that you are going to provide value through stability. >> So, when you, we go to a lot of these events, as you can imagine. And when you talk to the traditional, you know, software players, you get this massive dose, of well we do that too. We do containers, and, you know, we do Cloud, and we do Hybrid, and. So help us understand, the difference between how they do it and how you do Cloud. >> I think for us, if we picked containers, you know, I was talking to a group of customers this morning of every upstream technology we pick, that we're going to pull together into our products, We don't just pick em up and re-package em and give em to a customer, because we're a support business. So if it breaks at 3 a.m and I have to re-roll a kernel to be able to fix it, I have to understand every piece in the stack. So we start with, we're going to drive a contributor position in the technologies. We pick our bets and we go all in on those areas. So Cooper Netties will carry you know with Google as you know a great technical partner, we run the majority of the SIGs with them. We have a top contributor position, and that we invest really heavily in understanding that technology inside and out. And I think that's what shows in the customer value of we could certainly take stuff, repackage it and ship it. It doesn't carry the same value as being able to work with a customer, drive new features into the product and keep them running in PROD. >> Matt so you mentioned Cooper Netties. And I was actually a little surprised this morning in the key note, I didn't hear Cooper Netties. And I think the reason was, because I heard a lot about OpenShift, and that's just your mechanism for rolling that out there. I'm assuming your customers kind of understand that maybe you could help, you know, explain that a little bit more. >> Absolutely. And so, OpenShift is our enterprise, distribution Cooper Netties is, and that's sort of the business we're in. We have Linux and RHEL is our enterprise distribution of that. We now have Cooper Netties, this really popular community. OpenShift is our distribution of that, and for our customers. >> I was just saying, I guess you couldn't call it RECK. Which, Red Hat Enterprise, Cooper Nettie, probably wouldn't be a good idea. >> The world changes too fast. You pick names a long time ago. But it's a nice motto, because we know it. It's what we've done for a long time, and it builds on everything we've done with RHEL and it connects our middleware portfolio as well. So I've been on the op side, and I've been on the development side, and I love seeing us address stuff right in the gap there for customers. And I think that's why we're seeing so much customer traction. It's a sweet spot for where they've had pain, and it adds a lot of value for em. >> Could you speak a little bit of your customers. Where are they with containers, Cooper Netties, that whole adoption. >> A lot of them in production. Which is nice. It's nice from a support business, because if you have excitement, or if you have early traction, we're a subscription business, so we want to make sure you know, the more customers use it, the more you know, they're going to grow and actually utilize it. And when you hear customers like UHG saying, the 4000 projects built on OpenShift there. Those are, they have built up significant deployments on that, and Barkways, and I know we have a whole list of em that are here today. And so I like that fact of, it's not just a cool technology. Customers have taken all the way into production. And they're being really successful with it. which as an engineer you love. You want to see people using your products and solving problems with them. >> Absolutely. Matt you talked about the ethos of commitment and committers, to open source projects. One of the challenges for a company like yours, is you got to support a lot of different projects. So though, you saying, you make your bets. We've talked a lot about okay, will there ever be another Red Hat that emerges in the big data space. You see Cloud air, and Hortonworks, and they're always sort of lookin at those guys, as possibility. But they always sight the challenge of having to support so many projects. How do you manage that and did you, you've been with Red Hat for a while, did you hit a tipping point, at some point? Cause I mean certainly you have software margin, 80, 90% you know margins. You got a great operating you know margins. So you've crossed that chasm so to speak to pick a bromide, but, others have had such a challenge. Is it because they have to support those projects and it just takes a long time? And you guys baked over 20 years. I wonder if you can give us some insight there. >> You know, I think it's as much art as it is science, I would love to say. Like this is a you know, cold formula that we apply but, we have a good gut feeling for, if you're going to back a technology, or an upstream project, you want to make sure that it's going to expand beyond your own investment, and we've certainly made a lot of wrong bets that the technology doesn't evolve. But you've got to be able to change, and when we see some of the early indicators like in Cooper Netties. Those are the ones where, we like how it's governed, we like how it's structured, we like the other players that are in there, and that's just been one of the unique aspect of Red Hat, is we pick pretty well. >> So Matt, I'm wondering if you're willing to comment, we were at Dockercon a couple of weeks ago, they've done a shift to, how they're managing kind of, but the Moby project to do the open source stuff, what's your take on that? What's Red Hat's positioning there? It's been an interesting dynamic between Docker and Red Hat to watch the last couple of years. >> Yeah you know, I think Moby for us, it's one of, it's about 16 hundred different upstream projects that we pull in across our portfolios. And so, we're certainly watching it, and we're seeing them evolve. We've been involved for the technology for a while now, but we don't necessarily know where that's going to go right now. But we certainly look a it like we do, you know the whole, breath of open source projects we pull in. >> What else is on your horizon? What's exciting you these days? >> You know, I think just seeing the reality of Hybrid Cloud becoming, it's becoming real for our customers. Where they're able, you know, you probably saw some of the Amazon announcements today where, you're able to take services, that might be in the public Cloud and now pull them on Premise. You heard customers talk about taking OpenShift and running that all the way out to the public Cloud. And we love that aspect, because you know, being able to use infrastructure to power applications, I think it's going to change IT and, then all the pieces that emanate around that, it's exciting for ISV's, it's exciting you know, around our management products from Ansible to Cloud forms. It's just a lot that we can do there. >> On the management products, you know, what Dave said, one of the Bromides out there, when I became an analyst seven years ago, it's like we can say, well it's security and management are the biggest problems we have. I feel like I can go to that well anytime I need to do. How are we doing in industry and management. Obviously you've got your position, but you know, as the surface area of the landscape is just expanding exponentially, every. You talked about how many customers are multi Cloud today. So you know, we know there's not a single thing that can do everything but, how are we doing as an industry, in Red Hot specifically? >> I think form Red hat's position, we've had a lot of success with Ansible. Just becoming a core automation technology, cause I think the one common thread is, you have so many choices, you have so many pieces, you have to start automating them. How we did IT 15 years ago, just will not. It won't scale anymore. I think building up from that stack. How you move to policy based management, that's earlier in the space. But there is a ton of capabilities and we've seen customers using, you know from our perspective, it's combining Cloud forms on orchestration, and satellite for content, Ansible for automation. Because I describe it, so I have the operation teams that run our OpenShift online environments. That's a, a relatively small group of people that manages millions of applications. And they change faster than a human could push a button. And so, as customers get into that world, you know we're certainly not in the Google world yet, but when you get that 4A it changes how you have to manage it. It has to become automated, it has to become policy driven, and then it's fun. I like it. Like doing ops in the 90s versus how you do it today. It is refreshing as an operator to just have these tools are your fingertips. >> High frequency application development. Matt thanks very >> It really is! >> Much for coming on the Cube. It's great to see you, and congratulations and good luck going forward. >> Fantastic, thanks S. >> You're welcome. Alright keep it right there everybody. Stu and I will be right back with our next guest. This is Cube, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

from Seattle Washington extracting the signal from the noise it's the cube on the ground at OpenStack days Seattle 2015 now here's your host John furrier hello and welcome to Seattle this is a special Q presentation cube on the ground OTG we call it on the ground we go out to the event and talk to all the thought leader I'm John far with the QNX arendelle with SolidFire also the famous cloudcast podcast great to see you again I know good to see John cloudcast is a hot podcast all the thought leaders are listening customers are listening guys are really the signal out there on cloud and also SolidFire growing yes all flash storage you gotta kick in some but they're always keeping tabs on you guys new approach the cloud what's going on with cloud give us the update of OpenStack what's the bottom line I mean is it failing is it winning is it growing is it stalled what do we expect to see ya know so it's at an interesting point because it absolutely is growing but it still has some operational challenges that's the number one thing we're seeing right now is actually just talking to some folks in the hall of common theme is you're still trying to figure how to upgrade it easily still figuring how to operate it easily right and the gentleman from canonical made that made the the reference you know ketchup right everyone has the in green stuff in your kitchen but no one makes their ketchup right and I thought that was fantastic because it's you know everyone's kind of looking for that easy button and it's starting to show up you know you've got you the blue box folks you've got the platform nine folks you've got some interesting startups actually coming into the OpenStack space which shows us there is some definitely some innovation and some new things going on but it's because of the challenges we faced until now the question is the ketchup good I mean is that last ingredient going to make it so that it's not too watery I mean is Cooper Nettie's is containers so truly is it good ketchup and yeah what's the next was the key ingredient well yeah and that's that's a fantastic point because we are at this inflection point where OpenStack was a necessary next that without a doubt we had to get that first step into cloud native applications had to do it but where we're going with Mesa sand cabrion at ease with mesa con going on down the street is that the true next evolution is it like the OpenStack Murano project where you're kind of getting containers built into OpenStack we'll have to wait and see because that anytime you talk to burn a DS anytime you talk Mesa that's is so cutting edge so at this point I'm still Silicon Valley home so OpenStack obviously meme of a sec being dead is kind of falls we saw some things happen last year so it opens dec sv some people aren't going to be there this year that were there last year yes either went out of business or executives have left but yet a lot of dynamics going on palma risks is stepping down as CEO of cloud pivotal cloud foundry cleans 100 million dollars in revenue leather to see those books but but the question now see amazon is doing their thing and but it's really a dynamic market right now so so it's there yes the question is who's doing what in revenue what's the numbers is it all professional surgery and cloud found your hundred million that's a huge number i just is that all professional services do they actually selling product yeah and that's a fantastic moment because the m the cloud cast we saw this consolidation coming for a long time we really started covering OpenStack about four years ago and we were just waiting for at some point you know when we first started there was 15 plus startups in the OpenStack space and there just wasn't enough customers there there wasn't enough revenue there and you just saw this natural consolidation come to a head last year and yeah some are no longer here a lot of them were sucked up into the various vendors and what you're seeing now is especially at the OpenStack summits and like these events here you have a much more mature ecosystem it's almost like the new legacy of you know all of these vendors are there they're all mature they're trying to play in this space they're trying to make money off of it and time will tell and then it's an evolution anybody brought to point you right over the easy button what is that easy button now is it just deployment in a box is it like just give me prefabricated OpenStack is it tooling is it management we're hearing a lot of different things yeah and I think time will tell but I do think the preference we're seeing in our customers is definitely moving towards that easy button as a service if you will of some of those companies where the operations have open stack because it hasn't gotten easier at the same level of the adoption people are looking to what is that next step if the operations were to get easier i don't think we'd see that market be as popular as it is right now is it is the market still in early adopter that's the thing that's on my mind has it crossed over yet I think it has I think we're at least in OpenStack context where we're beyond early adopter phase there is a lot of folks out there using it but what's interesting is is to kind of go back around to the previous question a little bit the district's taken off like I think they probably should have most of the large customers I've seen are still roll your own and it is still that staff of Engineers really keeping up and running and again because the what was the value-added the distributions we're starting to see the Red Hat distribution get a you know to that point where we're getting good adoption of that we're seeing the marantis one with all the fuel work they're doing we're getting good adoption with that so the question on adoption is it's either not Oh people aren't aware of it or the product sucks so is it mix of both is it awareness issue or is it a product issue oh that's a great question i think it's a it's a question of differentiation I don't know that it's differentiated enough at this point in time it's it's you know if you go build your own versus you farm it out if you will completely big differences right but it's almost like shades who could be fear yeah it could be a third dimension you could absolutely be fear well that's the thing you've been the issue solution of operators we hear a lot of an operator so the question is if I'm an engineering team I might want to have my tire kickers go through the motions and that's not necessary approval con so that's just core competency building so that fear could be an issue of cork opera so maybe they're aware of it maybe the products decent maybe it's just that their team's not core enough to do that yeah when it comes to the folks in house um yeah again going back to the easy button what we really need in the opposite community is that POC in a box and that's probably there today don't get me wrong but but everyone sees that POC in a box but then they're afraid of does that mean can I scale it out to 100 nodes a thousand nodes and will it be as easy and it's almost gotten a reputation now of know and and so how do we get it to grow to 100 notes thousand nodes whatever you want and do the business value out of I don't need a big staff of people and how do I get you know the underlying infrastructure to be simpler at the end of the day a little cloud cast we got going on here I mean I think in my opinion my opinion I think it's just a matter of the customers having the ability to execute and have the total cost of ownership equation nailed I think there's still this gray area of there's no straight and narrow on on the execution what's my cost i'm gonna be locked into that vendor what's going to be the lock-in oh my god yeah the shark fin the iceberg whatever metaphor you want to use yes no is that reading is their visibility on the ownership side because downstream what's the impact well it what's interesting there too is the biggest thing I'm seeing is for again from an operation standpoint how do we make this as simple as possible because what happens is you have this weird convoluted thing if you have the whole legacy apps versus cloud native apps and you take that put it aside for a second rank if we take that and put it aside well what what do they really want doesn't matter what kind of app it is well the developers want API driven infrastructure you can call it cloud but the end of the day it's it's an infrastructure that's driven by api's and then as simple as possible you know being able to really guarantee the uptime guarantee the performance and that's where OpenStack at times it gets a bad rap I don't and I'm not even necessarily agreeing with that might not even be worthy of a bad rap in that agreed absolutely because there are known customers out there that are doing it and doing it very well but again is how do you get beyond that room well Stu miniman I'm Wikibon and Brian Grace Lee and now Wikibon and and I Robin conversation about this and I think Dave vellante even chimed in and we were debating was up across the board different opinions yes what the hell is cloud native app mean you know is it is amazonas cloudy of course they're cloud Facebook a cloud native app okay but what does that mean for enterprises that mean that the app was built for just API so to me it just doesn't seen it's been a lot of there's not a lot of cloud native apps out there right now or are now what is a cloud yeah and and it's a fantastic question and my opinion have always been you know there's there was this kind of trend in the industry how do I take these legacy apps and make them cloud native well the simple answer is you don't the way I look at it is it's really more of like a star of the old build the new mentality you you want to maintain those legacy systems but the same time as those kind of age off the books if you will you're going to have to build a new infrastructure so if you're going to build new infrastructure you might as well build it the new way but that has to happen over time that is not something that happens you know most businesses out there today they don't do technology for the sake of technology there has to be a business reason and a business driver if that legacy app is still out there making them money they're going to keep using I not untrue to your point it's you cloud native is the future the soil asked of you know yeah yield some fruit on that tree if you will so that's going to take some time exactly so so you know I very much see this as a longer tail that most people would like without a doubt it is just a matter of how are we going to get their long-term and yeah there's lots of terminology and the cloud native and what does that mean big picture and architectural II that's all solved it's getting the businesses to rewrite the apps and really give them Aaron we're in Seattle right now on the ground so quickly describe to the folks out there what's the vibe here what's it like a Seattle it's been it is so it's been interesting I've been in here since tuesday now and i've done lenox con cloudstack day OpenStack day and mesa con all in the in three days now so it's what did you learn yeah it's been a world in 30-second I know yeah so it the biggest thing is there is still a lot of confusion in yes people are starting to get legacy versus cloud native but when it comes to which technologies do i use why would i use them what are the actual business drivers to actually go adopt some of these new technologies massive amounts of confusion around that and that's probably the biggest reason for you know trying to get knowledge out in the industry without a doubt okay we are OTG on the ground this is the cube in Seattle I'm John for thanks for watching and all the coverage here at OpenStack innovation day thanks for watching