(upbeat music) >> Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to theCUBE. We're live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson. Joined here with John Furrier, John, so exciting, day three. >> Day three, cranking along, doing great, final day of KubeCon, it wraps up. This next segment's going to be great. It's about WebAssembly, the hottest trend here, at KubeCon that nobody knows about cause they just got some funding and it's got some great traction. Multiple players in here. People are really interested in this and they're really discovering it. They're digging into it. So, we're going to hear from one of the founders of the company that's involved. So, it'll be great. >> Yeah, I think we're right at the tip of the iceberg really. We started off the show with Scott from Docker talking about this, but we have a thought leader in this space. Please welcome Matt Butcher the CEO and co-founder of Fermyon Thank you for being here. Welcome. >> Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Favorite thing to talk about is WebAssembly after that is coffee but WebAssembly first. >> Hey, it's the morning. We can talk about both those on the show. (all chuckles) >> It might get confusing, but I'm willing to try. >> If you can use coffee as a metaphor to teach everyone about WebAssembly throughout the rest of the show. >> All right. That would be awesome. >> All right I'll keep that in mind. >> So when we were talking before we got on here I thought it was really fun because I think the hype is just starting in the WebAssembly space. Very excited about it. Where do you think we're at, set the stage? >> Honestly, we were really excited to come here and see that kind of first wave of hype. We came here expecting to have to answer the question you know, what is WebAssembly and why is anybody looking at it in the cloud space, and instead people have been coming up to us and saying, you know this WebAssembly thing, we're hearing about it. What are the problems it's solving? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> We're really excited to hear about it. So, people literally have been stopping us in restaurants and walking down the street, hey, "You're at KubeCon, you're the WebAssembly people. Tell us more about what's going on." >> You're like awesome celeb. I love this. >> Yeah, and I, >> This is great >> You know the, the description I used was I expected to come here shouting into the void. Hey, you know anybody, somebody, let me tell you about WebAssembly. Instead it's been people coming to us and saying "We've heard about it. Get us excited about it," and I think that's a great place to be. >> You know, one of the things that's exciting too is that this kind of big trend with this whole extraction layer conversation, multicloud, it reminds me of the old app server days where, you know there was a separation between the back end and front end, and then we're kind of seeing that now with this WebAssembly Wasm trend where the developers just want to have the apps run everywhere and the coding to kind of fall in, take a minute to explain what this is, why it's important, why are people jazzed about there's other companies like Cosmonic is in there. There's a lot of open source movement behind it. You guys are out there, >> Savannah: Docker. >> 20 million in fresh funding. Why is this important? What is it and why is it relevant right now? Why are people talking about it? >> I mean, we can't... There is no penasia in the tech world much for the good of all of us, right? To keep us employed. But WebAssembly seems to be that technology that just sort of arose at the right time to solve a number of problems that were really feeling intractable not very long ago. You know, at the core of what is WebAssembly? Well it's a binary format, right? But there's, you know, built on the same, strain of development that Java was built on in the 90's and then the .net run time. But with a couple of little fundamental changes that are what have made it compelling today. So when we think about the cloud world, we think about, okay well security's a big deal to us. Virtual machines are a way for us to run other people's untrusted operating systems on our hardware. Containers come along, they're a... The virtual machine is really the heavyweight class. This is the big thing. The workhorse of the cloud. Then along come Containers, they're a little slimmer. They're kind of the middleweight class. They provide us this great way to sort of package up just the application, not the entire operating system just the application and the bits we care about and then be able to execute those in a trusted environment. Well you know, serverless was the buzzword a few years ago. But one thing that serverless really identified for us is that we didn't actually have the kind of cloud side architecture that was the compute layer that was going to be able to fulfill the promise of serverless. >> Yeah. >> And you know, at that time I was at Microsoft we got to see behind the curtain and see how Azure operates and see the frustration with going, okay how do we get this faster? How do we get this startup time down from seconds to hundreds of milliseconds, WebAssembly comes along and we're able to execute these things in sub one millisecond, which means there is almost no cost to starting up one of these. >> Sub one millisecond. I just want to let everyone rest on that for a second. We've talked a lot about velocity and scale on the show. I mean everyone here is trying to do things faster >> Yep >> Obviously, but that is a real linchpin that makes a very big difference when we're talking about deploying things. Yeah. >> Yeah, and I mean when you think about the ecological and the cost impact of what we're building with the cloud. When we leave a bunch of things running in idle we're consuming electricity if nothing else. The electricity bill keeps going up and we're paying for it via cloud service charges. If you can start something in sub one millisecond then there's no reason you have to leave it running when nobody's using it. >> Savannah: Doesn't need to be in the background. >> That's right. >> So the lightweight is awesome. So, this new class comes up. So, like Java was a great metaphor there. This is kind of like that for the modern era of apps. >> Yeah. >> Where is this going to apply most, do you think? Where's it going to impact most? >> Well, you know, I think there are really four big categories. I think there's the kind of thing I was just talking about I think serverless and edge computing and kind of the server class of problem space. I think IOT is going to benefit, Amazon, Disney Plus, >> Savannah: Yes, edge. >> And PBS, sorry BBC, they all use WebAssembly for the players because they need to run the same player on thousands of different devices. >> I didn't even think about that use case. What a good example. >> It's a brilliant way to apply it. IOT is a hard space period and to be able to have that kind of layer of abstraction. So, that's another good use case >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And then I think this kind of plugin model is another one. You see it was Envoy proxy using this as a way to extend the core features. And I think that one's going to be very, very promising as well. I'm forgetting one, but you know. (all chuckles) I think you end up with these kind of discreet compartments where you can easily fit WebAssembly in here and it's solving a problem that we didn't have the technology that was really adequately solving it before. >> No, I love that. One of the things I thought was interesting we were all at dinner, we were together on Tuesday. I was chatting with Paris who runs Deliveroo at Apple and I can't say I've heard this about too many tools but when we were talking about WebAssembly she said "This is good for everybody" And, it's really nice when technologies come along that will raise the water level across the board. And I love that you're leading this. Speaking of you just announced a huge series aid, 20 million dollars just a few days ago. What does that mean for you and the team? >> I mean there's a little bit of economic uncertainty and it's always nice, >> Savannah: Just a little bit. >> Little bit. >> Savannah: It's come up on the show a little bit this week >> Just smidge. and it's nice to know that we're at a critical time developing this kind of infrastructure layer developing this kind of developer experience where they can go from, you know, blinking cursor to deployed application in two minutes or less. It would be a tragedy if that got forestalled merely because you can't achieve the velocity you need to carry it out. So, what's very exciting about being able to raise around like that at this critical time is that gives us the ability to grow strategically, be able to continue releasing products, building a community around WebAssembly as a whole and of course around our products at Fermyon is a little smaller circle in the bigger circle, and that's why we are so excited about having closed around, that's the perfect one to extend a runway like that. >> Well I'm super excited by this because one I love the concept. I think it's very relevant, like how you progress heavyweight, middleweight, maybe this is lightweight class. >> I know, I'm here for the analogy. No, it's great, its great. >> Maybe it's a lightweight class. >> And we're slimming, which not many of us can say in these times so that's awesome. >> Maybe it's more like the tractor trailer, the van, now you got the sports car. >> Matt: Yeah, I can go.. >> Now you're getting Detroit on us. >> I was trying for a coffee, when I just couldn't figure it out. (all chuckles) >> So, you got 20 million. I noticed the investors amplify very good technical VC and early stage firm. >> Amazing, yeah. >> Insight, they do early stage, big early stage like this. Also they're on the board of Docker. Docker was intent to put a tool out there. There's other competition out there. Cosmonic is out there. They're funded. So you got VC funded companies like yourselves and Cosmonic and others. What's that mean? Different tool chains, is it going to create fragmentation? Is there a common mission? How do you look at the competition as you get into the market >> When you see an ecosystem form. So, here we are at KubeCon, the cloud native ecosystem at this point I like to think of them as like concentric rings. You have the kind of core and then networking and storage and you build these rings out and the farther out you get then the easier it is to begin talking about competition and differentiation. But, when you're looking at that core piece everybody's got to be in there together working on the same stuff, because we want interoperability, we want standards based solutions. We want common ways of building things. More than anything, we want the developers and operators and users who come into the ecosystem to be able to like instantly feel like, okay I don't have to learn. Like you said, you know, 50 different tools for 50 different companies. "I see how this works", and they're doing this and they're doing this. >> Are you guys all contributing into the same open source? >> Yep, yeah, so... >> All the funding happens. >> Both CNCF and the ByteCode Alliance are organizations that are really kind of pushing forward that core technology. You know, you mentioned Cosmonic, Microsoft, SOSA, Red Hat, VMware, they're all in here too. All contributing and again, with all of us knowing this is that nascent stage where we got to execute it. >> How? >> Do it together. >> How are you guys differentiating? Because you know, open source is a great thing. Rising Tide floats all boats. This is a hot area. Is there a differentiation discussion or is it more let's see how it goes, kind of thing? >> Well for us, we came into it knowing very specifically what the problem was we wanted to solve. We wanted this serverless architecture that executed in sub one millisecond to solve, to really create a new wave of microservices. >> KubeCon loves performance. They want to run their stuff on the fastest platform possible. >> Yeah, and it shouldn't be a roadblock, you know, yeah. >> And you look at someone like SingleStore who's a database company and they're in it because they want to be able to run web assemblies close to the data. Instead of doing a sequel select and pulling it way out here and munging it and then pushing it back in. They move the code in there and it's executing in there. So everybody's kind of finding a neat little niche. You know, Cosmonic has really gone more for an enterprise play where they're able to provide a lot of high level security guarantees. Whereas we've been more interested in saying, "Hey, this your first foray into WebAssembly and you're interested in serverless we'll get you going in like a couple of minutes". >> I want to ask you because we had Scott Johnston on earlier opening keynote so we kind of chatted one-on-one and I went off form cause I really wanted to talk to him because Docker is one of the most important companies since their pivot, when they did their little reset after the first Docker kind of then they sold the enterprise off to Mirantis they've been doing really, really well. What's your relationship to Docker? He was very bullish with you guys. Insights, joint investor. Is there a relationship? You guys talk, what's going on there? >> I mean, I'm going to have to admit a little bit of hero worship on my part. I think Scott is brilliant. I just do, and having come from the Kubernetes world the Fermyon team, we've always kind of kept an eye on Docker communicated with a lot of them. We've known Justin Cormack for years. Chris Cornett. (indistinct) I mean yeah, and so it has been a very natural >> Probably have been accused of every Docker Con and we've did the last three years on the virtual side with them. So, we know them really well. >> You've always got your finger on the pulse for them. >> Do you have a relationship besides a formal relationship or is it more of pass shoot score together in the industry? >> Yeah. No, I think it is kind of the multi-level one. You come in knowing people. You've worked together before and you like working with each other and then it sort of naturally extends onto saying, "Hey, what can we do together?" And also how do we start building this ecosystem around us with Docker? They've done an excellent job of articulating why WebAssembly is a complimentary technology with Containers. Which is something I believe very wholeheartedly. You need all three of the heavyweight, middleweight, lightweight. You can't do all the with just one, and to have someone like that sort of with a voice profoundly be able to express, look we're going to start integrating it to show you how it works this way and prevent this sort of like needless drama where people are going, oh Dockers dead, now everything's WebAssembly, and that's been a great.. >> This fight that's been going on. I mean, Docker, Kubernetes, WebAssembly, Containers. >> Yeah. >> We've seen on the show and we both know this hybrid is the future. We're all going to be using a variety of different tools to achieve our goals and I think that you are obviously one of them. I'm curious because just as we were going on you mentioned that you have a PhD in philosophy. (Matt chuckles) >> Matt: Yeah. >> Which is a wild card. You're actually our second PhD in philosophy working in a very technical role on the show this week, which is kind of cool. So, how does that translate into the culture at Fermyon? What's it like on the team? >> Well, you know, a philosophy degree if nothing else teaches you to think in systems and both human systems and formal systems. So that helps and when you approach the process of building a company, you need to be thinking both in terms of how are we organizing this? How are we organizing the product? How do we organize the team? We have really learned that culture is a major deal and culture philosophy, >> Savannah: Why I'm bringing it up. >> We like that, you know, we've been very forward. We have our chip values, curiosity, humility inclusivity and passion, and those are kind of the four things that we feel like that each of us every day should strive to be exhibiting these kinds of things. Curiosity, because you can't push the envelope if you don't ask the hard questions. Humility, because you know, it's easy to get cocky and talk about things as if you knew all the answers. We know we don't and that means we can learn from Docker and Microsoft >> Savannah: That's why you're curious. >> And the person who stops by the booth that we've never met before and says, "hey" and inclusivity, of course, building a community if you don't execute on that well you can't build a good community. The diversity of the community is what makes it stronger than a singular.. >> You have to come in and be cohesive with the community. >> Matt: Yeah. >> The app focus is a really, I think, relevant right now. The timing of this is right online. I think Scott had a good answer I thought on the relationship and how he sees it. I think it's going to be a nice extension to not a extension that way, but like. >> It probably will be as well. >> Almost a pun there John, almost a pun. >> There actually might be an extension, but evolution what we're going to get to which I think is going to be pure application server, like. >> Yep, yep. Like performance for new class of developer. Then now the question comes up and we've been watching developer productivity. That is a big theme and our belief is that if you take digital transformation to its conclusion IT and developers aren't a department serving the business they are the business. That means the developer workflows will have to be radically rebuilt to handle the velocity and new tech for just coding. I call it architectural list. >> I like that. I might steal that. >> It's a pun, but it's also brings up the provocative question. You shouldn't have to need an architecture to code. I mean, Java was great for that reason in many ways. So, if that happens if the developers are running the business that means more apps. The apps is the business. You got to have tool chains and productivity. You can't have fragmentation. Some people are saying WebAssembly might, fork tool chains, might challenge the developer productivity. what's your answer to that? How would you address that objection? >> I mean the threat of forking is always lurking in the corner in open source. In a way it's probably a positive threat because it keeps us honest it keeps us wanting to be inclusive again and keep people involved. Honestly though, I'm not particularly worried about it. I know that the W-3 as a standards body, of course, one of the most respected standards bodies on the planet. They do html, they do cascading style sheets. WebAssembly is in that camp and those of us in the core are really very interested in saying, you know, come on in, let's build something that's going to be where the core is solid and you know what you got and then you can go into the resurgence of the application server. I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that, and we can only get there if we say, all right, here are the common paradigms that we're all going to agree to use, now let's go build stuff. >> And as we've been saying, developers are setting, I think are going to set the standards and they're going to vote with their code and their feet, if you will. >> Savannah: A hundred percent. >> They will decide if you're not aligning with what they want to do. okay. On how they want to self-serve and or work, you'll figure that out. >> Yep, yep. >> You'll get instant feedback. >> Yeah. >> Well, you know, again, I tell you a huge fan of Docker. One of the things that Docker understood at the very outset, is that they had an infrastructure tool and developers were the way to get adoption, and if you look at how fast they got adoption versus many, many other technologies that are profoundly impacted. >> Savannah: Wild. >> Yeah. >> Savannah: It's a cool story. >> It's because they got the developers to go, "This is amazing, hey infrastructure folks, here's an infrastructure tool that we like" and the infrastructure folks are used to code being tossed over the wall are going, "Are you for real?" I mean, and that was a brilliant way to do it and I think that what.. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> We want to replay in the WebAssembly world is making it developer friendly and you know the kind of infrastructure that we can actually operate. >> Well congratulations to the entire community. We're huge fans of the concept. I kind of see where it's going with connect the dots. You guys getting a lot of buzz. I have to ask you, my final question is the hype is beyond all recognition at this point. People are super pumped and enthusiastic about it and people are looking at it maybe some challenging it, but that's all good things. How do you get to the next level where people are confident that this is actually going to go the next step? Hype to confidence. We've seen great hype. Envoy was hyped up big time before it came in, then it became great. That was one of my favorite examples. Hype is okay, but now you got to put some meat on the bone. The sizzle on the stake so to speak. So what's going to be the stake for you guys as you see this going forward? What's the need? >> Yeah, you know, I talk about our first guiding story was, you know, blinking cursor to deployed application in two minutes. That's what you need to win developers initially. So, what's the next story after that? It's got to be, Fermyon can run real world applications that solve real world problems. That's where hype often fails. If you can build something that's neat but nobody's quite sure what to do with it, to use it, maybe somebody will discover a good use. But, if you take that gambling asset, >> Savannah: It's that ending answer that makes the difference. >> Yeah, yeah. So we say, all right, what are developers trying to build with our platform and then relentlessly focus on making that easier and solving the real world problem that way. That's the crucial thing that's going to drive us out of that sort of early hype stage into a well adopted technology and I talk from Fermyon point of view but really that's for all of us in the WebAssembly. >> John: Absolutely. >> Very well stated Matt, just to wrap us up when we're interviewing you here on theCUBE next year, what do you hope to be able to say then that you can't say today? >> All this stuff about coffee we didn't cover today, but also.. (all chuckles) >> Savannah: Here for the coffee show. Only analogies, that's a great analogy. >> I want to walk here and say, you know last time we talked about being able to achieve density in servers that was, you know, 10 times Kubernetes. Next year I want to say no, we're actually thousands of times beyond Kubernetes that we're lowering people's electricity bill by making these servers more efficient and the developers love it. >> That your commitment to the environment is something I want to do an entirely different show on. We learned that 7-8% of all the world's powers actually used on data centers through the show this week which is jarring quite frankly. >> Yeah, yeah. Tragic would be a better way of saying that. >> Yeah, I'm holding back so that we don't go over time here quite frankly. But anyways, Matt Butcher thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you so much for having me it was pleasure.. >> You are worth the hype you are getting. I am grateful to have you as our WebAssembly thought leader. In addition to Scott today from Docker earlier in the show. John Furrier, thanks for being my co-host and thank all of you for tuning into theCUBE here, live from Detroit. I'm Savannah Peterson and we'll be back with more soon. (ambient music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Obviously, CUBE's coverage with our CUBE Center Report. We're not there on the ground, but we have folks and our CUBE Alumni there. We have entrepreneurs there. Of course, we want to be there in person, but we're remote. We've got Ben Hirschberg, CTO and Co-Founder of Armo, a cloud native security startup, well positioned in this industry. He's there in Seattle. Ben, thank you for coming on and sharing what's going on with theCUBE. >> Yeah, it's great to be here, John. >> So we had written on you guys up on SiliconANGLE. Congratulations on your momentum and traction. But let's first get into what's going on there on the ground? What are some of the key trends? What's the most important story being told there? What is the vibe? What's the most important story right now? >> So I think, I would like to start here with the I think the most important thing was that I think the event is very successful. Usually, the Cloud Native Security Day usually was part of KubeCon in the previous years and now it became its own conference of its own and really kudos to all the organizers who brought this up in, actually in a short time. And it wasn't really clear how many people will turn up, but at the end, we see a really nice turn up and really great talks and keynotes around here. I think that one of the biggest trends, which haven't started like in this conference, but already we're talking for a while is supply chain. Supply chain is security. I think it's, right now, the biggest trend in the talks, in the keynotes. And I think that we start to see companies, big companies, who are adopting themselves into this direction. There is a clear industry need. There is a clear problem and I think that the cloud native security teams are coming up with tooling around it. I think for right now we see more tools than adoption, but the adoption is always following the tooling. And I think it already proves itself. So we have just a very interesting talk this morning about the OpenSSL vulnerability, which was I think around Halloween, which came out and everyone thought that it's going to be a critical issue for the whole cloud native and internet infrastructure and at the end it turned out to be a lesser problem, but the reason why I think it was understood that to be a lesser problem real soon was that because people started to use (indistinct) store software composition information in the environment so security teams could look into, look up in their systems okay, what, where they're using OpenSSL, which version they are using. It became really soon real clear that this version is not adopted by a wide array of software out there so the tech surface is relatively small and I think it already proved itself that the direction if everyone is talking about. >> Yeah, we agree, we're very bullish on this move from the Cloud Native Foundation CNCF that do the security conference. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent. That's their big show, but they also have re:Inforce, the security show, so clearly they work together. I like the decoupling, very cohesive. But you guys have Kubescape of Kubernetes security. Talk about the conversations that are there and that you're hearing around why there's different event what's different around KubeCon and CloudNativeCon than this Cloud Native SecurityCon. It's not called KubeSucSecCon, it's called Cloud Native SecurityCon. What's the difference? Are people confused? Is it clear? What's the difference between the two shows? What are you hearing? >> So I think that, you know, there is a good question. Okay, where is Cloud Native Computing Foundation came from? Obviously everyone knows that it was somewhat coupled with the adoption of Kubernetes. It was a clear understanding in the industry that there are different efforts where the industry needs to come together without looking be very vendor-specific and try to sort out a lot of issues in order to enable adoption and bring great value and I think that the main difference here between KubeCon and the Cloud Native Security Conference is really the focus, and not just on Kubernetes, but the whole ecosystem behind that. The way we are delivering software, the way we are monitoring software, and all where Kubernetes is only just, you know, maybe the biggest clog in the system, but, you know, just one of the others and it gives great overview of what you have in the whole ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think it's a good call. I would add that what I'm hearing too is that security is so critical to the business model of every company. It's so mainstream. The hackers have a great business model. They make money, their costs are lower than the revenue. So the business of hacking in breaches, ransomware all over the place is so successful that they're playing offense, everyone's playing defense, so it's about time we can get focus to really be faster and more nimble and agile on solving some of these security challenges in open source. So I think that to me is a great focus and so I give total props to the CNC. I call it the event operating system. You got the security group over here decoupled from the main kernel, but they work together. Good call and so this brings back up to some of the things that are going on so I have to ask you, as your startup as a CTO, you guys have the Kubescape platform, how do you guys fit into the landscape and what's different from your tools for Kubernetes environments versus what's out there? >> So I think that our journey is really interesting in the solution space because I think that our mode really tries to understand where security can meet the actual adoption because as you just said, somehow we have to sort out together how security is going to be automated and integrated in its best way. So Kubescape project started as a Kubernetes security posture tool. Just, you know, when people are really early in their adoption of Kubernetes systems, they want to understand whether the installation is is secure, whether the basic configurations are look okay, and giving them instant feedback on that, both in live systems and in the CICD, this is where Kubescape came from. We started as an open source project because we are big believers of open source, of the power of open source security, and I can, you know I think maybe this is my first interview when I can say that Kubescape was accepted to be a CNCF Sandbox project so Armo was actually donating the project to the CNCF, I think, which is a huge milestone and a great way to further the adoption of Kubernetes security and from now on we want to see where the users in Armo and Kubescape project want to see where the users are going, their Kubernetes security journey and help them to automatize, help them to to implement security more fast in the way the developers are using it working. >> Okay, if you don't mind, I want to just get clarification. What's the difference between the Armo platform and Kubescape because you have Kubescape Sandbox project and Armo platform. Could you talk about the differences and interaction? >> Sure, Kubescape is an open source project and Armo platform is actually a managed platform which runs Kubescape in the cloud for you because Kubescape is part, it has several parts. One part is, which is running inside the Kubernetes cluster in the CICD processes of the user, and there is another part which we call the backend where the results are stored and can be analyzed further. So Armo platform gives you managed way to run the backend, but I can tell you that backend is also, will be available within a month or two also for everyone to install on their premises as well, because again, we are an open source company and we are, we want to enable users, so the difference is that Armo platform is a managed platform behind Kubescape. >> How does Kubescape differ from closed proprietary sourced solutions? >> So I can tell you that there are closed proprietary solutions which are very good security solutions, but I think that the main difference, if I had to pick beyond the very specific technicalities is the worldview. The way we see that our user is not the CISO. Our user is not necessarily the security team. From our perspective, the user is the DevOps and the developers who are working on the Kubernetes cluster day to day and we want to enable them to improve their security. So actually our approach is more developer-friendly, if I would need to define it very shortly. >> What does this risk calculation score you guys have in Kubscape? That's come up and we cover that in our story. Can you explain to the folks how that fits in? Is it Kubescape is the platform and what's the benefit, what's the purpose? >> So the risk calculation is actually a score we are giving to clusters in order for the users to understand where they are standing in the general population, how they are faring against a perfect hardened cluster. It is based on the number of different tests we are making. And I don't want to go into, you know, the very specifics of the mathematical functions, but in general it takes into account how many functions are failing, security tests are failing inside your cluster. How many nodes you are having, how many workloads are having, and creating this number which enables you to understand where you are standing in the global, in the world. >> What's the customer value that you guys pitching? What's the pitch for the Armo platform? When you go and talk to a customer, are they like, "We need you." Do they come to you? Is it word of mouth? You guys have a strategy? What's the pitch? What's so appealing to the customers? Why are they enthusiastic about you guys? >> So John, I can tell you, maybe it's not so easy to to say the words, but I nearly 20 years in the industry and though I've been always around cyber and the defense industry and I can tell you that I never had this journey where before where I could say that the the customers are coming to us and not we are pitching to customers. Simply because people want to, this is very easy tool, very very easy to use, very understandable and it very helps the engineers to improve security posture. And they're coming to us and they're saying, "Well, awesome, okay, how we can like use it. Do you have a graphical interface?" And we are pointing them to the Armor platform and they are falling in love and coming to us even more and we can tell you that we have a big number of active users behind the platform itself. >> You know, one of the things that comes up every time at KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon when we're there, and we'll be in Amsterdam, so folks watching, you know, we'll see onsite, developer productivity is like the number one thing everyone talks about and security is so important. It's become by default a blocker or anchor or a drag on productivity. This is big, the things that you're mentioning, easy to use, engineering supporting it, developer adoption, you know we've always said on theCUBE, developers will be the de facto standards bodies by their choices 'cause developers make all the decisions. So if I can go faster and I can have security kind of programmed in, I'm not shifting left, it's just I'm just having security kind of in there. That's the dream state. Is that what you guys are trying to do here? Because that's the nirvana, everyone wants to do that. >> Yeah, I think your definition is like perfect because really we had like this, for a very long time we had this world where we decoupled security teams from developers and even for sometimes from engineering at all and I think for multiple reasons, we are more seeing a big convergence. Security teams are becoming part of the engineering and the engineering becoming part of the security and as you're saying, okay, the day-to-day world of developers are becoming very tangled up in the good way with security, so the think about it that today, one of my developers at Armo is creating a pull request. He's already, code is already scanned by security scanners for to test for different security problems. It's already, you know, before he already gets feedback on his first time where he's sharing his code and if there is an issue, he already can solve it and this is just solving issues much faster, much cheaper, and also you asked me about, you know, the wipe in the conference and we know no one can deny the current economic wipe we have and this also relates to security teams and security teams has to be much more efficient. And one of the things that everyone is talking, okay, we need more automation, we need more, better tooling and I think we are really fitting into this. >> Yeah, and I talked to venture capitalists yesterday and today, an angel investor. Best time for startup is right now and again, open source is driving a lot of value. Ben, it's been great to have you on and sharing with us what's going on on the ground there as well as talking about some of the traction you have. Just final question, how old's the company? How much funding do you have? Where you guys located? Put a plug in for the company. You guys looking to hire? Tell us about the company. Were you guys located? How much capital do you have? >> So, okay, the company's here for three years. We've passed a round last March with Tiger and Hyperwise capitals. We are located, most of the company's located today in Israel in Tel Aviv, but we have like great team also in Ukraine and also great guys are in Europe and right now also Craig Box joined us as an open source VP and he's like right now located in New Zealand, so we are a really global team, which I think it's really helps us to strengthen ourselves. >> Yeah, and I think this is the entrepreneurial equation for the future. It's really great to see that global. We heard that in Priyanka Sharma's keynote. It's a global culture, global community. >> Right. >> And so really, really props you guys. Congratulations on Armo and thanks for coming on theCUBE and sharing insights and expertise and also what's happening on the ground. Appreciate it, Ben, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, cheers. Okay, this is CUB coverage here of the Cloud Native SecurityCon in North America 2023. I'm John Furrier for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We're back with more of wrap up of the event after this short break. (gentle upbeat music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE presents KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon Europe, 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain. A coverage of KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. Your host of theCUBE, along with Paul Gillum, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle, Enrico, Senior IT Analyst for GigaOm . This has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food, this is just unexpected. I mean, it escalated from what I understand, it went from capping it off at 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in it off finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for... Today's been a great dead coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage from theCUBE, but first off, we'll let the the new person on stage take the first question of the wrap up of the day of coverage, Enrico, what's different about this year versus other KubeCons or Cloud Native conversations. >> I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk a lot about day two operations, observability, monitoring, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around FinOps, around cost control, because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And if you don't have everything optimized, control, monitored, costs go to the roof and think about deploying the Public Cloud . If your application is not optimized, you're paying more. But also in that, on-premises if you are not optimized, you don't have any clear idea what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare, that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, really exciting actually, less infrastructure, more application. That is what Kubernetes is in here. >> Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. There is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that Enterprise Architects, Executives, need to take home and really chew on? >> Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. Docker was introduced nine years ago, and for the first three or four years it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward IT Managers, towards CIOs, this is very much geared toward developers. When you have the hearts and minds of developers the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest area of the entire computing industry right now, is in this area building Distributed services, Microservices based, Cloud Native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's a significant shift. I don't see the Managers here, the CIOs here. These are the people who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >> One of the interesting things that I've seen when we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with an icon from MoneyGram, who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect, and he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers, and they rejected it. They said, what is this? I just want to develop code. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers or the developers are here, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have Enterprise Architect here. I hear constantly that the Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >> Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, everything has changed to a point and now the developer understands, is neural. So, going through the application, APIs, automation, because the complexity of this application is huge, and you have, 724 kind of development sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on, et cetera, et cetera. And actually, to the point of developers bringing this new generation of decision makers in there. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow IT at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the Executive, says what are... They discover that the technology is already in place is a critical component, and then it's transformed in something enterprise, meaning paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure support contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these guys are the real decision makers, or they are at the base of the decision making process, at least >> Cloud Native is something we're going to learn to take for granted. When you remember back, remember the Fail Whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just crash from traffic, or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take Cloud Native for granted. We assume applications are going to be available. They're going to be performant. They're going to scale. They're going to handle anything we throw at them. That is Cloud Native at work. And I think we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have an internet that really works for you. >> Yeah, I think we're much earlier in the journey. We had Microsoft on, the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running Linkerd some of the initial problems and pain points around those challenges. Much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we see or hear or told? Or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example, where central IT is getting it. And not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to simply write code, build it, and Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the Holy Grail to make Kubernetes invisible and Cloud Native invisible, and the experience is much closer to Cloud. >> So I think that, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original traditional IT operations are disappearing. So it's just that traditional IT operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay, so it's a sort of walled garden, you don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal Cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private Cloud, the private Cloud as let's say the same identical paradigm of the Public Cloud is not possible, because there are no infinite resources or well, whatever we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can do automatic operationing and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So IT operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think an interesting time for all of it. >> Kubernetes and Cloud Native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities. Obviously with DevOps, those two are emerging. But now we're moving when you add in shift left testing, shift right testing, DevSecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is going to cause, I think IT organizations to have to do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're going to run on. >> So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >> Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year, of course, really, ever since the pandemic started. Interestingly, one of our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available, because people who were tied to their companies because of their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater and suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the startups, there are many small startups here, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the tech stock bust. Nevertheless, skills are a long term problem. The US educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >> So Enrico, last question to you. Let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out there. 200 plus sponsors I hear, I think is worth the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level Cloud builder? Or should it be at those levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >> I think that it's a good question. The answer is not that easy. I mean, being a developer today, for sure, grants you a salary at the end of the month. I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical figures in the data center, in the Cloud, that could really find easily a job today. So, developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be somebody that supports operation because you know automation, you know a few other things. So you can be a sysadmin of the next generation even if you are a developer, even if when you start as a developer. >> KubeCon 2022, is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer, practitioner, a investor, IT decision maker, CIO, CXO, there's so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder, I'm not going to say you're going to get sick of this because it's just, it's all great information, we'll help sort all of this. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host Enrico Signoretti, Paul Gillum, and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

hello and welcome to this cube conversation this is part of our continuing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2021 i have a very special guest with us uh from a technology company that on any given day at any given moment has any number of 31 million discrete users coming in looking for a specific item or two out of 22 23 24 million who knows how many items that could be shipped from 15 16 17 000 different locations around the globe and we've got one of the key folks responsible for managing what some of us in tech would refer to by the technical term a nightmare uh gary white from wayfair welcome hey thanks for having me yeah so tell us about wayfair what is wayfair we're all going to pretend like none of us have heard of wayfair before despite billions of dollars in advertising what is wayfair what do you get what do you what do you guys do before we get into the technology and how it actually works yeah uh that's a great question wayfair it uh exists to be the destination for all things home helping everybody and create a feeling of being at home uh so that's like our primary goal from the um overall business objective specifically in the technology uh part of the company we strive to make development of tools that make the shopping process easier uh carrying one of the widest like spaces of items means that we have to have incredible resiliency in our data and access to that data and then we try to build world-class development tools to compete with uh talent market um that is some of the biggest firms in the world okay so so just so we're clear because i want to make sure you came to the right to the right place this isn't furniture con this is cloud native con and you're not an you're not an artisan crafter of bespoke end tables right so you you craft a very different thing which is the uh which is the technical infrastructure behind this tell us about your relationship with uh with cloud native technologies in the open source world oh sure absolutely so my experience at wayfair has mostly consisted of um exposing the release engineering process and making the process of developing tools easier i think most companies invest about or a lot of companies invest a significant amount of their engineering talent into being able to create a platform for their developers to work on top of uh that's the team that i'm a part of where we create a platform for our developers and a large part of how we do that is leveraging technology that comes out of the cncf so we'll be talking about uh automation tools um things that you may run in kubernetes to do batch jobs things that you may run in kubernetes to run uh regular microservices and applications and then ways to automate the building of those applications and the packaging of it so that it can ship to production reliably and so you guys you guys aren't just you know when we go back several decades there were customers and there were vendors and those lines are really blurred in the open source community they have been for a long time but i mean you're you're actually working not only to develop solutions for wayfarer but you're working hand in hand with other people to develop solutions that get propagated across industry tell us about some of those projects that that you're involved with with the open source community or at least where wayfarer is absolutely so uh wayfair has made an investment in the open source community specifically notably with the tremor project you can go to tremor.rs and i'm actually speaking about it at cubecon that's where the topic comes from tremor is a early stage and uh event processing system where you can give it a lot of data for it to be able to ingest and then spit out downstream to other systems you may want to send events and notifications out to multiple systems based on what you see you may want to throttle the amount of data that you have coming in and that was a big topic that i also mentioned at the cloud native con uh and at tremorcon where you can deal with this really massive volume that we have to do at the scale that we exist as a as a business and just um filter it so that it doesn't overwhelm everything downstream in observability's sake well you know that tremor must be cool if it has its own con right yeah that's very cool you know you've arrived when you've had a con eventually i'm i'm i'm working toward dave khan we we'd make it dave and gary khan if we need to but oh absolutely so can you can you take those concepts of events and and data flow and and kind of up level that in terms of the kinds of things that are happening between customers and wayfair on a moment-by-moment basis so so give me an example of like you know what what is an event sure yeah so events if you're familiar with the open telemetry or observability framework you might call them signals where you have something happen on your infrastructure that's processed in a way that you would want to record so you might have a log that you need to be able to trace through later in case there's something happens or you just want to be able to comb your logs you may have uh metrics that you're sending in like how many requests you've gotten or how many bytes you've been processing in your service uh you may have baggage that you associate with that data um so yeah all of these different kinds of signals as defined in the open telemetry spec are things that we support in tremor and we supported before the hotel project really made it a form it was something we did out of necessity and similar products that you might find are like log stash and elastic in that whole stack okay so if so if uh if i'm looking for something for my home office uh although you can see i've got tons of garbage already in my home office um what what happens to me as a customer if all of what you just described goes wrong what happens to my experience that's a great question so as we're talking about tremor if something were to go wrong it shouldn't impact the experience of the service itself because tremor is designed to not create any load on your service as you are executing it you have the option to run it as a standalone server where you give it the resources that it needs by itself uh if that turns out to be too much of a burden for the application and you need to do a sidecar kind of model where you actually deploy it alongside your application directly in the same pod or sometimes even in the same container as a different process it's lightweight enough that you can do that which is part of the reason why we like it and why we built it is that we found that many of the other solutions for processing these signals just simply took up too much compute to be competitive with what we were able to create ourselves how and how long have you been with wayfair uh i've been with wayfair for almost three years uh three years in october or it is october so three years hooray hey hey happy happy anniversary yeah so obviously you couldn't have predicted the you know the the massive shift in all of our lives um and maybe you didn't completely fully appreciate just how well prepared wayfare was for this crazy shift in all of our lives when you entered in um i'm not gonna let you pretend uh that uh that you know that you knew and that your your iq is 20 points higher than it actually is because you decided to go to a place that was actually prepared but what what is share with us what that has been like i mean what is it like to be somewhere where the sky appeared to be falling and then all of a sudden the demands went through the roof what was that like that was a extremely chaotic but ultimately uh successful time for the company obviously um it's shown definitely in what you can find um in our stock and how we've been doing with technology that we did very well during the pandemic we were able to use the technology that we already had and be effective in adopting some more of the cncf portfolio and some more of like cloud native practices to make the um to make our infrastructure run better than it ever did at a time where we were in a crunch to be able to do better than we ever um had as a business and i believe that those two things are related the or this is my personal philosophy for sure that i believe that the adoption of these cloud native practices uh especially being pushed from the platform team that i work on were instrumental in being able to create an environment where developers can deliver value more reliably where then the experience of shopping at wayfair becomes dramatically better and can handle the scale that you see when everybody decides to start shopping everybody decides to start furnishing their home office i was going to make a joke that i bet that at least one of those things behind you was from wakefield you could be right although although some of the things over my shoulder are very strange movie prop type items so but uh but you would be you would be guessing correctly i was very very excited to talk to you um from uh from a technology standpoint because again you guys were prepared for this you you can't respond uh in a way quickly enough that doesn't crush you unless you've prepared and you've got a framework that draws upon cloud native technologies just just as you as you outlined um so against that backdrop what are you seeing in uh from a technology standpoint in retail in general are you are you plugged into that much think of think of legacy uh furniture outlets trying to pivot into the world of cloud native native take your take your wayfarer hat off you know your partisan hat in terms of competition off for a moment and and talk to me about you know if you're advising a fill in the blank legacy retail store that's just dying right now that wanted to have an online presence from a technical standpoint how would you advise them what would you steer them in the direction of i would definitely say that um just in time engineering has actually served wayfarer extremely well where we're not over engineering the solutions and using the big fancy tools until we know that we need them so i think that when we see businesses or we see anybody any organization that decides to adopt everything first and then see whether or not it scales up they don't see the results that they wanted because they're not using something that's appropriate for the size of the problem that they're trying to solve so for example if if an experience that i can share from what we went through uh i was part of and i've spoken and have some posts about um like being able to scale up just the automation infrastructure for wayfair where we were using a solution that worked pretty well but we didn't think about what was going to happen when it grew and we didn't react when it actually did grow and so by instead reassessing okay we're a different size company now we have different size needs for automation and different flexibility requirements to be able to use it effectively we need to be able to adopt containers we need to be able to support deployment into kubernetes how can we get there and then continuing to evaluate that even during the process of building and during the process of making that available to the rest of the company i think that if you're starting that process fresh or even if you're in the middle of that process it's important to right size the solution and consider whether or not it it's if your online business isn't mid-tier but it's enterprise then you need to build a system for that if you have an online system that's actually doing not much of your business don't build for the enterprise yet build for the size and then continue to scale it up as you go um another thing that i i just have to plug about the cncf solutions is that they're incredible at being flexible to that scale that if you pick things that go from low to mid tier then you can hand off from mid to high tier and then from high tier into enterprise scale and i think that those things are available in the cncf landscape and it's part of why we're excited to to be part of it ourselves so if you had a magic wand and you could solve one headache that you experience in your daily life from a technology perspective can you can you think of anything that you would uh you would conjure up absolutely uh i i struggle and have struggled pretty much my entire career uh with being able to get like a good picture of the adoption of any given tool within the company and i know that perhaps not every engineer um that works with technology within a big enterprise firm has to think about whether or not their tool is being used a lot um folks may not think about is the person next to me using python or is the next person next to them using java um being able to have that kind of insight into what people use how frequently they're deploying and how much they use it would be an incredible gain for us to be able to make better decisions about the platform of the company yeah yeah and you know you know the uh potentially the irony there is um at the sort of tip of the spear of your business understanding the customer everything about them you possibly can is so important to give them a really really good experience and sometimes enterprises that have that know all sorts of information about me don't know what their developers are doing in a whole list in a holistic fashion uh with a few clicks i can tell you exactly how many orders i've ordered from get from a given online retailer in the last nine years um but uh but i doubt they could tell me a lot about some of their infrastructure so that's that's interesting uh well what else what else can you share with us about wayfair are there any anything that's not super proprietary and secret that you could share that's an interesting data point we were joking beforehand about yeah what is it is it 8 billion in your sales is it red staplers or uh any kind of factoids that people would be surprised about yeah i i think folks um something that's definitely not proprietary because it's literally on github.com uh we just recently started putting a lot more elbow grease into our open source repositories it's becoming hacktoberfest now and we're very excited to be able to have these kind of more polished products things that we expect people to be able to contribute to where not even a year ago it wasn't uncommon to have teams within the company that would open source their project and then they would completely lose track of it and we had like some um we had to create new organizations to actually maintain them over time so i i feel like a really exciting thing that we're doing now is contributing to open source and earnest and actually getting developers time scheduled to be able to dedicate to that effort um i think a lot of the biggest companies that are the most successful uh make time for their developers to be able to contribute back as well as being able to contribute just to the proprietary code that every company has to maintain absolutely because human as human beings we don't want to be toiling in obscurity right and uh you know at what becomes a soul-killing exercise when you can actually get out there and have that sense of community uh which is you know it's central to uh to open source it's a testament to wayfair that they know that it's in their best interest as a as an organization to nurture that kind of talent uh uh within so uh on that on that very positive note uh i'd like to thank you so much for your time gary um and i appreciate the uh the plug for uh for shoes uh over over over your shoulder uh and uh just just wanna say again thanks a lot uh best of luck with your uh with your talk for q con and with that i will sign off thanks for joining this cube conversation with gary white of wayfair in our continuing coverage of kubecon cloud native con north america 2021 i'm dave nicholson thanks for tuning in you

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners hey welcome back everybody jeff frick here with thecube coming to you from our palo alto studios for the continuing coverage of kubecon cloud native con 2020 north america there was the european version earlier in the summer it's all virtual uh so the good news is we don't have to get on planes and we can get guests from all over the world and we're excited to welcome back for his return to the cube ricardo rocha he is a staff member and computing engineer at cern ricardo great to see you hello thanks for having me absolutely and you're coming in from uh from geneva so you're you already had a good thursday i bet yeah we're just finishing right now yeah right so in in getting ready for this um interview i was looking at the interview that you did i think it was two cube cons ago uh in may of 2019 and it just strikes me a lot of people know what cern is but a lot of people don't know what's cern in so i wonder if you can just give you know kind of the 101 of what cern's mission is and what is some of the work that you guys do there yeah sure uh so cern is the european organization for uh nuclear research we are the largest particle physics laboratory in the world and our main mission is uh fundamental research so we try to answer big questions about why don't we see antimatter what is dark matter or dark energy other questions about the origin of the universe and to answer these questions we build very large machines particle accelerators where we try to recreate some of [Music] the moments just after the universe was created the big bang to try to understand better what was the state of the matter at that time the result of all of this is very often a lot of data that has to be analyzed and that's why we traditionally have had a huge requirements for computing resources during the the start of cern we always had this this large large requirements right and so you have this large particle accelerators as you said large machines the one that you've got now the the latest one how long has that one been operational yeah so it started uh like maybe around 10 years ago the first launch was a bit before that uh and it's uh it's a very large uh it's the largest one ever built so it's 27 kilometers in perimeter we inject protons into different uh directions and then we we make them collide where we build these huge detectors that can can see what's happening in these collisions uh the the main the main particle accelerator is this one we do have other experiments we have a nancy meta factory that is just uh down from my office and we have other types of experiments as well going right 27 kilometers that's a big that's a big number and then and then again just so people get some type of sense of scale so then you you you speed up the particles you smash them together you see what happens they collect all the data what types of data sets are generated off off just a one you know kind of event and i don't even know if that's a relative you know if that's a valid measure how do how do you measure kind of quantities of data around event just you know kind of for orders of magnitude right so uh the way it works is as you said we accelerate the particles to very close to the speed of light and we increase the energy by by having the beams well controlled and then at specific points we make them collide we have this gigantic detectors underground all of this is 100 meters in the ground and these detectors are pretty much a very large camera that would take something like 40 million pictures a second and the result of this is a huge amount of data each of these detectors can generate up to one petabyte of second this is not something we can record so what we do is we have hardware filters that will bring this down to something we can manage which is in the order of a few tens of gigabytes per second wow so you've been you've got a very serious computing challenge ahead of you because you're the one that's on the hook for for grabbing the data recording the data making the data available for for people to use um on their experiments um so we're here at kubecon cloud native con where did containers come into the story uh and and kubernetes specifically what was the real uh challenge that you're trying to overcome yeah so uh this is a a long story of uh using distributed computing at cern and other types of computing so as i mentioned we generate a lot of data we generate something like 7 but of 70 petabytes of data every year and we accumulated something over one half an exabyte of data by now so uh traditionally we've had to build this software ourselves um which was uh because there was not so many people around that would have this kind of needs but this revolution with containers and the clouds appearing kind of allowed us to to join other other communities and benefit also from their work and not have to do everything ourselves so this is the main probe for us to start doing this the other point is more containerization we traditionally are very we have a lot of needs to share information but also share resources between physicists and engineers so this idea of containerizing the work including all the code all the data and then sharing this with our colleagues is very appealing the fact that we can also take this unit of work and just deploy it in any infrastructure that has a standardized api like kubernetes and scale that monitoring the same way it's also very appealing so all of these things kind of connect with our way of working our natural way of working i would say right so you've talked about the this upgrade is coming um to the particle accelerator in a couple four or five years whatever that timeline is relatively soon um this as you've said before is a huge step function in the data that's that that's going to come off these experiments i mean how are you keeping up on the compute side with the fundamental shift in on kind of the physics side and the data that's going to be generated to make sure that you can keep up and i think you said it in a prior interview somewhere along the way that you know you don't want to be the bottleneck when there's all this great work being done but if it's not captured and made available for people to do stuff with the data then you know it's not uh it's not the greatest experiment so how are you keeping up and and what's the relative scale to have what you got to do on the compute side to keep up with the the guys on the physics side yeah so the the the idea well we what we will have to deal with is an increase of 10 times of more data than we have today we already have a lot and very soon we'll have a lot more but this is not i would say this is not the first time this kind of uh step happens uh in our computing we always kind of found a new technology or a new way to do things that would improve in in this case uh what we do is we do what we always do which is we try to look for all sorts of new technologies or all sorts of new resources that we could make use of in this case a lot is involving improving our own software to replace what we currently use with hardware triggers to replace that with software-based using accelerators gpus and other types of accelerators this will play a big role and also making our software more efficient in this way the second thing that we are doing is trying to make our infrastructure more agile and this is where cloud native kubernetes plays a huge role so that we can benefit from external resources uh we we can always think of like expanding our in on-premises resources but it's also very good to be able to just go and fish around if there's something available externally kubernetes plays a very big role in that respect as well yeah i'd love to dig into that a little deeper because the cloud native foundation is a super active foundation obviously a ton of activity around kubernetes so what does that mean to you as an infrastructure provider you know to your own company being on the hook to have now you know kind of an open source community that's supporting you indirectly via ongoing developments and ongoing projects and having as you said kind of this broader group of brain power to pull from to help you move your own infrastructure along yeah i think this this is great we've had really good experiences in the past we've been uh heavy users of uh linux from from from for a very long time we've used openstack for our private cloud and we've been heavily involved in that community as well we not only uh contribute as end users but we also uh offer some some manpower for development and helping with the community and we are doing the same with kubernetes uh and this is uh this is really we we end up getting a lot more than we we are putting in the community we are quite involved but uh it's so large and and and with such big players that have very similar needs to ours that uh we end up having a lot a lot more back than we are putting in we try to help as much as possible but uh yeah we have limited resources as well now open source is an amazing it's just an amazing innovation uh machine and and obviously it's proved as its value over a lot of things from linux to kubernetes being one of the most recent i want to shift gears a little bit right and ask you just your your take on public cloud right one of the huge benefits of public cloud is is the flexibility to add capacity shrink capacity as you need it and you talked again in a prior thing i was looking at you know that you definitely have spikes uh in demand spikes whether there's a high frequency of experiments i don't know how frequently you run those things versus maybe a conference or something where you said people you know want to get access to the data run experiments prior to your conference do you where does public cloud play in your thoughts and maybe you're there today maybe you're not how do you think about you know kind of public cloud generically but more specifically you know that ability to add a little bit more flex in your compute horsepower or are you just going up into the right up into the right and not really flexing down very much yeah so this is this is something we've been working on for a few years now uh we it's uh it's uh it's i would say it's an ongoing work it's a situation that will will not uh be very clear for the for the next few years but again what what we try to do is just to explore as much as possible all kinds of resources that can help us what we did in the kubecon last year was this demonstration that we can actually scale we can scale out and burst for for this uh spiky workloads we have we can burst to the to the public cloud quite easily using this kind of cloud native technologies that we have today and this is extremely important because it kind of changes our mindset instead of having to to think only on investing on premises we can think that maybe we can cover for the majority of use cases but then explore and burst to the public cloud this has to be easy in terms of infrastructure and that we are at that point right now with kubernetes we also have kind of workload that is maybe easier to do these things than than a traditional i.t where services are very interconnected in our case we are more thinking of batch workloads where we can just submit jobs uh and then fetch the data back right this also has a few challenges but but it's i would say it's it's easier than the traditional ite service deployments the other aspect where the public cloud is also very interesting is uh for resources that we don't have in large quantities so we have a very large farm for with cpus we have some gpus and it's very good to be able to explore this new accelerator technologies and maybe expand our available pool of accelerators by going to the public cloud maybe to use them but also to validate to see which ones are best for our use cases and explore that option as well it's not only general capacity it's really like dedicated um hardware that we might not even have ever like we think of tpus or ipu's it's something that is very interesting that we can scale and just go go use them in the public cloud yeah that's a really interesting point because because the cloud providers are big enough now right that they're building all kind of specialized specialized server specialized uh cpu specialized gpus dpus is a new one i've heard a data processing unit as you said there's fpgas and all kinds of accelerators so it is a really rich environment for as you said to do your experiments and find what the optimal solution is for whatever that particular workload is but ricardo i want to shift gears a little bit as we come to the end of 2020 thankfully for a whole bunch of reasons as you look forward to 2021 i mean clearly anticipating and starting to plan to get ready for your upgrade as a priority i'm just curious what are your other priorities and how does you know kind of the compute infrastructure in terms of an investment within cern you know kind of rank with the investment around the physical things that you're building the big machines because without the compute those other things really don't provide much data and i know those are we always talked about how expensive the particle accelerators is it's an interesting number and it's big but you guys are a big piece of that as well so what are your priorities looking forward to 2021 yeah from from the compute side i think we are keeping the the priorities in similar to what we've been doing the last few years which is to make sure that we improve all our automation to improve efficiency as well to prepare for these upgrades we have but also there's a lot of activity in this new uh area with machine learning popping up we have a ton of services appearing where people want to to start doing machine learning in many many use cases in some cases they want to do the filtering in the detectors in other cases they want to generate simulation data a lot faster using machine learning as well so i think this will be something that will be a huge topic for next year even for the next couple of years which is to see how we can offer our users and physicists the best service so that they don't have to care about the infrastructure they don't have to know about the details of how they scale their their model training their serving of their models all of this i think this will be a very big topic um it's something that it's becoming really a big part of of the world computing for high energy physics and for cern as well that's great we see that a lot you know just applied machine learning to very specific problems you talked about you still can't even record all that information that comes off those things you have to do some compression technology and other things so real opportunities barely scratched on the surface of machine learning and ai but i'm sure you're going to be using it a ton well ricardo give you give you the last word um we're in at cncf's uh kubecon cloud native con you know what do you get out of these types of shows and why is this such again kind of why is it such an important piece of your way you get your job done yeah honestly uh with all this uh situation right now i kind of really miss this kind of conferences in person uh it's really a huge opportunity to connect with uh with the other end users but also with with the community and to talk to the developers discuss things over uh coffee beer this is something that is really something that is really useful to to have this kind of meetings every year uh i think what what uh i always try to say is uh this this wall infrastructure is is truly making a big impact in the way we do things so we can only thank the community uh it's it allows us to to kind of shift to focusing on a higher level to focus more on our use cases instead of having to focus so much on the infrastructure we kind of start giving it as a given that the infrastructure scales and we can just use it and focus on optimizing our own software so this is a huge contribution we can only thank the cncf projects and everyone involved great well thank you for that uh that summary and that that's a terrific summary so ricardo thank you so much for all your hard work answering really big helping answer really big questions and uh and for joining us today and sharing your insight thank you very much all right he's ricardo i'm jeff you're watching the cube from our palo alto studios for continuing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon 2020. thanks for watching see you next time [Music] you

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cube's coverage of kubecon plus cloud nativecon 2020 the virtual edition abinav joshi is here he's the senior product marketing manager for openshift at red hat and tom dean is the senior director of pro product management at cloudera gentlemen thanks for coming on thecube good to see you thank you very much for having us here hey guys i know you would be here it was great to have you and guys i know you're excited about the partnership and i definitely want to get in and talk about that but before we do i wonder if we could just set the tone you know what are you seeing in the market tom let's let's start with you i had a great deep dive a couple of weeks back with anupam singh and he brought me up to speed on what's new with cloudera but but one of the things we discussed was the accelerated importance of data putting data at the core of your digital business tom what are you seeing in the marketplace right now yeah absolutely so um overall we're still seeing a growing demand for uh storing and and processing massive massive amounts of data even in the past few months um where perhaps we see a little bit more variety is on by industry sector is on the propensity to adopt some of the latest and greatest uh technologies that are out there or that we we deliver to the market um so whether perhaps in the retail hospitality sector you may see a little bit more risk aversion around some of the latest tools then you you go to the healthcare industry as an example and you see we see a strong demand for our latest technologies uh with with everything that is that is going on um so overall um still a lot lots of demand around this space so abnormal i mean we just saw in ibm's earnings though the momentum of red hat you know growing in the mid teens and the explosion that we're seeing around containers and and obviously openshift is at the heart of that how the last nine months affected your customers priorities and what are you seeing yeah we've been a lot more busier like in the last few months because there's like a lot of use cases and if you look at the like a lot of the research and so on and we are seeing that from our customers as well that now the customers are actually speeding up the digital transformation right people say that okay kovac 19 has actually uh speeded up the digital transformation for a lot of our customers for the right reasons to be able to help the customers and so on so we are seeing a lot of attraction on like number of verticals and number of use cases beyond the traditional lab dev data analytics aiml messaging streaming edge and so on like lots of use cases in like a lot of different like industry verticals so there's a lot of momentum going on on openshift and the broader that portfolio as well yeah it's ironic the the timing of the pandemic but it sure underscores that this next 10 years is going to be a lot different than the last 10 years okay let's talk about some of the things that are new around data tom cloudera you guys have made a number of moves since acquiring hortonworks a little over two years ago what's new with uh with the cloudera data platform cdp sure so yes our latest therap uh platform is called cbp clara data platform last year we announced the public cloud version of cdp running on aws and then azure and what's new is just two months ago we announced the release of the version of this platform targeted at the data center and that's called cvp private cloud and really the focus of this platform this new version has been around solving some of the pain points that we see around agility or time to value and the ease of use of the platform and to give you some specific examples with our previous technology it could take a customer three months to provision a data warehouse if you include everything from obtaining the infrastructure to provisioning the warehouse loading the data setting security policies uh and fine-tuning the the software now with cbp private cloud we've been able to take those uh three months and turn it into three minutes so significant uh speed up in in that onboarding time and in time to valley and a key piece of this uh that enabled this this speed up was a revamping of the entire stack specifically the infrastructure and service services management layer and this is where the containerization of the platform comes in specifically kubernetes and red hat open shift that is a key piece of the puzzle that enables this uh order of magnitude uh improvement in time right uh now abner you think about uh red hat you think about cloudera of course hortonworks the stalwarts of of of open source you got kind of like birds of a feather how are red hat and cloudera partnering with each other you know what are the critical aspects of that relationship that people should be aware of yeah absolutely that's a very good question yeah so on the openshift side we've had a lot of momentum in the market and we have well over 2000 customers in terms of a lot of different verticals and the use cases that i talked about at the beginning of our conversation in terms of traditional and cloud native app dev databases data analytics like ai messaging and so on right and the value that you have with openshift and the containers kubernetes and devops like part of the solution being able to provide the agility flexibility scalability the cross cloud consistency like so all that that you see in a typical app dev world is directly applicable to fast track the data analytics and the ai projects as well and we've seen like a lot of customers and some of the ones that we can talk about in a public way like iix rbc bank hca healthcare boston children's bmw exxon mobil so all these organizations are being are able to leverage openshift to kind of speed up the ai projects and and help with the needs of the data engineers data scientists and uh and the app dev folks now from our perspective providing the best in class uh you say like experience for the customers at the platform level is key and we have to make sure that the tooling that the customers run on top of it uh gets the best in class the experience in terms of the day zero to day two uh management right and it's uh and and it's an ecosystem play for us and and and that's the way cloudera is the top isv in the space right when it comes to data analytics and ai and that was our key motivation to partner with cloudera in terms of bringing this joint solution to market and making sure that our customers are successful so the partnership is at all the different levels in the organization say both up and down as well as in the the engineering level the product management level the marketing level the sales level and at the support and services level as well so that way if you look at the customer journey in terms of selecting a solution uh putting it in place and then getting the value out of it so the partnership it actually spans across the entire spectrum yeah and tom you know i wonder if you could add anything there i mean it's not just about the public cloud with containers you're seeing obviously the acceleration of of cloud native principles on-prem in a hybrid you know across clouds it's sort of the linchpin containers really and kubernetes specifically linchpin to enable that what would you add to that discussion yeah as part of the partnership when we were looking for a vendor who could provide us that kubernetes layer we looked at our customer base and if you think about who clara is focused on we really go after that global the global 2000 firms out there these customers have very strict uh security requirements and they're often in these highly regulated uh industries and so when we looked at a customer's base uh we saw a lot of overlap and there was a natural good fit for us there but beyond that just our own technical evaluation of the solutions and also talking to uh to our own customers about who they do they see as a trusted platform that can provide enterprise grade uh features on on a kubernetes layer red hat had a clear leadership in in that front and that combined with our own uh long-standing relationship with our parent company ibm uh it made this partnership a natural good thing for us right and cloudera's always had a good relationship with ibm tom i want to stay with you if i can for a minute and talk about the specific joint solutions that you're providing with with red hat what are you guys bringing to customers in in terms of those solutions what's the business impact where's the value absolutely so the solution is called cbd or color data platform private cloud on red hat openshift and i'll describe three uh the three pillars that make up cbp uh first what we have is the five data analytic experiences and that is meant to cover the end to end data lifecycle in the first release we just came out two months ago we announced the availability of two of those five experiences we have data warehousing for bi analytics as well as machine learning and ai where we offer a collaborative data science data science tools for data scientists to come together do exploratory data analytics but also develop predictive models and push them to production going forward we'll be adding the remaining three uh experiences they include data engineering or transformations on uh on your data uh data flow for streaming analytics and ingest uh as well as operational database for uh real-time surveying of both structure and unstructured data so these five experiences have been re-banked right compared to our prior platform to target these specific use cases and simplify uh these data disciplines the second pillar that i'll talk about is the sdx or uh what what we call the shared data experience and what this is is the ability for these five experiences to have one global data set that they can all access with shared metadata security including fine grain permissions and a suite of governance tools that provide lineage provide auditing and business metadata so by having these shared data experiences our developers our users can build these multi-disciplinary workflows in a very straightforward way without having to create all this custom code and i can stitch you can stitch them together and the last pillar that i'll mention uh is the containerization of of the platform and because of containers because of kubernetes we're now able to offer that next level of agility isolation uh and infrastructure efficiency on the platform so give you a little bit more specific examples on the agility i mentioned going from three months to three minutes in terms of the speed up with i uh with uh containers we can now also give our users the ability to bring their own versions of their libraries and engines without colliding with another user who's sharing the platform that has been a big ask from our customers and last i'll mention infrastructure efficiency by re-architecting our services to running a microservices architecture we can now impact those servers in a much more efficient way we can also auto scale auto suspend bring all this as you mentioned bring all these cloud native concepts on premises and the end result of that is better infrastructure efficiency now our customers can do more with the same amount of hard work which overall uh reduces their their total spend on the solution so that's what we call cbp private cloud great thanks for that i mean wow we've seen really the evolution from the the wild west days of you know the early days of so-called big data ungoverned a lot of shadow data science uh maybe maybe not as efficient as as we'd like and but certainly today taking advantage of some of those capabilities dealing with the noisy neighbor problem enough i wonder if you could comment another question that i have is you know one of the things that jim whitehurst talked about when ibm acquired red hat was the scale that ibm could bring and what i always looked at in that context was ibm's deep expertise in vertical industries so i wonder what are some of the key industry verticals that you guys are targeting and succeeding in i mean yes there's the pandemic has some effects we talked about hospitality obviously airlines have to have to be careful and conserving cash but what are some of the interesting uh tailwinds that you're seeing by industry and some of the the more interesting and popular use cases yeah that's a very good question now in terms of the industry vertical so we are seeing the traction in like a number of verticals right and the top ones being the financial services like healthcare telco the automotive industry as well as the federal government are some of the key ones right and at the end of the day what what all the customers are looking at doing is be able to improve the experience of their customers with the digital services that they roll out right as part of the pandemic and so on as well and then being able to gain competitive edge right if you can have the services in your platform and make them kind of fresh and relevant and be able to update them on a regular basis that's kind of that's your differentiator these days right and then the next one is yeah if you do all this so you should be able to increase your revenue be able to save cost as well that's kind of a key one that you mentioned right that that a lot of the industries like the hospitality the airlines and so on are kind of working on saving cash right so if you can help them save the cost that's kind of key and then the last one is is being able to automate the business processes right because there's not like a lot of the manual processes so yeah if you can add in like a lot of automation that's all uh good for your business and then now if you look at the individual use cases in these different industry verticals what we're seeing that the use cases cannot vary from the industry to industry like if you look at the financial services the use cases like fraud detection being able to do the risk analysis and compliance being able to improve the customer support and so on are some of the key use cases the cyber security is coming up a lot as well because uh yeah nobody wants to be hacked and so and and so on yeah especially like in these times right and then moving on to healthcare and the life sciences right what we're seeing the use cases on being able to do the data-driven diagnostics and care and being able to do the discovery of drugs being able to say track kobit 19 and be able to tell that okay uh which of my like hospital is going to be full when and what kind of ppe am i going to need at my uh the the sites and so on so that way i can yeah and mobilize like as needed are some of the key ones that we are seeing on the healthcare side uh and then in terms of the automotive industry right that's where being able to speed up the autonomous driving initiatives uh being able to do uh the auto warranty pricing based on the history of the drivers and so on and then being able to save on the insurance cost is a big one that we are seeing as well for the insurance industries and then but more like manufacturing right being able to do the quality assurance uh at the shop floor being able to do the predictive maintenance on machinery and also be able to do the robotics process automation so like lots of use cases that customers are prioritizing but it's very verticalized it kind of varies from the vertical to a vertical but at the end of the day yeah it's all about like improving the customer experience the revenue saving cost and and being able to automate the business processes yeah that's great thank you for that i mean we we heard a lot about automation we were covering ansible fest i mean just think about fraud how much you know fraud detection has changed in the last 10 years it used to be you know so slow you'd have to go go through your financial statements to find fraud and now it's instantaneous cyber security is critical because the adversaries are very capable healthcare is a space where you know it's ripe for change and now of course with the pandemic things are changing very rapidly automotive another one an industry that really hasn't hadn't seen much disruption and now you're seeing with a number of things autonomous vehicles and you know basically software on wheels and insurance great example even manufacturing you're seeing you know a real sea change there so thank you for that description you know very often in the cube we like to look at joint engineering solutions that's a gauge of the substance of a partnership you know sometimes you see these barney deals you know there's a press release i love you you love me okay see you but but so i wonder if you guys could talk about specific engineering that you're doing tom maybe you could start sure yeah so on the on the engineering and product side um we've um for cbp private cloud we've we've changed our uh internal development and testing to run all on uh openshift uh internally uh and as part of that we we have a direct line to red hat engineering to help us solve any issues that that uh we run into so in the initial release we start with support of openshift43 we're just wrapping up uh testing of and we'll begin with openshift46 very soon on another aspect of their partnership is on being able to update our images to account for any security vulnerabilities that are coming up so with the guidance and help from red hat we've been we've standardized our docker images on ubi or the universal based image and that allows us to automatically get many of these security fixes uh into our into our software um the last point that i mentioned here is that it's not just about providing kubernetes uh red hat helps us with the end to end uh solution so there is also the for example bringing a docker registry into the picture or providing a secure vault for storing uh all the secrets so all these uh all these pieces combined make up the uh a strong complete solution actually the last thing i'll mention is is a support aspect which is critical to our customers in this model our customers can bring support tickets to cluberra but as soon as we determine that it may be an issue that uh related to red hat or openshift where we can use their help we have that direct line of communication uh and automated systems in the back end to resolve those support tickets uh quickly for our customers so those are some of the examples of what we're doing on the technical side great thank you uh enough we're out of time but i wonder if we could just close here i mean when we look at our survey data with our data partner etr we see containers container orchestration container management generally and again kubernetes specifically is the the number one area of investment for companies that has the most momentum in terms of where they're putting their efforts it's it's it's right up there and even ahead of ai and machine learning and even ahead of cloud which is obviously larger maybe more mature but i wonder if you can add anything and bring us home with this segment yeah absolutely and i think uh so uh one thing i want to add is like in terms of the engineering level right we also have like between cloudera and red hat the partnership and the sales and the go to market levels as well because once you build the uh the integration it yeah it has to be built out in the customer environments as well right so that's where we have the alignment um at the marketing level as well as the sales level so that way we can like jointly go in and do the customer workshops and make sure the solutions are getting deployed the right way right uh and also we have a partnership at the professional services level as well right where um the experts from both the orgs are kind of hand in hand to help the customers right and then at the end of the day if you need help with support and that's what tom talked about that we have the experts on the support side as well yeah and then so to wrap things up right uh so all the industry research and the customer conversation that we are having are kind of indicating that the organizations are actually increasing the focus on digital uh transformation with the data and ai being a key part of it and that's where this strategic partnership between cloudera and and red hat is going to play a big role to help our mutual customers uh through that our transition and be able to achieve the key goals that they set for their business great well guys thanks so much for taking us through the partnership and the integration work that you guys are doing with customers a great discussion really appreciate your time yeah thanks a lot dave really appreciate it really enjoyed the conversation all right keep it right there everybody you're watching thecube's coverage of cubecon plus cloud nativecon north america the virtual edition keep it right there we'll be right back

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kubecon and cloud nativecon North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by Red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE, >> Coverage of Kubecon cloud nativecon 2020. It's virtual this year, though, theCUBE is virtual. This is theCUBE virtual I'm John Furrier your host. This is the segment where we kind of pre tease out the show for this year. We do a CUBE review and analyze and talk about some of the things we're expecting trends in the marketplace. And I'm pleased to announce a new CUBE co-host with me, Ali Amagasu, who's been part of theCUBE community since 2013, going back to the OpenStack days, which is now different name, but it's private clouds making a come back. But she's part of the cloud community, the cloud Harati, as we say, Ali, welcome to being a CUBE host. >> Thank you so much, John. It's a pleasure, it's been a while since we've hung out, but I do remember pestering you back in those days, and I've certainly stayed with theCUBE ever since then. I mean, you guys are an institution to put it. >> It's been so much fun, I have to say I had less gray hair. I didn't have glasses, I wear contacts. Now I have progressive vision, so I can't wear the contacts. They're hard for me, but it's been such a great evolution. And one of the things that's been really important to our mission has been to be kind of like an upstream project to be kind of open and be part of the community to be on the ground floor. We can't be there this year 'cause of the pandemic, but it's been great and about a few years ago, Stu Miniman and I were seeing that we had a great community of people who wanted a co-host, and we got a great community host model. And thanks for coming on and being part of this mission, it's been important to our mission. We've got Lisa Martin, Rebecca Knight, John Troyer, Keith Townson, Justin Warren, Corey Quinn, to name a few. So welcome to the crew, thanks for coming on. >> Sure I'm happy to step in. >> So I want to go back in time. I mean, when we first met in 2013, you were a part of Metacloud, which got acquired by Cisco at that time, OpenStack was hot, OpenStack was at the cloud. And if you think about where Amazon was at that point and time, it was really the beginning of that sea change of rapid cloud scale, public cloud, specifically OpenStack kind of settled in, and that's kind of making a nice foundation for private cloud right now. It's still out there, telco clouds. You're seeing that trend, but this is the sixth Kubecon we've been there at all of them. We were there at the founding president creation. What an interesting turn of events. The world is kind of spun in the direction of all the conversations we were having back in 2013, 14, 15, 16. Now fast forward Kubernetes is the hottest thing on the planet and cloud native is the construct for all these modern apps, so what's your take on it. What's your view on this? 'Cause you've been riding this wave. >> Well, I think it's interesting. You brought up OpenStack because I remember in those days, OpenStack was smoking hot. And I remember talking to some of the organizers from the foundation, what they said was we want OpenStack to be boring. We want it to be part of the background. We will know we've made it when it's boring. And we could argue that they're there now, right? They aren't what we're talking about as much, but they're still there, they're still doing their thing. They're still growing as far as I know. So that's happened and now Kubernetes is the incredible hotness and it's just exploded. And so it turned from, you know, just a few projects, to now, if you look at the list of projects that are in incubation list of projects that have graduated, it's pretty long, and it's an impressive set of capabilities, when you look. >> It's been really interesting, you know, Dan Collin who's, the Ben was the director of the CNCF. I remember talking to him early on. And when he came, when he joined, he was, he hustled hard. He was smart. And he had a vision to balance the growing ecosystem cause he's done successful startups. So he kind of kind of knows the rocket ship labor, but he basically brought that entrepreneurial startup mentality. And I saw him in China when I was there with Intel with Alibaba conference in the lobby of the hotel, I'm like, dad, what are you doing here? So the CNC, I was already thinking global. They build out the most impressive landscape of vendors to participate in cloud nativecon and Kubecon At the same time, they maintain that end user focused. If you look at Envoy, right, it came from Lyft. So you have this really nice balance. And you know, it was always people chirping and complaining about this, that, and the other thing on the vendor's side. But the end user focus has been such a strong hand for Kubecon and the CNCF. It's just been really impressive and they maintain that. And this is the key. >> And I think what's impressive is that they've evolved. They've continued, they haven't sat there and said, "We've got a couple of fantastic projects," right? They're bringing in new ones all the time. They're staying at the cutting edge. They're looking at serverless and making sure there's projects that are taking care of that. And so I think that's, what's keeping it relevant, is the fact that they're relentlessly evolving. >> Yeah, and we comment, I think two years ago, Stu and I were pontificating about, can they maintain it? And one of the things that we were predicting, I want to get your reaction to this is that as Kubernetes becomes more standard and you're starting to see the tipping point now where it's beyond just testing and deploying in some clusters, you're starting to see Kubernetes native and in part of everything, in part of the future as service meshes and wrap around it and other things, the commercialization, the success of the vendor side is starting to be there. You starting to see real viable companies be started. So do they become end-users or so? So the question was, can it maintain its open source vibe while you have all this commercialization going on? Because that's always the challenge in open source. How do you balance it? What's your reaction to that threat or maybe an opportunity? >> I don't think it's a threat. I think there will always be folks who want to do it themselves. They want to use the vanilla upstream, Kubernetes. They want to build it. They don't want any vendor interference. There's also a very other solid other camp that says, "No, no, we don't want to deal with the updates ourselves. We don't want to deal with the integration with networking and security and all those things." And the vendor takes care of that. So I really think it's just serving two different audiences that as far as I can tell are changing, they're not, I don't see one side growing and one side shrinking. I really see it staying same, pretty stable. And so it's serving both teams. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And this is what's great about evolution. And when you talk about the community gets about the people involved. And I was riffing with someone the other day and were like, "Hey, you know what makes CNCF different?" And we were saying that everyone kind of knows each other. So as you have, you know, the most popular thing at Kubecon is the hallway tracks, right? So hallway tracks are always popular. And just being in the hallways, we call it lobby con and the CUBES on the floor there. So there's a lot of hallway conversations as hallway tracks, there's lightening talks, there's always something exciting, but even though people might move around from company to company for project to project, everyone kind of knows each other. So I think that kind of gives this kind of self governance piece, some legs. >> It does, and you're bringing up something that's really relevant right now 'cause it's virtual this year, right? So we don't get to have those hallway conversations. We don't get to have those, you know, accidental, you know, connections that means so much. I think they did an amazing job, amazing with the European version of Kubecon and you know, they're doing the best they can, I think the attend, I heard the attendance was great. The sessions were incredible from an efficiency standpoint. If you're an attendee, you could hit so many more sessions from home. There was so much to learn, the content was fabulous. The one thing that's missing, and I don't know how they replicate it is that ability to connect with your colleagues in the hallway, the folks you haven't seen'cause they, they moved on, they went to a different company. Maybe they'd been to two or three companies since you saw them last and the one place, you know, you're going to see them is at Kubecon or some of the other conferences you attend. >> Yeah and talking to Priyanka. And some of the co-chairs one of the things that was interesting out of that last conference was you had the virtual theater, but the Slack channel was very engaging. So you had people leaning in on the dialogue and it's interesting. And this is where I want to ask you your thoughts on the top conversations as we prepare. And we start doing the remote interviews, with the leaders of the CNCF, as well as the top end users, as well as vendors and companies, people want to know what's the top conversation that's happening and what are we looking for? So I want to ask you, what are you looking for, Ali? What are the things that you're trying to squint through? What smoke signals you're looking for? What's the trends that you're trying to tease out a coupon this year? >> I'm going to be really interested. You know, I already mentioned it once, but I'm going to be interested to hear how the new serverless projects are going. I know there are a couple in incubation that sounds really interesting. Priyanka brought them up when I've spoken with her. And so I'd love to see if those are getting so traction. What does the momentum around those look like? Is there as much excitement service meshes there was last year. I know there was a lot of discussion about what was happening with search. Most people were really excited. So I want to know what's happening with that. I want to know how new users to the community are dealing with the proliferation of projects. You know, how are they finding out ways to get involved? How are we nurturing new members to the CNCF community and making sure that they aren't overwhelmed, that they find their niche and they're able to contribute to become users, to do whatever their role is meant to be. I think those are the interesting things to me. How about you? >> That's a good question. I mean, I've, there's so many things. I mean, I look at the first of all, the open source projects are phenomenal. And again, talking about the people, I love to see the things that are maturing and getting promoted and what's kind of in sandbox, but I look at the, some of the ecosystem landscape maps with the vendors. And if you look at Amazon, Cisco and the HPE, IBM cloud, red hat, VMware to name a few, and you've got some other companies like Convolt for instance, which is pivoting to a cloud service, Microsoft Palo Alto networks for security Rancho was acquired., you know, a lot of companies are, I think at capital one out there, always in great end. You always great stuff. You got interesting and in Docker, for example, cup Docker containers, we did Docker con this year and I was blown away by the demand, the interest and just the openness of DAPA as they re-pivoted back to their roots. But I'm interested to see how the big cloud vendors are going to play because Google has always been an impressive and dominant partner in KubeCon, Amazon then joined, Azure is in there as well. So you've got those three, the big three in there. So the question is, okay, as this ecosystem is growing, I'm trying to tease out what is this, everything as a service, because one of the things that's coming out on the customer side, if you work backwards from the customer, they're getting kind of the missions from the CEOs and the CIO or CSO saying, "Take everything as a service," which is kind of like, I call it the ivory tower kind of marching orders. And then it gets handed down to the cloud architects and the developers and they go, "What's that? How's that, how does it's kind of hard?" It's not easy, right? So the modern apps is one and then this, everything as a service business model is going to be based upon cloud native. So I think the cloud native, this is the year that cloud native is going to start showing some signs and some visibility into what the metrics are going to be for success around the key projects. And then who can deliver at scale, do everything is a service. So, you know, understanding what that means, what does Kubernetes enable? What are some of the new things? So to me, I'm trying to tease that out because I think that's the next big wave. Everything is a service. And then what that means technically, how do you achieve it? Because when you start rolling out, it's like, okay, what's next? >> Yeah, I wonder who are going to be the new super users that emerged from this, you know, who are going to be the companies that maybe didn't adopt early, they're getting in now and they start running with it and they do incredible new things with it. And the truth is going to your earlier point about whether or not commercializing that, you know, should it be an upstream thing where you're using it vanilla using, you know, pure Kubernetes or using a vendor version? The truth is when you start getting vendors involved and getting super users involved, and these big companies, they can throw 10, 20 people at projects as contributors. You know, I tend to think of open source as being a bunch of small companies, but the truth is it's a lot harder for a small company to dedicate multiple head count to full-time contributions, right? Well big company, you could throw a couple dozen at them and not even blink. And so that's, it's critical to the survival truthfully of the community that we have, these big companies get in there and run with it. >> You know, I was talking to Constance and Steven Augustus, they're both co-chairs of the event and Steven brought up something. That's interesting because it's the theme that's kind of talked about, but no one likes to talk about it because it's kind of important and ugly at the same time. It's security and I think one of the things that I'm looking for this year, Ali is, you know, there's a buzz word out there has been kind of overused, but it's still kind of relevant and it's called shift left. So shift left means how do you build security into the CICB pipeline? So developers don't have to come back and do stuff, right? So it's like baking security in. This is going to be kind of a nuance point because of course everyone wants security, but that's not what application developers think about every day, right? It's like, they're not like security people, right? So, but they got to have security. So I think whoever can crack the code on making security brain dead easy will be great. And how that works together with across multiple vendors. So to me, that's something that I want to understand more. I don't yet have a formed opinion on it, but certainly we're hearing "Shift left" a lot. >> Yes I agree 100% at first we had developers and operators. Then we had devOps. Now I hear sec devOps all the time. You know, that I started hearing that last year and now these poor developers, you know, suddenly they are, whether they want to be, or not, to some degree, they are responsible for their company security, because if they aren't integrating best practices into their code, then they are introducing vulnerabilities. And so it it's just fallen upon them, whether they signed up for it or not, it's fallen upon them. And it'll be real interesting to see how that plays out. >> Well, one of the things I'd love to do is get me, you John, Troy, Keith Townsend, Justin Warren, and certainly Corey Quinn on a podcast or CUBE interview because man, we would have some war stories and have some real good stories to tell the evolution of what's real. And what's not real. Certainly Cory queen allows to talk about kind of like squinting through the hype and calling out kind of what's real, but this is kind of really kind of what's going on with coop comes a lot of exciting things. So I have to ask you over the years within CNCF and cloud nativecon and Kubecon, what are some of your favorite memories or moments that you can share could be personal, could be professional, could be code, could be accompany. What's some of the things that you can share about some, some happy moments for Kubecon >> Sure, sure, I'd say for me, some of the best moments have been the recent pivot toward trying to take care of the attendees. You know, I don't remember if it was San Diego. I think it was San Diego where they brought in all the puppies or mental wellness. And there was a meditation room. I don't know if you went in there, but it was quiet. And there was just some very soft lighting and some quiet music. And I didn't know how much traction that was going to get amongst attendees, that room was packed every time I went in there, dead quiet people relaxing, the puppies were bananas. People were just hoarding around the puppies and wanting to pet them. And I just really liked the way that they had really thought of a bunch of different angles to try to make sure that people who have left their families, they've come to a different place. They're, they're, they're under stress. 'Cause they're probably traveling with their boss and a bunch of their colleagues and they're stressed. And so to make sure that they had a break, I thought that was really somewhere where KubeCon was ahead of a lot of the other conferences I see. And it wasn't a single approach. It wasn't, we're going to throw a bunch of dogs in the hallway. It was, we're going to do that. We're going to have a therapist do a session. We're going to have puzzles in a quiet area at the hallway. It really went all in. And so for me, that was one of my favorite things from recent years. I thought that was fantastic. How about you? >> It's been fun. I mean, it's just so many moments. I mean, I love the European show. We did one year when I first, first time they had rolled out in Europe and I thought that was just so small and intimate. Of course the big mega shows have been great with activity. I think, but one of my favorite moments was I was wandering in the lobby. This was in Europe. It was, and it was a huge EU event, I think 2018 might've been, and I'm kind of buzzing around the lobby and I had nothing to do that night. And it was like five to 11 different parties to go to. People have, you know, dinners. And I ran into one of the CNCF co-hosts and also she's a Google engineer and I'm like, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" I'm like, she's like, "Oh, we're going to the women's happy hour." And I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." I'm like, "It sounds good." And she invited me and I went with her and I was the only guy there, okay. >> Oh lucky you. >> And I looked around and it was packed. And I said to myself, this is freaking amazing. And it was great women, great leaders, smart, super awesome. And they were all welcomed me. I wasn't like being stared at either, by the way. So I'm like, okay, there was no line for the men's room either by the way, just to, you know, and I was like, good tweet there. But I felt really welcomed. And I thought that was very cool. It was packed. And I went back until it's too much. Do you can't believe it was just really awesome. I was in this awesome happy hour. And I remember saying to myself, "This community is inclusive, they're awesome. And it was just one of just a great moment. >> It's great you've got to be the other side of that, right? Because as a woman, I am always on the standard side of it, which has guys everywhere, there's very few women, but here's the thing I have never felt intimidated or uncomfortable in any way at a Kubecon I've always felt welcomed, I've had fabulous interactions. I've met people from around the world. And I try to explain to my kids actually, when we talk and they they'll say something sometime not xenophobic, maybe that's an overstatement, but they're little kids. They don't have a great understanding of the world. And I'll say, "Wait till you grow up and you go to one of these conferences, you'll realize that people from countries that even fear that some of them there's some of the kindest, nicest, most polite people I have ever met. And you walk away really feeling like you want to just throw your arms around everyone, that's been my experience anyway. S0 maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had that intimidation factor at all. >> You got it, you've got a great mindset and your kids are lucky. And I feel like for me, the moment was the community is very open and inclusive. And I think theCUBE when we interview people, we want people who are smart, you know, and we interview a lot of great women and at KubeCon, it's been fantastic, so that's the highlight. And of course the grueling hours, and then, you know, people like to drink beer in this community. And I like beer, although I'd been trimming down a little bit because, you know, IPA's have been kind of getting heavy on me, but good beer drinkers. They like to have fun and they also work hard and it's a great community, so. >> And now you have to bring your own beer. Now that it's virtual, you have to keep your own IPA. >> Well, the joke was virtual is that we can have a better lunch at home. 'Cause that's always kind of like the event thing. But I think virtuals, I miss the face to face, but we get to talk to more people with remote and they get more traffic on the site, but hopefully when it comes back, it'll be hybrid and we'll still be kind of doing more remote, but more face-to-face. >> So well, and it's more affordable. I did not look at what the pricing is this time, but I know for the European version, the pricing was very fair, certainly more affordable than going in real life. And, you know, for some folks who really can't swing that travel costs and the registration fee, it's a great opportunity to get in on the cheap and suck up a lot of knowledge really quickly. >> Well, Ali, thank you for riffing on Kubecon preview. Thank you very much. And looking forward to hosting with you and thanks for co-hosting on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, John. I enjoyed it. >> Thank you, okay you're watching theCUBE virtual. This is a Kubecon preview. I'm here with Ali. I'm a goo who's our new CUBE host helping out on the Kubecon looking forward to more interviews, this is the CUBE I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) [Reporter] - Live from San Diego, California it's theCUBE covering Goodcloud and Cloud- Native cloud. Brought to you by Red Hat the Cloud-Native computing foundation. and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're here at Kubecon Cloud-Native con 2019 in San Diego, I'm Stu Miniman. We've got over 12,000 in attendance here and we have a three guest lineup of Kubecon veterans here. To my right is Loris Degioanni who's the CTO and founder of Sysdig. To his right, representing the Tiger is Amit Gupta who's vice president of business development and Product Management at Tigera, and also Knox Anderson who's Director of Product Management. We know from the Octopus, Amit, that also means that he's with Sysdig. So gentlemen, thank you all for joining. [Loris]- Octopus and Tiger >> Octopus and Tiger, bringing it all together on the tube. We have a menagerie as it were. So Loris, let's start as they said, you know all veterans, you've been here, you've almost been to every single one, something about a you know, a child being born made you miss one. [Loris] - The very first one. >> So, why don't you bring us in kind of what's so important about this ecosystem, why it's growing so fast and Sysdig's relationship with the community? >> Yeah, I mean, you can just look around, right? Kubecon is growing year after year, it's becoming bigger and bigger and this just a reflection of the community getting bigger and bigger every year, right? It's really looks like we are, you know, here with this community creating the next step, you know? For computing, for cloud computing, and really, you know, Kubernetes is becoming the operating system powering, you know, the cloud and the old CNC ecosystem around it is really becoming, essentially the ecosystem around it. And the beauty of it is it's completely open this time, right? For the first time in history. >> All right, so since you are the founder, I need to ask, give me the why? So we've been saying you know, we've been starting this program almost 10 years ago and the big challenge of our time is you know building software for distributed systems. Cloud's doing that, Edge is taking that even further. Bring us back to that moment of the birth of Sysdig and how that plays into all the open source and that growth you're talking about. >> Yeah, I mean, Sysdig was born, so first of all, a little bit of background of me. I've been working in open source and networking for my whole career. My previous company was the business behind washer, then it took on a live service, so, a huge open source community and working with enterprises all around the world, essentially to bring visibility over their neighbors. And then I started realizing the stack was changing radically, right? With the event of cloud computing. With the event of containers and Docker. With the event of Kubernetes. It, legacy ways of approaching the problem were just not working. Were not working the technical level because, you need to create something completely new for the new stack but they were also not working at the approach level. Every thing was proprietary. Every thing was in silos, right? So the approach now is much more, like inclusive and community first, and that's why I decided to start Sysdig. >> All right. so Amit, we know things are changing all the time. One thing that does not ever change is security is paramount. I really say, I go back 10 or 15 years you know, they've got a lot of lip service around security. Today, it's a board level discussion. Money, development, especially here in the Cloud-Native space it's really important so, talk about Tigera relationship with Sysdig and very much focused on the Kubernetes ecosystems. >> Absolutely. So I couldn't agree with you more, Stu. I mean, security is super critical and more so now as folks are deploying more and more mission critical applications on the Kubernetes based platform. So, Sysdig is a great partner for us. Tigera provides networking and network security aspects of that Kubernetes deployment. And if you think about it how modern applications are built today, you've taken a big large model and decomposed into hundreds of micro services so there's procedural cause that were happening inside the code and now API calls on the network so you've got a much bigger network with that service a highly distributed environment. So the traditional architectures where you manage the security typically with the firewall or a gateway, it's not sufficient. It's important, it's needed and that's really where, as people design their architecture, they have to think about how do you design security across that entire infrastructure in a distributed fashion or done in the early stages of your projects. >> Knox, help us understand the relationship here, how it fits into Sysdig's product with Tigera. >> Yeah, so we're great partners with Tigera. Tigera lives at the network security level. Sysdig's secure in that the product we built extends the instrumentation that Loris started off with our open source tool, to provide security across the entire container lifecycle. So at build time, making sure your images are properly configured, free of vulnerabilities at run time, looking at all the activity that's happening and then the big challenge in the Kubernetes space is around incident response and audit. So if something happens in that pod, Kubernetes is going to kill it before anyone can investigate and Sysdig helps you with those work flows. >> Maybe it would help, we all throw around those terms, Cloud-Native a lot and it's a term I've heard for a number of years. But the definition like cloud itself is one that you know matures over time and when we get there so, maybe if we focus in a little bit on Cloud-Native security. You know, what is it we're hearing from customers, what does it mean to really build Cloud-Native Security. What makes that different from the security we've been building in our data centers, in clouds for years? >> Well I thought Cloud-Native was just a buzzword. Does it actually mean something? (laughs) >> Well hopefully it's more than just a buzzword and that's what I'm hoping you could explain. >> Yeah, so again, the way I see it is the real change that you are witnessing is how software is being written. And we're touching a little bit on it at this point. Software intended to be architected as big monoliths now is being splayed into smaller components. And this is just a reflection of software development teams in a general way being much more efficient when you can essentially, break the problem into sub-problems and break the responsibilities into sub-responsibilities. This is perhaps something that is extremely beneficial especially in terms of productivity. But also, sort of revolutionizes the way you write software, you run software, you maintain software, CICD, you know continues development, continues integration, pipelines, the reliance on GIT and suppository to store everything. And this also means that, securing, monitoring, troubleshooting infrastructures becomes much different. And one of things we are seeing is legacy two's don't work anymore and the new approaches like Calico Networking or like Falco and runtime security or like Sysdig secure, for the lifecycle and security of containers are something bubbling up as alternatives to the old way of doing things. >> I would add to that I agree with you. I would add that if you're defining a Cloud-Native security the Cloud-Native means it's a distributed architecture. So your security architecture has got to be distributed as well, absolutely got a plan for that. And then to your point, you have to automate the security as part of the various aspects of your lifecycle. Security can not be an afterthought you have to design for that right from the beginning and then one last thing I would add is just like your applications are being deployed in an automated fashion your security has to be done in that fashion so, policy is good, infrastructure is good and the security is just baked in as part of that process. It's critical you design that way to get the best outcomes. >> Yeah, and I'd say the asset landscape has completely changed. Before you needed to surface finding against a host or an IP. Now you need to surface vulnerabilities and findings against clusters, name spaces, deployments, pods, services and that huge explosion of assets is making it much harder for teams to triage events, vulnerabilities and it's really changing the process in how the sock works. >> And I think that the landscape of the essence is changing also is reflected on the fact that the persona landscape is changing. So, the separation between attempts and operation people is becoming thinner and thinner and more and more security becomes a responsibility of the operation team, which is the team in charge of essentially owning the infrastructure and taking care of it, not only for the operational point of view but also from the security. >> Yeah, I think I've heard the point that you've made a many times. Security can't be a bolt on or an afterthought. It's really something fundamental, we talk about DevOps is, it needs to be just baked into the process, >> Yeah. >> It's, as I've heard chanted at some conferences, you know, security is everyone's responsibility, >> Correct. >> make sure you step up. We're talking a lot about open source here. There's a couple of projects you mentioned, Falco and Calico, you're partners with Red hat. I remember going to the Red Hat show years ago and they'd run these studies and be like, people are worried that open source and security couldn't go side by side, but no, no you could actually, you know open source is secure but taking the next step and talking about building security products with open source give us, where that stands today and how customers are you know embracing that? And how can it actually keep up with the ever expanding threat surfaces and attacks that are coming out? >> Yeah. First of all as we know open source is actually more secure and we're getting proof of that you know, pretty much on a daily basis including you know, the fact that tools like Kubernetes are regularly scrutinized by the security ecosystem and the vulnerabilities are found early on and disclosed. In particular, Sysdig is the original creator of Falco which is an open source, CNCF phased anomaly detection system that is based on collecting high granular data from a running Kubernetes environment. For example, through the capture of the system calls and understanding the activity of the containers and being able to alert about the anomalous behavior. For example, somebody being able to break into your container, extricating data or modifying binaries, or you know perpetrating an attack or stuff like that. We decided to go with an approach that is open source first because, first of all, of course, we believe into participating with the community and giving something as an inclusive player to the community. But also we believe that you really achieve better security by being integrated in the stack, right? It's very hard , for example, to have, I don't know, security in AWS that is deeply integrated with the cloud stack upon us, alright? Because this it's propietary. Why would Kubernetes solutions like Falco or even like Calico, we can really work with the rest of the community to have them really tightly coupled and so much more effective than we could do in the past. >> You know, I mean I would make one additional point to your question. It's not only that users are adopting open source security. It's actually very critical that security solutions are available as an open source, because, I mean, look around us here this is a community of open source people, they're building and distributing infrastructure platform from that is all open source so we're doing this service if we don't offer a good set of security tools to them, not an open source. So that's really our fundamental model that's why Calico provides two key problems networking and network security for our users, you deploy your clusters, your infrastructures, and you have all the bells and whistles you need to be able to run a highly secure, highly performing cluster in your environment and I believe that's very critical for this community. >> Yeah, and I'd say that and now with open source, prevention has moved into the platform. So, with network policy and things like Calico or in our 3.0 launch we incorporated the ability to automate tests and apply pod security policies. And those types of prevention mechanisms weren't available on your platforms before. >> Okay, I often find if you've got any customer examples, talk about, you know, how they're running this production kind of the key, when they use your solutions you know, the benefits that they're having? >> Yeah, I'll take a few examples. I mean, today it is probably fair to say Calico from the partial phone home data we get a 100,000 plus customers across the globe, some of the, I can't take the actual names of the customers but, so the largest banks are using Calico for their enterprise networking scenarios and essentially, the policies, the segmentation inside the clusters should be able to manage the security for those workloads inside their environments. So that's how I would say. >> Yeah, and Sysdig, we, have an open core base with Falco, and then we offer a commercial product called Sysdig secure, in particular, last week we release version 3.0 of our commercial product which is another interesting dynamic because if we can offer the open core essentially to the community but then offer additional features with our commercial product. And Falco is installed in many, many thousands extension of platforms. and Sysdig secure you know secures, and offers visibility to the biggest enterprises in the world. We have deployments that are at a huge scale with the biggest banks, insurance companies, media companies, and we tend to fall to cover the full life cycle of applications because as the application and as the software moves in the CICD pipeline so security needs to essentially accompany the application through the different stages. >> All right, well thank you all three of you for providing the update. Really appreciate you joining us in the program and have a great rest of the week >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back with more coverage here from Kubecon, Cloud-Nativecon. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering KubeCon Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, the Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain >> were here of the era, and seventy seven hundred people are here for the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon, twenty, nineteen, Off student. My co host for the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and joining Me are the two co chairs of this CNC event. Janet Cooper, who is also thie, suffer engineer with Google and having done the wrap up on stage in the keynote this morning, find Lyle's a senior staff engineer with BM where thank you both for joining us, >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start. We're celebrating five years of Kubernetes as damn calm laid out this morning. You know, of course, you know came from Google board in over a decade of experience there. So it just helps out the state for us. >> Um, so I started working on communities since before the 1.4 release and then steal a project Montana today. And I feel so proud to see, uh, the progress off this project and its has grown exponentially. And today we have already thirty one thousand contributors and expect it to grow even more if you can. >> All right. So, Brian, you work with some of the original people that helped create who Burnett ease because you came to be and where, by way of the FTO acquisition, seventy seven hundred people here we said it. So it's, you know, just about the size of us feel that we had in Seattle a few months ago Way Expect that San Diego is going to be massive when we get there in the fall. But you know, talk to us is the co chair, you know, What's it mean to, you know, put something like this together? >> Well, so as ah is a long time open source person and seeing you know, all these companies move around for, you know, decades. Now it's nice to be a part of something that I saw from the sidelines for so, so long. I'm actually... it's kind of surreal because I didn't do anything special to get here. I just did what I was doing. And you know, Jan and I just wound up here together, so it's a great feeling, and it's the best part about it is whenever I get off stage and I walked outside and I walked back. It's like a ten minute walk each way. So many people are like, Yeah, you really made my morning And that's that's super special. >> Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we're we're huge fans of open source in general and, you know, communities, especially here. So look, there was no, you know, you both have full time jobs, and you're giving your time to support this. So thank you for what you did. And, you know, we know it takes an army to put together in a community. Some of these people, we're Brian, you know, you got upstate talk about all the various project. There's so many pieces here. We've only have a few minutes. Any kind of major highlights You wanna pull from the keynote? >> So the biggest. Actually, I I've only highlight won the open census open. Tracing merge is great, because not only because it's going to make a better product, but he had two pretty good pieces of software. One from Google, actually, literally both from Google. Ultimately, But they realize that. Hey, we have the same goals. We have similar interfaces. And instead of going through this arms race, what they did is sable. This is what we'LL do. We'LL create a new project and will merge them. That is, you know, that is one of the best things about open source. You know, you want to see this in a lot of places, but people are mature enough to say, Hey, we're going to actually make something bigger and better for everyone. And that was my favorite update. >> Yeah, well, I tell you, and I'm doing my job well, because literally like during the keynote, I reached out to Ben. And Ben and Morgan are going to come on the program to talk about that merging later today. That was interested. >> I've often been accused of having that first language being snark, and I guess in that light, something that I'm not particularly clear on, and this is not the setup for a joke. But one announcement that was made on stage today was that Tiller is no longer included in the current version of Wasn't Helm. Yes, yes, And everyone clapped and applauded, and my immediate response was first off. Wow, if you were the person that wrote Tiller, that probably didn't feel so good given. Everyone was copping and happy about it. But it seems that that was big and transformative and revelatory for a lot of the audience. What is Tiller and why is it perceived as being less than awesome? >> All right, so I will give you a disclaimer, >> please. >> The disclaimer is I do not work on the helm project... Wonderful >> ...so anything that I say should be fact checked. >> Excellent. >> So Well, so here's the big deal. When Tiller, when Helm was introduced, they had this thing called Tiller. And what tiller did was it ran at a basically a cluster wide level to make sure that it could coordinate software being installed and Kubernetes named Spaces or groups how Kubernetes applications are distributed. So what happens is is that that was the best vector for security problems. Basically, you had this root level piece of software running, and people were figuring out ways to get around it. And it was a big security hole. What >> they've done Just a component. It's an attack platform. It >> was one hundred percent. I mean, I remember bit. Nami actually wrote a block post. You know, disclaimer of'em were just bought that bit na me. >> Yes, I insisted It's called Bitten, am I? But we'LL get to that >> another. This's a disclaimer, You know, There Now you know there now my co workers But they wrote they were with very good article about a year and a half ago about just all the attack vectors, but and then also gave us solution around that. Now you don't need that solution. What you get by default. Now something is much more secure. And that's the most important piece. And I think the community really loves Helm, and now they have helm with better defaults. >> So, Janet, a lot of people at the show you talk about, you know, tens of thousands of contributors to it. But that being said, there's still a lot of the world that is just getting started. Part of the key note. And I knew you wrote something running workloads and cover Netease talk a little bit about how we're helping you know, those that aren't yet, you know, on board with you getting into the community ship. >> So I work on the C gaps. So she grabs one of the sub fracture that own is the work wells AP Eyes. That's why I had that. What post? About running for closing covered alleys. So basically, you you're using coronaries clarity, baby eyes to run a different type of application, and we call it were close. So you have stay full state wears or jobs and demons and you have different guys to run those clothes in the communities. And then for those who are just getting started, maybe start with, uh, stay last were close. That's the easiest one. And then for people who are looking Teo, contribute war I. I encouraged you to start with maybe small fixes, maybe take some documents or do some small P R's and you're reputations from there and star from small contributions and then feel all the way up. >> Yeah, so you know, one of one of the things when I look out there, you know, it's a complex ecosystem now, and, you know, there's a lot of pieces in there, you know, you know, trend we see is a lot of customers looking for manage services. A lot of you know, you know, I need opinions to help get me through all of these various pieces. You know what? What do you say to those people? And they're coming in And there's that, you know, paradox of choice When they, you know, come, come looking. You know, all the options out there. >> So I would say, Start with something simple that works. And then you can always ask others for advice for what works, What doesn't work. And you can hear from their success stories or failure stories. And then I think I recently he saw Block post about Some people in the community is collecting a potential failure stories. There is also a talk about humanity's fellow, the stories. So maybe you can go there and learn from the old those mistakes and then how to build a better system from there. >> I'd love that. We have to celebrate those failures that we hopefully can learn from them. Find anything on that, You know, from your viewpoint. >> Eso Actually, it's something I research is developer experience for you. Bernetti. So my communities is this whole big ping. I look on top of it and I'm looking at the outside in howto developers interact with Burnett, ese. And what we're seeing is that there's lots of room for opportunities and Mohr tools outside of the main community space that will help people actually interact with it because that's not really communities. Developers responsibility, you know, so one anything that I think that we're doing now is we're looking and this is something that we're doing and be aware that I can talk about is that we're looking at a P ice we're looking at. We realize that client go, which is the way that you burnett ese talks with sapi eyes, and a lot of people are using out externally were looking at. But what does it actually mean for human to use this and a lot of my work is just really around. Well, that's cool for computers. Now, what if a human has to use it? So what we're finding is that no. And I'm going to talk about this in my keynote tomorrow. You know, we're on this journey, and Kubernetes is not the destination. Coover Netease is the vehicle that is getting us to the destination that we don't even know what it is. So there's lots of spaces that we can look around to improve Kubernetes without even touching Cooper Netease itself, because actually, it's pretty good and it's fairly stable in a lot of cases. But it's hard, and that's the best part. So that's, you know, lots of work for us, the salt >> from my perspective. One of the turning points in Kou Burnett is a success. Story was when it got beyond just Google. Well, folks working on it. For better or worse, Google has a certain step of coding standards, and then you bring it to the real world, where there are people who are, Let's be honest, like me, where my coding standard is. I should try to right some some days, and not everything winds up having the same constraints. Not everything has the same approach. To some extent, it really feels like a tipping point for all of it was when you wind up getting to a position where people are bringing their real world workload that don't look like anything, anyone would be able to write a googol and keep their job. But still having to work with this, there was a wound up being sort of blossoming effect really accelerating the project. Conversely, other large infrastructure projects we need not mention when they had that tipping point in getting more people involved, they sort of imploded on themselves. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts as to why you Burnett? He started thriving where other projects and failed trying to do the same things. >> I have something you go first. And >> I think the biggest thing about cybernetics is the really strong community and the ecosystem and also communities has the extensive bility for you to build on top of communities. We've seen people building from works, and then the platform is different platforms. Open source platforms on top of you. Burnett is so other people can use on other layers. Hyah. Layers off stacks on top of fraternities. Just use those open source. So, for example, we have the CRD. It's an A P I that allows you to feel your own customized, overnighted style FBI, so they're using some custom for couple databases. You could just create your own carbonated style FBI and call out your database or other stuffs, and then you can combine them into your own platform. And that's very powerful because everywhere. I can just use the same FBI, the Carbonari style idea to manage almost everything and that enables a Teo be able to, you know, on communities being adopted in different industry, such as I o t. A and Lord. >> So actually, this is perfect because the sleaze and so what I was going to say The secret of community is that we don't talk about actually job, Ada says. It's a lot, but it's a communities is a platform for creating platforms. So Kubernetes really is almost built on itself. You can extend Cooper. Netease like communities extends itself with the same semantics that it lets users extended. So Janet was talking about >> becoming the software that is eating the world. Yeah, it >> literally is. So Janet talked about the CRD sees custom resource definitions. It's the same. It's the same mechanism that Kubernetes uses to add new features. So whenever you're using these mechanisms, you're using Kou Burnett. He's basically the Cooper Nate's infrastructure to create. So really, what it is is that this is the tool kit for creating your solutions. What is why I say that Kubernetes is not an end point its its journey. >> So the cloud native system. >> So you know what? Yeah, and I like I like the limits analogy that people talk about. Like Coburn. Eighties is is like clinics. If you think about how Lennox you know little l. Lennox. Yeah. You know, I'm saying little l olynyk sub Let's put together. Yeah, you Burnett. He's like parts of communities would be system. And it's it's all these components come together the creature operating system, and that's the best part about it. >> Okay, so for me, the people that are not the seventy seven hundred that air here give them a little bit of, you know, walk around the show and some of the nooks and crannies that they might not know, like, you know, for myself having been to a number of these like Boy, there were so many half day and full day workshops yesterday there were, like, at least, like fifteen or seventeen or something like that that I saw, You know, obviously there's some of the big keynote. The Expo Hall is sprawling it, you know, I've been toe, you know, fifteen twenty thousand people show here This sex Bohol feels is bustling ahs that one is and well as tons of breakout session. So, you know, give us some of the things that people would have been missing if they didn't come to the show here. >> So just for the record, if you missed the show, you can still watch all the videos online. And then you can also watch the lifestream for keynotes so on. I personally love the applicant the different ways for a customizing covered at ease. So there's Ah, customizing overnight is track. And also there's the apple that applications track and I personally love that. And also I like the color case studies So you can't go to the case studies track to see on different users and users off Cooper, Natty shared. There were war stories, >> Yes, So I think that she will miss. There's a few things that you'll miss if you if you're not here in Barcelona right now, the first thing is that this convention center is huge. It's a ten minute walk from the door to where we're sitting right now, but more seriously, one. The things you'LL miss is that before the conference starts, there are there are a whole bunch of summits, Red had had a summit and fewer people had some. It's yesterday where they talk about things. There's the training sessions, which a lot of cases aren't recorded. And then another thing is that the special interest groups, the cigs. So Cooper ninety six, they all get together and they have faced the face discussions and then generally one from yesterday We're not. We're not recorded. So what you're missing is the people who actually make this big machine turn. They get together face to face and they first of all, they built from a rotary. But they get to discuss items that have require high bit of bandwith that you really can't do over again of issue or email, or even even a slack call like you can actually get this thing solved. And the best thing is watching these people. And then you watch the great ideas that in, you know, three, six months to a year become like, really big thing. So I bet yesterday, so something was discussed. Actually, I know of some things that we discussed yesterday that might fundamentally change how we deal with communities. So that's that is the value of being here and then the third thing is like when you come to a conference like this, where there's almost a thousand people, there's a lot of conversations that happened between, you know, the Expo Hall and the session rooms. And there's, um there's, you know, people are getting jobs here, People are finding new friends and people are learning. And before thing and I'll end with This is that I walk around looking for people who come in on the on the diversity scholarships, and I would not hear their stories if I did not come. So I met two people. I met a young lady from New Zealand who got the scholarship and flew here, you know, and super smart, but is in New Zealand and university, and I get to hear her insights with life. And then I get to share how you could be better in the same thing. I met a gentleman from Zimbabwe yesterday was going to school and take down, and what I hear is that there's so many smart people without opportunities, so if you're looking for opportunities, it's in these halls. There's a lot of people who have either money for you or they have re sources were really doesn't have a job or just you know what? Maybe there's someone you can call whenever you're stuck. So there is a lot of benefit to come into these. If you can get here, >> talent is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. So I think the diversity scholarship program is one of the most inspirational things I saw mentioned out of a number of inspirational things that >> I know. It's It's my favorite part of communities. You know, I am super lucky that I haven't employees that our employer that can afford to send me here. Then I'm also super lucky that I probably couldn't afford to send myself here if I wanted to. And I do as much as I can to get people >> here. Well, Brian and Janet thank you so much for all you did to put this and sharing it with our community here. I'Ll repeat something that I said in Seattle. Actually, there was a lot of cloud shows out there. But if you're looking for you know, that independent cloud show that you know, lives in this multi hybrid cloud, whatever you wanna call it world you know this is one of the best out there. And the people? Absolutely. If you don't come with networking opportunities, we had into it on earlier, and they talked about how you know, this is the kind of place you come and you find a few people that you could hire to train the hundreds of people inside on all of the latest cloud native pieces. >> Can I say one thing, please? Brian S O, this is This is significant and it's significant for Janet and I. We are in the United States. We are, you know, Janet is a minority and I am a minority. This is the largest open source conference in the world. Siri's This is the largest open source conference in Europe. When we do, when we do, it ended a year. Whenever we do San Diego, it'Ll be the largest open source conference in the world. And look who's running it. You know, my new co chair is also a minority. This is amazing. And I love that. It shows that people who look like us we can come up here and do these things because like you said, opportunity is is, you know, opportunities the hard thing. Talent is everywhere. It's all over the place. And I'm glad we had a chance to do this. >> All right. Well, Brian, Janet, thank you so much for all of that. And Cory and I will be back with more coverage after this brief break. Thank you for watching the cues.

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to see CUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018 live in San Francisco, California at Moscone West. I'm John Furrier, your cohost of theCUBE with John Troyer co-founder of Tech Reckoning advisory and community development firm. Our next two guests Mike Piech Vice President and General Manager of middleware at Red Hat and Mark Little, Vice President of Software Engineering for middleware at Red Hat. This is the stack wars right here. Guys thanks for coming back, good to see you guys again. >> Great to see you too. >> So we love Middleware because Dave Vellante and I and Stu always talk about like the real value is going to be created in abstraction layers. You're seeing examples of that all over the place but Kubernetes containers, multi-cloud conversations. Workload management and all these things are happening at these really cool abstraction layers. That's obviously you say global I say middleware but you know it's where the action is. So I got to ask you, super cool that you guys have been leading in there but the new stuff's happening. So let's just go review last year or was it this year? What's different this year, new things happening within the company? We see core OS' in there, you guys got OpenShift is humming along beautifully. What's new in the middleware group? >> There's a few things. I'll take one and then maybe Mike can think of another while I'm speaking but when we were here this time last year we were talking about functions as a service or server-less and we had a project of our own called Funktion with a K, between then and now the developer affinity around functions as a service has just grown. Lots of people are now using it and starting to use it in production. We did a review of what we were doing back then and looked around at other efforts that were in the market space and we decided actually we wanted to get involved with a large community of developers and try and move that in a direction that was pretty beneficial for everybody but clearly for ourselves. And we've decided, and we announced this publicly last year but we're now involved with a project called Apache OpenWhisk instead of Funktion. And OpenWhisk is a project that IBM originally kicked off. We got involved, it was tied very closely to cloud foundering so one of the first things that we've been doing is making it more Kubernetes native and allowing it to run on OpenShift. In fact we're making some announcements this week around our functions are service based on Apache OpenWhisk. But that's probably one of the bigger things that's changed in the last 12 months. >> I would just add to that that across the rest of the middleware portfolio which is as you know, a wide range of different technologies, different products, in our integration area we continue to push ahead with containerizing, putting the integration technologies in the containers, making it easier to basically connect the different components of applications and different applications to each other together through different integration paradigms whether it's messaging or more of a bus style. So with our Jboss Fuse and our AMQ we've made great progress in continuing to refine how those are invoked and consumed in the Openshift environment. Forthcoming very shortly, literally in the next week or two is our integration platform as a service based on the Fuse and AMQ technologies. In addition we've continued to charge ahead with our API management solution based on the technology we acquired from Threescale a couple of years ago. So that is coming along nicely, being very well adopted by our customers. Then further up the stack on the process automation front, so some of the business process management types of technologies we've continued to push ahead with containerizing and that was being higher up the stack and a little bit bigger a scale of technology was a little bit more complex in really setting it up for the containerized world but we've got our Process Automation 7.0 release coming out in the next few weeks. That includes some exciting new technology around case management, so really bringing all of those traditional middleware capabilities forward into the Cloud Native, containerized environment has been I would say the most significant focus of our efforts over the last year. >> Go ahead. >> Can you contextualize some of that a little bit for us? The OpenShift obviously a big topic of conversation here. You know the new thing that everyone's looking at and Kubernetes, but these service layers, these layers it takes to build an app still necessary, Jboss a piece of this stack is 17, 18 years old, right? So can you contextualize it a little bit for people thinking about okay we've got OpenStack on the bottom, we've got OpenShift, where does the middleware and the business process, how has that had to be modernized? And how are people, the Java developers, still fitting into the equation? >> Mark: So a lot of that contextualization can actually, if we go back about four or five years, we announced an initiative called Xpass which was to essentially take the rich middleware suite of products and capabilities we had, and decompose them into independently consumable services kind of like what you see when you look at AWS. They've got the simple queuing service, simple messaging service. We have those capabilities but in the past they were bundled together in an app server, so we worked to pull them apart and allow people to use them independently so if you wanted transactions, or you wanted security, you didn't have to consume the whole app server you actually had these as independent services, so that was Xpass. We've continued on that road for the past few years and a lot of those services are now available as part and parcel of OpenShift. To get to the developer side of things, then we put language veneers on top of those because we're a Java company, well at least middleware is, but there's a lot more than Java out there. There's a lot of people who like to use Pearl or PHP or JavaScript or Go, so we can provide language specific clients for them to interact. At the end of the day, your JavaScript developer who's using bulletproof, high performing messaging doesn't need to know that most of it is implemented in Java. It's just a complete opaque box to them in a way. >> John F: So this is a trend of microservices, this granularity concept of this decomposition, things that you guys are doing is to line up with what people want, work with services directly. >> Absolutely right, to give developers the entire spectrum of granularity. So they can basically architect at a granularity that's appropriate for the given part of their job they're working on it's not a one size fits all proposition. It's not like throw all the monoliths out and decompose every last workload into it's finest grain possible pieces. There's a time and a place for ultra-fine granularity and there's also a time and a place to group things together and with the way that we're providing our runtimes and the reference architectures and the general design paradigm that we're sort of curating and recommending for our customers, it really is all about, not just the right tool for the job but the right granularity for the job. >> It's really choice too, I mean people can choose and then based on their architecture they can manage it the way they want from a design standpoint. Alright I got to get your guys' opinion on something. Certainly we had a great week in Copenhagen last week, in Denmark, around CUBECon, Kubernetes conference, Cloud NativeCon, whatever it's called, they're called two things. There was a rallying cry around Kubernetes and really the community felt like that Linix moment or that TCPIP moment where people talk about standards but like when will we just do something? We got to get behind it and then differentiate and provide all kinds of coolness around it. Core defacto stand with Kubernetes is opening up all kinds of new creative license for developers, it's also bringing up an accelerated growth. Istio's right around the corner, Cubeflow have the cool stuff on how software's being built. >> Right. >> So very cool rallying cry. What is the rallying cry in middleware, in your world? Is there a similar impact going on and what is that? >> Yeah >> Because you guys are certainly affected by this, this is how software will be built. It's going to be orchestrated, composed, granularity options, all kinds of microservices, what's the rallying cry in the middleware? >> So I think the rallying cry, two years ago, at Summit we announced something called MicroProfile with IBM, with Tomitribe, another apps vendor, Piara and a few quite large Java user groups to try and do something innovative and microservices specific with Enterprise Java. It was incredibly successful but the big elephant in the room who wasn't involved in that was Oracle, who at the time was still controlling Java E and a lot of what we do is dependent on Java E, a lot of what other vendors who don't necessarily talk about it do is also dependent on Java E to one degree or another. Even Pivotal with Springboot requires a lot of core services like messaging and transactions that are defined in Java E. So two years further forward where we are today, we've been working with IBM and Oracle and others and we've actually moved, or in process of moving all of Java E away from the old process, away from a single vendor's control into the Eclipse Foundation and although that's going to take us a little while longer to do we've been on that path for about four or five months. The amount of buzz and interest in the community and from companies big and small who would never have got involved in Java E in the past is immense. We're seeing new people get involved with Eclipse Foundation, and new companies get involved with Eclipse Foundation on a daily basis so that they can get in there and start to innovate in Enterprise Java in a much more agile and interesting way than they could have done in the past. I think that's kind of our rallying call because like I said we're getting lots of vendors, Pivotal's involved, Fujitsu. >> John F: And the impact of this is going to be what? >> A lot more innovation, a lot quicker innovation and it's not going to be at the slow speed of standards it's going to be at the fast, upstream, open source innovative speed that we see in likes of Kubernetes. >> And Eclipse has got a good reputation as well. >> Yeah, the other significant thing here, in addition to the faster innovation is it's a way forward for all of that existing Java expertise, it's a way for some of the patterns and some of the knowledge that they have already to be applied in this new world of Cloud Native. So you're not throwing out all that and having to essentially retrain double digit millions of developers around the world. >> John F: It's instant developer actually and plus Java's a great language, it's the bulldozer of languages, it can move a lot, it does a lot of heavy lifting >> Yep. >> And there's a lot of developers out there. Okay, final question I know you guys got to go, thanks for spending the time on theCUBE, really appreciate certainly very relevant, middleware is key to the all the action. Lot of glue going on in that layers. What's going on at the show here for you guys? What's hot, what should people pay attention to? What should they look for? >> Mark: I'll give my take, what's hot is any talk to do with middleware >> (laughs) Biased. >> But kind of seriously we do have a lot of good stuff going on with messaging and Kafka. Kafka's really hot at the moment. We've just released our own project which is eventually going to become a product called Strimsy, integrated with OpenShift so it's coognative from the get-go, it's available now. We're integrating that with OpenWhisk, which we talked about earlier, and also with our own reactive async platform called Vertex, so there's a number of sessions on that and if I get a chance I'm hoping to say into one >> John F: So real quick though I mean streaming is important because you talk about granularity, people are going to start streaming services with service measures right around the corner, the notion of streaming asynchronously is going to be a huge deal >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Mark: And tapping into that stream at any point in time and then pulling the plug and then doing the work based on that. >> Also real quick, Kubernetes, obviously the momentum is phenomenal in Cloud Native but becoming a first class citizen in the enterprise, still some work to do. Thoughts on that real quick? Would you say Kubernetes's Native, is it coming faster? Will it ever be, certainly I think it will be but. >> I think this is the year of Kubernetes and of enterprise Kubernetes. >> Mike: I mean you just look at the phenomenal growth of OpenShift and that in a way speaks directly to this point >> Mike, what's hot, what's hot? What are you doing at the show, what should we look at? I'd add to, I certainly would echo the points Mark made and in addition to that I would take a look at any session here on API management. Again within middleware the three-scale technology we acquired is still going gangbusters, the customers are loving that, finding it extremely helpful as they start to navigate the complexity of doing essentially distributive computing using containers and microservices, getting more disciplined about API management is of huge relevance in that world, so that would be the next thing I'd add. >> Congratulations guys, finally the operating system called the Cloud is taking over the world. It's basically distributed computer all connected together, it sounds like >> All that stuff we learned in the eighties right (laughs) >> It's a systems world, the middleware is changing the game, modern software construction of Apple cases all being done in a new way, looking at orchestration, server lists, service meshes all happening in real time, guys congratulations on the all the work and Red Hats. Be keeping it in the open, Java E coming around the corner as well, it's theCUBE bringing it out in the open here in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier with John Troyer we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break