>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain in co con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend with my cohos on Rico senior. Etti senior it analyst at gig home. Exactly 7,500 people I'm told en Rico. What's the flavor of the show so far, >>It's a fantastic mood. I mean, I found a lot of people wanting to track talk about what they're doing with Kubernetes, sharing their, you know, stories, some word stories that meet tough. And you know, this is where you learn actually, because we had a lot of zoom calls, webinar and stuff, but it is when you talk a video, oh, I did it this way and it didn't work out very well. So, and, and you start a conversation like this that is really different from learning from zoom. When, you know, everybody talks about things that working well, they did it, right. No, it's here that you learn from other experiences. >>So we're talking to amazing people the whole week, talking about those experiences here on the queue, fresh on the queue for the first time, Chris Vos, senior software engineer at Microsoft Xbox, Chris, welcome to the queue. >>Thank you so much for having >>Me. So first off, give us a high level picture of the environment that you're running at Microsoft. >>Yeah. So, you know, we've got 20, well probably close to 30 clusters at this point around the globe, you know, 700 to a thousand pods per cluster, roughly. So about 22,000 pods total. So yeah, it's pretty pretty sizable footprint and yeah. So we've been running on Kubernetes since 2018 and well actually might be 2017, but anyways, so yeah, that, that's kind of our, our footprint. >>Yeah. So all of that, let's talk about the basics, which is security across multiple I'm assuming containers, work, microservices, et cetera. Why did you and the team settle on link or do >>Yeah, so previously we had our own kind of solution for managing TLS certs and things like that. And we found it to be pretty painful pretty quickly. And so we knew, you know, we wanted something that was a little bit more abstracted away from the developers and, and things like that that allowed us to move quickly. And so we began investigating, you know, solutions to that. And a few of our colleagues went to Cuban in San Diego in 2019 cloud native con as well. And basically they just, you know, sped it all up. And actually funny enough, my, my old manager was one of the people who was there and he went to the link D booth and they had a thing going that was like, Hey, get set up with MTLS in five minutes. And he was like, this is something we want to do, why not check this out? And he was able to do it. And so that, that put it on our radar. And so yeah, we investigated several others and Leer D just perfectly fit exactly what we needed. >>So, so in general, we are talking about, you know, security at scale. So how you manage security to scale and also flexibility, right. But you know, what is the you, this there, you told us about the five minutes to start using there, but you know, again, we are talking about word stories. We talk about, you know, all these. So what, what, what kind of challenges you found at the beginning when you start adopting this technology? >>So the biggest ones were around getting up and running with like a new service, especially in the beginning, right. We were, you know, adding a new service almost every day. It felt like. And so, you know, basically it took someone going through a whole bunch of different repos, getting approvals from everyone to get the SEARCHs minted, all that fun stuff, getting them put into the right environments and in the right clusters to make sure that, you know, everybody is talking appropriately. And just the amount of work that, that took alone was just a huge headache and a huge barrier to entry for us to, you know, quickly move up the number of services we have. So, >>So I'm, I'm trying to wrap my head around the scale of the challenge. When I think about certification or certificate management, I have to do it on a small scale and the, the, every now and again, when a certificate expires, it is just a troubleshooting pain. Yes. So as I think about that, it costs, it's not just certificates across 22,000 pods or it's certificates across 22,000 pods in multiple applications. How were you doing that before link D like, what was the, what and what were the pain points? Like? What happens when a certificate either fails or expired up not, not updated? >>So, I mean, to be completely honest, the biggest thing is we're just unable to make the calls, you know, out or, or in, based on yeah. What is failing basically. But, you know, we saw essentially an uptick in failures around a certain service and pretty quickly, I pretty quickly, we got used to the fact that it was like, oh, it's probably a cert expiration issue. And so we tried, you know, a few things in order to make that a little bit more automated and things like that, but we never came to a solution that like didn't require every engineer on the team to know essentially quite a bit about this, just to get into it, which was a huge issue. >>So talk about day two after you've deployed link D how did this alleviate software engineers and what was like the, the benefits of now having this automated way of managing >>Certs? So the biggest thing is like, there is no touch from developers, everyone on our team. Well, I mean, there are a lot of people who are familiar with security and certs and all of that stuff, but no one has to know it. Like it's not a requirement. Like for instance, I knew nothing about it when I joined the team. And even when I was setting up our newer clusters, I knew very little about it. And I was still able to really quickly set up blinker D, which was really nice. And, and it's been, you know, essentially we've been able to just kind of set it and not think about it too much. Obviously, you know, there are parts of it that you have to think about. We monitor it and all that fun stuff, but, but yeah, it's been pretty painless almost day one. It took a lot, a long time to trust it for developers. You know, anytime there was a failure, it's like, oh, could this be link or D you know, but after a while, like now we don't have that immediate assumption because people have built up that trust, but >>Also you have this massive infrastructure, I mean, 30 cluster. So I guess that it's quite different to manage a single cluster and 30. So what are the, you know, consideration that you have to do to install this software on, you know, 30 different cluster manage different, you know, versions probably etcetera, etcetera, et cetera. >>So, I mean, you know, the, the, as far as like, I guess, just to clarify, are you asking specifically with Linky or are you just asking in more in general? Well, >>I mean, you, you can take the, the question in the, in two ways, so, okay. Yeah. Yes. Link in particular, but the 30 cluster also quite interesting. >>Yeah. So, I mean, you know, more generally, you know, how we manage our clusters and things like that. We have, you know, a CLI tool that we use in order to like, change context very quickly and switch and communicate with whatever cluster we're trying to connect to and, you know, are we debugging or getting logs, whatever. And then, you know, with link D it's nice because again, you know, we, we, aren't having to worry about like, oh, how is this cert being inserted in the right node or, or not the right node, but in the right cluster or things like that. Whereas with link D we don't, we don't really have that concern when we spin up our, our clusters, essentially we get the root certificate and, and everything like that packaged up, passed along to link D on installation. And then essentially there's not much we have to do after that. >>So talk to me about your upcoming coming section here at Q con what's the, what's the high level talking points? Like what, what will attendees learn? >>Yeah. So it's, it's a journey. Those are the sorts of talks that I find useful. Having not been, you know, I, I'm not a deep Kubernetes expert from, you know, decades or whatever of experience, but I think >>Nobody is >>Also true. That's another story. That's a, that's, that's a job posting decades of requirements for >>Of course. Yeah. But so, you know, it, it's a journey it's really just like, Hey, what made us decide on a service mesh in the first place? What made us choose link D and then what are the ways in which, you know, we, we use link D so what are those, you know, we use some of the extra plugins and things like that. And then finally, a little bit about more, what we're gonna do in the future. >>Let's talk about not just necessarily the future as in two or three days from now, or two or three years from now. Well, the future after you immediately solve the, the low level problems with link D what were some of the, the surprises, because link D in service me in general has have side benefits. Do you experience any of those side benefits as well? >>Yeah, it's funny, you know, writing the, the blog post, you know, I hadn't really looked at a lot of the data in years on, you know, when we did our investigations and things like that. And we had seen that we like had very low latency and low CPU utilization and things like that. And looking at some of that, I found that we were actually saving time off of requests. And I couldn't really think of why that was, and I was talking with someone else and the biggest, unfortunately, all that data's gone now, like the source data. So I can't go back and verify this, but it, it makes sense, you know, there's the availability zone routing that linker D supports. And so I think that's actually doing it where, you know, essentially if a node is closer to another node, it's essentially, you know, routing to those ones. So when one service is talking to another service and maybe on they're on the same node, you know, it, it short circuits that, and allows us to gain some, some time there. It's not huge, but it adds up after, you know, 10, 20 calls down the line. Right. >>In general. So you are saying that it's smooth operations in, in ATS, very, you know, simplifying your life. >>And again, we didn't have to really do anything for that. It, it, it handled that for it was there. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, exactly. >>So we know one thing when I do it on my laptop, it works fine when I do it with across 22,000 pods, that's a different experience. What were some of the lessons learned coming out of KU con 2018 in San Diego was there? I wish I would've ran to the microphone folks, but what were some of the hard lessons learned scaling link D across the 22,000 nodes? >>So, you know, the, the first one, and this seems pretty obvious, but was just not something I knew about was the high availability mode of link D so obviously makes sense. You would want that in a, you know, a large scale environment. So like, that's one of the big lessons that like, we didn't ride away. No. Like one of the mistakes we made in, in one of our pre-production clusters was not turning that on. And we were kind of surprised. We were like, whoa, like all of these pods are spinning up, but they're having issues like actually getting injected and things like that. And we found, oh, okay. Yeah, you need to actually give it some, some more resources, but it's still very lightweight considering, you know, they have high availability mode, but it's just a few instances still. >>So from, even from a, you know, binary perspective and running link D how much overhead is it? >>That is a great question. So I don't remember off the top of my head, the numbers, but it's very lightweight. We, we evaluated a few different service missions and it was the lightest weight that we encountered at that point. >>And then from a resource perspective, is it a team of link D people? Is it a couple of people, like how >>To be completely honest for a long time, it was one person, Abraham who actually is the person who proposed this talk. He couldn't make it to Valencia, but he essentially did probably 95% of the work to get a into production. And then this was before we even had a team dedicated to our infrastructure. And so we have, now we have a team dedicated, we're all kind of Linky folks, if not Linky experts, we at least can troubleshoot basically. And things like that. So it's, I think a group of six people on our team, and then, you know, various people who've had experience with it >>On other teams, but I'm not dedicated just to that. >>I mean, >>No one is dedicated just to it. No, it's pretty like pretty light touch once it's, once it's up and running, it took a very long time for us to really understand it and, and to, you know, get like, not getting started, but like getting to where we really felt comfortable letting it go in production. But once it was there, like, it is very, very light touch. >>Well, I really appreciate you stopping by Chris. It's been an amazing conversation to hear how Microsoft is using a open source project. Exactly. At scale. It's just a few years ago, when you would've heard the concept of Microsoft and open source together and like, oh, that's just, you know, but >>They have changed a lot in the last few years now, there are huge contributors. And, you know, if you go to Azure, it's full of open source stuff, every >>So, yeah. Wow. The Cuban 2022, how the world has changed in so many ways from Licia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with a Rico senior, you're watching the, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>from around the >>globe. It's the >>cube with coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2021 >>virtual brought to >>you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Hello, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 Cloud Native Con 21 Virtual, I'm John Ferrier Host of the Cube. We're here with a great gas to break down one of the hottest trends going on in the industry and certainly around cloud native as this new modern architecture is evolving so fast. Richard Hartman, director of community at Griffon, a lab's involved with Prometheus as well um, expert and fun to have on and also is going to share a lot here. Richard, thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Thank you >>know, we were chatting before we came on camera about the human's ability to to handle all this new shift uh and the and the future of observe ability is what everyone has been talking about. But you know, some say the reserve abilities, just network management was just different, you know, scale Okay, I can buy that, but it's got a lot more than that. It involves data involves a new architecture, new levels of scale that cloud native has brought to the table that everyone is agreeing on. It scales their new capabilities, thus setting up new architectures, new expectations and new experiences are all happening. Take us through the future of observe ability. >>Mhm. Yes, so um 11 of the things which many people find when they onboard themselves onto the cloud native space is um you can scale along different and new axis, which you couldn't scale along before, uh which is great. Of course, it enables growth, it enables different operating models, it enables you to choose different or more modern engineering trade offs, like the underlying problems are still the same, but you just slice and dice your problems and compartmentalize your services differently. But the problem is um it becomes more spread out and the more classic tooling tends to be built for those more classic um setups and architectures as your architecture becomes more malleable and as you can can choose and pick how to grow it along with which access a lot more directly and you have to um that limits the ability of the humans actually operating that system to understand what is truly going on. Um Obviously everyone is is fully fully all in on A. I. M. L. And all those things. But one of the dirty secrets is you will keep needing domain specific experts who know what they're doing and what that thing should look like, what should be working hard to be working. But enable those people to actually to actually understand the current state of the system and compare this to the desired state of the system. Is highly nontrivial in particular, once you have not machine lifetimes of month or years which he had before, which came down to two sometimes hours and when you go to Microsoft to surveillance and such sometimes even into sub seconds. So a lot of this is about enabling this, this this higher volume of data, this higher scale of data, this higher cardinality of what what you actually attach as metadata on your data and then still be able to carry all this and makes sense of it at scale and at speed because if you just toss it into a data lake and do better analysis like half a day later no one cares about it anymore. It needs to be life it needs or at least the largest part of it needs to be life. You need to be able to alert right now if something is imminently customer facing. >>Well, that's awesome. I love totally agree this new observe ability horizontally scalable, more surface area, more axes, as you point out, changes the data equation on the automation plays a big role in mention machine learning and ai great, great grounds for that. I gotta ask you just well before we move on to the next topic around this is that the most people that come from the old world with the tooling and come from that old school vendor mentality or old soup architecture, old school architecture tend to kind of throw stones at the future and say, well the economics are all wrong and the performance metrics. So I want to ask you so I assume that we believe we do believe because assume that's going to happen. What is the economic picture? What's the impact that people are missing? When you look at the benefits of what this system is going to enable the impact? Specifically whether it's economics, productivity, efficient code, what are some of the things that maybe the VCS or other people in the naysayers side? Old school will, will throw stones at what's the, what's the big upside here? >>Mhm. So this will not be true for everyone and there will still be certain situations where it makes sense to choose different sets of of trade offs, but most everyone will be moving into the cloud for for convenience and speed reasons. And I'm deliberately not saying cost reasons. Um the reason being um usually or in the past you had simply different standard service delineations and all of the proserve, the consulting your hiring pool was all aligned with this old type of service delineation, which used to be a physical machine or a service or maybe even a service and you had a hot standby or something. If we, if we got like really a hugely respect from the same things still need to operate under laying what you do. But as we grow as an industry, more of more of this is commoditized and same as we commoditize service and storage network. We commoditized actually running off that machine and with service and such go even further. Um so it's not so much about about this fundamentally changing how it's built. It's just that a larger or a previously thing which was part of your value at and of what you did in your core is now just off the shelf infrastructure which you just by as much as you need again at certain scales and for certain specific use cases, this will not be true for the foreseeable future, but most everyone um will be moving there simply because where they actually add value and the people they can hire for and who are interested in that type of problem. I just mean that it's a lot more more sensical to to choose this different delineation but it's not cheaper >>and the commoditization and disintermediation is definitely happening, totally agree. And the complexity that's gonna be abstracted away with software is novell and it's also systematic. There's just it's new and there's some systems involved, so great insight there. I totally agree with you. The disruption is happening majority of almost all areas, so in all verticals and all industries, so so great point. I think this is where I think everyone's so excited and some people are paranoid actually frankly, but we cover that in depth on the Cuban other segments. But great point. We'll get back to what you're where you're spending your time right now. Um You're spending a lot of time on open metrics. What is that enabling take us through that? >>So um the super quick history of Prometheus, of course, we need that for open metrics. Promises was actually created in 2012. Um and the wire format which he used to in the exposition format, which he used to transport metrics into Prometheus is stable since 2014. Um But there is a large problem here. Um It carries the promise his name and a lot of competing projects and a lot of competing vendors of course there are vendors which compete with just the project. Um It's simply refused to to to take anything in which carried the promise his name. Of course, this doesn't align with their food um strategy, which they ran back then. So um together with scenes, the f we decided to just have a new different name for just that wire format for the underlying data model for everything which you need to make one complete exposition or a bunch of expositions towards towards permissions. So that's it at the corn, that's been ongoing since 2000 and 15 16 something. Um But there's also changes on the one hand, there is a super careful, a super super careful um Clean up and backwards compatible cleanup of a few things which the permit this exposition former serious here for didn't get right. But also we enable two features within this and as permitted chose open metrics as its official format. We also uplift committees and varying both heads. Obviously it's easier to get the synchronization. Um Ex employers stand out which is a completely new, at least outside of certain large search companies google. Um Who who used who use ex employers to do something different with with their traces. Um it was in 2017 when they told me that for them searching for traces didn't scale by labels. Uh and at that point I wanted to have both. I wanted to have traces and logs also with the same label set as permitting system. But when they tell you searching doesn't scale like they tell you you better listen. So uh the thing is this you have your index where you store all your data or your where you have the reference to enter your database and you have these label sets and they are super efficient and and quite powerful when compared to more traditional systems but they still carry a cost and that cost becomes non trivial at scale. So instead of storing the same labels for your metrics and your logs and your traces, the idea is to just store an I. D. For your trace which is super lightweight and it's literally just one idea. So your index is super tiny. Um And then you touch this information to your logs to your metrics and in the meantime also two year to year logs. Um So you know already that trace has certain properties because historically you have this needle estate problem. You have endless amounts of traces and you need to figure out what are the useful are they are the judicial and interesting aero state highlight and see some error occurring whatever if that information is already attached to your other signals. That's a lot easier. Of course. You see you're highlighting see bucket and you see a trace ID which is for that high latency bucket. So going into that trace, I already know it is a highlight and see trace for for a service which has a high latency, it has visited that labor. It was running this in that context, blah blah blah blah blah. Same for logs. There is an error. There is an exception, maybe a security breach, what have you and I can jump directly into a trace and I have all this mental context and the most expensive part is the humans. So enabling that human to not need to break mental uh train of thought to just jump directly from all the established state which they already have here in debugging just right into the trace, went back and just see why that thing behave that way. It's super powerful and it's also a lot cheaper to store this on the back and a four year traces which in our case internally we just run at 100% something. We do not throw data way, which means you don't have the super interesting thing. And by the way the trace just doesn't exist for us a good job. And that's the one thing to to from day one this intent to to marry those three pillars more closely. The other thing is by having a true lingua franca. It gave that concept of of of promises compatibility on the wire, its own name and it's its own distinct concept. And that is something which a lot of people simply attached to. So just by having that name, allow the completely different conversation over the last half decade or so and to close >>them close it >>up and to close that point because I come from the network, from the networking space and, and basically I T f r f C s are the currency within the networking space and how you force your vendors to support something, which is why I brought open metrics into the I. D. F. To to give it an official stamp of approval in Rfc number which is currently hopefully successful. Um So all of a sudden you can slip this into your tender and just tell your vendor, ex wife said okay, you need to support this. But I've seen all of a sudden by contract they're bound to to support communities native. So >>I support that Rfc yet or no, is that still coming? >>I, so at the last uh TF meeting, which was virtual, obviously I presented everything to the L. A W G. Um there was very good feedback. Um they want to adopt it as an informational uh I. D. Reason being it is most or it is a documentation of an already widely existed standard. So it gets different bits and pieces in the heather. Um Currently I'm waiting for a few rounds of feedback on specific wording how to make it more clear and such. Um looking >>good. It's looking good. >>Oh yes while presenting it. They actually told me that I have a conference with promises and performance. Well >>that's how you get things done in the old school internet. That's the way it was talking to Vince serving all of my friends and that generation we grew up, I mean I was telling a story on the clubhouse, just random that I grew up in the era. We used to pirate software used to deal software back in the old days. Pre open source. This is how things get done. So I gotta ask you the impact question. The, the deal with open metrics potentially could disrupt all those startups. So what, how does this impact all these stars because everyone is jockeying for land grabbing the observe ability space? Is that just because it's just too many people competing for one spot or do they all have differentiation? What happens to all those observe ability startups that got minted and funded? >>So I have, I think we have to split this into two answers, the first one open metrics and also Prometheus we're trying really hard to standardize what we're doing and to make this reusable as much as we possibly can um simply because premises itself does not have any any profit motivation or anything, it is just a project run by people. Um so we gain by, by users using our stuff and working in the way, which we think is a good way to operate. So anyone who just supports all those open standards, just on boards themselves onto a huge ecosystem of already installed base. And we're talking millions and millions and millions of installations, we don't have hard numbers, but the millions and millions I am certain of and thats installations, not users, so that's several orders of magnitude more. Um, so that that actually enables an ecosystem within which to move as to the second question. It is a super hot topic. So obviously that we see money starts coming in from all right. Um, I don't think that everyone will survive, but that is just how it usually is. There is a lot of of not very differentiated offerings, be the software, be they as a service, be their distributions? Well, you don't really see much much value and not not a lot of, not a lot of much anything in ways of innovation. So this is more about about making it easier to run or or taking that pain away, which obviously makes you open to attack by by all the hyper scale. Of course, they can just do this at a higher scale than you. Um, so unless you actually really in a way in that space and actually shape and lead in that space, at least to some extent, it will probably be relatively hard. That being said. >>Yeah, when you ride, when you ride the big waves like this, I mean, you you got to be on the right side of this. Uh, Pat Gelsinger's when he was that VM Where now is that intel told me on the cube one time. If you're not, you don't get it right on these waves, your driftwood, Right? So, so, you know, and we've seen this movie before, when you start to see the standards bodies like the I E T. F. Start to look at standards. You start to think there's a broader market opportunities, a need for some standards, which is good. It enables more value, right value creation, whether it's out in the open or if it's innovative from a commercialization standpoint, you know, these are good things and then you have everyone who's jockeying around from the land grab incomes, a standard momentum, you gotta be on the right side of these things. We know what we know it's gonna look like. If you're not on the right side of the standard, then your proprietary, >>precisely. >>And so that's the endgame. Okay, well, I really appreciate the impact. Final question. Um, as the world evolved post Covid as cloud Native goes mainstream, the enterprises in the cloud scale are demanding more things. Enterprises are are, you know, they want more stuff than just straight up in the cloud startups, for instance. So you start to see, you know, faster, more agility obviously, uh, with deploying modern apps, when you start getting into enterprise grade scale, you gotta start thinking, you know, this is an engineering and computer science discipline. Coming together, you've got to look at the architecture. What's your future vision of how the next gen programmable infrastructure looks like? >>You mean, as in actually manage those services or limited to observe ability to >>observe ability, role, observe ability. Just you're in the urine. The survivability speaks to the operating system of what's going on, distributed computing you're looking at, you gotta have a good observe ability if you want to deploy services. So, you know, as it evolves and this is not a fringe thing anymore. This is real deal. This observe abilities a key linchpin in the architecture. >>So, um, maybe to approach us from two sides. One of the things which, which, I mean I come from very much non cloud native background. One of the things which tends to be overlooked in cloud native is that not everything is green field. Matter of fact, legacy is the code word for makes actual money. Um, so a lot of brownfield installations, which still make money, which we keep making money and all of those existence, they will not go away anytime soon. And as soon as you go to actually industry trying to uplift themselves to industry that foreign, all those passwords you get a lot more complexity in, in just the availability of systems than just the cloud native scheme. So being able to to actually put all of those data types together and not just have you. Okay, nice. I have my micro service events fully instrumented and if anything happens on the layer below, I'm simply unable to make any any effort on debugging um things like for example, Prometheus course they are so widely adopted enable you to literally, and I did this myself um from the Diesel Genset of your data center over the network down to down to the office. If if someone is in there, if if if your station and your pager is is uh stepped in such to the database to the extra service which is facing your end customers, all of those use the same labels that use the same metadata to actually talk about this. So all of a sudden I can really drill down into my data, not only from you. Okay. I have my microservices, my database. Big deal. No, I can actually go down as deep in my infrastructure as my infrastructure is. And this is especially important for anyone who's from the more traditional enterprise because most of them will for the foreseeable future have tons and tons and tons of those installations and the ability to just marry all this data together no matter where it's coming from. Of course you have this lingual franklin, you have these widely adopted open standards. I think that is one of the main drivers in >>jail. I think you just nailed the hybrid and surprised use case, you know, operation at scale and integrating the systems. So great job Richard, thank you so much for coming on. Richard Hartman, Director of community Griffon A labs. I'm talking, observe ability here on the cube. I'm john for your host covering cube con 21 cognitive content. One virtual. Thanks for watching. Mhm Yeah. Mhm.

live from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone we are live here in Austin Texas for this the cube exclusive coverage of the cloud native con and cube con kubernetes con north america 2017 I'm John Fourier wrapping up the show of two days of live coverage it was dude Minutemen and Justin Warren analysts with the cube guys you guys are out in the hallways Justin you read all the sessions still we've been doing interviews great shows second year full year was a standalone show it was kind of you know a small show last year but really amazing size seven forty five hundred people or so a lot of logos diamond sponsors platinum sponsors gold sponsors silver sponsors startup sponsors media partners it's a freaking commercial party yet tons of developers tons of action so it's not so much a vendor show a lot of vendor interest in what is the a-list developers in this new way to program new way to build services from lyft donating massive to envoy code Google bringing in massive code a lot of contributions a lot of energy a lot of tech action let's wrap it up do yeah so John first of all you I I we had covered the show last year you had gone done it I seen the buzz around kubernetes so I had a certain expectation and actually it's a the show exceeded my expectation you know Dan conan told us we're gonna have over 4,000 people so that it wasn't the size of it but just the quality of the people and the interactions here you know we've been in other shows you know over the years with the cube where you've had you know those builders and you know smart people but wow you know you walk around here people that have done some of these things many time and as we were talking with a number of them it's you know there's some of this infrastructure and really trying to you know solve some of these things and make infrastructure boring that now we've been beating on for years as well as you know it's really helping the applications and I like it this really kind of bridges you know those environments because infrastructure has always known the reason we have infrastructure is to help the applications and for too long infrastructure has been this boat anchor and you know smart people who've been through you know lots of battles before and it feels a little different it feels like we were making some progress you know just and I were talking ahead of the show I remember when we wrapped up Amazon last week it's like serverless holds a lot of promise well server list does not eclipse all of the cloud native and kubernetes stuff here we're actually seeing some of the intersection I know I want to hear Justin's take on some of it but you know a lot of good things you know just in 20 or 50 sessions here they're all online by the way on their YouTube channel for the CN CF you had a chance to kind of walk with always go to some sessions what did you find most exciting what was the notable point the comment sessions here have been spectacular I agree with you the quality of the attendees from from from customers from people who are building the things from vendors it's it's really really high quality stuff the sessions are really technical it depends on which part of the ecosystem you want to dive into so there's not as much in entry level and high level stuff so people who were involved in this ecosystem know what they're doing so it'll be interesting to see how that changes over the next couple of years I expect that there's going to be a bit more intro level thing although boring is the new exciting so maybe there will be no need to do a lot of the intro stuff because it'll be abstracted away so there's a lot of projects that are about basically about making everything easy that is the goal that's what I'm hearing around the conference today and there's lots of there we saw in the keynote yesterday the idea of meta particle which is basically layering extra layers of abstraction on top of kubernetes we saw it again in the keynote with Chen today where they're trying to put different services on top of kubernetes so essentially kubernetes goes away and just becomes invisible it's like plumbing Clayton Coleman mentioned that from Red Hat making containers boring I agree boring is the new black that means boring is working that's foundational to me I think I'm excited by the fact that we're it's not a lot of land grabbing so to speak on it by the vendors it's very foundational tech and people are focused on don't screw it up let's we got a good thing going on it was goober Nettie's that's kind of the vibe I'm sensing and then the excitement of opportunity yeah there seems to be a lot of that anything jump out at you Justin on in terms of tech hallway conversations notable emerging projects that's your eye as catching up with you just before the show we we were talking about what are you looking forward to and for me two of the big things was service and storage like state management and I agree with you those are the two things that still aren't really solve I just came from the server that's working group just before coming on here and there are still a whole bunch of foundational questions about what service actually is is it function to the service is it more than that does s3 count as as something which is service because you don't actually care about which server you're hitting maybe that's service so there's still a lot of work to be done there about defining what that looks like and creating some standards around things standards is apparently a dirty word which I thought it was a bit strange that this whole idea of what standards a great isn't it it's great it's a standard which are which allows you to build other things on top of that I think we're going to see more and more of that that's what we've seen with kubernetes that's one of the the great benefits of having this standardized thing run by CN CF is everyone else can take that off the table as a as a competitive thing so we're not trying to outdo each other and be more kubernetes than anyone else instead people are building things on top of that so we're seeing storage providers like diamante we're seeing networking providers who are doing things with sto and we've works so that ecosystem is being deliberately created by taking some of that competitive pressure off the table okay that's a great point I want to bring that stool and get your thoughts because we interviewed Ben seek single men from lights light stats and he's super smart guy great conversation where things I asked him about his innovation around communities and he says look it you got a is building communities and having them run things is not as good as being forced to come together around standards you mentioned Ethernet a lot of the OSI model was formulated because if you didn't standardize there was no outcome for anybody yeah so there's that kind of going on with kubernetes where just has come together let's it should be a good word and it was done deliberately I was again talking with Jen that like community is is a kind of a buzzword of the cook of the conference there are specific things that have been done to build a community here it's not just about technology it's about the people and we've got things like the diversity scholarships that we saw on on the first day we're 103 people were were sponsored to come here and be on this conference yeah you know I come into something like that a little bit skeptical when you want to poke at things you know coming off of the Amazon show it's there are many people that are scared of Amazon this show everybody's actually really happy and they're like great it's no longer Hadrian made it made a comment to us he's like it's not the everybody about Amazon Club they're here and everybody's actually happy they're here now you know some of the things they're doing will still kind of play out over time but community it's real John did the amount of smart men and women that we talk to I agree with you blew my mind I mean and who we just had on you know you mentioned you know some of the other guests we've had on just super high quality you know just density you brought up a good point this is something that we hadn't talked about this could bring it up Amazon yes last week we're talking about the Amazon how they're winning everything else everyone's reacting to Amazon and this show is reacting to Amazon in a positive way because the culture here they're from the same tech religion if you want to call it a religion they're cloud native they buy the Amazon value proposition yeah so it's not like this is an anti-feminist on crowd if anything they're all going hey Thank You Amazon keep validating micro services I mean why would you it is very much a yes and it's like cloud great what else can we do let's do more of that let's let's layer things on top of this cloud thing and let's in fact go multiplayer let's put with cloud all the things yeah and the competition strategy is gonna be interesting by the families and what's what's great is that they're enabling stuff so to me we're gonna see where the value will be created obviously the software engineering piece it's going to be a big definition I think so the word software engineering now means something you look at all the tech here it's software engineering then the application developers our application developers they're not engineering plumping right so I mean so you're gonna start to see you know that kind of roll so this new ecosystem might emerge you guys reaction to that I mean John look kubernetes commoditized it's no longer you know there's not the orchestration Wars we talked about this coming in it was one of the things that surprised me is this Kelsey said on his keynote this one actually wasn't any really big surprises this community has a lot of transparency so if you're plugged in if you're talking to the people we understand the roadmap there's a lot of projects and nobody can keep up with all the changes but some of the base pieces we understand where that is the the service mesh piece you know huge participation people go into the sessions everybody's interest learning to it and there's so many pieces where people who contribute customers are getting value and it's still very very early days I I love the line they said it's like hey 4100 people here that's probably everyone running kubernetes right now with around the world so you know John I how BIG's this gonna get you know what do we say and I'd love to get just let's take us he was more in the hallways but just to kind of smell on the vibe here and kind of feeling it and read the tea leaves and if things if they smell brisk if the CNC F doesn't screw it up which I don't think they will cuz Dan's very confident they got a great team I do agree with Justin this is a community that was designed by the people first that have the right principles and and know what they want and then will allow detect the form so I think we might see an easier decision around standards if that all happens things like standards and whatnot to make it grow I think this could be a little mini reinvent going on here so I feel a lot like reinvents do our first time there where you know we got all the best guests because such a small community now it's so popular we got it they're all booked up and we're trying to grab guests I think this could be as big as reinvent in not as now but eventually this could be an industry event because if this all works out you're going to see two major audiences those software engineering plumbers and then on the application side that's going to be the business logic like they've been talking about and then that's going to create value ecosystem a third new constituency if that happens it's a services world and it's a you know twenty thousand person show yeah I can definitely see this growing into a big big show we don't have many industry independent shows anymore most of them are a particular vendors ecosystem this one is yeah that's like kubernetes came from Google but it's the CNC F is an independent body they're being very careful about which projects that they add in I was speaking with a lot of the members and of the of the founding board and they are being very careful to not make the same mistakes that's happened with OpenStack they've learned a lot of the lessons from OpenStack and and other communities as well so they're making some deliberate decisions based on experience and knowledge that they've gained from other places so that this will be sustainable and that it can grow into something really really big and I'll just add to your point there Dan Cohen said on the opening keynote they specifically designed it to be a technical event yes not a business event yes Stu that takes a question cube con with a-c-c ube could be the business of kubernetes get out there confuse your prediction for 2018 we're bringing our best coverage guys thanks for commentary last word thoughts this show sum it up wrap it up cube all the things yeah I mean just impressive John after you know this is our last big event of the year you know just so you know humbled to be able to be you know in this community meet some amazing people and you know share it with our audience you know that this community is something that comes out of this we do community with the K I guess for kubernetes yeah I think high quality okay purposeful high integrity and smart and I think that is formula that will play well love the diversity love all the action guys great great wrap-up Justin's do is the cube here wrapping up coop con cloud native con North America 2017 in Austin Texas thanks for watching of course visit Silk'n angle calm and youtube.com which I still contain go the cube net and we keep on comm and special shout out to Red Hat for all the great support appreciate it and continued success to Red Hat the cubes signing off from Austin Texas thanks for watching

>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's theCube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here. This is theCube's exclusive coverage, live in Austin, Texas for Cloud Native Con and KubeCon with The Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the founder. Silicon Angle Media, my cohost Stu Miniman, and next to us Joe Beda, who's the co-founder, co-founder and CTO of Heptio With Craig McLuckie, the famous startup that came out of the Google team, really one of the principal founders of Kubernetes with Craig and the team Brendon Burns and the like. Great to have you on theCube, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me, it's exciting. >> Good time, first time on theCube, glad to have you, we've been trying to get your perspective because obviously we're fans of the Kubernetes, I just had Lou Tucker on, we were talking interclouding and some orchestration opportunity. You guys had that vision and it's really important to tell the story, at the beginning with Kubernetes. You guys were sitting around, having a little beer, free food at the Google cafeteria, what was it like? What happened? How did it all come together? >> All right well, I started at Google probably 10, 12 years ago, did a whole bunch of stuff but eventually landed doing cloud. Craig and I started up a Google compute engine, VM as a service and the odd thing to recognize is that nobody who had been at Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff. Because Google had been on containers for so long, that was their mindset, Borg was the way that stuff was actually deployed, so my boss at the time, who's now in Cloud Era booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world would be like hey, that's really cool and his response was like, well now what? You're sitting at a prompt, that's not super interesting, how do I run my app? That's what everybody's been struggling with with Cloud, it's not how do I get a VM, how do I actually run my code? As Google got more and more serious about Cloud, every big company wants to dog food their products. How do we make the experience that folks inside of Google have, developers inside of Google have, match the experience that Cloud customers have? The choice there was either we make everybody inside of Google start using VM's which would have felt like that step backwards, or we teach the rest of the world about Borg. Now around the same time, docker started getting a lot of attention and we were like hey, those guys are onto something, they really found a good way to make this technology accessible to users on a single node level, but our experience at Google really taught us that that clusters you, how do you actually create this abstraction that a whole bunch of computers are one thing that you operate with? That was the thing that was going to be interesting and so out of that, we decided Kubernetes was going to be the thing or at least getting Borg out to the rest of the world, and we knew for it to be effective, it couldn't just be Google doing it alone, we had to do it in a way that would bring the rest of the industry with us. That's the motivation behind Kubernetes. It took us about another three months to convince all the folks at Google that this was a good idea, it was controversial, the open source projects at the time were things like, the biggest things would be like Chrome and Android. Those things were, the relationship with their community was very different from what we were aiming for with Kubernetes, they were much more consumer focused versus infrastructure focused. >> It was early too for Google to recognize the multi cloud world. >> I think some it wasn't so much multi cloud as much as developers have a really strong sense of where the lock in is, where the vendor lock in is, and we knew that if we wanted to win the hearts and minds of engineers and developers and folks that took this stuff seriously, as the underdog in the cloud world at the time, you had to really go out there and build something that was going to be widely applicable. Because you don't want to invest your time and energy into something that's super specialized to one cloud and I think the whole multi cloud thing, honestly I think it's engineers and developers and operations folks that had that sense from the get go, we were just reacting to that. >> Good instincts too. Kubernetes certainly working out today, state of the union, cause we're still only less than three years old as a community, seems like 20, but the momentum's been amazing, has been a lot of revision, a lot of people have their own versions of Kubernetes, yet there's a core, vanilla Kubernetes, but it's working. People have gotten around this. What is the big thing that has surprised you the most and where are you most excited right now, where Kubernetes is at? >> Okay surprise, there's 4100 people here at KubeCon, that's absolutely insane. I think we had this idea that it could be a thing and that, but I don't think that any of us imagined that within three years we'd be sitting here, doing this type of thing. That I think for me is the most surprising. It's a challenge to take these ideas that have been successful inside at Google and translate those to the rest of the world and it wasn't an easy or obvious thing, there were a lot of good ideas but figuring out how to get those out there, I think that really is due to the larger community. Folks like Clayton Pullman from Red Hat coming in early with a lot of that really brought a lot of that outside DNA necessary to bridge that gap. Surprising that we got here, but really it took the community to make that happen. In terms of what I'm most excited about right now, with the announcement of EKS from Amazon, it definitely feels like we're moving into a new phase of Kubernetes where folks are being much more focused on what do you do with Kubernetes versus how do you get Kubernetes running. Kelsey tweeted it the other day, but I think we've been saying for a while, Kubernetes at its heart is a platform for building platforms, really we viewed it from the start as a toolbox and I think we're only now starting to see, what other things are people going to be building with that toolbox and I think that's going to be that larger ecosystem, is going to be much larger than Kubernetes itself. >> Joe, coming into this show, there were so many announcements around Kubernetes, there's like 42 certified different versions out there. I think you could help explain a little bit because there's the big cloud guys, you mentioned Clayton who we had earlier from Red Hat, there's all these companies, oh well, Kubernetes is just like it's a piece and it's in there. Your company is around Kubernetes, so what does this mean that Kubernetes is, I guess we'd say commoditized across there, I think it's a good thing for the industry, but what does it mean, why is there a need for Heptio and what do you guys see as your role in the ecosystem? >> There's a bunch of folks that are really concentrating on how do I get Kubernetes up and running and that's one thing, and I think that landscape is going to be changing and evolving over time. We're definitely happy to help folks be successful with Kubernetes, it's one of those things we're going to do, we're going to do an open source project, services, support and training with that, but when we look forward, I think a big part of it is, how do we bridge the gap to integrate Kubernetes into businesses, how do we start building those next layer tools on top of it and to some degree, it's a wild west. There's those 42 companies, everybody's trying to actually find something that's going to be interesting, start solving problems, but the thing that's really encouraging to me is that Kubernetes is the base and we're doing work, both Heptio and the community around conformance to make sure that we actually have a solid base that folks can build on top of. Then everybody's focused on how can we actually capture the attention of developers, how can we actually deliver value there and so that's a really great dynamic, when everybody's like I want to do something really great that people are going to get a lot out of, only good things are going to come from that. >> Yeah and I liked, there was a concern some people had, oh last week AWS is now all in, they've got EKS, but you had an announcement about the Heptio authenticator open source authentication, a little bit of a partnership with AWS it looked like. Maybe explain, it sounds like one of the things you're building on top of this. >> Yeah exactly. Like everybody else, we had heard all the rumors, hey is Amazon going to do a Kubernetes offering or not. In our mind, there were two ways. >> Didn't they have to Joe? >> Well that's what I thought last year, but who knows, I think Amazon doesn't have to do anything but when we first started Kubernetes, we reached out to the folks at Amazon including Deepak and we're like hey, you guys are welcome, come join us here and they were like yeah, yeah, we'll join you when the customers are asking for it. Well it turns out the customers were asking for it, so here they are and I think it's a great thing. I think it could've gone two ways, they could have built in a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes that were only available through EKS that really made EKS a more integrated, better Kubernetes than running open source Kubernetes on top of Amazon, or they could've worked with the community, with upstream to try and make Kubernetes run great on Amazon, better on Amazon as is but then run even better when you're running it with EKS and they actually have the management on top of it. I think they decided to go that second route which is much more community friendly. A couple weeks before the announcement, they reached out to us, said hey, we noticed you had this project, it looks really interesting, we need a way to bridge IM to authenticate to Kubernetes and we like the approach that you're taking, can we work together to continue to develop this and that was the first signal to us that they wanted to really reach out and work with the community and so we're like hey, that sounds great, let's work together and get that stuff out there. It's still very early, I think EKS is GA next year, they set an aggressive goal for themselves, so I'm really looking forward to see where they take that and we're going to partner with them where it makes sense around things like authenticator. >> You mentioned we're going to a whole other level with Kubernetes and Amazon's announcement goes to the next level, you also mentioned you worked at Google Compute, Apple, all these other cool names with Google and you got Heptio, you're solving making interesting things happen with Kubernetes and you got a new class of developers coming in that have never heard of what a local director is. Infrastructure as code is happening, so you got the cloud game going on. I got to ask you, as Kubernetes starts to continue to take shape, a lot of people are trying to survive. In this technical architecture decisions, almost a tech chess game, which side of history will you be on thing going on and customers want more clarity. You have a lot of movement and customers want clarity. How do you see it continuing and what is the right path in your mind because it's looking good right now and commoditization as some say, I think is a good thing because value, there's value in interoperability, there's value in orchestration, there's value in a new class of web developer creating, solving problems with code, whether it's societal problems or other things, so there's a lot of big picture, wholistic things happening and Kubernetes kind of strikes at the heart of that. What's the right path in your mind, what's the vision you think Kubernetes should go into. >> Well I think first of all, I think change happens in the industry both fast and slow. It feels like it's been three years since Kubernetes, since we open sourced Kubernetes, and it's come a huge way since then. That happened really fast. You look at Enterprise, you look at Enterprise adoption cycles, I believe last I heard the mainframe division was a growing profit center for IBM. This stuff doesn't go away so as we see things like containers and Kubernetes and serverless and cloud, as we see these things come on the scene, it doesn't necessarily replace stuff, it augments and it adds over time so we see the mix of where people invest shift. In that way, things become established quickly, but old things go away slowly. I don't think it's going to be as quick of a shift as maybe it might seem at first. Now in terms of where the opportunities are moving forward and where we see this developing, the thing that's exciting for me is as we have, and this is something early on, talking with Brendon, he got super excited about, is as we provide new abstractions, as we provide a new toolbox, how do people start creating systems and applications that take advantage of that. I'll give you an example, distributed systems, pre-systems like Kubernetes were very difficult because not only did you have to do the thing that you wanted to do, you had to build all of this plumbing to actually get your things to talk to each other, the finds, the secure, all that stuff had to be created from scratch and those systems were rare and hard to manage and few and far between. Now with things like Kubernetes, there's a whole set of problems that you actually don't have to solve. The floor that you need, the floor is that much higher for building these systems so I think we're going to see a shift not just to cloud native, but I also think we're going to see a set of applications that are Kubernetes native. These are applications that assume that Kubernetes is the substrate that they're running on, and they take special advantage of it and I think we're going to see amazing thing happens when we really democratize the plumbing for building distributed systems. >> And that's the key, make that frictionless so if people want to go Kubernetes native, they're taking advantage, that's cool. I want to get to, to take that to the next level, as the world of IOT comes down, you can almost look at the world now as all IOT. There's no on prem and there's no cloud. If you believe this service mission unpluggable architectures, you could argue that a data center is a network point, it's an attached device to a myriad things, so you're going to need policy, the light bulb has a process in it, the wifi has wifis everywhere, so in a way, this is all going to be a grid if you will, it's going to be kind of a mesh. This is the right direction don't you think, the more services that come online, you just want to connect to them. That's the nirvana right? Are we smoking the peace pipe here too much? >> I think there's a bunch of trends that we're seeing happen there. I think with IOT, we see also a move towards edge computing, this idea of, we're going to see much more stuff happening in a more distributed manner. Whether that edge happens to be in your house or whether it's in a telecom cabinet or whether it's just mini data centers that are dropped in to parking lots here and there. That introduces a whole bunch of new problems in terms of how do you manage that stuff at scale. One of the things that I see is that we're seeing an interesting overlap between CDM providers and cloud providers, so you have cloud flare introducing their cloud workers, where you can start running actual code in their CDM nodes and that's the culmination of CDM providers over time fighting with each other to drive more and more customization. On the other hand, you have Amazon taking lambda, finding ways to actually use lambda and push that out to the edge, even into devices that are doing local machine learning. There's this overlap between these two different worlds. Then also, as we move stuff closer out to the clouds, the political situations that people deal with become that much more complex. As you start running compute in all these different countries, all of a sudden you can't necessarily go to one provider to actually deal with all of that. We're moving from this world where, when you're centered around data which is the traditional cloud, when you want to put it all in one big pile with compute around the edges, that's kind of like the traditional data center. Going with a few large providers makes a ton of sense. As we move towards a much more distributed world, it becomes a more distributed problem both in terms of how do you manage the compute, but how do you manage the relationships and how do you actually understand what's happening across all that and I think Kubernetes can be a part of that puzzle for sure, but it's not the end of the answer, there's still a lot of problems to be solved there. >> No but you get the first mile post. You can say hey, I can start orchestrating workloads and have endpoints that have services that talk to each other as the first step. >> Joe, one thing I wanted to ask you, what are the stumbling blocks? What do people need to look out for? Because most companies out there aren't Google. >> This morning at today's keynote and you can find it online, there's that cloud native road map that Dan was showing. That is an interesting thing that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it shows an enormous amount of innovation, it shows that we're seeing this explosion of interest in this world and it's really invigorating. That's from an entrepreneur's view and a technologist's view. If I'm a customer, that thing's kind of horrifying. I look at that and I say wow, I really have to understand all of this stuff to get ahead? I think the biggest stumbling block is really being able to make sense of all the noise out there. I think that noise is part and parcel of an active, innovative, chaotic ecosystem, but I think it's one of those things that makes it that much harder for enterprises and for more mainstream developers to adopt. Tim, we've been saying this for a while, for Kubernetes to be successful, we had to make it boring. That's Tim Hawkin, I think maybe was the first one to say that, but we not only had to make Kubernetes boring, we had to make that entire stack boring, we had to make cloud native boring. That's when it will have succeeded. I don't know what this conference will look like when cloud native is boring, but it'll probably be very different than. >> It'll certainly create some excitement, boring is reliable, boring is safe, boring is secure, boring is comfortable. Mark Zuckerberg once said move fast, break stuff, then he revised it to move fast and be 100% reliable. That's boring. >> Did he actually say that? >> I don't know, he shifted his narrative because that was the maverick early days when he started running at five nines it's like a whole nother ball game. >> Actually that matters. >> Joe, great to have you on theCube, thanks for sharing your awesome insight into the dynamics of the computing industry that's going cloud native, going KubeCon, and certainly Kubernetes that you helped put together with the team, it's certainly taken on a life of its own, last minute, take a minute to talk about Heptio, what you guys are working on, get the plug in. >> Yeah Heptio, we have services, support and training that we're offering to make customers successful with Kubernetes today and that's been invigorating, really getting out there and talking with folks, seeing the problems that they're hitting now versus where we want it to go. We're doing a bunch of work around open source projects, we have Heptio Arc which is a backup disaster recovery project open source, we have Sona Boy, which is a diagnostic project for running the conformance tests and it underpins the Kubernetes conformance effort. We have K Sonic which helps you configure applications and then we also have Contour, which is an ingress controller building on top of Envoy and other CNCF project and then into 2018, we're going to be offering more products and projects and services that really start targeting the special needs of larger and larger enterprises and that's where our focus is going to shift over time. >> You guys are certainly helping customers who are under pressure to add more services, including what Amazon's doing, more pronouncements, there are little announcements, some big some little, but still, the cadence of new things happening is fast at all times right now. >> I can't keep up either, nobody else can. >> We try. Two and a half hour keynote, it's ridiculous. Joe Beda here inside theCube, cofounder CTO of Heptio a hot startup, making Kubernetes interesting and exciting and reliable and boring. Not boring, we should say that. >> Oh boring's good. >> Infrastructure's good, it's theCube, bringing you all the live action from Austin, Texas, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, we'll be right back after this short break.

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundations and the cubes ecosystem partners well everyone welcome back to our exclusive coverage from the cube here in Austin Texas we're live on the floor at cloud native con and cube con cubic on like kubernetes gone not the cube con us but cute con we're Michele norelli who's the senior software engineer at Microsoft also the co-chair with Kelsey Heights our great event record-setting attendance I'm John ferry your host with stew minimun Michele welcome to the cube thank you so much for having me so people don't know about if they might have watch the street if you had a stream you're on stage keynoting and managing the whole program here congratulations more attendees here at this event than all the other cube cause of cloud native combined shows the growth and interest in a new way to develop new way to engage with other developers and create value yeah kubernetes has been the heart of it explain cloud native con and cube con what's the difference because I love cloud native but what's this Cooper Denny's thing I love that too yeah was it related a intertwine Wayne take him into his plane there's a there's a really big kubernetes audience and community and they need time to engage and just like work with each other and learn from each other and that's where coop Connie came from soku-kun with the original conference and the first one was a November in Seattle in 2016 and I was actually at that wine was a few hundred people and it was just so small people were actually asking like what is a pod what is kubernetes which are fine questions asked today as well but it was everyone was asking this question nobody was past that point and then you know kubernetes was donated to the CNCs and there were also these other cloud native projects that came about in the space and so we wanted a conference that encompasses both all of the cloud native projects as well as serbs the kubernetes community as well so that's where both of them came from some of the other cloud native projects have their own conferences like Prometheus has prom time and that's been growing as well I think the last one was 200 people up from 70 the last so I gotta ask you because we even cover us we were there at the cube con I was actually having drinks with Luke Tucker at JJ we're like hey we should do this Cuban Eddie's thing and bolted onto the Linux Foundation so you're president creates with the whole team it's been fun to watch Wow yeah but it's the tale of two stories in the community in the industry companies that got funded and we're building open-source and our participants who are building projects out and then a new onboarding of new developers coming into the community a lot of first-timers here you're seeing a visibility into the success of cloud yeah and they're Rieger engaged so you got a lot of folks who have invested into the community and new entrants a migration into the community yeah what does that dynamic mean to the CN CF how is that impacting how you structure in the programming and what are some of the insiders talking about what it is what's the reality yeah I think a lot of it has to do with you know this is a really positive community and there are just like so many people working together and collaborating not just because they I mean it looks like nice to be in a positive community right but you kind of have to like these problems are really hard and it's good to learn from different organizations that have like come across these projects or problems starting in the in the space before and they'll come and collaborate I think some of the things that we've been talking about inside the community is how to actually how to onboard people so the kubernetes community is starting up a new mentorship program to help people that are new to the community start learning how to review code and then PR code and and be productive members in the community and whatever they whatever area they want miss Michelle want to hear about kind of some of the breadth and depth of the community here yeah you know we went there's so many announcements there's a bunch of wando's yeah it's a brand new project I think what it was four projects a year ago and it's now 14 you know right how does somebody's supposed to get their arms around it should they be beat me about that you know where should somebody start you know what do you recommend yeah start with the that's a great question by the way I think that people should start with with a solution to a problem they already have so just know that people have run into these problems before and you should just go into the thing that you know about first and then if that leads you to a different problem and there's a solution that the CNCs you know has already come across then you can go into and dive into the other palms for example I am really interested in kubernetes and have been in that space but I think tracing is really interesting too and I want to start learning how to incorporate that into my workflow as well so show you you're also one of the diversity chairs yeah for the event you talk about kind of a diverse global nature of this community yeah we are spread across all time zone so I actually want to share an experience I have as a sake lead in kubernetes so at first I really wanted to serve all of the time zones and so we have these weekly sick meetings at 9:30 a.m. Pacific and I was like no maybe we should have like alternate meetings like alternate weekly meetings for other time zones but after talking to those the people in the other time sounds like they're very far off actually like China Asia Pacific I realize that they're actually more interested in reading notes and watching videos which is something I didn't actually know you know it's it's you think like oh you have to serve every community in the same way but what I've learned and face to face yeah base to base exactly and that's not actually how that's not how actually everybody wants to interact and so that's been an interesting thing I've learned from the diverse nature and this in the space let's see a challenges I mean we've been talking we're just that reinvent last week at Amazon obviously the number of services that they're rolling out is pretty strong there's a leader in the cloud but as multi cloud becomes the choice for most most enterprises and businesses the service requirements the baseline is got to be established seeing your community rolling out a lot of great new services but storage old storage is transferring to machine learning in AI and you got I Oh tea right around the corner new new kinds of applications yeah okay it's changing the game on the old card storage and security obviously two important areas you got to store the data data is that the card of the value proposition and then security security how are you guys dealing with that those challenges those political grounds that people are have a lot of making a lot of money in an old storage you mean ship a storage drive and here's an architecture those are being disrupted yeah I think they I mean they'll continue to be disrupted I think people are just going to bring in new and new more new and new use cases and then people will come and meet them meet those customers where they are and people just have to change I guess get used to it yeah shifter die yeah I think that some that that we are getting to that point but I can't only time will tell we'll see what are something exciting things that you see from the new developers I just recognize some friends here that I've haven't that dark wondering the community are new and they're kind of like licking their chops like wow what an excitement I could feel value and I could have a distribution I got a community and I can make money and then Dan said you know project products profits you put the product profit motive right on the table but he's clear at the same not pay to play it's okay to have profits if you have a good product for me project I buy that but the new developers like that because as an end scoreboard what are you guys doing with that new community what survived there around those kinds of opportunities you guys creating any programs for them or yeah I think just to just they can get involved you know I think knowledge is power perspective is power also so being involved helps give you a perspective to see where those gaps are and then come up with those services that are profitable or those tools that are profitable and I think this space can be very lucrative based on the number of people he sponsors I think he said he said the show was wondering if you can comment when you're building the schedule how do you balance you know all those platinum sponsors versus you know some of the you know practitioner companies that are also getting involved how do you there are there are different levels of sponsorship right like you mentioned the events team has a sponsorship section or sponsorship team and they handle most of placing sponsors and all of that and so they'll get whatever level they want but actually Kelsey and I do a lot of research and see like what's happening in the community what's interesting what's new and and we'll find time to highlight that as well which one is research what's your role in Microsoft share with the audience what are you working on what's your day-to-day job is it just foundation work are you doing coding what do you coding what's your fav is the VI MX what do you prefer yes my work is 30% community and 70% engineering I really love engineering but I also really love the community and just getting these opportunities to give back you know build skills as well learning how to speak in front of people as well these are both valuable skills to learn and it gives me an opportunity to just give back what I've learned so I appreciate those but I mostly work on developer tools that are open source that help people use containers and kubernetes a little more easily so I work on projects like Helms drafts and Brigade and these are just like things that we've seen the pain points that we've experienced and we want to kind of share our solutions with them so draft is the one I've been working on a lot have you heard of drops okay let me do the two second draft is a tool for application developers to build containerized apps without really understanding or having to understand all of what is kubernetes and containers so that's my favorite space to know you know one of the things we look at coming in here is there's that balance between there's complexity but there's flexibility you know I've heard Kelsey talking about our on when I talk to customer they're like oh I love kubernetes because I take vault and I take envoy and I take all these different things that put together and it does what I want but a lot of people are daunted and they say oh I want to I want to just go to Microsoft Azure and they'll take care of that so how do you look at that and what is the balance that we should be looking for as an industry yeah we've been emphasizing in the community a lot on plug ability across contracts it's like a theme that I think almost every project hurts and a word that you'll hear a lot I'm sure you already have heard a lot and I think that's because you can't meet everyone's needs so you build this modular component that does one thing very well and then you learn how to extend it and or you give people the ability to extend it and so that's really great for scaling a project I I do really appreciate the clouds coming out all of them with their own managed services because it's hard to operate and understand all of these things it's it takes a lot of depth in knowledge context and just prior experience and so I think that'll just make it a lot easier for people to onboard onto these technologies I was going to ask you I was going to ask so you brought up fug ability we saw you know Netflix on stage was his phenomenal of the culture yeah dynamic I think that the Schumer important conversation you know something we've been talking about silage is a real part of what we're seeing tech being a part of but the the things that popped out at me in the keynote were service mesh and pluggable architecture so I want to get your thoughts for the folks that aren't there is that in the trenches and inside the ropes what is a pluggable architecture and what is a service mesh these days because you got lyft and uber and all these great companies who have built hyper scale and large-scale systems in open source and now our big tech success stories donating these kinds of approaches pluggable architectures and service man talk a minute to explain so pluggable architectures this is why you have one layer of your stuff there's a piece of software that does something does one thing very well but you know every I like to say that every company is a snowflake and that's okay and so you may have some workflow or need that is specific to your company and so we shouldn't limit you to just what we think is the right solution to a problem we should allow you to extend or extend these pieces of software with modular components or just extensible components that that work for you does that make a little more sense yeah I work on helm and we also have a pluggable architecture because we were just getting so many requests from the community and it didn't make sense to put everything in the core code based if we did if we accepted one thing it would really just interrupt somebody else's workflow so that that's helped us a lot in in my personal experience I really like plug water it's actually that means you can go build a really kick butt app yeah nail it down to your specifications but decoupler from a core or avoiding kind the old spaghetti code mindset but kind of creating a model where it can be leveraged yeah plugin we all know plugins are but right so so that someone else could take advantage of it exactly yeah a service mesh that's evolved yeah heard a lot of that what is that yeah it's um so developers this is actually the lift story is really interesting to me so at lyft developers were really uneasy about moving from the monolith to the micro-services architecture just because they didn't early understand the network component and we're like network reliability would not be so reliable would fail and time service meshes have allowed engineers at lyft to understand where their failures happen and in terms like of a network standpoint and so you're basically abstracting with network layer and allowing more transparency into it this is like very useful for when you have lots of Micra services and you want this kind of reliability and stability awesome so one point 9s coming Spence support Windows that's what key and now a congratulations just go to the next level I mean growth talk about the growth because it's fun for us to watch you know kind of a small group core young community less than three years old really to kubernetes kind of had some traction but it really is going to be commoditized and that's not a bad thing so how do you what's your take on this what's the vibe what's that what's the current feeling inside the community right now excited pinching ourselves no I think everybody's in awe everybody is in awe and we're just like we want to make this the best experience possible in terms of an open source experience you know we want to welcome people to the community we want to serve the people's needs and we just we just want to do a good job because this is really fun and I think the people working on these problems are having a lot of fun with with seeing this kind of growth and support it's been great certainly for US president creation president and creation of this whole movement it's been fun to watch a document final question what should people expect this week what is the show going to hopefully do what's your prediction what's your purpose here what should people expect this week and the folks that didn't make it what do they miss okay there are so many things happening it's insane you're going to get a little bit of everything there's lots of different tracks lots of diverse content I think I'm when I go to conferences in my personal experience I really love technical salons those are really great because you can get your hands dirty and you can get questions answered by the people who created the project that's an experience that is is really powerful for me I went to the first open tracing salon and that's where I kind of got my hands dirty with tracing and been siegelman who's doing the keynote today this afternoon was the person who was teaching me how to like do this stuff so yeah it was awesome like some marketing fluff no it's not and it's just like it's it's real experienced very expert like experts you know in the in the space teaching you these things so that that definitely can't be replicated I think the cig sessions will be really cool there's a big focus on not just learning stuff but also collaborating and and just talking about things before they get documented so that's a really good experience here it's an action-packed schedule I tweeted that it feels like I'm you know when Burning Man had like a hundred people announced this big thing I think this is the beginning of a amazing industry people are cool they're helpful they're getting you're getting involved answering questions open-book here yeah at cloud native Punk you've got thanks Michele Farrelly been coming on co-chair senior engineer at Microsoft great to have her on the cube great keynote great color great fun exciting times here at cloud native con I'm John furry the founders look at angle media with too many men my co-hosts more live coverage after the short break

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners welcome back to the cube Silicon angle media's two-day live production of KU con and cloud native con ops to minimun my co-host for the same segment is matt Probert happy to welcome back to the program clayton Coleman who's the architect of containerized application infrastructure with the red hat clayton great to see you it's great to see you too alright so first of all 4100 people you impressed I am I'm hugely impressed every year this gets bigger and bigger the community is out in force people building on top of kubernetes and in the cloud any ecosystem around it for us and it's it's really phenomenal yes so John Fourier interviewed you last year at the Seattle show I think it's what triple the size the number of projects are gone from four to 14 but at the core I mean it's kubernetes and you spend you know quite a lot of your time tell us you know what have you been working on the last year I know what was it what's important in your life well I think the biggest things that we've really tried to focus on are making kubernetes a good foundation for both a community as well as for a technology stack because kubernetes is about empowering developers it's about empowering operations teams and we always anticipated there to be many levels and many ways of building on top of Rene's to make it an ecosystem so that people can build and deploy software but other people besides us can succeed and I think that's more than anything else in the last year it's about ensuring that everyone besides the kubernetes community is successful not just kubernetes itself yeah it's interesting when we think back to like Linux it's you know Red Hat you did quite well with Linux also you know from the enterprise standpoint from from the company we appreciate what Red Hat had did to make sure that Linux could be used by everyone seems like a lot of you know similar themes that we see but how could you kind of compare good drives Linux versus kubernetes today it's interesting everyone is a lot more conscious of open source and the idea of building a platform because of the example of Linux and so we've tried to actually be pretty conscious about that which is we want there to be a strong community we want there to be a technical respect among not just the core of the project but also the different layers and the cloud the cloud native Foundation has actually done a really good job of bringing together mutually complementary technologies but also helping and support those communities from a RedHat perspective a lot of the things we work on our stability security reliability we also work on extension because extension to us allows us both to support customers but also to help the open source ecosystems that we depend on that I'm sorry just for audience can you explain what extension is sure extension is actually it's a number of things in kubernetes we really want you to be possible if we're gonna build in kubernetes things that make running applications easier we want everyone else to build their own tools that make it easier to run applications and we don't want to be opinionated and kind of the same way as maybe some other ecosystems about who gets to build what instead we want to open the doors for vendors for partners for deployers for individual users to build their own extensions and points of contact with kubernetes to really solve their own problems we can't solve all those problems but that plays really nicely into it right the cloud native foundation has gone from four projects to 14 that's right just a year and you're talking about the extensions what do you want people to take away from that proliferation of projects that are all being supported and seen as essential to the eCos kubernetes it takes the spectrum we want we want everyone to be able to use kubernetes and to use the other projects either independently on their own but I think a lot of us in the kubernetes community in the CN CF communities believe that a lot of these tools work really well together and finding new opportunities to make it easy to work together so Prometheus is a great example it's exploded across the ecosystem I think at the last cognitive con Prometheus was really the talk of the show and I think what I've seen is that a lot of people around the ecosystem not just in that core community on a very specific project I've taken the ideas that underlie that technology I tried to apply it to other things that they were doing so you see people building integrations into Prometheus you see in flux DB working with Prometheus to share data press a lot of really exciting cross collaboration and the end goal really is to make building and running applications easier which is something we really believe in as well all right you use the word a spectrum when you talk about users out there there's lots of them that are kind of in the 101 phase we know there's people doing things through production what are you seeing you know kind of the help us walk through some of the spectrum as to where customers are what you're seeing some of the big challenges that they're facing in spectrum really there's no other word because the range of people using kubernetes in production and development is so incredibly diverse I would say the two extremes are people who are today deploying micro services based production applications on public cloud and they're bringing you know three or four or ten or 100 applications it might be a two or three developer team and they're really finding a lot of value in that because kubernetes is taking a lot of the heavy lifting and they can rely on that to keep their applications running into rapidly deploy on the complete other end is giant corporations people with you know decades of investment in IT finding ways to use kubernetes and OpenShift which is the product that Red Hat ships around kubernetes to empower you know tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of applications and in those models kubernetes is just one small part of the larger hole and this is where ecosystem really comes into play in the middle I think we're starting to see a lot of really exciting things as people have the they've got their one team working together and they as they start reaching out and bringing other teams as companies grow as they say find more reasons to use kubernetes they start asking questions like well how do I have all these teams working together without impacting the other teams and that's where multi-tenancy that's a real specialty for Red Hat and OpenShift is multi-tenancy and we're actually really excited to work with people in the community to build out these technologies at many different levels to have you know kind of that spectrum tart to spread from the middle as well you know one of the things coming into this show you know the last year or two was like okay who's gonna win kind of the orchestration battle and it's like okay kubernetes you know here it is well now there's like 42 different providers you know open ship being one of them where does Red Hat you know look to add value to the customers is it just a piece of the platform how does Red Hat look at it and how to customers when do they come to you when do they say you know oh wait I'm just gonna go build all my own pieces and and use some of the Red Hat pieces I if working with open source and Linux has taught us anything it's that one of the key components of a successful story is a distribution the idea of curating making a few choices making it easy to bring things into that distribution and we've actually started to really apply the distribution mindset to kubernetes so if you look at openshift it is a platform it has two that help you run tens of thousands of applications together with tens of thousands of users to bring operational control but it's hard it's about taking the best technologies in the community and bringing them together and so I would actually expect over the next year or two to start seeing the idea of the distribution emerge in kubernetes in the cloud native ecosystem where you know we won't it's not ever gonna just be one company dominating open-source that's not how open-source works I would expect to see an effort at thinking about kubernetes is before the kernel if you will and bringing together all of the successful technologies like the ones that we've seen at cloud native con here today and bringing even more of them letting people mix and match to find the solutions that work for them I really like that view of a - because you're saying that the open source at its core is open and unup enya nated while distributions are an outlet to have opinion in refined business problems so how do you see that playing out a little bit there's always going to be some trade-off when you make choices for people and so I think the way that we look at it is we try to make choices that make sense when you're dealing at certain scales when long term support and life cycle becomes really critical you know if you can't afford a production outage because you have 10,000 applications running together then it becomes really important to focus on those but at the same time we actually expect there to be different choices and trade-offs to be made and we'll want to actually encourage people to mix and match the different parts of the ecosystem and what patterns are you seeing in enterprise readiness or any enterprise feature sets that are combining into what you hope to see out of the distribution at the heart of its security tends to come up a lot you know everybody everybody who's making the leap from we made the leap from bare metal to virtualization and then at a large number of management platforms grew to encompass it and virtualization brought its own changes containers were starting to mature and how we understand how the software lifecycle works with containers how it works in large multi-tenant environments I think the next step will be as we become more mature that a lot of these patterns will be baked in and so you'll see you know standard solutions we all kind of need to work together to make those standard solutions happen we're actually seeing that in a number of the things you know even today I'll talk about the CNC F conformance profile for kubernetes it's a new effort that intends to take the tests that we use in kubernetes to make sure it's working correctly and use that to say this is something that you can rely on every kubernetes distribution also supporting and just like any other mechanism that we use to make sure that we're delivering something that is stable and predictable across a wide number of spaces I would expect in the future to see things like conformance for multi-tenancy conformance for security specifically in cube and to see vendors bring their own approaches partners ecosystem players integrating their solutions and then new open-source solutions fitting into that as well the keynote this morning there were a lot of these projects you know getting to the next Rev Cooper net is gonna be a 1.9 many of the underlying kind of supporting pieces are hitting kind of the 1 dot Oh out there your top contributor for kubernetes what's that experience like today lots of new people still coming on how's the balance of kind of the you know few that are heavily involved versus kind of the majority when we started kubernetes it was a very there's an interesting mix it was a lot of engineers working on very concrete ideas things that we'd want to try to bring to fruition together in the community and it's been a very deliberate goal over the last two years to broaden that into a successful and healthy open-source ecosystem which means a lot of mentoring which means working to find the different ways that people can contribute in an ecosystem Sarah Novotny from Google often uses the chop wood carry water analogy there's many different ways that people can work together and everyone has a spot so we spent a lot of time being very deliberate about being open trying to organize ways for new contributors to get oriented and to bring their value but at the same time we actually want to mentor and grow the next level of technical leadership in kubernetes no I won't be here forever and I don't want to be here forever I want people to replace me in the open-source community because that's a healthy community yeah I think the stratification of contribution is one of the number-one signs of success from from my perspective and I see a distinct different invitation for each type of user so you have the user you have the administrator and then you also have a developer are there any things you've noticed changing in one of those patterns that like really hits home for you I think the developer pattern is the most interesting you know there's a lot of focus on how do you use kubernetes in many different ways and a lot of developers want to get their hands on and dig in and so there's actually been a lot of great community projects that are focused on making kubernetes easy to consume at a small scale all of that then ties back into well in kubernetes we want to be pretty opinion if we're going to be a kernel there needs to be a space for things like the compiler and the programming language distributions I'm actually hoping that we can keep that focus on making sure there's a good set of projects in the ecosystem that meat developers where they are so that they can start using kubernetes and then I don't want to say trick but trick them into becoming contributors and help us get that feedback about how we can make Rene's better helping to paint the fence is very fun that's right all right Clayton last question I have for you you're doing two keynotes this week give our audience that you know won't be there in person give us a taste for that and especially want to hear kind of the outlook for kind of the next 12 months through 2018 sure so my first keynote tomorrow is a just a real quick one I'm going to try and convince everybody that kubernetes should be boring and I'll leave it at that you know boring is good in very specific ways boring equals mature right I would certainly hope so and on Friday I'm gonna talk about what's coming up in the kubernetes ecosystem in 2018 a lot of people have finally jumped on board the kubernetes bandwagon and what I'd like to do is kind of help people find those exciting projects to get involved with if if we're gonna have a vibrant ecosystem and community helping people understand where they can get involved and to find the things that match their interest is going to be really important okay anything specific that you're super excited about looking forward to next year or any project or I've got to say and this is not a it's not a company line but sto is incredibly exciting because one of our goals with kubernetes was always about making it easier to run applications and sto and the idea of service mesh is taking that to the next level and I actually hope to see even more projects like that over the next few years in the ecosystem that solve things like server lists and databases of service and I think we're actually starting to really see that develop yeah well companies are all looking to move faster get those applications up and running this do definitely one of the ones we heard buzzing before the show Clayton Coleman thanks so much for joining us again hope to catch up with you again soon for metroburg I'm Stu Mittleman we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the cubes coverage of KU con and cloud native con 2017 here in Austin Texas you're watching the Q you

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundations and the cubes ecosystem partners hello everyone welcome to the cube live in Austin Texas for exclusive coverage of cloud native conference and cube con cube con with the linux foundation on john fourier co-founder silicon angle media tube Minutemen with ricky bond and also covering the developer community we just came off Amazon reinvent last week we're now in Austin Texas for a continuation of the Builder theme around this new generation of developers exclusive coverage of cloud native con and cube con or cube cons to cube con like kubernetes john byrne not to be confused with the cube of course when 2018 we're gonna do cube con right John yeah so cube con is coming to check for local listings around an area near you will be will be there stew what a great event I love this events one of my favorite events as you know personally for the cube audience out there and who know us I've been following us we've been growing up with this community we've been covering the Linux Foundation from the beginning if you go back to our roots around 2010 we've always been on the next wave whether it was big date of the converge infrastructure on the enterprise and then cloud the cube is always on the wave and then wave and we call that we were there when kubernetes was formed we were there with the principles JJ when and his team cuz Maddock with blue Tucker kind of brain so me hey we should do kubernetes and we said then kubernetes would be huge it would be the orchestration that would be the battleground in what we were at the time calling the middleware of the cloud turns out that was true that is happening huge change in the ecosystem as containerization with docker originally starting it and then the evolution of how software developers are voting with their workloads they're voting with their code and no better place than the Linux Foundation to your analysis obviously we're super excited but there's some dynamics going on there's a class of venture backed companies that I won't say are groping for a strategic position are certainly investing in open source but brings up the questions of the business model where's the value being created what is the right strategy do I do services do I have a different approach there's a lot of different opinions and if the customers choose wrong they could be on the wrong side of history as this massive wave of innovation with AI machine learning is impacting infrastructure and DevOps it's awesome we heard Netflix on stage let's do what's your take what's going on here cloud native cons yeah so so John I love you know Dan who were you know runs the CN CF gets out on stage and he says you know it's exciting time for boring infrastructure maybe maybe too exciting I even said you know we've been watching this wave of you know containerization and kubernetes and this whole CN CF ecosystem has really taken you know that container piece and exploded beyond this really talking about how I build for these cloud native environments you know there's 14 projects here kubernetes is the one that kicked it off but so many pieces of what's happening here john AWS last week phenomenal like 45,000 people a lot of the real builders the ones you know heavily involved in projects or like ah I actually might skip AWS come to come to coop con this coop con this is where you know so many people we've seen you know founders of companies working on so many projects you know large community you know great community focus I know you like Netflix up there talking about culture big diversity I think what was it 130 scholarships for people of diversity there so really phenomenal stuff you know this is where really that multi-cloud world is being built yeah and good points too because that's really the elephant in the room which is the prophets and the monetization of developer communities is not the primary but it's a big driver and how people are behaving and Amazon reinvent in this world are parallel universes you know it's interesting you don't see a lot of reinvent hoodies I wore mine last night got a couple dirty looks but this is you see a lot of Google you see a lot of Microsoft John John John we have Adrian Cockcroft was in the keynote this morning everybody's saying we're braising the databases here you don't think that's the case I think everyone does embrace it isn't number one isn't really no second place they're far back as I said at reinvent I still stand by that but you got big players okay dan cohen basically said on stage okay it's my projects products and profits and they're putting profits actually in the narrative because they're not shying away from soup but it's not a pay-to-play kind of ecosystem here it's like saying look at the visibility of the cloud has shine the light on the fact that there is an opportunity to create value of which value then can be translated to monetization and developers like to get paid no one likes that do things totally for free that is the scoreboard of value it's not just about chasing the dollar and I think I like how the CN CF is putting out the prophets saying look at this real value here in businesses is real value in products that come from these projects this is a new era and open source I think that's legit again pay-to-play is a completely different animal yeah vendors come in control the standards pay pay pay not anymore Brendan burns told me last year Microsoft no pay to play Microsoft's got a big platform they're gonna come in and make things happen ok so John the money thing is a big question I have coming into this week dan talked up on stage there's certified service providers for kubernetes and there's certified kubernetes partners 42 certified kubernetes partners for the most part kubernetes has been commoditized today that certification doesn't mean that hundred-percent everything works but it definitely over a you know short period of time it will be means that I if I choose any platform that uses kubernetes that certified I can move from one to the other it doesn't mean that I'm actually going to make money selling kubernetes it's that that's part of the platform or services that arm offering and it is an enabler and you know that's what's a little different you think about you know John we try for years OpenStack thought we were gonna make money on it how we're gonna make money even go back to Linux you know it's what can be built using this set of tools so people have said this is really rebuilding the analytics for the cloud environment but money is kind of its derivative off of it it's an enabler to are there great software it brilliants dude this is the bottom line here it's the tale of two stories in the industry okay this in the backdrop is this and if prices are an IT specifically in development teams platforms are shifting big time the old is an old guard as Andy Jackson said the invest in a new guard the dynamics are containerization drove megatrend number one that turbocharged the cloud infrastructure and gave developers some freedom micro-services then take it to another level what it's actually done has changed at two theaters in the industry theater one is the vendors that are getting funded that participants in open source work trying to create value and then what I would call the rest of the market there is an onboarding a tsunami of new developers coming in I'm seeing in the in theater one all the people that we know in the industry and then I'm seeing new faces these are people who are going to the light the light is the monetization and that's the value creation so you seeing people here for the first time you're seeing developers who have a clear line of sight that this community creates value so that's two dynamics so that the companies that got a hundred million dollars in funding from venture capitals they're trying to figure out can they take advantage of that wave of new developers there's been an in migration into cloud native of new developers and these are the ones they're going to be creating the value the creativity the solutions and certainly the cultural impact from those solutions will be great I see a great opportunity if people just don't get scared and just hold the line keep your hitting value it'll figure itself out so the evolution is natural and that is something I'm interesting to see okay and John the thing I'm looking for this week first of all when we talked about containers we talked about this whole cloud native environment that boring infrastructure stuff it still matters networking has matured a little bit there's the CNI initiative the cloud native I'm sorry container networking interface which is approaching one auto they're getting feedback here second one is storage most of the these solutions we really started talking about stateless environments state absolutely has to be a piece of this how do we fit you know you know data AI ml all these things data is critically critically important so that needs to be there and then the new technology that you know we spent a lot of time talking about at AWS that was serverless and there's actually like a half day track here at this show talking about how all of these solutions how serverless fits into them there was a question does serverless replace the because I don't need to think about it really a lot of the same tooling a lot of these usage will fit into those server lists frameworks so it's not in either/or but really more of an an environment but definitely something that we expect to hear more of this we've done we've got a phenomenal lineup I'm super excited did you know some of these builders that we've got you know big players we've got startups we've got authors we've got a good diverse audience coming on the cube so and you know I know near and dear to your heart you know lots of developer talk a lot of their over talks do this is a fun time the commoditization of kubernetes is actually a good thing in my mind I think there will be a lot of value to be created and this really is about multi cloud you mentioned all three of the major clouds and now Maurice are all a bob on stage just in China you got a lot more growth you're seeing that kubernetes really is an opportunity for Google and Microsoft and the rest of the community to run as fast as they can to create services so that customers can have a choice choice is the new black that's what's going on and multi-cloud not yet here but certainly on the horizon and if Google and Azure do not establish a mike-mike multi cloud environment Amazon could run away with it that's my that's my tag that's my visibility on it the bottom line is whoever can creates the value so what I'm gonna look for is the impact of the continued kubernetes kinda monetization and the new formations do the new relationships the existing players like red hat are going to continue to kick ass you're gonna start to see new players come in you can expect to see new partnerships because the stack is being developed very fast smooth announcements for me theists flew and deke container D Windows support coming with 1.9 kubernetes what's happening is they're running as fast as they can they're pedaling as fast as they can because if they do not they will be blown away that's the cube coverage here kicking off day one I'm John Purdue minimun exciting times here at cloud native and cube on back after this short break