>> SiliconANGLE Media presents ... theCUBE! Covering AlibabaCloud's annual conference. Brought to you by Intel. Now, here's John Furrier... >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE, Wikibon, and theCUBE. We are here for an exclusive Cube conversations at the Alibaba Cloud conference here in Hangzhou, China. We're here with Dr. Wang, who's the chairman of the Alibaba Group Technology Committee as well as the founder of Alibaba Cloud, here in the new Museum of Inspiration at the event. Thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thank you for coming. >> So before we talk about Alibaba Cloud and all the goodness going on here at the conference, talk about this Museum of Inspiration. It is new, and it has kind of a display theme. You kind of walk through time. What was the motivation and the inspiration for the museum? >> Yeah, I think the keyword for the museum, inspiration, is really the inspiration that started the museum. I would say that there's two, really the artists thinking about that. The first thing is really about when people, people take a lot of things for granted. One of the goals for this museum, it just shows the people they probably see every day. But just let them, just, wow, okay, that's different from what I thought. I think a lot of people take for granted, but it's really a great invention, a great human contribution to the whole society. I think that one thing is really about that people understand why we got here today. So that's the first thing. The other thing is really about science and technology. When people are talking about science and technology, people often will say, whether we can combine science and technology. But I don't think that's the right way to describe the relationship between science and technology. I would say science and technology, really the two sides of the coin. I really want to see, let people to see two sides instead of mixing together and got one thing. So that's two things that's parallel, just like zero and one. They are two things. When they're put together in a computer, amazing things happen. If you mix the zero and the one, like half something, then it's just not that fun. So I really want to make sure it's the museum of science and art instead of the mixture of science and arts. So that's the one thing. The other thing is really about the inspiration of future. Most of the museum is really about the past, to show how we have in the past, and with less on the inspiration to help people to think about the future. This museum is really, when we think about everything over here, we did talk about the past, but we want to make sure people think about the future. That's the whole idea about the museum. >> And the computer industry is fairly young, if you go back to modern computing. But you kind of have a take here about how technology really is embedded in life. Talk more about that impact 'cause that seems to translate to the conference here at Alibaba, that technology isn't just about the speeds and the feeds, it's about the integration into life. >> Yeah, and I think that from this museum we can see actually I trace back the origin of all the technology. When people are talking about the computer technology, I really want to talk about the computing technology. And then we can trace back, see actually the human is the first signal computing device. Our Mother Nature created for us. If you look at the same things differently, you really can see the origin of that. I think in this museum we talk about two really original things. The first is about the nature origin of the Internet. When talking about Internet, people talk about our current technological infrastructure of Internet. When you look at the human history, how is when people walk, you create an Internet for Earth? You can see a lot of things can trace back. Then, with this kind of trace back, you can help us to think about what's going to happen next. The trace of the original idea is actually very important if you're thinking about technology. >> Talk about the story of Alibaba Cloud. That is not, It's new, Amazon has had it for around, early 2000's. But you guys came right after Amazon, 2009. Still young and growing. How does the Alibaba Cloud take the culture of this inspiration? What are some of the design principles of the Alibaba Cloud? >> Actually I would say the Alibaba Cloud is different from the Amazon Cloud. In the sense we have different vision about the future. Unfortunately though, we are put under the same umbrella called cloud computing by media, I will say that. So we are different, in the sense when the Amazon, actually I show great respect to Amazon. When Amazon started cloud computing, they are really talking about the utility. They're talking about how to cut the cost down. So basically, they start with the low cost of IT infrastructure. That's what I understand. When I started Alibaba Cloud, we know that actually cost is important for sure. But we know that actually the computing part is more important than the cost if you're thinking about the big data era. We started with thinking it's the acentric cloud computing. When you look at our first brochure and we put those words over there. That's almost nine years ago. We called it acentric cloud computing. Instead of the IT-centric cloud computing. This actually, it's not just an idea difference. It's actually, eventually, influenced of the underlying technology infrastructure. Our whole underlying technological infrastructure is designed for the data, instead of just for the IT deployment. >> Jack Ma was talking about this industrial revolution, this digital transformation. What strikes me is you guys have that same art and scientist dynamic, art and science coming together, reminds me of the Steve Jobs technology liberal arts thinking that spawns new creativity. Certainly the iPhone is a great example of that as one of the many things. But now the new generation is coming together. You have a big artist focus here at the event. Music festival, not just technology. How is that part of the focus at the event here? What does that mean for new developers? >> I think it's really the crossing behind that. If you're thinking about technology and now e-commerce, what's really the one thing behind that that's really changed the way of peoples' lives? Computing in that sense, computing is not just technology. It's really something that changes the way of life of every people. I think the e-commerce change the way of life of every people. In that sense, they are the same. If you look at the peoples' lives, they won't just live on technology. They won't just live on the arts. They need a life, love means everything. By nature, we have to make sure as consumers, they need something more than just one thing. I think we are very lucky we understand that. If you're thinking about the young people, I will give you a few numbers about this conference about young people. In China, we have a very specific word talking about the young people a couple of years ago. We call the 'badiho'. It basically means the generation born of the '80s. When people talk about 'jodiho', that basically means people born after '90s. And then people talking about the 'leniho' it's basically people born after 2000. I think that most of the visitors for this conference are 'leniho', 'jodiho', and 'badiho'. These are all young, all young people. >> The digital culture. >> It's a digital culture. I would rather use my own word in the book I would say instead of digital. For me, digital generation is already an old generation I would say. I would like to call this the online generation. They do everything online. Even the last generation do a lot of things digital because digital is everywhere. But I want to emphasize it's an online generation. They do everything online. >> Dr. Wang, talk about data. You mentioned that's the key ingredient, the fuel for innovation. That's impacting the city brain project you guys are doing. Talk about the city brain and the role of data and how that's impacting the societal users out there certainly here in China, the traffic is crowded. This is just an example of what else is out there. >> Okay. City brain actually it's, again it means different things based on the perspective. One thing that's probably important is the data. This is first time actually I think instead of using the big data, it's better to using what I call the data results. It's a better word than big data. I think the one fundamental thinking for the city brain is we find a human army. Humans finally realize actually that data results is the most precious resource for the city, instead of land and water supply. Because we already know that the land is limited. The water supply is limited. This is very important. It doesn't view data as a non-essential thing. It's just a part of your IT system. We finally realize that data is part of the city instead of part of your city IT system. I think it's a leap frog thinking, at least for me. When it got to that, and you realize that today all the existing IT systems cannot actually really embrace the data. IT system is just to support the people doing the work they used to do. And then you realize we need an infrastructure to really make the value from the data. Just like we have water supply for the city, then you can use the reservoir. Otherwise, the reservoir is useless for the city. I think city brain is just like a water supply system for the data. The city eventually can consume that. We start thinking it's a new infrastructure for the city just like water supply system, just like power grid, just like any way system. That's how we're thinking about it. This is the first thing. The reason we got to the traffic system is this is the problem every city has around the world. From my yesterday's presentation, I just joked about we build two roads for the city, which is too many. I was thinking a lot of people realize it. That's why Boston had the project. They want to get all the roads under the surface. Under surface. But it's still a road. It's still expensive. You know how much money they spend just to move all the roads. >> The big dig, I remember, that was the-- >> Yes, that's a big dig. I don't think that's, that's good for the transportation system, but I don't think that's the number one way for the growth of the city. I think probably most of the city don't have the money to do that. What the data city brain wants to do whether we can take the resource of data and we can optimize every aspect of the city so we can use less resource to support city growth. When we start with the traffic, it's just to make sure, you know that when we use the data to optimize the traffic lights, the idea behind that actually we use the data to optimize the time. How to just read the time. It's not just lights. And then if you're thinking, when we show the eventually, if you have enough data, then we can have less roads in the city but still got the same. >> So the Internet of Things is the hottest trend. 0bviously machine learning and artificial intelligence are part of that, and the cloud powers this new edge of the network, and the data has to flow. So the question that a lot of technologists who are architecting these solutions ask is how do you make the data go at a very low latency? That takes compute power. That takes a lot of technology. How does Alibaba Cloud think about the architecture? Obviously you have a strategic partner like Intel, Obviously with a lot of compute power. You got to think differently around making the data move. If it's like water, it needs to flow. So real time is really important, but self-driving cars, real time is down to the millisecond, nanosecond. How do you think about that as a technologist? >> I think the, if you go back to the Internet of things, I think it's still the Internet. I would say eventually, if you're thinking about the word cloud computing and people use edge computing and people talking about Internet of things. For me, it's just the computing of the Internet. Cloud computing is the computing of the Internet and edge computing is computing on the Internet. Even the IoT is the computing of the Internet. If you're talking about the data, I think eventually it's really about the data on the Internet. It's not data on the sensor. It's not data on the cloud. Basically it's data on the Internet. I would expect eventually the Internet infrastructure will be improved significantly. It's not an improved cloud. It's not improved edge computing. Or it's improvement of the IoT. But it's really, >> Together. >> it's together. >> So Intel, I was covering them, Mobile World Congress earlier in the year. And obviously five G. You need the mobile overlay, that's super important. You also have the end-to-end inside the cloud. Obviously Intel is a strategic partner. Can you talk about the relationship you have with Intel? And also your philosophy, technically speaking, with the ecosystem? Because it's not just Intel, it's everybody. There's a lot of people here at this event. American companies as well as international companies who are now going to be part of your ecosystem. >> Actually the, we certainly have a very good relationship with Intel. I think we share in some sense the same vision. I think that the number one thing is really about people learning about how important the computing is. For me, the Intel is not that, a chip selling company. Intel is really the provider of computing power. That's what I understand. And we can expect eventually the whole ecosystem is really about who is going to provide the computing power. Who is going to provide the infrastructure to make the data? Instead of just equipment supply, eventually the need for computing, and the need for data, will be the challenge for every company, including Alibaba Cloud. We are not, we are not immune from these challenges. We will feel the same challenge. What we want to do is really make sure that with all these partners, provide enough computing for the next 10 or 20 years. We want to make sure that there's enough data flow for the next 10 years. In that sense, it's not the traditional ecosystem as like you do this and you do that. It's basically how we can work together to really make sure we have the challenge for the data and computing in the next 10 years. >> Yesterday we covered the news that you guys announced 15, building and R&D over the next three years, which is a lot of money. Also it has a very international and global view. Academics with younger folks. Alibaba Cloud is going to be a part of that, I'm assuming. I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see that intersecting. But the question for you is the cloud world today is moving at very, very fast speed. We're seeing Amazon, for instance, has been the best in terms of new announcements every year. Not one or two, like a ton of announcements, a lot. How are you guys going to continue to keep the pace? To move faster because the city brain is a great project, but it's going to have more evolution. It's going to move fast. How are you guys keeping up with the pace? >> I think the only way, that's not just for the next 10 years. Actually when I started Alibaba Cloud, we take the same philosophy. Actually the user moves very fast than us. If you look at the users in China they move very fast probably than anywhere else around the world. If you use the city brain project, I would say city brain project is basically tell the people, we need the computing power more than any other task. You really can see that. People want you. If you can't satisfy their demand, then somebody else is going to do that. It's not something we want to move fast but >> You have to move fast. >> You have to move fast. That's why the China is special. I want to say China is not just a place for the market. China is the place that pushes you to move faster. That's more important than market size. >> You mentioned data technology and information technology kind of transferring to a new world. Software is also a big part of it. Software you have to compute, obviously with Intel and the relationships you have. But software is growing exponentially. Certainly in open source, we see Cloud Native Foundation here. They'll probably have Linux foundation. Open source is going to grow exponentially. Most of the code will be shipping. But you have more data growing exponentially. Software is eating the world, but data is eating software. That means data is greater than software. If you look at it that way, that's super important. As the new architects, you and I were just talking about how we've in the industry for a while. You certainly have an amazing career from Microsoft now at Alibaba. A new generation of architects and developers are going to create new innovations around this dynamic of data. What's your advice and how do you view that if you are 21 years old again right now and you were going to jump into studies and academic and or field. It's a whole new world. >> I think there's probably two suggestions. Not necessarily for the young generation, but I would say it's just a suggestion for the young generation to push that habit. The first thing you mentioned about the data eats software. Well, I would put it in a different perspective. I would say for the last generation, the last two or three generations, I would say the computer era, we are really talking about the computer software. That's pretty much in everything. For this generation, I would say we are talking about computing plus the data. That box is not important, but the computing power is more important. For the computing era, the box is important. >> There's no box. It's the world, it's the cloud. >> That's one thing. The implication for this, I want the young generation to push is, then we need the new infrastructure. Thinking about the build as a great vision, got to have the computer in every home. That's infrastructure. Today when you are in the computing process data era, the infrastructure is not there. I think the vision for the Alibaba Cloud is make sure that we have this infrastructure for the next 10 or 20 years so the young generation can take advantage of that and to do that innovation and inventions, just like computing in every home. >> That's very important. I think that also speaks to businesses, how enterprises, I remember my first start up, I had to buy all this equipment and put it into the telephone closet. Now, start ups and small businesses don't need IT departments. This has been a big growth area certainly for Alibaba Cloud. But now all businesses might have a small closet, not a big data center. This is going to change the nature of business. So work and play are coming together. This speaks to the Museum of Inspiration theme here where you can have work and play kind of integrate but yet still be separate in that analog digital world. What's your vision on this new dimension of everything doesn't have to be just digital? You can have an analog life and mix it with digital. >> Actually I was always sad. It's not, the world never has just one side. It always has two sides. The difference is which side is important at a particular time. Just like when people talk about digital and analog, the analog will exist forever. It's hard for you to kill. The question is whether you can find the most beauty from the digital at the same time you can most beautiful part of the analog. I would say that the people, just like when talking about software, people still loved the hardware. And people still loved the touch. The digital has to make sure it looks good. Will it work versus it looks good? I would say we want to make sure people live in a world with two sides, instead of just giving them one side of the world. >> You mentioned people still love hardware. I always say, a car drives but there's still an engine, and people like to understand the engine. There's a maker culture in the United States that's been growing over the past two decades. And now even more accelerated is the maker culture because of the edge and how technology has become part of the fabric of life. How do you see that maker culture being enabled by more cloud services? Because anyone can make a skateboard or motorcycle or a computer or a device now. Powering that with the cloud is an opportunity. How do you view that? >> I would say that eventually, if we have the broad definition of a cloud, I would say eventually, everything the maker makes will be part of the cloud. When talking about clouds, we're really talking about Internet, so every hardware, every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. I would say, if you look at the evolution of the Internet, Internet, it's just a backbone at the very beginning. Actually the first revolution the Internet made is really to make sure that every piece of software is a part of Internet. That's how we got the world wide web. I would say when talking about the maker culture, I would say eventually that every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. So Internet won't be complete without the hardware. In that sense, the cloud is a really essential part of that. >> There's some really interesting things happening here in China that I'm excited about. One of them is the nature of the user base and how close you guys are to that. In the US a similar scale but it's kind of spread over a bunch of other cloud providers. But the interesting phenomenon as data grows exponentially, as software grows exponentially in open source, things are becoming more decentralized. Without talking about the whole initial coin offerings, I know China has banned it and Russia's going to ban it. Other countries are putting a clamp down on crypto currency. Putting that aside, there's still blockchain as a potential disruptive enabler. You're seeing decentralization becoming a new architecture dynamic because you have to support the growth of these devices at the edge. Distributive computing has been around for a while, but now a decentralized architecture dynamic exists. How do you steer that technology direction? >> You have to separate from the the distributive architecture versus its physical location. I would say I like the blockchain idea very much. I think eventually it would be part of the Internet. It's not just something that sits on top of the Internet. It would be very fundamental, just like TCP and IP. This is low level, so this would be part of the Internet instead of standing on top of the Internet. Eventually, in that sense, Internet would be very distributed. By thinking that it's nothing, there's no decentralization exists. You still need, even though physically, it's in one place. >> It's almost decentralized, not 100 percent. >> Yeah, yeah. Obviously this would be different. Without Internet, without new software, that basically, just like PC. PC is really in a single box, and we use all software in a box. We distribute architecture. We could have decentralized, but everything actually is distributed. You still cannot trace that. You put like a meeting. A service in a data center. It's actually distributed over this one meeting service. In that sense, it's completely distributed. >> That server list too is a big trend where if you talk about the edge of the network, you got to move compute to the data sometimes. Or have compute on the edge. So this is going to be continued growth, you see that as well right? >> Yes, but I still think, if you use Silicon as a measure for this computing power, I would say if you can see there's more silicon on the edge, but I would say when we put one silicon on the edge, you probably have to put 100 silicons on the cloud. It's still kind of-- >> It's a relationship. >> It's a relationship, just like our body is very important but the brain consumes the most oxygen. >> It's important what's in the cloud then. You got to have the computing, have those ratios. It depends on the architecture. >> Yes, yes. >> Final question for you is as the folks in Silicon Valley, where we're based, and Palo Alto want to know is Alibaba, what it means to them? If you have a chance to say a few things about what Alibaba Cloud is to America, what would you like to say? >> I would say that actually they would just put the cloud computing aside. Just look at what it really means behind that. I think the cloud, we do have an understanding of what the cloud computing really means. At the very beginning actually, I wouldn't call the company a cloud computing company. I would call it a general computing company. It's really a fraction of what's thinking in China. Again, my comment is not just to view China as the market to sell your product. To view China as the place to inspire having a new product. >> And it's a global world now, the world is flat. >> Yes, just like United States, it's not, it's a place inspired. All the people around the world together to have a new idea. I think the people in China just love new things. They love to try new things. It really can shoot your size of your innovation. >> And it's a global collaboration, it's interesting. That phenomenon is going to continue. You've done amazing work here. Congratulations on the Museum of Inspiration and the projects you're working on. Personal question for you. What are you excited about now? We kind of joke about how old we are now, but the young people certainly have a great future ahead of them. But you have a lot of experience and you're steering Alibaba's technology committee across the group as well as being the founder of the cloud. What are you excited about right now, technically speaking? What's the big, or just impact? What's the big wave that you like? >> I think it's very exciting in a couple of things, three things I would say. The first is really about just look at technology itself. Just like when I described my book, it's really, really exciting in your life if you can see the Internet plus the computing and plus data, cause they're together. Just like you have this engine, you have the airplane, a couple of things, they're together wherever. This is a very, very exciting era. This is not just about a technology era. It's an era that all things happen at the same time, so that's very exciting. That's one thing. The second thing as you read about the city around over here, I think the the Alibaba the Hanzo, it's just a very special for Alibaba, but I think it's special for the other company as well. So this place is very special. Just to give you an idea where you are, this area has the most networked river in the past. If you look at the map, it's like Internet. I would say, all the people over here, just their mindset. It's just on an Internet mindset. Even goes back 100, 200 years ago because the river is the only way for them to travel, for the communications-- >> That's the data back then. >> That's exactly my point, see. If you look at the map, so this is very exciting. The other thing about that the Alibaba, for me, the Alibaba you know Alibaba, we have a very broad opinions. You can feel that. From a technology point of view, that basically means it's the place you can touch every aspect of technology. You have a very slight, very-- >> You have a great surface area aperture to look at impact of life. >> So you think about these three things together. It's hard to say the, you better get excited. >> It's a great time to be in technology, isn't it? Entertainment, e-commerce, web services. >> For me, when I work on the city brain project, it's just the beginning of machine learning. A lot of people, they are fighting for like, when people talk about speech recognition, they are fighting for the last one meter for the speech recognition. But if you're talking about city brain, it's the world. The most big AI project. And it's just the beginning. We just start with the one percent. >> It must be a lot of fun. You got a lot of data to work with. You have real life integration. It's super exciting. When are we going to see you in Silicon Valley? >> I appear regularly to Silicon Valley two or three times every year. We'll probably see sometime early next year. >> Thank you very much for the time, appreciate it. >> Thank you for coming to the conference and coming to the museum. >> Thank you very much for your inspiration. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> SiliconANGLE Media presents ... theCUBE! Covering AlibabaCloud's annual conference. Brought to you by Intel. Now, here's John Furrier... >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE, Wikibon, and theCUBE. We are here for an exclusive Cube conversations at the Alibaba Cloud conference here in Hangzhou, China. We're here with Dr. Wang, who's the chairman of the Alibaba Group Technology Committee as well as the founder of Alibaba Cloud, here in the new Museum of Inspiration at the event. Thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thank you for coming. >> So before we talk about Alibaba Cloud and all the goodness going on here at the conference, talk about this Museum of Inspiration. It is new, and it has kind of a display theme. You kind of walk through time. What was the motivation and the inspiration for the museum? >> Yeah, I think the keyword for the museum, inspiration, is really the inspiration that started the museum. I would say that there's two, really the artists thinking about that. The first thing is really about when people, people take a lot of things for granted. One of the goals for this museum, it just shows the people they probably see every day. But just let them, just, wow, okay, that's different from what I thought. I think a lot of people take for granted, but it's really a great invention, a great human contribution to the whole society. I think that one thing is really about that people understand why we got here today. So that's the first thing. The other thing is really about science and technology. When people are talking about science and technology, people often will say, whether we can combine science and technology. But I don't think that's the right way to describe the relationship between science and technology. I would say science and technology, really the two sides of the coin. I really want to see, let people to see two sides instead of mixing together and got one thing. So that's two things that's parallel, just like zero and one. They are two things. When they're put together in a computer, amazing things happen. If you mix the zero and the one, like half something, then it's just not that fun. So I really want to make sure it's the museum of science and art instead of the mixture of science and arts. So that's the one thing. The other thing is really about the inspiration of future. Most of the museum is really about the past, to show how we have in the past, and with less on the inspiration to help people to think about the future. This museum is really, when we think about everything over here, we did talk about the past, but we want to make sure people think about the future. That's the whole idea about the museum. >> And the computer industry is fairly young, if you go back to modern computing. But you kind of have a take here about how technology really is embedded in life. Talk more about that impact 'cause that seems to translate to the conference here at Alibaba, that technology isn't just about the speeds and the feeds, it's about the integration into life. >> Yeah, and I think that from this museum we can see actually I trace back the origin of all the technology. When people are talking about the computer technology, I really want to talk about the computing technology. And then we can trace back, see actually the human is the first signal computing device. Our Mother Nature created for us. If you look at the same things differently, you really can see the origin of that. I think in this museum we talk about two really original things. The first is about the nature origin of the Internet. When talking about Internet, people talk about our current technological infrastructure of Internet. When you look at the human history, how is when people walk, you create an Internet for Earth? You can see a lot of things can trace back. Then, with this kind of trace back, you can help us to think about what's going to happen next. The trace of the original idea is actually very important if you're thinking about technology. >> Talk about the story of Alibaba Cloud. That is not, It's new, Amazon has had it for around, early 2000's. But you guys came right after Amazon, 2009. Still young and growing. How does the Alibaba Cloud take the culture of this inspiration? What are some of the design principles of the Alibaba Cloud? >> Actually I would say the Alibaba Cloud is different from the Amazon Cloud. In the sense we have different vision about the future. Unfortunately though, we are put under the same umbrella called cloud computing by media, I will say that. So we are different, in the sense when the Amazon, actually I show great respect to Amazon. When Amazon started cloud computing, they are really talking about the utility. They're talking about how to cut the cost down. So basically, they start with the low cost of IT infrastructure. That's what I understand. When I started Alibaba Cloud, we know that actually cost is important for sure. But we know that actually the computing part is more important than the cost if you're thinking about the big data era. We started with thinking it's the acentric cloud computing. When you look at our first brochure and we put those words over there. That's almost nine years ago. We called it acentric cloud computing. Instead of the IT-centric cloud computing. This actually, it's not just an idea difference. It's actually, eventually, influenced of the underlying technology infrastructure. Our whole underlying technological infrastructure is designed for the data, instead of just for the IT deployment. >> Jack Ma was talking about this industrial revolution, this digital transformation. What strikes me is you guys have that same art and scientist dynamic, art and science coming together, reminds me of the Steve Jobs technology liberal arts thinking that spawns new creativity. Certainly the iPhone is a great example of that as one of the many things. But now the new generation is coming together. You have a big artist focus here at the event. Music festival, not just technology. How is that part of the focus at the event here? What does that mean for new developers? >> I think it's really the crossing behind that. If you're thinking about technology and now e-commerce, what's really the one thing behind that that's really changed the way of peoples' lives? Computing in that sense, computing is not just technology. It's really something that changes the way of life of every people. I think the e-commerce change the way of life of every people. In that sense, they are the same. If you look at the peoples' lives, they won't just live on technology. They won't just live on the arts. They need a life, love means everything. By nature, we have to make sure as consumers, they need something more than just one thing. I think we are very lucky we understand that. If you're thinking about the young people, I will give you a few numbers about this conference about young people. In China, we have a very specific word talking about the young people a couple of years ago. We call the 'badiho'. It basically means the generation born of the '80s. When people talk about 'jodiho', that basically means people born after '90s. And then people talking about the 'leniho' it's basically people born after 2000. I think that most of the visitors for this conference are 'leniho', 'jodiho', and 'badiho'. These are all young, all young people. >> The digital culture. >> It's a digital culture. I would rather use my own word in the book I would say instead of digital. For me, digital generation is already an old generation I would say. I would like to call this the online generation. They do everything online. Even the last generation do a lot of things digital because digital is everywhere. But I want to emphasize it's an online generation. They do everything online. >> Dr. Wang, talk about data. You mentioned that's the key ingredient, the fuel for innovation. That's impacting the city brain project you guys are doing. Talk about the city brain and the role of data and how that's impacting the societal users out there certainly here in China, the traffic is crowded. This is just an example of what else is out there. >> Okay. City brain actually it's, again it means different things based on the perspective. One thing that's probably important is the data. This is first time actually I think instead of using the big data, it's better to using what I call the data results. It's a better word than big data. I think the one fundamental thinking for the city brain is we find a human army. Humans finally realize actually that data results is the most precious resource for the city, instead of land and water supply. Because we already know that the land is limited. The water supply is limited. This is very important. It doesn't view data as a non-essential thing. It's just a part of your IT system. We finally realize that data is part of the city instead of part of your city IT system. I think it's a leap frog thinking, at least for me. When it got to that, and you realize that today all the existing IT systems cannot actually really embrace the data. IT system is just to support the people doing the work they used to do. And then you realize we need an infrastructure to really make the value from the data. Just like we have water supply for the city, then you can use the reservoir. Otherwise, the reservoir is useless for the city. I think city brain is just like a water supply system for the data. The city eventually can consume that. We start thinking it's a new infrastructure for the city just like water supply system, just like power grid, just like any way system. That's how we're thinking about it. This is the first thing. The reason we got to the traffic system is this is the problem every city has around the world. From my yesterday's presentation, I just joked about we build two roads for the city, which is too many. I was thinking a lot of people realize it. That's why Boston had the project. They want to get all the roads under the surface. Under surface. But it's still a road. It's still expensive. You know how much money they spend just to move all the roads. >> The big dig, I remember, that was the-- >> Yes, that's a big dig. I don't think that's, that's good for the transportation system, but I don't think that's the number one way for the growth of the city. I think probably most of the city don't have the money to do that. What the data city brain wants to do whether we can take the resource of data and we can optimize every aspect of the city so we can use less resource to support city growth. When we start with the traffic, it's just to make sure, you know that when we use the data to optimize the traffic lights, the idea behind that actually we use the data to optimize the time. How to just read the time. It's not just lights. And then if you're thinking, when we show the eventually, if you have enough data, then we can have less roads in the city but still got the same. >> So the Internet of Things is the hottest trend. 0bviously machine learning and artificial intelligence are part of that, and the cloud powers this new edge of the network, and the data has to flow. So the question that a lot of technologists who are architecting these solutions ask is how do you make the data go at a very low latency? That takes compute power. That takes a lot of technology. How does Alibaba Cloud think about the architecture? Obviously you have a strategic partner like Intel, Obviously with a lot of compute power. You got to think differently around making the data move. If it's like water, it needs to flow. So real time is really important, but self-driving cars, real time is down to the millisecond, nanosecond. How do you think about that as a technologist? >> I think the, if you go back to the Internet of things, I think it's still the Internet. I would say eventually, if you're thinking about the word cloud computing and people use edge computing and people talking about Internet of things. For me, it's just the computing of the Internet. Cloud computing is the computing of the Internet and edge computing is computing on the Internet. Even the IoT is the computing of the Internet. If you're talking about the data, I think eventually it's really about the data on the Internet. It's not data on the sensor. It's not data on the cloud. Basically it's data on the Internet. I would expect eventually the Internet infrastructure will be improved significantly. It's not an improved cloud. It's not improved edge computing. Or it's improvement of the IoT. But it's really, >> Together. >> it's together. >> So Intel, I was covering them, Mobile World Congress earlier in the year. And obviously five G. You need the mobile overlay, that's super important. You also have the end-to-end inside the cloud. Obviously Intel is a strategic partner. Can you talk about the relationship you have with Intel? And also your philosophy, technically speaking, with the ecosystem? Because it's not just Intel, it's everybody. There's a lot of people here at this event. American companies as well as international companies who are now going to be part of your ecosystem. >> Actually the, we certainly have a very good relationship with Intel. I think we share in some sense the same vision. I think that the number one thing is really about people learning about how important the computing is. For me, the Intel is not that, a chip selling company. Intel is really the provider of computing power. That's what I understand. And we can expect eventually the whole ecosystem is really about who is going to provide the computing power. Who is going to provide the infrastructure to make the data? Instead of just equipment supply, eventually the need for computing, and the need for data, will be the challenge for every company, including Alibaba Cloud. We are not, we are not immune from these challenges. We will feel the same challenge. What we want to do is really make sure that with all these partners, provide enough computing for the next 10 or 20 years. We want to make sure that there's enough data flow for the next 10 years. In that sense, it's not the traditional ecosystem as like you do this and you do that. It's basically how we can work together to really make sure we have the challenge for the data and computing in the next 10 years. >> Yesterday we covered the news that you guys announced 15, building and R&D over the next three years, which is a lot of money. Also it has a very international and global view. Academics with younger folks. Alibaba Cloud is going to be a part of that, I'm assuming. I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see that intersecting. But the question for you is the cloud world today is moving at very, very fast speed. We're seeing Amazon, for instance, has been the best in terms of new announcements every year. Not one or two, like a ton of announcements, a lot. How are you guys going to continue to keep the pace? To move faster because the city brain is a great project, but it's going to have more evolution. It's going to move fast. How are you guys keeping up with the pace? >> I think the only way, that's not just for the next 10 years. Actually when I started Alibaba Cloud, we take the same philosophy. Actually the user moves very fast than us. If you look at the users in China they move very fast probably than anywhere else around the world. If you use the city brain project, I would say city brain project is basically tell the people, we need the computing power more than any other task. You really can see that. People want you. If you can't satisfy their demand, then somebody else is going to do that. It's not something we want to move fast but >> You have to move fast. >> You have to move fast. That's why the China is special. I want to say China is not just a place for the market. China is the place that pushes you to move faster. That's more important than market size. >> You mentioned data technology and information technology kind of transferring to a new world. Software is also a big part of it. Software you have to compute, obviously with Intel and the relationships you have. But software is growing exponentially. Certainly in open source, we see Cloud Native Foundation here. They'll probably have Linux foundation. Open source is going to grow exponentially. Most of the code will be shipping. But you have more data growing exponentially. Software is eating the world, but data is eating software. That means data is greater than software. If you look at it that way, that's super important. As the new architects, you and I were just talking about how we've in the industry for a while. You certainly have an amazing career from Microsoft now at Alibaba. A new generation of architects and developers are going to create new innovations around this dynamic of data. What's your advice and how do you view that if you are 21 years old again right now and you were going to jump into studies and academic and or field. It's a whole new world. >> I think there's probably two suggestions. Not necessarily for the young generation, but I would say it's just a suggestion for the young generation to push that habit. The first thing you mentioned about the data eats software. Well, I would put it in a different perspective. I would say for the last generation, the last two or three generations, I would say the computer era, we are really talking about the computer software. That's pretty much in everything. For this generation, I would say we are talking about computing plus the data. That box is not important, but the computing power is more important. For the computing era, the box is important. >> There's no box. It's the world, it's the cloud. >> That's one thing. The implication for this, I want the young generation to push is, then we need the new infrastructure. Thinking about the build as a great vision, got to have the computer in every home. That's infrastructure. Today when you are in the computing process data era, the infrastructure is not there. I think the vision for the Alibaba Cloud is make sure that we have this infrastructure for the next 10 or 20 years so the young generation can take advantage of that and to do that innovation and inventions, just like computing in every home. >> That's very important. I think that also speaks to businesses, how enterprises, I remember my first start up, I had to buy all this equipment and put it into the telephone closet. Now, start ups and small businesses don't need IT departments. This has been a big growth area certainly for Alibaba Cloud. But now all businesses might have a small closet, not a big data center. This is going to change the nature of business. So work and play are coming together. This speaks to the Museum of Inspiration theme here where you can have work and play kind of integrate but yet still be separate in that analog digital world. What's your vision on this new dimension of everything doesn't have to be just digital? You can have an analog life and mix it with digital. >> Actually I was always sad. It's not, the world never has just one side. It always has two sides. The difference is which side is important at a particular time. Just like when people talk about digital and analog, the analog will exist forever. It's hard for you to kill. The question is whether you can find the most beauty from the digital at the same time you can most beautiful part of the analog. I would say that the people, just like when talking about software, people still loved the hardware. And people still loved the touch. The digital has to make sure it looks good. Will it work versus it looks good? I would say we want to make sure people live in a world with two sides, instead of just giving them one side of the world. >> You mentioned people still love hardware. I always say, a car drives but there's still an engine, and people like to understand the engine. There's a maker culture in the United States that's been growing over the past two decades. And now even more accelerated is the maker culture because of the edge and how technology has become part of the fabric of life. How do you see that maker culture being enabled by more cloud services? Because anyone can make a skateboard or motorcycle or a computer or a device now. Powering that with the cloud is an opportunity. How do you view that? >> I would say that eventually, if we have the broad definition of a cloud, I would say eventually, everything the maker makes will be part of the cloud. When talking about clouds, we're really talking about Internet, so every hardware, every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. I would say, if you look at the evolution of the Internet, Internet, it's just a backbone at the very beginning. Actually the first revolution the Internet made is really to make sure that every piece of software is a part of Internet. That's how we got the world wide web. I would say when talking about the maker culture, I would say eventually that every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. So Internet won't be complete without the hardware. In that sense, the cloud is a really essential part of that. >> There's some really interesting things happening here in China that I'm excited about. One of them is the nature of the user base and how close you guys are to that. In the US a similar scale but it's kind of spread over a bunch of other cloud providers. But the interesting phenomenon as data grows exponentially, as software grows exponentially in open source, things are becoming more decentralized. Without talking about the whole initial coin offerings, I know China has banned it and Russia's going to ban it. Other countries are putting a clamp down on crypto currency. Putting that aside, there's still blockchain as a potential disruptive enabler. You're seeing decentralization becoming a new architecture dynamic because you have to support the growth of these devices at the edge. Distributive computing has been around for a while, but now a decentralized architecture dynamic exists. How do you steer that technology direction? >> You have to separate from the the distributive architecture versus its physical location. I would say I like the blockchain idea very much. I think eventually it would be part of the Internet. It's not just something that sits on top of the Internet. It would be very fundamental, just like TCP and IP. This is low level, so this would be part of the Internet instead of standing on top of the Internet. Eventually, in that sense, Internet would be very distributed. By thinking that it's nothing, there's no decentralization exists. You still need, even though physically, it's in one place. >> It's almost decentralized, not 100 percent. >> Yeah, yeah. Obviously this would be different. Without Internet, without new software, that basically, just like PC. PC is really in a single box, and we use all software in a box. We distribute architecture. We could have decentralized, but everything actually is distributed. You still cannot trace that. You put like a meeting. A service in a data center. It's actually distributed over this one meeting service. In that sense, it's completely distributed. >> That server list too is a big trend where if you talk about the edge of the network, you got to move compute to the data sometimes. Or have compute on the edge. So this is going to be continued growth, you see that as well right? >> Yes, but I still think, if you use Silicon as a measure for this computing power, I would say if you can see there's more silicon on the edge, but I would say when we put one silicon on the edge, you probably have to put 100 silicons on the cloud. It's still kind of-- >> It's a relationship. >> It's a relationship, just like our body is very important but the brain consumes the most oxygen. >> It's important what's in the cloud then. You got to have the computing, have those ratios. It depends on the architecture. >> Yes, yes. >> Final question for you is as the folks in Silicon Valley, where we're based, and Palo Alto want to know is Alibaba, what it means to them? If you have a chance to say a few things about what Alibaba Cloud is to America, what would you like to say? >> I would say that actually they would just put the cloud computing aside. Just look at what it really means behind that. I think the cloud, we do have an understanding of what the cloud computing really means. At the very beginning actually, I wouldn't call the company a cloud computing company. I would call it a general computing company. It's really a fraction of what's thinking in China. Again, my comment is not just to view China as the market to sell your product. To view China as the place to inspire having a new product. >> And it's a global world now, the world is flat. >> Yes, just like United States, it's not, it's a place inspired. All the people around the world together to have a new idea. I think the people in China just love new things. They love to try new things. It really can shoot your size of your innovation. >> And it's a global collaboration, it's interesting. That phenomenon is going to continue. You've done amazing work here. Congratulations on the Museum of Inspiration and the projects you're working on. Personal question for you. What are you excited about now? We kind of joke about how old we are now, but the young people certainly have a great future ahead of them. But you have a lot of experience and you're steering Alibaba's technology committee across the group as well as being the founder of the cloud. What are you excited about right now, technically speaking? What's the big, or just impact? What's the big wave that you like? >> I think it's very exciting in a couple of things, three things I would say. The first is really about just look at technology itself. Just like when I described my book, it's really, really exciting in your life if you can see the Internet plus the computing and plus data, cause they're together. Just like you have this engine, you have the airplane, a couple of things, they're together wherever. This is a very, very exciting era. This is not just about a technology era. It's an era that all things happen at the same time, so that's very exciting. That's one thing. The second thing as you read about the city around over here, I think the the Alibaba the Hanzo, it's just a very special for Alibaba, but I think it's special for the other company as well. So this place is very special. Just to give you an idea where you are, this area has the most networked river in the past. If you look at the map, it's like Internet. I would say, all the people over here, just their mindset. It's just on an Internet mindset. Even goes back 100, 200 years ago because the river is the only way for them to travel, for the communications-- >> That's the data back then. >> That's exactly my point, see. If you look at the map, so this is very exciting. The other thing about that the Alibaba, for me, the Alibaba you know Alibaba, we have a very broad opinions. You can feel that. From a technology point of view, that basically means it's the place you can touch every aspect of technology. You have a very slight, very-- >> You have a great surface area aperture to look at impact of life. >> So you think about these three things together. It's hard to say the, you better get excited. >> It's a great time to be in technology, isn't it? Entertainment, e-commerce, web services. >> For me, when I work on the city brain project, it's just the beginning of machine learning. A lot of people, they are fighting for like, when people talk about speech recognition, they are fighting for the last one meter for the speech recognition. But if you're talking about city brain, it's the world. The most big AI project. And it's just the beginning. We just start with the one percent. >> It must be a lot of fun. You got a lot of data to work with. You have real life integration. It's super exciting. When are we going to see you in Silicon Valley? >> I appear regularly to Silicon Valley two or three times every year. We'll probably see sometime early next year. >> Thank you very much for the time, appreciate it. >> Thank you for coming to the conference and coming to the museum. >> Thank you very much for your inspiration. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.

this is the cute live from the Moscone Center in San Francisco this is silicon angles continuous coverage a vm world 2010 now inside the cube we're back to continuous coverage of vm world 2010 live I'm John Ferrier from SiliconANGLE we are in the cube the cube is a broad social media broadcast that acquires knowledge and this segment is going to be very fun we have a group of entrepreneurs part of the cloud computing club that I'm proud to say that I was one of the cofounders of with Nate DeMarco and James waters and these guys have been in the trenches from cloud from the beginning and like to introduce to my left is rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias so these guys are entrepreneurs they've been out in the field ton of experience in the business cloud has arrived they were there at the beginning so we're going to share our experiences about why the cloud is so big and relevant and entrepreneurship what are the opportunities for startups because there is a lot of opportunity vmware is putting forth the framework that is going to enable a lot of growth and we heard from todd nielsen that for every dollar of vmware licenses may be about fifteen dollars of ecosystem money so that that's money and the VC panel we had here on Wednesday was talking about huge dollars going into cloud so we're gonna get the reality of kind of what's real some proof points and so the first question will go right down the line will start with rich what is the reality of cloud and just at a high level the entrepreneurial opportunities it's a shift it's big it's relevant is happening right now and we're on the scene here at Moscone well there are two there are two baskets as i see it entrepreneurially you're looking at cloud backward taking what's existing a lot of legacy stuff making it work appropriately making it work the way you'd like it to work in a cloud getting all the benefits then huge entrepreneurial opportunities cloud forward building new apps green field all things web web app looking at this as a you know doing new things not trying to repeat the old and if you drop them into those two categories Enterprise is paying first for the legacy but where the the real fun is and where the entrepreneurs really start to kind of converge is on the cloud forward stuff cloud for a great message good angle there Bernard what's your angle on this well we we see a lot going on in apps I was in a breakfast this morning basically the whole message the whole theme was apps kind of driving everything which is interesting because kind of change from a lot of IT organizations traditionally been very infrastructure focused so a lot of stuff around apps and stuff that helps apps the other thing that came out of that breakfast was a lot about cloud management how do you manage these environments how do you manage a lot of discussion about end-to-end management instead of siloed management for sure there's great opportunity there I don't know how to solve the problem with this great opportunity around that Randy you're Randy you got a growing business right now you started as an entrepreneur and you grew a business you're growing like crazy you're at you're on the doorstep of all the cloud scaling cloud scaling calm is your organization talk about your experience and what you see going forward vast majority the wisdom transition look at our engagements were basically they're really looking at ways to generate I think sort of continued consolidation business so the ecosystem is growing there's a lot of people out there in the trenches deploying as vmware change with this vm world this week I mean what's different and what are you guys seeing from your customers and prospective customers in the environment out there and what are the key issues holding things back or what are the key issues that are going to accelerate real cloud deployments and and and cloud service providers are part of this show too and that's a new dynamic we're seeing well one of the things that's pretty obvious about this show and kind of you could almost draw a bright line over the course of the last year or 18 months is that now we're no longer talking as much about infrastructure getting that right whether it's in the public cloud or in the enterprise today we're talking about platform and not so much platform as a service but here what you're looking at is the constructor construction kits the piece parts by which you start putting together platforms and then specific software applications that are cloud oriented this show and both the influence of spring vfabric all of that the cloud the director all of that starting to look at moving up the food chain much more about platform much more about the construction of applications on a scale of one to ten rich real deal ten being real deal with the spring source framework or zero non-starter spring oh that it's already in the bag it's it is done deal this is a real deal what we have here is the beginnings of truly platforms whether they're built inside the the enterprise or platforms as a service the construction kits for real applications absolutely Bernard hyper Stratus you're out talking to customers all the time and they got challenges said walk through some of your experiences with your clients and the marketplace well what I'll say is that what we hear about a lot what we work on a lot is security a lot of companies saying how do I secure my app particularly in a public cloud environment what do we do around that something that's a kind of a second order is we get called in a lot with companies say I put my app application up in a public cloud and the magic supposed to be that's scalable how come my apps not scaling and then we end up doing a lot of architecture re working so I think architecture is a big deal this is a if you want to take advantage of cloud computing characteristics your application must be ready to do that so I think that's that's the true drill down on the architecture thing that's not scaling thing just expand on that a little bit well what are the issues there well you know the vision is somehow automatically load goes up and the application star spawns at extra resources extra instances in the past the way that happened was you maybe had to provision hardware and then admin had to sort of go in and reconfigure everything the application that we brought down brought back up if you want to move that from a hands-on thing to an auto magically kind of thing your application has to be written such that it can gracefully add and subtract resources you have to have a management framework that supports that and you know those are new kinds of things basically because the old model was very static very hands-on so those kinds of challenges or concerns that we run into a lot Randy you're getting your hands dirty out there are you stitching all these things together and and you got a lot of successes talk about your experiences and you know things you've learned that were surprises and things that were not surprises and and challenge is going to going forward optimization the true pioneers in cloud computing their folks like Amazon and Google and what they have really pioneered is operating in massive scale I mean movie from enterprise computing cloud computing is like moving from the assembly line mechanism for manufacturing cars to the robotics factory mechanism for manufacturing cars it's very very different if you actually look in Amazon at Amazon's operations team there's two core components infrastructure engineering which writes software that automates hardware and data center operations which changes out the hardware and there's nobody in between just like in a robotics factory for cars you have people who design the robotics in the factory and you have the people who do QA on the line and meet and do maintenance on the robots and there's really nobody in between and so that when you go and you look at these guys and what that means and you talk about scalability like Bernards talking about you'll notice that somebody like Google has a huge number of sort of horizontal services something like Google FS or big table and MapReduce which are sort of these horizontal services across the entire data center that every single application leverages and that's how a single application for google is able to get skill but when you look into an enterprise data center every single application is its own silo sometimes all the way through it down through the network in the storage and that's why that's part of the reason why it's difficult to scale there are also application architectural constraints of course which and you know somebody like Bernard can help you out with but you know the fundamental way that you're actually designing the data center and how you provide horizontal services it was also what's going to enable true platform as a service to work on top of any infrastructure as a service so if you if you kind of ignore one to the detriment together if you don't build the infrastructure as a service right with those horizontal service layers then you can't really do the rest of the job we had we had the cube down in orlando for SI p event we had the cio of levi strauss tom peck on and one of the things that came out of that conversation randy was busting down the silos and he absolutely saying you know from his organization sample he wants to bus down those silos what can you share I mean you're in there you're busting down silos with your team what's what's the team configuration like what's the dynamic and just what are some of the conversations that you have I mean people like hey we love you and all sudden we can't do that I mean we've talked at the cloud clubs about yeah some of the politics and is it just riff on that a little bit it's gonna be scary you sure you want me to go there yeah go ahead we bring it out on the cube in our most successful engagements we basically sidelined the CIO and his entire stack because they wanted to do Enterprise competing with a cloud label on top of it instead of real cloud computing and they were obstructionist and they did not know how to decide eyes themselves I mean if you think about it Enterprise IT has a centralized department has has effectively been a monopoly inside of that each of those enterprises for 30 years and they do not understand how to fix their own Monopoly and the only way that you break down a monopoly is through competition and through funding those successful competitors that's part of why you see salesforce com being so successful marketplace their core competition for the longest time was internal implementations a CRM and so if you really want to build the real deal cloud today you've either got to have a CIO who's a visionary and is willing to make significant dramatic changes to the organization or you have to sideline the CIO and a stack and you actually have to go rogue and you have to build out a whole separate cloud division build out true cloud computing there and then somehow roll that back in or roll IT under it at a later date how do entrepreneurs out there learn from that so what would you share aussie sideline the CIO is always kind of a robe it's not a real long term strategy but you know you want to get the CIO there but what you're basically saying is is that CIOs are doing it because they're bunder pressure CFO cio is under pressure and the saying you just do cloud and they want to go cloud but the monopoly if you will kind of like an old mainframe mindset is pushing back and what they'll do is they'll throw some cloud out there and call it cloud right is that what you saying and they're not really doing real clout is that what you're saying I'm saying that just running just providing virtual servers on demand is not a cloud and if you look at the bar that in Amazon or Google or the pioneers in cloud or set it's about very low friction self-service IT capabilities which can only be delivered through automation and you know i'll tell you a brief story about a colleague of mine who's now at VMware and I want to mention name he was at credit suisse they built one of the first real deal clouds there five years ago and as soon as they had it up as saucers portal in UI and API and everything soon as they brought it up they put in a ticket wall because the IT support staff felt threatened that people could turn on their own servers and they didn't want them to so they said fill out a ticket and then we'll use your password and you hurt me and your credentials to turn on a server for you so that that's the sort of mindset facade was needed to keep the heat shield almost from the attacks right from the sabotage that was yet it's not so much sabotage it's you know any organization that builds up is going to send out the antibodies when ever you put something really distinctive and new in it and to Randy's point and actually to Barnard's about architecture if you try to take the way things have been built up until now and just drop them into a set of virtualized servers and say that's cloud it isn't it's basically taking a and creating a virtual version of your old data center that's not going to get you where you want to go okay so so play out how you think it's going to go down you guys think it's gonna be organically bottom-up or top down or both I mean how is this goes like client-server kind of evolved that way you know some pcs were hanging around lands came around so is it going to be a slow roll can or Big Bang I was a very interesting I heard a guy from Forrester this morning talked and he said and if you might know Forrester came out with a report not too long ago that was something like building your own private cloud it's a pipe dream or is it like it's much harder than you might expect and the interesting stat that he came out with was if you ask enterprise developers something like twenty five percent of them are doing cloud-based stuff typically an Amazon if you go to the infrastructure group something like six percent of them say oh yeah we're doing something around cloud and that told me two things one there's a lot of stuff going on that is stealthy or semi stealthy and the second is there's a big bow wave of stuff that's being done up in some public provider that's going to somehow go into production and I don't that going to go in production that public provider or if eventually the development team is going to come back to the ops team and say I've got a gift for you I'd like you to start running it and by the way it's designed as a cloud its architects as a cloud and you need to have the infrastructure to support them so it's ready you open the open the president I happen to have a cloud right here is that way well so it's a very part of me that was a very interesting set of stats because that implies there's a lot of impending change kept going coming down the road toward internal IT groups well we've talked about bursting out you know taking the enterprise and bursting out to the cloud a lot of the app development a lot of the the pre-production versions of these apps exist in the cloud and what's going to happen is as soon as you open the door and people are feeling safe enough it's going to be inbound not bursting out it's going to be bursting in Randy one of the one of the things I'm hearing is that data security is the number one issue around cloud can you talk a little bit about that from your experience so I is that true or is it not true I think it's a little overblown I mean security is definitely a concern I mean it would be you would be foolish not to be concerned about it but I think you are going to take the same steps you would if you are going to use now its source data center facility managed hosting I mean it's not there I think one of the things that's really humorous about this is people get really worried about the hypervisor when the hypervisors are relatively proven relatively secure technology but then they ignore things like vlans which are completely unauthenticated and everybody assumes are secure but in actually a cloud environment they're far less secure so there's there's a weird disconnect between what is a real security issue in the cloud and what people's concerns are because they don't understand the underlying technologies or structure so much and then when you look at some of the folks who are building certain offerings there are kind of on demand private cloud offerings that people are working on we're not going to share your server and pretty much all those issues go away and so it's just it's really it it's not some things have changed most of remain the same if you if you take your scent your same kinds of what that you go about enforcing security today behind the firewall and bring them out to the cloud they mostly translate actually and not to confuse the issue you've got security and then you've got the pragmatic issues of compliance most of these people most of these organizations live under a cloud you'll pardon the expression which is their requirement to be compliant with various kinds of regulation whether it's defined by the industry by the enterprise regulatory and being compliant means hitting the checklist those checklists have been built on the back of last generations architectures last generations technologies how do you determine whether a cloud implementation of a production app is compliant these guys are very conservative if there's any risk of not meeting compliance well that's a big message out your way that was a big message here for VMware in this hybrid cloud was that compliance is was one of the things that they were wrapping around that I mean is that a real deal is that going to be good is that going to be no thank you i think compliance has to change not so much the technology i mean really what do we think is is valid and all of these aspects of compliance have got to be revisited so I was doing security before a lot of the regulations went in for compliance and in the early days kind of mid 90s and the focus was around actually building secure systems and there's a certain amount of best practices that came out of that and then those were codified into a lot of the regulations and those those codifications of those best practices are about 10 or 15 years old a lot of the time and so the way that they don't translate to the cloud is if you just take them you know peace if you just say look we have to have a perimeter firewall you're on a cloud where are you going to put your perimeter firewall right no parameter right but you know should you have host-based firewall should you have an intrusion detection yet all of that trans the problem is is that you have to you know we've been moving away from a perimeter eyes dworld for 15-plus years but you still see a lot of organization security organizations that don't know how to provide real deal security you know clinging to what's easiest as opposed to trying to figure out what is real security how does that mesh with the compliance requirements they have and coming up with a strategy then that melds those two and most of those strategies will actually translate directly to the cloud because it's about bringing the security closer to the data absolutely one of the things that's happening here guys is cloud service providers are very visible in the announcements and it's-- changing and that IT can provide the kinds of services that cloud service providers can provide and dave vellante Wikibon and i were talking about well that might not be true that cloud surprise will always stay at a bit of head we had verizon on yesterday talking about some of their things is the cloud service provider model going to be a head of IT and will that be the security compliance component of IT how do you guys see the whole cloud service provider evolving all the above observations predictions it to believe that somebody like Verizon is at the leading edge of winning God services is but I don't want to dig on them too much but it is it makes sense if you if you actually look at the leader that's amazon and in 2009 amazon had 43 major releases for per month who can keep up with that pace right Google Yahoo maybe Microsoft but certainly not any of the major telcos service riders are not geared up to be software development or featured delivery shops and the same can be said of most IT department so you look at any of these projects as being you know two to three-year kinds of engagements that you know they're going to do six to nine months of due diligence on in our engagement and with the largest telco in Korea one of the largest in asia pac we stood up their private cloud in eight weeks eight weeks soup to nuts so so what's the prediction on the viability and position of the product the answers providers they you guys have to get in the game they've got they've got to build out more capabilities and they've got to stop worrying about the virtualization piece which is trivial and start thinking about the portfolio services that run on top of that platform is a surface ice cream mobile device offerings integration to 3g and wireless systems enabling new mobile apps social media apps they've really got to think about how what's the new set of cloud applications that's driving Amazon to 80,000 servers and more than half a million VMs in four years time what is that I mean the enterprise is not adopting right now these guys are going to get in the game by actually going to where the fire is not where the smoke is and then they better actually build you know cloud class systems in the same way that Amazon or Google does and they've got have ecosystem of services that actually allows them to be competitive on a portfolio basis not on a virtual machine-based right and they'll probably really about that do you rain I don't feel strongly about it they'll they'll distinguish themselves on the basis of either markets they serve geographic markets industries or the collections of added value features that they lend us realized it okay final question to wrap up guys because I look at the clock a little bit long what is the outlook of cloud and just give your perspective you know just from your entrepreneurial position and also as a practitioner as a guru all of you guys are there in the trenches you're building businesses you're getting stuff done just share in your mind what this future will unroll to look like I mean will it really be game-changing what are some of the things that you may see which is a vision well if it already is a game change what the focus is right now for the next few years it's going to be all mm ops and apps I mean its operations making the management of the infrastructure work correctly and building the next generation but the cloud forward apps full stop Bernard where do you go from that I'm well or your perspective I mean you're there you're the thing that I that you know is there's no question my mind in five years or ten years we will look back on the way I T has been done with this kind of very manual very long time the way we look back on you know when you see a movie you see somebody hand crank in a car let's go absolutely no yeah that was quaint and that was good but there's a reason why we don't do it anyway dialing a phone and we're dialing a phone and so I for sure there's no question there's gonna be a lot of pain between now and your ex and that pain is going to be localized in two different groups but for sure this is this is the way I t's gonna be done in the future no question about that that this is the biggest disruption that there's been to the IT industry in 30 years and it will be a 20 year transition and if you look at how many mainframe companies are still standing in the same way that they were standing before you that just tells you the amount of opportunity there it is huge there are all kinds of ways for you to figure out parts of this this equation solutions for different parts of the problems here which are enormous is Bernard and rich can tell you I mean there's just a huge number of problems to solve here there's all kinds of clever ways that you can get in the game and you can be involved you could be part of the disruption rather than be part of the disrupted and that would be my key message disrupt don't be disrupted 30 years for disruption 20 years of growth will be covering it on cloud angle calm and SiliconANGLE com thanks guys so much rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias in the trenches true entrepreneurs been there done that from the beginning and now going to ride the wave so good luck with everything and we'll check back in with you thank you so much thanks John

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Special coverage sponsored by A. W s Global Partner Network. Hello. And welcome back to the cubes Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. It's virtual this year. Normally, were there in person doing the interviews, getting the signal from the noise. I'm John for your host. And where the cube virtual Got a great guest here. Aidan McDonald, Program manager, Justice through code the center of justice at the Columbia University. Um, this is a great story, Aiden. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate you taking the time to join me. >>Thanks so much for having me, John. >>So first of all talk about the mission of justice through code. This is such an awesome program. It really is impactful. It's one of those examples where, you know, people want to change the world. This is one. You can actually do it. And with code, take us through the mission. >>Yeah, So I think to understand the mission here, you have to understand a little bit about the problem, right? So the United States has, uh, 5% of the world's population, 25% of the global prison population. When people come home from prison, they're confronted with the reality that it's just very difficult to find jobs right. We have unemployment rates that are stratospherically higher than for the general population. And so, at the core of what we're doing in our mission is really to provide a pathway to career track employment for formerly incarcerated individuals to help support them and their families, and also to begin to change the negative stereotypes that air attached to the formerly incarcerated. >>It's an upwardly mobile mindset growth mindset. Also, there's new skills, always hard to do that, given the environmental conditions, what skills are you guys delivering? Take us through how it works. Give us a feel for kind of the skill sets and what gets what happens. >>Yeah, so we focused the program kind of in two distinct ways. So we have the technical skills aspect of the curriculum and the interpersonal skills. So as far as the technical skills go, we teach a version of a course that's taught to current Columbia MBA students eso that is set up. We teach the fundamentals of programming python, what we call phase one of the program. Then we move on to a P I S and data analysis. And then from there we do a Capstone software project. And for that project, groups of two or more students come together. Really? They conceptualize the design on day execute on building this project. And during that phase, of course, we actually pair students with mentors who are season software engineers from many of the top tech companies in the US and then in terms of the story in terms of the interpersonal skills, um, you know, we really focus on the skills that are necessary to success in the tech workforce s Oh, this is, you know, resumes, cover letters, interviewing skills and also really understanding that for many of our students, they don't have the networks that so maney people are fortunate enough to have that have gone through a traditional educational pathways. We bring in guest speakers from different corporations. Um, and, you know, having the students were quick mentors there really able to start to build that network to support themselves in their career transition when they complete the program. >>You know what's really amazing about what you're doing is and this really is so timing. The timing is perfect. Um, is that with the cloud and the tech scene, where we're at now is you don't you can come out. You can level up pretty quickly with things. In other words, you know, you could have someone go to an Ivy League school and be all the pedigree, and it doesn't matter because the skills now are different. You literally could be a surfing and be a couch potato surfing TV and get online and get an Amazon degree and through educate and and come out, make six figures. I mean, so there is definitely a path here. It's not like it's a slog. It's not like it's a huge leap, so the timing is perfect. We're seeing that across the board. There's more empty jobs, opening cybersecurity, cloud computing administration and with land in all these cool services, it's just gonna get easier. We hear that we see that clearly. What are some of the examples can you share of the graduates? What have they gone on to do? You mentioned some of the big tech companies. Take us through that that tipping point when the success kicks in. >>What s so you know, as I mentioned, one of the really integral parts of our program is this mentorship, right? So students finished the program. They often continue to work on their final projects, um, in conjunction with their mentors and then really focused during that time period on developing the skill sets that they'll need to have entering into junior level software development roles a tech companies For some of our students, this means, um, they've actually found out through the course of the class that they prefer front end web development, and they start working on JavaScript and full stack. And a few of our students have gone on to work it a or enter into apprenticeships that major tech companies, um, in those roles. And then we also have students who are focused on continuing in their development of their technical skill set with Python s. So we have some students who have actually entered into the Columbia University I t department on a big project. They're working on other students that have worked with freelance Web development agencies and projects really have a very diverse, talented group of students. And so from that we see that Everybody has different interests and definitely no one specific pathway but many successful pathways. >>How is Amazon Web services helping you guys? They contributing? They're giving you credits. What's their role here? >>Yeah, so they've provided kind of their expertise and support to the program. Just really excited to be collaborating with them on really looking at, How do we take this program to scale? Right. So we know that this is a problem that affect so many Americans, right? There's 77 million Americans currently with a criminal record. And so, um, you know, with the barriers to employment that come from having been incarcerated, I came to this work because I spent four years incarcerated for my own involvement in the marijuana industry in California Prior toe legalization. And so, you know, I saw a kind of these challenges, right? Firsthand of what it's like to try to get a job. And so, you know, we're just very invested in collaborating with AWS again. Thio bring this program to scale so we can really help uplift the communities that have been impacted by mass incarceration. >>It's interesting you talk about your personal experience, talk about this stigma that comes with that and how this breaks through that stigma. And this is really not only is a self esteem issues up this Israel, you could make more money. You have a career and literally the difference between going down or up is huge. Talk about the stigma and how this program changes the lives of the individual. >>Yeah, I think one important thing Thio consider hearing before understanding is this statement right? Is that unemployment or employment should say is the number one predictor of recidivism. Right? So we see that for people that have really jobs, they don't go back to prison on DSO. You know, we're just so invested in working on that and in terms of the stigma, uh, you know, it's just so prevalent, right? I can think through myself. Before I had going thio to prison, I had started to businesses. I was actually accepted. Thio go to Columbia University when I got out and I would apply the landscaping jobs, couldn't get to the final round, and the job offer would be rescinded, right? I mean, just this automatic sense of this person is not to be trusted because they have a history of incarceration. And so what we're really working on doing with our students is first redefining what people think it's possible, right? I saw this myself coming home from prison. The constant messaging is your life is over. You're never going to accomplish anything of meaning and so just kind of accept your lot on DSO. At first, we really focus on that with students in terms of sharing stories of success. Other people that we know that have taken this pathway on been really looking at providing leadership development. So when our students do enter into these companies, they're really able to service leaders and for people to understand that while you may have these assumptions because of depictions of people that have been incarcerated in the media, the end of they formerly incarcerated people, our brothers, sisters, family members and really deserve a chance in life. >>Yeah, And I got to say, you know, as someone who loves technology and been, uh, computer science when his early days, you know, there was a ladder, you have to have a requisite level now. I mean, you literally could be six weeks in and be fluent on Cloud Computing Administration as three bucket configurations. I mean, there are so many things that so many opportunities if you have some intelligence and some drive you're in, I mean, it's just Z pretty right? It's right there. It's great. It's attainable. It's not a fantasy, it's it's doable. And programs like yours are awesome. My hat's off to you for doing that. Thanks for sharing. >>Definitely. Thank you so much for having me >>final question before we go, How does people get involved? Can you share a minute? Give a plug for what you guys are doing? How do I get involved? How do I give support? Take a minute to >>get? Definitely. I mean, I think at the core like the most important thing that anybody can dio right is to look within the organizations that they work and work at and find out what your fair chance hiring practices are and see if if there's an opportunity to hire our students or other formerly incarcerated students. E think it also were very engaged, as I mentioned in our mentorship program s so people can confined US center for Justice that, uh, Colombia dot e d u on board, you know reach out, tow us about the mentorship program and really begin toe talk about this and share the stories of those who have succeeded and provide support Thio other people that will be returning home. >>All right. And thank you very much. Just a fur coat. Check it out. Columbia University 18 McDonald, Program manager. Thanks for joining us. I'm John for here in the Cube Cube Coverage Cube. Virtual coverage of reinvent 2020. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Yeah. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. It's virtual this year. Normally, were there in person doing the interviews, getting the signal from the noise. I'm Sean for your host. And where the cube virtual Got a great guest here. Aidan McDonald, Program manager, Justice through code, the center of justice at the Columbia University. Um, this is a great story, Aiden. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate you taking the time to join me. >>Thanks so much for having me, John. >>So first of all, talk about the mission of justice through code. This is such an awesome program. It really is impactful. It's one of those examples where, you know, people want to change the world. This is one. You can actually do it. And with code, take us through the mission. >>Yeah, so I think to understand the mission here, you have to understand a little bit about the problem, right? So the United States has 5% of the world's population, 25% of the global prison population when people come home from prison, they're confronted with the reality that it's just very difficult to find jobs right. We have unemployment rates that are stratospherically higher than for the general population. And so, at the core of what we're doing in our mission is really to provide a pathway to career track employment for formerly incarcerated individuals to help support them and their families, and also to begin to change the negative stereotypes that air attached to the formerly incarcerated. >>It's an upwardly mobile mindset growth mindset. Also, there's new skills always hard to do that right. Given the environmental conditions. What skills are you guys delivering? Take us through how it works. Give us a feel for kind of the skill sets and what gets what happens. >>Yeah, so we focused the program kind of in two distinct ways. So we have the technical skills aspect of the curriculum and the interpersonal skills. Soas faras. The technical skills go. We teach a version of a course that's taught to current Columbia MBA students eso that is set up. We teach the fundamentals of programming python in what we call phase one of the program. Then we move on to a P I s and data analysis. And then from there we do a Capstone software project. And for that project, groups of two or more students come together. Really? They conceptualize the design on day execute on building this project. And during that phase, of course, we actually pair students with mentors who are season software engineers from many of the top tech companies in the US And then in terms of the story in terms of the interpersonal skills, um, you know, we really focus on the skills that are necessary to success in the tech workforce s Oh, this is, you know, resumes, cover letters, interviewing skills and also really understanding that for many of our students, they don't have the networks that so maney people are fortunate enough to have that have gone through a traditional educational pathway. So we bring in guest speakers from different corporations. Um, and you know, having the students work with mentors there really able to start to build that network to support themselves in their career transition when they complete the program. >>You know what's really amazing about what you're doing is, and this really is so timing The timing is perfect. Um, is that with the cloud and the tech scene, where we're at now is you don't you can come out. You can level up pretty quickly with things. In other words, you know, you could have someone go to an Ivy League school and be all the pedigree, and it doesn't matter because the skills now are different. You literally could be a surfing and be a couch potato surfing TV and get online and get an Amazon degree and through educate and and come out, make six figures. I mean, so there is definitely a path here. It's not like it's a slog. It's not like it's a huge leap, so the timing is perfect. We're seeing that across the board. There's more empty jobs, opening cybersecurity, cloud computing administration, and with land in all these cool services, it's just gonna get easier. We hear that we see that clearly. What are some of the examples can you share of the graduates? What have they gone on to do? You mentioned some of the big tech companies take us through that, that tipping point when the success kicks in? >>Yeah, so you know, as I mentioned one of the really integral parts of our program. Is this mentorship? Right? So students finished the program. They often continue to work on their final projects, um, in conjunction with their mentors and then really focused during that time period on developing the skill sets that they'll need to have entering into junior level software development roles a tech companies For some of our students, this means, um, they've actually found out through the course of the class that they prefer front end web development and they start working on JavaScript and full stack. And a few of our students have gone on to work it a or enter into apprenticeships that major tech companies, um, in those roles. And then we also have students who are focused on continuing in their development of their technical skill set with Python s. So we have some students who have actually entered into the Columbia University I T department on a big project. They're working on other students that have worked with freelance Web development agencies and projects, um, really have a very diverse, talented group of students. And so from that we see that everybody has different interests and definitely no one specific pathway, but many successful pathways. >>How is Amazon Web services helping you guys? They contributing? They're giving you credits. What's their role here? >>Yeah, so they've provided kind of their expertise and support to the program. Just really excited to be collaborating with them on really looking at, How do we take this program to scale? Right. So we know that this is a problem that affect so many Americans, right? There's 77 million Americans currently with a criminal record. And so, um, you know, with the barriers to employment that come from having been incarcerated, I came to this work because I spent four years incarcerated for my own involvement in the marijuana industry in California Prior toe legalization. And so, you know, I saw kind of these challenges right firsthand of what it's like to try to get a job. And so, you know, we're just very invested in collaborating with AWS again. Thio bring this program to scale so we can really help uplift the communities that have been impacted by mass incarceration. >>It's interesting you talk about your personal experience, talk about this stigma that comes with that and how this breaks through that stigma and this is really not only is a self esteem issues up this Israel, you could make more money. You have a career and literally the difference between going down or up is huge. Talk about the stigma and how this program changes the lives of the individual. >>Yeah, I think one important thing Thio consider hearing before understanding is this statement, right? Is that, um, unemployment or employment should say is the number one predictor of recidivism. Right. So we see that for people that have really jobs, they don't go back to prison on dso Um you know, we're just so invested in working on that and in terms of the stigma, um, you know, it's just so prevalent, right? I could think through myself. Before I had gone thio to prison, I had started to businesses. I was actually accepted. Thio go to Columbia University when I got out and I would apply the landscaping jobs, couldn't get to the final round, and the job offer would be rescinded, right? I mean, it's just this automatic sense of this person is not to be trusted because they have a history of incarceration And so what we're really working on doing with our students is first redefining what people think it's possible, right? I saw this myself coming home from prison. The constant messaging is your life is over. You're never going to accomplish anything of meaning and so just kind of accept your lot on DSO. At first, we really focus on that with students in terms of sharing stories of success. Other people that we know that have taken this pathway on been really looking at providing leadership development. So when our students do enter into these companies, they're really able to service leaders and for people to understand that while you may have these assumptions because of depictions of people that have been incarcerated in the media, the end of they formerly incarcerated people, our brothers, sisters, family members and really deserve a chance in life. >>Yeah, And I got to say, you know, as someone who loves technology and been, uh, computer science when his early days, you know, there was a ladder, you have to have a requisite level now. I mean, you literally could be six weeks in and be fluent on Cloud Computing Administration as three bucket configurations. I mean, there are so many things that so many opportunities if you have some intelligence and some drive you're in, I mean, it's just Z pretty right? It's right there. It's great. It's attainable. It's not a fantasy, it's it's doable. And programs like yours are awesome. My hat's off to you for doing that. Thanks for sharing. >>Definitely. Thank you so much for having me >>final question Before we go, How does people get involved? Can you share a minute? Give a plug for what you guys are doing? How do I get involved? How do I give support? Take a minute to >>get? Definitely. I mean, I think at the core like the most important thing that anybody can dio right is to look within the organizations that they work and work at and find out what your fair chance hiring practices are and see if if there's an opportunity to hire our students or other formerly incarcerated students. E think also were very engaged, as I mentioned in our mentorship program s so people can confined US center for Justice that, um, Colombia dot e d u on bond, you know, reach out, tow us about the mentorship program and really begin toe talk about this and share the stories of those who have succeeded and provide support Thio other people that will be returning home. >>All right. And thank you very much. Just a fur coat. Check it out. Columbia University 18 McDonald, Program manager. Thanks for joining us. I'm John for here in the Cube Cube Coverage Cube. Virtual coverage of reinvent 2020. Thanks for watching.

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the cubes coverage here at in San Francisco, the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm job for your host. We are the very special guests, the COO of VMware, Sanjay Poonen, cube alumni. When you talk about security, talk about the modern enterprise as it transforms new use cases, new problems emerge. New opportunities exist here to break it down. Sanjay, welcome back. Thank you John. Always a pleasure to be on your show and I think it's my first time at RSA. We've talked a number of times, but nice to see you here. Well, it's a security guard. Well, this is really why I wanted you to talk, talk to you because operations is become now the big conversation around security. So you know, security was once part of it. It comes out and part of the board conversation, but when you look at security, all the conversations that we're seeing that are the most important conversations are almost a business model conversation. >>Almost like if you're the CEO of the company, you've got HR people, HR, organizational behavior, collaboration, technology, stack compliance and risk management. So the threat of cyber has to cut across now multiple operational functions of the business. It's no longer one thing, it's everything. So this is really kind of makes it the pressure of the business owners to be mindful of a bigger picture. And the attack velocity is happening so much faster, more volume of attacks, milliseconds and nanosecond attacks. So this is a huge, huge problem. I need you to break it down for me. >> Good. But then wonderful intro. No, I would say you're absolutely right. First off, security is a boardroom topic. Uh, audit committees are asking, you know, the CIO so often, you know, reports a report directly, sometimes, often not even to the CIO, to the head of legal or finance and often to the audit. >>So it's a boardroom topic then. You're right, every department right now cares about security because they've got both threat and security of nation state, all malicious, organized crime trying to come at them. But they've also got physical security mind. I mean, listen, growing a virus is a serious threat to our physical security. And we're really concerned about employees and the idea of a cyber security and physical security. We've put at VMware, cybersecurity and, and um, um, physical security. One guy, the CIO. So he actually runs vote. So I think you're absolutely right and if you're a head of HR, you care about your employees. If you're care ahead of communications, you care about your reputation and marketing the same way. If you're a finance, you care about your accounting systems and having all of the it systems that are. So we certainly think that holistic approach does, deserves a different approach to security, which is it can't be silo, silo, silo. >>It has to be intrinsic. And I've talked on your show about why intrinsic and how differentiated that intrinsic security, what I talked about this morning in my keynote. >> Well, and then again, the connect the dots there. It's not just security, it's the applications that are being built on mobile. For instance, I've got a mobile app. I have milliseconds, serious bond to whether something's yes or no. That's the app on mobile. But still the security threat is still over here and I've got the app over here. This is now the reality. And again, AirWatch was a big acquisition that you did. I also had some security. Carbon black was a $2 billion acquisition that VMware made. That's a security practice. How's it all coming together? Can you think of any questions? Blame the VMware because it's not just security, it's what's around it. >> Yeah. I think we began to see over the course of the last several years that there were certain control points and security that could help, you know, bring order to this chaos of 5,000 security vendors. >>They're all legitimate. They're all here at the show. They're good vendors. But you cannot, if you are trying to say healthy, go to a doctor and expect the doctor to tell you, eat 5,000 tablets and sailed. He just is not sustainable. It has to be baked into your diet. You eat your proteins, your vegetables, your fruit, your drink, your water. The same way we believe security needs to become intrinsically deeper parts, the platform. So what were the key platforms and control points? We decided to focus on the network, the endpoint, and you could think of endpoint as to both client and workload identity, cloud analytics. You take a few of those and network. We've been laboring the last seven years to build a definitive networking company and now a networking security company where we can do everything from data center networking, Dell firewalls to load balancing to SDN in this NSX platform. >>You remember where you bought an nice syrup. The industry woke up like what's VM ever doing in networking? We've now built on that 13,000 customers really good growing revenue business in networking and and now doing that working security. That space is fragmented across Cisco, Palo Alto, FIU, NetScaler, checkpoint Riverbed, VMware cleans that up. You get to the end point side. We saw the same thing. You know you had an endpoint management now workspace one the sequel of what AirWatch was, but endpoint security again, fragmented. You had Symantec McAfee, now CrowdStrike, tenable Qualis, you know, I mean just so many fragmented IOM. We felt like we could come in now and clean that up too, so I have to worry about to do >> well basically explaining that, but I want to get now to the next conversation point that I'm interested in operational impact because when you have all these things to operationalize, you saw that with dev ops and cloud now hybrid, you got to operationalize this stuff. >>You guys have been in the operations side of the business for our VMware. That's what you're known for and the developers and now on the horizon I gotta operationalize all the security. What do I do? I'm the CSO. I think it's really important that in understanding operations of the infrastructure, we have that control point called vSphere and we're now going to take carbon black and make it agentless on the silverside workloads, which has never been done before. That's operationalizing it at the infrastructure level. At the end point we're going to unify carbon black and workspace one into a unified agent, never been done before. That's operationalizing it on the client side. And then on the container and the dev ops site, you're going to start bringing security into the container world. We actually happened in our grade point of view in containers. You've seen us do stuff with Tansu and Kubernetes and pivotal. >>Bringing that together and data security is a very logical thing that we will add there. So we have a very good view of where the infrastructure and operations parts that we know well, a vSphere, NSX workspace one containers with 10 Xu, we're going to bring security to all of them and then bake it more and more in so it's not feeling like it's a point tool. The same platform, carbon black will be able to handle the security of all of those use cases. One platform, several use cases. Are you happy with the carbon black acquisition? Listen, you know, you stay humble and hungry. Uh, John for a fundamental reason, I've been involved with number of acquisitions from my SAP VMware days, billion dollar plus. We've done talking to us. The Harvard business review had an article several years ago, which Carney called acquisitions and majority of them fail and they feel not because of process of product they feel because good people leave. >>One of the things that we have as a recipe does acquisition. We applied that to AirWatch, we apply the deny Sera. There is usually some brain trust. You remember in the days of nice area, it was my team Cosato and the case of AirWatch. It was John Marshall and that team. We want to preserve that team to help incubate this and then what breve EV brings a scale, so I'm delighted about Patrick earlier. I want to have him on your show next time because he's now the head of our security business unit. He's culturally a fit for the mr. humble, hungry. He wants to see just, we were billion dollar business now with security across networking endpoint and then he wants to take just he's piece of it, right? The common black piece of it, make it a billion dollar business while the overall security business goes from three to five. >>And I think we're going to count them for many years to come to really be a key part of VMware's fabric, a great leader. So we're successful. If he's successful, what's my job then? He reports to me is to get all the obstacles out of the way. Get every one of my core reps to sell carbon black. Every one of the partners like Dell to sell carbon black. So one of the deals we did within a month is Dell has now announced that their preferred solution on at Dell laptops, this carbon bike, they will work in the past with silence and crowd CrowdStrike. Now it's common black every day laptop now as a default option. That's called blank. So as we do these, John, the way we roll is one on here to basically come in and occupy that acquisition, get the obstacles out of the way, and that let Patrick scaled us the same way. >>Martine Casado or jumbo. So we have a playbook. We're gonna apply that playbook. Stay humble and hungry. And you ask me that question every year. How are we doing a carbon black? I will be saying, I love you putting a check on you. It will be checking in when we've done an AirWatch. What do you think? Pretty good. Very good. I think good. Stayed line to the radar. Kept growing. It's top right. Known every magic quadrant. That business is significant. Bigger than the 100 million while nice here. How do we do a nice hero? NSX? It's evolved quite a bit. It's evolved. So this is back to the point. VMware makes bets. So unlike other acquisitions where they're big numbers, still big numbers, billions or billions, but they're bets. AirWatch was a good bet. Turned out okay. That the betting, you're being conservative today anyway. That's it. You're making now. >>How would you classify those bets? What are the big bets that you're making right now? Listen, >> I think there's, um, a handful of them. I like to think of things as no more than three to five. We're making a big bet. A multi-cloud. Okay. The world is going to be private, public edge. You and us have talked a lot about VMware. AWS expanded now to Azure and others. We've a big future that private cloud, public cloud edge number two, we're making a big bet on AB motorization with the container level 10 zoos. I think number three, we're making a big bet in virtual cloud networking cause we think longterm there's going to be only two networking companies in matter, VMware and Cisco. Number four, we're making a big bet in the digital workspace and build on what we've done with AirWatch and other technologies. Number five, and make it a big bet security. >>So these five we think of what can take the company from 10 to 20 billion. So we, you know, uh, we, we've talked about the $10 billion Mark. Um, and the next big milestone for the company is a 20 billion ball Mark. And you have to ask yourself, can you see this company with these five bets going from where they are about a 10 billion revenue company to 20. Boom. We hope again, >> Dave, a lot that's doing a braking and now he might've already shipped the piece this morning on multi-cloud. Um, he and I were commenting that, well, I said it's the third wave of cloud computing, public cloud, hybrid multi-cloud and hybrids, the first step towards multi-cloud. Everyone kind of knows that. Um, but I want to ask you, because I told Dave and we kind of talked about this is a multi-decade growth opportunity, wealth creation, innovation, growth, new opportunity multicloud for the generation. >>Take the, this industry the next level. How do you see that multicloud wave? Do you agree on the multigenerational and if so, what specifically do you see that unfolding into this? And I'm deeply inspired by what Andy Jassy, Satya Nadella, you know, the past leading up to Thomas Korea and these folks are creating big cloud businesses. Amazon's the biggest, uh, in the iOS pass world. Azure is second, Google is third, and just market shares. These folks collectively are growing, growing really well. In some senses, VM-ware gets to feed off that ecosystem in the public cloud. So we are firm believers in what you're described. Hybrid cloud is the pot to the multicloud. We coined that term hybrid thought. In fact, the first incantation of eco there was called via cloud hybrid service. So we coined the term hybrid cloud, but the world is not multi-cloud. The the, the key though is that I don't think you're gonna walk away from those three clouds I mentioned have deep pockets. >>Then none of them are going away and they're going to compete hard with each other. The market shares may stay the same. Our odd goal is to be a Switzerland player that can help our customers take VM or workloads, optimize them in the private cloud first. Okay? When a bank of America says on their earnings caller, Brian Warren and said, I can run a private cloud better than a public cloud and I can save 2 billion doing that, okay? It turns off any of the banks are actually running on VMware. That's their goal. But there are other companies like Freddie Mac, we're going all in with Amazon. We want to ride the best of both worlds. If you're a private cloud, we're going to make you the most efficient private cloud, VMware software, well public cloud, and going to Amazon like a Freddie Mac will help you ride your apps into that through VMware. >>So sometimes history can be a predictor of future behavior. And just to kind of rewind the computer industry clock, if you looked at mainframe mini-computers, inter networking, internet proprietary network operating systems dominated it, but you saw the shift and it was driven by choice for customers, multiple vendors, interoperability. So to me, I think cloud multicloud is going to come down to the best choice for the workload and then the environment of the business. And that's going to be a spectrum. But the key in that is multi-vendor, multi, a friend choice, multi-vendor, interoperability. This is going to be the next equation in the modern error. It's not gonna look the same as mainframe mini's networking, but it'll create the next Cisco, the create the next new brand that may or may not be out there yet that might be competing with you or you might be that next brand. >>So interoperability, multi-vendor choice has been a theme in open systems for a long time. Your reactions, I think it's absolutely right, John, you're onto something there. Listen, the multicloud world is almost a replay of the multi hardware system world. 20 years ago, if you asked who was a multi hardware player before, it was Dell, HP at the time, IBM, now, Lenovo, EMC, NetApp, so and so forth and Silva storage, networking. The multicloud world today is Amazon, Azure, Google. If you go to China, Alibaba, so on and so forth. A Motiva somebody has to be a Switzerland player that can serve the old hardware economy and the new hardware economy, which is the, which is the cloud and then of course, don't forget the device economy of Apple, Google, Microsoft, there too. I think that if you have some fundamental first principles, you expressed one of them. >>Listen where open source exists, embrace it. That's why we're going big on Kubernetes. If there are multiple clouds, embrace it. Do what's right for the customer, abstract away. That's what virtualization is. Managed common infrastructure across Ahmed, which is what our management principles are, secure things. At the point of every device and every workload. So those are the principles. Now the engineering of it changes. The way in which we're doing virtualization today in 2020 is slightly different from when Diane started the company and around the year 2020 years ago. But the principals are saying, we're just not working just with the hardware vendors working toward the cloud vendors. So using choices where it's at, the choice is what they want. Absolutely, absolutely. And you're right. It's choice because it was the big workloads. We see, for example, Amazon having a headstart in the public cloud markets, but there's some use cases where Azure is applicable. >>Some use his word, Google's applicable, and to us, if the entire world was only one hardware player or only one cloud player, only one device player, you don't need VMware. We thrive in heterogeneity. It's awesome. I love that word. No heterogeneity provides not 3000 vendors. There's almost three, three of every kind, three silver vendors, three storage vendors, three networking vendors, three cloud vendors, three device vendors. We was the middle of all of it. And yeah, there may be other companies who tried to do that too. If they are, we should learn from them, do it better than them. And competition even to us is a good thing. All right. My final question for you is in the, yeah, the Dell technologies family of which VMware is a part of, although big part of it, the crown jewel as we've been calling them the cube, they announced RSA is being sold to a private equity company. >>What's the general reaction amongst VMware folks and the, and the Dell technology family? Good move, no impact. What we support Dell and you know, all the moves that they've made. Um, and from our perspective, you know, if we're not owning it, we're going to partner it. So I see no overlap with RSA. We partner with them. They've got three core pillars, secure ID, net witness and Archer. We partnered with them very well. We have no aspirations to get into those aspects of governance. Risk and compliance or security has been, so it's a partner. So whoever's running it, Rohit runs on very well. He also owns the events conference. We have a great relationship and then we'll keep doing that. Well, we are focused in the areas I described, network, endpoint security. And I think what Michael has done brilliantly through the course of the last few years is set up a hardware and systems company in Dell and allow the software company called Vima to continue to operate. >>And I think, you know, the movement of some of these assets between the companies like pivotal to us and so on and so forth, cleans it up so that now you've got both these companies doing well. Dell has gone public, we Hammer's gone public and he has said on the record, what's good for Dell is good, what's good for VMware and vice versa and good for the customer. And I think the key is there's no visibility on what cloud native looks like. Hybrid, public, multi, multi, not so much. But you get almost, it's an easy bridge to get across and get there. AI, cyber are all big clear trends. They're waves. Sasha. Great. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Um, your thoughts on the security show here. Uh, what's your, what's your take to, uh, definitive security shows? I hope it stays that way. Even with the change of where RSA is. >>Ownership goes is this conference in black hat and we play in both, uh, Amazon's conference. I was totally starting to, uh, reinforce, reinforce cloud security will show up there too. Uh, but we, we think, listen, there's what, 30,000 people here. So it's a force. It's a little bit like VMworld. We will play here. We'll play a big, we've got, you know, it just so happens because the acquisition happened before we told them, but we have two big presences here. We were at carbon black, um, and it's an important business for us. And I said, like I said, we have $1 billion business and security today by 30,000 customers using us in a security network, endpoints cloud. I want to take that to be a multi, multiple times that size. And I think there's a pot to do that because it's an adjacent us and security. So we have our own kind of selfish motives here in terms of getting more Mindshare and security. >>We did a keynote this morning, which was well received with Southwest airlines. She did a great job. Carrie Miller, she was a fantastic speaker and it was our way of showing in 20 minutes, not just to our point of view, because you don't want to be self serving a practitioner's point of view. And that's what's really important. Well finally on a personal note, um, you know, I always use the term tech athlete, which I think you are one, you really work hard and smart, but I got to get your thoughts. But then I saw you're not on Twitter. I'm on. When IBM announced a new CEO, Arvin, um, fishnet Indian American, another CEO, this is a pattern. We're starting to see Indian American CEOs running cup American companies because this is the leadership and it's really a great thing in my mind, I think is one of the most successful stories of meritocracy of all time. >>You're quick. I'm a big fan of oven, big fan of Shantanu, Sundar Pichai, something that Ellen, many of them are close friends of mine. Uh, many of them have grown up in Southern India. We're a different ages. Some of them are older than me and in many cases, you know, we were falling behind other great players like Vino Cosla who came even 10 to 15 years prior. And you know, it's hard for an immigrant in this country. You know, um, when I first got here and I came as an immigrant to Dartmouth college, there may have been five or 10 Brown skin people in the town of Hanover, New Hampshire. I don't know if you've been to New Hampshire. I've been there, there's not many at that time. And then the late 1980s, now of course, there's much more, uh, so, you know, uh, we stay humble and hungry. >>There's a part of our culture in India that's really valued education and hard work and people like Arvin and some of these other people are products. I look up to them, the things I learned from them. And um, you know, it's true of India. It's a really good thing to see these people be successful at name brand American companies, whether it's IBM or Microsoft or Google or Adobe or MasterCard. So we're, we're, I'm in that fan club and there's a lot I learned from that. I just love being around people who love entrepreneurship, love innovation, love technology, and work hard. So congratulations. Thank you so much for your success. Great to see you again soon as you put in the COO of VM-ware here on the ground floor here at RSA conference at Moscone, sharing his insight into the security practice that is now carbon black and VMware. All the good things that are going on there. Thanks for watching.

>> from Bahrain. It's the Q recovery AWS Public sector Bahrain brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> welcome to the cues conversation here. You're in Bahrain for Amazon Webster, is this summit our second summit? Um, here. Big news. Amazon Web services announced the availability of the region in the Middle East. I'm here with the chief of Public Sector Theresa Cross and vice President of Worldwide Public Sector. This is a huge milestone. This event one just in terms of the event. The interest across multiple countries in the region. Yes. And you have a new region with multiple availability zones? Yes, up and running. Congratulations. >> Hey, we launched the confetti today and yes, we're open for business and we do. It's a hyper scale region with three available the zones and lots of activity already here in the delays. But it really is a substantial kind of milestone because we started this sometime back in the Middle East, was one of the top regions around the world requested by our partners and customers. And now here we are. >> We've been talking with you for many, many years and I love interviewing you, but this one to me feels like it's not the weight off your shoulders. It's you're at the start line of another marathon. You've achieved so much with this because what's the first thing about Bart Rainey? We've reported on this on Select Angle and our other sites is that you get a lot of work here, is not just turning on a region. There's a lot of government commitment cloud first, full modernization, fintech banking systems, a full re platforming of a government and society and Amazons powering a lot of it and causing a lot of economic growth. So this is a big deal. >> It really is a big deal because, like you said, it really is about digital transformation here. And when I met the crown Prince in 2014 we had this conversation about really creating the economy here in a different way because Bob terrain itself, it's not oil rich country, but a smaller country with lots and lots of tourism. But in this region, while we haven't based here in Bahrain, this is truly a Middle East GCC region and but But part of that, the reason to start it here in my reign was that they really did take a lead in government transformation. As you heard them say, they're going all in shake Some on today talked about government is moving really fast, and they actually did the hard work to think about their telecommunications industry, their government regulations. They started with cloud first, and then they created all the write regulations to make this happen. So it is kind of phenomenal how quickly, in some ways, you know, feel slower than we'd like, But it's really moving quite fast. >> It's pretty fast. You should get a lot of kudos for that. I think you will. But I think to me what's interesting. The news here is that there is a balance between regulation and innovation going on, and regulation can be hampering innovation, some cases and not enough regulation. You have a Facebook situation or >> right so >> it's a balance. These guys have done it right. But to me, the tell sign is the fintech community, >> because that's where >> the money is. The central bank and then the ABC bank are all talking about a pea eye's all in with Amazon that's gonna create an ecosystem for innovation. Startups, et cetera. >> It totally isn't you heard Thean Vivid Jewel from ABC Bank today talk about their platform. What they're doing with clouds and the reason they chose a DBS was because we had this region of Bob Terrain, and they wanted to move quickly in. The regulations now have been updated in a way that actually allows them to do their banking applications in the lab. There's also a startup accelerator here, Fintech May, and they're doing a tenant work with new types of financial applications. So it's so exciting to see this kind of happening than the lace for I think a lot of people thought it would be much slower. We have a ways to go. It's still day one, for sure, but all the building blocks are getting there in the right place to really make this happen. >> You know, 80. Jessie's quoting the announcement you guys had just a couple weeks ago. Laura Angel And in July, the clouds of chance unlocked digital transmission. Middle East, says Andy chassis. Obviously unlocking is a key word because now you have customers from startups to large enterprises and ecosystem of a P M party. So the Ap N Group is here. Yes, So you have global I SUV's here and knew I s V's. You got the government and the education and to me, the news of the show. To me at least maybe it's not the big news, but is that you guys? They're offering a computer like a cloud computing degree. Yeah, for the first time about that news, >> you are right in terms of kind of every sector's picking at, but like in most places around the world, this is not unique. We need skills, and we've got to make sure that we're teaching the skills, working backwards from what the employer needs, like a TVs. So what? We've been here. We announced today we're launching our first cloud computing degree at the university of our terrain, and they're kind of thing. That's really unusual, John. They're going to do a phase one where they offer a cloud certification starting in early 2021 every program at the University of Bahrain, Whether you're in finance or banking, or business or health care or law, you can do this cloud computing certification, which gets you going and helps you understand how you last cloud in your business and then in the fall will be announcing the four year starting, the four year cloud computing degree, and that is in conjunction with our A DBS Educate program. And it will be all the right cloud skills that are needed to be successful. >> Talk about the demographics in this country because one of the things that's coming up is when I talk people in the doorways and it's a chance to talk to some local folks last night that that all in an Amazon, the theme is this. This younger generation yes, is here, and they have different expectations. They all want to work hard. They don't want to just sit back on their laurels and rest on their on their location. Here. They want to build companies they want to change. This is a key factor in the bottle rain modernization. Is that >> Yeah, generation well, all across the Middle East. The thing that's unique about the mill aces, the very young population you had millions of gamers across the Middle East as an example that comic con and Saudi like two years ago on that was one of the most popular things was fortnight. As soon as the region got at all the different gaming started taking place. But we want to create a culture of builders here, and the way you do that is what you said, John putting it into their hands, allowing these young people have the tools create a startup became entrepreneur, but they need to have access to these tools. And sometimes capital is often not that easy to get. So they want to make sure that the capital that they're given or that they have, whether it's bootstrap capital or venture capital, fending or whatever friends and family, they want to make sure that they can use that capital to the greatest advantage to build that company out. And I truly believe that this is gonna help them having an eight of us cloud region. I mean, you saw. Today we have 36 companies that launched their offering in the region on the day we actually announced so that they had specific offerings for the Middle East, which pretty exciting. I mean, that's a lot on day one. >> I mean, it's still day. One of you guys always say, but literally day one they were launching Yeah, I wanted to comment if you could just share some insights. I know, Um, your passion for, you know, entrepreneurship. You guys are also some skill development investing a lot of women in tech power panel this morning, there's major change going on. You guys were providing a lot of incentives, a lot of mentoring, this internships in conjunction with by rain. There's a lot of good things. Share some of the new things that you're working on, maybe deals you're talking about doing or >> way announced Thio kind of new things today. One is we have our we partake program, which I'm, of course, super passionate about. And that is about preventing tech learning and skills to women and underserved in representative communities. So we announced three other training programs here across the Middle East time. So those were put up today and you'll continue to see its role more and more of those out. And the other thing we did yesterday we announced a internship program with the minister of Youth here in Bahrain. That was shaped Nassir, who's a very famous He's that King san, and he's a very famous sportsmen. He does. He just won the Ironman Ironman and 2016. It was the world champion. He does endurance horse racing, so he's a He's a someone that the youth look at to here, and so he's doing all these programs. So we announced a partnership that were the first group doing the internship with this youth program, and so we're very excited. We're going to start that small and scale it, but we want to get these young people quickly and kind of get them excited. But here, what they focus on it is underrepresented communities. So it fits so nicely in with what we're doing with our attack. So you have both Oliver training our over 400 online courses that we offer with a dubious education academy. Now degree now our internship program and we protect. So, John, we're just getting going. I'm not saying that this is all will offer, but these are the things that were getting going with, and we need to make sure we also Taylor things like this Ministry of Youth program and sports at to the region in terms of water, their local needs, and we'll make sure that we're always looking >> at the entrance. Just just get him some great experience. Yes, so they can earn and feel good about themselves. This is kind of a key, exactly thing not just getting an internship, >> and it's, I think, locally it will be about teaching them to do that, disagree and commit really have that backbone to build that company and ask all those hard questions. So we're really going to try to indoctrinate them into the Amazon a TVs culture so we can help them be entrepreneurs like we are every day. >> And you got the data center, you got the city, the centers, you get the regions up and running, and architect, it perfectly suits up with people in it. Are you going to staff that with local talent, or is it gonna be Amazonian is coming in? What's the makeup of staff gonna be? What's the >> story? I mean, our goal is to hire as many local talent. We everywhere we go around the world. We want to get local talent because you can't yet if we did, First of all, we don't have enough people in our headquarters to bring folks in here, so we really have to train and educate. But locally, we have an office open here by rain. We haven't Office Open and Dubai and one down Saudi, and that is local talent. I mean, we are trying to use as much local talent and will continue to create that. And that's kind of the point. Jonas talking about the degree working backwards from what the employer needs. We want to give input because we think we also are getting good. Yeah, so we need to get the top. But we need those other individual employers that keep telling us we need more cloud skills to give that input. But, yeah, >> we're going to get a degree, migrate them into the job >> market, right quick like >> and educates. Been doing great. I learned a lot. This is a whole opportunity for people who want to make money, get a job. Amazon Web service is >> It's a place you could either work for us. Work for someone now, like even the government has a >> virus. Make a person tomorrow >> there. Yet >> we had one, >> but the point of being a builder, what we're seeing more and more John are these companies and government entities are building their talent internally. They're not outsourcing everything anymore, and the whole culture at being a builder, not just outsourcing all that. And that's what eight of us really helps all these entities. D'oh is moved quicker by having kind of some in house talent and not outsourcing everything to slow you down. That >> really thank ABC pointed that out beautifully in his point was, Hey, I'm gonna you know, I'm all in on AWS. We have domain expertise, We have data. That's our intellectual property. We're going to use that and be competitive and partner. And >> yes, and the new models it is. And that I p stays in house with that company or entity or government organization. It was so fun for me today to hear Shake some on from Maggie. A talk about the government is moving fast, and I think that's an example of a really are they figured out clown helps him just go a lot faster and save many security. >> I'm glad you brought that up. I know you got a short time here, but I want one last point in. We've been talking a lot about modernization of government, your success with C i a United States jet I contract still under consideration. All this going on you're experiencing by ranges and, um, unbelievable, fast moving government. They kind of get it. United States some places gets it. This is really about focusing in on the workloads. What have you learned? As you've been engaging these modernization efforts with governments summer slow, some of political ramifications behind. No one wants to lose. Old guard will hold onto the rails. We've seen that in the news, but this is coming fast. What are you learning? What do you >> take away its leadership? I mean, at the end of the day, all these things were driven by a very strong leaders. And even you can see everybody today on stage. It is leaders that make a decision that they wanted a faster and they want to modernize but have the capabilities. No matter if you're the U. S. Department of Defense. Ah, yes. Health and human resource is National Health Service in the UK or RG a hearing by rain, the government's or enterprises that we work with around the world. The key is leadership. And if there's that leader that is really strong and says we're moving, did you actually see organizations move a lot faster if you see people kind of waffle anger. I'm not sure, you know, that's when you can see the slowness. Wow, What I will tell you is from the early days of starting this business in 2010 the individuals that always move fastest for the mission owners because the mission owners of whatever the business West at a governmental level or enterprise, they said, we need to keep our mission going. So that's the reason they wanted to walk through this transformation. >> And now, I think, with developers coming in and started to see these employees for these companies saying, No, no, what's the reason why we can't go fast? That's right now a groundswell of pressure you see in both government, public sector and commercial. >> And you saw Mark Allen today on stage talking about security. It iss literally day. Zero thing for us, and the reason a lot of our customers are meeting faster now is because of security. Cloud is more secure in their meeting to the cloud for security because they feel like they could both optimize, move faster for workloads, and now they have security. Better, faster, cheaper security, bad design, >> Theresa always pleasure thinking coming. Spending time. Thank >> you for coming to Barbara Ryan. Thank you. So >> we're going global with you guys is seeing the global expansion 20 to 22nd region. 69 availabilities owns nine more coming. More regions. More easy. You guys doing great. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Secure. We are here in Bahrain. Form or coverage. Global coverage of the cube with Reese Carlson, vice president of worldwide public sector. She's running the show doing a great job. We're here more after the stroke break. Stay with us.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The CloudNative Computing Foundation, and Antico System Partners. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCUBE. Day two live coverage here in Seattle of the CNCF KubeCon and CouldNative. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Stu Miniman here all week for three days as multiple years we've been covering KubeCon. We've been covering this community, all the way back to the OpenStack days to now CloudNative and Kubernetes, rise of Kubernetes, and KubeCon has been great. CloudNative Computing Foundation and the center of it has been an individual CUBE alumni that we've talked to many times, Lew Tucker, VP and CTO of Cloud Computing at Cisco Systems. Great to have Lew on, good to see you. >> Great to be back again. >> We got a great history of conversations and every year we kind of have a pinch me moment where it's like it's so awesome right now, the technology's coming together, now more than ever, the standardization, the maturization of Kubenetes and what's going on around it, is probably one of the most exciting trends. It's not just about Kubernetes, it's about what that's enabling, ecosystems, storage, networking and compute, now the, is working now magically creating a lot of value. So, we've talked about it, what's the update from your perspective, how do you see it evolving now? >> I see it very much the same way, I had a short little keynote today, yesterday, and was talking about I think we've entered this kind of golden age of software where because of the number of projects that are now going into the CNCF for example, and elsewhere, and get up repositories, we just have a major driving force which is the accumulation of the software that's used now to power the cloud, power data centers, totally transforming infrastructure. We're no longer cabling as I sort of say has no become code. >> Yeah. >> And that's all about the software, it's about through the open source communities. >> We've been talking about before we came on camera about the, and we've had other conversations about the historical waves of innovation. AI's been around for a while, you know all these things have kind of been around but now with cloud computing and the resources available in terms of compute power, storage, and networking now programmable, it's creating a lot of innovation right. And this has been a tailwind for some and a headwind for others, companies that have transformed and understood that have been leveraging it. We've seen conversations from Net App, Cisco, you guys are transform, you turned it into a tailwind, for Cisco, because now all that magic can come in for the programmability on the networking side. >> Exactly right, yeah. We see AI as having a big impact across the board on all of these, we're big contributors also into Cube Clove, for example, because on top of Kubernetes, the biggest issue we're going to have in AI going forward is we don't have enough AI engineers. We don't have enough people who are trained in that. So we need to create these tools and the services that we see coming out in the cloud now for AI are designed to make it easy to consume AI. You don't have to be an AI expert in order to use it and that sort of thing is really exciting. >> How is the CloudNative environment changing IT investments 'cause again, the old days I'd have to throw a machine at something, I got to buy this and siloed, you got now horizontal capabilities, you got the vertical specialization with machine learning and AI as you just referenced. How is it changing investments, people now are looking at re-imagining their infrastructure, they're re-imagining how apps are built. How is Kubernetes, CloudNative impacting IT investments? >> So we've found for example when we talk to our customers and everything else, they're all using multiple clouds. So I think internally we're getting to see a rise here now is this multi-cloud environment that we have. And so Cisco with what we've been doing with our hybrid solutions for AWS and hybrid solutions that we're having with Google is making it so that you can have the same environment within your data center as you have in the cloud, and then we connect the two so that now the IT infrastructure really is looking like a cloud and there's many clouds, multiple clouds in your own data center, in multiple service providers. That makes it easier for IT to really consume CloudNative technology. >> I wonder if you can chill us down a level from what we're talking- you talk about cube flow and machine learning remember back to big data, was like okay, well what do we have to do with the network? Well, I need some more buffering but you know, how are we what is just the base infrastructure layer and where Kubernetes and this ecosystem just becomes the platform for all of the modern applications, and what has to be done differently, I wonder if you could help- >> Yeah so one of the big challenges I think is this how do we connect the different clouds together with your own data center. And that's why we, the hybrid solutions, where Cisco's driving now are designed specifically to make that easy because it's scary for IT organizations to say they're going to open up some part of their firewall to have connections coming in, and so we provide a solution that makes it easy for people. And that means that things such as cube flow, and things like that, they can be running, perhaps they might do some of their research in a hybrid- in a public cloud provider, such as AWS or Google. And then they want to run it now in production within their own data center, and they don't want to change a thing. And at the same time, we're seeing other capabilities. You want to access some service in the cloud as a part of your enterprise app. >> Yeah one of the things people have a hard time understanding is what is just kind of standardized, okay I've got compliant Kubernetes it can run all these places and then there's areas where Cisco has done deep integration work with both Google Cloud and with AWS, maybe help understand what are the standard pieces and what's the extra engineering work needed to be done to support some of these? >> Well I think what has helped us all is the fact that Kubernetes has really taken off. So we really are seeing if you have a Kubernetes platform and you adhere to the public APIs of Kubernetes and everything else like that, you then can have the portability of applications back in the java days we were going after that, and now we're seeing it with Kubernetes. And so by what we've developed has been with the Cisco container platform is an on premise manage Kubernetes environment that looks identical to what you find in the Kubernetes environment at AWS or at Google. So the same interfaces are there, the IT doesn't have to relearn things, they can actually get the advantage of that standardization. >> And that's key for operations and IT because that is the promise of cloud operations. Similar on both platforms on premises and in the cloud. And the next question is okay from a networking perspective, we've had many conversations with Suzie Wee at Cisco around network programmability or net dev options as you guys call it, which is kind of a play on dev ops. This is the future because with multi-cloud the apps don't need to know about where to provision workloads, which cloud when, is it better region over here, latency, network factors come in, you still got to move things around, put A to B, edge of the network for IOT. Talk about the importance of network programmability now more than ever with CloudNative why it's so important. >> Well the first and foremost, it has to be driven by APIs. The old days of actually going out and having people configure network switches to make connectivity or open up provisions and firewalls and things like that, that's behind us. Now we have that all being because of programmability of the network through what we've been doing with ACI and other technologies, we can make it so we can connect these clouds and make it, maintain the security. We're also seeing other things such as isteo and edgebased computing and things like that come into play, where again, the ordinary developer doesn't have to learn all of the details of networking and security, but the operations people need it to be secure, need it to be able to be moved around, need to be able to have telemetry so they can tell what's going on. >> One of the things we've been talking about on theCUBE, Stu and I were yesterday riffing on this but for a while, but it's also now trickled into the Silicon Valley conversations around some of the tech elite people around architecture. Cloud architects are in high demand and there's two schools of thought. There's a persona around a systems architect, more of a systems view, operating systems kind of view, that's cloud that's operating, environment, serverless, advanced, these are kind of concepts that is a systems-oriented thinker. And then you have the application developer that looks like an app server kind of world. Those are all paradigms that we've lived through. >> Right. >> Now coming together now in one, horizontally scaled both cloud that's a system, vertical specialization around the apps, and with dev ops layer, having these guys work together. Talk about this dynamic, your thoughts on it, how it shapes employee selection, people who lead projects. 'Cause the CTO and architect role's now more important, but the software side's just as important. >> Yeah so I think one thing that's become very clear is that we need to make it easier for the domain experts in an application area to just take care of their part. And so that's why like one of the previous episodes we talked about here was about istea, where we've actually separated out essentially the data play, the transport of data around with security, encryption, identity, and everything else from the actual application code of the micro service. That makes it much easier because now the engineering teams are too large, you can't have everybody know everything anymore, like you say, we've got specialists in different areas. We need to be able to provide then, underlying systems that connect these things and that underlying system then has to be managed by your operations people. So we've got dev ops where the application people are writing code actually that the operations people use, so that we can actually have this kind of uniform infrastructure that is maintainable. >> And security is super important and all that good stuff. >> Yeah so Lew it's interesting, we've been watching so many of the pieces we've worked on OpenStack, it was really from the bottoms up building the infrastructure, we've seen the dynamic the last two years, Kubernetes some, and server-less even more, coming from the top down. We want to get your thoughts on that, we've been digging in and trying to tease out some of the Knative pieces that are being discussed here, versus some of the functions things that are happening, especially in Amazon and Microsoft, I'd love to get your take. >> I think we're always seeing this progression in platforms for computing, and programming languages, and paths we've talked about years ago. All of these things are designed always to make it easier. So you're right we've got for example Knative now really coming on as saying can we standardize a way specifically helping Kubernetes people move into this area. Like I've mentioned before the Kubeflow again, how can we start to standardize these pieces? The beauty of this is, the standardized pieces are coming out in open source. So everybody gets it, and that means it's deployable in your public clouds, it's deployable in your data center, and then through a lot of the hybrid technology that Cisco's working, you can connect those together. But you're right we're going to continue to see innovation, that's great, because we need that, we need that constantly. What we need to be able to do is make it easier to consume and then integrate into these systems. And that's where I think Kubernetes has a lot do with how we make it easier. >> Final question on Cisco then I want to go on a more personal note with you on your situation which is news breaking here on theCUBE. Cisco has successfully transformed it's direction, it's been always a great leader in networking, always a great business, billions and billions of dollars in revenue. Now with CloudNative and Kubernetes, the relationship I saw with Amazon, you got Google, you guys have taken that systems view in making things programmable. Explain the Cisco strategy from your perspective as a CTO and as a legend in the industry, for the people that know Cisco, know the old Cisco, what is the new Cisco? And how does Kubernetes and how does all this CloudNative fit into the new Cisco? >> I think the new Cisco really is focused now on where customers are taking their computing resources and it is in this multi-cloud world where we're seeing it's not a fight anymore. You can't say I have a reason to keep things here in my data center, I'm never going to go to cloud, and other customers are saying I'm never going to have a data center, now everybody's saying we're probably going to have both. And Cisco as a networking company, this plays right into our strength because what you have to be able to do is now connect those environments in a secure way, in a manageable way. And so this plays right into where Cisco's growth I think is going to be, it'll be in much more of these kinds of services that allow that to happen, and in the relationships and partnerships that we have with the major cloud providers. >> This basically, the decomposition of monolithic applications into sets of microservices is connected by the network. >> Exactly right. >> This is the fundamental beauty of where you guys see that tailwind. >> Exactly. >> Awesome. Well Lew you've been a legend in the industry, I've been following your career from the beginning. You've been- you have product that's in the Computers Museum you've done amazing work at Sun Microsystems, I mean just a great story career, the work you've done at Cisco, you've been on theCUBE so many times, I don't know that number. You've really contributed to the industry and this news now about your situation, share the news about what's happening with you. >> Well I made announcements at our CNCF board and our OpenStack board meetings that I'm leaving Cisco and so I'm having to withdraw from the board positions as well as Cloud Foundry and that's sad in a way because I have relationships with those people, but it many ways after I want to spend some time to really see where the future is again, because as you know in my career I've changed several times. And I'm so looking forward to actually, now going into sort of a new direction which may be much more moving up the stack. I think there's very exciting things going on in AI, there's exciting things going on in genomics. There's a lot of activity going on so we've been building this technology for a purpose to allow us to have those kinds of things. Now I want to start focusing much more directly. >> And you're leaving Cisco on what date? >> Leaving Cisco beginning of January. >> Well congratulations, great work and I think one of the trends I think this speaks to is I see a lot of computer scientists, a lot of people who have some DNA from the old ways like you do, and been there, and contributed at a seminal level, just some great contributions. Seeing computer science as an opportunity to solve problems. This is kind of a renaissance from seasoned pioneers and young people coming together. This is a great opportunity, is that kind of what you're thinking, you're just going to attack the problem? >> There's 8000 people here, this show's sold out and this is all developers so people who have background in computer science or are getting online and learning it themselves, this is an opportunity and the time to get in. >> You've been a great mentor to many, you've been a great contributor in the open source community, again, your contributions at the systems level and you understand certainly what's going on with CloudNative, looking forward to following up and congratulations. >> Yep, well I hope to be back again. >> Of course, you're VIP CUBE alumni. Lew Tucker, exciting news, Cisco's transformed. He's moving on to- taking on some big new challenges, thanks for coming on theCUBE really appreciate it. Lew Tucker, Vice President CTO systems, Cisco systems, moving on to some new endeavors. Here in theCUBE we're covering the live coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, back with more day two interviews after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier cohost of the Cube, here with my cohost this week Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. Got two great guests in the industry here, Lew Tucker, the CTO of Cloud Computing for Cisco Systems and Aparna Sinha who's the group project manager for Google Cloud, thanks for coming on, great to see you guys. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously the two big players, you've got networking, you've got moving up the stack and Google Cloud with all the goodness you have hundreds of people here at this show. Cloud native big, you're cloud native, >> Aparna: Yeah. >> You guys are running the networks a lot of stuff's happening, but the big story's the Kubernetes de facto standard position that's been echoed by many people here, Kubernetes tightly controlled core with a lot of innovation going on around Kubernetes. >> Aparna: Yes. >> When I hear words like de facto standards, it reminds me of the old networking days when the OSI model and the TCPIP was forming. Massive shifts at that point. >> Lew: Yeah, yeah. >> Almost a seminal moment now. >> Yeah but in fact I think in open source it's a different notion than in the old days of standards. Here we've got multiple communities, multiple companies that are working together to create a common platform and that's what I think the success of open source is about. So actually, Kubernetes coming into CNCF has really makes that possible and we just graduated it so we should have a celebration around Kubernetes now has graduated in terms of a CNCF project. >> Yeah and you know one think I would say about de facto standard, I don't take that for granted. Kubernetes is built as a platform that runs anywhere across on premises, data centers, public clouds, runs anywhere but, you know that it will be or is a de facto standard is something that we don't take for granted. We make sure in the community that we're working on increase support for, for example different types of storage with a storage interface standard, different types of networking, with a CNI different types of run times, so establishing those interfaces and establishing those standards is key to making it the platform. But that's certainly the potential of Kubernetes is to be-- >> Yeah I mean it's not the end game, it's the beginning. >> Aparna: It is. >> And the nurturing and making sure that ecosystem with thrive is important. And that's why I want to get your thoughts, 'cause you've got Google and Cisco here so lets talk about first the relationship, you guys are working together. >> Lew: Absolutely, yeah. >> Talk about the relationship between Google and Cisco. >> Sure, I think it came about because we're both recognizing that enterprises for example are incorporating cloud computing as a part of their overall IT strategy. And so they needed to find a way, how can they actually make that happen without companies that are working in both of those areas getting together. So it's very natural I think for the two of us to sort of come together because this way we can take our enterprise customers and using Kubernetes as sort of the foundational platform make it so that they can run applications wherever they want, they can run it in their private data center they can run it in Google Cloud, and we can make this now, to provide a lot of the networking so that you can extend private networks into Google Cloud and vice versa, so I think it's a marriage made in heaven in that way. >> Aparna you're reaction to the partnership. >> Yeah, you know, Google is a very developer friendly, developer focused company, always has been, you know the majority of Google is actually developers so it's a company for developers by developers and you know with Google Cloud actually the irony is we're also a networking company and so there's a nice affinity working with Cisco. Our DNA is very much open source, there's multiple projects that have come out of Google that have been very successful open source projects. I mean Tenser Flow, Kubernetes I think is unique in that we've really created and participated and built a community around it and so with this partnership, we're really excited to have Cisco also be part of the community, certainly with Kubernetes but also the Istio Project. And a lot of the projects in cloud native have come from Google's experience running services at global scale. Kubernetes certainly came that way from the Borg heritage and then Istio also from, from what we call one platform, internally to manage service. >> That's a great point, you brought up scale and it's interesting, it's almost like you have two large scale companies here, you have Cisco with massive scale footprint of enterprises from day one, routers you need to move packets around the internet. You guys have built scale for Google with millions of services out there, millions of users, I mean it's unprecedented. So now as you come into the enterprise, the Cisco relationship is an opportunity to blend the best of Google with the footprint at Cisco, how is that going to work, how's that working and what's the vision? I mean obviously it's a nice match, you've got a great footprint in the enterprise, you've got massive scale with the cloud, bringing that in, moving it out, hybrid cloud obviously, is that the? >> Yeah well we often notice for example as I sort of said, the foundational piece is actually running Kubernetes everywhere and so we just recently announced a Cisco container platform which is based on Kubernetes, that means that enterprises now can develop applications in Google Cloud and then run them in their enterprises or vice verse and then on top of that and we're adding in the networking capabilities, through things such as CSR and things like that to allow us to connect both the enterprise and their public cloud running Kubernetes and then Istio as we're mentioning is this thing on top and I'm, as you know, a big fan of where that really is going to take us because I think one of the things that enterprises want to be able to do is that they want to be able to consume services out of Google Cloud, whether it be in kind of terms of the data services or increasingly AI, intelligence service, Tenser Flow, be able to use as a part of their enterprise applications and so I have within my team for example contributed both in terms of what we're doing in terms of Istio, Kubernetes, I've got people on my team who are bringing for example IPB6 into Kubernetes, that's important because, guess what, service providers also want to move into a container world. And then also Cube Flow and so all of these things are starting to come together so that you can start building applications as an assembly of these services and many other services that I will see coming from the public cloud and Google in particular. >> Aparna, I want to ask you, because this is important to distinguish this Istio trend because we asked a lot of people at the Cube here and in our reporting, okay what's next after Kubernetes? If you have a de facto standard, you have stuff coming around it, an eco system, everyone talks about service mesh and Istio project. >> Aparna: Yeah. >> Now the best thing about infrastructure as code which is dev ops in the cloud is you can make things programmable and automate, so if you look at what Istio's doing, it feels like an application benefit but also an automated networking concept with services. >> Aparna: Sure. >> So you got kind of a new dynamic going on where a lot of dynamic things are happening a lot of services are being provisioned, maybe for the first time. >> Aparna: Yeah, yeah. >> So how do you instrument it? This is going to be a future area of innovation. >> So again going back to that standard, right? That platform that runs everywhere, why is it a standard, why is it becoming a standard and I hear this from our customers, our users, it's because they don't have to train multiple times for multiple different environments, they can really scale their workforce, they can hire people that they trained up in Kubernetes and they can scale that workforce so it applies regardless of where they go and it gives them that mobility and if you think about the eco system around Kubernetes right so Kubernetes is one project, a major big project but then the eco system around Kubernetes has really exploded in the last year it has gone from 4000 projects to 15000 projects and I was looking through those projects and seeing you know, which are the ones that have the most stars and there's actually three projects that stood out as having more than 3000 stars but being new, like in the last year and Istio was at the top of that list and obviously it's very popular in terms of the number of stars but it's only one year old and I don't know how much people know that. >> And I think it's interesting, 'cause I'm going to throw kind of a curve ball here at you and say, you know I'm hearing that the service mesh is actually, people are using it. >> Aparna: Yes. >> But it's actually hasn't been deployed into production, is that the case? >> Aparna: It's starting to be. >> Okay. >> So on GKE, Google Kubernetes Engine we've got customers that are deploying Istio, it's starting. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Again it's a one year old project and then also on premise, using the open source and we've got a program called the EEPE program it's like an early program, they're deploying and using Istio and it tends to be a very nice attach to Kubernetes. >> So what is the use case for that? >> One of the things to understand, it is very new and less than a year old, we're not even at a one dot out yet but the components that go into it, Envoy for example has been battle tested because Istio's made up of, just to get technical, in terms of having proxies that make up the data plane and that's battle testing or whatever. So now we're adding a control plane on top of that, where policy, telemetry, observability, all of that comes to the fore. That's what's new. So bringing that together and so people have and Istio's not the only service mesh, service meshes have actually been made up of these proxies and have you manage them, Istio's just seems to be a better way to the community is agreeing-- >> A proxy can be very inefficient, so I want to just ask a question on that because one of the things that I'm trying to understand is for the average person in tech, not the inside baseball, they're trying to understand why is Istio so powerful. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So is there, what paid points are they solving? >> The easiest way to think about that is we've moved to a microservices architecture and that's so that every development team can focus on their particular area of expertise, they don't want to have to learn networking and everything else, so what we've done is we've offloaded all of the issues around how do you do load balancing, circuit breakers and telemetry off to a service mesh, that allows the developer to dramatically increase their productivity because they're only focused on their one application area and now the operations team brings that together through the networking concept. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So they built a distributed application without having to know very much about the specificity. >> Yes, it's very much that separation of concern and you know Kubernetes has the same principle, it separates you know the infrastructure from the applications and what Istio does, it allows you to manage those applications at scale, visualize them, make them secure and to control them in a scalable way, so you're not writing the service management pieces into the application and the developer is therefor freed from that burden and the application operations team can then manage things like distributing certificates or rotating certificates, right? Those are things you need to do across all of your services. >> So you're bringing us on that system and I know you guys run at scale, hundreds of thousand of services, if not more, I don't know what the number is, millions whatever it is. >> Aparna: Four million containers. >> Tons. >> Aparna: A week! >> So when you talk about that, what I'm hearing and I've talked to the SRE, site reliable engineers before, the roll of the admin is gone to more of an operator and then the operator role is less of an operating, 'cause it's operating only on exception, 'cause if you got policy in the control plane, that seems to be where the action is, is that, am I getting that right? How do you explain that notion of less admin, more operational kind of-- >> There is a change in roles, the administration of the application is not so application specific if you will, right? And I think the best analogy to it is the way we do development at Google, everybody is a developer right? And they write their services but there's a lot of common infrastructure that you do not replicate so for example storage, monitoring, logging, you know publishing your API, you know quotas, rate limiting, chargebacks, billing, all of that is common infrastructure, you write your service, it is immediately using all of that infrastructure, you don't build those things into your application and that has so many benefits, you know you can write your service and it can be global. >> So on time savings, no brainer, automation-- >> And when you change any one of those services that has a monitoring or anything, now you don't have to tell the application development team that that change is happening. >> So this is infrastructure as code, passes the test right? You can program the infrastructure. >> This is services, this is a services world, rather than infrastructure world or an application siloed world, this is the world of services, that's really what we're here for. >> What's the growth in microservices? I'm seeing different stats, can you just give an order of magnitude, just from your own personal experience in looking at the market, how fast is the notion of microservices growing? 'Cause this is really the proxy for the cloud native shift. And you guys are certainly micro services oriented, we talk about this all the time, any data or any anecdotes around growth of microservices? >> Well I mean there's a lot of surveys and most of the surveys point towards, I think containers are a good proxy, you know 88 percent of enterprises are using containers, it's becoming, whether you move to the cloud or not actually containers are basically a way of doing things more repeatedly, giving you efficiency from an infrastructure perspective giving you reliability so that you know you can basically exchange out the hardware and your container environment is still resilient and then giving you that developer productivity, that's becoming something that enterprises are embracing, it seems from these surveys and I think that's the building block for microservices. >> And I think many people are already moved, remember Soho, we've got history here, so we've been trying to move towards this world in which it is a services world and before it was much too heavyweight Ectimel RPC and everything that made it, Soap and everything else, difficult to do these things. Now things have gotten much much easier. So a lot of people are actually doing a services architecture already. And the microservices I think is just a more formal way of doing that at a finer grain and when you get to this finer grain, that's when you need something like a service mesh now to pull things back together again. >> Alright, lets do a plug for the service mesh, people that are watching have got to be intrigued by this conversation, what's the state of the service mesh piece, lot of stars so good good community vibe going on, how do they get involved, what's needed, where's the white space, where's the work being done? >> And I think also John, what skills are needed to actually as a developer, you know we've got a lot of new folks here at that show that are just learning about this and what do they need to know to actually do this and bring this back to their companies. >> If they're, so first of all it's at Istio.io so that's the place to start, there's a lot of very good documentation there, there's very simple examples that can be downloaded so that you can try it out, you can try it out we're using containers so on top of cumulating, you can do it on your laptop, you can do it in the cloud so we're in this wonderful age of the internet in fact that most of the learning is done online and that you can get everything you need online you don't have to walk away from the show with a CD pack or anything else like that. So I would encourage developers to just simply try it out by themselves. Remember then there's Istio developers, people that are actually contributing code into Istio, that's sort of a specialized group of people who are very interested in it. More people, it'll be 10 to one users of Istio than there will be actually of the Istio developer community and the Istio developer community I urge people to get involved 'cause that's where we need to expand the number of use cases and make sure that we're covering the things that are important across the board for variety. >> Yeah, I mean Istio's not that difficult to learn, it's an L7 Proxy. It has a great affinity to Kubernetes project so if you are using Kubernetes or are involved in Kubernetes project then it basically is something that you can deploy into your Kubernetes cluster and you can get started with it. There are a number of trainings and workshops actually at this conference, there were a couple of Istio trainings and there are many tracks and then there's training online, there's a tutorial on the Google site with the GKE and I think on many other companies as well to get started with Istio but it's basically a proxy and in, it's not actually only limited to Kubernetes, you can run it in a VM environment, you can, it basically any service, it is a proxy that intercepts and you know basically can provide load balancing, traffic managing, quotas, all of those things that you expect of a rich proxy and so if you have a networking background it's actually very easy to pick it up. >> That's great, now when you're talking about these kind of, you know, these proxy and things along those lines, I'm sure that there are use cases that are the first ones to pop up, can you talk a little bit about that. >> Yes, I think the first use case of Istio is actually Canary, Canary deployment, so being able to route traffic from one version of your application to another version of your application. Make sure that that, lets say it's an upgrade, you know, make sure that that's running well and then gradually route more of you're traffic. So that's a very developer centric use case that appeals and then of course security. And that's a less developer centric, more control and ops perspective and then observability and again, control, also an ops perspective, those are the three main use cases. >> Okay. >> That's great, that's awesome and you have Cube Flow going on here, you guys had a couple of Google folks on. >> Yes, so I mentioned three projects that are the top projects, Istio number one, number two is Cube Flow, again within the last year, more than 3000 stars and then the last one is Scaffold. >> Great stuff, I love the programmability, automation. >> And one of the things that we mentioned before, because when people hear proxy, they think of the old time, actually when you've used a proxy and a DNS which now it's very high performance and one of the things that you're seeing also, it connects up with other open source projects such as FDIO which is VPP, which is now being used, integrated into envoy which is a proxy, so the data plane itself, I think is going to be more efficient than people trying to do their own network. >> That's a good point Lew, I mean people think proxies are inefficient, it's a hack, a bridge between point A and point B. >> Yes, that was a lot of the initial skepticism around this, so you know, this was about two years ago we were sitting around saying okay, Kubernetes, what's next? And we came up with a open service broker, so you can consume services and then the early start of Istio, starting with Envoy and then building the service mesh around that and that was indeed one of the early concerns as well, will it be too heavy, will it add latency, will there be performance bottle neck, I think a lot of that concern has been addressed and it will continue to be addressed. >> Well we got to wrap up be I want to get some comments from you guys, reaction to the show here in Europe, obviously Google is in big force, Istio is prime time, you predicted that in Austin, it looks like it's tracking beautifully, reactions, what did you walk away with here from this event? What observations, revelations, surprises, share some color for the folks that couldn't make it. >> We were talking earlier about the number of use cases now that we've seen that our customers are coming in and describing how they're using Kubernetes and other of the technologies making up the cloud native world. And that allows people to learn and so that's what I'm always excited, because I can sit there in the audience and you can see everybody else going oh, I'm going to apply that to what I'm trying to do and just the breath now of-- >> John: So you're surprised at the uptake, or you're happy with the uptake, that's your reaction? >> Yeah and I think you would agree too. >> Yeah, I think the reason I come to KubeCon is to meet users, it's a user conference, and with each passing KubeCon, it becomes more and more user-centric so some of the talks here, the takeaways that I had, you know the folks from Spotify talked about how users need to get more involved and the benefits of getting more involved in the community, that was a very inspiring talk. Another talk yesterday talked about how Kubernetes needs to be a platform for everything, not just cloud native, but actually also Legacy and so these are points. And then the third piece, a lot of users talking about multicloud, right and making that a reality, these are things that I'm taking away as you know, users are doing this today. >> John: Multicloud certainly is a path, people have that outcome in mind. >> Yes. >> Doing the work now to get there. Thanks for coming on, Aparna and Lew. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you guys, you're awesome, senior folks in the industry, experienced executives, driving the change here, cloud native, microservices architecture, whole new modern paradigm shift in software architecture, here at KubeCon, Kubernetes, Istio, hot projects, Cube Flow and more here on the Cube, live coverage here in Copenhagen, stay with us for more coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE live in Austin, Texas for our exclusive coverage at the CloudNative Conference and KubeCon with Kubernetes via theCUBE. theCUBE which we're live, and 8 years running, I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE Media, my colleague, Stu Miniman. And I'm excited to have Cube alumni, and its distinguished industry legend, Lew Tucker, Vice President CT of Cloud Computing at Cisco Systems. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Great to be back, it's one of my favorite shows. >> Lou, we've had many conversations over the years, and it's always great to have you on because you're on the cutting-edge perspective, but you have a historical view as well, you've seen many waves of innovation. And obviously you own lots of property in the Computer's History museum, your resume goes on and on. But, you got to admire this community. Three years old, it was you, me and JJ we're sitting around at OpenStack in Vancouver three and a half years ago, having a beer after the event one of these days, and we were talking about Kubernetes, and we were really riffing on orchestration and kind of shooting the arrow forward, kind of reading the tea leaves. And we were predicting inter-clouding, inter-networking, Cisco core competency, the notion of application developers wanting infrastructure as code. We didn't actually say mircoservices but we were kind of describing a world that would be microservices, and this awesomeness that's going on with the Cloud. What a ... [Lew] You were right. You were right. >> We were right, it wasn't me, it was the community. This is how communities operate. >> It is. I think that what we're seeing, and particularly in these open source communities, you're getting the best ideas. And therefore, a lot of people are looking at this future space, and then we bring the kids out of the communities, get the projects that we work together on it, and that's how we move it forward. >> You've been a great leader in the community, just want to give you some props for that, you deserve it, but more importantly is just the momentum going on right now. And I want to get your take, you're squinting through the growth, you're looking at the innovation, looking at the big picture, certainly from a Cisco perspective, but also as an industry participant. Where's the action? Obviously containers grew, that tide came in, a lot of boats floated up. We saw microservices boom, then we now, Kubernetes' getting better and better, multiple versions, it's - some say commoditized, some would say more inter-operable. Really, that's the connection tissue for multi-cloud. >> Exactly right. >> Do you see the same thing? Where's the action? >> So, cloud computing is going everywhere now. And so it's natural that we see one of the next phases of this is in the area of multi-cloud. The customers, they are in public cloud, they have private data centers where they want to run similar applications. They don't want to have a completely different environment. What they really want to see is a consistent environment across which they can deploy applications. And that consistent environment also has to have security policies, authentication services, and a lot of these things. And to really drive the innovation, what I find interesting is that, the services that are coming now out of public cloud, whether it be an AI or server list, event-driven kind of programming models. Enterprises want to connect into them. And so one of the things I think that that leads to is that you're beginning to hear talk now, just beginning to hear it, which is this project called Istio. Which is a service mesh, because what that really allows -- >> John: What's the project name? >> It's called Istio? >> John: Istio. >> Lew: I-S-T-I-O. >> Okay. >> dot I-O. Everything is open source, it's a project that's contributed to by Google, and IBM, and Lyft, and now Cisco's getting involved in it, as well. And what it really plays into is this world of multi-cloud. That now we can actually access services in the public cloud from your own private data center, or from the public running applications in a public cloud, you can access services that are back in your data center. So it's really about this kind of application-level networking stack, that means that application developers can now off-load all of that heavy work to a service mesh, and therefore that'll accelerate application development. >> So it's interesting, I heard some talk about things like Envoy edge and service proxies, and service proxies have been a nice tool to kind of cobble together old legacy stuff, but now you're seeing stuff go to the next level. This data I heard in the keynote, I want to get your reaction 'cause this kind of jumps out at me. Lyft had created a mesh over hundreds of thousands of services over millions of transactions per second. Lyft. Uber's got some stuff on the monitoring side, Google's donated - This is large scale cloud guys who had to build their own stuff with open source, now contributing all this stuff back. This is the mesh you're talking about, correct? >> This is exactly right, yes. Because what we're seeing is, we've talked about micro services, and Kubernetes is about orchestration of containers. And that has accelerated application development and deploying it. But now the services, each one of those services still has all of this networking stuff they have to deal with. They have to deal with load balancing, they have to deal with retries, they have to deal with authentication. So instead, what is happening now, we're recognizing these common patterns, this is what the community does (mumbles). You see a common pattern, you abstract it, and you push that out into what is known as side cars now, so that the application developer doesn't have to -- the application doesn't get changed when you need to change, like, 'bring up a couple more services over here' 'put this on a different cloud'. The individual components now are unaffected by that, because all of that work has been offloaded into a service mesh. >> Lew, bring us inside a little bit. Dig into that next level of kind of networking. 'Cause you speak, kind of networking administrator, running around the data center, you get everything from pulling cables to zoning and everything like that. Now it's multi-cloud, multi-service, everything's faster. Through all the architect, the person running it, automation ... We don't have an hour, but give us a little bit about what it means to be a networking person these days. >> Well, it's interesting, because one of the things that we know application developers did not want to become, is to be a network engineer. And yet to do a lot of what they had to do, they had to learn a lot of those skills. And instead they would rather set things up by policy. For example, they would like to be able to say, 'if I'm deploying now the version two of my application', it's a classic thing we talk about in this deal, 'the next version we want to just direct' '5% of the traffic to it, make sure it's okay' 'before we turn over the whole thing.' You should be able to do that at the application level, and through a service mesh that is built in networking at the application level, the application guys can do it. Now the role of the network engineer is still the same, they have to provide the basic infrastructure to allow that to happen. And for example, a lot of the infrastructure now is extending the Cloud from public cloud through the cloud BPM services that they have back into the data center. So Cisco, for example, is putting technologies that are running at AWS and at Google, and Azure, that allows that to come back into the data center. So we can run Cisco virtual routers in the Cloud, connected back up in the data center. So their standard networking policy that the networking engineers really want to see enforced, they can be assured that that's enforced, and then Istio layers on top of it. >> And that's decoupled from the application. >> Right. Right. >> This is what we've been talking about since 2010, our eighth year of theCUBE, infrastructure as code. This is what DevOps was all about, and now it's evolving mainstream. >> Absolutely right. You really want infrastructure to be as boring as possible. And capable and then secure. And now give a lot more control over to the application developer. And we also know, right now it's really based largely on Kubernetes, it's a great example, but that will connect into virtual machines, it will connect into legacy services. So all of this has to do with connecting all of those pieces that are today in an enterprise, moving to a public cloud. And that transition doesn't happen wholesale. You move a couple over. >> Lew, one thing. I want you to look back, John talked about - We interviewed a bunch of years in OpenStack. What's your take on the role of OpenStack today, is there still a roll in OpenStack, and how's that kind of compare/contrast to what we're doing here? >> Happy to answer, because I actually am on both boards, I'm on the CNCF board and I'm on the OpenStack board, and I have contributors on my teams to both efforts across the board. And I think that the role that we're seeing of OpenStack is Openstack is evolving also, and it's becoming more embracive and it's becoming about open infrastructure. And it's really about, how do you create these open infrastructure plays. So it is about virtual machines, and containers, and bare metal, and setting up of those services. So Kubernetes works just great on top of OpenStack, and so now people get to have a choice, because one of the hard things I think for, mostly enterprise developers and everything else, is that the pace is changing so fast. So how do they try out some of the newer technologies that still can be connected back into the existing legacy systems? And that's why I think that we're seeing the role for OpenStack is to make that, you can put it with virtual machines, you can stand them up in there, and you can have the same virtual machines essentially running in the Cloud. >> So virtual machines versus other approaches has come up as a trade off, we heard in the keynote, between cost - I mean, speed, and security. Security's super important. So let me get your thoughts on how that plays out, because we've got the pluggable logger tech, which is another big theme we heard in the keynote, which is essentially just meaning, having a very focused, leverageable piece of code that can be connected into Kubernetes. But with VM's now, some are saying VM's are slow when you're trying to do security, but you want slow, boring when you need it, but you want speed and secure when you need it, too. How do you get both out of that? >> Without being too geeky in terms of, a virtual machine is emulating an entire computer. And so it looks like a computer, so you're running your traditional applications on top of a virtual machine. The same as they would if they were running on what we call, bare metal machine. So that is by necessity, much heavier. You're bringing around a whole operating system and things like that. Containers -- >> And there's a role for that, too. >> There's absolutely a role for that. >> Now containers? >> But containers, then, are really much more about, it's an application packaging exercise, so that you can say, 'I'm going to run this application, I just want all its dependencies packaged up.' I'll assume there's an operating system there. I'm going to count on the fact that there's a single operating system. So you can spin up containers, they're much more lightweight, much more quickly. And now there's even things such as Kata Containers that are coming out of Intel, which is now merging those technologies. >> Male: The clear containers. >> Clear containers, they came originally Clear Containers, and now it's merging, because we're saying, 'we want the security and the protection that you get' 'with a virtual machine, tied into, like the VTX' 'instruction set, in the hardware'. So you can get that level of security, assurances, but now you get the speed of containers. So, I think we're continuing to see the whole community evolving in this direction and making things easier for application developers, faster to do. They're increasing in scale, so management and orchestration - we talked about that three years ago, that that would be a big issue, and guess what? Of course it is. That's exactly what Kubernetes is addressing. >> And the role of the data is going to be critical, this is where a lot of people in the enterprise that we talked to, love the story, they love the narrative, but they're hearing things that they've never heard before and they kind of, slow down. So I'd like you to take a minute, Lew, and explain to the person watching, CIO, chief architect, network guy, whatever - what the hell is this Kubernetes hubbub about? What is Kubernetes, from your perspective? How would you wrap that up and describe the, what it is, and the impact to the customer? >> So, formally it's an orchestration of the container. So what that means is that, when you're developing an application, if you want it to be resilient, you want several instances of that application running, and you want traffic, then, to be low-balanced across it. Kubernetes provides that level of orchestration, to make sure there's always three running. If one fails, it can bring up another one. And it can do that completely automated. So it's a layer that really manages the deployment of containers. As an application developer, you still write your application, you package it up into a container, could be a doc or a container, and then you deploy it using Kubernetes in there. What is interesting, and I think that this is what we've recognized in this last year, I think, is that Kubernetes has a very simple networking model. Which is basically that of having a way to load-balance across multiple containers and keep them running. If you have anything more complicated about different services that you want to talk to from those containers, that may be different places in the universe, we don't have a mechanism for doing that. And everybody was having to write their own. So again, that's where the idea of a service mesh, STF -- >> John: That's where the meshing comes in. >> That's where the mesh ... >> Hundreds and hundreds of services. >> Lynkerd has been doing it for a while, Envoy. >> And Lyft and Uber, they had to do it because they had massive explosion of devices. >> Right, exactly right. And so that's why getting together the code from Lyft and Envoy, adding a control plane to it, which is what Istio really is about, brings that out, too. >> Sounds like an operating system to me, but Lew I one more question for you. You mentioned in, as you described it, Kubernetes, isn't that auto-scaling? If I'm familiar with AWS, isn't that just auto-scaling? Or is it auto-scaling for application instances? Or is auto-scaling more - defined differently? >> It does do the scaling part, it does the resiliency part, but it has a very simple model for that. And that's why you need to have other - but it's a beginning of that orchestration layer. >> Because at the container level, it has all those inherent problems. >> Right. And it can make sure to keep those containers alive and well, and manage the life cycle. >> John: And that's the difference. >> And that's the real difference. Whereas the auto-scaling from Amazon, as a service, is purely a networking capability then tied into bringing up new instances. >> So this is like auto-scaling on steroids. >> It is. But one of the differences also is that Kubernetes and what we're doing here is all open source. So you can run it anywhere. You don't get, a lot of people are very concerned about being locked in to, it used to be, you were locked into Oracle, or to Microsoft, or Java, on premise of things like that. >> Whatever proprietary operating system. >> And now they have concern being locked into these services that are in the public cloud providers. And what we're seeing now with Kubernetes and we're seeing in almost everything around here, by open sourcing them, the advantage is now the enterprise can run the same technology inside, without being locked into a vendor, as they do in the public cloud. >> Lew, so we spent a bunch of time talking about multi-cloud. Some of the more interesting pieces is what's happening at the edge, and IOT. We've heard Cisco talking about it for many years, networking of course important. What's your take, what are you working on, with regards to that these days. >> There's a couple new trends that we've been, IOT is actually now really getting realized, I think, because it is pushing a lot of the computing out to the edge, whether it be in cell phone towers or base stations, retail stores, that kind of edge. At the same time, we're seeing this multi-cloud that we want the big services. If I want to use a machine learning service, I want to use it up in the cloud, and I need to now connect it back to those devices. So multi-cloud is really about, addressing how do you develop applications that run across multiple, in the cloud, on the edge, in an IOT device. There's also, I think you've probably been hearing, server lists, and function as a service. These are, again, a lighter weight way to have kind of an event-driven model, so that if you have an IOT device and it just causes an event, you want to be able to spawn essentially a service, in the cloud, that only runs to process that one event, and then it goes away. So you're not paying to run instances of virtual machines or whatever, sitting there waiting for some event. You get a trigger, and you only pay - so it has this micro-billing capability as a part of it - so that you just can use only the resources. We finally realized the promise that we always had in cloud computing, which is that, pay for only what you need, for what you use. And so this is another way to do that. >> Lew, it's great to have you on theCUBE again, good to see you, great to get the update. I'd like to ask you one more final question to end the segment here. You always have your ear to the ground, reading the tea leaves, you have a unique skill to understand the tech at the root level. What's coming next? If we go back and we have these nice conversations where we're riffing on what's coming out in the next two, three years. It's unclear to some of the visionaries out there, so I got to ask you, what's going to be hot, what do you see emerging? As we saw Kubernetes and discussed, we couldn't have predicted this, I couldn't have. I knew it was going to be hot, I knew it was going to be big, but not this big, changing industry. What do you see out there? What would be the conversation you'd say, 'You know, we've got to watch this,' 'this is going to be a value creation opportunity,' 'enabling technology that's going to make a lot of things' 'flow nicely' - what kind of tech should ... >> Well, it may be a trite answer, 'cause I think a lot of people are seeing the same thing, is that we're actually laying the groundwork here, when we talk about multi-cloud, things that are distributed across multiple things. Accessing different services. I'm still a big believer in, it's going to be in the strength of those services. Whether they be speech-translation services, whether they be recommendation engine, whether it means big data services. Access to those services is what's going to be important. Three or four years from now, we're going to be talking about the intelligence -- >> Without a lot of heavy lifting to integrate it. >> Yes, that's exactly the point. We want it so that somebody can almost visually wire up these things, and take advantage of tremendously powerful machine-learning algorithms. That they don't want to have to hire the machine-learning experts to do it, they want to use that as a service. >> Slinging API, slinging services, wiring things up, sounds like it's an operating system to me. >> It's always an operating system at the end of the day. >> Lew Tucker, Vice President and CTO at Cisco Systems. Industry legend, on the board of CNCF, the fastest-growing organization, where projects equal products equals profit, and of course the OpenStack. Lew, thanks for coming on theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, back here live in Austin for more live coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, after this short break. >> Lew: Thank you.