>>welcome back everyone to the cube con cloud, David Kahn coverage. I'm john for a host of the cube, we're here in person, 2020 20 a real event, it's a hybrid event, we're streaming live to you with all the great coverage and guests coming on next three days. Clayton Coleman's chief Hybrid cloud architect for Red Hat is joining me here to go over viewers talk but also talk about hybrid cloud. Multi cloud where it's all going road red hats doing great to see you thanks coming on. It's a pleasure to be >>back. It's a pleasure to be back in cuba con. >>Uh it's an honor to have you on as a chief architect at Red Hat on hybrid cloud. It is the hottest area in the market right now. The biggest story we were back in person. That's the biggest story here. The second biggest story, that's the most important story is hybrid cloud. And what does it mean for multi cloud, this is a key trend. You just gave a talk here. What's your take on it? You >>know, I, I like to summarize hybrid cloud as the answer to. It's really the summarization of yes please more of everything, which is, we don't have one of anything. Nobody has got any kind of real footprint is single cloud. They're not single framework, they're not single language, they're not single application server, they're not single container platform, they're not single VM technology. And so, um, and then, you know, looking around here in this, uh, partner space where eight years into kubernetes and there is an enormous ecosystem of tools, technologies, capabilities, add ons, plug ins components that make our applications better. Um the modern application landscape is so huge that I think that's what hybrid really is is it's we've got all these places to run stuff more than ever and we've got all this stuff to run more than ever and it doesn't slow down. So how do we bring sanity to that? How do we understand it? Bring it together and companies has been a big part of that, like it unlocked some of that. What's the next step? >>Yeah, that's a great, great commentary. I want to take into the kubernetes piece but you know, as we've been reporting the digital transformation at all time, high speed is the number one request. People want to go faster, not just speeds and feeds, but like ship code fast to build apps faster. Make it all run faster and secure. Okay, check, get that. Look what we were 15, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, 2016. The first coupe con in Seattle we were there for small events kubernetes, we gotta sell it, figure it out. Right convince people >>that it's a it's worth >>it. Yeah. So what's your take on that? Well, I mean, it's mature, it's kind of de facto standard at this point. What's missing. Where is it? >>So I think Kubernetes has succeeded at the core mission which is helping us stop worrying about all the problems that we spent endless amounts of time arguing about, how do I deploy software, How do I roll it out? But in the meantime we've added more types of software. You know, the rise of ai ml um you know, the whole the whole ecosystem around training software models like what is a what is an Ai model? Is it look like an application, does it look like a job? It's part batch, part service. Um It's spread out to the edge. We've added mobile devices. The explosion in mobile computing over the last 10 years has co evolved. And so kubernetes succeeded at that kind of set a floor for what everybody thought was an application. And in the meantime we've added all these other parts of the application. >>It's funny, you know, David Anthony, we're talking about what's to minimum and networks at red hat will be on later. Back in the first two cubicles were like, you know, this is like a TCP I P moment, the Os I model that was a killer part of the stack. Now it was all standardized below TCP I. P. Company feels like a similar kind of construct where it's unifying, is creating some enablement, It's enabling some innovation and it kind of brought everyone together at the same time everyone realized that that's real, >>the whole >>cloud native is real. And now we're in an era now where people are talking about doing things that are completely different. You mentioned as a batch job house ai new software paradigm development paradigms, not to suffer during the lifecycle, but just like software development in general is impacted. >>Absolutely. And you know, the components like, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about how to test and build application, but those are things that we all kind of internalized now we we have seen the processes is critical because it's going to be in lots of places, people are looking to standardize. But sometimes the new technology comes up alongside the side, the thing we're trying to standardize, we're like, well let's just use the new technology instead function as a service is kind of uh it came up, you know, kubernetes group K Native. And then you see, you know, the proliferation of functions as a service choices, what do people use? So there's a lot of choice and we're all building on those common layers, but everybody kind of has their own opinions, everybody's doing something subtly different. >>Let me ask you your opinion on on more under the Hood kind of complexity challenge. There's general consensus in the industry that does a lot of complexity. Okay, you don't mean debate that, but that's in a way, a good thing in the sense if you solve that, that's where innovation comes in. So the goal is to solve complexity, abstract out of the heavy lifting under heavy living in Sandy Jackson. And I would say, or abstract away complexity make things easier to use >>Well and an open source and this ecosystem is an amazing um it's one of the most effective methods we've ever found for trying every possible solution and keeping the five or six most successful and that's a little bit like developers, developers flow downhill, developers are going to do, it's easy if it's easier to put a credit card in and go to the public cloud, you're gonna do it if you can take control away from the teams at your organization that are there to protect you, but maybe aren't as responsive as you like. People will, people will go around those. And so I think a little bit of what we're trying to do is what are the commonalities that we could pick out of this ecosystem that everybody agrees on and make those the downhill path that people follow, not putting a credit card into a cloud, but offering a way for you not to think about what clouds are on until you need to write, because you want to go to the fridge is a developer, you wanna go the fridge, pull out your favorite brand of soda, that favorite band Isoda might have an AWS label also >>talk about the open shift and the Kubernetes relationship, you guys push the boundaries. Um Den is being controlled playing and nodes, these are things that you talked about in your talk, talk about because you guys made some good bets on open shift, we've been covering that, how's that playing out now? It's a relationship now >>is interesting coming into kubernetes, we came in from the platform as a service angle, right, Platform as a service was the first iteration of trying to make the lowest cost path for developers to flow to business value um and so we added things on top of kubernetes, we knew that we were going to complex, so we built in a little bit um in our structure and our way of thinking about cube that it was never going to be just that basic bare bones package that you're gonna have to make choices for people that made sense. Ah obviously as the ecosystems grown, we've tried to grow with it, we've tried to be a layer above kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer in between kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer underneath kubernetes and all of these are valid places to be. Um I think that next step is we're all kind of asking, you know, we've got all this stuff, are there any ways that we can be more efficient? So I like to think about practical benefits, what is a practical benefit That a little bit of opinion nation could bring to this ecosystem and I think it's around applications, it's being application centric, it's what is a team, 90% of the time need to be successful, they need a way to get their code out, they need to get it to the places that they wanted to be, and that place is everywhere. It's not one cloud or on premises or a data center, it's the edge, it's running as a lambda. It's running inside devices that might be being designed in this very room today. >>It's interesting. You know, you're an architect, but also the computer science industry is the people who were trained in the area are learning. It's pretty fascinating and almost intoxicating right now in this this market because you have an operating system, dynamic systems kind of programming model with distributed cloud, edge on fire, that's only gonna get more complicated with 5G and high density data applications. Um and then you've got this changing modal mode of operations were programming with bots and Ai and machine learning to new things, but it's kind of the same distributed computing paradigm. Yeah. What's your reaction to that? >>Well, and it's it's interesting. I was kind of described like layers. We've gone from Lenox replaced proprietary UNIX or mainframe to virtualization, which, and then we had a lot of Lennox, we had some windows too. And then we moved to public cloud and private cloud. We brought config management and moved to kubernetes, um we still got that. Os at the heart of what we do. We've got, uh application libraries and we've shared services and common services. I think it's interesting like to learn from Lennox's lesson, which is we want to build an open expansive ecosystem, You're kind of like kind of like what's going on. We want to pick enough opinion nation that it just works because I think just works is what, let's be honest, like we could come up with all the great theories of what the right way computers should be done, but it's gonna be what's easy, what gets people help them get their jobs done, trying to time to take that from where people are today on cube in cloud, on multiple clouds, give them just a little bit more consolidation. And I think it's a trick people or convince people by showing them how much easier it could be. >>You know, what's interesting around um, what you guys have done a red hat is that you guys have real customers are demanding, you have enterprise customers. So you have your eye on the front edge of the, of the bleeding edge, making things easier. And I think that's good enough is a good angle, but let's, let's face it, people are just lifting and shifting to the cloud now. They haven't yet re factored and re factoring is a concept of taking what you're doing in the cloud of taking advantage of new services to change the operating dynamic and value proposition of say the application. So the smart money is all going there, seeing the funding come into applications that are leveraging the new platform? Re platform and then re factoring what's your take on that because you got the edge, you have other things happening. >>There are so many more types of applications today. And it's interesting because almost all of them start with real practical problems that enterprises or growing tech companies or companies that aren't tech companies but have a very strong tech component. Right? That's the biggest transformation the last 15 years is that you can be a tech company without ever calling yourself a tech company because you have a website and you have an upset and your entire business model flows like that. So there is, I think pragmatically people are, they're okay with their footprint where it is. They're looking to consolidate their very interested in taking advantage of the scale that modern cloud offers them and they're trying to figure out how to bring all the advantages that they have in these modern technologies to these new footprints and these new form factors that they're trying to fit into, whether that's an application running on the edge next to their load bouncer in a gateway, in telco five Gs happening right now. Red hat's been really heavily involved in a telco ecosystem and it's kubernetes through and through its building on those kinds of principles. What are the concepts that help make a hybrid application, an application that spans the data flowing from a device back to the cloud, out to a Gateway processed by a big data system in a private region, someplace where computers cheap can't >>be asylum? No, absolutely not has to be distributed non siloed based >>and how do we do that and keep security? How do we help you track where your data is and who's talking to whom? Um there's a lot of, there's a lot of people here today who are helping people connect. I think that next step that contact connectivity, the knowing who's talking and how they're connecting, that'll be a fundamental part of what emerges as >>that's why I think the observe ability to me is the data is really about a data funding a new data sector of the market that's going to be addressable. I think data address ability is critical. Clayton really appreciate you coming on. And giving a perspective an expert in the field. I gotta ask you, you know, I gotta say from a personal standpoint how open source has truly been a real enabler. You look at how fast new things could come in and be adopted and vetted and things get kicked around people try stuff that fails, but it's they they build on each other. Right? So a I for example, it's just a great example of look at what machine learning and AI is going on, how fast that's been adopted. Absolutely. I don't think that would be done in open source. I have to ask you guys at red hat as you continue your mission and with IBM with that partnership, how do you see people participating with you guys? You're here, you're part of the ecosystem, big player, how you guys continue to work with the community? Take a minute to share what you're working on. >>So uh first off, it's impossible to get anything done I think in this ecosystem without being open first. Um and that's something the red at and IBM are both committed to. A lot of what I try to do is I try to map from the very complex problems that people bring to us because every problem in applications is complex at some later and you've got to have the expertise but there's so much expertise. So you got to be able to blend the experts in a particular technology, the experts in a particular problem domain like the folks who consult or contract or helped design some of these architectures or have that experience at large companies and then move on to advise others and how to proceed. And then you have to be able to take those lessons put them in technology and the technology has to go back and take that feedback. I would say my primary goal is to come to these sorts of events and to share what everyone is facing because if we as a group aren't all working at some level, there won't be the ability of those organizations to react because none of us know the whole stack, none of us know the whole set of details >>And this text changing too. I mean you got to get a reference to a side while it's more than 80s metaphor. But you know, but that changed the game on proprietary and that was like >>getting it allows us to think and to separate. You know, you want to have nice thin layers that the world on top doesn't worry about below except when you need to and below program you can make things more efficient and public cloud, open source kubernetes and the proliferation of applications on top That's happening today. I >>mean Palmer gets used to talk about the hardened top when he was the VM ware Ceo Back in 2010. Remember him saying that he says she predicted >>the whole, we >>call it the mainframe in the cloud at the time because it was a funny thing to say, but it was really a computer. I mean essentially distributed nature of the cloud. It happened. Absolutely. Clayton, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing your insights appreciate. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Right click here on the Cuban john furry. You're here live in L A for coupon cloud native in person. It's a hybrid event was streaming Also going to the cube platform as well. Check us out there all the interviews. Three days of coverage, we'll be right back Yeah. Mm mm mm I have

>>mhm Yes, Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual, which we were in person this year but we're still remote. We still got the Covid coming around the corner. Soon to be in post. Covid got a great guest here, Clayton Coleman architect that red hat cuba love and I've been on many times expanded role again this year. More cloud, more cloud action. Great, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>It's a pleasure >>to be here. So great to see you were just riffing before we came on camera about distributed computing uh and the future of the internet, how it's all evolving, how much fun it is, how it's all changing still. The game is still the same, all that good stuff. But here at Red had some and we're gonna get into that, but I want to just get into the hard news and the real big, big opportunities here you're announcing with red hat new managed cloud services portfolio, take us through that. >>Sure. We're continuing to evolve our open shift managed offerings which has grown now to include um the redhead open shift service on amazon to complement our as your redhead open shift service. Um that means that we have um along with our partnership on IBM cloud and open ship dedicated on both a W S and G C P. We now have um managed open shift on all of the major clouds. And along with that we are bringing in and introducing the first, I think really the first step what we see as uh huh growing and involving the hybrid cloud ecosystem on top of open shift and there's many different ways to slice that, but it's about bringing capabilities on top of open shift in multiple environments and multiple clouds in ways that make developers and operation teams more productive because at the heart of it, that's our goal for open shift. And the broader, open source ecosystem is do what makes all of us safer, more, uh, more productive and able to deliver business value? >>Yeah. And that's a great steak you guys put in the ground. Um, and that's great messaging, great marketing, great value proposition. I want to dig into a little bit with you. I mean, you guys have, I think the only native offering on all the clouds out there that I know of, is that true? I mean, you guys have, it's not just, you know, you support AWS as your and I B M and G C P, but native offerings. >>We do not have a native offering on GCPD offered the same service. And this is actually interesting as we've evolved our approach. You know, everyone, when we talk about hybrid, Hybrid is, um, you know, dealing with the realities of the computing world, We live in, um, working with each of the major clouds, trying to deliver the best immigration possible in a way that drives that consistency across those environments. And so actually are open shift dedicated on AWS service gave us the inspiration a lot of the basic foundations for what became the integrated Native service. And we've worked with amazon very closely to make sure that that does the right thing for customers who have chosen amazon. And likewise, we're trying to continue to deliver the best experience, the best operational reliability that we can so that the choice of where you run your cloud, um, where you run your applications, um, matches the decisions you've already made and where your future investments are gonna be. So we want to be where customers are, but we also want to give you that consistency. That has been a hallmark of um of open shift since the beginning. >>Yeah. And thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that because the manage serves on GCB rest or native. Um let me ask about the application services because Jeff Barr from AWS posted a few weeks ago amazon celebrated their 15th birthday. They're still teenagers uh relatively speaking. But one comment he made that he that was interesting to me. And this applies kind of this cloud native megatrend happening is he says the A. P. I. S are basically the same and this brings up the hybrid environment. You guys are always been into the api side of the management with the cloud services and supporting all that. As you guys look at this ecosystem in open source. How is the role of A PS and these integrations? Because without solid integration all these services could break down and certainly the open source, more and more people are coding. So take me through how you guys look at these applications services because many people are predicting more service is going to be on boarding faster than ever before. >>It's interesting. So um for us working across multiple cloud environments, there are many similarities in those mps, but for every similarity there is a difference and those differences are actually what dr costs and drive complexity when you're integrating. Um and I think a lot of the role of this is, you know, the irresponsible to talk about the role of an individual company in the computing ecosystem moving to cloud native because as many of these capabilities are unlocked by large cloud providers and transformations in the kinds of software that we run at scale. You know, everybody is a participant in that. But then you look at the broad swath of developer and operator ecosystem and it's the communities of people who paper over those differences, who write run books and build um you know, the policies and who build the experience and the automation. Um not just in individual products or an individual clouds, but across the open source ecosystem. Whether it's technologies like answerable or Terror form, whether it's best practices websites around running kubernetes, um every every part of the community is really involved in driving up uh driving consistency, um driving predictability and driving reliability and what we try to do is actually work within those constraints um to take the ecosystem and to push it a little bit further. So the A. P. I. S. May be similar, but over time those differences can trip you up. And a lot of what I think we talked about where the industry is going, where where we want to be is everyone ultimately is going to own some responsibility for keeping their services running and making sure that their applications and their businesses are successful. The best outcome would be that the A. P. R. S are the same and they're open and that both the cloud providers and the open source ecosystem and vendors and partners who drive many of these open source communities are actually all working together to have the most consistent environment to make portability a true strength. But when someone does differentiate and has a true best to bring service, we don't want to build artificial walls between those. I mean, I mean, that's hybrid cloud is you're going to make choices that make sense for you if we tell people that their choices don't work or they can't integrate or, you know, an open source project doesn't support this vendor, that vendor, we're actually leaving a lot of the complexity buried in those organizations. So I think this is a great time to, as we turn over for cloud. Native looking at how we, as much as possible try to drive those ap is closer together and the consistency underneath them is both a community and a vendor. And uh for red hat, it's part of what we do is a core mission is trying to make sure that that consistency is actually real. You don't have to worry about those details when you're ignoring them. >>That's a great point. Before I get into some architectural impact, I want to get your thoughts on um, the, this trends going on, Everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know, you say, oh yeah, I gotta, I want a data cloud, you know, everything is like the new, you know, they saw Snowflake Apollo, I gotta have some, I got some of that data, You've got streaming data services, you've got data services and native into the, these platforms. But a lot of these companies think it's just, you're just gonna get a data cloud, just, it's so easy. Um, they might try something and then they get stuck with it or they have to re factor, >>how do you look >>at that as an architect when you have these new hot trends like say a data cloud, how should customers be thinking about kicking the tires on services like that And how should they think holistically around architect in that? >>There's a really interesting mindset is, uh, you know, we deal with this a lot. Everyone I talked to, you know, I've been with red hat for 10 years now in an open shift. All 10 years of that. We've gone through a bunch of transformations. Um, and every time I talked to, you know, I've talked to the same companies and organizations over the last 10 years, each point in their evolution, they're making decisions that are the right decision at the time. Um, they're choosing a new capability. So platform as a service is a great example of a capability that allowed a lot of really large organizations to standardize. Um, that ties into digital transformation. Ci CD is another big trend where it's an obvious wind. But depending on where you jumped on the bandwagon, depending on when you adopted, you're going to make a bunch of different trade offs. And that, that process is how do we improve the ability to keep all of the old stuff moving forward as well? And so open api is open standards are a big part of that, but equally it's understanding the trade offs that you're going to make and clearly communicating those so with data lakes. Um, there was kind of the 1st and 2nd iterations of data lakes, there was the uh, in the early days these capabilities were knew they were based around open source software. Um, a lot of the Hadoop and big data ecosystem, you know, started based on some of these key papers from amazon and google and others taking infrastructure ideas bringing them to scale. We went through a whole evolution of that and the input and the output of that basically let us into the next phase, which I think is the second phase of data leak, which is we have this data are tools are so much better because of that first phase that the investments we made the first time around, we're going to have to pay another investment to make that transformation. And so I've actually, I never want to caution someone not to jump early, but it has to be the right jump and it has to be something that really gives you a competitive advantage. A lot of infrastructure technology is you should make the choices that you make one or two big bets and sometimes people say this, you call it using their innovation tokens. You need to make the bets on big technologies that you operate more effectively at scale. It is somewhat hard to predict that. I certainly say that I've missed quite a few of the exciting transformations in the field just because, um, it wasn't always obvious that it was going to pay off to the degree that um, customers would need. >>So I gotta ask you on the real time applications side of it, that's been a big trend, certainly in cloud. But as you look at hybrid hybrid cloud environments, for instance, streaming data has been a big issue. Uh any updates there from you on your managed service? >>That's right. So one of we have to manage services um that are both closely aligned three managed services that are closely aligned with data in three different ways. And so um one of them is redhead open shift streams for Apache Kafka, which is managed cloud service that focuses on bringing that streaming data and letting you run it across multiple environments. And I think that, you know, we get to the heart of what's the purpose of uh managed services is to reduce operational overhead and to take responsibilities that allow users to focus on the things that actually matter for them. So for us, um managed open shift streams is really about the flow of data between applications in different environments, whether that's from the edge to an on premise data center, whether it's an on premise data center to the cloud. And increasingly these services which were running in the public cloud, increasingly these services have elements that run in the public cloud, but also key elements that run close to where your applications are. And I think that bridge is actually really important for us. That's a key component of hybrid is connecting the different locations and different footprints. So for us the focus is really how do we get data moving to the right place that complements our API management service, which is an add on for open ship dedicated, which means once you've brought the data and you need to expose it back out to other applications in the environment, you can build those applications on open shift, you can leverage the capabilities of open shift api management to expose them more easily, both to end customers or to other applications. And then our third services redhead open shift data science. Um and that is a, an integration that makes it easy for data scientists in a kubernetes environment. On open shift, they easily bring together the data to make, to analyze it and to help route it is appropriate. So those three facets for us are pretty important. They can be used in many different ways, but that focus on the flow of data across these different environments is really a key part of our longer term strategy. >>You know, all the customer checkboxes there you mentioned earlier. I mean I'll just summarize that that you said, you know, obviously value faster application velocity time to value. Those are like the checkboxes, Gardner told analysts check those lower complexity. Oh, we do the heavy lifting, all cloud benefits, so that's all cool. Everyone kind of gets that, everyone's been around cloud knows devops all those things come into play right now. The innovation focuses on operations and day to operations, becoming much more specific. When people say, hey, I've done some lift and shift, I've done some Greenfield born in the cloud now, it's like, whoa, this stuff, I haven't seen this before. As you start scaling. So this brings up that concept and then you add in multi cloud and hybrid cloud, you gotta have a unified experience. So these are the hot areas right this year, I would say, you know, that day to operate has been around for a while, but this idea of unification around environments to be fully distributed for developers is huge. >>How do you >>architect for that? This is the number one question I get. And I tease out when people are kind of talking about their environments that challenges their opportunities, they're really trying to architect, you know, the foundation that building to be um future proof, they don't want to get screwed over when they have, they realize they made a decision, they weren't thinking about day to operation or they didn't think about the unified experience across clouds across environments and services. This is huge. What's your take on this? >>So this is um, this is probably one of the hardest questions I think I could get asked, which is uh looking into the crystal ball, what are the aspects of today's environments that are accidental complexity? That's really just a result of the slow accretion of technologies and we all need to make bets when, when the time is right within the business, um and which parts of it are essential. What are the fundamental hard problems and so on. The accidental complexity side for red hat, it's really about um that consistent environment through open shift bringing capabilities, our connection to open source and making sure that there's an open ecosystem where um community members, users vendors can all work together to um find solutions that work for them because there's not, there's no way to solve for all of computing. It's just impossible. I think that is kind of our that's our development process and that's what helps make that accidental complexity of all that self away over time. But in the essential complexity data is tied the location, data has gravity data. Lakes are a great example of because data has gravity. The more data that you bring together, the bigger the scale the tools you can bring, you can invest in more specialized tools. I've almost do that as a specialization centralization. There's a ton of centralization going on right now at the same time that these new technologies are available to make it easier and easier. Whether that's large scale automation um with conflict management technologies, whether that's kubernetes and deploying it in multiple sites in multiple locations and open shift, bringing consistency so that you can run the apps the same way. But even further than that is concentrating, mhm. More of what would have typically been a specialist problem, something that you build a one off around in your organization to work through the problem. We're really getting to a point where pretty soon now there is a technology or a service for everyone. How do you get the data into that service out? How do you secure it? How do you glue it together? Um I think of, you know, some people might call this um you know, the ultimate integration problem, which is we're going to have all of this stuff and all of these places, what are the core concepts, location, security, placement, topology, latency, where data resides, who's accessing that data, We think of these as kind of the building blocks of where we're going next. So for us trying to make investments in, how do we make kubernetes work better across lots of environments. I have a coupon talk coming up this coupon, it's really exciting for me to talk about where we're going with, you know, the evolution of kubernetes, bringing the different pieces more closely together across multiple environments. But likewise, when we talk about our managed services, we've approached the strategy for managed services as it's not just the service in isolation, it's how it connects to the other pieces. What can we learn in the community, in our services, working with users that benefits that connectivity. So I mentioned the open shift streams connecting up environments, we'd really like to improve how applications connect across disparate environments. That's a fundamental property of if you're going to have data uh in one geographic region and you didn't move services closer to that well, those services I need to know and encode and have that behavior to get closer to where the data is, whether it's one data lake or 10. We gotta have that flexibility in place. And so those obstructions are really, and to >>your point about the building blocks where you've got to factor in those building blocks, because you're gonna need to understand the latency impact, that's going to impact how you're gonna handle the compute piece, that's gonna handle all these things are coming into play. So, again, if you're mindful of the building blocks, just as a cloud concept, um, then you're okay. >>We hear this a lot. Actually, there's real challenges in the, the ecosystem of uh, we see a lot of the problems of I want to help someone automate and improved, but the more balkanize, the more spread out, the more individual solutions are in play, it's harder for someone to bring their technology to bear to help solve the problem. So looking for ways that we can um, you know, grease the skids to build the glue. I think open source works best when it's defining de facto solutions that everybody agrees on that openness and the easy access is a key property that makes de facto standards emerged from open source. What can we do to grow defacto standards around multi cloud and application movement and application interconnect I think is a very, it's already happening and what can we do to accelerate it? That's it. >>Well, I think you bring up a really good point. This is probably a follow up, maybe a clubhouse talk or you guys will do a separate session on this. But I've been riffing on this idea of uh, today's silos, tomorrow's component, right, or module. If most people don't realize that these silos can be problematic if not thought through. So you have to kill the silos to bring in kind of an open police. So if you're open, not closed, you can leverage a monolith. Today's monolithic app or full stack could be tomorrow's building block unless you don't open up. So this is where interesting design question comes in, which is, it's okay to have pre existing stuff if you're open about it. But if you stay siloed, you're gonna get really stuck >>and there's going to be more and more pre existing stuff I think, you know, uh even the data lake for every day to lake, there is a huge problem of how to get data into the data lake or taking existing applications that came from the previous data link. And so there's a, there's a natural evolutionary process where let's focus on the mechanisms that actually move that day to get that data flowing. Um, I think we're still in the early phases of thinking about huge amounts of applications. Microservices or you know, 10 years old in the sense of it being a fairly common industry talking point before that we have service oriented architecture. But the difference now is that we're encouraging and building one developer, one team might run several services. They might use three or four different sas vendors. They might depend on five or 10 or 15 cloud services. Those integration points make them easier. But it's a new opportunity for us to say, well, what are the differences to go back to? The point is you can keep your silos, we just want to have great integration in and out of >>those. Exactly, they don't have to you have to break down the silos. So again, it's a tried and true formula integration, interoperability and abstracting away the complexity with some sort of new software abstraction layer. You bring that to play as long as you can paddle with that, you apply the new building blocks, you're classified. >>It sounds so that's so simple, doesn't it? It does. And you know, of course it'll take us 10 years to get there. And uh, you know, after cloud native will be will be galactic native or something like that. You know, there's always going to be a new uh concept that we need to work in. I think the key concepts we're really going after our everyone is trying to run resilient and reliable services and the clouds give us in the clouds take it away. They give us those opportunities to have some of those building blocks like location of geographic hardware resources, but they will always be data that spread. And again, you still have to apply those principles to the cloud to get the service guarantees that you need. I think there's a completely untapped area for helping software developers and software teams understand the actual availability and guarantees of the underlying environment. It's a property of the services you run with. If you're using a disk in a particular availability zone, that's a property of your application. I think there's a rich area that hasn't been mined yet. Of helping you understand what your effective service level goals which of those can be met. Which cannot, it doesn't make a lot of sense in a single cluster or single machine or a single location world the moment you start to talk about, Well I have my data lake. Well what are the ways my data leg can fail? How do we look at your complex web of interdependencies and say, well clearly if you lose this cloud provider, you're going to lose not just the things that you have running there, but these other dependencies, there's a lot of, there's a lot of next steps that we're just learning what happens when a major cloud goes down for a day or a region of a cloud goes down for a day. You still have to design and work around those >>cases. It's distributed computing. And again, I love the space where galactic cloud, you got SpaceX? Where's Cloud X? I mean, you know, space is the next frontier. You know, you've got all kinds of action happening in space. Great space reference there. Clayton, Great insight. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Clayton Coleman architect at red Hat. Clayton, Thanks for coming on. >>Pretty pleasure. >>Always. Great chat. I'm talking under the hood. What's going on in red hats? New managed cloud service portfolio? Again, the world's getting complex, abstract away. The complexities with software Inter operate integrate. That's the key formula with the cloud building blocks. I'm john ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>From around the globe covering Google cloud next. >>Hi, I'm Stu middleman and this is the cube coverage of Google cloud. Next, happy to welcome back to the program. One of our cube alumni, Clayton Coleman, he's the architect for Kubernetes and OpenShift with red hat Clayton. Thanks for joining us again. Great to see you. Good to see you. All right. So of course, one of the challenges in 2020 is we love to be able to get unity together. And while we can't do it physically, we do get to do it through all of the virtual events and online forum. Of course, you know, we had the cubit red hat summit cube con, uh, for the European show and now Google cloud. So, you know, give us kind of your, your state of the state 2020 Kubernetes. Of course it was Google, uh, taking the technology from Borg, a few people working on it, and, you know, just that this project that has just had massive impact on it. So, you know, where are with the community in Kubernetes today? >>So, uh, you know, 2020 has been a crazy year for a lot of folks. Um, a lot of what I've been spending my time on is, um, you know, taking feedback from people who, you know, in this time of, you know, change and concern and worry and huge shift to the cloud, um, working with them to make sure that we have a really good, um, you know, foundation in Kubernetes and that the ecosystem is healthy and the things are moving forward there. So there's a ton of exciting projects. I will say, you know, the, the pandemics had a, an impact on, um, you know, the community. And so in many places we've reacted by slowing down our schedules or focusing more on the things that people are really worried about, like quality and bugs and making sure that the stuff just works. Uh, I will say this year has been a really interesting one and open source. >>There's been much more focus, I think, on how we start to tie this stuff together. Um, and new use cases and new challenges coming into, um, what maybe, you know, the original Kubernetes was very focused on helping you bring stuff together, bring your applications together and giving you common abstractions for working with them. Um, we went through a phase where we made it easy to extend Kubernetes, which brought a whole bunch of new abstractions. And, and I think now we're starting to see the challenges and the needs of organizations and companies and individuals that are getting out of, um, not just in Kubernetes, but across multiple locations across placement edge has been huge in the last few years. And so the projects in and around Kubernetes are kind of reacting to that. They're starting to, um, bridge, um, many of these, um, you know, disparate locations, different clouds, multicloud hybrid cloud, um, connecting enterprises to data centers are connecting data centers to the cloud, helping workloads be a little bit more portable in of themselves, but helping workloads move. >>And then I think, you know, we're, we're really starting to ask those next big questions about what comes, what comes next for making applications really come alive in the cloud, um, where you're not as focused on the hardware. You're not focused on the details, which are focused on abstractions, like, um, you know, reliability and availability, not just in one cluster, but in multiple. So that's been a really exciting, uh, transition in many of the projects that I've been following. You know, certainly projects like Istio I've been dealing with, um, spanning clusters and connecting existing workloads in and, uh, you know, each step along the way, I see people sort of broaden their scope about what they want, uh, open source to help themselves. >>Yeah, I it's, it's, it's been fascinating to watch just the, the breadth of the projects that can tie in and leverage Kubernetes. Uh, you brought up edge computing and want to get into some of the future pieces, but before we do, you know, let's look at Kubernetes itself. Uh, one dot 19 is kind of where we are at. Uh, um, I already see some, some red stalking about one dot 20. Can you just talk about the, the, the base project itself contributions to it, how the upstream, uh, works and you know, how, how should customers think about, you know, their Kubernetes environment, obviously, you know, red hat with open shifts had a very strong position. You've got thousands of customers now using it, all of the cloud providers have their, uh, Kubernetes flavor, but also you partner with them. So walk us through a little bit about, you know, the open source, the project and those dynamics. >>The project is really healthy. I think we've got through a couple of big transitions over the last few years. We've moved from the original, um, you know, I was on the bootstrap steering committee trying to help the governance model. The full bootstrap committee committee has handed off responsibility to, um, new participants. There's been a lot of growth in the project governance and community governance. Um, I think there's huge credit to the folks on the steering committee today. Folks, part of contributor experience and standardizing and formalizing Kubernetes as its own thing. I think we've really moved into being a community managed project. Um, we've developed a lot of maturity around that and Kubernetes and the folks involved in helping Kubernetes be successful, have actually been able to help others within the CNCF ecosystem and other open source projects outside of CNCF be successful. So that angle is going phenomenally well. >>Uh, contribution is up. I think one of the tension points that we've talked about is, um, Kubernetes is maturing one 19, spent a lot of time on stability. And while there's definitely lots of interesting new things in a few areas like storage, and we have fee to an ingress fee too, coming up on the horizon dual stack, support's been hotly anticipated by a lot of on premise folks looking to make the transition to IPV six. I think we've been a little bit less focused on chasing features and more focused on just making sure that Kubernetes is maturing responsibly. Now that we have a really successful ecosystem of integrators and vendors and, um, you know, unification, the conformance efforts in Kubernetes. Um, there've been some great work. I happened to be involved in the, um, in the architecture conformance definition group, and there's been some amazing participation from, um, uh, from that group of people who've made real strides in growing the testing efforts so that, you know, not only can you look at, um, two different Kubernetes vendors, but you can compare them in meaningful ways. >>That's actually helped us with our test coverage and Kubernetes, there's been a lot of focus on, um, really spending time on making sure that upgrades work well, that we've reduced the flakiness of our test suites and that when a contributor comes into Kubernetes, they're not presented with a confusing, massive instructions, but they have a really clear path to make their first contribution and their next contribution. And then the one after that. So from a project maturity standpoint, I think 2020 has been a great great year for the project. And I want to see that continue. >>Yeah. One of the things we talked quite a bit about, uh, at both red hat summit, as well as, uh, the CubeCon cloud native con Europe, uh, was operators. And, you know, maybe I believe there was some updates also about how operators can work with Google cloud. So can you give us that update? >>Sure. There's been a lot of, um, there's been a lot of growth in both the client tooling and the libraries and the frameworks that make it easy to integrate with Kubernetes. Um, and those integrations are about patterns that, um, make operations teams more productive, but it takes time to develop the domain expertise in, uh, operationalizing large groups of software. So over the last year, um, know the controller runtime project, uh, which is an outgrowth of the Kubernetes Siggy lb machinery. So it's kind of a, an outshoot that's intended to standardize and make it easier to write integrations to Kubernetes that next step of, um, you know, going then pass that red hat's worked, uh, with, um, others in the community around, um, the operator SDK, uh, which unifying that project and trying to get it aligned with others in the ecosystem. Um, almost all of the cloud providers, um, have written operators. >>Google has been an early adopter of the controller and operator pattern, uh, and have continued to put time and effort into helping make the community be successful. And, um, we're really appreciative of everyone who's come together to take some of those ideas from Kubernetes to extend them into, um, whether it's running databases and service on top of Kubernetes or whether it's integrating directly with cloud. Um, most of that work or almost all of that work benefits everybody in the ecosystem. Um, I think there's some future work that we'd like to see around, um, you know, uh, folks, uh, from, um, a number of places have gone even further and tried to boil Kubernetes down into simpler mechanisms, um, that you can integrate with. So a little bit more of a, a beginner's approach or a simplification, a domain specific, uh, operator kind of idea that, um, actually really does accelerate people getting up to speed with, um, you know, building these sorts of integrations, but at the end of the day, um, one of the things that I really see is the increasing integration between the public clouds and their Kubernetes on top of those clouds through capabilities that make everybody better off. >>So whether you're using a managed service, um, you know, on a particular cloud or whether you're running, um, the elements of that managed open source software using an open source operator on top of Kubernetes, um, there's a lot of abstractions that are really productive for admins. You might use the managed service for your production instances, but you want to use, um, throw away, um, database instances for developers. Um, and there's a lot of experimentation going on. So it's almost, it's almost really difficult to say what the most interesting part is. Um, operators is really more of an enabling technology. I'm really excited to see that increasing glue that makes automation and makes, um, you know, dev ops teams, um, more productive just because they can rely increasingly on open source or managed services offerings from, you know, the large cloud providers to work well together. >>Yeah. You had mentioned that we're seeing all the other projects that are tying into Coobernetti's, we're seeing Kubernetes going into broader use cases, things like edge computing, what, from an architectural standpoint, you know, needs to be done to make sure that, uh, Kubernetes can be used, you know, meets the performance, the simplicity, um, in these various use cases. >>That's a, that's a good question. There's a lot of complexity in some areas of what you might do in a large application deployment that don't make sense in edge deployments, but you get advantages from having a reasonably consistent environment. I think one of the challenges everybody is going through is what is that reasonable consistency? What are the tools? You know, one of the challenges obviously is as we have more and more clusters, a lot of the approaches around edge involve, you know, whether it's a single cluster on a single machine and, um, you know, in a fairly beefy, but, uh, remote, uh, computer, uh, that you still need to keep in sync with your application deployment. Um, you might have a different life cycle for, uh, the types of hardware that you're rolling out, you know, whether it's regional or whether it's tied to, whether someone can go out to that particular site that you've been update the software. Sometimes it's connected, sometimes it isn't. So I think a need that is becoming really clear is there's a lot of abstractions missing above Coopernetties. Uh, and everyone's approaching this differently. We've got a get ops and centralized config management. Um, we have, uh, architectures where, you know, you, you boot up and you go check some remote cloud location for what you should be running. Um, I think there's some, some productive obstructions that are >>That, or haven't been, um, >>It haven't been explored sufficiently yet that over the next couple of years, how do you treat a whole bunch of clusters as a pool of compute where you're not really focused on the details of where a cluster is, or how can you define applications that can easily move from your data center out to the edge or back up to the cloud, but get those benefits of Kubernetes, all those places. And >>That >>This is for so early, that what I see in open source and what I see with people deploying this is everyone is approaching this subtly differently, but you can start to see some of those patterns emerge where, um, you need reproducible bundles of applications, things that help can do REL, or you can do with just very simply with Kubernetes. Um, not every edge location needs, um, uh, an ingress controller or a way to move traffic onto that cluster because their job is to generate traffic and send it somewhere else. But then that puts more pressure on, well, you need those where you're feeding that data to your API APIs, whether that's a cloud or something within your something within a private data center, you need, um, enough of commonalities across those clusters and across your applications that you could reason about what's going on. So >>There's a huge amount >>Out of a space here. And I don't think it's just going to be Kubernetes. In fact, I, I want to say, I think we're starting to move to that phase where Kubernetes is just part of the platform that people are building or need to build. And what can we do to build those tools that help you stitch together computer across a lot of footprints, um, parts of applications across a lot of footprints. And there's, there's a bunch of open source projects that are trying to drive to that today. Um, projects like I guess the O and K natives, um, with the work being done with the venting in K native, and obviously the venting is a hugely, um, you know, we talk about edge, we'd almost be remiss, not talk about moving data. And you talk about moving data. Well, you want streams of data and you want to be reacted to data with compute and K native and Istio are both great examples of technologies within the QB ecosystem that are starting to broaden, um, you know, outside of the, well, this is just about one cube cluster to, um, we really need to stitch together a mindset of development, even if we have a reasonably consistent Kubernetes across all those footprints. >>Yeah. Well, Clayton so important. There's so many technologies out there it's becoming about that technology. And it's just a given, it's an underlying piece of it. You know, we don't talk about the internet. We don't talk, you know, as much about Linux anymore. Cause it's just in the fabric of everything we do. And it sounds like we're saying that's where we're getting with Kubernetes. Uh, I'd love to pull on that thread. You mentioned that you're hearing some patterns starting to emerge out there. So when you're talking to enterprises, especially if you're talking 2020, uh, lots of companies, all of a sudden have to really accelerate, uh, you know, those transformational projects that they were doing so that they can move faster and keep up with the pace of change. Uh, so, you know, what should enterprise be, be working on? What feedback are you hearing from customers, but what are some of those themes that you can share and w what, what should everybody else be getting ready for that? >>The most common pattern I think, is that many people still find a need to build, uh, platforms or, um, standardization of how they do application development across fairly large footprints. Um, I think what they're missing, and this is what everyone's kind of building on their own today, that, um, is a real opportunity within the community is, uh, abstract abstractions around a location, not really about clusters or machines, but something broader than that, whether it's, um, folks who need to be resilient across clouds, and whether it's folks who are looking to bring together disparate footprints to accelerate their boot to the cloud, or to modernize their on premise stack. They're looking for abstractions that are, um, productive to say, I don't really want to worry too much about the details of clusters or machines or applications, but I'm talking about services and where they run and that I need to stitch those into. >>Um, I need to stitch those deeply into some environments, but not others. So that pattern, um, has been something that we've been exploring for a long time within the community. So the open service broker project, um, you know, has been a long running effort of trying to genericize one type of interface operators and some of the obstructions and Kubernetes for extending Kubernetes and new dimensions is another. What I'm seeing is that people are building layers on top through continuous deployment, continuous integration, building their own API is building their own services that really hide these details. I think there's a really rich opportunity within open to observe what's going on and to offer some supporting technologies that bridge clouds, bridge locations, what you deal with computed a little bit more of an abstract level, um, and really doubled down on making services run. Well, I think we're kind of ready to make the transition to say officially, it's not just about applications, which is what we've been saying for a long time. >>You know, I've got these applications and I'm moving them, but to flip it around and say, we want to be service focused and services, have a couple of characteristics, the details of where they run are more about the guarantees that you're providing for your customers. Um, we lack a lot of open source tools that make it easier to build and run services, not just to consume as dependencies or run open source software, but what are the things that make our applications more resilient in and of themselves? I think Kubernetes was a good start. Um, I really see organizations struggling with that today. You're going to have multiple locations. You're going to have, um, the need to dramatically move workloads. What are the tools that the whole ecosystem, the open source ecosystem, um, can collaborate on and help accelerate that transition? >>Well, Clayton, you teed up on my last thing. I want to ask you, you know, we're, we're here at the Google cloud show and when you talk about ecosystem, you talk about community, you know, Google and red hat, both very active participants in this community. So, you know, you, you peer you collaborate with a lot of people from Google I'm sure. So give our audience a little bit of insight as to, you know, Google's participation. What, what you've been seeing from them the last couple of years at Google has been a great partner, >>Crazy ecosystem for red hat. Um, we worked really closely with them on Istio and K native and a number of other projects. Um, I, you know, as always, um, I'm continually impressed by the ability of the folks that I've worked with from Google to really take a community focus and to concentrate on actually solving use cases. I think the, you know, there's always the desire to create drama around technology or strategy or business and open source. You know, we're all coming together to work on common goals. I really want to, um, you know, thank the folks that I've worked with at Google over the years. Who've been key participants. They've believed very strongly in enabling users. Um, you know, regardless of, um, you know, business or technology, it's about making sure that we're improving software for everyone. And one of the beauties of working on an open source project like Kubernetes is everyone can get some benefit out of it. And those are really, um, you know, the sum of all of the individual contributions is much larger than what the simple math would apply. And I think that's, um, you know, Kubernetes has been a huge success. I want to see more successes like that. Um, you know, working with Google and others in the open source ecosystem around infrastructure as a service and, you know, this broadening >>Domain of places where we can collaborate to make it easier for developers and operations teams and dev ops and sec ops to just get their jobs done. Um, you know, there's a lot more to do and I think open source is the best way to do that. All right. Well, Clayton Coleman, thank you so much for the update. It's really great to catch up. It was a pleasure. All right. Stay tuned for lots more coverage. The Google cloud next 2020 virtually I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching the cube.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Red Hat. Summit 2020 Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Hi, I'm stupid, man. And this is the Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit 2020 course. The event this year is digital. We're talking to Red Hat executives, partners and customers where they are around the globe, pulling them in remotely happy to welcome back to the program. One of our Cube alumni on a very important topic, of course, that red hat open shift and joining me is Clayton Coleman. Who's the open shift chief architect with Red Hat. Clayton, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you >>for having me today. >>All right, So before we get into the product, it's probably worthwhile that we talked about you know what's happening in the community and talking specifically, you know, kubernetes the whole cloud, native space. Normally we would have gotten together. I would have seen you at Cube Con Ah, you know, at the end of March. But instead, here we are at the end of April. Looking out, you know, more CN cf events later this year, but first Red Hat Summit is a great open source event and broad community. So would really love your viewpoint as to what's happening in that ecosystem. >>It's been a really interesting year, obviously. Ah, with an open source community, you know, we react to this. Um, like we always react to all the things that go on in open source. People come to the community and sometimes they have more time, and sometimes they have less time. I think just from a community perspective, there's been a lot of people you know. It's reaching out to their colleagues outside of their companies, to their friends and coworkers and all of the different participants in the community. And there's been a lot of people getting together for a little bit of extra time trying todo, you know, connect virtually where they can't connect physically. And it's been it's been great to at least see where we've come this year. We haven't had Cube con and that'll be coming up later this year. But Kubernetes just had the 1 18 release, and I think Kubernetes is moving into that phase where it's a mature, open source project. We've got a lot of the processes down. I'm really happy with the work that the steering committee, um, has gone through. We handed off the last of the bootstrap Steering Committee members hand it off to the new, fully elected steering committee last year, and it's gone absolutely smoothly, which has been phenomenal on the The core project is trying to be a little bit more stable and to focus on closing out those loose ends being a little bit more conservative to change. And at the same time, the ecosystem has really exploded in a number of directions, as as Kubernetes becomes more of a bedrock technology for, um, enterprises and individuals and startups and everything in between. We've really seen a huge amount of of innovation in the space, and every year it just gets bigger and bigger. There's a lot of exciting projects that >>I >>have never even talk to somebody on the Kubernetes project. But they have made and build and, uh, and solve problems for their environments without us ever having to be involved, which I think it's success. >>Yeah, Clayton, you know, one of the challenges when you talk to practitioners out there is just keeping up with the pace of change. Can really be challenging. Something we really saw acutely was Docker was rolling out updates every six weeks. Most customers aren't going to be able to change fast enough to keep up with things you love your view point both is toe really what the CN CF says, as well as how Red Hat thinks of products. So you talked about you know, kubernetes 1.18. My understanding, even Google isn't yet packaging and offering that version there. So there's a lag between things. And as we start talking about managing across lots of clusters, how does Red Hat think of this? How should customers think about this? How do we make sure that we're, you know, staying secure and keeping updated on things without getting run over by the constant treadmill of >>change? That the interesting part about kubernetes Is it so much more than just that core project? You know, no matter what any of us in the in the core kubernetes project or in the products that red hat that build around open shift and layers on top, there's a There's a whole ecosystem of components that most people think of this fundamental to accomplishing building applications deploying them, running them, Whether it's their continuous integration pipelines or it's their monitoring stacks, we really as communities has become a little bit more conservative. >>Um, I >>think we really nail down our processes for taking that change from the community, testing it. You know, we run tens of thousands of automation tests a week on the latest and greatest kubernetes code, given time to soak, and we did it together with all those pieces of the ecosystem and then make sure that they work well together. And I've noticed over the last two years that the rate of oops we missed that in KUBERNETES 1 17 that by the time someone saw it, people are already using that that started to go down for us, it really hasn't been about the pace of keeping up with the upstream. But it's about making sure that we can responsibly pull together all the other ecosystem components that are still have much newer and a little bit. How do we say, Ah, they are then the exciting phase of their development while still giving ah predictable, reliable update stream. I would say that the challenges that most people are going to see is how they bring together all those pieces. And that's something that, on open shift, we think of as our goal is to help pull together all the pieces of this ecosystem, Um, and to make some choices for customers that makes sense and to give them flexibility where it's not clear yet what the right choice might be or where different people could reasonably disagree. And I'm really excited. I feel like we've got our We have a release cadence down and we're shipping the latest Cube after it's had time to quickly review, and I think we've gotten better and better at that. So I'm really proud of the team on Red Hat and how they've worked within the community so that everybody benefits from that in that testing of that stability. >>Great. I'd like to teach here, you dig in a little bit on the application side what's happening from the work loads that customers are using? Ah, what other innovations happening around that space? And how is Red Hat really helping? Really, The the infrastructure team and the developer team work even closer together, like Red Hat has done for a long time. >>This is This is a great question. I say There's two key, um, two key groups coming together. People are bringing substantial important critical production workloads, and they expect things both to just work, but also to be able to understand it. And they're making the transition. Ah, lot of folks I talked to were making the transition from previous systems they've got. They've been running open shift for a while, or they've been running kubernetes for a while, and they're getting ready to move, um, a significant portion of their applications over. And so, you know, in the early days of any project, you get the exciting Greenfield development and you get to go play with new technologies. But as you start moving your 1st 1 and then 10 and then 100 of your core business applications from the EMS or from bare metal into containers, you're taking advantage of that technology in a responsible way. And so the the expectations on us as engineers and community members is to really make sure that we're closing out the little stuff. You know, no bug is too small, but it can't trip up someone's production applications. So seeing a lot of that whether it's something new and exciting like, Um uh, model is a service or ai workloads or whether it's traditional big enterprise transaction processing. APS on the other side on that development, um, model I think we're starting to see phase to our community is 2.0, in the community, which is people are really leveraging the flexibility and the power of containers, things that aren't necessarily new to people who had. We got into containers early and had a chance to go through a couple of iterations. But now people are starting to find patterns that up level development teams, so being able to run applications the same way on a local machine as in a production environment. Well, most production environments are there now, and so people are really having toe. They're having to go through all of their tools and saying, Well, does this process that works for an individual developer also work when I want to move it there, my production or staging environments to production, and so on. New projects like K native and tectonic, which are kubernetes native, that's just one part of the ecosystem around development. On top of kubernetes, there's tons of exciting projects out there from companies that have adopted the full stack of kubernetes. They built it into their mindset, this idea of flexible infrastructure, and we're seeing this explosion of new ways where kubernetes is really just a detail, and containers are just the detail and the fact that it's running this little thing called Docker down at the heart of it. Nobody talks about anymore, and so that that transition has been really exciting. I think there's a lot that we're trying to do to help developers and administrators see eye to eye. And a lot of it's learning from the customers and users out there who really paved the way the which is the open source way. It's learning from others and helping others benefit from that. >>Yeah, I think you bring up a really important point we've been saying for a couple of years. Now that you know KUBERNETES should get to the point where it's boring and boring in a way also cause it's gonna be baked in everywhere we saw from basically customers just taking the code, really spending a lot of their own things by building the stack to, of course, lots of customers have used open shift over the year to If I'm adopting Public Cloud more and more, they're using those services from that standpoint. Can you talk a bit about how Red Hat is really integrating with public clouds? And you know your architectural technical philosophy on that? And how might that be? Differ from some other companies that you might call a little bit more, you know, Cloud of Jason, as opposed to being deeply integrated with the public cloud. >>The interesting thing about Kubernetes is that while it was developed on top of the clouds, it wasn't really built from Day one assuming a cloud underneath it. And I think that was an opportunity that we really missed. And to be fair, we had to make the thing work first before we depended on these unreliable clouds. You know, when we started, the clouds were really hitting their stride on stability and reliability, and people were it was the hot was becoming the obvious choice to some of what we've tried to do is take flexible infrastructure is a given, um, assume that the things that the cloud provides should be programmed for the for the benefit of the developer and the application, and I think that's a that's a key trend is we're not using the cloud because our administration teams want us. We're using the cloud because it makes us more powerful developers. That enables new scenarios. It shortens the the time between idea reality. What we have done in open shift is we've really built around The idea of open shift running on a cloud should take advantage of that cloud to an extreme degree, which is infrastructure could be flexible. The machines in that cluster need to come and go according to the demands of the applications on top of it. So giving a little bit more power to the cluster and taking a little bit of way from the cloud I'm. But that benefits. That also needs to benefit that those who are running on premise because I think, as you noted, our goal is you want this ubiquitous kubernetes environment everywhere, and the operations teams and the development teams and the Dev Ops teams in between need to have a consistent environment and so you can do this on the cloud. But you don't have that flexibility on premise. You've lost something. And so what we've tried to do as well is to think about those ideas that are what we think of as quote unquote cloud native that starts with a mutable operating systems. It starts with everything being declarative and working backwards from, you know, I wanna have 15 machines and then the cluster or controllers on the cluster say, Oh, well, you know, one of the machines has gone bad. Let's replace it on the cloud. You ask for a new I'm cloud infrastructure provider or you ask the the cloud a p i for a new machine, and then you replace it automatically, and no one knows any better on premise. We'd love to do the same thing with both bare metal virtualization on top of kubernetes. So we have that flexibility to say you may not have all of the options, but we should certainly be able to say, Oh, well, this hardware is bad or the machine stopped, so let's reboot it, and there's a lot of that same mindset that could be applied. We think that'll, um if you need virtualization, you can always use it. But virtualization is a layer on top benefits from some of the same things that all the other extensions and applications on top of kubernetes competitive trump. So trying to pay that layer and make sure that you have flexible, reliable storage on premise through our SEF and red hat storage products, which are built on top of the cluster exactly like virtualization, is both on top of the cluster. So you get cloud native storage mixed in working with those teams toe. Take those operational best practices. You know there's well, I think one of the things that interests me is no. 1 20 years ago, who was running an early version of SEF wouldn't have some approach to run these very large things that scales organizations like CERN have been using SEF for over a decade at extremely large scales. Some of what our mindset is we think it's time to bake some of that knowledge actually into our software for a very long time. We've kind of been building out and adding more and more software, but we always left the automation and the the knowledge about how that software supposed to be run to the side. And so by taking that and we talked about operators. Kubernetes really enshrines. This principle is taking that idea, taking some of that operational knowledge into the software we ship. Um, though that software can rely on kubernetes open shift tries to hide the details of the infrastructure underneath and our goal. I think in the long run it will just make everybody's lives easier. I shouldn't have to ship you a SEF admin for you to be successful. And we think we think there's a lot more room here that's really gonna improve how operations teams work, that the software that they use day to day. >>So Clinton you mentioned virtualization is one of the topics in there. Of course, virtualization is very prevalent in a customer's data center environment today. Red Hat open shift, oftentimes in data centers, is sitting on BM ware environments. Of course. Recently, VM Ware announced that they have kubernetes baked into the solution, and red hat has open shift with red hat virtualization. Maybe, you know, without going into too much depth, and you probably have breakouts and white papers on this. But you know what kind of decision point should customers be thinking about when they're deciding? Do I do this in bare metal. Do I do it in virtualization? What are some of the, you know, just high level trade offs there when they need to make those decisions, >>I think it's, um I think the 1st 1 is Virtualization is a mature technology. It's a known quantity for many organizations, and so those who are comfortable with virtualization, I'd say, like any responsible, uh, architecture engineering team. You don't want to stop using something that's working well just because you can. And a lot of what I would see as the transition that companies on is for some organizations without a big investment in virtualization. They don't see the need for it anymore, except as maybe a technical detail of how they isolate insecure workloads. One of the great things about virtualization technology that we're all aware of over the last couple years is it creates a boundary between work loads and the underlying environment. That doesn't mean that the underlying environment and containers can't be as secure or benefit from those same techniques. And so we're starting to see that in the community, this kind of spectrum of virtualization all the way from the big traditional virtualization to very streamlined, stripped down virtualization wrappers around containers. Um, like some of the cloud providers use for their application environments. So I'm really excited about the open source. Community is touching each of these points on the spectrum. Some of our goals are if you're happy with your infrastructure provider, we want to work well with, and that's kind of the pragmatic of everyone's on a different step in that journey. The benefit of containers is no matter how fast you make of VM, it's never gonna be quite as fast, is it containers. And it's never gonna be quite as easy for a developer to run on their laptop. And I think working through this is there's still a lot of work that we as a community to do around, making it easier for developers to build containers and test them locally in smaller environments. But all of that flexibility can still benefit from virtualization under later or virtualization used as an isolation technology. So projects like Kata and some of the work that's being done in the open source community around projects like firecracker taking the same, um, open source ideas and remixing them a different points gives us a lot of flexibility. So I would say, um, I'm actually less interested in virtualization then all of the other technologies that are application centric and at the heart of it, a VM isn't really a developer centric idea. It's specifically an administrative concept that benefits the administrator, and developers can take advantage of it. But I think all of the capabilities that you think of when you think about building an application like scaling out and making sure patches are applied, being able to roll back separating your configuration on then all of the hundreds of other levels of complexity that will add around that like service MASH and the ability to gracefully tolerate failures in your database. These were where I think, um, virtualization needs to work with the platform rather than being something that dominates how we think about the platform. It's application first, not being first. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right that the critique I've always given, you know for a number of years now is if you look at virtualization, the promise was, let's take that old application that probably should have been updated and just shove it in a VM and never think about it again. That's not doing good things for the user. So if I look at that at one end of the spectrum away at the other end of the spectrum, trying not to think about infrastructure, you mentioned K native s 01 of the things that you know I've been digging in tryingto learn more about at Red Hat Summit has really been the open shift server lists. So give us the update on that piece. Um, you know, that's obviously very different discussion than what we were just having from a virtualization standpoint. Eso How does open shift look at server lists? How does that tie into what? You know, if I'm doing server, listen, Amazon versus you know some of the other open source options for serverless. How should I be thinking about that? >>There's a lot of great choices on the spectrum out there. I think one of the interesting things and I love the word spectrum here because cane native kind of sits in a spot where it tries to be, as the name says, it tries to be as kubernetes native as possible, which lets you tap into some of those additional capabilities when you need it. And one of the things I've always appreciate it is the more restrictive framework is usually the better. It is doing that one thing and doing it really well. We learned this with rails. We learned this with no Js. And as people have built over the years, the idea of simple development platforms. The core function idea is a great simple idea, but sometimes you need to break out of that. You need extra flexibility or your application needs to run longer or slow Start is actually an issue. One of the things I think is most interesting about K native and I see comers and user. I think this way it's a good point. Um, that gives you some of the flexibility of kubernetes and a lot of the simplicity of, um, the functions is a service, but I think that there's going to be an inevitable set of use cases that tie into that which are simpler where open organization has a very opinionated way of running applications, and I think that flexibility will really benefit K native. Whereas some of the more opinionated remarks around server lists lose a little bit of that. So that's one dimension that I still think a native is well positioned to kind of capture the broadest possible audience, which for kubernetes and Containers was kind of our mindset. We wanted to solve enough of the problems that you can solve. You can run all your software. We don't have to solve all those problems to such a level that there's endless complexity, although we've been accused of having endless complexity and Cooper days before, but just trying to think through what are the problems that everyone's going to have to give them a way out? I'm at the same time for us, when we think about prioritization functions is service about integration. It's about taking applications and connecting them, connecting them through kubernetes. And so it really depends on identity and access to data and tying that into your cloud environment. If you're running on top of a cloud or tying it into your back end databases, if your on premise, >>I >>think that is where the ecosystem is still working to bring together and standardize some of those pieces in kubernetes or on top of Kubernetes. What I'm really excited about is the team as much. You know, there's been this core community effort to get a native to a G, a quality. Alongside that, the open shift serverless team has been trying to make it a dramatically simpler action. If you have kubernetes and open shift, it's a one click action to get started with, Um Kay native and just like any other technology. How accessible it is determines how easy users find it to get started and to build the applications they need. So for us, it's not just about the core technology. It's about someone who's not familiar with Serverless or not familiar with kubernetes. Bring up an editor and build a function and then deploy it on top of open shift. See it scale out like a normal kubernetes application, not having to know about pods or persistent volumes or notes. And so these air, these are some of the steps. I've been really proud that the team's done. I think there's a huge amount of innovation that will happen this year and next year, as the maturity of the kubernetes ecosystem really grows up, we'll start to see standardized technologies, for I'm sharing identity across multiple clouds across multiple environments. It's no good if you've got these applications on the cloud that need to tie into your corporate L dap. But you can't connect your corporate held up to the cloud. And so your applications need 1/3 identity system. Nobody wants 1/3 identity system. And so, working through some of this thing where the challenges I think that hybrid organizations are already facing and our job is just to work with them in the open source communities and with the cloud providers partner with them and open source so that the technologies in kubernetes fit very well into whatever environment they run it. Alright, >>well, Clayton, really appreciate all the updates there. I know the community is definitely looking forward to digging through some of the breakout sessions reading all the new announcements. And, of course, we look forward to seeing you on the team participating in many of the kubernetes related events happening later this >>year. That's right. It's ah, gonna be a good year. >>All right. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm still Minuteman and as always thank you for watching you. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners welcome back to the cube Silicon angle media's two-day live production of KU con and cloud native con ops to minimun my co-host for the same segment is matt Probert happy to welcome back to the program clayton Coleman who's the architect of containerized application infrastructure with the red hat clayton great to see you it's great to see you too alright so first of all 4100 people you impressed I am I'm hugely impressed every year this gets bigger and bigger the community is out in force people building on top of kubernetes and in the cloud any ecosystem around it for us and it's it's really phenomenal yes so John Fourier interviewed you last year at the Seattle show I think it's what triple the size the number of projects are gone from four to 14 but at the core I mean it's kubernetes and you spend you know quite a lot of your time tell us you know what have you been working on the last year I know what was it what's important in your life well I think the biggest things that we've really tried to focus on are making kubernetes a good foundation for both a community as well as for a technology stack because kubernetes is about empowering developers it's about empowering operations teams and we always anticipated there to be many levels and many ways of building on top of Rene's to make it an ecosystem so that people can build and deploy software but other people besides us can succeed and I think that's more than anything else in the last year it's about ensuring that everyone besides the kubernetes community is successful not just kubernetes itself yeah it's interesting when we think back to like Linux it's you know Red Hat you did quite well with Linux also you know from the enterprise standpoint from from the company we appreciate what Red Hat had did to make sure that Linux could be used by everyone seems like a lot of you know similar themes that we see but how could you kind of compare good drives Linux versus kubernetes today it's interesting everyone is a lot more conscious of open source and the idea of building a platform because of the example of Linux and so we've tried to actually be pretty conscious about that which is we want there to be a strong community we want there to be a technical respect among not just the core of the project but also the different layers and the cloud the cloud native Foundation has actually done a really good job of bringing together mutually complementary technologies but also helping and support those communities from a RedHat perspective a lot of the things we work on our stability security reliability we also work on extension because extension to us allows us both to support customers but also to help the open source ecosystems that we depend on that I'm sorry just for audience can you explain what extension is sure extension is actually it's a number of things in kubernetes we really want you to be possible if we're gonna build in kubernetes things that make running applications easier we want everyone else to build their own tools that make it easier to run applications and we don't want to be opinionated and kind of the same way as maybe some other ecosystems about who gets to build what instead we want to open the doors for vendors for partners for deployers for individual users to build their own extensions and points of contact with kubernetes to really solve their own problems we can't solve all those problems but that plays really nicely into it right the cloud native foundation has gone from four projects to 14 that's right just a year and you're talking about the extensions what do you want people to take away from that proliferation of projects that are all being supported and seen as essential to the eCos kubernetes it takes the spectrum we want we want everyone to be able to use kubernetes and to use the other projects either independently on their own but I think a lot of us in the kubernetes community in the CN CF communities believe that a lot of these tools work really well together and finding new opportunities to make it easy to work together so Prometheus is a great example it's exploded across the ecosystem I think at the last cognitive con Prometheus was really the talk of the show and I think what I've seen is that a lot of people around the ecosystem not just in that core community on a very specific project I've taken the ideas that underlie that technology I tried to apply it to other things that they were doing so you see people building integrations into Prometheus you see in flux DB working with Prometheus to share data press a lot of really exciting cross collaboration and the end goal really is to make building and running applications easier which is something we really believe in as well all right you use the word a spectrum when you talk about users out there there's lots of them that are kind of in the 101 phase we know there's people doing things through production what are you seeing you know kind of the help us walk through some of the spectrum as to where customers are what you're seeing some of the big challenges that they're facing in spectrum really there's no other word because the range of people using kubernetes in production and development is so incredibly diverse I would say the two extremes are people who are today deploying micro services based production applications on public cloud and they're bringing you know three or four or ten or 100 applications it might be a two or three developer team and they're really finding a lot of value in that because kubernetes is taking a lot of the heavy lifting and they can rely on that to keep their applications running into rapidly deploy on the complete other end is giant corporations people with you know decades of investment in IT finding ways to use kubernetes and OpenShift which is the product that Red Hat ships around kubernetes to empower you know tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of applications and in those models kubernetes is just one small part of the larger hole and this is where ecosystem really comes into play in the middle I think we're starting to see a lot of really exciting things as people have the they've got their one team working together and they as they start reaching out and bringing other teams as companies grow as they say find more reasons to use kubernetes they start asking questions like well how do I have all these teams working together without impacting the other teams and that's where multi-tenancy that's a real specialty for Red Hat and OpenShift is multi-tenancy and we're actually really excited to work with people in the community to build out these technologies at many different levels to have you know kind of that spectrum tart to spread from the middle as well you know one of the things coming into this show you know the last year or two was like okay who's gonna win kind of the orchestration battle and it's like okay kubernetes you know here it is well now there's like 42 different providers you know open ship being one of them where does Red Hat you know look to add value to the customers is it just a piece of the platform how does Red Hat look at it and how to customers when do they come to you when do they say you know oh wait I'm just gonna go build all my own pieces and and use some of the Red Hat pieces I if working with open source and Linux has taught us anything it's that one of the key components of a successful story is a distribution the idea of curating making a few choices making it easy to bring things into that distribution and we've actually started to really apply the distribution mindset to kubernetes so if you look at openshift it is a platform it has two that help you run tens of thousands of applications together with tens of thousands of users to bring operational control but it's hard it's about taking the best technologies in the community and bringing them together and so I would actually expect over the next year or two to start seeing the idea of the distribution emerge in kubernetes in the cloud native ecosystem where you know we won't it's not ever gonna just be one company dominating open-source that's not how open-source works I would expect to see an effort at thinking about kubernetes is before the kernel if you will and bringing together all of the successful technologies like the ones that we've seen at cloud native con here today and bringing even more of them letting people mix and match to find the solutions that work for them I really like that view of a - because you're saying that the open source at its core is open and unup enya nated while distributions are an outlet to have opinion in refined business problems so how do you see that playing out a little bit there's always going to be some trade-off when you make choices for people and so I think the way that we look at it is we try to make choices that make sense when you're dealing at certain scales when long term support and life cycle becomes really critical you know if you can't afford a production outage because you have 10,000 applications running together then it becomes really important to focus on those but at the same time we actually expect there to be different choices and trade-offs to be made and we'll want to actually encourage people to mix and match the different parts of the ecosystem and what patterns are you seeing in enterprise readiness or any enterprise feature sets that are combining into what you hope to see out of the distribution at the heart of its security tends to come up a lot you know everybody everybody who's making the leap from we made the leap from bare metal to virtualization and then at a large number of management platforms grew to encompass it and virtualization brought its own changes containers were starting to mature and how we understand how the software lifecycle works with containers how it works in large multi-tenant environments I think the next step will be as we become more mature that a lot of these patterns will be baked in and so you'll see you know standard solutions we all kind of need to work together to make those standard solutions happen we're actually seeing that in a number of the things you know even today I'll talk about the CNC F conformance profile for kubernetes it's a new effort that intends to take the tests that we use in kubernetes to make sure it's working correctly and use that to say this is something that you can rely on every kubernetes distribution also supporting and just like any other mechanism that we use to make sure that we're delivering something that is stable and predictable across a wide number of spaces I would expect in the future to see things like conformance for multi-tenancy conformance for security specifically in cube and to see vendors bring their own approaches partners ecosystem players integrating their solutions and then new open-source solutions fitting into that as well the keynote this morning there were a lot of these projects you know getting to the next Rev Cooper net is gonna be a 1.9 many of the underlying kind of supporting pieces are hitting kind of the 1 dot Oh out there your top contributor for kubernetes what's that experience like today lots of new people still coming on how's the balance of kind of the you know few that are heavily involved versus kind of the majority when we started kubernetes it was a very there's an interesting mix it was a lot of engineers working on very concrete ideas things that we'd want to try to bring to fruition together in the community and it's been a very deliberate goal over the last two years to broaden that into a successful and healthy open-source ecosystem which means a lot of mentoring which means working to find the different ways that people can contribute in an ecosystem Sarah Novotny from Google often uses the chop wood carry water analogy there's many different ways that people can work together and everyone has a spot so we spent a lot of time being very deliberate about being open trying to organize ways for new contributors to get oriented and to bring their value but at the same time we actually want to mentor and grow the next level of technical leadership in kubernetes no I won't be here forever and I don't want to be here forever I want people to replace me in the open-source community because that's a healthy community yeah I think the stratification of contribution is one of the number-one signs of success from from my perspective and I see a distinct different invitation for each type of user so you have the user you have the administrator and then you also have a developer are there any things you've noticed changing in one of those patterns that like really hits home for you I think the developer pattern is the most interesting you know there's a lot of focus on how do you use kubernetes in many different ways and a lot of developers want to get their hands on and dig in and so there's actually been a lot of great community projects that are focused on making kubernetes easy to consume at a small scale all of that then ties back into well in kubernetes we want to be pretty opinion if we're going to be a kernel there needs to be a space for things like the compiler and the programming language distributions I'm actually hoping that we can keep that focus on making sure there's a good set of projects in the ecosystem that meat developers where they are so that they can start using kubernetes and then I don't want to say trick but trick them into becoming contributors and help us get that feedback about how we can make Rene's better helping to paint the fence is very fun that's right all right Clayton last question I have for you you're doing two keynotes this week give our audience that you know won't be there in person give us a taste for that and especially want to hear kind of the outlook for kind of the next 12 months through 2018 sure so my first keynote tomorrow is a just a real quick one I'm going to try and convince everybody that kubernetes should be boring and I'll leave it at that you know boring is good in very specific ways boring equals mature right I would certainly hope so and on Friday I'm gonna talk about what's coming up in the kubernetes ecosystem in 2018 a lot of people have finally jumped on board the kubernetes bandwagon and what I'd like to do is kind of help people find those exciting projects to get involved with if if we're gonna have a vibrant ecosystem and community helping people understand where they can get involved and to find the things that match their interest is going to be really important okay anything specific that you're super excited about looking forward to next year or any project or I've got to say and this is not a it's not a company line but sto is incredibly exciting because one of our goals with kubernetes was always about making it easier to run applications and sto and the idea of service mesh is taking that to the next level and I actually hope to see even more projects like that over the next few years in the ecosystem that solve things like server lists and databases of service and I think we're actually starting to really see that develop yeah well companies are all looking to move faster get those applications up and running this do definitely one of the ones we heard buzzing before the show Clayton Coleman thanks so much for joining us again hope to catch up with you again soon for metroburg I'm Stu Mittleman we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the cubes coverage of KU con and cloud native con 2017 here in Austin Texas you're watching the Q you

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host, preview with Brian Gracely from Red Hat Senior Director Product Strategy Cloud Business Unit Brian Gracely great to see you. Former CUBE host CUBE alumni, big time strategist at Red Hat, great to see you, always great. And also the founder of Cloudcast which is an amazing podcast on cloud, part of the cloud (indistinct), great to see you Brian. Hope's all well. >> Great to see you too, you know for years, theCUBE was always sort of the ESPN of tech, I feel like, you know ESPN has become nothing but highlights. This is where all the good conversation is. It's theCUBE has become sort of the the clubhouse of tech, if you will. I know that's that's an area you're focused on, so yeah I'm excited to be back on and good to talk to you. >> It's funny you know, with all the events going away loved going out extracting the signal from the noise, you know, game day kind of vibe. CUBE Virtual has really expanded, so it's been so much more fun because we can get more people easy to dial in. So we're going to keep that feature post COVID. You're going to hear more about theCUBE Virtual hybrid events are going to be a big part of it, which is great because as you know and we've talked about communities and ecosystems are huge advantage right now it's been a big part of the Red Hat story. Now part of IBM bringing that mojo to the table the role of ecosystems with hybrid cloud is so critical. Can you share your thoughts on this? Because I know you study it, you have podcasts you've had one for many years, you understand that democratization and this new direct to audience kind of concept. Share your thoughts on this new ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think so, you know, we're sort of putting this in the context of what we all sort of familiarly call KubeCon but you know, if we think about it, it started as KubeCon it was sort of about this one technology but it's always been CloudNativeCon and we've sort of downplayed the cloud native part of it. But even if we think about it now, you know Kubernetes to a certain extent has kind of, you know there's this feeling around the community that, that piece of the puzzle is kind of boring. You know, it's 21 releases in, and there's lots of different offerings that you can get access to. There's still, you know, a lot of innovation but the rest of the ecosystem has just exploded. So it's, you know, there are ecosystem partners and companies that are working on edge and miniaturization. You know, we're seeing things like Kubernetes now getting into outer space and it's in the space station. We're seeing, you know, Linux get on Mars. But we're also seeing, you know, stuff on the other side of the spectrum. We're sort of seeing, you know awesome people doing database work and streaming and AI and ML on top of Kubernetes. So, you know, the ecosystem is doing what you'd expect it to do once one part of it gets stable. The innovation sort of builds on top of it. And, you know, even though we're virtual, we're still seeing just tons and tons of contributions, different companies different people stepping up and leading. So it's been really cool to watch the last few years. >> Yes, interesting point about the CloudNativeCon. That's an interesting insight, and I totally agree with you. And I think it's worth double clicking on. Let me just ask you, because when you look at like, say Kubernetes, okay, it's enabled a lot. Okay, it's been called the dial tone of Cloud native. I think Pat Gelsinger of VMware used that term. We call it the kind of the interoperability layer it enables more large scale deployments. So you're seeing a lot more Kubernetes enablement on clusters. Which is causing more hybrid cloud which means more Cloud native. So it actually is creating a network effect in and of itself with more Cloud native components and it's changing the development cycle. So the question I want to ask you is one how does a customer deal with that? Because people are saying, I like hybrid. I agree, Multicloud is coming around the corner. And of course, Multicloud is just a subsystem of resource underneath hybrid. How do I connect it all? Now I have multiple vendors, I have multiple clusters. I'm cross-cloud, I'm connecting multiple clouds multiple services, Kubernetes clusters, some get stood up some gets to down, it's very dynamic. >> Yeah, it's very dynamic. It's actually, you know, just coincidentally, you know, our lead architect, a guy named Clayton Coleman, who was one of the Kubernetes founders, is going to give a talk on sort of Kubernetes is this hybrid control plane. So we're already starting to see the tentacles come out of it. So you know how we do cross cloud networking how we do cross cloud provisioning of services. So like, how do I go discover what's in other clouds? You know and I think like you said, it took people a few years to figure out, like how do I use this new thing, this Kubernetes thing. How do I harness it. And, but the demand has since become "I have to do multi-cloud." And that means, you know, hey our company acquires companies, so you know, we don't necessarily know where that next company we acquire is going to run. Are they going to run on AWS? Are they going to, you know, run on Azure I've got to be able to run in multiple places. You know, we're seeing banking industries say, "hey, look cloud's now a viable target for you to put your applications, but you have to treat multiple clouds as if they're your backup domains." And so we're, you know, we're seeing both, you know the way business operates whether it's acquisitions or new things driving it. We're seeing regulations driving hybrid and multi-cloud and, even you know, even if the stalwart were to you know, set for a long time, well the world's only going to be public cloud and sort of you know, legacy data centers even those folks are now coming around to "I've got to bring hybrid to, to these places." So it's been more than just technology. It's been, you know, industries pushing it regulations pushing it, a lot of stuff. So, but like I said, we're going to be talking about kind of our future, our vision on that, our future on that. And, you know Red Hat everything we end up doing is a community activity. So we expect a lot of people will get on board with it >> You know, for all the old timers out there they can relate to this. But I remember in the 80's the OSI Open Systems Interconnect, and I was chatting with Paul Cormier about this because we were kind of grew up through that generation. That disrupted network protocols that were proprietary and that opened the door for massive, massive growth massive innovation around just getting that interoperability with TCP/IP, and then everything else happened. So Kubernetes does that, that's a phenomenal impact. So Cloud native to me is at that stage where it's totally next-gen and it's happening really fast. And a lot of people getting caught off guard, Brian. So you know, I got to to ask you as a product strategist, what's your, how would you give them the navigation of where that North star is? If I'm a customer, okay, I got to figure out where I got to navigate now. I know it's super volatile, changing super fast. What's your advice? >> I think it's a couple of pieces, you know we're seeing more and more that, you know, the technology decisions don't get driven out of sort of central IT as much anymore right? We sort of talk all the time that every business opportunity, every business project has a technology component to it. And I think what we're seeing is the companies that tend to be successful with it have built up the muscle, built up the skill set to say, okay, when this line of business says, I need to do something new and innovative I've got the capabilities to sort of stand behind that. They're not out trying to learn it new they're not chasing it. So that's a big piece of it, is letting the business drive your technology decisions as opposed to what happened for a long time which was we built out technology, we hope they would come. You know, the other piece of it is I think because we're seeing so much push from different directions. So we're seeing, you know people put technology out at the edge. We're able to do some, you know unique scalable things, you know in the cloud and so forth That, you know more and more companies are having to say, "hey, look, I'm not, I'm not in the pharmaceutical business. I'm not in the automotive business, I'm in software." And so, you know the companies that realize that faster, and then, you know once they sort of come to those realizations they realize, that's my new normal, those are the ones that are investing in software skills. And they're not afraid to say, look, you know even if my existing staff is, you know, 30 years of sort of history, I'm not afraid to bring in some folks that that'll break a few eggs and, you know, and use them as a lighthouse within their organization to retrain and sort of reset, you know, what's possible. So it's the business doesn't move. That's the the thing that drives all of them. And it's, if you embrace it, we see a lot of success. It's the ones that, that push back on it really hard. And, you know the market tends to sort of push back on them as well. >> Well we're previewing KubeCon CloudNativeCon. We'll amplify that it's CloudNativeCon as well. You guys bought StackRox, okay, so interesting company, not an open source company they have soon to be, I'm assuring, but Advanced Cluster Security, ACS, as it's known it's really been a key part of Red Hat. Can you give us the strategy behind that deal? What does that product, how does it fit in that's a lot of people are really talking about this acquisition. >> Yeah so here's the way we looked at it, is we've learned a couple of things over the last say five years that we've been really head down in Kubernetes, right? One is, we've always embedded a lot of security capabilities in the platform. So OpenShift being our core Kubernetes platform. And then what's happened over time is customers have said to us, "that's great, you've made the platform very secure" but the reality is, you know, our software supply chain. So the way that we build applications that, you know we need to secure that better. We need to deal with these more dynamic environments. And then once the applications are deployed they interact with various types of networks. I need to better secure those environments too. So we realized that we needed to expand our functionality beyond the core platform of OpenShift. And then the second thing that we've learned over the last number of years is to be successful in this space, it's really hard to take technology that wasn't designed for containers, or it wasn't designed for Kubernetes and kind of retrofit it back into that. And so when we were looking at potential acquisition targets, we really narrowed down to companies whose fundamental technologies were you know, Kubernetes-centric, you know having had to modify something to get to Kubernetes, and StackRox was really the leader in that space. They really, you know have been the leader in enterprise Kubernetes security. And the great thing about them was, you know not only did they have this Kubernetes expertise but on top of that, probably half of their customers were already OpenShift customers. And about 3/4 of their customers were using you know, native Kubernetes services and other clouds. So, you know, when we went and talked to them and said, "Hey we believe in Kubernetes, we believe in multi-cloud. We believe in open source," they said, "yeah, those are all the foundational things for us." And to your point about it, you know, maybe not being an open source company, they actually had a number of sort of ancillary projects that were open source. So they weren't unfamiliar to it. And then now that the acquisition's closed, we will do what we do with every piece of Red Hat technology. We'll make sure that within a reasonable period of time that it's made open source. And so you know, it's good for the community. It allows them to keep focusing on their innovation. >> Yeah you've got to get that code out there cool. Brian, I'm hearing about Platform Plus what is that about? Take us through that. >> Yeah, so you know, one of the things that our customers, you know, have come to us over time is it's you know, it's like, I've been saying kind of throughout this discussion, right? Kubernetes is foundational, but it's become pretty stable. The things that people are solving for now are like, you highlighted lots and lots of clusters, they're all over the place. That was something that our advanced cluster management capabilities were able to solve for people. Once you start getting into lots of places you've got to be able to secure things everywhere you go. And so OpenShift for us really allows us to bundle together, you know, sort of the complete set of the portfolio. So the platform, security management, and it also gives us the foundational pieces or it allows our customers to buy the foundational pieces that are going to help them do multi and hybrid cloud. And, you know, when we bundle that we can save them probably 25% in terms of sort of product acquisition. And then obviously the integration work we do you know, saves a ton on the operational side. So it's a new way for us to, to not only bundle the platform and the technologies but it gets customers in a mindset that says, "hey we've moved past sort of single environments to hybrid and multi-cloud environments. >> Awesome, well thanks for the update on that, appreciate it. One of the things going into KubeCon, and that we're watching closely is this Cloud native developer action. Certainly end users want to get that in a separate section with you but the end user contribution, which is like exploding. But on the developer side there's a real trend towards adding stronger consistency programmability support for more use cases okay. Where it's becoming more of a data platform as a requirement. >> Brian: Right. >> So how, so that's a trend so I'm kind of thinking, there's no disagreement on that. >> Brian: No, absolutely. >> What does that mean? Like I'm a customer, that sounds good. How do I make that happen? 'Cause that's the critical discussion right now in the DevOps, DevSecOps day, two operations. What you want to call it. This is the number one concern for developers and that solution architect, consistency, programmability more use cases with data as a platform. >> Yeah, I think, you know the way I kind of frame this up was you know, for any for any organization, the last thing you want to to do is sort of keep investing in lots of platforms, right? So platforms are great on their surface but once you're having to manage five and six and, you know 10 or however many you're managing, the economies of scale go away. And so what's been really interesting to watch with Kubernetes is, you know when we first got started everything was Cloud native application but that really was sort of, you know shorthand for stateless applications. We quickly saw a move to, you know, people that said, "Hey I can modernize something, you know, a Stateful application and we add that into Kubernetes, right? The community added the ability to do Stateful applications and that got people a certain amount of the way. And they sort of started saying, okay maybe Kubernetes can help me peel off some things of an existing platform. So I can peel off, you know Java workloads or I can peel off, what's been this explosion is the data community, if you will. So, you know, the TensorFlows the PItorches, you know, the Apache community with things like Couchbase and Kafka, TensorFlow, all these things that, you know maybe in the past didn't necessarily, had their own sort of underlying system are now defaulting to Kubernetes. And what we see because of that is, you know people now can say, okay, these data workloads these AI and ML workloads are so important to my business, right? Like I can directly point to cost savings. I can point to, you know, driving innovation and because Kubernetes is now their default sort of way of running, you know we're seeing just sort of what used to be, you know small islands of clusters become these enormous footprints whether they're in the cloud or in their data center. And that's almost become, you know, the most prevalent most widely used use case. And again, it makes total sense. It's exactly the trends that we've seen in our industry, even before Kubernetes. And now people are saying, okay, I can consolidate a lot of stuff on Kubernetes. I can get away from all those silos. So, you know, that's been a huge thing over the last probably year plus. And the cool thing is we've also seen, you know the hardware vendors. So whether it's Intel or Nvidia, especially around GPUs, really getting on board and trying to make that simpler. So it's not just the software ecosystem. It's also the hardware ecosystem, really getting on board. >> Awesome, Brian let me get your thoughts on the cloud versus the power dynamics between the cloud players and the open source software vendors. So what's the Red Hat relationship with the cloud players with the hybrid architecture, 'cause you want to set up the modern day developer environment, we get that right. And it's hybrid, what's the relationship with the cloud players? >> You know, I think so we we've always had two philosophies that haven't really changed. One is, we believe in open source and open licensing. So you haven't seen us look at the cloud as, a competitive threat, right? We didn't want to make our business, and the way we compete in business, you know change our philosophy in software. So we've always sort of maintained open licenses permissive licenses, but the second piece is you know, we've looked at the cloud providers as very much partners. And mostly because our customers look at them as partners. So, you know, if Delta Airlines or Deutsche Bank or somebody says, "hey that cloud provider is going to be our partner and we want you to be part of that journey, we need to be partners with that cloud as well." And you've seen that sort of manifest itself in terms of, you know, we haven't gone and set up new SaaS offerings that are Red Hat offerings. We've actually taken a different approach than a lot of the open source companies. And we've said we're going to embed our capabilities, especially, you know OpenShift into AWS, into Azure into IBM cloud working with Google cloud. So we'd look at them very much as a partner. I think it aligns to how Red Hat's done things in the past. And you know, we think, you know even though it maybe easy to sort of see a way of monetizing things you know, changing licensing, we've always found that, you've got to allow the ecosystem to compete. You've got to allow customers to go where they want to go. And we try and be there in the most consumable way possible. So that's worked out really well for us. >> So I got to bring up the end user participation component. That's a big theme here at KubeCon going into it and around the event is, and we've seen this trend happen. I mean, Envoy, Lyft the laying examples are out there. But they're more end-use enterprises coming in. So the enterprise class I call classic enterprise end user participation is at an all time high in opensource. You guys have the biggest portfolio of enterprises in the business. What's the trend that you're seeing because it used to be limited to the hyperscalers the Lyfts and the Facebooks and the big guys. Now you have, you know enterprises coming in the business model is working, can you just share your thoughts on CloudNativeCons participation for end users? >> Yeah, I think we're definitely seeing a blurring of lines between what used to be the Silicon Valley companies were the ones that would create innovation. So like you mentioned Lyft, or, you know LinkedIn doing Kafka or Twitter doing you know, whatever. But as we've seen more and more especially enterprises look at themselves as software companies right. So, you know if you talk about, you know, Ford or Volkswagen they think of themselves as a software company, almost more than they think about themselves as a car company, right. They're a sort of mobile transportation company you know, something like that. And so they look at themselves as I've got to I've got to have software as an expertise. I've got to compete for the best talent, no matter where that talent is, right? So it doesn't have to be in Detroit or in Germany or wherever I can go get that anywhere. And I think what they really, they look for us to do is you know, they've got great technology chops but they don't always understand kind of the the nuances and the dynamics of open-source right. They're used to having their own proprietary internal stuff. And so a lot of times they'll come to us, not you know, "Hey how do we work with the project?" But you know like here's new technology. But they'll come to us and they'll say "how do we be good, good stewards in this community? How do we make sure that we can set up our own internal open source office and have that group, work with communities?" And so the dynamics have really changed. I think a lot of them have, you know they've looked at Silicon Valley for years and now they're modeling it, but it's, you know, for us it's great because now we're talking the same language, you know we're able to share sort of experiences we're able to share best practices. So it is really, really interesting in terms of, you know, how far that whole sort of software is eating the world thing is materialized in sort of every industry. >> Yeah and it's the workloads of expanding Cloud native everywhere edge is blowing up big time. Brian, final question for you before we break. >> You bet. >> Thanks for coming on and always great to chat with you. It's always riffing and getting the data out too. What's your expectation for KubeCon CloudNativeCon this year? What are you expecting to see? What highlights do you expect will come out of CloudNativeCon KubeCon this year? >> Yeah, I think, you know like I said, I think it's going to be much more on the Cloud native side, you know we're seeing a ton of new communities come out. I think that's going to be the big headline is the number of new communities that are, you know have sort of built up a following. So whether it's Crossplane or whether it's, you know get-ops or whether it's, you know expanding around the work that's going on in operators we're going to see a whole bunch of projects around, you know, developer sort of frameworks and developer experience and so forth. So I think the big thing we're going to see is sort of this next stage of, you know a thousand flowers are blooming and we're going to see probably a half dozen or so new communities come out of this one really strong and you know the trends around those are going to accelerate. So I think that'll probably be the biggest takeaway. And then I think just the fact that the community is going to come out stronger after the pandemic than maybe it did before, because we're learning you know, new ways to work remotely, and that, that brings in a ton of new companies and contributors. So I think those two big things will be the headlines. And, you know, the state of the community is strong as they, as they like to say >> Yeah, love the ecosystem, I think the values are going to be network effect, ecosystems, integration standards evolving very quickly out in the open. Great to see Brian Gracely Senior Director Product Strategy at Red Hat for the cloud business unit, also podcasts are over a million episode downloads for the cloud cast podcast, thecloudcast.net. What's it Brian, what's the stats now. >> Yeah, I think we've, we've done over 500 shows. We're you know, about a million and a half listeners a year. So it's, you know again, it's great to have community followings and, you know, and meet people from around the world. So, you know, so many of these things intersect it's a real pleasure to work with everybody >> You're going to create a culture, well done. We're all been there, done that great job. >> Thank you >> Check out the cloud cast, of course, Red Hat's got the great OpenShift mojo going on into KubeCon. Brian, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> Okay so CUBE coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> In mid-2014, announced the world, coming out of Google led by Joe Beda, sitting to my right, Brendan Burges and Craig McLucky, all Kube alumni. Kubernetes, which is the Greek for governor helmsman or captain and here we are, five years later at the show. I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. Joe you've got your title today is that you're a principal engineer at VMware of course, by way of acquisition through Heptio, but you are one of the people who helped start this journey that we are all on Kubernetes, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. >> Alright, so, the cake and the candles and the singing we'll hold for the parties later. We have Fippy and the gang have been watching our whole thing, for people who don't know there's a whole cartoon, books and stuffed animals and everything like that. Joe, when you started this merchandising, that was what you were starting, no. In all seriousness though, bring us back a little bit give us a little bit of historical context as to we've had you on the program a few times but yeah, here we are five years later was this what you were expecting? >> I mean when I remember Craig and Bren and I sitting around and we're like hey, we should do this as an open source project This is before we got approvals and got the whole thing started. And I think there was, like an idea in the back of our head, of like, this could be a big deal. You dream big a lot of times and you know that there's a reality and that it's not always going to end up being this. And so, I don't think anybody involved with Kubernetes in the early days really thought it was going to turn into what it has turned into. >> Yeah, so when we look at open source projects, I remember back a few years back, it was like to succeed you must have a phoenetical dictator that will make sure the community does this or wait we don't want too much vendor we're just going to let the user community take over and there's all these extremes out there, but these are complicated pieces. The keynote this morning the discussion was Kubernetes is a platform of platforms it's like I've got all of these APIs and by itself, Kubernetes doesn't do a lot. It is, what it enables and what things put together, so walk us through a little bit of that the mission, how it changed a bit and a little bit of the community and we'll go from there. >> Yeah, I think so early on one of the goals with Kubernetes from Google's point of view was to essentially take a lot of the ideas that had been incubated over about a decade, with respect to Borg and other things and so, a lot of the early folks who got involved in the project and worked on those systems and really bring that to the outside world as a way to actually start bridging the gap between what Googlers did and what the rest of the world did. We had a really good idea of what we were looking to get out of this system and that was widely shared based on experience across a bunch of relatively senior engineers. We brought in some of the Red Hat folks early on Clayton Coleman and some of the other folks who are still super involved in the project. I think there was enough of an understanding that we looked and said okay we got a lot of work to do let's just get this done. So, we didn't really need sort of the benevolent dictator because there was a shared understanding and we had senior engineers that were willing to make trade-offs to be able to go and move forward. So that I think was a key bit of the success early on. >> Alright, so you talked, it was pulling in some other vendor community there. Talk a little bit about how that ecosystem grew and when was user feedback part of that discussion? >> Yeah, I mean, when you say we pulled in the vendor we pulled in people who worked for vendors but we never really viewed it as, there was really from the beginning this idea of well what's good for the project? What's going to actually create sustainability and for the project, sort of project over vendor is really something that we wanted to establish. And that even came down to the name, right? Like, when we named the project, we could have called it Google XYZ or some sort of XYZ but we didn't want to do that because we wanted to establish it as an independent thing with a life of its own. And so, yeah, so we wanted to bring in those external ideas and I think early on, we did have some early users, we did listen to them but it really resonated with folks who could actually see where we were going. I think it took time for the rest of the world to really catch on with what the vision was. >> OK, when we look at today, there's a lot at the show that is on top of or next to or with Kubernetes it's not all about that piece. How do you balance what goes in it versus what goes with it? One of my favorite lines last year overall, was from you, saying Kubernetes is not a magic player it is not the be all and end all it is set with very specific guidelines. How do you avoid scope creep? As engineers it's always like, I don't know, we know how to do that piece of it better. >> So when we started out the project we didn't actually have a governance model. It was just a bunch of engineers that sort of worked well together. Over time and as the project grew, we knew that we needed to actually get some sort of structure in place. And so a bunch of us who had been there from the start got together, formed a steering committee, held elections. There's a secret architecture that we formed and these are the places where we can actually say what is Kubernetes what is Kubernetes not how do we actually maintain sort of good taste with how we actually approach this stuff and that's one of the ways that we try to contain scope creep. But also, I think everybody realizes that a thriving ecosystem whether officially part of the CNCF or adjacent to it, is good for everybody. Trying to hold on too tight is not going to be good for the project. >> So, Joe, tremendous progress in five years. Look forward for us a little bit. What does Kubernetes 2024 look like for us? >> Well a lot of folks like to say that in five years, Kubernetes is going to disappear. And sometimes they come at this from this sort of snarky angle. (chuckles) But other times, I think it's going to disappear in terms of like it's going to be so boring, so solid, so assumed that people don't talk about it anymore. I mean, we're here, at something that the CNCF is part of the Linux Foundation, which is great. But how often do people really focus on the Linux kernel these days? It is so boring, so solid, there's new stuff going on, but clearly, all the exciting stuff all the action, all the innovation is happening at higher layers. I think we're going to see something similar happen with Kubernetes over time. >> Yeah, that being said the reach of Kubernetes is further than ever. I was talking to this special interest group looking at edge computing and IoT people making the micro-cage version of this stuff when the team first got together, I mean, is you must look at and said there were many fathers, many parents of this solution, but, could you imagine the kind of the family and ecosystem that would have grown out of it? >> I think we knew that it could go there I mean, Google had some experience with this, I mean When Google bought YouTube, they had a problem where they had to essentially build out something that looked a little bit like a CDN. And so there were some examples of sort of like, how does technology, like Boar, adapt to an Edge type of situation. So, there was some experience to borrow we definitely knew that we wanted this thing to scale up and down. But I think that's a hallmark of these successful technologies is that they can be used in ways and in places that you really never thought about when you got started. So that's definitely true. >> Alright, Joe, want to give you the final word the contributors, the users, the ecosystem community, what do you say with five years of Kubernetes now in the books? >> I just want to send a huge thank you to everybody who made it happen. This is, it was started by Google it was started by a few of us early on. But, we really want to make it so that everybody feels like it's theirs. A lot of times Brendan Burns and me and Kelsey wrote a book together and I'll do signing and a lot of times I'll sign that and I'll say thank you for being a part of Kubernetes. Because I really feel like every user everybody who bets on it, everybody who shares their knowledge, they're really a big part of it. And so thank you to everybody who's a big part of Kubernetes. >> All right, well, Joe, thank you as always for sharing your knowledge with our community >> Thank you so much. >> We've been happy to be a small part in helping to spread the knowledge and everything going on here, so congratulations to the community on five years of Kubernetes and we'll be back with more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live coverage here in theCUBE, in Europe, at Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon Europe 2018. This is theCUBE. We have the CNCF, at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs, new venture around open source and innovation. Our analysts here, today with theCUBE, and our two guests are Michael Hausenblas, who's the direct developer advocate at Red Hat. Diane Meuller's the director of community development at Red Hat, talking about OpenShift, Red Hat, and just the rise and success of OpenShift. It's been really well-documented here on theCUBE, but certainly, in the industry, everyone's taking notice. Great to see you again, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you. >> And wonderful to be here again. >> So, first of all, a lot of big news going on. CoreOS is now part of Red Hat, so that's exciting. I haven't had a chance to talk to you guys about that yet here on theCUBE, but great, great puzzle piece from the industry there for you guys, congratulations. >> Yeah, it's been a wonderful collaboration, having the CoreOS team as part of the Red Hat, and the OpenShift team, it's just a perfect fit. And the team from CoreOS, they've always been my favorite people. Alright, and Brandon Philips and the team over there are just awesome. And to have the expertise from Tectonics, the operator framework, which you'll hear more about here at KubeCon EU this week, to have Quay under the wings of Red Hat now, and Quay is a registry with OpenShift or with any other Kubernetes, you know, the stuff that they brought to the table, and the expertise, as well as the wonderful culture that they had, it was such a perfect fit with OpenShift. >> And you know, you guys bring a lot to the table, too. And I was, I mean, I've been kind of critical of CoreOS in the past, in a good way, 'cause I love those guys. I had good chats with them over the years, but they were so pure open-source guys, like Red Hat. >> Diane: Well, there's nothing wrong with being pure open-source. (laughing) >> No, no, I'm cool with that, but you guys have perfected the business more, you have great customers. So one of the things that they were always strong at was the open-source piece but when you start to monetize, and you start to get into the commercialization, it's hard for a start-up to be both, pure open-source and to monetize. You guys now have it together, >> Yeah. >> Great fit. >> So, it's a wonderful thing. We, on the OpenShift side, we have the OpenShift Commons, which is our open-source community, and we've sort of flipped the model of community development and that's at Red Hat. And one of the things is, they've been really strong, CoreOS, with their open-source projects, whether etcd, or you know, a whole myriad of other things. >> Well, let's double down on that. I want to get your thoughts. What is this OpenShift Commons? Take a minute to talk about what you guys had. You had an event Monday. It was the word on the streets, here in the hallways, is very positive. Take a minute to explain what happened, what's going on with that program? >> So OpenShift Commons is the open-source community around OpenShift Origin, but it also includes all the upstream projects that we collaborate with, with everybody from the Kubernetes world, from the Promytheus, all the CNCF project leads, all kinds of people from the upstream projects that are part of the OpenShift Ecosystem, as well as all the service providers and partners, who are doing wonderful things, and all the hosts, like Google, and you know, Microsoft Azure folks are in there. But, we've kind of flipped the model of community development on its head. In the past, if you were a community manager, which is what I started out as, you were trying to get people to contribute to your own code base. And here, because there's so much cross-community collaboration going on, we've got people working on Kubernetes. We got Kubernetes people making commits to Origin. We work on the OCI Foundation, trying to get the container stuff all figured out. >> So when you say you flipped the model, you mean there's now multiple-project contributions going on, or? >> Yeah, we've got our fingers in lots of pies now, and we have to, the collaboration has to be open, and there has to be a lot of communication. So the OpenShift Commons is really about creating those peer-to-peer networks. We do a lot of stuff virtual. I host my own OpenShift Commons briefings twice a week, and I could probably go to three or four days a week, and do it, because there's so much information. There's a fire hose of new stuff, new features, new releases, and stuff. Michael just did one on FAS. You did one before for the machine-learning Saigon OpenShift on Callum. >> Hold on, I want to just get your thoughts, Michael, on this, because what came up yesterday on theCUBE, was integration glue layers are really important. So I can see the connection here. Having this Commons model allows people to kind of cross-pollenate, one. Two, talk about integration, because we've got Promytheus, I might use KubeFlow. So there's new things happening. What does this mean for the integration piece? Good for it, or accelerating it? What's your thoughts? >> Right, right, right. So, I mainly work upstream which means when it is KubeFlow and other projects. And for me, these kind of areas where you can bring together both, the developers, and the end users, which is super important for us to get the feedback to see where we really are struggling. We hear a lot from those people that meet there, what their pinpoints are. And that is the best way to essentially shape the agenda, to say, well, maybe let's prioritize this over this other feature. And as you mention, integration being one big part, and Functions and Service being, could be considered as the visual basics of applications for Cloud Native Computing. It can act as this kind of glue between different things there. And I'm super excited about Commons. That's for me a great place to actually meet these people, and talk with them. >> So the Commons is almost a cross-pollination of folks that are actually using the code, building the code, and they see other projects that makes sense to contribute to, and so it's an alignment where you allow for that cross-pollination. >> It's a huge series of conversations, and one of the things that is really important to all of the projects is, as Michael said, is getting that feedback from production deployments. People who are working on stuff. So we have, I think we're at around 375 organizational members, so there's... >> John: What percentage of end-user organizations, do you think? >> It's probably about 50/50. You know, you can go to Commons.OpenShift.org, and look up the participants list. I'm behind a little bit in getting everybody in there, but-- >> John: So it's a good healthy dose of end-users? >> It's a good healthy dose of end-users. There's some special interest groups. Our special interest groups are more around used cases. So, we just hosted a machine-learning reception two nights ago, and we had about 200 people in the room. I'd say 50% of them were from the KubeFlow community, and the other 50% were users, or people who are building frameworks for our people to run on OpenShift. And so our goal, as always, is to make OpenShift the optimal, the best place to run your, in this case, machine-learning workloads, or-- >> And I think that's super critical, because one of the things that I've been following a little bit, and you know, I have your blog entry in front of me, is the operator framework, and really what you're trying to do with that framework, and how it's progressing, and where it's going, and really, if you can talk a little bit about what you're doing there, I think that would be great for our viewers. >> So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure you get Brandon Philips here, on your KubeFlow, sometime this week, 'cause I don't want to steal the thunder from his keynote tomorrow morning-- >> Lauren: Well, drop a couple hints. (laughs) >> John: Share a little bit, come on. >> So the operator stuff that CoreOS, and they brought it to the table, so it's really their baby. They had done a lot of work to make sure that they had first-class access to be able to inject things into Kubernetes itself, and make it run. And they're going to do a better technical talk on it than I am, and make things run. And so that what they've done is they've opened up and created an STK for operators, so other people can build more. And we think, this is a tipping point for Kubernetes, and I really don't want to steal any thunder here, or get in over my head, is the other part of it, too. >> I think Brandon is the right person to talk about that. >> Brandon, we'll drag Brandon over here. >> I'm super excited about it, but let's-- >> Yeah, let's talk about why you're super excited about it. Is there anything you can kind of tell us in terms of what? >> Enables people to run any kind of workload in communities, in a reliable automated fashion. So you bring the experience that human operators have into software. So you automate that application, which makes it even more suitable to run your enterprise application that so far might have not been the best place to run. >> Lauren: That's great, yeah. >> And yeah, I'm also looking forward to Brandon explaining the details there. >> So I think it's great hearing about that, and we talk a lot about how it's great for users. It's great, you know, operators, developers, how they're building things out, and things along those lines. But one of the things that we are not hearing a ton about here, and we want to hear more about, is security. Security is increasingly important. You know, we're hearing bits and pieces but nothing's really kind of coming together here and what're your thoughts on that? >> Security, I was recently, when I blogged about it, and people on Twitter said, well, is that really true that, you know, couldn't this secure body fall? It's like, well, all the pieces are there. You need to be aware of it. You need to know what you're doing. But it is there, right? All the defaults might not be as you would expect it, but you can enable it. And I think we did a lot of innovations there, as well. With our back, and security context, and so on. And, actually, Liz Rice and myself are working on putting the security cookbook, and for a variety that will come out later this year. We're trying to document the best practice, because it is early days, and it's quite a range of things. From building container images in a secure way, to excess control, and so on, so there's a lot of stuff (mumbles). >> What're some of the end-user feedback sessions, or feedback data that you're getting from these sessions? What is some of the things you guys are hearing? What's the patterns? What's the things that are boiling up to the top? >> Well, there's so many. I mean, this conference is one of those ones where it's a cornucopia of talks, and trying to, I just wrote a little blog post called, The Hitchhiker's Guide to KubeCon. It's on blog.openshift.com. And because, you could spend all of your time here in a different track, and never leave it, like Security 1, or in Operations 1, or-- >> John: There's a lot of great content. >> I think the Istio stuff is probably the hottest thing I'm hearing people going to. There was a great deep-dive training session, hands-on on Monday, here, that got incredible feedback. IBM and Google did that one. We had a lot of customer talks and hands-on training sessions on Monday. Here, there are pretty much, there's a great talk coming up this afternoon, on Kube Controllers that Magic... I think that's at 11:45-ish. There are a lot of the stuff around Service Fish, and service brokers, is really kind of the hot thing that people are looking for to get implemented. And we've got a lot of people from Red Hat working on that. There's, oh man, there's etcd updtes, there's a bazillion things going-- >> John: It's exploding big time here. >> Yeah. >> No doubt about it. >> The number one thing that I'm seeing last couple of months, being onsite with customers, and also here, is that given that Kubernetes is now the defective standard of container authorization, people are much more willing to go all-in, you know? >> Yeah. >> A lot of folks were on the fence, for a couple of years, going like, which one's going to make it? Now, it's kind of like, this is a given. You couldn't, you know, just as Linux is everywhere on the servers, that's the same with Kubernetes, and people are now happy to really invest, to like, okay, let's do it now, let's go all in. >> Yeah, and, what we're hearing, too, just stepping back and looking at the big picture is we see the trend, kind of hearing and connecting the dots, as the number of nodes is going to expand significantly. I mean, Sterring was on stage yesterday, and we heard their, and still small, not a lot of huge, not a lot on a large scale. So, we think that the scale question is coming quickly. >> Well, I think it already came, alright? In the machine-learning reception that we had at night, one of the gentleman, Willem Bookwalter, from Microsoft, and Diane Feddema, from Red Hat, and a whole lot of people are talking about how do we get, because machine-learning workloads, have such huge work, you know, GPU, and Google has their TPU requirements to get to scale, to run these things, that people are already pushing the envelope on Kubernetes. Jeremy Eater from Red Hat has done some incredible performance management work. And on the CNCF blog, they've posted all of that. To get the optimal performance, and to get the scale, is now, I think, one of the next big things, and there's a lot of talks that are on that. >> Yeah, and that's Istio's kind of big service mesh opportunity there, is to bring that to the next level. >> To the next level, you know, there's going to be a lot of things that people are going to experience trying to get the most out of their clusters, but also, I think we're still at the edge of that. I mean, someone said something about getting to 2,500 nodes. And I'm like, thinking, that's just the beginning, baby. >> Yeah, it's going to be more, add a couple zeroes. I got to ask you guys, I got to put you both on the spot here, because it's what we do on theCUBE. You guys are great supporters of theCUBE. We appreciate that, but we've had many conversations over the years with OpenShift, going back to OpenStacks, I don't know what year it was, maybe 2012, or I don't know. I forget what year it was. Now, the success of OpenShift was really interesting. You guys took this to a whole 'nother level. What's the reaction? Are you, as you look back now on where you were with OpenShift and where you are today, do you pinch yourself and say, damn? Or what's your view? >> Red Hat made a big bet on Kubernetes three years ago, three and a half years ago, when people thought we were crazy. You know, they hadn't seen it. They didn't understand what Google was trying to open-source, and some of the engineers inside of Red Hat, Clayton Coleman, Matt Hicks, a lot of great people, saw what was coming, reached out, worked with Google. And the rest of us were like, well, what about Ruby and Rails, and Mongo DB, and you know, doing all this stuff? And like, we invested so much in gears and cartridges. And then, once they explained it, and once Google really open-sourced the whole thing, making that bet as a company, and pivoting on that dime, and making version 3.0 of OpenShift and OpenShift Origin, as a Kubernetes-based platform, as a service, and then, switching over to being a container platform, that was a huge thing. And if you had talked to me back then, three years ago, it was kind of like, is this the right way to go? But, then, you know, okay. >> Well, it's important to history to document that point, because I remember we talked about it. And one of the things, you guys made a good bet, and people were scratching their head, at that time. >> Oh yeah. >> Big time. But also, you've got to give credit to the community, because the leaders in the community recognized the importance of Kubernetes early on. We've been in those conversations, and said, hey, you know, we can't screw this up, because it was an opportunity. People saw the vision, and saw it as a great opportunity. >> I think, as much as I like the technical bits, as an engineer, the API being written and go, and so on, I really think the community, that is what really makes the difference. >> Yeah, absolutely does. >> If you compare it with others, they're also successful. But here with CNCF, all the projects, all the people coming together, and I love the community, I really-- >> It's a case study of how to execute, in my opinion. You guys did a great job in your role, and the people didn't get in the way and try to mess it up. Great smart people understood it, shepherded it through, let it grow. >> And it really is kudos to the Kubernetes community, and the CNCF, for incubating all of this wonderful cross-community collaboration. They do a great job with their ambassadors program. The Kubernetes community does amazing stuff around their SIGs, and making sure that projects get correctly incubated. You know, they're not afraid to rejig the processes. They've just done a wonderful thing, changing the way that new projects come into the Kubernetes, and I think that willingness to learn, learn from mistakes, to evolve, is something that's really kind of unique to the whole new way of thinking about open-source now, and that's the change that we've seen. >> And open-source, open movements, always have a defining moment. You know, the OSI model, remember? That stack never got fully standardized but it stopped at a really important point. PCPIP, IP became really important. The crazy improbability world, CISCO, as we know, and others. This is that kind of moment where there's going to be a massive wealth creation, value creation opportunity because you have people getting behind something, as a de facto standard. And then, there's a lot of edge work around it that can be innovated on. I think, to me, this is going to be one of those moments we look back on. >> Yeah, and I think it's that willingness to adjust the processes, to work with the community, and you know, that Kubernetes, the ethos that's around this project, we've learned from a lot of other foundations' mistakes. You know, not that they're better or worse, but we've learned that you could see the way we're bringing in new projects, and adding them on. We took a step back as a community, and said okay, this is, we're getting too many, too soon, too fast. And maybe, this is not quite the right way to go. And rather than doing the big tent umbrella approach, we've actually starting doing some really re-thinking of our processes, and the governing board and the TOC of the CNCF, have done an awesome job getting that done. >> When you got lightning in a bottle, you stop and you package it up, and you run with it, so congratulations. Red Hat Summit next week, we'll be there, theCUBE. >> Oh yeah. >> Looking forward to going deep on this. >> Well, the OpenShift Commons Gathering is the day before Red Hat Summit. We've completely sold out, so sorry, there's a waitlist. We've gone from being, our first one, I think we had 150 people come. There's over 700 people now coming to the Gathering one, and 25 customers with production deployments speaking. This is the day before Red Hat Summit. And I lost count of how many OpenShift stories are being told at Red Hat Summit. It's going to be a crazy, jetlag-y week, next week, so-- >> Congratulations, you guys got a spring in your step, well done. OpenShift going to the next level, certainly the industry and Kubernetes, a service mesh as Istio. Lot of great coverage here in theCUBE, here in Europe for KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier, and Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs. I'm with theCUBE, we'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us! Day Two, here at KubeCon, we'll be right back. (upbeat techno music)

live from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone we are live here in Austin Texas for this the cube exclusive coverage of the cloud native con and cube con kubernetes con north america 2017 I'm John Fourier wrapping up the show of two days of live coverage it was dude Minutemen and Justin Warren analysts with the cube guys you guys are out in the hallways Justin you read all the sessions still we've been doing interviews great shows second year full year was a standalone show it was kind of you know a small show last year but really amazing size seven forty five hundred people or so a lot of logos diamond sponsors platinum sponsors gold sponsors silver sponsors startup sponsors media partners it's a freaking commercial party yet tons of developers tons of action so it's not so much a vendor show a lot of vendor interest in what is the a-list developers in this new way to program new way to build services from lyft donating massive to envoy code Google bringing in massive code a lot of contributions a lot of energy a lot of tech action let's wrap it up do yeah so John first of all you I I we had covered the show last year you had gone done it I seen the buzz around kubernetes so I had a certain expectation and actually it's a the show exceeded my expectation you know Dan conan told us we're gonna have over 4,000 people so that it wasn't the size of it but just the quality of the people and the interactions here you know we've been in other shows you know over the years with the cube where you've had you know those builders and you know smart people but wow you know you walk around here people that have done some of these things many time and as we were talking with a number of them it's you know there's some of this infrastructure and really trying to you know solve some of these things and make infrastructure boring that now we've been beating on for years as well as you know it's really helping the applications and I like it this really kind of bridges you know those environments because infrastructure has always known the reason we have infrastructure is to help the applications and for too long infrastructure has been this boat anchor and you know smart people who've been through you know lots of battles before and it feels a little different it feels like we were making some progress you know just and I were talking ahead of the show I remember when we wrapped up Amazon last week it's like serverless holds a lot of promise well server list does not eclipse all of the cloud native and kubernetes stuff here we're actually seeing some of the intersection I know I want to hear Justin's take on some of it but you know a lot of good things you know just in 20 or 50 sessions here they're all online by the way on their YouTube channel for the CN CF you had a chance to kind of walk with always go to some sessions what did you find most exciting what was the notable point the comment sessions here have been spectacular I agree with you the quality of the attendees from from from customers from people who are building the things from vendors it's it's really really high quality stuff the sessions are really technical it depends on which part of the ecosystem you want to dive into so there's not as much in entry level and high level stuff so people who were involved in this ecosystem know what they're doing so it'll be interesting to see how that changes over the next couple of years I expect that there's going to be a bit more intro level thing although boring is the new exciting so maybe there will be no need to do a lot of the intro stuff because it'll be abstracted away so there's a lot of projects that are about basically about making everything easy that is the goal that's what I'm hearing around the conference today and there's lots of there we saw in the keynote yesterday the idea of meta particle which is basically layering extra layers of abstraction on top of kubernetes we saw it again in the keynote with Chen today where they're trying to put different services on top of kubernetes so essentially kubernetes goes away and just becomes invisible it's like plumbing Clayton Coleman mentioned that from Red Hat making containers boring I agree boring is the new black that means boring is working that's foundational to me I think I'm excited by the fact that we're it's not a lot of land grabbing so to speak on it by the vendors it's very foundational tech and people are focused on don't screw it up let's we got a good thing going on it was goober Nettie's that's kind of the vibe I'm sensing and then the excitement of opportunity yeah there seems to be a lot of that anything jump out at you Justin on in terms of tech hallway conversations notable emerging projects that's your eye as catching up with you just before the show we we were talking about what are you looking forward to and for me two of the big things was service and storage like state management and I agree with you those are the two things that still aren't really solve I just came from the server that's working group just before coming on here and there are still a whole bunch of foundational questions about what service actually is is it function to the service is it more than that does s3 count as as something which is service because you don't actually care about which server you're hitting maybe that's service so there's still a lot of work to be done there about defining what that looks like and creating some standards around things standards is apparently a dirty word which I thought it was a bit strange that this whole idea of what standards a great isn't it it's great it's a standard which are which allows you to build other things on top of that I think we're going to see more and more of that that's what we've seen with kubernetes that's one of the the great benefits of having this standardized thing run by CN CF is everyone else can take that off the table as a as a competitive thing so we're not trying to outdo each other and be more kubernetes than anyone else instead people are building things on top of that so we're seeing storage providers like diamante we're seeing networking providers who are doing things with sto and we've works so that ecosystem is being deliberately created by taking some of that competitive pressure off the table okay that's a great point I want to bring that stool and get your thoughts because we interviewed Ben seek single men from lights light stats and he's super smart guy great conversation where things I asked him about his innovation around communities and he says look it you got a is building communities and having them run things is not as good as being forced to come together around standards you mentioned Ethernet a lot of the OSI model was formulated because if you didn't standardize there was no outcome for anybody yeah so there's that kind of going on with kubernetes where just has come together let's it should be a good word and it was done deliberately I was again talking with Jen that like community is is a kind of a buzzword of the cook of the conference there are specific things that have been done to build a community here it's not just about technology it's about the people and we've got things like the diversity scholarships that we saw on on the first day we're 103 people were were sponsored to come here and be on this conference yeah you know I come into something like that a little bit skeptical when you want to poke at things you know coming off of the Amazon show it's there are many people that are scared of Amazon this show everybody's actually really happy and they're like great it's no longer Hadrian made it made a comment to us he's like it's not the everybody about Amazon Club they're here and everybody's actually happy they're here now you know some of the things they're doing will still kind of play out over time but community it's real John did the amount of smart men and women that we talk to I agree with you blew my mind I mean and who we just had on you know you mentioned you know some of the other guests we've had on just super high quality you know just density you brought up a good point this is something that we hadn't talked about this could bring it up Amazon yes last week we're talking about the Amazon how they're winning everything else everyone's reacting to Amazon and this show is reacting to Amazon in a positive way because the culture here they're from the same tech religion if you want to call it a religion they're cloud native they buy the Amazon value proposition yeah so it's not like this is an anti-feminist on crowd if anything they're all going hey Thank You Amazon keep validating micro services I mean why would you it is very much a yes and it's like cloud great what else can we do let's do more of that let's let's layer things on top of this cloud thing and let's in fact go multiplayer let's put with cloud all the things yeah and the competition strategy is gonna be interesting by the families and what's what's great is that they're enabling stuff so to me we're gonna see where the value will be created obviously the software engineering piece it's going to be a big definition I think so the word software engineering now means something you look at all the tech here it's software engineering then the application developers our application developers they're not engineering plumping right so I mean so you're gonna start to see you know that kind of roll so this new ecosystem might emerge you guys reaction to that I mean John look kubernetes commoditized it's no longer you know there's not the orchestration Wars we talked about this coming in it was one of the things that surprised me is this Kelsey said on his keynote this one actually wasn't any really big surprises this community has a lot of transparency so if you're plugged in if you're talking to the people we understand the roadmap there's a lot of projects and nobody can keep up with all the changes but some of the base pieces we understand where that is the the service mesh piece you know huge participation people go into the sessions everybody's interest learning to it and there's so many pieces where people who contribute customers are getting value and it's still very very early days I I love the line they said it's like hey 4100 people here that's probably everyone running kubernetes right now with around the world so you know John I how BIG's this gonna get you know what do we say and I'd love to get just let's take us he was more in the hallways but just to kind of smell on the vibe here and kind of feeling it and read the tea leaves and if things if they smell brisk if the CNC F doesn't screw it up which I don't think they will cuz Dan's very confident they got a great team I do agree with Justin this is a community that was designed by the people first that have the right principles and and know what they want and then will allow detect the form so I think we might see an easier decision around standards if that all happens things like standards and whatnot to make it grow I think this could be a little mini reinvent going on here so I feel a lot like reinvents do our first time there where you know we got all the best guests because such a small community now it's so popular we got it they're all booked up and we're trying to grab guests I think this could be as big as reinvent in not as now but eventually this could be an industry event because if this all works out you're going to see two major audiences those software engineering plumbers and then on the application side that's going to be the business logic like they've been talking about and then that's going to create value ecosystem a third new constituency if that happens it's a services world and it's a you know twenty thousand person show yeah I can definitely see this growing into a big big show we don't have many industry independent shows anymore most of them are a particular vendors ecosystem this one is yeah that's like kubernetes came from Google but it's the CNC F is an independent body they're being very careful about which projects that they add in I was speaking with a lot of the members and of the of the founding board and they are being very careful to not make the same mistakes that's happened with OpenStack they've learned a lot of the lessons from OpenStack and and other communities as well so they're making some deliberate decisions based on experience and knowledge that they've gained from other places so that this will be sustainable and that it can grow into something really really big and I'll just add to your point there Dan Cohen said on the opening keynote they specifically designed it to be a technical event yes not a business event yes Stu that takes a question cube con with a-c-c ube could be the business of kubernetes get out there confuse your prediction for 2018 we're bringing our best coverage guys thanks for commentary last word thoughts this show sum it up wrap it up cube all the things yeah I mean just impressive John after you know this is our last big event of the year you know just so you know humbled to be able to be you know in this community meet some amazing people and you know share it with our audience you know that this community is something that comes out of this we do community with the K I guess for kubernetes yeah I think high quality okay purposeful high integrity and smart and I think that is formula that will play well love the diversity love all the action guys great great wrap-up Justin's do is the cube here wrapping up coop con cloud native con North America 2017 in Austin Texas thanks for watching of course visit Silk'n angle calm and youtube.com which I still contain go the cube net and we keep on comm and special shout out to Red Hat for all the great support appreciate it and continued success to Red Hat the cubes signing off from Austin Texas thanks for watching