>>from San Francisco. It's the Q covering pager duty. Summit 2019. Brought to you by pager Duty. >>Hey, welcome back. You're ready, Jeff? Rick here with the Cube. We're downtown San Francisco at the historic Western St Francis. A pager. Duty summit. It's the fourth year pager duty Summit, 30 year for the Q. Being here, I think they've about outgrown the venue. So he looked forward to seeing where we go next year. But we're excited to have somebody is at a very busy day. A lot of product announcements leading a lot of this effort. He's Jonathan. Randy, this s V P. Of product for pager duty. Jonathan, great to see you. Thanks for having me. So, congratulations. A lot of Ah lot of product announcements today. >>This is our biggest unveiling of the year. >>What s so I don't want you to pick your favorite baby, but what are some of the highlights? That goddess here today? >>Yes, a couple of big things today and tomorrow, not just today. >>Uh, >>first, we're really focused on applying. It is the buzzword of the sense of the new Millennium machine learning, but we're applying it across our entire portfolio, and we're doing it in a good way, not in a creepy way. We're doing in a good way to help organizations make sense of all the data they're getting. Tell him what's happening and, more importantly, what they could do to get better. And so that's something that we call our intelligence Dashboards is part of our analytics products. That's one big one, right? Right. And as you probably know, being here, pager duty is all about helping teams to be more effective in the moments that matter. And one of the other big announcements we have is intelligent triage. And so what is it way See with There's a lot of great companies here, partners that we're working with and whenever they're working, major issues within their companies were seconds, matter or even microseconds. They could lose millions of dollars that work in real time. They'll find out that there's multiple teams working on the same problems on Lee for one team to find out that somebody's undoing some of things that they're doing. So we focused in a huge way on building context, the visibility so that the teams in see what other issues air related That's what we call intelligent triage. So nobody needs to do double work, >>right? It's funny on the on the A I right in machine learning because they are the hot, hot, hot buzzword. But what I don't think are the hot buzzards, which is where all the excitement is happening, is it's the applied A I it's not Aye aye, for a eyes sake. Or were great. Aye aye company with an aye aye widget that we want to sell you. It's really leveraging a I within your core application space, your core domain expertise to make your abs do better things. And that's really what you guys have embraced. >>Absolutely. It's way have to be so empathetic to our users. Are users carry an unbelievable burden. They are on the front lines when things go down. They have, you know, minutes, seconds to make right decisions, and there's a lot of responsibility with that. So we're using a I in applied way to help them make sense of being overloaded with information, focus them in on the things that can make the biggest positive impact right, So it is applied a I in its purest form and >>the other part I found interesting is really anak knowledge mint that it's not just the people that have to fix the problem that needs to know about the problem, but there's a much larger kind of ecosystem that ecosystem around. That problem, whether it's sales reps executive for certain, is a whole bunch of people that should know, need to know, have value, to know beyond just the really smart person that I've now put on fixing the >>problem. You're bringing up a great point, which is a lot of people know page of duty because of how we help technical teams, developers and office people fix these incidents. When they happen right when a site goes down or when something search isn't working correctly but getting work done. We're taking that in its broadest context. It's beyond technical responders. First we have to service them. They're our core audience. They're why we're here today. But that unit of work getting work done goes beyond them as you're saying. It goes to what we call business responders who I could be working in a customer service team and while that incident is happening, I need that information so that I can ready my communication in case somebody calls up the sports desk and opens up a ticket. I need to know what to tell him right when it's gonna be fixed and how we're addressing their problems. Or I could be the CFO, a stakeholder and just want to know what's the real revenue impact of this outage of this time? So whether I'm taking action or I just need to know these air people outside of the sphere of the technical team and their business responders and stakeholders and we're automating the flow of information all of them so that they don't interrupt the poor responders team so they can focus on their work, >>right? Yeah. Another concept that kind of clarified today is all of your guys partnerships. You know, you've listened on your integration page on the Web site. It's clear. Well, data dog sales for Zenda Sumo AWS service now last CNN, IBM Blue mix. I mean, it's they can't go through the whole list. It's a huge list, but I think confusion in the market or maybe clarification is helpful is, you know, kind of where to those systems play versus your system when that Everyone wants to be a system of record, right? Everybody wants to be the database that has all the all the information. And yet you figured out a way to take your capabilities and augment all these other platforms and really puts you in a nice play across a really wide range of a problem. Sets. >>Yeah, it's it's so core to who we are way like to think of our pager duty platform. I always refer to it as it's a central nervous system, and what does that really mean? We always say it's a central nervous system and pager duty is about people. So all of those vendors, all of those companies, they're all valued partners. Many of them are customers of pager duty as well. They use us to keep their service is up on the monitoring world. But what pager duty is always focused on is ensuring that people two people collaboration to get real work done based on the information coming from those folks. So a lot of those vendors out there they play such an invaluable part of the ecosystem. They let us know they provide all the telemetry in the information in the data way, make sense of it and then engage people Finish that work. So in a way, you know that central nervous system is taking all these impulses just like a really central nervous system. And we're engaging the right people to help them effectively get the right right, and we couldn't do it without them. So the famous 350 plus way couldn't do what we do without them, and they're all here today. You >>didn't think I was going to read the whole hunt 350 >>Hope. That would be a long way >>Hades in desk on. And I know that was part of the new customer service and has been getting, you know, kind of your value kind of closer to the actual customer transaction. It's always in support of the customer transactions. The website's down transaction close, but this actually has taken it to the next level toe. Have a direct contact to the person who's actually engaged with the client to give them or inside is what's going on as being resolved in these type thing with a two way communication pattern. >>Yeah, it's something I'm personally really excited about. Where customer of zendesk as well. So we use end us and they use pager duty. So we get a lot of feedback on what's working, what's not working, which informed us and what we were doing. But there's two big problems in the industry that I've seen over, you know, two plus decades, which is customer service and support teams. They're dealing also on the front lines. Having them communicate and get information from development teams isn't always easy. And so both of us are really interested in kind of breaking down the walls between those organizations. But doing so in a way that's not interrupting those teams when they're doing their work that they have, right, so one, that's what we wanted to accomplish. How can we share information seamlessly automatically? So both teams are in sync, but they're not pestering each other and then to that work that's being done on the development side, when something does go wrong in a devil apps world, now, the customer support agents, the service agents they can get ahead of those cases that are being opened up, so they're not in the dark. They're not being flooded by tons of cases being opened up and they don't know what to say. They ready their communications and push it out because they're insane. >>It's really you think pager duty and notifications were surrounded by all these dashboards and computer stuff, but you made a really instant comment. It's all about the people you guys commissioned. A study called I'm gonna read an unplanned work, the human impact of an always on world and really going after unplanned work. Now it's funny, because everyone always talks about unplanned maintenance and on scheduled maintenance and the impacts on aircraft and the impacts on power generation and aircraft. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone couch it as as unplanned, which is completely disruptive fours on people and their lives, not to mention their service workers. And, according to the study, 2/3 of her pissed off and not too happy the way things are going at work anyway, with what kind of was zenith of that. And that's a really great way to reframe this problem into something much more human. >>The genesis of this all came from the concept that a CZ you'll read a lot we say we're always on. Let's keep it that way. Let's help help everyone. Keep it that way. It's a mantra with pager duty, and it comes from again when I say Genesis, it comes from even within our platform way. Don't have me Windows. We are on 24 7 360 days a year way have to be up when other service's aren't because of that. Whenever we work with organizations or vendors that that we pay for. And they say we have a maintenance window like a maintenance window my partner in crime runs engineering team are meant for. He always says maintenance Windows air for cars, not SAS software like there are no maintenance windows. And what that means as a first step is, if that's the case, there's no maintenance windows you're always on. Then you have to answer this question of how much time are you really spending unplanned work interruptions, right? So we really started taking not the heart. We really started trying to figure out what is the percentage everybody's trying to innovate more. That's planned war, right? Is it? 10% is a 20%. Is it 50%? The best organizations we see our 20 to 25% is unplanned work. We'll >>need 25% for the best organization. >>Yeah, so means not. So best organizations are very different, right? And so way feel that we uniquely can help organizations get way better at cutting down that time so that they can innovate more, Right? They're not firefighting. They're actually innovating and growing their business right. That's a big part of how we help people in these organizations do their job better. >>God, that's before you get in contact. Switching and pressure and disruption and >>way found some amazing statistics in my prior life. Iran Engineering. And it was at a sauce company. And what I found was whenever customers, whenever my top engineers would be put on Call Way, didn't have pager duty at the time, and they would be on call and interrupted on consecutive nights in the middle of the night. First, I would typically hear about when somebody was burned out is when I would see a resignation letter on my desk or somebody way no, after two or three or four successive interruptions in someone's personal life that goes on where they feel they're not being productive. One, they aren't productive at work either, to they're a huge retention risk. So way have that kind of data. We can look at it, and we can help management and organizations help them. And their teams take better care of their teams so that, you know, they're they're being more humane, humane knots, not human off pain, All right. And how you deal with those most expensive precious resource is in your company, which are your people is really important >>when they walk out the door every night, you know? So you gotta take care of him. So they come back the next day. It is? Yes. All right, Jonathan, last question is you as we wait, we're not quite done with some yet, but as we come to the closest on her arm really busy year. The AIPO. You guys have done amazing things, but you kind of flipped the calendar. Look forward. What are some of your kind of priorities as we as >>we move forward? Yeah. So it's been a crazy year. A lot of change and a couple things going forward. One were big partners with Amazon in a W S S O were attending reinvent. That's a big event for the company, but also at this event. As I mentioned before, it's probably our biggest unveiling of new innovations and products for our entire 12,000 plus customers. So for us, it may seem like it's an end. It's really just the beginning, because all of these products and intelligent triage business response, intelligent dashboards, these products that are apart, his capabilities that are part of our analytics and events intelligence on the pager duty, platform way have to keep evolving This we have to keep kind of moving forward because the world is always on and we've got to keep it that way. >>What? Andre just had a great line in his keynote about being scared is the generator of wisdom. But here it is, right here. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Not necessarily fear, but fear getting caught. Keep moving that we have ahead of the pack. All right, Jonathan, Thanks for taking a few minutes and congratulations. I'm sure tough getting all those new babies out this week, but what a great what a great job. Thank you so much. All right. Pleasure. He's Jonathan. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube. Where? Pager duty Summit in San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and it's Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to, guys, Cisco Live. Introducing some new innovations, Stu and Dave, around reinventing networking. Couple big themes, big announcements around ACI Anywhere application-centric infrastructure, HyperFlex, and the new CloudCenter Suite, where they are doubling down on cloud, redefining the network. Stu we've been here last year, been watching Cisco. Policy based, intent based networking. Cisco's tying it all together with new branding, The bridge to tomorrow. Your thoughts. >> Yeah John, I actually, I like some of the new branding. The bridge to tomorrow. I've been critical of Cisco. Cisco always said, oh well, you know networking's everywhere and it's really important. Well okay, but where's the meat, where's the detail behind this? They've done a number of acquisitions in the space. They're making sure they understand where they are. They had some failures along the way. I mean you know call a spade a spade, John. They are going to be a leader in multicloud. It's where they want to be, but they had some falters along in being a public cloud. You know the Intercloud message that they had. They confused the service providers. We didn't understand how they played with the hyperscale players and now they're understanding where they sit. SD-WAN, critically important. Where they live in the Data Center and It's interesting we talked about do we care about the Data Center or do we care about where the data is centered, and of course that is not in one place, but it is many places. We know customers today live in a multicloud world. How I get to my data, how I leverage my data is critically important, and the networking and management is something that is critical across all those. Right, as you said, ACI and HyperFlex, the CloudCenter Suite I know is an area I know we're going to dig into a bunch this week, because cisco has an opportunity to play across these environments. But Cisco has been trying for a long time to be the manager of managers in these environments. I think back to things that Dave Vellante and the Wikibon team and I have done for years, talking about how you manage in this heterogeneous world and it's just, instead of multivendor we are talking multiclass. >> Multiclass. And you know what everything is coming together, Dave. We've been covering Cisco, with looking at the timing of the positioning. It seems to be coming together and around the rebranding, which by the way I agree with Stu, I like it. The bridge to tomorrow, it resonates with me. Maybe because I am from the Bay area. But they're bridging two worlds, they're bridging On-Premises and cloud together in a very seamless way and elegant way architecturally. So the branding ties in with really much a rounding out of the portfolio, so a lot of storylines to follow: the new branding, Chuck Robbins getting his sea legs now as Cisco goes to the next level. And clearly they see multicloud as their positioning because this has been Cisco's core position for many many years, this idea of enabling other people to do innovation, whether it's applications and work loads. Now they're connecting two worlds. Your thoughts on the timing and their position vis-a-vis the industry. >> Well, Cisco talked this morning in the keynote about another bridge. On one side of the network is users and devices. On the other side of the network are applications and data. And we've talked for years about how the network is flattening and traffic is going east, west, et cetera. But interclouding if you will, puts increased pressure on that and it's clearly Cisco's strategy to be the best at connecting, whether it's On-Prem and public clouds or between public clouds. Cisco's got to make the case that on our networks you're going to be higher performance and more secure. That's certainly what they're implying. They're also making a big transition from being a hardware company to a software company. When you listen to VMware talk about Cisco, they talk about oh they make the best hardware, the best switches. Cisco's like, they're talking software capabilities across the network, new architectures, reinventing, coming at it from the network which is obviously their strong point. And it just really sets up an interesting competitive dynamic between Cisco, certainly VMware, who's trying to do networking and storage what it did to servers. And now you've got IBM and Red Hat coming at it from applications and the development perspective. We're here in the DevNet Zone, and I think that's the other piece of the announcements that we're hearing today is developers can actually program with things IoT and new Use Cases. So, pretty exciting times. >> Stu, storylines around the Data Center, you made the comment and it was kind of a play on words on the keynote. Data is centered, centered, dash, ED, center-ed. So the Data Center concept is moving into the data being center the value proposition. This has been interesting because if you look at what DevNet has spawned and DevNet create under Susie Wee's leadership, you saw the role of APIs. So if data moves around the network, and that's the core competency of Cisco, moving packets from point A to point B, adding automation, adding intelligence, with intent based networking and cloud enabling it on the other side. You got to have access to data, it's got to be traversing and inter operating with multiple environments. This is now a architectural standard. Is Cisco from a product portfolio standpoint, whether it's security analytics, cloud apps management, IoT, and networking. Does it all come together? Your thoughts. >> Yeah so, first of all, Cisco plays in a lot of these environments. We talk not just Data Center but when you talk about branch office, something Cisco has been doing a really long time. And how do I network between all of those remote locations and my central location. And my central location might not be the data center, it might be a or multiple public clouds out there. So Cisco's been attacking this backed WAN optimization many years ago. SD-WAN really has taken that and much more. Super important when we talk about this multicloud environment and how I get that connectivity, so they're there. And Cisco from the ground up has gone through a lot of rebuild. So the CloudCentre Suite we talked about, micro services architecture built with Kubernetes, into that API economy that we're talking about which is a lot of what we talked about here in the DevNet Zone. Absolutely Cisco has, they're known in this space. They have a lot of the skills. They have a very broad platform of products out there. David Goeckeler this morning, he was just reeling off all the different areas they play to in saying, you know, we've got like 6,000 people in the opening key note and he's like I came and look at this room and I've got like 4x the amount of engineers working on your network and security issues that were here. Like 24,000 people. It's an army. There's a few companies outside of Google, Amazon and Microsoft that can haul on that engineering strength and that's just the internal place, what we love. We talked to Susie Wee and she's like we've got 500,000 on our community platform helping to build. IT, OT, IoT, all the network, all the security pieces so Cisco is not new to a lot of these, but is refocused on a lot of what they're doing. >> So the big news obviously is the ACI Anywhere and HyperFlex Anywhere and putting the data center, connecting those two worlds. You got the cloud as well. So the role of hyper-convergence is certainly key in this announcement here today. ACI Application centric-structured infrastructure is codewords for policy-based, intent-based networking, all stuff that Cisco's used to doing. Then when you connect it to the cloud, you've got Data Center, On-Premises, Cloud and Hyper-Convergence at the edge. This is the core, right? They've got the edge, multiple environments. You've got Cloud and you've got the Data Center kind of legacy environment which is evolving. Those are all coming together. Stu, what is, this is a cross-domain challenge. Is Cisco prepared? David, I'd love to get your comments on this as well, to be that domain vendor? Because multicloud truly will require data to be moving around, for policy to be automated and deployed across domains. This is a huge challenge. Yeah I mean John, it is challenging and if you look at the hyper-convergence infrastructure space, where Cisco plays with HyperFlex, goes up against VMware vSAN and Nutanix and the rest there, the people that sell that and build that aren't necessarily the ones that really understand multicloud and we've seen that space maturing for the last couple of years. Obviously Cisco's got a right to be at the table there and they're moving in that direction, but the data center folks and they are data center folks that have done networking and storage and all that piece, are they getting trained up and helping to help bridge to that multicloud environment? I think there's still a lot of work to go when I talk to the channel, when I talk to the people that are out there going to market on that. >> Well that's the big challenge is how do you move the base, how do you get them from point A to point B without spending a billion dollars. You heard Gordon today stand up there and say you got to change. Now, and he admitted it. Anytime anybody tells me I have to change, I kind of get defensive about it, but some of the things that I, I mean obviously this end-to-end architecture, they're in a position in theory anyway to do that. They, what choice do they have? A couple of things that struck me is they've got a new consumption model, the SAAS-based consumption model. They also have four validated designs for OT, for IoT apps which that's good to see some actual meat on that bone. They got like utility substations and mining operations and fleet management. I mean it's stuff that you wouldn't traditionally think about coming from a data center company. So they're making some moves that I think are substantive and necessary. >> Well I took some notes here. I wanted to get your commentary on this, guys 'cause to me this is the core news here is that Cisco is truly trying to put that end to end architecture from across domains. You're seeing their core data center business continue to be robust. That's their bread and butter. You've got the edge that's developing nicely with IoT and Enterprise Edge and other places around campus and then you've got multiclass so you've got the three-legged stool. Core data center, multicloud and Edge. Does this address the industry's demand for apps changing, workloads being distributed and then management across these multiple domains or a multicloud because you've got to manage this stuff. So cost to ownership, these are now the table stakes. Your thoughts on those three areas too. Core data center, multicloud and edge. >> Yeah I mean we've been talking about for the last year, the move from hardware to software is not an easy one. There are things that you need to change for their product. They need to change how their field handles it, compensation and how they support their channel is super challenging. At VMWorld last year, we really highlighted how that intercloud networking, what a critical piece it was. I was so excited that the original vision of what Nicira had for pre-acquisitions was starting to come out there because VMWare's coming after Cisco in that manner. Cisco, not like they're trying to create hypervisors. They're going to live in all those worlds, but there definitely is some conflict there and something I always look at, Cisco's got a giant ecosystem. They have hundreds of thousands of certified Cisco engineers and they've got a great ecosystem here. >> Very strong channel. >> Everybody in a strong channel, right. They go to market partners as well as the technology partners and they're still strong. We're going to have on this week a lot of those players here, but that change is something that is tough to go through and it's this journey that they're on. >> Well this, Dave brought up consumption. I want to dig into the consumption piece because how people consume the cloud obviously means they got to stand up to cloud too, multicloud. Cisco's clearly got Azure AWS and Google Cloud. Google seems to be a strategic partner as well as Amazon Azure but I think Google kind of feels like there's more strategic alliances there. I'm just speculating from my opinion, but if I'm a Cisco customer, it's pretty easy now to go multicloud. I don't need to do a lot differently. The question is how do I manage it, what's the cost, how do I consume it? This is going to be critical. Your thoughts. >> Well Cisco's claiming they're going to abstract that complexity and whatever APIs and software infrastructure or infrastructure of a service that they're using, they're going to make that, simplify that and allow you to have a single management console. So as I said before, they're coming at it from a networking perspective. Vmware is coming at it from the traditional hypervisor and trying to elbow its way into the networking and storage space and then as I said, you've got other companies like IBM and Red Hat now coming at it from the application space and Kubernetes is obviously an important role there. I think personally the networking is a right place, a good place to come from. The problem for customers is still going to be complexity 'cause the cloud providers are going to have their own management framework. Obviously vSphere is a big player here. Now you got Cisco at all and then a bunch of startups saying hey ours is even better. >> Well the IBM Red Hat combination. >> Right and so I don't foresee a day where you're going to have one single painted glass. We never had in this industry. It's always been Nirvana and so then it comes down to Cisco getting its fair share. I think Cisco's in a very good position to get its fair share for the reasons that Stu just mentioned. >> Stu, so I want to get your thoughts. We're in the DevNet Zone. That's where theCUBE is. It's our second year at Cisco Live! We'll be at the American show again this year. It's on the schedule, but the role of the developer, the role of infrastructure as code now is in place actually happening within Cisco's customer base. So if you're a Cisco customer, you're looking at this saying okay, I've been running the Cisco network services. What is the role of the network engineer? Is there a renaissance coming? We said this last year. I kind of see it happening here. The network is now the computer. The network is the data. This is a great opportunity for Cisco. Your thoughts on the culture of the Cisco customer base and that vibe of infrastructure's code. >> Yeah so John, I used to bristle a little bit when you said well we're going to turn all the network engineers and they're going to become coders and I said well I know a lot of network engineers and some of them love and thrive that, but a lot of them, they're in the CLI, they're doing their thing. If you go and walk around this DevNet zone, a lot of stuff that's happening isn't networking. They are builders. This reminds me of going into AWS ReInvent and talking about people here the tools and the skills that you need to have to be a builder and absolutely networking is a part of it, that managing orchestration security, all things that touch into the network, but it's not oh how do I manage my network switch better, which is kind of the hardware focused view and maybe code this, but it really is how am I building APIs, how am I leveraging things? I've got IO key demos out there and networking is in there, but it's not necessarily the thing and so therefore you got the wave of developers and builders and John, we know that's the future. You need to be a builder. How can you create faster? Things like server list or moving in that direction where I don't need, it's less about the coding, it's more about my application, my data and my building. >> You bring up a great point, Stu, and this is something that I always point to when I look at who's kind of bsing the marketplace in terms of speeds and fees and announcements. When you see people actually coding and being enabled to create value, you start to see that's a good signal and here in the DevNet Zone, I saw four or five demos that were writing software and apps taking advantage of the hardware, taking advantage of the network. So now the network is enabling through APIs to extend the data. This is kind of changing the concept of how packages are moved around the networks. So this is truly a tell sign in my opinion of the modern infrastructure. The question is, Dave, how fast will the customers migrate to being true devops or infrastructure as code customers writing apps, building new things, create that value? >> Well I would say this. Of all the sort of traditional large-scale, call them whatever, legacy enterprise data center companies, I think Cisco's the only one that I can really point to that has kind of got developers right. IBM, Blue Mix, StartStop, remember the EMC code initiative that was kind of a joke? And so Oracle owns Java and it still sort of struggles with developers so I think Cisco got it right and I think the reason they got it right is because they're focused. That's what I do like about Cisco's strategy and the reason why you obviously give them a high chance is because they're really focused on that networking piece. They're not trying to be all things to all people even though you can forecast that they're sort of headed in that direction, but they're starting from a position of strength. >> You made a good point. The success or failure of developer programs is about creating an environment where it's compatible with how their expectations are. Microservices containers, these abstraction layers that they're used to dealing with create value. Developers love that. The other thing I would say is that developers look at what they can do, the world's changed. It used to be that the network used to dictate what can happen to applications. Now applications need to program the network. I think this was a shift we saw with DevNet Create and DevNet two years ago where they started moving from the command line interface to more of a software abstractions or application interfaces where they say hey let's just do more with the network. So applications now require programmability. This is the shift, it's upside down from what it was when the industry started. So this new bridge has to be application-centric and to me that's what I get out of the cloud announcement around multicloud. You're starting to see the portfolio up and down their stack. From security they got stealthwatch tetration, that's SAAS, analytics, app dynamics among other things. Data Center, HyperFlex, UCS Nexus all lined up. Cloud-centric container platforms on multiple clouds, IoT nedic, V Edge, Meraki, cloud services router. This is now a portfolio. They've got the products, Stu. >> Absolutely, John. >> Okay guys we're going to have a great day. Three days of wall-to-wall coverage. We're kicking it off here in Barcelona. Stay with us for more coverage here at Cisco Live! This is theCUBE. We'll be right back. (energetic music)

>> Narrator: Live From Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud-native computing foundation and antiquo system partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone it's live coverage here at theCUBE at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon here at Seattle for 2018 event. 8,000 people, up from 4,000 last year. I'm John Furrier with Stuart Miniman, my cohost. Next guest Daniel Berg, distinguished engineer at IBM Cloud Kubernetes Service. Daniel, great to have you on. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. Good to see you. I'll say you guys know a lot about Kubernetes. You've been using it for a while. >> Yes very much. >> Blue mix, you guys did a lot of cloud, a lot of open source. What's going on with the service? Take a minute to explain your role, what you guys are doing, how it all fits into the big picture here. >> Yeah yeah yeah so I'm the distinguished engineer over top of the architecture and everything around the Kubernetes Service. I'm backed by a crazy wicked awesome team. Right? They are amazing. They're the real wizards behind the curtain right? I'm the curtain is basically all it is. But we've done a phenomenal amount of work on IKS. We've delivered it. We've delivered some amazing HA capabilities, highly reliable but what's really great about it is the service that we provide to all of our customers? We're actually running all of IBM cloud on it, so all of our services, the Watson service, the cloud dataset base services, our keepertech service, identity management, billing, all of it, it's all running. First of all it's moving to containers and Kubernetes and it's running on our managed service. >> So just to make sure I get it all out there, I know we talked to a lot of other folks at IBM. I want to make sure we table it. You guys are highly contributing to the upstream. >> Daniel: Yes. >> As well as running your workload and other customers' workloads on Kubernetes within the IBM cloud. >> Unmodified right? I mean we're taking upstream and we're packed in and the key thing that we're doing is we're providing it as a managed service with our extensions into it. But yeah we're running, we've hit problems over the last 18, 20 months right? There's lots of problems. >> Take us into people always wonder what happens when this reaches real scale. So what experiences, what can you share with us? >> So when you really start hitting like real scale, real scale being like 500, 1,000, couple thousand nodes, right, then you're hitting real scale there. And we're dealing with tens of thousands of clusters, right? You start hitting different pressure points inside of Kubernetes, things that most customers are not going to hit and they're gnarly problems, right? They're really complicated problems. One of the most recent ones that we hit is just scaling problems with CRDs. Now that we've been promoting heavily CRDs, customized Kubernetes, which is a good thing. Well, it starts to hit another pressure point that you then have to start working through scaling of Kubernetes, scaling of the master, dealing with scheduling problems. Once you start getting into these larger numbers that's when you start hitting these pressure points and yes we are making changes and then we're contributing those back up to the upstream. >> One of the things we've been hearing in the interviews here and obviously in the coverage is that the maturation of Kubernetes, great, check, you guys are pushing these pressure points, which is great cause you're actually using it. What are the key visibility points that you're seeing where value's being created, and two what're some of the key learnings that you guys have had? I mean, so you're starting to see some visibility around where people can have value in the stack. Well, or not stack, but in the open source and create value and then learnings that you guys have had. >> Right, right, right. I mean for us the key value here is first of all providing a certified Kubernetes platform, right? I mean, Kubernetes has matured. It has gotten better. It's very mature. You can run production workloads on it no doubt. We've got many many examples of it so providing a certified managed solution around that where customers can focus on their application and not so much the platform, highly valuable right? Because it's certified, they can code to Kubernetes. We always push our teams both internal and external focus on Kubernetes, focus on building a Kube native experience cause that's going to give you the best portability ability moving whether you're using IBM cloud or another cloud provider right? It's a fully certified platform for that. >> Dan, you know, it's one thing if you're building on that platform but what experience do you have of taking big applications and moving it on there? I remember a year or two ago it seemed like it was sexy to talk about lift and shift and most people understand it's like really you just can't take what you had and take advantage of it. You need to be, it might be part of the journey but I'm sure you've got a lot of experiences there. >> Yeah we've got, I mean, we've seen almost every type of workload now cause a lot of people were asking Well, what kind of workloads can you containerize? Can you move to Kubernetes? Based on what we've seen pretty much all of them can move so and we do see a lot of the whole lifT and shift and just put it on Kubernetes but they really don't get the value and we've seen some really crazy uses of Kubernetes where they're on Kubernetes but they're not really, like what I say Kube native. They're not adhering to the Kubernetes principles and practices and therefore they don't get the full value so they're on Kubernetes and they get some of the okay we're doing some health checking but they don't have the proper probes right? They don't have the proper scheduling hints. They don't have the proper quotas. They don't have the proper limits. So they're not properly using Kubernetes so therefore they don't get the full advantage out of it. So what we're seeing a lot though is that customers do that lift and shift, but ultimately they have to, they have to rewrite a lot of what they're doing. To get the most value, and this is true of cloud and cloud native, ultimately at the end of the day if you truly want to get the value of cloud and cloud native you're going to do a rewrite eventually and that will be full cloud native. You're going to take advantage of the APIs and you're going to follow the best practices and the concepts of the platform. >> Containers give you some luxury to play with workloads that you don't maybe have time to migrate over but this brings up the point of the question that we hear a lot and I want to get your thoughts on this because the world's getting educated very fast on cloud native and rearchitecting, replatforming, whatever word you want to use, reimagining their infrastructure. How do you see multicloud driving the investment or architectural thinking with customers? What're they, what're some of the things that you see that are important for 2019 as people are saying you know what? My IT is transforming, we know that, we're going to be a multicloud world. I've got to make investments. >> You definitely have to make those. >> What are those investments architecturally, how should they lay those out? What're your thoughts? >> So my thought there is ultimately, you've got focus on a standardized platform that you're going to use across those because multicloud it's here. It's here to stay whether it's just on premises and you're doing off premises or you're doing on premises and multiple cloud vendors and that's where everybody's going and it's going to be give it another six, 12 months. That's going to be the practice. That's going to be what everybody does. You're not one cloud provider, you're multiple. So standardization, community, massive. Do you have a community around that? You can't vendor lock in if you're going to be doing portability across all of these cloud providers. Standardization governance around the platform the certification so Kubernetes you have a certified process that you certify every version so you at least know I'm using a vendor that's certified. Right? I have some promise that my application's going to run on that. Now is that as simple as well I picked a certified Kubernetes and therefore I should be able to run my application. Not so simple. >> And operationally, they're running CICD, you got to run that over the top. >> You've got to have a common, yeah, You've got to have a common observability model across all of that, what you're logging, what're you're monitoring, what's your CICD process. You've got to have a common CICD process that's going to go across all of those cloud providers, right, all of your cloud environments. >> Dan, take us inside. How're we doing with security? It's one of those sort of choke points. Go back to containers when they first started through to Kubernetes. Are we doing well on security now and where do we need to go? >> Are we doing well on it? Yes we are. I think we're doing extremely well on security. Do we have room for improvement? Absolutely everybody does. I've just spent the last eight months doing compliance and compliance work. That's not necessarily security but it dips into it quite often right? Security is a central focus. Anybody doing public cloud, especially providers, we're highly focused on security and you've got to secure your platforms. I think with Kubernetes and providing first of all proper isolation and customers need to understand what levels of isolation am I getting? What levels of sharing am I getting? Are those well documented and I understand what my providers providing me. But the community's improving. Things that we're seeing around like Kubernetes and what they're doing with secrets and proper encryption, encryption, notary with the image repositories and everything. All that plays into providing a more secure platform so we're getting there, things are getting better. >> Well there was a recent vulnerability that just got patched rather fast. >> Daniel: There was. >> It seemed like it moved really quick. What do we learn from that? >> Well we've learned that Kubernetes itself is not perfect, right? Actually I would be a little bit concerned if we didn't find a security hole because then that means there's not enough adoption, where we just haven't found the problems. Yes we found a security hole. The thing is the community addressed it, communicated it, and all of the vendors provided a patch very quickly and many of them like with IKS we rolled out the patch to all of our clusters, all of our customers, they didn't have to do anything and I believe Google did the same thing so these are things that the community is improving, we're maturing and we're handling those security problems. >> Dan, talk about the flexibility that Kubernetes provides. Certainly you mentioned earlier the value that can be extracted if you do it properly. Some people like to roll their own Kubernetes or they want the managed service because it streamlines things a bit faster. When do I want management? When do I want to roll my own? Is there kind of a feel? Is it more of a staffing thing? Is it more scale? Is it more application, like financial services might want to roll their own? We're starting to maybe see a different industry. What's your take on this? >> Well obviously I'm going to be super biased on this. But my belief there is that I mean obviously if you're going to be doing on premises and you need a lot of flexibility. You need flexibility of the kernel you may need to roll your own right? Because at that point you can control and drive a lot of the flexibility in there, understanding that you take on the responsibility of deploying and managing and updating your platform, which means generally that's an investment you're going to make that takes away from your critical investment of your developers on your business so personally I would say first and foremost... >> It's a big investment. >> It's a massive investment. I mean look at what the vendor, look at IKS. I've got a large team. They live and breathe Kubernetes. Live and breathe every single release, test it, validate it, roll updates. We're experts at updating Kubernetes without any down time. That's a massive investment. Let the experts do it. Focus on your business. >> John: And that's where the manage piece shines. >> That's where the mange piece absolutely shines. >> Okay so the question about automation comes up. I want to get your thoughts on the future state of Kubernetes because you know we go down the cloud native devops model. We want to automate away things. >> Daniel: Yes. >> Kubernetes is that some differentiation but I don't want to manage clusters. I don't want to manage it. I want it automated. >> Daniel: Yeah. >> So is it automating faster? Is it going to be automated? What's your take on the automation component? When and where and how? >> Well, I mean through the manage services I mean it's cloud native. It's all API driven, CLIs. You've got one command and you're scaling up a cluster. You get a cluster with one command, you can go across multiple zones with one command. Your cluster needs to be updated you call one command and you go home. >> John: That sounds automated to me. >> I mean that's fully and that's the only way that we can scale that. We're talking about thousands of updates on a daily basis. We're talking about tens of thousands of clusters fully automated. >> A lot of people have been talking the past couple of weeks around this notion of well all containers might have security boundary issues. Let's put a VM around it maybe stay for is it maybe just more of a fix? Cause why do I want to have a VM or is it better to just keep native core? Is that real conversation or is that fud? >> I mean it is a real conversation because people are starting to understand what are the proper isolation levels with my cluster. My personal belief around that is you really only need that level of isolation, those mini VMs, around your containers. Running a single container in a single VM seems overkill to me. However if you're running a multitenant cluster with untrusted content you better be taking extra precautions. First and foremost I would say don't do it because you're adding risk, right? But if you're going to do it yes, you might start looking at those types but if you're running a cluster in its an isolated cluster with full isolation levels all the way down to the hardware in a trusted environment, trust being it's your organization, it's your code. I think it's overkill then. >> Future of Kubernetes what happens next? People are hot on this. You've got service meshes, a lot of other goodness. People are really trying to stay with the pace, a lot of change and again a lot of education. But it's not a stack like I hear words like Kubernetes stack and the CNCM has a stack. So it's not necessarily a stack per se. >> Right it's not. >> Clarify the linguistic language around what we're talking about here. What's a stack? What's not a stack? It's all services. >> Look at it this way. So Kubernetes has done a phenomenal job as a project in the community to state exactly what it's trying to achieve, right? It is a platform. It is platform for running cloud native applications. That is what it is and it allows vendors to build on top of it. It allows customers to build on it and it's not trying to grow larger than that. It's just trying to improve overall that platform and that's what's fantastic about Kubernetes because that allows us and when you see the stack it's really cloud native. What pieces am I going to add to that awesome platform to make my life even better? Knative, Istio, a service measure. I'm going to put that on because I'm evolving, I'm doing more microservices. I'm going to build that on top of it. Inside of IBM we did cloud foundry enterprise environment, CFEE, cloud foundry on Kubernetes. Why not, right? It's a perfect combination. It's just going up the level and it's providing more usability, better different prescriptive uses of Kubernetes but Kubernetes is the platform. >> When I think about the composability of services it's not a stack. It's lego blocks. >> Daniel: Yeah it's pieces. I'm using different pieces here, there, everywhere. >> All right well Daniel thanks for coming on, sharing great insight. Congratulations on your success running major workloads within IBM for you guys and the customers. Again just the beginning, Kubernetes the beginning. Congratulations. Here inside the Cube we're breaking down all the action. Three days of live coverage. We're at day one at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2018, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to theCUBE, we are live at the inaugural IBM Think 2018. I'm Lisa Martin joined by John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Guys this is first day of three days of coverage from theCUBE but this is a combination of six different IBM events from the past. Tell me a little bit about your perspective about what you think that means or they're projecting to have about 40,000 plus people here. Big change. >> Yeah, I mean, this is, we've been covering IBM how many years? Was since 2011 we've been to? Pretty much every single event they've had. They had IOD, information on demand on and on and on but really. >> Impact, pulse edge. >> All coming together. I mean this is IBM looking at the market saying, it's better to run a big tent event as a kind of coming together, a global celebration global information gathering a global sales partnership ecosystem development, and I think it's finally IBM's taking a play out of what others have done. Sales Force does it, Oracle's done it, Amazon does it with reinvent, they pull all their resources into one event. Now here's the problem, IBM is massively huge so, you know the cube goes to all those events now it's 5x the demand for cube content, 5x the demand for keynotes so, they're here at the Mandalay Bay, they're probably going to have to, need to a bigger job next year. But it's a good move for IBM and I love the fake logo, I love the Think branding. That's a throwback to the old Tom Watson generation which the roots of IBM were all about, just think, solve problems and really market the best solutions to customers. To me, if they can bring back those old IBM ethos and the roots and really get back into the cloud game which they've been falling behind on but their last earnings were up Dave. So they've had a nice little break of the negative streak, but AI is a tailwind for them, IOT is a tailwind, blockchain is potentially an enabler down the road, I mean Dave your thoughts on just that the business aspect of that. >> Well, so first on Think they have consolidated six shows they used to have really deep dives into things like infrastructure or analytics, et cetera. Now, they've said okay, let's make the big ched, as John was saying. What's interesting is every one of those drill down events Lisa you had big themes whether it was cognitive or cloud or digital transformation so, I think it's a smart move. Michele Paluso, Bob Lord came in, said, hey, we're going to change things up a little bit and we're going to play in the big leagues with, as John said, Sales Force, et cetera. You're right John, IBM sort of finally after Jenny Rimetti came on in 2012 and had some number of the trade press reports and number of quarters of revenue declining. >> It was double digit like 17 consecutive quarters. >> But remember IBM we've said it for years IBM's got to shrink to grow and in the growth they eat down one percent growth in constant currency. Currency is finally now a tailwind for IBM. It's a $79 billion company, a lot smaller, remember, IBM used to be well over a $100 billion company. And its got a $140, a $150 billion market cap. So it's trading at about 2x, almost 2x revenue and it's because IBM has an eclectic mix they've got mainframe, they've got other hardware. They got rid of their x86 business which was a low margin business. They've got services, which is a great business for them, huge cash flow. You get a $120 billion services backlog right now. So amazing potential future earnings but service is a lower margin business. IBM has this huge software business, you know 10s of billions of dollars in software which is a very high margin business. So put it all together and IBM's trying to get back to a 50% gross margin model. They're throwing off a lot of cash. They threw off $13 billion in free cash flow last year. Interestingly, about 80% of that went back to shareholders in the form of share purchase and the like. And that's how IBM, sort of, kept the stock price up and continues, and now we'll see what happens next year they're being very conservative about growth, so tepid growth. Huge advantage from the tax reform. IBM is one of these companies that is going to benefit in a big way from tax reform, gives it a lot of flexibility. >> And I would also, if I was advising IBM, I'm not, but if I was advising Michele Paluso I'd basically, look at, you're too big to have one big show. I would do one big business show, like Think, then also have a separate event on technical. Because one of the things we look at their schedule here it's business and AI, cloud and data, modern infrastructure, security and resilience. That alone could stack the deck for three, four days of business conversations business transformation, digital transformation, future transformation with blockchain among other things, power of the data and IOT. That's a full packed set of content. IBM's got a huge R&D organization Dave, they have a huge services organization and technology's the enabler for them to get those margins up and I think they should have a separate technical Think. Now. we're going to ask them directly with try to get Michele Paluso on but. >> I want to make some comments about the Jenny Rametti tenure because I first met her around 2007, 2008, when she was running strategy actually. She had run a large business for Palmasano so this is a while before she took over in 2012. And she was running strategy and then she came on in 2012. At that time IBM had no cloud really clear cloud strategy. They were talking cloud but they didn't have any cloud, public cloud options so they had to go out and pay two billion dollars for software. And then they put in Blue Mix, John you're hearing some changes on Blue Mix so we're going to talk about that. But she's had to architect a massive transition. But when you look at IBM's core business cloud is really one of the new drivers. So, $17 billion business. But the drivers' profitability are mainframe, storage, services, a lot of the same without a large cloud business which they've taken a lot of different components and pushed it through the cloud and done with Blue Mix what they did with Websphere, their middleware piece. Kind of what Oracle tried to do and has done with Fusion but a different strategy. All done sort of in the cloud. Now, the big question is okay is that going to drive growth for IBM in the next 10 years? The other big question is, what about Watson? You hear a lot about Watson. They don't really clearly breakout, okay this is how much business we do with Watson and Wall Street has been clamoring to see that, so. >> Well I mean to me cloud is the big story I think their opportunity is data. That's where Watson kind of ties in. They have a huge client base, the digital transformation style, I think they're going to do really well there. But the at the end of the day the cloud story has always been weak for IBM in the sense of, comparing it to what Amazon web services has been doing. So you know I really want to see how they're differentiating their cloud story because they have to. They cannot compete with Amazon head to head. Google's differentiating, Microsoft's differentiating. IBM needs to be in the same league as Microsoft and Amazon. They got to beat Google out for that third spot. To me if I was marching giving marching orders as a theme, said, we got to be in the top three cloud providers, and define it in a way that adds values to customers, and they're not in that top three today. That is a huge story. That's going to keep dragging them down on the Wall Street numbers, in my opinion, unless they do something different. >> Well, I got to counter that because the big difference between IBM cloud and Amazon cloud is IBM's got a giant software portfolio. IBM's as a service software portfolio's many 10s of billions of dollars. So they have a ratable revenue model and a very, very, software's, 85%, zero marginal cost business. Amazon doesn't have that yet and they may they're going up the stack. But that's huge. The other piece to watch is IBM calls strategic imperatives, which is cloud and security and IOT and the new stuff basically which is now just under 50% of the revenue model. But that's where companies like IBM and Oracle differentiate from Amazon is they have the deep software. Now the challenge for IBM is their software is very bespoke. Their software business is very, very fragmented. They've been trying to bring it together through middleware for what, John, four or five years? When did they announce Blue Mix? We were there. >> It seems like five years ago, I mean yeah, maybe even six. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Blue Mix was a great approach I think soft layer might have been, to me at least, the one I think the thing that held Blue Mix back. Just soft layer, to me, just it's just infrastructure didn't really kind of make it blend in the Blue Mix the way I thought it would and hoped it would. We'll see what they say this week. >> Yeah but that was the right move. The two billion dollar acquisition of soft layer, had they not done that, they would be like Dell EMC, no cloud. They'd be Dell EMC with a huge software business on prim software business. >> Well Dave the market share numbers on cloud, I mean shows, IBM not making it so like, to me, that story has to be >> I disagree with that I disagree. So you got the big three, right? And then you got Oracle and IBM. There sort of a distant, I don't know what order I guess IBM would be a little ahead of Oracle but you got one, two, three and then distant four and five, excluding Alibaba and the China cloud which is huge. But IBM is-- >> In China, not the U.S. though. >> In China, but IBM's strategy to me is the right one. Drive software revenue as, Oracle as well because that's the ace in the hole relative to the infrastructure clouds. They don't want to compete head to head in infrastructures and service. That would be a disaster. >> I mean look at, I'm tracking the cloud heavily you know that so, I look at IBM a little bit differently than you. My view is simple. In the cloud game right now they're not making it. However, we know that everyone's defining cloud differently. I mean Microsoft throws Azure in there the software included. Amazon doesn't. Oracle does so again that's just-- >> Dave: It's a $17 billion business. >> Hold on, hold on that's just mangling the numbers. >> And granted they may be >> So, so they. puts some hosting in there. >> They have to have to have it's not about the cloud story it's about the cloud value. IBM has a lot of piece parts that they can actually put together for a cloud package. Infrastructure instead of software services. Blue Mix tried to do that. So I think, they, if they can look at cloud in a way that's helps IBM, that gives them a way to move the goal post the way to change the game to me that's what I'm looking for. Because IBM should not be out of the cloud business. If they don't go down-- >> But they're not out of the cloud business, it's a $17 billion cloud business, how can you say they're out of the cloud business? That's an insane >> I'm not saying that they're. insertion to make. >> I'm not saying they're out of the cloud business but look what happened to VM ware, they were in the cloud business and-- >> Yeah but VM ware was BS, we all know that. They had fake cloud, at least IBM's got a real cloud built upon softlayer and yes they transformed a hosting business in bare metal cloud into what is ultimately come the IBM cloud where they're now rebranding. It takes a long time. This is kind of the point I was making about about Jenny earlier. There's it's a little messy. Seeing that sausage made. But at least they have strategy around that. They're in the cloud game. Dell EMC isn't in the cloud game. HPE isn't in the cloud game. I'm talking public cloud. These were companies that both VM ware all three of those companies announced they were going into the cloud, they're out. At least IBM, Oracle, obviously the big three are in it. That's my contention. >> So let's talk it. Do you disagree? >> No, of course they're in the cloud game. They're tracking the market share numbers but again they're not winning in the cloud Dave, okay? So like in relative to other players. >> Dave: Alright so let's define winning. >> Well, I mean >> Define winning. it depends on how you look at the marketplace. So, right now, by quote, today's standard, there are the top three are Amazon, Microsoft some say Google, Oracle and IBM would be below that. That's defined by a bunch of stuff so IBM counts it I mean Microsoft counts it differently than Amazon. I look at cloud as simply this. How many sets of services do you have? And how many people are using those services? So it's kind of two dimensions of access there. Plus the breadth of services and how many people are using those breadth of services so it's kind of like a quadrant not a magic quadrant but like Amazon blows away everybody okay so that's like, they're so far ahead. IBM, if they try to compete that way, my point was that I was trying to make was if you compete on trying to match Amazon you're not going to win. Google's already tapped out of the cloud by that standard. They're going in all in on cloud scale, sensor flow, AI targeting the developer community. They're not out of the cloud game. They're taking a different path. That's not their cloud story. That's their cloud plan. They're executing it. Oracle, it's just, everything's cloud. They'll count anything that moves is cloud right? So that's Oracle. Microsoft throws 365 in there to bump their numbers up but what do they have? Azure and it's doing well by quote Wall Street. But some people criticize the technology with Microsoft. So, it's kind of a rat race. It's fundamentally at the infrastructure it's the number of services and who's using those services and then above say the Kubernetes line if you will, it's what applications are driving value. So if you separate applications from under the Kubernetes line orchestration, then you got two different pictures. You can't blend them in. That's my contention that the blending of apps revenue and infrastructure revenue really makes it a real messy way to squint through who's winning. >> So let's define leadership, although that was good, good analysis. I'll give you, I'll add some color to that. To me you've got to be in the cloud game because in order to succeed in the digital economy you got to have cloud economics. You got to have you got to have the ability to to do analytics and data you got to have AI and you got to have cloud economics. What does that mean? You got to have, you know, an API platform. You got to have zero marginal costs. You got to have network effects is scaled and you got to be able to track startups. Okay, so those are the sort of components that I look at as a cloud momentum. The question I have for IBM is if the strategic imperatives are now almost 50% of the business and their higher margin and you're achieving those cloud economics why are gross margins under pressure? Right? They should be showing gross margin momentum and that's something to look at. >> Well, I mean-- >> Alright guys. >> Because cloud should drive huge gross margins. >> Hold on I got to add one more point because this fundamentally frames it. If you look at cloud and what DevOps has done where you can actually have programmable infrastructure that's changed the game. Would you think DevOps has changed the game? >> Changing? >> Yeah, changing. Yeah, sure. >> The notion of programming It certainly has for the cloud native guys, absolutely. >> So the ability to program the infrastructure takes away the infrastructure being the dependency of what applications can do. >> Dave: Agreed. >> Okay, okay, great. So now that the infrastructure's programmable the apps kind of are running the show. The successful people that are using the cloud today are the ones that nailed the business model logic. So that's what the application does it's due diligence. Whoever can come up with the applications and nail the business model that's where the switching costs are extremely high that's where the risk is. The risk is no longer in the plumbing because the plumbing, switching costs of the plumbing are a lot lower because there's a lot more technology and sets the services you can provision in and out of that so you're starting to see the entire strategy chain where it's the applications that'll be driving the value and that's where the mistakes if made there that's where the cloud game ends. >> And machine intelligence is going to drive that value and that's where Watson versus you know the consumer guys and IBM Jenny, I guarantee tomorrow will make the point that we're not trying to collect your data and sell you ads. You will make that point. >> Whoever. >> I guess unless you go to the weather company's website. >> Whoever can build the application, it builds value. The business logic is now the new devops because everything else is programmable. That's my contention. >> Dave: Alright. >> Alright guys wow. As you can tell lots of passion for all things cloud, AI and now you're going to hear all of it today on theCUBE. This is day one of three days of coverage as John mentioned. We've so many great guests on over the next few days and hopefully a few more with our pop-up CUBE. Keep watching, I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier and Dave Vallante. We're going to be back with our first guest after a short break. (funky digital music)

(upbeat electronic. music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2017 brought to you by VMware and it's Ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman here with Keith Townsend and you're watching theCUBE's broadcast of VMworld 2017. One of our guests earlier this week called this set the punk rock set and one of my guests here in a preview said that this is going to be the battle of the baldies (laughter) so I'm really happy to bring two leaders of two of the hottest topics being discussed this week, welcoming back to the program Dom Delfino of course representing NSX and Security at NSBU and Lee Caswell from the vSAN Team. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Stu, how are you, buddy? >> I'm doing phenomenal. Dom, are you making network great again, yet? >> It's fantastic again now. We're making network fantastic again. >> Yeah and I expected you to show up a little more bling because we were talking Silicon Valley. Your group is reaching the three commas of a billion dollars. >> Dom: That's right. >> So let's start there, NSE when it was bought a few years back, over a million dollars. SDN was something that we all in the networking world was talking about and things have changed. I don't hear SDN talked at this show, it's real customers, real deployments, pretty good scale. The interconnected fabric if you will for VM's cloud strategy. >> Yep, absolutely. So Stu, these major transformational shifts in the industry take time, right? You know, you're not going to undo what you've done for the last 25, 30 years in a month or a quarter or a year and I think what you saw initially was adoption of NSX or automation of network provisioning. Then what you saw second to that was microsegmentation as a defense in depth strategy for our customers and now you see the multi data center moving into the hybrid cloud. vRNI is a service, NSX is a service, App Defense, layering additional security capabilities on top of that and as our production customers sort of adopted it in the beachhead methodology operationalized it, you see additional follow on adoptions. We've got one customer running 18 data centers on NSX today so this is becoming more and more mainstream and as you look at our approach moving forward in terms of where we are and the software defines us in our journey, how that connects to our strategy for VMC on AWS or VMC on Blue Mix. You saw Agredo Apenzeller yesterday demonstrate crossed into Microsoft Azure. When was the last time you thought you'd see that at VMworld, huh? >> Hey Lee, I got to bring you in here. (laughter) It's funny, I've lived in the storage world. >> I thought this was a storage show. >> And now we're tech people throwing all these acronyms. >> I know, they're so excited. >> And you know because come on, NSX is not simple. Who's the one that's saving customers money so that they can buy all of these? >> NSX is a great value, but vSAN pays for the ride, right? >> Here we go, right? >> They do. We'll happily accept it. >> I mean, we're consolidating storage in a way that basically brings back the magic of consolidation, right? The first time you consolidated, people called it magic because you consolidated servers, bought shared storage and had money left over, right? Now we're doing the same thing again, right, with now storage, right? What's interesting is is this is a huge career path gain for the virtualization administrator. >> Wow, so talking about being disruptive, vSAN. You know, I've got to rib you guys a little bit at the dodge ball tournament benefiting Unoria, the vSAN team lost to the Dell EMC team, so. >> Can you imagine? And did you see how valiant we were? >> Dom: You guys fall hard. >> You fall hard. (laughter) >> You looked like you could have used a little youth on that team, by the way, Lee. >> So a lot of competition, you walked the show floor. >> Lee: Yeah. >> This, we usually call this storage world. I think it's fair to say it's HCI world now. >> Lee: It's amazing, right? >> How is vSAN fitting into the larger ecosystem? >> You know, we announced, Pat said we have over 10,000 customers now, right? And yet VMware has hundreds of thousands of customers right? So we're just getting started here and what you're finding is the two assets to bring to this party are a hypervisor or a server. >> Keith: Right. >> Right, you don't have either one of those, it's going to be very difficult because if you go back and you'll appreciate this, right? You remember a Type 2 hypervisor? >> Yep, vaguely. I almost wrote about it, like wait, they don't even exist anymore, do they? >> Well, Workstation still, right? If you start thinking, right, that was a hypervisor on a guest, right? And so what happened though, as soon as these XI came out, right, integrated the compelling performance advantages, the resource utilization and then the idea that hey, I got a common management through vCenter, right? That's what's playing right now is users are trying to find leverage and scale, how do I do that and that's where we've just seen a massive adoption of ECM. >> Alright, one of the reasons we brought the two of you together though is because while peanut butter and chocolate are great on their own, the cloud foundation. >> Dom: I have the whole sandwich now, Stu. >> Yes, yes, so you know Cloud Foundation, NSX might be the interconnective fabric between all of them. Cloud Foundation is that solution, there's a whole business unit, put that together and drive that, so talk about how you feed that solution, how that changes the way you think about it. >> Probably the most interesting thing and I've only had the vSAN team for six months but I think the most interesting thing for me and vSAN is it scales downmarket very well as well, so we have massive enterprise customers, right, who have large global deployments of vSAN but you can take vSAN, put it on three nodes and see value out of that, right? And I think when you look at, you know, this is the year of cloud reality I'm calling it now, Stu, right? That's what's happened here this weekend at VMworld. When you look at that I think the most fundamental thing the customers are taking out of this week is my private cloud has to be as good as the public cloud offering, okay? Now if you're a Fortune 1,000 customer you certainly have a lot of resources, a lot of talent, a lot of expertise, a lot of history, and potentially a lot of budget to throw at that problem. But if you're a mid-market customer, right? And you look at I need to build a private cloud that's fast and easy, right? Which was the two primary reasons to adopt public cloud, you have a good place to start with Cloud Foundation and I think it's just the beginning so you get vSphere, you get NSX, you get vSAN, and you get SDDC Manager to do life cycle management, certainly you could layer vRealize on top of that for automation, orchestration, provisioning and self service as well and it really allows everybody to start to take advantage of the capabilities that only existed in the major cloud providers before on-prem and their own data center so I think as you look at Cloud Foundation and I'm working very closely with John Gilmartin on this, moving forward, it is going to become the basic foundational element, pun intended, right, for many of the VMware offerings moving forward as we turn into next year, that we'd look at this very closely and we have a lot of plans as that being the base to build off of in terms of how we help our customers get to this private cloud. >> Lee, I need to hear your perspective because some of this Cloud Foundation, there's got to be some differences when you talk about some of the deployment models whether where I'm doing it, how I'm doing it, VMC, the VMware managed cloud I guess on AWS, VMware on AWS something getting a lot of buzz. You know, everybody's digging into to it. What's it do today, what's it going to do in the future? >> Well, you know I thought it was really impressive when Andy Jassy got up and basically said, "We've been faced with a minor choice." Customers want these to be integrated, right? And the second day was Google, right? Talking about how we're taking developer tools, right, and making them common, so that element. Now storage people think that the strategic engagement with the cloud is about data, right? >> Stu: Right. >> Putting a VM in the cloud, I mean that's a credit card transaction, but once you put your first byte of data into the cloud, now you take on sovereignty issues, you think about performance and where you're going to get guaranteed ihovs out of it. You start thinking about how am I going to move that data? It's not fast or free or as anyone who has emailed a video knows, right, so you start thinking that it's the data elements and now what's really powerful and we saw some of this in the demos in general session. Once you have a common data structure, we call it dSAN, right, all the way from the edge into the data center of virtual private cloud then into the public cloud, now I've got the opportunity to have this really flexible fluid system, right? All virtualized, it's so powerful, right? About how I can manage that and we think, it'll be interesting, does the virtualization administrator then become the cloud administrator, right? >> So then, let's expand that one, vSAN everywhere. vSAN in the AWS, vSAN in vCAN, vSAN in my own data center. How do I protect that data? That seems just, is this where NSX comes in? How do I protect that data? >> Can we let Lee talk the security first? >> Where's the security, is the security in vSAN? >> Cause I know Dom >> We'll let Lee go first and then I'll correct him, okay? (laughter) >> Well, I mean you start with a security like encryption on the data, right? I mean one of the things why vSAN's so portable is because there is no hardware dependency. I mean, we're using like all, we support all different servers, there's no proprietary cards or anything, right, to stick in these servers so we can go run that software wherever. Now, we're also then as a result doing software encryption with our latest release on 6.6 software encryption allows us to use common key management partners, right, and so we use those partners including iTrust, Vales, FlowMetric, and others and now you can have key management regardless of where your data resides, so we start there but then what customers say really quickly, right, is if I start moving something, they say, "NSX help me out, right?" >> So I think Lee took to a very critical part of it, the ability to encrypt that data at rest and you know, as it transits, there's really three elements to this, it's the data itself, which we say that 6.6 introduced, right, the ability to encrypt that data, microsegmentation and upcoming DNE to both protect and encrypt that data while it's in flight and now if you look at that App Defense strategy, right, it's to secure that data while it's being processed as well at the host level up at the application layer, so I think Stu this just continues to be a huge challenge for our customers. Particularly with the breeches, we saw what happened with Wannacry, with Pedia, with non-Pedia, the different versions of that, Electric Blue and all. >> Stop, you know, your boss who's on theCUBE on the other set right now said, "As an industry, we have failed you." Pat Gelson gave the keynote, so when we're solving it, you know we're going to have like next year I expect both of you to have this all fixed. >> One of these, you asked like with all the HCI enthusiasts that are out there in many companies, you know, how do we differentiate? Well, part of it is this is not just a drop in a little box, right, someplace, right? This is how do you go and modernize your data center, basically tie into the complete software stack and regardless of the timing in which you're going to go and deploy that, right, if you're going to deploy the full stack today, that's a VMware cloud foundation, awesome, if you want to go start with vSAN, great, and then add in other pieces, or you can start with NSX. In any event, the common management is the piece that we really think is going to go and set us apart, right, as a part of it's an infrastructure play, not just a point component. >> So? >> Hold on I want to let Don finish. >> Stu, I think three years ago if we sat down here and told you you're going to encrypt your software defined storage, in software, no hardware requirements, I probably would have said I was nuts for saying that and you definitely would have said I was nuts for saying that so this is critical and we are hyper-focused on solving this problem and what customers have to recognize is that you have to make some foundational architectural changes in order to fix this problem and if you don't it's not going away, it's only going to get worse. >> So, I took a peep in at FUTURE:NET. First off, VMware does an awesome job of this conference within a conference. >> Isn't it fun? >> It is fun, a little bit over my head at times, which we have to be getting that same reaction from the CIOs that this stuff even when we're taking stuff that we know very well, Vmware or vSphere, starting with that, adding on vSAN, again the conversation, Dom, we can encrypt at both network and compute and storage? That's a little deep, but now we're talking about this crosscloud conversation that FUTURE:NET is most definitely addressing. How is that conversation going with customers? Are they finally starting to get their arms around the complexity of the situation? >> Absolutely Keith, because when you look at our multi-data center functions of NSX that we introduced back in NSX 6.2 at VMworld two years ago, three years ago, I'm getting long in the tooth here, so I can't remember times anymore. Those were the foundational elements for the components of crosscloud today so many customers who started the NSX journey with one use case and one data center and expanded it horizontally and then down through a number of use cases and then across to another data center are already taking advantage of those crosscloud functionalities from private data center to private data center. Now we've just taken them and extended them into Google Cloud, Azure, and AWS as well. So the customers who've been on this journey with us from the beginning have seen this step by step and it doesn't really seem like a big leap to them already. Now obviously if you haven't been on that journey it seems like you know, hey can you guys really do this and yeah, we've been doing it from private data center to private data center, now we're just bringing that capability to public data center and certainly the partnership with Amazon is a tremendous help to that as well. >> Yeah, when customers are buying into these solutions, and I know you like to look at it as a platform, so let's look out a little bit. I want you to talk a little bit about what we should expect from the future, if it makes edge computing kind of IoT is a big one, I have to expect that both of you have a play there, so? >> I guess I'll touch on that in two pieces so you sort of see us extending this up a little bit initially with PKS with pivotal container services, with Kubernetes on BOSH and the ability to do rolling upgrades and NSX is embedded in that solution, right, it's not a built-on offering, it's natively part of that for all the reasons that we talked about earlier and we see a lot of opportunities as it relates to edge computing, right, and I think this is something that, wasn't it file computing like seven years ago, Stu? >> Your former employer was one that was pushing that. >> Dom: Oh okay, yeah what happened to that? >> Yeah I have heard it come back from data center to cloud. >> I'm just needling you Stu, we didn't need to get into that. >> But you know, terminology does matter, but I hear your point. >> So I think A. IoT is the biggest security challenge that we face, right? >> Stu: Yep. >> That's number one. If you think it's bad now it's about to get a lot worse with the wholesale adoption of IoT. I think that when you look at the remote office, the branch office, what's going on with the transition with wide area networking right now, I think there's a tremendous opportunity there. Clearly we have a play where you can provide sort of a branch in a box with our technology but I think there's a lot of things you'll see coming from us in the near term as far as innovation that we can do there to really enhance edge computing as it relates to IoT and certainly our user computing platform with Horizon Air of the Legacy AirWatch venture, is an important part of securing those edge devices as well. >> Lee? >> On the vSAN side, this week we announced the HDI Acceleration Kit and that's basically a way to take advantage of single socket servers, right? And one of the things we're seeing for bandwidth reasons and economics you don't want to have everything centralized so the ability, particularly in an IoT environment, but also in retail or robo, if you've got hundreds of stores there's no way to put a sandbox and a fiber channel switch in separate storage and scale that, right? So what we're doing is we've got a very cost-effective license, right, incredible where you can get with hardware now, you can go and drop in a three node fully configured vSAN plus vSphere for under 25K. Drop it in, now you've got a virtualized environment, unlimited VMs, this sort of thing where we're helping basically bring the accelerating the adoption using HDI of enterprise modern infrastructure outside the data center. >> So last question around customer adoption and again, assessments of this model. The push, I think 816Z said that the edge is going to eat loud computing. Where do you guys see in the real world, the ground, is it a push towards the cloud or is it this combination of doing? >> In my experience, right and this is like an accordion, right, it goes in, it goes out it goes in, it goes out, why? Well it goes in and out based on economics and bandwidth. Right, so you start looking and saying, now until HDI came out, it just wasn't really feasible to put enterprise infrastructure at the edge, right? >> Keith: Right. >> So things were centralized, right? Well now, right, now we start distributing again, right? The cloud is an example of more centralized, right? But I think we're going to see both, right? And you're going to see this what's particularly interesting right now is right, the new advances in media, CPUS, low-latency networks makes it possible to use these I call it the serverization of storage, but really it's a serverization of the modern data center, right, and which by the way is common to how clouds are built. >> But does that mean the overall IT management or complex, as I build it out that control plane. >> I'll give you an example from this morning. I was meeting with one of the largest banks, right? And they were looking at HDI, they've used a lot of stance ORKS in the past and do you know what he asked at the end? "Could you give me the ORK charts of customers "in my scale who are using HDI?" >> Stu: Yeah. >> Because I want to go figure out how I hyper-converge my team. We'll never be fast until we go and get teams that are working more closely together where they start from the VM level and then they look at the network attributes and the storage attributes and the compute attributes. That's going to speed up everything. >> And I think Lee is 100% spot on there and every customer I've talked to this week, you have to make the transition to an infrastructure team, not a network team, a storage team, a security team, you're an infrastructure team, and this is why the app developers have been going around you, right? And this is why you have Shadow IT, it's because they want fast and simple and they don't want to have to deal with four different people, right? They don't want to have to deal with a serialization of a deployment that they're left waiting for the lag for and I think in terms of the edge computing, I think you related it to one of the conversations by Andreessen Horowitz. I think that might differ a little bit in the consumer space and in the enterprise space as well so it may be the case in the consumer space that it erodes some functionality from the cloud, particularly on the IoT side of things as well, driverless cars and things of that nature where it makes sense that if you get disconnected that you still need to have some computing capacity so you don't crash, right Lee? Crashing is not good. But I think the behavioral change, the people change, the mindset change is much more challenging than the technological change. Everything you haven't done before seems complicated until you actually do it, right? >> Alright well, we talked a lot to customers. Actually some of that organizational change is helping them to tackle things like those new architectures. Security is one that is I've been leaving it for too long and now absolutely front of the table. Don Delfino, Lee Caswell, always a pleasure to catch up with both you. >> Always a pleasure. >> Hope it lived up to your expectations that we brought the heat. Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman. You're watching theCUBE, back with lots more coverage here from VMworld 2017. Thank you for watching the CUBE. (light electronic music)

(upbeat music) [Narrator] Live from Las Vegas. It's the CUBE, covering Oracle Modern Customer Experience 2017. Brought to you by Oracle. >> Welcome back everyone. We're live in Las Vegas here at the Mandalay Bay for Oracle's Modern Customer Experience conference, their second year. This is the CUBE, Silicon ANGLES flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier. My co-host Peter Burris, head of research at Wikibon.com. Our next guest is Jack Berkowitz who's the Vice President of Products and Data Science at Oracle. Well, great to have you on the CUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks a lot. >> Appreciate it. Love talking to the product guys, getting down and dirty on the products. So, AI is hot this year. It's everywhere. Everyone's got an AI in their product. What is the AI component in your product? >> Well, what we're working on is building truly adaptive experiences for people. So, we have a whole bunch of different techniques and technologies all of it comes together essentially to create a system that amplifies peoples capabilities. That's really the key thing. Two real important components. First of all, it's all about data. Everybody talks about it. Well, what we've put together is, in terms of consumers, is the largest collection of consumer data in the Oracle data cloud. So we take advantage of all that consumer data. We also have a lot of work going on with collecting business data, both Oracle originated data as well as partner data. We're bringing that all that together and it sets the context for the AI. Now on top of that we have not just the latest trends in terms of machine learning or neural networks or things like that, but we're borrowing concepts from advertising, borrowing concepts from hedge funds so that we can make a real-time system. It's all about real-time. >> You mentioned neural networks. A lot of stuff conceptually in computer science has been around literally for decades. What is, from your definition - obviously cloud creates a lot of data out there now, but what is AI these days? Because everyone now is seeing AI as a mainstream term. Even the word metadata, since Snowden's thing, is now a mainstream term. Who would have thought metadata and AI would be talked about at kitchen tables? >> Yeah. >> What is AI from your perspective? >> Yeah, from my perspective it's really about augmenting folks. It's really about helping people do things. So maybe we'll automate some very manual tasks out, right, that will free up people to have more time to do some other things. I don't think it's about replacing people. People are creative. We want to get people back to being creative and people are great at problem solving so let's get them that information. Let's get them aid so they can get back to it. >> And give them options. >> Give them options, exactly. Exactly. You know, if you can free up somebody from having to manipulate spreadsheets and all this other stuff so they can just get the answer and get on with things, people are happier. >> So Oracle is using first-person data and third-person data to build these capabilities, right? >> Jack: Yeah, exactly. >> How is that going to play out? How is Oracle going to go to a customer and say we will appropriately utilize this third-person data in a way that does not undermine your first-person rights or value proposition? >> That's a great question. So, privacy and respect has been sort of the principle we've been driving at here. So there's the mechanics of it. People can opt in. People can opt out. There's all the mechanics and the regulatory side of it but it's really about how do you use these things so that it doesn't feel creepy. How do you do this in a subtle way so that somebody accepts the fact that that's the case? And it's really about the benefit to the person as to whether or not they're willing to make that trade-off. A great example is Waze. Waze I use all the time to get around San Francisco traffic. You guys probably use it as well. Well, guess what? If you really think about it, Waze knows what time I leave the house in the morning, what time I come home. Uber knows that once a month I leave at 2:00 on a Sunday and come back a week later. So, as long as you think about that, I'm getting a benefit from Waze I'm happy to have that partnership with them in terms of my data and they respect it and so therefore it works. >> And that comes back to some of the broader concepts of modern customer experience. It is that quid pro quo that I'll take a little data from you to improve the service that I'm able to provide as measured by the increasing value customer experience that's provided. >> Yeah, that's right. I used to live in London and in London there's these stores where you can go in and that sales guy has been there for like twenty years and you just develop a relationship. He knows you. He knows your kids, and so sure enough, stationary store or whatever it is and he gives you that personal experience. That's a relationship that I've built. That really all we're trying to do with all of this. We're trying to create a situation where people can have relationships again. >> And he's prompted with history of knowing you, just give you a pleasant surprise or experience that makes you go wow. And that's data driven now. So how do you guys do that? Cause this is something that, you know, Mark Heard brought up in his keynote that every little experience in the world is a data touchpoint. >> Jack: Yeah. >> And digital, whatever you're doing, so how do you guys put that in motion for data because that means data's got to be freely available. >> Data's got to be freely available. One of the big things that we brought to bear with the Suite X is that the data is connected and the experiences are connected so really we're talking about adding that connected intelligence on top of that data. So, it's not just the data. In fact we talked about it last night. It's not just the data even from the CX systems from service, but even the feed of what inventory's going on in real-time. So I can tell somebody if something's broken, hey, tell you what. This store has it. You can go exchange it, in real-time. Instead of having to wait for a courier or things like that. So it is that data being connected and the fact that our third-party data, you know this consumer data, is actually connected as well. So we bring that in on the fly with the appropriate context so it just works. >> So one of the new things here is the adaptive intelligence positioning products. What is that and take a minute to explain the features of how that came to be and how it's different from the competition. >> Okay, great. So the products are very purposeful built apps that plug in and amplify Oracle cloud apps and you can actually put in a third-party capability if you happen to have it. So that's the capability and it's got the decision science and machine learning and the data. >> Peter: So give me an example of a product. >> So a product is adaptive intelligence offers which we were showing here. It gives product recommendations, gives promotions, gives content recommendations on websites but also in your email. If you go into the store you get the same stuff and we can then go and activate advertising campaigns to bring in more people based on those successful pick ups of products or promotions. Its a great example. Very constrained use case addressed? >> Peter: Fed by a lot of different data. >> Fed by a lot of different data. The reason why they're adaptive is because they happen in real-time. So this isn't a batch mode thing. We don't calculate it the day before. We don't calculate it a week before or every three hours. It's actually click by click for you, and for you, reacting and re-scoring and re-balancing. And so we can get a wisdom of the crowds going on and an individual reaction, click by click, interaction by interaction. >> This is an important point I think that's nuanced in the industry. You mentioned batch mode which talks about how things are processed and managed to real-time and the big data space is a huge transition whether you're looking at hadoop or in memory or at all the architectures out there from batch data lakes to data in motion they're calling it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So now you have this free flowing scalable data layers, if you will, every where, so being adaptive means what? Being ready? Being ... >> Being ready is the fundamental principle to getting to being adaptive. Being adaptive is just like this conversation. Being able to adjust, right? And not giving you the same exact answer seven times in a row because you asked me the same question. >> Or if it's in some talking point database you'd pull up from a FAQ. >> Peter: So it adapts to context. >> It's all about adapting to context. If the concepts change, then the system will adopt that context and adapt it's response. >> That's right. And we were showing last night, even in the interaction, as more context is given, the system can then pick that up and spin and then give you what you need? >> The Omni Channel is a term that's not new but certainly is amplified by this because now you have a world certainly with multiple clouds available to customers but also data is everywhere. Data is everywhere and channels are everywhere. >> Data is everywhere. And being adaptive also means customizing something at a point and time >> Exactly. and you might not know what it is up until seconds or near real-time or actually real-time. >> Real time, right? Real human time. 100 milliseconds. 150 milliseconds, anywhere in the world, is what we're striving for. >> And that means knowing that in some database somewhere you checked into a hotel, The Four Seasons, doing a little check in the hotel and now, oh, you left your house on Uber. Oh, you're the CEO of Oracle. You're in a rental car. I'm going to give you a different experience. >> Jack: Yeah. >> Knowing you're a travel warrior, executive. That's kind of what Mark Heard was trying to get to yesterday. >> Yeah, that's what he's getting to. So it's a bit of a journey, right? This is not a sprint. So there's been all this press and you think, oh my god, if I don't have ... It's a journey. It's a bit of a marathon, but these are the experiences that are happening. >> I want to pick up on 150 milliseconds is quite the design point. I mean human beings are not able to register information faster than about 80 milliseconds. >> Jack: Yeah, yeah. So you're talking about two brain cycles coming back to that. >> Jack: Yeah. >> I mean it's an analogy but it's not a bad one. >> Jack: No. >> 150 milliseconds anywhere in the world. That is a supreme design point. >> And it is what we're shooting for. Obviously there's things about networks and everything that have to be worked through but yeah, that responsiveness, but you're seeing that responsiveness at some of the big consumer sites. You see that type of responsiveness. That's what we want to get to. >> So at the risk of getting too technical here, how does multiple cloud integration or hopping change that equation? Is this one of the reasons it's going to drive customers to a tighter relationship with Oracle because it's going to be easier to provide the 150 millisecond response inside the Oracle fabric? >> Yeah, you nailed it. And I don't want to take too many shots at my competitors, but I'm going to. We don't have to move data. I don't have to move my data from me to AWS to some place else, right, Blue Mix, whatever it happens to be. And because we don't have to move data, we can get that speed. And because it's behind the fabric, as you put it, we can get that speed. We have the ability to scale the data centers. We have the data centers located where we need them. Now your recommendations, if you happen to be here today, they're here. They may transition to Sydney if you're in Australia to be able to give you that speed but that is the notion to have that seamless experience for you, even for travelers. >> That's a gauntlet. You just threw down a gauntlet. >> Jack: I did. Yeah. >> And that's what we're going to go compete against. Because what we're competing is on the experience for people. We're not competing on who's got the better algorithm. We're competing on that experience to people and everything about that. >> So that also brings up the point of third-party data because to have that speed certainly you have advantages in your architecture but humans don't care about Oracle and on which server. They care about what's going on on their phone, on their mobile. >> Jack: That's right. >> Okay, so the user, that requires some integration. So it won't be 100 percent Oracle. There's some third-party. What's the architecture, philosophy, guiding principles around integrating third-party data for you guys. Because it's certainly part of the system. It's part of the product, but I don't think it's ... >> So there's third=party data which could be from data partners or Oracle originated data through our Oracle data cloud or the 1500 licensed data partners there and there's also third-party systems. So for example if somebody had Magento Commerce and they wanted to include that into our capability. On the third party systems, we actually have built this around an API architecture or infrastructure using REST and it's basically a challenge I gave my PMs. I said look, I want you to test against the Oracle cloud system. I want you to test against the Oracle on-prem system and I want you to find the leading third-party system. I don't care if it's sales force or anybody else and I want you to test against that and so as long as people can map to the REST APIs that we have, they can have inter-operation with their systems. >> I mean the architectural philosophy is to decouple and make highly cohesive elements and you guys are a big part of that with Oracle as a component. >> Jack: That's right. >> But I'm still going to need to get stuff from other places and so API is a strategy and microservices are all going to be involved with that. >> Yeah, and actually we deployed a full microservice architecture so behind the scenes on that offers one, 19 microservices interplaying and operating. >> But the reality is this is going to be one of the biggest challenges that answers faces is that how we bridge, or how we gateway, cloud services from a lot of different providers is a non-trivial challenge. >> Jack: That's right. >> I remember back early on in my career when we had all these mini computer companies and each one had their own proprietary network on the shop floor for doing cell controllers or finance or whatever it might be and when customers wanted to bring those things together the mini computer companies said, yeah, put a bridge in place. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And along came TCPIP and Cisco and said forget that. Throw them all out. It wasn't the microprocessor that couldn't stick to those mini computer companies. It was TCPIP. The challenge that we face here is how are we going to do something similar because we're not going to bridge these things. The latency and the speed, and you hit the key point, where is the data, is going to have an enormous impact on this. >> That's right. And again, the investments we have been making with the CX Cloud Suite will allow us to do that. Allow us to take advantage with a whole bunch of data right away and the integration with the ODCs, so we couldn't probably have done this two or three years ago because we weren't ready. We're ready now. And now we can start to build it. We can start to take it now up to the next level. >> And to his point about the road map and TCPIP was interesting. We're all historians here. We're old enough to remember those days, but TCPIP standardized the OSI model which was a fantasy of seven layers of open standards if you remember. >> Jack: Seven layers, yep, whew. >> Peter: See we still talk about it. >> What layer are you on? >> But at the time, the proprietary was IBM and DEC owned the network stacks so that essentially leveled off there so the high-water mark was operating at TCPIP. Is there an equivalent analog to that in this world because IF you can almost take what he said and say take it to the cloud and say look at some point in this whatever stack you want to call it, if it is a stack, there has to be a moment of coalescing around something for everybody. And then a point of differentiation. >> So yeah, and again I'm just going to go back - and that's a great question by the way and it's - I'm like thinking this through as I say it, but I'm going to go right back to what I said. It's about people. So if I coalesce the information around that person, whether that person is a consumer or that person's a sales guy or that person's working on inventory management or better yet disaster relief, which is all those things put together. It's about them and about what they need. So if I get that central object around people, around companies then I have something that I can coalesce and share a semantic on. So the semantic is another old seven layer word. I didn't want to say it today but I can have ... >> Disruptive enabler. >> So then what you're saying is that we need a stack, and I use that word prohibitively, but we need a way of characterizing layer seven application so that we have ... >> Or horizontal >> Either way. But the idea is that we need to get more into how the data gets handled and not just how the message gets handled. >> Jack: That's right. >> OSI's always focused on how the message got handled. Now we're focused on how the data gets handled given that messaging substraight and that is going to be the big challenge for the industry. >> Jack: Yeah. >> Well, certainly Larry Ellis is going to love this conversation, OSI, TCPIP, going old school right here. >> Jack: Like you said, we're all old and yeah, that's what we grew up in. >> Yeah, but this is definitely ... >> Hey, today's computers and today's notions are built on the shoulders of giants. >> Well the enabling that's happening is so disruptive it's going to be a 20 or 30 year innovation window and we're just at the beginning. So the final question I have for you Jack is summarize for the folks watching. What is the exciting things about the AI and the adaptive intelligence announcements and products that you guys are showing here and how does that go forward into the future without revealing any kind of secrets on Oracle like you're a public company. What's the bottom line? What's the exciting thing they should know about? >> I think the exciting thing is that they're going to be able to take advantage of these technologies, these techniques, all this stuff, without having to hire a thousand data scientists in a seven month program or seven year program to take advantage of it. They're going to be able to get up and running very, very quickly. They can experiment with it to be able to make sure that it's doing the right thing. From a CX company, they can get back to doing what they do which is building great product, building great promotions, building a great customer service experience. They don't have to worry about gee, what's our seven year plan for building AI capabilities? That's pretty exciting. It lets them get back to doing what they do which is to compete on their products. >> And I think the messaging of this show is really good because you talk about empowerment, the hero. It's kind of gimmicky but the truth is what cloud has shown in the world is you can offload some of those mundane stuff and really focus on the task at hand, being creative or building solutions, or whatever you're doing. >> Yeah. Mark was talking about it. You have this much money to spend, what's my decision to spend it on. Spend it on competing with your products. >> All right, Jack Berkowitz live here inside the CUBE here at Oracle's Modern Customer Experience, talking about the products, the data science, AI's hot. Great products. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. Welcome to the CUBE and good job sharing some great insight and the data here. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the queue at IBM interconnect 2015 brought to you by headline sponsor IBM. >>Hey, welcome back everyone. We are live in Las Vegas. This is the cube Silicon angle's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John furrier with Dave Alante host. Our next guest is Meg Swanson, director of marketing for IBM blue mix and with psyched to have her back on the cube last year we interviewed you one year ago in blue mix got kicked off. It was just a beta. Now it's blowing up huge and all the great success. Welcome back and congratulations. Right. >>Thank you. It's been a, it's been quite a year of Steve Robinson says if we kind of count these and joggers feels a bit like seven and it's been absolutely exciting. So we've in a span of a year, cause when we met at polls we were just at beta, you know we were, we were onboarding developers, getting feedback and now we have over 102 services on the platforms. They're rolling out rapidly and we have the deployment models with public, private and then we announced local at the show and it's just been, it's been tremendous. >>But before we get into some of the details, there's a lot of things to highlight. I want to just say congratulations because we cover a lot of companies you want to win when we meet people and they say they're going to do something and then they do it and do more and over and over achieve on the, on the mission. Cause you guys were very cautious at first you got Bloomix out there and then the wind was your back. The CEO says we need to win cloud. Right? And so you get the little reorg going on. Nancy Pearson was on yesterday, shows a little, a little bit of color on that and now you've got developers, you've got resources at your disposal. So take us through that. What happened? I mean I'll see blue mix hit a nerve obviously right out of the gate the signups were pretty strong, but we didn't hit that tipping point. When did you take us through the tipping point? When did it go? Oh my God, we've got a tiger by the tail. It was when the resources came in, was it before or after? >>It has a bit before that. So it's really your middle of, of last year. So as we, we had incredible adoption early on. So really building Bloomix from an open source perspective, building on cloud Foundry, strong partnerships with cloud Foundry and the team. And then just onboarding service after service. It truly owned reticent and all the different partners that we've had. And then around October was when we brought the Watson services on and we had been steadily growing, you know, the developer following and the babies that was pre yes. And uh, and the teams have always a mix is a platform that we're serving up. Um, you know, the IBM, uh, services plus our third party and open source. So we, even though we asked, we just reorganized, we've been working across the team since day one because we have the internet of things services, which are fantastic. Those are taking off really well. And we have the Watson teams, we have the mobile teams, the DevOps teams. So we're constantly working across and now we're reorganized into the cloud unit, which is fantastic because it just helps accelerate even more so >>you know, any, any agile business that has continuous integration like the cloud internally, you have to kind of think that way. And we're hearing that I internally at IBM does a transformation to be more agile, to go faster, which everyone's saying go fast. Everyone wants you to go fast. The CEOs, they said that yesterday, um, was, it was the tipping point that you had success and you doubled down on it was there, the proof point was Watson says, Hey look it, we can do this. Was that the key enabler? >>Yeah, the tipping point for us was really in the early stages, listening to developer feedback and making sure that we were re architecting and designing the product, that we have an incredible onboarding experience. So it developers where we know from marketing standpoint, we were getting the word out and really focusing on building community. So, you know, a few months into the year we started just very small grassroots meetup groups. Right now we have 71 countries every other week having meetups for their building applications on Bloomix. So for us it was, it was getting that community started and then having the community realize that we were taking their feedback on board and we would get, even on our Twitter handle, we'd get updates saying, Whoa, thanks Bloomix didn't, didn't realize you were listing to a, to the feedback and they, and they would mentioned what they had, you know, tweeted at us as far as um, input and how we'd made the change. And so every other day we're posting, you know, blog posts with updates on how we're working with developers. Just to make it a lot easier. >>Matt, can you talk about your open source strategy and how it's evolved as a company? I mean, IBM was, I think the first large enterprise company to get dive into open source and you went in big billion dollar investment way back when the Linux stories were now, but it's really evolved. Um, you use your, your muscle, your money and your vision and, and your open source of history, you know, in the community. How has it evolved? How is it changing? >>IBM for over 20 years we've been driving and fueling and having engineers really involved in open source community and helping to move that community along lifted up and and really anything that you're doing, especially from a hybrid cloud standpoint, you have to have open standards, you have to build an open architecture, you have to be embracing, you know, all the various open source technologies that are out there. You saw the work that we're doing and you spoke with the Docker team yesterday and, and so from our perspective is there's, there's no other way it is open by design. So all of our teams are very focused on making sure that we're working with the cloud Foundry foundation and getting input from all of the companies that are involved in that foundation. Because together we are going to create, you know, open standards and drive and momentum. Because if you're an independent developer or even if you're a large enterprise acting at the speed of an independent developer like we saw yesterday with city, you've got to be able to move and be portable. And if you're locked into proprietary standards, you're, you're just really, there's, there's nowhere you to go in this new world and this all the integration that you need. >>Okay. But there's another nuance there that I want to explore with you is that in the old days, it used to be you'd have a committee, right? Right. Everybody would maybe pay to get into the committee and they'd set a bunch of standards. Nine times out of 10 or 99 out of a hundred that it would flop. Right. And people, a lot of people said that would happen. For instance, with cloud Foundry, you guys came in and gave it a big lift. They're talking to that way around the open data platform now. So what's the difference? Is it just that there's an open source component to it? Is it that simple? >>Is the community, so, I mean, open source is successful because of the community. Listening to the community and sharing the community has a voice. And then the companies that are involved at, you know, at maybe more of a, you'll see that the table from a leadership perspective with the foundations, it's their, their role and their mission to be listening to the community and bring those forward. If any of those fail and you know, the companies involved aren't listening to the community or the community's not engaged and doesn't feel engaged and they're not innovating the platform, it's not going to work. So that's why we're very focused on building the sense of community, listening to what's out there and then enhancing. So you on the announcement with the Docker around enterprise grade containers, we were very specific with the way we approached that and named that. And you look at your, the secure gateway that needs to be added. You look at, um, the enhancements we've made from cloud Foundry on auto scaling. So really looking at what is the community looking for and then how do we then pay it back. >>So what's the message to developers? I mean, it sounds awesome. It's not easy. What you just described. Just Oh yeah, let's get the community. Well, it's hard to build community. So what's the message to developers? They have a lot of choices, a lot of options, and they spend time in various areas. What's the message to them from IBM, >>from an over an open source standpoint, just to be involved, be committed, be any, there are projects every day within the open source community where you can contribute code and you can be involved. And it's really about being very active and vocal and having, having a seat at the table. So I mean our teams, we're constantly looking through stack overflow in the feedback that we see their feedback on Reddit, feedback on get hub, you know, how, how often is the code being for blood? What kind of adoption metrics are we seeing? So from a developer standpoint, I would say, you know, it's time to lean in and be very involved because I mean not just IBM, but all the companies that we're working with across absolutely listening. And I mean this is such an era for developers where they, they have a seat at, at this big community table. It's not easy, but it's the right thing to do. The >>Docker and the register, this is modern stuff that developers want doctors. The hottest trend, you know, I was talking to dr folks, we interviewed Solomon years or couple of years ago in the cube before they changed their name even it was like, and we're so excited and all of a sudden they're now the bell of the ball. As you say, everyone wants to get married with Docker. Red is also is compelling node. These are cutting edge technologies that are part of the integrated stack. So how do you guys talk about that? In contrast to say Amazon, because Amazon and developers are used to these things. Elastic means stuff. They have auto-scaling. What do you guys have now that's direct, directly competitive with Amazon? >>Well, from a, from an application development standpoint, I see where we've gotten advantage is you look at the history of IBM around dev ops, right? So bringing together development operations in this continuous delivery life cycle and really looking at how are you going to quickly build an application and then that's, that's not the end of it, right? You now have to make sure from a security standpoint or you know, and you've heard from Mark Zonoff yesterday and the team on how are we providing strong security tools where you can do, you know in process application scanning and then you've got to deploy, you've got to auto scale, you've got to bring it back and you've got maybe an issue you've got to remediate and then redeploy. So for us it's really looking at at mobile app development and web development in that developer life cycle. And then in our conversations with our partners, the open source community, it's ensuring that we are helping to accelerate that every step of the way. >>I mean the announcement around API harmony, great example where we've got kind of the era of the impatient developer and we're all of us where you don't want to spend time writing a line of code if it's already been written. You don't want to spend time, you know, creating integration and creating API APIs if they're already out there. What you need are the tools at your fingertips where you can quickly build an application, search all the API APIs that are available and your private API APIs, you know, connect that into your mobile applications so you're to market faster. And then it's about you're enhancing and uh, you know, and, and really bringing different, yeah. >>So what do you say the developer out there that's watching this gives it the profile. Yeah, I'm comfortable. Amazon, I'm not sure I should go on blue mix. Maybe I should, maybe the best move was not to move or maybe they have something I want that I don't know about. So talk about those two scenarios. Cause like they're comfortable, they're like, okay, I, I'm fearful of moving over cause I'm comfortable over here with my tooling. Um, you know, developers are cause you work with them and then there's also the fear of missing out. Like, can I do better on Bloomex? So that's a common theme that we're hearing on developers. So how do you, how do you talk to those specifics? >>Yeah, and we, uh, we have those conversations, uh, quite a bit. And it's really about looking ahead at your strategy and at what point, especially for uh, developers within large enterprises. At what point do you need to connect with the backend systems? At what point do you need to ensure that you've got secure connectors? Our European clients are Latin American clients. They had concerns around data privacy, right? And so how are you sure that even the data centers that it's hosted in, you know, we have 40 data centers within software and growing every day and those are owned by IBM. Those are secured and it's really looking at where are you going to go as you expand your application. And do you have the right partner in place, the right steps along the way that you can, and more importantly, that you're not locked in. Because as much as, I mean, we have a lot of heart for Bloomex and what we're building, we want to ensure that we've built it to be open because we also want to have know low barrier exit. We want to make sure it's a great experience and it's our job to make sure that we've got the right services. The right time. >>So you don't, they don't feel locked in. So lock in is the lock in is a satisfaction >>yeah. Experience. It's not a, Oh I can't move because it's going to be too expensive to, you know. Right. And then there is a sense of, of expense that we're starting to see around the hidden cost of data. And as you may have walked into what you thought was a freemium model with some of the providers that are out there and you're scaling and now you have an ornament amount of data coming in and you're looking to store and provision that we are hearing, I mean the, there are hidden costs there that are also going to opening the door to other players that we've, we've, we know that we understand, uh, what you're gonna be facing down the road. So we've built the, the pricing, the application, the platform to allow for that. Whereas there are other platforms that haven't, because it is, you know, working at that kind of volume and scales a bit bit new to them and having to move that >>data is a problem too. So you mentioned 40 data centers, the more the merrier. I say here's some of the statistics. What's happening? How many services we did a little bit yesterday. Go a little deeper. What's exciting? What are the, the, the proud pieces of the, the platform that you can share with the developers? >>Yeah, it's been the integration. It's high integration between the design teams and in listening to developer feedback and then constantly designing the platform to have an amazing onboarding experience. So we announced yesterday the, uh, the Watson zones and the internet of things zone. And these are really designed to be, uh, a way to onboard into blue mix for developers that give you all the tools and resources and training that you need in order to start using cognitive applications like Watson. Because it is as exciting as the Watson services are, you do have a moment where you sit back and think, how am I going to use the power of Watson in my application? So we're creating these onboarding zones. So that's been huge advancement. Really excited about that. You're gonna see a lot more zones come out from us this year. And then the area of internet of things. So we have our, our IOT services. You had Nigel and Ian on yesterday from silver Hawk and power boat racing with internet things. They're fantastic. >>How about business outcomes? Get to finish the race and when you know the stories to the monitors, so you know if your heart rates going over right, >>that's pretty important data. And uh, so, so what we've seen to the exciting areas are really the zones and then the adoption and growth around internet of things space. And, uh, it's, it's a funny art. Our teams of developers that are out working with clients and out working with startups. If you open up their bags, they're probably gonna find a light bulb, a pebble watch. Um, but to connectors, I'm surprised anybody can get their report security nowadays that's on our team because we have all these demonstrations that we're doing with clients of, you know, imagine if you have, if you're trying to create a smart building for your employees and you have their mobile devices that are sensing and, and pinging the, um, the thermostat system, the lighting system. I'm the office. And as they're driving in and getting in proximity, things start turning on inside the office. So we do downloads with light bulbs and watches and, and really are starting to think through this smarter planet and smarter cities initiative with internet of things. And how are you using Bloomix and the power of cloud to now bring that to life within, uh, within cities and within enterprises? >>Go ahead. What's the developer persona look like these days when you're talking about the startup she talked to you? Think of the hoodies you think about the enterprise guys. So those two worlds coming together, >>they are in, in the fact that a lot of large enterprises are building innovation centers inside of themselves. And so they have, um, whether it's, if they have foundries or innovation centers or groups of developers, they're really looking to harness that, that speed and uh, an innovation that we've seen from, you know, some of the enterprise developers. And then also the big advancement that we've seen is the continual growth of the hackathons. So, you know, we know city we've been partnering with at and T as well on, on creating as many opportunities for their internal developers and external ecosystem of developers to be bringing forward new ideas to them. And then what we, we don't talk about as much publicly are the internal hackathons we do inside of large corporations. So we work with the CIO, his office, we go in 24 hour period and their developers are working on Bloomex within 24 hours. Well, depending on the number of, of it of developers they have, we'll have, you know, 50 75 a hundred mobile apps that are built. And then shark tank style, you know, they pitch the apps to their CIO and we vote on them together, you know, with the company. And then that's the roadmap for, you know, their 2015 plan and what applications they're going to bring tomorrow market. >>So talk about the geekiness of IBM and we were talking about this on the intro about what IBM should be doing, obviously where we're editorializing and pining, but um, it's known as kind of like the big company is slow old IBM, big blue, big iron and you guys are trying to be cool to see the keynotes out here. We may see that, but you guys actually have a geeky kind of community going out with this dev thing, which we've been following the past couple of years. It's pretty cool. Um, IBM is a geek culture. I mean it's got a lot of geeks that IBM, and that's a bad word we heard in New York, but a lot of computer science is um, technical people, very awesome bench of talent and patents. Right? So I'll ask, coming to bear, we're hearing, so share with the folks out there that are watching, what's it like at IBM? It's geeky. Is it? Is it, you said they carry gadgets around, I mean, is that the way people are at IBM? I mean, what's the culture like? Your group is, I think one of the ones that are kind of the edgiest. I think it's definitely not a mall culture. >>This multiple pockets. You've got a conservative customer base, but the average to be good, you gotta be, >>yeah, you gotta be kidding. It's about being authentic. So we're not trying to be anything. We're not. And when you look at me, you met, you know, the teams that I've gone through. We've got Jeff's lawyer and Marvin Goldman running around on our teams and, and we have massive development labs, you know, OBS, developers within, you know, high fund, our, our London facilities. And this is going on every day. So we're not putting on airs. You're not pretending. This is truly what our teams are doing. So we have, you know, Joshua Carr in the UK is constantly with, um, you know, with, with children in schools, showing them how to fly a drone with a banana, right where you do the device connectors. That wasn't because it was a stunt that we were trying to pull. It's just truly what they do. And we're very involved in the STEM initiatives for schools. >>I'm very involved in, you know, our distinguished engineers working through. So, but to attract developers and to get them in gray shade into your platform on board, you're judged by the company kids, they want to see themselves there. Right? So that's, there's a culture of developers now, I don't want to say brogrammers but like in this, the youngest guns are like, they've never loaded Linux on machines. They always say what bloats off where it's all cloud to them. So you're born in the cloud. So that's just a complete cultural shift, right, to talk about you guys have that mojo internally or, yes, it's about, it's about taking what we know inside the company and exposing that to developers and creating that developer to develop our connection. And you mentioned programmers. I mean we have Lauren Schaffer, we have a number of female developers on our teams and we are very much focused on ensuring that we're leading and making sure that we are creating a very balanced on environment of developers and leading in that area of making sure we have a lot of diversity. >>And so it's really about, from a marketing standpoint, it's, you know, you don't market to developers. Yeah, no, your technical chops or what's the market and you make sure that what they're interested in and what thereafter we're going to connect them with an IBM development team or is somebody else in the community through developer works that's working on it as well. And it's that local community. There's local connections headfake developers as we learned that. No, and my team, my marketing team, it's half developers, half data analysts. I mean we are, I mean EDC shifts inside of IBM marketing. I mean it's all data driven. I'm using the entire portfolio SAS portfolio we have with, you know, Unica, Coremetrics and, and then every day giving developers more trends and more technologies to play with your kid in the candy store. They ask you the, um, the question that's on my mind is what was the big learnings over the year that you guys walked away? >>What was magnified this year? Y'all see, you launched it a year ago, you have some growth, right? What's the learnings that was magnified for your team and the whole group? I'd say the speed. Um, so when you talked about, you know, agile development, agile delivery, you look at going from, you know, a few services to 102, you now have to re reinvent the way product development is done inside the company. So it's cloud versus mobile first. And it's really looking at across all the services we have, how long can they be a beta, how long, you know, are we going to do testing? What is the beta to general availability, onboarding for developers and migration path. Because a lot of companies will launch a beta, you're using the beta, you're embedded in it, and then all of a sudden it goes generally available and you have to rip and replace. Like that's horrible. And you know, experience. So we've, the biggest change I've seen is just the agile delivery and the speed at which internally to IBM we're working and learning from our partners that we're onboarding, bringing more and more partners every day. >>We got a break, but I want to ask you one final question. What's the coolest thing that you guys have done with Blumix internally? >>So internally it's been the Watson services and the Watson hackathons. So, uh, we are doing message resonance and sentiment analysis, so you can actually take a memos that are written or uh, or external documentation, run it through message resonance and, and start creating profiles of, of messaging. So it's been a, so you've got traditional writers, you know, geeking out of it and now they're uploading their content into the mobile applications and, uh, and you're then changing the way that, >>yeah, we had, we did a test, Adam sent us a link for the beta with the blue mix and we took all our chats and the social group has an amazing crowd chats, a zillion people on it and it's a huge transcript. I just cut and paste the transcript into the site and it spit out like the top things. And it was like, you know, openness cause it's a, it's a Twitter, Twitter, Twitter chat and they gave it a little, all the sentiment. I was like, wow, this is awesome so we could see where this going. So, um, that's cool. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming on the cube again. Great to see you. Congratulations and keep us posted and we'll bull up. Keep checking in with you on the progress. This is the cube. We'll be right back live in Las Vegas after this short break.