>>from San Francisco. It's the queue every day to thank you. Brought to you by day to like you. Hey, >>welcome back already, Jeffrey. Here with the Cube were a day to IQ's headquarters in downtown San Francisco. They used to be metal sphere, which is what you might know them as. And they've rebranded earlier this year. And they're really talking about helping Enterprises in their journey to cloud native. And we're really excited to have really one of the product guys he's been here and seeing this journey and how through with the customers and helping the company transforming his Chandler hosing tonight. He's the s VP of engineering and product. Chandler, great to see you. Thanks. So, first off, give everyone kind of a background on on the day to like you. I think a lot of people knew mesosphere. You guys around making noise? What kind of changed in the marketplace to to do a rebranding? >>Sure. Yeah, we've been obviously, Mason's here in the past and may so so I think a lot of people watching the cube knows No, no one knows about Mace ose as as we were going along our journey as a company. We noticed that a lot of people are also asking for carbonates. Eso We've actually been working with kubernetes since I don't know 16 4017 something that for a while now and as Maur Maur as communities ecosystem starting involving mature more. We also want to jump in and take advantage of that. And we started building some products that were specific to kubernetes and eso. We thought, Look, you know, it's a little bit confusing for people May, SOS and Kubernetes and at times those two technologies were seen almost as competitive, even though we didn't always see it that way. The market saw it that way, so we said, Look, this is going too confusing for customers being called Mesa Sphere. Let's let's rebrand around Maur what we really do. And we felt like what we do is not just focus around one specific technology. We felt like we helped customers with more than that more than just may so support more than just community support, Andi said. Look, let's let's get us a name that shows what we actually do for customers, and that's really helping them take their workloads and put them on on Not just, you know, um, a source platform, but actually take their workloads, bring them into production and enterprise way. That's really ready for day two. And that's that's why we called it data. >>And let's unpack the day to, cause I think some people are really familiar with the concept of day two. And for some people, they probably never heard it. But it's a pretty interesting concept, and I think it packs a lot of meaning in it. A number of letters. I think you >>can kind of just think about it if you were writing software, right? I mean, Day zero is okay. We're gonna design it. We're gonna start playing with some ideas. We're gonna pull into different technologies. We're gonna do a POC. We're gonna build our skateboards. So to say, that's kind of your day. Zero. What do we want? Okay, we're gonna build a Data Analytics pipeline. We want spark. We're going to store data. Cassandra, we're gonna use cough. Go to pass it around. We're gonna run our containers on top of communities. That's just kind of your day. Zero idea. You get it working, you slap it on a cluster. Things are good right? Day one might be okay. Let's actually do a beta put in production in some kind of way. You start getting customers using it. But now, in Day two, after all that's done, you're like, Wait a second. Things were going wrong. Where's our monitoring? We didn't set that up. Where's our logging? Oh, I don't know. Like, >>who do we >>call this? Our container Run time, we think has above. Who do we call like? Oh, I don't know What support contract that we cut, Right? So that's the things that we want to help customers with. We want to help them in the whole journey, getting to Day two. But once they're there, we want them to be ready for day two, right? And that's what we do. >>I love it because one of my favorite quotes I've used it 1000 times. I'll do 2001 right? Is that open source is free like a puppy. Exactly for you. When you leave you guys, you're not writing a check necessarily to the to the shelter, But there's a whole lot of other check. You got a right and take care of. And I think that's such a key piece. Thio Enterprise, right. They need somebody to call when that thing breaks. >>Yeah. I mean, I haven't come from enterprise company. I was actually a customer basis Fear before I joined. Yeah, that's exactly why we're customers that we wanted. Not only that, insurance policy, but someone that partner with us as we start figuring this out, you know? I mean, just picking. You know what container run time do I want to use with communities? That one decision could take months if you're not familiar with it. And you you put a couple of your best architects on it. Go research container. You go research, cryo go research doctor. Tell me what's what's the best one we should use with kubernetes. Whereas if you're going, if you have a partnership with a company like day two, you can say, Look, I trust these. You know this company, they they're they're experts of this and they see a lot of this. Let's go with their recommendation. It's >>okay. So you got you got your white board. You've got a whole bunch of open source things going on, right? And you've got a whole bunch of initiatives and the pressure's coming down from from on high to get going, you've got containers, Asian and Cloud native and hybrid Cloud all the stuff. And then you've got some port CEO on his team trying to figure it out. You guys have a whole plethora of service is around some of these products. So as you try it and then you got the journey right and you don't start from from a standing start. You gotta go. You gotta go. So how do you map out the combination of how people progress through their journey? What are the different types of systems that they want to put in place and into, prioritize and have some type of a logical successful implementation and roll out of these things from day zero day 132? No, it's >>a great question. I think that's actually how we formed our product. Strategy is we've been doing this for a while now and we've we've gone. We've gone on this journey with really big advanced customers like ride sharing companies and large telcos customers like that. We've also gone on this journey with smaller, less sophisticated customers like, you know, industrial customers from the Midwest. Right? And those are two very, very different customers. But what's similar is they're both going on the same journey we feel like, but they're just at different places. So we wanted to build products, find the customer where they're at in their journey, and the way we see it really is just at the very beginning. It's just training, right? So we have, ah, bunch of support. We're sorry. Service is around training. Help you understand? Not just kubernetes, but the whole cloud native ecosystem. So what is all this stuff? How does it work? How does it fit together? How do I just deploy simple app to right? That's the beginning of it. We also have some products in that area as well, to help people scale their training across the whole whole organization. So that's really exciting for us once once, once that customer has their training down there like Okay, look, get I need a cluster now, like I need a destroyer of sorts and criminals itself is great, but it needs a lot of pieces to actually get it ready for prime time. And that's where we build a product called Convoy Say Okay, here is your enterprise great. Ready to go kubernetes destro right out of the box. And that product is really it's what you could use to just fiddle around with communities. It's also what you put into production right on the game. That's that's been scale tested, security tests and mixed workload tested. It's everything. So that's that's kind of our communities. Destro. So you've gotten your training. You have your destro and now you're like, OK, I actually wanna want to run some applesauce. >>Let me hold there. Is it Is it open corps? Or, you know, there's a lot of conversation in the way the boys actually >>the way we built convoy. It's a great question. The way we build convoys said, Okay, we don't We want to pick the best of breed from each of these. Have you seen the cloud native ecosystem kind of like >>by charter, high charter, whatever it is, where they have all the logos and all the different spiral thing. So it's crazy. Got thousands of logos, right? And >>we said, Look, we're gonna navigate this for you. What's the best container run time to pick. And it's It's almost as if we were gonna build this for ourselves using all open source technology. So convoys completely opens. Okay, um, there's some special sauce that we put in on how to bring these things together. Install it. But all the actual components itself is open source. Okay, so that's so if you're a customer, you're like, OK, I want open source. I don't want to be tied to any specific vendor. I want to run on Lee open. So >>yeah, I was just thinking in terms of you know, how Duke is a reference right. And you had, you know, the Horton worst cloud there and map our strategies, which were radically different in the way they actually packaged told a dupe under the covers. Yeah, >>you can think of it similar. How Cloudera per ship, Possibly where they had cdh. And they brought in a lot of open source. But they also had a lot of proprietary components to see th and what we've tried to get away from it is tying someone in tow. Us. I know that sounds counterintuitive from a business perspective, but we don't want customers to feel like if I go with D to like you. I always have to go with me to like you. I have to drink the Kool Aid, and I'm never gonna be able to get off. >>Kind of not. Doesn't really go with the open source. Exactly this stuff. It's not >>right for our customers, right? A lot of our customers want that optionality, and they don't want to feel locked in. And so when we built convoy, he said, Look, you know, if we were to start our own company, not not an infrastructure coming that we are right now, but just a software company build any kind of ab How would we approach it? And that was one of the problems we saw for We don't wanna feel like we're tied into any. >>Right. Okay, so you got to get the training, you got the products. What's >>next? What's next is if you think about the journey, you're like, OK, a lot. What we've found and this may or may not be totally true is one of the first things people like to run on committees is actually they're builds. So see, I see. And we said, How can we help with this. We looked around the market and there's a lot of great see, I see products out there right now. There's get lab, which is great partner of ours. It's a great product. There's there's your older products. Like Jenkins. There's a bunch of sass products, Travis. See all these things. But what we we wanted to do if we were customers of our own products is something that was native to Kubernetes. And so we started looking at projects like tectonic and proud. Some of these projects, right? And we said, How can we do the same thing we did with convoy where we bring these projects together and make it easy for someone to adopt these kubernetes native. See, I see tools. And we did some stuff there that we think is pretty innovative as well. And that's what that's the product we call dispatch. >>Okay. What do you got? More than just products. You've got profession service. That's right. So now >>you need help setting all this up. How do you actually bring your legacy applications to this new platform? How do you get your legacy builds onto these new build systems That that's where our service is coming the plate and kind of steer you through this whole journey. Lastly, what we next in the journey, though? Those service's compliment Really? Well, with with the kind of the rest of the product suite, right? And we didn't just stop with C i c. He said, what is the next type of work that we want to run here? Okay, so there we looked at things like red hat operators. Right? And we said, Look, red hats doing really cool thing here with this operator framework, how can we simplify it? We learn we've done a lot of this before with D. C. O s, where we built what we called the DCS sdk to help people bring advanced complex workloads onto that platform. And we saw a lot of similarities with operators to our d c West sdk. We said, How can we bring some of our understanding and knowledge to that world? And we built this open source product called kudo. Okay, people are free to go check that out. And that's how we bring more advanced workload. So if you think about the journey back to the journey again, you got some training you have your have your cluster, you put your builds on it. Now you want to run some advance work logs? That's where Kudo comes. >>Okay? And then finally, at the end of the trail is 1 800 I need help. Well, almost into the trail. We're not there yet. There was one thing they're still moving with one more step right on >>the very last one. Actually, we said, Okay, what's next in this journey? And that's running multiple clusters of the same. Okay, so that's kind of the scale. That's the end of the journey from for us, for our proxy as it stands right now. And that's where you build a product called Commander. And that's really helping us launch and manage multiple >>companies clusters at the same time. >>So it's so great that you have the perspective of a customer and you bring that directly in two. You know what you want because you just have gone through this this journey. But I'm just curious, you know, if you put your old hat on, you know, kind of c i o your customer. You know, you just talked about the cake chart with Lord knows how many logos? How do you help people even just begin to think about about the choices and about the crazy rapid change in what? That I mean? Kubernetes wasn't a thing four years ago to help them stay on top of it to help them, you know, both kind of have a night to the vision, you know, make sure you're delivering today on not just get completely distracted by every bright, shiny object that happens to come along. Yeah, no, >>I think it's really challenging for the buyers. You know, I think there's a, especially as the industry continues to make sure there's a new concept that gets thrown at all times. Service Manager. You know, some new, cool way to do monitoring or logging right? And you almost feel like a dinosaur. If you're not right on top of these things to go to a conference in, are you using? You know, you know B P f. Yet what is that? You didn't feel right? Exactly. I think I think most importantly, what customers want is the ability what, the ability to move their technology and their platforms as their business has the need. If the need isn't there for the business, and the technology is running well. There shouldn't be a reason to move to a new platform. Our new set of technologies, in fact, with dese us with Mason charities. To us, we have a lot of happy customers that are gonna be moving crib. Amazing if they wanted to anytime soon. Do you see What's that? Something's that criminal is currently doesn't do. It may never do because the community is just not focused on it that DCS is solving. And those customers just want to see that will continue to support them in the journey that they're on with their their business. And I think that's what's most important is just really understanding our customer's understanding their business, understand where they wanna go. What are their goals, So to say, for their technology platforms and and making sure you were always one step ahead >>of them, that's a >>good place to be one step ahead of demand. All right, well, thanks for for taking a few minutes and sharing the story. Appreciate it. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Chandler. I'm Jeff. You're watching >>the Cube. Where? Day two. I >>Q in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> Announcer: Live From Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering Dell EMC World 2017. Brought to you by Dell EMC. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in Las Vegas for Dell EMC World 2017. This is The Cube, I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Paul Gillin. And our next guest Manuvir Das, Senior Vice President of Product Management, Dell EMC, former Microsoft Asure, historic role at Microsoft, been at the EMC for a few years. Welcome to The Cube, good to see you. >> Thank you, it's nice to be here. >> So the last year we had a conversation. We were talking about some of the technology and the kind of direction it was going, so first question is from last year to this year, what's changed and what's the news? >> We've brought together two pretty well-known platforms that we did, Isilon for Scalar file and ECS for Scalar object. It one team that are now around called the Unstructured Data Storage Team. And we've done this really big because from the point of view of the customer, what we see is this confluence between file and object really in the space of unstructured storage, and we think we have some ideas of how to put that together in just the right solution for the customer. So that's why we brought these teams together and we've got a lot of great stuff to talk about this year. >> How are you positioning file versus object right now? It seems like object is the rage, but file is still going to be around for a long time. How do you position that? >> Yes, I think it will be. I think basically, if I may, it's not just two, but we see three pillars of unstructured storage. The first is file, which is really more towards compatibility with traditional workloads. A lot of the application ecosystem is comfortable programming against NFS or SMB, and that ecosystem is going to remain for a long time. For instance, in the space-like video surveillance. So that's where we see file. It's optimized more for performance rather than Scale, although you do get Scale. The next level was really object, which is more for your modern workloads, for your web and mobile sort of workloads. Optimized more for Scale rather than performance. And then, the third pillar that we see that we'd be working on now is really realtime data, or what you call streaming data, from things like IOT, where you're getting a firehose of information coming out and you got to store it very, very quickly. So we see these are three different pillars of unstructured storage. And really, what we've been working on in our Unstructured Data Storage Team is how to bring all of these three together in the right solution for the customer. >> So tell us about the group that you're in because this is kind of a new, not new industry, we're talking about unstructured data for many years, going on eight years, but it's becoming super important now as you have this horizontal data fabric development. We talked a little bit about it last year, but you can see a clear line of sight now with apps using data very dynamically. So you need under-the-hood storage, but now you need addressability of data. And so, there's a challenge of getting the right data from the right database to the right place on the app in less than a hundred milliseconds. I mean, that's like the nirvana. >> So I think there's a couple of things happening. Firstly, the advances in hardware have changed the game a fair bit, because you can take a software stack that was not optimized for latency to begin with, you can put it on all Flash hardware and you can reduce the roundtrip a lot, that's one thing. The other thing I see is that especially with the advancement of object >> For the stage of life in IT, you have research background, PhD in Computer Science, I mean, it's a pretty awesome time to be in computer science right now. There's a ton of opportunity that applies from that. Machine learning, all this goodness there. What's your vision of how the next 30 years are going to play out? Because Michael Dell said, "Hey, it's been 33 years," since he's started the company, the next 33 are going to be amazing, and I believe that to be true as well given the science opportunities. How do you look at this, from a personal level and also from a Dell EMC? >> I think what's really going to change is, up 'til now, a lot of things that have been done with computing have started with the thought of, "How much data can I really have?" And then, once I've decided how much data I can really have, what am I going to do with it? And I think sort of the innovation that's happened in storage that I'm a part of, what has really changed is it said, "You don't have to stop and think "about how much data you're going to have." You can just keep all of it. And so, what that means is I don't have to figure out upfront what I'm going to do with this data. I'm just going to bring it all in, it's going to be really cheap, the systems are really scalable that can hold it, and everything is sort of tagged in such a way that after the fact, five years from now, I can go do something with this data that I hadn't envisioned when I brought it in. And I think that just opens up a range of things that were hard to imagine. The other thing I think is, >> Programmatically meaning, from a software standpoint. Discoverability, >> That's right, I think as you said, machine learning is a big part of it. Because I think machine learning unlocks opportunities to mind the data that people hadn't really thought of before. And it comes back to the same thing that when I bring data in, whether it's from sensors or aircraft engines or what have you, I have no idea what I'm going to do with the data, so I have no idea which part of the data is important and which part of the data is less important. But when I can apply things like machine learning after the fact, I don't actually have to worry about that. I just bring it all in, and the algorithms themselves will figure out which part of the data is the useful part of the data. >> Your ScaleUp product line and ScaleOut product line, how are you positioning those two application-wise to your customers? >> So I think there is distinction between tier one storage and tier two storage. I think when you think about tier one storage, it's not just about the numbers, like latency and IOPS, but it's about the whole experience of tier one storage. Do I have, for my disaster recovery, do I have RPO-0, which means I can recover to the exact point in time I was at when I failed over data center. How does my replication work, what data services that I have? So I think our ScaleUp technologies are very well oriented towards the tier one kind of capabilities. And then our ScaleOut technologies are very well oriented towards sort of the ubiquitous tier two storage, which is much more deployable at Scale. It's pretty good performance in two, actually, but not with that complete set of capabilities you think about with tier one in terms of RPO-0s, synchronist replication, those kinds of things. So I think there's a very natural sort of mace between the two. And really, I think from a storage vision, what we see is the tier two storage is so scalable and so cheap, that all of your bools of tier one storage on the top tier down automatically into the tier two storage. And what that means is for our customers, if you think about how much tier one storage they have to provision today, they should be able to provision less of that, because they should be able to tier more of that down to the tier two storage, which is now capable enough to hold the rest of the data. >> And be available. >> And be available, >> Okay so, customers want to do this, a no brainer. So when we hear Amazon talk about this all the time, Jeff Bezos was just talking about just the other day a new chassis, they've got the recognition software so you see facial recognition, a lot of great stuff happening all over the Cloud world with this kind of modeling, with the power of computes that's available. What are the customers do now? Because now they get it, it's a no brainer obviously. Now they've got to change how they did IT 30 years to be agile for tomorrow. What's the playbook? >> So what we're seeing is, the step one that we're seeing more and more today, and have seen really for the last couple of years with Isilon and with DCS, is what I would call Consolidation of the Tier Two. So where we had 12 different clustered silos of storage for the different use cases, let's buy into this model that I can just build one large storage cluster, and it can handle the 12 different use cases at the same time. And that's what we've been proving out for the last few years. I think customers have really, enterprise customers are really getting there. And now, what we're beginning to see this year is the next phase, whether it's the industrial internet with the automotives, et cetera, the more IOT style use cases. In fact, on Wednesday, we'll be talking about a new thing we've got called Project Nautilus, which is the third leg of our stool with the streaming storage that is built on top of Isilon and ECS. And we're now at the point where are first customers are beginning to work with that, where they're saying, "From my sensors, "in the automobiles, on the cameras, "I'm going to bring in this firehouse of data, "I'm going to store it all with you, "but later on, I'm going to do analytics on it. "As it's coming in, I'm going to do "some real-time analytics on it, "and then after the fact, I'm going to do "the more batch style." >> I know Paul Scott wants to jump in, but I want you to just back up because I missed the three pillars. >> The three pillars were file, for which we have Isilon, object for your modern applications and web workloads, for which we have ECS, and then streaming storage for IOT. >> Which is Nautilus? >> Which is Project Nautilus, >> Okay, got it. >> The way I put it to people is traditional storage systems, ScaleUp or ScaleOut, file or object, they need resilience. So when you write the data, you have to write and think at the same time, because you have to record all kinds of information about it, you have to take locks, et cetera. For IOT, you need a storage system that writes now, and thinks later, so that you can just suck it all in. >> It sounds like an operating system. You've got a storage that's turning into like LUNs, provisioning, hardware. It's essentially intelligence software that has to compile, runtime, assembly, all this stuff's going on. >> And there's all these fancy names like LAN Architecture and all that kind of stuff. And what that's all saying is, "I bring the data in "and as it's coming in, "there's some things I already want to do with it, "I do that analytics in real-time. "There's other things when I go tag it, "who was in the photo, where was it, "and then the rest of it, I'm going to do later." And who knows what and when, and that's a beautiful thing. >> You're way along the thinking curve on this obviously, but where are your customers? I mean, you're talking about a pretty radically, different approach to processing and storing data even in realtime. Machine learning, meta tagging, there's a lot for them to absorb. >> And I think that part, it's a vertical driven, use-case driven thing. So there's some industries where we see a lot of uptake on that. Automotive is a great example. >> Financial services, >> Financial services, fraud detection, those kinds of things. And there's other verticals where it's not time for that yet. Like I said, healthcare is a great example. So in those verticals, we see more of just the storage consolidation, let me build one pool of tier two storage, if you will, and consolidate my 12 use cases sort of what we refer to as the Data Lake in our words, but I think it's specific verticals. And that's fine, if you look at even the traditional unstructured storage, I think it really started with certain verticals like media and entertainment, life sciences, and that's sort of where it kicked up from. And I think for the streaming storage, it's these verticals that are more oriented towards IOT, your automotive, your fraud detection, those kinds of things where it's really kicking off, and then it'll sort of broaden from there. >> How is this playing into the Dell server strategy? >> It's really a fantastic thing, I don't want to say so much for us as for our customer, because I've talked to a number of people in these verticals where the customer wants a complete solution for IOT. And what that means is number one: on the edge, do I have the right equipment with the right horsepower and the right software on the edge to bring in all the data from the edge and do the part of the processing that needs to be done right there on the edge of realtime, and then it has to be backed by stuff in the backing environment that can process massive amounts of data. And with Dell, we have the opportunity for the first time that we didn't have with the EMC alone to do the complete solution on both ends of it, both the equipment on the edge as well as the backing IT, so I think it's a great opportunity. >> You bring up so many awesome conversations because it's boring storage, now storage is not boring anymore because it's fundamental to the heartbeat of a company. >> Exactly. >> So here's a question for you, kind of like thinking out loud and riffing with you. So some debate, like, "Listen, I want to find "the needle in the haystacks, "but the haystacks are getting bigger," so there's a problem with that. I got to do more design and more gig digging, if you will. And the second point is customers are saying, to at least to us on The Cube and privately is, "I got a data lake that's turning "into a data swamp, "so help me not have swamps of data, "and I want more needles, "but the stack's getting bigger." What's your advice to those CXOs? Could be a CDO, chief data officer, a CS CISCO, these are the fundamental questions. >> I would say this, whatever technology you're evaluating, whether it's an on-premise technology or a hosted technology from a vendor like us, or it's a service out there in the Public Cloud, if you will, ask yourself two questions. One is, "If I size out what I need right now, "and I multiply it by 10 or 100, "what is it going to cost? "And is it really going to work the same way, "is it going to scale the same way?" Look at the algorithmics inside the product, not the Power Point and say, "The way "they've designed this thing, "when I put 100 times the data "on 100 times the number of servers "on this storage system, "are things actually going to work the same way or not?" >> So it's a scale question, kind of what are the magnitude thinking you need to kind of go out and size it up a bit. >> Because I see right now, the landscape is full of new technologies for storage, and a lot of them sound great and look great on the PowerPoint, and you go do a POC with four nodes or eight nodes, and you put Flash in there and it works really well. But the thing is, when you have 200 nodes of that, when you've got a 30 petabyte cluster and you've got to fail it over because your data center went down, how does that go? >> Well, it's also who's going to run it, too. You want less obstacles, not more, and you don't them to be huge, expensive developers. >> TierPoint, that's the other thing. We really don't talk to our customers in terms of storage acquisition costs anymore, we talk in terms TCO, total cost of ownership. You look at power, you look at cooling. >> That killed the Duke, basically, it was so hard to run and total cost of of ownership. Michael Dell was just on, I was interviewing Michael and I asked him like, "Where's the Cloud strategy?" I was just busting his chops a little bit, 'cause I know he's messaging, trying to get him off his messaging. But he made an interesting comment and metaphor. He goes, "Well John, I remember the days "during the internet days, where's you internet strategy?" Look where that happened, the bubble popped. But ultimately, everything played out as according to plan. There's pet food online, now we've got food delivery, DoorDash, all this stuff's happening. So he kind of was using it to compare to the Cloud today. There's a lot of hope and promise, where's your Cloud strategy? But yet, his point was it's going to be everywhere. >> Yeah, and I would say this, I think people sometimes confuse Cloud with Public Cloud. And I think what happened is, having that issue myself, I would say that Public Cloud exposed a certain model that had some benefits for the customer base that were new. That is, I can use as a service, I don't worry about operationalizing things, I can pay as I go, so I get that, it's elastic. But it also came with a lot of drawbacks. I don't have the kind of control that I would like to have. A normal thing that any person who takes a dependency on infrastructure has is, "Today's my Superbowl Sunday. "Don't touch my environment today." Now you go to a Public Cloud and you use a service that is used by thousands of other customers, so which day is Superbowl Sunday? Every day is Superbowl Sunday for somebody. >> It was a metaphor, Public cloud was a metaphor for virtualization that would effect the entire environment. >> And so, I think the journey we're all in, all the vendors, the Public Cloud suppliers, everybody is, "What are the right set of models "that are going to cover the space for all our customers?" There's not going to be one. There's several. I think the dedicated private Cloud models are certainly very appealing in a number of ways if you do the economics right. And I think that's the journey we're all on sort of together. >> I tweeted a little bit of the jewels out there this morning. True, Private cloud is going to be a $265 billion dollar market, but they were the first ones to actually size that, let's say true private public means essentially hybrid, but on-prem with a data center. That's huge numbers, it's not like rounding errors. >> We believe that, too. And that's why one of the neatest things we've announced this year with ECS object storage is something called ECS Dedicated Cloud, which is basically saying, "You can take the object storage "from us, but it's going to run in our data centers." We operate it, it's actually the developers who wrote the code from my team who are actually operating it, and you can do a variety of hybrid things. You can keep some of it on-prem, some of it off-prem, you can keep all of it off-prem. But regardless, it's your stuff. You can hug it, it's dedicated to you. You're not sharing the cluster with anybody else. You get to decided when you update your version, when you take a maintenance window or what have you. So, we're all searching for that sweet spot, if you will. >> I want to ask you about something, some of the different containers. The hottest thing right now in infrastructure, lack of persistent storage has been a real problem for containers. Is that a problem that's yours to solve or is it Docker's to solve? >> No, I think it is ours to solve with them. So, I'll say a couple of things. Firstly, our modern products, ECS and object storage as well as ScaleIO, our block ScaleOut storage, these are built with containers. So for instance, if you take ECS today, every ECS appliance that we ship, if you look inside very server, it's running Linux with Docker. And all the ECS code is running on Docker containers. That's just how it works. So A: we believe in containers, and two: I think we have been doing the work to provide that persistence ecosystem for containers using our storage. So we have a great team at Dell EMC called EMC Code. And these are people, they do a lot of this integration stuff, they work very closely with Docker and a number of the other frameworks to really plug our storage in. And I think it's a very open ecosystem. There are APIs there now, so you can plug anybody's storage in. And I think that's really if you compare VM-based infrastructures with container-based infrastructures. That's really the gap, because when you operationalize the stuff, you need things like that. You need persistent storage, you need snapshots, you need a VR-storage, you need those kinds of things, but I think that'll all come. >> Well, we're looking to continuing the conversation, I know time's tight. We'd like to follow up with you after the show, maybe bring you into our studio via Skype. You're in a hot area, you got the storage, you got the software, you got some Cloud action going on. Thank you very much for coming on The Cube, appreciate it. >> My pleasure for being here, thank you for having me. >> This is TheCube, live coverage here at Dell EMC World 2017. And I'm John Furrier with Paul Gillin, we'll be right back. Stay with us. (bright tech tones)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Austin, Texas at DockerCon 2017. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the two days of live broadcast, Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program, John Gossman, who is the lead architect with Microsoft Azure. Also part of the keynote this morning. John, had the pleasure of interviewing you two years ago. We went though the obligatory wait, Microsoft Open Source, Linux, and Windows and everything living together. It's like cats and dogs. But thanks so much for joining us again. >> Yeah well as I was saying, that's 14 years in cloud years. So it's been a lot of change in that time, but thanks for having me again. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You said it was three years that you've been working Microsoft and Docker together. 21 years in it, dog or cloud years, if you will. I think Docker is more whales and turtles, as opposed to the dogs. But enough about the cartoons and the animals. Why don't you give our audience just a synopsis of kind of the key messages you were trying to get across in the keynote this morning. >> Okay well the very simple message is that what we enabled this new technology, Hyper-V isolation for Linux containers, is the ability to run Linux containers just seamlessly on Windows using the normal Docker experience. It's just Docker run, BusyBox or Docker run, MySQL, or whatever it is, and it just works. And of course if you know a little more technical detail about containers, you realize that one of the reasons that the containers are the way there are is that all the containers on a box normally share a kernel. And so you can run a Canonical, Ubuntu on user space, on a Red Hat kernel or vice versa. But Windows and Linux kernels are too different. So if you want to run Windows container, it's not going to run easily on Linux and vice versa. And you can still get this effect, if you want it, by also using a virtual machine. But then you've got the management overhead of managing the virtual machine, managing the containers, all the complexity that that involves. You have to get a VHD or AMI or something like that, as well a container image and you lose a lot of that sort of experience. >> John, first of all, I have to say congratulations to Microsoft. When the announcement was made that Windows containers were going to be developed, I have to say that I and most of my peers were a little bit skeptical as to how fast that would work; the development cycle. Probably because we have lots of experience and it's always okay, we understand how many man years this usually takes, but you guys hit and were delivering, got through the Betas, so can you speak to us about where we are with Windows containers? And one of the things people want to kind of understand is, compared to like Linux containers, how do you expect the adoption of that now that it's generally available to roll out? Do I have to wait for the next server refresh, OS refresh, how do you expect your customers to adopt and embrace? >> Well we were able to get this to work so quickly because if you remember, Docker didn't actually invent containers. They took a bunch of kernel primitives that were in Linux and put a really great user experience on it. And I'm not taking anything away from Docker by doing that, because oftentimes in the technology industry, it's easy to make something that was complicated, powerful, but not easy to use. And Windows already had a lot of those kernel primitives, same sort of similar kind of kernel primitives built-in. They had to take out Java javax, I think when Windows 2000. And so it was kind of the same experience. We took the Docker engine, so we got the API, we were using the open source project, so we have complete compatibility. And then we just had to write a basically a new back-end, and that's why it was able to come up rather quickly. And now we're in a mode you know, Windows server updates things more incrementally, than we did in the past. So this will just keep on improving as time goes on. >> Okay, one of the other big announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit. And it was open source project, we actually saw Solomon move it to open source during the keynote, when they laid out the ecosystems for it like IBM, HPE, INTEL and Microsoft. So what does that mean for Microsoft? You are now a provider of Linux? How are we supposed to look at this? >> Yeah. So we're working with all the Linux vendors. So if you saw our blog about the work we did today. We also have announcements from SUSE and Red Hat and Canonical, and the usual people. And one of the things I said in this box, I said look there's the new model is that you could choose both the Linux container that you want and the kernel that you want to run it on. And we're open to all sorts of things. But we have been working with Docker for a long time. On making sure that there was a great experience for running Docker for Linux on Windows. This thing called Docker for Windows. Which they developed. And we have been helping out. And that's basically an earlier generation of this same Linux technology. So it's just the next step on that journey. >> Microsoft's pretty well recognized to have a robust solution for a hybrid cloud. Cause of course you go your Azure stack, that you're putting on premises. There's Azure itself, it's really the cloud first methodology that you've been rolling through and you offer as a service. Containers really anywhere in your environment, baked in anywhere? How should we be thinking about this going forward? >> Yeah absolutely. I mean one of the points of containers in general, one of the attractive parts of containers is that they run everywhere. Including from your laptop, to the various clouds to bare metal, to virtualized environments. And so we have both things. We want Windows containers, where we're the vendor of the container. We want those to work everywhere. And we also, as the vendors of Azure and Azure Stack, and just server system center, and other older enterprise technologies. We want containers to work on all those things. So both directions. I mean, that's kind of the world we're in now, where everything works everywhere. >> Can you square you container strategy as reflected in your partnership with Docker, With your serverless computer strategy for Azure Functions? I'm trying to get a sense for Microsoft's overall approach to running containers as it relates to the Azure strategy. >> In some ways, you can think of this as a serverless functions mode as a step even further. You just deploy a hardware machine and install everything on it. Next thing, you'd have a virtual machine and you install everything. And then you put your code and all its affinities to the container. And with serverless with Azure Functions, it's like, well why do any of that? Just write a function. Now at the same time, we think there's lots of reasons. Under the covers, all of these past systems, going all the way back, that's how Docker started. Run a container underneath the covers. in the same place, it's not literally a Docker container, but the same place down in functions has that sort of a capability. And we're certainly thinking about how Docker can handle for work in that serverless model in the future. >> See one of my core focus areas for Wikibon as an analyst, is looking at developers going more deeply into deep learning and machine learning. To what extent is Microsoft already taking its core tools in that area and containerizing them and enabling access to that functionality through serverless APIs and functions and so forth in Azure? On the serverless stuff, I'm not on the serverless team. I'm not really qualified to explain everything on their end. I do know that the CNT team has a Docker container that they put the bits in. There's the Azure Machine Learning team who's been working a lot of these sort of technologies. I'm just not the right guy to answer that question. >> As you talk to your customers, where does this fit in to the whole discussion? Do containers just happen in the background? Is it helping them with some of their application modernization? Does it help Microsoft change the way we architect things? What's kind of the practitioner, your ultimate end user viewpoint on this? Well cloud adoption is at all points on the curve simultaneously. Even the inside of individual companies. So everybody's in it, in a kind of different place. The two models that I think people have really concentrated on, is on one end, the path at least is infrastructure where you just bring your existing applications and another one would be PADS, where you rewrite the application for a more modern architecture, more cloud centric architecture. And containers fit kind of squarely in the middle of that in some respects. Because in many ways and primarily, I see Docker containers as a better form of infrastructure. It is an easier, more portable way to get all your dependency together and run them everywhere. So a lot of lift-and-shift works is in there, but once you're in containers, it is also easier to break the components apart and put them back together into a more microservice oriented cloud-native model. >> I think that's a great point because we've been having this discussion about okay, there's applications that I'm rewriting, but then I've got this huge amount of applications that I need some way to have the bridge to the future, if you will. Because I don't know, there's one analyst firm that calls it bimodal, but to customers we talked to in general, we don't segment everything we do. I have application type infrastructure and I need to be able to live across multiple environments. Wrapping versus refactoring. >> And they do both. But I always prefer to, you know some people come in and they talk about legacy and they're developers. I'm a developer, right? Developers we always want to rewrite everything. And there's a time and place to doing that. But the legacy applications are required for those applications to work. And if you don't need to refactor that thing, if you can get it into a container or virtual machine or however, and get it into that more environment, and then work around it, re-architect it, it's a whole different set of approaches. It's a good conversation to have with a customer to understand. I've seen people go both too slow, and I see people refactor their whole thing and then try to figure out how to get it to work again. >> So Microsoft has a gigantic user base, What kind of things are you doing to help educate and help the people that had certification or jobs were running exchange to move towards this new kind of world and cloud in general. And containers specifically maybe. >> Well we have a ton of stuff. I'm not familiar with the certification programs myself, but we certainly have our Developer Evangelism team, out going out training people. We've been trying to improve our documentation. And we have a bunch of guidance on cloud migration and things like that. There is a real challenge and it's the same problem for our customers and anybody looking at cloud. Is to re-educate people who have been working in some of their previous moment. Which is another reason again, where the lift and shift stuff is, you can make it more like it is on Premise, or more like it is on your laptop. It makes that journey a little easier. But we're indefinitely in one of those points where the industry is changing so fast, I personally have to spend a lot of time, What's going on? What happened this day? What's new today coming to the conference, I learn new things. >> You bring up a huge challenge that we see. I kind of like Docker has their two delivery models. They've got the Community Edition, CE, and the Enterprise Edition, EE. An EE feels more like traditional software. It's packaged, it's on the regular release cycle. CE is, Solomon talked this morning about the edge pieces. Can I keep up with every six months, or can I have stuff flying at me? People inside of Docker can't keep up with the pace of change that much. What do you see, I mean, I think back to the major Windows operating system releases that we used to, like the Intel tick-tock on releases. It's the pace of change is tough for everyone, how are you helping, you know with you product development and customers, you know, take advantage of things and try to keep up with this rapidly changing ecosystem? >> This is a constant challenge with physically software now. We can't afford to only ever ship things every three years. And at the same time there's stability. So with the major products like Windows, we have these stable branches, where things are pretty much the same going along. And then there's an inactive branch Where things are coming down and the changes and the updates are coming. I'd say the one biggest difference I'd say, but you know I've been in this industry for a long time. So say between the '90s and now, is that we have so much of it is actually off servers. Where when something crashes, we get a crash dump and we can debug the thing and so going out in the field we have much more capability in finding what's going on in the customer base than we did 20 years ago. But other than that, it's just a really hard challenge to both satisfy people that can't have anything to change, and everything changing. >> John you've been watching this for a number of years, what do we still have left to do? We come back to DockerCon next year, you know, we'll have more people, it'll be a bigger event, but you know, what's the progression, what kind of things are you looking forward to the ecosystem and yourself and Docker, knocking down and moving customers forward with? >> The first year was kind of like, what is this thing? Second year was now, the individual Docker container is there now how do you orchestrate them and next step is how do we network these things. And there's an initiative now to standardize on storage, for storage systems and docker containers. Monitoring. There's a lot of things that are still to do. We have a long ways to go. On the other side, I think this other track, which we talked about today, which is that virtualization and containers are going to blur and mend, and I don't think that seven years from now we're going to be talking about containers or virtual machines, we're just going to be saying it's some unit of compute and then there's so much in knobs and tweaks that you want it a little more isolated, you want it a little less isolated, you trade off some performance for something else. >> Business capability, in other words the enterprise architecture framework of business capabilities, will be paramount in terms of composing applications or microservices. From what I understand you saying. >> Yeah, I think where we're really going to get to is a model where people we get past this basics of storage of networking and start working up the next level So things like Helm or DCS Universe, or Storm Stacks, where you can describe more of an application, it just keeps moving up. And so I think in seven years, we won't be talking so much about this, it'll some other disruption, right? But there won't be talking about this virtualization layer as much as building apps again. >> On a visual composition of microservices, what is Microsoft doing, you say that you long ago entered Microsoft during the Vizio acquisition, what's Microsoft doing to enable more visual composition across these functions, across orchestrated team-like environments going forward? >> I think there is some work going on. It's not my area again, on visual composition, despite the fact that I came from Vizio. I kind of got away from that space >> Well I'm betraying my age. I remember that period. >> All right. Well John, always a pleasure catching up with you and thank you so much for joining us for this segment. Look forward to watching Microsoft going forward. >> Thanks. Thank you for having me. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE.