(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018, Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stew Miniman here with theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. My co-host is John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program, we have Berna Devrim, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing of Platform at Red Hat. And we are thrilled to have a customer on, Nico Wellner, who's a Unix Systems Engineer with Finanz Informatik out of Germany. Thank you both so much for joining. Alright, Berna let's start with you. Just give, your first time on the program I believe, so a little bit about your background. You've been with Red Hat less than a year so tell us your role there. >> Yeah, yeah I've been at Red Hat for nine, 10 months now. I've very very excited to be here in the Open Source community development model. It's a very unique opportunity, as I've been leading the platform's marketing, which includes Red Hat Enterprise Linux, as well as Red Hat Virtualization, and Red Hat OpenStack platform, of course, which is why we are here at OpenStack summit. >> Great. We've got Rhel, and RHV, and RHOSP, and lots of other "LMNOP's." So Nico, give us a little bit about your background. Tell us about your organization and then lets get into the mini case study we'll do with you. >> It's an honor for me to be here. Thank you very much for this. I working for Finanz Informatiks, as you said, and it's a centralized IT service provider in the S Finance Group in Germany, for savings banks and state banks. We always have about 400 institutes. Savings banks, individual savings banks. On our systems we are supporting more than 120 million accounts, bank accounts, nearly half of them online accounts. We also develop the software for the savings banks for our customers, not savings banks only. Also, assurances and state banks. We operate the applications we developed previously. It's a huge and amazing company with a lot of different groups and systems. >> Well, we're really glad you could make it here. With GDPR banging down the door in just a couple of days we expect everybody in Europe to be pretty busy getting ready for that. Tell us your role inside the organization. What's your team do? Your title has Unix in it, so what's that entail? Give us the scope of what you cover. >> I'm assistant engineer, as you said and I'm working in the department. We are integrating and operating the Unix systems, which are AIX, we have a huge AIX, and why-mite and a huge Lenox, and why-mite in our data centers. On these Lenox systems, we started with OpenStack in 2014, with testing, and went into production in 2015, half a year later. We integrated OpenStack. We operated and served for our customers internally on the OpenStack platform. We host one of our core applications, it's the internet banking for our customers, as I said for about 50 millions account. We have multiple OpenStack Clouds. My department is responsible for the clouds and for operating them well. >> Nico I wonder if we step back for a second and what led to you going down this path. Was the company figuring out its cloud strategy? Obviously financial institutions, we understand there's governance, compliance, security is a huge concern. What does Cloud mean to your team? What led you to OpenStack? Let's start with kind of that problem statement that you had. >> Yeah, it was the main reason we introduced OpenStack was the time to market was our applications, it was our environment. And it's a plummet process. Took a long time normally and the environment. With OpenStack we could dramatically increase the time to deploy the systems from days or weeks to minutes. So we solved one huge problem with OpenStack. What was another reason was vendor lock-in. We wanted to avoid vendor lock-in. So we decided for OpenStack because it's a huge open source software, great community, and very stable, in our case. So it's OpenStack for us. >> So Berna, I've actually had the opportunity to interview quite a few Red Hat customers. I remember three years ago we were actually in the other hallway here talking to FICO about their role out of Red Hat OpenStack. I hear some similar themes, but you've got access to way more customers than I do. What are you hearing from customers in general? Is this kind of the typical? Is speed and agility at the top of the list when it comes to their Cloud environment? >> Exactly Stew, just like Nico said, actually. Our customers tell us all the time that it is about speed and agility. But it's also about different types of use cases and the workloads that they're actually looking at in their environments. Very popular ones, the use cases are. For example, scale-out IS, as well as they have test environments for the clouds needs applications, for example. Also we do see that big data analytics, NFV also. So there are many different types of use cases we see from our customers. We also have been hearing that they are actually using Open Shift on top of the Red Hat OpenStack platform. Majority of them are either deploying it or planning to deploy containers. So we do see a lot of different, but similar, aspects as well. >> Yeah. Nico have you started to go down that path with containers, Kubernetes, all that stuff yet? >> Not so far. We plan to do so. In general will use containers, we are planning to. But we already started the process, but it would take a little bit. I'm saying that we're not sure if start with OpenStack, containers on OpenStack or plain, but I think that with OpenStack could be a great way to do so. Because one of the reasons is our OpenStack environment is very reliable. This is important for us, very important for us and our customers. Over the years, as I said, since 2015 we had no outage due to OpenStack and the whole environment is great for us. >> That's great. So where are you now in your Red Hat OpenStack deployment? You have an OpenStack in production and now you're already a Red Hat customer in other products and you're now going out with Red Hat OpenStack platform, is that correct? >> Yes that's correct, yeah. >> I'm kind of curious. One of the conversations around OpenStack is the component nature of it and that many OpenStack deployments are different. So as you're now deploying Red Hat and you were already on OpenStack, are the skills transferable? Do you find the the processes transferable? Do you feel that this was a good investment, no up time for three years now and now you're moving to this new platform. Do you and your team feel like you're able to properly instrument and maintain and operate it? >> I think it's the best platform for us for infrastructure and management, Lenix and why-mite. We want to in-wolf it furthermore. >> Stew: And the skills will still transfer? The skills you've known for years will still transfer to the new OpenStack? >> Yes we have only a few people working actively on the design and the architecture, and operating for OpenStack. It's turned out that we could do fine with them. Now we have huge experience with OpenStack, feel comfortable with it. We are planning to increase the OpenStack environment, slightly I think. But scale out works great for us. The OpenStack itself, in our case, we could very flexible do a systems releases, which is one important thing for us. I think the OpenStack itself is the best platform for us and our application tools. >> That's great. Berna I was at Red Hat Summit and the interesting thing there for me was the portfolio, the breadth of portfolio, right? One of the messages was clear. You've always depended on Red Hat Enterprise Lenix, and that's still there and containers are Lenix. There was lot of multi-cloud talk and stuff like that, and OpenStack was part of the mix. Can you talk a little bit about OpenStack as part of the Red Hat portfolio and what you all are bringing to the table, and how you're thinking of open shift on OpenStack and that sort of thing? >> Yeah, exactly. As you pointed out Red Hat is all about open hybrid cloud. Within that Red Hat OpenStack platform plays a big role, of course as you can imagine. What we are trying to do at OpenStack platform is to help our customers like Nico get towards the digital transformation. With that comes, again, the need for speed and agility. What we are enabling with OpenStack platform is we would like to call it powering the digital transformation through enabling our customers to accelerate their businesses by simplifying their applications and delivery as well as the services delivery, which then, of course, moves towards innovation, fast innovation at the speed of the business. At the same time, we are trying to enable IT teams to be empowered so that they can actually do the innovations at their own pace without worry, with all of the Red Hat portfolio, as you pointed out. Yeah. >> Nico, we'd love to hear your take on digital transformation. I think back, five years ago we were talking about financial institutions, oh well we need to go mobile. Well it's much more than that for most companies that I talk to. Do you consider a digital transformation in your company? How does that relate to what IT does to what the business does, to what your users need? >> It's one of our core tasks in our company to help our customers for digital transformation. Finanz Informatik itself sees itself to be the best partner for our customers to do this transformation. With leading technologies like OpenStack and a special case was Red Hat OpenStack, of course, which is a product which enables us to be flexible, secure, and fast with our environment, and to drive this process of digital transformation in the S Finance Group, Savings Finance Group. >> Alright, so you've been at this for three or four years now with OpenStack, I'd love to get what learnings you've had for peers of yours that might be earlier in their journey. What have you learned? What advice might you give them? Let's start there. >> Overall I would say the OpenStack environment is very reliable. More reliable as I thought at the beginning. But it's turned out it's really good. From the automation perspective it's a really nice, let's say tool, for our environment. I found OpenStack is a great project with a lot of software components you can combine. We have a flexible platform. We can add some components we do not have today, but are part of OpenStack community of OpenStack product at all, to enable additional functionalities to the environment, let's say for containers, for object solid, and something like that, and new services for our customers to decrease the time to market. >> Okay. One of the things that this show we're seeing is looking beyond where we've been. I think the keynote this word, people are asking to do more and in more places. Everything from containers, and edge, and server lists, and the like. What's interesting you these days as you look down the road? Different technologies that are in your roadmap in the future, inside or outside OpenStack? >> For our company, we are in the process to integrate new needs for our customers and we are planning to do a lot of big data. Maybe OpenStack could be part of the white platform forward for the future we are planning. I think it will be much more diverse in future because right now we do have one application running on it, one co-application. It's a co-application where we partnered for us. But we will maybe will spread it or enable it for other applications, because of the great experience we've made with it. >> Nico and Berna, thank you so much for giving us the updates on where you stand with OpenStack and all of your deployment. We'll be back here with lots more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver for John Troyer. I'm Stew Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

okay welcome back everyone we're here live in monaco for siliconangle thecube's coverage of the monaco crypto summit i'm john furrier your host we're here with al berger the founder of the digital bits blockchain digital bits is presented it's an open ecosystem they're the main presenters bringing everybody together al burgia is the man of the hour al great to see you cube alumni great to see you again john thanks thanks for having me back on the show it's been this is an inaugural event yeah you you and your team put together the digital bits foundation um the digits blockchains enabling technology the proof is in the pudding as i always say now you're seeing companies building on top of the ecosystem why monaco this is inaugural event what's going on here what's the motivation what does all this mean all this stuff coming together share uh why monaco i mean there's uh it's part of this next chapter for us things are happening in monaco and and um um we've yet to unveil that and we thought you know what better place to unveil what we're doing in monaco other than to do it in monaco so that was really the genesis of what gave birth this idea to have the monaco crypto summit um but that evolved beyond just sharing the nexus of it all there are organizations that here that have come from all over the world and will be sharing for the first time how they're also utilizing the digital bits watching not bad to come to monaco in the summer though it's pretty pretty nice area beautiful views yeah summer time in monaco is always great but this inaugural event first of all i love the name so congratulations on the name i think it's got a lot of legs to it i think this will be something that's going to be around for a long long time so it's a good good call there there's a lot of other dynamics going on prince albert's got some involvement he's interested in crypto we're going to hear more about that in the yacht club presentation later tonight you got startups companies building on top of the capabilities of digital bits you know you and i have talked in the past on the cube about the technology um your technologists uh followed a lot of your adventures to success and exits multiple exits in tech silicon valley knows you everyone knows you know around the world it's kind of like a cloud game but it's decentralized you've got infrastructure platform applications um there's super applications and decentralized device to all kinds of new stuff going on so you have a stack kind of going on here in a decentralized way and been validated by all the big names jumping in and changing their business models and horowitz you name it now a global financial markets converging on this huge opportunity around crypto and d-apps everything's happening so what's your reaction to someone who's been through many cycles built companies and sold them and been successful what's your analysis i mean this journey is then different and you has a unique some similarities but definitely some unique characteristics in prior journeys uh in in you know venturing off to found a company and so forth and for me it's been obviously the traditional way um you know prior to this obviously it was in the valley and and had uh uh quite the journey um what i would say this time is um with all that's happening in blockchain and cryptocurrency it's the amount of say capital formation the amount of people involvement in into an early technology into an evolving technology and there's various subcategories now across nfts metabours and um and all things fungible um there's a global stage immediately and um and it sort of creates these sort of mini vortexes of getting more people involved um it's it's kind of some semblances of like the dot-com bubble in a sense but with a much bigger ecosystem um in comparison to what we saw in the 90s um the thing about blockchain is that it it needs to the more successful blockchains out there need to evolve into becoming as decentralized as possible and so as to use your analogy of stack i mean it is incredibly important to have contributors at all layers protocol layer application d app layer in many corners of the world but it all starts with an idea so it's really hard to go from point a to point b um like any other new opportunity and so for us it's been a journey we're evolving in this next chapter um and a lot of that will be evident today throughout the course of the summit we'll start to see and start to feel even more so how uh the digitalbits ecosystem is is becoming more and more decentral we're going to see a bunch of folks coming on us off stage are going to come here sit down on thecube and chat with me about their opportunities how would you describe for the folks watching now what's going on on stage here all day and then obviously there's a vip gala tonight at the yacht club with prince albert in attendance and his team and a bunch of big power players what's happening here what's the what's the vibe what's the purpose what's being presented can you just quickly share uh take a minute to explain what's going on so relative to to the summit um it's you know organizations uh platforms um there's there's uh a few metaverse uh platforms here that will be um i mean they've been in in existence but they'll be unveiling um their connection and how they're leveraging the digital business watching for the very first time and so um but also other categories as well even um soon here massive multi-billion dollar real estate development all coming to um the digital blockchain so this is the physical world massive uh resort um real estate development completely being tokenized you just had some success in digital assets obviously the roma team i saw the announcement on on youtube was pretty big um you get digital bits on the jersey a new player so caught my attention you got sports teams you got here you got applications people building on top of digital bits why for us it yeah vision is needs to be supported by a strategy um from inception it was finding ways to take an enterprise go to market strategy and and uh some of it may be a bit of trial and error in the early you know onset from 2017-18 when it when the journey kind of began for the digital biz blockchain but um also part of it is timing and one of the things that we saw more recently again kind of like the journey and the stack you're referring to before nobody foresaw the pandemic nobody foresaw that the whole world would be at home staring at a screen um and figuring out what to do with their time and many of the world for the first time began to learn about blockchain and cryptocurrency for the first time in the onset of this pandemic and so that became a huge accelerant for the space and so um another quote you know i've i'll take away from you that i you know recall you saying many years ago um you need to have a horse on the track to be in the race yeah we're very fortunate to have a horse in the track by having already a number of years of development um awareness so that when there's kind of like these market shifts that can become an accelerant we're in a position to to move with the industry um and so it's been an incredible couple of years i mean it was great for you guys yeah and so there you know there's different contributors in the ecosystem some some that i'm affiliated with that have done things in the sports space um and other things that i'm not affiliated with there's a lot of things that again are emerging today that are happening in different categories or themes of metaverse for example um and i'm humbled by it just simply by the virtue of the fact that they're utilizing the digital that's watching but i had no um stake in building what they've built in terms of this is enabling technology so just to kind of pivot off you said yeah the pandemic was a tailwind now for um this movement for many reasons one people sitting at home boy hey this is technically vegas work on the blockchain two the future of work or the future of how things are organized is was remote work remote work is like next door neighbor to decentralization like i mean come on you're talking about people going this is not the future is not where it used to be that kind of galvanized a lot of people and also the business models have shifted so now post pandemic everything's hybrid which is virtual physical so that's the perfect storm so total acceleration agree um and we're seeing the traction now what's interesting about what you guys are doing is you're enabling people to build apps on it that's the platform and and that's that's again what i want to ask you is i had people always ask me what's digital bits so i'm going to ask you what is digital bits well digital bits is both the name of a blockchain it's also the name of a cryptocurrency the native cryptocurrency of the digital bits blockchain and so um it began 2017 as a fork of stellar in terms of the original repository um and you know there's a question i was asked earlier today in a press conference of like oh there's all these blockchains well we're still in this like early stage uh this early part of this uh evolution and so i i don't necessarily see a lot of what's happening out there as competitive but rather complementary because in unison you know there's different use cases different categories uh where kind of a blockchain can find its array of adoption in in this sort of phase of it all um for us um we've been referred to as a few different things one of which is you know the aspiration become this blockchain for brands i think today we'll learn that it's become much bigger than that in terms of its capability it's not necessarily that um it's as a result of new technology it's the tech a lot of this technology has been there it's just how it's being exploited and used um we're unveiling today for example and part of now this chapter for me is working with um community um developers hold on before you get there so okay i see digital bits i love the name by the way so thanks for that you kind of get to the news now you have a press conference take me through the press conference what's the news what are you guys announcing here today so the press conference we we did share not everything uh there's more um uh likely in store by the end of today that's not on the agenda uh and and maybe i'll be back on the show later today um we will have you back we'll find out come on but in terms of in terms of what we shared so far at the press conference um uh it was centered around two key themes i wanted to um obviously talked about the array of things to come today but focus on some of the things i'm directly involved in one of which was nico swap and the other are the number of things involved here within monaco so in terms of nico swap um by way of nane nico and in the spirit of decentralization nico in ancient greek means victory for the people so we thought that was a fitting name for the platform it's a decentralized exchange platform on uh the digital bits blockchain um filled with liquidity pool technology automated market making technology it's it's but by way of comparison digital bits is version of let's say a uniswap but lower cost faster and so forth and there's a number of organizations here today that will uh are announcing that they're deploying on nicos bringing their token to the digital bits blockchain and and launching um on on nicoswap so we're i'm super excited about that this is you know part of evolution and part of fostering decentralization um and so what that enables is by virtue of uh being able to again help helping other organizations getting their horse on the track the common denominator for us is digital bits it's um you know the fact that every application every utility token every nft you know does require digital bits including the digital bits currency to provide that security to to be used for gas fees and and and so on and so forth so um the blockchain itself the cryptocurrency it's kind of a common denominator beneficiary uh the one way you can kind of think of it um but yeah we shared a lot around an ecoswap um uh what it looks like and um its key functionality and and who are some of the organizations that are uh on on board day one the other part of the press conference today we shared um was more monaco centric digital bits in monaco and this journey is just beginning uh it's super humbling it's super exciting for me to be a part of it um there is again no real particular order there's a an ecampus that's focused around cyber security and blockchain education for both private sector and public sector so um academia so skills government issues solve some skill gap correct right it's an organization a financial institution a whole department needs to know more about blockchain how they can leverage it um digitalbits um is the blockchain um that is forming the first part of the curriculum for this ecampus that's launching here in monaco with uh uh an organization called amvini the other thing uh that we shared and announced uh today is that um the first sov first and only sovereign cloud in europe is the monaco cloud as recently launched what makes it soft and in essence is a few aspects of its characteristics but digital bits blockchain nodes are being deployed in the monaco cloud um and so beyond the nodes that already exist it's um the network is further being let's say hardest to bring your scale in resiliency you know the whole thing around censorship resistance right the more nodes there's a huge strategic aspect to obviously deploying nodes in in sovereign clouds um and so in europe the first for that is the monaco cloud so we're really honored to be working with the team there and mvne and so forth for that and then um and then as well um a number of months ago we began a journey with the prince albert of monaco foundation um the the chair president is uh prince albert and um the uh vice president ceo is olivia windham who was in attendance at the uh at the press conference as well and um and we unveiled um the foundations uh platform entirely built on the digital bits blockchain uh utilizing the digital bits cryptocurrency um as well as uh nft ticketing and so forth uh so we unveiled that we showcased that for uh for members of the press um how it will be used and and so forth some of the questions you got um i mean it went everywhere from um there was a regulatory regulation question related to europe um to questions around decentralization what are what are we doing how do we compare to uh proof of work you know why why digital bits a big part of that is i think we have a lot of common values with um the foundation of prince albert foundation uh around the environment being eco-friendly and so on and so forth and so um um questions of that sort you know how what do you know what's the next chapter look like and and how how um is more and more decentralization in my view going to be fueled and you said you got some announcements you can't talk about um coming okay so is that what's that going to be related to you get a little bit of teaser on that is it going to be something how big we be massive is it the grand finale or is it it's not a finale the unveiling it's an op unboxing of a new deal what's what's what is it a deal is it technology um it is uh um it's it's um large uh organization um that um is is leveraging uh both um the digital bits watching and digital body swerve that one okay good well al thanks for coming on and congratulations we will catch up with you either at the end of the day here on the live program or we will be at the yacht club in monaco yacht club tonight for the big event we hope to be live there but if not we will report on that yeah thanks for having me john all right congratulations digital [ __ ] really rocking the world here in monaco love the name digital bits makes tons tons of sense platform to enable applications this is the future you're going to start to see this decentralized model that kind of looks like cloud computing but not it's a technology enabling the creative and the and and the application transformations to decentralization it's coming almost every single category will be centralized we'll be covering a blanket on the cube i'm john furrier thecube thanks for watching [Music] you

>> Okay. We're back here. theCube and all the action here in Mobile World Congress, cloud city, I'm John ferry, host of the cube. We've got a great remote interviews. Of course, it's a hybrid event here in the cube. And of course, cloud city's bringing all the physical face-to-face and we're going to get the remote interviews. Peter Adderton, founder, chairman, CEO of Mobile X Global. Nicholas Gerrard, founder and CEO of OxyGo. Gentlemen, thank you for coming in remotely onto the cube here in the middle of cloud city. You missed Bon Jovi last night, he was awesome. The little acoustic unplugged and all the action. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> All right, Peter and Nicholas, if you don't mind, just take a quick 30 seconds to set the table on what you guys do, your business and your focus here at Mobile World Congress. >> So I'll jump in quickly. Being the Australian, I'll go first, but just quick by way of background, I founded a company called Boost Mobile, which is one of the, is now the fourth largest mobile brand in, in America. And I spent a lot of time managing effort in that, in that space and now launching Mobile X, which is kind of the first cloud AI platform that we're going to build for mobile. >> Awesome. Nicholas. >> So I'm a founder of a company called, Ox Fuel where we do is basically a telecommunity service platform for brands to basically incorporate telecom as part of their services and learn from their customers through what we call a telecom business intelligence. So basically making sense of the telecom data to improve their business across retail, financial services or in-demand economy. >> Awesome. Well, thanks for the setup. Peter, I want to ask you first, if you don't mind, the business models in the telecom area is really becoming, not just operate, but build and build new software enabled software defined just cloud-based software. And this has been a change in mindset, not so much a change so much in the actual topologies per se, or the actual investments, but as a change in personnel. What's your take on this whole cloud powering the change in the future of telco? >> Well, I think you've got to look at where the telcos have come from in order to understand where they're going in the future. And where they've come from is basically using other people's technology to try to create a differentiation. And I think that that's the struggle that they're going to have. They talk about wanting to convert themselves from telcos into techcos. I just think it's a leap too far for the carriers to do that. So I think we're going to see, you know, them pushing 5G, which you see they're doing out there right now. Then they start talking about open rand and cloud and, and at the end of the day, all they want to do is basically sell you a plan, give you a phone attached to that and try to make as much money out of you as they possibly can. And they disguise that basically in the whole technology 5G open rand discussion, but they really, I don't think care. And at the end of the day, I don't think the consumers care, their model isn't built around technology. The model is built around selling your data and, and that's their fundamental principle and how they do that. And I've seen them go through from 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G. Every G we see come out has a promise of something new and incredible. But what we basically get is a data plan with the minutes. Right? >> Yeah, yeah I totally right on. And I think we're going to get into the whole edge piece of what that's going to open up when you start thinking about what, what the capabilities are and this new stakeholders who are going to have an interest in the trillions of dollars on the table right now, up for grabs. But Nicholas wanted to get to you on this whole digital-first thing, because one of the things we've been saying on theCube and interviewing folks and riffing on is: If digital drives more value and there's new use cases that are going to bring on, that's going to enabled by software. There's now new stakeholders coming and saying, Hey, you know what? I need more than just a pipe. I need more than just the network. I need to actually run healthcare. I need to run education on the edge. These are now industrial and consumer related use cases. I mean, this is software. This is where software and apps shine. So cloud native can enable that. So what's your take on the industry as they start to wake up and say, holy shit, this is going to be pretty massive when you look at what's coming. Not so much what's going to be replatformed, but what's coming. >> Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's where I kind join Peter on this. There's been pretty significant, heavy innovation on the carrier side for, you know, if you think about it 30 years or so of like just reselling plans effectively, which is a virtual slice of the network that built. And all of a sudden they started competing against, you know, the heavyweights on the internet. We had, putting the bar really high in terms of, you know, latency in terms of expectation, in terms of APIs, right? We've we've heard about telecom APIs for 15 years, right? It's- nothing comes close to what you could get if you start building on top of a Stripe or a Google. So I think, it's going to be hard for a lot of those companies. What we do with our show is we try to bridge that gap. Right, we try to build on top of their infrastructure to be able to expose modern APIs, to be able to open up a programmatic interface so that innovators like Peter's are able to actually really take the user experience forward and start, building those specialized businesses across healthcare, financial services, and whatnot. >> Yeah, David Blanca and I were on the, on theCube yesterday talking about how Snowflake, a company that basically sits on top of Amazon built almost nothing on the infrastructure. Built on top of it and was successful. Peter, this is a growth thing. One of the things I want to get your thoughts on is you've had experiences in growing companies. How do you look at the growth coming into this market, Peter, because you know, you got to have new opportunities coming in. It's a growth play too. It's not just take share from someone. It's net new capabilities. >> Yeah. Here's the issue you've got with the wireless industry is that there's only a very few amount of them that actually have that last mile covered. So if you're going to build something on top of it, you're going to have to deal with the carrier, and the carrier as out of like a duopoly slash monopoly, because without their access to their network, you're not going to be able to do these incredible things. So I think we've got a real challenge there where you're going to have to get the carriers to innovate. Now you've got the CEO of Deutsche Telekom coming out yesterday saying that the OTT players aren't paying their fair share. Right, and I sit back and go, well, hang on. You're selling data to customers who basically are using that data to use apps and OTT. And now he's saying, well, they should pay as well. So not only the consumer pay, but now the OTT players should pay. It's a mixed message. So what you're going to have to do, and what we're going to have to do as a, as a growth industry is we're going to have to allow it to grow. And the only way to do that is that the carriers are going to have to have better access, allow more access to their networks, as Nico said, let the APIs has become more available. I just think that that's a leap too far. So I think we're going to be handicapped in our growth based on these carriers. And it's going to take regulators and it's going to take innovation and consumers demanding carriers, do it, otherwise, you know, you're still going to deal with the three carriers in your world. >> Yeah, That's interesting about- I was just talking to Danielle Royce, the DR here at TelcoDR. And she said, I was talking about ORAN and there's more infrastructure than needed. She said, oh, it's more software. I don't disagree with her. I do agree with it. But I also think that the ORAN points to, Nicholas, kind of this idea that there's more surface area to be had on the scale side. So standardizing hardware creates a lower fixed cost, so you can get some cost reduction. And then with standardized software, you get more enablement for hardened openness. I mean, open source is already proven. You can still be secure. And obviously Cloud was once said, could never be secure and most, is probably more secure than anything. What's your take on this whole ORAN commodity standardization mission- efforts? >> I think it's a, I mean, it goes along to the second phase, right? Of what the differentiation in telecom was, you know. Early on, specialized boxes that are very expensive. You know, that you, you, you, you get from a few vendors, then you have the transition over to a software. We lower the price, as you were mentioning. It can run on off the shelf hardware. And then we're in the transition, which is what Danielle is, is evangelizing, right. Transition towards the cloud and specifically the public cloud, because there's no such thing as a private cloud really. And, and so up and running is just another, another piece where you can make the Legos connect better effectively and just have more flexibility. And generally the, the, the game here is to also break the agenda when you- from, from the vendors, right? Because now you have a standard, so you don't necessarily need to buy the entire stack from, from the same vendors. You have a lot more flexibility. You know, you've probably followed the same debate that we've all seen, right. With a push against Huawei, for instance. Th-this is extremely hard for an operator, to start ripping out an entire vendor, because most of the time, they, they own the entire stack. But something like ORAN, now you can start mixing and matching with different vendors, but generally this is also a trend that's going to accelerate the move towards the public cloud. >> That's awesome. Peter, I want to get your thoughts because you're basically building on the cloud. And if you don't mind chime it in to kind of end the segment on this one point. People are trying to really get their minds around what refactoring means. And we've been saying, and talking about, you know, the three phases of, of waking up to the world. Reset your business, or reboot. Replatform to the cloud, and then refactor, which means take advantage of cloud enabled things, whether it's AI and other things. But first get on the platform, understand the economics, and then replatform. So the question, Peter, we'll start with you. What does refactoring actually mean and look like in a successful future execution or playbook? Can you share your thoughts, because this is what people want to get to because that's where the value will come from. That's where the iteration gets you. What's your take on this refactoring? >> Yeah, yeah. So I always, I mean, we're in the consumer business, so I'm always about what is the difference going to make for the consumer? So, whether you're, and when you look at refactoring and you look at what's happening in the space. Is what is the difference that's going to, what are the consumers going to see that's different and are they willing to pay for that? And so we can strip away the technical layers and we all get caught up in the industry with these buzzwords and terms, and we get, and at the end of the day, when it moves to the consumer, the consumer just sits there and says, so what's the value? How much am I paying? And so what we're trying to do at MobileX is, we're trying to use the cloud and we're trying to use kind of innovation into create a better experience for the consumer. One way to do that is to basically help the customer, understand their usage patents. You know, right now today, they don't understand that. Right if I asked you how much you paid for your mobile bill, you will tell me my cell phone bill is $150, but I'm going to ask you the next question How much data do you use? You go, I don't know, right? >> John: unlimited. >> And then I'd say why am I started- well you'd say limited, right. I will go. I'd go, I don't know. So I sit back and go, most customers are like you. You're basically paying for a service that you have no clear, no idea what you're getting. And it's designed by the carriers to scare you into thinking you need it. So I think we've got to get away from the buzzwords that we use as an industry and just dumb that down to what, what does that mean for a consumer? And I think that the cloud is going to allow us to create some very unique ways for consumers to interact with their device and their usage of that device. And I think that that's the holy grail for me. >> Yeah. That's a great point. And it's worth calling out because I think if the cloud can get you a 10X value at, at a reduction in costs compared to the competition, that's one benefit that people will pay for. And the other one is just, Hey, that's really cool. I want I'll, I value that, that's a valuable thing. I'll pay for it. So it's interesting that the cloud scale there, it's just a good mindset. >> Yeah. So it's always, I always like say to people, you know, I've spoken a lot to the Dish guys about what open rand is going to do and I keep saying to them, so what's the value that I'm going to get from a consumer. And they'll say, oh it's flexible pricing plans. They're now starting to talk about, okay, what the end product is of this technology. You look at ECM, right? ECM has been around for a long time. It's only now that we're to see ECM technology, get enabled. The carriers fought that for a long, long time. So there's a monumental shift that needs to take place. And it's in the four or five carriers in our counties. >> Awesome. Nicholas, what's your take on refactoring? Obviously, you know, you've got APIs, you've got all this cool software enabled. How do you get to refactoring and how do you execute through that? >> I mean, it's a little bit of a, what Peter was saying as well, right? There's the, the advantage of that point is to be, you know, all our stuff basically lives in the cloud, right. So it's opportunity to, to get that closer, you know, just having better latency, making sure that, you know, you're not losing your, your photos and your data as you lose your phone and yep. Just bet- better access in general. I, I think ultimately like the, the push to the cloud right now is it's mostly just a cost reduction. The back tick, as far as the carriers are concerned, right. They don't necessarily see how they can build that break. And then from there start interacting with the rest of the OTT world and, and, you know, Netflix is built on Amazon and companies like that, right? Like, so as you're able to get closer as a carrier to that cloud where the data lives, this is also just empowering better digital experience. >> Yeah I think that's where the that's, the proof point will be there, as they say, that's where the rubber will meet the road or proof is in the pudding, whatever expression. Once they get to that cost reduction, if they can wake up to that, whoa we can actually do something better here and make m- or if they don't someone else will. Right. That's the whole point. So, final question as we wrap up, ecosystem changeover. Lot more ecosystem action. I mean, there's a lot of vendors here at Mobile Congress, but real quick, Peter, Nicholas, your take on the future of ecosystem around this new telco. Peter, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, I look, I mean, it, it, again, it keeps coming back to, to, to where I say that consumers have driven all the ecosystems that have ever existed. And when I say consumers also to IOT as well, right? So it's not just the B to C it's also B to B. So look to the consumer and look to the business to see what pain points you can solve. And that will create the ecosystems. None of us bet on Uber, none of us bet on Airbnb. Otherwise we'd all be a lot richer than we are today. So none of us took that platform- and by the way, we've been in mobile and wireless and any kind of that space smartphone space for a long time. And we will miss those applications. And if you ask a CEO today of a telco, what's the 5G killer application, that's going to send 5G into the next atmosphere, they can't answer the question. They'll talk about drones and robotic surgeries and all things that basically will never have any value to a consumer at the end of the day. So I think we've got to go back to the consumer and that's where my focus is and say, how do we make their lives better? And that will create the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean, they go for the low hanging fruit. Low latency and, and whatnot. But yeah, let's, it's going to be, it's going to be, we'll see what happens. Nicolas your take on ecosystems as they develop. A lot more integrations and not customization. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think going back to, you know, again like 20- 20 years ago, the network was the product conductivity to the product. Today it's a, it's a building block, right? Something that you integrate that's part of your experience. So the same way we're seeing like conversions between telecom and financial services. Right? You see a lot of telcos trying to be banks. Banks and fintechs trying to be telcos. It's, it's a blending of that, right? So it, at the end of the day, it's like, why, what is the experience? What is the above and beyond the conductivity? Because customers, at this point, it's just not differentiated based on conductivity, kind of become just a busy commodity. So even as you look at what Peter is building, right, this, what is the experience above and beyond just buying a plan that I get out of it, or if you are a media company, you know, how do I pair my content or resolve real problems? Like for instance, we work a lot to the NBA and TikTok. They get into markets where, you know, having a video product at the end and people not being well-connected, that's a problem, right? So it's an opportunity for them to bring the building block into their ecosystem and start offering solutions that are a different shape. >> Awesome. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Both of you, both experienced entrepreneurs and executives riding the wave on the right side of history, I believe. Thanks for coming on theCube, I appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> If you're not riding the wave the right way, you're driftwood. And we're going to toss it back to the studio. Adam and the team, take it from here.

>>Hey, welcome to the live panel. My name is Brett. I am your host, and indeed we are live. In fact, if you're curious about that, if you don't believe us, um, let's just show a little bit of the browser real quick to see. Yup. There you go. We're live. So, all right. So how this is going to work is I'm going to bring in some guests and, uh, in one second, and we're going to basically take your questions on the topic designer of the day, that continuous integration testing. Uh, thank you so much to my guests welcoming into the panel. I've got Carlos, Nico and Mandy. Hello everyone. >>Hello? All right, >>Let's go. Let's go around the room and all pretend we don't know each other and that the internet didn't read below the video who we are. Uh, hi, my name is Brett. I am a Docker captain, which means I'm supposed to know something about Docker. I'm coming from Virginia Beach. I'm streaming here from Virginia Beach, Virginia, and, uh, I make videos on the internet and courses on you to me, Carlos. Hey, >>Hey, what's up? I'm Carlos Nunez. I am a solutions architect, VMware. I do solution things with computers. It's fun. I live in Dallas when I'm moving to Houston in a month, which is where I'm currently streaming. I've been all over the Northeast this whole week. So, um, it's been fun and I'm excited to meet with all of you and talk about CIA and Docker. Sure. >>Yeah. Hey everyone. Uh, Nico, Khobar here. I'm a solution engineer at HashiCorp. Uh, I am streaming to you from, uh, the beautiful Austin, Texas. Uh, ignore, ignore the golden gate bridge here. This is from my old apartment in San Francisco. Uh, just, uh, you know, keeping that, to remember all the good days, um, that that lived at. But, uh, anyway, I work at Patrick Corp and I work on all things, automation, um, and cloud and dev ops. Um, and I'm excited to be here and Mandy, >>Hi. Yeah, Mandy Hubbard. I am streaming from Austin, Texas. I am, uh, currently a DX engineer at ship engine. Um, I've worked in QA and that's kind of where I got my, uh, my Docker experience and, um, uh, moving into DX to try and help developers better understand and use our products and be an advocate for them. >>Nice. Well, thank you all for joining me. Uh, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here. And so for those of you in chat, the reason we're doing this live, because it's always harder to do things live. The reason we're here is to answer a question. So we didn't come with a bunch of slides and demos or anything like that. We're here to talk amongst ourselves about ideas and really here for you. So we've, we obviously, this is about easy CII, so we're, we're going to try to keep the conversation around testing and continuous integration and all the things that that entails with containers. But we may, we may go down rabbit holes. We may go veer off and start talking about other things, and that's totally fine if it's in the realm of dev ops and containers and developer and ops workflows, like, Hey, it's, it's kinda game. >>And, uh, these people have a wide variety of expertise. They haven't done just testing, right? We, we live in a world where you all kind of have to wear many hats. So feel free to, um, ask what you think is on the top of your mind. And we'll do our best to answer. It may, might not be the best answer or the correct answer, but we're going to do our best. Um, well, let's get it start off. Uh, let's, let's get a couple of topics to start off with. Uh, th the, the easy CGI was my, one of my three ideas. Cause he's the, one of the things that I'm most excited about is the innovation we're seeing around easier testing, faster testing, automated testing, uh, because as much as we've all been doing this stuff for, you know, 15 years, since 20 years since the sort of Jenkins early days, um, it it's, it seems like it's still really hard and it's still a lot of work. >>So, um, let's go around the room real quick, and everybody can just kind of talk for a minute about like your experience with testing and maybe some of your pain points, like what you don't like about our testing world. Um, and we can talk about some pains, cause I think that will lead us to kind of talk about what, what are the things we're seeing now that might be better, uh, ideas about how to do this. I know for me, uh, testing, obviously there's the code part, but just getting it automated, but mostly getting it in the hands of developers so that they can control their own testing. And don't have to go talk to a person to run that test again, or the mysterious Jenkins platform somewhere. I keep mentioning Jenkins cause it's, it is still the dominant player out there. Um, so for me, I'm, I'm, I, I don't like it when I'm walking into a room and there's, there's only one or two people that know how the testing works or know how to make the new tests go into the testing platform and stuff like that. So I'm always trying to free those things so that any of the developers are enabled and empowered to do that stuff. So someone else, Carlos, anybody, um, >>Oh, I have a lot of opinions on that. Having been a QA engineer for most of my career. Um, the shift that we're saying is everyone is dev ops and everyone is QA. Th the issue I see is no one asked developers if they wanted to be QA. Um, and so being the former QA on the team, when there's a problem, even though I'm a developer and we're all running QA, they always tend to come to the one of the former QA engineers. And they're not really owning that responsibility and, um, and digging in. So that's kind of what I'm saying is that we're all expected to test now. And some people, well, some people don't know how it's, uh, for me it was kind of an intuitive skill. It just kind of fit with my personality, but not knowing what to look for, not knowing what to automate, not even understanding how your API end points are used by your front end to know what to test when a change is made. It's really overwhelming for developers. And, um, we're going to need to streamline that and, and hold their hands a little bit until they get their feet wet with also being QA. >>Right. Right. So, um, uh, Carlos, >>Yeah, uh, testing is like, Tesla is one of my favorite subjects to talk about when I'm baring with developers. And a lot of it is because of what Mandy said, right? Like a lot of developers now who used to write a test and say, Hey, QA, go. Um, I wrote my unit tests. Now write the rest of the test. Essentially. Now developers are expected to be able to understand how testing, uh, testing methodologies work, um, in their local environments, right? Like they're supposed to understand how to write an integration tasks federate into and tasks, a component test. And of course, how to write unit tests that aren't just, you know, assert true is true, right? Like more comprehensive, more comprehensive, um, more high touch unit tests, which include things like mocking and stubbing and spine and all that stuff. And, you know, it's not so much getting those tests. Well, I've had a lot of challenges with developers getting those tests to run in Docker because of usually because of dependency hell, but, um, getting developers to understand how to write tests that matter and mean something. Um, it's, it's, it can be difficult, but it's also where I find a lot of the enjoyment of my work comes into play. So yeah. I mean, that's the difficulty I've seen around testing. Um, big subject though. Lots to talk about there. >>Yeah. We've got, we've already got so many questions coming in. You already got an hour's worth of stuff. So, uh, Nico 81st thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I think I definitely agree with, with other folks here on the panel, I think from a, um, the shift from a skillset perspective that's needed to adopt the new technologies, but I think from even from, uh, aside from the organizational, um, and kind of key responsibilities that, that the new developers have to kinda adapt to and, and kind of inherit now, um, there's also from a technical perspective as there's, you know, um, more developers are owning the full stack, including the infrastructure piece. So that adds a lot more to the plate in Tim's oaf, also testing that component that they were not even, uh, responsible for before. Um, and, um, also the second challenge that, you know, I'm seeing is that on, you know, the long list of added, um, uh, tooling and, you know, there's new tool every other day. Um, and, um, that kind of requires more customization to the testing, uh, that each individual team, um, any individual developer Y by extension has to learn. Uh, so the customization, uh, as well as the, kind of the scope that had, uh, you know, now in conferences, the infrastructure piece, um, uh, both of act to the, to the challenges that we're seeing right now for, um, for CGI and overall testing, um, uh, the developers are saying, uh, in, in the market today. >>Yeah. We've got a lot of questions, um, about all the, all the different parts of this. So, uh, let me just go straight to them. Cause that's why we're here is for the people, uh, a lot of people asking about your favorite tools and in one of this is one of the challenges with integration, right? Is, um, there is no, there are dominant players, but there, there is such a variety. I mean, every one of my customers seems like they're using a different workflow and a different set of tools. So, and Hey, we're all here to just talk about what we're, what we're using, uh, you know, whether your favorite tools. So like a lot of the repeated questions are, what are your favorite tools? Like if you could create it from scratch, uh, what would you use? Pierre's asking, you know, GitHub actions sounds like they're a fan of GitHub actions, uh, w you know, mentioning, pushing the ECR and Docker hub and, uh, using vs code pipeline, I guess there may be talking about Azure pipelines. Um, what, what's your preferred way? So, does anyone have any, uh, thoughts on that anyone want to throw out there? Their preferred pipeline of tooling? >>Well, I have to throw out mine. I might as Jenkins, um, like kind of a honorary cloud be at this point, having spoken a couple of times there, um, all of the plugins just make the functionality. I don't love the UI, but I love that it's been around so long. It has so much community support, and there are so many plugins so that if you want to do something, you don't have to write the code it's already been tested. Um, unfortunately I haven't been able to use Jenkins in, uh, since I joined ship engine, we, most of our, um, our, our monolithic core application is, is team city. It's a dotnet application and TeamCity plays really well with.net. Um, didn't love it, uh, Ms. Jenkins. And I'm just, we're just starting some new initiatives that are using GitHub actions, and I'm really excited to learn, to learn those. I think they have a lot of the same functionality that you're looking for, but, um, much more simplified in is right there and get hubs. So, um, the integration is a lot more seamless, but I do have to go on record that my favorite CICT tools Jenkins. >>All right. You heard it here first people. All right. Anyone else? You're muted? I'm muted. Carlin says muted. Oh, Carla says, guest has muted themselves to Carlos. You got to unmute. >>Yes. I did mute myself because I was typing a lot, trying to, you know, try to answer stuff in the chat. And there's a lot of really dark stuff in there. That's okay. Two more times today. So yeah, it's fine. Yeah, no problem. So totally. And it's the best way to start a play more. So I'm just going to go ahead and light it up. Um, for enterprise environments, I actually am a huge fan of Jenkins. Um, it's a tool that people really understand. Um, it has stood the test of time, right? I mean, people were using Hudson, but 15 years ago, maybe longer. And, you know, the way it works, hasn't really changed very much. I mean, Jenkins X is a little different, but, um, the UI and the way it works internally is pretty familiar to a lot of enterprise environments, which is great. >>And also in me, the plugin ecosystem is amazing. There's so many plugins for everything, and you can make your own if you know, Java groovy. I'm sure there's a perfect Kotlin in there, but I haven't tried myself, but it's really great. It's also really easy to write, um, CIS code, which is something I'm a big fan of. So Jenkins files have been, have worked really well for me. I, I know that I can get a little bit more complex as you start to build your own models and such, but, you know, for enterprise enterprise CIO CD, if you want, especially if you want to roll your own or own it yourself, um, Jenkins is the bellwether and for very good reason now for my personal projects. And I see a lot on the chat here, I think y'all, y'all been agreed with me get hub actions 100%, my favorite tool right now. >>Um, I love GitHub actions. It's, it's customizable, it's modular. There's a lot of plugins already. I started using getting that back maybe a week after when GA and there was no documentation or anything. And I still, it was still my favorite CIA tool even then. Um, and you know, the API is really great. There's a lot to love about GitHub actions and, um, and I, and I use it as much as I can from my personal project. So I still have a soft spot for Travis CAI. Um, you know, they got acquired and they're a little different now trying to see, I, I can't, I can't let it go. I just love it. But, um, yeah, I mean, when it comes to Seattle, those are my tools. So light me up in the comments I will respond. Yeah. >>I mean, I, I feel with you on the Travis, the, I think, cause I think that was my first time experiencing, you know, early days get hub open source and like a free CIA tool that I could describe. I think it was the ammo back then. I don't actually remember, but yeah, it was kind of an exciting time from my experience. There was like, oh, this is, this is just there as a service. And I could just use it. It doesn't, it's like get hub it's free from my open source stuff. And so it does have a soft spot in my heart too. So yeah. >>All right. We've got questions around, um, cam, so I'm going to ask some questions. We don't have to have these answers because sometimes they're going to be specific, but I want to call them out because people in chat may have missed that question. And there's probably, you know, that we have smart people in chat too. So there's probably someone that knows the answer to these things. If, if it's not us, um, they're asking about building Docker images in Kubernetes, which to me is always a sore spot because it's Kubernetes does not build images by default. It's not meant for that out of the gate. And, uh, what is the best way to do this without having to use privileged containers, which privileged containers just implying that yeah, you, you, it probably has more privileges than by default as a container in Kubernetes. And that is a hard thing because, uh, I don't, I think Docker doesn't lie to do that out of the gate. So I don't know if anyone has an immediate answer to that. That's a pretty technical one, but if you, if you know the answer to that in chat, call it out. >>Um, >>I had done this, uh, but I'm pretty sure I had to use a privileged, um, container and install the Docker Damon on the Kubernetes cluster. And I CA I can't give you a better solution. Um, I've done the same. So, >>Yeah, uh, Chavonne asks, um, back to the Jenkins thing, what's the easiest way to integrate Docker into a Jenkins CICB pipeline. And that's one of the challenges I find with Jenkins because I don't claim to be the expert on Jenkins. Is there are so many plugins because of this, of this such a huge ecosystem. Um, when you go searching for Docker, there's a lot that comes back, right. So I, I don't actually have a preferred way because every team I find uses it differently. Um, I don't know, is there a, do you know if there's a Jenkins preferred, a default plugin? I don't even know for Docker. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Sorry for Docker. And jacon sorry, Docker plugins for Jenkins. Uh, as someone's asking like the preferred or easy way to do that. Um, and I don't, I don't know the back into Jenkins that well, so, >>Well, th the new, the new way that they're doing, uh, Docker builds with the pipeline, which is more declarative versus the groovy. It's really simple, and their documentation is really good. They, um, they make it really easy to say, run this in this image. So you can pull down, you know, public images and add your own layers. Um, so I don't know the name of that plugin, uh, but I can certainly take a minute after this session and going and get that. Um, but if you really are overwhelmed by the plugins, you can just write your, you know, your shell command in Jenkins. You could just by, you know, doing everything in bash, calling the Docker, um, Damon directly, and then getting it working just to see that end to end, and then start browsing for plugins to see if you even want to use those. >>The plugins will allow more integration from end to end. Some of the things that you input might be available later on in the process for having to manage that yourself. But, you know, you don't have to use any of the plugins. You can literally just, you know, do a block where you write your shell command and get it working, and then decide if, for plugins for you. Um, I think it's always under important to understand what is going on under the hood before you, before you adopt the magic of a plugin, because, um, once you have a problem, if you're, if it's all a lockbox to you, it's going to be more difficult to troubleshoot. It's kind of like learning, get command line versus like get cracking or something. Once, once you get in a bind, if you don't understand the underlying steps, it's really hard to get yourself out of a bind, versus if you understand what the plugin or the app is doing, then, um, you can get out of situations a lot easier. That's a good place. That's, that's where I'd start. >>Yeah. Thank you. Um, Camden asks better to build test environment images, every commit in CII. So this is like one of those opinions of we're all gonna have some different, uh, or build on build images on every commit, leveraging the cash, or build them once outside the test pile pipeline. Um, what say you people? >>Uh, well, I I've seen both and generally speaking, my preference is, um, I guess the ant, the it's a consultant answer, right? I think it depends on what you're trying to do, right. So if you have a lot of small changes that are being made and you're creating images for each of those commits, you're going to have a lot of images in your, in your registry, right? And on top of that, if you're building those images, uh, through CAI frequently, if you're using Docker hub or something like that, you might run into rate limiting issues because of Docker's new rate, limiting, uh, rate limits that they put in place. Um, but that might be beneficial if the, if being able to roll back between those small changes while you're testing is important to you. Uh, however, if all you care about is being able to use Docker images, um, or being able to correlate versions to your Docker images, or if you're the type of team that doesn't even use him, uh, does he even use, uh, virgins in your image tags? Then I would think that that might be a little, much you might want to just have in your CIO. You might want to have a stage that builds your Docker images and Docker image and pushes it into your registry, being done first particular branches instead of having to be done on every commit regardless of branch. But again, it really depends on the team. It really depends on what you're building. It really depends on your workflow. It can depend on a number of things like a curse sometimes too. Yeah. Yeah. >>Once had two points here, you know, I've seen, you know, the pattern has been at every, with every, uh, uh, commit, assuming that you have the right set of tests that would kind of, uh, you would benefit from actually seeing, um, the, the, the, the testing workflow go through and can detect any issue within, within the build or whatever you're trying to test against. But if you're just a building without the appropriate set of tests, then you're just basically consuming almond, adding time, as well as all the, the image, uh, stories associated with it without treaty reaping the benefit of, of, of this pattern. Uh, and the second point is, again, I think if you're, if you're going to end up doing a per commit, uh, definitely recommend having some type of, uh, uh, image purging, um, uh, and, and, and garbage collection process to ensure that you're not just wasting, um, all the stories needed and also, um, uh, optimizing your, your bill process, because that will end up being the most time-consuming, um, um, you know, within, within your pipeline. So this is my 2 cents on this. >>Yeah, that's good stuff. I mean, those are both of those are conversations that could lead us into the rabbit hole for the rest of the day on storage management, uh, you know, CP CPU minutes for, uh, you know, your build stuff. I mean, if you're in any size team, more than one or two people, you immediately run into headaches with cost of CIA, because we have now the problem of tools, right? We have so many tools. We can have the CIS system burning CPU cycles all day, every day, if we really wanted to. And so you re very quickly, I think, especially if you're on every commit on every branch, like that gets you into a world of cost mitigation, and you probably are going to have to settle somewhere in the middle on, uh, between the budget, people that are saying you're spending way too much money on the CII platform, uh, because of all these CPU cycles, and then the developers who would love to have everything now, you know, as fast as possible and the biggest, biggest CPU's, and the biggest servers, and have the bills, because the bills can never go fast enough, right. >>There's no end to optimizing your build workflow. Um, we have another question on that. This is another topic that we'll all probably have different takes on is, uh, basically, uh, version tags, right? So on images, we, we have a very established workflow in get for how we make commits. We have commit shots. We have, uh, you know, we know get tags and there's all these things there. And then we go into images and it's just this whole new world that's opened up. Like there's no real consensus. Um, so what, what are your thoughts on the strategy for teams in their image tag? Again, another, another culture thing. Um, commander, >>I mean, I'm a fan of silver when we have no other option. Um, it's just clean and I like the timestamp, you know, exactly when it was built. Um, I don't really see any reason to use another, uh, there's just normal, incremental, um, you know, numbering, but I love the fact that you can pull any tag and know exactly when it was created. So I'm a big fan of bar, if you can make that work for your organization. >>Yep. People are mentioned that in chat, >>So I like as well. Uh, I'm a big fan of it. I think it's easy to be able to just be as easy to be able to signify what a major changes versus a minor change versus just a hot fix or, you know, some or some kind of a bad fix. The problem that I've found with having teams adopt San Bernardo becomes answering these questions and being able to really define what is a major change, what is a minor change? What is a patch, right? And this becomes a bit of an overhead or not so much of an overhead, but, uh, uh, uh, a large concern for teams who have never done versioning before, or they never been responsible for their own versioning. Um, in fact, you know, I'm running into that right now, uh, with, with a client that I'm working with, where a lot, I'm working with a lot of teams, helping them move their applications from a legacy production environment into a new one. >>And in doing so, uh, versioning comes up because Docker images, uh, have tags and usually the tax correlate to versions, but some teams over there, some teams that I'm working with are only maintaining a script and others are maintaining a fully fledged JAK, three tier application, you know, with lots of dependencies. So telling the script, telling the team that maintains a script, Hey, you know, you should use somber and you should start thinking about, you know, what's major, what's my number what's patch. That might be a lot for them. And for someone or a team like that, I might just suggest using commit shots as your versions until you figure that out, or maybe using, um, dates as your version, but for the more for the team, with the larger application, they probably already know the answers to those questions. In which case they're either already using Sember or they, um, or they may be using some other version of the strategy and might be in December, might suit them better. So, um, you're going to hear me say, it depends a lot, and I'm just going to say here, it depends. Cause it really does. Carlos. >>I think you hit on something interesting beyond just how to version, but, um, when to consider it a major release and who makes those decisions, and if you leave it to engineers to version, you're kind of pushing business decisions down the pipe. Um, I think when it's a minor or a major should be a business decision and someone else needs to make that call someone closer to the business should be making that call as to when we want to call it major. >>That's a really good point. And I add some, I actually agree. Um, I absolutely agree with that. And again, it really depends on the team that on the team and the scope of it, it depends on the scope that they're maintaining, right? And so it's a business application. Of course, you're going to have a product manager and you're going to have, you're going to have a product manager who's going to want to make that call because that version is going to be out in marketing. People are going to use it. They're going to refer to and support calls. They're going to need to make those decisions. Sember again, works really, really well for that. Um, but for a team that's maintaining the scripts, you know, I don't know, having them say, okay, you must tell me what a major version is. It's >>A lot, but >>If they want it to use some birds great too, which is why I think going back to what you originally said, Sember in the absence of other options. I think that's a good strategy. >>Yeah. There's a, there's a, um, catching up on chat. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to catch up, but there's a lot of people commenting on their favorite CII systems and it's, and it, it just goes to show for the, the testing and deployment community. Like how many tools there are out there, how many tools there are to support the tools that you're using. Like, uh, it can be a crazy wilderness. And I think that's, that's part of the art of it, uh, is that these things are allowing us to build our workflows to the team's culture. Um, and, uh, but I do think that, you know, getting into like maybe what we hope to be at what's next is I do hope that we get to, to try to figure out some of these harder problems of consistency. Uh, one of the things that led me to Docker at the beginning to begin with was the fact that it wa it created a consistent packaging solution for me to get my code, you know, off of, off of my site of my local system, really, and into the server. >>And that whole workflow would at least the thing that I was making at each step was going to be the same thing used. Right. And that, that was huge. Uh, it was also, it also took us a long time to get there. Right. We all had to, like Docker was one of those ones that decade kind of ideas of let's solidify the, enter, get the consensus of the community around this idea. And we, and it's not perfect. Uh, you know, the Docker Docker file is not the most perfect way to describe how to make your app, but it is there and we're all using it. And now I'm looking for that next piece, right. Then hopefully the next step in that, um, that where we can all arrive at a consensus so that once you hop teams, you know, okay. We all knew Docker. We now, now we're all starting to get to know the manifests, but then there's this big gap in the middle where it's like, it might be one of a dozen things. Um, you know, so >>Yeah, yeah. To that, to that, Brett, um, you know, uh, just maybe more of a shameless plug here and wanting to kind of talk about one of the things that I'm on. So excited, but I work, I work at Tasha Corp. I don't know anyone, or I don't know if many people have heard of, um, you know, we tend to focus a lot on workflows versus technologies, right. Because, you know, as you can see, even just looking at the chat, there's, you know, ton of opinions on the different tooling, right. And, uh, imagine having, you know, I'm working with clients that have 10,000 developers. So imagine taking the folks in the chat and being partnered with one organization or one company and having to make decisions on how to build software. Um, but there's no way you can conversion one or, or one way or one tool, uh, and that's where we're facing in the industry. >>So one of the things that, uh, I'm pretty excited about, and I don't know if it's getting as much traction as you know, we've been focused on it. This is way point, which is a project, an open source project. I believe we got at least, uh, last year, um, which is, it's more of, uh, it's, it is aim to address that really, uh, uh, Brad set on, you know, to come to tool to, uh, make it extremely easy and simple. And, you know, to describe how you want to build, uh, deploy or release your application, uh, in, in a consistent way, regardless of the tools. So similar to how you can think of Terraform and having that pluggability to say Terraform apply or plan against any cloud infrastructure, uh, without really having to know exactly the details of how to do it, uh, this is what wave one is doing. Um, and it can be applied with, you know, for the CIA, uh, framework. So, you know, task plugability into, uh, you know, circle CEI tests to Docker helm, uh, Kubernetes. So that's the, you know, it's, it's a hard problem to solve, but, um, I'm hopeful that that's the path that we're, you know, we'll, we'll eventually get to. So, um, hope, you know, you can, you can, uh, see some of the, you know, information, data on it, on, on HashiCorp site, but I mean, I'm personally excited about it. >>Yeah. Uh I'm to gonna have to check that out. And, um, I told you on my live show, man, we'll talk about it, but talk about it for a whole hour. Uh, so there's another question here around, uh, this, this is actually a little bit more detailed, but it is one that I think a lot of people deal with and I deal with a lot too, is essentially the question is from Cameron, uh, D essentially, do you use compose in your CIO or not Docker compose? Uh, because yes I do. Yeah. Cause it, it, it, it solves so many problems am and not every CGI can, I don't know, there's some problems with a CIO is trying to do it for me. So there are pros and cons and I feel like I'm still on the fence about it because I use it all the time, but also it's not perfect. It's not always meant for CIA. And CIA sometimes tries to do things for you, like starting things up before you start other parts and having that whole order, uh, ordering problem of things anyway. W thoughts and when have thoughts. >>Yes. I love compose. It's one of my favorite tools of all time. Um, and the reason why it's, because what I often find I'm working with teams trying to actually let me walk that back, because Jack on the chat asked a really interesting question about what, what, what the hardest thing about CIS for a lot of teams. And in my experience, the hardest thing is getting teams to build an app that is the same app as what's built in production. A lot of CGI does things that are totally different than what you would do in your local, in your local dev. And as a result of that, you get, you got this application that either doesn't work locally, or it does work, but it's a completely different animal than what you would get in production. Right? So what I've found in trying to get teams to bridge that gap by basically taking their CGI, shifting the CII left, I hate the shift left turn, but I'll use it. >>I'm shifting the CIO left to your local development is trying to say, okay, how do we build an app? How do we, how do we build mot dependencies of that app so that we can build so that we can test our app? How do we run tests, right? How do we build, how do we get test data? And what I found is that trying to get teams to do all this in Docker, which is normally a first for a lot of teams that I'm working with, trying to get them all to do all of this. And Docker means you're running Docker, build a lot running Docker, run a lot. You're running Docker, RM a lot. You ran a lot of Docker, disparate Docker commands. And then on top of that, trying to bridge all of those containers together into a single network can be challenging without compose. >>So I like using a, to be able to really easily categorize and compartmentalize a lot of the things that are going to be done in CII, like building a Docker image, running tests, which is you're, you're going to do it in CII anyway. So running tests, building the image, pushing it to the registry. Well, I wouldn't say pushing it to the registry, but doing all the things that you would do in local dev, but in the same network that you might have a mock database or a mock S3 instance or some of something else. Um, so it's just easy to take all those Docker compose commands and move them into your Yammel file using the hub actions or your dankest Bob using Jenkins, or what have you. Right. It's really, it's really portable that way, but it doesn't work for every team. You know, for example, if you're just a team that, you know, going back to my script example, if it's a really simple script that does one thing on a somewhat routine basis, then that might be a lot of overhead. Um, in that case, you know, you can get away with just Docker commands. It's not a big deal, but the way I looked at it is if I'm, if I'm building, if I build something that's similar to a make bile or rate file, or what have you, then I'm probably gonna want to use Docker compose. If I'm working with Docker, that's, that's a philosophy of values, right? >>So I'm also a fan of Docker compose. And, um, you know, to your point, Carlos, the whole, I mean, I'm also a fan of shifting CEI lift and testing lift, but if you put all that logic in your CTI, um, it changes the L the local development experience from the CGI experience. Versus if you put everything in a compose file so that what you build locally is the same as what you build in CGI. Um, you're going to have a better experience because you're going to be testing something more, that's closer to what you're going to be releasing. And it's also very easy to look at a compose file and kind of, um, understand what the dependencies are and what's happening is very readable. And once you move that stuff to CGI, I think a lot of developers, you know, they're going to be intimidated by the CGI, um, whatever the scripting language is, it's going to be something they're going to have to wrap their head around. >>Um, but they're not gonna be able to use it locally. You're going to have to have another local solution. So I love the idea of a composed file use locally, um, especially if he can Mount the local workspace so that they can do real time development and see their changes in the exact same way as it's going to be built and tested in CGI. It gives developers a high level of confidence. And then, you know, you're less likely to have issues because of discrepancies between how it was built in your local test environment versus how it's built in NCI. And so Docker compose really lets you do all of that in a way that makes your solution more portable, portable between local dev and CGI and reduces the number of CGI cycles to get, you know, the test, the test data that you need. So that's why I like it for really, for local dev. >>It'll be interesting. Um, I don't know if you all were able to see the keynote, but there was a, there was a little bit, not a whole lot, but a little bit talk of the Docker, compose V two, which has now built into the Docker command line. And so now we're shifting from the Python built compose, which was a separate package. You could that one of the challenges was getting it into your CA solution because if you don't have PIP and you got down on the binary and the binary wasn't available for every platform and, uh, it was a PI installer. It gets a little nerdy into how that works, but, uh, and the team is now getting, be able to get unified with it. Now that it's in Golang and it's, and it's plugged right into the Docker command line, it hopefully will be easier to distribute, easier to, to use. >>And you won't have to necessarily have dependencies inside of where you're running it because there'll be a statically compiled binary. Um, so I've been playing with that, uh, this year. And so like training myself to do Docker going from Docker dash compose to Docker space, compose. It is a thing I I'm almost to the point of having to write a shell replacement. Yeah. Alias that thing. Um, but, um, I'm excited to see what that's going, cause there's already new features in it. And it, these built kit by default, like there's all these things. And I, I love build kit. We could make a whole session on build kit. Um, in fact there's actually, um, maybe going on right now, or right around this time, there is a session on, uh, from Solomon hikes, the seat, uh, co-founder of Docker, former CTO, uh, on build kit using, uh, using some other tool on top of build kit or whatever. >>So that, that would be interesting for those of you that are not watching that one. Cause you're here, uh, to do a check that one out later. Um, all right. So another good question was caching. So another one, another area where there is no wrong answers probably, and everyone has a different story. So the question is, what are your thoughts on CII build caching? There's often a debate between security. This is from Quentin. Thank you for this great question. There's often a debate between security reproducibility and build speeds. I haven't found a good answer so far. I will just throw my hat in the ring and say that the more times you want to build, like if you're trying to build every commit or every commit, if you're building many times a day, the more caching you need. So like the more times you're building, the more caching you're gonna likely want. And in most cases caching doesn't bite you in the butt, but that could be, yeah, we, can we get the bit about that? So, yeah. Yeah. >>I'm going to quote Carlos again and say, it depends on, on, you know, how you're talking, you know, what you're trying to build and I'm quoting your colors. Um, yeah, it's, it's got, it's gonna depend because, you know, there are some instances where you definitely want to use, you know, depends on the frequency that you're building and how you're building. Um, it's you would want to actually take advantage of cashing functionalities, um, for the build, uh, itself. Um, but if, um, you know, as you mentioned, there could be some instances where you would want to disable, um, any caching because you actually want to either pull a new packages or, um, you know, there could be some security, um, uh, disadvantages related to security aspects that would, you know, you know, using a cache version of, uh, image layer, for example, could be a problem. And you, you know, if you have a fleet of build, uh, engines, you don't have a good grasp of where they're being cashed. We would have to, um, disable caching in that, in that, um, in those instances. So it, it would depend. >>Yeah, it's, it's funny you have that problem on both sides of cashing. Like there are things that, especially in Docker world, they will cash automatically. And, and then, and then you maybe don't realize that some of that caching could be bad. It's, it's actually using old, uh, old assets, old artifacts, and then there's times where you would expect it to cash, that it doesn't cash. And then you have to do something extra to enable that caching, especially when you're dealing with that cluster of, of CIS servers. Right. And the cloud, the whole clustering problem with caching is even more complex, but yeah, >>But that's, that's when, >>Uh, you know, ever since I asked you to start using build kits and able to build kit, you know, between it's it's it's reader of Boston in, in detecting word, you know, where in, in the bill process needs to cash, as well as, uh, the, the, um, you know, the process. I don't think I've seen any other, uh, approach there that comes close to how efficient, uh, that process can become how much time it can actually save. Uh, but again, I think, I think that's, for me that had been my default approach, unless I actually need something that I would intentionally to disable caching for that purpose, but the benefits, at least for me, the benefits of, um, how bill kit actually been processing my bills, um, from the builds as well as, you know, using the cash up until, you know, how it detects the, the difference in, in, in the assets within the Docker file had been, um, you know, uh, pretty, you know, outweigh the disadvantages that it brings in. So it, you know, take it each case by case. And based on that, determine if you want to use it, but definitely recommend those enabling >>In the absence of a reason not to, um, I definitely think that it's a good approach in terms of speed. Um, yeah, I say you cash until you have a good reason not to personally >>Catch by default. There you go. I think you catch by default. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, the trick is, well, one, it's not always enabled by default, especially when you're talking about cross server. So that's a, that's a complexity for your SIS admins, or if you're on the cloud, you know, it's usually just an option. Um, I think it also is this, this veers into a little bit of, uh, the more you cash the in a lot of cases with Docker, like the, from like, if you're from images and checked every single time, if you're not pinning every single thing, if you're not painting your app version, you're at your MPN versions to the exact lock file definition. Like there's a lot of these things where I'm I get, I get sort of, I get very grouchy with teams that sort of let it, just let it all be like, yeah, we'll just build two images and they're totally going to have different dependencies because someone happened to update that thing and after whatever or MPM or, or, and so I get grouchy about that, cause I want to lock it all down, but I also know that that's going to create administrative burden. >>Like the team is now going to have to manage versions in a very much more granular way. Like, do we need to version two? Do we need to care about curl? You know, all that stuff. Um, so that's, that's kind of tricky, but when you get to, when you get to certain version problems, uh, sorry, uh, cashing problems, you, you, you don't want those set those caches to happen because it, if you're from image changes and you're not constantly checking for a new image, and if you're not pinning that V that version, then now you, you don't know whether you're getting the latest version of Davion or whatever. Um, so I think that there's, there's an art form to the more you pen, the less you have, the less, you have to be worried about things changing, but the more you pen, the, uh, all your versions of everything all the way down the stack, the more administrative stuff, because you're gonna have to manually change every one of those. >>So I think it's a balancing act for teams. And as you mature, I to find teams, they tend to pin more until they get to a point of being more comfortable with their testing. So the other side of this argument is if you trust your testing, then you, and you have better testing to me, the less likely to the subtle little differences in versions have to be penned because you can get away with those minor or patch level version changes. If you're thoroughly testing your app, because you're trusting your testing. And this gets us into a whole nother rant, but, uh, yeah, but talking >>About penny versions, if you've got a lot of dependencies isn't that when you would want to use the cash the most and not have to rebuild all those layers. Yeah. >>But if you're not, but if you're not painting to the exact patch version and you are caching, then you're not technically getting the latest versions because it's not checking for all the time. It's a weird, there's a lot of this subtle nuance that people don't realize until it's a problem. And that's part of the, the tricky part of allow this stuff, is it, sometimes the Docker can be almost so much magic out of the box that you, you, you get this all and it all works. And then day two happens and you built it a second time and you've got a new version of open SSL in there and suddenly it doesn't work. Um, so anyway, uh, that was a great question. I've done the question on this, on, uh, from heavy. What do you put, where do you put testing in your pipeline? Like, so testing the code cause there's lots of types of testing, uh, because this pipeline gets longer and longer and Docker building images as part of it. And so he says, um, before staging or after staging, but before production, where do you put it? >>Oh man. Okay. So, um, my, my main thought on this is, and of course this is kind of religious flame bait, so sure. You know, people are going to go into the compensation wrong. Carlos, the boy is how I like to think about it. So pretty much in every stage or every environment that you're going to be deploying your app into, or that your application is going to touch. My idea is that there should be a build of a Docker image that has all your applications coded in, along with its dependencies, there's testing that tests your application, and then there's a deployment that happens into whatever infrastructure there is. Right. So the testing, they can get tricky though. And the type of testing you do, I think depends on the environment that you're in. So if you're, let's say for example, your team and you have, you have a main branch and then you have feature branches that merged into the main branch. >>You don't have like a pre-production branch or anything like that. So in those feature branches, whenever I'm doing CGI that way, I know when I freak, when I cut my poll request, that I'm going to merge into main and everything's going to work in my feature branches, I'm going to want to probably just run unit tests and maybe some component tests, which really, which are just, you know, testing that your app can talk to another component or another part, another dependency, like maybe a database doing tests like that, that don't take a lot of time that are fascinating and right. A lot of would be done at the beach branch level and in my opinion, but when you're going to merge that beach branch into main, as part of a release in that activity, you're going to want to be able to do an integration tasks, to make sure that your app can actually talk to all the other dependencies that it talked to. >>You're going to want to do an end to end test or a smoke test, just to make sure that, you know, someone that actually touches the application, if it's like a website can actually use the website as intended and it meets the business cases and all that, and you might even have testing like performance testing, low performance load testing, or security testing, compliance testing that would want to happen in my opinion, when you're about to go into production with a release, because those are gonna take a long time. Those are very expensive. You're going to have to cut new infrastructure, run those tests, and it can become quite arduous. And you're not going to want to run those all the time. You'll have the resources, uh, builds will be slower. Uh, release will be slower. It will just become a mess. So I would want to save those for when I'm about to go into production. Instead of doing those every time I make a commit or every time I'm merging a feature ranch into a non main branch, that's the way I look at it, but everything does a different, um, there's other philosophies around it. Yeah. >>Well, I don't disagree with your build test deploy. I think if you're going to deploy the code, it needs to be tested. Um, at some level, I mean less the same. You've got, I hate the term smoke tests, cause it gives a false sense of security, but you have some mental minimum minimal amount of tests. And I would expect the developer on the feature branch to add new tests that tested that feature. And that would be part of the PR why those tests would need to pass before you can merge it, merge it to master. So I agree that there are tests that you, you want to run at different stages, but the earlier you can run the test before going to production. Um, the fewer issues you have, the easier it is to troubleshoot it. And I kind of agree with what you said, Carlos, about the longer running tests like performance tests and things like that, waiting to the end. >>The only problem is when you wait until the end to run those performance tests, you kind of end up deploying with whatever performance you have. It's, it's almost just an information gathering. So if you don't run your performance test early on, um, and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but performance tests can be really useless if you don't have a goal where it's just information gap, uh, this is, this is the performance. Well, what did you expect it to be? Is it good? Is it bad? They can get really nebulous. So if performance is really important, um, you you're gonna need to come up with some expectations, preferably, you know, set up the business level, like what our SLA is, what our response times and have something to shoot for. And then before you're getting to production. If you have targets, you can test before staging and you can tweak the code before staging and move that performance initiative. Sorry, Carlos, a little to the left. Um, but if you don't have a performance targets, then it's just a check box. So those are my thoughts. I like to test before every deployment. Right? >>Yeah. And you know what, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you brought, I'm glad that you brought up Escalades and performance because, and you know, the definition of performance says to me, because one of the things that I've seen when I work with teams is that oftentimes another team runs a P and L tests and they ended, and the development team doesn't really have too much insight into what's going on there. And usually when I go to the performance team and say, Hey, how do you run your performance test? It's usually just a generic solution for every single application that they support, which may or may not be applicable to the application team that I'm working with specifically. So I think it's a good, I'm not going to dig into it. I'm not going to dig into the rabbit hole SRE, but it is a good bridge into SRE when you start trying to define what does reliability mean, right? >>Because the reason why you test performance, it's test reliability to make sure that when you cut that release, that customers would go to your site or use your application. Aren't going to see regressions in performance and are not going to either go to another website or, you know, lodge in SLA violation or something like that. Um, it does, it does bridge really well with defining reliability and what SRE means. And when you have, when you start talking about that, that's when you started talking about how often do I run? How often do I test my reliability, the reliability of my application, right? Like, do I have nightly tasks in CGI that ensure that my main branch or, you know, some important branch I does not mean is meeting SLA is meeting SLR. So service level objectives, um, or, you know, do I run tasks that ensure that my SLA is being met in production? >>Like whenever, like do I use, do I do things like game days where I test, Hey, if I turn something off or, you know, if I deploy this small broken code to production and like what happens to my performance? What happens to my security and compliance? Um, you can, that you can go really deep into and take creating, um, into creating really robust tests that cover a lot of different domains. But I liked just using build test deploy is the overall answer to that because I find that you're going to have to build your application first. You're going to have to test it out there and build it, and then you're going to want to deploy it after you test it. And that order generally ensures that you're releasing software. That works. >>Right. Right. Um, I was going to ask one last question. Um, it's going to have to be like a sentence answer though, for each one of you. Uh, this is, uh, do you lint? And if you lint, do you lent all the things, if you do, do you fail the linters during your testing? Yes or no? I think it's going to depend on the culture. I really do. Sorry about it. If we >>Have a, you know, a hook, uh, you know, on the get commit, then theoretically the developer can't get code there without running Melinta anyway, >>So, right, right. True. Anyone else? Anyone thoughts on that? Linting >>Nice. I saw an additional question online thing. And in the chat, if you would introduce it in a multi-stage build, um, you know, I was wondering also what others think about that, like typically I've seen, you know, with multi-stage it's the most common use case is just to produce the final, like to minimize the, the, the, the, the, the image size and produce a final, you know, thin, uh, layout or thin, uh, image. Uh, so if it's not for that, like, I, I don't, I haven't seen a lot of, you know, um, teams or individuals who are actually within a multi-stage build. There's nothing really against that, but they think the number one purpose of doing multi-stage had been just producing the minimalist image. Um, so just wanted to kind of combine those two answers in one, uh, for sure. >>Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, and with that, um, thank you all for the great questions. We are going to have to wrap this up and we could go for another hour if we all had the time. And if Dr. Khan was a 24 hour long event and it didn't sadly, it's not. So we've got to make room for the next live panel, which will be Peter coming on and talking about security with some developer ex security experts. And I wanted to thank again, thank you all three of you for being here real quick, go around the room. Um, uh, where can people reach out to you? I am, uh, at Bret Fisher on Twitter. You can find me there. Carlos. >>I'm at dev Mandy with a Y D E N D Y that's me, um, >>Easiest name ever on Twitter, Carlos and DFW on LinkedIn. And I also have a LinkedIn learning course. So if you check me out on my LinkedIn learning, >>Yeah. I'm at Nicola Quebec. Um, one word, I'll put it in the chat as well on, on LinkedIn, as well as, uh, uh, as well as Twitter. Thanks for having us, Brett. Yeah. Thanks for being here. >>Um, and, and you all stay around. So if you're in the room with us chatting, you're gonna, you're gonna, if you want to go to see the next live panel, I've got to go back to the beginning and do that whole thing, uh, and find the next, because this one will end, but we'll still be in chat for a few minutes. I think the chat keeps going. I don't actually know. I haven't tried it yet. So we'll find out here in a minute. Um, but thanks you all for being here, I will be back a little bit later, but, uh, coming up next on the live stuff is Peter Wood security. Ciao. Bye.

>>From San Francisco. It's the cube covering get lab commit 20, 20 Raji you buy get lab. >>Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes coverage of get lab commit 2020. We're here in San Francisco. It's a little bit chilly but uh, my first guests, uh, on the program are used to the weather cause they're coming to us from Wisconsin. Uh, both from Northwestern mutual, uh, sitting to my left here is Kyle person who is a senior engineer and sitting to his left is Sean who is also a senior engineer. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. Alright. We thought, you know, both of us coming from colder climates that may be coming to San Francisco would be a little warmer, but they have hand warmers, they have warm drinks and it is the warmth of the community that will warm our innards. I'm short right there. It says get warm. That's what we're here to do. All right, Kyle, let's start with you. Northwestern mutual. I think most people are familiar with the organization, but give us a little bit of a, you know, how people should think of Northwestern mutual in 2020 and, uh, your roles. >>Yeah. So obviously we mean we're a large insurance company but also into financial services and products and we're really trying to become more of a digital company as well. We think that that's going to be a differentiator in the marketplace. You know, having apps that our customers can interact with, um, trying to speed up underwriting, things like that. So we're really just trying to be a technology company as much of an insurance company. Okay, >>great. And Sean, I understand you're, you're on the same team as Kyle helping you along with that digital transformation that that's been all the buzz for the last couple of years. Yeah. He can't get rid of me. We flew, you know, 1200 miles and I'm still sitting next to, uh, but yeah, at Northwestern mutual, I mean, going back a number of years now, the, the company started down this path of doing a digital transformation where we wanted to be, you know, a software company that is providing financial service and financial stability for our clients. So it was a big shift that we, we started, we knew we needed to modernize everything. So we started down that path. Great. So we had that. So Kyle, maybe if you, it can, you know, when did get lab enter the picture, what was kind of the initial use case and, uh, let's, let's go from there. >>Yeah, it was before my time. I'm, Chad has been there for a long time. Most of the ride, but uh, yeah, it's been several years and it's been, uh, you know, starting out with SCM, moving into CEI and then, you know, adopted sustainer journey that you hear about even in the keynote today. That's pretty much how we charted our course. Okay. >>So Sean, you've been there since the beginning of a, uh, to get lab usage? Pretty much it, it showed up a couple months before I got there. But, uh, going back to your early mid 22, yeah, 2015, uh, we had kind of a more of a pilot group of engineers that were, were starting out, you know, to get us down this path to where we wanted to go and they needed a new tool, something that worked better than what we currently had at an M and a, they settled on, on get lab because it provided, you know, one being open source was a huge selling point for us. Um, and it was just ever-growing. So it allowed our developers to really get going and get going much faster. Okay, great. And in the keynote, okay, Kyle, they were talking about how it's not just about the dev, the second the ops, but really not allowing everybody into the same tooling, even marketing and finance. What's kind of the breadth of the organization is it is mostly devs that dev and ops does security, you know, who, who's involved in using this tooling. >>It's everybody. We're a, we're figuring out our, you know, everyone's kinda got their own spin on things. So we're in that, um, classic position where I think we have the tooling sprawl that everyone talks about and we're, we're constantly evaluating, you know, how does Gilad fit into that picture? What do we bolt on? You know, we have the luxury of being able to integrate with other things as well. But then if certainly if we can get an economy of scale where we can just use get lab, it's to provide that seamless interface. That's something we always look to do too. All right. >>So Sean, my understanding is a NM is also using Coubernetties and that's something that you're involved in. So very money you bring us in people, you know, sometimes get misconstrued as to the scope and the purpose of, of Kubernetes. We've been at the cube con cloud date of con for a number of years, but uh, why don't you set the stage for us and kind of walk us through the, the what and the why of Kubernetes? Yeah. For us at least being able to leverage something like Kubernetes, which when you really back out and you know, do the 10,000 foot view, it's container management and being able to go into a more modern architecture. We're leveraging containers for pretty much whatever we can, or at least what makes sense. Um, and that's kind of how we started down the path with get lab moving into Kubernetes. You know, we were, we were trying to figure out like, where do we want to go so, you know, let's not just push the boat out a little, let's drop, kick the boat off the end of the pier and see where we end up. >>So we started working down that path of deploying get lab into Kubernetes cause it allowed us to easily expand and make the application highly available. So even if some easies go down in AWS, which knock on wood never happens. Uh, we're still good to go. Our users are, wouldn't even notice. Okay. Um, so you mentioned AWS. Is that your primary cloud, your only cloud? What, what is your cloud situation? Yeah, that's, that's a Northwestern mutual is public cloud. Okay, great. And speak a little bit to, you know, Amazon does have plenty of its own tooling. Uh, maybe a little bit about how get lab and, how those fit together for you. Um, well, I mean, we use get lab CIS specifically to be able to provision different services in one, not that we need as long as they fit near within our security requirements. And, you know, everything we do, we get vetted out through our internal processes, but it's really allowed our developers to move forward so much faster. >>You know, it's kind of gone are the days of, let me fill out a request for, you know, X, Y, Z and, you know, wait two as it goes through somebody's work queue and they eventually get around to it. Um, allowing our developers to just, you know, do their commits, get their, you know, peer review and just deploy and provision right away, allows us to get our applications to market just so much faster than even a few years ago. Alright. So Kyle, the two of you are presenting here at the show, uh, you know, we, we love, we heard GitLab talking on stages. You know, customers don't just use it, they commit, they add feedback in and they speak at the show. So maybe speak a little bit of, uh, you know, NMS, you know, involvement as to uh, you know, are you committing code and what, what are you speaking about? >>So we're here to speak about our journey on Kubernetes. I'm trans covering the application side and I'm going to talk about our, our dabble in Kubernetes CII. So we're, we're really looking to, um, we're looking for efficiencies I guess in, in density. That's a primary driver behind trying to explore the trail. But also, um, one of the things I'll talk about in the talk is, is boosting our security posture using Kubernetes. So a lot of times people are using API keys and they're getting stale and not being rotated. Uh, we can do some neat things with Kubernetes and it's native. I am offerings to boost our security posture by moving towards role based access and getting those credentials that are rotating and providing us, uh, you know, non stale sort of authentication credentials, things like that. >>Sean, yeah, pretty much covers it. Uh, uh, and beyond with the CIA, you know, being able to run and get lab itself within Qube and having the different components broken out and we're alive. It's, it, it's enabling us to limit any kind of attack plane that could exist. You know, it's, you have to get through a lot to even get to it. So it's really just been a huge, a huge plus for us. OK. I, I'd love to hear both. Both of you have been to these events a number of times. You're speaking to event. What, what, what's the value of coming to get loud commit? I mean, for me it's a, a huge networking thing and being able to relay our experiences that we've gone through to other people that are out in the community. I mean, I know lots of, you know, everyone wants to see, you know, what can you do in Kubernetes and like, here's some of the things that we've done. >>Here's some of the things that you know, works that didn't work. You know, we would recommend you going this kind of route if we were to start it over again. And beyond that, you know, meeting people from all over the world, like, uh, we were talking with some, uh, some guy, gentleman Nico from white duck who is from Germany. It's not something you get to do, you know, face to face all the time. Alright. Sean, can you share with our audience any of those? You know, if we could do it over again, we'd change something. Is it an organizational thing or technical piece or until don't don't use EFS for getting repo data. It will not end well for you can take away. All right. Kyle, how about you? You've been to a number of these shows, uh, you know, the networking, the piece or you know, what else, what, what, what, what for you personally and for NM, uh, you know, brings you back. >>Yeah. Networking is a big thing. I think it's also getting feedback on, you know, what we're doing. Does it make sense? Just like get lab is throwing things out there early, trying to tighten up that contribution loop. We want to get our ideas out there and then this is an opportunity for people to ask questions about our presentation. If maybe we're off in the wrong direction, maybe we can get that steered back on course. Um, you know, we're just really here to get the feedback. Yeah. I always love talking to people in the financial industry and you talk about open source, you know, if, if you went back, you know, five years ago, you'd probably get a little bit of sideways looks as to wait, you know, you're doing what, um, are we past that? Do do you feel are most people, uh, you know, really understanding where we are with, with cloud and open source in general that it, you know, it makes perfect sense for a financial institution to be part of it. >>I'd say at NM we, we've finally gotten past that curve and now we're, we're trying to, you know, make it even easier for our internal developers to easier participate in open source, you know, their internal products and contribute more to the community. Uh, we've completely done an about face from, you know, probably 15 years ago where it was open source. You wanted to, what to, yeah, let's go. How can we make things better? It's, it's all about, you know, our, our customers. So we want to make sure we create the best product and experience for them. That's awesome. Yeah, there's still some barriers there. I mean, it's all about managing risk, right? So you have to do things diligently and make sure that your bases are covered. And so it's not like it can be a free for all. We have to do our due diligence, but we, you know, we love to contribute. And we love to get up without their there as we can. All right. Well, Kyle and Sean, thank you so much for sharing with our audience. Best of luck with your presentations and, uh, have a great time at the show. Thank you. All right. Uh, thank you to, to NM for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We're joined by Patrick O'Reilly of O'Reilly Venture Partners based in San Francisco. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Patrick. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, you are a serial entrepreneur now working as a VC, what are you doing here? Tell us why you came to Ignite. >> Yeah, well selfishly on the VC side we have a few of our portfolio companies here that have booths, and I wanted to kind of hear what people are asking, you know, why they're interested in the companies and how we're framing, you know, those companies to the end users. I think these type of events are really good to unlock hidden potential, or things that people can tell you that you wouldn't actually have thought about, yeah. >> Yeah, so Patrick, you know, I've known you for a number of years. Usually see you at the opensource shows. Microsoft, you know, publicly very embracing opensource. You know, they love Linux, partnering with Red Hat, even you know, partnering is a lot of things that Microsoft does. They were working with VMware. What's your viewpoint as to how you see Microsoft and the opensource world, and how about this ecosystem? Is this a vibrant ecosystem that, you know, VCs are investing in, or is it just that there's companies of yours that, you know, this is part of the story. >> No, and I think historically we've had the, you know, build versus buy, you know, kind of way of looking at it, but when I typically think of Microsoft, it's more people building glue, you know, code to kind of connect things together, and you tend to have blinders on and not think about what opensource components you can use. You know, you look for like what company has a solution you can buy, or license or OEM, and I think that's changing, you know, over time. You know, Microsoft does an amazing job with developers of giving them very easy to understand languages and amazing tooling, and along with that the documentation and the training, so I kind of felt like you came into development one of two ways. You either were like on the Microsoft track and using the cookie cutter approach, you know, to doing things and getting certified on something, or you were opensource, you learned the scripting language and you just looked at what you can cobble together in the opensource world, and there wasn't a lot of crosspollination, but now I see that those walls kind of dissolving. People are willing to mix and match. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you know, some places I've seen Microsoft, a lot in the Kubernetes show, so you know, first got to know you you were at Kismetic, you know, really the first company around Kubernetes that we knew. You know, I know you're doing a lot of different things but we love your viewpoint on, you know, anything on Microsoft in that space, as well as just what you've seen, you know, as a watcher of the Kubernetes space these days. >> Yeah, I mean I've been... You know, if I step back from Kubernetes, you know, back to like the Apache Mesos and the Mesosphere days, you know, if you rewind all the way back there you kind of had to do a lot of education of like, "What do you mean 'containerization?' "I have VMs, why do I need containers?" And now that we've gotten past that and people actually understand the value of containers, like having an orchestration system in place that works and works with everything, you know, is obviously more important than ever, and it's... I really credit the CNCF and the Linux Foundation for what they've done to kind of bring standards around Kubernetes and shepherd the project, and I think that, you know, the fairly recent announcement from Google that they're fully trusting, you know, CNCF to be the shepherd of that is huge, and it gives a framework for people, like Gabe at Microsoft, to work with, you know, some of the staff at Google, and like, in a collaborative way and move it forward for everyone, and I think, you know, historically containers made a ton of sense on Linux, but now that we have Windows server, you know, supporting containers and theCUBE working, you know, on Windows, I think in the 111... Or sorry, 113 release we'll have full Windows server, you know, support in Kubernetes, like that'll be huge. And just a quick aside, like the reason I even kind of honed in on containers and thought it was interesting is the average server utilization is still so low, but we're not really trained as technologists to care about that, and you know, we're really good at building data centers and tucking them off in places where no one sees, but when the average server's taking like... It's like running a hairdryer on high, you know, for electricity and then they run so hot you have to cool it. Like, we're really not helping the environment, so I think if we can move towards containerization, move towards efficient utilization of our hardware, you know, it'll be better for everyone, not just this ecosystem, so... >> So, talk to, tell our viewers a little bit about your portfolios and your portfolio companies that are here, and how they fit into the ecosystem. >> Yeah, so the one I'm most excited about, or shouldn't probably say it that way, I'll reframe that-- >> Can't have favorites, they're all your babies. (laughs) >> Yeah, they're all my babies. (laughs) >> But Ziften Technologies is great. I think their integration with the Windows, the vendor ATP, you know, advanced threat protection, you know, tool is great. They focus on the Mac and the Linux components and give you that same kind of pane of glass on the Microsoft side to see those endpoints, and like their utilization of AI, like they have an upcoming release where they're using AI to do things, and traditionally in that space it's been like the AB vendors, you know, doing everything and you had kind of, "Here's our signatures, "we're going to scan against those signatures," and it's a creative use of AI now to, like, look for just anomaly detections. These are the things we haven't seen before. Not sure what it is but it looks abnormal, and those are the kind of like spin-outs of companies that I'm looking for, too. Like I want to see people doing more meaningful things, you know, with AI. I think if we look at Azure and what they're offering now, like I don't need to have a bunch of data scientists at my startup. I can implement computer vision just using what off-the-shelf components, you know, from Microsoft and you know, Azure. I can do video indexing, you know, using their services. Like, if I rewind just back three years I would've had to have a team of like four data scientists. They'd be reading whitepapers, they'd be implementing code that like sort of half works, and they would probably take half a year to train some models to get, like, moderate results, and now in a matter of minutes, you know, I can use this off-the-shelf stuff. >> Yeah, it's fascinating, I think back to, you know, we were pretty early at theCUBE at watching the whole big data trend, and back then it was like, "Okay, we're going to "take that two-year project and you know, "drive it down to six months," and now we talk in the AI space is, you know, how can we drive that down even more. In big data there was concern, everything seemed to be custom. In AI we're starting to get to more templatized solutions, rolling out for a lot of industries, and it feels like it's taking off a lot faster than that space is, and I know there's a lot of investment going on in the space, and a lot there, so... Anything in particular, you know, what excites you, what makes a good, you know, AI investment versus, you know, there's just so much happening out there. >> Well, you know, I... I struggle with the name AI a little bit. >> Yeah, no, no, I understand, yeah. >> I'm working on a talk, and you know, I kind of like don't, I don't enjoy the artificial aspect of it because it's really just intelligence, and you know, right now it's a buzzword people are throwing into everything when really they mean, "We use an algorithm." (laughs) You know, it's not truly AI, but when we get to cognition we get, you know, to, you know, someday if we have quantum supremacy we'll have, you know, systems that actually can maybe have a consciousness, you know, and decide things. That's where I'm interested, I'm looking... Like on the devops side I'm looking for people using AI to get away with repetitive tasks. Like I would love to see, you know, someone have a system where it's like, "Hey, we've noticed, you know, 90 times "this week this guy's done this exact "same thing, you know, 99% the same way." Like, let's automate that away. You know, we've been really good in the space to kind of treat infrastructure like code, you know, and be able to tear things up. Like I mean, I've been incredibly excited to see, like just in my career, how we went from, "Okay, you're going to do something meaningful on the web. "You need to build a data center. "You need to, you know, get a bunch of servers, racks," and then you pay all this equipment and oh, by the way, 18 months from now it's going to be obsolete and you're going to have to spend money again, to where now I can just, you know, get some credits to start up in the cloud, you know, try things out and do like really meaningful things. So, just looking for anyone on AI that's going to do something that moves the needle. >> Yeah, now that, yeah, just on the terminology piece, I've lived through the cloud wars and the argument over what was and what isn't, so it's just, you know, the shorthand for this wave that we have there, where AI or ML, or you know, IBM has some interesting terms that they want to call it. We understand that there's intelligence that I can do with software, a lot of machine-to-machine things that are going on, and it's not a lot of, you know, shouldn't be a lot of heavy lifting by people to go in there. Oh, wait, I can train something, I can learn what's happening, so... >> Well, I wanted to ask when... I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs ears are pricking up when they hear that you want to make these meaningful investments. What is it that you look for in a company, is it... In terms of the leadership team, in terms of any track record, what sort of makes your eyes light up? >> So, I try to go to as many conferences as I can, because I feel that's where, you know, the hallway track and I can meet people. I can see, you know, their talks, see what they're passionate about, so what I'm really looking for is investing more in the people than in the idea, because startups can always pivot, and you look at some of the greatest companies out there, they were pivots from, you know, a slightly different model and they realized that, "Oh, we should go chase down this other thing." So, to me, I'm looking for people that are doing something exciting where they are already, looking to make the leap. You know, for example, like you know, the Spinnaker team or people that do something, you know, like... You know, like if etcd wanted to move off and be a separate company, like things like that where they've done something, they've proven it, and now they want to go start a company around it, and I think right off the bat, like if you've built some interesting technology that people are starting to use you have a decent revenue stream just from support, you know, of that and helping those end users, and I think, you know, with O'Reilly we do something a little different than other people. Like I focus mostly on seed investment, very early stage. Our typical check size is around $500k, and I actually allow people to take us off the cap table and just pay us back. Like you know, I've done nine startups in my career, and it's... Fundraising is one of those things where you only get good at it once you don't need it anymore, (chuckles) and I felt the pain of being on that side of the desk and I want to be in the position where, you know, we can write the checks and not try to, like, have a lot of governance, not try to take a board seat, not give you down pressure, you know, on what you're doing but really be additive. I think moving forward I would love to be in the position where we can help incubate, you know, a lot of companies because we've found that, you know, you all kind of go through, every company goes through the same process like, "Now, we need a real CFO because "we need financial projections." Like, being able to, like, provide those services for portfolio companies where they don't have to go spend their resources chasing that down. >> I'm curious how much some of the big players, or just the gravity of what's happening in the space that you're looking at, so obviously we're here at the Microsoft show, but Google, Amazon, a lot of activity going on and we can call it AI or what you will, VMware even, Oracle, SalesForce, how much of the big players defining and you have to build around them, versus you know, we look at Kubernetes is supposed to make things independent, to be able to be opensource and be able to build solutions, you know, regardless of what platform they're on. >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're living in a world where people have a lot of choice, you know, and we look at even, like we take the example of cloud providers. Like, as long as I don't get vendor lock in and use, you know, their specific features, like I can move around to different cloud providers, I can now say I want to negotiate a better price here and migrate over, and I think just with any of the technologies, like trying to work in ways where companies can work together and be additive, I think that's where we actually move, you know, move down the field. I don't know what analogy's appropriate to use, but you know, I feel like there's a lot of really interesting stuff that we should be doing, and making... Every company doing a slightly different version of the same thing I don't think, you know, makes sense. Like, you know, even silly things like as we mature. Like, you know, back in the day everyone used to have broadcast television. We built all these antennas, we got all this range, you know, and then we moved to digital and we didn't need those antennas, we didn't need that range, so they started decommissioning them, but then companies came along and they're like, "Well, wait, now we have this "unlicensed spectrum we can use." So, now they're using it for internet. You know, you can get 20 megabit connectivity out to a rural farm where now they can put some cheap IoT sensors, and like, do really meaningful things with low cost technologies, like those are the things I'm interesting in. You know, so kids that want to cobble together, you know, IoT sensors and come up with a way to use, you know, what they have in rural areas, and like, and have technology actually help people in a meaningful way, and I think those are a lot of very viable startups, you know, in that space. I do think we live in a world where every company's going to end up graduating into one of the camps, be it, you know, SalesForce, Google, you know, Microsoft, but in that innovation spike, like when they're first starting improving out the companies I think they have a ton of choice, you know. >> You described a very beneficent approach to how you think about VC. Do you think, how would you describe the VC landscape right now? You said you want to be able to just incubate great ideas and help these young companies when they are not good at fundraising and they don't have the smooth, slick deck that will really impress the bigger VC firms. I mean, how, what's wrong with the VC landscape today and what else are you doing to make it better? >> Well, I think the incentives are a little off. You know, I can speak for myself, like when I was... You know, when I was looking to raise VC money and my previous companies, like you know, you get these great offers from people, but then you talk to other entrepreneurs and you're like, you know, I'm not going to call anyone out by name, but you're like, "Well, how is this VC's firm served you," and you start hearing of ways that it was additive, but also kind of put undue pressure on them, or they say things like, "Well, we really didn't "need to raise that round then. "We could've done bridge financing "or we could've figured out how to get a MVP product "out there and brought in some revenue." So, I just think it's the ultrahigh returns that VCs are looking for, and the promises that those VCs are making to their LPs, (chuckles) you know, in their funds to outperform everyone else, and you know, everyone talks to everyone, right? So, if anything's meaningful out there looking for investment kind of the back channel is very vibrant and it's dog-eat-dog, and some of it, I kind of reckon it to, you know, your alma mater, like where you went to school. Like, you know, if you're an MIT person, like MIT's the best place in the world. You know, if you're, you know, some other school, they're the best place in the world, and the VCs tend to kind of, like, fall in those camps, and what I'm looking to do-- >> And those are real biases that impact women and underrepresented minorities, to their detriment. >> Yeah, and you know, and that's the thing I've struggled with, too, when you look at the... Like, let's take Andreessen, you know, for example and you look at the portfolio companies, like you know, you kind of become locked into that ecosystem. Like if you want to go, you know, if I'm on Mesosphere and I want to go partner with someone that's not under that, or they have a company in that portfolio that does similar things, you're going to be pressured into working with the portfolio company over going off and maybe choosing the better, you know, choice for the industry, so I'd like to see, you know, those things change. >> Right, and so, Patrick, we talked a little bit about Ziften, security endpoint, you know, really hot space. I want to give the opportunity, other companies you have here that we should check out. >> Yeah, so we work closely with the team at Turbonomic. I think, you know, what they've done over time, you know, is amazing. I love products where you can just bolt it in and within a short period of time you're getting value. Like, you know, stepping back and just saying one thing about Ziften, like I think it's amazing, because I come from a software development, you know, background, and one thing as a software developer I've always found fascinating is like when you come in wearing the developer hat they give you the keys to the kingdom. They're like, "Oh, here's root access to the servers, "here's where all of our data is, "here's how you do a snapshot of production "to, you know, test it, you know, in staging," and I've always thought that it was a tremendous amount of risk, and you know, on average a company can be hacked for up to 100 days before they even realize that they've had a breach, and like, any kind of company, you know, be it Ziften or anyone in that space, that can showcase that to you. Like, you know, raise up things that you weren't aware of, you know, is really interesting, and then, you know, to the, like, Nico and Turbonomics and the things that they're doing there. Like, to actually get the most out of what you already have, like that's huge to me, because one of the, you know, one of the things I see in cloud computing that we didn't necessarily have, you know, directly owned physical infrastructure is it's almost too easy to spin things up. You know, you've got the guy clicking through the UIs like, "Oh, this instance looks great. "Oh, and it says it's only be $140 this month," and then they end up spinning up 1,000 of those, you know? (laughs) You get that first sticker shock of, like, here's that $250,000 bill that month, (chuckles) you know, for cloud, and companies like Turbonomics can, like, avoid you, you know, making those mistakes. >> Great, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It was really fun talking. >> Yeah. >> We could talk to you for hours. >> Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (techy music)

>>From Las Vegas, it's the cube cuddle EMC world 2016, brought to you by EMC. Now your host, John furrier. Welcome >>Back everyone. We are here, live in Las Vegas for EMC world 2012. I'm John Ferrari, the founder of Silicon angle and host of the cube. And we are extracting the signal from noise. And one of our traditions at EMC world is to do a conversation and panel discussion around women of the world with Stella Lowe, who is VP of global communications for EMC and Susan Carter, Nico, who's the founder and CEO of authentic leadership. Stella. Every year we do this as one of my favorite things. As we wrap up EMC world, soon, it may be Dell world or Dell EMC, whatever that kind of turns into. Yeah, I wish you can't comment. Cause your communications is, is to talk about kind of the human side of what's going on. And the theme for EMC was modernization of enterprise, you know, infrastructure, speed, performance, scalability. And you've taken this theme this year with women of the world to modernizing your career in an era of change. And tell me about what that was this year. >>Yeah, absolutely. John. So yeah, we were in this, um, tech industry is changing all the time, but right now we're in this kind of unprecedented change. Um, you, this, this is gonna be a lot of consolidations is the thinking over the next two years, a lot of people find a lot of companies finding their dance partners. In some ways we've already found our dance partner, which is Dell, but there's gonna be a lot of that going on. And um, and there's definitely a lot of change happening here at EMC. So we wanted to make sure that we were focusing on how to own modernize and direct your career within this sea of tremendous James. >>So Susan, I want to get your take on this because we are living as the theme of the show is, is a transformation happening, which means there are certainly change and there's big bets being made in the business that requires people process and technology transformation. People is a big part of it. And people have to be bold. There's some gambling, there's some bets and with that will come maybe some missteps or some failures and how you can overcome that will define ultimately your success to take maybe little failures, not big failures, but like, but this is part of the evolution of innovation. How does that affect people, specifically women, as they're in this now converge workforce, male, men and women coming together. What's your thoughts on this? >>Well, men and women alike change is hard, right? So as industries converge as merchants and acquisitions happen, you know, the industry itself is in such a massive transformation mode. It's requiring people of all of all levels and in all fields, but particularly in the world of technology to completely redefine their skillsets, their relevance, the way they're going to actually help sort of step into this new era of digital technology. So it's causing, you know, ripple effects of reinvention and change all over the place. You know, we all to change as human beings at a very personal level. What does it mean for me? And so a big part of what we discussed today at the conference was just, how do you sort of lean into that change and how can you begin to look at your own potential and your own skillsets from, with a different lens? >>You know, um, we tend to box ourselves in as far as our potential goes and we say, okay, I've been in this functional area for all of my career. So I guess my opportunities sit squarely in this box. And we talked a lot about the value of sort of reinventing and taking a hard look at our transferable skill sets. So the attributes that we have as, as human beings that could let be leveraged into other roles or expanded roles and the skill sets that have made us so successful in what we're doing today. So how might we bust that open and find new opportunities in this world of change? And it's pretty important that we do it now. I mean, there was a, um, it was announced just a few days ago that in 2015, there were 359 new CEOs announced, uh, in the top two and a half thousand companies around the world. Only 10 were women, John 10, 10 out of 359. It's shocking. So if we're going to change, reverse that trend, we've got to start reversing that rate from that >>Consistent though across all industry, even venture capital, which has really highlighted in Silicon Valley where we live and that's obvious a male dominate, but now there's no women VCs. Now cowboy ventures is a bunch of them that are coming together and Hey, we can play ball each other. >>What does it surprise you that there's less women learning about tech now learning, you know, in tech education now than there was in the eighties? I mean, so, so we've already got to grapple with this and, and, and change the course of this. And, and women have got to start taking responsibility for their own careers and their own direction. >>What are some of the stories that you've heard this week at, at your event, as you guys talk with each other, what are some of the common patterns and stories that you're hearing? >>So we're certainly hearing from the women in the room, but they see that the impending change as exciting as an opportunity, but they're also, there's also some things anxiety around that change. There's definitely fear there and that's what we're seeing. Um, you know, and, and, um, you know, they need, people need to take that fair and use it as a catalyst for positive things. Right, right. I mean, 10 people tend to shut down when they're in environments of fear. And one of the things that we talked a great deal about was how do you sort of turn that around and, um, use that as a catalyst to take stock in not only sort of what your inherent capabilities are, but your vision for your life and the values that you hold dear and say, okay. So if my job serves my life, then what is my end game and what steps in choices can I make, you know, putting myself back in the driver's seat versus letting this this change. That's sort of at the, both of my macro level and the micro level, like sweet meander and, and, and create a, of a victim mentality. We talked a lot about sort of that empowerment and the accountability to sort of take charge of your own desks. >>It's interesting. You mentioned leaned in earlier. So Sheryl Sandberg's in my community in Palo Alto, Facebook friend, you know, where I'm involved a lot with some Facebook stuff. And I put, I've been following her lean in and I want to bring this up is you mentioned the word fearless. Um, you know, I've been called fearless, fearless. That's a guy thing, right. Guys can be fearless. Is it okay for women to be fearless and is lean in a fearless kind of vibes? It's not so much, I don't wanna get semantically tied on views, but this brings up a point that people get stuck on the semantics, but that kind of is a bias thing. Be more fearless and you'll get ahead versus lean in is a guess could be construed as a female version of fearless, the words matter. But at the same day, how does a woman become fearless? It doesn't matter. Yeah. >>So the other speaker that we had on the panel today, we were very lucky also to have Rashma, um, uh Rashma Sudani uh, and she, she, um, has the company, uh, founded the company, girls who code, and she says that women were brought up to be, uh, perfect. Whereas boys were brought up to be brave. So it's okay for a boy to climb a tree and go to the top. But with girls were like, no, no, sit in the chair, look pretty, be nice, you know, but be perfect. Um, and so women are very scared to go into areas that don't know because they're worried about making mistakes. And what we were trying to get over today was imperfection is okay, it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to, you know, and you've got to get kind of get over that fear to do that. >>And it's the attributes Susan. So a woman and a man, they have different attributes. So maybe fearless my, Oh, he's feeling at the top of the tree, but every attribute in a diverse environment can contribute to a common outcome that makes it better. I mean, that's kind of the theme that I'm seeing. >>It's true. Um, fearlessness in you say words matter, uh, concept is kind of the same. We talked a lot about self con self-confidence and the, the contrast in the sexes, uh, when it comes to self-confidence and then so many women seem to sort of stop short of having that self confidence to step out and you say, be fearless to take risk to just sort of seize that moment and say, you know, what, if it doesn't work out, I can choose again. There's we just seem to stop short of being able to do that, where guys seem to be a little bit more comfortable. And part of it is the way we're raised, you know, women to be perfect. And we tend to be very, very quiet about those failures. And so it kind of sends that message. Like, I really need to set a stay away from those arenas where I just, I might not be a stunning success. >>So there was some discussion around men versus women in the imposter syndrome, which tends to afflict a lot of women, particularly women in business, where we kind of doubt our own worth as, as a leader, as a professional. And there's this fear that, you know, at some point we're going to be found out that we're really not as good as others around us think we are. And that drives a certain kind of behavior in the workplace. So, you know, um, workaholism, perfectionism, procrastination, just so afraid to make a mistake and be found out. So, you know, that seems to be, um, more characteristic of females than males. Um, there are just a lot of, there's a lot of complexity around >>The guys that are faking it, that good will be found out. It may be, maybe there's a thing there, but modernizing your career though. That's the theme? What is the pattern that, what does that mean? I mean, how, how do you talk to that? Because everyone wants, I mean, who doesn't want to be modern, right. And we're in the modern era, we want to be happy. We want to be cool when advance, okay. Advancement means you're climbing the ladder or you're, you're trying something new, which means you will fall and stumble. We all stumble when we learn is that part of the modernization is dealing with the environment and the change and the failure. >>Yeah, it is. In fact, um, the first thing that we talked about was the need to be incredibly strategic in this environment, we're business people. And when facing any business challenge, you tend to do scenario planning, right? And you say, well, if this happens, here's my strategy. Uh, if that happens, here's my strategy. So you say worst case, best case likely case. And, and when you start to develop strategies around how you're going to navigate those things, it gives you additional power and confidence to sort of move forward in your redefinition. So that's sort of that the first step in modernizing your career, we also talked a bit a bit ago about, um, understanding where you might have some self limiting beliefs about where you might play, you know, the, what arena, where you might, you might sit and so starting to sort of broaden your horizons. >>Um, yeah, definitely. I mean, uh, women will look at a job spec, um, and have a completely different perspective from men. So men will look at it and they'll say, well, I can do about 38% of this. So I'm going to go for this job. Um, women will look at it unless they can do 85% of it, or they've done that they have experienced in 85% of it. They won't even go for the job. So we have to start to really broaden our view of the types of jobs we can go for the types of opportunities we can go for and start to think more, well, much more openly. So be >>More aggressive on the job. Applicants was one was >>One. Yeah. Broaden your horizons. Think about this, the transferable skill sets that you have, that you can take into other areas. And, and don't be, don't be fair fearful of things that you haven't done before. >>So I had a public failure startup that was very funded and then the public failure and it's traumatizing. And I dealt with that and you know, this whole failure is rewarded in Silicon Valley. That's BS, in my opinion, people tolerate failure, but they loved the comeback. That's part of learning is coming back. And, but, you know, and so I had to deal with that until I was in my own way as a guy, but there's a post in Silicon Valley going around today, around a woman who failed. And she didn't know whether she should be vulnerable or just be that what'd you call it the imposter syndrome, fake it till you make it. And she was saying, no, I want to be vulnerable. Because what she found is by being vulnerable, people were helping her. So that brings up the concept of vulnerability, male, female, and two in the modern world. We have social networks now. So lean is a great example of some gravity around peer groups. Can you guys talk about that? Does that come up at all on your radar, in terms of the dynamic there around men versus women being vulnerable versus being strong and also the notion of networks and how that could be? >>Well, I think vulnerability is often tied to shame and that fear of shame causes people to hold back in sharing their real stories. You said something very important and that's that people care about what you've learned along the way. They don't necessarily care about what, you know, they care about what you've learned. Most people are comfortable talking about what they've learned when they're on the other side of that. So it's not in the, in the middle of that trail here, when you are just feeling horrible, you're feeling horrible. You're feeling like a failure. You're feeling embarrassed, you're feeling shame. So the ability to kind of step up to that is it's a tall order. Now you talked about social networks in this environment of social media. Authenticity is so important, right? So it's that happy balance. If you're not all that comfortable with being completely naked in that vulnerability, maybe there's a happy medium where you can share some of the challenges and things that you've been facing while not necessarily going all the way down to the, you know, to the bare nub of it. Um, I think we're right. >>So authenticity will track the right alchemy of, of help or it relationship as a way to signal to people. I mean, I guess, and that's just me. I love this concept. I mean, I feel like I should get you guys with my life coach. This is my lifestyle. So this is the next one. So, okay. So that's cool. I love that theme. I love this topic because that really helps you get through to the other side and gain to the other side. You're on the comeback. That's a learning what you've learned and applying what you've learned is a growth mindset. Now there's a lot of women, my age, I'm 50 that I've grown through the ranks and they get up to the top. And you mentioned the numbers, aren't that significant on the seat level of women it's lonely yet. They're being asked to be mentors down to the new generation of ladies coming up or women. And, but they're lonely at the top. How do they deal with that? As you're moving closer to the top, have they talked about that >>Only at the top? And I would like still, I was a senior executive at a big company and found that loneliness to be quite palpable. Right? Um, it's part of the choice you make to be in that arena, stepping up to that position of leadership. It often means that you're distancing yourself. You're being more, you're more concerned with being respected than you are being liked. And you know, there there's a, there's a new game, right? New parameters around your relationships like CEO's, um, who find solace in their peer relationships. I think that same goes for women. You know, you, you need to actively cultivate your formal and informal networks and they may be with, with, uh, peers outside of your company, outside of your functional area. Those relationships though are so important because you can become isolated and insulated. Um, people may not always come to you with the, with the truth. >>And so, you know, making sure that you keep those lines of communication and mutual support open is really pivotal. Now you mentioned mentorship. Um, I think it is incumbent on senior women to reach down and find opportunities to mentor other women and sponsor other women. You know, there's mentorship and sponsorship, and both are crucial in terms of sort of direct feedback and developmental advice on the mentorship side, but then sponsorship literally actively opening doors for other women and, and reaching a hand and helping them come up to because that's often where we find a gap. People think I had to claw my way up. It was a lot of work. So I'm just going to sort of protect myself and hang out and let everybody else kind of go on their own journey. We talked a lot today about the need to sort of reach down and help other women. >>So the takeaway there is develop your formal informal networks. That's a foundational really critical linchpin to the whole success. Um, what about now, as we look at the progression going forward, um, the skill development, you mentioned the job applications, a lot of these jobs that are going to come with the next industrial revolution as Michael Dell was pointing out, don't even exist today. So there might be an opportunity here as we look to the future. Did that come up at all on the radar of your sessions? >>Well, we talked, I think it comes back to really transferable skill sets. You need to take a look at what, what you do and who you are, bring it up a level because I got to tell you if you can manage well in ambiguity, if you can lead and motivate people. I mean, if you, there, there are certain attributes that, that pick the job. Yeah. If you have those, if you have those attributes and those skills, you can learn a discipline, but those inherent leadership skills are going to pay off the big time as this industry continues to redefine. And as you say, jobs that we don't even know exist yet, suddenly come onto the table. >>What surprises you the most in this, in the conversation around modernization, as you talk with folks out there, what's a trend that surprised you that you kind of knew about, but, Oh my God, this is really more acute or more explosive than in a good way, or in bad way. Anything you can share, like the literally like, wow, this is really more pressing than I thought, or this is actually more amazing than I thought. >>Yeah. Um, one of the things the Rushman talked about is women supporting other women. I mean, sometimes we are the worst critics of other women and, uh, you know, female bosses can be harder on female employees and so on. And I think there's got to be that kind of sisterhood, um, uh, around, uh, all of us have been bring women up as, as, um, Susan has said, support other women, uh, make sure that you are their back and they are watching yours. And, uh, it will help with the loneliness factor, but it also helps to, to bring women forward. And I think that's always a surprise to me that women don't want to do that. And they, and they don't want to get involved in that. We should be paying that back and paying it. >>So is there anything that surprised you looking back at, and then the constitution here? >>I think I would echo what Stella said. It's, um, it's important to understand the role you may be playing in the plight that faces you. So, you know, we talk about women sometimes being their own worst enemy and trying to, to again, modernize and redefine what that relationship looks like and what that success looks like and how accountable we each are for, you know, moving forward and pushing the envelope. >>Okay. Final question. If you guys could each answer, this would be great. What advice would you give the people watching here live, and then on demand things that they could do to modernize their career in this change, uh, advice that you can surface and share insight around their opportunity, things that they could do differently or new, or, >>Yeah, I'll let Susan have the last word on this. Cause you'll have some fabulous advice, but you know, one thing I would say is, is, uh, be comfortable in your imperfection. You don't have to be perfect. You'd go for it, widen your spear of opportunities and, uh, you know, Matt Mo uh, Charlotte, your way and, and dream bigger and he dreamed bigger. You might, you know, you'll get somewhere bigger. Very good. Um, I would say first and foremost, one of the best things that you can do is challenge some of the beliefs that you might hold about what your potential next steps or career path might be, um, get clear on what your end game is for your life and what your values are, because that becomes a very important lens through which to view future opportunity, get, get really clear that you can always choose. >>Again. I think this fear of making a mistake and that you talked about fearlessness, um, you know, I think people tend to, to limit their opportunities because they think, wow, if I make this choice and it's mistake, then I'm done, but you can just turn around and make a new choice and begin again. And there are limitless choices that you can make. So a lot of this I find is mindset related. You know, we're heading into a, we are in a highly turbulent time. It's going to continue. We need to be agile in our thinking part of that is getting grounded in who we are and what are our potential could be getting clear on what we want because our jobs serve our life, not the, not the other way around and really sort of getting into the driver's seat versus letting whatever the change is, whether it's up here, the industry consolidation level, or whether it's down in, whether we're in the middle of a merger, or we've just gotten a new boss that we don't particularly click with, we can default to a victim mentality. So part of this is just saying, you know what, I am going to pick this thing up and I am going to manage to the change myself >>And we are living in a world where there's great opportunities, women of the world. Great segment. Thank you so much, Stella. We thank you so much, Susan, really great to have you guys sharing your insight here on the cube. Um, congratulations again, always my favorite conversation. I learned a lot, um, and I love, I feel like I'm learning so much and this is a world of diversity and it's great. And the outcome is diversity is fantastic. And I think that's what everyone's seeing. So congratulations on the great work. This is the queue here at EMC world 2016. I'm John for a, you're watching the cube >>Looking back at the history of it.