(upbeat electronic music) >> Okay, welcome back to Supercloud 2, live here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. Again, all day wall-to-wall coverage, just had a great interview with Walmart, we've got a Next interview coming up, you're going to hear from Bob Muglia and Tristan Handy, two experts, both experienced entrepreneurs, executives in technology. We're here to break down what just happened with Walmart, and what's coming up with George Gilbert, former colleague, Wikibon analyst, Gartner Analyst, and now independent investor and expert. George, great to see you, I know you're following this space. Like you read about it, remember the first days when Dataverse came out, we were talking about them coming out of Berkeley? >> Dave: Snowflake. >> John: Snowflake. >> Dave: Snowflake In the early days. >> We, collectively, have been chronicling the data movement since 2010, you were part of our team, now you've got your nose to the grindstone, you're seeing the next wave. What's this all about? Walmart building their own super cloud, we got Bob Muglia talking about how these next wave of apps are coming. What are the super apps? What's the super cloud to you? >> Well, this key's off Dave's really interesting questions to Walmart, which was like, how are they building their supercloud? 'Cause it makes a concrete example. But what was most interesting about his description of the Walmart WCMP, I forgot what it stood for. >> Dave: Walmart Cloud Native Platform. >> Walmart, okay. He was describing where the logic could run in these stateless containers, and maybe eventually serverless functions. But that's just it, and that's the paradigm of microservices, where the logic is in this stateless thing, where you can shoot it, or it fails, and you can spin up another one, and you've lost nothing. >> That was their triplet model. >> Yeah, in fact, and that was what they were trying to move to, where these things move fluidly between data centers. >> But there's a but, right? Which is they're all stateless apps in the cloud. >> George: Yeah. >> And all their stateful apps are on-prem and VMs. >> Or the stateful part of the apps are in VMs. >> Okay. >> And so if they really want to lift their super cloud layer off of this different provider's infrastructure, they're going to need a much more advanced software platform that manages data. And that goes to the -- >> Muglia and Handy, that you and I did, that's coming up next. So the big takeaway there, George, was, I'll set it up and you can chime in, a new breed of data apps is emerging, and this highly decentralized infrastructure. And Tristan Handy of DBT Labs has a sort of a solution to begin the journey today, Muglia is working on something that's way out there, describe what you learned from it. >> Okay. So to talk about what the new data apps are, and then the platform to run them, I go back to the using what will probably be seen as one of the first data app examples, was Uber, where you're describing entities in the real world, riders, drivers, routes, city, like a city plan, these are all defined by data. And the data is described in a structure called a knowledge graph, for lack of a, no one's come up with a better term. But that means the tough, the stuff that Jack built, which was all stateless and sits above cloud vendors' infrastructure, it needs an entirely different type of software that's much, much harder to build. And the way Bob described it is, you're going to need an entirely new data management infrastructure to handle this. But where, you know, we had this really colorful interview where it was like Rock 'Em Sock 'Em, but they weren't really that much in opposition to each other, because Tristan is going to define this layer, starting with like business intelligence metrics, where you're defining things like bookings, billings, and revenue, in business terms, not in SQL terms -- >> Well, business terms, if I can interrupt, he said the one thing we haven't figured out how to APIify is KPIs that sit inside of a data warehouse, and that's essentially what he's doing. >> George: That's what he's doing, yes. >> Right. And so then you can now expose those APIs, those KPIs, that sit inside of a data warehouse, or a data lake, a data store, whatever, through APIs. >> George: And the difference -- >> So what does that do for you? >> Okay, so all of a sudden, instead of working at technical data terms, where you're dealing with tables and columns and rows, you're dealing instead with business entities, using the Uber example of drivers, riders, routes, you know, ETA prices. But you can define, DBT will be able to define those progressively in richer terms, today they're just doing things like bookings, billings, and revenue. But Bob's point was, today, the data warehouse that actually runs that stuff, whereas DBT defines it, the data warehouse that runs it, you can't do it with relational technology >> Dave: Relational totality, cashing architecture. >> SQL, you can't -- >> SQL caching architectures in memory, you can't do it, you've got to rethink down to the way the data lake is laid out on the disk or cache. Which by the way, Thomas Hazel, who's speaking later, he's the chief scientist and founder at Chaos Search, he says, "I've actually done this," basically leave it in an S3 bucket, and I'm going to query it, you know, with no caching. >> All right, so what I hear you saying then, tell me if I got this right, there are some some things that are inadequate in today's world, that's not compatible with the Supercloud wave. >> Yeah. >> Specifically how you're using storage, and data, and stateful. >> Yes. >> And then the software that makes it run, is that what you're saying? >> George: Yeah. >> There's one other thing you mentioned to me, it's like, when you're using a CRM system, a human is inputting data. >> George: Nothing happens till the human does something. >> Right, nothing happens until that data entry occurs. What you're talking about is a world that self forms, polling data from the transaction system, or the ERP system, and then builds a plan without human intervention. >> Yeah. Something in the real world happens, where the user says, "I want a ride." And then the software goes out and says, "Okay, we got to match a driver to the rider, we got to calculate how long it takes to get there, how long to deliver 'em." That's not driven by a form, other than the first person hitting a button and saying, "I want a ride." All the other stuff happens autonomously, driven by data and analytics. >> But my question was different, Dave, so I want to get specific, because this is where the startups are going to come in, this is the disruption. Snowflake is a data warehouse that's in the cloud, they call it a data cloud, they refactored it, they did it differently, the success, we all know it looks like. These areas where it's inadequate for the future are areas that'll probably be either disrupted, or refactored. What is that? >> That's what Muglia's contention is, that the DBT can start adding that layer where you define these business entities, they're like mini digital twins, you can define them, but the data warehouse isn't strong enough to actually manage and run them. And Muglia is behind a company that is rethinking the database, really in a fundamental way that hasn't been done in 40 or 50 years. It's the first, in his contention, the first real rethink of database technology in a fundamental way since the rise of the relational database 50 years ago. >> And I think you admit it's a real Hail Mary, I mean it's quite a long shot right? >> George: Yes. >> Huge potential. >> But they're pretty far along. >> Well, we've been talking on theCUBE for 12 years, and what, 10 years going to AWS Reinvent, Dave, that no one database will rule the world, Amazon kind of showed that with them. What's different, is it databases are changing, or you can have multiple databases, or? >> It's a good question. And the reason we've had multiple different types of databases, each one specialized for a different type of workload, but actually what Muglia is behind is a new engine that would essentially, you'll never get rid of the data warehouse, or the equivalent engine in like a Databricks datalake house, but it's a new engine that manages the thing that describes all the data and holds it together, and that's the new application platform. >> George, we have one minute left, I want to get real quick thought, you're an investor, and we know your history, and the folks watching, George's got a deep pedigree in investment data, and we can testify against that. If you're going to invest in a company right now, if you're a customer, I got to make a bet, what does success look like for me, what do I want walking through my door, and what do I want to send out? What companies do I want to look at? What's the kind of of vendor do I want to evaluate? Which ones do I want to send home? >> Well, the first thing a customer really has to do when they're thinking about next gen applications, all the people have told you guys, "we got to get our data in order," getting that data in order means building an integrated view of all your data landscape, which is data coming out of all your applications. It starts with the data model, so, today, you basically extract data from all your operational systems, put it in this one giant, central place, like a warehouse or lake house, but eventually you want this, whether you call it a fabric or a mesh, it's all the data that describes how everything hangs together as in one big knowledge graph. There's different ways to implement that. And that's the most critical thing, 'cause that describes your Uber landscape, your Uber platform. >> That's going to power the digital transformation, which will power the business transformation, which powers the business model, which allows the builders to build -- >> Yes. >> Coders to code. That's Supercloud application. >> Yeah. >> George, great stuff. Next interview you're going to see right here is Bob Muglia and Tristan Handy, they're going to unpack this new wave. Great segment, really worth unpacking and reading between the lines with George, and Dave Vellante, and those two great guests. And then we'll come back here for the studio for more of the live coverage of Supercloud 2. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> OpenAI The company, and ChatGPT have taken the world by storm. Microsoft reportedly is investing an additional 10 billion dollars into the company. But in our view, while the hype around ChatGPT is justified, we don't believe OpenAI will lock up the market with its first mover advantage. Rather, we believe that success in this market will be directly proportional to the quality and quantity of data that a technology company has at its disposal, and the compute power that it could deploy to run its system. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the excitement around ChatGPT, and debate the premise that the company's early entry into the space may not confer winner take all advantage to OpenAI. And to do so, we welcome CUBE collaborator, alum, Sarbjeet Johal, (chuckles) and John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. Great to see you Sarbjeet, John. Really appreciate you guys coming to the program. >> Great to be on. >> Okay, so what is ChatGPT? Well, actually we asked ChatGPT, what is ChatGPT? So here's what it said. ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model developed by OpenAI that can generate human-like text. It could be fine tuned for a variety of language tasks, such as conversation, summarization, and language translation. So I asked it, give it to me in 50 words or less. How did it do? Anything to add? >> Yeah, think it did good. It's large language model, like previous models, but it started applying the transformers sort of mechanism to focus on what prompt you have given it to itself. And then also the what answer it gave you in the first, sort of, one sentence or two sentences, and then introspect on itself, like what I have already said to you. And so just work on that. So it it's self sort of focus if you will. It does, the transformers help the large language models to do that. >> So to your point, it's a large language model, and GPT stands for generative pre-trained transformer. >> And if you put the definition back up there again, if you put it back up on the screen, let's see it back up. Okay, it actually missed the large, word large. So one of the problems with ChatGPT, it's not always accurate. It's actually a large language model, and it says state of the art language model. And if you look at Google, Google has dominated AI for many times and they're well known as being the best at this. And apparently Google has their own large language model, LLM, in play and have been holding it back to release because of backlash on the accuracy. Like just in that example you showed is a great point. They got almost right, but they missed the key word. >> You know what's funny about that John, is I had previously asked it in my prompt to give me it in less than a hundred words, and it was too long, I said I was too long for Breaking Analysis, and there it went into the fact that it's a large language model. So it largely, it gave me a really different answer the, for both times. So, but it's still pretty amazing for those of you who haven't played with it yet. And one of the best examples that I saw was Ben Charrington from This Week In ML AI podcast. And I stumbled on this thanks to Brian Gracely, who was listening to one of his Cloudcasts. Basically what Ben did is he took, he prompted ChatGPT to interview ChatGPT, and he simply gave the system the prompts, and then he ran the questions and answers into this avatar builder and sped it up 2X so it didn't sound like a machine. And voila, it was amazing. So John is ChatGPT going to take over as a cube host? >> Well, I was thinking, we get the questions in advance sometimes from PR people. We should actually just plug it in ChatGPT, add it to our notes, and saying, "Is this good enough for you? Let's ask the real question." So I think, you know, I think there's a lot of heavy lifting that gets done. I think the ChatGPT is a phenomenal revolution. I think it highlights the use case. Like that example we showed earlier. It gets most of it right. So it's directionally correct and it feels like it's an answer, but it's not a hundred percent accurate. And I think that's where people are seeing value in it. Writing marketing, copy, brainstorming, guest list, gift list for somebody. Write me some lyrics to a song. Give me a thesis about healthcare policy in the United States. It'll do a bang up job, and then you got to go in and you can massage it. So we're going to do three quarters of the work. That's why plagiarism and schools are kind of freaking out. And that's why Microsoft put 10 billion in, because why wouldn't this be a feature of Word, or the OS to help it do stuff on behalf of the user. So linguistically it's a beautiful thing. You can input a string and get a good answer. It's not a search result. >> And we're going to get your take on on Microsoft and, but it kind of levels the playing- but ChatGPT writes better than I do, Sarbjeet, and I know you have some good examples too. You mentioned the Reed Hastings example. >> Yeah, I was listening to Reed Hastings fireside chat with ChatGPT, and the answers were coming as sort of voice, in the voice format. And it was amazing what, he was having very sort of philosophy kind of talk with the ChatGPT, the longer sentences, like he was going on, like, just like we are talking, he was talking for like almost two minutes and then ChatGPT was answering. It was not one sentence question, and then a lot of answers from ChatGPT and yeah, you're right. I, this is our ability. I've been thinking deep about this since yesterday, we talked about, like, we want to do this segment. The data is fed into the data model. It can be the current data as well, but I think that, like, models like ChatGPT, other companies will have those too. They can, they're democratizing the intelligence, but they're not creating intelligence yet, definitely yet I can say that. They will give you all the finite answers. Like, okay, how do you do this for loop in Java, versus, you know, C sharp, and as a programmer you can do that, in, but they can't tell you that, how to write a new algorithm or write a new search algorithm for you. They cannot create a secretive code for you to- >> Not yet. >> Have competitive advantage. >> Not yet, not yet. >> but you- >> Can Google do that today? >> No one really can. The reasoning side of the data is, we talked about at our Supercloud event, with Zhamak Dehghani who's was CEO of, now of Nextdata. This next wave of data intelligence is going to come from entrepreneurs that are probably cross discipline, computer science and some other discipline. But they're going to be new things, for example, data, metadata, and data. It's hard to do reasoning like a human being, so that needs more data to train itself. So I think the first gen of this training module for the large language model they have is a corpus of text. Lot of that's why blog posts are, but the facts are wrong and sometimes out of context, because that contextual reasoning takes time, it takes intelligence. So machines need to become intelligent, and so therefore they need to be trained. So you're going to start to see, I think, a lot of acceleration on training the data sets. And again, it's only as good as the data you can get. And again, proprietary data sets will be a huge winner. Anyone who's got a large corpus of content, proprietary content like theCUBE or SiliconANGLE as a publisher will benefit from this. Large FinTech companies, anyone with large proprietary data will probably be a big winner on this generative AI wave, because it just, it will eat that up, and turn that back into something better. So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things to look at here. And certainly productivity's going to be off the charts for vanilla and the internet is going to get swarmed with vanilla content. So if you're in the content business, and you're an original content producer of any kind, you're going to be not vanilla, so you're going to be better. So I think there's so much at play Dave (indistinct). >> I think the playing field has been risen, so we- >> Risen and leveled? >> Yeah, and leveled to certain extent. So it's now like that few people as consumers, as consumers of AI, we will have a advantage and others cannot have that advantage. So it will be democratized. That's, I'm sure about that. But if you take the example of calculator, when the calculator came in, and a lot of people are, "Oh, people can't do math anymore because calculator is there." right? So it's a similar sort of moment, just like a calculator for the next level. But, again- >> I see it more like open source, Sarbjeet, because like if you think about what ChatGPT's doing, you do a query and it comes from somewhere the value of a post from ChatGPT is just a reuse of AI. The original content accent will be come from a human. So if I lay out a paragraph from ChatGPT, did some heavy lifting on some facts, I check the facts, save me about maybe- >> Yeah, it's productive. >> An hour writing, and then I write a killer two, three sentences of, like, sharp original thinking or critical analysis. I then took that body of work, open source content, and then laid something on top of it. >> And Sarbjeet's example is a good one, because like if the calculator kids don't do math as well anymore, the slide rule, remember we had slide rules as kids, remember we first started using Waze, you know, we were this minority and you had an advantage over other drivers. Now Waze is like, you know, social traffic, you know, navigation, everybody had, you know- >> All the back roads are crowded. >> They're car crowded. (group laughs) Exactly. All right, let's, let's move on. What about this notion that futurist Ray Amara put forth and really Amara's Law that we're showing here, it's, the law is we, you know, "We tend to overestimate the effect of technology in the short run and underestimate it in the long run." Is that the case, do you think, with ChatGPT? What do you think Sarbjeet? >> I think that's true actually. There's a lot of, >> We don't debate this. >> There's a lot of awe, like when people see the results from ChatGPT, they say what, what the heck? Like, it can do this? But then if you use it more and more and more, and I ask the set of similar question, not the same question, and it gives you like same answer. It's like reading from the same bucket of text in, the interior read (indistinct) where the ChatGPT, you will see that in some couple of segments. It's very, it sounds so boring that the ChatGPT is coming out the same two sentences every time. So it is kind of good, but it's not as good as people think it is right now. But we will have, go through this, you know, hype sort of cycle and get realistic with it. And then in the long term, I think it's a great thing in the short term, it's not something which will (indistinct) >> What's your counter point? You're saying it's not. >> I, no I think the question was, it's hyped up in the short term and not it's underestimated long term. That's what I think what he said, quote. >> Yes, yeah. That's what he said. >> Okay, I think that's wrong with this, because this is a unique, ChatGPT is a unique kind of impact and it's very generational. People have been comparing it, I have been comparing to the internet, like the web, web browser Mosaic and Netscape, right, Navigator. I mean, I clearly still remember the days seeing Navigator for the first time, wow. And there weren't not many sites you could go to, everyone typed in, you know, cars.com, you know. >> That (indistinct) wasn't that overestimated, the overhyped at the beginning and underestimated. >> No, it was, it was underestimated long run, people thought. >> But that Amara's law. >> That's what is. >> No, they said overestimated? >> Overestimated near term underestimated- overhyped near term, underestimated long term. I got, right I mean? >> Well, I, yeah okay, so I would then agree, okay then- >> We were off the charts about the internet in the early days, and it actually exceeded our expectations. >> Well there were people who were, like, poo-pooing it early on. So when the browser came out, people were like, "Oh, the web's a toy for kids." I mean, in 1995 the web was a joke, right? So '96, you had online populations growing, so you had structural changes going on around the browser, internet population. And then that replaced other things, direct mail, other business activities that were once analog then went to the web, kind of read only as you, as we always talk about. So I think that's a moment where the hype long term, the smart money, and the smart industry experts all get the long term. And in this case, there's more poo-pooing in the short term. "Ah, it's not a big deal, it's just AI." I've heard many people poo-pooing ChatGPT, and a lot of smart people saying, "No this is next gen, this is different and it's only going to get better." So I think people are estimating a big long game on this one. >> So you're saying it's bifurcated. There's those who say- >> Yes. >> Okay, all right, let's get to the heart of the premise, and possibly the debate for today's episode. Will OpenAI's early entry into the market confer sustainable competitive advantage for the company. And if you look at the history of tech, the technology industry, it's kind of littered with first mover failures. Altair, IBM, Tandy, Commodore, they and Apple even, they were really early in the PC game. They took a backseat to Dell who came in the scene years later with a better business model. Netscape, you were just talking about, was all the rage in Silicon Valley, with the first browser, drove up all the housing prices out here. AltaVista was the first search engine to really, you know, index full text. >> Owned by Dell, I mean DEC. >> Owned by Digital. >> Yeah, Digital Equipment >> Compaq bought it. And of course as an aside, Digital, they wanted to showcase their hardware, right? Their super computer stuff. And then so Friendster and MySpace, they came before Facebook. The iPhone certainly wasn't the first mobile device. So lots of failed examples, but there are some recent successes like AWS and cloud. >> You could say smartphone. So I mean. >> Well I know, and you can, we can parse this so we'll debate it. Now Twitter, you could argue, had first mover advantage. You kind of gave me that one John. Bitcoin and crypto clearly had first mover advantage, and sustaining that. Guys, will OpenAI make it to the list on the right with ChatGPT, what do you think? >> I think categorically as a company, it probably won't, but as a category, I think what they're doing will, so OpenAI as a company, they get funding, there's power dynamics involved. Microsoft put a billion dollars in early on, then they just pony it up. Now they're reporting 10 billion more. So, like, if the browsers, Microsoft had competitive advantage over Netscape, and used monopoly power, and convicted by the Department of Justice for killing Netscape with their monopoly, Netscape should have had won that battle, but Microsoft killed it. In this case, Microsoft's not killing it, they're buying into it. So I think the embrace extend Microsoft power here makes OpenAI vulnerable for that one vendor solution. So the AI as a company might not make the list, but the category of what this is, large language model AI, is probably will be on the right hand side. >> Okay, we're going to come back to the government intervention and maybe do some comparisons, but what are your thoughts on this premise here? That, it will basically set- put forth the premise that it, that ChatGPT, its early entry into the market will not confer competitive advantage to >> For OpenAI. >> To Open- Yeah, do you agree with that? >> I agree with that actually. It, because Google has been at it, and they have been holding back, as John said because of the scrutiny from the Fed, right, so- >> And privacy too. >> And the privacy and the accuracy as well. But I think Sam Altman and the company on those guys, right? They have put this in a hasty way out there, you know, because it makes mistakes, and there are a lot of questions around the, sort of, where the content is coming from. You saw that as your example, it just stole the content, and without your permission, you know? >> Yeah. So as quick this aside- >> And it codes on people's behalf and the, those codes are wrong. So there's a lot of, sort of, false information it's putting out there. So it's a very vulnerable thing to do what Sam Altman- >> So even though it'll get better, others will compete. >> So look, just side note, a term which Reid Hoffman used a little bit. Like he said, it's experimental launch, like, you know, it's- >> It's pretty damn good. >> It is clever because according to Sam- >> It's more than clever. It's good. >> It's awesome, if you haven't used it. I mean you write- you read what it writes and you go, "This thing writes so well, it writes so much better than you." >> The human emotion drives that too. I think that's a big thing. But- >> I Want to add one more- >> Make your last point. >> Last one. Okay. So, but he's still holding back. He's conducting quite a few interviews. If you want to get the gist of it, there's an interview with StrictlyVC interview from yesterday with Sam Altman. Listen to that one it's an eye opening what they want- where they want to take it. But my last one I want to make it on this point is that Satya Nadella yesterday did an interview with Wall Street Journal. I think he was doing- >> You were not impressed. >> I was not impressed because he was pushing it too much. So Sam Altman's holding back so there's less backlash. >> Got 10 billion reasons to push. >> I think he's almost- >> Microsoft just laid off 10000 people. Hey ChatGPT, find me a job. You know like. (group laughs) >> He's overselling it to an extent that I think it will backfire on Microsoft. And he's over promising a lot of stuff right now, I think. I don't know why he's very jittery about all these things. And he did the same thing during Ignite as well. So he said, "Oh, this AI will write code for you and this and that." Like you called him out- >> The hyperbole- >> During your- >> from Satya Nadella, he's got a lot of hyperbole. (group talks over each other) >> All right, Let's, go ahead. >> Well, can I weigh in on the whole- >> Yeah, sure. >> Microsoft thing on whether OpenAI, here's the take on this. I think it's more like the browser moment to me, because I could relate to that experience with ChatG, personally, emotionally, when I saw that, and I remember vividly- >> You mean that aha moment (indistinct). >> Like this is obviously the future. Anything else in the old world is dead, website's going to be everywhere. It was just instant dot connection for me. And a lot of other smart people who saw this. Lot of people by the way, didn't see it. Someone said the web's a toy. At the company I was worked for at the time, Hewlett Packard, they like, they could have been in, they had invented HTML, and so like all this stuff was, like, they just passed, the web was just being passed over. But at that time, the browser got better, more websites came on board. So the structural advantage there was online web usage was growing, online user population. So that was growing exponentially with the rise of the Netscape browser. So OpenAI could stay on the right side of your list as durable, if they leverage the category that they're creating, can get the scale. And if they can get the scale, just like Twitter, that failed so many times that they still hung around. So it was a product that was always successful, right? So I mean, it should have- >> You're right, it was terrible, we kept coming back. >> The fail whale, but it still grew. So OpenAI has that moment. They could do it if Microsoft doesn't meddle too much with too much power as a vendor. They could be the Netscape Navigator, without the anti-competitive behavior of somebody else. So to me, they have the pole position. So they have an opportunity. So if not, if they don't execute, then there's opportunity. There's not a lot of barriers to entry, vis-a-vis say the CapEx of say a cloud company like AWS. You can't replicate that, Many have tried, but I think you can replicate OpenAI. >> And we're going to talk about that. Okay, so real quick, I want to bring in some ETR data. This isn't an ETR heavy segment, only because this so new, you know, they haven't coverage yet, but they do cover AI. So basically what we're seeing here is a slide on the vertical axis's net score, which is a measure of spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis's is presence in the dataset. Think of it as, like, market presence. And in the insert right there, you can see how the dots are plotted, the two columns. And so, but the key point here that we want to make, there's a bunch of companies on the left, is he like, you know, DataRobot and C3 AI and some others, but the big whales, Google, AWS, Microsoft, are really dominant in this market. So that's really the key takeaway that, can we- >> I notice IBM is way low. >> Yeah, IBM's low, and actually bring that back up and you, but then you see Oracle who actually is injecting. So I guess that's the other point is, you're not necessarily going to go buy AI, and you know, build your own AI, you're going to, it's going to be there and, it, Salesforce is going to embed it into its platform, the SaaS companies, and you're going to purchase AI. You're not necessarily going to build it. But some companies obviously are. >> I mean to quote IBM's general manager Rob Thomas, "You can't have AI with IA." information architecture and David Flynn- >> You can't Have AI without IA >> without, you can't have AI without IA. You can't have, if you have an Information Architecture, you then can power AI. Yesterday David Flynn, with Hammersmith, was on our Supercloud. He was pointing out that the relationship of storage, where you store things, also impacts the data and stressablity, and Zhamak from Nextdata, she was pointing out that same thing. So the data problem factors into all this too, Dave. >> So you got the big cloud and internet giants, they're all poised to go after this opportunity. Microsoft is investing up to 10 billion. Google's code red, which was, you know, the headline in the New York Times. Of course Apple is there and several alternatives in the market today. Guys like Chinchilla, Bloom, and there's a company Jasper and several others, and then Lena Khan looms large and the government's around the world, EU, US, China, all taking notice before the market really is coalesced around a single player. You know, John, you mentioned Netscape, they kind of really, the US government was way late to that game. It was kind of game over. And Netscape, I remember Barksdale was like, "Eh, we're going to be selling software in the enterprise anyway." and then, pshew, the company just dissipated. So, but it looks like the US government, especially with Lena Khan, they're changing the definition of antitrust and what the cause is to go after people, and they're really much more aggressive. It's only what, two years ago that (indistinct). >> Yeah, the problem I have with the federal oversight is this, they're always like late to the game, and they're slow to catch up. So in other words, they're working on stuff that should have been solved a year and a half, two years ago around some of the social networks hiding behind some of the rules around open web back in the days, and I think- >> But they're like 15 years late to that. >> Yeah, and now they got this new thing on top of it. So like, I just worry about them getting their fingers. >> But there's only two years, you know, OpenAI. >> No, but the thing (indistinct). >> No, they're still fighting other battles. But the problem with government is that they're going to label Big Tech as like a evil thing like Pharma, it's like smoke- >> You know Lena Khan wants to kill Big Tech, there's no question. >> So I think Big Tech is getting a very seriously bad rap. And I think anything that the government does that shades darkness on tech, is politically motivated in most cases. You can almost look at everything, and my 80 20 rule is in play here. 80% of the government activity around tech is bullshit, it's politically motivated, and the 20% is probably relevant, but off the mark and not organized. >> Well market forces have always been the determining factor of success. The governments, you know, have been pretty much failed. I mean you look at IBM's antitrust, that, what did that do? The market ultimately beat them. You look at Microsoft back in the day, right? Windows 95 was peaking, the government came in. But you know, like you said, they missed the web, right, and >> so they were hanging on- >> There's nobody in government >> to Windows. >> that actually knows- >> And so, you, I think you're right. It's market forces that are going to determine this. But Sarbjeet, what do you make of Microsoft's big bet here, you weren't impressed with with Nadella. How do you think, where are they going to apply it? Is this going to be a Hail Mary for Bing, or is it going to be applied elsewhere? What do you think. >> They are saying that they will, sort of, weave this into their products, office products, productivity and also to write code as well, developer productivity as well. That's a big play for them. But coming back to your antitrust sort of comments, right? I believe the, your comment was like, oh, fed was late 10 years or 15 years earlier, but now they're two years. But things are moving very fast now as compared to they used to move. >> So two years is like 10 Years. >> Yeah, two years is like 10 years. Just want to make that point. (Dave laughs) This thing is going like wildfire. Any new tech which comes in that I think they're going against distribution channels. Lina Khan has commented time and again that the marketplace model is that she wants to have some grip on. Cloud marketplaces are a kind of monopolistic kind of way. >> I don't, I don't see this, I don't see a Chat AI. >> You told me it's not Bing, you had an interesting comment. >> No, no. First of all, this is great from Microsoft. If you're Microsoft- >> Why? >> Because Microsoft doesn't have the AI chops that Google has, right? Google is got so much core competency on how they run their search, how they run their backends, their cloud, even though they don't get a lot of cloud market share in the enterprise, they got a kick ass cloud cause they needed one. >> Totally. >> They've invented SRE. I mean Google's development and engineering chops are off the scales, right? Amazon's got some good chops, but Google's got like 10 times more chops than AWS in my opinion. Cloud's a whole different story. Microsoft gets AI, they get a playbook, they get a product they can render into, the not only Bing, productivity software, helping people write papers, PowerPoint, also don't forget the cloud AI can super help. We had this conversation on our Supercloud event, where AI's going to do a lot of the heavy lifting around understanding observability and managing service meshes, to managing microservices, to turning on and off applications, and or maybe writing code in real time. So there's a plethora of use cases for Microsoft to deploy this. combined with their R and D budgets, they can then turbocharge more research, build on it. So I think this gives them a car in the game, Google may have pole position with AI, but this puts Microsoft right in the game, and they already have a lot of stuff going on. But this just, I mean everything gets lifted up. Security, cloud, productivity suite, everything. >> What's under the hood at Google, and why aren't they talking about it? I mean they got to be freaked out about this. No? Or do they have kind of a magic bullet? >> I think they have the, they have the chops definitely. Magic bullet, I don't know where they are, as compared to the ChatGPT 3 or 4 models. Like they, but if you look at the online sort of activity and the videos put out there from Google folks, Google technology folks, that's account you should look at if you are looking there, they have put all these distinctions what ChatGPT 3 has used, they have been talking about for a while as well. So it's not like it's a secret thing that you cannot replicate. As you said earlier, like in the beginning of this segment, that anybody who has more data and the capacity to process that data, which Google has both, I think they will win this. >> Obviously living in Palo Alto where the Google founders are, and Google's headquarters next town over we have- >> We're so close to them. We have inside information on some of the thinking and that hasn't been reported by any outlet yet. And that is, is that, from what I'm hearing from my sources, is Google has it, they don't want to release it for many reasons. One is it might screw up their search monopoly, one, two, they're worried about the accuracy, 'cause Google will get sued. 'Cause a lot of people are jamming on this ChatGPT as, "Oh it does everything for me." when it's clearly not a hundred percent accurate all the time. >> So Lina Kahn is looming, and so Google's like be careful. >> Yeah so Google's just like, this is the third, could be a third rail. >> But the first thing you said is a concern. >> Well no. >> The disruptive (indistinct) >> What they will do is do a Waymo kind of thing, where they spin out a separate company. >> They're doing that. >> The discussions happening, they're going to spin out the separate company and put it over there, and saying, "This is AI, got search over there, don't touch that search, 'cause that's where all the revenue is." (chuckles) >> So, okay, so that's how they deal with the Clay Christensen dilemma. What's the business model here? I mean it's not advertising, right? Is it to charge you for a query? What, how do you make money at this? >> It's a good question, I mean my thinking is, first of all, it's cool to type stuff in and see a paper get written, or write a blog post, or gimme a marketing slogan for this or that or write some code. I think the API side of the business will be critical. And I think Howie Xu, I know you're going to reference some of his comments yesterday on Supercloud, I think this brings a whole 'nother user interface into technology consumption. I think the business model, not yet clear, but it will probably be some sort of either API and developer environment or just a straight up free consumer product, with some sort of freemium backend thing for business. >> And he was saying too, it's natural language is the way in which you're going to interact with these systems. >> I think it's APIs, it's APIs, APIs, APIs, because these people who are cooking up these models, and it takes a lot of compute power to train these and to, for inference as well. Somebody did the analysis on the how many cents a Google search costs to Google, and how many cents the ChatGPT query costs. It's, you know, 100x or something on that. You can take a look at that. >> A 100x on which side? >> You're saying two orders of magnitude more expensive for ChatGPT >> Much more, yeah. >> Than for Google. >> It's very expensive. >> So Google's got the data, they got the infrastructure and they got, you're saying they got the cost (indistinct) >> No actually it's a simple query as well, but they are trying to put together the answers, and they're going through a lot more data versus index data already, you know. >> Let me clarify, you're saying that Google's version of ChatGPT is more efficient? >> No, I'm, I'm saying Google search results. >> Ah, search results. >> What are used to today, but cheaper. >> But that, does that, is that going to confer advantage to Google's large language (indistinct)? >> It will, because there were deep science (indistinct). >> Google, I don't think Google search is doing a large language model on their search, it's keyword search. You know, what's the weather in Santa Cruz? Or how, what's the weather going to be? Or you know, how do I find this? Now they have done a smart job of doing some things with those queries, auto complete, re direct navigation. But it's, it's not entity. It's not like, "Hey, what's Dave Vellante thinking this week in Breaking Analysis?" ChatGPT might get that, because it'll get your Breaking Analysis, it'll synthesize it. There'll be some, maybe some clips. It'll be like, you know, I mean. >> Well I got to tell you, I asked ChatGPT to, like, I said, I'm going to enter a transcript of a discussion I had with Nir Zuk, the CTO of Palo Alto Networks, And I want you to write a 750 word blog. I never input the transcript. It wrote a 750 word blog. It attributed quotes to him, and it just pulled a bunch of stuff that, and said, okay, here it is. It talked about Supercloud, it defined Supercloud. >> It's made, it makes you- >> Wow, But it was a big lie. It was fraudulent, but still, blew me away. >> Again, vanilla content and non accurate content. So we are going to see a surge of misinformation on steroids, but I call it the vanilla content. Wow, that's just so boring, (indistinct). >> There's so many dangers. >> Make your point, cause we got to, almost out of time. >> Okay, so the consumption, like how do you consume this thing. As humans, we are consuming it and we are, like, getting a nicely, like, surprisingly shocked, you know, wow, that's cool. It's going to increase productivity and all that stuff, right? And on the danger side as well, the bad actors can take hold of it and create fake content and we have the fake sort of intelligence, if you go out there. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we are as humans are consuming this as language. Like we read that, we listen to it, whatever format we consume that is, but the ultimate usage of that will be when the machines can take that output from likes of ChatGPT, and do actions based on that. The robots can work, the robot can paint your house, we were talking about, right? Right now we can't do that. >> Data apps. >> So the data has to be ingested by the machines. It has to be digestible by the machines. And the machines cannot digest unorganized data right now, we will get better on the ingestion side as well. So we are getting better. >> Data, reasoning, insights, and action. >> I like that mall, paint my house. >> So, okay- >> By the way, that means drones that'll come in. Spray painting your house. >> Hey, it wasn't too long ago that robots couldn't climb stairs, as I like to point out. Okay, and of course it's no surprise the venture capitalists are lining up to eat at the trough, as I'd like to say. Let's hear, you'd referenced this earlier, John, let's hear what AI expert Howie Xu said at the Supercloud event, about what it takes to clone ChatGPT. Please, play the clip. >> So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest to get a, you know, another shot to the openAI sort of the level." You know, I did a (indistinct) >> Line up. >> A hundred million dollar is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So a hundred- >> Guys a hundred million dollars, that's an astoundingly low figure. What do you make of it? >> I was in an interview with, I was interviewing, I think he said hundred million or so, but in the hundreds of millions, not a billion right? >> You were trying to get him up, you were like "Hundreds of millions." >> Well I think, I- >> He's like, eh, not 10, not a billion. >> Well first of all, Howie Xu's an expert machine learning. He's at Zscaler, he's a machine learning AI guy. But he comes from VMware, he's got his technology pedigrees really off the chart. Great friend of theCUBE and kind of like a CUBE analyst for us. And he's smart. He's right. I think the barriers to entry from a dollar standpoint are lower than say the CapEx required to compete with AWS. Clearly, the CapEx spending to build all the tech for the run a cloud. >> And you don't need a huge sales force. >> And in some case apps too, it's the same thing. But I think it's not that hard. >> But am I right about that? You don't need a huge sales force either. It's, what, you know >> If the product's good, it will sell, this is a new era. The better mouse trap will win. This is the new economics in software, right? So- >> Because you look at the amount of money Lacework, and Snyk, Snowflake, Databrooks. Look at the amount of money they've raised. I mean it's like a billion dollars before they get to IPO or more. 'Cause they need promotion, they need go to market. You don't need (indistinct) >> OpenAI's been working on this for multiple five years plus it's, hasn't, wasn't born yesterday. Took a lot of years to get going. And Sam is depositioning all the success, because he's trying to manage expectations, To your point Sarbjeet, earlier. It's like, yeah, he's trying to "Whoa, whoa, settle down everybody, (Dave laughs) it's not that great." because he doesn't want to fall into that, you know, hero and then get taken down, so. >> It may take a 100 million or 150 or 200 million to train the model. But to, for the inference to, yeah to for the inference machine, It will take a lot more, I believe. >> Give it, so imagine, >> Because- >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Go ahead. But because it consumes a lot more compute cycles and it's certain level of storage and everything, right, which they already have. So I think to compute is different. To frame the model is a different cost. But to run the business is different, because I think 100 million can go into just fighting the Fed. >> Well there's a flywheel too. >> Oh that's (indistinct) >> (indistinct) >> We are running the business, right? >> It's an interesting number, but it's also kind of, like, context to it. So here, a hundred million spend it, you get there, but you got to factor in the fact that the ways companies win these days is critical mass scale, hitting a flywheel. If they can keep that flywheel of the value that they got going on and get better, you can almost imagine a marketplace where, hey, we have proprietary data, we're SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. We have proprietary content, CUBE videos, transcripts. Well wouldn't it be great if someone in a marketplace could sell a module for us, right? We buy that, Amazon's thing and things like that. So if they can get a marketplace going where you can apply to data sets that may be proprietary, you can start to see this become bigger. And so I think the key barriers to entry is going to be success. I'll give you an example, Reddit. Reddit is successful and it's hard to copy, not because of the software. >> They built the moat. >> Because you can, buy Reddit open source software and try To compete. >> They built the moat with their community. >> Their community, their scale, their user expectation. Twitter, we referenced earlier, that thing should have gone under the first two years, but there was such a great emotional product. People would tolerate the fail whale. And then, you know, well that was a whole 'nother thing. >> Then a plane landed in (John laughs) the Hudson and it was over. >> I think verticals, a lot of verticals will build applications using these models like for lawyers, for doctors, for scientists, for content creators, for- >> So you'll have many hundreds of millions of dollars investments that are going to be seeping out. If, all right, we got to wrap, if you had to put odds on it that that OpenAI is going to be the leader, maybe not a winner take all leader, but like you look at like Amazon and cloud, they're not winner take all, these aren't necessarily winner take all markets. It's not necessarily a zero sum game, but let's call it winner take most. What odds would you give that open AI 10 years from now will be in that position. >> If I'm 0 to 10 kind of thing? >> Yeah, it's like horse race, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, even money, 10 to 1, 50 to 1. >> Maybe 2 to 1, >> 2 to 1, that's pretty low odds. That's basically saying they're the favorite, they're the front runner. Would you agree with that? >> I'd say 4 to 1. >> Yeah, I was going to say I'm like a 5 to 1, 7 to 1 type of person, 'cause I'm a skeptic with, you know, there's so much competition, but- >> I think they're definitely the leader. I mean you got to say, I mean. >> Oh there's no question. There's no question about it. >> The question is can they execute? >> They're not Friendster, is what you're saying. >> They're not Friendster and they're more like Twitter and Reddit where they have momentum. If they can execute on the product side, and if they don't stumble on that, they will continue to have the lead. >> If they say stay neutral, as Sam is, has been saying, that, hey, Microsoft is one of our partners, if you look at their company model, how they have structured the company, then they're going to pay back to the investors, like Microsoft is the biggest one, up to certain, like by certain number of years, they're going to pay back from all the money they make, and after that, they're going to give the money back to the public, to the, I don't know who they give it to, like non-profit or something. (indistinct) >> Okay, the odds are dropping. (group talks over each other) That's a good point though >> Actually they might have done that to fend off the criticism of this. But it's really interesting to see the model they have adopted. >> The wildcard in all this, My last word on this is that, if there's a developer shift in how developers and data can come together again, we have conferences around the future of data, Supercloud and meshs versus, you know, how the data world, coding with data, how that evolves will also dictate, 'cause a wild card could be a shift in the landscape around how developers are using either machine learning or AI like techniques to code into their apps, so. >> That's fantastic insight. I can't thank you enough for your time, on the heels of Supercloud 2, really appreciate it. All right, thanks to John and Sarbjeet for the outstanding conversation today. Special thanks to the Palo Alto studio team. My goodness, Anderson, this great backdrop. You guys got it all out here, I'm jealous. And Noah, really appreciate it, Chuck, Andrew Frick and Cameron, Andrew Frick switching, Cameron on the video lake, great job. And Alex Myerson, he's on production, manages the podcast for us, Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and our newsletters. Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE, does some great editing, thanks to all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast, wherever you listen. Publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Want to get in touch, email me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post. And by all means, check out etr.ai. They got really great survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, We'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (electronic music)

(cheery music) >> Thanks, Adam. Thanks for everyone in the studio. Dave, we've got some great main stage CUBE interviews. Normally we'll sit at the desk, and do a remote, but since it's a virtual event, and a physical event, it's a hybrid event. We've got two amazing Google leaders to talk with us. I had a chance to sit down with Amol who was gone yesterday during our breaking news segment. They had the big news. We had two great guests, Amol Phadke. He's our first interview. He's the head of Google's telecom industry. Again, he came in, broke into our segment yesterday with breaking news. Obviously released with Ericsson, and the O-RAN Alliance. I had a great chance to chat with him. A wide ranging conversation for 13 minutes. Enjoy my interview with Amol, right now. (cheery music) Well welcome to the CUBE's coverage for Mobile World Congress, 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of the CUBE. We're here in person as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. We're on the ground at Mobile World Congress, bringing all the action here. We're remote with Amol Phadke, who's the Managing Director of the Telecom Industry Solutions team at Google Cloud, a big leader, and driving a lot of the change. Amol, thank you for coming on theCUBE here in the hybrid event from Mobile World Congress. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me, So, hybrid event, which means it's in person, we're on the floor, as well as doing remote interviews and people are virtual. This is the new normal. Kind of highlights where we are in this telecom world, because the last time, Mobile World Congress actually had a physical event was winter of 2019. A ton has changed in the industry. Look at the momentum at the Edge. Hybrid cloud is now standard. Multi-cloud is being set up as we speak. This is all now the new normal, what is your take? And so it's pretty active in your industry. Tell us your opinion. >> Yes, John I mean the last two years have been seismic to say the least, right? I mean, in terms of the change that the CSP industries had had to do. You know, John, in the last two years, the importance of a CSP infrastructure has never become so important, right? The infrastructure is paramount. I'm talking to you remotely over the CSP infrastructure right now, and everything that we are doing in the last two years, whether it's working, or studying, or entertaining ourselves, all on that CSP infrastructure. So from that perspective, they are really becoming a critical national global information fabric on which the society is actually depending on. And that we see at Google as well, in the sense that we have seen up to 60% increase in demand, John, in the last two years, for that infrastructure. And then when we look at the industry itself, unfortunately all of that huge demand is not translating into revenue, because as an industry, the revenue is still flat-lining. In fact, the forecasted revenue for globally, for all the industry over the next 12 months is three to five per cent negative on revenue, right? So one starts to think, how come there is so much demand over the last two years, post-pandemic, and that's not translating to revenue? Having said that, the other thing that's happening is this demand is driving significant CapEx and OPEX investments in the infrastructure, as much as eight to $900 billion over the next decade is going to get spent in this infrastructure, from our perspective, Which means it's really a perfect storm. John, We have massive demand, massive need to invest to meet that demand, yet not translating to revenue, and the crux of all this is customer experience, because ultimately all of that translates into not having that kind of radically disruptive or transformational customer experience, right? So that's a backdrop that we find ourselves in the industry, and that really sets the stage for us to look at these challenges in terms of how does the CSP industry as a whole, grow top line, radically transform CSPCO, at the same time, reinventing the customer experience and finding those capital efficiencies. It's almost an impossible problem to find solution. >> It's a perfect storm. The waves are kind of coming together to form one big wave. You mentioned CapEx and OPEX. That's obviously changing the investments of their post-pandemic growth, and change in user behavior and expectations. The modern applications are being built on top of the infrastructure, that's changing. All of this is being driven by Cloud Native, and that's clear. You're seeing a lot more open kind of approaches, IT and OT coming together, whatever you want to do, this is just, it's a collision, right? It's a collision of many things. And this positive innovation coming out of it. So I have to ask you, what are you seeing as a solution that are showing the most promise for these telco industry leaders, because they're digitally transforming, so they got to re-factor their platforms while enabling innovation, which is a key growth for the revenue. >> Yes. So John, from a solution standpoint, what we actually did first and foremost as Google Cloud, was look at ourselves. So just like the transformation we just talked about in the CSP industry, we are seeing Google being transformed over the last two decades or so, right. And it's important to understand that there's a lot Google data over the last two decades that we can actually not externalize all of that innovation, all of that open source, all of that multicloud, was originally built for all the Google applications that all of us use daily, whether it's YouTube, or email or maps, you know. Same infrastructure, same open source, same multicloud. And we decided to sort of use the same paradigm to build the telecom solutions that I'm going to talk about next, right. So that's important to bear in mind, that those assets were there, and we wanted to externalize those assets, right. There are really four big solutions that are resonating really well with our CSP partners, John. You know, number one to your point, is how can they monetize the Edge? All of this happens at the Edge. All of this gets converged at the Edge. We believe with 5G acting as the brilliant catalyst to really drive this Edge deployment. CSPs would be in a very strong position, partnering with Cloud players like ourselves to drive growth, not just for their top line, but also to add value to the actual end enterprises that are seeking to use that Edge. Let me give you a couple of examples. We've been working with industries like retail and manufacturing, to create end solutions in a post-pandemic world. Solutions like contact-less shopping, or visual inspection of an assembly line in a manufacturing plant, without the need for having a human there, because of the digitalization of workforce. Which meant these kinds of solutions, can actually work well at the Edge driven by 5G. But of course they can't be done in isolation. So what we do is we partner with CSPs. We bring our set of solutions, and we actually launch in December 30 partners that are already on our Google Cloud Solutions. And then we partner with the CSPs based on our infrastructure, and their infrastructure to ultimately bring this all to life at the end customer, which often tends to be an enterprise, whether it's a manufacturing, plant, or a retail chain. >> Yeah, you guys got some great examples there. I love that Edge story. I think it's huge. I think it's only going to get bigger. I got to ask you while I got you here, because again, you're in the industry, you're the managing director, so you have to oversee this whole telecom industry. But it's bigger, it's beyond Telecom, where it's now Telecom's just one other Edge network, piece of the pie of the surety computing, as we say. So I got to ask you, one of the big things that Google brings to the table is the developer mojo, and opensource, and scale obviously. Scale's unprecedented, everyone knows that. But ecosystems are super important, and Telco's kind of really aren't good at that, right? So, you know, the Telco ecosystem was, I mean, okay, I'd say, okay, but mostly driven by carriers and moving bits from point A to point B. But now you've got a developer mindset, public cloud, developer ecosystem. How is this changing the landscape of the CSPs and how is it changing this cloud service provider's ability to execute, because that's the key in this new world? What's your opinion? >> Absolutely, John. So, there are two things, there are two dimensions to look at. One is when we came to market a couple of years ago with AnToks, we recognized exactly what you said, John, which is the world is moving to multi-cloud, hybrid cloud. We needed to provide a common platform that the developer community can utilize through microservices and API. And that platform had to by definition, work not just from Google Cloud, but any cloud. It could work on any public cloud, can work on CSP's private cloud. And of course, supports on some Google Cloud, right? The reason was, once you deploy and cause, once as a seamless application development platform, you could put all kinds of developer apps on top. So I just talked about 5G Edge John, a minute ago, those apps can sit on Antoks, but at the same time, IT to your point, John, IT apps could also sit on the same AnToks paradigm, and network apps. So as networks start becoming Cloud Native, whether it's SRAN, whether it's O-Ran, whether it's 5G core, same principle. And that's why we believe when we partner with CSPs, we are saying, "Hey, you give this AnToks to an ecosystem of community, whether that community is network, whether that community is IT, whether the communities Edge apps, all of those can reside seamlessly on this sort of AnToks fabric, John. >> Yeah, and that's going to set the table for multicloud, which is basically cloud words for multi-vendor, multi app. Amol, I've got to ask you while I have you here, first of all, thank you for coming on and sharing your insights. It's really great industry perspective. And obviously Google Cloud's got huge scale, and great leadership. And again, you know, the big, cloud players are moving in and helping out, and enabling a lot of value. I got to ask you, if you don't mind sharing, if someone asked you, "Amol, tell me about the impact that public cloud is having on the Telco industry." What would you say? What's the answer to that? Because a lot of people are like, okay, public cloud, I get it. I know what it looks like, but now everyone's knows it's going hybrid. So everyone will ask you the question, "What is public cloud doing for the telecom sector?" >> Yeah, I think it's doing three things, John, and great question by the way. Number one, we are actually providing unprecedented amount of insights on data that the CSPs traditionally already had, but have never looked at it from the angle we have looked at it. Whether that insights are at the network layer, whether those insights are to personalize customer experiences on the front-end systems. Or whether those insights are to drive care solutions in contact centers, and so on, and so forth. So it's a massive uplift of customer experience that we can help with, right. So that's a very important point, because we do have a significant amount of leadership, John at Google Cloud on analytics and data and insights, right? So, and we offer those roads to these people. Number two, is really what I talked about, which is helping them build an ecosystem, because let's take retail as an example. As a minimum, there are five constituents in that ecosystem, John. There is a CSP, there is Google Cloud, there's an actual retail store. There is a hardware supplier, there's a software developer. All of them as a minimum, have to work together to build that ecosystem, which is where we give those solutions, right? So that's the second part. And then the third part is, as they move towards Cloud Native, we are really helping them change their business model to become a DevOps, a Cloud Native mindset, not just a Cloud Native network or IP. But a Cloud Native mindset that creates unparalleled agility and flexibility in how they work as a business. So those are the three things I would say, as a response to that question. >> And also the retail's a great vertical for Google to go in there, given the Amazon fear out there. People want this for certainly low hanging fruit. I think the DevOps piece is going to be a big, winning opportunity to see how the developers get driven into the landscape. I think that's a huge point. Amol, that's really great insight. A final question for you, while I got you here. If someone says, "Hey, what's happened in the industry since 2019?" Last time we had Mobile World Congress, they were talking speeds and feeds. Now the world has changed. We're coming out of the pandemic. California is opening up. There's going to be a physical event. The world's going hybrid, certainly on the event, and certainly cloud. What's different in the telecom industry, from, you know, many, many months ago, over a year and a half ago, from 2019? >> I would say primarily, it's the adoption of digital everywhere, which previously, you know, there were all these inhibitions and oh, would this work? Would my customer systems become fully digital? Would I be able to offer AR VR experiences? Ah, that's a futuristic thing, you know. And suddenly the pandemic has created this acceleration that says, "Oh, even post-pandemic, half my customers are always going to talk to me, via our digital channel only." Which means the way they experience us, has to be through these new experiences whether it's AR VR, whether it's some other thing or applications. So that has been accelerated John, and the CSPs have therefore really started to go to the application, and to the services. Which is why you are seeing less on, you know, speeds and feeds because 5G is here, 5G's been deployed. Now, how do we monetize 5G? How can we leverage that biggest number? So that's the biggest- >> There's down stack, and then there's a top of the stack for applications. And certainly there's a lot of assets in the telecom landscape, a lot of value, a lot of refactoring going on, and new opportunities that are out there. Great, great conversation. Well, thank you, Amol Phadka, Managing Director, Telecom Industry Solutions. Thanks for comin' on the CUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. Thank you having me. >> Okay, Mobile World Congress here, in person, and hybrid, and remote. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thank you for watching. We are here in person at the Cloud City Expo Community Area. Thanks for watching. Okay, that was us. That was me, online. Now, I'm here in person, as you can see Dave. That's a lot of fun. I love doing those interviews. So we had a chance to grab Google's top people when we could. They're not here, obviously. Amazon Web Services, Microsoft, and Google, the three hyperscalers, Dave, didn't make it out here. They didn't have a booth, but we had a chance to grab them. And that was head of the industry marketing, and I mean the industry group. So he's like the managing door. He runs the business side. >> It's an important sector for Google. You know, Amazon was really first, with that push into telco. Thomas Curran last March, laid out Google strategy for Telco. It's a huge sector. They know it. They understand how the cloud can disrupt it, and play a massive role there. >> Yeah. >> And Google, of course. >> They're not going to object to the public cloud narrative that Danielle Royston- >> No. >> I think they like it open source, Android coming to telco. Who knows what it's going to look like? >> That's what we call digital- >> So the next interview I did was with Shailesh Shukla. He is the Senior Vice-president. He's the Senior Leader at Google Cloud for Networking. And if you know, Google, Dave, Google's networking is really well known in the industry for being really awesome, because they power obviously Google Search, and a variety of other things. They pioneered the concept of SRE, Site Reliability Engineer, which is now a de facto position for DevOps, which is a cloud now persona inside almost every company, and certainly a very important position. And so- >> Probably the biggest global network, right? Undersea cables, and- >> I mean, Microsoft's got a big hyper-scale, because they've had MSN, and bunch of other stuff, infrastructure globally. But Amazon, Google and Microsoft all have massive scale, and Google again, very well engineered. They're total, and they're as we know, I live in Palo Alto, so I can attest that they're very strong. So this next interview is really from a networking perspective, because as infrastructure, as code gets more prolific and more penetrated, it's going to be programmable. And that's really going to be a key new enabler. So let's hear from Shailesh, Head of Networking at Google Cloud, and my interview with him. (cheery music) Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Mobile World Congress, 2021. We are here in person in Barcelona, as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. You're going to have the physical space, in Barcelona for the first time, since 2019, and virtual worlds connecting. I've got a great guest here from Google, Shailesh Shukla, Vice-president and General Manager of the Networking Team, Google Cloud. Shailesh, it's great to see you. Thank you for coming on theCUBE for the special presentation from Mobile World Congress. Obviously, the Edge networking core, Edge human devices, all coming together. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. It's great to see you again. And it's always a pleasure talking to theCUBE. And I want to say hello to everybody, from, you know, in Mobile World Congress. >> Yeah, and people don't know your background. You have a great history in networking. You've been there, many ways of innovation. You've been part of directly, big companies that were now known. Big names are all there. But now we haven't had a Mobile World Congress, since 2019. Think about that. That's, you know, many months, 20 something months gone by, since the world has changed in telco. I got to ask you, what is the disruption happening? Because think about that. Since 2019, a lot's changed in telco. Cloud-scale has happened. You've got the Edge developing. It's IT like now. What's your take? Shailesh, tell us. >> Yeah, John, as you correctly pointed out the last 18 months have been very difficult. And you know, I'll acknowledge that right up front, for a number of people around the world. I empathize with that. Now in the telecom, and kind of the broader Edge world, I would say that the last 18, 24 months have actually been transformative. O-RAN, it turns out was a very interesting sort of, you know, driver of completely new ways of both living, as well as working, right, as we all have experienced. I don't think that I've had a chance to see you live in 24 months. So, what we are seeing is the following. Number one, a number of telecom carriers around the world have started the investment process for 5G, right, and deployment process. And that actually changes the game, as you know, due to latency, due to all of the capabilities around kind of incalculable bandwidth, right. Much lower latency, as well as, much higher kind of enterprise oriented capabilities, right? So network's licensing, as an example, quality of service, you know, by a traffic type, and for a given enterprise. So that's number one. Number two, I would say that the cloud is becoming a lot more kind of mainstream in the world, broader world of telecom. What we are seeing is an incredible amount of partnerships between telecom carriers and cloud providers, right? So instead of thinking of those two as separate universes, those are starting to come together. So I believe that over a period of time, you will see the notion of kind of Cloud Native capability for both the IT side of the house, as well as the network side of the house is becoming, you know, kind of mainstream, right. And then the third thing is that increasingly it's a lot more about enabling new markets, new applications, in the enterprise world, right. So certainly it opens up a new kind of revenue stream for service providers and carriers around the world. But it also does something unique, which is brings together the cloud capabilities right, around elasticity, flexibility, intelligence, and so on, with the enterprise customer base that most of the cloud providers already have. And with the combination of 5G, brings it to the telecom world. And those, you know, I started to call it, as a kind of the triad, right? The triad of an enterprise, the telecom service provider, and the cloud provider, all working together to solve real business problems. >> Yeah, and it's totally a great call out there on the pandemic. I think the pandemic has shown us, coming out of it now, that cloud-scale matters. And you look at all the successes between work, play, and how we've all kind of adjusted, the cloud technologies were a big part of that, those solutions that got us through it. Now you've got the Edge developing with 5G. And I got to ask you this question, because when we have CUBE interviews with all the leaders of engineering teams, whether it's in the industry, or customers in the enterprise, and even in the telcos, the modern application teams have end-to-end visibility into the workload. You're starting to see more and more of that. You starting to see more open source in everything, right. So okay, I buy that. You got an SRE on the team, you got some modern developers, you're shifting left, you've got Devs set up. All good, all cloud. However, you're a networking guy. You know this. Routing packets across multiple networks is difficult. So if you're going to have end-to-end visibility, you got to have end-to-end intelligence on the networking. How is that being solved? Because this is a critical discussion here at Mobile World Congress. Okay, I buy Cloud Native, I buy observability, I buy open source, but I got to have end-to-end visibility for security, and workload management and managing all the data. What's the answer on the network side? >> Yeah, so that's a great question. And the simple way to think about this, is first and foremost, you need kind of global infrastructure, right? So that's a given, and of course, you know, Google with its kind of global infrastructure, and some of the largest networks in the world, we have that present, right. So that's important. Second is, to be able to abstract a way that underlying infrastructure, and make it available to applications, to a set of APIs. Right, so I'll give an analogy here. Just as you know, say 10 years ago, around 10 years ago, Android came into the market from Google, in the following way. What it did, was that it abstracted away the underlying devices with a simple kind of layer on top of operating system, which exposed APIs northbound. So then application developers can write new applications. And that actually unleashed, you know, a ton of kind of creativity right, around the world. And that's precisely what we believe is kind of the next step, as you said, on an end-to-end observability basis, right? If you can do an abstraction away from all of the underlying kind of core infrastructure, provide the right APIs, the right kind of information around observability, around telemetric, instead of making, you know, cloud and the infrastructure, the black box. Make it open, make it kind of visible to the applications. Bring that to the applications, and let the thousand flowers bloom, right? The creativity in each vertical area is so significant, because there are independent software vendors. There are systems integrators. There are individual developers. So one of the things that we are doing right now, is utilizing open source technologies, such as Kubernetes, right? Which is something that Google actually brought into the market. And it has become kind of the de facto standard for all of the container and modernization of applications. So by leveraging those open technologies, creating this common control plane, exposing APIs, right, for everything from application development, to observability, you certainly have the ability to solve business problems through a large number of entities in the systems integrator and the ISC and the developer community. So that's the approach that we are taking, John. >> I love the Android analogy of the abstraction layer, because at that time, the iPhone was closed. It still is. And they got their own little strategy there. Android went the other way. They went open, went open abstraction. Now abstraction layers are good. And now I want to get your thoughts on this, because anyone in operating systems knows abstractions are great for innovation. How does that apply to the real world on telco? Because I get how it could add some programmability in there. I get the control plane piece. Putting it into the operator's hands, how do you guys see, and how do you guys talk about the Edge service offering? What does it mean for the telco? Because if they get this right, this is going to be in telco cloud developer play. It's going to be a telco cloud ecosystem play. It's an opportunity for a new kind of telco system. How do you see that rolling out in real world? >> Great question, John. So the way I look at it, actually even we should take a step back, right? So the confluence of 5G, the kind of cloud capabilities and the Edge is, you know, very clear to me that it's going to unleash a significant amount of innovation. We are in early stages, no question, but it's going to drive innovation. So one almost has to start by saying what exactly is Edge, right? So the way I look at it, is that the Edge can be a continuum all the way from kind of an IOT device in automobiles, right? Or an enterprise Edge, like a factory location, or a retail store, or kind of a bank branch. To the telecom Edge, which is where the service providers have, not only their points of presence, and central offices, but increasingly a very large amount of intelligent RAN sites as well, right. And then the, kind of public cloud Edge, right. Where, for example, Google has, you know, 25 plus kind of regions around the world. 144, you know, PoPS, lots of CDN locations. We have, you know, few thousand nodes deployed deep inside service provider networks for caching of content, and so on. So if you think about these as different places in the network that you can deploy, compute, storage and intelligence act, right. And do that in a smart way, right? For example, if you were to run the learning algorithms in the cloud with its flexibility and elasticity, and run the inferencing at the Edge, very Edge, at the point of sort of a sale, or a point, a very consumer standing. Now you suddenly have the ability to create a variety of Edge applications. So going back to the new question, what have we seen, right? So what we are seeing, is depending on the vertical, there are different types of Edge applications, okay. So let's take a few examples. And I'll give you some, a favorite example of mine, which is in the sports arena, right? So in baseball, when you are in a stadium, and soon there are people sort of starting to be in stadiums, right? And a pitcher is throwing the pitch, right, the trajectory of the ball, the speed of the pitch, where the batter is, you know, what the strike zone is, and all of these things, if they can be in a stadium in real time, analyzed, and presented to the consumer as additional intelligence, and additional insight, suddenly it actually creates kind of a immersive experience. Even though you may be in the stadium, looking at the real thing, you are also seeing an immersive experience. And of course at home, you get a completely different experience, right? So the idea is that in sports, in media and entertainment, the power of Edge compute, and the power of AI ML, right, can be utilized to create completely new immersive experiences. Similarly, in a factory or an automotive environment, you have the ability to use AI ML, and the power of the Edge and 5G coming together, to find where the defects are, in a manufacturing environment, right? So every vertical, what we're finding is, there are very specific applications, which you can call as kind of killer apps, right in the Edge world, that over time will become prevalent and mainstream. And they will drive the innovation. They will drive deployment, and they also will drive ultimately, kind of the economics of all of this. >> You're laying out, essentially the role of the public cloud in the telco market. I'd love to get your thoughts, because a lot of people are saying, "Oh, the cloud, it's all Edge now. It's going back to on-premises." This is not the case. I mean, I've been really vocal on this. The public cloud and cloud operations is now the new normal. So developers are there. So I want you to explain real quick, the role of the public cloud in the telecom market and the Telecom Edge, because now they're working together. You've got abstraction, you mentioned that Android-like environment coming, there's going to be an Android-like effect, that abstraction. You got O-RAN out there, creating these connection points, for interoperability, for radio signals, and the End Transceivers or the Edge of the radios. All of this is happening. How is Google powering this? What is the role of public cloud in this? >> Yeah, so let me first talk about genetically the role of public cloud. Then I'll talk about Google, okay, in particular. So, if at the end of the day, the goal here is to create applications in a very simple and efficient manner, right? So what do you like, if you look for that as the goal, then the public cloud brings, you know, three fundamental things. Number one, is what I would call as elasticity and flexibility, right? So why is this important? Because as we discussed earlier, Edge is not one place, it's a variety of kind of different locations. If there is a mechanism to create this common control plane, and have the ability to kind of have elastic compute, elastic networking, elastic storage, and have this deployed in a flexible manner. Literally if you think, think about it like an effortless Edge is what we are starting to call it. You can move workload and capability, and run it precisely where it makes sense, right? Like I said, earlier, training and learning algorithms in the deep cloud. Inferencing, at the very edge, right? So if you can make that decision, then it becomes very powerful. So that's the first point, you know, elasticity and flexibility that cloud can bring. Second is, intelligence. The whole notion of leveraging the power of data, and the power of AI and ML is extremely crucial for creation of new services. So that's something that the public cloud brings. And the third is this notion of, write once, deploy anywhere, right? This notion of kind of a full stack capability that when open, kind of developer ecosystem can be brought in, right? Like we talked about Kubernetes earlier. So if there's a way in which you can bring in those developer and ISV ecosystem, which is already present in the world of public cloud, that's something that is the third thing that public cloud brings. And Google strategy very simply, is to play on all of these, right? Because we, you know, Google has incredibly rich deployment experience around the world for some of the largest services on the planet, right? With some of the biggest infrastructure in the networking world. Second, is we have a very open and flexible approach, right? So open as you know, we not only leverage kind of the Kubernetes environment, but also there are many other areas, Key Native, and so on where Google has brought a lot of open kind of capabilities to the broader market. And the third, is the enablement of the ecosystem. So last year we actually announced 200 applications, you know, from 30 ISVs in multiple verticals that we're now going to be deployed on Google Cloud, in order to solve specific business pain points, right. And building out that ecosystem, working with telecom service providers, with systems integrators, with equipment players, is the way that we believe Google Cloud can make a difference in this world of developing Edge applications. We are seeing great traction, John, you know, whether it is in the carrier world. Carrier such as Orange, Telecom Italia, TELUS, SK Telecom, Vodafone. These have all publicly announced their work with Google Cloud, leveraging the power of data, analytics, AI ML, and our very flexible infrastructure. And then a variety of kind of partners and OEM players, in the industry. As an example, Nokia, right, Amdocs, and Netcracker, and many others. So we are really excited in the traction that we are getting. And we believe that public cloud is going to be a key part of the evolution of the telecom industry. >> Shailesh, it's great to have you on. Shailesh Shukla, VP and GM of Networking at Google Cloud. And I would just add to that final point there, that open and this Android-like open environment is going to create a thousand flowers to bloom. Those are new applications, new modern applications, new companies, a new ecosystem in the Telco Cloud. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Google Cloud, you guys are about the data, and being open. Thanks for comin' on. >> Thank you, John. Good to talk to you. >> Okay, so keeps coverage of Mobile World Congress. Google Cloud, featured interview here on theCUBE. Really a big part of the public cloud is going to be a big driver. Call it public cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever you want to call it. It's the cloud, cloud and Edge with 5G, making a big difference and changing the landscape, and trying innovation for the telco space. I'm John Furrier, your CUBE host. Thanks for watching. Okay, Dave, that's the Google support. They are obviously singing the same song as Danielle Royston, every vertical. >> Two great interviews, John. Really nice job. We can see the tech. The strategy is becoming more clear. You know, one of the big four. >> Yeah, I just love, these guys are so smart. Every vertical is going to be impacted by elastic infrastructure, AI, machine learning, and this new code deployment, write once, deploy anywhere. That's theCUBE. We love being here it's a cloud show now. Mobile World Congress, back to the studio for more awesome Cloud City content.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hello, and welcome back to the cube live coverage of reinvent 2020 virtual. We're not there this year. It's the cube virtual. We are the cube virtual. I'm your host, John fro with Dave Alante and analyzing our take on the partner day. Um, keynotes and leadership sessions today was AWS APN, which is Amazon partner network global partner network day, where all the content being featured today is all about the partners and what Amazon is doing to create an ecosystem, build the ecosystem, nurture the ecosystem and reinvent what it means to be a partner. Dave, thanks for joining me today on the analysis of Amazon's ecosystem and partner network and a great stuff today. Thanks for coming on. >>Yeah, you're welcome. I mean, watch the keynote this morning. I mean, partners are critical to AWS. Look, the fact is that when, when AWS was launched, it was the developers ate it up. You know, if you're a developer, you dive right in infrastructure is code beautiful. You know, if you're mainstream it, this thing's just got more complex with the cloud. And so there's, there's a big gap right between how I, where I am today and where I want to be. And partners are critical to help helping people get there. And we'll talk about the details of specifically what Amazon did, but I mean, especially when John, when you look at things like smaller outposts, you know, going hybrid, Andy Jassy redefining hybrid, you need partners to really help you plan design, implement, manage at scale. >>Yeah. You know, one of the things I'm always, um, you know, saying nice things about Amazon, but one of the things that they're vulnerable on in my opinion is how they balanced their own SAS offerings and with what they develop in the ecosystem. This has been a constant, um, challenge and, and they've balanced it very well. Um, so other vendors, they are very clear. They make their own software, right. And they have a channel and it's kind of the old playbook. Amazon's got to reinvent the playbook here. And I think that's, what's key today on stage Doug Yom. He's the, uh, the leader you had, um, also Dave McCann who heads up marketplace and Sandy Carter who heads up worldwide public sector partners. So Dave interesting combination of three different teams, you had the classic ISV partners in the ecosystem, the cohesiveness of the world, the EMCs and so on, you had the marketplace with Dave McCann. That's where the future of procurement is. That's where people are buying product and you had public sector, huge tsunami of innovation happening because of the pandemic and Sandy is highlighting their partners. So it's partner day it's partner ecosystem, but multiple elements. They're moving marketplace where you buy programs and competencies with public sector and then ISV, all of those three areas are changing. Um, I want to get your take because you've been following ecosystems years and you've been close to the enterprise and how they buy your, >>And I think, I think John, Oh, a couple of things. One is, you know, Dave McCann was talking a lot about how CIO is one of modernize applications and they have to rationalize, and it will save some of that talk for later on, you know, Tim prophet on. But there's no question that Amazon's out to reinvent, as you said, uh, the whole experience from procurement all the way through, and, you know, normally you had to, to acquire services outside of the marketplace. And now what they're doing is bundling the services and software together. You know, it's straightforward services, implementation services, but those are well understood. The processes are known. You can pretty much size them and price them. So I think that's a huge opportunity for partners and customers to reduce friction. I think the other thing I would say is ecosystems are, are critical. >>Uh, one of the themes that we've been talking about in the cube as we've gone from a product centric world in the old days of it to a platform centric world, which has really been the last decade has been about SAS platforms and cloud platforms. And I think ecosystems are going to be a really power, the new innovation in the coming decade. And what I mean by that is look, if you're just building a service and Amazon is going to do that same service, you know, you got to keep innovating. And one of the ways you can innovate is you can build on ecosystems. There's all this data within industries, across industries, and you can through the partner network and through customer networks within industry start building new innovation around ecosystems and partners or that glue, Amazon's not going to go in. And like Jandy Jesse even said in the, uh, in his fireside chat, you know, customers will ask us for our advice and we're happy to give it to them, but frankly partners are better at that nitty gritty hardcore stuff. They have closer relationships with the customers. And so that's a really important gap that Amazon has been closing for the last, you know, frankly 10 years. And I think that to your point, they've still got a long way to go, but that's a huge opportunity in that. >>A good call out on any Jess, I've got to mention that one of the highlights of today's keynote was on a scheduled, um, Andy Jassy fireside chat. Uh, normally Andy does his keynote and then he kind of talks to customers and does his thing normally at a normal re-invent this time he came out on stage. And I think what I found interesting was he was talking about this builder. You always use the word builder customer, um, solutions. And I think one of the things that's interesting about this partner network is, is that I think there's a huge opportunity for companies to be customer centric and build on top of Amazon. And what I mean by that is, is that Amazon is pretty cool with you doing things on top of their platform that does two things serves the customer's needs better than they do, and they can make more money on and other services look at snowflake as an example, um, that's a company built on AWS. I know they've got other clouds going on, but mainly Amazon Zoom's the same way. They're doing a great solution. They've got Redshift, Amazon, Amazon's got Redshift, Dave, but also they're a customer and a partner. So this is the dynamic. If you can be successful on Amazon serving customers better than Amazon does, that's the growth hack. That's the hack on Amazon's partner network. If you could. >>I think, I think Snowflake's a really good example. You snowflake you use new Relic as an example, I've heard Andy Jess in the past use cloud air as an example, I like snowflake better because they're, they're sort of thriving. And so, but, but I will say this there's a, they're a great example of that ecosystem that we just talked about because yes, not only are they building on AWS, they're connecting to other clouds and that is an ecosystem that they're building out. And Amazon's got a lot of snowflake, I guess, unless you're the Redshift team, but, but generally speaking, Snowflake's driving a lot of business for Amazon and Andy Jesse addressed that in that, uh, in that fireside chat, he's asked that question a lot. And he said, look, we, we, we have our primary services. And at the same time we want to enable our partners to be successful. And snowflake is a really good example of that. >>Yeah. I want to call out also, uh, yesterday. Um, I had our Monday, I should say Tuesday, December 1st, uh, Jesse's keynote. I did an interview with Jerry chin with gray lock. He's investing in startups and one of the things he observed and he pointed out Dave, is that with Amazon, if you're, if you're a full all-in in the cloud, you're going to take advantage of things that are just not available on say on premises that is data patterns, other integrations. And I think one of the things that Doug pointed out was with interoperability and integration with say things like the SAS factor that they put out there there's advantages for being in the cloud specifically with Amazon, that you can get on integrations. And I think Dave McCann teases that out with the marketplace when they talk about integrations. But the idea of being in the cloud with all these other partners makes integration and interoperability different and unique and better potentially a differentiator. This is going to become a huge deal. >>I didn't pick up on that because yesterday I thought I wasn't in the keynote. I think it was in the analyst one-on-one with, with Jesse, he talked about, you know, this notion that people, I think he was addressing multi-cloud he didn't use that term, but this notion of an abstraction layer and how it does simplify things in, in his basic, he basically said, look, our philosophy is we want to have, you know, the, the ability to go deep with the primitives and have that fine grain access, because that will give us control. A lot of times when you put in this abstraction layer, which people are trying to do across clouds, you know, it limits your ability to really move fast. And then of course it's big theme is, is this year, at the same time, if you look at a company who was called out today, like, like Octa, you know, when you do an identity management and single sign-on, you're, you're touching a lot of pieces, there's a lot of integration to your point. >>So you need partners to come in and be that glue that does a lot of that heavy lifting that needs to needs to be done. Amazon. What Jessie was essentially saying, I think to the partner network is, look, we're not going to put in that abstraction layer. You're going to you, you got to do that. We're going to do stuff maybe between our own own services like they did with the, you know, the glue between databases, but generally speaking, that's a giant white space for partner organizations. He mentioned Okta. He been talked about in for apt Aptio. This was Dave McCann, actually Cohesity came up a confluent doing fully managed Kafka. So that to me was a signal to the partners. Look, here's where you guys should be playing. This is what customers need. And this is where we're not going to, you know, eat your lunch. >>Yeah. And the other thing McCann pointed out was 200 new Dave McCann pointed out who leads these leader of the, of the marketplace. He pointed out 200 new ISP. ISV is out there, huge news, and they're going to turn already. He went, he talked with his manage entitlements, which got my attention. And this is kind of an, um, kind of one of those advantage points that it's kind of not sexy and mainstream to talk about, but it's really one of those details. That's the heavy lifting. That's a pain in the butt to deal with licensing and tracking all this compliance stuff that goes on under the covers and distribution of software. I think that's where the cloud could be really advantaged. And also the app service catalog registry that he talked about and the professional services. So these are areas that Amazon is going to kind of create automation around. >>And as Jassy always talks about that undifferentiated heavy lifting, they're going to take care of some of these plumbing issues. And I think you're right about this differentiation because if I'm a partner and I could build on top of Amazon and have my own cloud, I mean, let's face it. Snowflake is a born in the cloud, in the cloud only solution on Amazon. So they're essentially Amazon's cloud. So I think the thing that's not being talked about this year, that is probably my come up in future reinvents is that whoever can build their own cloud on top of Amazon's cloud will be a winner. And I, I talked about this years ago, data around this tier two, I call it tier two clouds. This new layer of cloud service provider is going to be kind of the, on the power law, the, the second wave of cloud. >>In other words, you're on top of Amazon differentiating with a modern application at scale inside the cloud with all the other people in there, a whole new ecosystem is going to emerge. And to me, I think this is something that is not yet baked out, but if I was a partner, I would be out there planning like hell right now to say, I'm going to build a cloud business on Amazon. I'm going to take advantage of the relationships and the heavy lifting and compete and win that way. I think that's a re redefining moment. And I think whoever does that will win >>And a big theme around reinventing everything, reinvent the industry. And one of the areas that's being reinvented as is the, you know, the VAR channel really well, consultancies, you know, smaller size for years, these companies made a ton of dough selling boxes, right? All the, all the Dell and the IBM and the EMC resellers, you know, they get big boats and big houses, but that business changed dramatically. They had to shift toward value, value, value add. So what did they do? They became VMware specialists. They came became SAP specialists. There's a couple of examples, maybe, you know, adding into security. The cloud was freaking them out, but the cloud is really an opportunity for them. And I'll give you an example. We've talked a lot about snowflake. The other is AWS glue elastic views. That's what the AWS announced to connect all their databases together. Think about a consultancy that is able to come in and totally rearchitect your big data life cycle and pipeline with the people, the processes, the skillsets, you know, Amazon's not going to do that work, but the upside value for the organizations is tremendous. So you're seeing consultancies becoming managed service providers and adding all kinds of value throughout the stack. That's really reinvention of the partnership. >>Yeah. I think it's a complete, um, channel strategy. That's different. It doesn't, it looks like other channels, but it's not, it's, it's, it's driven by value. And I think this idea of competing on value versus just being kind of a commodity play is shifting. I think the ISV and the VARs, those traditional markets, David, as you pointed out, are going to definitely go value oriented. And you can just own a specialty area because as data comes in and when, and this is interesting. And one of the key things that Andy Jassy said in his fireside chat want to ask directly, how do partners benefit when asked about his keynote, how that would translate to partners. He really kind of went in and he was kind of rambling, but he, he, he hit the chips. He said, well, we've got our own chips, which means compute. Then he went into purpose-built data store and data Lake data, elastic views SageMaker Q and QuickSight. He kind of went down the road of, we have the horsepower, we have the data Lake data, data, data. So he was kind of hinting at innovate on the data and you'll do okay. >>Well, and this is again, we kind of, I'm like a snowflake fan boy, you know, in the way you, you like AWS. But look, if you look at AWS glue elastic views, that to me is like snowflakes data cloud is different, a lot of pushing and moving a date, a lot of copying data. But, but this is a great example of where like, remember last year at reinvent, they said, Hey, we're separating compute from storage. Well, you know, of course, snowflake popularized that. So this is great example of two companies thriving that are both competitors and partners. >>Well, I've got to ask you, you know, you, you and I always say we kind of his stories, we've been around the block on the enterprise for years. Um, where do you Mark the, um, evolution of their partner? Because again, Amazon has been so explosive in their growth. The numbers have been off the charts and they've done it well with and pass. And now you have the pandemic which kind of puts on full display, digital transformation. And then Jassy telegraphing that the digital global it spend is their next kind of conquering ground, um, to take, and they got the edge exploding with 5g. So you have this kind of range and they doing all kinds of stuff with IOT, and they're doing stuff in you on earth and in space. So you have this huge growth and they still don't have their own fully oriented business model. They rely on people to build on top of Amazon. So how do you see that evolving in your opinion? Because they're trying to add their own Amazon only, we've got Redshift that competes with others. How do you see that playing out? >>So I think it's going to be specialized and, and something that, uh, that I've talked about is Amazon, you know, AWS in the old day, old days being last decade, they really weren't that solution focused. It was really, you know, serving the builders with tooling, with you, look at something like what they're doing in the call center and what they're doing at the edge and IOT there. I think they're, so I think their move up the stack is going to be very solution oriented, but not necessarily, you know, horizontal going after CRM or going after, you know, uh, supply chain management or ERP. I don't think that's going to be their play. I think their play is going to be to really focus on hard problems that they can automate through their tooling and bring special advantage. And that's what they'll SAS. And at the same time, they'll obviously allow SAS players. >>It's just reminds me of the early days when you and I first met, uh, VMware. Everybody had to work with VMware because they had a such big ecosystem. Well, the SAS players will run on top. Like Workday does like Salesforce does Infour et cetera. And then I think you and I, and Jerry Chen talked about this years ago, I think they're going to give tools to builders, to disrupt the service now is in the sales forces who are out buying companies like crazy to try to get a, you know, half, half a billion dollar, half a trillion dollar market caps. And that is a really interesting dynamic. And I think right now, they're, they're not even having to walk a fine line. I think the lines are reasonably clear. We're going up to database, we're going to do specialized solutions. We're going to enable SAS. We're going to compete where we compete, come on, partner ecosystem. And >>Yeah, I, I, I think that, you know, the Slack being bought by Salesforce is just going to be one of those. I think it's a web van moment, you know, um, you know, where it's like, okay, Slack is going to go die on Salesforce. Okay. I get that. Um, but it's, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just old school thinking. And I think if you're an entrepreneur and if you're a developer or a partner, you could really reinvent the business model because if you're, dis-aggregating all these other services like you can compete with Salesforce, Slack has now taken out of the game with Salesforce, but what Amazon is doing with say connect, which they're promoting heavily at this conference. I mean, you hear it, you heard it on Andy Jessie's keynote, Sandy Carter. They've had huge success with AWS connect. It's a call center mindset, but it's not calling just on phones. >>It's contact that is descent, intermediating, the Salesforce model. And I think when you start getting into specialists and specialism in channels, you have customer opportunity to be valuable. And I think call center, these kinds of stories that you can stand up pretty quickly and then integrate into a business model is going to be game changing. And I think that's going to going to a lot of threat on these big incumbents, like Salesforce, like Slack, because let's face it. Bots is just the chat bot is just a call center front end. You can innovate on the audio, the transcriptions there's so much Amazon goodness there, that connect. Isn't just a call center that could level the playing field and every vertical >>Well, and SAS is getting disrupted, you know, to your, to your point. I mean, you think about what happened with, with Oracle and SAP. You had, you know, these new emerging players come up like, like Salesforce, like Workday, like service now, but their pricing model, it was all the same. We lock you in for a one-year two-year three-year term. A lot of times you have to pay up front. Now you look at guys like Datadog. Uh, you, you look at a snowflake, you look at elastic, they're disrupting the Splunks of the world. And that model, I think that SAS model is right for disruption with a consumption pricing, a true cloud pricing model. You combine that with new innovation that developers are going to attack. I mean, you know, people right now, they complain about service now pricing, they complain about Splunk pricing. They, you know, they talk about, Oh, elastic. We can get that for half the price Datadog. And so I'm not predicting that those companies service now Workday, the great companies, but they are going to have to respond much in the same way that Oracle and SAP had to respond to the disruption that they saw. >>Yeah. It's interesting. During the keynote, they'll talk about going out to the mainframes today, too. So you have Amazon going into Oracle and Microsoft, and now the mainframes. So you have Oracle database and SQL server and windows server all going to being old school technologies. And now mainframe very interesting. And I think the, this whole idea of this SAS factory, um, got my attention to Cohesity, which we've been covering Dave on the storage front, uh, Mo with the founder was on stage. I'm a data management as a service they're part of this new SAS factory thing that Amazon has. And what they talk about here is they're trying to turn ISV and VARs into full-on SAS providers. And I think if they get that right with the SAS factory, um, then that's going to be potentially game changing. And I'm gonna look at to see if what the successes are there, because if Amazon can create more SAS applications, then their Tam and the global it market is there is going to, it can be mopped up pretty quickly, but they got to enable it. They got to enable that quickly. Yeah. >>Enabling to me means not just, and I think, you know, when Jesse answered your question, I saw it in the article that you wrote about, you know, you asked them about multi-cloud and it, to me, it's not about running on AWS and being compatible with Azure and being compatible with Google. No, it's about that frankly abstraction layer that he talked about, and that's what Cohesity is trying to do. You see others trying to do it as well? Snowflake for sure. It's about abstracting that complexity away and adding value on top of the cloud. In other words, you're using the cloud for scale being really expert at taking advantage of the native cloud services, which requires is that Jessie was saying different API APIs, different control, plane, different data plane, but taking that complexity away and then adding new value on top that's white space for a lot of players there. And, and, and I'll tell you, it's not trivial. It takes a lot of R and D and it takes really smart people. And that's, what's going to be really interesting to see, shake out is, you know, can the Dell and HPE, can they go fast enough to compete with the, the Cohesity's you've got guys like CLU Mayo coming in that are, that are brand new. Obviously we talked about snowflake a lot and many others. >>I think there's going to be a huge change in expectations, experience, huge opportunity for people to come in with unique solutions. We're going to have specialty programming on the cube all day today. So if you're watching us here on the Amazon channel, you know that we're going to have an all of a sudden demand. There's a little link on our page. On the, on the, um, the Amazon reinvent virtual event platform, click here, the bottom, it's going to be a landing page, check out all the interviews as we roll them out all day. We got a great lineup, Dave, we got Nutanix pure storage, big ID, BMC, Amazon leaders, all coming in to talk today. Uh, chaos search ed Walsh, Rachel Rose, uh, Medicar Kumar, um, Mike Gill, flux, tons of great, great, uh, partners coming in and they're going to share their story and what's working for them and their new strategies. And all throughout the day, you're going to hear specific examples of how people are changing and reinventing their business development, their partnership strategies on the product, and go to market with Amazon. So really interesting learnings. We're going to have great conversations all throughout the day. So check it out. And again, everything's going to be on demand. And when in doubt, go to the cube.net, we have everything there and Silicon angle.com, uh, for all the great coverage. So >>I don't think John is, we're going to have a conversation with him. David McCann touched on this. You talked about the need for modernization and rationalization, Tim Crawford on, on later. And th this is, this is sort of the, the, uh, the call-out that Andy Jassy made in his keynote. He gave the story of that one. CIO is a good friend of his who said, Hey, I love what you're doing, but it's not going to happen on my watch. And, and so, you know, Jessie's sort of poking at that, that, uh, complacency saying, guys, you have to reinvent, you have to go fast, you have to keep moving. And so we're gonna talk a little bit about what, what does that mean to modernize applications, why the CIO is want to rationalize what is the role of AWS and its ecosystem and providing that, that, that level of innovation, and really try to understand what the next five to seven years are gonna look like in that regard. >>Funny, you mentioned, uh, Andy Jesuit that story. When I had my one-on-one conversation with them, uh, he was kind of talking about that anonymous CIO and I, if people don't know Andy, he's a big movie buff, too, right? He loves it goes to Sundance every year. Um, so I said to him, I said, this error of digital transformation, uh, is kind of like that scene in the godfather, Dave, where, um, Michael Corleone goes to Tom Hagen, Tom, you're not a wartime conciliary. And what he meant by that was is that, you know, they were going to war with the other five families. I think now I think this is what chassis pointed out is that, that this is such an interesting, important time in history. And he pointed this out. If you don't have the leadership chops to lean into this, you're going to get swept away. >>And that story about the CIO being complacent. Yeah. He didn't want to shift. And the new guy came in or gal and they, and they, and they lost three years, three years of innovation. And the time loss, you can't get that back. And during this time, I think you have to have the stomach for the digital transformation. You have to have the fortitude to go forward and face the truth. And the truth is you got to learn new stuff. So the old way of doing things, and he pointed that out very aggressively. And I think for the partners, that same thing is true. You got to look in the mirror and say, where are we? What's the opportunity. And you gotta gotta go there. If not, you can wait, be swept away, be driftwood as Pat Gelsinger would say, or lean in and pick up a, pick up a shovel and start digging the new solution. >>You know what the other interesting thing, I mean, every year when you listen to Jassy and his keynotes and you sort of experienced re-invent culture comes through and John you're live in Silicon Valley, you talked to leaders of Silicon Valley, you know, well, what's the secret of success though? Nine times out of 10, they'll talk about culture, maybe 10 times out of 10. And, and, and so that's, that comes through in Jesse's keynotes. But one of the things that was interesting this year, and it's been thematic, you know, Andy, you know, repetition is important, uh, to, to him because he wants to educate people and make sure it sticks. One of the things that's really been he's been focused on is you actually can change your culture. And there's a lot of inertia. People say, well, not on my watch. Well, it doesn't work that way around here. >>And then he'll share stories about how AWS encourages people to write papers. Anybody in the organization say we should do it differently. And, and you know, they have to follow their protocol and work backwards and all of those stuff. But I believe him when he says that they're open to what you have a great example today. He said, look, if somebody says, well, it's 10 feet and somebody else says, well, it's, it's five feet. He said, okay, let's compromise and say it's seven and a half feet. Well, we know it's not seven and a half feet. We don't want to compromise. We either want to be a 10, Oh, we want to be at five, which is the right answer. And they push that. And that that's, he gives examples like that for the AWS culture, the working backwards, the frequently asked questions, documents, and he's always pushing. And that to me is very, very important and fundamental to understanding AWS. >>It's no doubt that Andy Jassy is the best CEO in the business. These days. If you look at him compared to everyone else, he's hands down, more humble as keynote who does three hour keynotes, the way he does with no notes with no, he memorize it all. So he's competitive and he's open. And he's a good leader. I think he's a great CEO. And I think it will be written and then looked back at his story this time in history. The next, I think post COVID Dave is going to be an error. We're going to look back and say the digital transformation was accelerated. Yes, all that good stuff, people process technology. But I think we're gonna look at this time, this year and saying, this was the year that there was before COVID and after COVID and the people who change and modernize will build the winners and not, and the losers will, will be sitting still. So I think it's important. I think that was a great message by him. So great stuff. All right. We gotta leave it there. Dave, the analysis we're going to be back within the power panel. Two sessions from now, stay with us. We've got another great guest coming on next. And then we have a pair of lb talk about the marketplace pricing and how enterprises have CIO is going to be consuming the cloud in their ecosystem. This is the cube. Thanks for watching..

>> From theCube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCube and ETR, this is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> As we reported in our last episode tech spending overall continues to be significantly muted relative to 2019. Now, our forecast continues to project a 4 to 5% decline in 2020 spending, and a tepid 2% increase in 2021. This is based on the latest data from ETR surveys of CIOs and other it buyers. Nonetheless, there continues to be some sectors and vendor bright spots in what is generally an overall challenging market. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. My name is Dave Vellante, and in this breaking analysis, we welcome back Erik Bradley from ETR to provide added color from my solo flight from last time. Erik always a pleasure to see you, thanks so much for coming back in theCube. >> I always enjoy it. Happy Friday Dave, We're almost through. >> Happy Friday. They just blend together. Guys, if you would bring up the first slide, I just want to summarize the situation. This is from ETR's latest findings, I just extracted some. And I want to go down very quickly, Erik, and then get your take. As I said, technology buyers expect the downturn for 2020, but this quarter, coming into fourth quarter, minus 3.2% was ETR's forecast, that's year to year spending decline and a 2% uptick in 2021. Now, Erik this is slightly, what I call it slightly less bad, relative to last quarter. So sequentially it's less bad. >> Yeah, there's a couple of things to break down there. So first to begin with, beginning of the year, when we launched not only our spending attention surveys, we did a simultaneous COVID impact survey, and that's where we caught originally a 5% decline was expected. So although negative 3.2 was probably the worst quarter over quarter lapse we've seen, as a matter of fact it is the lowest drop we've had theory, going into 2021, the IT people that we've actually surveyed are actually expecting a 2% increase. So there is a reason for optimism, but if we're looking at the current data set, there is no doubt the picture remains a little bit bleak. We can go into different sectors and vendors where they are impacted, but I think maybe if you're willing, I think it might be worth just sort of breaking down the demographics of the survey a little bit and how we got to that 3.2% survey over survey decline. >> Yeah, and we have a chart on that. But before we get that, I just wanted to lay out some of the other key points of your analysis. The other one, which is we talked about this in the last episode, we call it a slow thawing. Hiring an IT project freezes are thawing, with fewer companies expecting layoffs. So that gives us some bright spots, but there are definitely a widening bifurcation between vendors gaining share and those who are donating share. And then, you know, again, relative to last quarter survey we're seeing government and education and fortune 100, you guys are showing the deepest cuts from the last survey. Where's IT Telco, retail and retail consumer are showing a little bit more stability. And then of course you talked about the work from home which we've covered doubling from pre pandemic. Pretty interesting findings from your COVID survey. >> Yeah, it's a fantastic, and this is the fourth iteration of this survey that we've done now. So we've been able to track it very quickly, launched it in the field when we realized the true impact of what was happening in early March. This is our fourth version, and we've been able to track it overall. Yes, without a doubt government, education are being the biggest impact, the biggest declines without a doubt. Now, clearly the caveat to that is if there's any sort of government policy maybe those could actually help a little bit, but for right now, those are getting hit the most. Retail consumer is fairing much, much better, and the IT companies, as generally, we're seeing in the market as well, they can, you know, are still spending money and still moving. But the reason for optimism actually comes from multiple metrics. And I will say, we have caught a bottom on all of the negative metrics at this point. Now, who knows what will happen the next time we do it, right? The world is always fluid. But based on this, this is our fourth iteration of this survey, whether it be IT projects being frozen, whether it be layoffs, whether it be just overall expected budget increase, everything looks like it is already bottomed and there is some optimism going into 2021. Of course, the January survey that we launched will be able to corroborate that hopefully, and we'll have much more granularity into those findings at that time. >> Great. Okay, now let's get into the demographics that you referenced for. This next slide shows those. The record number of respondents Erik, congratulations on that. And so take us through the makeup of the survey respondents guys, if you bring up this next slide. >> Yeah. So for the October 20, what we're really doing here is we're asking the it decision makers to update the survey responses they gave us in July. We're basically saying, okay, you thought you were going to spend this in the back half, what did you actually do? And in this particular survey we had 1,438 qualified IT decision makers get involved. That's 60% of the fortune 100 is represented, almost a quarter of the global 1000, and we had about 35% of the fortune 500. The industry breakdown is all across the board, whether it's financials/insurance, IT/Telco, we have industrials/manufacturing, we have energy/utilities, we have government. So it's really a great cross section. Now, geographically, that tends to be about 80% North America. We are heavily concentrated in that area, but we also have a 12% EMEA, 5% APAC and remainder is Latin AmErika. If there were any visibility concerns at all would probably be in China. It's just not that easy to get qualified IT decision makers from China to respond to us. But that's an area we are working on going forward, but overall a huge survey response, certainly meaningful end, and we're very happy with the data that we collected this time. >> Okay, thank you for that. Now, I want to go into the next graphic here, and I want to look at how net score has changed over time. And I want to remind people that, so this slide basically goes back to 2016, and shows some ebbs and flows and then some real strength coming in, 'cause you see 17 and 18, and you may forget going into Q4'19 and into 2020, the ETR data was telling us, hey, things are going to slow down a little bit. It's hard to remember that. And so, and the thinking back then was okay, last couple of years, people have spent a lot on digital transformation, and would a lot of experimentation, they were hanging on to their legacy stuff, and with all that technical debt and they were experimenting with a lot of the new technologies. And what we saw coming into Q4 2019 was people beginning to unplug some of that and making bets basically, unplugging some of the legacy stuff. Oh, and by the way, maybe saying hey, the new stuff that we tried didn't work, we're going to do less experimentation. So we saw a somewhat depressed next score, and you can see that in here coming into 2020, and then of course COVID hit and you can see the bottom fell out. But wow what a drop, I mean, that says it all, a lot different than what we're seeing in the stock market. >> Yeah, first of all, just a great recap on what we caught last year. Really well done. So at that time there was concurrent spending. There was a lot of proof of concepts being done. People weren't exactly sure how to transition off, how fast they were going to get into the cloud, how fast they could make that digital transformation. And they were kicking the tires on everything, and there was a ton of spend. It was the golden era of IT spending at the time. But we did catch that some of that was coming down. So what we will see now is obviously that spending was going to cool off either way, but now with the global pandemic impact hitting what we've caught, of course, is the biggest survey over survey decline. 3.2% was matched at one other point in our survey's history, but that was at very elevated spendings, so that drop was not as meaningful. When we're seeing from a more baseline that drop right now is extremely seasonal, and extremely meaningful, my apologies. Now, I do want to make a quick caveat that usually the October survey catches some seasonality, because a lot of people have expected spend in the back half that doesn't always materialize. But make no mistake, this is way beyond our normal seasonality. This trough is a real metric. >> Yeah, and when I talk to buyers and I talk to even salespeople, for if you want the truth, you'll talk to salespeople, if you can get the truth out of them, which you usually can. Sales and engineering, that's really if we want to know what's happening in companies, but they will tell you that their visibility, same with the buyers, they're saying, look, I think I'm going to spend and I think I'm going to get approval on it, but the normal buying signals, you kind of have to take with a grain of salt because it's, the buyers don't know the sellers don't really know. I mean, they think they've got reasonable visibility but things change so fast as we know. So you have to be really, really careful. All right, let's drill in to some of the sectors, and that's really the next two slides, guys, if you bring up the first of the next two. So this shows the change from July to October. So the last survey to this survey, 2020, and the green bars of July, yellow bars are October. And you can see right away, jumps out at you, container orchestration and ML and AI, and we've got some other data on this jump right off the charts. They're still elevated levels, so that's a real positive. You can see AI actually, maybe waning a bit, and I think that's probably, Erik, is a lot of it is just, you don't even see it, it's just embedded. But take us through this first chart and then we'll dig into some of these sectors. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, certainly. So from a sector breakdown point of view, that lesson, none of them were spared, let's be honest, right? There's a slow down in spending. But containers and containerization were by far the most stable. So clearly this is a priority. People are recognizing that they need to go that route. Nobody wants to be tied to any particular cloud provider. So container and containers are moving the best, they are looking about as stable as they can be. When we drill down a little bit further in there, we're seeing Kubernetes of course, Microsoft and AWS really supporting in that sector. Now, when you talk about the ones that had the biggest survey over survey declines, we are looking at ML/AI, but like you said, still elevated spend. So even though there was a big survey over survey decline, the overall spending intentions are healthy. Nobody is getting away from it. Also to corroborate that in the COVID impact study, we asked people, given the current situation where their priorities are, and unfortunately in that area ML/AI and the RPA we're actually not positioned as well. So it actually corroborates the COVID impact survey, corroborates what we're seeing here in our larger intentions. Now, when you look at ML/AI, Microsoft is still very well suited in that area. Virtualization was another big area that dropped, which was interesting because I think the immediate COVID impact and the work from home, we saw a little spike there. I think we definitely saw companies like Citrix, right? F5 and Nutanix and AWS workspaces. They all had a really good impact, positive, when we first hit, but virtualization is dropping quite a bit there. And again, no surprise, Microsoft is well positioned as well. And then lastly, enterprise content management also had a big, big drop-off, and there you're looking at Adobe Box, Open Text, those are the type of companies that seem to be having the biggest survey over survey decline and ECM. >> Yeah. And I just want to make a comment on this first of the two slides. Is you see security, it's okay, there's a little bit of decline, but there's the story of the haves and the have nots. If you're an end point security, you're in cloud security, you're in identity access management, there's some real tailwinds for you right now. You're seeing that with Octa, CrowdStrike and Zscaler, SailPoint, you know, had a really good quarter. So that's the story of kind of the, a mixed bag. If you go to the next slide, guys, what jumps out here on the second sector breakdown, and Erik you alluded to this as RPA, very elevated, although down, somewhat still, again, very elevated and cloud computing. I mean, that's all everybody wants to talk about. This is a large market that continues to grow very, very fast. >> Yeah. It's a A2 cloud, right? I mean, even the cloud, we're kind of shocked and we saw that too. But, you know, again, it's still a healthy survey at 4Cloud. Spending is still there, but what we are seeing is a pretty big survey over-serving decline that is probably, if you had to translate that, it's going to show slower growth. Still double digit growth, but slower than we expected. And interestingly in the cloud, again, Microsoft is very steady, GCP steady. We saw AWS soften a little bit, and that's something that I think we need to keep an eye on there, we are seeing some softening trends. IBM and Oracle, unfortunately, no matter how hard they push, it doesn't really seem to be making a dent, at least with our it decision makers that respond to the survey. But one thing that was interesting was VMware on AWS actually looked much, much better than VMware alone. So on the cloud side, those are pretty interesting takeaways. >> Yeah, we talked about that a couple of episodes back as the, well, couple of things to pick up on your comments. You mentioned IBM and Oracle, they're just so large, they're growing businesses are not growing fast enough and they're not large enough to offset the decline and their declining businesses. Yet they're huge, they have, they throw off a lot of cash and so maybe their stock's not going through the roof, but they're pretty stable companies from that regard. I wonder, maybe AWS is starting to hit some of those, the law of large numbers. I mean, it's still growing very, very rapidly for a 45 plus billion dollar organization, still growing well into the double digits, so it just gets harder. And then, but the other thing I wanted to pick up on is you mentioned VMware cloud on AWS, we're seeing those hybrid solutions really start to pick up the multi-cloud solutions, which I was a real skeptic a couple of years ago 'cause it wasn't really real, now becoming real. And I think when you talk to, you know this well from your Ven discussions, people are looking at options for cloud. They want multiple clouds, the right horse for the right course, they want to reduce their risk, they want to ensure exit strategies and some clouds are just better at some things than others. >> Yeah, completely agree. And as you know, I do interview a lot of these IT decision makers that we survey to get a little more granularity and to dig into the details, and you and I just, great example. We did a session on Data Warehousing as a Service, we're at Snowflake. And the main reason that people love them is 'cause they have cloud portability. They can move across multiple clouds. Nobody wants to be tied to one cloud provider, they need to be agnostic. And if you look at, you know, something like Microsoft, right? Their Software Suite is fantastic. So most people are going to be aligned for them. They provide great active directory, the enterprise applications are absolutely incredible. But if you're looking to do straight ML/AI or straight data warehousing, maybe AWS Redshift, maybe Google Big Query might be a better fit for you. There's no reason to be tied into one. So what we're seeing more and more is those vendors that offer cloud portability or hybrid availability to do some on-prem for security, some cloud, they're really taking a step up in our recent surveys. Another comment you made Dave, if I can just backtrack to it is, you kind of mentioned how some of the vendors are taking more and more share. We are continuing to see this theme of a widening bifurcation, where although the overall spend that pie is shrinking, the leading vendors are taking much bigger slices from that pie. And that is continuing across the entire year. >> Yeah, definitely a time of disruption. So thank you for bringing that up. Okay, the next graphic I want to show you is actually a motion graphic, and what we're showing here is one of our favorite views. On the vertical axis you've got net score, remember, net score, essentially ETR, every quarter like clockwork asks customers are you spending more you're spending less, it's more granular than that, but essentially they subtract the red from the green and that leaves you with net score. So the higher the net score the better on the vertical axis, on the on the horizontal is axis is market share, its presence, its pervasiveness in the dataset. So you want to be up into the right, of course, like all these charts and XY's. And what we're showing here is, we go back to October, 2018. Remember this is the October survey and you can see the movement and what's happening. And a couple of points here really is one is container orchestration and container platforms, cloud, RPA, ML, they all stand out. And now we, you can see the the context of their "market share" as well, and you see that bunching, you see some of the Legacy stuff, the more mature markets like storage and PC tablets and laptops. They don't have a huge next or outsourcing, not a big net score, but they're there and they're kind of bunched up, down in the middle. But you can also see how they've slowly got depressed over time, even the elevated ones. Nobody in the recent survey is over a 60% net net score. I think you guys said that the overall net score was the lowest in history. So this is just a good way to visualize the various sectors and how spending, momentum and share is shifting. >> Yeah, that's a very good point, and you are right. The overall survey net score is actually 25.3% and it is the lowest ever we've captured. So that actually is translating into what we expect to be single digit declines in overall growth in IT budgets, which again is in line with what we've been saying. We caught early on about negative 5 1/2, that is improved now it's in this quarter to about negative 3 1/2, but if you look at the mid point here, we're very clearly in mid single digit declines, and the entire area is being impacted. Now, there are certainly some areas that are more important than others, there's no doubt about it. But yeah, outsourcing is one you mentioned, absolutely getting decimated. Nobody really has the money right now to be doing IT outsourcing, that's just not a priority. The priority is remote connectivity, remote security, how do I get identity access and governance to make sure that my employees are doing what they're supposed to be doing, even though they're not on my network anymore. All of those things are continuing. And as you saw on the COVID-19 Impact Survey, they're not going away. You had mentioned on a solo session you did, I think a week ago, where you have cited our data saying that permanent workforce is going to double from where it was in pre-pandemic levels. So that means a lot of the people that slapped a bandaid on their networking to get their employees to work from home, that bandaid solution is not going to work. They need to find one that's permanent now. So the areas of spend, although it is declining, there are very clear delineations of where that spend is going. >> Yeah, I want to just pick up on something you said about the work from home doubling, 'cause I've shared that data with some folks and had some discussions. We're talking about people that work from home, not come in a couple of times a week, this is the work from home component. And so I think the hybrid is going to increase as well, but the hardcore work from home, I think it was mid-teens, 16% or something doubling in the post pandemic was the expectation. And again, I just wanted to sort of clarify that I think your data there is quite good. How about some of the vendors? I think, now that's Snowflakes public, you guys may be doing some forecasts there. Let's start there. >> Sure, yeah. So it's fun to talk about the high level, right? And talk about the sector breakdown and where we're seeing things, but at the end of the day, people just love to talk about the individual vendors. So there's a few things that were interesting, yeah. We were able to finally come out with a real viewpoint on Snowflake now that they're out in public, and we kind of launched with a positive to neutral viewpoint. I don't think there's going to be anything here that shocks you. We're absolutely outstanding expansion rates. All the commentary we get from our CIOs are just incredible, the market share gains are about as high as you're going to see in the survey, they are extremely well positioned to continue executing, and this is not in the data set, but we also know that that management team is fantastic. I would think that they had set themselves up coming out as a public company not to completely disappoint. And everything in our data set shows absolutely no reason why they would disappoint. >> Well, and so you may be wondering folks, like, well, wait a minute, with all that great news, I mean, how could they be positive to neutral. Maybe it maybe neutral, the reason is because they have a 66, roughly $66 billion valuation. And what ETR is doing is they're taking that into consideration as well relative to, so they're looking at the street forecast, the consensus forecast and saying, okay, how does the data line up to that? And so a lot of people are asking the question, can Snowflake live up to its valuation. I don't think there's any lack of total available market here. I mean, it's very, very large, the data market, it's enormous. And as, just a plug for an event that we're doing on November 17th, it starts, we're doing a global event, and we're going to be looking at this issue very closely, interviewing customers and partners and executives and, you know, you can judge for yourself if you think the vision, they're putting out this vision of a data cloud. You see this, if this vision, you think is going to have a big enough term that they can grow into, and as Erik said, great management team, will they be able to execute? Decide for yourself, but very exciting IPO obviously that we've tracked quite closely. Elastic is another one that you guys have followed quite closely. I know you've got some data there that you want to share as well. >> Yeah, I certainly do. The APM spaces is really interesting. One last quick point on Snowflake. We don't have regression forecasts on them, because they haven't been out public long enough for us to be able to do that sort of back-testing. So without that data science behind us, we will never really go with a full positive. So to your point that saying positive to neutral is not negative or neutral stance whatsoever, it's just without that regression support behind our data, that's what we just tend to do. Because at the end of the day, we're a data science company, so.. >> Yeah. You need some some history there to really make those calls. But yeah, let's talk about Elastic. >> Yeah, sure, you got it. So recently I hosted a panel on the APM and monitoring space. It was incredibly enlightening. It's a very crowded space that our CIOs told us is right for disruption. And it ended up being a little bit of an avalanche in our data, because it wasn't just Elastic, but it was also Splunk and Dynatrace that we ended up putting ratings on. Now, Elastic as we know is an open source model, a freemium to pay type of model. And we normally try to stay away from open source models, 'cause it's kind of hard to predict how that converts to revenue, but the data was so strong that again, we came out with a positive to neutral rating on Elastic. It was based on just elevated spend levels across, there was almost no negativity, we weren't seeing any decrease or replacement indications, really solid positioning in the fortune 500 accounts, which I was a bit surprised about. And the other thing here is that Elastic tends to be really expanding in the information security. This is no longer just about monitoring and logging, they are becoming a very relevant infosec play and they are breathing down the necks of Splunk. They can do the same thing and they can do it much cheaper. The caveat being, you need to have the IT and the human skillset to run Elastic. So it really comes down to, are you sophisticated enough with the human capital management to run it? But everything we saw here just incredibly improved competitive positioning, they actually had the number one net score in all of information security in any vendor that had over 50 citations. It was just too hard to ignore, we had to come out with a positive neutral. >> That's super interesting Erik, and of course, yeah, we covered that space recently. Everybody wants a piece of Splunk and have for a number of years, but, you know, you see in Datadog come after it, then you see some startups getting into the space. Jeremy Burton launched his company, Observe, Honeycomb is in that, they kind of coined the term observability. Kakao Search is another one. Ed Wall's joined that company, and so you see a lot of folks really going after that space, why not? I mean, it's such a successful company. The pickup of SignalFX filling some holes, we talked about that on the Ven, and it's a very interesting space, and one I think has some somewhat depressed levels from a net score standpoint but as some of your Ven observers said, this market is here to stay and it becoming much more important as part of digital transformation, as part of a dashboard of digital transformation. >> Yeah. Coining that term observability really just hit it on the nail on the head. When we just talked about monitoring an application, that's not what it's about anymore, right? You need to have observability in multi hybrid cloud environments, whether it's your infrastructure or people actually writing code for your application. And so that single pane of glass, end-to-end is the holy grail of monitoring, and that's what these guys are pushing for. The New Relics, the Datadog's, the Elastics, they're getting there more quickly than Splunk and Dynatrace or AppDynamics from Cisco are. That's what the people are telling us, the ones I speak to, the CIOs that use it in the field. They're getting there more quickly and they're doing it more cheaply. Now, this is not to say Splunk is not a great company, we know it is. And also Splunk has more API integration into any ecosystem you want. They're not getting pulled or ripped out anytime soon, we're not saying that. But when we look at our data, we had no choice but to come out with a neutral to negative. They are deteriorating and their spending intentions, their customer growth is completely stalling, we're not seeing any more increased perversion in our dataset or among customers. There just wasn't really anything we could really do. Looking at the data set and that's what we do, we had no choice. There's a lot of skepticism heading into the back half of this year and next year, there's so much competition coming after them, and some of these people are just giving it away for free. It's pretty hard to compete with free. >> Yeah, free is very powerful. All right, speaking of skepticism, Rackspace had their IPO, what do you see in there? >> Oh man, I'm not really sure how to start there. But listen, I don't want to beat a company while it's down, but their net scores are actually negative. I think at the negative 20% range, if I could possibly recall that. But listen, Rackspace, when they were private, let's give them some credit, right? They decided to go out and buy a bunch of different managed service providers, they tried to align themselves with AWS, with Oracle. So they've got this whole bundle thing right now that isn't just straight cloud computing anymore. We'll see if that plays out. But clearly we saw that the IPO was not a very special IPO. In this environment the valuations in the technology stocks being very elevated, having a negative IPO was very telling. But sticking straight to the data, basically we're seeing negativity across several years, it's the worst position vendor in cloud computing that we even cover. We just had to take a look at it right now, and just be honest and say according to the data, this is a very negative data set, there just isn't much we can do about it. Wish them the best, I hope their MSP revenue starts kicking in, and hopefully it'll change. But for right now the snapshot of our data was quite dire. >> Okay, Erik, Well, thanks so much. So let's update folks, so the ETR is exiting, it's quiet, period, which I love, because that means I can have the data and share with you. So we'll be updating our cloud scenarios, security, automation, our infrastructure, and many other segments as well. Certainly the data piece, we've been tracking snowflake very closely. And of course, Erik, you guys are already gearing up for your January survey. So, you know... >> It never ends Dave. And I've... >> Well, I got a really... I've got a sizzle panel that I'm doing next week as well, where we got four sizzles talking about security threats and priorities for 2021. So as soon as I wrap that, you'll be the first one I get my summary to. >> Oh, those are great. I mean, there's such deep dives with practitioners, and it's just an open discussion. So Erik Bradley, thanks so much for coming back in theCube. >> Have a great weekend Dave. >> Yeah, you too. And thank you for watching everybody this episode of Cube Insights powered by ETR. Go to etr.plus, that's where all the survey action is. I publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available on podcast. Wherever you watch, you can DM me, I'm @DVelllante. I post on LinkedIn, you can comment there or email me @david.vellanteat, @siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley. Thanks for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

[Music] hi I'm Stu Mittleman and welcome to a cube conversation really excited to have to the program a first-time guest and a user Vinny Chopra is an IT engineer with Medallia Vinny thank you so much for joining us thank you and - Vinny's left we have Krishnan bad Rena Ryan in who's a director of product marketing with Nutanix Chris thanks so much for you here okay so we always love to be able to dig in with the customers understand the challenges they're facing Chris let's set the table first I'm very familiar with Nutanix we go to all the new tannic shows and the like but for customers what is Nutanix to them why do they turn to Nutanix okay absolutely so I think it's a great time to be in IT you see new businesses that are sprouting at all the last 10 years or so starting with uber Airbnb specifically the ones we've really heard of that have disrupted some really really big industries right so technology is making it happen while IT teams are the ones that help make that happen and helps those CEOs disrupt they're not in the best of positions to utilize infrastructure they have today the way it's set up to be able to get more done be more agile and truly serve the needs of the business and help create those competitive differentiation which is why neutronics is here to help our partners within companies such as yourself to be able to be those people to lean in and help CEOs really achieve what they're trying to get that yeah that's great yeah we definitely see it used to be okay IT was a cost center IT you know business would actually ask for something in IT would often be the no or be really slow and do they work with that so Vinnie before we dig into the IDE piece of it tell us a little bit about Medallia the business what's happening what's Sherma Delia's been around for about 15 years now we're located in it we're headquartered in San Mateo we used to be in Palo Alto moved last year we have a brand new building right off 101 a 92 we our analytics company and we and there's a lot of lots of fields in analytics we specialize in an area called CX which stands for customer experience and our goal is to make our customers customers happy which therefore makes our customers happy and we specialize in doing surveys and then especially in designing surveys for different types of companies and then and then we analyze that data you know surveys well Vinny I I find there's very few companies that I talked to whose industries are stagnant or not changing much the analytic space space that we cover heavily you know here here on the cube and with our research it's boy has that changed a lot I mean five years ago we were talking very much about Big Data today you know all the AI ml and and things like that what what give us a little bit about what's it like being in that business you know fast driving your silicon valley-based I have to imagine that the business is going through a lot of changes that put stresses and strains on IT oh definitely so I better the IT industry for many years and IT area different big companies Sun Microsystems Juniper Networks NetApp in the past excite calm which was a search engine way back when before Google days I remember excite you know because Microsoft didn't they buy that or things well there was an early cerulean at home there's a partnership with that on but yeah excited people would confuse as to wait excite calm what kind of site was that it's like no no it's a search engine back before by the way audience for those of you that haven't been around a while it wasn't all just being in Google there were a lot of predecessors that there was four or five big search engines at that time so most of my company had been out we've always been packaging stuff in a box and selling it in this is my first time at an analytics company and it's it's like you said it's a fast-moving field things are being the things there's no development staging production type of stuff things are just continuously being put into production changes are made you know customized you know customer's applications and their interface so it's it's a very fast-moving alright and Vinny you say IT engineers your job what does that encompass what your role how many people in the group what is your sure so we have basically two IT groups we have one that manages our production data centers which are which our customers interface with and we have one that supports our engineers so I'm part of that group and it's kind of a week up art of the IT system and engineering team and that involves traditional IT tasks like backups monitoring application install new server installs managing storage networking basically keeping infrastructure and applications running as efficiently as possible and therefore keeping our engineers happy because they can get their work done and their development done okay sounds like a you know pretty typical from from what I hear from companies is it what do you hear from customers structure-wise challenges they're facing absolutely so it's very much in line with what you were just talking about where there's these multiple needs from the business and customer expectations so how do you really help IT organizations be able to keep up with those needs infrastructure needs to be the big quittez data needs to be Vic witness application services need to be Vic Willis and you need to be able to scale out as your business needs needs to do so to be able to serve all those multiple requirements so whether it's standardizing internal applications that are delivered through virtual desktops or deploying databases are starting up customer websites you need to be able to do that and respond as quickly as possible and if you're spending cycles on acquiring infrastructure deploying it making sure it's well integrated and then once it's up and running figuring out what went wrong and enjoying those multiple nights of pizza right to figure out how to get this thing going back to the way it was it's it just distracts you from what's important so it's only when you make infrastructure invisible and truly scalable very much cloud-like and and make it your own as a process of doing so can you truly be that business partner and you and I hope we've done that with you definitely all right so Bennie let's go inside was there a specific project rollout that you would that led towards Nutanix was there a pain point you were having would give us kind of the before and what was the mature so traditionally an IT you would you want to set up a new application at you in your infrastructure environment you would buy servers and you would buy storage you would buy HBA cards which helps you connect the servers to the storage you've got things like worldwide numbers to worry about getting the right cables getting the right cards and then you put it all together you get all the stuff delivered and then two weeks later you might have things working and but you having some permission issues security issues so it was always a big challenge to get things up and running so it was the fun of ideas let's roll up our sleeves let's turn those geek knobs and you know optimize everything and yeah within six months I'm sure everything's rocking in right everything's rocking rolling but you're still not quite confident that things are running you're worried that a card might go bad you're worried that a world-wide number might change somewhere or somebody might you know mess up your security so you would spend a lot of time just getting things up and running versus spending time on development and you know working with your people you're supporting and trying to try to enhance things versus just keeping things getting things up and running so Nutanix you know with the hyper-converged infrastructure you know what kind of we're not worried about those things anymore it has our storage needs it has our compute needs it has our memory needs so what was it a refresh cycle what was the impetus that led to looking at a new arc sugar as we were growing and entering base was growing an IT was growing and our requests and you know what we need to satisfy was increasing tremendously we before we were working with just individual desks like desktops or blade servers but each one was kind of working individually with its own storage its own applications not the notion things weren't being shared or anything and we were just growing fast so we needed some we need a new infrastructure where we could actually have everything working of most efficiently and be secure and fast and and easy to manage and so we did look at we did some analysis on a few products and Nutanix you know after some a few pocs Nutanix was our product of choice yeah I mean you described something we heard a lot is it used to be every application you would kind of build your own temple for it yeah let me build it let me get the performance I need let me optimize certain things let me forecast how it's gonna grow but I get islands out there as opposed to I want to be able to scale I don't want to worry about you know here's one of the challenges out there most people and across the board forecasting is really hard or impossible I either overestimated a bunch and then I bought stuff I didn't eat her right under missed it estimate it and then oh my gosh I need to look to a new architecture yeah and then things ended up burning like at 10% of you know you utilizing temperature of the resources that you're purchasing yeah I remain poor virtualization it was like you know six seven percent is usually what we were running awesome so challenges before and we had you know silos out there I couldn't share I couldn't do talk about that that role how did you get from that old environment to the new one there's something I said when you you look at this wave of really a distributed architecture in the old world migrations were really really tough yeah and you had to do it with every cycle hopefully moving to an architecture like this this is your last migration it was like you know my wife always said the last time that's the last time I never want to have to move well I T I'm sure those migrations were always painful what was the experience my heading to migrations was is one thing that we went through but also just now it's just setting up new VMs or new applications new servers it's you know within a few minutes versus hours as far as migration we were we were running a hypervisor before but like I said it was on individual servers so the migration was basically picking your VMs or your servers one at a time and just migrating over to Tenex once it was there and you know with the hypervisor tools that are available it's very easy to use it's like things like vmotion or different types of migration tools that Nutanix offers with their hv hypervisor so it was just it was pretty seamless it was just you just pick and choose and identify your destination host ons Nutanix node or Nutanix cluster and all your stories that you want to move it to and just go okay so so Vinnie you went through a bit of a bake-off to figure out the solution tell us when you finish the deployment how are you measuring what does success mean to in deployment of your stand point and give us the after what show does this change for your process your organization sure qualitatively success is when our engineers are smiling and not calling us too much and asking us go to lunch versus telling us about issues they're having so that's qualitatively quantitatively looking at performance CPU memory I ops performance on a storage how our applications responding that that's what we measured it quantitatively yeah did you know like what kind of utilization you're getting on your current infrastructure then with the Nutanix um also currently you meet as far as uh what you said you were lucky to get 10% in the old world do you measure that yeah we met her that week we kind of um you know we have our kind of have our choices of how much storage you want to use how much CPU remember you want to allocate to each VM and we we just monitor it and through the prism interface that Nutanix offers the image you can actually see performance of each VM and you can decide when to throttle things so but as far as you know how much we're utilizing we're you know we have it we have a structured where we have room to grow so yeah absolutely and if we do need to grow later we can easily add nodes or you know chassis wood notes yeah I think back to the early years of you know what we call hyper converge environments and it was like oh well they are monolithic blocks even if they're small and but you don't have flexibility there when I look at you know many of the solutions especially what Nutanix ups there's a lot of flexibility into how I can grow in scale and get the the utilization that I need but get the performance the ops and everything what I think from your customers how is that story play out today yeah I mean ultimately it's all about empowering people right it's about making IT people truly successful broadening their skillset giving them greater control over the full stack if you will right so it's no longer siloed across functions you're no longer found helpless relying on a different team to deliver upon something that was promised based on a certain SLA so how do we do that how do we make evolved functional specialists into IT journalists would then become cloud engineers true cloud engineers right the world is changing technology is adapting businesses are a craving for more and the only way we can keep up is to adapt ourselves and utilize the best of breed technologies that gives us that power so as a result we hear that a lot where we find a lot of a customer's progressing from being either storage admins network specialists but most likely virtualization admins who then become these cloud engineers if you will they reorganize that way they tend to be in a position where they are a lot more infrastructure we're talking about 100x of what they used to do prior in the in the earlier days so the the number of the ratios just grow immensely as well as the quality of service provided the SAS are far reduced as they used to be so all of that goodness that our customers are able to deliver to their state goes in the organization makes us feel good about what we do if any would love we talked about you know this the engineers now they're smiling and going out to further then you know fighting bugs anything complaining about is yeah anything kind of when you look at skill set if they're you know I've talked to some entertainment customer he's like oh you know I had that security project that was sitting on my desk for years I can finally tackle that or there's I can be more responsive to the business so that they don't you know I can engage with them rather than just going off running it and do in stealth IT any anything along those lines that you can share I mean one thing like IT admins we typically want to know everything right so we all know what's happening behind the scenes with Nutanix we don't have to as much but we still like to and so we we take the opportunity to you know do trainings learn what's happening in an interface you support when needed so as far as yeah as far as skills go I think it's you know the skills you keep up with it's just different like Chris mentioned it's different different type of administration like we're managing virtualization or managing cloud you know you're not just managing loans and cables you know I love you sounds like you've got a team that's got that intellectual curiosity wants to understand what's going on how was the how was the on-ramp how was the kind of the cycle to understand the Nutanix piece how did you yeah so we learned a lot of the POC of course that's when you kind of you know you can play around with stuff and break stuff and try to break stuff if you want we use professional we used some freshly served since to help us get set up originally and after that it was just kind of learning day to day and just improving improving our knowledge in different areas like not if we're not used to having everything in one like in you know in one kind of a couple jassi's storage and you know compute so that was a networking as well so that was a little bit not challenged technically but just just you just need to reset the mindset these are the way I used to do things versus the the way now I can't do three and in troubleshooting um you know the great thing is when we have troubleshooting we're not calling three different vendors like a networking company a storage company in a compute company and having them point fingers oh it's networking now we if I ever have an issue or a question I call Nutanix supporting it so if any how long has it been since you the solution was deployed about two and a half years now awesome so it but you first of all I love your viewpoint as to how Nutanix has changed in those two those two years and along those lines too now that you look at things through the lens of 2018 if you could go back to peers of yours what would you tell them now that you wish you had known back when you rolled this out a couple of years ago I would you know how to tell them there's a much easier way to minute you know the deploy and manager infrastructure and you know this is this is one of the new techniques is definitely something you should look at alright Chris what what advice do you give to the IP people of the world that you know I'm sure most of them heard about this but you know what misconceptions might they have what what things do we want to make sure we open the door for sure so as a former developer myself you know several years ago I think it's very easy for us to forget the role we play in our organizations we're not all about the applications we're not all over the speeds and feeds we had a critical core part of how businesses go to market and achieve success right so let us recognize that and use the best approaches that are available out there to be able to deliver that value right if it means going where the good hyper-converged infrastructure solution if it means leaning in and building new disruptive technologies and such that can help your businesses do better the other thing that I want to highlight is just as you are in the the customer service business I believe we are as well we pride ourselves on our support so if you have if ask questions about how hyper-converged infrastructure can add value call us give support a call you would be put in touch with anyone who can speak about all the values we deliver to our customers and begin to get some of those ideas all right Vinnie uh want to ask you you you've got some experience works for some of the you know really well-known companies you not only here in the valley but in tech in general what's exciting you these days what do you look at either in the analytic space or an IT that that's getting you excited for me it's I like to get up without stress and so ease of management ease of deployment in the IT area is very that that's one of things I look forward to like you know being able to do other stuff than just focusing on data you know routine stuff yeah and one of those lines if I could give you you know the one wish to help make that goal even more either from Nutanix or you know the broad ecosystem out there what would what would make your job even easier you know it's it's I don't know I'm trying to think of a good answer but it's typically you know when issues once them all we have application issues it would just be some kind of self-healing type things you know maybe or maybe some automatic adjustments that could be done that maybe something in the future yeah like I just means as far as resources allocated to different types of yeah all right Chris sure I'll let you have the final word there cuz absolutely once we simplify modernize the platform modernizing the application some it's definitely something I've heard from many of your customers as to you know that role of infrastructure really is to serve up and support those applications and that seems to be where it's going that's right that's right the the business partners right partners the business CFO whoever on the other side of the fence they care about applications and services not so much about all the blood sweat and tears we put into the infrastructure so I think it's an opportunity for us to help us elevate beyond the infrastructure and focus on apps and services along with making sure we have some of those self-healing capabilities such that take care of us and not require us to pay heat to all those infrastructure speeds and feeds so it's a great opportunity to do and you know be truly strategic in the company right alright well Chris really appreciate you sharing the updates Vinny really appreciate you sharing your customer story it's our purpose here at the cube to always help bring out the information so make sure to check out the cube net if you actually go to the top there's a search we've got over five or six thousand interviews we've done including many customers including many of Nutanix go in search Nutanix you'll find a plethora of content out there if you ever have any question for us please reach out to us see us at any of the shows or in between so I'm Stu minimun and thanks again for watching the cube thank you