>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. And when we kicked off this program, Cloud Native Insights, we wanted to talk about the innovation and agility that's happening, not just Cloud as a location. We're going to draw down a little bit into one of the very important pieces of a company and that's their websites and their applications, that live in that environment. And of course, that comes from a lot of changes over the years. Any of us that have been in tech for a couple of decades have worked from the early days, to of course today's multimedia globally distributed environment and everyone during the global pandemic, of course, has been (indistinct) straining their use of the internet. So really excited to welcome to the program the two co-founders of Netlify. I have Matt Biilmann, who is the CEO, and his co-founder Christian Bach, who is the president both of Netlify really the company behind Jamstack, which we're going to explain and talk about a bit. Matt and Chris, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us >> All right so, let's start with just some of the basics. I expect that some of our audience is not familiar with Jamstack. You do a quick Google search and it's JavaScript, its APIs, its markup. And you say, okay, I understand what a bunch of that means. But, yeah, if you could give us kind of a compare contrast to what web development was before and how Jamstack's really helping to revolutionize what's happening in this space. >> Yes, so for many years, we built websites and web applications with an application based architecture, where every website or every application would be this monolithic application with typically like a load balancer, a set of web servers, application servers, and that database and every request through a page would go through this whole stack it would pass through the application layer, talk to the database, fetch template, merge data and template, build HTML on the fly and send it back to the user. And basically what we saw happening and what's been happening with the Jamstack is this decoupling of the actual front-end presentation layer of the websites and web applications and then the back-end layer. And the advantages there is that if you can really pre-build the front-end application layer, you can take the actual HTML, or an application shell and distribute it across a globally distributed network, you can get it into the hands of the user's browser very quickly. And then the back end, what we've seen happening there is that it's split up to all these different APIs and services you no longer have your one monolithic back end you have all these different services. Where some of your own but a lot of them are other people's services like Stripe or Twilio or Algolia or Contentful. So we've seen this shift to this architecture, where we're considered in a way that the stack has moved up a little from the old tooling where something like the LAMP stack would be common in really naming the programming language, the specific web server, the Linux server, the operating system, and so on right? And then up to a level where it's really about getting an application into the browser, using JavaScript as the runtime and talking to this whole new economy of APIs and services. >> Yeah, Chris I wonder if you could bring us inside your customers and the companies that you talk to. I think about for the longest time it was, maybe I just outsource my web development, but website is one of those key components that I share my value, I share what's going on, I want to be able to change it pretty often and there's so much more that I can do today than I could have done 10 years ago. We've watched that mark. So, help us understand, what skill sets do people need to have? what type of companies are using Jamstack? And, bring in if you can, Netlify. How is this a business and not just, an open source standards movement, that's helping to revolutionize what's happening? >> Absolutely, I mean, First of all, people using this and companies use this is extremely wide. Wide vertical, right? Its very horizontal. This is anyone with a digital property basically, right? I think what we've seen all the time is that, that we have a lot more channels than we used to have, right? So we started off just maybe having the one dot com, right? With limited functionality. And today, you have a multiple channels, right? You have the landing pages, you have the domains, you have lots of activities online. You have mobile apps and commerce is often a big part of it, and I would say especially the last few months, there's a lot of people that had the digital convergence points as one of many. And now it's the only ones, right? So I think it's become extremely important. I also think that when you look at your web infrastructure in general, it has been very complex, right? And you need a lot of different people, right? And you need to maintain staging environments, production lines, development environments. You need to, have a wide set of skills to maintain these things, right? And if a web developer wanted to do a lot of things, right? They have to go and tap DevOps and so on on the shoulder, right? And I think what the Jamstack is about saying, hey, you can get so much further as a web developer. Now, if you take the modern built tools, you can take the Git workflows, and you wrap around the browser that has become a full-fledged operating system and the API economy as Matt was just talking about. You have these workflows, or you potentially have these workflows, where you can get so much further, right? And that's very much Netlify submission. So Netlify saw this opportunity of decoupling the front end from the back end of the building from the hosting of creating an approach to making websites that would be many times faster, 'cause you have multiple points of origin and you don't feel fredurous. It's many times safer. There's not that huge surface area of attack. It's much more scalable, and so on. It was sort of a win-win-win. But the problem was, there was no viable workflow. If you take a traditional CDN, and you put it in, it doesn't matter really, if it's one or the other. As good as they (indistinct) services, they're all meant to sit in front of an origin, right? They're meant to buffer something. And if you have the gems, there's no origin in that way, right? The network in itself has to be an origin so it has to be architectured quite differently. And then there's a lot of things around CDCI and how you server lists and so on. That all had to be sort of re-merged . And Netlify is that glue, it is that platform that takes you from local development all the way out to edge nodes. But allows you to mix and match any tool. So it's not program independent. So you can say, well, we use a build tool, and that's PHP or Ruby or JavaScript, the react or Next or whatever it might be, right? And we use these APIs for this server, for this property. Over here we have a commerce site. Over here, we have a dotcom, that needs a huge enterprise CMS with tons of stakeholders. But the thing is that all of those now becomes something that plugs into your website. Rather than have to drive the website itself. And that's sort of frees up the silos. So when we see people using Netlify, we have companies using Netlify. Big Fitness Company, for example, that own fitness company that uses us for developer documentation, or their marketing sites, but also for their dotcom. But even if you go to the equipment that people have at home, and you log in, that's actually using some very nifty identity and remote based access control for Netlify and if you watch the video there, it's also going through a Netlify player, all right? We have fast food chains that has their dotcom and their marketing sites, but also the kiosks down in the store like the menus, the screens there. Rather than being an old Windows NT server running some .NET application in a dusty corner, why not have it like that? And so, both the category but also Netlify sort of brings in a solution and because it's decoupled from all those architectural choices, that means that you can now use the solution in a much, much wider setting. And we were sort of first to market doing this. They get serverless approach where you just push your serverless functions to get better Netlify. First Feature Deploy Previews Were invented by us and so on. So the Jamstack is an extremely wide fundamental architectural approach that matches basically anyone that wants to build web properties. Netlify is the segnostic wide platform that just makes it possible. >> Yeah, good Chris actually, I saw the Peloton use case up on the website and you're right, a very different experience rather than I bring my device, is it synced? Does it work with it? Really integrates those solutions. And you just brought up serverless, which is actually how I got connected to talk in Netlify. So, Matt, sorry, I think you wanted to jump in there but I was wondering if you could help us. I've looked at serverless and what the promise of serverless of course, is that I don't need to think about that underlying infrastructure. I just like developers build our applications. Well, feels like that's really the same mission that you have. And they're serverless is a piece of your story. So, maybe explain (indistinct) that out a little for us. >> Absolutely, I think it ties in, right? Basically, what we saw just from a architectural perspective was this approach of really decoupling front end and back end and so on and working in a new way that gave a lot of benefits to the inducers in performance and security and so on right? But on the other hand, early on, what we saw was that to adopt that approach, like developers had to deal with lot of different moving pieces like CICD, CDN. What to do about the API endpoints that didn't need to be dynamic, and so on. And as Netlify, what we saw was that we could give one intro and workflow for all of this and make it extremely easy for developers to work with this thing. And serverless plays a really important piece there, right? Because when Amazon pioneered AWS Lambda and took it to the world, right? I think the promise also for the front-end web developers of being able to simply write code and then not have to worry at all about where is it actually running? How are we scaling it? How are we operating it and so on, right? That's a really powerful promise, right? But at the same time, in the same way, what we saw earlier on was that for a front-end team to actually adopt serverless functions as part of the Jamstack, it introduced another level of complexity of now having to manage your serverless functions independent from your front end figuring out API Gateway endpoints for every one of them. And how about deployment pipeline for your functions layer versus deployment pipelines for the actual front end layer that's supposed to talk to those front ends. How about staging environments versus to production environments? How do you manage all that, right? So we saw that there was this inherent incredible potential, but also a lot of complexity, right? And as Netlify we saw that if we could give front end developers a web developers in general, an ene-to-end workflow, where they can work both with the front-end framework, write the code that will get deployed into the browser, but also just have a folder where they can write this serverless functions and then know that Netlify will take care of all of the wiring, right? When you open a pull request and get with new function we'll give you a URL on our globally distributed CDN where you can view both the whole front end, but also the function and sidestep sort of all of the complexities of linking together API Gateways, to functions of managing CICD pipelines and test environments and so on. And in the end, the serverless functions starts becoming a really important part of this Jamstack approach, right? Because you have this world where you have a front end that's often talking to many different APIs and services where again, some of your own and some other people's services. But really often you need some place to glue those together or to build your own custom API endpoint that talks to a couple of them and it has access to server site secrets and so on, right? And this idea of not having to suddenly operate and manage a whole set of servers and infrastructure just for that part of it, but simply just writing the code and then knowing, that you don't have to worry about the operation scalability or anything around that code. That's a really powerful paradigm. >> Yeah, that's one of the real challenges of the Cloud as you talk about the Paradox of Choice. There's so many ways to do things. Not necessarily... It's simple anybody... I was a blogger for many years and it was like, well, I'll just use the self-hosted WordPress, because I don't want to have to worry about that piece of it. Matt, I watched it you did a presentation talking about if I wanted to do WordPress hosted in a AWS that absolutely is not simple. I heard a podcast from one of your board members, Tom Preston Werner, talking about we need to be more opinionated. We need to be able to give more guidance to developers, maybe Chris if you could, how are we when the proliferation of choice, keeps increasing, making sure that people can... How do I make that decision tree? And how do we try to keep it simple? >> Absolutely, I mean, and I actually think that, that's a super relevant question, because you have a lot of choice as a web developer today. Front-end developers used to cut out Photoshop files and turn them into HTML, right? Now with the new advanced markup, and they have all these frameworks and flavors of JavaScript to choose between and there's these powerful build tools, And all those workflows and the browser can do everything you can imagine, right? And so yeah, there is a lot of choice out there, right? And I think, for Netlify what's extremely important is that we are opinionated in the right places. And so when it comes to, for example, a front-end tool and built tools and these things that web developers often face with having to choose between. Our role is to make it as simple as possible to use any of them. But also give you the opportunity of saying, well, this new paradigm allows you to actually mix and match, right? It allows you to use this tool for this property and this tool for this property and gives you a ton of flexibility. But still, come under one roof of a platform like Netlify. And I think that is very powerful. And so we also don't want to choose for you, we want to inform your choices and we want to make it as easy as possible to go and say, hey, these are my needs, what direction should I be going? And of course, we work with enterprise clients, so on migration services, and so on, right? And where we help them a lot with that. But if we locked down on a single flavor, or a single bill tool or a single front end framework, then we also limit the application of what we bring to market and we want to remain a little more open-ended there. But I think there's a lot complexity, a platform like Netlify is all about simplification. So all that wiring that Matt just mentioned, that at least goes, right? You don't spend hours configuring bondage caching and trying to find those edge cases, it just works. And that's a huge game changer for a lot of people, right? But there's definitely parts of the ecosystem that has a lot of choice. And we do our best to inform. And I think, under hand holding part, adjacent to that is the story of, well, do we then start using content management systems? Is this a whole new? Is it out with the old and in with the new? And I would say, you still have a lot of those needs, right? You still have non-technical people, for example, that needs to be able to update and create moves and content, and so on, right? And create content. And so you very often will need and an E-commerce solution or content management systems and so on. But what we're seeing there, is that we're speaking basically with every single major CMS out there. That are saying we're working on a headless system, or we already have a headless version, or we just gone full headless, that means that we work decoupled. So we don't no longer need to build the site. But we just provide like an independent source of content. And then it plugs into a platform like Netlify. So that can bring a lot of simplicity. And now you just have to maintain your content, but you don't have to worry about all the different environments and what is up to date and how does some of the infrastructure look like you press a button that commits to get a default preview, and it looks the same everywhere. >> I'm curious, what impact the current global pandemic has had on Netlify, and your customers. I saw you've got a COVID tracking project that you've done. But also now just there's different considerations when I think about what services I need to access from the web and what kind of connectivity the ultimate end user would have. So, what learnings have you had? What's involved there? >> In, obviously we, it depends a lot on, as Chris mentioned, right? The game circus is adopted horizontally across all kinds of areas and businesses and so on, right? So, we've of course seen businesses in sectors that are having a hard time and on the other hand, we've seen businesses and sectors that are exploding, right? We did immediately when the lockdown started happening and the pandemic started happening we set aside like a free plan for projects working in the space of tackling the information sharing around COVID and finding solutions and so on. And that was really interesting to see you mention the COVID tracking project, right? Which was a project like built a short time by small group of distributed incredibly talented front end developers and scientists and so on, right? And I think it was interesting to see that, how the Jamstack and our tooling and so on also really made it possible for them to build as a small distributed team the set of data information and tooling to a global audience, right? Seeing huge traffic peaks at time and just knowing that their architecture and our infrastructure could handle it for them. >> All right. Chris, I've got one, a little bit off to the side here. When I look at what Netlify is doing, you talk about having an open and independent web. And while we are fully supportive of that, we're a little concerned sometimes. If you look at what's happening across the globe, there's a lot of discussions. Will the internet actually fragment? Will certain countries wall off certain environments? Any concerns there? What do you look at? What are you hearing from your customers when you talk about that mission? >> It's one of the big challenges of all time, right? I think we all maybe took for given the Internet as the standard it became right? The way that you can publish without permission is pretty magnificent, right? And it would be indescribably painful for civilization if we lost that, right? And I think fragmentation is something that we all have to sort of worry around. From the way we see it, is that the web, the traditional monolithic approach, right? To which led to as a web that wasn't secure enough and wasn't scalable enough and wasn't performing enough and that's, for example, what opened the door for mobile applications, right? Where it just didn't make sense to pull in the UI every time you turn the page. So we ended up with a form that's it. We prebuilt the application, you download it, and then you speak to service for anything then atmosphere come up with it, right. And that makes perfect sense. That's basically the same architecture that we're bringing to the web a very large scale. Of course, the problem is that now there are gatekeepers there, right? There people, you have to ask for permission to publish and so on. And, and there are other attempts to say, "Hey, we need a performing web." And there's a very big players out there that say, "Let's come over and just..." Do we even need to call it the Internet? Can we just call it our company website? I'm not going to name any names here, right? But leading down, it's what we've called walled gardens, that are great for absolutely no one except for the company. And what we believe is that if you have a web that is secure and is scalable, and it's performant enough to justify at least the architecture maintaining and not having to run into any walled gardens and still say no, you don't need to use a handful of commercial platforms if you want to be heard rather than have your own web properties on your own custom domains, right? I think that's the part of the open independent viable web that we're fighting for. Basically, one that adopts and keeps adopting an architecture that is something that levels the playing field. And then they would also say, why Netlify? I mean, a few years before we started, like, try configuring your own CDN. And like that was reserved for the very, very large tech players. Now you can comment, you can literally click a button on Netlify, you get custom domain and ACS post process site that's globally distributed, automatically integrated into get. And that's on the premium plan. And so as a startup, you can level set together with everyone else and be available widely across the globe without performance issues, immediately. And so in that way, I'm also seeing that's a democrat sensation of performance, right? That means that, that's great. And for places where you see developing economies, where you often have brownouts, where you often can't depend on having viable services and is locally and so on, this idea of having he cover that and having something that's just automatically, you know what, don't even worry about it, because it's already ready to go in all these packets all around the world. That's a huge game changer. That's actually what we see a lot of adoption of the gems they can never find in those places as well. Guess that's just such a promise to the architecture. So, I hear what you're saying and I'm also very concerned about a fragmented web for political reasons as well across the globe. And from our angle, the way we fight for this is to make sure that it retains using an architecture that makes it accessible for me. >> Yeah, I heard many years ago, a friend of mine said, if you're a technologist it means that in general you are a technology optimist, which I definitely try to be. So, I love Chris how you've just brought in some of the potential opportunity Matt, I want to give you just... People out there they hear like oh, 5G is coming, it's going to completely change the world. Anything that you're seeing on your side as to real opportunities that we will see, just a step function in what your company is using. Jamstack, partnering with Netlify in your ecosystem. What are some of the early things that you see that are exciting you down the line for this? >> Part of it is simply like the whole ecosystem around the gem stalk growing up and the tooling, the APIs, the frameworks available around it, and the level of innovation that's triggered. And especially how it's triggering in... Especially how we're seeing like the potential for small, distributed teams to work together and build things with a global impact in a short time. And I remember a couple of years ago, we did a hackathon with together with freeCodeCamp. And of course, like since it was with freeCodeCamp, it was mostly like teams were mostly fairly new to programming and so on, right? It was pretty amazing to see what over a weekend with this architecture and with this tooling, with the vendors that were present there and helping out and so on, what the small teams could actually get done in a weekend, right? Like I remember the winning team had an app where the whole room would see an image on the main stage screen and then on their phone, try to place that image on the map and you would real time see how people ranked, how close they got and get a winner and so on, right? And that was all just from combining APIs and tooling, like history, like Netlify, like Honor Bee, like Google Maps, and so on, right? And I think, in some way we shouldn't forget just how much this kind of ecosystem of readily available APIs and services around this front end stake. It's allowing people to build things that years ago would have taken a very big team probably like a year to build, and suddenly you can have a relatively small group of relatively new programmers built something really impressive, right? So I think that's a trend we'll see continue accelerating And me and Chris are personally involved in advising and helping out a lot of these new startups in the space that are trying to bring new tooling to the world that makes more and more of these things possible and accessible. >> Well, Chris and Matt, I really appreciate you both joining such an exciting space. Talk about the cloud, agility and innovation, such a robust ecosystem. Thank you so much for joining. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> And I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for joining and look forward to hearing more about your CUBE insight. (soft music)

>> From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the CUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020 happening digitally. We're connecting with Red Hat executives, thought leaders, practitioners, wherever they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this online event. Happy to welcome back to the program, Joe Fernandez, who's the Vice President and General Manager, of Core Cloud Platforms with Red Hat. Joe, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. >> All right, so, Joe, you know, Cloud, of course, has been a conversation we've been having for a lot of years. When I went to Red Hat Summit last year, when I went to IBM, I think last year, there was discussion of moving from kind of chapter one, if you will, to chapter two. Some of the labels that we put on things back in the early days, like Hybrid Cloud and Multicloud, they're coming into a little bit clearer picture. So, let's just give a high level, what you're seeing from your customers when they talk about Hybrid and Multicloud environment? What does that mean to your customers? And therefore, how is Red Hat meeting them where they are? >> Yeah, sure. So, Red Hat obviously, serves an enterprise customer base. And what we've seen in that customer base, really since the start and it's really informed our strategy, is the fact that all their applications aren't going to run in one place, right? So they're really employing a hybrid class strategy, a Hybrid and Multicloud strategy, that spans from their data centers out to a public cloud, typically then out to multiple public clouds as their cloud investments grow, as they move more applications. And now, even out to the edge for many of those customers. So that's the newest footprint that we're getting asked about. So really we think of that as the open hybrid cloud. And you know, our goal is really to provide a consistent platform for applications regardless of where they run across all those environments. >> Yeah. Let's get down a second on that because we've had consistency for quite a while. You look at the largest cloud provider out there, they said, hybrid environment, will give you the exact same hardware that we're running in the public cloud of your bet. You know, that in your environment. Of course, Red Hat's a software company. You've lived across lots of platforms. We're going to Red Hat's entire existence. So, you know, where is that consistency needed? How do you, well, think about how Red Hat does things? Maybe the same and a little different than some of the other players that are then, positioning and even repositioning their hybrid story over the last year or so. >> Yeah. So, we're really excited to see a lot of folks in the industry, including all the major public cloud providers are now talking about Hybrid and talking about these types of initiatives that we've been talking about for quite some time. But yeah, it's a little bit different when we talk about Hybrid Cloud, when we talk about Multicloud, we're talking about being able to run not just in one public cloud and then in a non-premise clients that mirrors that cloud. We're really talking about being able to run across multiple clouds. So having that consistency across, running in, say Amazon to Azure to Google, and then carrying that into your on-premise environments, whether that's on Bare Metal, on VMware, on OpenStack, and then, like I said, out out to the edge, right? So that consistency is important for people who are concerned about how their applications are going to operate in these different environments. Because otherwise, they'd have to manage those differences themselves. I'm speaking as part of Red Hat, right? This is what the company was built on, right? In 20 years ago, it was all about Linux bringing consistency for enterprise applications running across x86 hardware, right? So regardless of who your OEM vendor was, as long as you're building to the x86 standard and leveraging Linux as a base, Red Hat Enterprise Linux became that same consistent operating environment for applications, which is important for our software vendors, but also more importantly for customers themselves as they yep those apps into production. >> Yeah, I guess, you know, last question I have for kind of just the landscape out there. We've been talking for a number of years. When you talk to practitioners, they don't get caught up in the labels that we use in the industry. Do they have a cloud strategy? Yes, most companies have a cloud strategy, and if you ask them is their cloud strategy same today, as it was a quarter ago or a year ago, they say, of course not. Everything's changed. We know in today's day and age, what I was doing a month ago is probably very different from what I am doing today. So, I know you've got a survey that was done of enterprise users. I saw it when it came out a month ago. And, you know, some good data in there. So, you know, where are we? And what data do you have to share with us on kind of the customer adoption with (mumbles). >> Yeah, so I think, you know, we put out a survey not too long ago and we started as, I think, over 60% of customers were adopting a hybrid cloud strategy exactly as I described. Thinking about their applications in terms of, in an environment that spans multiple cloud infrastructures, as well as on-premise footprints. And then, you know, going beyond that, we think that number will grow based on what we saw in that survey. That just mirrors the conversations that I've had with customers, that many of us here at Red Hat have been having with those same customers over the years. Because everybody's in a different spot in terms of their transformation efforts, in terms of their adoption of cloud technologies and what it means for their business. So we need to meet customers where they're at, understand that everybody's at a different spot and then make sure that we can help them make that transition. And it's really an evolution, as opposed to , I think, some people in the past might've thought of as a revolution where all the data centers are going to shut down and everything's going to move all at once. And so helping customers evolve. And that transition is really what Red Hat is all about. >> Yeah. And, so often, Joe, when I talk to some of the vendors out there, when you talk about Hybrid, you talk about Multicloud, it's talking about something you mentioned, it's a box, it's a place, it's, you know, the infrastructure discussion. But when I've been having conversations with a lot of your peers of these interviews for Red Hat Summit. We know that, it's the organization and it's the applications that are hugely important as these changes go and happen. So talk a little bit about that. What's happening to the organization? How are you helping the infrastructure team keep up and the app dev team move forward? >> Yeah, so first, I'll start with, that on the technology side, right? One of the things that that has enabled this type of consistency and portability has been sort of the advent of Linux containers as a standard packaging format that can span across all these different (mumbles), right? So we know that Linux runs in all these different footprints and Linux containers, as a portable packaging format, enables that. And then Kubernetes enables customers to orchestrate containers at scale. So that's really what OpenShift is focused on, is delivering an enterprise Kubernetes platform. Again, spanning all these environments that leverages container-based packaging, provides enterprise Kubernetes orchestration and management, to manage in all those environments. What that then also does on the people front is bring infrastructure and operations teams together, right? Because Kubernetes containers represents the agility for both sides, right? Or application developers, it represents the ability to pay their application and all their dependencies. And know that when they run it in one environment, it will be consistent with how it runs in other environments. So eliminating that problem of, works on my machine, but it doesn't work, you know, in prod or what have you. So it brings consistency for developers. Infrastructure teams, it gives them the ability to basically make decisions around where the best places to run these applications without having to think about that from a technology perspective, but really from things that should matter more, like cost and convenience to customers and performance and so forth. So, I think we see those teams coming together. That being said, it is an evolution in people and process and culture. So we've done a lot of work. We launched a global transformation office. We had previously launched a Red Hat open innovation labs and have done a lot of work with our consulting services and our partners as well, to help with, sort of, people in process evolutions that need to occur to adopt these types of technologies as well as, to move towards a more cloud native approach. >> All right. So Joe, what one of the announcements that made it the show, it is talking about how OpenShift is working with virtualization. So, I think back to the earliest container days, there was a discussion of, "oh, you know, Docker and containers, "it kills VM." Or you know, Cloud of course. Some Cloud services run on VMs, other run on containers, they're serverless. So there's a lot of confusion out there as to. >> Yep. >> What happened, we know in IT, no technology ever dies, everything's always additive. It's figuring out the right solutions and the right bet. So, help us understand what Red Hat is doing when it comes to virtualization in OpenShift and Kubernetes and, how is your approach different than some of what we've already seen in the marketplace? >> Yeah, so definitely we've seen just explosive adoption of containers technology, right? Which has driven the OpenShift business and Red Hat's business overall. So, we expect that to continue, right? More applications moving towards that container-based, packaging and deployment model and leveraging Kubernetes and OpenShift to manage those environments. That being said, as you mentioned, virtualization has been around for a really long time, right? And, predominantly, most applications, today, are running virtualized. And so some of them have made the transition to containers or were built a container native from the start. But many more are still running in VM based environments and may never make that switch. So, what we were looking at is, how do we manage this sort of hybrid environment from the application perspective where you have some applications running in containers, other applications running in VMs? We have platforms like Red Hat, OpenStack, Red Hat Virtualization that leveraged the KVM hypervisor and Red Hat Enterprise Linux to serve apps running in a VM based environment. What we did with Kubernetes is, instead, how could we innovate to have convergence on the orchestration and management fund? And we leveraged the fact that, KVM, you know, a chosen hypervisor, is actually a Linux process that can itself be containerized. And so by running the hypervisor in a container, we can then span VMs that could be managed on that same platform as the containers run. So what you have in OpenShift Virtualization is the ability to use Kubernetes to manage containerized workloads, as well as, standard VM based workloads. And these are full VMs. These aren't micro VMs or, you know, things like Firecracker Kata Container. These are standard VMs that could be, well, Windows guests or Linux guests, running inside those VMs. And so it helps you basically, manage that type of environment where you may be moving to containers and more cloud native approach, but those containers need to interact or work with applications that are still in a VM based deployment environment. And we think it's really exciting, we've demoed it at the last Red Hat Summit. We're going to talk about it even more here, in terms of how we're going to bring those products to market and enable customers. >> Okay, yeah, Joe, let me make sure I understand this because as you said, it is a different approach. So, number one, if I'm moving towards a (mumbles) management solution, this is going to fit natively into what I'm doing. It's not taking some of my traditional management tools and saying, "oh, I also get some visibility containers." There's more, you know, here's my Kubernetes solution. And just some of those containers happen to be virtualized. Did I get that piece right? >> Yeah, I think it's more like... so we know that Kubernetes is going to be in in the environment because we know that, yeah, people are moving application workloads to standard Linux containers. But we also know that virtual machines are going to still exist in that environment. So you can think about it as, how would we enable Kubernetes to manage a virtual machine in the same way that it manages a Linux container? And, what we do there, is we actually, put the VM inside the container, right? So because the VM, specifically with (mumbles) is just a Linux process, and that's what a Linux container is. It's a Linux process, right? So you can run the hypervisor, span the virtual machines, inside of containers. But those virtual machines, are just like any other VM that would run in OpenStack or Red Hat Virtualization or what have you. And you could, vSphere for example. So those are traditional virtual machines, that are now being managed in a Kubernetes environment. And what we're seeing is sort of, this evolution of Kubernetes to take on these new types of workloads. VMs is just one example, of something that you can now manage with Kubernetes. >> Okay. And, help me understand what this means to really the app dev in my application portfolio. Because you know, the original promise of virtualization was, I can just stick my application in a VM and I never need to think about it ever again. And well, that was super helpful when windows NT was going end of life. In 2020, we do find that most companies do want to update their applications, and they are talking about, do I refactor them? Do I make them microservices architecture? I don't want to have that iceberg of an application that I'm just dragging along slowly into the new world. So. >> Yeah. >> What is this virtualization integration with Kubernetes? You mean for the AppDev and the applications? >> Yeah, sure, so what we see customers doing, what we see the application development team is doing is modernizing a lot of their existing applications, right? So they're taking traditional monolithic applications or end tier, like the applications that may run in a VM based environment and they're moving them towards more of a distributed architecture leveraging microservices based approach. But that doesn't happen all at once either, right? So, oftentimes what you see is your microservices, are still connected to VM based applications. Or maybe you're breaking down a monolithic application. The core is still running in a VM, but some of those business functions have now been carved out and containerized. So, you're going to end up in a hybrid environment from the application perspective in terms of how these applications are packaged, and deployed. The question is, what does that mean for your deployment architecture? Does it mean you always have to run a virtualization platform and a container platform together? That's how it's done today, right? OpenShift and Kubernetes run on top of vSphere, they run on top of Amazon and Azure and Google bands, and on top of OpenStack. But what if you could actually just run Kubernetes directly on Bare Metal and manage those types of workloads? That's really sort of the idea. A whole bunch of virtualization solution was based on is, let's just merge VMs natively with Kubernetes in the same way that we manage containers. And then, it can facilitate for the application developer. This evolution of apps that are running in one environment towards apps that are running essentially, in a hybrid environment from how they're packaged and deployed. >> Yeah, absolutely, something I've been hearing for the last year or so, that hybrid deployment, pulling apart application, sometimes it's even, the core piece as you said, is on premises and then I might have some of the more transactional pieces happening in the public cloud. So really interesting. So, how long has Red Hat been working on this? My (mumbles), something, you know, I'm familiar with in the CNCF. I believe it has been around for a couple of years. >> Yeah. >> So talk to us about just kind of how long it took to get here and, fully support stateful applications now. What's the overall roadmap look like? >> Yeah, so, so (mumbles) as a open source project was launched more than two years ago now. As you know, Red Hat really drives all of our development upstream in the open source community. So we launched (mumbles) project. We've been collaborating with other vendors and even customers on that. But then, you know, over time we then decided, how do we bring these technologies to market, which technologies make sense to bring the market? So, (mumbles) is the open source project. OpenShift and OpenShift Virtualization, which is what this feature is referred to commercially, is the product that then we would ship and support for running this in production environments. The capabilities, right. So, I think, those have been evolving as well. So, virtual machines have a specific requirements in terms of not only how they're deployed and managed, but how they connect to storage, how they connect networking, how do you do things like fencing and all sorts of live migration and that type of thing. We've been building out those types of capabilities. They're certainly still more to do there. But it's something that we're really excited about, not just from the perspective of running VMs, but just even more broadly from the perspective of how Kubernetes is expanding to take on new workloads, right? Because Kubernetes has moved far beyond just running, cloud native applications, today, you can run stateful services in containers. You can run things like AI and machine learning and analytics and IoT type services. But it hasn't come for free, right? This has come through a lot of hard work in the Kubernetes community, in the various associated communities, the container communities, communities like (mumbles). But it's all kind of trying to leverage that same automation, that same platform to just do more things. The cool thing is, it'll not just be Red Hat talking about it, but you'll see that from a lot of customers that are doing sessions at our summit this year and beyond. Talking about how, what it means to them. >> Yeah, that's great. Always love hearing the practitioner viewpoint. All right, Joe, I want to give you the final word when it comes to this whole space things kind of move pretty fast, but also we remember it when we first saw it. So, tell us what the customers who were kind of walking away from Red Hat Summit 2020 should be looking at and understanding that they might not have thought about if they were looking at Kubernetes, a year or two ago? >> Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is, yeah, Kubernetes and this whole container ecosystem is continuing to evolve, continuing to add capabilities and continue to expand the types of workloads, that it can run. Red Hat is right in the center of it. It's all happening in open source. Red Hat as a leading contributor to Kubernetes and open source in general, is driving a lot of this innovation. We're working with some great customers and partners, other vendors, who are working side by side with us as well. And I think the most important thing is we understand that it's an evolution for customers, right? So this evolution towards moving applications to the public cloud, adopting a hybrid cloud approach. This evolution in terms of expanding the types of workloads, and how you run and manage them. And that approach is something that we've always helped customers do and we're doing that today as they move out towards embracing a cloud native. >> All right, well, Joe Fernandez, thank you so much for the updates. Congratulations on the launch of OpenShift Virtualization. I definitely look forward to talking to some the customers in finding out that helping them along their hybrid cloud journey. All right. Lots more coverage from the CUBE at Red Hat Summit. I'm Stu Miniman ,and thank you for watching the CUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live! From Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE! Covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite, I'm your host Rebecca Knight, co-hosting alongside of Stu Miniman. We are joined by Frank Artale, the Managing partner at Prime Foray, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE Frank. >> Glad to be here. >> So before the cameras were rolling, we were talking about the energy of this place, you've been to many, many an Ignite, way back before it was even called Ignite. >> Oh yeah! Yes, this is, Ignite is the evolution of something that Microsoft used to call TechEd. So it was like back in, when I was in Microsoft, so even back in the '90s, we had to figure out a way to educate the technical community, and we decided to start this thing, and interestingly enough, the first one ever was here in O\rlando, much smaller venue, I think at The Swan and the Dolphin, but I've been coming to them on and off, you know for the past, 26 years or so. >> So tell us a little bit about what you're doing now at Prime Foray, what is Prime Foray? >> So we're a boutique and advisory consulting company, and we do work with what I call ISVs, so basically someone that makes software, but we engage with folks who are at some point on a journey to cloud, and that means both from a business and technical perspective. Whether they're just getting started, thinking about moving products, that maybe they had it from on premises, onto a cloud platform, or maybe they're well on their way and they're really looking to just like amplify and accelerate that. That's where a team of people that'll have experience from product, business development, sales and marketing, to really get those companies to the place that they want to be, relative to cloud, because as we know, cloud is still the future, and everyone wants to get there. >> All right, so Frank, bring us inside. Without giving away state secrets, dealing with Microsoft today is very different from the company that we grew up with, of Windows and Office. So what's it like working with Microsoft? Give a little bit of you know, where some of the key enablers are. >> Yeah, yeah so in the early days, if you think about it right, Microsoft is always great with evangelizing to an independent software vendor, around building to the platform. So back in the day, so much of the Microsoft actual market cap, was dependent upon the ISVs building to the APIs. And the APIs were the sort of the lock, right, until the ISVs were locked. But there never was a really, let's say a great channel program for someone that was an ISV. The channel programs are largely structured for people that sold stuff. And so what you're really seeing now for the first time, and this is not exclusive to Microsoft, with other cloud partners. But of course since we're at a Microsoft show, we can highlight some of the things that Microsoft is doing here, it really is creating super incentives for ISVs to come to the platform, such that the ISVs feel like they are selling side by side, side by side with Microsoft. There are some great incentives around that, they provide some great access to technology and tools, really great credits to get onto the platform, and so they focus as much on the business, like they always put more on the business now, than on the access to the technology, to the extent that it can work side by side with a company in building their business, well the folks that are the business owners really like that. The tech guys always like bits and bytes wherever they can go. >> So, describe how the partnership works. I mean what is, as you are now holding hands with companies that are going through a digital transformation, and some working closely with Microsoft, some may be just on the fringes of working with Microsoft, describe how the partnership is working. >> Yeah, so well, I would call it, I'd like to say that it's really in someways an evolution of the way Microsoft started working with ISVs, a number of years ago, and so at the core, the way Microsoft thinks about them, thinks about the ISVs is really, you know, an extension of their own product line. Right, so a platform is only as good as the things that, that stand atop it, right? And so, if Azure is a platform, or Business Apps is a platform, or Modern Workplace is a platform, you need applications that sit atop those things. And, one of I think the, one of the key things that Microsoft has done, has really enabled the ISVs to become connected with the Microsoft Sales Organization, without having intermediaries. So when, like in a lot of ways, when you're an ISV and you go work with a larger company that you want to have a partnership with, you have to find somebody that knows somebody that's the Account Manager for some large account. What Microsoft has done is they've automated that, once you've passed through a series of hurdles and certifications, you can actually enter into a program where you're opening leads into Microsoft and you get, and that partner, gets connected with the Microsoft Sales Team on the other side. So whenever I talk to people about things that they're doing, that's what I think the ISVs are most proud of. You'll hear them say things like, well, we are in X amount of accounts together with Microsoft. And, you know we're going, and from a business perspective, why ever enter into a partnership, if you were not going to just, to sell stuff? Again, you can do bits and bytes all day, it's a lot of fun for people like me, but at the end of the day, revenue has to come out the other side. And I think from a partner perspective, they've done a better than good job at that. >> All right. So Frank, when you look back to when you were inside Microsoft, give a little bit about how the roles have been changing as we've gone into this world of cloud and AI. >> Right, how the world has changed? >> And the roles inside of Microsoft, specifically, to, you know, fit the world. >> Right right. So when I was there, you know long ago, obviously it was a much smaller place, and you actually had, you know inside the house, you had product development, and you know, outside the house, you had channel development, and then you had, then you had direct sales, and you also OEM sales which was, which actually is a very very big piece to the puzzle. But, the linkage, right, between sales and channel, wasn't really there back then. And sometimes, like even the role that I had in program management, at times we had to be, we had to be glue for that. I think what, you know, in a sense now with the roles have changed is such a way, that you have, you have people, you know inside the house now that are really responsible for not just ensuring that a partner feels good about what they're doing, but that the partners are actually selling side-by-side with folks in the field. And that would've been, you know, an impossible thing, really impossible thing to do at the time. And so the other thing that's, I think that's really changed, is now that you have, you have an overlay sales organization, called Worldwide Commercial, and also a direct sales organization. So direct sales organization, are people that carry the bag and have quota right on the accounts. But then, you have another organization, that looks after the 500 largest accounts, and there are a lot of specialists in that organization, that by definition work with partners to move both the Microsoft products and the partner's products together in there. And so those are large organizations that plain and simply just didn't exist, and they may have not even made sense at the time, 'cause at the time a lot of what we were doing in the '90s we were still distributed computing, with still really a technical curiosity, and then it became trusted infrastructure. And it's really only in the last few years that cloud computing has moved beyond that, from being a technical curiosity, to trusted infrastructure. And the way it's taken to market, is so much different, because we took finished goods to market, we relied on people to carry boxes of stuff, we relied on people to do inventory. There's no more inventory, I mean it's just there, you turn it on and you go. So I think what you'll see also from again, from where the commerce engines are setup, and the kind of people that are deployed, are really being tooled for that kind of a go to market, which is significantly different. >> So we're really just scratching the surface when it comes to cloud. As you said so many of these companies are only at the beginning of their journeys. What do you think the future holds, in terms of trends in the marketplace and what companies are going to continue to want. And are there any blind spots, that you, as someone who's being at this industry for 36 years, sort of know are there? >> Right, so like today was an interesting one, to see ARC announced. And you know, it shows the natural evolution of the way that we think about a platform. So, if we go back to even like the late 80s right, we had to build servers, right? So you got a network operating system, and there was a set of network adapters, and a set of hardware it worked on, and you had to pay a systems integrator, to go put it all together, and then you kind of hope it worked. Well then we got this stuff call plug-and-play, in the early 90s, and it flattened the playing field, and you can take an operating system like Windows NT the one that I worked on, and as long as it'd adhere to a plug-and-play standard, it generally worked on that platform. But the operating system then grew, to become a collection of services. It was a file server, it was an identity server, eventually, things like transaction processing, networking was always in there. Now if you look at what something like ARC, or any of the services that are available on other clouds, they're really services on which applications are built. So now it's just natural to see that these services like from the cloud vendors, are being taken on to other cloud infrastructures. So today, we are here at Microsoft, you see ARC which is a set of Azure services, which are being made available and useful on other platforms like on-premises, as an example. To me that's no surprise, for Microsoft, they kind of led the way with that, with their IOT technology. How you see Azure services moving onto there. So now, from an opportunity perspective, as someone who's building applications, you can say OK, I can now go look at services that are I know will be available on all clouds. So I have a, let's just say I can, I can snap to that, and now I can go to my customer and also talk about a flexible, you know flexible opportunity about where and why you might want to deploy. So more opportunities around that though, what gets complex, management gets complex, security gets complex, we're sounding like the '90s again right, where whole industries grew up around things like performance and security, you know, and systems management, around that. And so, I think, you know from a, just strictly from an opportunity perspective, you know there'll be companies here that see that, and go take advantage of it to get out in front, and there'll be ones that are already incumbents, and hang on for dear life, saying things have to be different on each cloud, but I think, as you see companies that embrace the notion of sets of services that'll be running across clouds, those are where really the opportunities will be. Just like we saw in the '90s, folks that said hey, I'll run my application on Windows NT, on any piece of hardware, right? They didn't tie themselves to I'll just say like, you know Compaq, or Tandem, folks that don't exist anymore. (Rebecca laughs) Now they've got the folks we have here today. >> All right, so Frank you know you can't get through an interview with theCUBE without getting a question from John Furrier. >> Frank: Okay, is he on? >> So John's been watching, and he wants to know, how's the restaurant scenes doing in Seattle? >> Okay so, the Seattle restaurant scene's second to none. Obviously you need cuisine. Two restaurants that I'm personally involved with, one is downtown Seattle, and a one in, one in Bellevue Washington. Both completely different cuisines, one heavy on steak, one heavy on plants, and we like to say, we're up and to the right on both of those John, so thanks for asking. >> Great, excellent. Frank Artale, always a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much. >> Great, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas for Dell Technologies World. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Dave, we've got Pat Gelsinger back on theCUBE. He stopped by yesterday, did a flyby after his keynote to kick off our intro section. He's back for the sit-down. >> (laughs) Welcome back. >> I can't get enough of you, Pat. >> CEO of VMware, Pat Gelsinger. >> Yeah, I love to photobomb you guys, so it was great. >> Anytime. I know you're super busy, business is going great. And you know, what a three years its been. I remember the keynote you gave at VMworld a few years ago. This was really on a time where, I would call it the seminal moment for you because you saw a vision, and we've talked privately and on theCUBE about, and you gave this speech of this is going to be the preferred future, and it was very visionary-oriented, but it ended up happening. That became the beginning of a run for VMware. And since then, you've been kind of chipping away and filling in all the tech pieces, the business model, and deals, with Amazon and now Azure and others. How are you feeling about it? What's the highlights? What's your perspective of where we are now? What's the notable accomplishments? >> Well you know, it's been just great. And you think about the run that we've been on where we, five years ago, we described a hybrid future. And you know, most people said, what are you, stupid? And you know, student body right to the public cloud. And now everybody is starting to understand the difficulty of replatforming, right? And says wow, this is really hard. I can spend millions and millions of dollars, in fact, one customer's estimate was that they were going to spend almost $1 billion replatforming all their applications to the cloud. And when they got them cloud-native, what do they have? The same apps. So imagine going to your board and saying I'm going to spend $1 billion just so I can be on the cloud, but give you no new business value. You've got to be kidding! And that's why this hybrid future, and as I like to joke, Andy, five years ago, Andy Jassy said if you're running your own data center, you're stupid. And Pat said if you're using Amazon, you're stupid. And now we're doing bro hugs on stage with each other. (laughter) >> And by the way, hybrid, you picked that trend that was right. Multi-cloud, though, came out of more a reality, less of an operating vision, 'cause hybrid cloud, you know, you saw the dots, connected those dots, but I think multi-cloud was much more of just a reality. When people started to realize that as I started doing stuff on premises, wow, I got native workloads on the cloud, and there are benefits for being in the cloud first for certain workloads. But then the multi-cloud thing comes up. >> And I think everybody has started to realize, and I really, as I would say, I think every CIO needs a three-cloud strategy. Making their private data centers into a proper operating private cloud. And some of this week's announcements, I'm sure we'll get back to those a little bit, to me are just a huge dimension. You know, VMware Cloud on Dell EMC, you know, a huge accelerant of making your private data center op like a private cloud, right, at scale. Second, you need a primary public cloud partner. And I think most people should pick a primary. Not one, a primary, and then a secondary cloud, right, you know, as their partners. And then you have your range of SAS offerings. And I think that needs to be the core, right, of every IT, CIO's strategy for the future. And our objective is to create an environment between what we're doing with VMware Cloud Foundation, and now VMware Cloud on Dimension. What we're doing with Amazon, our preferred partner for the public cloud offering. What we announced this week with Azure, right? Our 4000 other cloud partners, including, you know, very successful relationship with IBM. And saying, okay, that's your infrastructure. And the bulk of your workloads should run on a VMware environment that we can operate across that, with the same tools, the same interfaces, the same security, the same management tools, and then use the other cloud services as they bring you business value. You're a fan of Tensorflow? Go for it, baby. Right? You know, and use it in your app. You love function as a service with Lambda, go for it. But the bulk of your workload should lay in here and use these where they have business value. >> And to follow up on the three legs of the cloud stool, the CIO's legs, number three is for what? Is it for risk mitigation, exit strategies, or more specific best-of-breed, horses-for-courses type of workloads. >> Yes, yes, and yes. To some degree, really it's saying, nobody wants to say, I'm only in one. Right? Nobody wants to lock in for it. Also you know, clearly, hey, you know, these are technologies that break. You get more resilience that way, right? You want to be able to manage your cost environments. There's clearly this view of okay, you know, if I can do one, two, and three, I can do N. 'Cause most people are also going to end up picking, oh, I'm in Hong Kong. Okay, I need a Hong Kong cloud, because my data can only go there. You know, I'm in Malaysia, oh, they require all data to be there. 'Cause a practicality, if you're a big enterprise company, it's not just going to be three. You're going to need to be four, five, and six as well, for regional. And then you're going to acquire somebody, they're using a different partner. It really says, build an operational environment that works that way. Give myself business flexibility. I have application flexibility, and if I've done that, I really can move to the other environments that my business requires. >> I think one of the reasons why you guys have been so successful, if I go back five or six years, I remember you laying out the market, the market segmentation, you're obviously close to customers. You're a very clear thinker. You've obviously looked at the market for multi-cloud. How do you describe that, how do you look at the TAM, how big is it? >> Well you know, if you think about cloud today, right, we're closing in on $100 billion of the public cloud. You add SAS to it, you know, you got almost another $100 billion at that level. And you know, the overall data center market is probably on the order of, you know, $1 trillion-ish. >> Give or take. (laughs) >> Yeah, on that order. And then you know, you throw the operations costs inside of it, you're probably looking at something that's, you know, on the order of $2 trillion as well. So this is a big market, right? You know, part of the excitement that people are seeing in this cloud environment, is that they can just go faster. And as I described in the keynote today, we want to enable every one of our customers to stop looking down and look up, right? Spend less time looking down at the infrastructure. We're going to operationalize it, we're going to automate it for you, we're going to take care of it so that every one of your engineers can become software engineers building app and business value. >> I want to ask you on that point, because one of the things, I was talkin' last night, the analyst said at the briefing or the reception was, having a debate with one of the strategists in Dell, and I'm like, look it, outcomes are great at the top of the stack. Looking up, you want outcomes. But during the OSI stack days, no one cared about outcomes. It was either token ring or Ethernet. Speed won, so certain things have to be speed-driven, world-class, and keep getting better. And so that's what we're seeing as an infrastructure requirement. Horizontal scalability, operational scale. So that's a speeds and feeds game. So the outcome there is faster (laughs), and simpler. Up the stack, data becomes a big part of that. That, more, is where we see outcome. Do you see it that way, Pat? Because you know, again, infrastructure is often, that's how they said it on stage. We want to have whole new-paved, new infrastructure for this generation, essentially a refresh of infrastructure. Okay. Well, what does it look like? It's got to be fast, got to be flexible, software-defined. Your thoughts? >> So you know, clearly, I mean, what we're trying to do is we build this common infrastructure layer. And build an environment that allows you to be fast, but also allows you to be in control and cost-effective. Because if you would say, oh, I just want to be fast, ah, that doesn't work, right? We still have limited budgets, and you know, people, someday there's a CFO day of reckoning. But you also have to realize, part of the hybrid cloud laws that I described this morning, you know, one of those is the laws of physics, right? Hey, my factory automation for robotics needs to be 40 milliseconds, period. And if I round-trip to the cloud at 150 milliseconds, guess what? (laughs) >> Latency. >> Right. You know, my image recognition for being able to detect my autonomous vehicle is less than 50 milliseconds. I can't round-trip to the cloud. It has to be fast, right, but we also need to be able to push more of this data, more of the inference of my machine learning and AI closer to the edge. That's why, you know, you heard Michael talk about, and Jeff talk about this explosion of data. Most of that data will be at the edge. Why? Because every camera, you know, every sensor will be developing it, and I'm not going to round-trip it to the cloud because of economics. I can't afford to take all that data to the cloud. It's not just the latency. >> Latency matters. >> Yeah. And so for that, so I can't take it to the cloud, I got to be able to compute locally. I got to be able to apply the inference of my AI models locally, but you know, I also then need to scale aspects of cloud as well. My third law, of course, was regulation, where you know, guess what? I was just with a major customer in Latin America, and they said they are repatriating 100% of their data and applications out of the public cloud, 'cause the new president, right, is assisting on data only in his country for all of their nationalized resources and assets. >> So that's driving the change. This brings up the multi-cloud kind of thing earlier. You guys got to play in all the ponds out there, in the industry. But let's talk about on-stage here at Dell Technologies World. You were on-stage with Michael Dell and Satya Nadella, and I was lookin' up there. I'm like, man, the generational knowledge of the three people on-stage, the history. >> (laughs) I think that just means I'm getting old. (laughs) >> Well I mean, you've seen it all. I mean, from Intel, to EMC, to VMware. Dave and I, Dave's a historian of tech, as he'll self-claims, but I'm up there, I was pretty blown away. You guys are leading the industry. What kind of moment was that for you, because now you've got Microsoft doing a deal with VMware. Who would've thought that would happen? >> Well, maybe two different aspects to it. You know, one is, I've known Satya for over 25 years. You know, he was sort of going through the Microsoft ranks, Windows NT, SQL, et cetera. (laughter) You know, at the same time I was. So we got to know each other. Almost 25 years since our first interactions. When Michael Dell first came to Intel to meet Andy Grove to get microprocessors so he could start his business, I was there. So I mean, these relationships are decades old. So in that view, it's sort of like, hey Satya, how's the wife, you know. (laughter) Hey Michael, how's Susan doing? Really, it-- >> But you haven't even gone anywhere, you're still in the industry. (laughs) >> Yeah. But then to be able, the announcement was really pretty special in the sense that I call it 20 years in the making. You know, not a year or two, 20 years in the making, 'cause VMware and Microsoft has essentially been at odds with each other for two decades. You know, at that level. And to be able to be on-stage and saying, that's right, we're cooperating on cloud, we're cooperating on client, and we're cooperating on futures, okay, that's a pretty big statement as well. And I think customers respond very positively to that. And you know, I'm-- >> It's been a bold move, and you also made a bold move with the cloud, too, Pat. I got to say, that was another good call. Partnering with Andy Jassy. Again, once, both idiots, I guess, calling each other clever, you know. (laughs) Hey, public cloud, at odds, partner. Boom. >> And I really think this idea, moving headwinds to tailwinds. And you know, the Amazon partnership with Andy, and as we say, it's our preferred cloud partner, VMware Cloud, our native US hub, VMware-offered service. You know, super committed to it. We're closing in on 2000 customers on that now. >> Clarify the Amazon relation. I saw some press articles that kind of missed, skewed a little bit. They kind of made it sound like the Azure deal was similar to the Amazon deal. So just explain the difference between the VMware deal with AWS and Andy Jassy, that relationship, and the other cloud ones. Take a minute to explain that. >> Yeah, thank you. And what we're doing with Amazon is VMware is offering a cloud service that I operate for customers, that runs on Amazon. And that is a VMware-delivered service. They're our preferred partner. We're not bashful about that, that if we have the choice, that's the one to go to. It's going to be best. But what we've done now with Azure is we've made the VMware Cloud Foundation, the same underlying components, available with CloudSimple and Virtustream, they're partners, to have a VMware Cloud Foundation offering delivered by Microsoft as a first-party service. So VMware Cloud, VMware is delivering it. In the Azure for VMware services, that's being delivered and supported by Microsoft. >> And that's the same deal you did with IBM. >> It's very, the same-- >> Google and other ones. >> Yeah, the same as we've done with our 4000 other cloud partners, right? And obviously, Virtustream and CloudSimple are part of that 4000, and they're making the VMware Cloud Foundation available to Azure customers now. >> And what's the benefits to VMware's customers for those deals? >> Well, imagine that you're somebody in, Walmart was quoted in the press release, as an example. Walmart's a big VMware customer. Walmart is also a big Azure customer. So their ability to say, oh, I can have a hybrid environment makes a lot of sense for that kind of customer. So we really do see it as saying, you know-- >> Customer-driven, basically. >> Absolutely. And people said, which are you going to sell to us? Well in most cases, customers have already decided who their major cloud partners our. We're saying that VMware offering, even though we're first and best with Amazon, we're saying as they make their cloud choices, we'll have a valid VMware Cloud Foundation offering available. >> And best, I want to understand best. Best is, in part, anyway, because of the engineering you guys have done. When we interviewed Andy Jassy in November at re:Invent, he said you can't have a lot of these types of partnerships. And it's very deep integration. Is that why it's best? And what makes it best? >> Yeah, I call it first and best for two reasons. One is because we are engineering, we are co-engineering, the bits first get done on VMware Cloud, and then we make 'em available to the other partners. That's where we're doing the core engineering, the innovation. Andy has hundreds of engineers working on this. I have hundreds of engineers working on it. So it's first and best from an engineering sense. And, given it's my service and my offering, we're selling it aggressively in the marketplace, positioning it as part of the broader set of solutions and leveraging that, like you saw this week with the Dell EMC offering, VMware Cloud on Dell EMC. It's leveraging all that first and best work to now bring it on-premise as well. So it really is both the engineering as as a go-to-market. >> I'm going to ask some CEO questions. (laughs) So Tom Sweet has said they're happy to have the Class V transaction behind them. I'm sure you're glad, too. Thank you. That was very generous of you. >> (laughs) >> You've been incredibly good at acquisitions. I mean, obviously Nicira, Heptio, CloudHealth, AirWatch, I mean, on and on. >> VeloCloud. >> VeloCloud. I mean, most acquisitions, frankly, don't live up to their objectives. I think that's not the case for VMware. So now you're, good news is you draw off a lot of cash, so you're building up that pot again. How do you see, going forward, use of that cash? R and D, M and A, maybe you could make some comments there to the extent you can? >> Yeah, and you know, we said the primary ways we use cash, stock buybacks and M and A. And that continues. We did the special one-time dividend, which helped Dell go public. Everybody's happy. The market's responded super positively on both the Dell side. They're up, what, 40% since they go public. VMware up almost 50% this year. Just tremendous. >> Tremendous, $80 billion value now, awesome. >> Yeah, just tremendous. And, right then, we said going forward, it's business as usual for us. We're going to continue to do stock buybacks. We're going to continue to do M and A's. As you've said, we're good at this acquisitions stuff. And part of that is, I call it, imagine you're a hot startup company. And you say, do I want to be part of VMware? And we try to answer these questions. Do we have vision alignment? >> (laughs) >> Second is, can we accelerate your vision? Because most startups, you know, I mean, you talk about unicorns and so on like that. But what really motivates them is their vision. And if they believe their vision is going to be accelerated as part of VMware, so they're on this and we're going to turn 'em to that, aw man, they get excited. Do we have a cultural fit? I mean, with every CEO of our acquisitions, and HR does, we really, are they going to fit our team? Because you know, cultural issues, you can't butt your heads day and night. Life's too short. >> Certainly VMware, you guys are (laughs) that culture's very hardcore. Work hard, play hard. (laughter) >> Yeah, and you know, it has to be this deep drive for technical innovation, right? The technical due diligence that we do with our startups. Right? It's sort of like, you know, this is like a PhD exam for these, I mean, they really got to know their stuff. >> Yeah, so people don't fit in the culture at VMware, and there-- >> And we've said no to a number of potential acquisitions over cultural issues as well, if they're just not going to fit. And hey, we're not going to be perfect, but the fact that we can bring these companies in, accelerate their vision, give 'em a culture that they're excited about. You know, we have maybe 90-ish% success rate. The industry average is below 50% >> Yeah, fantastic track record. I mean-- >> And that just gives us the ability to do organic and inorganic innovation, which to me is like, a potent recipe. >> And you got the radio conference coming up. What will your talk, theCUBE will be there. Pat, you've created great shareholder value. You turned those headwinds into tailwinds, and we were watchin' the whole time. It's been great to watch. And what's next? You have your VMware tattoo still on from VMworld? (laughter) Like you have a jail tattoo? >> No, I'll tell you >> Cute tattoo. >> a little inside, I'll tell you a little inside story. My wife, you know, after the VMworld keynote with the tattoo on, we were leavin' on vacation two weeks later. And all she said to me after the keynote was what's that tattoo thing, it better be gone by the time we leave for vacation. (laughter) It's like, there was no, honey, that was a great keynote today, it's like, that better be gone! (laughs) >> Nothin's better than watchin' that video and that CUBE sticker we had on your hand. Pat, great to see you, as always. Great commentary, great analysis. Congratulations on all the success with VMware. Again, the transformation's just getting started. We're seeing a lot more good things for you guys as well. >> Yeah, and you know, this has been a great week in some ways. I sort of joked this morning on-stage that, it almost felt like VMworld. We talked about VMware technologies and that Dell partnership accelerating so well. >> It's not AMCWorld, it's DellWorld now, it's a whole new vibe. >> (laughs) And you know, with that, you know, I just really believe in the superpowers that I talk about, we're just getting started. So we're going to be doing this a long time together. >> What's on your plate in front of you now? You got VMworld coming up in a few months. Priorities, objectives, what's on your plate? >> Well, I have to leave some of the secrets for what we're cookin' up for VMworld this year. But some of these steps clearly, in the developer container space, super important for us to really make some progress there. Obviously, we'll have some incremental cloud announcements as well. >> ContainerWare rhymes with VMware. (laughs) >> Yes, that's very good! We have an advertisement on that coming out, so a new ad. But it really is, I think, that topic area's one that, how can we really solve that for customers that really can deploy at scale containerized environments for an enterprise workload. So, excited about that area. And you know, maybe just a few deliverables from what we announced this week. >> Alright, take your CEO of VMware hat off, put your CUBE analyst hat on. What's the most important story here at Dell Technologies World, if you were a commentator? You can't say VMware 'cause that's biased, but you got to be objective. You can say VMware if an objective. What's the most important storyline here as a backdrop for Dell Technology Worlds, what's the real net net to customers? >> Well you know, I think, and I'll say, as exciting as the Microsoft announcements were, I think the most important thing was VMware Cloud on Dell EMC, on-prem. Because to me, you know, the fact, I go to CIOs, and I've done this probably five times since the keynote finished on Monday. And I say, how many of you have fully updated your hardware, your firmware, your operating systems, your networking stack, your compute stack, your management on the latest releases, all of them patched, upgraded appropriately for your environment? >> And they say, their eyes roll. (laughs) >> And the answer is none. Not some, none. I have customers that are askin' me to extend support for vSphere 4.5. It's like, what, that's been EOL'ed for a year and a half, what are you talking about, right?! But the reality is that most people go to the cloud, public cloud, not because it's more cost-effective or because it's better, it's because it's easier. So what we've really said is we can make easy in the private cloud and truly deliver that hybrid cloud experience. And I think the customers really experience the TCO benefits, the acceleration, the reductions in their operational environments, the personnel associated with it, the security benefits of being always patched, upgraded the most release. You know, now you're talkin' about attacking that other $1 trillion of operational costs that they're bearing in the personnel and so on. To me, that is like, so powerful if we really get that engine going. >> And the simplicity that comes out of that, is just-- >> You know, and again, the demo that we showed. That was the VMware Cloud on AWS being able to demonstrate, now, a complete picture into the on-premise environment. That's powerful. >> Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware. I know he's got to go. Thanks for your generous time, I know you're really busy. Again, Pat Gelsinger. >> Love you guys, thank you. >> Thanks, Pat. >> Love you too. Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware, creating a lot of shareholder values, got a lot of tailwinds at their back. VMworld's coming up, theCUBE, of course, will be there with two sets. As usual, theCUBE cannons, two sets here, firing cannonballs of content here at Dell Technology World. I'm Jeff Furrier with Dave Vellante, stay with us for more after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering artists. A conference twenty nineteen brought to you by for scout. >> Hey, Welcome back, everybody. Jefe Rick here with the Cube were in the force caboose that Arcee and Mosconi center forty thousand people walking around talking about security is by far the biggest security of it in the world. We're excited to be here. And welcome back a Cube. Alumni has been playing in the security space for a very long time. He's Bradman bury the GDP from Booz Allen >> Hamilton. Brad, great to see you. >> Hey, thanks for having me here today. Absolutely. Yeah. I've, uh I've already walked about seven miles today, and, uh, just glad to be here to have >> a conversation. Yeah, the fit bitten. The walking trackers love this place, right? You feel your circles in a very short period of time. >> I feel very fit fit after today. So thank >> you. But it's pretty interesting rights, >> and you're in it. You're in a position where you're >> advising companies, both government and and commercial companies, you know, to come into an environment like this and just be overwhelmed by so many options. Right? And you can't buy everything here, and you shouldn't buy everything here. So how do you help? How do you hope your client's kind of navigate this crazy landscape. >> It's interesting, so you mentioned forty thousand people. Aziz, you see on the show, should share room floor behind us, Thousands of product companies, and, frankly, our clients are confused. Um, you know, there's a lot of tools, lot technologies. There's no silver bullet, and our clients are asking a couple of fundamental problem. A couple of fundamental questions. One. How effective in mine and then once them effective, you know, how can I be more efficient with my cyber pretty spent? >> So it's funny, effective. So how are they measuring effective, Right? Because that's a that's a kind of a changing, amorphous thing to target as well. >> That's I mean, that's that's That's the that's the key question in cybersecurity is how effective my, you know, there's lots of tools and technologies. We do a lot of instant response, but commercially and federally and in general, when looking at past reaches, its not a problem. In most cases, everyone has the best of the best and tools and technologies. But either they're drowning in data on DH or the tools aren't configured properly, so you know we're spending a lot of time helping our client's baseline their current environment. Help them look at their tool configurations, help them look at their screw. The operation center helping them figure out Can they detect the most recent threats? And how quickly can we respond? >> Right? And then how did they prioritize? That's the thing that always amazes me, because then you can't do everything right. And and it's fascinating with, you know, the recent elections and, you know, kind of a state funded threats. Is that what the bad guys are going on going after? Excuse me? Isn't necessarily your personal identifying information or your bank account, but all kinds of things that you may not have thought were that valuable yesterday, >> right? I mean, you know, it's funny. We talk a lot about these black swan events, and so you look at not Petra and you know what? Not Pecchia. There was some companies that were really hit in a very significant way, and, you know, everyone, everyone is surprised, right and way. See it time after time, folks caught off guard by, you know, these unanticipated attack vectors. It's a big problem. But, you know, I think you know, our clients are getting better. They're starting to be more proactive. There start. They're starting to become more integrated communities where they're taking intelligence and using that to better tune and Taylor there screw the operation programs. And, you know, they're starting to also used take the tools and technologies in their environment, better tie them and integrate them with their operational processes and getting better. >> Right. So another big change in the landscape. You said you've been coming here for years. Society, right? And yeah. And it's just called Industrial. I owe to your Jean. Call it. Yeah. And other things. A lot more devices should or should not be connected. Well, are going to be connected. They were necessarily designed to be connected. And you also work on the military side as well. Right? And these have significant implications. These things do things, whether it's a turbine, whether it's something in the hospital, this monitoring that hard or whether it's, you know, something in a military scenarios. So >> how are you seeing >> the adoption of that? Obviously the benefits far out way you know, the potential downfalls. But you gotta protect for the downfall, >> you know? Yo, Tio, we've u o T is one of the most pressing cyber security challenges that our client's case today. And it's funny. When we first started engaging in the OT space, there was a big vocabulary mismatch. You had thesis, Oh, organizations that we're talking threat actors and attack vectors, and then you had head of manufacturing that we're talking up time, availability and reliability and they were talking past each other. I think now we're at an attorney point where both communities air coming together to recognize that this is a really an imminent threat to the survival of their organization and that they've got to protect they're ot environment. They're starting by making sure that they have segmentation in place. But that's not enough. And you know, it's interesting when we look into a lot of the OT environments, you know, I call it the Smithsonian of it. And so, you know, I was looking at one of our client environments and, you know, they had, Ah, lot of Windows and T devices like that's great. I'm a Windows NT expert. I was using that between nineteen ninety four in nineteen ninety six, and you know, I mean, it's everybody's favorite vulnerability. Right on Rodeo. I'm your guy. So, you know, one of the challenges that we're facing is how do you go into these legacy environments that have very mission critical operations and, you know, integrates cyber security to protect and ensure their mission. And so we're working with companies like for Scott, you know, that provide Asian agent lis capabilities, that that allow us to better no one understand what's in the environment and then be able to apply policies to be able to better protect and defend them. But certainly it's a major issue that everyone's facing. We spent a lot of time talking about issues in manufacturing, but but think about the utilities. Think about the power grid. Think about building control systems. H back. You know, I was talking to a client that has a very critical mission, and I asked them all like, what's your biggest challenge? You face today? And I was thinking for something. I was thinking they were going to be talking about their mission control system. Or, you know, some of some of the rial, you know, critical critical assets they have. But what he said, My biggest challenge is my, my age back, and I'm like, really, He's like my age back goes down, My operation's gonna be disrupted. I'm going out to Coop halfway across the country, and that could result in loss of life. It's a big issue. >> Yeah, it's wild. Triggered all kinds. I think Mike earlier today said that a lot of a lot of the devices you don't even know you're running in tea. Yeah, it's like a little tiny version of Inti that's running underneath this operating system that's running this device. You don't even know it. And it's funny. You talked about the HBC. There was a keynote earlier today where they talk about, you know, if a data center HBC goes down first. I think she said, sixty seconds stuff starts turning off, right? So, you know, depending on what that thing is powering, that's a pretty significant data point. >> Yeah, you know, I think where we are in the journey and the OT is, you know, we started by creating the burning platform, making sure that there was awareness around hate. There is a problem. There is a threat. I think we've moved beyond that. WeII then moved into, you know, segmenting the BOT environment, A lot of the major nation state attacks that we've seen started in the enterprise and move laterally into the OT environment. So we're starting to get better segmentation in place. Now we're getting to a point where we're moving into, you know, the shop floors, the manufacturing facilities, the utilities, and we're starting Teo understand what's on the network right in the world This has probably been struggling with for years and have started to overcome. But in the OT environment, it's still a problem. So understanding what's connected to the network and then building strategy for how we can really protecting defendant. And the difference is it's not just about protecting and defending, but it's insuring continuity of mission. It's about being resilient, >> right and being able to find if there's a problem down the problem. I mean, we're almost numb. Tow the data breach is right there in the paper every day. I mean, I think Michael is really the last big when everyone had a connection fit down. Okay, it's another another data breach. So it's a big It's a big issue. That's right. So >> one of the things you talked about last time we had >> John was continuous diagnostic and mitigation. I think it's a really interesting take that pretty clear in the wording that it's not. It's not by something, put it in and go on vacation. It was a constant, an ongoing process, and I have to really be committed to >> Yeah, you know, I think that, you know, our clients, the federally and commercially are moving beyond compliance. And if you rewind the clock many years ago, everyone was looking at these compliance scores and saying Good to go. And in reality, if you're if you're compliant, you're really looking in the rear view mirror. And it's really about, you know, putting in programs that's continually assessing risk, continuing to take a continues to look at your your environment so that you can better understand what are the risks, one of the threats and that you can prioritize activity in action. And I think the federal government is leading the way with some major programs. I got a VHS continuous diagnostic in mitigation where they're really looking Teo up armor dot gov and, you know, really take a more proactive approach. Teo, you know, securing critical infrastructure, right? Just >> curious because you you kind >> of split the fence between the federal clients and the commercial clients. Everybody's, you know, kind of points of view in packs away they see the world. >> What if you could share? >> Kind of, maybe what's more of a federal kind of centric view that wasn't necessarily shared on the commercial side of they prioritize. And what's kind of the one of the commercial side that the feds are missing? I assume you want to get him both kind of thinking about the same thing, but there's got to be a different set of priorities. >> Yeah, you know, I think after some of the major commercial breaches, Way saw the commercial entities go through a real focused effort. Teo, take the tools that they have in the infrastructure to make sure that they're better integrated. Because, you know, in this mass product landscape, there's lots of seems that the adversaries livin and then better tie the tooling in the infrastructure with security operations and on the security operation side, take more of an intelligence driven approach, meaning that you're looking at what's going on out in the wild, taking that information be able to enrich it and using that to be more proactive instead of waiting for an event to pop up on the screen hunt for adversaries in your network. Right now, we're seeing the commercial market really refining that approach. And now we're seeing our government clients start to adopt an embrace commercial. Best practices. >> Write some curious. I love that line. Adversaries live in the scene. Right? We're going to an all hybrid world, right? Public cloud is kicking tail. People have stuff in public, cloud their stuff in their own cloud. They have, you know, it's very kind of hybrid ecosystems that sounds like it's making a whole lot of scenes. >> Yeah, you know, it. You know, just went Just when we think we're getting getting there, you know, we're getting the enterprise under control. We've got asset management in place, You know. We're modernizing security operations. We're being Mohr Hunt driven. More proactive now the attacks services expanding. You know, earlier we talked about the OT environment that's introducing a much broader and new attack service. But now we're talking about cloud and it's not just a single cloud. There's multiple cloud providers, right? And now we're not. Now we're talking about software is a service and multiple software's of service providers. So you know, it's not just what's in your environment now. It's your extended enterprise that includes clouds. So far is the service. Excuse me, ot Io ti and the problem's getting much more complex. And so it's going to keep us busy for the next couple of years. I think job security's okay, I think where I think we're gonna be busy, all >> right, before I let you go, just kind of top trends that you're thinking about what you guys are looking at a za company as we had in twenty >> nineteen, you know, a couple of things. You know, Who's Alan being being deeply rooted in defense and intelligence were working, Teo, unlocking our tradecraft that we've gained through years of dealing with the adversary and working to figure out howto better apply that to cyber defense. Things like advanced threat hunting things like adversary red teaming things like being able to do base lining to assess the effectiveness of an organisation. And then last but not least, a i a. I is a big trend in the industry. It's probably become one of the most overused but buzzwords. But we're looking at specific use cases around artificial intelligence. How do you, you know better Accelerate. Tier one tier, two events triaging in a sock. How do you better detect, you know, adversary movement to enhance detection in your enterprise and, you know, eyes, you know, very, you know, a major major term that's being thrown out at this conference. But we're really looking at how to operationalize that over the next three to five years, >> right? Right. And the bad guys have it too, right? And never forget tomorrow's Law. One of my favorite, not quoted enough laws, right, tend to overestimate in the short term and underestimate in the long term, maybe today's buzzword. But three to five years A I's gonna be everywhere. Absolutely. Alright. Well, Brad, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day is done by. Good >> to see you again. All right, >> all right. He's Brad. I'm Jeff. You're watching. The Cube were in Arcee conference in downtown San Francisco. Thanks >> for watching. We'LL see you next time.

(electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas it's theCUBE! Covering NetApp Insight 2018. Brought to you by NetApp. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of NetApp Insight 2018, Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman and guess who's here now, Dave Hitz, EVP and founder of NetApp, Dave, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you and glad to be here. >> This is a big event, we were in the keynote this morning when we were walking out, standing room only really strong messages delivered by George Kurian, who stopped by for the first time couple hours ago. Great customer story, the futurist was very interesting perspective, 26 years ago, can you envision? >> You know the futurist? >> Where you are? >> Never mind that, I have a very different perspective than him, I think we are entering the golden decade of artificial intelligence. It's smart enough to be super, super cool and it hasn't figured out how to kill us yet, decade. (laughing) >> Lisa: That's good. >> Enjoy your last 10 years. >> Oh no, that's it? >> I, no, no, you asked, you asked that I envision this 26 years ago, oh my god, no, I mean, you know, we were a little start-up and we had these spread sheets that said we would grow to, you know it basically that, what the VC's told us if we could get to 100 million in revenue we can go public, so, naturally our spread sheets showed 200 million (laughs) in revenue, you know or five, six, some where in there and is like, we're so far beyond anything I imagined when we started, and we were doing technical nerdy products for little engineers and little work groups, you know and the idea that that part of the storage market would merge against the heavy duty, high-end enterprise storage market doing databases, and then that would end up colliding with the cloud market and helping, like no we didn't even imagine this stuff that's happening now, I mean it's so far beyond. >> Enabling DreamWorks to make movies, I mean-- >> I love that, you know they do showings, they do previews for their vendors and so I've gotten to take my 11-year-old daughter, she's 11 now, but to see, you know early viewing of some of these movies it's, it's just fun. >> So, Dave, it's always interesting in the industry a lot of time you say like, okay, this architecture is long in the tooth, there's a new generation do things better and everything like that. ONTAP, been around for a long time now.. >> You know, so let me-- >> Seems like it's been reinvigorated with the cloud and everything like that, you know. >> Let me make a comment about that. >> Yeah. >> Cause people do this, oh, ONTAP is so old, isn't that the old generation? So lets talk about old. Mainframes are old, and AS400s are old, and Unix is old, and then there's Windows which is kind of younger, and ONTAP's younger than that, and then there's Windows NT, which was a rewrite of Windows and Clustered ONTAP is younger than that, so like stop with the old, you know I mean iOS is after that, so okay fine we're older than iOS, but it's not an ancient, and then we've revamped it again to go run in the cloud, I mean we first started doing ONTAP running in Azure, sorry I mean Amazon initially, we started that work in 2013 and shipped it in 2014, so like that was yet another refresh so. >> Well, but you bring a point, you've, it is adjusted and moved, it wasn't something that's static. Can you speak a little bit, that cloud, the you know, the rewrite and focus around the cloud and what, that mean internally, I know you've been reinvigorated. >> Ha! >> With everything that's happened for the last few years. >> You know, the cloud everybody's doing it now and everybody's trying to be cloud relevant, we were really struggling early on I will say you know 2013, 2014 we were really trying to get our heads around what to do and a lot of people were stepping back like, no, no, no, let's see if we can slow it down, and, I mean not just outside of NetApp but NetApp as well, and the guy that was the CEO of the time Tom Georgens, and George Kurian was part of the staff then. We, I'm proud of what we did was we said, you know let's really lean in, its either going to happen or it's not going to happen, probably not, based on what we do, and if it does happen we'll be way better off leaning into it early, learning how to make this stuff work, and that's, you know we shipped ONTAP in the cloud in 2014, and it sucked, I mean, and no one body else had anything like it, it was awesome, right, whenever you look at old tech die, the first iPhone sucked too, but it was both great, but it needed so much more work, like the very first rev I remember a story, Joe CaraDonna as a programmer he's like, we tried to get our own IT organization to use it and they told us the security wasn't good enough, so we had to fix the security, like, I mean we've been through so much stuff that's almost five years ago. We've been working on it, and so you do all of this work and then Cloud Volumes is a complete, have you guys had Anthony on? >> Both: Yes. >> Couple hours ago. >> I love how Anthony thinks, so, he's a cloudy guy right from the foundation, he joins the executive staff, whole new perspective on stuff, so Cloud ONTAP, like ONTAP's my baby and we put it in the cloud. I'm proud of that, like you have our forward leaning cloud and Anthony's like, you know, just so you know, that's not nearly good enough, like, that is a very old school infrastructural thing, probably storage infrastructural people will like that they can have their same old OS running in the cloud, but it's not what cloudy people want, cloudy people don't want to run a storage OS in the cloud, cloudy people just want to say, I'd like a volume, please. Here's your volume, Thank you, and by the way, it should be a RESTful API, like God, ONTAP was none of those things and so if you look at the work we're doing now is like, okay, here's a RESTful API, here's the JSON schema, send it to the Azure Resource Manager Like that's cloudy and so, it was because, you know we did a good job engineering getting it in but we didn't, we didn't have that like the, what does cloud smell like? If you know what I mean, like, the right whiff of cloud. Anyway, so Anthony really brought that and I, and I just feel really good about where we are at now, because, it's like cloud developers, develop this stuff for other cloud developers, it feels like that. >> Well in the last five years it sounds like tremendous amounts of transformation, reinvigoration, NetApp has some bold marketing messaging. We are the data authority, we help customers become data driven, you talk about these three business imperatives, customers have lots of choices that, you know public cloud, private cloud, hybrid, George talked about this morning in his keynote that hybrid and multi-cloud is now de facto. >> You know, someone asked me, I was giving a talk and they asked me, okay so much cloud, how long do you think till NetApp's not shipping hardware? And I was like, no, no, like we don't see that going away anytime soon, if anything we think our success in the cloud, 'cause customers want to do that, will help us gain share on-prem because customers also want to do that, right? George's picture shows, yes there is traditional on-prem IT, enterprise IT, there's private clouds people, HCI, convergence CI, and then there's public cloud. To me the interesting question, is why do people do those different things, the number one driver for public cloud is innovation, like, if you just, like all the catchwords you can think of, if you want to start up a DevOps team to-go program, I would like a new mobile phone app and I want it to take a picture of the person's face, oh look it's a woman, she looks happy, and then you want it to listen to her, to the voice, and like transcribe the voice and then do a sentiment analysis on the words, oh, she looked happy but it's snarky, and then you want to feed that into neural net deep learning engine, and say, what should we try to sell her, like, I guaranteed you, the team working on the public cloud will beat the on-prem team hands down every time. Right, I mean that's, so when you look at people and they go, we want all in on the cloud, or there's got to be 100% cloud. My question is what, what's your, like, don't start with that, what's your problem? If it's derive innovation, for the private cloud, typically that's just all about speed. They're so uniform regular, they're all the same you have extra capacity, you know you got empty rack space, for where the next one goes, someone says, I need some storage, and you say, hey, it's got a self service offer defined API, like, just do it yourself, and then in the enterprise space, the enterprise IT, Unix, Windows, clients, server, like that zone, probably the bulk of your investment, right? That's where you been spending the money historically. Probably still the bulk of most people's investment, but they want to modernize it, they don't want to get rid of it, they don't want to turn it off, it's working, but they'd like it to work better, so flash enable it, just get the performance issues out of the way. By the way, shrinks your footprint in the data center, frees up space, and connected to the cloud. Like not moving it, but just back it up or do DR, or like something cloudy and so to me I look at those three goals are tightly linked to the three styles of infrastructure. Notice, I haven't talked about products yet? The conversations I like to have with customers these days, help me understand what your business challenges are, your trying to move faster, be more innovative, modernize the stuff you have. Okay, like what ratio, now lets talk about how we could do those things together with the Data Fabric and let you build the Data Fabric you need, I mean, our Data Fabric strategy is not to tell customers what to do, it's to help them build the Data Fabric they need for their needs based on, oh, we're all about innovation, all on the cloud, like okay fine. We can do that like, but let's talk about that or is it. Now I'm stuttering. >> You bring up a great point there, Dave. >> I'm excited about this stuff. >> It's really exciting 'cause you know I think back, you know, just a couple of years ago, if you go to the enterprise, oftentimes storage was the boat anchor to prevent me from moving forward. Now we know that data, is absolutely going to be one of the drivers going forward, how do we help those people make that transition? How do you see NetApp driving that transition? So boating, that's an interesting word because I think if you look at cloud compute, it's very easy to move compute into the cloud, right. >> Stu: Yes. >> The thing about compute is it just happens and then its done, like you turn it on, you turn if off. You spin up the VM, you spin down the VM, it's easy. The reason data is a boat anchor is not because its a boat anchor, because data is the hard part, like you fired up the compute to the cloud but usually you're computing some data, well, how did you get the data to the place where the compute is? And then when you're finished a lot of times you created some data, well, how do you keep track of the data you created in the cloud, and is it legal for it to stay in the cloud, and now you want to put the data in a different cloud or put the data in your own data center and like, who's watching all that data? It's not a boat anchor because data sucks, it's a boat anchor actually because its the important thing you want to keep forever, right? I mean, maybe you do or maybe you want to delete it and know for sure it's gone. Like, those, compute doesn't have any of those issues. So, what's my point, whatever is hard, like if this was easy anybody can do it, right? Whatever is hard, you go hire lots and lots of smart people to work on hard problems and then customers are like, whoa, you're solving hard problems, I guess I will pay you after all. Isn't that what business is? >> So the majority of your conversations start with helping customers identify what they've got, where best to spread out their investments, it's not product based its about business outcomes. I'd love to get kind of in the last few minutes here, your perspective on NetApp's own IT and digital, and cultural transformation, how does that help your legacy long time enterprise customers feel an even stronger trust with NetApp? >> I think prior to our cloud work customers for the most part, customers and potential customers, they knew us, you know, it was interesting even as we thought about marketing the new work that we are doing, one of the questions was like, how much should be about the cloud, how much should be about the old stuff, and we've really leaned in almost 100% on telling people our new cloud stories, they're both public and private. And our VP of marketing I think she had a really, Jean English, she had a really good perspective. She basically said look, we've been telling the on-prem storage iron story for 26 years and if there's a customer who's out there waiting to decide who to use I don't think telling them that story again and year 27, is going to be the thing that makes the difference, like, they've decided they're happy with their Hitatchi or they're EM's, whatever it is, but, but they don't know that NetApp can help them in this brave new world. Right, they have no clue that ONTAP is also running on Amazon, I mean, It's like, seriously, I can run ONTAP on Amazon? Yeah like fire it up, it's five bucks an hour, or whatever the number is, it's like that's crazy, you know and so, so and then people go, well, we've had so many conversations where they're trying to get a cloud strategy together, and we talk about all these things and data movement and data management and cloud, and like just all of these tools and they're very excited about where they're trying to go and they said, you know, by the way, I do also have a on-prem storage need. Could you do me a quote for like what I need this week and meanwhile let's do some planning about what I need next year, right, you've got both of them working together, and I think it's that combo that's important. >> Last question, how do you, if only you had more energy and excitement like legitimately about this, but how do you keep some of the NetApp folks that have been here for a long time? How have you helped reinvigorate them to, to really be able to digest the massive impact that you guys are being able to make across industries? >> One of the things I think helps, 'cause there is a... Let me back up a step, you know, Steve Jobs, is such an awesome guy and also in his life he made so many mistakes, and one of the things he did when, when Apple was almost entirely floated on their Apple III business and, was that Apple III, Apple II? And he was doing the Mac, and basically his message to everybody else was, if you're not working on the Mac, you suck, except, by the way, that's the product that's floating the entire business and generating all the products, and I really was conscious of, like that's the wrong way to do it. And when I look in particular of what we're doing we've got new operating systems like E-Series and like SolidFire, the HCI is a whole new thing, and yet ONTAP is still shot through our entire product line. I mean, the Cloud Volumes' the cool, hottest new thing. It's ONTAP under the covers, right, and you look at the HCI it's got the SolidFire block storage built in there as a very scalable model, oh but if you'd like files guess what? We run ONTAP in a VM, it's HCI it runs VM, and so actually if you look at what's going on in there the work that we've done going way back, and yes it's evolved, it's changed, but that same work is actually shot through as technology, no longer the front piece but it's shot through all of it as technology, so it is kind of a unifying characteristic. If you talk about that, I think it helps people get more comfortable both internally but, we have the same, you know, you asked how do you get employees comfortable, a lot of customers have the same problem, you know-- >> Lisa: Right. >> They've spent a lot of investment and learning ONTAP's foibles over the year and Cloud Volume's hides all of that. So, gee, maybe I don't like this, you know what if you need all those features Cloud ONTAP, you can run ONTAP, like some people do want to do that, so, I just feel like the fact that the pieces all fit together, work together, actually gets people comfortable with it. >> Excellent, well Dave thanks so much for stopping by. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for sharing your energy, and your excitement, your passion and all this wisdom and looking at where you guys are 26 years later, we look forward to year 27. >> Great, thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman, we're at NetApp Insight 2018 in Vegas. Stick around Stu and I will be right back with our next guest. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Washington D.C., it's theCube, covering .Next conference. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> We're back, this is Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman, and this the wrap of .Next, Nutanix's customer event, #NEXTConf and this is theCube, the leader in the live tech coverage for enterprise technology. Stu, second day. I got to say, Nutanix has always done a good job, innovative venues, they do funky, fun stuff with marketing, we haven't seen the end of it. We have another keynote today, there's a keynote tomorrow morning, big names, Bill McDermott's here, we just saw Peter MacKay, Chad Sakac is here. Who am I missing? >> Stu: Diane Greene >> Diane Gree was up yesterday. >> Y'know, thought leaders, had the CEO of NASDAQ on this morning Dave, y'know really good customers, thought leaders, Nutanix always makes me think a little bit, which I really enjoy. My fourth one of these Dave, usually by the fourth show I've gotten to, it's like I've seen it. Have we made progress, where are we going? >> I thought Sunil Podi's comment was really interesting, he said, "Look, we saw the trends, "we knew that hardware was going down." I mean, they're essentially admitting that they were a hardware oriented company, infrastructure company, we saw what was happening to infrastructure and hyper-converge, and we could just packed it up then, sold the company for a bunch of money, there were rumors floating around, you know they were pre-IPO, they easily could have sold this thing for a billion plus, all could have cashed out and made a buncha dough, and they said, "Y'know what, we're going to do something "different, we're going to go for it." You got to love the ambition, and so many companies today just can't weather that independent storm. I mean, you've seen it over and over and over again. The last billion dollar storage company that remained independent was NetApp, that was 14 years ago, now Nutanix isn't a storage company, but look around here, look at the analysts, a buncha storage guys that have grown up, and it's to me, Stu, it's a representation of what's happening in the marketplace. Storage as we know it is going away, and it always has transformed, y'know it used to be spinning disc drives, then it was subsystems, then it was the SAN, now it's evolving, these guys call it invisible infrastructure, call it whatever you want, but it's moving toward infrastructure as code, which is just a stepping stone to cloud. So your thoughts on the event, the ecosystem, and their position in the marketplace. >> Right, they reach a certain point, they've gone public, can they keep innovating? Look at a number of announcements there, we spent a lot of time talking about the new CloudZi service out there. >> Si? >> Zi. >> Zi, zi, sorry, you got it. (chuckles) >> Pronunciation of some of these, "it's Nutanix, right?" >> Nutonix, Nutanicks, (chuckles) >> They made jokes about the company last year, but this year, that's product, we're talking vision. The ink is still drying on the relationship with Google, doesn't mean they haven't been working for a while, but where this deal goes, interesting to see where it is six months from now, a year from now, because also Google, small player, I mean it wasn't to be honest, I was at the Red Hat Summit and they had a video of Andy Jassy saying, "We've extending AWS with OpenShift." And you're like wow. Red Hat has a position in a lot of clouds, but for Andy Jassy to make an appearance, Amazon, the behemoth in the cloud, that's good. Look, getting Diane Greene here, I said number one, it gives Nutanix credibility, number two it really pokes at VMware a little bit, she's like, "Oh, I did this before." And everybody's like, "Well, she's here now at Nutanix." Nutanix wants to be, that they've compared themselves to both Amazon, I think we hear it was Sunil or Dheeraj in an analyst session said they "want to be like the A Block." Not the V Block that EMC did, but the Amazon Block for the enterprise, or the next VMware, they talked about the new operating system. It's funny, in a lot of my circles, we've been trying to kill the operating system for a while, I need just enough operating system, I want to serverless and containerize all of these things because we need to modernize, and the old general-purpose processor and general-purpose operating system has come and gone, it's seen its day, but Nutanix has a play there. When I look at some of the things going on, we're talking about microsegmentation Dave, we're talking about multi-cloud and some interesting pieces. I like the ecosystem, I like that balance of how do you keep growing and expand where they can go into, leading the customers, but they're delivering today, they've got real products, they've got real growth, sure they have some challenges as to that competitive back and forth, but you asked Chad Sakac if this reminded him of Dell EMC, and kind of that partnership that they had for years, reminded me a little bit of kind of EMC and VMware too, once EMC bought VMware, VMware, the relationship they had, HP, and IBM, and other companies that they needed to treat as good or better than EMC. They're some of those tough relationships, and Dell with Nutanix, their partner, not only do they do Dell XC, but now they're doing like Pivotal on top of it, they can do Hyper-V deployments, Lenovo's another partner, Nutanix is broadening their approach, there's a lot of options out there and a lot of things to dig into, interesting, they keep growing their customers, keep delighting their customers, it reminds me of other shows we go to, Dave, like Amazon re:Invent, customers are super excited, You tell me about the Splunk conference and the ServiceNow conference where those customers are in there, they're excited, and Nutanix is another one of those, that every year you come, there's good solid content, there's a customer base that is growing and exciting and sharing, and that's a fun one to be part of. >> So, I want to ask you about VMware, it's kind of a good reference model. EMC paid out, I don't know, $630 million for VMware, which was the greatest acquisition in enterprise IT history, no question about it in terms of return. A couple questions for you, you were there at the time, you signed the original NDA between EMC and VMware, kind of sniffed em out. Would VMware's ascendancy been as fast and as successful, or even more successful, without EMC? Would VMware have got there on its own? >> I don't think so Dave, because my information that I had, and some of it's piecing together after the fact is VMware was really looking for that company to help them get to the next state. The fundraising was a little bit different back in 2003 than it was later, but rumors were Semantic was going to buy them. Everybody I talked to, you'd know better than me Dave, if Semantic had bought them, they would have integrated into all their pieces, they would have squashed it, the original talent probably would have fled much sooner. EMC didn't really know what they had, I had worked on some of the due diligence for some of the product integration, which took years and years to deliver, and it was mostly we're going to buy them. Diane had a bit of a tense relationship with Joe Tucci kind of from day one, and it was like okay, you're out there in Palo Alto, we're on the other coast, you go and do your thing, and you grow, and by the time EMC had gotten into VMware a little bit more, they were much bigger. So I think as you said, they're one of the great success stories, EMC did best in a lot of its acquisitions where it either let it ran a division and go, or let it kind of sit on its own and just funded it more, so I think that was a-- >> Well, and the story was always that Diane was pissed because she sold out at such a low price, but that's sort of ancient history. The reason I brought that up is I want to try to draw the parallel with Nutanix today, and come back to what you were saying about the A Block. When you look at Amazon, we agree, they have a lead, whether that lead is five years, seven years, four years, probably more like five to seven, but whatever, whatever it is, it's a lead, it's substantive. Beyond the infrastructure, the storage and the compute, they're building out just all kinds of services, I mean just look at their website, whether it's messaging, on and on and on, there's database, there's AI, there's their version of VDI, there's all this big data stuff, with things like Kinesis, and on and on and on, so many services that are much, much larger than the entire Nutanix ecosystem. So the reason for all this background is does Nutanix need a bigger, can Nutanix become it's ambition, which is essentially to be the next VMware, without some kind of white knight? >> So my answer, Dave, is if you look at Nutanix's ambition, one of the challenges for every infrastructure company today, if you think okay, we've talked about True Private Cloud, Dave, what services can I run on that? How can I leverage that? Look at Amazon, y'know a thousand new services coming every year, look at Google, they've got TensorFlow, really cool stuff, they've got those brilliant people coming up with the next stuff, how do I get that in my environment? Well, Nutanix's answer, coming at the show was we're going to partner with Google, we're going to have that partnership, you're going to be able to plug in, and you want to do your analytics and everything, use GCP, they're great at that, we're not, we know that you need to be able to leverage Google services to do that. The Red Hat announcement that I mentioned before, another way how I can take OpenShift and bridge from my data center and my environment and get access to those services. The promise of VMware on Amazon, yeah we're going to have a similar stack that I can go there, but I want to be able to access those VMware servers. Now, could it suck them eventually into all of Amazon and leave VMware behind? Absolutely, it's tough to partner with Amazon. So, the thing I've been looking at at almost every show this year is how are you tying into and working with those public clouds, we talked about it at VMON, Dave, they have Microsoft up on stage, they have partnerships with the public cloud-- >> David: HPE was up there. >> But the public cloud players, if you're not allowing your customers and the infrastructure that you're building to find ways to leverage and access those public cloud services, which not only are they spending $10 billion a year for each one of the big guys on infrastructure to get all around the globe, but it's all of those new services ahead, moving up the stack. To stitch together that in your own environment is going to be really challenging, how many different software pieces, how do I license it? How do I get it on, as opposed to oh, I'm in the public cloud, it's a checkbox, okay I want to access that, and I consume it as I need it, that consumption model needs to change, so I think Nutanix understands that's directionally where they want to go, I look at the Calm software that they launched and say hey, you want to use TensorFlow? Oh, it's just a choice here, absolutely, go. Where is it and how do I use it? Well, some of these details need to be worked out, as Detu said, "it's not like it's one click for every application, any cloud, anywhere." But that's directionally where they're going to make it easy, so all that cool analytic stuff that we cover a lot on theCube, a lot of that is now happening in the cloud, and I should be able to access it whether I'm in my private cloud or public cloud, and it's just going to be consumption model, whether I have certain characteristics that make it that I'm going to want to have that infrastructure for whether that's governance or locality, we talked to Scholastic yesterday, and they said, "Well when you've got manufacturing "in books, I need things close "to where they're coming off the production line, "otherwise there's things that I'm doing "in the public cloud." So that's there we see, when I talk to companies like I do here, at the Vienna show last year, when I talk to Christian Reilly with Citrix, who had been at Bechtel for many years, there's reasons why things need to live close to what's happening, y'know we've talked a lot about Edge, and therefore public cloud doesn't win it all, I know we had one guest on this week that said, "Right, depending on what industry you're is, "is it a 30/70 mix or a 70/30 mix?" There's a lot of nuance to sort this out, and this is long game, Dave, there's this change of the way we do things is a journey, and Nutanix has positioned themselves to continue to grow, continue to expand, some good ambition to expand on, like the five vectors of support that they have, so I've liked what I've heard this week. >> So in thinking about what we're talking about VMware, the imperative for virtualization was so high in the early 2000's because we were coming out of the dot com bust, IT was out of favor, VMware was really the only game in town, there really wasn't a strong alternative, had by far the best product, Microsoft Hyper-V was sort of in-concept, and KVM and others were just really not there, so there really was no choice, it appealed to 100% of the IT shops, I mean essentially. So I wonder though, today, is the imperative for multi-cloud the same? The fundamental is yes, everybody has multiple clouds. But this industry has lived in stovepipes forever, and has figured out how to manage stovepipes, it manages them by fencing things off. So I wonder is the imperative as high, you could maybe make an argument that it's higher, but I'm still not quite getting it yet, as it was in the early 2000's, where the aspirin of virtualization to soothe the pain of do more with less was such an obvious and game changing paradigm shift. I don't see it as much here, I see people still trying to figure out okay, what is our cloud strategy? Number one, number two is the competition seems to be much more wide open, it's unclear at this time that any one company has a fast-track to multi-cloud. >> I think you've got some really good points there, Dave. A thing that I've pointed out a few times is that one of the things that bothered me from the early days with VMware is from an application standpoint, it tended to freeze my application. I didn't have a reason to kind of move forward and modernize my application. Back in 2002 it was like oh, I'm running Windows NT with a really old application, my operating system going to end of life, well maybe it's time to uplift. Oh wait, there's this great virtualization stuff, my hardware's going end of life too. No, shove it in a VM, let's keep it for another five years. Oh my god, that application sucked then, it's going to suck even more in five years, and workforce productivity was way down. So, the vision for Nutanix is they're going to be a platform that are going to be able to help you modernize your environment and how do we get beyond, is it virtualization, is it containerization, is it a lot of the cloud-native pieces, how does that fit in? Starting to hear a little bit more of it, a critique I'd have on HCI about two years ago was it was the same applications that were in my VMware SAN, not VSAN, but my just traditional storage area network was what was running on Nutanix. We're starting to see more interesting applications going on there, and look, Nutanix has a bullseye on them, there are all the HCI direct replacements, there is the threat of the cloud, and I haven't heard as many SAAS applications living on Nutanix as I do when we talk to all flash-array companies, Dave, every single on of them can roll out, here's all these SAAS deployments on our environment, just scalable environments that build that for the future. I haven't heard it as much from Nutanix. >> So VMware was aspirin , Nutanix originally started as aspirin, and now they're pivoting to vitamin. Who are they up against? Who do you like? Who are the horses on the track? Let's analyze the race and then wrap. >> Yeah, so when Nutanix got into this business, it was well, they're helping VMware environments, it was 100% VMware when they first started that relationship with VMware was really tough, they've lowered that too, they've now got what, 28% is running HV, they've got a little bit on Hyper-V, but they've still got about 60% of their customers are VMware. So VMware, y'know, huge challenge, VSAN has more customers than anyone in the hyper-convergent infrastructure space, easy, number of customers, but virtualization admin has taken that. Microsoft, huge potential threat, Azure Stack's coming this year, it's been coming, it's been coming, it's really close there, all the server guys are lining up. Microsoft's a huge player, Microsoft owns applications, they're pulling applications into their SAAS offerings, they're pulling applications into Azure, when they launch Azure Stack, even if the 1.0, if you looked at it on paper and say Nutanix is better, well, Microsoft's a huge threat to both VMware, which uses a lot of Microsoft apps, as well as Nutanix. So those are the two biggest threats, then of course, there's just the general trend of push to SAAS and push to public cloud where Nutanix is starting to play in the multi-cloud, as we talked about, and COM and the DR cloud services are good, but can Nutanix continue to stay ahead of their customers? They're ahead of the vast majority of enterprises, but can they convince them to come on board to them, rather than some of these big guys? Nutanix is a public company now, they're doing great, but yeah, it's a big TAM that they're going after, but that means they're going to have a tax from every side of the market. >> I see HCI as one where you got a leader, and that leader can make some good money. I don't see multi-cloud as a winner-take-all market because I think IBM's going to have its play in multi-cloud, HPE has its play in multi-cloud, Dell EMC is going to have its play in multi-cloud. You got guys coming out of different places like ServiceNow, who's got an IT operations management practice, builds business big, hundreds of millions of dollars of business there, coming at multi-cloud, so a lot of different competitors that are going to be going for it, and some of them with very large service organizations that I think are going to get there fair share, so I would predict, Stu, that this is going to continue to be, multi-cloud is going to be a multi-stovepipe cloud for a long, long time. Now, if Nutanix can come in and solve that control plane problem, and demonstrate substantial business value, and deliver competitive advantage, y'know that might change the game. It's difficult at this point in 2017 to see that Nutanix, over those other guys that I just mentioned, has an advantage, clear advantage, maybe from a product standpoint, maybe. But from a resource standpoint, a distribution channel, services organization, ecosystem, all those other things, they seem to me to be counterbalancing. Alright, I'll give you last thought. >> Yeah, so it's great to see Nutanix, they're aiming high, they're expanding into a couple of areas, and they keep listening, so I hope they keep listening to their customers, expand their partnerships, SAAS customers would be really interesting, service provider is something that they've gotten into little bit, but plenty more opportunity for them to go there. Dave, personally for me, to it have been a company I've watched since the earliest days, it's been a pleasure to watch, y'know I think back, right, VMware you said, I think it was a hundred person company when I first started talking to them and Diane Greene, and I look at where VMware went. I've been tracking VMware for now five years, and reminds me a lot of some of those trends, for a 20 person company, I said to hear almost 3000 boggles the mind, I've been to their headquarters a bunch. So it's been fun to watch the Newton army, and they've been loving watching it from our angles. >> Well and these events are very good events, and so there's a lot of passion here, and that's a great fundamental for this company. So I'm a fan, I think it may be undervalued, I think it very well may be undervalued. >> Wall Street definitely doesn't understand this stuff. >> Alright Stu, great working with you this year, (chuckles) this month, this quarter, this month, certainly this show, so great job. I really appreciate it >> Stu: Thanks, Dave. >> There's a big crew behind what Stu and I, and John Ferrier, and Jeff Frick, and others do here. Here today with us Ava, Patrick, Alex, Jay, you guys have had an awesome spring. Brendan is somewhere, I guess Brendan is doing the keynote right now. So, fantastic job, as always, Kristen Nicole and her team, writing up the articles. Jay Johanson back at the controls, Bert with the crowd shots. Everybody, really appreciate all your support, thanks for watching everybody. We'll see you, we got a little break, I think, in the action, cause it's July Fourth, well it's Canada year, or Canada week-- >> Canada Day and Independence Day next week. >> And Independence Day in the United States, and then we'll be at Infor Inforum, second week of July, I'll be there with Rebecca Knight and the crew, so watch for that, check out SiliconAngle.com for all the news, Wikibon.com for all the research, and theCube.net to find all these videos, Youtube.com/SiliconAngle, it's everywhere, if you can't find it, you're not on Twitter, you're not on social. Thanks for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman, we're out. (lo-fi synthesizer music)

(mellow music) >> Announcer: Live, from New Orleans, it's theCUBE, covering Veeam ON, 2017, brought to you by Veeam. >> We're back at the big easy, this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage Dave Valente with Stu Miniman, Jason Buffington, long time CUBE guest and lead analyst at ESG, Jason, great to see you again. >> Thanks for having me >> @JBuff you're welcome, it's always a pleasure. You are an icon in this business. Ratmeyer today on theCUBE brought you up, said my friend, Jason Buffington, made an observation about the industry, and it's great to see you again. >> Thank you. >> So, you got some good play in the keynotes this morning, you guys just recently did a study that you spearheaded, talking about the availability gap, tell us about that research. >> So, 24 countries, a little under 1100 enterprises. So all organizations, over 1000 employees, and what we wanted to look at was how often are you down, how much does it cost when you're down, what are the differences between what the business expects of you, versus what you can actually deliver. Right, and by the way, that's the definition of the gap. Right, so the business expects that we cannot tolerate more than 30 minutes of downtime, and yet your fail over window is two hours. You have the availability gap. If the business says I cannot tolerate more than an hour of data loss, but you only backup once per night, you have a protection gap, right. So, looking at those gaps between the business expectations, and what IT can deliver, via whatever tools they're using, it was an unbiased panel, is what we went off and quantified. There were some really interesting numbers in there. >> Were you able to go to the same firm and ask of business people and IT people at the same firm? >> No, in this case what we did is we looked for IT decision makers who were familiar with the data protection processes they were using, and as well as being able to speak to business issues. So kind of look for the director IT, VP IT, someone who already has the business grade conversation. Probably the person who is being held accountable by the business units when IT fails to deliver. >> Do you think that, we've had a bunch of conversations with the practitioners today about what's the business conversation like, "well we go to the business" "and say how much data are you willing to lose." "Well none!" and then they go back and say >> There's a price for that >> There's a price for that, right. And most are not doing charge backs, some are doing show backs, so it's up to IT to say okay, look, we know they can't afford it. We can't afford it, so this is the level of service that we're going to give them. Do you think that's where the availability gap exists? Or is it because people have the wrong architecture, the wrong processes? >> I think it's more the former than the latter. I did a breakout session on this report earlier today. There was a great question in Q & A, why is it backup is still broken? Why is it no one can fix these gaps? And, what I offered them was that there's a lot of folks that just underestimate backup. They think of it as a cost center. They think it's always broken. Well, backup is not broken, the problem is if we were all still using Windows server 2003 physical boxes and exchange and sequel were still on pram and file was just that, we'd have solved backup ten years ago, right. But every time that you modernize production, it forces a modernization of protection. If you do it reactively, it's because you put in this brand new shiny flex pod or v-block or whatever, and figured out oh that legacy backup doesn't work. If you do it proactively, then you're catching up with things. But the problem is if you underestimate the importance of that, you get these gaps, right? So, what I counseled to the room that I was in was the first thing you have to do is you have to stop talking about data protection, even availability as an IT problem. It is a business impact cause, period. Right, so the first thing you want to do is you want to get all the tech out of the conversation. So, I offer a formula up, I published a book back in 2010, and there's a free chapter. I'll get it to you, so you can put in online, but I basically breakdown the cost of downtime into four values. There's the cost of lost data, there's the cost of lost productivity, right. So there's time down and time you have to repeat. And you can equate those to R2 and RPO. But a parentheses around those and times what's the human cost plus the profitability cost. And that's overly simple, but the point is if you know how long you're down, if you know how much data you will have lost, multiply that times how many butts and seats are sitting idle and how much did the inside sales department not sell that hour, right. That tells you cost of outage. And then all you have to do at that point, and there's no tack in that, right. It's just what is your RPO in real, what's your RTO in real, how much do your humans cost, how much does your department lose? If you have those four things, you know how much the problem is. Then, all you have to do is just go back to your system log and say how many times did that happen this year. If you do that, you've turned an IT problem into a business problem. Anytime I get a hold of C-level executives, the first thing I talk to them about availability is downtime is not in your budget, right. The idea of doing nothing costs you money. That's not in your budget and I guarantee of you did a data protection and availability solution, that will cost you less to your bottom line than the downtime that's unplanned that you have not budgeted for. >> Jason, Ratmere in the keynote this morning talked about the last ten years and they launched a new logo, talked a lot about cloud and physical and the next 10 years. What's your take on the message? Veeam just changed the leadership up a little bit. Are they in a transitional phase? Where are they positioned for kind of that next wave? >> So, the whole market's kind of in a transitional phase. So, I've been in data protection for 28 years. The only thing I've done since before getting out of school. Every time that we've had a major IT platform shift, the leaders in data protection have not made that jump, right. I started when we were doing mid-range, going to netware and over to Windows. >> That was what Ratmeyer was saying today. I didn't want to steal your thunder, so I'm glad you've brought this up. He noted that you had observed this, so carry on. >> Yeah so in times passed, we went went from physical to virtual servers, those leaders didn't make the jump and Veeam did, right. Veeam kind of took the crown on that for this whole last run. Our platform is shifting again, right. Now the difference this time around is and by the way the reason that most people don't make the jump is because whatever made you great from a technology perspective the last time around, doesn't apply to the new platform, right. So, NLMs didn't apply to Windows, agents didn't apply to hosts. We're now moving into cloud, but it's not a cloud, right. Some folks want IS, some want SAS. Neither of those use the same approaches that Veeam's secret sauce for host-based protection will carry for. So, the industry is in kind of a flux, and the other thing which is different this time around is when I was helping people move on to Windows NT, the presumption was we we're going to shutdown all the netware when we were done, right. For most of us, as we move into virtual machines, the presumption was we'd get rid of the metal on the way out. In this case though, cloud is not necessarily the end state, the end state is hybrid. Some data will be on pram, most of that data will be virtualized, some of it will still be physical. Right, the data that's in the cloud. Some of it will just be cloud stores, some of it will be the IS hosted VM, some of it will be SAS. But that's not because it's a prolonged transition, it's because we shouldn't be talking about migration, we should be talking about agility, where some data starts in the cloud and comes home. Other data starts on pram and moves, or from cloud to cloud. Because of that multi-cloud hybrid architecture, if that's the new end state for what IT is going to be delivering on, then the rules change. There is no secret sauce that carries from the last generation over. Certainly, Veeam's going to continue to be thought of as the virtualization data protection solution. But, if you think about they've added agents for physical, they've added cloud-based support on the back end. They announced more support for Office 365 and SAS. They're not a virtualization only play anymore. So, the market is going to have to take a reset, where everybody is unified, the difference is you've got the legacy folks that are unified and trying to catch up on virtualization features. And you've got Veeam, who is unified, where their virtualization is their strong suit, and cloud hosted and physical are the catch ups. So they're flying in opposite directions. >> So, you're saying that Veeam's secret sauce doesn't and virtualization doesn't necessarily carry over, however, they're making moves that will allow them to bridge, is that right? >> Absolutely, so unlike everyone else, who is in that virtualization wave, who solved the end protection and then happily got sold for their IP and you don't know those brands anymore. In this case, Veeam has continually looked at what else do people need, let's go do that. So, 4 or 5 years ago they added snapshot support, which wasn't necessary, but added more scenarios. Then, they added tape, who adds tape in 2015? Right, but they did because they recognized that people needed tape out, and since then they've added cloud, a couple different versions of cloud. This week they announced continuous data protection. Now, I'm glad no one from SNIA is around, cause they have a very prescriptive definition of what CDP is supposed to look like, and this isn't exactly that, so it's really more like KCDP, Kind of CDP, kind of thing. But, they continue to arrow the edges. They added physical support, those agents walls will allow them for IS hosted. They're not unified anymore, and that forward motion, but the moment they've got coming off of the first strategy, that's what's going to keep them moving forward for the next ten years. >> What makes is not KCDP, and makes it pure CDP? Just an infinite granularity or? >> Well, if you ask SNIA folks, they would tell you it's not just about infinite granularity on the protection, it's also infinite recoverability on the way back. So every single microsecond, so-- >> Stu: That's CRR isn't it? >> Yeah, think more like sequel does with every given transaction, could we go back to a given point. >> You need a data base to be involved, to actually get there. >> Yeah, but again, what I think is interesting is it's not just about backup, so in the availability report we talked about the gap between how little downtime that an organization can tolerate, versus just backup can't meet that goal. You can't recover fast enough if the only thing you're going to do is restore from backup. So, being able to integrate snapshots, being able to have replication, which shrinks down that data loss window considerably, that's how you meet the rest of the story, that backup alone can't do. And kudos to Veeam for doing it. >> Jason, how should we think about some of these emerging players who are actually in Veeam's ecosystem? Like Rubric or Cohesity, or Datos. Datos is not here, These sort of new, emerging, they don't want to call themselves backup players, they want to call themselves data protection or availability. How should we think about those emerging players? >> So, I have a category in a slide. I put them all in the category that I lovingly call the disrupters, right, because it forces you to reconsider the conversation. If you kind of step back and I could put Veeam and some of the other legacy unified enterprise class data protection products in one category, and what all of them are saying is let's take the backups that you know and trust us with. We're going to add indexing, we're going to add orchestration, we're going to help you do more with your data along the way. The end result is what the industry is calling copy data management. What else can you do with that data, which is otherwise dormant, sitting away in a store. What the disrupter category would tell you, is instead of starting with backup, and trying to evolve it forward, start with new storage. Think of the things you could do with a new paradigm for storage. >> So, the storage that would automatically know where the footprints are, that would automatically back you up along the way, that would automatically allow for copy data management type scenarios. So, again, it's two ways to get there. There's the backup first approach, and building on who you trust, then, there's the, if you want to start over again, have I got a deal for you. And that's going to be really interesting. For the rest of 2017 and 2018, the whole space of copy data management, copy data virtualization, copy data fill in the blank, that whole idea of good, better, best. Good, keep all your data as long as you need. Better, and get rid of it a moment longer. Then best, what else can you do with it. Analytics, testing, reporting, et cetera. That'll be an interesting market to watch, and one that now that Veeam is broad enough, will start to play in now as the year moves forward. >> Jason, like us, you go to a lot of these conferences. You've been to the Veeam on trail, which was our first one here. For the audience it's not here. What differentiates this show from some of the other ones you go to. What excites you about the community, the show itself, anything surrounding it? >> Sure, Veeam has a wonderful sense of community that most of the other vendors have just not been able to capitalize on. You know, there's certainly, there are many many thousands of IT professionals that have made their career out of this storage platform, or that backup software platform, et cetera. And, they're all good for support. Veeam has somehow cracked that code like Microsoft MVPs. The difference between a post-sale's we'll help you if you want, to a pre-sale's advocates. They literally have a green army walking around on this floor, who is delighted to tell anybody who will listen how Veeam saved their bacon, gave them back their weekend, et cetera. That energy of community, that's what's different about not only Veeam ON, it's also what's different about like a Veeam party at Vmworld or a Microsoft event. That culture and community, they've tapped something special there, and it shows in their results. >> Alright, we've got to wrap there, but I'll give you the last word, any upcoming research we should be paying attention to, or you want to promote a little bit? >> Sure, my blog within ESG is technicaloptimist.com. I do primary research on a whole bunch of things. Next ones coming out are on data protection modernization. So, why are people staying put or changing. If so, why or why not, and then what features matter most. So that's the next one that'll come out for me, and then over the summer I'm going to look at appliances as form factor, there's a lot of those to look at this week. What the affect of the DVA and the VM are having in the market, and then also more on the availability study. What we did for Veeam was so interesting ESG is going to go and take a few other angles and look at it some more. >> Awesome, great research agenda you've got upcoming. We will be looking for that, so, Jason, thanks very much, it was a pleasure to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome, alright, keep it right there buddy. We'll be back, with our next guest at theCUBE. We're live from Veeam ON, 2017 in New Orleans, We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Austin Texas it's the Cube. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back to the Cube SiliconAngle Media's production of DockerCon 2017. I'm Stew Miniman, and joining me for the rap today I have Jim Kobilus who's been my host for the whole day, part of the Wikibon team. Jim, it's been a long day. Your first full day on the Cube, you've been on many times. >> It's been invigorating, I've learned so much. This is an awesomely substantial show. It's been wonderful. We've had so many great guests, oh my gosh. Ben Golub and everybody who came before. Amazing material. >> Stu: And my other guest for the wrap up is John Troyer who's been on the program many times. He sometimes guest host of the program so Chief Reckoner at TechReckoning. John, thanks for joining us. >> Hey, thanks so much for having me, Stu. >> Alright, so you know, we think right, guests we had some really good guests. It's easy for me at the end of the day when you're like oh it's energy flag oh let's have Ben Golub, the CEO of the company that where Docker's gone, and Jerry Chen who always brings energy, part of the V mafia like yourself, John so really interesting stuff. I want to step back, let's talk about the keynote. So I guess John, I'll start with you. Something we've been talking the last year or so is this Docker, Docker, Docker hype. I felt like a little bit of a hype was let out over the last year with the Docker data center, Docker swarm type activity, some of the ecosystem was a little frustrated with the direction that Docker the company was going, compared to where they wanted the open source part to do. Lot of open source, lot of developer talk today. What's your take on the announcements, the ecosystem, opensource? There's so many things, but let's get us started. >> Sure. Well I didn't quite know what to expect, Stu. We hear about Docker going more enterprise, they just made a big enterprise announcement, so I thought we might come in here and hear 45 minutes on digital transformation. And the standard enterprise keynote that you get at every other keynote. And we did not get that this morning. >> I've seen Michael Dell give that keynote in this building. (laughs) So, totally. >> At least we didn't get that here we've all heard that elsewhere. >> Well, at every conference for the last five years, I think. Ten years. So we talked about the ecosystem, that was the first message this morning. It was about growth of the ecosystem, about growth of the partnership, growth of the projects and so that was definitely playing to their strengths, and then they went straight to the code. This was a developer centered keynote, they did live demos with real code. And so they were really playing to the audience here which I think is still predominately developers. So they were signaling that hey, they weren't going all enterprise. Now, the announcements were also interesting. But I think the signal from the keynote was that we are still here, we're all about developer experience, we're about making things simple. >> Yeah, I don't think there's too many shows where you'd start off and they're like oh, here's how you can build really large containers, easier with this multi-part build and filling all this Docker stuff. It's not the suits, it's not the big customers. Having said, does that mean you won't go to tomorrow's keynote because Ben said it's going to be all the enterprise stuff tomorrow. >> I live for the enterprise stuff. I'm really excited about tomorrow. So hopefully, not too much digital transformation. But I think what Docker has announced the last month, not even talking about what happened today, but the Docker packaging, the Docker data, Docker enterprise edition versus consumer edition, and then not consumer, community addition, sorry. And then the tiers of the Docker, Docker enterprise edition, I think is really kind of brilliant. Docker is at a real turning point in its evolution right now. And there was a lot of confusion around what is Docker the project, what is Docker the engine, what is Docker the company, and I think with this kind of packaging, and then with the announcements today, I really think that they've just cleared up a whole lot of confusion in the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean coming in I think I heard a lot of people who were really excited that container D got open sourced. We went to, all three of us went to kubernetes event last night that was over at the Google Fiber Space a couple of blocks from here. And it was oh, cool I get all the opensource like Docker one, that stuff I need, but not all that upper level stuff and advanced things that Docker is building in to it so there's opensource pieces. That goes into the Moby project. Docker's committing, doubling down on a lot of this. We're going to take all these pieces. We're going to work on them, community's going to build it, they can take that compostable view of putting their solutions. And Docker will package and have monetization and things that they'll do there but the partner ecosystem can do different things with that. So what do you guys take on, let's just start with the Moby project first, some of these open source, the whole ecosystem. Positive, you think it's good? >> Yes, very much so. So the maturation of the container ecosystem is in the form of, what you see though the announcements, one of which is customization. So customize containers to the finest degree. They've got that capability now with Moby, exactly. It's all about containers everywhere. Containerization of applications is now the dominant theme in the developer community across all segments. So I think Docker has done the right thing which is doubling down on developers, doubling down on the message and the tooling now for both customization of containers but also for portability with the Linux kit announcement and so forth. Containerization, micro services and so forth across all segments. One of the areas I focus on is artificial intelligence, deep learning. Containerization is coming to that in a big way as well. A lot of it is to drive things like autonomous vehicles and drones and whatnot. But we're going to see containerization come to every other segment of data science, deep learning, machine learning and so forth. It's not just the people at this show, it's other developer communities that are coming to containerization in a big way. And Docker is becoming a premier development tool then for them. Or will be. >> So Jim, Stu, I think even more tactically, there was this confusion about Docker the engine, Docker the container run time, Docker the container specification. Now as pulling that out with container D and now with Linux kit, you always had the thing where Red Hat would say well we have open shift, it's like Docker or it has a piece of Docker or it can work with Docker, you have Cloud Foundry it's like Docker, or has a Docker, or can work with Docker now. And so everybody had to do this dance by saying well, we use some of the technology there. Now, very clean split, very different branding, we use Linux kit, we use container D, we use the Moby framework. And that actually will help again, look, the death of commercial success is confusion. If a buyer does not understand how to get what you want or what you're selling, he's never going to buy anything. >> Yeah, I think we've seen the end of Docker's well, batteries included but removable, cause some confusion in the marketplace. People are like well, but it's not easy, that's kind of what's there, I want to be able to choose the pieces up front. We talked about with Brian Gracely earlier today, what is the pinioned platform because there's certain solutions. Microsoft wants to build what they want. And they've lots of options, but when they want to build an upper level service, they have the pieces underneath that they care about. It's not like oh, okay wait. I have to do this, then I have to uninstall this, that was like in Linux all the time. It's like up, I'm recompiling, I'm recompiling, I have to add things in and remove them it's like no, no, no. I want it in box. In the kernel. And then I can choose and activate what I need. >> My guess is that next year, my prediction is that next year at DockerCon Docker will double down on experience, developer experience. There's not a enough of it yet, here. I think that will be a core theme for them going forward to continue to deepen their mind share in that community. >> I actually, I'll take that and double it. So, one of the reasons that, I think one of the factors, that caused VMWare to come to prominence was its operator experience and its simplicity. VMWare HA high availability was a one check box. VMWare distributed resource schedule which moved virtual machines around, one check box, right? And so with Docker's focus on developer usability and developer experience with today's announcements of Linux kit, that could actually be a huge, huge deal. If in the future, the application development pipeline greatly depends on building a just enough operating system as we used to say back in the day of VMWare with Jerry Chen. >> Stu: Yeah, good 'ol juice. >> Yeah, if that becomes the defining characteristic of building cloud native apps, and it is right? The Docker file is the defining document of our time. If that's the case, and now they've taken it into the Linux distribution world, which could have repercussions for the whole ecosystem, that could be Docker's, you know, again, their magic check box, the developer experience of rolling out a custom stack has just been the level has just been raised. And Linux kit is not new to the world. They just open sourced it today. But it's what they're using to get out their Docker for AWS and Docker for Google cloud. And Docker on public clouds already uses it so it's already in production today. I'm super impressed. >> And I think there was potential that it could have caused more confusion or upset in the ecosystem. But we interviewed Red Hat, and Canonical today and I'm not saying that jumped up and down and embraced and said oh goody, but it wasn't it was like okay, that's fine. It's not there, because there's always got to be that cooptive. I mean Jim, you came most recently from IBM. The company that I most associated with that word co-opetition. So, there's always, there's the swim lanes, there's where you partner together and there's where you sometimes bump heads as to strategy. >> Yeah. And I don't think people should be too alarmed, I mean from a technical level, right there's stuff that runs in containers, there's stuff that runs underneath containers. There's still a role for Ubuntu and there's still a role for Red Hat and there's still a role for CoreOS and Rancher. I don't know enough, I don't have enough of a crystal ball to say what we'll be talking about next year. It could actually have a fairly large dripple effect going out in our ecosystem. >> John, you've also, you've dug into with a couple of vendors here, what about the storage space? It's one we've been digging out of bed. There's still the general consensus is, we still have a little ways to go on the maturity and it's the furthest behind. Big surprise just like VMWare. We spent over a decade doing that. What's your take on storage? Any other comments on just the broad ecosystem, just what needs to work, be worked on and improved over time. >> I think storage is the next area that needs to be worked on. I think that's the next piece that we see as still a little bit fragmented. I've heard from many vendors here at the show that even from Docker itself, that the surprising thing is that containers are not just for cloud native apps. A lot of the enterprise journey, and I imagine we're going to hear about that in tomorrow's keynote, starts with containerizing your big legacy apps. >> Yeah, it's funny. I made a comment at the Google cloud event in San Francisco a month ago. I'm like, hey when did lift and shift all of a sudden become sexy? (laughs) It's of course nuanced on that, and we've had a few interviews Jim, where we've talked about look, there's initiatives that we want to do the cool app modernization and everything there but in the meantime, it is not a bimodal world. We're not going to leave our old stuff there and let it slowly have Larry the engineer keep an eye on it and sleep all the time. The whole world kind of needs to move forward, containers are part of the way to give us the bridge to the future if you will. >> Yeah, how do you containerize the legacy app the mainframe app for example, it's got a petabyte of data in its storage, I mean you just got to work through the data, I mean the deep data issues there, you know. >> Yeah, you can run Docker on a mainframe. I mean, I've done interviews on that. You work with those people, Jim. And it's one of those oh wait, okay, right. So there's pieces that'll be updated and people that are changed. John, you and I have talked. I remember early days of VMWare. It was let me take that horrible 10 year old application that's running on Windows NT which is going into life, and my hardware's going to die, let me shove it into VM and leave it there for another five, ten years. And it was like, please don't do that. >> Sometimes the real world intrudes. I think we are, part of this problem does get smoothed over or confused but we're talking about both on prem apps and public cloud apps. And that can get a little confusing because the storage issues, going back to storage, are a little different. Right? Especially in the public cloud, you've got issues of data locality, you've got issues of latency, even performance and so you see a number of vendors who are approaching it. It's very easy to connect the container to some sort of persistent volume. It is very hard to give something that its performance and is backed up and is, you know is going to be there. People have spent, the storage industry has spent decades on those problems. I don't think we're there yet in terms of the generic container that is floating either in public cloud or on prem. >> And they can handle the hybrid cloud, hybrid data clouds of which there are a myriad in terms of high public private zones within a distributed data architecture with varying degrees of velocity and variety. Managing all that data in a containerized environments with rich orchestration among them, to replication and streaming and so forth. >> You can do it, but it's not, it's cutting edge right now. >> Yeah, it's cutting edge. >> So, John last question I have to ask you is something near and dear to your heart. When you talk about careers and people that are doing, there's a lot of people here, people I used to see in the VMWare community that learning all the cool new stuff. Anything you see is Docker doing evangelism? Program the influencer program type thing? Are you seeing anything in the educational spaces from career space, what can you share? >> Sure, Docker is very rich in community it's kind of been the engine of their growth. They've long had a huge user group program, they have a campus program, they have a mentorship program, and they also have the Docker captains. The Docker captains started, oh I don't know, a year, a year and a half ago and is an advocacy program, I think there's 70 of them now, they work very closely with them. The come from all across the ecosystem which is kind of interesting. Everybody from Dehli MC and many companies. So that's pretty cool that these people, it feels a lot like early days of VMWare, these people have day jobs but yet they spend their nights and weekends hacking on Docker. And Docker takes advantage of that, I mean in the best sort of way. They give them opportunities, they give them platforms to speak, they give them platforms to help others. And I see that's in full force here. They have a track here at the show, so Dockers are leaning heavily on its community. I even saw one person here, Stu from from a mainline storage company said you know what, my company's not here but I am because I have to learn how to do this. I think people who are here have a good next phase of their career. >> That's a smart. A community advocacy program of that sort is actually is even more important than an event like this in terms of deepening the loyalty of the developers to leverage providers and their growing stacks. >> John: Docker the company is very small. There's a very large community and a very small company. >> Stu: Three hundred and some odd people. >> They have to leverage those resources. >> John: Exactly. >> Well, Jim thanks for all your help co-hosting today, John, really appreciate you coming in, especially some of that community ecosystem expertise that you bring. By the way, John's going to be co-hosting open stack summit with me. Another one that will have lost (mumbles) where that ecosystem community is and where it's going in a couple of weeks in my home state of Massachusetts in Boston. So be sure to tune in tomorrow, we've got a full day of coverage. First guest is going to be Solomon Hykes coming off the day two keynote. We're going to talk a little bit more about enterprise. We got a full lineup of guests. So be sure to check out siliconangle.tv for everything there. So for Jim Kobielus, John Troyer and myself Stu Miniman, thank you for watching day one of the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017. (upbeat music)