(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome to this CUBE conversation where we're going to go deep into system performance. We're here with an expert. Kim Leyenaar is the Principal Performance Architect at Broadcom. Kim. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks so much too. >> So you have a deep background in performance, performance assessment, benchmarking, modeling. Tell us a little bit about your background, your role. >> Thanks. So I've been a storage performance engineer and architect for about 22 years. And I'm specifically been for abroad with Broadcom for I think next month is going to be my 14 year mark. So what I do there is initially I built and I manage their international performance team, but about six years ago I moved back into architecture, and what my roles right now are is I generate performance projections for all of our next generation products. And then I also work on marketing material and I interface with a lot of the customers and debugging customer issues, and looking at how our customers are actually using our storage. >> Great. Now we have a graphic that we want to share. It talks to how storage has evolved over the past decade. So my question is what changes have you seen in storage and how has that impacted the way you approach benchmarking. In this graphic we got sort of big four items that impact performance, memory processor, IO pathways, and the storage media itself, but walk us through this data if you would. >> Sure. So what I put together is a little bit of what we've seen over the past 15 to 20 years. So I've been doing this for about 22 years and kind of going back and focusing a little bit on the storage, we looked back at hard disk, they ruled for. And nearly they had almost 50 years of ruling. And our first hard drive that came out back in the 1950s was only capable of five megabytes in capacity. and one and a half iOS per second. It had almost a full second in terms of seat time. So we've come a long way since then. But when I first came on, we were looking at Ultra 320 SCSI. And one of the biggest memories that I have of that was my office is located close to our tech support. And I could hear the first question was always, what's your termination like? And so we had some challenges with SCSI, and then we moved on into SAS and data protocols. And we continued to move on. But right now, back in the early 2000s when I came on board, the best drives really could do maybe 400 iOS per second. Maybe two 250 megabytes per second, with millisecond response times. And so when I was benchmarking way back when it was always like, well, IOPS are IOPS. We were always faster than what the drives to do. And that was just how it was. The drives were always the bottleneck in the system. And so things started changing though by the early 2000s, mid 2000s. We started seeing different technologies come out. We started seeing that virtualization and multi-tenant infrastructures becoming really popular. And then we had cloud computing that was well on the horizon. And so at this point, we're like, well, wait a minute, we really can't make processors that much faster. And so everybody got excited to include (indistinct) and the home came out but, they had two cores per processor and four cores per processor. And so we saw a little time period where actually the processing capability kind of pulled ahead of everybody else. And memory was falling behind. We had good old DVR, 2, 6, 67. It was new with the time, but we only had maybe one or two memory channels per processor. And then in 2007 we saw disk capacity hit one terabyte. And we started seeing a little bit of an imbalance because we were seeing these drives are getting massive, but their performance per drive was not really kind of keeping up. So now we see a revolution around 2010. And my co-worker and I at the time, we have these little USB discs, if you recall, we would put them in. They were so fast. We were joking at the time. "Hey, you know what, wonder if we could make a raid array out of these little USB disks?" They were just so fast. The idea was actually kind of crazy until we started seeing it actually happen. So in 2010 SSD started revolutionizing storage. And the first SSDs that we really worked with these plaint LS-300 and they were amazing because they were so over-provisioned that they had almost the same reader, right performance. But to go from a drive that could do maybe 400 IOS per second to a drive like 40,000 plus iOS per second, really changed our thought process about how our storage controller could actually try and keep up with the rest of the system. So we started falling behind. That was a big challenge for us. And then in 2014, NVMe came around as well. So now we've got these drives, they're 30 terabytes. They can do one and a half million iOS per second, and over 6,000 megabytes per second. But they were expensive. So people start relegating SSDs more towards tiered storage or cash. And as the prices of these drives kind of came down, they became a lot more mainstream. And then the memory channels started picking up. And they started doubling every few years. And we're looking now at DVR 5 4800. And now we're looking at cores that used to go from two to four cores per processor up to 48 with some of the latest different processes that are out there. So our ability to consume the computing and the storage resources, it's astounding, you know, it's like that whole saying, 'build it and they will come.' Because I'm always amazed, I'm like, how are we going to possibly utilize all this memory bandwidth? How are we going to utilize all these cores? But we do. And the trick to this is having just a balanced infrastructure. It's really critical. Because if you have a performance mismatch between your server and your storage, you really lose a lot of productivity and it does impact your revenue. >> So that's such a key point. Pardon, begin that slide up again with the four points. And that last point that you made Kim about balance. And so here you have these, electronic speeds with memory and IO, and then you've got the spinning disc, this mechanical disc. You mentioned that SSD kind of changed the game, but it used to be, when I looked at benchmarks, it was always the D stage bandwidth of the cash out to the spinning disc was always the bottleneck. And, you go back to the days of you it's symmetrics, right? The huge backend disk bandwidth was how they dealt with that. But, and then you had things the oxymoron of the day was high spin speed disks of a high performance disk. Compared to memories. And, so the next chart that we have is show some really amazing performance increases over the years. And so you see these bars on the left-hand side, it looks at historical performance for 4k random IOPS. And on the right-hand side, it's the storage controller performance for sequential bandwidth from 2008 to 2022. That's 22 is that yellow line. It's astounding the increases. I wonder if you could tell us what we're looking at here, when did SSD come in and how did that affect your thinking? (laughs) >> So I remember back in 2007, we were kind of on the precipice of SSDs. We saw it, the writing was on the wall. We had our first three gig SAS and SATA capable HPAs that had come out. And it was a shock because we were like, wow, we're going to really quickly become the bottleneck once this becomes more mainstream. And you're so right though about people work in, building these massive hard drive based back ends in order to handle kind of that tiered architecture that we were seeing that back in the early 2010s kind of when the pricing was just so sky high. And I remember looking at our SAS controllers, our very first one, and that was when I first came in at 2007. We had just launched our first SAS controller. We're so proud of ourselves. And I started going how many IOPS can this thing, even handled? We couldn't even attach enough drives to figure it out. So what we would do is we'd do these little tricks where we would do a five 12 byte read, and we would do it on a 4k boundary, so that it was actually reading sequentially from the disc, but we were handling these discrete IOPS. So we were like, oh, we can do around 35,000. Well, that's just not going to hit it anymore. Bandwidth wise we were doing great. Really our limitation and our bottleneck on bandwidth was always either the host or the backend. So, our controllers are there basically, there were three bottlenecks for our storage controllers. The first one is the bottleneck from the host to the controller. So that is typically a PCIe connection. And then there's another bottleneck on the controller to the disc. And that's really the number of ports that we have. And then the third one is the discs themselves. So in typical storage, that's what we look at. And we say, well, how do we improve this? So some of these are just kind of evolutionary, such as PCIE generations. And we're going to talk a little bit about that, but some of them are really revolutionary, and those are some of the things that we've been doing over the last five or six years to try and make sure that we are no longer the bottleneck. And we can enable these really, really fast drives. >> So can I ask a question? I'm sorry to interrupted but on these blue bars here. So these all spinning disks, I presume, out years they're not. Like when did flash come in to these blue bars? is that..you said 27 you started looking at it, but on these benchmarks, is it all spinning disc? Is it all flash? How should we interpret that? >> No, no. Initially they were actually all hard drives. And the way that we would identify, the max iOS would be by doing very small sequential reads to these hard drives. We just didn't have SSDs at that point. And then somewhere around 2010 is where we.. it was very early in that chart, we were able to start incorporating SSD technology into our benchmarking. And so what you're looking at here is really the max that our controller is capable of. So we would throw as many drives as we could and do what we needed to do in order to just make sure our controller was the bottleneck and what can we expose. >> So the drive then when SSD came in was no longer the bottleneck. So you guys had to sort of invent and rethink sort of how, what your innovation and your technology, because, I mean, these are astounding increases in performance. I mean, I think in the left-hand side, we've built this out pad, you got 170 X increase for the 4k random IOPS, and you've got a 20 X increase for the sequential bandwidth. How were you able to achieve that level of performance over time? >> Well, in terms of the sequential bandwidth, really those come naturally by increases in the PCIe or the SAS generation. So we just make sure we stay out of the way, and we enable that bandwidth. But the IOPS that's where it got really, really tricky. So we had to start thinking about different things. So, first of all, we started optimizing all of our pathways, all of our IO management, we increased the processing capabilities on our IO controllers. We added more on-chip memory. We started putting in IO accelerators, these hardware accelerators. We put in SAS poor kind of enhancements. We even went and improved our driver to make sure that our driver was as thin as possible. So we can make sure that we can enable all the IOPS on systems. But a big thing happening a few couple of generations ago was we started introducing something called tri capable controllers, which means that you could attach NVMe. You could attach SAS or you could attach SATA. So you could have this really amazing deployment of storage infrastructure based around your customized needs and your cost requirements by using one controller. >> Yeah. So anybody who's ever been to a trade show where they were displaying a glass case with a Winchester disc drive, for example, you see it's spinning and its actuators is moving, wow, that's so fast. Well, no. That's like a tourist slower. It's like a snail compared to the system's speed. So it's, in a way life was easy back in those days, because when you did a right to a disk, you had plenty of time to do stuff, right. And now it's changed. And so I want to talk about Gen3 versus Gen4, and how all this relates to what's new in Gen4 and the impacts of PCIe here, you have a chart here that you've shared with us that talks to that. And I wonder if you could elaborate on that, Kim. >> Sure. But first, you said something that kind of hit my funny bone there. And I remember I made a visit once about 15 or 20 years ago to IBM. And this gentleman actually had one of those old ones in his office and he referred to them as disk files. And he never until the day he retired, he'd never stopped calling them disc files. And it's kind of funny to be a part of that history. >> Yeah. DASD. They used to call it. (both laughing) >> SD, DASD. I used to get all kinds of, you know, you don't know what it was like back then, but yeah. But now nowadays we've got it quite easily enabled because back then, we had, SD DASD and all that. And then, ATA and then SCSI, well now we've got PCIe. And what's fabulous about PCIe is that it just has the generations are already planned out. It's incredible. You know, we're looking at right now, Gen3 moving to Gen4, and that's a lot about what we're going to be talking about. And that's what we're trying to test out. What is Gen4 PCIe when to bias? And it really is. It's fantastic. And PCIe came around about 18 years ago and Broadcom is, and we do participate and contribute to the PCIe SIG, which is, who develops the standards for PCIe, but the host in both our host interface in our NVMe desk and utilize the standards. So this is really, really a big deal, really critical for us. But if you take a look here, you can see that in terms of the capabilities of it, it's really is buying us a lot. So most of our drives right now NVMe drives tend to be by four. And a lot of people will connect them. And what that means is four lanes of NVMe and a lot of people that will connect them either at by one or by two kind of depending on what their storage infrastructure will allow. But the majority of them you could buy, or there are so, as you can see right now, we've gone from eight gig transfers per second to 16 gig of transfers per second. What that means is for a by four, we're going from one drive being able to do 4,000 to do an almost 8,000 megabytes per second. And in terms of those 4k IOPS that really evade us, they were really really tough sometimes to squeeze out of these drives, but now we're got 1 million, all we have to 2 million, it's just, it's insane. You know, just the increase in performance. And there's a lot of other standards that are going to be sitting on top of PCIe. So it's not going away anytime soon. We've got to open standards like CXL and things like that, but we also have graphics cards. You've got all of your hosts connections, they're also sitting on PCIe. So it's fantastic. It's backwards, it's orbits compatible, and it really is going to be our future. >> So this is all well and good. And I think I really believe that a lot of times in our industry, the challenges in the plumbing are underappreciated. But let's make it real for the audience because we have all these new workloads coming out, AI, heavily data oriented. So I want to get your thoughts on what types of workloads are going to benefit from Gen4 performance increases. In other words, what does it mean for application performance? You shared a chart that lists some of the key workloads, and I wonder if we could go through those. >> Yeah, yeah. I could have a large list of different workloads that are able to consume large amounts of data, whether or not it's in small or large kind of bytes of data. But as you know right now, and I said earlier, our ability to consume these compute and storage resources is amazing. So you build it and we'll use it. And the world's data we're expected to grow 61% to 175 zettabytes by the year 2025, according to IDC. So that's just a lot of data to manage. It's a lot of data to have, and it's something that's sitting around, but to be useful, you have to actually be able to access it. And that's kind of where we come in. So who is accessing it? What kind of applications? I spend a lot of time trying to understand that. And recently I attended a virtual conference SDC and what I like to do when I attend these conferences is to try to figure out what the buzz words are. What's everybody talking about? Because every year it's a little bit different, but this year was edge, edge everything. And so I kind of put edge on there first in, even you can ask anybody what's edge computing and it's going to mean a lot of different things, but basically it's all the computing outside of the cloud. That's happening typically at the edge of the network. So it tends to encompass a lot of real time processing on those instant data. So in the data is usually coming from either users or different sensors. It's that last mile. It's where we kind of put a lot of our content caching. And, I uncovered some interesting stuff when I was attending this virtual conference and they say only about 25% of all the usable data actually even reach the data center. The rest is ephemeral and it's localized, locally and in real time. So what it does is in the goal of edge computing is to try and reduce the bandwidth costs for these kinds of IOT devices that go over a long distance. But the reality is the growth of real-time applications that require these kinds of local processing are going to drive this technology forward over the coming years. So Dave, your toaster and your dishwasher they're, IOT edge devices probably in the next year, if they're not already. So edge is a really big one and consumes a lot of the data. >> The buzzword does your now is met the metaverse, it's almost like the movie, the matrix is going to come in real time. But the fact is it's all this data, a lot of videos, some of the ones that I would call out here, you mentioned facial recognition, real-time analytics. A lot of the edge is going to be real-time inferencing, applying AI. And these are just a massive, massive data sets that you again, you and of course your customers are enabling. >> When we first came out with our very first Gen3 product, our marketing team actually asked me, "Hey, how can we show users how they can consume this?" So I actually set up a head to environment. I decided I'm going to learn how to do this. I set up this massive environment with Hadoop, and at the time they called big data, the 3V's, I don't know if you remember these big 3Vs, the volume, velocity and variety. Well Dave, did you know, there are now 10 Vs? So besides those three, we got velocity, we got valued, we got variability, validity, vulnerability, volatility, visualization. So I'm thinking we need just to add another beat of that. >> Yeah. (both laughing) Well, that's interesting. You mentioned that, and that sort of came out of the big data world, a dupe world, which was very centralized. You're seeing the cloud is expanding, the world's getting, you know, data is by its very nature decentralized. And so you've got to have the ability to do an analysis in place. A lot of the edge analytics are going to be done in real time. Yes, sure. Some of it's going to go back in the cloud for detailed modeling, but we are the next decade Kim, ain't going to be like the last I often say. (laughing) I'll give you the last word. I mean, how do you see this sort of evolving, who's going to be adopting this stuff. Give us a sort of a timeframe for this kind of rollout in your world. >> In terms of the timeframe. I mean really nobody knows, but we feel like Gen5, that it's coming out next year. It may not be a full rollout, but we're going to start seeing Gen5 devices and Gen5 infrastructure is being built out over the next year. And then follow very, very, very quickly by Gen6. And so what we're seeing though is, we're starting to see these graphics processors, These GPU's, and I'm coming out as well, that are going to be connecting, using PCIe interfaces as well. So being able to access lots and lots and lots of data locally is going to be a really, really big deal and order because worldwide, all of our companies they're using business analytics. Data is money. And the person that actually can improve their operational efficiency, bolster those sales and increase your customer satisfaction. Those are the companies that are going on to win. And those are the companies that are going to be able to effectively store, retrieve and analyze all the data that they're collecting over the years. And that requires an abundance of data. >> Data is money and it's interesting. It kind of all goes back to when Steve jobs decided to put flash inside of an iPhone and the industry exploded, consumer economics kicked in 5G now edge AI, a lot of the things you talked about, GPU's the neural processing unit. It's all going to be coming together in this decade. Very exciting. Kim, thanks so much for sharing this data and your perspectives. I'd love to have you back when you got some new perspectives, new benchmark data. Let's do that. Okay. >> I look forward to it. Thanks so much. >> You're very welcome. And thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(digital music) >> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The storage business as we know it has changed forever. On-prem storage was once a virtually unlimited and untapped bastion of innovation, VC funding and lucrative exits. Today it's a shadow of its former self and the glory days of storage will not return. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights Powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll lay out our premise for what's happening in the storage industry, and share some fresh insights from our ETR partners, and data that supports our thinking. We've had three decades of tectonic shifts in the storage business. From the simplified history of this industry shows us there've been five major waves of innovation spanning five decades. The dominant industry model has evolved from what was first the mainframe centric vertically integrated business, but of course by IBM and it became a disintegrated business that saw between like 70 or 80 Winchester disk drive companies that rose and then fell. They served a booming PC industry in this way it was led by the likes of Seagate. Now Seagate supplied the emergence of an intelligent controller based external disc array business that drove huge margins for functions that while lucrative was far cheaper than captive storage from system vendors, this era of course was led by EMC and NetApp. And then this business was disrupted by a flash and software defined model that was led by Pure Storage and also VMware. Now the future of storage is being defined by cloud and intelligent data management is being led by AWS and a three letter company that we'll just call TBD, otherwise known as Jump Ball Incorporated. Now, let's get into it here, the impact of AWS cannot be overstated now while legacy storage players, they're sick and tired of talking about the cloud, the reality cannot be ignored. The cloud has been the most disruptive force in storage over the past 10 years, and we've reported on the spending impact extensively. But cloud is not the only factor pressuring the on-prem storage business, flash has killed what we call performance by spindles. In other words, the practice of adding more disk drives to keep performance from tanking. So much flash has been injected into the data center that that no longer is required. But now as you drill down into the cloud, AWS has been by far the most significant factor in our view. Lots of people talked about object storage before AWS, but there sure wasn't much spending going on, S3 changed that. AWS is getting much more aggressive about expanding its storage portfolio and its offerings. S3 came out in 2006 and it was the very first AWS service and then Elastic Block Service EBS came out a couple of years later, nobody really paid much attention. Well last fall at storage day, we saw AWS announce a number of services, many fire-related and this year we saw four new announcements of Amazon at re:Invent. We think AWS' storage revenue will surpass 8 billion this year and could be as high as 10 billion. There's not much data out there, but this would mean that AWS' storage biz is larger than that of a NetApp, which means AWS is larger than every traditional storage player with the exception of Dell. Here's a little glimpse of what's coming at the legacy storage business. It's a clip of the vice-president of AWS storage, her name is Mahlon Thompson Bukovec, watch this. Okay now, you may say Dave, what the heck does that have to do with anything? Yeah, I don't know, but as an older white guy, that's been in this business for awhile, I just think it's badass that this woman boxes and runs a business that we think is approaching $10 billion. Now let's take a quick look at the storage announcements AWS made at re:Invent. The company made four announcements this year, let me try to be brief, the first is EBS io2 Block Express Volumes, got to love the names. AWS was claims this is the first storage area network or sand for the cloud and it offers up to 256,000 IOPS and 4,000 megabytes per second throughput and 64 terabytes of capacity. Hey, sounds pretty impressive right, Well let's dig in a little bit okay, first of all, this is not the first sand in the cloud, at least in my view there may be others but Pure Storage announced cloud block store in 2019 at its annual accelerate customer conference and it's pretty comparable here. Maybe not so much in the speeds and feeds, but the concept of better block storage in the cloud with higher availability. Now, as you may also be saying, what's the big deal? The performance come on, we can smoke that we're on-prem vendor We can bury that. Compared to what we do, AWS' announcement is really not that impressive okay, let me give you a point of comparison there's a startup out there called VAST Data. Just there for you and closure with bundled storage and compute can do 400,000 IOPS and 40,000 megabytes per second and that can be scaled, so yeah, I get it. And AWS also announced that io2 two was priced at 20% less than previous generation volumes, which you might say is also no big deal and I would agree 20% is not as aggressive as the average price decline per gigabyte of any storage technology. AWS loves to make a big deal about its price declines, it's essentially following the industry trends but the point is that this feature will be great for a lot of workloads and it's fully integrated with AWS services meaning for example, it will be very convenient for AWS customers to invoke this capability for example Aurora and other AWS databases through its RDS service, just another easy button for developers to push. This is specially important as we see AWS rapidly expanding its machine learning in AI capabilities with SageMaker, it's embedding ML into things like Redshift and driving analytics, so integration is very key for its customers. Now, is Amazon retail going to run its business on io2 volumes? I doubt it. I believe they're running on Oracle and they need much better performance, but this is a mainstream service for the EBS masses to tap. Now, the other notable announcement was EBS Gp3 volumes. This is essentially a service that lets let you programmatically set SLAs for IOPS and throughput independently without needing to add additional storage. Again, you may be saying things like, well atleast I remember when SolidFire let me do this several years ago and gave me more than 3000 IOPS and 125 megabytes per a second performance, but look, this is great for mainstream customers that want more consistent and predictable performance and that want to set some kind of threshold or floor and it's integrated again into the AWS stack. Two other announcements were made, one that automatically tiers data to colder storage tiers and a replication service. On the former, data migrates to tier two after 90 days of inaccess and tier three, after 180 days. AWS remember, they hired a bunch of folks out of EMC years ago and they put them up in the Boston Seaport area, so they've acquired lots of expertise in a lot of different areas I'm not sure if tiering came out of that group but look, this stuff is not rocket science, but it saves customers money. So these are tried and true techniques that AWS is applying but the important thing is it's in the cloud. Now for sure we'd like to see more policy options than say for example, a fixed 90 day or 180 day policy and more importantly we'd like to see intelligent tiering where the machine is smart enough to elevate and promote certain datasets when they're needed for instance, at the end of a quarter for comparison purposes or at the end of the year, but as NFL Hall of Fame Coach Hank Stram would have said, AWS is matriculating the ball down the field. Okay, let's look at some of the data that supports what we're saying here in our premise today. This chart shows spending across the ETR taxonomy. It depicts the net score or spending velocity for different sectors. We've highlighted storage, now don't put too much weight on the January data because the survey was just launched, but you can see storage continues to be a back burner item relative to some other spending priorities. Now as I've reported, CIOs are really focused on cloud, containers, container orchestration, automation, productivity and other key areas like security. Now let's take a look at some of the financial data from the storage crowd. This chart shows data for eight leading names in storage and we put storage in quotes because as we said earlier, the market is shifting and for sure companies like Cohesity and Rubrik, they're not positioning as storage players in fact, that's the last thing they want to do. Rather they're category creators around data management or intelligent data management but their inadjacency to storage, they're partnering with all the primary storage companies and they're in the ETR taxonomy. Okay, so as you can see, we're showing the year over year, quarterly revenue growth for the leading storage companies. NetApp is a big winner, they're growing at a whopping 2%. They beat expectations, but expectations were way down so you can see in the right most column upper right, we've added the ETR net score from October and net score of 10% says that if you ask customers, are you spending more or less with a company, there are 10% of the customers that are essentially spending more than are spending less, get into that a little further later. For comparison, a company like Snowflake, it has a net score approaching 70% Pure Storage used to be that high several years ago or high sixties anyway. So 10% is in the red zone and yet NetApp, is the big winner this quarter. Now Nutanix isn't really again a storage company, but they're an adjacency and they sell storage and like many of these companies, it's transitioning to a subscription pricing model, so that puts pressure on the income statement, that's why they went out and did a deal with Bain, Bain put in $750 million to help Bridge that transition so that's kind of an interesting move. Every company in this chart is moving to an annual recurring revenue model and that as a service approach is going to be the norm by the end of the decade. HPE's doing it with GreenLake, Dell has announced Apex, virtually every company is headed in this direction. Now speaking of HPE, it's Nimble business that has momentum, but other parts of the storage portfolio are quite a bit softer. Dell continues to see pressure on its storage business although VxRail is a bright spot. Everybody's got a bright spot, everybody's got new stuff that's growing much faster than the old stuff, the problem is the old stuff is much much bigger than the new stuff. IBM's mainframe storage cycle, well that's seems to have run its course, they had been growing for the last several quarters that looks like it's over. And so very very cyclical businesses here now as you can see, The data protection data management companies, they are showing spending momentum but they're not public so we don't have revenue data. But you got to wonder with all the money these guys have raised and the red hot IPO and tech markets, why haven't these guys gone public? The answer has to be that they're either not ready or maybe their a numbers weren't where they want them to be, maybe they're not predictable enough, maybe they don't have their operational act together or maybe they need to you get that in order, some combination of those factors is likely. They'll tell you, they'll give other answers if you ask them, but if they had their stuff together they'd be going out right now. Now here's another look at the spending data in terms of net score, which is again spending velocity. The ETR here is measuring the percent of respondents that are adopting new, spending more, spending flat, spending less or retiring the platform. So net score is adoptions, which is the lime green plus the spending more, which is the forest green. Add those two and then subtract spending less, which is the pink and then leaving the platform, which is the bright red, what's left over is net score. So, let's look at the picture here, Cohesity leads all players in the storage taxonomy, the ETR storage taxonomy, again they don't position that way, but that's the way the customers are answering. They've got 55% net score which is really solid and you can see the data in the upper right-hand corner, it's followed by Nutanix. Now they're really not again in the scope of Pure play storage play but speaking of Pure, its net score has come down from its high of 73% in January, 2016. It's not going to climb back up there, but it's going to be interesting to see if Pure net scorecard rebound in a post COVID world. We're also watching what Pure does in terms of unifying file and object and how it's fairing in cloud and what it does with the Portworx acquisition which is really designed to bring forth a new programming model. Now, Dell is doing fine with VxRail, but VSAN is well off its net score highs which we're in the 60% plus range a couple of years ago, VSAN is definitely been a factor from VMware, but again that's come off its highs, HPE with Nimble still has some room to improve, I think it actually will I think that these figures that we're showing here they're are somewhat depressed by the COVID factor, I expect Nimble is going to bounce back in future surveys. Dell and NetApp are the big leaders in terms of presence or market share in the data other than VMware, 'cause VMware has a lot of instances, it's software defined that's why they're so prominent. And with VMware's large share you'd expect them to have net scores that are tepid and you can see a similar pattern with IBM. So Dell, NetApp, tepid net scores as is IBM because of their large market share VMware, kind of a newer entry into the play and so doing pretty well there from a net score standpoint. Now Commvault like Cohesity and Rubrik is really around intelligent data management, trying to go beyond backup into business recovery, data protection, DevOps, bringing that analytics, bringing that to the cloud, we didn't put Veeam in here and we probably should have. They had pre-COVID net scores well in to the thirties and they have a steadily increasing share of the market, so we expect good things from Veeam going forward. They were acquired earlier this year by Insight, capital private equity firm. So big changes there as well, that was their kind of near-term exit maybe more to come. But look, it's all relative, this is a large and mature market that is moving to the cloud and moving to other adjacencies. And the core is still primary storage, that's the main supreme prerequisite and everything else flows from there, data protection, replication, everything else. This chart gives you another view of the competitive landscape, it's that classic XY chart it plots net score in the vertical axis and market share on the horizontal axis, market share remember is a measure of presence in the dataset. Now think about this from the CIO's perspective, they have their on-prem estate, got all this infrastructure and they're putting a brick wall around their core systems. And what do they want out of storage for that class of workload? They want it to perform consistently, they want it to be efficient and they want it to be cost-effective, so what are they going to do? they're going to consolidate, They're going to consolidate the number of vendors, they're going to consolidate the storage, they're going to minimize complexity, yeah, they're going to worry about the blast radius, but there's ways to architect around that. The last thing they want to worry about is managing a zillion storage vendors this business is consolidating, it has been for some time, we've seen the number of independent storage players that are going public as consolidated over the years, and it's going to continue. so on-prem storage arrays are not giving CIOs the innovation and strategic advantage back when things like storage virtualization, space efficient snapshots, data de-duplication and other storage services were worth maybe taking a flyer on a feature product like for example, a 3PAR or even a Data Domain. Now flash gave the CIOs more headroom and better performance and so as I said earlier, they're not just buying spindles to increase performance, so as more and more work gets pushed to the cloud, you're seeing a bunkering in on these large scale mission-critical workloads. As you saw earlier, the legacy storage market is consolidating and has been for a while as I just said, it's essentially becoming a managed decline business where RnD is going to increasingly get squeezed and go to other areas, both from the vendor community and on the buy-side where they're investing on things like cloud, containers and in building new layers in their business and of course the DX, the Digital Transformation. I mentioned VAST Data before, it is a company that's growing and another company that's growing is Infinidat and these guys are traditional storage on-prem models they don't bristle If I say traditional they're nexgen if you will but they don't own a cloud, so they were selling to the data center. Now Infinidat is focused on petabyte scale and as they say, they're growing revenues, they're having success consolidating storage that thing that I just talked about. Ironically, these are two Israeli founder based companies that are growing and you saw earlier, this is a share shift the market is not growing overall the part of that's COVID, but if you exclude cloud, the market is under pressure. Now these two companies that I'm mentioning, they're kind of the exception to the rule here, they're tiny in the grand scheme of things, they're really not going to shift the market and their end game is to get acquired so they can still share, but they're not going to reverse these trends. And every one on this chart, every on-prem player has to have a cloud strategy where they connect into the cloud, where they take advantage of native cloud services and they help extend their respective install bases into the cloud, including having a capability that is physically proximate to the cloud with a colo like an Equinix or some other approach. Now, for example at re:Invent, we saw that AWS has hybrid strategy, we saw that evolving. AWS is trying to bring AWS to the edge and they treat the data center as just another edge note, so outposts and smaller versions of outposts and things like local zones are all part of bringing AWS to the edge. And we saw a few companies Pure, Infinidant, Veeam come to mind that are connecting to outpost. They saw the Qumulo was in there, Clumio, Commvault, WekaIO is also in there and I'm sure I'm missing some so, DM me, email me, yell at me, I'm sorry I forgot you but you get the point. These companies that are selling on-prem are connecting to the cloud, they're forced to connect to the cloud much in the same way as they were forced to join the VMware ecosystem and try to add value, try to keep moving fast. So, that's what's going on here, what's the prognosis for storage in the coming year? Well, where've of all the good times gone? Look, we would never bet against data but the days of selling storage controllers that masks the deficiencies of spinning disc or add embedded hardware functions or easily picking off a legacy install base with flash, well, those days are gone. Repatriation, it ain't happening it's maybe tiny little pockets. CIOs are rationalizing their on-premises portfolios so they can invest in the cloud, AI, machine learning, machine intelligence, automation and they're re-skilling their teams. Low latency high bandwidth workloads with minimal jitter, that's the sweet spot for on-prem it's becoming the mainframe of storage. CIOs are also developing a cloud first strategy yes, the world is hybrid but what does that mean to CIOs? It means you're going to have some work in the cloud and some work on-prem, there's a hybrid We've got both. Everything that can go to the cloud, will go to the cloud, in our opinion and everything that can't or shouldn't won't. Yes, people will make mistakes and they'll "repatriate" but generally that's the trend. And the CIOs they're building an abstraction layer to connect workloads from an observability and manageability standpoint so they can maintain control and manage lock-in risk, they have options. Everything that doesn't go to the cloud will likely have some type of hybridicity to it, the reverse won't likely be the case. For vendors, cloud strategies involve supporting your install basis migration to the cloud, that's where they're going, that's where they want to go, they want your help there's business to be made there so enabling low latency hybrids in accommodating subscription models, well, that's a whole another topic, but that's the trend that we see and you rethink the business that you're in, for instance, data management and developing an edge strategy that recognizes that edge workloads are going to require new architecture and that's more efficient than what we've seen built around general purpose systems, and wow, that's a topic for another day. You're seeing this whole as a service model really reshape the entire cultures in the way in which the on-prem vendors are operating no longer is it selling a box that has dramatically marked up controllers and disc drives, it's really thinking about services that could be invoked in the cloud. Now remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcasts and please subscribe, I'd appreciate that checkout etr.plus for all the survey action. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. A lot of ways to get in touch. You can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. you could DM me @dvellante on Twitter, comment on our LinkedIn posts, I always appreciate that. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights Powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everyone stay safe and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

hey welcome back to VMworld 2013 this is the cube live in San Francisco California Moscone Center south lobby this is a cube our flagship program we go out the events expect to see the flu noise I'm John Frieda founder of silicon I'm joy of my coasts day Volante boogie bun or hi everybody wanna talk flash with Ken Grohe he's here from Viren and he's a worldwide vice president of customer ops Ken welcome to the cube thank you for a long time watcher of item appreciate that yeah so you're enough obviously smoking hot space we've been talking about in a flash all week you saw the announcements of you know V sand from from VMware that's you know great news for you guys and just you know give us the update on on Viren and you guys have you know really you know we know Mike so I'm Mike come on all of a sudden things started happening and did the deal with Seagate so what's what's the latest well the crux is numbers numbers speak more than anything so I'm pleased to see that our company's growing 300 this year which is a huge change and I realized flashes everything if you walk the floor right now and a lot of vibe I think about 23,000 people across the show I think most almost 80% exhibitors are all around flash so the good news about buried in though is we're really beginning to invest we started generally availability of our flash max connect software as of April so there's a lot of talk about creating a flash platform but really we're really walking the walk now by having the practive ailable having our high availability software available having our shareability software so it's not just selling flash for the performance aspects Dave it's really building and creating and leading a flash platform transformation and that's where we're gonna get through I think you've talked about prior questions about how do we get it to the enterprise space so the web scale I think we all know is all PCI flash based but how do we get to the brick-and-mortar enterprise space and I think the familiarity of getting to a platform that looks like a sand it feels like a sand and as the data services of a sand will albeit with the respect of the performance at microseconds that flash and only PCI Flash can provide from Vera Dhin I think that's how you get to enterprise accounts that everyone's like to see yeah I mean when you talk to people in the labs they they tout your product as you know one of the best if not the best out there but so that that flash transformation that's largely software lead absolutely so talk about that a little bit well it has to be software led because at some point you basically if you one of the troubles we have going through is do you want to buy a flash array and some of the in users might say where's PCI flash makes more sense where it does make more sense is your heritage behind it if you want to get close to the apt and you want to be closer to the actual performance behind it you want to get that performance but you also want the familiarity so you can go back to the IT director of the santa administrator and have the same type of data services or high availability that you might be accustomed to so that kind of bridges the gap between the person who's representing or maybe being the database administrator or maybe the application owner or actually the people they're administrating thus and so i mentioned the word transformation because i just didn't talk about how we're transforming the data center with flash and getting a greener i talked about how the people who manage the storage how they need to be professionally transformed I liken it to of we were in the business for a while I liken it to back when the first sands were sold people were putting raid storage out there but it wasn't until the transformation happened to sand and that IT professionals actually had to decide how you can have networking and actually have that build to everybody that transformation is happening today but would flash the building blocks PCI flash our company is uniquely equipped to actually bring out for lack of a better word of Veritas like what they do on the sand basis but actually have the high ability software the share building software actually in place so people can have a comfort and familiarity with the actual San in place ever have the speed as far as PCI flash can talk about the dynamic in the marketplace I'll see variants Lisa I always thought telling entrepreneurs this you get in the market is you're an entrepreneur you build a company you got to get on the field you can't score a touchdown or hit a homerun if you're not swinging at the plate or being on the field you can't really do anything from the stance you guys hit the flash thermal growth like all of a sudden the market was just realized spun in your direction your technology right there you're right with a puck came to you as they say in Wayne Gretzky analogy you guys were where the puffy you skated to where the puck was coming what is it about Bearden that makes it today really hot and you guys are growing get good growth sure 3% growth what's that 300% growth reason why the customers are buying tell share it the audience up there what three reitman what it is thanks for the questions I appreciate and thanks for acknowledging our growth and I shout out to our founders Kumar and Vijay who started this company seven years ago and then basically moved and worked it from nor flash and the appliance over to PCI flash two years ago but the reason for the growth is really threefold first off if you're an only M you really resonate with the fact that you've got unconditional performance at the higher you beat up this card the more there is an OEM would actually perform better for their applications and that that's why we're becoming a choice given the flash marketplace it's out there so performance number one o on condition performance if you go to our website that's our tag line I'm provision performance however you mentioned bring Wayne Gretzky on where the puck is going to where the pucks going to and I think you will you'll see our tagline kind of move towards is more of a leading the flash platform transformation so I mean by that it's it's the integrations Dave you mentioned before with high availability with shareability with caching software at the kernel level actually after the actual design for flash having them available so you actually can make that transition so no longer you clinging on to the stand tree you move into the performance of actual flash so that helps in the end user and what I've kind of done since I moved over in May is build what I think is a pretty good than using Salesforce and September 10th we'll talk about a partner kitty will be building as well but if you get the end user that creates the demand we're bringing on more more OMS I mention this card before you got om om and use direct sales in direct indirect indirect will be announced a separate tenth we are doing okay there are some of you big customers that's a big oh yes so if you don't extreme super flash that's a goob EMC is doing it yeah so and then um seagate of course x8 their product were very happy to be one of the providers of them as an OEM but over 50% of our sales to date have been to the direct end users that's where a big part of a business and that's that's where it really resonates people if you look I think Pat's first slide was he talked about how the applications going from first to second to third it's all consumer based it's all I carry an iPhone 5 F where I go when I I try to work at that type of real time speed with that type of transition to consumer eyes type applications you need a third generation type you know building blocks and that would be PCI flash my garden so I wonder if we could unpack a little bit more how you guys differentiate John I've been talking all week you know just that Jerry on from Kray lock just talking about the nightmare he really thought I and yeah but of course the other flipside of that is people saying it she's like the Winchester just drives to the 1980s you had 80 companies and and you know can the market sustain them also so how do you guys differentiate from all the here we always say extract the signal from the noise how do you differentiate from the other players out there well first off for the people who know the business the people that buy in by the pallet fall let's call it the scale that accounts the people they're leading us their new you've probably name the names before those customers the flash innovators they're buying pervasive flash they're the people who enjoy using the customer using actual product itself because it's got the highest high-end performance so unconditional performance you don't have the outliers the more you hit it with a high thread rights the high red thread reads that's where we really shine so thanks for noticing that as far as the customer base I mean the ability to have a vkn product with a right back no one else had well one of two players that have that as far as the VHA software its uniquely positioned so you have the same familiar out there and then every time they give an end-user presentation for my Salesforce when you see the V sharing capability as far as software that's truly unique Dave in the market talk about that V cashing with the right back I think you said that's unique so describe what that is and what makes it so hard well the reason why it's hard is you've got to have it so it conforms the existing systems you have to have in place so that the actual methodology in place as far as the applications and the accounts are you used to having different situations where you have the the same familiarity the same data services you have in place with right back you have different choices you have right through you have right around a write back cache and the fact that we've been in the flashing business you mentioned it acknowledged the newer appliance with our founders that you know this is this is knowing our first first attempt in the flash marketplace we've been in the biz five years before we went to PCI flash we can do the hard business that we can do the different choices for customers whether it be right back right through a right around and supposed to be caching but the truth is when we go in and user sales calls they always resonate around shareability they like the fact that you can put this as a 2.2 terabyte card they like they can share some of the namespaces and we convey shares across the different so you actually have a shared pool of these spaces around the different pool of flash I think earlier today I know Carl mentioned it I know Pat mentioned yesterday that's truly unique for us the ability to share and access has cross more users but you had mentioned I think when the raid vendors were out there there was like 20-something raid vendors but then after the change to the San marketplace to get down to two or three I think you didn't see that type of change around flash as well there are five or six flash PCI Flash vendors I think we're gonna be one of the three or four that people built bet their business on because we have a familiarity of having that software and that's where our investments are Ken talk about something that's I'm always gonna stickler on like buzz words but and but it did some of these things matter high availability Madison unquestioned is a word that's like a punchline it's like cost of ownership it does it's relevant but I want to actually specifically what is change in the current marketplace around high availability high availability is a table stakes kind of deal for a lot of the infrastructure side I mean that's a goal where everyone wants high availability like freedom right so so but what is about high availability today well it's different than was a couple years I'll give a tangible example one of our best use cases with the VHA software that you just mentioned as well as Oracle RAC some of our customers want the demands of Oracle RAC and the bridges the way that that can seamlessly work in their environment and to be blunt with you you get the speed of PCI flash but the affordability of putting you know a few cards in your environment and have that be able to do it but you have the blessing and the endorsement of actually having a rack environment have it out there so that's the way I view high availability at the highest levels five nine step availability where the customers could depend upon it and that's something you got to pitch a lot with your clients all day that's that's probably a second most proficient servers and my availability kind of go hand in hand I mean well sometimes they don't I mean people don't have availably they don't go down they're not performing so it's kind of like a implied benefit yeah John it's its database it's we're doing great in the e-tailing marketplace so I think the bricks and mortar type companies that are putting a front end that looks amazing like Google or amazing like Amazon amazing like Facebook but there's still the large retailers you might go shop on a weekend with so some the people at the show are talking about two major themes we're hearing follow the applications have a patient-centric infrastructure and enabling infrastructure that's going to be available to enable the apps to basically run DevOps and or create infrastructure so so what are you guys doing let's talk what's the innovation strategy around the around the enable in the middle of the stack because VMworld VMware can't get to the top of the stack and innovate until they fix the middle of the stack which is performance availability but enabling apps flash seems to really sit beautifully for the apps it's like a memory tier it's not also you can put if a disk so what are you guys doing in that area what can you talk about photos whatever we can do to make it seamless so people enjoy using the emotion what we can do to enjoy so that seamless for B motion I mentioned Oracle RAC before one thing I'd like to do is in my in my past we enjoyed seeing VM win I think Pat went through the slides before where VMware has get to a point there's more virtual servers in place than physical servers I think what three four years ago it went about 50 percent Moritz Zion okay thank you so what we need to do in the value we provide to our OEM partners and our end users that last twenty five percent so even the most proficient virtualized customer out there they need that lasting hooda to get their Tier one critical applications fully virtualized and it gets one of the mantas that know Carlos talk with us pat was talking about this flash technology is gets the mission-critical applications so they can be virtualized as well because I think this whole robust environment here twenty two thousand people would benefit if it was a hundred percent versus a final question for you we were up on time here can did you guys I've got great growth what's next what's around the corner can you just give us a peek around the corner for you guys you mentioned messaging some some new messaging that might be come around but what else is what's gonna be new for you guys well thank you for acknowledging so it's leading the flash platform transformation September 10th to see a big announcement of our channel ecosystem I appreciate that you will see denser cards but more importantly we're investing all we can in our saw where we want to lead that flash platformer transformation you will see future releases about different availability as far as card management and other sophisticated ways so we can make it seamless as you're used to running your Sam but for a flash network flash network so having that fabric in place and again work its addicting work in microseconds the fact that the product in bring in 50 microseconds versus a familiarity we used to have around four to ten milliseconds people gonna like me post into the applications consumer side and it's exciting time for us for the growth potential new customers that might not know Veera didn't explain to them real quick we'll give you the final word of the segment why you've helped other customers that might be like them and what should they know about Bearden we'll wrap it up okay great on your third generation applications you might out there a sequel a new database that might be in place there it is exactly your choice to put out there it will give the speed you need that's out there in the familiarity of actually having the data services around our software flash math connect if you have an existing second-generation application that you'd like to get end-of-life or a little more kick out of it on a midlife kicker whether it be Oracle s ap we even have a huge use case and one of the largest companies in China just put in through an exchange environment that's a great use case as well so today's performance next generation tech performance but familiarity of data services that you've been around for 15 20 years and that's why I think we're leading the flash on the transformation so thank you Ken that's awesome flash as hot as I always tell Dave and I was talking about it under the hood is the engine of innovation the apps are what's driving the car all the instrumentation is there with Big Data and flash is a big part of it congratulations new sets and watch mirrored in we're gonna be watching you guys be written inside the cube this is Jon and Dave here we'll be right back with our next guest after this short break