>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin learn Dubois joins me next VP of product management at Dell technologies. Laura, welcome back to the program. >>Yeah. Thank you so much, Lisa. It's just fantastic to be here and talking about data protection. Um, you know, now that we're coming out of COVID, it's just wonderful to be here. Thank you so much. >>Isn't it so refreshing. So you're going to provide some updates on Dell's data protection software, some of the innovation, how you're working with customers and prospects on that. So let's go ahead and dig right in. Let's talk about some of the innovation and the enhancements that Dell is making to its data protection suite of software, and also how customers are influencing that. >>Yeah, so it's a great question, Lisa and you're right. We have driven a lot of innovation and enhancements in our data protection suite. And let me just level set a second. So data protection suite, you know, is a solution that is deployed by really tens of thousands of customers. And we continue to innovate and enhance that data protection suite data protection suite is comprised primarily of three main data protection, software capabilities, so longstanding capabilities and customer adoption of Avamar, which continues to be a central capability on our portfolio. The second one is networker. Um, so networker is also an enterprise grade, highly scalable and performance data protection solution. And then a couple of years ago, um, we launched a new data protection capability called power protect data manager. So all three of these capabilities were really the foundation of our data protection suite. And as I said, you know, enterprises around the world rely on these three capable sets of capabilities to protect their data, regardless of wherever it resides. And, um, it's really central now more than ever in the face of, you know, increasing security, um, you know, risks and compliance and the need to be able to have an always kind of available environment that customers rely on the capabilities and data protection suite to really make sure their enterprises resilient. Absolutely. >>And make sure that that data is recoverable. If anything happens, you mentioned cybersecurity. We'll get into that in a second, but so thousands of Avamar and networker customers, what are some of the key workloads and data that these customers are protecting with these technologies? >>Yeah, I mean, so actually tens of thousands, tens of thousands, tens of thousands of customers that rely on data protection suite and you know, it really, I think the, the, the strength and advantage of our portfolio is its breadth, breadth and Kip terms with client operating environments in terms of applications and databases in terms of workloads and, and, and specifically use cases. So, I mean, the breadth that we offer is unparalleled. Um, you know, pretty much when a windows, Linux, um, open VMs, NetWare, you know, kind of, you know, going back in time, a long tail of kind of operating environments and then databases, right? So everything from SQL and Oracle and Sybase and DB two to new types of databases, like, you know, the no SQL or, or content store and, and, and, um, key value store types of types of, um, no SQL, uh, schema was if you will. >>And so, and then lastly is the, the use cases, right? So being able to protect data, whether that be data that's in a data center, out in remote or branch locations or data that's out in the cloud, right. And of course, create increasingly customers are placing their data, um, in a variety of locations, on edge, on core data centers and in cloud environments. And, um, we actually have over, uh, six exabytes of capacity on our management, across public cloud environments. So, um, pretty extensive deployment of our, our data protection suite in public clouds, you know, the leading hyperscalers, um, uh, cloud environments on premises as well. >>So let's talk a little bit about the customer influence because obviously there's a very cooperative relationship that Dell has with its customers that help you achieve things. Like, for example, I saw that according to IDC, Dell technologies is number one and data protection, appliances, and software leader in the Gartner magic quadrant for data center, backup and recovery for over 20 years. Now, talk to us a little bit more about that symbiotic customer Dell. >>Yeah. So it's a great question. We see our customers and strategic partners, and we really want to understand their business, their requirements. We engage on a quarterly basis with customers and partners in, um, it advisory councils. And then of course, we are always engaging with customers outside of those cycles on a kind of a one-on-one basis. And so we're really driving the innovation and the backlogs and the roadmap for data protection suite based upon customer feedback and, um, uh, approximately 79% of the fortune 100 customers, our Dell data, Dell technologies, data protection customers. Now that's not to say that that's our only customer base. We have customers in commercial accounts in mid-market and in, uh, federal agencies. Um, but you know, we take our customer relationships really, really seriously, and we engage with them, uh, on a regular basis, both in a group forum to provide feedback as well as in a one-on-one basis. And we're building our roadmaps and our, and our, our, our product releases based on feedback from customers. And, um, again, you know, large customer base that we take very seriously, >>Right to the customer listening obviously is critical for Dell. So you talked a little bit about what that cycle looks like in terms of quarterly meetings, and then those individual meetings, what are some of the enhancements and advancements that customers have actually influenced? >>Yeah, so we, I mean, we, I think, um, continuing, continuing to provide simplicity and ease of use is a key, uh, element of our portfolio and our in our strategy, right? So continuing to modernize and update the software in terms of workflows, in terms of, uh, know common experiences, also increasingly customers want to automate their data protection process. So really taking an API first strategy for how we deliver capabilities to customers, you know, continuing to expand our client, um, database hypervisor environments, continue to extend out our cloud support. Um, you know, things like, um, protection of cloud, native applications with, uh, increasingly customers containerizing, um, and building scale-out applications. We want to be able to protect Kubernetes environment. So that's kind of an area of focus for us. Um, another area of focus for us is going deeper with our key strategic partners, you know, whether that'd be a, a cloud partner, a hypervisor partner, and then of course, customers, in fact, one of the top three things that we consistently hear from, from these councils that we do is the, the criticality of security security and or data protection environment, but the criticality of being able to be resilient from, and, and in the event of a, of a cyber attack to be able to resilient recover from that cyber attack. >>So that is an area where we continue to make, uh, innovations and investments, uh, in the data protection suite. >>And that's so critical. One of the things that we saw in the last year, 15 months, plus Laura, is this massive rise in ransomware. It's now a household word, the colonial pipeline, for example, that meat plan, it's, it's now many businesses knowing it's not if we get attacked, but it's when, so having the ability to be resilient and recover that data is table stakes for, I imagine a business in any organization, I want to understand a little bit more. So you talked about tens of thousands of customers using Avamar and networker. So now they have the capability of also expanding and using more of, of the suite. Talk to me a little bit about that. >>Yeah, so, I mean, I think it starts with the customer environment and what workloads and use cases they have and because of the breadth of capabilities and Dave, the data protection suite, you know, we really optimize the solution based upon their needs, right? So if they have, um, a large portfolio of, of applications that they need to maintain, but they're also building applications or, or, or systems for the future, we have S you know, solution there. If they have a single hypervisor strategy or a multiple hypervisor strategy, we have a, you know, a strategy there, if they have data that's on premise and across a range of public clouds, you know, one large customer we have as a, you know, kind of, uh, uh, uh, three-plus one strategy around cloud. So there's, they, there's, they're, they're leveraging, you know, three different, um, uh, public cloud, I as environments. And then they're also have their on-premise cloud environment. So, you know, we, it really starts with the customer workload and the data and where it lives, whether that's be out in an edge location in a row remote or branch office on an end point somewhere, they need to protect whether it be in a core data center or multiple data centers, or rather that be in the cloud. Um, you know, that's how we think about optimizing the solution for the, for the customers. >>Curious if you can give me any examples of customers, maybe by industry that were, have been with Dell for a long time with Avamar networker and how they've expanded, being able to pick, as you say, as their, or as their environment grows. And we've got, um, now as this blur, right, it's now work from anywhere data centers, edge. Talk to me about some customers, examples that you think really articulate the value of what Dell is doing. >>Yeah, so, I mean, I think one customer, um, in the financial services sector comes to mind. They have a large, uh, um, amount of unstructured data that they need to protect, you know, petabytes, petabytes, and petabytes of data they need to protect. And so I think that's one customer that comes to mind is someone we've been with for a long time, uh, you know, been partnering with for a long time, >>A lot of, of, um, flexibility and choice for Avamar, a networker customers, as things change the world continues to pivot. And we know it's absolutely essential to be able to recover that data. You mentioned 70, I think 79% of the fortune 100 are using, uh, Dell technologies for data protection software. That's probably something that's only going to continue to grow. Um, lots of stuff coming up, as you mentioned, but what are some of the things that you're personally excited about as the world starts to open up and you get to actually go out and engage with customers >>I'm in just looking forward to like in-person meetings, right? I mean, I just love going and trying to understand what problems the customers are trying to solve and how we can help address those. Um, I think, you know, what I see customers sort of struggling with is how do they kind of manage their current environment while they're building for the future? Um, so there's a lot of interest in questions around, you know, the, how do they protect some of these new types of workloads, whether they're deployed on premise or in the public cloud. Um, so that continues to be an area where we, you know, we continue to engage with customers. Um, I'm also really personally excited about, you know, the extensions that we're doing and our cyber recovery capabilities socio can expect to hear more about some of those in the, in the next 12 months, because we're really, um, you know, seeing that as a key, uh, driver to kind of increase, um, you know, increased policies around and, and implementations around data protection, uh, is, is because of these, you know, the, the need to be able to re be resilient from cyber attacks. >>Um, I would say we're also doing some very interesting integrations with VMware. Um, we're going to have some first and only announcements around VMware and managing protection for VMware, uh, you know, VM environments. So we can look forward to hearing more about that. And, you know, we have customers that are deployed our data protection solutions at scale. Um, you know, one customer has 150,000 clients they're protecting with our data protection offerings. Wow. 150,000. And so, you know, we're continuing to improve the, and enhance the products to meet those kinds of scale requirements. And, um, you know, I'm excited by the fact that, that we've had this long standing relationship with this one particular customer and, you know, continue to, to help and, and flow an edge where, where their needs go. >>And that's something that even a great job of talking about is just not just a longstanding relationships, but really that dedication that Dell has to innovating with its customers. Laura, thank you for sharing some of the updates of what's new, what you're continuing to do with customers and what you're looking forward to in the future. It sounds like we might hear some news around the VMworld timeframe. Yes. All right, Laura, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate your time. >>It's been great to be here. Thanks so much. >>Excellent for Laura Dwight and Lisa Martin, you're watching this cube conversation.

(gentle music) >> Welcome to this Cube Conversation, I'm Lisa Martin. Laura Dubois joins me next, VP of product management at Dell Technologies, Laura, welcome back to the program. >> Yeah, thank you so much Lisa, it's just fantastic to be here and talking about data protection now that we're coming out of COVID, it's just wonderful to be here, thank you so much. >> Isn't it so refreshing. So, you're going to provide some updates on Dell's data protection software, some of the innovation, how you're working with customers and prospects. So let's go ahead and dig right in, let's talk about some of the innovation and the enhancements that Dell is making to its data protection suite of software and also how customers are influencing that. >> Yeah, so it's a great question Lisa and you're right. We have driven a lot of innovation and enhancements in our data protection suite. And let me just level a second. So data protection suite, is a solution that is deployed by really tens of thousands of customers. And we continue to innovate and enhance that data protection suite. Data protection suite is comprised primarily of three main data protection software capabilities. So, longstanding capabilities and customer adoption of Avamar, which continues to be a central capability on our portfolio. The second one is Networker. So Networker is also an enterprise grade, highly scalable and performance data protection solution. And then a couple of years ago, we launched a new data protection capability called power protect data manager. So, all three of these capabilities, really the foundation of our data protection suite. And as I said, enterprises around the world rely on these three sets of capabilities to protect their data, regardless of wherever it resides. And it's really central now more than ever in the face of increasing security, risks and compliance and the need to be able to have an always kind of available environment that customers rely on the capabilities and data protection suite to really make sure their enterprises resilient. >> Absolutely, and make sure that that data is recoverable if anything happens, you mentioned cybersecurity. We'll get into that in a second. But so thousands of Avamar and Networker customers, what are some of the key workloads and data that these customers are protecting with these technologies? >> Yeah, I mean, so, actually tens of thousands. >> Tens of thousands. >> Tens of thousands of customers that rely on data protection suite. And it really, I think the strength and advantage of our portfolio is its breadth, breadth in terms of client operating environments, in terms of applications and databases, in terms of workloads and specifically use cases. So I mean, the breadth that we offer is unparalleled, pretty much whether Windows, Linux, OpenVMS, NetWare, kind of going back in time a long tail of kind of operating environments and then databases, right. So everything from SQL and Oracle and Sybase and DB2 to new types of databases, like the NoSQL or content store and key value store types of NoSQL schemas, if you will. And so, and then lastly is the word they use cases, right? So being able to protect data, whether that be data that's in a data center, out in remote or branch locations or data that's out in the cloud, right. And of course, increasingly customers are placing their data in a variety of locations; on Edge, on core data centers and in cloud environments. And we actually have over six exabytes of capacity under management, across public cloud environments. So pretty extensive deployment of our data protection suite in public clouds, you know, the leading hyperscalers, cloud environments and premises as well. >> So let's talk a little bit about the customer influence 'cause obviously there's a very cooperative relationship that Dell has with its customers that help you achieve things. Like, for example, I saw that according to IDC, Dell Technologies is number one in data protection, appliances, and software, leader in the Gartner Magic Quadrant for data center backup and recovery for over 20 years now. Talk to us a little bit more about that symbiotic customer, Dell relationship. >> Yeah, so it's a great question. We see our customers as strategic partners, and we really want to understand their business, their requirements. We engage on a quarterly basis with customers and partners in advisory councils. And then of course, we are always engaging with customers outside of those cycles on a kind of a one-on-one basis. And so we are really driving the innovation and the backlogs and the roadmap for data protection suite based upon customer feedback. And approximately 79% of the fortune 100 customers, our Dell data, Dell Technologies data protection customers. Now that's not to say that that's our only customer base. We have customers in commercial accounts, in mid-market in federal agencies, but, you know, we take our customer relationships really, really seriously, and we engage with them on a regular basis, both in a group forum to provide feedback as well as in a one-on-one basis. And we're building our roadmaps and our product release is based on feedback from customers, and again, know large customer base that we take very seriously. >> Right to the customer listening obviously it is critical for Dell. So you talked a little bit about what that cycle looks like in terms of quarterly meetings and then those individual meetings. What are some of the enhancements and advancements that customers have actually influenced? >> Yeah, so we, I mean, we, I think continuing to provide simplicity and ease of use is a key element of our portfolio and our strategy, right? So continuing to modernize and update the software in terms of workflows, in terms of, you know, common experiences also increasingly customers want to automate their data protection process. So really taking an API-first strategy for how we deliver capabilities to customers, continuing to expand our client database, hypervisor environments, continue to extend out our cloud support, you know, things like protection of cloud native applications with increasingly customers containerizing and building scale-out applications. We want to be able to protect Kubernetes environment. So that's kind of an area of focus for us. Another area of focus for us is going deeper with our key strategic partners, whether that'd be a cloud partner or a hypervisor partner. And then of course, customers, in fact, one of the top three things that we consistently hear from these councils that we do is the criticality of security, security and our data protection environment but the criticality of being able to be resilient from, and in the event of a cyber attack to be able to resilient recover from that cyber attack. So that is an area where we continue to make innovations and investments in the data protection suite as well. >> And that's so critical. One of the things that we saw in the last year, 15 months plus Laura, is this massive rise in ransomware. It's now a household word, the Colonial Pipeline for example, the meat packing plant, it's now many businesses knowing it's not, if we get attacked, but it's when. So having the ability to be resilient and recover that data is table stakes for, I imagine a business in any organization. I want to understand a little bit more. So you talked about tens of thousands of customers using Avamar and Networker. So now they have the capability of also expanding and using more of the suite. Talk to me a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so, I mean, I think it starts with the customer environment and what workloads and use cases they have. And because of the breadth of capabilities indeed the data protection suite, we really optimize the solution based upon their needs, right. So if they have a large portfolio of applications that they need to maintain but they're also building applications or systems for the future, we have a solution there. If they have a single hypervisor strategy or a multiple hypervisor strategy, we have a strategy there, if they have data that's on-premise and across a range of public clouds, one large customer we have as a, kind of three-plus one strategy around cloud. So they're leveraging three different public cloud, IS environments, and then they're also have their on-premise cloud environment. So, you know, we, it really starts with the customer workload and the data, and where it lives; whether that's be out in an Edge location in a remote or branch office, on an end point somewhere, they need to protect whether it be in a core data center or multiple data centers, or rather be in the cloud. That's how we think about optimizing the solution for the customers. >> Curious if you can give me any examples of customers maybe by industry that were, have been with Dell for a long time with Avamar and Networker for a long time and how they've expanded, being able to pick, as you say, as their, or as their environment grows and we've got, now this blur of right. It's now worked from anywhere, data centers, Edge. Talk to me about some customers examples that you think really articulate the value of what Dell is delivering. >> Yeah, so, I mean, I think one customer in the financial services sector comes to mind. They have a large amount of unstructured data that they need to protect, you know, petabytes, petabytes and petabytes of data they need to protect. And so I think that's one customer that comes to mind is someone we've been with for a long time, been partnering with for a long time. Another customer I mentioned in the, it was a kind of a three-letter software company that is a really strategic partner for us with on-premise, in the cloud. You know, healthcare is a big and important sector for Dell. We have integrations into kind of leading healthcare applications. So that's another big, whether they be a healthcare provider or a healthcare insurance company, and had a fourth example, but it's escaping my mind right now, but, I would say going back to the cyber discussion, I mean, one thing that we, where we see really customers looking for guidance from us around cyber recovery and cyber resilience is in what the, you know, of course president Biden just released this executive board on his mandate for ensuring that the federal agencies but also companies in the millisecond sector, sectors be able to ensure resilience from cyber attacks. So that's companies in financial services, that's companies in healthcare, energy, oil, and gas transportation, right. Obviously in companies and industries that are critical to our economy and our infrastructure. And so that has been an area where we've seen, recently in the last, I would say 12 months increased in engagement, you mentioned Colonial Pipeline, for example. So those are some high salient highlights I think of in terms of, you know, kind of key customers. But pretty much every sector. I mean, the U.S. government, all of the the agencies, whether they be civilian, or DOD or key kind of engagement partners of ours. >> Yeah, and as you said in the last year, what a year it's been. But really a business in every industry has got to be able to be resilient and recover when something happens. Can you talk a little bit about some of the specific enhancements that you guys have made to the suite? >> Yeah, sure. So, you know, we continue to enhance our hypervisor capabilities. So we continue to enhance not only the core VMware or hyperbaric capabilities but we continue to enhance some of the extensions or plugins that we have for those. So whether that be things like our VRealized plugin or a vCloud director plugin for say, VMware. So that's kind of a big focus for us. Continuing to enhance capabilities around leveraging the cloud for long-term retention. So that's another kind of enhancement area for us. But cloud in general is an ara where we continue to drive more and more enhancement. Improving performance in cloud environments for a variety of use cases, whether that be DR to the cloud, backup or replications of the cloud or backing up workloads that are already in the cloud. There's a key use cases for us, as well as the archive to cloud use cases. So there's just some examples or areas where we've driven enhancements and you can expect to see more, you know we have a six month release cadence for Avamar and Networker, and we continue with that momentum. And at the end of this month, we have the next major release of our data protection suite. And then six months later, we'll have the next update and so on and so forth. And we've been doing that actually for the last three to four years. This is a six month release cadence for data protection suite. We continue with that momentum. And like I said, simplicity and modernity, APIs and automation, extending our workloads and hypervisors and use cases. And then cloud is a big focusing area as well, as well as security and cyber resilience. >> Right, and so a lot of flexibility in choice for Avamar and Networker customers. As things change the world continues to pivot and we know it's absolutely essential to be able to recover that data. You mentioned 70, I think 79% of the Fortune 100 are using Dell technologies for data protection software. That's probably something that's only going to continue to grow. Lots of stuff coming up. As you mention, what are some of the things that you're personally excited about as the world starts to open up and you get to actually go out and engage with customers? >> I'm in just looking forward to like in-person meetings. I mean, I just loved going and trying to understand what problems the customers are trying to solve and how we can help address those. I think, you know, what I see customers sort of struggling with is how do they kind of manage their current environment while they're building for the future? So there's a lot of interest in questions around, how do they protect some of these new types of workloads, whether they're deployed on premise or in the public cloud. So that continues to be an area where we continue to engage with customers. I'm also really personally excited about the extensions that we're doing in our cyber recovery capabilities so as you can expect to hear more about some of those in the next 12 months, because we're really seeing that as a key driver to kind of increased policies around and implementations around data protection is because of these, you know, the needs to be able to be resilient from cyber attacks. I would say we're also doing some very interesting integrations with VMware. We're going to have some first and only announcements around VMware and managing protection for VMware, you know, VM environments. So you can look forward to hearing more about that. And we have customers that have deployed our data protection solutions at scale. One customer has 150,000 clients who they're protecting with our data protection offerings, 150,000. And so we're continuing to improve the, and enhance the products to meet those kinds of scale requirements. And I'm excited by the fact that we've had this long standing relationship with this one particular customer and continue to help in flowing up where their needs go. >> And that's something that even a great job of talking about is just not just a longstanding relationships but really that dedication that Dell has to innovating with its customers. Laura, thank you for sharing some of the updates of what's new, what you're continuing to do with customers, and what you're looking forward to in the future. It sounds like we might hear some news around the VMworld timeframe. >> Yes, I think so. >> All right, Laura, thank you so much for joining me today. Appreciate your time. >> Yeah, it's been great to be here. Thanks so much. >> Excellent from Laura Dubois and Lisa Martin, you're watching this Cube Conversation. (soft music)

>> From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the CUBE in ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Earlier these week, the U S department of justice, along with attorneys general from 11 States filed a long expected antitrust lawsuit, accusing Google of being a monopoly gatekeeper for the internet. The suit draws on section two of the Sherman antitrust act, which makes it illegal to monopolize trade or commerce. Of course, Google is going to fight the lawsuit, but in our view, the company has to make bigger moves to diversify its business and the answer we think lies in the cloud and at the edge. Hello everyone. This is Dave Vellante and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we want to do two things. First we're going to review a little bit of history, according to Dave Vollante of the monopolistic power in the computer industry. And then next, we're going to look into the latest ETR data. And we're going to make the case that Google's response to the DOJ suit should be to double or triple its focus on cloud and edge computing, which we think is a multi-trillion dollar opportunity. So let's start by looking at the history of monopolies in technology. We start with IBM. In 1969 the U S government filed an antitrust lawsuit against Big Blue. At the height of its power. IBM generated about 50% of the revenue and two thirds of the profits for the entire computer industry, think about that. IBM has monopoly on a relative basis, far exceeded that of the virtual Wintel monopoly that defined the 1990s. IBM had 90% of the mainframe market and controlled the protocols to a highly vertically integrated mainframe stack, comprising semiconductors, operating systems, tools, and compatible peripherals like terminal storage and printers. Now the government's lawsuit dragged on for 13 years before it was withdrawn in 1982, IBM at one point had 200 lawyers on the case and it really took a toll on IBM and to placate the government during this time and someone after IBM made concessions such as allowing mainframe plug compatible competitors to access its code, limiting the bundling of application software in fear of more government pressure. Now the biggest mistake IBM made when it came out of antitrust was holding on to its mainframe past. And we saw this in the way it tried to recover from the mistake of handing its monopoly over to Microsoft and Intel. The virtual monopoly. What it did was you may not remember this, but it had OS/2 and Windows and it said to Microsoft, we'll keep OS/2 you take Windows. And the mistake IBM was making with sticking to the PC could be vertically integrated, like the main frame. Now let's fast forward to Microsoft. Microsoft monopoly power was earned in the 1980s and carried into the 1990s. And in 1998 the DOJ filed the lawsuit against Microsoft alleging that the company was illegally thwarting competition, which I argued at the time was the case. Now, ironically, this is the same year that Google was started in a garage. And I'll come back to that in a minute. Now, in the early days of the PC, Microsoft they were not a dominant player in desktop software, you had Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect. You had this company called Harvard Presentation Graphics. These were discreet products that competed very effectively in the market. Now in 1987, Microsoft paid $14 million for PowerPoint. And then in 1990 launched Office, which bundled Spreadsheets, Word Processing, and presentations into a single suite. And it was priced far more attractively than the some of the alternative point products. Now in 1995, Microsoft launched Internet Explorer, and began bundling its browser into windows for free. Windows had a 90% market share. Netscape was the browser leader and a high flying tech company at the time. And the company's management who pooed Microsoft bundling of IE saying, they really weren't concerned because they were moving up the stack into business software, now they later changed that position after realizing the damage that Microsoft bundling would do to its business, but it was too late. So in similar moves of ineptness, Lotus refuse to support Windows at its launch. And instead it wrote software to support the (indistinct). A mini computer that you probably have never even heard of. Novell was a leader in networking software at the time. Anyone remember NetWare. So they responded to Microsoft's move to bundle network services into its operating systems by going on a disastrous buying spree they acquired WordPerfect, Quattro Pro, which was a Spreadsheet and a Unix OS to try to compete with Microsoft, but Microsoft turned the volume and kill them. Now the difference between Microsoft and IBM is that Microsoft didn't build PC hardware rather it partnered with Intel to create a virtual monopoly and the similarities between IBM and Microsoft, however, were that it fought the DOJ hard, Okay, of course. But it made similar mistakes to IBM by hugging on to its PC software legacy. Until the company finally pivoted to the cloud under the leadership of Satya Nadella, that brings us to Google. Google has a 90% share of the internet search market. There's that magic number again. Now IBM couldn't argue that consumers weren't hurt by its tactics. Cause they were IBM was gouging mainframe customers because it could on pricing. Microsoft on the other hand could argue that consumers were actually benefiting from lower prices. Google attorneys are doing what often happens in these cases. First they're arguing that the government's case is deeply flawed. Second, they're saying the government's actions will cause higher prices because they'll have to raise prices on mobile software and hardware, Hmm. Sounds like a little bit of a threat. And of course, it's making the case that many of its services are free. Now what's different from Microsoft is Microsoft was bundling IE, that was a product which was largely considered to be crap, when it first came out, it was inferior. But because of the convenience, most users didn't bother switching. Google on the other hand has a far superior search engine and earned its rightful place at the top by having a far better product than Yahoo or Excite or Infoseek or even Alta Vista, they all wanted to build portals versus having a clean user experience with some non-intrusive of ads on the side. Hmm boy, is that part changed, regardless? What's similar in this case with, as in the case with Microsoft is the DOJ is arguing that Google and Apple are teaming up with each other to dominate the market and create a monopoly. Estimates are that Google pays Apple between eight and $11 billion annually to have its search engine embedded like a tick into Safari and Siri. That's about one third of Google's profits go into Apple. And it's obviously worth it because according to the government's lawsuit, Apple originated search accounts for 50% of Google search volume, that's incredible. Now, does the government have a case here? I don't know. I'm not qualified to give a firm opinion on this and I haven't done enough research yet, but I will say this, even in the case of IBM where the DOJ eventually dropped the lawsuit, if the U S government wants to get you, they usually take more than a pound of flesh, but the DOJ did not suggest any remedies. And the Sherman act is open to wide interpretation so we'll see. What I am suggesting is that Google should not hang too tightly on to it's search and advertising past. Yes, Google gives us amazing free services, but it has every incentive to appropriate our data. And there are innovators out there right now, trying to develop answers to that problem, where the use of blockchain and other technologies can give power back to us users. So if I'm arguing that Google shouldn't like the other great tech monopolies, hang its hat too tightly on the past, what should Google do? Well, the answer is obvious, isn't it? It's cloud and edge computing. Now let me first say that Google understandably promotes G Suite quite heavily as part of its cloud computing story, I get that. But it's time to move on and aggressively push into the areas that matters in cloud core infrastructure, database, machine intelligence containers and of course the edge. Not to say that Google isn't doing this, but there are areas of greatest growth potential that they should focus on. And the ETR data shows it. But let me start with one of our favorite graphics, which shows the breakdown of survey respondents used to derive net score. Net score remembers ETR's quarterly measurement of spending velocity. And here we show the breakdown for Google cloud. The lime green is new adoptions. The forest green is the percentage of customers increasing spending more than 5%. The gray is flat and the pinkish is decreased by 6% or more. And the bright red is we're replacing or swapping out the platform. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score at 43%, which is not off the charts, but it's pretty good. And compares quite favorably to most companies, but not so favorite with AWS, which is at 51% and Microsoft which is at 49%, both AWS and Microsoft red scores are in the single digits. Whereas Google's is at 10%, look all three are down since January, thanks to COVID, but AWS and Microsoft are much larger than Google. And we'd like to see stronger across the board scores from Google. But there's good news in the numbers for Google. Take a look at this chart. It's a breakdown of Google's net scores over three survey snapshots. Now we skip January in this view and we do that to provide a year of a year context for October. But look at the all important database category. We've been watching this very closely, particularly with the snowflake momentum because big query generally is considered the other true cloud native database. And we have a lot of respect for what Google is doing in this area. Look at the areas of strength highlighted in the green. You've got machine intelligence where Google is a leader AI you've got containers. Kubernetes was an open source gift to the industry, and linchpin of Google's cloud and multi-cloud strategy. Google cloud is strong overall. We were surprised to see some deceleration in Google cloud functions at 51% net scores to be on honest with you, because if you look at AWS Lambda and Microsoft Azure functions, they're showing net scores in the mid to high 60s. But we're still elevated for Google. Now. I'm not that worried about steep declines, and Apogee and Looker because after an acquisitions things kind of get spread out around the ETR taxonomy so don't be too concerned about that. But as I said earlier, G Suite may just not that compelling relative to the opportunity in other areas. Now I won't show the data, but Google cloud is showing good momentum across almost all interest industries and sectors with the exception of consulting and small business, which is understandable, but notable deceleration in healthcare, which is a bit of a concern. Now I want to share some customer anecdotes about Google. These comments come from an ETR Venn round table. The first comment comes from an architect who says that "it's an advantage that Google is "not entrenched in the enterprise." Hmm. I'm not sure I agree with that, but anyway, I do take stock in what this person is saying about Microsoft trying to lure people away from AWS. And this person is right that Google essentially is exposed its internal cloud to the world and has ways to go, which is why I don't agree with the first statement. I think Google still has to figure out the enterprise. Now the second comment here underscores a point that we made earlier about big query customers really like the out of the box machine learning capabilities, it's quite compelling. Okay. Let's look at some of the data that we shared previously, we'll update this chart once the company's all report earnings, but here's our most recent take on the big three cloud vendors market performance. The key point here is that our data and the ETR data reflects Google's commentary in its earning statements. And the GCP is growing much faster than its overall cloud business, which includes things that are not apples to apples with AWS the same thing is true with Azure. Remember AWS is the only company that provides clear data on its cloud business. Whereas the others will make comments, but not share the data explicitly. So these are estimates based on those comments. And we also use, as I say, the ETR survey data and our own intelligence. Now, as one of the practitioners said, Google has a long ways to go as buddy an eighth of the size of AWS and about a fifth of the size of Azure. And although it's growing faster at this size, we feel that its growth should be even higher, but COVID is clear a factor here so we have to take that into consideration. Now I want to close by coming back to antitrust. Google spends a lot on R&D, these are quick estimates but let me give you some context. Google shells out about $26 billion annually on research and development. That's about 16% of revenue. Apple spends less about 16 billion, which is about 6% of revenue, Amazon 23 billion about 8% of the top line, Microsoft 19 billion or 13% of revenue and Facebook 14 billion or 20% of revenue, wow. So Google for sure spends on innovation. And I'm not even including CapEx in any of these numbers and the hype guys as you know, spend tons on CapEx building data centers. So I'm not saying Google cheaping out, they're not. And I got plenty of cash in there balance sheet. They got to run 120 billion. So I can't criticize they're roughly $9 billion in stock buybacks the way I often point fingers at what I consider IBM's overly wall street friendly use of cash, but I will say this and it was Jeff Hammerbacher, who I spoke with on the Cube in the early part of last decade at a dupe world, who said "the best minds of my generation are spending there time, "trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads." And frankly, that's where much of Google's R&D budget goes. And again, I'm not saying Google doesn't spend on cloud computing. It does, but I'm going to make a prediction. The post cookie apocalypse is coming soon, it may be here. iOS 14 makes you opt in to find out everything about you. This is why it's such a threat to Google. The days when Google was able to be the keeper of all of our data and to house it and to do whatever it likes with that data that ended with GDPR. And that was just the beginning of the end. This decade is going to see massive changes in public policy that will directly affect Google and other consumer facing technology companies. So my premise is that Google needs to step up its game and enterprise cloud and the edge much more than it's doing today. And I like what Thomas Kurian is doing, but Google's undervalued relative to some of the other big tech names. And I think it should tell wall street that our future is in enterprise cloud and edge computing. And we're going to take a hit to our profitability and go big in those areas. And I would suggest a few things, first ramp up R&D spending and acquisitions even more. Go on a mission to create cloud native fabric across all on-prem and the edge multicloud. Yes, I know this is your strategy, but step it up even more forget satisfying investors. You're getting dinged in the market anyway. So now's the time the moon wall street and attack the opportunity unless you don't see it, but it's staring you right in the face. Second, get way more cozy with the enterprise players that are scared to death of the cloud generally. And they're afraid of AWS in particular, spend the cash and go way, way deeper with the big tech players who have built the past IBM, Dell, HPE, Cisco, Oracle, SAP, and all the others. Those companies that have the go to market shops to help you win the day in enterprise cloud. Now, I know you partner with these companies already, but partner deeper identify game-changing innovations that you can co-create with these companies and fund it with your cash hoard. I'm essentially saying, do what you do with Apple. And instead of sucking up all our data and getting us to click on ads, solve really deep problems in the enterprise and the edge. It's all about actually building an on-prem to cloud across cloud, to the edge fabric and really making that a unified experience. And there's a data angle too, which I'll talk about now, the data collection methods that you've used on consumers, it's incredibly powerful if applied responsibly and correctly for IOT and edge computing. And I don't mean to trivialize the complexity at the edge. There really isn't one edge it's Telcos and factories and banks and cars. And I know you're in all these places Google because of Android, but there's a new wave of data coming from machines and cars. And it's going to dwarf people's clicks and believe me, Tesla wants to own its own data and Google needs to put forth a strategy that's a win-win. And so far you haven't done that because your head is an advertising. Get your heads out of your ads and cut partners in on the deal. Next, double down on your open source commitment. Kubernetes showed the power that you have in the industry. Ecosystems are going to be the linchpin of innovation over the next decade and transcend products and platforms use your money, your technology, and your position in the marketplace to create the next generation of technology leveraging the power of the ecosystem. Now I know Google is going to say, we agree, this is exactly what we're doing, but I'm skeptical. Now I think you see either the cloud is a tiny little piece of your business. You have to do with Satya Nadella did and completely pivot to the new opportunity, make cloud and the edge your mission bite the bullet with wall street and go dominate a multi-trillion dollar industry. Okay, well there you have it. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts, so please subscribe wherever you listen. I publish weekly on Wikibond.com and Siliconangle.com and I post on LinkedIn each week as well. So please comment or DM me @DVollante, or you can email me @David.Vollante @Siliconangle.com. And don't forget to check out etr.plus that's where all the survey action is. This is Dave Vollante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody be well. And we'll see you next. (upbeat instrumental)

>> Live from San Diego California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're at the end of three days of wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman and my co-host for this week has been John Troyer, and we figured no better way to cap our coverage than bring on a CUBE alumni who has likely educated more people about containers and Kubernetes, you know, may be second only to the CNCF. So, Nigel Poulton now the head of content at msb.com. Nigel, pleasure to see you and thanks for coming back on the program. >> Honestly gents, the pleasure is all mine, as always. >> All right, so Nigel, first of all I'd love to get your just gestalt of the week. You know, take away, what's the energy. You know, how is was this community doing. >> Yeah, so it's the end of the week and my brain is a mixture of fried and about to explode, okay. Which i think is a good thing. That's what you want at the end of a conference, right. But I think if we can dial it back to the first day at that opening keynote, something that really grabbed me at the time and has been sort of a theme for me throughout the conference, is when they asked, can you raise your hand if this is your first KubeCon, and it's a room of 8,000 people, and I don't have the data at hand right, but I'm sat there, I've got my brother on this side, it's his first ever KubeCon, and he kind of goes like this, and then he realizes that nearly everybody around us has got their hands up, so he's kind of like, whoa yeah, I feel like I'm on the in the in-crowd now. And I think from the people that I've spoken to it seems to be that the community is maturing, the conference or the event itself is maturing, and that starts to bring in kind of a different crowd, and a new crowd. People that are not necessarily building Kubernetes or building projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, but looking to bring it into their organizations to run their own applications. >> Yeah, no absolutely. You know, the rough number I heard was somewhere two-thirds to three-quarters of that room were new. >> Nigel: I can believe that. >> 12,000 here in attendance, right. There were 8,000 here last year. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> You think about the, you know, somebody, oh I sent somebody this year, I sent somebody different the next year, and all the new people. So, you know, Nigel, luckily that keeps you busy, because there is something I've said for a long, long, time is there is always a need for that introductory and then how do I get started and how do I get into here, and luckily the the ecosystem and all the projects and everything, somebody could pick that up in five or 10 minutes if they'd just put their mind to it, right. >> So I say this a lot of the time, that I feel like we live in the Golden Age of being able to take hold of your own career and learn a technology and make the best of what's available for you. Now we don't live in the day where we used, you know, to learn something new you would have to buy infrastructure. I mean even to learn Windows back in the day, or NetWare or Linux you'd need a couple of dusty old PCs in the corner of your office or your bedroom or something, and it was hard. Whereas now with cloud, with video training, with all the hands-on labs and stuff that are out there, with all of the sessions that you get at events like this, if you're interested in pushing your career forward, not only have you not got an excuse not to do it anymore, but the opportunities are just amazing, right. I feel like we live in such an, I feel like we're living in a exciting time for tech. >> Well Nigel, you do books, said you've done training courses, you have your platform of like a lab platform, msb.com. And one of the challenges in this space is that it is moving so fast, right. Yes, you have, anything's at your fingertips, but. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Kubernetes changes every every quarter. Here at the show, both scale of people's deployments, but also scale of the probably number of projects, and everything has a different name. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> So, how are you, what should people be looking for? How are you changing your curriculum? What are you what are you adding to it, what are you replicating? >> Yeah, so that's super interesting. I think, right, as well, so it's a Golden Age for learning right, but if you're in the technology industry in the sort of areas that we are, right, if you don't love it and if you're not passionate about it, I almost feel like you're in the wrong industry, because you need that passion, and that sort of it's my hobby as well as my job, just to keep up. Like I feel like I spend an unhealthy amount of time in the Cloud Native ecosystem and just trying to keep track of everything that's going on. And all that time that I spend in, I still feel like I'm playing catch-up all the time. So I think you have to adjust your mentality. Like if you thought that you could learn something, a technology or whatever, and be comfortable for five years in your role, then you really need to adjust that. Like just an example, right. So I write, I offer a book as well, and I would love nothing better than to write that book, stick it on a shelf on Amazon and what-have-you and let it be valid for five years. I would love that because it's hard work, but I can't so like I do a six monthly update, but that applies to way more than that. So for your career, you know, if you want to, it sounds cheesy, if you want to rock it in your career, you have got to keep yourself up to date. And it's a race, but I do think that the kind of things were doing with tech now, they're fun things, right. >> Yeah, a little scary, because while we're at this show I hope you kept up with all the Amazon announcements, the Google announcements. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> And everything going, because it is it is non-stop. >> Nigel: It is. >> Out there. Nigel, we last had you on theCUBE two years ago at this show, and at every show for a bunch of shows it seemed like there was a project or a category du jour. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> I don't know that I quite got that this year. There were some really cool things at edge computing. There was the observability, something we spent a bunch of time talking on. But we'd love to just kind of throw it out there as to what you're seeing in the ecosystem, the landscape, some of the areas that are interesting. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Important, and what's growing, what's not. >> Okay, so if I can take the event first off, right, so KubeCon itself. Loads of new people, okay, and when I talk to them I'm getting three answers from them. Like number one, they're like, some people like, I just love it, you know, which is great, and I've loved it and it's an amazing event. Other people are like kind of over awed by it, the size. So I don't know, maybe we should send them to re:Invent and then come back here and then they'll be like, oh yeah, it's not so bad. But the second thing is that some of the sessions are going over the first timers heads. So I'm hoping, and I'm sure it will, that going forward in Amsterdam and Boston next year that we'll start to be able to pitch parts of the conference to that new user base. So that was kind of a theme from speaking to people at the event from me. But a couple of things from the ecosystem, like we talked about service mesh, right, two years ago, and it felt like it was a bit of a buzzword, but everyone was talking about it and it was a real theme, and I don't get that at this conference, but what I do feel from the community in general is that uptake and adoption is actually starting to happen now, and thanks a lot to, well look, Linkerd pretty easy these days, STO is making great strides to being easier to deploy, but I also think that the cloud providers, those hosted cloud providers, really stepping up to the plate, like they did with hosted Kubernetes, you know when it was hard to get Kubernetes for your environment. We're seeing a similar thing with the service mesh. You can spin something up in GKE, Kubernetes cluster, click the box, and I'll have a service mesh, thank you very much. >> Well, it's funny. I think back to Austin, when I talk to the average customer in the show floor and said, "What are you doing?" they were rolling their own. Picking all of the pieces and doing it. When I talk to the average customer here, is, I'm using managed services. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Seems to have matured a lot. Of course, some of the manage public cloud services were brand new or a couple months there. Is that's a general direction you see things going? >> So, yes, but I almost wonder if it will be like cloud in general, right, where there was a big move to the cloud. And I understand why people will want to do hosted Kubernetes and things, 'cause it's easy and you know it gets you. I'm careful that when I use the term production grade, because I know it means different things to different people, but you get something that we can at least loosely turn production grade. >> Yeah, and actually just to be clear, we had a lot of discussions about on-premises, so I guess it's more the managed service rather than the, I'm going to roll all the pieces myself. >> Yeah, but I wonder will we start, and because of price and maybe the ability to tweak the cluster towards your needs and things, whether we might see people taking their first steps on a managed service or a hosted Kubernetes, and then as they scale up then they start to say, well, tell you what we'll start rolling our own, because we're better at doing this now, and then run like, you know, you still have your hosted stuff, but you have some stuff on premises as well, and then we move towards something that's a bit more hybrid. I don't know, but I just wonder if that will become a trend. >> Well Nigel, I mean it's been a busy week. You started off with workshops. I don't know, what did you miss? What's the first, when you go home, back to England, are you going to, and you pop open your browser and start looking at all the session videos and stuff, I don't know, what didn't you get a chance to do here this week? >> So I was kind of, for me it's been the busiest KubeCon I've had and it's robbed me of a lot of sessions, right, and when I remember when I looked at the catalog at the beginning it was like, you know it's one of those conferences where almost every slot there's three things that I want to go to, which is a sign of a good conference. I'm quite interested at the moment in K3s. I actually haven't touched it for a long time, but outside of KubeCon I have had a lot of people talk to me about that, so I will go home and I will hunt down, right, what are the K3s sessions to try and get myself back up to speed, 'cause I know there are other projects that are similar right, but I find it quite fascinating in that it's one of those projects where it started out with like this goal of we'll be for the edge, right, or for IOT or something, and the community are like, we really like it, and actually I want to use it for loads of other things. You have no idea whether it will go on to be like a roaring success, but it. I don't know, so often you have it where a project isn't planned to be something. >> Announcer: Good afternoon attendees. Breakout sessions will begin in 10 minutes. >> But it naturally in the community. >> Announcer: Session locations are listed. >> Take it on and say. >> Announcer: On the noted schedule. >> We're going to do something with it. >> Announcer: On digital signage throughout the venue. >> That wasn't originally planned, yeah. So I'll be looking up K3s as my first thing when I go home, but it is the first thing on a long list, right. >> All right. Nigel, tell us a little bit about, you know, latest things you're doing, msb.com. I know you had your book signing for your book here, had huge lines here. >> Yeah. >> Great to see. So, tell us about what you're doing overall. >> Thank you, yeah. So, I've got a couple of books and I've got a bunch of video training courses out there, and I'm super fortunate that I've reached a lot of people, but a real common theme when I talk to people are like, look, I love your book, I love your video courses, whatever, how do I take that next step, and the answer was always, look, get your hands on as much as possible, okay. And I would send people to like Minikube and to play with Docker or play with Kubernetes and various other solutions, but none of them really seem to be like, a real something that looked and smelled and tasted like production. So I'm working with a start-up at the moment, msb.com, where we have curated learning content. Everybody gets their own fully functioning private free node Kubernetes cluster. Ingress will work, internet-facing load balancers will all work on it, and the idea is that instead of having like a single node development environment on your laptop, which is fine, but you know, you can't really play with scheduling and things like that, then msb.com takes that sort of learning journey to the next level because it's it's a real working cluster, plus we've got this amazing visual dashboard so that when you're deploying stuff and scaling and rolling updates you see it all happening in the browser. And for me as an educator, right, it's sometimes hard for people to connect the dots when you're reading a book or, and I spend hours on like PowerPoint animations and stuff, whereas now in this browser to augment like reading a book, and to augment taking a training video, you can go and get your hands on and have this amazing sort of rich visual experience that really helps you like, sort of, oh I get it now, yeah. >> All right, so Nigel, final question I have for you. I've known you back when we were just a couple of infrastructure guys. You've done phenomenal things. >> Nigel: The glory days. >> With kind of the wave of containers, you're a Docker captain. You know, really well known in the Kubernetes. When you reflect back on something, on kind of this journey we've been on, you look at 12,000 people here, you know Docker has some recent news here, so give us a reflection back on that this journey the whole industry's on. >> Yeah, so I had breakfast with a guy this morning who I wrote my first ever public blog with. He had a blog site and he loaned me some space on his blog site 'cause I didn't even know how to build a blog at the time, and it was a storage blog, yeah, we're talking about EMC and HDS and all that kind of stuff, and I'm having breakfast with him, 14 I think years later in San Diego at KubeCon. And I think, and I don't know if this really answers your question, but I feel like that Kubernetes is almost so, if ubiquitous is the right word or it's so pervasive, and it's so all-encompassing almost, that it is bringing almost the entire community. I don't want to get too carried away with saying this, right, but it is bringing people from all different areas to like a common platform for want of a better term, right. I mean we were infrastructure guys, yourself as well John, and here we are at an event that as a community and as a technology I think it's just, it's changing the world, but it's also bringing things almost under one hood. So I would say anybody, like whatever you're doing, do all roads lead to Kubernetes at the moment, I don't know. >> Yeah, well we know software can actually be a unifying factor. Best term I've heard is Kubernetes is looking to be that universal back plain. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> and therefore, both you know, southbound to the infrastructure, northbound to the application. Nigel Poulton congratulations on the progress. Definitely, everybody makes sure to check out his training online, and thank you for helping us to wrap up our three days of coverage here. For John Troyer, I am Stu Miniman. TheCUBE will be at KubeCon 2020 in both Amsterdam and Boston. we will be at lots of other shows. Be sure to check out thecube.net. Please reach out if you have any questions. We are looking for more people to help support our growing coverage in the cloud native space, so thank you so much for the community, thank you to all of our guests, thank you to the CNCF and our sponsors that make this coverage possible, and thank you to you our audience for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Miami Beach, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering VeeamON 2019. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Welcome back to the Fontainebleau, Miami, everybody. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host for this segment, Justin Warren. Justin it's great to see you. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, day two of our coverage of VeeamON 2019 here in Miami. Jason Buffington, @Jbuff is here, he's the vice president of solution strategy congratulations on the promotion and great to see you again, my friend. >> Thank you very much. >> Dave: And Nathan Hughes who is the IT director at Flex-N-Gate. Great to see you, thanks for coming on. We love to get the customer's perspective, so welcome. >> Great to be here. >> Okay, so, Jason let me start with you. Former analyst, you've been at Veeam now for long enough to A, get promoted, but also, get the Kool-Aid injection, you're wearing the green, and, what are the big trends that you're seeing in the market that are really driving this next era, what do guys call it? Act two of data protection? >> Sure. So, I preached on this even before I joined Veeam that every 10 years or so, when the industry shifts the platform of choice, the data protection vendors almost always reset, right? The people that lead in NetWare don't lead in Windows. The people that lead in Windows didn't lead in Vert. The next wave is we're moving from servers to services. Right, we're going from on prem into cloud and so, and every time the problem is the secret sauce doesn't line up, right? So you got to reinvent yourself each time. And what we saw in the past generations, what we learned from, is, you can't be so busy taking care of your install base that you forget to keep innovating on what that next platform is and so for us, act two is all about cloud. We're going to take everything we know about reliability but we're moving into cloud. The difference is, that in virtualization there was one hero scenario. VMs, right? This time around it's IaaS, it's SaaS, it's PaaS, it's using cloud storage, it's BaaS and DRaaS, there's not a single hero scenario which means we have a lot more innovation to do. That's round two. >> And you made that point today, you used the Archimedes quote, give me a lever and a fulcrum and I'll change the world. You used the analogy of backup as now becoming much more than just backup, it's data protection, it's data management, we're going to get into that. And test some of that with Nathan. So, Nathan, tell us about Flex-N-Gate what does the company do and what does your role as IT director entail? >> Okay, so Flex-N-Gate is a tier one automotive supplier. Which means that we provide parts, most of the things that go into a car besides electronics and glass, to the final automotive makers. So most of the companies that you're familiar with when you go to buy one. >> Okay, so you guys are global, I think you've got what, 24,000 associates worldwide, 64 locations. So what're some of the things that are, fundamental drivers of your business, that are rippling through to your IT strategy? >> Well, our business is varied in the sense that we do a lot of different things in house so, we do, obviously, manufacturing, that's a big part of what we do. And then, even that is broken down into different kinds and then beyond manufacturing we have advanced product development and engineering so we do a lot of that in house. >> Dave: You support it all? >> Yes. >> So you've got diverse lines of business, you've got different roles and personas, you know, engineers versus business people versus finance people. And you got to make 'em all happy. >> We've got to make 'em all happy. >> So, one of the things I love about manufacturing examples, is if you think about it it's the two extremes of high tech and low tech, right? On the low tech side of things you've got this manufacturing floor and it's just producing real stuff, not the zeros and ones that we live with, but real things come off this line. And then you have the engineering and R and D side. Where they're absolutely focused on stuff that comes out of some engineer's head into a computer, which is truly unique data, so, one of the things I love about the story is, talk about the downtime challenges you have around the manufacturing floor. Because I learned some things when we first met, that I think is phenomenal when it comes to manufacturing things that I didn't realize. >> Sure. So, we have a lot of different kinds of manufacturing environments. Some of them are more passive and some of them are more active. The most active environments are, a form of manufacturing known as sequencing. And it's sort of where you bring final assembly of parts together right before they go to the customer. The way that customers order up parts these days, it's not like they used to back in the 70s and 80s. Where they would warehouse huge volumes of everything on their site and then just draw it down if they needed it. And you just kept the queue full. Now they want everything just in time delivery. So they basically want parts to come to the line right when they're needed and actually in the order they're needed. So, a final car maker, they're not necessarily making, 300 of the same thing in a row, they're going to make one of this in blue and one of that in red and they're all going to be sequenced behind each other, one right after the other on the assembly line. And they want the parts from the suppliers to come in the exact right order for that environment. So, the challenge with that from our perspective is that we have trucking windows that are between 30, maybe 60 minutes on the high end, and if anything goes badly, you can put the customer down. And now you're talking about stopping production at Ford, Chrysler, GM, whatever. And that's a lot of money and a lot of other suppliers impacted. >> Dave: So this is a data problem isn't it? >> Yeah, it definitely is. And it's an interesting point, 'cause, you talk about sequencing. Veeam has their own sequence about how customers use the product and they start with backup, everything starts with backup, and then they move further to the right so that you get, ideally, to fully automated data protection. So, what are you actually using Veeam for today? And where do you see yourself going with Veeam? >> So, right now, we're using Veeam primarily as backup and recovery. It's how we started with it. We came from another product that was, great conceptually, but in the real world it had terrible reliability and its performance was very poor as time went on and so, when Veeam came on the scene it was a breath of fresh air because we got to the place where we knew that what we had was dependable, it was reliable. We got to understand how the product worked and to improve the way that we'd implemented it. And so, one of the key features in Veeam that really actually excited us, especially in those sequencing environments are these instant recovery options, right? So, we were used to the idea of having to write down a VM out of snapshot storage. And then being put in a position where it might take an hour, two hours, three hours before you could get that thing back online now, or again, to be able to launch that right out of snapshot storage was a blessing in the industry we're in. >> Yeah, did you see the tech demo yesterday where they were showing off how you could do an instant recovery directly from cloud storage? >> Yes, yeah. >> Did that get you excited? >> Yes. That is exciting. >> Are you using cloud at the moment or is this something that you're looking to move towards? >> Cloud is something we're sort of investigating but it's not something that we're actively utilizing right now. >> So this instance recovery, you guys obviously make a big deal out of that, I was talking to Danny Allan yesterday offline about it. He claims it's unique in the industry. And I asked him a question, I said specifically, if you lose the catalog, can I actually get the data back? And he said yes. And I'm like, that sounds like magic. So, so I guess my question to maybe both of you is, instant, how instant? And how does it actually work? (he laughs) >> It just works, isn't that? >> It just works! >> It's just magic, new tagline? >> I guess we don't have to get into the weeds but when you say, when I hear instant recovery, we're talking like, (fingers clicking) instantaneous recovery with, very short RTOs? >> To us what that means is that in practice, we can expect to have a VM from snapshot data back into production in about a five minute window. >> Dave: Five minutes? Okay. >> And that is sufficient for our needs in any environment. >> Okay, so now we're talking RTO, right? And then, what about, so we said 64 sites across the world, 24,000 associates, is Veeam your enterprise wide data protection strategy or are you rolling it out now? Where are you at? >> Yes, no. Veeam, we started with it in a handful of key sites. And we were using it to specifically back up SharePoint and a few other platforms. But once we understood what the product was capable of, and we were sort of reaching the end of our rope with this former product, yeah, we began an active roll out and we've now had Veeam in our facilities for five, six years. >> So you swept the floor of that previous product. And how complicated was it for you to move from the legacy product to Veeam? >> It was a challenge just rethinking the way that we do things, the previous product, one thing that it really had going for it, if this could be considered a positive, I guess, is that it was very very simple to set up. So, you could take an entry level IT administrator and they just next, next, next, next, next. And it would do all the things that they needed it to do. But the problem was that in the real world, that was sort of the Achilles' Heel, because, it meant that it wasn't very well customized and it meant also that, the way that they've developed that product, it became performance, it had poor performance. >> So the reason I ask that question is because, so many times customers are stuck. And it's like they don't want to move, because it's a pain. But the longer they go, the more costly it is, down the road. So I'm always looking to IT practitioners like, advice that you would give in terms of others, things that you might do differently if you had a mulligan, I don't know, maybe you would've started sooner, or maybe there were some things that you'd do differently. What would you advise? >> Yeah, I mean, if we'd understood, the whole context of what was happening with that other product, we would've moved sooner. And the one thing that I will say about Veeam is, it's not click and point. It does involve a little more setup. But the Veeam team is excellent when it comes to support. So there's nothing to fear in that category because they stand behind their product and it's very easy to get qualified technicians to help you out. >> Is that by design? >> I don't know if it's. Well, the being great to work with, yes, that's by design. >> Yeah, but I mean. >> I was talking to Danny yesterday and asked about the interface thing. Because there is always that tension between making it really really simple to use but then it doesn't have any knobs to change when you need to. >> That's what I'm asking. >> But it can't be too complex either. >> Our gap actually comes a little bit later in the process, right? So, you asked earlier about, in what ways do you use Veeam? And we think about Veeam as a progression, right? So, everybody if they're using Veeam at all, they're using it for Veeam backup and replication and because foundationally, until you can protect your stuff, right? Until you can reliably do that, all the other stuff that you'd like to do around data management is aspirational and unattainable at best, right? So, we think the journey comes in at yeah, it is pretty easy, to go next, next, next, finish. Just a few tweaks, right? To get backup going. But then when you go beyond that, now there's a whole range of other things you can do, right? So Danny, I'm sure, talked about DataLabs yesterday. The orchestration engine, those are not, next, next, next, finish. But anything that's worthwhile takes a little bit of effort, right? So as we pivot from, now that you've solved backup, then you can do those other things and that's where we really start going back into something which is really more expertise driven. >> Well, and it's early days too and as you get more data and more experience you can begin to automate things. >> Yeah, absolutely. So Justin was asking, Nathan, where the direction is. Today it's really backup. You've seen the stages where, talking about full automation. Is that something that, is on the horizon, it is sort of near term, midterm, longterm? >> I mean, coming to the conference, our experience with backup, or Veeam, is primarily backup and recovery operations but, I've seen a lot of things in the last few days that have piqued my interest. Particularly when it comes to the cloud integration. That's being actively baked into the product now. And, some of the automated, API stuff, that's being built into the product. Any place where I can get to where we simplify our procedures for recovery, that's a plus. So I'm really excited about the idea of the virtual labs, being able to actively test backup on a regular basis without human intervention and have reporting out of that. Those are things that I don't see in any other product that's out there. >> You know, there's another piece of the innovation that we should think through, and, so we've talked about the sequencing side which is where we focus on RTO, how fast can you get back and running again? And when you and I talked earlier, the example that we worked on was think of a zipper, right? You've got the bumpers coming in to a line of cars and if either side slows down, everything breaks, and at the end, by the way, is the truck, right? And everything has to come at the same time at the same rate, if there's downtime on either side of the source, you're done. But that's an RTO problem. The engineering side, for high tech, is an RPO problem, right? You have unique stuff coming out of somebody's brain into a PC and it'll never come out that way again. And so, when we look at backup and replication, that should be the next pieces to go on. And then as you mentioned, DataLabs becomes really interesting and orchestration, so. >> Well speaking of human brains, and you kind of touched on it, Nathan, that you came here to learn some things and you've learned things from different sessions. So, what is it about coming to VeeamON that is worth the time for IT practitioners like yourself? >> I think it's all those, I mean we were talking about Veeam, doing backup and recovery operations, fairly straightforwardly, in terms of getting in, but once you see some of this stuff here at a conference like this, you get a better sense of all the more, elaborate aspects of the product. And, you wouldn't get that >> See the possibilities. >> I think, if you were just sitting in front of it using it conventionally, this is a good place to really learn the depth and the level that you can go with it. >> And you're like most of your peers here, is that right, highly virtualized, is that right? Lot of Microsoft apps. And, they say, mid-sized global organization, actually kind of bumping up into big. >> Nathan: Sure. >> Yeah, cool. I asked about the data problem before, it sounds like the zipper's coming together, that's some funky math that you got to figure out to make sure everything's there. So, talk about the data angle. How important data is to your organization, we know much data's growing, data's the new oil, all those promides but, what about your organization specifically as it relates to a digital strategy? It's a buzzword that we hear a lot but, does it have meaning for you, and what does it mean? >> Data is vital in any organization. I mean, we were referencing earlier, how you've got low tech in manufacturing, or at least people think of it as lower tech. And then high tech in R and D, and how those things merge together in a single company. But the reality is all of that is data driven, right? Even when you go to the shop floor, all your scheduling, all your automation equipment, all this stuff is talking and it's all laying down data. You're putting rivets in the parts, you're probably taking pictures of that now with imagers when you're in manufacturing. And you do that so that if you get 300 bad ones you can see exactly when that started and what happened at the machine level, right? So, >> That's a good one. >> We're just constantly collecting massive volumes of new data, and being able to store that reliably is everything. >> Well, and the reason I'm asking is you guys have been around for a while and your a highly distributed organization so, in the old days, even still today, you'd build, you'd get a server for an application, you'd harden that application, you'd secure that box and the application running on it, you'd lock the data inside and, my question is, can, the backup approach, the data protection approach, the data management, or whatever we want to call it, can it help solve that data silo problem? Is that part of the strategy or is it just too early for that? >> I'm, sorry, I'm going to get you to repeat that question in a slightly different way. >> Yeah so, am I correct that you've got data in silos from all the years and years and years of building up applications and-- >> I mean, we have-- >> And can you use something like Veeam to help unify that data model? >> Draw that all together? Yeah. I think a lot of that has, it's more on the hosting side, right? So it depends on how those systems were rolled out originally and all that kind of thing. But yeah, as we've moved towards Veeam, we've necessarily rebuilt some of those systems in such a way that they are more aggregated and that Veeam can pick them up in an integrated kind of way. >> You see that as a common theme? Veeam as one of the levers of the fulcrum to new data architecture? >> We're getting there, so here's the trick. So, first you got to solve for basic protection, right? But the next thing along the way to really get towards data management is you got to know what you got, right? You got to know what's actually in those zeros and ones. And so, some of the things that you've already seen from us are around what we do around GDPR compliance, some of the things we do around sanitization of data for DevOps scenarios and reuse scenarios. All of that opens up a box of, okay, now that the data is curated. Now that it's ingested into our system, what else can you do with it? You know, when I talk to C-level execs, what I tell them is, data protection, no matter who it comes from, including Veeam, is really expensive if the only thing you do is put that data in a box and wait for bad things to happen, right? Now the good news is, bad things are going to happen, so you're going to get ROI. But better is don't just leave your data in a box, right? Do other stuff with that data, unlock the value of it and some of that value comes in, now that I'm more aware of it, let's reduce some of the copies, let's reduce some of the compliance mandates. Let's only put data that has sovereignty requirements where it goes, but to do all of that, you got to know what you got. >> Go ahead, please. >> There was some impressive demo yesterday about exactly that, so, we have the data. You can use the API to script it and you can do all kinds of, basically, you're limited by your imagination. So it's going to be fascinating to see what customers do with it once they've put it in place, they've got their data protected. And then they start playing with things, come to a conference like this and learn, ooh, I might just give that a try on my data when I get back home. >> That's right. >> We'll give the customer the last word, Nathan. Impressions of VeeamON 2019? >> It's been great. And like I say, if you're a company that's been using Veeam even for a while, and you have your entry level setup for backup and recovery and I think there's a lot of, probably, companies out there that use Veeam in that kind of way, this is a great place to have a better understanding of all that's available to you in that product. And there's a lot more than just meets the eye. >> And it's fun, good food, fun people. Thanks you guys for coming on, really appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Alright, keep it right there, buddy, we'll be back with our next guest, you're watching theCUBE, Dave Vellante, Justin Warren, and Peter Burris is also here. VeeamON 2019, we'll be right back. (electronic music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. 7,700 here in attendance, here about all the Cloud Native technologies. I'm Stu Miniman; my cohost to the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn. And to help us break down what's happening in this ecosystem, we've brought in Jason Bloomberg, who's the president at Intellyx. Jason, thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here. >> All right. There's probably some things in the keynote I want to talk about, but I also want to get your general impression of the show and beyond the show, just the ecosystem here. Brian Liles came out this morning. He did not sing or rap for us this morning like he did yesterday. He did remind us that the dinners in Barcelona meant that people were a little late coming in here because, even once you've got through all of your rounds of tapas and everything like that, getting that final check might take a little while. They did eventually filter in, though. Always a fun city here in Barcelona. I found some interesting pieces. Always love some customer studies. Conde Nast talking about what they've done with their digital imprint. CERN, who we're going to have on this program. As a science lover, you want to geek out as to how they're finding the Higgs boson and how things like Kubernetes are helping them there. And digging into things like storage, which I worked at a storage company for 10 years. So, understanding that storage is hard. Well, yeah. When containers came out, I was like, "Oh, god, we just fixed it for virtualization, "and it took us a decade. "How are we going to do it this time?" And they actually quoted a crowd chat that we had in our community. Tim Hawken, of course one of the first Kubernetes guys, was in on that. And we're going to have Tim on this afternoon, too. So, just to set a little context there. Jason, what's your impressions of the show? Anything that has changed in your mind from when you came in here to today? Let's get into it from there. >> Well, this is my second KubeCon. The first one I went to was in Seattle in December. What's interesting from a big picture is really how quickly and broadly KubeCon has been adopted in the enterprise. It's still, in the broader scheme of things, relatively new, but it's really taking its place as the only container orchestrator anybody cares about. It sort of squashed the 20-or-so alternative container orchestrators that had a brief day in the sun. And furthermore, large enterprises are rapidly adopting it. It's remarkable how many of them have adopted it and how broadly, how large the deployment. The Conde Nast example was one. But there are quite a number. So we turned the corner, even though it's relatively immature technology. That's the interesting story as well, that there's still pieces missing. It's sort of like flying an airplane while you're still assembling it, which makes it that much more exciting. >> Yeah, one of the things that has excited me over the last 10 years in tech is how fast it takes me to go from ideation to production, has been shrinking. Big data was: "Let's take the thing that used to take five years "and get it down to 18 months." We all remember ERP deployments and how much money and people you need to throw at that. >> It still takes a lot of money and people. >> Right, because it's ERP. I was talking to one of the booths here, and they were doing an informal poll of, "How many of you are going to have Kubernetes "in production in the next six months?" Not testing it, but in production in the next six months, and it was more than half of the people were going to be ramping it up in that kind of environment. Anything architecturally? What's intriguing you? What's the area that you're digging down to? We know that we are not fully mature, and even though we're in production and huge growth, there's still plenty of work to do. >> An interesting thing about the audience here is it's primarily infrastructure engineers. And the show is aimed at the infrastructure engineers, so it's technical. It's focused on people who code for a living at the infrastructure level, not at the application level. So you have that overall context, and what you end up having, then, is a lot of discussions about the various components. "Here's how we do storage." "Here's how we do this, here's how we do that." And it's all these pieces that people now have to assemble, as opposed to thinking of it overall, from the broader context, which is where I like writing about, in terms of the bigger picture. So the bigger picture is really that Cloud Native, broadly speaking, is a new architectural paradigm. It's more than just an architectural trend. It's set of trends that really change the way we think about architecture. >> One interesting piece about Kubernetes, as well. One of the things we're seeing as we see Kubernetes start to expand out is, unlike serverless, it doesn't necessarily require the same level of, oh, just take everything you've done and spend 18 months rewriting it from scratch, and then it works in this new paradigm in a better way. It's much less of a painful conversion process. We saw in the keynote today that they took WebLogic, of all things, and dropped that into Kubernetes. If you can do it with something as challenging, in some respects, and as monolithic as WebLogic, then almost any other stack you're going to see winds up making some sense. >> Right, you mentioned serverless in contrast with Kubernetes, but actually, serverless is part of this Cloud Native paradigm as well. So it's broader than Kubernetes, although Kubernetes has established itself as the container orchestration platform of choice. But it's really an overall story about how we can leverage the best practices we've learned from cloud computing across the entire enterprise IT landscape, both in the cloud and on premises. And Kubernetes is driving this in large part, but it's bigger picture than the technology itself. That's what's so interesting, because it's so transformative, but people here are thinking about trees, not the forest. >> It's an interesting thing you say there, and I'm curious if you can help our community, Because they look at this, and they're like, "Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes." Well, a bunch of the things sit on Kubernetes. As they've tried to say, it's a platform of platforms. It's not the piece. Many of the things can be with Kubernetes but don't have to be. So, the whole observability piece. We heard the merging of the OpenCensus, OpenTracing with OpenTelemetry. You don't have to have Kubernetes for that to be a piece of it. It can be serverless underneath it. It can be all these other pieces. Cloud Native architecture sits on top of it. So when you say Cloud Native architecture, what defines that? What are the pieces? How do I have to do it? Is it just, I have to have meditated properly and had a certain sense of being? What do we have to do to be Cloud Native? >> Well, an interesting way of looking at it is: What we have subtracted from the equation, so what is intentionally missing. Cloud Native is stateless, it is codeless, and it is trustless. Now, not to say that we don't have ways of dealing with state, and of course there's still plenty of code, and we still need trust. But those are architectural principals that really percolate through everything we do. So containers are inherently stateless; they're ephemeral. Kubernetes deals with ephemeral resources that come and go as needed. This is key part of how we achieve the scale we're looking for. So now we have to deal with state in a stateless environment, and we need to do that in a codeless way. By codeless, I mean declarative. Instead of saying, how are we going to do something? Let's write code for that, we're going to say, how are we going to do that? Let's write a configuration file, a YAML file, or some other declarative representation of what we want to do. And Kubernetes is driven this way. It's driven by configuration, which means that you don't need to fork it. You don't need to go in and monkey with the insides to do something with it. It's essentially configurable and extensible, as opposed to customizable. This is a new way of thinking about how to leverage open-source infrastructure software. In the past, it was open-source. Let's go in an monkey with the code, because that's one of the benefits of open-source. Nobody wants to do that now, because it's declaratively-driven, and it's configurable. >> Okay, I hear what you're saying, and I like what you're saying. But one of the things that people say here is everyone's a little bit different, and it is not one solution. There's lots of different paths, and that's what's causing a little bit of confusion as to which service mesh, or do I have a couple of pieces that overlap. And every deployment that I see of this is slightly different, so how do I have my cake and eat it, too? >> Well, you mentioned that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms, and there's little discussion of what we're actually doing with the Kubernetes here at the show. Occasionally, there's some talk about AI, and there's some talk about a few other things, but it's really up to the users of Kubernetes, who are now the development teams in the enterprises, to figure out what they want to do with it and, as such, figure out what capabilities they require. Depending upon what applications you're running and the business use cases, you may need certain things more than others. Because AI is very different from websites, it's very different from other things you might be running. So that's part of the benefit of a platform of platforms, is it's inherently configurable. You can pick and choose the capabilities you want without having to go into Kubernetes and fork it. We don't want 12 different Kubernetes that are incompatible with each other, but we're perfectly okay with different flavors that are all based on the same, fundamental, identical code base. >> We take a look at this entire conference, and it really comes across as, yes, it's KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We look at the, I think, 36 projects that are now being managed by this. But if we look at the conversations of what's happening here, it's very clear that the focus of this show is Kubernetes and friends, where it tends to be taking the limelight of a lot of this. One of the challenges you start seeing as soon as you start moving up the stack, out through the rest of the stack, rather, and seeing what all of these Cloud Native technologies are is, increasingly, they're starting to be defined by what they aren't. I mean, you have the old saw of, serverless runs on servers, and other incredibly unhelpful sentiments. And we talk about what things aren't more so than we do what they are. And what about capabilities story? I don't have an answer for this. I think it's one of those areas where language is hard, and defining what these things are is incredibly difficult. But I see what you're saying. We absolutely are seeing a transformative moment. And one of the strangest things about it, to me at least, is the enthusiasm with which we're seeing large enterprises, that you don't generally think of as being particularly agile or fast-moving, are demonstrating otherwise. They're diving into this in fascinating ways. It's really been enlightening to have conversations for the last couple of days with companies that are embracing this new paradigm. >> Right. Well, in our perspective at Intellyx, we're focusing on digital transformation in the enterprise, which really means putting the customer first and having a customer-driven transformation of IT, as well as the organization itself. And it's hard to think in those terms, in customer-facing terms, when you're only talking about IT infrastructure. Be that as it may, it's still all customer-driven. And this is sometimes the missing piece, is how do we connect what we're doing on the infrastructure side with what customers require from these companies that are implementing it? Often, that missing piece centers on the workload. Because, from the infrastructure perspective, we have a notion of a workload, and we want workload portability. And portability is one of the key benefits of Kubernetes. It gives us a lot of flexibility in terms of scalability and deployment options, as well as resilience and other benefits. But the workload also represents the applications we're putting in front of our end users, whether they're employees or end customers. So that's they key piece that is like the keystone that ties the digital story, that is the customer-facing, technology-driven, technology-empowered story, with the IT infrastructure stories. How do we support the flexibility, scalability, resilience of the workloads that the business needs to meet its business goals? >> Yeah, I'm really glad you brought up that digital transformation piece, because I have two questions, and I want to make sure I'm allowing you to cover both of them. One is, the outcome we from people as well: "I need to be faster, and I need to be agile." But at the same point, which pieces should I, as an enterprise, really need to manage? Many of these pieces, shouldn't I just be able to consume it as a managed service? Because I don't need to worry about all of those pieces. The Google presentation this morning about storage was: You have two options. Path one is: we'll take care of all of that for you. Path two is: here's the level of turtles that you're going to go all the way down, and we all know how complicated storage is, and it's got to work. If I lose my state, if I lose my pieces there, I'm probably out of business or at least in really big trouble. The second piece on that, you talked about the application. And digital transformation. Speed's great and everything, but we've said at Wikibon that the thing that will differentiate the traditional companies and the digitally transformed is data will drive your business. You will have data, it will add value of business, and I don't feel that story has come out yet. Do you see that as the end result from this? And apologies for having two big, complex questions here for you. >> Well, data are core to the digital transformation story, and it's also an essential part of the Kubernetes story. Although, from the infrastructure perspective, we're really thinking more about compute than about data. But of course, everything boils down to the data. That is definitely always a key part of the story. And you're talking about the different options. You could run it yourself or run it as a managed service. This is a key part of the story as well, is that it's not about making a single choice. It's about having options, and this is part of the modern cloud storage. It's not just about, "Okay, we'll put everything in one public cloud." It's about having multiple public clouds, private clouds, on-premises virtualization, as well as legacy environments. This is what you call hybrid IT. Having an abstracted collection of environments that supports workload portability in order to meet the business needs for the infrastructure. And that workload portability, in the context of multiple clouds, that is becoming increasingly dependent on Kubernetes as an essential element of the infrastructure. So Kubernetes is not the be-all and end-all, but it's become an essentially necessary part of the infrastructure, to make this whole vision of hybrid IT and digital transformation work. >> For now. I mean, I maintain that, five years from now, no one is going to care about Kubernetes. And there's two ways that goes. Either it dries up, blows away, and something else replaces it, which I don't find likely, or, more likely, it slips beneath the surface of awareness for most people. >> I would agree, yeah. >> The same way that we're not sitting here, having an in-depth conversation about which distribution of Linux, or what Linux kernel or virtual memory manager we're working with. That stuff has all slipped under the surface, to the point where there are people who care tremendously about this, but you don't need to employ them at every company. And most companies don't even have to think about it. I think Kubernetes is heading that direction. >> Yeah, it looks like it. Obviously, things continue to evolve. Yeah, Linux is a good example. TCP/IP as well. I remember the network protocol wars of the early 90s, before the web came along, and it was, "Are we going to use Banyan VINES, "are we going to use NetWare?" Remember NetWare? "Or are we going to use TCP/IP or Token Ring?" Yeah! >> Thank you. >> We could use GDP, but I don't get it. >> Come on, KOBOL's coming back, we're going to bring back Token Ring, too. >> KOBOL never went away. Token Ring, though, it's long gone. >> I am disappointed in Corey, here, for not asking the question about portability. The concern we have, as you say: okay, I put Kubernetes in here because I want portability. Do I end up with least-common-denominator cloud? I'm making a decision that I'm not going to go deep on some of the pieces, because nice as the IPI lets things through, but we understand if I need to work across multiple environments, I'm usually making a trade-off there. What do you hear from customers? Are they aware that they're doing this? Is this a challenge for people, not getting the full benefit out of whichever primary or whichever clouds they are using? >> Well, portability is not just one thing. It's actually a set of capabilities, depending upon what you are trying to accomplish. So for instance, you may want to simply support backing up your workload, so you want to be able to move it from here to there, to back it up. Or you may want to leverage different public clouds, because different public clouds have different strengths. There may be some portability there. Or you may be doing cloud migration, where you're trying to move from on-premises to cloud, so it's kind of a one-time portability. So there could be a number of reasons why portability is important, and that could impact what it means to you, to move something from here to there. And why, how often you're going to do it, how important it is, whether it's a one-to-many kind of thing, or it's a one-to-one kind of thing. It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. >> Jason, last thing real quick. What research do you see coming out of this? What follow-up? What should people be looking for from Intellyx in this space in the near future? >> Well, we continue to focus on hybrid IT, which include Kubernetes, as well as some of the interesting trends. One of the interesting stories is how Kubernetes is increasingly being deployed on the edge. And there's a very interesting story there with edge computing, because the telcos are, in large part, driving that, because of their 5G roll-outs. So we have this interesting confluence of disruptive trends. We have 5G, we have edge computing, we have Kubernetes, and it's also a key use case for OpenStack, as well. So it's like all of these interesting trends are converging to meet a new class of challenges. And AI is part of that story as well, because we want to run AI at the edge, as well. That's the sort of thing we do at Intellyx, is try to take multiple disruptive trends and show the big picture overall. And for my articles for SiliconANGLE, that's what I'm doing as well, so stay tuned for those. >> All right. Jason Bloomberg, thank you for helping us break down what we're doing in this environment. And as you said, actually, some people said OpenStack is dead. Look, it's alive and well in the Telco space and actually merging into a lot of these environments. Nothing ever dies in IT, and theCUBE always keeps rolling throughout all the shows. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We have a full-packed day of interviews here, so be sure to stay with us. And thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube covering Veritas Vision 2017 brought to you by Veritas. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, everybody. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage, and this is our second day of Veritas Vision in 2017. I'm Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman. Jason Buffington is here, good friend of the Cube, Senior Analyst with the Enterprise Strategy Group, otherwise known as ESG. Jason, good to see you again. >> Thanks for having me back. >> We've been bumping into each other a lot lately, a lot of storage stuff going on and you you gave a panel discussion today. You had, you know, three of the four big Cloud guys up there, no Amazon, Stu. They weren't up on the panel, but that was good, you had an interview with those guys. >> Jason: Yeah. >> So, congratulations on that and welcome again. >> Yeah, everyone wants to talk about data protection, right? So, there's... >> Dave: Hottest topic, isn't it? >> It is, every time you go to a show, the last show that I was at, it seemed like over half the booths were talking about data protection. So, to come here, you know, Veritas kind of owns that as a name. And so it's been fun to just be part of the participants. >> Yeah, Jason, you know, you cover this base, and you know Veritas well. There are people I talked to getting ready for this, and they said, "We remember Veritas back in its hay day." You know, back pre-acquisition. During the virtualization era, it kind of got quiet. I mean, they got acquired by Semantic, things went down, but now they're an independent company, and one of the shows that, you know, we've been at VMWorld, absolutely. Data protection is super hot, you know, product of the year was one of those companies, whole lot of startups there, a lot of investment. What's your take on kind of the new Veritas, you know, where they fit in that ecosystem with all those startups and everybody else? >> No, that's a good read, so let's talk about the market first, and then I'll put Veritas in it, right? So, I think you're spot on that when the virtualization wave came through, most of the really big established data protection vendors were not first market, right? And in fact, every time that we see this, I've been doing this for 28 years, I've been backing stuff up, right? And for most of it, every time the platform shifts, the traditional dominant data protection vendors are not the first ones to jump on that new gear, right? Windows versus NetWare, now we're into virtualization. So, we saw Veeam, and PHD and vRanger, and a few others that barely get an honorable mention in that line, right? We're in a really interesting time, though, this time around because every time, in the past, when you moved off of the old platform, the presumption was, you turned it off, right? This time around, we're on the, here's a fancy word, we're on the precipice of a new shift again because we're looking at Cloud as the new platform to move to. But here's the fun part. We're not leaving the old stuff behind, right? We're not turning off all the virtual servers and the physical servers are on their way out the door as we go to Cloud. We're embracing Multicloud as the new destination, not this mid-step along the way. And I think that's really interesting because, just like in every time past, it means we're going to get a reset of the leader board when it comes to data protection. And, just like in times past, the secret sauce that made you dominant on the last platform, doesn't necessarily give you an edge technology-wise on the next platform. All it really does is give you momentum, right? So, yeah, there's a few other folks that we could list that they've got some momentum going for one reason or another along the way, but for the marketplace, if physical and virtual and Cloud are all going to be together, Veritas has been doing some of those for 20 some odd years. They've made some announcements around the rest of the suites. I think they're in a good place here. The thing I'm excited about from Veritas, and I do, I'm a fan, you want to root for them, right? I mean, 25 years on the bench, you want to see them keep going. I think the opportunity is that, since the divestiture from Semantic, they have a lot more focus, right? You know, it's really hard to tell a story that's everything from Malware and cyber security, all the way through to a breadth of data protection. But if you look at how they're talking about things now, and I really like the 360 narrative that kind of pulls it all together. Every part of their portfolio kind of pulls the other parts together, right? It doesn't matter, in data management, whether you want to start with backup, or you want to start with storage, or you want to start with availability, anywhere you look on that circle, it's going to pull the rest of the line in, and these are all the things that folks are asking for from a customer base. So, I like the tech that they've got. I like where the market is headed, and I think they've got a real shot to be one of those top three dominant names that we talk about moving forward. >> Yeah, so, I mean it's a 30 plus year history. >> Jason: Yeah. >> And pretty amazing, I mean this is an amazing story, this company. I mean, they came out, kind of a small company, and then there was that relationship which they bought Seagate. You know, Seagate's backup business. Seagate actually had a piece of the company for a while. >> Jason: Yeah. >> You know, Al Shugart, when he sold that stock, basically saved Seagate cause of the cash infusion. So, it was a long history, and then they kind of went dormant... >> Jason: Yeah. >> For a while under the Symantec Governance. And now, so the big question is, can Veritas get its mojo back in the space and become that super hot company again? >> So, by the way, sidebar, you talked about Seagate. I actually have a copy of Seagate Backup Exec sitting on a shelf in my office. (Dave laughing) And one of these days, I will open up the data protection museum, cause I think I've got most of the pieces and parts laying around. So, can Veritas get is mojo back? The thing that Veritas has to consistently remind people, one, we are not your daddy's or your granddaddy's backup company anymore, right? So, they're working on things like, they announced this week a new UI coming for NetBackup 8.1, and I thought they were going to crowd mob out of affirmation for that. People were so excited for, you know, finally we're going to get a contemporary UI that doesn't look like 1995 coming in, in that backup. So, certainly, some of the cosmetics, the sterilization of that UI going across as many of those products as possible in order to provide more of a contemporary feel. That's an easy place to dig on, right? But I think what Veritas really needs to think about is, they need to remind folks that, while they are not the stodgy presumption of what people might think, this is not their first rodeo in any of these areas, right? We had new announcements on software to find storage this week. Things like storage foundation and VCS, they've been doing that for 25 years, right? I mean, they've been doing to software to find storage before it was a thing, right? Availability, right? So, we talk about, I like the VRP product. I think it's a cool architecture, and something certainly that powers a lot of the Cloud mobility type capabilities that are there. And the idea of a heterogeneous platform to enable higher levels of availability, I think the market is just now growing into that, right? So, the trick is, we're not the old folks, but, oh by the way, we have reams of experience like you can't imagine. Let's put those things together and have an enterprise level conversation. >> So, let's lay the horses out on the track here. I mean, we were all at VMWorld, and we saw the, it was the hottest... That and security, backup and security are the two hottest spaces in the business right now. We saw the startups, the Cohesity's, the Rubrik's, the Zerto's, and sort of, the upshots. The Veeams, you know, a lot of action at their booths. Obviously, Veritas getting its mojo back. Where's Commvault in all this, so how do you lay out the horses on the track, what's the competitive landscape look like? Paint a picture for us. >> Yeah, so, first and foremost, I always go back to what ESG calls the data protection spectrum, right? So, the behaviors of archive, backup, snapshot, replication, availability. They are not interchangeable mechanisms. We call it a spectrum as a rainbow kind of feel. You know, when is the last time you went outside, saw a rainbow in the sky, and one of the colors was missing? You know, these colors do not replace each other. Snapshots and replications, etc. When you look at where the market's going, imagine a capital Y. In fact, if you go look up on your favorite blog site, I have a blog on, why does data protection have to evolve? This is the answer to your question. The base of that Y is just backup. Can you make copies of all of your stuff? And even that, I think a lot of folks have a challenge with. The next step up is that idea of data protection. So, backup plus snapshots plus replications, single set of policies. Where the market's going, and how it kind of lays out the horses, is now we're at that fork in the road in the capital Y, right? And some of the folks are moving down the availability path. And think about that word for a second, you can remember the vendors who like to go that direction. We're going from reactive recovery to proactive assured productivity, right? Because all the backup folks are just as down until somebody hits the restore button. That's the thing that no one really wants to talk about, as opposed to, if you have monitoring, if you have orchestration, if you have failover and rapid recovery mechanisms. Now, you really do have an availability story that comes out of that. And not all the vendors that you mentioned have that. >> Dave: Well, who are the leaders? >> Yeah, so, certainly, from a momentum and brand perspective, Veeam is definitely on the front line of that, you know, I think car racing is more easier... >> Dave: Cause they've got growth and... >> Yeah, they have momentum, they have, certainly virtualization is still a sweet spot for the data centers... >> Obviously, Veritas is... >> Veritas is absolutely... >> They said 15 years in a row in the Gartner Upper Right... >> Yeah. >> Okay, check. >> Dell EMC, broad portfolio there. Those are kind of the biggest three from, who has all the checked boxes they need to make sure they have a dialogue for the next conversation. >> And Commvault, you wouldn't put in that? >> So, well, I always think of three, you know, bronze, silver, gold, not in that order. >> Yeah, it's like baseball playoffs. Who's going to get in, who's the wild card, you know. >> So, Commvault checks all the right boxes, right? They have all the right narratives along the way. I think the challenge is, organizationally, they're a little siloed in how they tell the stories, and so sometimes it's hard to remember that they're actually the only ones who have a single code base. The ones that, you know, one set of tech that can check all the boxes. Everyone else actually has some myriad of pieces and parts that have to be assembled along the way. >> Dave: So, that's both a strength and a weakness... >> Yeah. >> Dave: For Commvault, right? >> Yeah, the opportunity is there to increase the marketing to tell one narrative. >> Kind of Tivoli, same thing, right? >> Yes, same kind of idea there. And by the way, I don't count, let's call them Spectrum Protect now, but I don't count them out. So, Spectrum Protect took a facelift a couple years ago and really got virtualization savvy. They took the, they had the same gap that everyone else that you mentioned had, and, what is it, six, four, a couple years back, they finally got around to that. And then they just announced Spectrum Protect Plus, which is really built for that V-Admin role. So, certainly we've got a good lens there. On the other side, just like in every other generation, you've got some upstarts that are looking pretty good. >> Well funded, some of them paid 100 million. >> Yeah, well funded, some of them I think have kind of a little bit of a puffer fish, right? They feel bigger than they are for the moment, and yet, the tech looks really good. They want to have a dialogue that says, don't start with backup and try to grow forward. Start over, right? Reimagine what storage might look like in the broader range of things. And by the way, data protection is one of the outcomes for that. And so, you put the Actifio, Cohesity, Rubrik, kind of mix, along the lines for that. You also get the... Catalogic stuff that goes into, that's OEM by IBM, kind of gets on the other side. I think that's going to be probably the coolest thing to watch in 2018. So, you hear the buzz words of copy data management. Everybody wants to talk about some version of those three words. We think that the market's going to go either evolution versus revolution. So, evolution is, start with the data protection folks that you know, and those technologies are going to grow into data management type folks. Here at the show, right, so we saw Veritas Velocity. It's their first foray into that. Cloud Point starts to come into that mix as well. So, the idea of keeping all you need, getting rid of it when you don't, and enabling, and here's the fun part, enabling those secondary use cases so that you can get more value out of that otherwise dormant data. Mike talked about that during the day one keynote. I thought he was spot on for that. So, that's the evolution approach. Revolution, start over, better storage, gets you the same results. Those other guys are old anyway... >> So, Bill Coleman's saying, "It's ours to lose." He said that to us on the Cube. They're obviously an evolution play. >> Jason: Yep. >> I've also heard, they've got, they've made the claim, "We've got the best engineering team in the business." Comments? >> So... >> Dave: It's a very competitive market. >> Yeah, it's hard to say best. I never like ultimate superlatives, but here's what I will say. I meet an amazing number of engineers at Veritas who have been doing this 15, 20, 25 years. There's a lot of wonderful institutional knowledge that comes out of that, that you don't get when you're three, five years, even if you come from multiple vendors, and you kind of pop along the way. There are folks that their initials are still in the source code of NetBackup, and I think that gives them an edge from that perspective if they have a vision from an architecture and from a message perspective on carrying it forward and growing beyond just backup. >> Yeah, Jason, want to get your commentary on the customers. So, one of the things we're trying to reconcile here is, they've got a lot of NetBackup customers. >> Jason: Yeah. >> And then they're pitching this new Cloud hyper-scale, distributed architecture world. Are the customers ready for that? Are they, you know, Bill Coleman told us, five years, ten years, maybe five years from now, every single product that's selling today will be obsolete. So, are the Veritas customers today ready to make that move? What are you hearing? Or are they just going to, you know, go to Microsoft and Amazon and, you know, come in that way? How does this, you know, it goes that kind of revolutionary, evolutionary, discussion you were having. >> Good read, so working backwards, I don't think the answer for better backup for the enterprise is clouding. Cloud managed, absolutely. Disaster recovery as a service, as a secondary tier for the people who don't want to have dormant data centers, yeah probably. But we're still going to have a significant majority of infrastructure on-prem that's going to demand for current SLAs to have recoverability on-prem as well. So, I don't think it starts from a Cloud angle. What I do think, from the Veritas customer perspective is, certainly, you know, Veritas is, their homies are the NetBack of admins. That role is evolving. Or maybe I should say it's devolving. You know, you're not going to have backup admins in the same way. Honestly, more and more, we see that data protection should be part of a broader system's management platform management conversation, right? Cause if I'm an IT generalist, that means I don't have a Ph.D. in backup, and I don't want one. I'm an IT generalist, and I'm the one who's responsible for provisioning servers, and patching servers, and providing access to servers. When those green lights turn red, I want to be able to be part of that process and not wait on somebody else. And if I want to be part of the recovery process, it means I better be part of the protection process as well. So, certainly, Veritas is going to have to grow into some new personas of who they're going to be adding value to. IT ops is the big one, right? So, the backup admin is starting to decline a little bit, the V-Admin for the virtualization role is starting to decline a little bit. That IT operations role is really taking a much more dominant share. That said, Veritas's best route to market is to go through the backup admin, and not in spite of because you can turn that backup admin into a hero by saying, "Look, you have a certain set of problems." "Your adjacent peers have a wider set of problems, "and aren't you going to be the smart one "to walk in somebody who can fix "the rest of the problems while we're at it." And that's that 360 story... >> Well, to your point, evolve or devolve, that role. So, we're out of time, but how about a plug for some recent research, what's hot, what's new, anything that you've worked on that you want to share with the audience. >> Yeah, so ESG, we just finished research on real world SLAs and availabilities. So, how are people doing that proactive lens, as opposed to just reactive? Today, earlier today, I kicked off research with the research team on copy data management, so all that evolution/revolution, we're in that right now. And then the next two projects we're working on, GDPR readiness and data protection drivers in Western Europe. Appliance form factors for data protection, so turnkey versus dedupe, is kind of the next one. And then we're going to refresh our Cloud Strategy Data Protection intersection, so BaaS, DRaaS, STaaS, IaaS, and SaaS, and how the protection traction moves. >> Awesome, sounds like a good lineup. I'd be interested to see that GDPR readiness. We'll have to forecast that and... >> That'll be fun. >> And then hit you up after that comes out cause there's going to be some big gaps going on there. >> Yeah. >> Hey, thanks very much for coming back in the Cube, good job. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, you're welcome. Okay, keep it right there everybody, Stu and I will be back. This is day two, Veritas Vision. You're watching the Cube.