>>Hello. And welcome back to the cubes coverage here. Live in Las Vegas for 80 bucks. Re-invent 2021. We're in person been two years since the cube has been on the ground here at a live event, it's a hybrid event. Check them out online. AWS has got to reinvent site as well as cube online. I'm Jennifer, your host got a great guest here from Latin America. Honeywell is VP of Latin America for AWS, a lot of global change, but the regions, a lot of great stuff, cultural integration. If you will, a skills people all around the world using cloud compute. Jaime's great, but coming on the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you, John. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be >>Here with you. Um, I wish I could speak in the native tongue, but I can't. I ended it, but I know online there's some special rooms that people have on the cube sites. So a lot of tech, a lot of cloud native in the world, I'm seeing Latin America and all the events we've done had great participation in the cloud ecosystem in Latin America, a lot of young talent, a lot of things happening. What's what's going on. >>Well, as you can see around us today, a lot of things are happening in the cloud. We are in this inflection point in the industry of technology that is accelerating innovation, accelerating transformation all over the world. And obviously Latin America is not an exception. We're seeing this momentum. We're seeing large enterprise companies leveraging the cloud to transform their customer experiences, to drive innovation. We're seeing startups to drive competitiveness and try to compete with the world. And that's also enabling a lot of younger generations to move faster, to innovate, to dream big and drive new ideas. So you're seeing that same momentum in Latin America, all across the region. But this is the one John and we, and we are seeing this happening for many years ahead. >>You know, I love inflection points and I've been saying this and just wrote a blog post about it on siliconangle.com that we are now at another inflection point where cloud is going next gen, where in any kind of revolution, every inflection point, this cultural revolution starts with the young people. And I've never seen an impact with Kubernetes and microservices and the modern approach of the younger generation. It's like if I was 20, that'd be a kid in the candy store. What I don't have to build land is there for me. I got to don't have to provision any servers. So the I'm seeing an impact for the younger generation around cloud and it's global phenomenon. What's what's going on in the younger talent in Latin America. Well, >>Let's just say, I mean, generations see inflection as opportunity, opportunity to make new things happen to, as I said to dream big and actually enabled their ideas to become a reality. And that's where you're seeing all across the region. You see this in Brazil, you see these in Argentina, you see this Columbia, Mexico, largest startup communities that are competing with the world. And you have, you know, we have an example like Newman that was here this morning, like started seven years ago, 2014 with a view transforming the financial services experience. That's where we're seeing all across Latin America, because >>The young kids slinging APIs around with containers. Now you've got the container movement. We had a great showing from Brazil and our DockerCon event. Um, net, very notable, um, intelligence coming out of that area. Amazing young talent. I'm just blown away by the, by the work, but in the region itself is still transformation. So I know you're, you're well known for doing really big deals at AWS. Uh, I can say that big banks, multimillion dollar deals. So there's growth there there's existing business transforming while new entrepreneurs are coming in. It's kind of a best of both worlds. What's the, what's the growth look like. >>Uh, as you mentioned, very large enterprises understand that the cloud and a transformation of culture is going to allow them to innovate them, to have loyal customers, every large enterprise customer. We're thinking about different ways to contact their customers, transforming the experience you're seeing customers like like Bancolombia that are migrating their legacy systems into the cloud in order to make faster decisions, to increase agility, to increase innovation and lead their people. Because at the end journey is all about the people that their people build on behalf of their customers and transform their experiences. >>You know, one of the things I noticed during the pandemic, and I'd love to get your reaction to this because I know you're living that as well every day, even before the pandemic, but since everything went virtual now hybrid, you're seeing a very low friction point to get in and collaborate. There's almost a new social construct, connective tissue between no boundaries. So you can have an event like here at reinvent, we're in person, but yet there's an online community digitally engaging. So we're starting to see cell formation where people around the world are getting together. How has it impacted how you manage and how you engage with your customers in your region? >>Well, as I said, it's a combination of many things. Our customers are still like people in person. That's why we have our business in Brazil. We have obviously in Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, Costa Rica, Peru, we still have presses. There we are where we work very close with our customers. We understand they need and what they want to do. But now, for example, during the last two years, I've had the opportunity to leverage in technology, be present in what we call virtual trips in most of our countries full day experiences. And I have to tell you at the beginning, I was concerned. I didn't have the opportunity to meet some of these people before today. When I see them in person here in re-invent this like, as if we had met from four. So as you say is the hybrid experience that allows us to be in-person with our customers, with our partners across the region, but also in a remote base, having the opportunity to build the same relations. And that's what technology is enabling better experience, faster innovation and moral agility and growth all across Latin America. >>So it's one of the things I talked to Adams Leschi about before reinvent a week ago, um, on a bank exclusive interview with him was he was very adamant about the clouds expanding everywhere. Honestly, you've got the edge in manufacturing, ADP percent everywhere, but he mentioned the regions, the continued growth of regions. It's been 10 years since Latin America. How's that impacted what you got going on there. And what's next from a region perspective. And how has that changed the landscape >>While you're touching? John is probably the most important thing we're seeing. You're absolutely right. We started 10 years ago, December 14 in Brazil with an office and a region there Caesar will launch offices in most of our countries. Now the important thing here is how our technology is enabling our companies, Latin American companies. We have 17 million companies in Latin America be more competitive. You know, some examples, I just mentioned Nubank, but we have that is competing with very large companies. You have Bancolombia you have GBM in Mexico. So what we're seeing is our companies be able by leveraging the latest and best technology to compete with the world and to drive that competitiveness that we need. The other thing about talent. If we enable and empower our Latin American talent or builders to build these new experiences, that's, what's going to allow the region to accelerate their growth, their competitiveness, and their social benefits. >>It was interesting too, is that you can see from the trends to do that. You can do it really fast now instantly. So it's, it's an amazing opportunity. Um, I gotta ask you while you're here, cause I'm really curious. I'm sure the viewers will be as well. What's what's going on in Latin America from a trend stamp. What's the vibe like? What's the, what's the environment like what's the, what's the mindset like there in those regions, from an entrepreneurship perspective, from a cloud enablement perspective, a cultural perspective, what's your report? How would you report on that? >>First of all, we're seeing the cloud accelerate all across Latin America. And I, and as I said, it's really day one for all of us. The other thing is that our customers are understanding that digital transformation is not a technology transformation. It's a cultural transformation leverage by leveraging technology for that to happen. It's about people. It's about mechanisms in the company. It's about the way companies make decisions. And that's why, why the power of the cloud is so important in impact to empower these people, to make things happen. In fact, what we're seeing in Latin America is CEOs of some of these companies like Bancolombia CEO is very engaged in this transformation where he's reviewing technology, he's understanding the cloud because that's how they realize or how they understand the importance of, you know, changing their companies, focused on their customers. The other thing is Latin American companies understand that they need to understand their customer needs work backwards from that and leverage that their technology, the cloud in order to improve the experiences of the >>Costumes. So I had to put you on the spot on a question. I gotta ask you, you know, if this is 10 years of re-invent, we've been here for nine. And I remember the first one we went with the second one. Wasn't many people here were like getting guests from the hallway. Hey, come on up on the cube. And now we can't, there's no open spots. Um, 15 years is how old Amazon is Amazon web services. So, so as Adam takes over and you have Amazon going in the next 15 years, what's your vision on how that evolves? Because you know, you're looking at the pandemic ending and pandemic has proven to a lot of people that digital works here, but as exposed what doesn't work, you can't hide the ball anymore if your business, but you're exposed. If you're in the cloud or you've got modern software, if no one's using it, it's not working change it. You can do it fast. So the whole hiding behind, you know, I bought this project, what this software, old guard, new guard, I mean, you can't hide the volume where, so that changes things, but also the creativity of refactoring business is also there. So you got, you got fear. I don't can't hide the ball and you're exposed to opportunity. >>What's your reaction to that? In fact, what I was going to say is where we see some opportunity. I mean, if you see 15 years side where you see, first of all, is all customers in Latin America or everywhere else leveraging the cloud. That's the most important thing. Number two, people leveraging technology to make things happen. It's about building. It's about me. And we talk about this before is when you realize that people are looking for better ways to improve their experience, launching the startups. And this is in finance, in the financial services. This is in manufacturing. This is in all the different industries across Latin America. We see opportunity. The other one, John is a region like Latin America understands that with people you need to enable them. It's about talent. And in order to enable talent, you need to educate them. So in AWS, we're actually investing a lot of time and effort to what to give them the best training content in their local language to launch programs that allow them to innovate like activate that enables to start off to launch. So what we're doing is giving Vilders younger generation tools to be more successful and again, dream big and make things happen now. So the next 15 years, Saba opportunity transforming faster decision-making agility in the way companies move and also driving competitiveness in Latin America to be able to compete in a globalized environment because everything is interconnected and it's about global reach today. And that's why we need our talent to invest, educate, to drive the transformation of the region. >>The global connectedness is a real point there. Great insight. I think the cultural revolutions here, the younger generations engaged existing businesses transforming, which means if they don't do it right, they're going to lose it to the other guy, other people. So I have, okay. Final question for you. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. I know you're busy looking at the pandemic ending. What's the major patterns that you're seeing in Latin America, around companies strategies to transform out of the pandemic, a growth strategy, because everyone I talked to was like, we're going to come out with a tailwind and we're going to be on the upward slope. Obviously they're using cloud of course, but is there a pattern of that coming out of the pandemic with an upward growth? So >>We're seeing all across Latin America companies looking for better ways to reach our customers. That is the fact traditional touch points are not enough. Now they are building on top of that. So we are seeing Latin American companies invested, transform their legacy systems in order to look for different ways to approach the customers. Number two, we're seeing Latin American companies to leverage data in order to make better, more informed and faster decisions and to scale their business and accelerate and empower their teams. We're seeing companies in Latin America, investing in tools to let their people make things happen. As I said before, cultural transformation, digital transformation is about people. It's about fast decision making and it's about leveraging the technology to make it happen. We're seeing a lot of startup communities across our countries, new ideas, taking place. And as you know, AWS has always been focused on let known supporting startups and those new ideas. So we're seeing a lot of things happen in the region. A lot of momentum, a lot of growth. And what we're seeing is the cloud enabling that growth, that opportunity that you were talking about with our view that 15 years out, a lot of new business models are going to be late making hat. They can have >>Great point. I think just to highlight that one key thing, talent, you just add talent to the cloud capabilities. You can get there faster, you do it with a team, even better. Um, collaborations changing. Just the ability to capture opportunities are now faster than when we were growing up. They have a better don't think literally that you wish you were 20. Again, I do with all this code out there. >>And that's where we say it's about the people. And I can tell you from one of our biggest investments, my biggest investments is given the talent that opportunity, given our best training content in local language so they can learn new and better ways of making things happen. So again, as I said, leveraging supporting startups to grow. So all the problems around talent for Latin American cities, for our customers and our partners, because at the end, we understand that our partners expand our solutions to the market. And these are partners that allow us to be present in the many countries that are part of Latin America. >>Well, we'd love your vision, love your, love, your, your insight. And we will have a cube region in your area, and we're going to contact you. The cube will open their doors for the Latin America community. So look for that this year. Thanks for coming on. Now, >>joining you and hosting you in our countries. You're going to see a lot of enthusiasm, passion, and growth and opportunity Latina, >>A lot of great action. The younger generations engaged the older generations transforming the business models. The cloud is going next, gen. This is the cube bringing all the live action. You're watching the queue, the leader in global tech coverage. I'm John Farrow, your host. Thanks for watching.

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to The Cube. We're here for the AWS Executive Summit part of Reinvent 2021. I'm John Farrow, your host of the Cube. We've got a great segment focus here, Art of the Possible is the segment. Jas Bains, Chief Executive at Hafod and Jamie Smith, director of research and innovation and Laetitia Cailleteau who's the global lead of conversational AI at Accenture. Thanks for joining me today for this Art of the Possible segment. >> Thank you. >> So tell us a little bit about Hafod and what you guys are doing to the community 'cause this is a really compelling story of how technology in home care is kind of changing the game and putting a stake in the ground. >> Yeah, so Hafod is one of the largest not for profits in Wales. We employ about 1400 colleagues. We have three strands a service, which practices on key demographics. So people who are vulnerable and socioeconomically disadvantaged. Our three core strands of service are affordable housing, we provide several thousand homes to people in housing need across Wales. We also are an extensive provider of social provision, both residential and in the community. And then we have a third tier, which is a hybrid in between. So that supports people who are not quite ready for independent living but neither are they ready for residential care. So that's a supportive provision. I suppose what one of the things that marks Hafod out and why we're here in this conversation is that we're uniquely placed as one of the organizations that actually has a research and innovation capacity. And it's the work of the research and innovation capacity led by Jamie that brought about this collaboration with Accenture which is great in great meaning and benefits. So thousands of our customers and hopefully universal application as it develops. >> You know this is a really an interesting discussion because multiple levels, one, the pandemic accelerated this needs so, I want to get comments on that. But two, if you look at the future of work and work and home life, you seeing the convergence of where people live. And I think this idea of having this independent home and the ecosystem around it, there's a societal impact as well. So what brought this opportunity together? How did this come together with Accenture and AWS? >> We're going for Jamie and Laetitia. >> Yeah, I can start. Well, we were trying to apply for the LC Aging Grand Challenge in the U.K., so the United Kingdom recognized the need for change around independent living and run a grand challenge. And then we got together as part of this grand challenge. You know, we had some technology, we had trialed with AGK before and Hanover Housing Association. Hafod was really keen to actually start trying some of that technology with some of the resident. And we also worked with Swansea University, was doing a lot of work around social isolation and loneliness. And we came together to kind of pitch for the grand challenge. And we went quite far actually, unfortunately we didn't win but we have built such a great collaboration that we couldn't really let it be, you know, not going any further. And we decided to continue to invest in this idea. And now we here, probably 18 months on with a number of people, Hafod using the technology and a number of feedbacks and returns coming back and us having a grand ambitions to actually go much broader and scale this solution. >> Jas and Jamie, I'd love to get your reaction and commentary on this trend of tech for good because I mean, I'm sure you didn't wake up, oh, just want to do some tech for good. You guys have an environment, you have an opportunity, you have challenges you're going to turn into opportunities. But if you look at the global landscape right now, things that are jumping out at us are looking at the impact of social media on people. You got the pandemic with isolation, this is a first order problem in this new world of how do we get technology to change how people feel and make them better in their lives. >> Yeah, I think for us, the first has to be a problem to solve. There's got to be a question to be answered. And for us, that was in this instance, how do we mitigate loneliness and how do we take services that rely on person to person contact and not particularly scalable and replicate those through technology somehow. And even if we can do 10% of the job of that in-person service then for us, it's worth it because that is scalable. And there are lots of small interventions we can make using technology which is really efficient way for us to support people in the community when we just can't be everywhere at once. >> So, John, just to add, I think that we have about 1500 people living in households that are living alone and isolated. And I think the issue for us was more than just about technology because a lot of these people don't have access to basic technology features that most of us would take for granted. So far this is a two-prong journey. One is about increasing the accessibility to tech and familiarizing people so that they're comfortable with these devices technology and two importantly, make sure that we have the right means to help people reduce their loneliness and isolation. So the opportunity to try out something over the last 12 months, something that's bespoke, that's customized that will undoubtedly be tweaked as we go forward has been an absolutely marvelous opportunity. And for us, the collaboration with Accenture has been absolutely key. I think what we've seen during COVID is cross-fertilization. We've seen multi-disciplinary teams, we've got engineers, architects, manufacturers, and clinicians, and scientists, all trying to develop new solutions around COVID. And I think this probably just exemplary bias, especially as a post COVID where industry and in our case for example public sector and academia working together. >> Yeah, that's a great example and props to everyone there. And congratulations on this really, really important initiative. Let's talk about the home care solution. What does it do? How does it work? Take us through what's happening? >> Okay, so Home Care is actually a platform which is obviously running on AWS technology and this particular platform is the service offered accessible via voice through the Alexa device. We use the Echo Show to be able to use voice but also visuals to kind of make the technology more accessible for end user. On the platform itself, we have a series of services available out there. We connecting in the background a number of services from the community. So in the particular case of Hafod, we had something around shopping during the pandemic where we had people wanting to have access to their food bank. Or we also had during the pandemic, there was some need for having access to financial coaching and things like that. So we actually brought all of the service on the platform and the skills and this skill was really learning how to interact with the end user. And it was all customized for them to be able to access those things in a very easy way. It did work almost too well because some of our end users have been a kind of you know, have not been digital literate before and it was working so well, they were like, "But why can't it do pretty much anything on the planet? "Why can't it do this or that?" So the expectations were really, really high but we did manage to bring comfort to Hafod residents in a number of their daily kind of a need, some of the things during COVID 'cause people couldn't meet face to face. There was some challenge around understanding what events are running. So the coaches would publish events, you know, through the skills and people would be able to subscribe and go to the event and meet together virtually instead of physically. The number of things that really kind of brought a voice enabled experience for those end users. >> You know, you mentioned the people like the solution just before we, I'm going to get the Jamie in a second, but I want to just bring up something that you brought up. This is a digital divide evolution because digital divide, as Josh was saying, is that none about technology,, first, you have to access, you need access, right? First, then you have to bring broadband and internet access. And then you have to get the technology in the home. But then here it seems to be a whole nother level of digital divide bridging to the new heights. >> Yeah, completely, completely. And I think that's where COVID has really accelerated the digital divide before the solution was put in place for Hafod in the sense that people couldn't move and if they were not digitally literate, it was very hard to have access to services. And now we brought this solution in the comfort of their own home and they have the access to the services that they wouldn't have had otherwise on their own. So it's definitely helping, yeah. >> It's just another example of people refactoring their lives or businesses with technology. Jamie, what's your take on the innovation here and the technical aspects of the home care solutions? >> I think the fact that it's so easy to use, it's personalized, it's a digital companion for the home. It overcomes that digital divide that we talked about, which is really important. If you've got a voice you can use home care and you can interact with it in this really simple way. And what I love about it is the fact that it was based on what our customers told us they were finding difficult during this time, during the early lockdowns of the pandemic. There was 1500 so people Jas talked about who were living alone and at risk of loneliness. Now we spoke to a good number of those through a series of welfare calls and we found out exactly what it is they found challenging. >> What were some of the things that they were finding challenging? >> So tracking how they feel on a day-to-day basis. What's my mood like, what's my wellbeing like, and knowing how that changes over time. Just keeping the fridge in the pantry stocked up. What can I cook with these basic ingredients that I've got in my home? You could be signposted to basic resources to help you with that. Staying connected to the people who are really important to you but the bit that shines out for me is the interface with our services, with our neighborhood coaching service, where we can just give these little nudges, these little interventions just to mitigate and take the edge of that loneliness for people. We can see the potential of that coming up to the pandemic, where you can really encourage people to interact with one another, to be physically active and do all of those things that sort of mitigate against loneliness. >> Let me ask you a question 'cause I think a very important point. The timing of the signaling of data is super important. Could you comment on the relevance of having access to data? If you're getting something connected, when you're connected like this, I can only imagine the benefits. It's all about timing, right? Knowing that someone might be thinking some way or whether it's a tactical, in any scenario, timing of data, the right place at the right time, as they say. What's your take on that 'cause it sounds like what you're saying is that you can see things early when people are in the moment. >> Yeah, exactly. So if there's a trend beginning to emerge, for example, around some of these wellbeing, which has been on a low trajectory for a number of days, that can raise a red flag in our system and it alerts one of our neighborhood coaches just to reach out to that person and say, "Well, John, what's going on? "You haven't been out for a walk for a few days. "We know you like to walk, what's happening?" And these early warning signs are really important when we think of the long-term effects of loneliness and how getting upstream of those, preventing it reaching a point where it moves from being a problem into being a crisis. And the earlier we can detect that the more chance we've got of these negative long-term outcomes being mitigated. >> You know, one of the things we see in the cloud business is kind of separate track but it kind of relates to the real world here that you're doing, is automation and AI and machine learning bringing in a lot of value if applied properly. So how are you guys seeing, I can almost imagine that patterns are coming in, right? Do you see patterns in the data? How does AI and analytics technology improve this process especially with the wellbeing and emotional wellbeing of the elderly? >> I think one of the things we've learned through the pilot study we've done is there's not one size fits all. You know, all those people are very different individuals. They have very different habits. You know, there's some people not sleeping over the night. There's some people wanting to be out early, wanting to be social. Some people you have to put in much more. So it's definitely not one size fits all. And automation and digitalization of those kinds of services is really challenging because if they're not personalized, it doesn't really catch the interest or the need of the individuals. So for me as an IT professional being in the industry for like a 20 plus years, I think this is the time where personalization has really a true meaning. Personalization at scale for those people that are not digitally literate. But also in more vulnerable settings 'cause there's just so many different angles that can make them vulnerable. Maybe it's the body, maybe it's the economy position, their social condition, there's so many variation of all of that. So I think this is one of the use case that has to be powered by technology to complement the human side of it. If we really want to start scaling the services we provide to people in general, meaning obviously, in all the Western country now we all growing old, it's no secret. So in 20 years time the majority of everybody will be old and we obviously need people to take care of us. And at the moment we don't have that population to take care of us coming up. So really to crack on those kinds of challenges, we really need to have technology powering and just helping the human side to make it more efficient, connected than human. >> It's interesting. I just did a story where you have these bots that look at the facial recognition via cameras and can detect either in hospitals and or in care patients, how they feel. So you see where this is going. Jas I got to ask you how all this changes, the home care model and how Hafod works. Your workforce, the career's culture, the consortium you guys are bringing to the table, partners, you know this is an ecosystem now, it's a system. >> Yes John, I think that probably, it's also worth talking a little bit about the pressures on state governments around public health issues which are coming to the fore. And clearly we need to develop alternative ways that we engage with mass audiences and technology is going to be absolutely key. One of the challenges I still think that we've not resolved in the U.K. level, this is probably a global issue, is about data protection. When we're talking to cross governmental agencies, it's about sharing data and establishing protocols and we've enjoyed a few challenging conversations with colleagues around data protection. So I think those need to be set out in the context of the journey of this particular project. I think that what's interesting around COVID is that, hasn't materially changed the nature in which we do things, probably not in our focus and our work remains the same. But what we're seeing is very clear evidence of the ways, I mean, who would have thought that 12 months ago, the majority of our workforce would be working from home? So rapid mobilization to ensure that people can use, set IT home effectively. And then how does that relationship impact with people in the communities we're serving? Some of whom have got access to technology, others who haven't. So that's been, I think the biggest change, and that is a fundamental change in the design and delivery of future services that organizations like us will be providing. So I would say that overall, some things remain the same by and large but technology is having an absolutely profound change in the way that our engagement with customers will go forward. >> Well, you guys are in the front end of some massive innovation here with this, are they possible and that, you're really delivering impact. And I think this is an example of that. And you brought up the data challenges, this is something that you guys call privacy by design. This is a cutting edge issue here because there are benefits around managing privacy properly. And I think here, your solution clearly has value, right? And no one can debate that, but as these little blockers get in the way, what's your reaction to that? 'Cause this certainly is something that has to be solved. I mean, it's a problem. >> Yeah, so we designed a solution, I think we had, when we design, I co-designed with your end-users actually. We had up to 14 lawyers working with us at one point in time looking at different kinds of angles. So definitely really tackle the solution with privacy by design in mind and with end users but obviously you can't co-design with thousands of people, you have to co-design with a representative subset of a cohort. And some of the challenge we find is obviously, the media have done a lot of scaremongering around technology, AI and all of that kind of things, especially for people that are not necessarily digitally literate, people that are just not in it. And when we go and deploy the solution, people are a little bit worried. When we make them, we obviously explain to them what's going to happen if they're happy, if they want to consent and all that kind of things. But the people are scared, they're just jumping on a technology on top of it we're asking them some questions around consent. So I think it's just that the solution is super secured and we've gone over millions of hoops within Accenture but also with Hafod itself. You know, it's more that like the type of user we deploying the solution to are just not in that world and then they are little bit worried about sharing. Not only they're worried about sharing with us but you know, in home care, there there's an option as well to share some of that data with your family. And there we also see people are kind of okay to share with us but they don't want to share with their family 'cause they don't want to have too much information kind of going potentially worrying or bothering some of their family member. So there is definitely a huge education kind of angle to embracing the technology. Not only when you create the solution but when you actually deploy it with users. >> It's a fabulous project, I am so excited by this story. It's a great story, has all the elements; technology, innovation, cidal impact, data privacy, social interactions, whether it's with family members and others, internal, external. In teams themselves. You guys doing some amazing work, thank you for sharing. It's a great project, we'll keep track of it. My final question for you guys is what comes next for the home care after the trial? What are Hafod's plans and hopes for the future? >> Maybe if I just give an overview and then invite Jamie and Laetitia. So for us, without conversations, you don't create possibilities and this really is a reflection of the culture that we try to engender. So my ask of my team is to remain curious, is to continue to explore opportunities because it's home care up to today, it could be something else tomorrow. We also recognize that we live in a world of collaboration. We need more cross industrial partnerships. We love to explore more things that Accenture, Amazon, others as well. So that's principally what I will be doing is ensuring that the culture invites us and then I hand over to the clever people like Jamie and Laetitia to get on with the technology. I think for me we've already learned an awful lot about home care and there's clearly a lot more we can learn. We'd love to build on this initial small-scale trial and see how home care could work at a bigger scale. So how would it work with thousands of users? How do we scale it up from a cohort of 50 to a cohort of 5,000? How does it work when we bring different kinds of organizations into that mix? So what if, for example, we could integrate it into health care? So a variety of services can have a holistic view of an individual and interact with one another, to put that person on the right pathway and maybe keep them out of the health and care system for longer, actually reducing the costs to the system in the long run and improving that person's outcomes. That kind of evidence speaks to decision-makers and political partners and I think that's the kind of evidence we need to build. >> Yeah, financial impact is there, it's brutal. It's a great financial impact for the system. Efficiency, better care, everything. >> Yeah and we are 100% on board for whatever comes next. >> Laetitia-- >> What about you Laetitia? >> Great program you got there. A amazing story, thank you for sharing. Congratulations on this awesome project. So much to unpack here. I think this is the future. I mean, I think this is a case study of represents all the moving parts that need to be worked on, so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We are the Art of the Possible here inside the Cube, part of AWS Reinvent Executive Summit, I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to The Cube. We're here for the AWS Executive Summit part of Reinvent 2021. I'm John Farrow, your host of the Cube. We've got a great segment focus here, Art of the Possible is the segment. Jas Bains, Chief Executive at Hafod and Jamie Smith, director of research and innovation and Laetitia Cailleteau who's the global lead of conversational AI at Accenture. Thanks for joining me today for this Art of the Possible segment. >> Thank you. >> So tell us a little bit about Hafod and what you guys are doing to the community 'cause this is a really compelling story of how technology in home care is kind of changing the game and putting a stake in the ground. >> Yeah, so Hafod is one of the largest not for profits in Wales. We employ about 1400 colleagues. We have three strands a service, which practices on key demographics. So people who are vulnerable and socioeconomically disadvantaged. Our three core strands of service are affordable housing, we provide several thousand homes to people in housing need across Wales. We also are an extensive provider of social provision, both residential and in the community. And then we have a third tier, which is a hybrid in between. So that supports people who are not quite ready for independent living but neither are they ready for residential care. So that's a supportive provision. I suppose what one of the things that marks Hafod out and why we're here in this conversation is that we're uniquely placed as one of the organizations that actually has a research and innovation capacity. And it's the work of the research and innovation capacity led by Jamie that brought about this collaboration with Accenture which is great in great meaning and benefits. So thousands of our customers and hopefully universal application as it develops. >> You know this is a really an interesting discussion because multiple levels, one, the pandemic accelerated this needs so, I want to get comments on that. But two, if you look at the future of work and work and home life, you seeing the convergence of where people live. And I think this idea of having this independent home and the ecosystem around it, there's a societal impact as well. So what brought this opportunity together? How did this come together with Accenture and AWS? >> We're going for Jamie and Laetitia. >> Yeah, I can start. Well, we were trying to apply for the LC Aging Grand Challenge in the U.K., so the United Kingdom recognized the need for change around independent living and run a grand challenge. And then we got together as part of this grand challenge. You know, we had some technology, we had trialed with AGK before and Hanover Housing Association. Hafod was really keen to actually start trying some of that technology with some of the resident. And we also worked with Swansea University, was doing a lot of work around social isolation and loneliness. And we came together to kind of pitch for the grand challenge. And we went quite far actually, unfortunately we didn't win but we have built such a great collaboration that we couldn't really let it be, you know, not going any further. And we decided to continue to invest in this idea. And now we here, probably 18 months on with a number of people, Hafod using the technology and a number of feedbacks and returns coming back and us having a grand ambitions to actually go much broader and scale this solution. >> Jas and Jamie, I'd love to get your reaction and commentary on this trend of tech for good because I mean, I'm sure you didn't wake up, oh, just want to do some tech for good. You guys have an environment, you have an opportunity, you have challenges you're going to turn into opportunities. But if you look at the global landscape right now, things that are jumping out at us are looking at the impact of social media on people. You got the pandemic with isolation, this is a first order problem in this new world of how do we get technology to change how people feel and make them better in their lives. >> Yeah, I think for us, the first has to be a problem to solve. There's got to be a question to be answered. And for us, that was in this instance, how do we mitigate loneliness and how do we take services that rely on person to person contact and not particularly scalable and replicate those through technology somehow. And even if we can do 10% of the job of that in-person service then for us, it's worth it because that is scalable. And there are lots of small interventions we can make using technology which is really efficient way for us to support people in the community when we just can't be everywhere at once. >> So, John, just to add, I think that we have about 1500 people living in households that are living alone and isolated. And I think the issue for us was more than just about technology because a lot of these people don't have access to basic technology features that most of us would take for granted. So far this is a two-prong journey. One is about increasing the accessibility to tech and familiarizing people so that they're comfortable with these devices technology and two importantly, make sure that we have the right means to help people reduce their loneliness and isolation. So the opportunity to try out something over the last 12 months, something that's bespoke, that's customized that will undoubtedly be tweaked as we go forward has been an absolutely marvelous opportunity. And for us, the collaboration with Accenture has been absolutely key. I think what we've seen during COVID is cross-fertilization. We've seen multi-disciplinary teams, we've got engineers, architects, manufacturers, and clinicians, and scientists, all trying to develop new solutions around COVID. And I think this probably just exemplary bias, especially as a post COVID where industry and in our case for example public sector and academia working together. >> Yeah, that's a great example and props to everyone there. And congratulations on this really, really important initiative. Let's talk about the home care solution. What does it do? How does it work? Take us through what's happening? >> Okay, so Home Care is actually a platform which is obviously running on AWS technology and this particular platform is the service offered accessible via voice through the Alexa device. We use the Echo Show to be able to use voice but also visuals to kind of make the technology more accessible for end user. On the platform itself, we have a series of services available out there. We connecting in the background a number of services from the community. So in the particular case of Hafod, we had something around shopping during the pandemic where we had people wanting to have access to their food bank. Or we also had during the pandemic, there was some need for having access to financial coaching and things like that. So we actually brought all of the service on the platform and the skills and this skill was really learning how to interact with the end user. And it was all customized for them to be able to access those things in a very easy way. It did work almost too well because some of our end users have been a kind of you know, have not been digital literate before and it was working so well, they were like, "But why can't it do pretty much anything on the planet? "Why can't it do this or that?" So the expectations were really, really high but we did manage to bring comfort to Hafod residents in a number of their daily kind of a need, some of the things during COVID 'cause people couldn't meet face to face. There was some challenge around understanding what events are running. So the coaches would publish events, you know, through the skills and people would be able to subscribe and go to the event and meet together virtually instead of physically. The number of things that really kind of brought a voice enabled experience for those end users. >> You know, you mentioned the people like the solution just before we, I'm going to get the Jamie in a second, but I want to just bring up something that you brought up. This is a digital divide evolution because digital divide, as Josh was saying, is that none about technology,, first, you have to access, you need access, right? First, then you have to bring broadband and internet access. And then you have to get the technology in the home. But then here it seems to be a whole nother level of digital divide bridging to the new heights. >> Yeah, completely, completely. And I think that's where COVID has really accelerated the digital divide before the solution was put in place for Hafod in the sense that people couldn't move and if they were not digitally literate, it was very hard to have access to services. And now we brought this solution in the comfort of their own home and they have the access to the services that they wouldn't have had otherwise on their own. So it's definitely helping, yeah. >> It's just another example of people refactoring their lives or businesses with technology. Jamie, what's your take on the innovation here and the technical aspects of the home care solutions? >> I think the fact that it's so easy to use, it's personalized, it's a digital companion for the home. It overcomes that digital divide that we talked about, which is really important. If you've got a voice you can use home care and you can interact with it in this really simple way. And what I love about it is the fact that it was based on what our customers told us they were finding difficult during this time, during the early lockdowns of the pandemic. There was 1500 so people Jas talked about who were living alone and at risk of loneliness. Now we spoke to a good number of those through a series of welfare calls and we found out exactly what it is they found challenging. >> What were some of the things that they were finding challenging? >> So tracking how they feel on a day-to-day basis. What's my mood like, what's my wellbeing like, and knowing how that changes over time. Just keeping the fridge in the pantry stocked up. What can I cook with these basic ingredients that I've got in my home? You could be signposted to basic resources to help you with that. Staying connected to the people who are really important to you but the bit that shines out for me is the interface with our services, with our neighborhood coaching service, where we can just give these little nudges, these little interventions just to mitigate and take the edge of that loneliness for people. We can see the potential of that coming up to the pandemic, where you can really encourage people to interact with one another, to be physically active and do all of those things that sort of mitigate against loneliness. >> Let me ask you a question 'cause I think a very important point. The timing of the signaling of data is super important. Could you comment on the relevance of having access to data? If you're getting something connected, when you're connected like this, I can only imagine the benefits. It's all about timing, right? Knowing that someone might be thinking some way or whether it's a tactical, in any scenario, timing of data, the right place at the right time, as they say. What's your take on that 'cause it sounds like what you're saying is that you can see things early when people are in the moment. >> Yeah, exactly. So if there's a trend beginning to emerge, for example, around some of these wellbeing, which has been on a low trajectory for a number of days, that can raise a red flag in our system and it alerts one of our neighborhood coaches just to reach out to that person and say, "Well, John, what's going on? "You haven't been out for a walk for a few days. "We know you like to walk, what's happening?" And these early warning signs are really important when we think of the long-term effects of loneliness and how getting upstream of those, preventing it reaching a point where it moves from being a problem into being a crisis. And the earlier we can detect that the more chance we've got of these negative long-term outcomes being mitigated. >> You know, one of the things we see in the cloud business is kind of separate track but it kind of relates to the real world here that you're doing, is automation and AI and machine learning bringing in a lot of value if applied properly. So how are you guys seeing, I can almost imagine that patterns are coming in, right? Do you see patterns in the data? How does AI and analytics technology improve this process especially with the wellbeing and emotional wellbeing of the elderly? >> I think one of the things we've learned through the pilot study we've done is there's not one size fits all. You know, all those people are very different individuals. They have very different habits. You know, there's some people not sleeping over the night. There's some people wanting to be out early, wanting to be social. Some people you have to put in much more. So it's definitely not one size fits all. And automation and digitalization of those kinds of services is really challenging because if they're not personalized, it doesn't really catch the interest or the need of the individuals. So for me as an IT professional being in the industry for like a 20 plus years, I think this is the time where personalization has really a true meaning. Personalization at scale for those people that are not digitally literate. But also in more vulnerable settings 'cause there's just so many different angles that can make them vulnerable. Maybe it's the body, maybe it's the economy position, their social condition, there's so many variation of all of that. So I think this is one of the use case that has to be powered by technology to complement the human side of it. If we really want to start scaling the services we provide to people in general, meaning obviously, in all the Western country now we all growing old, it's no secret. So in 20 years time the majority of everybody will be old and we obviously need people to take care of us. And at the moment we don't have that population to take care of us coming up. So really to crack on those kinds of challenges, we really need to have technology powering and just helping the human side to make it more efficient, connected than human. >> It's interesting. I just did a story where you have these bots that look at the facial recognition via cameras and can detect either in hospitals and or in care patients, how they feel. So you see where this is going. Jas I got to ask you how all this changes, the home care model and how Hafod works. Your workforce, the career's culture, the consortium you guys are bringing to the table, partners, you know this is an ecosystem now, it's a system. >> Yes John, I think that probably, it's also worth talking a little bit about the pressures on state governments around public health issues which are coming to the fore. And clearly we need to develop alternative ways that we engage with mass audiences and technology is going to be absolutely key. One of the challenges I still think that we've not resolved in the U.K. level, this is probably a global issue, is about data protection. When we're talking to cross governmental agencies, it's about sharing data and establishing protocols and we've enjoyed a few challenging conversations with colleagues around data protection. So I think those need to be set out in the context of the journey of this particular project. I think that what's interesting around COVID is that, hasn't materially changed the nature in which we do things, probably not in our focus and our work remains the same. But what we're seeing is very clear evidence of the ways, I mean, who would have thought that 12 months ago, the majority of our workforce would be working from home? So rapid mobilization to ensure that people can use, set IT home effectively. And then how does that relationship impact with people in the communities we're serving? Some of whom have got access to technology, others who haven't. So that's been, I think the biggest change, and that is a fundamental change in the design and delivery of future services that organizations like us will be providing. So I would say that overall, some things remain the same by and large but technology is having an absolutely profound change in the way that our engagement with customers will go forward. >> Well, you guys are in the front end of some massive innovation here with this, are they possible and that, you're really delivering impact. And I think this is an example of that. And you brought up the data challenges, this is something that you guys call privacy by design. This is a cutting edge issue here because there are benefits around managing privacy properly. And I think here, your solution clearly has value, right? And no one can debate that, but as these little blockers get in the way, what's your reaction to that? 'Cause this certainly is something that has to be solved. I mean, it's a problem. >> Yeah, so we designed a solution, I think we had, when we design, I co-designed with your end-users actually. We had up to 14 lawyers working with us at one point in time looking at different kinds of angles. So definitely really tackle the solution with privacy by design in mind and with end users but obviously you can't co-design with thousands of people, you have to co-design with a representative subset of a cohort. And some of the challenge we find is obviously, the media have done a lot of scaremongering around technology, AI and all of that kind of things, especially for people that are not necessarily digitally literate, people that are just not in it. And when we go and deploy the solution, people are a little bit worried. When we make them, we obviously explain to them what's going to happen if they're happy, if they want to consent and all that kind of things. But the people are scared, they're just jumping on a technology on top of it we're asking them some questions around consent. So I think it's just that the solution is super secured and we've gone over millions of hoops within Accenture but also with Hafod itself. You know, it's more that like the type of user we deploying the solution to are just not in that world and then they are little bit worried about sharing. Not only they're worried about sharing with us but you know, in home care, there there's an option as well to share some of that data with your family. And there we also see people are kind of okay to share with us but they don't want to share with their family 'cause they don't want to have too much information kind of going potentially worrying or bothering some of their family member. So there is definitely a huge education kind of angle to embracing the technology. Not only when you create the solution but when you actually deploy it with users. >> It's a fabulous project, I am so excited by this story. It's a great story, has all the elements; technology, innovation, cidal impact, data privacy, social interactions, whether it's with family members and others, internal, external. In teams themselves. You guys doing some amazing work, thank you for sharing. It's a great project, we'll keep track of it. My final question for you guys is what comes next for the home care after the trial? What are Hafod's plans and hopes for the future? >> Maybe if I just give an overview and then invite Jamie and Laetitia. So for us, without conversations, you don't create possibilities and this really is a reflection of the culture that we try to engender. So my ask of my team is to remain curious, is to continue to explore opportunities because it's home care up to today, it could be something else tomorrow. We also recognize that we live in a world of collaboration. We need more cross industrial partnerships. We love to explore more things that Accenture, Amazon, others as well. So that's principally what I will be doing is ensuring that the culture invites us and then I hand over to the clever people like Jamie and Laetitia to get on with the technology. I think for me we've already learned an awful lot about home care and there's clearly a lot more we can learn. We'd love to build on this initial small-scale trial and see how home care could work at a bigger scale. So how would it work with thousands of users? How do we scale it up from a cohort of 50 to a cohort of 5,000? How does it work when we bring different kinds of organizations into that mix? So what if, for example, we could integrate it into health care? So a variety of services can have a holistic view of an individual and interact with one another, to put that person on the right pathway and maybe keep them out of the health and care system for longer, actually reducing the costs to the system in the long run and improving that person's outcomes. That kind of evidence speaks to decision-makers and political partners and I think that's the kind of evidence we need to build. >> Yeah, financial impact is there, it's brutal. It's a great financial impact for the system. Efficiency, better care, everything. >> Yeah and we are 100% on board for whatever comes next. >> Laetitia-- >> What about you Laetitia? >> Great program you got there. A amazing story, thank you for sharing. Congratulations on this awesome project. So much to unpack here. I think this is the future. I mean, I think this is a case study of represents all the moving parts that need to be worked on, so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We are the Art of the Possible here inside the Cube, part of AWS Reinvent Executive Summit, I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(Upbeat music) >> Hi everyone and welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Splunk.conf 2021, virtual. We are here, live in the Splunk studios here in Silicon valley. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. Spiros Xanthos VP of product management of observability with Splunk is here inside the cube, Spiros, thanks for coming on. Great to see you. [Spiros Xanthos]- John, thanks for having me glad to be here. >> We love observability. Of course we love Kubernetes, but that was before observability became popular. We've been covering cube-con since it was invented even before, during the OpenStack days, a lot of open source momentum with you guys with observability and also in the customer base. So I want to thank you for coming on. Give us the update. What is the observability story its clearly in the headlines of all the stories SiliconANGLE's headline is multi-cloud observability security Splunk doubling down on all three. >> Correct. >> Big part of the story is observability. >> Correct. And you mentioned CubeCon. I was there last week as well. It seems that those observability and security are the two most common buzzwords you hear these days different from how it was when we started it. But yeah, Splank actually has made the huge investment in observability, starting with the acquisition of Victor ops three years ago, and then with Omnition and Signalfx. And last year with Plumbr synthetics company called Rigor and Flowmill and a network monitoring company. And plus a lot of organic investment we've made over the last two years to essentially build an end-to-end observability platform that brings together metrics, traces, and logs, or otherwise infrastructure monitoring, log analytics, application monitoring. Visual experience monitoring all in one platform to monitor let's say traditional legacy and modern cloud native apps. >> For the folks that know SiliconANGLE, the Cube know we've been really following this from the beginning for signal effects, remember when they started they never changed their course. they've had the right They have the right history and from spot by spot, you guys, same way open source and cloud was poo-pooed upon, people went like, oh, it's not secure, they never were. Now it's the center of all the action. [Spiros Xanthos]- Yes >> And so that's really cool. And thanks for doing that. The other thing I want to get your point on is what does end-to-end observability mean? Because there's a lot of observability companies out there right now saying, Hey, we're the solution We're the utility, we're the tool, but I haven't seen a platform. So what's your answer to that? >> Yes. So observability, in my opinion, in the context of what you're describing means two things. One is that when, when we say internal durability, it means that instead of having, let's say multiple monitoring tools that are silent, let's say one for monitoring network, one for monitoring infrastructure, a separate one for monitoring APM that do not work with each other. We bring all of these telemetry in one place we connect it and exactly because actually applications and infrastructure themselves are becoming one. You have a way to monitor all of it from one place. So that's observability. But the other thing that observability also is because these environments tend to be a lot more complex. It's not just about connecting them, right? It's also about having enough data and enough analytics to be able to make sense out of those environments and solve problems faster than you could do in the past with traditional monitoring. >> That's a great definition. I've got to then ask you one of the things coming up that came out of CoopCon was clear, is that the personnel to hire, to run this stuff, it's not everyone can get the skills gap problem. At the same time, automation is at an all time high people are automating and doing AI ops, get outs. What do you want to call this a buzz word for that basically automating the data observability into the CICB pipeline, huge trend right now. And the speed of developers is fast now. They're coding fast. They don't want to wait. >> I agree. So, and that's exactly what's happening, right? We want essentially from traditional IT where developers would develop something a little bit deployed months later by some IT professional, of course, all of this coming together, But we're not stopping that as you say, right, that the shifting left is going earlier into the pipeline. Everyone expect, essentially let's say monitoring to happen at the speed of deployment. And I guess observability again, is this not, as a requirement. Observability is this idea. Let's say that I should be able to monitor my applications in real time and, you know, get information as soon as something happens. >> With the evolution of the shift left trend. I would say for the people don't know what shift left is you put security the beginning, not bolted on at the end and developers can do it with automation, all that good stuff that they have. But how, how real is that right now in terms of it happening? Can you, can you share some vision and ideas and anecdotal data on how, how fast shift left is, or is there still bottlenecks and security groups and IT groups? >> So there are bottlenecks for sure. In my opinion, we are aware with, let's say the shift left or the dev sec ops trend, whether IT and devs maybe a few years ago. And this is both a cultural evolution that has to happen. So security teams and developers have to come closer together, understand like, say the consensus of the requirements of each other so they can work better together the way it happened with DevOps and all sorts of tooling problem, right? Like still observability or monitoring solutions are not working very well with security yet. We at Splunk of course, make this a priority. And we have the platform to integrate all the data in one place. But I don't think is generally something that we'll have achieved as well as an industry yet. And including the cultural aspects of it. >> Is that why you think end to end is important to hit that piece there so that people feel like it's all working together >> I think end to end is important for two reasons. actually one is that essentially, as you say, you hit all the pieces from the point of deployment, let's say all the way to production, but it's also because I think applications and infrastructure, FMLA infrastructure with Kubernetes, microservices are in traditional so much more complexity that you need to step function improvement in the tooling as well. Right? So that you need keep up with the complexity. So bringing everything together and applying analytics on top is the way essentially to have this step function improvement in how your monitoring solution works so that it can keep up with the complexity of the underlying infrastructure and application. >> That is a huge, huge points Spiros. I got to double down on that with you and say, let's expand that because that's the number one problem, taming the complexity without slowing down. Right? So what is the best practice for that? What do people do? Cause, I mean, I know it's evolving, it's going faster than that, but it's still getting better, but not always there, but what can people do to go faster? >> So, and I will add that it's even more complex than just what the cloud, let's say, native applications introduced because especially large enterprises have to maintain their routine, that on-prem footprint legacy applications that are still in production and then still expand. So it's additive to what they have today, right? If somebody was to start from a clean slate, let's say started with Kubernetes today, maybe yes, we have the cloud native tooling to monitor that, but that's not the reality of most, most enterprises out there. Right? So I think our goal at Splunk at least is to be able to essentially work with our customers through their digital, digital transformation and cloud journey. So to be able to support all their existing applications, but also help them bring those to the cloud and develop new applications in a cloud native fashion, let's say, and we have the tooling, I think, to support all of that, right between let's say our original data platform and our metrics and traces platform that we develop further. >> That's awesome. And then one quick question on the customer side, if I'm a customer, I want observability, I want this, I want everything you just said. How do I tell the difference between a pretender and a player, the good solution and a bad solution? What are the signals that this is the real deal, that's a fake product >> Agreed. So, I mean, everyone obviously believes that original (laughing) I'm not sure if I will. >> You don't want to name names? Here's my, my perspective on what truly is a requirement for absorb-ability right? First of all, I think we have moved past the time where let's say proprietary instrumentation and data collection was a differentiator. In fact, it actually is a problem today, if you are deploying that because it creates silos, right? If I have a proprietary instrumentation approach for my application, that data cannot be connected to my infrastructure or my logs, let's say, right. So that's why we believe open telemetry is the future. And we start there in terms of data collection. Once we standardize, let's say data collection, then the problem moves to analytics. And that's, I think where the future is, right? So observability is not just about collecting a bunch of data and that bring it back to the user. It's about making sense out of this data, right? So the name of the game is analytics and machine learning on top of the data. And of course the more data you can collect, the better it is from that perspective. And of course, then when we're talking about enterprises, scale controls, compliance all of these matter. And I think real time matters a lot as well, right? We cannot be alerting people after minutes of a problem that has happened, but within a few seconds, if we wanted to really be pro-active. >> I think one thing I like to throw out there, maybe get your reaction to it, I think maybe one other thing might be enabling the customer to code on top of it, because I think trying to own the vertical stack as well as is also risky as a vendor to sell to a company, having the ability to add programming ability on top of it. >> I completely agree actually, You do? In general giving more control to the users and how, what do they do with their data, let's say, right? And even allowing them to use open source, whatever is appropriate for them, right? In combination, maybe with a vendor solution when they don't want to invest themselves. >> Build their own apps, build your own experience. That's the way the world works. That's software. >> I agree. And again, Splunk from the beginning was about that, right? Like we'll have thousands of apps built ontop of our platform >> Awesome. Well, I want to talk about open source and the work you're doing with open telemetry. I think that's super important. Again, go back even five, 10 years ago. Oh my God. The cloud's not secure. Oh my God, open source has got security holes. It turns out it's actually the opposite now. So, you know finally through the people woke up. No, but it's gotten better. So take us through the open telemetry and what you guys are doing with that. >> Yes. So first of all, my belief, my personal belief is that if there is no future where infrastructure is anything about open source, right? Because people do not trust actually close our solutions in terms of security. They prefer open source at this point. So I think that's the future. And in that sense, a few years ago, I guess our belief was that all data collection instrumentations with standards based first of all, so that the users have control and second should be open source. That's why we, at Omnition the company I co-founded that was acquired by Splunk. We we're one of the main tenders of open sensors and that we brought together open sensors and OpenTracing in creating open telemetry. And now , Open telemetry is pretty much the de facto. Every vendor supports it, its the second most active project in CNCF. And I think it's the future, right? Both because it frees up the data and breaks up the silos, but also because, has support from all the vendors. It's impossible for any single vendor to keep up with all this complexity and compete with the entire industry when we all come together. So I think it's a great success it's I guess, kudos to everybody, kudos to CNCF as well, that was able to actually create and some others. >> And props to CNCF. Yeah. CNC has done an amazing job and been going to all those events all the years and all the innovations has been phenomenal. I got to ask what the silos, since you brought it up, come multiple times. And again, I think this is important just to kind of put an exclamation point on, machine learning is based upon data. Okay. If you have silos, you have the high risk of having bad machine learning. >> Yes. >> Okay. That's you agree with that? >> Completely. >> So customers, they kind of understand this, right. If you have silos that equals bad future >> Correct >> because machine learning is baked into everything now. >> And I will add to that. So silos is the one problem, and then not being able to have all the data is another problem, right? When it comes to being able to make sense out of it. So we're big believers in what we call full fidelity. So being able to connect every byte of data and do it in a way that makes sense, obviously economically for the customer, but also have, let's say high signal to noise ratio, right? By structuring the data at the source. Overt telemetry is another contributor to that. And by collecting all the data and by having an ability, let's say to connect the data together, metrics, traces, logs, events, incidents, then we can actually build a little more effective tooling on top to provide answers back to the user with high confidence. So then users can start trusting the answers as opposed to they themselves, always having to figure out what the problem is. And I think that's the future. And we're just starting. >> Spiros I want to ask you now, my final question is about culture And you know, when you have scale with the cloud and data, goodness, where you have people actually know the value of data and they incorporate into their application, you have advantages. You have competitive advantages in some cases, but developers were just coding love dev ops because it's infrastructure as code. They don't have to get into the weeds and do the under the hood, datas have that same phenomenon right now where people want access to data. But there's certain departments like security departments and IT groups holding back and slowing down the developers who are waiting days and weeks when they want it in minutes and seconds for have these kinds of things. So the trend is, well there's, first of all, there's the culture of people aren't getting along and they're hating each other or they're not liking each other. >> Yes >> There's a little conflict, always kind of been there, but now more than ever, because why wait? >> I agree. >> How can companies shorten that cycle? Make it more cohesive, still decouple the groups because you've got, you got compliance. How do you maximize the best of a good security group, a good IT group and enables as fast as possible developers. >> I agree with you, by the way, this is primarily cultural. And then of course there is a tooling gap as well. Right. But I think we have to understand, let's say as a security group, instead of developers, what are the needs of each other, right. Why we're doing the things we're doing because everybody has the right intentions to some extent, right? But the truth is there is pain. We are me and myself. Like as we develop our own solutions in a cloud native fashion, we see that right. We want to move as fast as possible, but at the same time, want to be compliant and secure, right. And we cannot compromise actually on security or compliance. I mean, that's really the wrong solution here. So I think we need to come together, understand what each other is trying to do and provide. And actually we need to build better tooling that doesn't get into the way. Today, oftentimes it's painful to have, let's say a compliance solution or a secure solution because it slows down development. I think we need to actually, again, maybe a step function improvement in the type of tooling we'll have in this space. So it doesn't get into the way Right? It does the work it provides. Let's say the security, the security team requires, it provides the guarantees there, but doesn't get in the way of developers. And today it doesn't happen like this most of the time. So we have some ways to go. >> And Garth has mentioning how you guys got some machine learning around different products is one policy kind of give some, you know, open, you know, guardrails for the developers to bounce around and do things until they, until they have to put a new policy in place. Is that an answer automated with automation? >> Big time. Automation is a big part of the answer, right? I think we need to have tooling that first of all works quickly and provides the answers we need. And we'll have to have a way to verify that the answer are in place without slowing down developers.Splunk is, I mean, out of a utility of DevSecOps in particular is around that, right? That we need to do it in a way that doesn't get in the way of, of let's say the developer and the velocity at which they're trying to move, but also at the same time, collect all the data and make sure, you know, we know what's going on in the environment. >> Is AI ops and dev sec ops and GET ops all the same thing in your mind, or is it all just labels >> It's not necessarily the same thing because I think AI ops, in my opinion applies, let's say to even more traditional environments, what are you going to automate? Let's say IT workflows in like legacy applications and infrastructure. Getops in my mind is maybe the equivalent when you're talking about like cloud native solutions, but as a concept, potentially they are very close I guess. >> Well, great stuff. Great insight. Thanks for coming on the Cube. Final point is what's your take this year of the live we're in person, but it's virtual, we're streaming out. It's kind of a hybrid media environment. Splunk's now in the media business with the studios, everything great announcements. What's your takeaway from the keynote this week? What's your, you got to share to the audience, this week's summary. >> First of all, I really hope next year, we're all going to be in one place, but still given the limitations we had I think it was a great production and thanks to everybody who was involved. So my key takeaway is that we truly actually have moved to the data age and data is at the heart of everything we do. Right? And I think Splunk has always been that as a company, but I think we ourselves really embraced that and everything we do is everything. Most of the problems we solve are data problems, whether it's security, observability, DevSecOps, et cetera. So. >> Yeah, and I would say, I would add to that by saying that my observations during the pandemic now we're coming, hopefully to the end of it, you guys have been continuing to ship code and with real, not vaporware real product, the demos were real. And then the success on the open source. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thanks for coming on and we appreciate it >> Thanks alot _Cube coverage here at dot com Splunk annual conference. Virtual is the Cube. We're here live at the studios here at Splunk studios for their event. I'm John Farrow with the Cube. Thanks for watching. (joyful tune)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the Cubes coverage of Mobile World Congress, 2021. We are here in person in Barcelona, as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. You're going to have the physical space in Barcelona for the first time, since 2019 and virtual worlds connecting. I've got a great guest here from Google, Shailesh Shukla, Vice President General Manager of the networking team, Google Cloud. Shailesh, great to see you. Thank you for coming on the Cube for the special presentation for Mobile World Congress. As the edge networking core edge human devices, all coming together, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. It's great to see you again. And it's always a pleasure talking to "theCUBE" and I wanted to say hello to everybody from, you know, in mobile world Congress. >> Yeah, and people don't know your background. You've got a great history in networking. You've been there, many ways of innovation. You've been part of directly a big companies that were now known big names are all there, but now we haven't had a Mobile World Congress 2019. Think about that, that's, you know, many months, 27 months gone by, since the world has changed in TelcoOR I got to ask you, what is the disruption happening? Because think about that since 2019, a lot's changed in TelcoOR cloud is scale has happened. You've got the edge developing. It's IT like now, what's your take Shailesh tell us? >> Yeah John, as you correctly pointed out, you know, last 18 months have been very difficult and you know, I'll acknowledge that right upfront for a number of people around the world. Empathize with that now in the TelcoOR and kind of the broader edge world. I would say that the last 18, 24 months have actually been transformative COVID it turns out was a very interesting sort of, driver of completely new ways of both living as well as working right, as we all have experienced. I don't think that I've had a chance to see you live in 24 months. So what we are seeing is the following, number one, number of TelcoORs carriers around the world have started the investment process for 5g right? And deployment process. And that actually changes the game as you know, due to latency, due to all of the capabilities around kind of incredible bandwidth, right? Much lower latency, as well as much higher kind of enterprise oriented capabilities, right? So network slicing as an example, quality of service, you know, by a traffic type and for a given enterprise. So that's number one. Number two, I would say that the cloud is becoming a lot more kind of mainstream in the world, broader world of telecom. What we are seeing is a incredible amount of partnerships between telecom carriers and cloud providers, right? So instead of thinking of those two as separate universes, those are starting to come together. So I believe that over a period of time, you will see the notion of kind of cloud native capability for both the IT side of the house, as well as the network side of the house is becoming, you know, kind of mainstream, right. And then the third thing is that increasingly it's, a lot more about enabling new markets, new applications in the enterprise world, right? So certainly it opens up a new kind of revenue stream for service providers and carriers around the world. But it also does something unique, which is brings together the cloud capabilities, right around elasticity, flexibility, intelligence, and so on with the enterprise customer base that most of the cloud providers already have. And with the combination of 5g brings it to the telecom world. And those, you know, I started to call it as a, kind of the triad, right? The triad of an enterprise, the telecom service provider and the cloud provider, all working together to solve real business problems. >> And it's totally a great call out there on the pandemic. I think the pandemic has shown us coming out of it now that cloud scale matters. And you look at all its successes between work play and how we've all kind of adjusted the cloud technologies. We're a big part of that, those solutions that, that got us through it. Now you've got the edge developing with 5g. And I got to ask this question because when we have CUBE interviews with all the leaders of engineering teams, whether it's in the industry or at customers in the enterprise, and even in the telcos, the modern application teams have end to end visibility into the workload. You start to see more and more of that. You starting to see more open source in everything, right? And so, okay. I buy that. You've got an SRE on the team. You've got some modern developers you're shifting left, you've got Develops, all good, all cloud. However, you're a networking guy. You know this, routing packets across multiple networks is difficult. So if you're going to have end to end visibility, you got to have an end to end intelligence on the networking. How is that being solved? Because this is a critical discussion at here at mobile world Congress. Okay, I buy cloud native, I buy observability, I buy open source, but I got to have end-to-end visibility for security and workload management and managing all the data. What's the answer on the network side? >> Yeah, so that's a great question. And the simple way to think about this is first and foremost you need kind of global infrastructure, right? So that's a given and of course, you know, Google with its kind of global infrastructure and some of the largest networks in the world, we have that presence, right. So that's important. Second is to be able to abstract away that underlying infrastructure and make it available to applications through an set of APIs, right? So I'll give an analogy here just as you know, say 10 years ago, around 10 years ago, Android came into the market from Google in the following way. What it did was that it abstracted away the underlying devices with a simple kind of layer on top of operating system, which exposed APIs not bound. So that application developers can write new applications. And that actually unleashed, you know, it ton of kind of creativity right around the world. And that's precisely what we believe is kind of the next step, as you said, on an end to end observability basis, right? What if you can do an abstraction away from all of the underlying kind of core infrastructure provide the right API the right kind of information around observability around telemetric instead of making, cloud and infrastructure, the black box, make it open, make it kind of visible to the applications, bring that to the applications and let the let a thousand flowers bloom, right? The creativity in each vertical area is so significant because there are independent software vendors. There are systems integrators, they're individual developers. So one of the things that we are doing right now is utilizing open source technologies, such as Kubernetes, right? Which is something that Google actually brought into the market. And it has become kind of the de facto standard for all of the container and modernization of applications. So by leveraging those open technologies, creating this common control plane, exposing APIs, right? For everything from application development to observability, you certainly have the ability to solve business problems through a large number of entities in the systems integrator and the ISV and the developer community. So that's the approach that we're taking John >> I love the Android analogy of this obstruction layer, because at that time the iPhone was closed. It still is. And they got their own little strategy there. Android went the other way. They went open when open abstraction now obstruction layers are good. And now I want to get your thoughts on this because anyone in operating systems knows abstractions are great for innovation. How does that apply to the real world on telco? Because I get how it could add some programmability in there. I get the control plane piece, putting it into the operator's hands. How do you guys see and how do you guys talk about the edge service offering? What does it mean for the telco? Because well, they get this, right. This is going to be in telco cloud developer play. It's going to be a cloud ecosystem play. It's an opportunity for a new kind of telco system. How do you see that rolling out in the real world? >> Great question, John. So the way I look at it, actually even we should take a step back, right? So the confluence of 5g, the kind of cloud capabilities and the edge is, you know, very clear to me that it's going to unleash and significant amount of innovation. We are in early stages. No question, but it's going to drive innovation. So one almost has to start by saying what exactly is edge, right? So the way I look at it is that the edge can be a continuum all the way from kind of an IOT device, an automobile, or an enterprise edge, like a factory location or a retail store, or kind of a bank branch to the telecom edge, which is where the service providers have. Not only their points of presence and central offices, but increasingly a very large amount of intelligent land sites as well, right? And then the kind of the public cloud edge, right? Where, for example, Google has, you know, twenty-five plus kind of regions around the world, 144, you know, pops, lots of CDN locations. We have, you know, a few thousand nodes deployed deep inside service provider networks for caching of content and so on. So if you think about these as different places in the network that you can deploy compute storage and intelligence act, right. And do that in a smart way, right? For example, if you were to run the learning algorithms in the cloud with its flexibility and elasticity and run the inferencing at the edge, very edge at the point of sort of a sale or a point a very consumer standing. Now you suddenly have the ability to create a variety of edge applications. So going back to the new question, what have we seen? So what we are seeing is depending on the vertical, there are different types of edge applications, okay. So let's take a few examples and I'll give you some, a favorite example of mine, which is in the sports arena. So in baseball, right, when you are in a stadium and soon there are people sort of starting to be in stadiums, right. And if pitcher is throwing the pitch, right, the trajectory of the ball, the speed of the pitch, where the batter is, you know, what the strike zone is and all of these things, if they can be in a stadium in real time, analyzed and presented to the consumer as additional intelligence and additional insight, suddenly it actually creates kind of a immersive experience even though you may be in the stadium, looking at the real thing, you are also seeing an immersive experience. And of course at home, you get a completely different experience, right? So the idea is that in sports, in media and entertainment, the power of edge compute and the power of AI ML, right, can be utilized to create completely new immersive experiences. Similarly, in a factory or an automotive environment, you have the ability to use AI ML and the power of the edge and 5g coming together to find where the defects are in a manufacturing environment, right? So every vertical, what we're finding is there are very specific applications, which you can call us kind of killer apps, right in the edge world, that over time will become prevalent and mainstream and they will drive the innovation. They will drive deployment, and they also will drive ultimately kind of the economics of all of this. >> You're laying out, essentially the role of the public cloud and the telco market. I'd love to get your thoughts because a lot of people are saying, "Oh, the cloud, it's all edge now it's still going back to a on premises." This is not the case. I mean, I've been really vocal on this. The public cloud and cloud operations is now the new normal. So developers are there. So I want you to explain real quick, the role of the public cloud in the telecom market and the telecom edge, because now they're working together, you got a distraction, you mentioned that Android leg environment coming, it's going to be an Android, like effect that eked abstraction, you got old ran out there creating these connection points for interoperability, for radio signals and the in transceivers or the edge of the radios. All of this is happening. How is Google powering this? What is the role of public cloud in this? >> Yeah, so let me first talk about generically, the role of public cloud. Then I'll talk about Google, okay. In this, in particular. So if at the end of the day, the goal here is to create applications in a very simple and efficient manner, right? So what do you like if you look put that as the goal, then the public cloud brings, you know, three fundamental things. Number one is what I would call as elasticity and flexibility, right? So why is this important? Because as we discussed earlier, edge is not one place. It's a variety of kind of different locations. If there is a mechanism to create this common control plane and have the ability to kind of have elastic compute, elastic networking, elastic storage, and have this deployed in a flexible manner. Literally if you think about it like an effortless edge is what we are starting to call it. You can move workload and capability and run it precisely where it makes sense, right? Like I said, earlier, training and learning algorithms in the deep cloud, inferencing at the very edge, right? So if you can make that decision, then it becomes very powerful. So that's the first point, elasticity and flexibility that the cloud can bring. Second is intelligence, the whole notion of leveraging the power of data and the power of AI and ML is extremely crucial for creation of new services. So that's something that the public cloud brings. And the third is this notion of right once deploy anywhere, right? This notion of kind of a full stack capability that open kind of developer ecosystem can be brought in. Like we talked about Kubernetes earlier. So if there's a way in which you can bring in those developer and ISV ecosystem, which is already present in the world of public cloud, that's something that is the third thing that public law brings. And Google strategy very simply is to play on all of these. Because Google has incredibly rich deployment experience around the world for some of the largest services on the planet, right? With some of the biggest infrastructure in the networking world. Second is we have a very open and flexible approach, right? So open, as you know, we not only leverage kind of the Kubernetes environment, but also there are many other areas, Guinea native, and so on where Google has brought a lot of open kind of capabilities to the broader market. And the third is the enablement of the ecosystem. So last year, we actually announced 200 applications, from 30 ISV in multiple verticals that we're now going to be deployed on Google cloud in order to solve specific business pain points, right. And building out that ecosystem, working with telecom service providers with systems integrators with equipment players is the way that we believe Google cloud can make a difference in this world of developing edge applications. We are seeing great traction, John, you know, whether it is in the carrier world, you know, carrier such as orange telecom Italia, telus SK Telekom, Vodafone. These have all publicly announced their work with Google cloud, leveraging the power of data analytics, AIML, and our very flexible infrastructure. And then a variety of kind of partners and OEM players in the industry, as an example, Nokia, right. Am docs and Net cracker and many others. So we are really excited in the traction that we are getting, and we believe that public cloud is going to be a key part of the evolution of the telecom industry. >> Shukla it's great to have you on Shailesh Shukla VP and GM of networking at Google cloud. And I would just add to that final point there that open and this Android like open environment is going to create a thousand flowers to bloom those, a new applications, new modern applications, new companies, a new ecosystem in the telco cloud. So, congratulations, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights on Google cloud, you guys are about the data and being open. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Great to talk to you, okay. >> It keeps coverage of mobile Congress, Google cloud featured interview here on theCUBE. Really a big part of the public cloud is going to be a big driver. Call it public cloud, hybrid cloud. Whatever you want to call it, it's the cloud cloud and edge with 5g making a big difference and changing the landscape in front of innovation for the telco space. I'm John Farrow, your CUBE host, thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe. Part of the CNCF and ongoing, could be in there from the beginning, love this community, theCUBE's proud to support and continue to cover it. We're virtual this year again because of the pandemic but it looks like we'll be right around the corner for a physical event, hopefully for the next one, fingers crossed. Got a great guest here from Red Hat. Siamak Sadeghianfar, a Senior Principal Product Manager. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, this topic's about GitOps, Pipelines, code. Obviously Infrastructure as Code has been the ethos since I can remember going back to 2008 and the original cloutaroti vision. And we were always talking about that. Now it's mainstream. Now it's DevSecOps. So, it's now, day two operations, shifting left with security. OpenShift is continuing to get, take ground. Congratulations on that. So my first question is you guys announced the general availability of OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps at KubeCon. What are, what's this about? And what's the benefits for the customer. Let's get into the news >> Thanks for, to begin with for the Congress and this, this is definitely a hot topic around the DevSecOps. And the different variations of that year about some versions that during in, in FinTech and other verticals as well. The idea is here really is that CI/CD has been around for a long time, continuous integration and continuous delivery, as one of the core practices of the DevOps movement. DevOps movement is quite widespread, now. You, you see reports of above 90% of organizations are in the process of adoption in their journey. And this is one of the main practices but something that has become quite apparent is that many of these organizations that are investing more and more in Cloud Native apps and adopting Cloud Native ways of building applications the tooling and technology that they use for CI/CD since CI/CD is nothing new is from 10 years old, five years old pre Kubernetes era which is not quite Cloud Native. So there is always a clash of how do I build Cloud Natives application using these technologies that are not really built for Cloud Native space and an OpenShift Pipelines OpenShift GitOps is really an opening in this direction and bring more Cloud Native ways of continuous integration and continuous delivery to customers on OpenShift. >> Got it, so I got to ask you, so a couple of questions on this topic, I really want to dig into. Can you describe the Cloud Native CI/CD process versus traditional CI/CD? >> Sure, so traditional when we think about CI/CD there is usually this monolithic solutions that are running on a virtual machine on a type of infrastructure that they use to deploy applications as well. 'Cause you, you need reliability and you have to be making an assumption about an infrastructure that you're running on. And when you come to Cloud Native infrastructure you have a much more dynamic infrastructure. We have a lot less assumptions. You might be running on a public cloud or on premise infrastructure or different types of public cloud. So these environments are often also containerized. So there are, there's a high chance you're running on a container platform, regardless if it's a public or on premises. And with the whole containers, you, you have different types of disciplines and principals to think in, about your infrastructure. So in the Cloud Native ways of CI/CD, you're running most likely in a container platform. You don't have dedicated infrastructure. You are running mostly on demand. You scale when there is a demand for running CI/CD, for example, rather than dedicated infrastructure to it. And also from the mode of operation from organization perspective, they are more adapted to this decentralized ways of ownership. As a part of the DevOps culture, this comes really with that movement, that more and more development teams are getting ownership of some portion of the delivery of their applications. And it's cognitive CS/CD solutions, they focus on supporting these models that you go away from that central model of control to decentralize and have more ownership, more capabilities within the development teams for delivering application. >> Okay, so I then have to ask you the next question. It's like you, like a resource, you'd say: Hey Siri, what is, what is GitOps? What is GitOps? 'Cause that's the topic that's been getting a lot of traction, everyone's talking about it. I mean we know DevOps. So what is the GitOps model? Can you define that? And is that what a, it that what comes after DevOps? Is it DevOps 2.0, what is the GitOps model? >> That's a very good question. GitOps is nothing really new. It's rather a more descriptive way of DevOps principles. DevOps talks about the cultural changes and mindset and ways of working. And when it comes to the, to the concrete work flow it is quite open for interpretation. So GitOps is one, a specific interpretation of how you, you do continuous integration and continuous delivery, how we implement DevOps. And the concept have been around for a couple of years. But just recently, it's got a lot of traction within the Cloud Native space. >> So how does GitOps fit into Kubernetes then? 'Cause that's going to be the next dot that we want to connect. What is that, what is, how, how. How does GitOps fit into Kubernetes? >> So GitOps is really the, the core principle of GitOps is that you, you, you think about everything in your infrastructure and application in a declarative manner. So everything needs to be declared in, in, in a number of gate repositories and you drive your operations through Git Workflows. Which if you think about it is quite similar to how Kubernetes operates. The, the reason Kubernetes became so popular is because of this declarative way of thinking about your infrastructure. You declare what you expect and Kubernetes actualizes that on, on some sort of infrastructure. So GitOps is, is, is exact same concept, but the, but applied not to the infrastructure itself, but to the operations of that infrastructure, operations of those applications. It becomes a really nice fit together. It's the same mindset really applied in different place. >> It's like Kubernetes is like the linchpin or the enabler for GitOps. Just a whole nother level of, I mean, I think GitOps essentially DevOps 2.0 in my opinion because it takes this whole nother level above that for the developer modern developer because it allows them to do more. So it's been around for a while. We've been talking about this, it's got a new name but GitOps is kind of concept has been around. Why is the increase adoption happening now in your opinion or do you have any data on or any facts or opinion on why it's such an increase in, in conversation and adoption? >> You had the, you had like very accurate point there that Kubernetes has been a great enabler for, for DevOps and later the same applies to GitOps as well because of that, that great fit. It has been, GitOps the concept has been there but implementation of that has been quite difficult before Kubernetes and also for non-containerized environments. Kubernetes is, is a very potent platform for this kind of operation because the the mindset and the ways of working is really native to how Kubernetes thinks. But there is also another driver that has been influential in, in the rise of GitOps in the last year or two. And this is an observation we see at a lot of our customers, that the number of clusters that organizations are deploying, Kubernetes clusters increasing. As their maturity increases they get more comfortable with Cloud Native way of working and transfer the workflows to become Cloud Native, they are, they are having, they move more and more of their infrastructure to Kubernetes clusters. So a new challenge rises with this. And now that I have a larger number of clusters how do I ensure consistency across all these, all these clusters? So before I had to deploy an application to production environment, perhaps, which meant two clusters across two geographical zones. Now I have to deploy to 20 clusters. And these 20 clusters also change over time. So this week is a different 20 clusters then three weeks from now. So this, this dynamic ways of working and the customers maturing in, in dealing with Kubernetes operating communities has increased really the pace of adoption of GitOps because it addresses a lot of those challenges that customers are dealing with in this space. >> Yeah, you bring up a really good challenge there. And I think that's worth calling out, this idea of expansion. And I won't say sprawl because it's not a sprawl of cluster. It's more a state provisioning and standing up clusters. And you said they they're changing because the environment has needs and the workloads might have requirements. This makes total sense in a DevOps kind of GitOps way. So I get that and I see that definitely happening. So this brings up the question, if I'm a customer, what I'm worried about is I don't want to have that Hadoop factor where I build a cluster and it takes too long to manage it, or I can't measure it, or understand the data, or have any observability. So I want to have an ease of provisioning and standing up and I want to have consistency that my apps who are using it, don't have to be, you know mangled with or coded with. So, you know, this combination of ease of deploying, ease of integrating, ease of consuming the clusters becomes a service model. Can you share your thoughts on how that gets solved? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that, that's a great point because as, as this is happening, there is also heterogenesis in this, this type of Kubernetes infrastructure window. Like, they're all Kubernetes but this problem also has multiple facets as customers running on multiple public clouds and, and combination of that with their on-premise Kubernetes clusters. And that is, they may as well be OpenShift across all this, all this infrastructure. But the, the problem that GitOps helps its customers advise that they can have the exact same operational model across all these apps and infrastructure, regardless of what kind of application it is. And regardless of where OpenShift is installed or if you're using that combined with a public cloud managed a Kubernetes stats, is the exact same process because you're relying on, on the Gits Workflows, right? And even beyond that, this standard workflow has the benefit of something that many organizations are already familiar with. So if you think about what GitOps operations mean it is essentially what developers have been always using for developing applications. So this standardizes the operations of both application and infrastructure as solvers. >> Listen to me, I got to ask you as the product manager on the whole pipelining in Kubernetes deployments. In your opinion, share your perspective on, real quick, on Kubernetes, where we're at? Because just the accelerated adoption has been phenomenal. We've seen it mature this year at KubeCon. And certainly when KubeCon North America happens, you're going to see more and more end user participation. You're going to see much more end-user use cases. You mentioned clusters are growing. What's the state of Kubernetes from your perspective, from a developer mindset? >> So Kubernetes, I think it has moved from a place that it was seen as only a, a type of infrastructure for Cloud Native applications because of the capability that it provides to a type of infrastructure for any type of application, any type of workload. I think what we have seen over the last two years is, is a shift to expansion of the use cases. And if, if you are, you talked about head open if you are a data scientist, or if you are an AIML type of developer or any type of workload really, see use cases that are coming to the Kubernetes platform as the targets type of infrastructure. So that's really where we see Kubernetes at right now is the really, the preferred infrastructure for any type of workload. And I believe this trend going to to keep continuing to address any of the challenge that exists that prevents maybe part of the, a particular type of workload to address that within the platform and opens that to add to, to developers. Which means for the developers now, once you learn the platform you are really proficient in a, you have this skills for any type of application or any type of infrastructure because they're all standardized, regardless of what type of application or workloads or technology you're specialized in. They're all going to the exact same platform. So it's very standardized type of skills across organizations, different type of teams that they have. >> Awesome, great, thanks for sharing that insight and definition. You're like a walking dictionary today for our CUBE audience. Thank you for all this good stuff. Appreciate it. Final question for you is, what does it mean for developers that are using Jenkins or other cloud-based CI solutions like GitHub Actions? What, what's the impact to them with all this from a working standpoint? 'Cause obviously you've got to make it workable. >> Right, so it's CI/CD also like it's, it's it's great to see like with DevOps adoption, there are many organizations that already have processes in place. They have, they're already using a CI tool or a CD tool. They might be using Jenkins. A lot of organizations really use, use Jenkins even though it comes with challenges and you might be using public cloud services or cloud-based CI tools, like you have Actions, you have pipelines and so on. So we are very well aware of the existing investment that many organizational teams have made. And we make sure that OpenShift as a platform works really well alongside all these different types of CI and CD technology that exists. We want to make sure that for developers starting on OpenShift, they, they have a really solid Cloud Native foundation for CI/CD. They have of strategies included but replaceable type of strategies. So they, they have a supportive platform that is Cloud Native, that gives them capability that matches the type of Cloud Native workloads that they have on the platform but also integrate well with existing tooling that exists around CI/CD. So that they can match and choose if they want to replace a piece of that with an existing investment that they have done, integrated with the rest of the platform. >> Awesome, well, great to have you on. Having the principal product manager is awesome, to talk about the two new announcements here. OpenShift pipe, Pipelines, and OpenShift GitOps. Final, final question, bumper sticker this for the audience. What's the bottom line with OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps? What's the, what's the bottom line benefit for customers? >> It's a, so OpenShift Pipeline and OpenShift GitOps makes it really simple for customers to create Cloud Native Pipelines and GitOps model for delivering application. And also making cluster changes across a large range of clusters that they have, make it really simple to grow from that point to many, many clusters and still manage the complexity of this complex infrastructure that it will be growing into. >> All right, Siamak Sadeghianfar, Senior Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. Here for the KubeCon + CloudNativeCon, Europe. CUBE conversation, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks John, thanks for having me. Okay, CUBE coverage continues. I'm John Farrow with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit '21 virtual conference. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are here with Kevin Martelli, Principal Software Engineer at KPMG, joining the conversation. Kevin, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thanks a lot for having me. >> So obviously Red Hat, a lot of action, cloud native, part of IBM now. A lot of talk going on around this growth around cloud. Massive new opportunities, new modern applications being shaped in, super exciting opportunities. So first, before we get into all that, tell us about your role at KPMG. >> Sure John, thanks. So my role at KPMG, I'm one of our cloud leaders at KPMG where I really help both from an internal perspective, so helping our internal enablement and digitalization, as well as, more importantly, helping to deliver solutions and applications to our clients as they go through these digital journeys. And really focusing on containerization and enabling it through the cloud. >> John: You guys have done a lot of AI work, I know which is cutting edge, it's pretty much data-driven. I mean, AI is, what everyone talks about, but underlying AI is automation, data, machine learning, really dealing with kind of new types of datasets, not just dealing with existing structures. You have a new platform called Ignite. Tell us what that is. What do you guys solve? What was the problem statement? And what's going on with it? >> Yeah, John, thanks a lot for asking. So Ignite, it's something that we developed internally initially, and it really helped to solve our AI initiatives. We called it our AI platform, but it's moreso an ecosystem. And it solves not only our own internal needs and internal use cases, but also choose to help support and deliver these solutions to the clients. One of the foundational principles of our platform is it's built on top of containerization, which we know is a hot area now, today in the marketplace really gives you the ability for scalability, flexibility, security, et cetera, but more important, what we're seeing large scale of adoptions in our clients, is using this platform to really get value out of both unstructured and structured data in a way that they're able to do this in a secured fashion and then easily get it deployed. It's a pretty scalable platform, and something that we've just recently received the patent for it. >> So what was the internal conversation to put this together? Was it the fact that there was business needs? Cloud native gave you that scale advantage? What was some of the drivers behind Ignite? 'Cause this is like, was it IoT? Was it, take us through the mindset. What were some of the first principles around building this? >> Hey John nice, it's a good question. And actually to be fair, this was probably a little bit before the time of IoT and some of these newer technologies were coming up. At this time, we were really kind of scratching on the surface of data science and advanced analytics. And what really generated the need for this is as you could imagine, working in a consultancy firm and many of our clients deal with tons of contracts and the lightboard documents for financial services, there was much rich information, these unstructured data documents and we had no way to get this information out. So really it was generated out of the need to get information out of a lot of these contractual documents that we had and pinpoint specific information. So really taking it holistically on ingestion on transformations, running NLP, algorithms, it really evolved into a whole end to end complete platform, running on top of a containerized ecosystem, such as OpenShift. >> John: Yeah, I think just not to go on a tangent here but I think one of the conversations we've been having on all these events and certainly with COVID was the highlight of all these silos. And you know the old days was about break down the silos. But now with containers and cloud scale, you can extract out data, kind of create that horizontal data plane if you will, or view observation space, some call it. This just seems to be a huge trend you guys were on it early. How has that, what's your take on that? The silos used to be kind of like an advantage if you had a monolithic application but now you have a lot of diverse distributed databases. What's your take? >> Kevin: Yeah, it's, it's good. And how we are kind of coining. It is really through the power of, some of the toying in OpenShift that really gives organizations the ability to defer risk. In the sense that allows you to run certain types of workloads on-prem in a private cloud containerized way. It allows you to burst certain other types of workloads into the different CSP provider. So you can get advantage of their scale, their capacity without maybe moving some sensitive data and then another benefit is with some of that vendor lock-in it sometimes clients are concerned about is being able to kind of easily deploy your workloads and applications from one cloud provider to another. And I think as we look at this distributed processing no one client will totally be in one cloud provider. So having the ability to move workloads quickly and fastly where they make sense, where the security and risk is aligned is something that would what makes a successful use cases deployments. >> John: Just let me ask you another question. You guys, KPMG obviously have your own big data effort going on with analytics. You've got clients that you serve and ultimately they have customers as well. So you have that Red Hat equation. What are some of the advantages that you guys see as your firm and your clients with Red Hat analytics, 'cause this becomes ultimately the number one conversation. Like, okay, what's in it for me? >> Yeah. That's a good point. I would say we're seeing a few things. Some of them are highlighted. One is, as you're well aware, we chose Red Hat's OpenShift as one of our strategic options to deploy our platform. And whenever you're deploying these platforms it's very important that you have the flexibility the agility, and the ability to scale and Red Hat underneath the hood really helps take care of a lot of that, for you in a way that not only can you do it on your own as mentioned earlier, your private cloud but also onto the public CSPs and multiple CSPs. In addition, some of the other things I think that we saw that were very beneficial, a lot of times as an application user. So application users of ignite, the developers, the data scientists, the business users, the analysts, they all need to interact with the platform. They want to worry about getting the insights about getting the efficiencies in the platform. They don't want to worry about how the infrastructure's being put together, how the workloads are being moved how the scalability is occurring, et cetera and Red Hat really takes a lot of that away from you having to worry about it. And one of the other things that's also important is, is we have a strategic relationship with Red Hat. And as we look to help to enhance and develop these capabilities and experiences as our clients are doing private cloud, hybrid cloud and multi-cloud, we're really going to be able to let them take the power of open source, into their own control and how they want to deploy it in themselves. >> Well, got you on the topic there. I got to ask you the question. What would you say to the people out there that haven't really kicked the tires on Red Hat in a while? What's the modern update? How would you describe the current situation at Red Hat for people who are going to re-look and or bring the Red Hat conversation up a notch? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I think we see this in any type of software in the industry today. There's so many choices and there's so many options out there. And how do you choose the right source for the right use case? For the right client, for the right company? And how we always like to talk with clients is that yes, there are a lot of choices in there and the orchestration for the standardization but when you're looking for something that's celebrated in the market that has the security built into it that many organizations are looking for that gives you the flexibility without having to do a lot of additional operational overhead of moving from on-prem into the cloud and the way that it can scale and kind of make the overall ecosystem operations and deployments easier, it's one of the benefits that we see have gone with a tool like Red Hat OpenShift. >> Well, Kevin, I really appreciate the comments there and on Red Hat, that's awesome. Red Hat Summit, honestly, a big event around Red Hat and future cloud and modern applications. So I got to ask you as a software engineering leader in the industry, you got to be pretty excited about artificial intelligence and machine learning as it relates to, what it can be doing for changing the software development paradigm. Obviously there's also the no code, low code, serverless. You've got cloud native, you've got containers you got all this new capability. So how does, how do you see those trends? What are the big trends around machine learning and AI as it relates to someone who's going to be building modern applications in the cloud. Because certainly there's a huge ups upside there. Some are saying that if you don't have AI that's going to be a table stakes and we'll lower the valuation of the software or the application. What's your take on all these big trends around AI? >> Yeah, I agree with that. We've actually done several studies. And what we're hearing industry leaders saying is it was quite a few things. One is, we at KPMG, COVID-19 whiplash. And really what that means is that the pace and acceleration of adoption in AI has been tremendous over the COVID 19 period of our pandemic period. And so much so that industry leaders are a little bit concerned about how fast this adoption is going. And is it going too fast? In addition, we recently published a study called Thriving In An AI world where we were able to identify that business leaders and insiders are really bullish on to your point of using AI and ML to make some poor, critical decisions. How can we make vaccines? What's the distribution process? Fraudulent analytics where financial services. However, what I will say is we're still seeing a lot, a lot of questions and challenges around AI. Its security, its ethics associated to it. How you keep managing governing your process then privacy associated to it. So there's a lot of points around those areas. I think that industries are still trying to struggle and figure out how to solve for. And one of the things that we are hearing is that what the new administration there's different think tanks and industry leaders that are feeling that the new administration, while open to a lot of these advanced techniques and technologies are going to put a little bit more rigor around and regulations around how AI can be used in the marketplace. So hopefully that would give some companies guidance around these security and privacy and ethics concerns. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to a friend the other day who's a leader at a big company that's a customer of Red Hat and a lot of other clouds as well. And we were joking about the agility speed, oh, agility and speed. Of course, yeah, you get that with here but you got a lot of fast and loose situations going here. You got to know when to put the pedal to the metal. When there's a straight narrow, we can really kind of gas it with AI and machine learning and then know where the potential curves are. See, will use that metaphor because you can go fast but with speed comes dangerous new things for breakage. Is always, and you're seeing that all the time. You're seeing that, with software because you can push new update, but still, when you talk about operational integrity and security fast and loose, isn't always the best way to go. But if you know there's a straight and narrow, you can really push it. This was what we were saying, he's like, "Hey, we know when to go straight and narrow and go fast. And then when to slow it down, pull it back." What's your take on that? What's your assessment? >> No, I agree. I think you hit some valid points there. And sometimes what we do is we take some antiquated processes and we overlay them into these newer technologies and we try to think them as being the same way and they may not always hold true. But it's not only kind of the fast and narrow and then putting things in that maybe a little bit more simplistic, but it's also there's a whole change around how you productionalized. How do you get these things into deployment? How do you monitor these over time? So some of those biases or some of those privacy concerns don't end up creeping up into the algorithm over time. I still think that will work here and from industries. There are still struggles around that. There's still struggles around. There's a lot of technologies that can do a lot of these same things. Our business processes don't always align. And then how do we really take something from an innovation from a POC into production? Is there a fast track for something that is straightened narrow and something that has a little bit more complexity? But what we're seeing today, there's a lot sort of spout at the same road, which makes bringing more complex AI algorithms into production. Challenging. >> Yeah. And there's always that big trend of day two operations. Which is, hey, you deploy it's great. And then, okay, wait a minute stop, set in a break. We need better monitoring. We need better data analytics. What's instrumented. What's not. What services are being generated and terminated. These are all big cloud native kind of themes. With that, I got to ask you from a customer standpoint, these are new first-generation problems at scale that with this new cloud native environment, the pros and cons. How do you guys talk to customers? What are some of the things you're seeing around the challenges that they face with analytics? All these analytic activity? >> Kevin: Yeah. So I think one of the challenges and we've probably heard this year in year out is around data literacy. Like really having our folks understand the data and empowering them to be successful in the organization. And to be fair I would say data literacy was a little bit more narrowly focused in an organizations who needed it. I need some analysts to use it. I needed some data scientists and engineers, but what we're starting to see now is there's larger programs across the board where it's more holistic at an organizational level. Everyone should be involved in data. Everyone should be able to do their own reporting. So really data literacy and getting data kind of into the arms of the folks is important. Some of the other ones that we've also kind of talked to about it, and they kind of go hand in hand and maybe a little bit on our prior conversation was the technologies. Technology especially in open source is exploding. And as well as commercial. So how do you choose the right technologies the right tools? You don't have too many tools in your toolbox per se but use the ones that are really differentiating and try to standardize on the ones that are more standard. Finally it's bringing those processes and that wrapping them back into the technologies. Again, a little point we hit on earlier but what we're finding is as technology is rapidly increasing, you're able to use it for your analytics. Your processes are still antiquated and legacy processes which makes it a little bit harder for you to really take advantage of what you're trying to achieve in your organization from a digital transformation. And then one final one I would add in there is around the risk that organizations have. So there's a lot of concern about reputational risk. If they're doing these types of activities that people don't understand, the data they don't understand the algorithms. Are there some impacts that can be heard? And they're figuring out how to control that and then how not to. And then I think finally the workforce is, as we know, it's getting the workforce up to speed, retooling where need be and putting their people in the right place to be successful. >> Kevin that's great insight. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. I got to ask you one final question. >> Go ahead. One more thing, you mentioned COVID whiplash means a lot of post COVID activity discussions going on. If you look at what's happened with COVID there's been an exposure of all the projects that need to be doubled down on, ones that may not be continuing. People working at home. Honestly, a change of the environment, you mentioned workforce is among others. What do you think the biggest conversation around your customer base or within KPMG right now around some of these growth strategies around post COVID? What are companies thinking around how to deploy the people, process and technology is a big part of this conversation. What is the post COVID general theme that you're seeing among large enterprises and businesses in general? >> I mean, that's a good question. So I think in general, we're seeing the acceleration of digital agendas that may have been pushed out for five years school moving closer. But one of the most interesting things I think that I've gathered out of working with the clients that we're working with is that before to get stuff into production, AI solutions even in any type of smaller production system that was taking months months, several months to get something in production. And it seemed to be once the COVID pandemic hit, organizations can accelerate that journey of the deployment of applications into production in very, very quick timeframes without hindering or impacting any types of control frameworks they have in place, but just working quicker. So I think some of the things I see as we move forward is that these digital channels are going to be push forward more quicker. The data list on POC is good our pilot's good, is long past. It's now they want to see the results in the outputs in the enterprise, in production. And I think they realize that they have the tools to do this in a period of time that is weeks versus months, and in some cases, years. >> So, would you agree then, just as a quick followup to that that obviously when we get back to real life, post COVID that the visibility and the economics and the productivity gains from this new environment is going to stay around longer and probably be permanent. What's your, do you agree with that statement? >> I hope it is. but we are creatures of habit. And sometimes you go back to back to the way that we had done things, but I'm hopeful that they were able to see to be successful in these types of environments and make these types of decisions that those processes that are evolving to take into consideration what we learned. One is terrible pandemic, and be able to apply that to the post pandemic. >> Yeah. Who would have known the word hybrid cloud actually means something more than just cloud technologies? Hybrid events, hybrid workforces, the word hybrid has been kicked around. Kevin, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE for Red Hat Summit coverage. Thanks for coming on. Great insight. >> Thank you, have a great day. >> Thanks. I'm John Farrow with theCUBE here for Red Hat Summit coverage, 2021 virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm John Farrow, your hosts. We've got the cube virtual. We're not there in person with remote this year, and we're excited to cover three weeks of wall-to-wall coverage. It's virtual events, so they don't over three weeks. We're in week three, day two. Um, and if you're watching this live on the platform tomorrow, Thursday at two o'clock Andy Jassy, we'll be live here on the cube with one-on-one with me to address all the hard questions, but here we're doing a day two of week three analysis with Jeremy Burton industry legend entrepreneur. Now the CEO of observe Inc, um, formerly the CMO of Dell technologies before that EMC has done a variety of ventures, seeing many ways of innovation, friend of the cube. Jeremy, thank you for coming on. >>Yeah, my pleasure. Great. Always great to be on the cube. >>Uh, great to have you on in particularly because, um, yesterday Verner, Vogel's talked a lot about observability and I noticed you got your observed shirt on, uh, observe Inc is your company's name, which is one of the many, uh, hot startups around observability, where you're making a business out of basically what he talked about yesterday. Um, and today's keynote. You had the extended cloud, uh, edge applications. You had bill Vass who leads up both edge and quantum. And then you had Rudy Valdez who, who talked a lot about, uh, evolution of cloud architecture. And of course you finally had, um, David Richardson, who is the VP of serverless. So you got edge. Quantum serverless architecture speaks to the sea change, Jeremy, and you have a good read on these big waves. When you look at serverless and then quantum, you look at, uh, edge, which is data, and you look at, um, all this coming together and on their architecture, Verner's keynote yesterday kind of makes sense. It's a systems architecture and this new observability trend, isn't like a point product. It's a broader concepts. You have a complete rethinking of distributed computing in the cloud. This is kinda what this Amazon feels like. What's your, what's your take? >>Yeah, it's a, it's a good observation. You know, the, the, the, the sort of punchline is, is that people are building applications differently. Um, so the, the, the, the, the technologies that people are using to build apps are different, um, the way in which they build applications is different. Um, the way folks released codes into production is different, and it stands to reason. Therefore, you're going to need a different approach, uh, when you want to troubleshoot these applications. So, uh, when you find, uh, you know, w w what is show when you want to find out what issues customers are having? So what, what we fell a couple of three years ago when we started to observe was that, um, uh, a new approach was required, what you're going to need to monitor your application. And, you know, 2020 is not the same as what you needed in 2015 or 2010. >>And we felt very strongly that this new wave was, was going to be called observability. It, it brings a tear to my eye to hear a Verner, talk about it, because as much as we observe, you know, believe that we can do big things in future. It's the big vendors today that can move markets. And so the Amazon and vulnerable particular talk about observability, I think it lends more credence to the topic. Um, we think that organizations should have observability teams. We think there should be a head of observability. And again, you know, Amazon and Dawson this, uh, I think means that there's a much stronger chance that that's going to happen. And they're going to start, start to shine a light on, I think, a topic that almost everybody needs to pay attention to as they build their next generation of applications. >>When you guys, I know you guys are launched and you have couple of campaign customers now and growing rapidly, um, well-funded, um, uh, get some great investors have found that the investors of snowflake also, um, invested in you guys. So they see this cloud trend LC snowflake when public, and I know you're on the board of snowflake as well. So, uh, you, you, you know, a little bit about what's going on with Amazon and the opportunity when you look at observability, okay, you're building a business around it. And again, you think about head of observability. That's not like a small thing when you make, put someone in charge of something. So why do you say that? I mean, what, I mean, you know, some would say, you know, Hey, it's a feature, not a company. I mean, this is two mindsets that are different. How do you address that? >>Yeah, the, the, the, the thing I'd say is, look, the number one job in America is, um, is a software engineer is writing code. The number two job is fixing it. And so, you know, th th the job think about that for a second. The job of fixing our applications is almost as big as the job of creating our applications. Uh, something has to change, right? I know the job of fixing cars is not as big as the auto industry. Why, because over time that industry has matured and there are better tools to diagnose cars. Uh, and so they're, they, they become easy to fix over time. We've, we've not made that leap with our applications. Um, the tools that the engineering team use to debug and troubleshoot their application are often still very different to what the dev ops team is using, um, which is very different to what maybe the SRE team is using. >>And so it's a huge problem in our industry. Um, really not being able to diagnose troubleshoot issues when they arise. It, it costs the industry, a fortune, it costs, you know, sort of in indirect wasted productivity of development teams, but it also costs in terms of customer experience. Um, I mean, you know, you and I both know is, look, if we're, if we're having a bad experience with maybe a new service that we're trying out online, w w we're probably going to go somewhere else. And so the there's never been like a more important time for people to invest in observing the entire environment, the entire customer experience, not only will you have happier customers, you might actually reduce the costs and improve the productivity in your engineering team as well. So I feel like the opportunity there is, is, is, is, is vast. Um, I also think longer term, um, it doesn't just apply to troubleshooting distributed applications. >>Um, I think the security systems are very related to the way we build software. Um, I mean, I think in, in, in the news in recent days, we've, we've come attuned, uh, uh, to, to software defects, um, or malware in software causing breaches and government agencies. Um, Hey, that, that could be anybody's software right there. Yeah. And so security has got a role to play in observability and the customer experience. It doesn't stop when they have a bad experience on the website. What if they complain? You know, what if a help desk ticket get, how do you track that? >>Yeah, I'm going to, I have a lot of questions for chassis tomorrow. One of them I'm going to ask him, and I want to get your thoughts on it. Cause you brought that up. And I think it's a key point, you know, building applications and supporting them and fixing them. It kind of reminds me of the old adage of, um, you know, you know, you gotta run it running the operation, 70% of the budget using to running it. If you look at what's happening and if you talk to customers and this is what I'm going to ask chassis tomorrow, Verner actually talked about, I on day two operations in his keynote. Yeah. I mean, this is Amazon they're, they're targeting builders. And so I talked to, um, a few other entrepreneurs, um, who were growing companies and some CIA CIOs and CEOs and the basic enterprises. >>They don't want to be building things like they, that's not their DNA. They don't build things like, that's not what they do. I mean, first of all, I love the builder mentality and with Amazon. Um, but they might be at a time where there might not be enough builders, Jeremy right out there. So you've got skill shortages and then ultimately are enterprises really builders. Yeah. They'll build something, but then they just run it it's. So, so at what point do they stop building or they build their own thing in the cloud and then they got to run it. So I think Amazon is going to shift quickly to day two operations, get bill, bill, bill run, run, run. >>Yeah. That's a great topic of conversation. I think what you sort of poking out is, is sort of the maturation of this digital age in the state that we're at. Um, I mean, if you, if you go back, you, you know, to, you know, 10, 10, 20 years, um, I mean, look at the mid nineties, um, there were a lot of people building custom applications, right? I mean, you know, it was innovation, it was all about building custom apps. And I think that golden era of application development whack that now, um, and, and customers in order to get competitive advantage, they are building their own applications. When you talk about digital transformation, what does that mean? Well, it means, you know, often a traditional company building a new digital experience for services that they've potentially offered in a physical way, uh, in the past. So make no mistake, P people are builders or they are writing code, they are becoming digital. >>I think what you'll find at some point as the industry's mature, some of these digital experience is become packaged. And so you can buy those off the shelf. And so there's less building required. But I think as we sit today, um, that there's probably more code been written in anger by more organizations that at any point in the last 30 years. And, and I think this is another reason why observability is so important, um, as you're building that code and as you're developing that customer experience, you want to be able to understand, um, where the issues are and, and, um, uh, like along the way, you don't want to wait until there's a, a big customer disaster on the day of you roll that, something to production before you start investigate. And you want to do that as you go. >>Yeah. And I think that's a kill. I do agree with you, by the way. I think the, there is a builder mentality, but it's probably right. But remember those days back in it, if you want to put our, our time machine hat on and go through the time machine is, you know, that was during the mainframe client server transition. And it was called spaghetti code. You know, it's like the monoliths were built and then it had to be supported and that became legacy. So I kind of see that happening today, where, um, people are moving to the cloud, they are building, but at some point you got to build your thing in the cloud. If I'm a company. And again, this isn't some dots trying to connect in real time. I got serverless, which is totally cool. I'm gonna have quantum has headroom for compute. >>I'm going to have, um, kind of a S a SOA service oriented architecture with web services, with observability. I'm gonna have all these modern apps great that, or run them. And I'm now I'm gonna shift them. Multiple clouds is so, you know, maybe the private cloud waves coming back, you're seeing telco clouds. You start to see these new tier. I won't say tier two clouds, but I mean, people will build their own cloud environment. There's no doubt as going to the cloud. And Steve Malania, Aviatrix kind of made this point yesterday in his analysis where he's like, he thinks private cloud will be back. I was just, it'll just be public cloud. People will build their own clouds and run them. >>Yeah. I feel well, what happens over time is, is the, the sort of line above which you would add value rises. So I kind of feel like, look, cloud is just going to the infrastructure. We can debate, you know, private cloud, public cloud. Is it a public cloud, or is it a private cloud served up by a public cloud provider? My view is, is look, all of that is, is, um, just going to be commodity, right? Um, it's going to be served up for an ever decreasing cost. And so then it's incumbent on organizations to innovate above that line. And, you know, 20 years ago, you know, we, we built our own data centers. Um, and now increasingly that, that seeming like a crazy idea. Um, and you know, now you can get almost all of your infrastructure from the cloud. The great thing is, I mean, look at observe. >>We have no people running data center operations, none, right? We have no people building a database, non, you know, we use snowflake in the cloud. It runs on AWS. We have, we have one dev ops, uh, engineer. And so all the people in the company right now, we're focused on adding value, helping people understand and analyze data, uh, above that line. And we just pay for a service level and, and look, uh, as time goes by, there's going to be more and more services and that line's going to rise. And so, you know, what, what I care about and what I think a lot of CEOs care about is are most of my resources innovating above that sort of value creation line, um, because that's what people are going to pay for in our business. And I think that's, what's going to represent you, you know, sort of value add for you, you know, organizations big and small. >>Yeah. That's a good point. I want to shift to the next topic and then we'll get into some observability questions I have for you and update on your company. Um, complexity has been a big theme. That's come out of all the conversations with analysts that have come on the cube, as you hear it with Amazon, a lot of undifferentiated, heavy lifting, being extracted away to your point about value layers and competing on value. Amazon continues to do that all great stuff, but some are saying, and we had said on the cube, yes, two days ago you put them complexity behind the curtain. It's still complexity, right? So, so complexity with the edge is highlighted. Uh, even though they got green, uh, I, um, edge core Greengrass, which has core thing, IOT core, a lot of cool things happening, but it's still not yet super easy. So complexity tends to slow things down became striction, what's your view on this? Because taming, the complexity seems to be a post COVID pandemic mandate for cloud journeys. What's your thing. >>Yeah, I totally agree. I think, I think in certainly you look organizations that have been in existence, but you know, 30, 40 years, or maybe even 10 years look at there's an amount of technical debt and complexity that you build up over time. Um, but even newer companies, um, the way that people are building modern distributed applications and in some respects is, is more complex than in days gone by, you know, microservices. Um, some of which maybe you own some of which maybe you don't, and what you've gotta be able to do is, is see the big picture, you know, w w when, when there's something in my code, but then when am I making a call out to maybe a third party microservice and, and that microservices bailing out on me, like people have got to see the big picture. And I think what hasn't been available as people have changed the architecture and their applications, there hasn't been an equivalent set of innovation or evolution in the tools that they use to manage that environment. And so you, you, you, you've got this sort of dichotomy of, uh, a better way for software developers to write code and deploy it into production microservices. But at the same time, you don't have good information and good tools to make sense of that complexity. >>That's great stuff. Jeremy Burton is here. He's the CEO of observe Inc cube, alumni, VIP cube alumni, by the way, has been on the cube every year, since the Q has been around 2010, when he took the new job as the CMO of EMC prior to being bought by Dell, Jeremy, you're a legend in the industry, certainly on as an executive and a marketer. And as an entrepreneur, um, I gotta ask you observe Inc, your company now, um, you're right in the middle of all this, you, you got a big bet going on. Could you share, in your opinion, your words, what is the big bet that you're making with observing? Uh, what are you betting on? How do you see the preferred future unfolding and where are you guys going to capture that value? >>Yes, I I'll big bat. Hey, uh, really is to take a new approach, um, in, in, in, in terms of enabling people to observe their systems, that the term observability actually goes back, uh, to a guy in control systems theory in the sixties. And then it's got quite a simple definition, which is, you know, being able to determine the, uh, I've been able to diagnose a system by the telemetry data that it emits. So let's look at the external outputs. And then based on that, can I determine the internal state of the application? And so from the get-go, we felt like observability was not about building another tool, right? We're not, you know, it's not about building another monitoring tool, a logging tool. Um, it's about analyzing data. And I, I was struck many years ago. Uh, I spent a bit of time with, with Andy McAfee, uh, from the sea sail lab at MIT. >>And he made a statement that I thought at the time was quite profound, which he said, look, everything's a matter of data. If you have enough data, you can solve any problem. And that stuck with me for a long time. And, um, you know, observe really what we do is we ingest vast quantities of telemetry data. We treat everything as events and we try and make sense of it. And the economics of the infrastructure now is such, that is you truly can ingest all the Alltel telemetry data and it's affordable, right? I mean, one of the wonderful things that Amazon has done is they've brought you, you know, very cheap, affordable storage. You can ingest all your data and keep it forever. Um, but, but now can you make sense of it? Well, you know, compute is pretty cheap these days and you've got amazing processing engines like snowflake. >>And so I was sense was that if we could allow folks to ingest all of this telemetry data process, that data and help people easily analyze that data, then they could find almost any problem that existed, uh, in their applications or in their infrastructure. So we really set out to create a data company, which I think is fundamentally different to, to really what everybody else is doing. And today we're troubleshooting distributed applications, but I think in future, we, my hope is that we can, we can help people analyze almost anything around their applications or infrastructure. >>And what's the use case problem statement that you're entering the market on? Is it just making sure microservices can be deployed as a Kubernetes? Is it managing containers? Is there a specific, um, customer adoption use case that you're focused on right now? >>Yeah, we've tried to target our ideal customer if you like has been the three or 4,000, uh, uh, SAS companies. Uh, we're, we're really focused on the U S right now, but three to 5,000 SAS companies, um, predominantly, uh, obviously running on AWS often, uh, Kubernetes infrastructure, but, you know, people who, uh, having a hard time, uh, understanding the complexity of the application that they've created, and they're having a hard time understanding, uh, the experience that their customers are having and tracking that back to root cause. So, you know, really helping those SAS companies troubleshoot their applications and having a better customer experience that's where the early customers are. And if we can do a good job in that area, I think we can, you know, over time, you know, start to take on some of the bigger companies and maybe some of the more established companies that are moving in this, this digital direction. >>Jeremy, thanks for sharing that. And I got one last set of questions for you around the industry, but before I get there, give a quick plug for observe. What are you guys looking to do hire, I mean, give a quick, uh, a PSA on what's going on with observed. >>Yeah, so we're, uh, the company is now what a rough and tough. About three years old, we got about 40 people. Uh we're well-funded by sort of Hill ventures. Uh, they were the original investors in, in snowflake. Um, and, um, yeah, I mean, we we've, we've well, more than doubled in size since the COVID lockdown began. We had about 15 people when that began. We've got almost 40 now. Um, and I would anticipate in the next year we're, we're probably going to double in size again, but, um, yeah, really the core focus in the company is, is understanding and analyzing vast quantities of data. And so anybody who is interested in, uh, that space look us up >>Mainly any areas, obviously engineering and the other areas okay. >>Near in all over. I mean, we, you know, w w w as you'll see, if you go to observing.com, we've got a pretty slick front end. Uh, we invested very early on in design and UX design. So we believe that you are, can be a differentiator. So we've got some amazing engineers on the front end. Uh, so going to can always do with the help there, but obviously, um, you know, there's a data processing platform here as well. Um, we, uh, we do run on top of snowflake. We, we do have a number of folks here who are very familiar, uh, you know, with the snowflake database and, and how to write efficiency equals. So, so front and backend. Um, we very soon, I think we'll be starting to expand the sales team. Um, we're really starting to get our initial set of customers and the feedback loop rule in rolling into engineering. And my hope would be, you know, probably early part of next year, we re we really start to nail the product market fit. Um, and we've got a huge release coming in the early part of next year where that the metrics and alerting functionality will be in the product. So, yeah, it's, it's sort of all systems go right now. >>Congratulations. Love to see the entrepreneurial journey. We'll keep an eye out for you and you're in a hot space. So we'll be riding, you'll be riding that wave, uh, question for you on the, um, just kind of the industry, uh, you're in the heart of Silicon Valley. Like I am honestly, I'm fellow Alto, you're up in the Hillsborough area. Um, I think you're in Hillsborough, right? That's where you, where you live. Um, San Francisco, the Valley, the pandemic pretty hard hit right now. People are sheltering in place, but still a lot of activity. Um, what are you hearing in, um, in, in the VC circles, startup circles, as everyone looks at coming out of the pandemic and you look at Amazon and you look at what snowflake has done. I mean, snowflake was built on top of Amazon competing against Redshift. Um, okay. They were hugely successful at doing that. So there's kind of this new playbook emerging. What are, what are people talking about? What's the scuttlebutt. >>Yeah. I mean, clearly TAC has done very well throughout what has been, you know, like just a terrible environment. Um, I think both kind of socially and economically, and I think what's going on in the stock market right now is probably not reflective of the, of the economic situation. And I think a lot of the indices are dominated by tech companies. So you, if you're not careful, you can get a little bit of a false read. Um, but look, what is undisputed is, is that the world is going to become more digital, more tech centric than, than less. Um, so I think there is a very, very bright future, you know, for tech, um, that there is certainly plenty of VC money, um, available. Um, you know, that is not really changed materially in the last year. Um, so if you have a good idea, if you're on one of these major trends, I think that there is a very good chance that you can get the company funded. >>Um, and you know, our, our expectation is that, you know, next year, obviously industries are going to return to work that have been dominant maybe for the last six, nine months. And so some parts of the economy should pick up again, but I would also tell you, I think certain, uh, sort of habits are not going to die. I mean, I think more things are going to be done online and we've gotten used to that way of working and, and you know, what, not, some of it is measurable. I don't know about cocktails over zoom, but working with customers, um, in some respects is easier because they're not traveling, we're not traveling. So we both have more time. Uh, it's sometimes easy to get meetings with people that you would never get. Now. Now, can you do an efficient sales process, education proof of concept? You know, those processes maybe have to grow up a little bit to be taken online, but I think the certain parts of the last, maybe six to nine months that we don't want to throw away and go back to the way we were doing it, because I think, you know, maybe this way of doing it is, is more efficient. >>What do you think about the, uh, entrepreneurial journeys out there? Obviously, um, Amazon we're here covering re-invent is really kind of, you know, building a massive compute engine. They've got higher level services and, you know, I've been speculating for years. I think snowflake is the first kind of big sign. That points to kind of what I said five years ago, which is there's going to be an opportunity for these other clouds as specialty clouds. I called them might be the wrong word, but snowflake basically built on top of Amazon, you know, most valuable company ever on wall street, uh, IPO on someone else's cloud. So is that a playbook? I mean, is that a move? I mean, this is kind of like a new thing. >>Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I, I feel like on databases, I've got a lot of history on management, Oracle almost 10 years. And you know, what snowflake does they did was they, they rearchitected the database explicitly for the cloud. I mean, you can run Oracle on the cloud, but, but it, but it doesn't do things the way that snowflake does it. Right. I mean, snowflake uses commodity storage. It uses S3 it's elastic. And so when you're not using it, you're not paying it. And these things sound very simple and very obvious now, which is I think what, what, what the genius of the founders, you know, Ben Warren and Tre, uh, work, and, and I think there will be other costs, you know, categories of infrastructure that will get rearchitected and reinvented for the cloud. And, you know, I've got equally big opportunities. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think the model, I believe firmly that the model is if you're a startup, you don't need to waste a lot of time, like reinventing the wheel on data center, infrastructure and databases, and a lot of the services that you would use to construct an application. >>You, you, you can start, you know, if, if the building that you're trying to build is like 12 floors, you can start at the eighth or ninth floor. Um, you know, I've, I've got like what three or 400 quality engineers at snowflake that are building our database. I don't, I don't need to do that. I can just piggyback on top of what they've done and add value. And, you know, the, the, the beautiful thing, you know, now, if you're a business out there thinking of, of, of, of becoming digital and reinventing yourself, or you're a startup just getting going, there's a lot of stuff you just don't have to build anymore. You just don't even have to think about it. >>Yeah. This is the new program of bull internet. It's internet, truly 2.0 or 3.0, whatever 4.0, a complete reset of online. And I think the pandemic, as you pointed out on many cube interviews and Andy Jassy send his keynote is on full display right now. And I think the smart money and smart entrepreneurs are going to see the opportunities. Okay. >>Yeah. It comes back to ideas and a great, I mean, I've always been a product person. Um, but look at great idea, a great product idea and a great product idea that, that capitalizes on the big trends in the industry. I think there's always going to be funding for those kinds of things. I don't know a lot about the consumer world I've always worked in, in B2B, but, um, you know, the kind of things that you're going to be able to do in future. I mean, think about it. If storage is essentially free and compute is essentially free. Just imagine what you could do, right. Jeremy, >>This is the new consumer. Get out. Let's understand that. Finally, B2B is the new consumer enterprise is hot. I was, again, it was riffing on this all week. All the things going on in enterprise is complex is now the new consumers now all connected. It's all one thing. The consumerization of it, the condition of computing has happened. It's going on. So you're a leader. Thank you for coming on. Great to see you as always, um, say hi to your family and stay safe. >>Yeah, you too. Thanks for the invite. Always, always a pleasure. >>Jeremy Burton breaking down the analysis of day two of week three of re-invent coverage. I'm John furry with the cube virtual. We're not in person anymore. Virtualization has allowed us to do more interviews over 110 interviews so far for re-invent and tomorrow, Thursday at two o'clock, Andy Jassy will spend 30 minutes with me here on the cube, looking back at re-invent the highs, the lows, and what's next for Amazon web services. I'm chef Aria. Thanks for watching.

>> From around the globe, it's theCube, with digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by, AWS Worldwide Public Sector. >> Okay, welcome back to theCube's coverage, of re:Invent 2020 virtual. It's theCube virtual, I'm John Farrow your host, we're here celebrating, the special coverage of public sector with Sandy Carter, vice president of AWS Public Sector Partners. She heads up the partner group within Public Sector, now in multiple for about a year now. Right Sandy, or so? >> Right, you got it, John. >> About a year? Congratulations, welcome back to theCube, >> Thank you. >> for reason- >> Always a pleasure to be here and what an exciting re:Invent right? >> It's been exciting, we've got wall-to-wall coverage, multiple sets, a lot of actions, virtual it's three weeks, we're not in person we have to do it remote this year. So when real life comes back, we'll bring the Cube back. But I want to take a minute to step back, take a minute to explain your role for the folks that are new to theCube virtual and what you're doing over there at Public Sector. Take a moment to introduce yourself to the new viewers. >> Well, welcome. theCube is phenomenal, and of course we love our new virtual re:Invent as well, as John said, my name is Sandy Carter and I'm vice president with our public sector partners group. So what does that mean? That means I get to work with thousands of partners globally covering exciting verticals like, space and healthcare, education, state and local government, federal government, and more. And what I get to do is, to help our partners learn more about AWS so that they can help our customers really be successful in the marketplace. >> What has been the most, exciting thing for you in the job? >> Well, you know, I love, wow, I love everything about it, but I think one of the things I love the most, is how we in Public Sector, really make technology have a meaningful impact on the world. So John, I get to work with partners like Orbis which is a non-profit they're fighting preventable blindness. They're a partner of ours. They've got something called CyberSec AI which enables us to use machine learning over 20 different machine learning algorithms to detect common eye diseases in seconds. So, you know, that purpose for me is so important. We also work with a partner called Twist Inc it's hard to say, but it just does a phenomenal job with AWS IoT and helps make water pumps, smart pumps. So they are in 7,300 remote locations around the world helping us with clean water. So for me that's probably the most exciting and meaningful part of the job that I have today. >> And it's so impactful because you guys really knew Amazon's business model has always been about enablement from startups to now up and running Public Sector; entities, agencies, education, healthcare, again, and even in spaces, this IoT in space. But you've been on the 100 partner tour over a 100 days. What did you learn, what are you hearing from partners now? What's the messages that you're hearing? >> Well, first of all, it was so exciting. I had a 100 different partner meetings in a 100 days because John, just like you, I missed going around the world and meeting in person. So I said, well, if I can't meet in person I will do a virtual tour and I talked to partners, in 68 different countries. So a couple of things I heard, one is a lot of love for our map program and that's our migration acceleration program. We now have funding available for partners as they assess migration, we can mobilize it and as they migrate it. And you may or may not know, but we have over twice the number of migration competency partners doing business in Public Sector this year, than we did last year. The second thing we heard was that, partners really love our marketing programs. We had some really nice success this year showcasing value for our customers with cyber security. And I love that because security is so important. Andy Jassy always talks about how her customers really have that as priority zeros. So we were able to work with a couple of different areas that we were very proud at and I loved that the partners were too. We did some repeatable solutions with our consulting partners. And then I think the third big takeaway that I saw was just our partners love the AWS technology. I heard a lot about AI and ML. We offered this new program called The Rapid Adoption Assistance Program. It's going global in 2021, and so we help partners brainstorm and envision what they could do with it. And then of course, 5G. 5G is ushering in, kind of a new era of new demand. And we going to to do a PartnerCast on all about 5G for partners in the first quarter. >> Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot. What are the three most talked about programs that you heard? >> Oh, wow, let's see. The three most talked about programs that I heard about, the first one was, is something I'm really excited about. It's called a Think Big for Small Business. It really focuses in on diverse partner groups and types. What it does is it provides just a little bit of extra boost to our small and medium businesses to help them get some of the benefits of our AWS partner program. So companies like MFT they're based down in South Africa it's a husband and wife team that focus on that Black Economic Empowerment rating and they use the program to get some of the go to market capability. So that's number one. Let's see, you said three. Okay, so number two would be our ProServe ready pilot. This helps to accelerate our partner activation and enablement and provides partners a way to get badged on the ProServe best practices get trained up and does opportunity matching. And I think a lot of partners were kind of buzzing about that program and wanting to know more about it. And then ,last but not least, the one that I think of probably really has impact to time to compliance it's called ATO or Authority to Operate and what we do is we help our partners, both technology partners and consulting partners get support for compliance framework. So FedRAMP, of course, we have over 129 solutions right now that are FedRAMPed but we also added John, PCI for financial HIPPA for healthcare, for public safety, IRS 1075 for international GDPR and of course for defense, aisle four, five and six, and CMMC. That program is amazing because it cuts the time to market and have cuts across and have and really steps partners through all of our best practices. I think those are the top three. >> Yeah, I've been like a broken record for the folks that don't know all my interviews I've done with Public Sector over the years. The last one is interesting and I think that's a secret sauce that you guys have done, the compliance piece, being an entrepreneur and starting companies that first three steps in a cloud of dust momentum the flywheel to get going. It's always the hardest and getting the certification if you don't have the resources, it's time consuming. I think you guys really cracked the code on that. I really want to call that out 'cause that's I think really super valuable for the folks that pay attention to and of course sales enablement through the program. So great stuff. Now, given that's all cool, (hands claps) the question I have and I hear all the time is, okay, I'm involved I got a lot of pressure pandemic has forced me to rethink I don't have a lot of IT I don't have a big budget I always complaint but not anymore. Mandate is move fast, get built out, leverage the cloud. Okay, I want to get going. What's the best ways for me to grow with Public Sector? How do I do that if I'm a customer, I really want to... I won't say take a shortcut because there's probably no shortage. How do I throttle up? Quickly, what's your take on that? >> Well, John, first I want to give one star that came to us from a Twilio. They had interviewed a ton of companies and they found that there was more digital transformation since March since when the pandemic started to now than in the last five years. So that just blew me away. And I know all of our partners are looking to see how they can really grow based on that. So if you're a consulting partner, one of the things that we say to help you grow is we've already done some integrations and if you can take advantage of those that can speed up your time to market. So I know know this one, the VMware Cloud on AWS. what a powerful integration, it provides protection of skillsets to your customer, increases your time to market because now VMware, vSphere, VSAN is all on AWS. So it's the same user interface and it really helps to reduce costs. And there's another integration that I think really helps which is Amazon connect one of our fastest growing areas because it's a ML AI, breads solution to help with call centers. It's been integrated with Salesforce but the Service Cloud and the Sales Cloud. So how powerful is that this integrated customer workflow? So I think both of those are really interesting for our consulting partners. >> That's a great point. In fact, well, that's the big part of the story here at re:Invent. These three weeks has been the integration. Salesforce as you mentioned connect has been huge and partner- >> Huge >> so just just great success again, I've seen great momentum. People are seeing their jobs being saved, they're saving lives. People are pretty excited and it's certainly a lot of work you've done in healthcare and education two big areas of activity which is really hard corporation, really, really hard. So congratulations on that and great work. Great to see you, I going to ask you one final question. What's the big message for your customers watching as they prepare for 2021 real life is coming back vaccines on the horizon. We're hearing some good news a lot of great cloud help there. What's your message to send to 2021? >> 2021, for our partners for 2021, one, there is a tremendous growth ahead and tremendous value that our partners have added. And that's both on the mission side, which both Theresa and I discussed during our sessions as well as technology. So I think first messages is, there's lots of growth ahead and a lot of ways that we can add value. Second is, all of those programs and initiatives, there's so much help out there for partners. So look for how you could really accelerate using some of those areas on your customer journey as you're going along. And then finally, I just want John, everybody to know , that we love our partners and AWS is there to help you every step of the way. And if you need anything at all obviously reach out to your PDM or your account manager or you're always welcome to reach out to me. And my final message is just, thank you, through so many different things that have happened in 2020, our partners have come through amazingly with passion with value and just with persistence, never stopping. So thank you to all of our partners out there who've really added so much value to our customers. >> And Amazon is recognizing the leadership of partners in the work you're doing. Your leadership session was awesome for the folks who missed it, check it out on demand. Thank you very much, Sandy for coming on the sharing the update. >> Thank you, John, and great to see all your partners out there. >> Okay, this is theCube virtual covering AWS re:Invent 2020 virtual three weeks, wall-to-wall coverage. A lot of videos ,check out all the videos on demand the leadership sessions, theCube videos and of course the Public Sector video on demand. Micro-site with theCube. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angled media. >>Okay, welcome back. Everyone's keeps coverage here in San Francisco for RSA. Copper's 2020. I'm John Farrow, your host, you know, cybersecurity industry's changing and enterprises are now awake to the fact that is now a bigger picture around securing the enterprise cause it's not only the data center, it's cloud, it's the edge. A lot of great stuff. I've got a great guest here from Dell, EMC, Peter Garris, consultant cyber resilient solutions and services marketing, uh, Dell EMC. Great to see you. Thanks for to John. Good to see you again. So you know, I was joking with Dave Alante just this morning around the three ways of cloud, public cloud, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud. And we see obviously the progression hybrid cloud is where everyone spend most of their time. That's from ground to cloud on premises to cloud. Yep. So pretty much everyone knows around on premise is not going away, validated by all the big cloud players. >>But you've got to nail the equation down for on premises to the cloud, whether it's Amazon, Amazon, Azure, Azure, whatever, all those costs. But the multicloud will be a next generation wave that is an industry backdrop and it's very, very key. Plus AI and data are huge inputs into solving a lot of what is going to be new gaps, blind spots, whatever insecurity. So I guess, you know, Dell's has a history with huge client base, traditional enterprises transforming. You're in the middle of all this. So you've got, you know, the airplane at three to 30,000 feet. Yep. And the companies have to swap out their engines and reboot their teams and it's a huge task. What's going on with cyber and the enterprises? What are, what are some of the key things? Well, so I like to keep it pretty simple. I've been in this industry over 20 years and I've really consistently talked about data as the global currency, right. >>So it's beautifully simple. Whatever industry you're in, whatever size company you're in, enterprise or even now, small to medium businesses, their businesses are driven by data connectivity. That data availability of the data, integrity of the data and confidentiality of the data, and so the sort of the area of the world that I focus upon is protecting customers. Most valuable data assets now, whether those are on prem, in the cloud or in a variety of modalities, and ensuring that those assets are protected and isolated from the attack surface and then ability to recover those critical assets quickly so they can return resume business operations. That's really the area that I work in. Now, that data, as you pointed out, it could start on prem, it could live in multi-cloud, it can live in a hybrid environment. The key is really to to understand that not all data is created equally if you were to have a widespread cyber attack, really the key is to bring up those critical applications, systems and datasets first to return to business operations. >>Really challenging. You know, it's not funny. It's actually, I just, I run it, but it's, it's, it's, it's really kind of indicative of the society now is that EMC was bought by Dell storage and the idea of disruption was always been a storage concept. Yes, we want, we don't want a lot of disruption when we're doing things right. So not know whether it's backup and recovery or cyber ransomware, whatever it is, the idea of non-disruptive operations. Absolutely. A core tenant. Now that's obviously the same for cyber as you can tell. So I've got to ask you, what is your definition in view of cyber resilience because, well, that's what we're talking about here. Cyber resilience. What's your view on this? So when we started developing our cyber recovery solution about five years ago, we used, uh, the NIST cybersecurity framework, which is a very well known standard that defines really five pillars of how organizations can think about building a cyber resilience strategy. >>A cyber resilience strategy really encompasses everything from a perimeter threat detection and response all the way through incident response after an attack. And everything that happens in between protecting the data and recovering the data, right? And critical systems. So I think of cyber resilience is that holistic strategy of protecting an organization and its data from a cyber attack as great insight. I want to get your thoughts on how that translates into the ecosystem. Okay. Because there's an ecosystem around cyber resilience. Absolute, let's just say, and you may or may not be able to comment on this, but RSA was now being sold. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's going out of the Dell family. But you guys have, you know, obviously VMware and insecure words, but it's not just you guys. It's an ecosystem. It really is. Does Dell now without, with and without RSA fit into the ecosystem. >>So as I mentioned, cyber resilience is really thought of as a holistic strategy. RSA and, and other Dell assets like carbon black, um, fit in somewhere in that continuum. Right? So RSA is really more on threat detection and response, perimeter protection. The area of the business that I work on, data protection and cyber recovery really doesn't address the, um, prevention of attacks. We really start with the premise that preventing a cyber attack is not a hundred percent possible. If you believe that, then you need to look at protecting and recovering your assets. Right? And so whether it's RSA, whether it's carbon black, whether it's secure works, which is about cyber incident and response, we really work across those groups. It's, it's about technology processes and people. It's not any one thing. We also work outside of the Dell technologies umbrella. So we integrate, our cyber recovery solution is integrated with Unisys stealth. >>Uh, so there's an example of how we're expanding and extending the cyber recovery solution to bring in, you know, other industry standards. You know, it's interesting, I talked to a lot of people that come on the Q of history here at RSA. Sure. Everyone wants better technology, but this also has shipped back the best of breed because you one of the best new technologies. At the same time, you've gotta have proven solutions. So what are you guys selling? What is the best of breed from, uh, Dell? Yeah, you guys are delivering to customers. What are some of the areas? So I, I'm old EMC guy myself, right? And, and back from the days of disaster recovery and business continuity, right? More traditional data protection and backup. The reality is that the modern threats of cyber sec of cyber hackers, breaches, insider attacks, whatever you like, those traditional data protection strategies weren't built to address those types of threats. >>So along with transformation and modernization, we need to modernize our data protection. That's what cyber recovery is. It's a modern solution to the modern threat. And what it does is it augments your data or your, excuse me, your disaster recovery and your backup environment with a purpose built isolated air gap digital vault, which is built around our proven data domain and power protect DD platforms. Uh, that, you know, I've been around for over a decade. Um, but what we've done is added intelligence, uh, analytics. We've hardened that system and we isolate it. Uh, so customers can protect really the most valuable assets in that kind of evolved. So one of the things I've been doing some research on and digging into is cyber resilience, which you just talked about cybersecurity, which is the industry trend and you're getting at cyber recovery. Okay. Can you talk about some examples of how this all threads together? >>What are some real recent examples? Sure. So think of cyber recovery as a purpose-built digital vault to secure your most valuable assets. Let me give you an example. One of our customers, is it a global paint manufacturer? Okay. And when we work with them to try to decide what of their apps and datasets should go into this cyber recovery vault, it said, what is the most critical intellectual property that you have? So in their Kenyan, Oh, some customers might say my Oracle financials or my office three 65 environment. For this customer it was their proprietary paint matching system. So they generate 80 to $100 million every day based upon this proprietary paint matching system, which they've developed and which they use every day to run their business. If that application, if those algorithms were destroyed, contaminated or you know, posted on the public internet somewhere, that would fundamentally change that company. >>So that's really what we're talking about. We're working with customers to help them identify their most critical assets, data systems, applications, and isolate those from the threat vector. Obviously all verticals are impacted by cyber security. Every vertical is data-driven. That's true. Obviously the low hanging fruit, are they below the normal suspects financial services? Is there, is there a particular one that's harder than having financial services got fraud and all that stuff on it, but yeah, that's still number one or so. I think there's two sides to the coin. One, if you look at the traditional enterprise environments, absolutely financial services in healthcare because they're both heavily regulated, uh, therefore that data has very high value and is a very attractive target to the Woodby hackers. If you look on the other end of the spectrum though, the small to medium businesses that all rely on the internet for their business to run, uh, they're the ones that are most susceptible because they don't have the budgets, the infrastructure or the expertise to protect themselves from a sophisticated hacker. >>Um, so we, you know, we work across all verticals. Obviously the government is also very susceptible to cyber threats, but it's every industry, any business that's data-driven. I mean, everyone's been breached so many times and no one even knows how many times. Uh, I gotta ask you about, um, um, some cool trends we're reporting on here. Sure. Homomorphic encryption is getting a lot of traction here because financial services in healthcare homomorphic homomorphic yeah. Okay. Did I say that right? Oh, it's the first time I've ever heard that term, John. I, it's encryption at end use. So you have data at rest, data in flight and data and use encryption. When you're doing all, you're protecting all your transactional data. Ah, so it's focusing with discovery. Intel's promoting it. Uh, we just covered a startup that's doing that as well. That's new, that's new for me, but allows for more use cases, but data and use, not just motion static. >>Yeah. That's opening up these other things. But it brings up the why, why that's important. And the reason is, is that financial services and healthcare, because they're regulated. Yes. Have systems that were built many moons ago or generations. Absolutely. So there was not these problems that you mentioned earlier that were built for that, but now you need more data. AI needs sharing of data sharing is a huge deal. Real time share real time. Right. And I think that's where the homomorphic encryption comes in. That's exactly right. So you mentioned that, so these industries, how can they maintain their existing operations and then get more data share? Do you have any insight into how you see that? Because that's one of those areas that's becoming like, okay, HIPAA, we know why that was built, but it's also restrictive. Yeah. How do you maintain the purity of a process if your infrastructure is, is old? >>That is, that is a challenge. Healthcare especially because, I mean, if I'm, if I'm, uh, you know, running a health system, every dollar that I have should really go into improving patient care, not necessarily into my it infrastructure, but the more that every industry moves towards a real time data-driven model for, for how we give care. Right? Yeah. Um, the more that, uh, companies need to realize that data drives their business, they need to do everything they can to protect it and also ensure that they can recover it when and if a cyber attack happens. Well, I really appreciate the insight and it's going to be great to see Dell technologies world coming up. We'll dig into a lot of that stuff while we're here on talking to us about some of this financial service in banking. I want to get your thoughts, I've been hearing this term sheltered Harbor. >>Yeah. Being kicked around. What does that about? What does that mean? Sheltered Harbor? You're right, I think you'll hear a lot more about it. So sheltered Harbor, uh, was, uh, is it isn't financial industries group and it's also a set of, uh, best practices and specifications. And really the, the purpose of sheltered Harbor is to protect consumer and financial institutions data, uh, and public confidence in the U S financial system. So the, the, the use cases, this, you can imagine that a, a bank having a cyber attack and B being unable to produce transactions could cause problems for customers of that bank. But the, just like we were talking about the interconnectedness of the banking system means that one financial institution failing because of a cyber attack, it could trigger a cascade and a panic and a run on the U S financial banks. And therefore the global financial system sheltered Harbor was developed to really protect public confidence in the financial system by ensuring that banks, brokerages, credit unions are protecting their customer data, their account records, their most valuable assets from cyber attack and that they can recover them and resume banking operations quick. >>So this is an industry group. It's an industry build group. Sheltered Harbor is a U S financial, uh, industry group. Uh, it's a nonprofit. You can, you can learn more about it. It's sheltered harbor.org. Uh, the interesting thing for Dell technologies is we're actually the first member of the sheltered Harbor solution provider program and we'll be announcing that shortly. In fact this week and we'll have a cyber recovery for sheltered Harbor solution in the market very shortly. Cyber resilience. Great topic, and you know, it just goes to show storage has never gone away. The basic concepts of it, recovery, continuous operations, not disruptive operations. Yeah, cloud scale changes the game. It's all about the data. All about the data. Still sites, RSA coverage here, cube day, two of three days of coverage. I'm John furrier here on the ground floor in Moscone in San Francisco. Thanks for watching.

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS. Reinvent 20 nineteens brought to you by Amazon web services and they don't care along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back. Everyone is the cubes live covers in Las Vegas for AWS. Reinvent 2019 it's our seventh year covering Amazon reinvent. They've only had the conference for eight years. We've been documenting history. I'm John Farrow, stupid man. Dave Alante, John Walls, Jeff, Rick, they're all on the other step two sets sponsored by Intel. Want to thank their support without their generous support to our mission. We wouldn't be able to bring this great content. Our next guest to talk about the IOT edge jerk DDoSs column. Perfect. Welcome back. VP of IOT. Well the Greek names. Yeah, I'm half Greek, half German so I can expect, okay. Is smart. Good. So Derek, I gotta ask you, so IOT is hot. Explain quickly your role at AWS because you're not an I-Team specifically define your scope. So my scope is owning all or my team's sculpt is owning old software services and tools that deal with non it equipment. >>So when you go to AWS and look for IOT, all the service that you'll find, that's the scope of my teams and this it group which have all the it stuff and just feels like cars, manufacturing sensors, all of the axioms for the NFL, all that good stuff. So women, you're going to see Edelweiss so I go AWS, amazon.com and then you're fine either. means all of our compute, all of our databases, all of our storage and there's also all of our and Melanie and I and then there's an IOT section and there you find all of the goodness that we do for IOT. You know, it's exciting. Stu and I talking about all week here, the whole cloud native, you take the T out of cloud native, it's cloud naive. You've got the general commercial business and public sector barely getting their act together. They're transforming, they're doing it now. >>He's $1 trillion on a vouch. Trillions of dollars of of change coming. Good up business opportunity. But if they're having trouble transforming, you get this whole new world of industrial edge which requires computing cars manufactured. This is a hot area. So a lot of change happening. What is the most important story people should pay attention to in your area that that's notable for this collision of all this transformation? I think maybe the most notable story that we currently have is a corporation that they do with the VW, which is the largest a car manufacturer. And you were just lucky that via their CIO mountain Huffman being part of Verona for good's keynote, our CTO. So if you haven't seen that, just go and review the keynote of Verner and then as the larger part then he was talking about all of that, what he calls industrial 4.0, this digitization fourth revolution. And Martin did an awesome job explaining what are we doing together with them to build their industrial cloud. Yeah. >>Uh, well, one of the things we've been really watching is the, the extent that Amazon services are starting to push out. Uh, I've been super excited, really looking at some of the growth of there. Your team did a bunch of announcements ahead of the show including the one that caught my eye the most was the IOT green grass sport for Lambda and Docker. Maybe start there and walk us through some of the new pieces that in your org. Okay. >>Maybe for us to understand the offer three type of offerings for our customers. One is device software, which might sound strange that a cloud company actually gives you a software that it's not running on the cloud, but then you're talking about IOT. You need software running on your devices in order to be able to be controlled and communicate with the cloud and we have an offering in that area which is called IOT Greenglass, which is a software runtime that you can install on edge devices like gateways for example, and via announced junior additions to our IOT Greenglass. One is Docker supports, which was very important because up till now green were supporting machine learning at the edge and Lambda, which is our service offering, but many companies now more established enterprises said, you know what, I have legacy applications which I can package. Can I deploy them as well? >>Now you can deploy Docker containers, Lambda functions, and a melody edge all with one goal with green glass at the edge. So that was one of the announcements we did for our device >> software. They're, I want to get your thoughts on an area that we're reporting on and doing a lot of investigation, collecting a lot of data, talking to a lot of people and that's around the industrial IOT or IOT, industrial IOT. And one of our big concerns, I want to get your reaction to this and thoughts is security is of paramount importance because it's not just a DDoS attack or some malware which is causing credit card data or these kinds of theft. You could actually take over machines. People could die this and serious issues around the guarantee. This is the number one conversation. What is the state of the art security posture in your area around software and the edge? >>So at AWS, whether it's IOT or any other workloads, we always say if you have two primary zeros, one is security and one is operations. Because if any company puts their faith in us, if we are down, their business is down and if there would be any security issues, of course all the trust would be broken and we do the exact same approach. Now with IOT, so we built our services with security in mind. For example, when you connect to AWS IOT core, every single individual device needs to have certificates to be identified. If you require that you can encrypt your data, it doesn't even lo you to connect to the cloud without encryption. We have software, as I said, at the edge with Amazon free artists and Greengrass where we support all of the hardware TM modules that you have security postures there. If you have secrets managers, they even have an award winning clout. >>If you're like security tool, which is called IOT device management, but at any given point in time audits but the you configured correctly and does something like detection. If something's going wrong, like when you get your credit card and said, Hey, by the way, have you been in this country? Candy making any purchase? If you figure out if something's going wrong with your device >> and you feel good that it's built in from zero, I mean you've got DNS tax going on. What? I mean you feel comfortable that it's, I mean we believe whatever we build, you can never be 100% sure and security is always evolving. But we believe that we are at the forefront of being, you're always the latest and greatest technology at the hands of our customers. >>Jerks. That's really powerful. Cause I saw one of the other announcements was really taking the Alexa voice service integration, but if I understand it rightly, it pulls that core along. So you know part of me was like, it's like okay Alexa enabled everywhere. That's great. I don't need 700 devices in my house that all have that. But the security piece is going to be needed everywhere. So help us tease that out. >>Maybe, maybe don't understand what we did you ask about the other launches. We also launched something called AVS integration for IUT and AVS stands for Alexa voice services. So if you know Alexa, that's our digital assistant that runs for example an equity devices, but if you want to build a device as a third party, which you can directly talk to media, there's microphones and speakers that is called AVS or Alexa built in devices and if you wanted to build one today you needed to put quite some resources onto this device because it needs to understand you. It needs to have a lot of audio processing. That means there's a lot of memory involved and quite some processing. Now I'm using some technical terms. You need something like a cortex, a CPU which makes this device expensive. So the bill of material is quite elevated and we were working with our Alexa team saying is how can we make this really, really affordable? >>If you found a trick where we said let's offload all of this audio processing to the cloud that you an eSense can build very dumb devices. The only thing that these devices don't need to do is have microphones, have our speaker and what we call a week work detection. They need to wake up and you say, Alexa, echo computer, everything else gets streamed to the cloud. Ptosis sits there and comes back so that you can reduce cost for those devices by at least a factor of half. And we had a great customer on stage as well because if you can make so cheap Alexa built in devices, you can put this into a light switch and iDevices now believe it or not, non-sales light switch. Yup. Which you can now directly talk to, reach, talks back and place your music. They're talking about your role. Again, I want to understand that you are not technical side, your development teams. What are you, what do you do on a daily basis? What's your job? So officially I'm a VP of engineering, so I'm a tech guy, so I love the hoodie. By the way. This is tech. That's because I'm on video. Okay. >>It looks great. So I'm an engineer by Heights and at Amazon we don't have a separation between businesses and product management and engineering. They call it a single thread of leaders that we believe the teams have to own it all. So that means my teams on everything from the conception of their services, the development operations that what be called dev ops and also the business behind. So that means all of the services, whether it's free outro, screen grabs at the edge, but it's IOT core device management and defender or our data services like IOT analytics or your talked about industrial site wise, their health or being conceived by my teams. They have all been developed and they are all operated today so that all customers can use that as it make. What should people >>totally does. Thanks for clarifying. That's awesome. Uh, what should people pay attention to? What should we be reporting on in your area? What are some of the key things that people watching this should pay attention to in this, in your IOT area? What are the most important items and products and services that you're doing? I think >>one of the most important things to understand is be talk just before the interview about this, that a lot of the technical hurdles actually solve that because we have the software on devices, we have the connectivity controlled services, and we have all the analytic services to make sense of the data that you can take actions. You don't need to be an expert in machine learning anymore to do machine learning at AWS. You don't have to be an embedded software developer to get connected devices. You don't have to be a data scientist to understand what your data does. The most interesting part though is there is a cultural aspect of this because in the past you had to ideally most likely in your old company join said, Oh, I would like to connect something, so do I have a purchase acquisition? Can I go to my finance team? Does it install this today? You don't need that anymore. With AWS IOT, the same thing that happens with the cloud and it happens with IOT. So understanding that via very powerful tools for engineers in the company that you can build at any given point in time. I think that's maybe the most, >>and I think the it, I think that whole process of the time it takes, they go to the airport on Thanksgiving, go through TSA and knows all that pre ocracy. And then the other thing too is that the other IOT used to be kind of a closed system self, um, form dot devices. Now you've got with Clough, you've got a lot more range and compatibility. Can you talk about that address, address that issue? Because there might be still legacy out there and no problem. It's data's data, but those are the days come in the cloud. But there's now a new shift happening where it's not just, you know, fully monolithic OT devices if it, so the pasta >>monolithic what's called machine to machine, close systems, IOT is the opposite there. It's where you say now all the devices and connections can be done in between the devices and the cloud. So it's system of systems. And in order to make that happen. For example, when you call it the legacy systems, we also announced on Monday and our IOT day additional features for IOT core that you can migrate legacy systems much easier to the cloud without that you need to update your devices. >>Yeah. Dirk, one of the things I find most interesting about your space as you span between the consumer and the enterprise piece, so I remember a few years ago there was like a hackathon on building skills for Alexa and it got lots of people involved. There was a giveaway of lots of the devices there. You know, we used to talk about the consumerization of it. How is what's happening in the tumor world? You know, how is the enterprise going to take care of take that and transform business as we see IOT permeating everywhere. >>So the capabilities that you need, whether you're going in industrial or in consumer or in the medical or pick your favorite other vertical is in essence the same. You need to connect the devices. You need to ensure that they're secure. We talked about security. You need to make sense of the data, whether you do this in the home with your television or your light switch or your robot, or you do the exact same thing with the most sophisticated robot in the industry. It's the same thing. The good thing about us handling all of those sites is that the scale that we gain with literally hundreds of millions of devices now managed by our service in the backend of course means we will handle all of that scale also in the industry and the security and postures and complexity that we need to handle an industrial also benefits computer, so our consumer side, so you benefit from both sides, very cheap and scale on the one industrial benefit. Very complex. How do you solve that consumable benefit, so it's very fruitful synergies if you like, >>Oh, you guys love to solve problems at Amazon that's going to eat those. Yeah. Derek, thank you so much for coming on and sharing the insights and what you're working on and what's important. Congratulations on all your success. Thank you so much. The threaded leader here. Final question for you. Eighth year of reinvent. It gets bigger every year. Louder. Crazier for parties, more business development more. Exactly. I mean just, it's crazy. Yeah. It's just say work hard, play hard. What is your favorite thing going on here? What's the coolest thing that you've seen? >>I think the coolest thing, and it might sound a little cheeky, is, is the excitement from all of our customers and partners coming here every year. >>PR tells you to say, I'm not about fraud. I mean, you're talking about products. I love my products. I'm still so happy about that. I mean, I can talk to a light switch now. Well, you see the comma car and the other quad had the area that we have yet. It's a very different experience that you can do. Don't talk to your lights, which when you get home your wife will think you're going crazy. I love that. Thank you for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having cube coverage here. All I'm, we're going to wrap up here. Keep coverage with Derek runs all the IOT for with an AWS exciting new area. It's going to change the game on architecture and solutions are being baked out in real time. We're here breaking out the cube in real time. I'm John. Thanks for watching.