>>Live from Barcelona, Spain, execute covering CubeCon cloud native con Europe, 2019 onto you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back. We're here in Barcelona, Spain where 7,700 attendees are here for Q con cloud native con. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes live two day coverage having to have on the program to returning guests to talk about five years of Kubernetes. To my right is Tim Hawkin wearing the Barna contributors shirt. Uh, and uh, sitting to his right is gay Bon Roy. So, uh, I didn't introduce their titles and companies, but you know, so Tim's and Google gives it Microsoft, uh, but you know, heavily involvement in uh, you know, Coobernetti's since the very early days. I mean, you know, Tim, you're, you're on the Wikipedia page game, you know, I think we have to do some re editing to make sure we get the community expanded in some of the major contributors and get you on there. But gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. >>Alright. Uh, so, you know, Tim just spoke to Joe Beda and we talked about, you know, the, the, the idea of, you know, Craig and Brendan and him sitting in the room and, you know, open source and, you know, really bringing this out there to community. But let's start with you. Cause he, you know, uh, I remember back many times in my career like, Oh, I read this phenomenal paper about Google. You know, we're going to spend the next decade, you know, figuring out the ripple effect of this technology. Um, you know, Coobernetti's has in five years had a major impact on, on what we're doing. Uh, it gives a little bit of your insight is to, you know, what you've seen from those early days, you know. >>Yeah. You know, um, in the early days we had the same conversations we produced. These papers are, you know, seminal in the industry. Um, and then we sort of don't follow up on them sometimes as Google. Um, we didn't want this to be that, right. We wanted this to be alive living thing with a real community. Uh, that took root in a different way than MapReduce, Hadoop sort of situation. Um, so that was very much front of mind as we work through what are we going to build, how are we going to build and how are we going to manage it? How are we going to build a community? How, how do you get people involved? How do you find folks like Gaiman and Deus and get them to say we're in, we want to be a part of this. >>All right, so Gabe, it was actually Joe corrected me when I said, well, Google started it and they pulled in some other like-minded vendors. Like he said, no, no stew. We didn't pull vendors in. We pulled in people and people that believed in the project and the vision, you were one of those people that got pulled in early. He were, you know, so help give us a little context in your, your viewpoint. I did. And, and, and you know, at the time I was working for a company, uh, called, uh, that I had started and we were out there trying to make developers more productive in industry using modern technology like containers. And you know, it was through the process of trying to solve problems for customers, sort of the lens that I was bringing, uh, to this where, um, I was introduced to some really novel technology approaches first through Docker. >>Uh, and you know, I was close with Solomon hikes, the, the founder over there. Uh, and then, you know, started to work closely with folks at Google, uh, namely Brendon burns, who I now work with at Microsoft. Um, you know, part of the, the founding Kubernetes team. Uh, and I, I agree with that statement that it is really about people. It's really about individual connections at the end of the day. Um, I think we do these things that at these coupons, uh, events called the contributor summits. And it's very interesting because when folks land at one of these summits, it's not about who you work for, what Jersey you're wearing, that sort of thing. It's people talking to people, trying to solve technical problems, trying to solve organizational challenges. Uh, and I think, you know, the, the phenomenon that's happened there and the scale with which that's happened is part of the reason why there's 8,000 people here in Barcelona today. >>Yeah. It's interesting to him cause you know, I used to be involved in some standards work and I've been, you know, working with the open source community for about 20 years. It used to be ah, you know, it was the side project that people did at nights and everything like that. Today a lot of the people that are contributing, well they do have a full time job and their job will either let them or asking them to do that. So I do talk to people here that when they're involved in the working groups, when they're doing these things, yes. You think about who their paycheck comes for, but that's secondary to what they're doing as part of the community. And it is, you know, some of the people what, what >>absolutely. It's part of the ethos of the project that the project comes first and if company comes second or maybe even third. Uh, and for the most part, this has been wildly successful. Uh, there's this huge base of trust among, uh, among the leadership and among the contributors. Um, and you know, it's, it's a big enough project now that I don't know every one of the contributors, but we have this web of trust. And, you know, I, I have this, this army of people that I know and I trust very well and they know people and they know people and it works out that the project has been wildly successful and we've never yet had a major conflict or strife that centered on company this or company that. >>Yeah. And I don't, I'd also add that it's an important development has happened in the wake of Kubernetes where, you know, for example, in my teams at Microsoft, I actually have dedicated PM and engineering staff where their only job is to focus on community engagements, right? Running the release team for communities one 15 or working on IPV six support or windows container support. Uh, and, and that work, that upstream work, uh, puts folks in contact with people from all different companies, Google, uh, uh, you know, Microsoft working closely together on countless initiatives. Uh, and the same is true really for the entire community. So I think it's really great to see that you can get not just sort of the interpersonal interactions. We can also get sort of corporate sponsorship of that model. Cause I do think at the end of the day people need to get their paychecks. Uh, and oftentimes that's going to come from a big company. Uh, and, and seeing that level of investment is, I think, uh, pretty encouraging. Okay. Well, you know, luckily five years in we've solved all the problems and everything works perfectly. Um, if that's not maybe the case, where do we need people involved? What things should we be looking at? Kind of the, the, the next year or two in this space, you know, a project >>of this size, a community of this size, a system of this scope has infinite work to do, right? The, the, the barrel is never going to be empty. Um, and in some cases it's filling faster than it's draining. Um, every special interest group, every SIG, it has a backlog of issues of things that they would like to see fixed of features that they have some user pounding the table saying, I need this thing to work. Uh, IPV six is a great example, right? And, and we have people now stepping up to take on these big issues because they have customers who need it or they see it as important foundational work for building future stuff. Um, so, you know, there's, there's no shortage of work to do. That's not just engineering work though, right? It's not just product definition or API. We have a, what we call a contributor experience. People who work with our community to entre online, uh, new contributors and um, and, and streamline how to get them in and involved in documentation and testing and release engineering. And there's so much sort of non-core work. Uh, I could go on on this for. >>Yeah, you're just reminding me of the session this morning is I don't manage clusters. I manage fleets. And you have the same challenge with the people. Yeah. And I also had another dimension to this about just the breadth of contribution. We were just talking before the show that, um, you know, outside at the logo there is this, uh, you know, characters, book characters, and such. And really that came from a children's book that was created to demonstrate core concepts, uh, to developers who were new to Kubernetes. And it ended up taking off and it was eventually donated to the CNCF. Um, but things like that, you can't underestimate the importance and impact that that can have on making sure that Kubernetes is accessible to a really broad audience. Okay. Uh, yeah, look, I want to give you both a, just the, the, the final word as to w what you shout out, you one for the community and uh, yeah. And any special things that have surprised you or exciting you? Uh, you know, here in 2019, >>uh, you know, exciting is being here. If you rewind five years and tell me I'm going to in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends, uh, I would think you are crazy or are from Mars. Um, this is amazing. And uh, I thank everybody who's here, who's made this thing possible. We have a ton of work to do. Uh, and if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on, come talk to me and we'll, we'll figure it out. >>Yeah. And for me, I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintainers folks like Tim, but also, you know, some other folks who, you know, may, you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get hub PRQ you know, trying to just make the project work and function day to day and were it not for their ongoing efforts, we wouldn't have any of this. So thank you to that. Well and look, thank you. Of course, to the community and thank you both for sharing with our community. We're always happy to be a small piece of a, you know, helping to spread the word and uh, give some voice to everything that's going on here. Thank you so much. All right, so we will be back with more coverage here from coupon cloud native con 2019 on Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

>> Commentator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux foundation, and the Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone. Live here in Austin, Texas the Cube's exclusive coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, its third year, not even third year I think it's second year and not even three years old as a community, growing like crazy. Over 4500 people here. Combined the bulk of the shows it's double than it was before. I'm John Ferrier, co-founder of SiliconANGLE. Stu Miniman, analysts here. Next is Gabe Monroy who was lead p.m. product manager for containers for Microsoft Azure, Gabe welcome to the Cube. >> Thanks, glad to be here. Big fan of the show. >> Great to have you on. I mean obviously container madness we've gotten past that now it's Kubernetes madness which really means that the evolution of the industry is really starting to get some clear lines of sight as a straight and narrow if you will people starting to see a path towards scale, developer acceleration, more developers coming in than ever before, this cloud native world. Microsoft's doing pretty well with the cloud right now. Numbers are great, hiring a bunch of people, give us a quick update big news what's going on? >> Yeah so you know a lot of things going on. I'm just excited to be here, I think for me, I'm new to Microsoft right. I came here about seven months ago by way of a Dais acquisition and I like to think of myself as kind of representing part of this new Microsoft trend. My career was built on open source. I started a company called Dais and we were focused on really Kubernetes based solutions and here at Microsoft I'm really doing a lot of the same thing but with Microsoft's Cloud as sort of the vehicle that we're trying to attract developers to. >> What news do you guys have here, some services? >> Yeah so we got a bunch of things, we're talking about so the first is something I'm especially excited about. So this is the virtual kubelet. Now, tell a little bit of story here, I think it's actually kind of fascinating, so back in July we launched this thing called Azure Container Instances and what ACI was first of its kind service containers in the cloud. Just run a container, runs in the cloud. It's micro build and it is invisible infrastructure, so part of the definition of serverless there. As part of that we want to make it clear that if you were going to do complex things with these containers you really need an orchestrator so we released this thing called the ACI Connector for Kubernetes along with it. And we were excited to see people just were so drawn its idea of serverless Kubernetes, Kubernetes that you know didn't have any VMs associated with it and folks at hyper.sh, who have a similar service container offering, they took our code base and forked it and did a version of theirs and you know Brent and I were thinking together when we were like "oh man there's something here, we should explore this" and so we got some engineers together, we put a lot of work together and we announced now, this in conjunction with hyper and others, this virtual kubelet that bridges the world of Kubernetes with the world of these new serverless container runtimes like ACI. >> Okay, can you explain that a little bit. >> Sure. >> People have been coming in saying wait does serverless replace, how does it work, is Kubernetes underneath still? >> Yeah so I think the best place to start is the definition of serverless and I think serverless is really the conflation of three things: it's invisible infrastructure, it is micro billing, and it is an event based programming model. It's sort of the classical definition right. Now what we did with ACI and serverless containers is we took that last one, the event based programming model, and we said look you don't need to do that. If you want to write a container, anything that runs in that container can work, not just functions and so that is I think a really important distinction that I believe it's really the best of serverless is you know that micro billing and invisible infrastructure. >> Well that's built in isn't it? >> Correct yeah. >> What are the biggest challenges of serverless because first of all its [Inaudible 00:03:58] in the mind of a developer who doesn't want to deal with plumbing. >> Yes. >> Meaning networking plumbing, storage, and a lot of the details around configurating, just program away, be creative, spend their time building. >> Yes. >> What is the big differences between that? What are the issues and challenges that service has for people adopting it or is it frictionless at this point? >> Well you know as far I mean it depends on what you're talking about right. So I think you know for functions you know it's very simple to you know get a function service and add your functions and deploy functions and start chaining those together and people are seeing rapid adoption and that's progressing nicely but there's also a contingent of folks who are represented here at the show who are really interested in containers as the primitive and not functions right. Containers are inclusive of lots of things, functions being one of them, betting on containers as like the compute artifact is actually a lot more flexible and solves a lot more use cases. So we're making sure that we can streamline ease of use for that while also bringing the benefits of serverless, really the way I think of this is marrying our AKS, our Managed Kubernetes Service with ACI, our you know serverless containers so you can get to a place where you can have a Kubernetes environment that has no VMs associated with it like literally zero VMs, you'd scale the thing down to zero and when you want to run a pod or container you just pay for a few seconds of time and then you kill it and you stop paying for it right. >> Alright so talk about customers. >> Yep. >> What's the customer experience you guys are going after, did you have any beta customers, who's adopting your approach, and can highlight some examples of some really cool and you don't have to name names or you can, anecdotal data will be good. >> Yeah well you know I think on the blog post announcement blog post page we have a really great video of Siemens Health and Years, I believe is the name, but basically a health care company that is looking, that is using Kubernetes on Azure, AKS specifically, to disrupt the health care market and to benefit real people and you know to me I think it's important that we remember that we're deep in this technology right but at the end of the day this is about helping developers who are in turn helping real world people and I think that video is a good example of that. >> An what was there impact, speed? Speed of developers? >> Yeah, I mean I think it's really the main thing is agility right, people want to move faster right and so that's the main benefit that we hear. I think cost is obviously a concern for folks but I think in practice the people cost of operating some of these systems is tends to be a lot higher than the infrastructure costs when you stack them up, so people are willing to pay a little bit of a premium to make it easier on people and we see that over and over again. >> Yeah Gabe, want you to speak to kind of the speed of company the size of Microsoft. So you know the Dais acquisition of course was already focused on Kubernetes before inside of Microsoft, see I mean big cloud companies moving really fast on Kubernetes. I've heard complaints from customers like "I can't get a good roadmap because it's moving so fast". >> You know I would say that was one of the biggest surprises for me joining Microsoft, is just how fast things move inside of Azure in particular. And I think it's terrific you know. I think that there's a really good focus of making sure that we're meeting customers where they are and building solutions that meet the market but also just executing and delivering and doing that with speed. One of the things that is most interesting to me is like the geographic spread. Microsoft is in so many different regions more than any other cloud. Compliance certification, we take to all that stuff really seriously and being able to do all those things, be the enterprise friendly cloud while also moving at this breakneck pace in terms of innovation, it's really spectacular to watch from the inside. >> A lot of people don't know that. When they think about Azure they think "oh they're copying Amazon" but Microsoft has tons of data centers. They've had browsers, they're all over the world, so it's not like they're foreign to region areas I mean they're everywhere. >> Microsoft is ever and not only is it not foreign but I mean you got to remember Microsoft is an enterprise software company at its core. We know developers, that is what we do and going into cloud in this way is just it's extremely natural for us. And I think that the same can't really be said for everyone who's trying to move into cloud. Like we've got history of working with developers, building platforms, we've entire division devoted to developer tooling right. >> I want to ask you about two things that comes up a lot, one is very trendy, one is kind of not so trendy but super important, one is AI. >> Yes. >> AI with software units impact disrupt storage and with virtual kubelets this is going to be changing storage game buts going to enhance the machine learning and AI capability. The other one is data warehousing or data analytics. Two very important trends, one is certainly a driver for growth and has a lot of sex appeal as the AI machine learning but all the analytics being done on cloud whether it's an IOT device, this is like a nice use case for containers and orchestration. Your comment and reaction for those two trends. >> Yeah and you know I think that AI and deep learning generally is something that we see driving a ton of demand for container orchestration. I've worked lots of customers including folks like OpenAI on there Kubernetes infrastructure running on a Azure today. Something that Elon Musk actually proudly mention, that was a good moment for the containers (chuckling) >> Get a free Tesla. Brokerage some Teslas and get that new one, goes from 0 to 100 and 4.5 seconds. >> Right yeah. >> So you got a good customer, OpenAI, what was the impact of them? What was the big? >> Well you know this is ultimately about empowering people, in this case they happen to be data scientists, to get their job done in a way where I mean I look at it has we're doing our jobs in the infrastructure space if the infrastructure disappears. The more conceptual overhead we're bringing to developers that means we're not doing our job. >> So question then specifically is deep learning in AI, is it enhanced by containers and Kubernetes? >> Absolutely. >> What order of magnitude? >> I don't know but in order of magnitude in enhancement I would argue. >> Just underlying that the really important piece is we're talking about data here >> Yes. >> and one of the things we've been kind of trying to tackle the last couple years of containers is you know storage and that's carried over to Kubernetes, how's Microsoft involved? What's you're you know prognosis as to where we go with cloud native storage? >> Yeah that's a fascinating question and I actually, so back in the early days when I was still contributing to Docker, I was one of the largest external contributors to the Docker Project earlier in my career. I actually wrote some of the storage stuff and so I've been going around Dockers inception 2013 saying don't run databases in containers. It's not cause you can't, right, you can, but just because you can doesn't mean you should (chuckling) >> Exactly. >> and I think that you know as somebody who has worked in my career as on the operation side things like an SLA mean a lot and so this leads me to another one of our announcements at the show which is the Open Service Broker for Azure. Now what we've done, thanks to the Cloud Foundry Foundation who basically took the service broker concept and spun it out, we now are able to take the world of Kubernetes and bridge it to the world of Azure services, data services being sort of some of the most interesting. Now the demo that I like to show this is WordPress which by the way sounds silly but WordPress powers tons of the web today still. WordPress is a PHP application and a MySQL database. Well if you're going to run WordPress at scale you're going to want to run that MySQL in a container? Probably not, you're probably going to want to use something like Azure database for MySQL which comes with an SLA, backup/restore, DR, ops team by Microsoft to manage the whole thing right. So but then the question is well I want to use Kubernetes right so how do I do that right, well with the Open Service Broker for Azure we actually shipped a helm chart. We can helm install Azure WordPress and it will install in Kubernetes the same way you would a container based system and behind the scenes it uses the broker to go spin up a Postgres, sorry a MySQL and dynamically attach it. Now the coolest thing to me about this yeah is the agility but I think that one of the underrated features is the security. The developer who does that doesn't ever touch credentials, the passwords are automatically generated and automatically injected into the application so you get to do things with rotations without ever touching the app. >> So we're at publisher we use WordPress, we'd love, will this help us with scale if we did Azure? >> Absolutely. After this is over we'll go set it up. (laughing) >> I love WordPress but when it breaks down well this is the whole point of where auto scaling shows a little bit of its capabilities in the world is that, PHP does you'd like to have more instances >> Yeah. >> that would be a use case. Okay Redshift in Amazon wasn't talking about much at re:Invent last week. We don't hear a lot of talk around the data warehouse which is a super important way to think about collecting data in cloud and is that going to be an enhanced feature because people want to do analytics. There's a huge analytics audience out there, they're moving off of tera-data. They're doing you guys have a lot of analytics at Microsoft. They might have moved from Hadoop or Hive or somewhere else so there's a lot of analytics workloads that would be prime or at least potentially prime for Kubernetes. >> Yeah I think >> Or is that not fully integrated. >> No I think it's interesting, I mean for us we look at, I personally think using something like the service broker, Open Service Broker API to bridge to something like a data lake or some of these other Azure hosted services is probably the better way of doing that because if you're going to run it on containers, these massive data warehouses, yes you can do it, but the operational burden is high, >> So your point about the >> its really high. >> database earlier. >> Yeah. Same general point there. Now can you do it? Do we see people doing it? Absolutely right. >> Yeah, they do you things sometimes that they shouldn't be doing. >> Yeah and of course back to the deep learning example those are typically big large training models that have similar characteristics. >> Alright as a newbie inside Azure, not new to the industry and the community, >> Yep. >> share some color. What's it like in there? Obviously a number two to Amazon, you guys have great geography presence, you're adding more and more services every day at Azure, what's the vibe, what's the mojo like over there, and share some inside baseball. >> Yeah I got to say so really I'm just saying it's a really exciting place to work. Things are moving so fast, we're growing so fast, customers really want what we're building. Honestly day to day I'm not spending a lot of time looking out I'm spending a lot of time dealing with enterprises who want to use our cloud products. >> And one of the top things that you have on your p.m. list that are the top stack ranked features people want? >> I think a lot of this comes down, in general I think this whole space is approaching a level of enterprise friendliness and enterprise hardening where we want to start adding governance, and adding security, and adding role based access controls across the board and really making this palatable to high trust environment. So I think a lot that's a lot of our focus. >> Stability, ease of use. >> Stability, ease of use are always there. I think the enterprise hardening and things like v-net support for all of our services, v-net service endpoints, those are some things that are high on the list. >> Gabe Monroy, lead product manager for containers at Microsoft Azure Cloud. Great to have you on and love to talk more about geographies and moving apps around the network and multi-cloud but another time, thanks for the time. >> Another time. >> It's the Cube live coverage I'm John Ferrier co-founder of [Inaudible 00:15:21]. Stu Miniman with Wikibon, back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here live in Austin, Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media with my co-host Stu Miniman, Next is Nigel Poulten, who's the author of the Kubernetes book, also container guru, trainer, been in the business for a long time in the community. Great to have you on for our intro. >> Thank you >> Stu, keynote, let's get down to it. What was the big highlights? >> Yeah, well, first of all John, we've officially entered KubeCon Days here. So CloudNativeCon was yesterday. We've got two more days of KubeCon. Kelsey Hightower, you know, we had him on theCUBE yesterday. Phenomenal speaker, everybody's looking forward to him. Lines to talk to him. Made sure that there was a standing ovation before and after his. Very demo heavy. I mean, you know, this group loves it. There were a lot of, you know, great pithy lines. Arguments over, you know, which is the best language, which is the best way to do things? Knocking on things like YAML. So, it was definitely a fun, geeky discussion. I'm a big Game of Thrones fan. So I loved to see season seven delivered on Kubernetes. >> What was the summary of the keynote? What was the take? >> So I think from my perspective, the summary was Kubernetes is boring. Which translates to us generally, as in it's maturing. It's something that you might want to be able to trust in your production environment, if you're an enterprise. I mean, look, as a technology guy we always think we like to know the details, the weeds. And we like to play with YAML and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, business is down and developers tend not to want to. They want a smooth pipeline. And that's boring, and so boring is good. >> Yeah, and I do want to poke at it a little bit, Nigel, I definitely want your opinion on this, because there are certain technologies we say, "Oh right, it's reached that boring phase", which means it's kind of steady state. Kubernetes is not like One Dot Nine. Coming into the show it was like, how complex it is. Oh my God, there's all these things above and below. Yin gave a really nice keynote showing kind of a layer cake there. >> Yeah. >> I think maybe the Kubernetes layer might be, it's stable enough and used, and people can use it. But this ecosystem by no means is it boring. >> No >> And there's lots of things to make out. What are you seeing? >> Totally, and it's that definition of boring, really. So I would say boring would translate into usable. But you're right, in no way is it boring in any sense. In fact, it's exciting and it's dangerous as well. >> Yeah, and ... >> So I'll give you an example, right. So Kubernetes is massively successful. I think we all grock that at the moment, okay. But it's almost potentially going to be a victim of it's own success. It's always at one of the many summits that was going on before KubeCon and CloudNativeCon started, and it was about networking and there was a bunch of guys here from big carriers and they really want to take this simple networking model that Kubernetes currently has and make it fit their needs, which would make it really complex, dare I say, almost OpenStack Neutron. (laughing) And I think there's so many people here at this conference right now that want to take Kubernetes and use it for their own purposes. And as successful as it is, and as much uptake as it's got, there is a potential danger there, I think, that it explodes out of control, and I don't want to knock OpenStack, but becomes difficult and not what we want it to be, and that's dangerous for them. >> Nigel, you bring up a great point here, because something we've been looking at is every time we abstract or make this new design model, it's "Oh well". We want to make sure the developer doesn't have to worry about that infrastructure. Clayton from Red Hat, we had him on theCUBE, and he talked about it in the keynote, boring means when I write my code I don't have to think about the infrastructure, but networking and storage. Networking some of the basis pieces are done but there's a lot of activity in that space, and storage, we're still arguing over what Container Native Storage should be, what CloudNative storage should be. So it's still to my definition, it's not boring. That's the direction, and I like it. Kind of was where we talked about invisible infrastructure. >> Yeah >> What do you see? You've got a heavy background on that side too. >> So I think I quite like this space that networking is at within Kubernetes. It's simple, and that works for me, right. Storage is certainly, it's still playing catch up there, and I think a lot of decisions still need to be made. The future, in my opinion, is still not clear there. But I think a lot of games have got to be played to say, now how far do we take networking, and how far do we take storage and things like that so that it, in the one sense doesn't balloon out of control, but on the other side you do want it to meet more use cases than just the very basic use cases. So, I mean, that plays back to my idea that that danger aspect of Kubernetes, it seems to have won in the orchestration space at the moment, but I think the road ahead, there still loads of potholes, and there's tight bends, and there's cliff edges and things that we still could fall off, and that's exciting. >> Nigel, your dangerous comment reminds me of some of the early days of V-M-ware. >> Nigel: Right >> You know, people that would get in there, they'd do some really cool things, they'd write it up, share it with the community. And absolutely, it feels like that, almost even bigger. >> Yeah, like the top layer that interfaces with the developers and things like that, that's getting pretty stable. But underneath, I mean, that is a happening place underneath right now, and I imagine it's going to be a happening place for quite a few years. >> What about service meshes and also pluggable architectures? Because that seems to be the answer to the dangerous question. Oh don't worry about it, carriers and what not. You can just build pluggable architectures, no one's going to get hurt. >> Nigel: Yeah >> Not ready for prime time? What's your thoughts? >> So I think service mesh is almost certainly in my opinion, the hot topic of the conference so far. I like this idea of it getting born and stuff, and that's good for the project. But if there's one take away, if it's something that you're not quite clued upon at the moment, go away and look into service mesh. I've got to do a lot of that myself, to be perfectly honest. But this whole idea of running like sidecar containers and what have you, inside of the pods, alongside your application to look at your ingress traffic, your incoming traffic, your outgoing traffic. It's all cool and it can add so much functionality and make it so much more usable to a lot of users. But at the same time there's not ... I don't know, right, look I'm a little bit old fashioned. I remember the days of deploying agents on servers. And we would have server bills that had agent upon agent upon agent. And we have this backlash in the industry of like, you're not bringing your product in vendor x, y or z, okay. If it deploys an agent, we're going fully agentless here. We're sick of managing all these different agents in our stack, and I wonder again, playing to the danger topic here, that like, are we going to end up having loads of these sidecar containers in our pods that are affectively the modern day agents that we then have to manage, and consume resources >> Explain the sidecar generation, it's important. Take a minute to explain the dynamic because containerization has been around for awhile, Google and everyone else knows that. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> But Docker really put it on the map. Now the commoditization of containers with Kubernetes. What's this sidecar thing about? >> Nigel: Okay >> Quick, take a minute to explain to the folks. >> Right, so in the Kubernetes world I guess the atomic unit of deployment, the equivalent of a V-M from the V-M World space would be the pod, which is effectively a container, right? But within that pod you run your application container. And I think for most people you run one container inside of that pod, it's your application, right? What we're starting to see now is, and Kubernetes has always had this ability to run multiple containers inside of a pod. Most people don't do it. And it seems that a lot of the external projects, and a lot of the third party vendors are starting to pick up on this and say, "Alright, well let's run another container "Inside of that pod". It's not your actual application and we call it a sidecar container. And it adds functionality and what have you, but is also potentially eats through resources, it makes your deployments maybe more complicated. I mean it's always a trade off, isn't it? >> Yeah >> You get additional functionality but it's never for free. >> Yeah it's overhead. Alright, talk about the customer guys. What we saw in keynote, we saw HBO on stage. How are customers using Kubernetes? Because I'm trying to put my finger on it. I love Orchestrate, I know what that does, and I understand the benefits, but how are actually people using it today? >> So I think it's a little bit like the whole container thing, right? The early adopters of the Netflix's and the HBOs and the people like that that have got large engineering teams, that have a lot of developers on staff, they're really just comfortable going and taking these new technologies, and rolling them themselves, and they've got this appetite for danger, again within their organization almost. Their risk taking organizations, right. They're all over the containers and the Kubernetes. The more traditional enterprises I think are still kicking the tires. They're still throwing out the occasional new project within the organization and saying, "Let's test the waters with this new feature "That we want to add to our main product", or "We've got something new, "Let's try containers and Kubernetes." They're certain, at least the ones that I speak to, certainly not at the phase where they're taking their legacy apps. >> HBO was using it for like traffic, identifying ingress, you mentioned that earlier, I mean basic stuff. Not a lot of heavy lifting, or is it? >> Well, I think the HBO, I mean ... How much they ran the season seven of Game of Thrones on Kubernetes. I mean, I'm sure there was some non-Kubernetes stuff in there as well, but it seemed like from the presentation pretty much, well, a lot of that stuff was running containers and Kubernetes, and lets be fair, when it comes to HBO, Game of Thrones is like their, it's their killer product at the end of the day, isn't it? And so they've taken a risk there with that. >> Yeah >> But again you know HBO, a rare... >> There's a lot of online viewers, by the way on that too. >> Yeah. >> With HBO Go. >> Oh, an insane number! But I would say compared to a traditional enterprise they're a risk taking organization. They live in the Cloud. They like living on the edge. They're willing to take risks with new technologies to push the product forward. >> Alright, so I want to get your guys' thoughts on a tweet I saw out there. "Think of Kubernetes as the colonel "For modern distributed systems. "It's not about zero ops, it's about op power tools "to unlock developer productivity." Craig McLuckie from Heptio mentioned that on stage. Really kind of rallying around Kubernetes. Thoughts on that quote? What does that mean? >> So I mean John, you know there was for a while people saying, "How do we deprecate? "Or even go to kind of noOps?" Absolutely, many of the keynotes talked about who's deploying them and who's running them. We're not talking about eliminating ops. Even when I can have a voice assistant help roll things out, they're still absolutely a major piece of who needs to run this, but the right things to the right part of the organization. >> Yeah, I think instead of using the word colonel maybe use the word Linux, you know. Looking at Kubernetes as the Linux of the Cloud, and that's not my term, I've heard other people say it. But it's open source for a start like Linux is, it's got a great thriving community of people contributing to it. You can fork it, you can do what ever you want with it, but if you're going to deploy a CloudNative application right now, then Kubernetes is that substrate. You've just got to look at what came out of re:Invent. So A-W-S is now offering a native Kubernetes hosted service, obviously Google does it, Azure does it with Microsoft. They're all picking up on this realizing that people deploying CloudNative apps, they're going to be deploying it on Kubernetes. >> Thoughts about Red Hat. I just saw Gabe Monroy, the keynote, Stu. Red Hat's contribution to hardening Kubernetes cannot be overstated. C-C OpenShift And we had Bryan Gracie on yesterday. I mean OpenShift, what a bet. Microsoft betting heavily on Kubernetes. Google obviously sees this as an opportunity. Multi-Cloud fantasies out there somewhere, but that's what customers are kind of asking for, not yet in tangible product, but this is interesting. You've got Red Hat, the king of the enterprise, OpenSource. >> Nigel: Absolutely, yeah. >> No debate about that. Microsoft and Google, old guard with Microsoft and then new guard in Google. Really if they don't throw a line at the main Cloud trend with Kubernetes, they could be left in the dust. So I see a lot of things at play. How is the Red Hat and the Kubernetes investment paying off? How do you guys see that playing out? Good strategic move, headroom to it? What comments and caller commentary on that? >> Well I think if you compare Red Hat to Microsoft, if you don't mind me doing that, Microsoft has a cash cow in Windows in the past and I think it quickly realized that the cash cow was not going to live forever, and they invested heavily in Azure. Red Hat live a lot, I guess as well, off support contracts and things like that, the Red Hat enterprise Linux. How long of a tail that has, I'm not sure. So certainly they're doing at least, they're looking in the right direction at least by investing heavily in Kubernetes. If they want to go in and be the enterprise's trusted Kubernetes partner, I think they've got a great story. They've contributed a ton to it. They're already in the door at most enterprises, and I think you couple those two things together if the enterprise is going to adopt Kubernetes at some point. I'm not saying they've go the best story, but they've got a pretty decent story. >> Alright, in the last minute I want to ask both you guys this question because it's been kind of on my mind, I've been thinking about it. Maybe I'm overstretching here but three day conference, one day to CloudNative, two days to Kubernetes, KubeCon. Why? More important? Growing community? CloudNative I think, would be probably stronger sessions. Is it because there's more emphasis on the Kubernetes? >> Kubernetes is the core, Kubernetes is what started the C-N-C-F. >> John: Yeah >> All the other projects really build off to it. I think it's pretty... >> It needs more attention. >> Kubernetes, I mean, while there's ... You know I love Kelsey's line this morning. He looked out at the audience he says, "I think everyone that's running Kubernetes "In the globe is here." So, there's jokes about how many people are actually running in production >> Yeah, they're probably here. >> So look, there's still so many people that are getting the Kubernetes 1-0-1. The whole CloudNative, all of these other projects are all building off of it. I think it's really straight forward on there. We even heard, do we call it the C-N-C-F? Do we rename it to something that's a little more Kubernetes focused? Because CloudNative gets talked about some, there's service mesh, absolutely Nigel, it was the buzz coming into the show. I hear those sessions are overflowing here. We didn't even get to talk about, there's like another alternative to Istio that's there. >> And Lou Tucker, by the way, affirmed that same thread yesterday about the service mesh. Nigel, final word for you on this segment. How big order of magnitude and important is Kubernetes? I mean given you've seen, talk about agent-ism in the old days, and all the ways that have come, that's been kind of incremental proving balls been moved down the field here and there. And some big chunk yardage, if you will, use this football analogy. How big, because I've seen Kubernetes just go from here to here. >> Yeah >> Really move the need along the community, it's galvanized. How important is Kubernetes, from an order of magnitude, when we look back a few years from now, what are we going to be saying? "Hey, remember KubeCon in 2017?" How important is Kubernetes? >> Well, can I say I think it's really early days, okay? And I like the analogy that it is the Linux of the Cloud or of CloudNative, okay? But I think there's danger in that as well because the world is changing so fast now. I mean Linux has lived for a very long time, okay. Will Kubernetes live that long or will it be replaced by something else? It probably will be, but I do feel these are early days, and I think it has got a long stretch ahead. A long stretch as in like... >> John: Yeah. >> Good four or five years. And within two to three years, you know, just about every organization in my opinion is going to have some Kubernetes in it. >> And the beginning signs of maturity's coming. Stack Wars too, all the vendors really trying to figure out, strategically it's like a 3-D chess match right now. Open source is kind of like arbiter of this, really good stuff. I think it's going to be super important. Thanks for the commentary. kicking off day two of Cube exclusive coverage here at KubeCon. CloudNativeCon was yesterday. Two days of KubeCon. We'll be back with more live coverage. From theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman and Nigel Poulten after this short break. (light techno music)