>> Live, from San Francisco, it's theCube covering DockerCon 18, brought to you by Docker, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCube, we are live at DockerCon 2018, in San Francisco, on a beautiful day. Lisa Martin with John Troyer. We're very pleased to welcome back to theCube distinguished alumni Avinash Lakshman, the CEO and founder of Hedvig. Welcome back. >> Thank you, great to be here. >> So, talk to us about Hedvig, what's new, what are you guys doing, what's exciting? >> Oh, a lot of things, I mean, since the last time we spoke here, I think, some of the improvements have been made in the platform as been pretty significant, in fact we are executing on the vision we had from day one, which is to be the infrastructure for both primary and secondary storage, and I think we are delivering on that promise. And doing so pretty efficiently. >> Talk to us about the case for consolidating primary and secondary workloads on one platform. >> So, everybody understands how capics can be reduced, right, but I think the key to understanding how one can reduce their operation overhead, is going to become very important, and the key to that is to, if you look at how enterprises have evolved, there's always been a vendor they talk to for their SAM needs, a different kind of vendor for their NAS, they're all trying to figure out what their object strategy ought to be, and now there's a lot of disruption happening in the secondary market, we always felt like, what if you go to one platform, on which you can consolidate block, file, and object, and also be the backup target in most of the secondary use cases. Then, all you got to do is to train your folks, on one platform, and just use it for different workloads by changing either policy or adverse queue. Makes your operational overhead very streamlined and very efficient. >> Avinash, sometimes the infrastructure people joke about containers, and they say, well, you know the developers here, they just go, well the storage just exists, doesn't it, I just call, I do a mount point, and it just works, in the cloud, right? And so, but Hedvig is here at DockerCon. Can you talk a little bit about some of the relationship there, and some of the how you work with folks, these folks here at DockerCon, working in containers? >> See, anytime anything is simple to use, they always joke about it, but there's a lot of work that goes behind driving that simplicity. Like they say, you wanna keep things simple, because any fool can complicate things, you know? So, but I think you, people are looking to bring that cloud-like mentality into On Prem data centers, and I think, we are also delivering on that promise. >> To clarify, I was kind of making a joke. The infrastructure people always kind of, they roll their eyes, they say we do all this work, and the developers think it's so easy one it gets to them. >> No, I know, because all hard work is done for them. >> I mean, there's also a joke among the infrastructural community that, eh, it's just an app, that's how they flippantly brush off applications, so, it goes both ways, I suppose. >> Indeed. >> So, I always look at messaging on websites of guests and companies, and I liked what I saw. Finally, a cloud agnostic storage solution. What does that mean from Hedvig's perspective, and how does that give you that differentiation that you want? >> Good question, because, for that one needs to define what multi-cloud is. Everyone has their own definition for multi-cloud. Just the way of, a few years ago, everybody had their own definition of distributed systems, right, I mean, there was a large populace that believed that if a program runs on multiple computers, it's a distributed system. Not the way, we, I, would define it. It has to be multiple machines working together to make believe that there's only one machine behind the scenes, right? And similarly, one may want to set the stage for what multi-cloud is all about. Again, running, there is a popular school of thought, if I can run on Cloud A, and then run on Cloud B, I am multi-cloud, that's not my definition. The way I would like to define it is one fabric that can span multiple clouds, and give you the illusion that that's where there's a whole location transparency thing comes in. You believe everything is local, but it could be anywhere, you know, and that's where infrastructure becomes kind of invisible, and it's a single fabric that spans multiple cloud environments. >> So, that transparency, is that something that really kind of helps Hedvig define some of your key differentiation? >> In the cloud environment, definitely, yes, and here's why: When people typically build applications, if you program to services that are available in one particular cloud environment, tomorrow, you wanna run it on a different cloud environment, there is no API compatibility between different clouds. So you will have to rebuild your applications to a total different set of services, that another cloud vendor provides. At least, what we bring to the table is from a data management infrastructure layer, you could have one fabric, you can run your, you can now move your applications willy-nilly, because you will be programming against an API that we provide, and you don't have to worry about where you are running them. And that's what we enable. And that's done seamlessly today. >> Can you talk about how some of your customers are using Hedvig, and some of the customer use cases, in production? >> Yeah, I mean, there's quite a a few use cases, I think the popular ones are, for those who are in the primary kind of workload space, which are typically used when you to run, when you need fault tolerance across multiple sites. One of the more interesting use cases that we are now deploying in the UK is across multiple clouds and on premise, so it's kind of hybrid and multi-cloud built inside one fabric. And the reason they do it, is basically, not only consolidate their existing On Prem data centers, but also to get, to satisfy data governance laws for certain applications. This leads to a tone that I'm trying to drive and make popular, which is a declarative data sovereignty, which basic means, if you look at things in Europe, for different applications, there are different laws, and that's now becoming kind of common place. We live in a global economy, but the data governance laws are all local. So, people want certain applications and its data not to span certain geographic regions, right? How do you make that happen in a declarative way? And, you should be able to do that by just saying for this app, this volume, and there are some policies you assign to it, and that policy basically dictates what regions that data will live in, and we make it as simple as it possibly can get. >> Nice. So, the policies then drives where the data lives, and on Hedvig, if it needs to stay in Germany, that volume will stay there, and will never be anywhere else. >> Exactly, exactly, and you can even control that across different cloud windows, if you're running, say, for example, this particular customer, I'm not sure if I can mention the name, but so I'm going to err on the side of caution, they run across AWS, Azure, and On Premise. And for certain apps, they want the data to be spread across AWS and Azure, and for certain apps, they wanted data to be stored across On Prem and AWS. You wanna make it as simple as possible, make it declarative, and for those who are more systems savvy, if you look at how computer science has evolved over time, if you look at the late 90s, transactions were a big deal, everyone were trying to figure out how to program transactions into their system. But, over time, people designed run-times, where you can declaratively annotate section of your modules, to say whether it should be part of a transaction or not. And they made it that simple, and the run-time kind of takes care of that delivering those annotations that you declare. We wanna bring the same simplicity for data sovereignty. >> So we're at the fifth DockerCon, and this morning, Steve Singh said it was around 5,000, we've heard upwards of 6,000 attendees here, and I think you said at the first DockerCon, there was only about 300 people. I noticed when I walked out of the general session this morning, and I turned back around the room, it was packed, it was standing room only. I'm curious what your thoughts are about some of the things that Docker has announced, you know, they really talked about what they're enabling with enhancements to enterprise edition, with federated application management, what they're doing with Docker desktop, as really enabling three things: and I heard you kind of talk about one of them for sure, which was agility, choice, and security. From a security perspective, what are some of the things that Hedvig can enable your customers to achieve, because we hear that security is a huge issue. >> Security typically manifests itself in two ways: one is in today's systems, you have data spreading all over the place, so when the data's on the wire, you need to encrypt things on the wire so that nobody can sniff and steal data. There is also an aspect of security where data, which goes onto the sides on any media, needs to be secured, meaning it needs to be encrypted. Now, there's a whole school of people who believe that they've solved that problem by sticking in what is called self-encrypting drives, but that solves only part of the problem, and it's a hacky solution because we live in a world where, you know, BYOD was a big thing, and it's kind of BYOK, right? Bring your own keys, so we can encrypt using the keys that you bring to the table and get out of the way, right? So, if you want to achieve that, then you cannot just SCD's, you have to drive the encryption onto the media on which the data is going to reside, but that's part of the problem. The other part of the problem is: what happens to data when it's on the wire? So you want to be able to encrypt data on the wire, and at rest, so that takes care of one part of security. The other big issue is ransomware, right, and there are also application developers when they want to shown through their features, and they want to build fast and develop features very fast, they could end up corrupting data underneath. How do you protect against, you want to have a feature that even let's you protect your data from yourself, and those are all capabilities that one needs to think through. The way you typically would do that is have the capability of providing managed snapshots, where you can periodically keep taking snapshots of your data, so you can revert to any, it's kinda like Github for data, that's how we look at it. You know, when you look at Github, you put your source code in there, but nobody is working on the same source tree, you create different trees, and then you merge them in when you think the time is right. So, you wanna have different copies of your data, without having copies, and then be able to revert back to any pristine version you deem fit, if you make any mistakes at the application level, or if there are ransomware kind of issues. So, it's a multi-fold problem. So, you've got to look at things holistically and make sure that everything is kind of delivered natively through any infrastructure platform one is building. >> So, Avinash, you are, frankly, you've had a big impact, on cloud computing, you were one of the co-inventors of DynamoDB, at Amazon. >> Dynamo. >> Dynamo, and you were then at Facebook Cassandra, and you actually said the 10th anniversary of Cassandra. >> This is, I didn't even realize, I think it's either this month or next month. >> Nice, nice. Huge impact, right? Whole ecosystems have been built up. So, you have a sense of where the problems are. Now, Hedvig, a few years old now, you know, what are trying to do now with Hedvig, and where would you like to take it? You're in the middle of a very hot market, the data services market, this kind of secondary storage market, is super hot. So, I would just love to hear what your dreams are, where you're trying to take Hedvig, and how did you see that this was a hot place, and where are you going with it? >> Dreams are a difficult question to answer, but at least we know one thing: what we do know, is that we are onto something big, and this a problem that needs solving, and it needs solving from the ground up, and it needs solving in a very different way. I always believed that true innovation comes from people from the outside. I'm not a storage guy, I never was. But, I believe that makes me better suited to go after this problem because I don't have any of the baggage that people typically tend to have. You can't disrupt yourself, right? We believe we are onto something big, and so we are just heads down trying to deliver on that. I don't know where it could go, I'll leave it to destiny, but I think we're onto something big, and hopefully we will reap the benefits of what we are doing. >> Well, Avinash, thanks so much for coming by theCube again and sharing with us what's going on at Hedvig. It sounds like some exciting times ahead, and we wish you the best of luck. >> Thank you, really appreciate it. >> We want to thank you for watching theCube. For John Troyer, I'm Lisa Martin, and we are live from DockerCon 2018 in San Francisco. Thanks for watching, guys. (electronic music hit)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin, in San Francisco, with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, Ed Hsu, the V.P. of Product and Product Marketing at Mesosphere. Great to have you on, Ed. >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. >> So, Mesosphere. Tell us about you guys, what do you do? Why are you at DockerCon? >> Yeah. So, Mesosphere is a hybrid cloud software platform. We basically enable you to very easily adopt all types of new cloud-native technologies like Docker, Kubernetes, Spark, all the things that you think about to build these world changing applications. We automate that for you to run on hybrid cloud infrastructures. >> Nice. So, maybe you could break it down a little bit more. I know people can sometimes get confused. Mesosphere the company, Mesosphere the project, DC/OS the product, and then Kubernetes, and we're here at DockerCon, so maybe untangle some of those things a little bit. >> Sure. Maybe I'll go in chronological order. So Apache Mesos was actually created way back, I think around 2010 as a project to figure out if you had to rebuild Google's proprietary architecture for hyper-scale computing, what might that look like? So that became this project called Apache Mesos. Later on, at companies like Twitter, Airbnb, it started being used to solve some real challenges around scale-ability and performance. Arguably, without Mesos as a technology, I don't think Twitter would probably exist today because Twitter used to crash a lot. You guys remember that. You got the fail whale picture and all that stuff. Apparently, Justin Bieber used to crash Twitter, right? And Mesos became part of the solution. Now, you fast forward a few years later, containerization really caught on, right? And then Docker became a game changer in terms of making sure people start using and adopting container technologies, really popularize containerization, and of course, Kubernetes later came along as a way to orchestrate the operations of these containers. Now, where Mesosphere fits in is our platform is actually below a container-orchestrator, right so, Kubernetes is actually the fifth container-orchestrator to run on Mesos. There's earlier ones like Netflix, I think Twitter themselves. There's different types of container orchestration tools, and Kubernetes became the most recent and frankly most popular container-orchestration tool, and Mesosphere enables customers to really get one turn-key installation and operations of that technology. >> You mentioned Netflix, and I'm thinking, it powers a lot of our lives. But thinking about IoT data-driven applications like that, how does Mesosphere help power IoT and those data-driven applications? >> So, any IoT application probably needs at least three major sets of capabilities. The first is, you have to ingest tons of data. If you're a connected car or a home appliance company, there's a lot of data coming in from all these internet-connected devices. You need a way to ingest all that data without losing any of it and making sure you can be responsible. You also want to be able to analyze that data. So tools like Spark and other things become very important. You also need to be able to host an application or service, and Kubernetes becoming the most popular way to serve these applications. The last and by far, I think, most important piece for hybrid-cloud or for, excuse me, for IoT use cases, is the concept of hybrid-cloud and edge computing. At Mesosphere, we have many connected car companies that are doing connected car or self-driving car projects are actually working with us. And the reason for this is, we provide consistency for running containers like with Kubernetes or data services like Spark and Kafka on a really elastic infrastructure that can be on a data center, on AWS, on Google, or beneath a cell tower or even a cruise ship. Those are all actual use cases. We provide a consistent operating model for operators to just install and run all of this stuff. >> Super nice. I love in 2018 we're past some of the press conversation around who's gonna win or there's only gonna be one way of doing one stack that's gonna win, and Kubernetes versus whatever, and that was a conversation a few years ago. What I love about 2018 is people are in production. And live and time-to-value are very quick and very powerful and very deep and enlightens big data apps. Huge footprint apps as well. So, can you talk a little bit about some of your customers and also, in terms of the hybrid cloud. Are we seeing, are people on Pram? Are you seeing a lot of multi-cloud uses? Do apps span on Pram and clouds? What are some of the use cases and patterns that you see? >> Yeah. So, I think, maybe I'll start with the one I find is most interesting which is Royal Caribbean. If I were to ask you what is the largest computing cluster in the world by geography, you probably wouldn't say Royal Caribbean. So I haven't been on a cruise in a while, but apparently... I remember back in the day when I was a child, when I went on a cruise, you get a daily print-out of today's activities, and if you wanna go upgrade to a meal plan or do a tour or scuba diving, you go line up somewhere, and then you register for it, and if there's enough inventory, you get to do it. And so Royal Caribbean is actually trying to move all of this into a mobile app experience where based on your preferences, based on your history, based on what's available, they'll push certain campaigns to get you to "John, you really gotta try this scuba diving because we've got excess inventory, and we know you have a history of wanting to do surfing excursion" and so forth. So what Royal Caribbean has done is create an infrastructure where they're doing Test and Dev on campaigns and things like that on AWS. They actually do a lot of analytics on Pram in their own data center, and then when a ship is out at sea, serving those mobile applications from on Pram cloud-computing environment. All of this on Mesosphere's DC/OS. And what this means is that the data for interacting with passengers and the campaigns that are available, the management of the inventory, all that data, when the ship is in dock, flies from a data center, through a satellite, through Kafka into the ship. When the ship goes out to sea, all the internet connection is used for, people Skyping with grandma and grandpa and all that stuff, so the ship can actually, from an edge computing standpoint, provide all the resources it needs for these personalized interaction commission. >> That's a big example, Royal Caribbean. It was a very interesting use case, and I know you mentioned Netflix, Verizon. I think I saw a Verizon customer video on your website. When you're talking with companies of either those sizes or Royal Caribbean that's been around for a long time versus a cloud-native like Netflix, what are some of the common data center modernization concerns that you're hearing consistently across company sizes and maybe even consistently across industries? >> Sure. I think that's a great point. I think some of the early, early adopters, like Netflix, Twitter, they have their own way of building out their hyper-scale infrastructures. And so we work very closely with them to address their needs. What we're starting to see as the technology becomes mainstream... There are a lot of common challenges that these mainstream enterprises are either not experienced with, not staffed for, or just don't have the budget to blow a lot on these types of projects. And so, what becomes a key concern is a lot of companies today recognize containerization is interesting, it's important. It has the potential to deliver cost savings, and they recognize they have to move to a Dev/Ops model to deliver code very quickly. But then they also realize that we're starting to live in an always connected economy where you can't just sell a product and not expect to hear from the customer until they have a problem with it. You wanna interact with them, you wanna use that data to help improve the experience for the customer. How do you manage all this information? So the whole concept of data engineering, data operations, and data science becomes really a key factor for many enterprises. And for a lot of them, they just don't have the resources to really address it. Now, there are many different companies that provide individual point solutions for those technologies, but how do you bring it all together in a multi-tenet way, right? How do you make sure if you have one team that's using one version of Spark and another team using a different version of Spark that they can actually share infrastructure? And that's where Mesosphere's uniqueness has really come front and center. We basically pull these data services the way VMware pulled the traditional model basic applications. So the cost saving you saw from server consolidation, we're doing from cluster consolidation and dramatically reducing costs while automating operations at the same time. >> I'd like to follow up on that a little bit. I think ever since the launch of DC/OS a few years back, big data was a differentiator for Mesosphere. And, again, another term that's been through it's own hype cycle, right? But it's real today. Can you maybe go a little deeper with the consolidation piece? How are Mesosphere admins interacting with data scientists or even on the container side and the infrastructure side, what do you have to do differently to make sure the memory footprints and all the various big data platforms are able to be supported? >> Yeah. So I think big data 1.0, let's call it, was really a batch operating model. Wait 'til the data comes in at the end of the quarter, make some recommendations on how the business can improve the next quarter. You guys have all seen reports. I think Gardner talked about one where 80% of due projects have failed. And the reason for this is that it was hard to justify the benefit right up front. The cost and the complexity of rolling out these projects was very prohibitive. Now, what Mesosphere brings is the ability to adopt many different types of these next generation data technologies. Spark, Cassandra distributed database, Kafka message queue, TensorFlow, Elasticsearch, these are all technologies that have become increasingly popular, but the challenge for most enterprises is it's hard to have a whole team just dedicated to learning Kafka and another one on Spark and another one on Cassandra. What if your competitors hire them away? And how do you run all these different technologies that are clustered systems that require a lot of infrastructure? They're not designed to run together and pull together efficiently. That's what Mesosphere really brings to these technologies. One is the ability to automate all these technologies, so instead of getting a whole team to figure out how to run stuff, it's literally one click installation, or a single command on the DC/OS command console. And then two being able to run all these different types of data services in a highly pulled way so that you don't have different clusters that are turning into snowflakes that cannot be reused by other teams. This gives you dramatic changes in how people operate. If you were a big data team at a major bank and somebody said "I wanna do transactions on your infrastructure," you would probably say "No, stay out of my infrastructure because I want to make sure I have the resources to do analytics," and the same would be true for the people who are actually doing the real-time transaction-processing with customers. What if I told you I can give you a way to do application-aware automations so that these services can be automated very easily? And two, these resources can share an infrastructure while maintaining resource guarantees. Now, all of a sudden, the individual functional leads or business unit leads would go "Okay, I'm okay with sharing resources with these other BU's, especially if it gives me the benefit over time of helping different BU's cross-pollinate information." >> A whole different way of interacting with big data, right? And actually making it useful. >> Maybe forcing collaboration. I wish we had more time, but we wanna thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE, telling us what's new at Mesosphere. Sounds like never a dull moment. >> Oh, absolutely. Thank you very much. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I am Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our last guest. (techno music)

>> Live, from San Francisco, it's The Cube! Covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to The Cube. We are live at DockerCon 2018 on a beautiful day in San Francisco. We're glad you're not playing hooky though if you're in the city because it's important to be here watching John Troyer and myself, Lisa Martin, talk to some awesome, inspiring guests. We're excited to welcome two Docker captains, that's right, to The Cube. We've got Nirmal Mehta, you are the chief technologist of Booz Allen. Welcome back to The Cube. And, we've got Bret Fisher, the author of Docker Mastery. Both of you, Docker captains. Can't wait to dig into that. But you're both speakers here at the fifth annual DockerCon. So Bret, let's talk, you just came off the stage basically. So, thank you for carving out some time for us. Talk to us about your session. What did you talk about? What was some of the interaction with the attendees? >> Well the focus is on Docker Swarm and I'm a assist admin at heart so I focus on ops more than developer but I spend my life helping developers get their stuff into production. And so, that talk centers around the challenges of going in and doing real work that's for a business with containers and how do you get what seems like an incredible amount of new stuff into production all at the same time on a container ecosystem. So, kind of helping them build the tools they need, and what we call a stack, a stack of tools, that ultimately create a full production solution. >> What were some of the commentary you heard from attendees in terms of... Were these mostly community members, were there users of container technology, what was sort of the dynamic like? >> Well you have, there's all sorts of dynamics, right? I mean you have startups, I think I took a survey in the room because it was packed and like 20% of the people in the room about were a solo DevOps admin. So they were the only person responsible for their infrastructure and their needs are way different than a team that has 20 or 30 people all serving that responsibility. So, the talk was a little bit about how do they handle their job and do this stuff. You know, all this latest technology without being overwhelmed and, then, how does it grow in complexity to a larger team and how do they sustain that. So, yeah. >> Bret, it's nice that the technology is mature enough now that people are in production, but what are some of the barriers that people hit when they try to go into production the first time? >> Yeah, great question. I think the biggest barrier is trying to do too much new at the same time. And, I don't know why we keep relearning this lesson in IT, right? We've had that problem for decades of projects being over cost, over budget, over timed, and I think with so much exciting new stuff in containers it's susceptible to that level of, we need all these new things, but you actually don't, right? You can actually get by with very small amounts of change, incrementally. So, we try to teach that pattern of growing over time, and, yeah. >> You mentioned like the one person team versus the multi-person team kind of DevOps organization. Does that same problem of boiling the ocean, do you see that in both groups? >> Yeah, I mean you have fundamentally the same needs, the same problem that you have to solve, but different levels of complexity is really all it has to do with and different levels of budget, obviously, right? So, usually the solo admin doesn't have the million dollar budget for all the tools and bells and whistles, so they might have to do more on their own, but, then, they also have less time so it's a tough row to hoe, you know, to deal with, because you've got those two different fundamental problems of time and money and people are using the most expensive thing. So, no matter what the tool is you're trying to buy, it's usually your time that's the most valuable thing. So how do we get more of our time back? And that's really what containers were all about originally was just getting more of our time back out of it and so we can put back into the business instead of focusing on the tech itself. >> Nirmal, your talk tomorrow is on empathy. >> Yes. >> Very provocative, dig into that for us. >> Sure, so it was actually inspired by a conversation I had with John a couple years ago on Geek Whisperers podcast and he asked the folks on that show, yourself included, asked if there was an event in my past that I kind of regret or taught me a lot. And it was about basically neglecting someone on my team and just kind of shoving them away. And, that moment was a big change in how I felt about the IT industry. And, what I had done was pushed someone who probably needed that help and built up a lot of courage to talk to me and I kind of just dismissed him too quickly. And, from there, I was thinking more and more about game theory and behavioral economics and seeing a lot of our clients and organizations struggle to go through a digital transformation, a DevOps transformation, a cultural transformation. So, to me, culture is kind of the core of what's happening in the industry. And so, the idea of my talk is a little bit of behavioral economics, a little bit of game theory, to kind of set the stage for where your IT organization is probably kind of is right now and how to use empathy to get your organization to that DevOps and to a more efficient place and resolve those conflicts that happen inherently. And, somehow tie that all together with Docker. So, that's kind of what my talk is all about. >> Nice, I mean what's interesting to me, Lisa, is that we do Cubes and there are many Cubes actually all across the country during conference season, right? And we talk to CEOs and VPs of very large companies and even today, at DockerCon, the word 'culture' and the talking about culture and process and people has come up every single interview. So, it's not just from the techies up that this conversation is going... this DevOps and empathy conversation is going on, it seems to be from the top down as well. Everyone seems to recognize that, if you really are going to get this productivity gain, it's not just about the tech, you gotta have culture. >> Absolutely, a successful transformation of an organization is both grassroots and top down. Can't have it without either. And, I think we inherently want to have a... Like, we want to take a pill to solve that problem and there's lots of pills: Docker or cloud or CICD or something. But, those tools are the foundational safety net for a cultural transformation, that's all that it is. So, if you're implementing Docker or Jenkins or some CICD pipeline or automation, that's a safety blanket for providing trust in an organization to allow that change in the culture to happen. But, you still need that cultural change. Just adopting Docker isn't going to make you automatically a more effective organization. Sorry, but it's just one piece and it's an important piece but you have to have that top down understanding of where you are now as an organization and where you want to be in the future. And understanding that this kind of legacy, siloed team mindset is no longer how you can achieve that. >> You talked about trust earlier from a thematic perspective as something that comes up. You know we were at SAP Sapphire last week and trust came up a lot as really paramount. And that was in the context of a vendor/customer relationship. But, to your point, it's imperative that it's actually coming from within organizations. We talk a lot about, well stuff today: multi-cloud--multi-cloud, silos-- but, there's also silos with people and without that cultural shift and probably that empathy, how successful, how big of an impact can a technology make? Are you talking with folks that are at the executive level as well as the developer level in terms of how they each have a stake and need to contribute to this empathy? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the talk I'm doing is basically the ammunition a lower level person would need to go up to management and say, hey, you know this is where the organization is, this is what the IT department kind of looks like, these are the conflicts, and we have to change in order to succeed. And a lot of folks don't. They see the technology changes that they need. You know, adopting the new javascript framework or the new UX pattern. But, they might not have the ammunition to understand the business strategy, the organizational issues. But, they still need that evidence to actually convince a CTO or a CEO or a COO for the need to change. So, I've talked to both groups. From the C-level side, I think it comes from the inherent speed of the industry, the competitive landscape, those are all the pressures that they see and the disruptions that they are tackling. Maybe it's incumbent disruption or new startups that they may have to compete with in the future. The need for constant innovation is kind of the driver. And, IT is kind of where all that is, these days. >> That's great. Building on the concept of trust and this morning at the keynote, Matt Mckesson where they talked about trusting Docker, trusting Docker the company, trusting Docker the technology. Almost the very first words out of Steve Singh's mouth this morning were about community. And, I think community is one of the big reasons people do trust Docker and one of the things that brings them along. You guys are both Docker captains, part of a program of advocacy, community programs. I don't know, Bret, can you tell us a little bit about the program and what's involved in it? >> Yeah, sure. So, it's been around over two years now and it actually spawned out of Docker's pre-existing programs were focusing on speakers and bloggers and supporting them as well as community leaders that run meetups. And they kind of figured out that a key set of people were kind of doing two or three of those things all at once. And so, they were sort of deciding how do we make like super-groups of these people and they came up with the term Docker captain It really just means you know something about Docker, you share it constantly, something about a Docker toolset, something about the container tools. And that you're sort of... And you don't work for Docker. You're a community person that is, maybe you're working for someone that is a partner of Docker or maybe you're just a meetup volunteer that also blogs a lot about patterns and practices of Docker or new Docker features. And so, they kind of use the engineering teams at Docker to kind of pick through people on the internet and the people they see in the community that are sort of rising out of all the noise out there. And they ask them to be a part of the program and then, of course, we get nice jackets and lots of training. And, it's really just a great group of people, we're about 70 people now around the world. >> And yeah, this is global as well, right? >> Oh yeah, yep. It's one of my favorite aspects is the international aspect. I work for Booz Allen which is a more US government focused and I don't get to interact with the global community much. But, through the Docker captain program got friendships and connections almost on every continent and a lot of locations. I just saw a post of a Docker meetup in like, I think it was like Tunisia. Very, very out there kind of places. There was a Cuban one, recently, in Havana. The best connections to a global community that I've ever seen. I think one of the biggest drivers is the rapid adoption and kind of industry trend of containerization and the Docker brand and what it is basically gave rise to a ton of folks just beginners, just wanting to know what it's all about. And, we've been identified as folks that are approachable and have kind of a mandate to be people that can help answer those initial questions, help align folks that have questions with the right resources, and also just make it like a soft, warm, fuzzy kind of introduction to the community. And engage on all kinds of levels, advanced to beginner levels. >> It was interesting, again, this morning, I think about half the people raised their hands to the question, "is it their first year?" So, it still seems like the Docker, the inbound people interested in Docker is still growing and millions of developers all over the world, right? I don't know, Bret, you have a course, Docker Mastery, you also do meetups, and so I'm curious like what is the common pathway or drivers for new folks coming in, that you see and talk with? >> Yeah, what's the pathways? >> Yeah, the pathway, what's driving them? What are they trying to do? Again, are they these solo folks? >> Yeah, it's sort of a little bit of everything. We're very lucky in the course. We actually just crossed 55,000 students worldwide, 161 countries on a course that is only a year old. So, it kind of speaks to the volume of people around the world that really want to learn containers and all the tools around them. I think that the common theme there is I think we had the early adopters, right, and that was the first three or four years of Docker was people that were Silicon Valley, startups, people who were already on the bleeding edge of technology, whether it was hobbyist or enterprise. It was all people, but it was sort of the Linux people. Now, what we're getting is the true enterprise admins and developers, right. And that means, Microsoft, IBM mainframes, .Net, Java, you're getting all of these sort of traditional enterprise technologies but they all have the same passion, they're just coming in a few years later. So, what's funny is, you're meetups don't really change. They're just growing. Like what you see worldwide, the trend is we're still on the up-climb of all the groups, we have over 200 meetups worldwide now that meet once a month about Docker. It's just a crazy time right now. Everything's growing and it's like you wonder if it's ever going to stop, right How big are we gonna get, gonna take over the world with containers? >> Yeah, about 60% or more of all our meetups are completely new to Docker. And, it ranges from, you know, my boss told me about it so I gotta learn it or I found it and I want to convince other people in my organization to use it so I need to learn it more so I can make that case or, it's immediately solving a problem but I don't know how to take it to the next level, don't know where it's going, all that. It's a lot of new people. >> I get students a lot, college students that want to be more aggressive when they get in the marketplace and they hear the word 'DevOps' a lot and they think DevOps is a thing I need to learn in order to get a job. They don't really know what that is. And, of course, we don't even. At this point, it's so watered down, I don't know if anyone really knows what it is. But eventually, they search that and they come up with sort of key terms and I think one of those the come up right away is Docker. And they don't know what that is. But, I get asked the question a lot, If I go to this workshop or if I go the meetup or whatever, can I put that on my resume so I can get my first job out of school? They're always looking for something else beyond their schooling to make them a better first resume. So, it's cool to see even the people just stepping into the job market getting their feet wet with Docker even when they don't even know why they need it. >> It sounds like a symbiotic thought leadership community that you guys are part of and it sounds like the momentum we heard this morning in the general session is really carried out through the Docker captains and the communities. So, Nirmal, Bret, thanks so much for stopping by bringing your snazzy sweatshirts and sharing what you guys are doing as Docker captains. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching The Cube. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. We're live at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our next guest.

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 18. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. We are in San Francisco on a spectacularly sunny day. We're excited to welcome to theCUBE some guys from Red Hat. We've got Ben Breard, Senior Technical Products Manager, and Reza Shafii, VP of Platform Services. Guys, thanks so much for stopping by. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> It's great. >> So, Reza, you come from the CoreOS acquisition, you've been with Red Hat for about five months, Ben, you've been there about eight years, but I did see online that it's Red Hat's 25th anniversary. You guys have been doing something right for 25 years. >> Open source, that's what we do. (laughs) >> Open source. So talk to us, what's going on at Red Hat, what's new, what's exciting? >> I mean, OpenShift is, I mean, that's the big thing, right? I mean, so, just, this is a humbling time to be in the industry, like with this container wave and to see the industry adoption that we've had with OpenShift and, like, how all the technology in Red Hat's portfolio is just pushing and driving that along, it's, I don't know. It's exciting to me. >> No, it's very exciting. For us I think that cultural compatibility between CoreOS and Red Hat has been just fabulous to see. And then seeing how Red Hat provides a platform to really extend that and enhance that is just great, yeah. >> Culture is key. We talk about culture a lot when, at every event we talk about digital transformation, right? And culture is key to that, so maybe, Reza, give us a little bit of perspective, it's been five months now. How has CoreOS been embraced by the Red Hat guys and how are you now living in harmony? >> Right, well, first of all, CoreOS had, we always believed in open source. We were behind many open source projects in the containerized infrastructure space. And in that space, especially there on Kubernetes, we worked very closely with Red Hat. So, we knew each other really well. So as the teams got together, it was very easy for us to really get together and brainstorm towards what are the possibilities. And that's what we've been working on and, you know, the shovel has been hitting the ground for a while now and we're working on a conversion platform that brings Tectonic's technology to OpenShift. That's been very exciting as well as bringing the container Linux technology together with Red Hat, so. >> Some of those announcements happened at Red Hat summit a few weeks back or a month or so back. Can you talk about have there been any other updates? And also like, okay, maybe go one level deeper, so Tectonic was CoreOS', Kubernetes', I don't know, I don't wanna call it, would you call it a distribution? But a lot of autonomic and automation technologies for the operator built into Tectonic which was part of CoreOS' core DNA, now being brought into, kind of, the Red Hat platforms. So maybe you can talk a little bit about some of the stats, some of the recent developments. >> Yeah, so where we're at, it's kind of a phased implementation of bringing those technologies in, right? And so our next quarterly release, right, is gonna start, that's where, you know, we start bringing in some of the components, right? And then the one after that, you know, it's more on the operator side and then, you know, end of the year is when it's fully converged and so that's the path we're on, yeah. >> In terms of Kubernetes in general, Red Hat made a really early bet on Kubernetes and a big shift, a big pivot for its OpenShift platform. Kind of really embracing, throwing out a lot of the internals and embracing Kubernetes. Here at DockerCon, Kubernetes was a big topic, Docker's doing a lot of integration with Kubernetes, I kind of think that maybe that is, one size doesn't fit all but certainly Kubernetes is becoming accepted a lot more places. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, the implications of that, this phenomenon? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, well I think it's, there's a recognition that Kubernetes is now the defacto standard for orchestration, right? I think even if you go back a year ago, that was probably not quite there but now I think that that sense is there, and I think you're right, like, Red Hat embraced that three or four years ago and so did CoreOS and we both had to do a big shift, right? CoreOs was using fleets before that and we made a shift to Kubernetes. That has paid dividends, I think, because now we're really focusing on many of the concerns above and beyond just operating Kubernetes itself. It's what do you do above the stack and how do you operate everything above the stack, and that's where all the operator framework and everything we've been working on comes in. >> Yeah, I mean, it's basically how you get value in a more applied technology and a more application centered way. And so it's just been great to see the whole industry really rally around those standards and API's and everything and, you know, all the cloud platforms, everything, and so it's, you know, it's where the ecosystem is. >> Let's talk about collaboration. When you're talking with customers, you know, we've talked a lot today and at other events too, our enterprises are spending a lot of money, a lot of their IT budgets, on just keeping the lights on on mission-critical applications that they have to have but there's very little budget for innovation. Which is key to an organization being competitive, being relevant and being a leader. What are some of the customer conversations that you guys are having and what are some of the common barriers to container adoption that you're helping, with open to public customers, to eliminate? >> Yeah. >> I can take a shot at it. So, essentially, now on Kubernetes running stateless work goal at Kubernetes, is something that most people can do, right? Once you get to stateful work mode, that starts getting tricky and what we're seeing is that people who have now adopted Kubernetes for a year plus, they're starting to think, how do I run my stateful work on the databases, backend storage, in a, you know, scalable fashion on top of Kubernetes. And that's where we're coming in ans trying to help people, help the community, deliver that, really. Through creation of operators, through creation of reusable business logic that can do that across any Kubernetes department. >> Yip, I was just gonna add on to that, it's, like, as far just keeping the lights on and freeing up resources, right? When you look at all of the path and the deployment models on the net and new stuff, right, we're able to take away a serious amount of, like, operational overhead and just everything to where people can scale and just move way faster, right, and so there's a certain amount of that value that carries over to the traditional stuff, right, and so, you know, I think the biggest thing on the customer side is just, like, a mindset and culture change and getting, getting people to, like, change the way they look at the problem, right? And so, you know, those things and just understanding security, those are the big topics. >> Nice. I was at some Red Hat summit and one of the things that really impressed me there was this promise that, you know, we've all been trying to promise the end customer a time to value that you can actually do things faster, that you actually can innovate, was actually starting to be real in the sense that all of the customer examples were in terms of weeks or months and not years. And the Apple's app and the Apple's multi-cloud and all those other, and, so, can you talk a little about maybe some customers that are doing that or some examples of that, of both time to value and then the fact that a very few number of people were controlling very large infrastructures and I think you were just touching on that in terms of the operators and just all the automation, the day two sort of things. It seems like, I kind of think we've turned a corner in terms of productivity and time to value and real-life, real production workloads. >> Yeah, absolutely, and when you look at, like, where we see adoption, be it the financial sector, or, I mean, it's all over the place, it's really encouraging. And so at summit we had, I don't know, I think, like, 300, or 200 customer talks, it was insane. Going through the use cases and everything. Some of the big ones we're seeing from Amadeus, Optum and it was great. >> I saw an IDC report, I think on the Red Hat website, that showed that customers that adopt OpenShift can see a massive ROI, I wanna say it was, like, over 500% ROI within a 5 year period. >> Well, I think, part of, there's multiple factors to that, right? Part of it comes out of, just the sheer power of containerized infrastructure. Instead of deploying applications on a per compute basis and having to map them to single compute nose, you have the orchestrator that plays that perfect Tetris game with all of your applications. The other part comes a bit out of simplified operations, right? And that's where I think we're just at the beginning of the road. There is plenty more work to do on simplifying operations of Kubernetes and that's what I'm most excited about on this. >> Nice. Let's talk about the future. We are, I don't know, at an inflection point of this container technology, it's becoming more mature, people are in production, multi-cloud is certainly an aspect of what's going on, but I'd love for you to kind of explore a little bit more about some of the tooling. Like, I don't know if you need to get down into the OCI and the runtime level but, you know, what do we see the tooling doing? So, Kubernetes is there, you know, that level is there, but, like, what about, you know, builder and other things like that, like, what other pieces of tooling and automation are being developed to help, again, help developer productivity? >> Yeah, that's a good one, so I'll take a shot. So, it's a couple of things, so Kubernetes itself is plugable on, like, every tier, right, so it's finding that balance of seeing defaults and guidance of what works but then being flexible to work in customer environments so we can lock into, whether we're in, kind of, build strategy pipelines and, you know, whatever works for the customer and their, frankly, different teams, right? Because they all have different levels of maturity and stuff, so that's one thing, is just providing that level of flexibility. And the other thing is, you know, you said multi-cloud, just the way OpenShift provides that, like, common platform across anything, right, it just abstracts away any of the, you know, differences and whatever. >> Yeah, and we're seeing multi-cloud more and more with our customer base. And having a consistent model to deal with every one of them, including your non-prep environment, is becoming a bigger deal. >> In terms of, so on prep, maybe, actually I think it'd be useful. We've been talking about Kubernetes and OpenShift a lot but maybe let's step up a level and say, okay, OpenShift, how do you decide, so OpenShift has Kubernetes in it, but it's much more, it's a services platform built up off of, you know, rail on the bottom all the way up to, kind of, operators now. Can you talk a little bit about what else, what is some of the special sauce of OpenShift? >> Yeah, so, kind of what I was saying earlier about just, like, kind of every layer. So, we start, you know, like you said, rail, right, so the supported bulletproof kernel right up to the runtime, to the, literally the enterprise cube distribution is OpenShift. And then what we bring to it is this, like, amazing developer experience, right? And, like, the secret sauce of where it's going is all of the beauty from the CoreOS side on top of that. So, we've had the developer story, right, so, really, prescriptive onboarding of applications is the power because an empty cluster is useless, right, so you've gotta have that easy path to onboard. And then when we marry that with the day two stuff and all of the, you know, the deployment, and say, operators, everything, I mean, that's the, those pieces coming together is what differentiates it. >> From just up in the air of, kind of, Kubernetes. >> Right. >> Gets you part of the way but there's certainly a lot more. >> Yeah, it doesn't have any of the developer experience, the web console, the admin console, none of that stuff exists, right? >> The way I look at it is that the value add comes from two perspectives, right? One is from the system administrators and the infrastructural owners. That certainly comes to day two operations and how much to simplify that. How do you get a consistent interface across different environments? And how do you do things like accountability? Converging everything on to the same cluster, which is really what Kubernetes does, also changes the focus from a cost perspective, for example. From different application owners to a single owner. How do you make sure that, like, that owner is able to say, well, these are the people that are using it. We have services on top of Kubernetes, in OpenShift, that provide you that capability, for example. Through metering and charge back. Sometimes people call it metering and shame back. (laughing) And then from the point of view of developers, you know, there is multiple opinionated ways of simplifying developers life, right? And any given large enterprise has many, many ways of doing that and we wanna just be ready to address all of them and by the way, we have our own opinions and we have built that on top of OpenShift as well. >> So, you guys work a lot with developers. We have about five or six thousand people that are here at this event. I'm curious, when you go to open source events, including your own, are you finding that same mix of developers, IT professionals, enterprise architects and execs? And if so, what is that conversation like at that higher level where there might be, you know, checkbooks and keys to the kingdom and a business saying, hey, we have to iterate quickly. What is, kind of, the mix of conversations that you guys find in these communities? >> Yeah, it's the difference between the strategy, right, versus, like, bits, right? So, the admin, developer, we wanna focus, we wanna get in the weeds, right, and then the higher levels it's all about strategy, direction and enablement and those types of, you know, higher level concepts, right? So, I mean, that's, I don't know, my perspective. >> Are you learning that your conversations and maybe education of developers helps them then go up the chain within their organizations to explain, this is why we need to do this? >> I think there's some of that, right? The other thing I left off the lift though, is the cultural piece, because traditional enterprises, there's something here that they want to glean and take home in the culture space, right? And so that's a, you know, that's the other big one. >> I find that the conversation varies widely, right? So, when you talk to the infrastructure administrators and developers, you gotta be able to talk very technical and explain to them exactly how all this is working. And they're interested in the feature and technology. But when you talk to the CIO's out there, and the CTO's out there, really they're in interested in the outcome. And when you talk about the outcome it's easy just to show just what everybody wants to get to a pure DevOps model, everybody wants to get to a microservices model. This is kind of like going to the gym and seeing the of really fit people and then saying, well, yeah, but how do I get there, right? And this is where I think a company like Red Hat can come in and say, well, we'll work with you to get you there, right? So that's, that's important. >> Well the other one is just the value of being there and talking to your peers in the industry too, right? I mean, yeah, it's us, we're facilitating, but it's peers too, right? >> But you're right, culture, we talked about that, John, a number of times today, how critical culture is to being able to move past inertia. You know, we mentioned when I kicked off the segment that Red Hat is just celebrating its 25th birthday, so I imagine, I know you've been there, Ben, for 8 years, that there's been a lot of change there and a lot of cultural, kind of, mindset shift. Obviously, Reza, coming on in the last 5 months. Give us a little bit of an insight into the Red Hat culture that's helping to drive the agility that you need to also give your customers. >> Yeah, this is something our CEO talks about all the time, right? He wrote a book on it, The Open Organization, and, you know, just, like, lays out clear values of transparency, doing things very visually. We go through these exercises all the time just for changing our slogans and brands and these types of things, and the way where everybody participates and everybody takes ownership in it, right, and is part of it. And so that's one thing, I mean, we've been going through crazy growth. When I joined it was 3,000 people, now it's, like, 12,000 or so. I don't know the exact number but, and so how we scale that culture has been, it's been interesting, but it's been really successful. I mean, it's a big part of it. Open was a really clear message from summit, you know, basically in the cloud, open has won, right? Open innovation, open source, open culture. That's what's driving all the things we see now, I'd say. >> Yes. >> Well guys, thanks so much, Ben and Reza for stopping by theCUBE and sharing with us what's new at Red Hat and what excites you guys and we look forward to having you back on. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Thank you. >> We wanna thank you guys for watching theCUBE. Lisa Martin with John Troyer, from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. We are in San Francisco at Moscone, US. It's a spectacular day in San Francisco. It's a day to play hooky frankly, or play hooky and watch theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE Abby Fuller, Developer Relations from AWS. Abby, great to have you here. >> Happy to be here. >> So you were a speaker at DockerCon 2018. Tell us a little bit about that and your role in Developer Relations. >> So I work in Developer Relations for AWS. So I used to be a devops engineer, and now I go around talking to customers and developers and other software engineers, and teaching them how to use things with AWS, or this morning it was teaching everyone how to build effective Docker images. >> So I read in your bio on the DockerCon website of the speakers that you're a container fan. We know you're a music fan, but you're also a container fan. What is it about that technology that you just go, "Oh, this is awesome, "and I can't wait to teach people "about the benefits of this"? >> So I switched over to container as a customer before I started working at AWS, and the biggest reasons for me, the first one was portability, so that I could do everything that I needed to run my application all in one place. So I think a big problem for a lot of developers is the whole what works on my machine? So being able to package everything together so that it worked on my machine, but also on a staging environment, a QA environment, and on your machine, that was the biggest thing for me. And that it removed some of the spaghetti code that came before, and it just made everything, it was all packaged nicely, I could deploy it a little bit more easily, a little bit faster, and I eliminated a lot of the why doesn't it work now when it worked before? >> Abby, one of the paradoxes of where we are in 2018 is AWS has been around for a decade, but yet here at the show, about half the folks raised their hand to the question, this is your first DockerCon? Are you just getting started with Docker and containers? So as an evangelist, Evangelist Developer Relations, you're the front line of talking with people at the grassroots. So can you talk a little bit about some of the different personas you encounter? Are you meeting people who are just getting started with their container journey? Or are you spending a lot of time kind of finessing the details about that API, APIs and changes and things like that at AWS? >> I think my favorite part about talking to AWS customers is that you get the whole range, right? So you get people that are just starting and they wanna know how do I build a container? How do I run it? How do I start from zero? And then you get the people that have been doing it for maybe a year or maybe two years, and they're looking for like advanced black belt tips, and then you get the other group which is not everyone is building a greenfield application, so then you get a really interesting subset where they're trying to move over from the whole monolith to micro services story. So they're trying to containerize and kind of adopt agile containerize approaches as they're moving over, and I think the best part is being able to talk to the whole range 'cause then it's never boring. >> What are some of the big barriers that you see for organizations that are maybe on the very very beginning of the journey or maybe before it, when you're talking with customers or developers, what are some of the things that you're hearing them say, "Ah, but what about these? "How can you help me eliminate these challenges?" >> Two big ones for me. The first one is the organizational changes that go around the infrastructure change. So it doesn't always work to just containerize what you already had, and then call it a day. So a lot of people are decomposing, they're going with micro services at the same time as they're going with containers. And I think wrapping your head around that kind of decomposition is the first kind of big challenge. And I think that we really just had to educate better. So show people, so here are some ways that you can break your service up, here are some things to think about when you're figuring out service boundaries. And I think the other one is that they often want a little bit of help when they're getting started. So either educational resources or how can AWS manage part of their infrastructure? Will they focus on the container part? So it's really interesting and it runs a whole gamut. >> Abby, you in Developer Relations, I love the trend, the community orient and trend, they're great, of peers helping peers, you're out there, you're wearing a Bruce Springsteen shirt right now, you made a Wu Tang joke in your talk today which is something that one did not do a few years back, right? You had to kinda dress up, and you were usually a man, and you wore a tie. >> Got my blazer on today. >> You look very sharp. Don't get me wrong. But as you talk to people, one, what's your day like or week like? How many miles do you have this year? That's private. But also as people come up to you, what do they ask you? Are you a role model for folks? Do people come up and say, "How can I do this too?" >> Yeah, so miles for this year. I think like 175,000. >> Already just in June? >> Already this year. So, this is a lot of what I do. I talk to all kinds of customers. I do bigger events like this, I do meet-ups, I do user groups, I go to AWS summits, and dev days and builders days, and things like that. I meet with customers. So day-to-day changes everyday. I'm obviously big on Twitter, spend a lot of time tweeting on planes. It really depends. This is a lot of what I do and I think people, I don't think you can ever really call yourself a role model, right? I love showing people that there's pass into tech that didn't start off with a computer science degree, that there's tons of ways to participate and be part of the tech community, 'cause it's a great community. >> You're not just a talker, you're a coder too. >> Yeah, yeah, so every job before this one with the exception of my very first job which was in sales. I was a dev ops engineer right up until I took the job at AWS, and I like to think that I never left, I'm just no longer on call. But I build my own demos, I write my own blog posts, I do all my own slides and workshops, so still super active, just not on call, so it's the best of all the worlds. >> So you went to Tufts, you didn't major in computer science. >> No. >> You are, I would say, a role model. You might not consider yourself one-- >> Well you can say it, yeah. >> I can say it exactly. It's PC if I say it. But, one of the things that's exciting to have females on the show, and I geek out on this is, we don't have a lot of females in tech. I mean, I think the last stat that I saw recently was less than 25% of technical roles are held by women. What was your career path if we can kinda pivot on that for a second, 'cause I think that's quite interesting. And what are some of the things that you've said, "You know what, I don't care. "I enjoy this, I wanna do this,"? 'Cause in all circumstances you are a role model, but I'd love to understand some of the things you encountered, and maybe some of your advice to those that'll be following in your footsteps. >> Yeah, so I went to school for politics. Programming was a little bit of a side hobby before that, mostly of the how can I do this thing, do this thing that it's not supposed to be doing? So I did that, I went to school. I took a computer science class my very last semester in school. I did not know that it was a thing before then, so I'm I guess a little slow in the comp sci uptake. And I was like, oh wow cool, this is an awesome, this could be an awesome career, but I don't know how to get into it. So I was like okay, I'm gonna go to a startup, and I'm gonna do whatever. So I take a sales job. I did that for maybe nine or 10 months. And I started taking on side projects. So how to write email templates in HTML that I could use that directly showed an impact to my sales job. Then the startup, as startups do, got acquired. And as part of the acquisition I moved my little CRM engineering job to the product team. And then, I'm gonna be honest, I bothered the CTO a lot. And I learned side projects. I was like I've learned Python now, what can you have for me? So I basically bothered him a lot until he helped me do some projects, and totally old enough now to admit that he was very kind to take a chance on me. And then I worked hard. I did a lot of online classes. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of blogs. I'm a big proponent in learning by doing. So I still learn things the same way. I read about it, I decide that I wanna use it, I try it out, and then at the point where I get where I don't quite know what's happening, I go back to documentation. And that got me through a couple of devops jobs until I got to evangelism. And I think the biggest advice I have for people is it's okay to not know what you want right away which is how I have a politics degree. But you can work at it. And don't be afraid to have mentors and communities and peers that can help you 'cause it's the best way to participate, and it's actually whether you have a comp sci job or not, it's still the best way to participate, and that you can have, there are so many nontraditional paths to tech, and I think everyone is equally valuable, because I think I write better coming from a liberal arts degree than I would have otherwise. So I think every skill that you bring in is valuable. So once you figure out what you want, don't be afraid to ask for it. >> The thing I'm hearing here is persistence. And it just reminded me, a quick pivot, of I hosted theCUBE at Women Transforming Technology just a couple weeks ago at VMWare, and they just made a massive investment, 15 million into a lab, a research lab at Stanford, to look at the barriers that women in tech are facing. And one of our guests, Pratima Rao Gluckman, just wrote a book called Nevertheless, She Persisted. It reminded me of you because that's one of the things that I'm hearing from you is that persistence that I think is a really unique thing there. Sorry, I just had to take a little side. >> I saw you looked that up. And actually I saw the title and I have not read it yet, but I have a flight back to New York after this so I'll have to find that. >> You've got time. >> Yeah. >> Over and over again as I talk with folks about IT and tech careers, right? It's that thinking expansively about your job, trying things, being a continuous learner, that is the thing that actually works. Maybe pivoting back to the tech for a sec then, obviously here container central, DockerCon 2018, Kubernetes actually was a big news this morning at the keynote, a big announcement, how Docker EE is gonna connect to Amazon EKS among others, kind of being able to manage the Kubernetes clusters up there in the cloud. And EKS actually just had, it just had its general availability I believe, right? In the last week or so? >> Yeah, so, excited to see EKS in the keynote this morning. We're always happy to deepen our partnerships. Yeah, and we've been in preview since re:Invent, and then we announced the general though of EKS, so Amazon Elastic Container Service for Kubernetes, long acronym. So EKS, we announced the GA last Tuesday. >> The interesting thing about AWS is somebody just compared it, I saw a tweet today to an industrial supply store and it's a huge warehouse full of tools that you can use, and that includes containers. But for containers, the three pieces that are the largest are EKS, ECS, and Fargate. Can you kinda tease those out for us really briefly? >> Yeah so envision if you would a flow chart. So if you wanna run a managed container on AWS, first you pick your orchestration tool, so EKS or ECS. ECS is the one that we've been working on for quite a few years now, so Elastic Container Service. Once you've chosen your orchestration tool, for ECS you have another set of choices which is either to run your containers in the EC2 mode which is manager, cluster, infrastructure as well, so the underlying EC2 hosts. And Fargate mode, where you only manage everything at the container level and task definition level, so no cluster management. >> And that's all taken care of for you. >> That's all taken care of for you. So Fargate I think is not actually a service in the traditional way that we would say that ECS is a service, and more of like an underlying technology, so that's what enables you to manage everything at just the container level and not at the cluster level. But I think the best way of describing it is actually is, there's a really nice quote floating around that said, "When I ask someone for a sandwich, "they don't wanna know the whole sandwich logistics chain, "so how do I get turkey, how do I get cheese, "how do I get mayo on the bread, "they just want the sandwich." So Fargate for, I think, a lot of people, is the sandwich. So I just want the sandwich, just give me your container, don't worry about the rest. >> So we've already established Abby has a lot of miles already in half a year, so I'm thinking two things. One, we should travel with her 'cause we're probably gonna get free upgrades. And two, you speak with a lot of customers. So tell us about that customer feedback loop. >> Something that I really love about working at Amazon is that so much of our roadmap is driven by customer feedback. So actually something that was really cool is that this morning, so ECS announced a daemon-scheduler, so run tasks one per host on every host in the cluster, so for things like metrics, containers, and log containers. And something that is so cool for me is that I asked for that as a customer, and I just watched us announced it this morning. It's incredible to see every single time that the feedback loop is closed, that people ask for it and then we build it. The same thing with EKS, right? We want you to have a great experience running your infrastructure on AWS, full stop. >> Can you give us an example of a customer that's really been impactful in terms of that feedback loop? One that really sticks out to you as a great hallmark of what you guys are enabling. >> I think that all of our customers are impactful in the feedback loop, right? Anyone from a really small startup to a really large enterprise. I think one that was really exciting to me was a very small Israeli startup. They went all in on managing no EC2 instances very quickly. They're called The Tree. So they were my customer speaker at the Tel Aviv summit, and they managed zero EC2 instances. So they have Fargate, they have Lambda, they managed no infrastructure themselves. And I just think it's so cool to watch people want things, and then adopt them so quickly. And the response on Twitter after the daemon-scheduler this morning is like, my favorite tweet was, "This is customer feedback done right." And I love seeing how happy people are when they ask for something or are saying, "Now that you've added that, "I can delete three Lambda functions "because you made it easy." And I love seeing feedback like that. So I think everyone is impactful, but that one stuck out to me as someone that adopted something incredibly quickly and have been so, they're just so happy to have a need solved for them. >> Well that's the best validation that you can get is through the voice of the customer. So to hear that must feel good that not only are we listening, but we're doing things right in a way that our customers are feeling how valuable they are to us. >> Happy customers are the best customers. >> They definitely are. >> Yeah. >> We learn a lot from the ones that aren't happy, and there's a lot of learnings there, but hearing that validation is icing on the cake. >> Always. >> Last question for you. With some of the announcements that came out today, and as this conference and its figure has grown tremendously, when I was walking out of the general session this morning, I took a photo because I don't think I've seen a general session room that big in a long time, and that was just at the Sapphire last week which has 20,000 attendees. I was impressed with how captivated the audience was. So last question, what excites you about some of the things that Docker announced today? >> So I think that's interesting. Something that's excited me in general is watching the community itself flourished. So there's many, there's Kubernetes CGroups, and there's user groups, the discussion online is always incredibly rich and vibrant, and there are so many people that are just so excited for anything. It's all companies building what they're looking for. And I love seeing things like the Docker Enterprise Edition announcement this morning where the demo is EKS, but I just love seeing customers get the choice to do whatever they want. They have all the options out there, and that you can see how much more rich and vibrant everything is. From even a couple years ago, there's more people every year, there's more sessions every year, the sessions are bigger every year. And I just love that. And I love seeing when people get so excited, and then seeing people that came to your talk two years ago, come back and give their own talk I think is amazing. >> Oh, talk about feedback. That must have felt really good. >> I think it's not a reflection on me, it's a reflection on the community. And it's a very supportive community, and it's a very excited and curious audience. So if you see their reception to other people that talk a lot being like, oh we're really happy to have you, then the next year you're like, well I have a story and I wanna tell it, so I'm gonna sit in my own session, and I think that's the best. >> Well Abby, it's been such a pleasure to have you on theCUBE, thank you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for stopping by. And your energy is infectious so you'll have to come back. >> Anytime. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, live from San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back after a short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering DockerCon 18, brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer we are live from DockerCon 2018 on a sunny day here in San Francisco at Moscone Center. Excited to welcome to theCUBE Chris Brown the Technical Marketing Manager at Nutanix, Chris welcome to theCUBE! >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So you've been with Nutanix for a couple years, so we'll talk about Nutanix and containers, you have a session control and automate your container journey with Nutanix. Talk to us about what you're gonna be talking about in the session, what's Nutanix's role in helping the customers get over this trepidation of containers? >> Yeah, definitely, and it's, it's a 20 minute session, so we've got a lot of information to cover there 'cause wanna go over a little bit about, you know, who Nutanix is from the beginning to end but, the main part I'm gonna be focusing on in that session is talking about how we, with our com product, can automate VMs and containers together and how we're moving towards being able to, you know, define you application in a blueprint and understand what you're trying to do with your application. You know, one of the things I always say is that nobody runs Sequel because they love running Sequel, they run Sequel to do something, and our goal with the com is to capture that something, what it depends on, what it relies on. Once we understand what this particular component is supposed to do in your application, we can change that, we can move that to another cloud, or we can move it to containers without losing that definition, and without losing its dependence on the other pieces of the infrastructure and exchange information back and forth. So we're talking a little bit about what we're doing today with com and where we're going with it to add Kubernetes support. >> Chris, we're sitting here in the ecosystem expo at DockerCon and your booth is busy, there's a lot of good activity. Are people coming up to you and asking, do they know Nutanix, do they understand who you are, do they just say oh you guys sell boxes? You know you're both a, you're a systems provider, you're a private cloud provider, and a hybrid-cloud provider, do people understand that, the crowd here, and what kinda conversations are you having? >> It's actually really interesting 'cause we're seeing a broad range of people, some customers are comin' up, or some people are coming up that they don't reali--they don't know that other pieces, places their company use Nutanix, but they wanted to learn more about us, so they've got some sort of initiative that you know, a lot of times it is around containers, around understanding, you know, they're starting to figure out, you know, how do we deploy this, how do we connect? You know, we've got something we wanna deploy here and there how do we do that in a scalable way? But we also have some that have no idea who we are and just comin' up like so you've got a booth and some awesome giveaways, (laughing) what do I have to do to get that, and what do you do? And you know, I really kinda summarize it as two main main groups of people that I've seen is, one of 'em is, the people who've been doing containers for forever, they know it, they've been doing it, they're very familiar with the command line, they're ret-- any gooey is too much gooey for them. And then we've got the people who are just getting started, they've kinda been told hey, containers are coming, we need to figure out how to do this, or we've got, we need to start figuring out our containers strategy. And so they're here to learn and figure out how to begin that. And so it's really interesting because those, the ones that are just getting started or just learning, we obviously help out a ton because the people who came before had to go through all the fire, all the configuration, all of the challenges, and figure out there own solutions where as we can, now we kinda come in, there's a little bit more opinionated example of how to do these things. >> So DockerCon, this year is the fifth DockerCon, they've got between five thousand and six thousand people, I was talking with John earlier and Steve Singh as well, that how I really impressed when I was leaving the general session, it was standing room only a sea of heads so they've got, obviously developers here right, sweet spot, IT folks, enterprise architects, and execs, you talked about Nutanix getting those the two polar opposite ends of the spectrum, the container lovers, the ones who are the experts, and the ones going I know I have to do this. I'm curious, what target audience are you talking to that goes hey I'm tasked with doing this, are those developers, are those IT folks, are you talking with execs as well, give us that mix. >> For the most part they are IT folks, you're artusional operators who are trying to figure out this new shift in technology and we have to talk to some developers, and it's actually been interesting to have speak with developers because you know, in general that's not, that hasn't been Nutanix's traditional audience, we've sold this product called infrastructure to develop. But developers, the few developers I've talked to have gotten really receptive and really excited about what we can do and how we can help them do their job faster by getting their IT people on board but for the most part it'd be traditional IT operators who're looking at this new technology and you know, givin' it kind of a little squinty eye, trying to figure out where it's going, because at the end of the day, with any shift in IT, there's never a time where something is completely sunset, I mean people are still using mainframes today, people will be using mainframes forever, people are just starting their virtualization journey today they're just going from bare metal to VMs, so, and then even with that shift, there's always something that gets left behind, so, they're trying to figure out how can we get used to this new container shift because at the end of the day not everything is gonna be containerized because there's just simply some things that won't be able to or they'll scope out the project and then it'll end up falling by the wayside or budget will go somewhere else. So they're trying to figure out how they can understand the container world from the world that they come from, the VM-centric world, and then, you know, it's really interesting to talk to them and show them how we're able to bring those two together and give you, not only bring the container journey up another step, but also carry your VMs along the way as well. >> Chris, Nutanix is at a, the center of several different transitions, right, both old school hardware to kind of hyper converge, but not now also kind of private hybrid-cloud to more kind of multi-cloud, hybrid-cloud. When we're not at DockerCon, so when you're out in the field, how real is multi-cloud, how real is containers in a normal enterprise? >> Definitely, so, multi-cloud is a very hot topic for sure, everyone, there's no company, no IT department that doesn't have some sort of cloud strategy or analyzing it or looking at it. The main way that we get there, or one of the core tools we have is com once again, so, and I'm obviously biased because that's my wheelhouse, right, in marketing, so I talk about that day in day out, but, with com you can add, we support today AHV and EXSi both on and off Nutanix, as well as AWS, AWS gov cloud and GCP, and Azure's coming in down the line that's where Kubernetes will come in as well, so we see a lot of people looking a this and saying hey you know, we do wanna be able to move into AWS, we do wanna be able to move into GCP and use those clouds or unify them together, and some com lets us do that. There's a couple other of prongs to that as well, one of them is Beam, Nutanix Beam, which is a product we announced at DotNext last month, which is around multi-cloud cost optimization, Beam came from an acquisition that of bought metric--the company was called milinjar, I'm probably saying that horribly wrong, but made a product called bought metric which we've rebranded and are integrating into the platform as Nutanix Beam. So what that allows you to do is, you can, it's provided as a SaaS service, so you can go use it today, there's a trial available, all that, you give it AWS credentials and it reaches out and takes a look at your billing account and says hey, we noticed that these VMs are running 50% of the time at no capacity, or they're not being used at all, you can probably cut that down shrink these and save it or hey we noticed that in general you're using this level, this baseline level, you should buy these in reserved instances to save this much per month. And it presents all that up in a really easy to use interface, and then, depending on how you wanna use it, you can even have it automatically go and resize your VMs for you, so it can say, hey you've got a T2 medium or an M2 medium running, it really would make a lot more sense as a you know M2 small. You can, it'll give you the API call, you can go make it on your own, or you can have, if you give crede-- authorization of course, it can go ahead and run that for you and just downsize those and start saving you that money, so that's another fork of that, the multi-cloud strategy. And the last one is one of the other announcements we made around last month which was around--excuse me extract for VMs, so extract is a portfolio of products, we've got extract for DBs where we can scan your sequel databases and move into ESXi or AHV, both from bare metal, or wherever the sequel databases running, extract for VMs allows us to scan the ESXi VMs, and move them over to AHV. And then, we're taking extract for VMs to the next step and being able to scan your AWS VMs and pull them on, back on-prem, if that's what you're looking for as well, so that's right now in beta and they're working on fine tuning that. Because at the end of the day, it's not just enough to view and manage, we really need to get to someplace where we can move workloads between, and put the workload in the right place. Because really with IT, it's always a balance of tools, there's never one golden bullet that solves every problem, every time a new project comes out you're trying to choose the right tool based on the expertise of the team, based on what tools are already in use, based on policy. So, we wanna be able to make sure that we have the tool sets across, that you can choose and change those choices later on, and always use the right thing for the particular application you're running. >> Choice was a big theme this morning during the general session where Docker was talking about choice agility and security. I'm curious with some of the things that were announced, you know they're talking about the only multi-cloud, multi-OS, multi-Linux, they also were talking about, they announced this federated, containerized application management saying hey, containers have always been portable but management hasn't been. I'm curious what your perspectives are on some of the of the evolution that Docker is announcing today, and how will that help Nutanix customers be able to successfully navigate this container journey? >> Definitely. And--(clears throat) you know federation's critical, being able to, container management in general is always a challenge, one of the things that I've heard time and time again is that getting are back to work for Kubernetes has always been very difficult. (laughs) And so, getting that in there, getting, that is such a basic feature that people expect, you're getting the ability to properly federate roles or federate out authentication is huge. There's a reason that SAML took the world by storm, it's that nobody wants to manage passwords, you wanna rely on some external source of truth, being able to pull that in, being able to use some cloud service and have it federated against having Docker federated against other pieces is very important there. I might've gone way off there, but whatever. (laughing) >> No, no, absolutely. >> And then, the other piece of it is that we, with a multi-cloud, with the idea of it doesn't matter whether you're running on-prem or in the cloud or, that is what people need, that's one of the true promises of containers has always been is the portability, so seeing the delivery of that is huge, and being able to provision it on-prem, on Nutanix obviously because that's who I'm here from. (laughing) but, and being able to provision to the cloud and bring those together, that's huge. >> Chris you talked about Kubernetes couple times now, obviously a big topic here, seems to be kind of emerging de facto application deployment configuration for multi-cloud. What's Nutanix doing with Kubernetes? >> Yeah, so I've definitely, Kubernetes is, it's really in many ways winning that particular battle, I mean don't get me wrong Swarm is great, and the other pieces are great, but, Kubernetes is becoming the de facto standard. One of the things we're working on is bringing containers as a service through Kubernetes, natively on Nutanix, to give you an easy way to manage, through Prism manage containers just the way you manage VMs, manage Kubernetes clusters, and you know it's, it's really important that that's, that is just one solution, because we, there's as many different Kubernetes orchestration engines as you can name, every, any name you bring in, so that's my-- >> It's like Linux, back in the day, they're a lot of different distributions or there're a lot of different ways to consume Kubernetes. >> Exactly. And so, we wanna be able to bring a opinionated way of consuming Kubernetes to the platform natively, just as a, so it's a couple of clicks away, it's very easy to do. But that's not the only way that we're doing it, we're also we do have a partnership with Docker where we're doing things like deploying Docker EE through com, or Docker, it's of course all sorts of legalese but, they're working on that so it's natively in everyone's Prism central you can just one click deploy Docker EE, we have a demo running at our booth deploying rancher using com as well, because we wanna be able to provide whatever set of infrastructure makes the most sense for the customer based on, this is what they've used in the past, this is what they're familiar with, or this is what they want. But we also want to offer an opinionated way to deliver containers as a service so that those of you that don't know, or just trying to get started, or that that's what they're looking for, this, when you've got a thousand choices to make everyone's gonna make slightly different ones. So we can't ever offer one, no one can offer the true, this is the only way to do Kubernetes, we need to offer flexibility across as well. >> One of the words we here all the time at trade shows is flexibility. So, love customer stories, as a customer marketing person, I think there's no greater brand validation you can get than the voice of the customer, and I was looking on the Docker website recently and they were saying: customers that migrate to Docker Enterprise Edition, are actually reducing costs by 50%, so, you're a marketing guy, what're some of your favorite examples of customers where Nutanix is really helping them to just kill it on their container journey? >> Yeah, so, there's a, wish I'd thought of this sooner, I shoulda. (laughing) No, but we have a, one of our customers actually, I, this always brings a smile to my face 'cause they they came and saw us last year at the booth, they're one of our existing long time customers, and they're looking to adopt Docker. They came up and we gave 'em a demo, showed them how all the pieces were doing all of the, and he's just looking at it and he's like man, I need this in my life right now, and it was mostly a demo around Docker EE, using the unified control plane, and showing off, using Nutanix drivers showing how we can back up the data and protect individual components of the containers in a very granular fashion. He's like man I need this in my life, this is incredible, and he went and grabbed his friend ran him over, and was like dude we're already using Nutanix look what they can do! And the perfect example of the two kinds of customers, this guy goes like hold on a second, jumps on the command line, like oh yeah I do this all the time from there. (laughing) >> But, that was the, that light up, the light in the eyes of the customer where they were like, this, I need to be able to see this, to be able to use this, and be able to integrate this, that's, I will not forget that anytime soon. That's really why I think we're going down a very good path there, because the ability to, when you have these tinkerers, the people who are really good at code, I mean I spend a lot of time on the command line myself even though I'm in marketing, so, I don't know what I'm doing there, Powerpoints maybe? (laughing) Just because I can understand it from the command line or an expert can understand it, doesn't mean you can share that. I've been tryin' to hand off some of the gear that I manage off to another person, and was like oh you just type out all these commands, and they're like I have no idea what's going on here. (laughing) And so, seeing the customers be able to, to understand what they're more in depth coworkers have done in a gooey fashion, that's just really, that makes a lot of sense to me and it's, I like that a lot. >> It's great. >> Are you seeing any, and the last question is, as we wrap up, some of the, one of the stats actually that was mentioned in the Docker press release this morning about the new announcements was, 85% of enterprise organizations have multi-cloud, and then we were talking with Scott Johnston, their Chief Product Officer, that said, upwards of 90% of IT budgets are spent on keeping the lights on for existing applications, so, there's a lot of need there for enterprises to go this road. I'm wondering, are you seeing at Nutanix, any particular industries that are really leading edge here saying hey we have a lot of money that we're not able to use for innovation, are you seeing that in any specific industries, or is it kinda horizontal? >> I, to be honest, I've seen it kind of horizontally, I mean I've had, I've spoken to many different customers, mostly around com because, but, and they come from all different walks of life. I've seen, I've talked to customers from sled, who've been really excited about their ability to start better doing hadoop, because they do thousands of hadoop clusters a year for their researchers. I've talked to, you know in the cloud or on-prem, or across. I've talked to people in governments, I've talked to people in hospitals and, you know, all sorts of-- >> I can imagine oil and gas, some of those industries that have a ton of data. >> Yeah and it's actually, the oil and gas is really fascinating because a lot of times they, for in a rig, they wanna be able to use compute, but they can't exactly get to a cloud, so how do you, how do you innovate there and on the edge, without, how do you make a change in the core without making it on the edge, and how do you bring those together? So it's, there's really a lot of really fascinating things happening around that, but, I haven't noticed any one industry in particular it's, it's across, it's that everyone is, but then again, by the time they get to me, it's probably self selected. (laughing) But it's across horizontally, is that everyone is looking at how can we use this vast storage, I just found out this is already being used in my environment because it's super easy, how do I, how do I keep a job? (chuckles) Or how do I adopt this and free up my investments in keeping the lights on into innovation, how do I save time, how do I-- Because one of the things that I've noticed with all of this cloud adoption or container adoption all of that is that many times a customer will start making this push, not always from a low level, maybe from a high level, but, they start making this push because they hear it's faster and better and that it'll just solve all their problems if they just start using this. And, because they rush into they don't often they don't solve the fundamental problems that gave 'em the issue to begin with, and so they're just hoping that this new technology fixes it. So, now there's, I am seeing some customers shift back and say hey, I do wanna adopt that, but I need to do it in a smart way, 'cause we just ran to it and that caused us problems. >> Well it sounds like with all the momentum, John, that we've heard in the keynote, the general session this morning, and with some of the guests, you know, I think even Steve Singh was saying only about half of the audience is actually using containers so it's sounds like, with what you're talking about, with what we've heard consistently today, it's sort of the tip of the iceberg, so lots of opportunity. Chris thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE and sharing with us all the exciting things that are going on at Nutanix with containers and more. >> Thank you so much for having me, it was a lot of fun. >> And we wanna thank you for watching theCUBE, Lisa Martin with John Troyer, from DockerCon 2018 stick around we will be right back with our next guest. (bubbly music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are live at DockerCon 2018 on a stunning day in San Francisco at Moscone West. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome two new folks to theCUBE from Skytap. We've got Lucas Welch, the senior director of communications and Hamish Hill, technical product marketing manager. Hey, guys. >> Great to be here, thanks for having us. >> And thanks for adding a lot of color, Lucas, to our set. >> Well, I just wanted to bring enough flair that you could realize I might have something interesting to say. >> Awesome, so speaking of interesting things, tell us about Skytap, what do you guys do, who are you, where are you based? >> Great, so Skytap. Founded in 2006, so relatively old by start-up standards but it's allowed us to learn a lot about where clouded option has been going. And what we've seen is there really is an overlooked challenge that enterprises are facing today, right? So, cloud native development, growing rapidly, gonna continue to develop, but what do you do with all your old stuff, your existing applications? And so Skytap is a cloud purpose-built for modernizing those traditional applications and we do that through a process we call IPA, although we don't advocate that you drink on the job. It's Infrastructure, Process, and Architecture. And the idea is to really get yourself to true modernization and making the most of cloud, and containers, and all of the modern technologies we can see on the show floor behind us, you first need to modernize the infrastructure, get yourself out of the data center. From there, in eliminating that barrier, you're gonna be able to modernize the processes. How do you develop, how do you change your applications? And by getting better in that regard, adopting things like DevOps and agile methodologies, finally you can start to make changes to the application themselves. So, in short order, we are the cloud for modernizing traditional applications and we like to see ourselves as complementary to the folks at AWS behind us and others who are best for that cloud native web scale development of new applications. >> Great conversation this morning at the Key Note about modernizing applications. I think it's on everybody's mind because the world does not start fresh and new every day, right? We all are working with things that we've been carrying, for some cases, for years and decades. So Docker is talking about, in fact we modernized a .NET application, I think, this morning so they showed a little bit of a demo with that and kubernetes. Can you talk a little bit about how you work with Docker and, you know, some of the challenges that you work with in terms of modernizing applications? >> Yeah, Docker has a great framework with what they have with their MTA. Actually, our VP of Product, Dan Jones, presented yesterday on making modernization magical and really looking at how Skytap complements what Docker has with their MTA framework. And I think Skytap provides, with our IPA approach, a great platform for enterprises to execute the Docker MTA approach and beyond that, sort of what Skytap provides is the abilities, sort of, to move out of the data center and get away from the hardware side of things, and start to leverage some of the scale that you can get out of the cloud. >> What are some of the things that an enterprise, that a legacy application expects that it's not gonna have if you just lift and shift it. You know, why do we need Skytap? >> Yeah, I think what's important to remember is often, even just lifting and shifting it is very difficult because if you want a monolithic or traditional application that's very much wed to the infrastructure it was built on five, 10, 15 years ago, taking that and putting it in a hyper scale provider often means you gotta rewrite from scratch and that's a really arduous process, often one that creates a skills challenge in and of itself because not only do you need people to manage the existing application, you need a whole set of new skills to take a cloud-like approach to that development. So that can create a lot of challenges and so what we see here at DockerCon, really the reason we're here, is both Docker and Skytap see the next wave of cloud, the next wave of modern development, is gonna be, "How do we bring all these benefits we've seen "in Cloud Native development "to those existing applications?" and what we see ourselves doing is eliminating that infrastructure barrier so then you can really start using containers to their full benefit, whether it's in Skytap cloud, in another cloud, or both. >> So, just to follow up a little bit. So it's not just some services like, I don't know, you've gotta have authentication, and you've gotta have storage, and you've gotta have all the things that an old legacy application, sitting in a data center, expects. But it sounds like, also, there's operational services as well and being able to operate with that kind of cloud-level agility? >> Yeah, what we provide with Skytap is, you know, we have a concept of a Skytap environment and so within that environment, you can have your traditional X86, sort of, VMware-based workloads. We also support IBM power systems. So we're the only cloud that can run AIX workloads and Linux on power and so alongside that, what we get is sort of the combination of being able to bring in containers as well and so as organizations go through that modernization journey, being able to receive or see value in the hybrid applications, sort of, along the way. >> We saw a lot of stats, thanks Lucas, this morning I think one of the first ones that I saw was in the press release that Docker released which was, this morning, 85% of enterprise organizations are running a multi-cloud strategy, so that's pretty pervasive. We're also seeing stats like, up to 90%, we had Scott Johnston on earlier, their Chief Product Officer, up to 90% of enterprises are spending, sorry. Enterprises are spending up to 90% of their IT budgets just keeping the lights on for traditional applications. As you said, lift and shift isn't practical for a number of reasons. You also talked about, you know, skill-set changes there. So I'm curious, what are some of the, kind of, common challenges you're seeing in the customer environment where they might be trepidatious to go to the container journey and how specifically does Skytap and Docker knock those out of the park? >> Yeah, well those stats, I think, are really indicative of the challenge and then the new approaches that companies are trying to take to solve that challenge which is, you have so much invested in what's made your company successful, and if you're a long-standing enterprise doing well on your market, you've been doing this for 10, 15, 20, maybe more, years and you've done very well to get yourself to where you are. You've invested millions, if not billions in your infrastructure, your talent, and the people that build the systems that run your business so to burn that all to the ground and start from scratch doesn't make a lot of sense and so, I think, one challenge you run into is inertia, right. It's like "Hey, we did well to get here, "why do we need to suddenly change everything we're doing?" And Skytap's recommendation is you don't need to change everything, but you do need to prepare to be able to change much more rapidly as our economy continues to be more driven by digital technique. So you have inertia as a challenge. I think you also have that idea that if you're spending 90%, as you said, right, of what you just got with the lights on, where's the money and where's the time gonna come for net new and how can you bring those two together? And so that's really where I think Skytap would play a big role is bridging that gap from where you are today, allowing you to leverage the people that you have, the skills that they have, the technology that you have invested in. So you don't have to throw that all out overnight. And instead you can get more and more value out of it as you bring it into the cloud, gain incremental agility, and then, over time, make the modernization and evolutionary changes you want to make based on business needs, not having technology drive what your business does. >> How much of that is a cultural change that you guys can help companies understand is essential? Because culture, change in culture is obviously, especially with large enterprises, they can't pivot that quickly, but culture is essential for a company to successfully undergo digital transformation. I'm just wondering, what kind of conversations are you seeing with that inertia? How much of it is culture needs to change and mindsets to embrace, you know, moving forward? >> Yeah, I mean, we see a lot of this in the conversations we have with customers. We see a lot of it comes out of the market from what analysts sort of have to say as well and I think reasons out of an analyst article that was shared sort of publicly so it talks about, actually, enterprises who have adopted DivOps first are actually more successful in the move to containerization and that's what we see, sort of, with the customers that come to us. And what we're able to provide and what the customers see in Skytap is, actually, the simplicity of the UI that we provide is, actually, a good step from what they currently have without sort of needing to get into what can often be multiple UI's and screens in some of the hyper scale cloud providers. And then on top of that, sort of, the on-demand access to environment so you're taking away, sort of, what is typically a reactive approach from corporate IT when they need to reach out and go, "Hey, I need "another environment or I need another BM like this." And these organizations, it's often taking maybe six to eight weeks to get those environments turned around. We can provision a complex environment in less than, sort of, 30 seconds in Skytap. So it enables those teams to be a lot more productive in what they're doing. And there's sort of the first phase of deciding to sort of adopt the changing culture before sort of even getting into that move from, sort of, after linking in with legacy applications, you've gotta waterfall SDLC, and so actually moving from there into, sort of, more agile approaches and looking at how you can increase release cadence and what, sort of, comes into that from a people aspect, and a process change, and a methodology, and how Skytap, sort of, supports that along with integration with other third party's automation tools as well. >> Yeah, I think you nailed it on the culture point and I just wanted to not forget about people as being a big part of culture, right? And you have, fear is a very real thing, right? Fear of change, fear of net new. And so in our own adoption of Docker, and containers, and kubernetes internally. SO our cloud runs on a very large kubernetes cluster of containerized services so internally, over the last few years, we went through our own modernization journey. And I think that, paired with some research we've seen, we recently did a study with 451 Research looking at what enterprise tech leaders are experiencing. The fear of change, the reticence to change, and then just the lack of knowledge of, "Okay, what is required of me?" Like, "You're asking me to change overnight. "All of a sudden I have to take classes at night "while I do my day job." I think these are really, very realistic and human questions to ask and I think you need to take that into account when you're looking at digital transformation, modernization, so thinking about, "Hey, how do we communicate, "with transparency, what we expect and the time frame?" Let's be upfront about the challenges we expect to run into and where we're gonna have problems and how we'll deal with those together. And make sure the communication is crisp, and clear, and consistent, so that people at least know what's going on, even if they may not like it upfront. >> Well, Lucas, you brought up kubernetes and containers, right? We're here at DockerCon, so, obviously, containers on the tip of everybody's tongue. But you also work with legacy apps, which traditionally, I suppose at this point, traditional means a VM. So how does that go together? What are you looking at your customers? Are they able to transition to more containerized infrastructure? Are they sticking with VMs? I mean, how do modern containers fit into the Skytap platform here? >> Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of adoption with our customers who are moving into Skytap with their traditional applications and we continue to, sort of, learn and observe what they're doing. For us, there's two types of customers that move to Skytap. The first of those are really looking to migrate their whole data center or evacuate the data centers going, "Where can I put these legacy applications?" You know, there's not many places they can sort of go and so they move them into Skytap, get them up and running in there, and sort of see some benefits in that. And then, almost organically, start to look at going, well how else can I make, or get my team to be sort of more cloud-native or cloud reading. It's sort of an evolution of the people component we were talking about before and sort of going, all right, well as I get my teams more ready for cloud native, they start to sort of move towards containers and cloud native services. For our, sort of, other organizations that come in are those who already know and probably have already experienced, you know, other cloud, sort of, modernizations and are looking at what have they been able to achieve and what do they learn from that. And seen the value in actually Skytap and actually come to us with the approach of going, "Right, we want to come in here. "We want to move to more agile sort of methods. "We want to, sort of, start to take our traditional "monolithic applications, break it down "into into microservices, and move it into containers." >> I'm curious. One of the things that Steve Singh, the CEO of Docker, said this morning during his keynote was, about half the room, there's about five to six thousand people here at DockerCon, their fifth conference, that only about half of them are already on this containerization journey. I'm curious, and I know there's no one-size-fits-all, but when you're talking to customers who are at the preface of going, "All right, we've gotta do this. "This is really an essential component "of our transformation." What's the time frame that they could look to see measurable business impact once they start working with Skytap and Docker on this container journey? >> Yeah, well, I think we've gotta move away collectively as an industry from the idea that there's a Big Bang or silver bullet approach to change, right? I spent the five previous years before joining Skytap last year at a company called Chef Software, competes with Puppet, who's here on the show floor. Automation software. And what I saw there in terms of both DevOps adoption, adoption of automation, and the transition to the cloud, is that if you think you can get everybody full sale on the same amount of change at the same time, to do that effectively in a relatively reasonable amount of time, you're going to not only fail, but by failing, you actually set yourself further back than had you taken a more iterative approach. So I think from a time perspective, I think the first answer is you'll never be done so presume that the journey will continue into perpetuity because continuing to gain agility, continuing to get better at delivering software, to deliver value to customers, I don't see an end to that in any sort of near-term in our economy so I think that's gonna go on for a long time. So digital transformation, modernization, whatever buzz word people may want to use, the idea of evolving and changing is an ongoing process. I think, then, business leaders will say, "Well, that's baloney, I need change now. "I want results." I think, start with a project that has a deadline associated with it, alright? We need to be able to deliver our customer banking app online, via mobile, by January. Okay, well, bite that off singularly and so that you focus on that first, you learn from how you do that process, and then you can take those learnings, communicate them, and pick another project and another project. So we recommend kind of an iterative, progressive approach that will put time and measurable goals around a specific project, meet those deadlines, hopefully, if you're successful, and then give you a lot to learn and operate off of the next time. >> That's great. I'm really kind of curious about looking forward and economic models. You know, everything is as a service at this point. You have a lot of traditional providers, the Dells and HPEs of the world who sell a lot of hardware still and sell a lot of things upfront and they, the analysts and everyone else scratching their heads about how they get to sell more services along with that. Skytap's already there. You're selling your cloud provider, you're selling a service, in some ways you're replacing some of the infrastructure or, you know, an adjunct to it. I'm just kind of curious, going forward, I mean, is this the future of cloud? As a service provider, how do you see the economic model of the DNA of Skytap partnering with people? We've ended up talking about process and people more than we've ended up talking about technology today. Which is kind of fascinating. But is that, project us into the future, what do you all see? >> Yeah, I think what we see today with cloud, and the microservices and container model is really the evolution of what was sort of the virtual data center and developing in sort of VMs. And so sort of going a step beyond that, we're seeing the container model grow and as you rightly pointed out, we talked a lot about people and process and I think that sort of was what's holding back a little of the enterprise adoption today and I think as organizations get into this sort of process and mindset, almost and sort of going, "Hey, things are gonna continue to evolve over time "and our organizations need to be "ready to adopt a lot of these." And this isn't just sort of your development level as well as looking at right, well how does your corporate IT teams, how do your security teams and other parts of the business realize this is gonna continue to evolve really quickly? And I think that's what we're gonna continue to see, sort of up front and it's gonna drive a lot of the adoption of the cloud native services and containers but it's gonna take a bit of time for some organizations to get there. >> Yeah, I have a soapbox, I want to stand on it real quickly. I think cloud is the way forward, right? So no one wants to be in the infrastructure business long-term. So I think regardless of what your deployment model will be, most businesses, five, 10, 15, 20 years from now, I don't see them owning a lot of data center real estate, right? So make the infrastructure someone else's problem. Whether that's Skytap, whether that's AWS, whether that's Azure, or, frankly, whether that's all of us, to your multi-cloud statistic, right? We see the same thing. It's much like the data center was today and has been for a long time. Use the right tool for the right job. You've got a mix of technologies so you're not locked in to any single vendor and you're able to fit technology to your business needs so I think, one, we're going cloud and that's gonna be the way it is. I think, two, is open source, right? I mean, that's where containers gained all their momentum where Docker did a fantastic job of really giving a vibrant community of developers an opportunity to do their work much more easy, much easier and much faster. And so I think you'll continue to see open source play a much larger component in how, even very large, long-standing businesses, develop what they're doing. And then you bring those two together, right? You look at, how can the cloud ecosystem best support open source tools to deliver and develop software that's gonna add value at the end of the day. >> Guys, I wish we had more time. Thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us what Skytap is doing and how you're enabling customers to not just evolve from a technology standpoint but, I think, as we've all talked about here, really, what might even be more important is evolve the people and the processes. So thanks Lucas, thanks Hamish. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. Again, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018 in beautiful San Francisco. It's a stunning day here. We're at Moscone West, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. Very honored to welcome to theCUBE, for the first time, the CEO of Docker Inc., Steve Singh. Welcome, Steve. >> Hi Lisa, very nice to meet you. John, how are you? >> So the general session this morning, standing room only between five and six thousand people. I gotta say a couple things that jumped out at me. One, coolest stage entrance I've ever seen with this great, if you haven't seen it from the livestream, this, like, 3D Golden Gate Bridge and I loved that and I loved the demo of Docker Desktop that your kids did, fueled by Mountain Dew, which actually single handedly got me through college here in San Francisco. So, the momentum that you guys, it was kicking off with a bang. >> Yeah, I, look, I've got a great team and one of the things we wanted to communicate this morning is that you're seeing a massive transformation in the world of software. And this transformation is enabling every company in the world to think about their business in a new light. To think about how their business meets customer needs in a way that's much more personal, in a way that delivers more value. And this is the beauty of where Docker is, right, we have a chance to help literally every company in the world. And that's the part, honestly, that gets me excited, is, like, how do you help other people go create amazing businesses? And so this is, I couldn't be more happy to be at Docker. >> Steve, keying on that, one of the customers on stage today, McKesson. >> Yeah. >> And I loved Rashmi Kumar came out and talked about future-proofing for applications, their infrastructure, their applications in partnership with Docker. >> Yeah. And that implies a certain amount of trust that they have in Docker and Docker's technology platform and in partnering with you. You come from a, so you've been at Docker for about a year now, right? Came in as CEO. Docker is still a small company, a couple hundred folks but punching way above its weight with a huge community impact. How do you, and, you know, you've worked with the biggest companies in the world, how do you come in and establish that trust and help reassure them that you're gonna be a good partner for them and, kinda, what are you seeing with your customers? >> It's a great question, John, and look, there's maybe two or three pieces of how we think about that. The first thing, trust is very human, right? You've gotta know that you're walking into a situation as a vendor and as a customer but really as partners. And you're trying to solve a problem together. Because the reality is, this transformation that companies are going through is the first time in 40 years that this kind of transformation has happened. Second is, the technology stack is still in the early stages. Now, it's incredible and it enables amazing things, but it's still in the early stages. So both of us have to walk into the relationship knowing that, you know what, sometimes it won't go perfect, but guess what? We're gonna be, you know, if it doesn't go perfect we're gonna honor everything we ever committed to you and the same thing on the customer's side. They look at it and say, "I may have actually described my needs differently than what they actually are." And that's what a real partnership is. That's number one. Number two is, trust is driven by culture. And one of the things that I love about Docker is that we see our place in the world but we wanna make sure the customer always has choice. We wanna make sure that if we do a great job the customer will choose to work with us. If we don't, they should have the choice to go somewhere else. And that's what our platform enables, is the choice to be able to work with anybody you'd like to work with, whether you're the developer or you're an operator or you're an IT, I'm sorry, an architect, or the executive. The other piece around this is that part of the value of Docker is it's not just the 400 people of our company, right? There's 5,000 members of our community that are adding value to our community. One of the things that I wanna make sure we do for our community is help them not just innovate on this incredible platform but how do we help them take their innovations to market? And so that's part of the ethos of our company. >> One of the things that you talked about this morning that I thought was really compelling was, you said software innovation used to be, for the last 40 years, it's been driven by tech companies. That's changing. You talked about distributed innovation and distributed consumption. How is Docker helping to, culturally, I don't wanna say instill, but helping to influence, maybe, organizations to be able to distribute innovation and be able to share bi-directionally? >> Yeah, so, a great question, Lisa. So, first of all, is there's a cultural change within companies. When you think about the next generation or the next 40 years being, software being driven from non-technology companies. First of all, we're seeing that. Second is that it requires a cultural change within the business but that change is critical 'cause in the absence of becoming more of a software company your business is gonna be under threat, right? From the competing business. Look at what Netflix has done in media compared to every other media company. That same example applies in every single industry. Now, the way that we help enable that software transformation is to provide a platform that is so easy to use that it doesn't require a lot of training. Now this is complicated platforms, so, yes you have to be a fantastic developer or an IT professional but our job is to take complicated technology like container management software, orchestration layers like Swarm or Kubernetes, service mesh, storage networking, all of those, and make it so simple and easy to use that your IT department can say, "I can use this platform to effectively future-proof your company," right? So, how do you have a platform that you can build every application on, take all of you legacy applications on, run it, and then run it anywhere you like. >> I think that's been one of the through lines for Docker since the very beginning, that developer experience, right? >> Yes. >> And what's been interesting in Docker's development was, I think for both inside and outside, is kind of, what is Docker Inc, and the project versus the company, what is it selling, what's the commercial aspect here? I think, I kind of think back to my experience at BMWare, where there was an enterprise side and then a huge install base of workstation folks. And it's even stronger with Docker because actually now with Docker Desktop as an application development environment or a, you know, I don't wanna, not quite development environment but, you know, the one you announced today with Docker Desktop. That's an even more valuable through line into the Enterprise Edition. >> Yeah. >> But I don't, so, I guess where I'm heading, Steve, is, can you talk a little bit about the commercial situation? Docker EE as the flagship platform. >> Yeah, of course. >> And, kind of, where we are in the maturity journey with customers right now, it's real and important. >> Absolutely John, but you're bringing up a great point within this. Look, we're both, we're a enterprise software company and we're this incredible community where innovation is being brought in by every member of the community. And there's nothing in the world that says you can't do both. This idea that you're one company versus another, this is nonsense, alright? It's a very narrow view of the world. In fact, I would argue that, more and more, companies have to think about that they have multiple people that they serve. Multiple constituents that they serve. In our case we serve the Enterprise IT organization and we also serve developers. And developers are a critical part, not just of our community, that is the life of every company going forward. Which is why we're so excited about this. That's the life of every company. So, Docker Desktop, the reason we're so excited about it is, first of all, it is the easiest way to engage with Docker, to build applications. And then we feel like there's a lot more innovation that we can actually deliver within Docker Desktop. Alright, so a million new developers joined on Docker Desktop this year. In fact, we're growing about seven or eight percent month over month on that. And so you should expect over the next year another million will be on Docker Desktop. But it's incumbent upon us to say, the only way that we continue to earn the trust of that portion of our constituents, that of the developer community, is to make sure we're innovative, to make sure we're open to allow others to innovate on top of us. >> I'd love to, kind of, explore on audience a little bit. So, in terms of innovation, you know, we know that the companies that have the ability to aggressively innovate, and to do that they have to have the budget, are the ones that stay relevant and that are the most competitive. But I think I saw some stats and I think Scott Johnson said that close to 90 percent of IT budgets are spent keeping the lights on. So you have very little dollars to actually drive innovation. So when you're talking with customers, and you said you just met with 25 of Docker Inc's biggest customers just this morning, are you talking to both the developer guys and girls as well as the C suite? >> Yeah. >> What is, how are you connecting and then, maybe, is it a conversation to enable the developers to be able to sell the value up the stack or is it vice versa? >> A couple of things here, so, first of all, John, I didn't answer part of your question which is the growth in our Enterprise customer base. We've literally doubled it year over year, right? So, more than 500 Global 10,000 companies that are using Docker to run their applications and to manage their applications. The way that we engage with our customers is literally across the entire constituents of that organization, right? A developer by themselves, as genius as that group of people are, you can't deliver the application. And delivering the application is just as important as building it. And so the IT organization, the ops organization is critical. And then there's gotta be an overriding objective. What is it we're trying to do? How do we transform ourselves into a software company? You think about, think about just for example, Tesla, right? When you have a company, and I realize Tesla's stock goes up and down, they're always in the news, but when you have a company that's worth more than some of the biggest automotive companies in the world, you have to ask yourself why. Well, part of the reason why isn't just the fact that we've got an electric vehicle that's better for the environment. Part of it is, it's really as much a software company as it is a automotive company. They have incredible amounts of data about how we use our cars, where we go, and in fact the Tesla cars are actually interconnected. And so, that brings a perspective in how you build cars and how they're gonna be used and how they're gonna be consumed that's radically different than if you're just an auto manufacturer. Now, look, Ford and GM and Volvo are all really smart, great companies and they're quickly moving through to themselves being software companies. >> Steve, can you talk a little bit about ecosystems? Microsoft, on stage this morning, a long partnership with them but also here at the show, right, enterprise folks, Dell and Accenture and I'm just looking down the list as well as Google and Amazon, right? So, you need to be partnering with a lot of folks to make all this work. How are you approaching that? >> John, part of the reason for that is, let's start with a simple premise, is something this large, alright, you can't possibly innovate fast enough on your own, alright? There's seven billion amazing people on this planet. The only way you can really drive mass scale global innovation, is you have to be open, right? I'm literally a guy that was born in a mud house in India, so I certainly appreciate the opportunity to participate in the rest of the world's economy. So we have to be open to say, anybody that wants to contribute, can. Now, obviously we think that contribution has to be within an ethos, right? If your definition of contribution is how do you help your own business, that's not good enough. You have to look at this and say, there has to be choice, in our view, choice, security and agility. So, how do we deliver those values or that ethos to our customers? And if you're willing to do that, man we want to partner with everybody in this space. >> Yeah, I, sometimes I despair of the tech press, although I consume a lot of it and if I never have to read another Swarm versus Kubernetes article again I would be happy. But Kubernetes' all over the keynote and it seems like Docker you all have embraced it and in fact are supporting it in very innovative ways with the cloud providers. In terms of ecosystem can you talk a little bit about-- >> Yeah, well, part of the value of Docker is we simplify very complex things and make it available to our customers to consume with little training, little understanding of the underlying deep technology. And the other part is that it comes back to this idea that innovation will happen everywhere. Why should we view the world as it's our solution or, you know, nobody's? That's nonsense, right? Kubernetes is a fantastic orchestrational entity. Why shouldn't it be integrated into the Docker container platform? And so, as we did that, guess what happened? Our customers, all they saw was, instead of conflict they saw the opportunity to work together. In fact it's been amazing for the growth in our business, that's why ewe doubled year over year. >> Now, collaboration is essential and we were talking with Scott Johnson a little bit earlier today about the internal collaboration but also the external collaboration with customers. You talked about partnerships, I think that the MTA program, the Modernization of Traditional Apps launched about a year ago with Avanade, Cisco, HPE and Microsoft. Tell us a little bit about that, probably around the same time that you came to the helm. You're seeing, you know, customers like Visa, PayPal as part of this program, be able to transform and go to the container journey. >> Yeah, and Lisa, this speaks to an observation you made a few minutes ago about the fact that, you know, 85, 90% of IT budgets are fixed before you even walk into the year. So, look, the Docker platform can be used for any kind of application. Legacy apps, next generation apps that run in the data center, next generation apps that run on Edge devices. But if you accept that 90% of the apps that sit within a company are all legacy apps, well, guess what, that's where their cost is. And then if you marry that to the fact that every CIO has this problem that I don't have a lot of money that's free in my budget. Well, how do we help solve that? And the way we chose to solve it is this Docker MTA solution. Modernizing Traditional Apps. Take your traditional apps, run 'em on the Docker platform, run 'em on any infrastructure you like, cut your app and infrastructure management costs in half. Now, then take that savings and then apply it towards innovation. This is why it resonates with CIO's. I mean, as much as they may love Docker and they may love us, they have a business to serve and they're very, very practical in how they think about, you know, going about their business. >> So with that approach, thanks John, how receptive were those enterprise CIO's to going, "You're right, we've gotta start with our enterprise apps." They don't have the luxury of time, of ripping out old infrastructure and building them on containers or microservices architectures. And these are often mission-critical applications. Was that an easy sell, was that, tell me about that. >> (laughs) Well, nothing's easy but the reality is, is that it, they got it quickly, right? Because it speaks directly to their paying point. And what I'm very proud of with my team is not only were we able to deliver a great product for MTA but we're also helping our customers actually make sure they can migrate these apps over. But what's been really a positive, you know, kind of a signal we've seen, that's still the early stages, is that as our customers are moving their legacy apps to Docker and running 'em on new infrastructure, sometimes public cloud, and cutting costs, they're starting to take that cost savings and actually applying it to their next generation apps. So they're not using Docker for new apps. And so that is, that's the benefit of when you really try to solve the problem the way the customer wants to consume it. >> So, Steve, the user conference, very energizing, right. >> Yeah. >> Already the energy's been good here, you've been doing trainings and certifications, there's people behind us, everyone's talking, so that kind of in some ways sets the tone for the year, so as you and your team go back to the office after this week, you know, what are you looking to do and what can we expect out of Docker? >> I'll just speak to two things. First of all, there's so much innovation we still have to deliver. If anything, you know, I would say my team will tell me I might be pushing a little hard. But you know what, this is the fun, you only have x number of years in life and you should make the most of it. So we're really excited about new apps, we're excited about SecurEdge apps. We're excited about, I don't know if you saw the demo this morning, of Armada, which allows you to run any app on any operating system, on any infrastructure, all from a single pane of glass. Our customers love that and they're very excited about that. That said, you know, this is a, it's a big test. We have a huge opportunity to welcome a lot of other companies, so when you walk around and see 5,000 people that see amazing opportunity, not just for Docker, for themselves, right? That's the secret part of Docker that I love. We're creating jobs that didn't exist before, right? I mean, you see kids coming out of college now getting Docker skills and they're using that to grow their IT profession. In fact, I was just at i.c.stars, this is an amazing organization in Chicago that helps individuals who've been displaced in the workforce learn the IT skills required to come back to the workforce and really help run internal IT organizations. Guess what they're learning? They're learning Docker. So that's, these are the kind of things that get us excited. >> And that's essential for enterprise organizations who, that's one of the challenges they face, was, you know, modernizing the data center, which they have to do, but then it requires new skill sets, maybe upskilling, so it's exciting to hear that you're seeing this investment in people that have an opportunity, the proclivity to actually learn this technology. >> Yeah, this is, we are happy because we help customers but we also create amazing new jobs that, you know, are, certainly our community can still benefit from. >> So, last question, the three themes that came out of your session and really the general session this morning was, you talked about someone's choice, agility and security. Are those the three pillars that you believe Docker, upon which Docker sits as really competitive differentiators? >> Amen, amen, number one, but it's also our values, right? This is rooted in our values and when a company performs best is when their values show up in their products. Because then you're never lost, you'll always know what you're focused on. And you know, when I ran Concur, we had this vision, north star, called The Perfect Trip. And our objective was to always go create a delightful business trip experience. And for Docker I wanna make sure that we have a north star. And our north star is our values and they have to translate directly to what actually helps the customer. >> Love that, the north star. Well, hopefully theCUBE is the north star of modern tech media. Steve, thanks so much for stopping by. >> Thank you, it's wonderful to meet you. It was great to meet you as well and congratulations on the big success. >> Thank you. >> We look forward to hearing-- >> Thank you Lisa, thank you John. >> What's coming out in the next year. >> Thank you. >> And we wanna thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer today live from San Francisco DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon '18, brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are live at DockerCon 2018 in San Francisco on a spectacular day. I am Lisa Martin with my with my co-host for the day, John Troyer, and we're very pleased to welcome back to theCUBE a distinguished CUBE alumni and Docker veteran, Steve Johnston, Chief Product Officer at Docker. Welcome back. >> Thank you, thank you very much. That's Scott Johnston but that's okay. >> What did I say? Steve? >> Steve. That's okay. >> Oh, I gave you a new name. >> You know, I get that all the time. >> I'm sorry, Scott. >> That's alright. >> This event, between five and six thousand people. >> Yes. >> You were saying in your general session in keynote this morning, that this is the fifth DockerCon. You started a few years ago with just 300 people and when I was walking out of the keynote this morning, I took a photograph, incredible. People as far as the eye can see. It was literally standing room only. >> It's crazy, right? And you think about four years ago, June 2014 when we did our very first DockerCon, here in San Francisco, 300 people, right? And we've gone from 300 to over 5,000 in that time, grown the community, grown the products, grown the partnerships and it's just, it's very humbling, honestly, to be part of something that's literally industry changing. >> You gave some great numbers during your keynote. You talked about 500 customers using Docker Enterprise Edition. >> Yes. >> Some big names. >> Yes. >> MET Life, Visa, PayPal, McKesson, who was on stage and that was a really interesting. McKesson is what, 183 years old? >> Healthcare company, yeah. >> Talking about data, life and death type of data. >> Right. >> Their transformation working with Docker and containers was really pretty impressive. >> It's exciting that companies get their hands on the technology and they start maybe on a small project or a small team but very quickly they see the potential impact of the solution and very quickly, it's almost infectious inside the organization and more and more teams want to jump on, understand how they can use it to help with their applications, their business to get impact in their operations and it just spreads, spreads like wildflower. That was really the story that McKesson was sharing, just how quickly they were seeing the adoption throughout their org. >> I thought that was really interesting and they did point it out on stage, how that developer adoption did help them go to the next level. >> Yes. >> And kind of transform their whole pipeline. >> Yes. >> Now Scott, you've been here the whole line of time and that through line has been, for Docker, that developer experience. >> That's exactly right. >> Now, as Product Lead here, you've got the Docker Desktop side and the Docker EE side and it's clear, there were some great announcements about desktop here, previews today but how do you balance the enterprise side with the developer centric desktop side and that developer experience idea? >> No, it's a great question, John. I'd reshape it almost to say, it's a continuous platform from developer experience to the operation side and you have to stand back and kind of see it as one and less about trading off one versus the other and how do you create an experience that carries all the way through. So a lot of Gareth's demonstration and the Lily Mason play, was showing how you can create apps in Docker very easily as a developer but those same artifacts that they put their apps in to carry all the way through into production, all the way through into operations. So it's about providing a consistent user experience, consistent set of artifacts that can be used by all the different personas that are building software so that they can be successful moving these Docker applications through the entire application development life cycle. Does that make sense? >> It does, thank you. I'd love to get your perspective, when you're talking with enterprises who might have some trepidation about the container journey, they probably know they have to do it to stay agile and competitive. I think in the press release, I believe it was you, that was quoted saying, "An estimated 85% of enterprise organizations are in a multi Cloud world." >> That's right. >> In a multi Cloud strategy. >> That's right. >> So when you're talking with customers, what's that executive conversation like? C level to C level, what are some of the main concerns that you hear and how influential are the developers in that C suite saying, "Hey guys, we've got to go this direction"? >> No, that's right. That's a great question, Lisa and what we hear again, and again, and again, is a realization going on in the C suite, that having software capabilities is strategic to their business, right? That was not always the case, as much as a decade ago, as recently as a decade ago, inside kind of big manufacturing businesses or big verticals that weren't kind of tech first, IT was a back office, right? It was not front and center but now they're seeing the disruption that software can have in other verticals and they're saying, "Wait a minute, we need to make software capabilities a core capability in our business." And who starts that whole cycle? It's the developers, right? If the developers can integrate with the lines of business, understand their objectives, understand how software can help them achieve those objectives, that's where it kicks off the whole process of, "Okay, we're going to build competitive applications. We then need an operations team to manage and deploy those applications to help us deploy them in a competitive way by taking them to the Cloud." So developers are absolutely pivotal in that conversation and core to helping these very large, Fortune 500, hundred year old companies, transform into new, agile, software driven businesses. >> Modernizing enterprise apps has been a theme >> Yes. >> also at Docker for a few years now. >> Yup. >> Up on stage Microsoft demonstrating the results of a multiyear partnership >> That's right. >> between Microsoft and Docker both with Docker integrating well with Windows server as well as, you talked about, Kubernetes now. >> That's right. >> Can you talk a little bit about what the implications of this are? The demo on stage, of course, was a very old enterprise app written in dot net, with just a few clicks, up and running in the Cloud on Kubernetes no less. >> That's right. >> Managed by Docker, that's actually very cool. You want to talk a little bit about, again, your conversations? >> Absolutely. >> Is this all about Cloud native or how much of your conversations are also supporting enterprise apps? >> Tying back to Lisa's question, so how do we help these organizations get started on their transformation? So they realize they need to transform, where do you start? Well guess what? 90% of their IT budget right now is going into these legacy applications and these legacy infrastructures, so if you start there and it can help modernize what they already have and bring it to modern platforms like Docker and Kubernetes, modern platforms like Window Server 2016, it's a modern operating system, modern platforms like Clouds, that's where you can create a lot of value out of existing application assets, reduce your costs, make these apps agile, even though they're thirteen years old and it's a way for the organization to start to get comfortable with the technology, to adopt it in a surface area that's very well known, to see results very, very quickly and then they gain the confidence to then spread it further into new applications, to spread it further into IOT, to spread it further into big data. But you've got to start it somewhere, right? So the MTA, Modernized Traditional Apps, is a very practical, pragmatic but also high, very quick, return way to get started. >> Oh, go ahead. >> Well I just, the other big announcement involving Kubernetes was managing Kubernetes in the Cloud and I wanted to make sure we hit that. >> That's right, that's right. >> Because I think if people aren't paying attention, they're just going to hear multi Cloud and they're going to go on and say, "Well everybody does multi Cloud, Docker's no different, Docker's just kind of catching up." Actually, this tech preview, I think, is a step forward. I think it's something- >> Thank you. >> I haven't actually seen in practice, so I'm kind of curious, again, how you as an engineering leader make those trade offs. Kind of talk a little bit about what you did and how deciding, "Well there's multi Cloud but the devil's in the details." You actually have integrated now with the native Kubernetes in these three Clouds, EKS, AKS and GKE. >> GKE, no that's right. No, it's a great question, John. The wonderful and fascinating but double edged sword of technology is that the race is always moving the abstraction up, right? You're always moving the abstraction up and you're always having to stay ahead and find where you can create real value for your customers. There was two factors that were going on, that you saw us kind of lean in to that and realize there's an opportunity here. One is, the Cloud providers are doing a wonderful job investing in Kubernetes and making it a manage service on their platforms, great. Now, let's take advantage of that because that's a horizontal infrastructure piece. At parallel we were seeing customers want to take advantage of these different Clouds but getting frustrated that every time they went to a different Cloud they were setting up another stack of process and tooling and automation and management and they're like, "Wait a minute. This is going to slow us down if we have to maintain these stacks." So we leaned in to that and said, "Okay, great. Let's take advantage of commoditized infrastructure, hosting Kubernetes. Let's also then take advantage of our ability to ingest and onboard them into Docker Enterprise Edition, and provide a consistent experience user based APIs, so that the enterprise doesn't get tied into these individual silos of tools, processes and stacks." Really, it's the combination of those two that you see a product opportunity emerged that we leaned heavily into and you saw the fruits of this morning. >> I saw a stat on the docker.com website that said that customers migrating to EE containers can reduce total cost by around 50%? >> Yes. >> That's a significant number. >> It's huge, right? You're reducing your cost of maintaining a ten year old app by 50% and you've made it Cloud portable, and you've made it more secure by putting it in the Docker container than outside and so it's like, "Why wouldn't you invest in that?" It shows a way to get comfortable with the technology, free up some cashflow that then you can pour back into additional innovation, so it's really a wonderful formula. That again, is why we start a lot of customers with their legacy applications because it has these types of benefits that gets them going in other parts of their business. >> And as you mentioned, 90% of an enterprise IT budget is spent keeping the lights on. >> That's right. >> Which means 10% for innovation and as we've talked about before, John, it's the aggressively innovating organizations that are the winners. >> That's exactly right and we're giving them tools, we're giving them a road map even, on how they can become an aggressively innovating organization. >> What about the visibility, in terms of, you know, an organization that's got eight different IT platforms, on prem, public Cloud, hybrid- >> Right. >> What are you doing with respect to being able to deliver visibility across containers and multiple clusters? >> That's right. Well that's a big part of today's announcement, was being able ... Every time we ingest one of these clusters, whether it's on prem, whether it's in the Cloud, whether it's a hosted Kubernetes cluster, that gives us that visibility of now we can manage applications across that, we can aggregate the logging, aggregate the monitoring. You can see, are your apps up, down, are they running out of resources? Do you need to load balance them to another cluster? So it's very much aligned with the vision that we shared on stage, which is fully federated management of the applications across clusters which includes visibility and all the tools necessary for that. >> Scott, I wanted to ask about culture and engineering culture >> Thank you. >> The DockerCon here is very, I think we called it humane in our intro, right? There's childcare on site, there's spoustivities, there's other places to take care of the people who are here and give them a great experience and a lot of training, of course, and things like that. But internally, engineering, there's a war for talent. Docker is very small compared to the Googles of the world but yet you have a very ambitious agenda. The theme of choice today, CLI versus GUI, Kubernetes versus Swarm, Lennox and Windows, not versus, Lennox and Windows, you know and, and, and, and now all these different Clouds and on prem. That's very ambitious and each "and" there takes engineering resources, so I'm kind of curious how the engineering team is growing, how you want to build the culture internally and how you use that to attract the right people? >> Well it certainly helps to be the start up that kicked off this entire movement, right? So a lot of credit to Solomon Hykes, our founder, and the original crew that ... Docker was a Skunkworks project in the previous version of our company and they had the vision to bring it forward and bring it to the world in an opensource model which at the time was a brand new language, go language. That was a catalyst that really got the company off and running in 2013/2014. We're staying true to that in that there's still a very strong opensource culture in the company and that attracts a lot of talent, as well as continuing to balance enterprise features and innovation and you see a combination of that on stage. You're also going to see a wonderful combination of that on the show floor, both from our own employees but also from the community. And I think that's the third dimension, John, which is being humble and call it "aware" that innovation doesn't just come from inside our four walls but that we give our engineers license to bring things in from the outside that add value to their projects. The Kubernetes is a great example of that, right? Our team saw the need for orchestration, we had our own IP in the form of Swarm, but they saw the capabilities of Kubernetes is very complimentary to that, or some customers were preferring to deploy that. So, no ifs, ands or buts, let's take advantage of that innovation, bring it inside the four walls and go. So, it's that kind of flexibility and awareness to attract great engineers who want to work on cutting edge, industry building technologies but also who are aware enough of, there's exciting things happening outside with the community and partnering with that community to bring those into the platform as well. >> So Scott, you guys are doing a lot of collaboration internally, but you're also doing a lot of collaboration with customers. How influential are customers to the development of Docker technologies? >> At ground zero, literally and we have at DockerCon, we call it a customer advisor group, where the customers who have been with us, who have deployed with us in production, we have them. And it's a very select group, it's about twelve to sixteen, and they tell us straight talk in terms of where it's working, where we need to improve. They give us feedback on the road map and so that happens every DockerCon, so that's once every six months. But then we actually have targets inside engineering and product management to be out in the field on a regular basis to make sure we're continuing to get that customer feedback. Innovation's a tricky balance, right? Because you want to be out in front and go where folks aren't asking you to, but you know there's opportunity, at the same time here, where they are today, and make sure you're not getting too far ahead. It's the old joke, Henry Ford, where if he's just listened to his customers, he would have made faster horses but instead he was listening to their problems, their real problems which was transportation and his genius, or his innovation, was to give them the Model T, right? We're trying to balance that ourselves inside Docker. Listen to customers but also know where the innovation, where the technology can take you to give you new solutions, hopefully many of which you saw on stage today. >> We did, well Scott, thanks so much for stopping by theCUBE again and sharing some of the exciting announcements that Docker has made and what you're doing to innovate internally and for the external enterprise community. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, John. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. Again, Lisa Martin with John Troyer, live in San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our next guest. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We are live in San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer on a stunning day here in San Francisco. This event draws between 5,000 and 6,000 people in only its fifth year. They did a very good job during the general session this morning, John, of having some great female leaders on stage and we're very pleased to welcome another female leader to theCUBE for the first time. Alex Qin, you are the Director of Technology at Gakko. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you. It's great to be here. >> So, you're speaking here at DockerCon 2018, I want to get to that in a second, but tell us a little bit about Gakko. What do you guys do? >> Um, yeah. So we're a global education design studio based in Tokyo and New York and what we do is we put on experimental education programs and build experimental education technology that aim to reclaim the magic of learning. So, we put on summer camps, we have coding classes, music classes and we build software for early learners. >> And by early learners what age group are you talking about? >> So ages three to five. What we build is beautiful story and art driven apps for kids ages three to five to be able to spend time more thoughtfully on tablets 'cause nowadays kids are always on tablets no matter what we do and so what we want to do is create a world that they can be in, in which parents feel like, this is a good place for my child to spend time. They're learning, it's artful, it's thoughtfully built. >> Great, well Alex you are also the founder of The Code Collective. >> The Code Cooperative, yes. >> The Code Cooperative, I'm sorry. How did you get started with that and can you tell us a little bit about that as well? >> Yes, so The Code Cooperative is my passion project and I started it in 2016, the day after the presidential elections actually, and it's an organization that teaches formerly incarcerated individuals computer literacy and coding, so that they can build websites and technical solutions to the problems they've identified in the criminal justice system. >> Some examples of that might be? >> A story I love to tell is from the pilot class. I had one student who was a 65 year old man and he'd been in prison for over 20 years and so at 65, he took our class and he learned HTML, CSS and JavaScript and built a website that aims to educate visitors about the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow in the criminal justice system today. Just like an interactive quiz. Yeah, that was really cool. It was called The Criminal Injustice System. >> Nice, nice. >> What were some of the drivers that really led you to go, you know what? We've got a huge opportunity here to take some of these people who have had made some different choices and really, sort of, rehabilitate them in a way that's gonna enable tech for good. What were some of those things that you just went, we've got to do this? >> That's a good question. Well, I read the book, The New Jim Crow, which you may have heard of. It's an incredible book that really details a lot of the problems that exist today within the U.S. criminal justice system and I thought to myself, I want to learn more about the justice system and contribute positively to justice system reform, but I don't know anything about it. So what I should do is work with people who have been through the system, learn from them and empower them to highlight the issues that they see within the justice system and that's something that I think is really important. When it comes to building technology, right now the gatekeepers of tech are kind of a homogenous group and we tend to build tech solutions for the entire world, but actually the people who are best equipped to solve problems are those who have experienced them and so that's why I decided to start The Code Cooperative. >> Nice. Alex, you're talking here, you've got an interesting titled session, I'll make sure I get it right, Shaving My Head Made Me a Better Programmer. If I can connect that to the rest of the DockerCon, maybe, I mean, Docker has been very good at their whole history about developer experience, making things easier for people and I think sometimes people don't realize not only when you make things easier, you actually can bring in new audiences. Kids, prisoners, right, are able to use today's technology where 30, 40 years ago they wouldn't have had access to it because it's easier, it's more powerful, it's more ubiquitous. But sometimes we get stuck in old tropes and so I'd love for you to kind of talk a little about your talk and kind of, what you're going to be talking about here at the show. >> Sure, yes. So, my talk is called Shaving My Head Made Me a Better Programmer and it's a little bit of a misleading title, but basically it's the story of my journey though the tech industry as a minority woman. So I studied computer science and I've been a software engineer for my entire career and yet, I've encountered a lot of challenges because of my gender, because of how I present to the world and when I shaved my head, a lot of those challenges kind of disappeared because I wasn't perceived as feminine anymore and so when I realized that tech isn't the meritocracy that I thought it was, I kind of started on this new quest to make tech as diverse and inclusive as possible so that people from all backgrounds, all genders can learn to code and write code happily and safely and it's just the story of how that happened and the lessons I've learned and some tips on how to make organizations more inclusive because that's the bulk of my work now. >> So you were a C.S. major in New York? >> Yes. >> So were you always interested in STEM as a kid or was it something that you got into when you were in college? What was that sort of age that you found it really exciting and said, no matter what, even if there's very few women here, I love this, I want to do this? >> That's a great question. So I am originally from France, actually. And when I was growing up there was really little computer science education in schools, but I really wanted to be an astronaut when I got to college so I joined the engineering program at my school and I'd never coded at that point, but one of the requirements was an intro to programming class in Python. So I took it and I fell in love with it immediately and I was like, I'm majoring in computer science, this is so cool, this is the coolest thing I've ever done and as I entered the computer science world I realized, oh, there's not that many women here and actually, I'm treated very differently. So, I fell in love with it and then because I love it so much I just kind of powered through. >> Your passion is very palpable, so at any point did you feel, sort of, out of place? Going, I'm one of the only females here, or did you say, I don't care, I like this. >> Yeah, it's both. I mean, you feel out of place when there's very few people who look like you in the room. Even if you don't want to feel out of place, even if you try to pretend that's not the case, you can't help but feel that and when I was starting out and throughout my career, people didn't necessarily want to work with me, didn't believe I was a good programmer, even though I was at the top of all my classes and so even though I tried to make the most out of my experience, I couldn't really escape the stigma attached to my gender in this field. >> Alex, we're at an interesting part of our culture now, I suppose, especially online. On one hand, social media has elevated a lot of folks' voices that would not have been heard otherwise because of gatekeepers. On the other hand, we have our current online discourse, which is kind of, not very pleasant sometimes. So I am interested both kind of how you're navigating that online and then maybe as a followup, then as you work with companies, how you're working with them and what you're telling them, but in terms of online, I love Twitter and yet it frustrates me. Facebook as well, et cetera. How do you navigate that online yourself? >> That's a great question. Honestly, I have been kind of retreating from social media. I haven't really experienced too many negative interactions on social media because I'm not really a big presence there. I did kind of have a really bad experience once during a Grace Hopper conference. I tweeted something during the Male Allied panel of like, 2015, or something and that got picked up by some GamerGate writers and then a lot of people started tweeting negative things at me, but that's kind of the extent of my negative experiences online. I do think that, as you say, social media has allowed for uplifting of voices that were previously unheard, has allowed for activism to organize. There's so many positive things that come from social media and also it has a really nefarious affect on people and I think that something needs to change in terms of how these companies build their software. It needs to be safer for all people and also needs to be built more ethically. Less trying to manipulate our psyches. >> That's, I think, super important. Luckily at least that's a conversation now, right Lisa? That at least Facebook, I think eventually as a society we'll, I hope, we'll get through this and figure this out, but I don't feel like we're particularly literate with social at this point. But I did want to ask about your work with companies. You said you do talk with some companies about diversity and things like that, is there any either signs that folks are getting it right or things that you start off with as you're working, if someone asks, how do we become a more diverse workforce? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I can't really point to any companies that, I say, are doing amazing. There are some companies where I know folks are very happy. Slack is one of them, thoughtbot is another one of them. I'll say Gakko, but a few tips I generally give organizations is that you need to work to understand the problem. Why is there a lack of diversity in tech? Why is your team not diverse? Then you need to measure your data. You can't make a positive change if you don't know how much you're changing, right? So gather diversity data on your team, not just in terms of who's there, but who's in a leadership role. Who gets promoted? Who gets fired? Who's a manager? And then you need to commit. That's, I think, the place where a lot of people struggle is there's a lot of candidates who fit this, kind of, homogenous image of what a programmer is and so it can be easy sometimes to be like, well we need to hire someone right now so let's just hire this person. But in order to actually make a change you need to commit and you need to say I'm not going to compromise on the goals that we've set. >> You're absolutely right, that commitment word is exactly what's needed to drive that accountability to hold organizations up to that. I was just at VMware a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto at the Women Transforming Technology event and we had a whole day of all talking with females in tech, which I always loved to do and theCUBE is very passionate about supporting that. The cultural change is imperative. We talk about digital transformation at every event and there's the CIO that says, hey we have to change the culture here to transform digitally, but also to start moving those numbers from, what, less than 25% of tech roles are held by women. The culture has to change. It seems like you're in a position, potentially, to actually influence the culture at these companies that you talk to about opening their eyes to commit. Does that excite you from within? >> Yes, I do talk to a lot of organizations about this, but I think the work that I do that might actually tip the scale is, basically, the education programs that I run in New York. All of my classrooms reflect the diversity of New York, both in terms of student and teacher bodies. So all of my students learn in an environment that is extremely diverse. They learn from teachers who look like them and I wish I learned to code in that way. Another important thing we teach our students is how to code as an ethical endeavor. So we teach our students to measure the ethical ramifications of their decisions when they build software so that hopefully the technologists of tomorrow, the CTO's of tomorrow they build code in a way that is best for humanity. They build code with empathy. >> Goin' back to your day job. You're working with kids. We talked about getting through social media, cultural change. Its going to depend on the next generation. So Alex, are the kids alright? Are they gonna save us? >> The kids are pretty alright. I mean, so my classroom is basically coding meets social entrepreneurship so all of our kids build an app that solves a problem they've identified in their communities and these kids are just coming up with the most beautiful solutions, like, more brilliant than any adult that I've met. I feel good about the future. >> Well, it's key to get those different perspectives and when you were saying, they're having the opportunity to code and create apps that are relevant to them that's where you can really ignite that passion. >> Exactly, that's so important >> It is important because when you're passionate about something, and we saw that on stage today with a lot of the Docker folks and Microsoft and McKesson, when you're passionate about something and really making a change, you can feel it. So it's good to hear that we're going in the right direction. Also, we're in this age, you talked about ethics, where it's essential. Because technology, we see a lot of examples where tech is not used for good and there's world leaders getting some of the leaders of tech companies together saying, I'm challenging you, make tech for good because we're seeing too much of the negative right now. How does that influence, whether it's the breaches at Equifax, or, there was a breach recently at MyHeritage, the DNA testing companies, to Cambridge Analytica. How do you see the kids, the young kids respond to that, going, that's a really poor use of tech. Are they aware of that? >> I think some kids are and in our classroom we spend some time talking about, we have discussions about, ethics of software. So that's something that's very important to us. But largely, most classrooms in the United States, no, I mean computer science education is not a standard in most classrooms in the US. In New York state, only 1% of high schoolers actually have access to any kind of computer science education and so most kids, they might hear tid bits from the T.V. or social media or something, but they're not necessarily informed enough to make one, good decisions as consumers and two, good decisions as potential technologists. So that's something that we are trying to spread and I hope other folks are also trying to work on. >> Another thing that I think is shocking is when we were at the Women Transforming Technology event just a few weeks ago at VMware in Palo Alto, they just announced with Stanford, Stanford is investing 15 million dollars into their gender research. VMware and Stanford wanting to look at what are the barriers for women in tech and minorities in tech and starting to dissolve some of those barriers. One of the things they actually had in their press release announcing this big 15 million dollar investment from VMware and Stanford is a Mckinsey report that said 20%, sorry, enterprise organizations that have females in management positions, probably executive management positions, didn't specify positions, are 20% more profitable. You just think, the numbers are saying when you have more thought diversity, you're actually going to be a more profitable organization, but I think to your point earlier, Alex, there has to be a commitment and there has to be a group within an organization that stands accountable. >> Absolutely. >> So we are thankful for you. (Alex laughs) for donating some of your time today to tell us what you're doing, it's good to hear the next generation, John, I think they got our backs. >> Alright, that's good. >> And Alex, have a great time with your very provocative session this afternoon. >> Thank you. >> We thank you so much for your time and it's really cool to hear how you're using your passion for tech for good. >> Thank you so much, it was great to be here. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. From San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with out next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE. We are live in San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. I am Lisa Martin with my co-host for the day, John Troyer. John, it is not only a stunning day in San Francisco, beautiful blue skies, this is a packed event. Their fifth DockerCon event and they've got between 5,000 and 6,000 people. We just came from the general session keynote, and it was standing room only as far as the eyes could see. >> Yeah, looks like a good crowd here, a lot of energy. Docker keynotes, always super interesting, they always do a lot of demos, they bring up a lot of employees. It's not just like a parade of middle-aged executives, always is super dynamic, a lot of demos. Really liked the keynote this morning. >> I did too. The energy you mentioned was great. It kicked off with... who's the name of that gentleman that is one of the rally guys for... >> Franco Finn. >> Franco Finn, who has worked for the Warriors, the 2018 Golden State Warriors, NBA Champs. So that was a great way to kick it off, but also Steve Singh had great energy, their CEO, we're gonna have him on shortly today. Scott Johnston, and as you talked about their employees and also customers. They have some really great numbers. They've got, I think, about 120 sessions this year at DockerCon. Nine big enterprise customers talking about how they are approaching containerization with DockerCon. One of them was McKesson, which is a 183 year old company with a lot of staff that gave a really compelling keynote or a, yeah, a keynote this morning about how they are moving and modernizing their data center with Docker. >> A really nice story, a really an emphasis on trust, an emphasis on developer usability, and I liked one of the points was, once we got the developers using it it became easier, and I think using the whole platform. Lisa, I think they hit a lot of familiar things for Docker: so, developer experience, really big for Docker. That's they way they started, that's what they're still counting on. When Steve Singh got up, he talked about community, their very first thing. Over half the people here, first time at DockerCon and over half of the folks are just using containers in the late last year. That means this whole journey is just starting. There's a lot of white space in the container world. So developer experience, a big announcement, preview announcement for Docker Desktop, being able to create apps off of templates and things like that but very developer-focused shows as opposed to some of the more IT-focused. There's a broad mix here but definitely a lot of developers here at the show. >> A lot of developers, as you said, but also, you're right, it is a mix. It's IT professionals, it's enterprise architects, and it's executives and that's one of the... one of the targeted audiences that, I think, both Steve Singh and Scott Johnston talked about, so it'll be great to explore. As the CEO and the Chief Product Officer respectfully, what are they hearing from enterprise customers who have a lot of challenges with legacy applications that are very difficult to manage and I also read some stats, they had some stats in the press release this morning, but 80% of enterprise IT budgets are spent keeping the lights on for enterprise apps which leaves about 20% for innovation and of course, as we know, organizations that can aggressively innovate are the ones that win. So I'm not only looking forward to hearing with Docker Desktop, what they're doing to make it easy, easier, for developers to get in there and play around on both on Mac and Windows but also the executive conversation. What are they hearing from the executives and where is containerization, you know, from the c-sweep to the board room. >> Yeah, modernizing enterprise apps also has been a Docker theme for the last few years. Microsoft, the big guest up on stage, they've been a multi-year partnership with Microsoft and Docker, putting Docker with Windows together. The big announcement today, pre-technology preview of Kubernetes and Windows Server and the big demo was, they took a very old .net application and, you know, put it up on Kubernetes on Windows with just a couple of clicks. So again, I think that message to the executives is, "You're very safe in Docker's hands "We've got the developer experience covered, "we've got the partnerships." And then going big on Windows, I think choice was another theme that I heard ... >> Yes, it was. Steve talked a lot about choice. >> Um, to the execs here as well, both GUI and CLI, right? A lot of the cloud is very CLI-focused, very Linux-focused. Docker says "We're in on Windows, we support Windows "just as well as Linux so don't hate on the GUI. "You can use a GUI or you can use a CLI." No religion actually too, in terms of Linux versus Windows but Kubernetes, I thought, was a very big. Got mentioned a lot in the keynote this morning, Lisa. >> It did and you talked about choice. One of the things that Steve Singh mentioned from an executive's perspective is, three things that Docker is aiming to deliver. That sounds to me, as a marketer, like competitive differentiation. Talked about choice so that organizations can run apps wherever it makes sense for them, managing applications on any infrastructure, and, as you said earlier, about a few clips, managing their container infrastructures across multiple clouds in just a few clicks. They also talked about being, they also talked a number of times, not just in the press release but also this morning in the keynote, about no vendor lock-in. John, we hear that a lot, it sounds like a marketing term. What are you expecting to hear? What does that mean for Docker? >> I'm not so sure that lock-in is always important for every enterprise, in that any choice you make, it has a certain element of lock-in but it's an active argument or debate online that I see a lot. "Are you locked in when you go to a certain cloud? "Are you locked in when you choose a certain provider," whether it's open-sourced or not. Certainly a lot of Docker is open source. A lot of your choices are protected and they are really trying to say "We're going to be a platform that's going to "service a lot of different abilities to deploy." The big announcement that finished off the keynote was Docker Enterprise Edition can now manage Kubernetes. Not only Kubernetes in the cloud. Kubernetes on Prim, Kubernetes in the cloud managed by Docker, but can actually work with the native Kubernetes cluster managers of the clouds, of the three major clouds: Google GKE, Azure AKS, and AWS EKS. I think I got all those names right. But that's big because a lot of folks say "run anywhere" but they mean "run within our environment anywhere" and what Docker has done in Tech Preview is to connect its platform with the native platforms, orchestration platforms, of the three different clouds so that you can run on Prim, manage via Docker, or you can connect into the cloud's own cluster orchestration. And if they can deliver on that, the devil is in the details, but if they can deliver on that, that's actually a very nice feature to avoid that sort of lock-in. >> And that also goes to, John, one of the major things which is agility and one of the things that they've talked about is, containers today are portable but one of the challenges is that management of containers has not been portable. I think they said that 85% approximately of enterprise I.T. organizations that they has surveyed are running a multi-cloud strategy so they've gotta be able to really deliver this single pane of glass management so they talked about federated application or federated management of containerized applications. I think that's kind of what you're referring to in terms of getting away from the silos and enabling organizations to have that portability and especially as multi-national organizations need to have different access, different security, policies may be maintained across multiple locations. >> Indeed, right. These are global organizations that are betting on container technology. They do need access to be running apps, either parts of apps or services on different clouds. You might be running a Google cloud in Europe, you might be running an AWS here or vice versa. You might have some on-Prim stuff. We've seen a lot of that. I think another theme that we'll hit on, Lisa, along with that multi-cloud portfolio aspect, is the time to value. It's been a theme of this conference season. This last month or two, you and I have both been at a lot of different conference centers and I think time to value, being able to spin up apps within weeks or months that actually work and have value versus the old way, which was years and I think the theme for 2018 is that it's real. People are actually doing it and we'll talk to a couple of customers, I hope, today. >> And that's essential because enterprises, while there's still trepidation with moving into the container journey, they don't really have a choice to be able to aggressively innovate to be able to be leaders and compete with these cloud-native organizations. They don't have the luxury of time to rip and replace old enterprise applications and put them on a container or a micro-service's space archicture, they've got to be able to leverage something like containers to maximize time to value to deliver differentiating services. >> Absolutely. I'm very interested in being here today and we'll see what the day brings us. >> I think we're gonna have a lot of fun today, John. I think they kicked off things with great energy. I loved how, you know, they always do demos, right, on main stage during general sessions, and we were at SAP last week and of course, one of the demos didn't work. That's just the nature of trying to do things live. I liked how they were very cheeky with the praying to the demo Gods with the fortune cookies. I thought that was really good but the demos were simple. They were very clearly presented and I'm excited with you to dig in to what are they doing. Also what is setting them apart and how are they enabling enterprise organizations like MetLife, like McKesson, PayPal, Splunk to be able to transform to compete. >> Absolutely. One last thing about the conference, Lisa, is I do want to call out. It's a very humane conference. Not only do they have kind of a cheeky sense of humor here at Docker, but there's child care onsite, and there's spouse-tivities, there are activities for if you bring your spouse or family to the conference. They're trying to do a lot of things to make the conference experience good and successful and friendly and humane for people here at the show which I really appreciate. >> I like that, humane conference. You're right. We don't always see that. Well, John and I are going to be here all day talking with Docker executives, customers, partners and we're excited to have you with us. Lisa Martin for John Troyer. You're watching theCUBE at DockerCon 2018. We'll be right back with our first guest. (techno music)