>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We are live in San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer on a stunning day here in San Francisco. This event draws between 5,000 and 6,000 people in only its fifth year. They did a very good job during the general session this morning, John, of having some great female leaders on stage and we're very pleased to welcome another female leader to theCUBE for the first time. Alex Qin, you are the Director of Technology at Gakko. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you. It's great to be here. >> So, you're speaking here at DockerCon 2018, I want to get to that in a second, but tell us a little bit about Gakko. What do you guys do? >> Um, yeah. So we're a global education design studio based in Tokyo and New York and what we do is we put on experimental education programs and build experimental education technology that aim to reclaim the magic of learning. So, we put on summer camps, we have coding classes, music classes and we build software for early learners. >> And by early learners what age group are you talking about? >> So ages three to five. What we build is beautiful story and art driven apps for kids ages three to five to be able to spend time more thoughtfully on tablets 'cause nowadays kids are always on tablets no matter what we do and so what we want to do is create a world that they can be in, in which parents feel like, this is a good place for my child to spend time. They're learning, it's artful, it's thoughtfully built. >> Great, well Alex you are also the founder of The Code Collective. >> The Code Cooperative, yes. >> The Code Cooperative, I'm sorry. How did you get started with that and can you tell us a little bit about that as well? >> Yes, so The Code Cooperative is my passion project and I started it in 2016, the day after the presidential elections actually, and it's an organization that teaches formerly incarcerated individuals computer literacy and coding, so that they can build websites and technical solutions to the problems they've identified in the criminal justice system. >> Some examples of that might be? >> A story I love to tell is from the pilot class. I had one student who was a 65 year old man and he'd been in prison for over 20 years and so at 65, he took our class and he learned HTML, CSS and JavaScript and built a website that aims to educate visitors about the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow in the criminal justice system today. Just like an interactive quiz. Yeah, that was really cool. It was called The Criminal Injustice System. >> Nice, nice. >> What were some of the drivers that really led you to go, you know what? We've got a huge opportunity here to take some of these people who have had made some different choices and really, sort of, rehabilitate them in a way that's gonna enable tech for good. What were some of those things that you just went, we've got to do this? >> That's a good question. Well, I read the book, The New Jim Crow, which you may have heard of. It's an incredible book that really details a lot of the problems that exist today within the U.S. criminal justice system and I thought to myself, I want to learn more about the justice system and contribute positively to justice system reform, but I don't know anything about it. So what I should do is work with people who have been through the system, learn from them and empower them to highlight the issues that they see within the justice system and that's something that I think is really important. When it comes to building technology, right now the gatekeepers of tech are kind of a homogenous group and we tend to build tech solutions for the entire world, but actually the people who are best equipped to solve problems are those who have experienced them and so that's why I decided to start The Code Cooperative. >> Nice. Alex, you're talking here, you've got an interesting titled session, I'll make sure I get it right, Shaving My Head Made Me a Better Programmer. If I can connect that to the rest of the DockerCon, maybe, I mean, Docker has been very good at their whole history about developer experience, making things easier for people and I think sometimes people don't realize not only when you make things easier, you actually can bring in new audiences. Kids, prisoners, right, are able to use today's technology where 30, 40 years ago they wouldn't have had access to it because it's easier, it's more powerful, it's more ubiquitous. But sometimes we get stuck in old tropes and so I'd love for you to kind of talk a little about your talk and kind of, what you're going to be talking about here at the show. >> Sure, yes. So, my talk is called Shaving My Head Made Me a Better Programmer and it's a little bit of a misleading title, but basically it's the story of my journey though the tech industry as a minority woman. So I studied computer science and I've been a software engineer for my entire career and yet, I've encountered a lot of challenges because of my gender, because of how I present to the world and when I shaved my head, a lot of those challenges kind of disappeared because I wasn't perceived as feminine anymore and so when I realized that tech isn't the meritocracy that I thought it was, I kind of started on this new quest to make tech as diverse and inclusive as possible so that people from all backgrounds, all genders can learn to code and write code happily and safely and it's just the story of how that happened and the lessons I've learned and some tips on how to make organizations more inclusive because that's the bulk of my work now. >> So you were a C.S. major in New York? >> Yes. >> So were you always interested in STEM as a kid or was it something that you got into when you were in college? What was that sort of age that you found it really exciting and said, no matter what, even if there's very few women here, I love this, I want to do this? >> That's a great question. So I am originally from France, actually. And when I was growing up there was really little computer science education in schools, but I really wanted to be an astronaut when I got to college so I joined the engineering program at my school and I'd never coded at that point, but one of the requirements was an intro to programming class in Python. So I took it and I fell in love with it immediately and I was like, I'm majoring in computer science, this is so cool, this is the coolest thing I've ever done and as I entered the computer science world I realized, oh, there's not that many women here and actually, I'm treated very differently. So, I fell in love with it and then because I love it so much I just kind of powered through. >> Your passion is very palpable, so at any point did you feel, sort of, out of place? Going, I'm one of the only females here, or did you say, I don't care, I like this. >> Yeah, it's both. I mean, you feel out of place when there's very few people who look like you in the room. Even if you don't want to feel out of place, even if you try to pretend that's not the case, you can't help but feel that and when I was starting out and throughout my career, people didn't necessarily want to work with me, didn't believe I was a good programmer, even though I was at the top of all my classes and so even though I tried to make the most out of my experience, I couldn't really escape the stigma attached to my gender in this field. >> Alex, we're at an interesting part of our culture now, I suppose, especially online. On one hand, social media has elevated a lot of folks' voices that would not have been heard otherwise because of gatekeepers. On the other hand, we have our current online discourse, which is kind of, not very pleasant sometimes. So I am interested both kind of how you're navigating that online and then maybe as a followup, then as you work with companies, how you're working with them and what you're telling them, but in terms of online, I love Twitter and yet it frustrates me. Facebook as well, et cetera. How do you navigate that online yourself? >> That's a great question. Honestly, I have been kind of retreating from social media. I haven't really experienced too many negative interactions on social media because I'm not really a big presence there. I did kind of have a really bad experience once during a Grace Hopper conference. I tweeted something during the Male Allied panel of like, 2015, or something and that got picked up by some GamerGate writers and then a lot of people started tweeting negative things at me, but that's kind of the extent of my negative experiences online. I do think that, as you say, social media has allowed for uplifting of voices that were previously unheard, has allowed for activism to organize. There's so many positive things that come from social media and also it has a really nefarious affect on people and I think that something needs to change in terms of how these companies build their software. It needs to be safer for all people and also needs to be built more ethically. Less trying to manipulate our psyches. >> That's, I think, super important. Luckily at least that's a conversation now, right Lisa? That at least Facebook, I think eventually as a society we'll, I hope, we'll get through this and figure this out, but I don't feel like we're particularly literate with social at this point. But I did want to ask about your work with companies. You said you do talk with some companies about diversity and things like that, is there any either signs that folks are getting it right or things that you start off with as you're working, if someone asks, how do we become a more diverse workforce? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I can't really point to any companies that, I say, are doing amazing. There are some companies where I know folks are very happy. Slack is one of them, thoughtbot is another one of them. I'll say Gakko, but a few tips I generally give organizations is that you need to work to understand the problem. Why is there a lack of diversity in tech? Why is your team not diverse? Then you need to measure your data. You can't make a positive change if you don't know how much you're changing, right? So gather diversity data on your team, not just in terms of who's there, but who's in a leadership role. Who gets promoted? Who gets fired? Who's a manager? And then you need to commit. That's, I think, the place where a lot of people struggle is there's a lot of candidates who fit this, kind of, homogenous image of what a programmer is and so it can be easy sometimes to be like, well we need to hire someone right now so let's just hire this person. But in order to actually make a change you need to commit and you need to say I'm not going to compromise on the goals that we've set. >> You're absolutely right, that commitment word is exactly what's needed to drive that accountability to hold organizations up to that. I was just at VMware a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto at the Women Transforming Technology event and we had a whole day of all talking with females in tech, which I always loved to do and theCUBE is very passionate about supporting that. The cultural change is imperative. We talk about digital transformation at every event and there's the CIO that says, hey we have to change the culture here to transform digitally, but also to start moving those numbers from, what, less than 25% of tech roles are held by women. The culture has to change. It seems like you're in a position, potentially, to actually influence the culture at these companies that you talk to about opening their eyes to commit. Does that excite you from within? >> Yes, I do talk to a lot of organizations about this, but I think the work that I do that might actually tip the scale is, basically, the education programs that I run in New York. All of my classrooms reflect the diversity of New York, both in terms of student and teacher bodies. So all of my students learn in an environment that is extremely diverse. They learn from teachers who look like them and I wish I learned to code in that way. Another important thing we teach our students is how to code as an ethical endeavor. So we teach our students to measure the ethical ramifications of their decisions when they build software so that hopefully the technologists of tomorrow, the CTO's of tomorrow they build code in a way that is best for humanity. They build code with empathy. >> Goin' back to your day job. You're working with kids. We talked about getting through social media, cultural change. Its going to depend on the next generation. So Alex, are the kids alright? Are they gonna save us? >> The kids are pretty alright. I mean, so my classroom is basically coding meets social entrepreneurship so all of our kids build an app that solves a problem they've identified in their communities and these kids are just coming up with the most beautiful solutions, like, more brilliant than any adult that I've met. I feel good about the future. >> Well, it's key to get those different perspectives and when you were saying, they're having the opportunity to code and create apps that are relevant to them that's where you can really ignite that passion. >> Exactly, that's so important >> It is important because when you're passionate about something, and we saw that on stage today with a lot of the Docker folks and Microsoft and McKesson, when you're passionate about something and really making a change, you can feel it. So it's good to hear that we're going in the right direction. Also, we're in this age, you talked about ethics, where it's essential. Because technology, we see a lot of examples where tech is not used for good and there's world leaders getting some of the leaders of tech companies together saying, I'm challenging you, make tech for good because we're seeing too much of the negative right now. How does that influence, whether it's the breaches at Equifax, or, there was a breach recently at MyHeritage, the DNA testing companies, to Cambridge Analytica. How do you see the kids, the young kids respond to that, going, that's a really poor use of tech. Are they aware of that? >> I think some kids are and in our classroom we spend some time talking about, we have discussions about, ethics of software. So that's something that's very important to us. But largely, most classrooms in the United States, no, I mean computer science education is not a standard in most classrooms in the US. In New York state, only 1% of high schoolers actually have access to any kind of computer science education and so most kids, they might hear tid bits from the T.V. or social media or something, but they're not necessarily informed enough to make one, good decisions as consumers and two, good decisions as potential technologists. So that's something that we are trying to spread and I hope other folks are also trying to work on. >> Another thing that I think is shocking is when we were at the Women Transforming Technology event just a few weeks ago at VMware in Palo Alto, they just announced with Stanford, Stanford is investing 15 million dollars into their gender research. VMware and Stanford wanting to look at what are the barriers for women in tech and minorities in tech and starting to dissolve some of those barriers. One of the things they actually had in their press release announcing this big 15 million dollar investment from VMware and Stanford is a Mckinsey report that said 20%, sorry, enterprise organizations that have females in management positions, probably executive management positions, didn't specify positions, are 20% more profitable. You just think, the numbers are saying when you have more thought diversity, you're actually going to be a more profitable organization, but I think to your point earlier, Alex, there has to be a commitment and there has to be a group within an organization that stands accountable. >> Absolutely. >> So we are thankful for you. (Alex laughs) for donating some of your time today to tell us what you're doing, it's good to hear the next generation, John, I think they got our backs. >> Alright, that's good. >> And Alex, have a great time with your very provocative session this afternoon. >> Thank you. >> We thank you so much for your time and it's really cool to hear how you're using your passion for tech for good. >> Thank you so much, it was great to be here. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. From San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with out next guest. (upbeat music)

>> From Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering SAP SAPPHIRE NOW 2018 Brought to you by NetApp. >> Welcome to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend and we are in Orlando at SAP SAPPHIRE 2018. This is an enormous event, 16 football fields. American football fields is the size of this space. Incredible, we're welcoming back to theCUBE, one of our distinguished alumni. >> Thank you. >> Uddhav Gupta you are the global vice-president and GM of the SAP App Center, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Yes, thank you so much, thank you for having me. And isn't this a lovely event? >> It's amazing. >> It is. >> So much energy and excitement yesterday during Bill McDermott's keynote. He talked about SAP, 46 years old now, has 398,000 customers and is responsible for 77% you said of the world's transactions. >> Yes, yes. >> Unreal. >> And you know the best part about this is we got 77% of the transactions, and if you walk around and ask people about SAP, they don't even know SAP, right? It's funny, I'm from the Bay Area and the first time people started taking SAP and acknowledging the brand of SAP was when they start to see SAP Center. Because that's home. >> The shark tank. >> To the Sharks. >> Yup. >> And they're like, oh, that was the first time. And then the second time we put a building out. We bought SuccessFactors and we got a SuccessFactors building by the airport and then, "Oh yeah we know SAP from the building next to the airport." But now people are starting to becoming really serious of associating themselves with the brand because now they started understanding what a crucial role SAP plays in their lives, right? If SAP doesn't do what it does, the entire supply chain for many large enterprises stops, right? Which means, your beverages don't come, and your food doesn't come in, nothing, right? Your lines are stopped. >> Yeah, we're with you. Your medicine doesn't come. >> Right. >> It is just. >> Yes. >> Well you guys have had Bill McDermott has talked about for a while about, we wanna become one of the world's top 10 most valuable brands but for invisible software you know you talk about, you want to be up there with the Apples and we can engage and touch with so many of these brands, and people probably don't know, a lot of people. >> Yes. >> That they are using SAP that's driving so many businesses, industries, and you guys have done a very good job of articulating your brand value through the voices of your customers who are transforming industries, they're saving lives, and also your partner ecosystem. So talk to us about the partner ecosystem and how they're really enabling partners like NetApp. What you're doing with the App Center to really enable SAP's growth and transformation through your partner ecosystem. >> Absolutely, so one of the good things is, if you look at the different transformations that the software industry has gone and cloud is one big one, right? And right now, with the cloud that one day we've regarded is the Cloud is a completely different dynamics of software. It's a very closed environment, the software itself so not everybody can actually basically just go ahead and deploy anything within the software itself, right? So that's created a huge economy of ecosystem for us where we've got partners that are building Sas Solutions, that extend our core business products. We got partners that are building content services that can actually be consumed within our business products. Similarly, SAP has made this transition from being more of a software applications company to actually being a platform company and now taking it into the cloud. So we've got a whole new generation of partners that we kind of started working with that provide technology services into the platform, right? And that's why we work with partners like NetApp. We work with partners like (mumbles). We works with partners, even SIs. They're starting to build a whole bunch of repeatable solutions, right? So in order to bring all these innovations that are happening around the SAP ecosystem, in the hands of our customers, like NetApp is a customer of SAP, too. How do we bring that easily into their hands so they can discover these products? They can try the products, they can buy these products. And then they can manage these products. And that's the whole idea of the App Center. >> And this has only been around for a year. In fact, you just celebrated your first birthday. >> Exactly. >> But a tremendous volume of apps that are already available. >> Yes, it's amazing. >> For try and buy. >> The ecosystem has really embraced us, they put their hands open, right? So within a year we've got 1100 partners that are on the App Center. We've got 1500 solutions that are on the App Center. And we are growing like crazy, right? We've got amazing endorsements from partners and donor. We've got amazing endorsement from customers. Some customers have come and done repeated purchases on the App Center within a month, right? The number of trials we're executing for partners is huge. On the whole, it's doing really well. >> So let's talk about the range of applications. I know when I think of App Center I think of App Center on my phone. >> Yes. >> And I can go and get something as silly as a flashlight or, in my case, as life-changing as my running app that keeps track of my fitness over the course of several years and I have great data to mine from that. What types of applications and industries, what industries do they serve in the App Center? >> So the App Center is really made for businesses. >> Right. >> So definitely we don't have Candy Crush there, right? (everyone laughs) >> Don't ask them. >> I don't know if that's a good thing. >> Oh, that's good, right, but you have a bunch of fun application for enterprises, right? Which allow them to get a better insight in how the company is operating. And then we have, to give you analogy to your fitness application that gives you a better idea of how your body works. We've got application that basically do the same thing for enterprises, right? So let me give you an example. We've got a major SI that actually has built an audit and compliance application for HR, right? So I can actually tell you, within your organizations what's your diversity ratio, what's your compliance ratio, how are people being paid, gender equality and gender pay, equal pay is a big topic that many CIOs are looking at. It kind of helps on those kinds of areas, right? Then we've got apps or solutions in there that basically deal with helping customers do better sales, right? We have apps in there that basically help provide you tools that can better monitor your platforms, right? Tools that help you migrate. All these things are available on the App Center. >> I'm curious from a differentiation standpoint, SAP has been very vocal about wanting, challenging the old legacy CRM. >> Yes. >> And wanting to be number one. Against their, you know, the (mumbles) competitors. How does the App Center and how you've enabled it so quickly and with such diversity of apps, how does this differentiate SAP? >> Absolutely, so we've owned the back office for a very long time now, right? So now it's time for us to basically get in front of the end users and get into the daily work that they do. It's very important for us to also own different offers. That's a whole big initiative, you heard with C4, right? To enable that, we've got cloud platform, right? And that's the other biggest piece of the puzzle, right? Now when you add these two things up, you don't basically, when you look at customers, the biggest thing for them is time to value, right? The whole concept of the bill versus buy is kind of starting to fade and the customer like, "Here's my problem, is there a solution out of the box "that can actually solve my problem?" If he gets a 100%, great, if he gets 90%, okay. If he gets 80%, I'll take it and then I'll improvise on it. And that's exactly what the App Center does. It gives you an out of the box solution from our ecosystem. So you can get started with it, and then you can collaborate with the ecosystem, to either improvise on it or take a step back and say, "Okay, now we've plugged the hole, now let's find "a more detailed solution to actually build "a more scalable outcome out of it." >> So let's talk about licensing flexibility from apps and App Center. One how do customers pay for. >> Yes. >> Their apps in the App Center? And then two, what are the licensing options for both partners and customers, for those individual apps? >> So the beauty of the apps and then the way we started up is the transaction is directly happening between the partners and the customers. So the partners can actually price their applications the way they wanted, right? So some partners that are basically doing content services are doing it by based on utilization, right? So you actually use this many number of API calls, that's how it's priced. Some of the others are doing SAS applications and they are pricing it by users. So the partners have complete flexibility of pricing and packaging the way they want. Also because we're actually using the App Center to sell to enterprises, it's very unlikely that somebody's gonna go ahead and say, "Oh, he has a gold, bronze, and silver package, "I'm just gonna pick one of them." On the App Center you can actually go ahead and custom package or create custom packages with tailored customs and conditions that are specific to that customer. And the customer can then buy it, right? So we've kind of thought of this from an enterprise standpoint. And that's the beauty, right? When you work with partners like NetApp, that is important for them, right? NetApp is a partner that basically goes ahead and works with some of the largest businesses, right? It's important for them to have the flexibility to go ahead and do the business with them digitally. >> So I'm curious. At every event we talk about digital transformation, right? It's table stakes these days. But at SAPPHIRE 2018 there's been a lot of discussion around the intelligent enterprise. >> Yes. >> I'm curious how this one year old App Center that SAP has built and that you're managing, how are you using the data that you're getting about the types of apps that are being developed and consumed, how are you utilizing that data to transform SAP? >> Absolutely, if you think of the intelligent enterprise, we're doing everything that we can from the platform side. But what's the point of being intelligent if you don't apply your intelligence somewhere, right? And that's exactly. >> You're like my mother. >> (laughs) And that's what we're trying to do with their apps, right? So while the platform is intelligent. It can do a lot of stuff. The apps are the one that will help you derive the value from the platform. And that's where the App Center is super important and the apps that are on the App Center support the product. That's the role within the apps in the place for the intelligent enterprise. >> So Bill McDermott also talked about trust and the trust is the new currency. When you put forth something like the SAP App Center, you're kind of co-signing that, you know what, these apps, these are partners, and this is a partner exchange. Can you talk to the value to the enterprise of wanting to something like a App Center to purchase applications? >> Oh, trust is a big thing, right? These days, I mean, you. Enterprises come to SAP because they know SAP is such a trusted brand. So when we did the App Center we also made sure that every app that goes on the App Center is actually totally validated by an integration and certification center team, right? So you don't find anything on the App Center that has not gone through a vetting process. The second thing you don't know show that on the app center you find apps that are relevant to your SAP landscape and that's not a Shopify, right? You're not going and selling something that has no relevance to the enterprise. The third thing that we've done, and very important for customers is we've actually built workflows that allows them to still have the same comfort of procuring a software but only doing it digitally. So, for example, a customer may say, "Look, not every user "in my company is allowed to buy apps." But if a user is interested in buying an app, he should be able to request purchase, and then somebody who's entitled in the company to go through contracts and negotiate on behalf of the company can actually negotiate it, and then the purchase happens. So we will employ trust at every level of the App Center. >> Security is such a hot topic these days, right? I mean, there's been so many public breaches of corporate data, there's just one again the other day with, I think it was MyDNA or MyHeritage. >> Yes. >> And that kind of opportunity for people to submit a cheek sample and get their DNA is so popular. That's a lot of personal information. So the security woven into the fabric of that is all key. >> Absolutely. >> So you mentioned the number of partners and the number of apps. I think you said thousand partners. >> A thousand partners and 1500 apps. >> 1500 apps in the first year. >> In the first year. >> What are you excited about for the next year? What do you think we're gonna be talking about next SAPPHIRE? >> I think the growth in the number of apps and partners that are gonna come over, it's gonna be a hockey stick event we're completely looking forward to that. But what's gonna be interesting is, as these apps come by, and you've pointed it out, security is one topic, but GDPR compliance is another big one. So one of the things that we've been working with a lot of these partners is to basically become more and more GDPR compliant. Because some of these apps are dealing with HR data. Some of these apps are gonna start dealing with customer data and they have to be GDPR compliant. So that's what we're working on with them and we'll see more and more of those kind of things happen. But the second big thing that we're looking forward is going beyond the apps, right? We call it the App Center, we could call it Solution Center, we could call it anything. But the idea is you gonna have apps, but you're also gonna have vendors like NetApp being able to digitally sell the products to our end customers, right? Somebody bought HANA, they need a HANA appliance, with an adapt storage, that's possible on the App Center. Or some other tools, somebody's existing NetApp customer managing really large SAP landscapes. And they can buy tools that will basically help them manage the NetApp landscape, right? Or SAP landscape running a NetApp gear. So those are kinds of things that I'm looking forward to actually coming into the App Center. The third thing is sensors. People are building IoT Scenarios and we are having tons of partners basically certify sensors against our IoT technology. How about we bring those into the App Center, right? So it's gonna be a huge and beautiful portfolio of solutions. >> Practical question before we let you go is. Simple concept 'cause my mind is working and I come from a traditional SAP shop. So I'm thinking, what interesting things have you seen customers do with SRM and the App Center. I mean, it seems like, App Center, another supplier for SRM should be some integrations? Am I making an assumption? What are some of, as we look at, or even App Center and someone that has SAP core products, what are some of the integration for them? >> Oh, you hit the nail, right? What some of the customers are coming back to us and asking is, can you actually do an App Center specifically for my enterprise, right? Where I as a user can basically go, curate a whole bunch of apps that I've kind of looked at the terms and conditions or have met certain standards, etcetera. And accept the terms of conditions for those products right? Accept those products, negotiate the price, or whatever they do. And then make that open to all of my users of their ecosystem, right? So that way, anybody in that scenario can actually go purchase an app and start using it in production. >> And then I have all of my work full from SRM to approve the purchase of the app. >> Exactly, so it kind of ties in very neatly into that. >> So your 18th SAPPHIRE. >> Yes. >> What are some of the key takeaways that you're gonna go back to the Bay Area with? >> You know, the beauty is every SAPPHIRE keeps growing bigger and bigger and the questions every three, four year we've done a new transformation, right? Last year when I come to this conference, people were still kind of unaware and not really ready to embrace the cloud in an enterprise base. This year, I didn't hear one customer say, "Should we go to the cloud?" Everybody like, "We are on the cloud, how can you help us?" How can SAP and customers and partners like NetApp actually help us get there? And that's a refreshing feel, right? Because now we can talk to them about all the grand plans that we have for them. Prior we were basically still selling them on the concept. Now we're actually walking them and talking to them about how they embrace the cool stuff that we're doing. >> Awesome. >> So it's refreshing. >> It is cool stuff. >> It is. >> Uddhav, thanks so much for stopping by theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Talking with Keith and me about what you guys are doing with the App Center and happy first birthday again. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Thank you for watching theCUBE. Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend at SAP SAPPHIRE 2018. Thanks for watching.