(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeffrey Frick with theCUBE. We are getting through the COVID crisis. It continues and impacting the summer. I can't believe the summer's almost over, but there's a whole lot of things going on in terms of privacy and contact tracing and this kind of this feeling that there's this conflict between kind of personal identification and your personal privacy versus the public good around things like contact tracing. And I was in a session last week with two really fantastic experts. I wanted to bring them on the show and we're really excited to have back for I don't even know how many times Michelle has been on Michelle Dennedy, She is the former chief privacy officer at Cisco and now she's running the CEO of Identity, Michelle great to see you. >> Good to see you always Jeff >> Yeah and for the first time Dr. Ann Cavoukian and she is the executive director Global Privacy & Security By Design Center. Joining us from Toronto, worked with the government and is not short on opinions about privacy. (laughing) Ann good to see you. >> Hi Jeff thank you >> Yes, so let's jump into it cause I think one of the fundamental issues that we keep hearing is this zero-sum game. And I know and it's a big topic for you that there seems to be this trade off this either or and specifically let's just go to contact tracing. Cause that's a hot topic right now with COVID. I hear that it's like you're telling everybody where I'm going and you're sharing that with all these other people. How is this even a conversation and where do I get to choose whether I want to participate or not? >> You can't have people traced and tracked and surveil. You simply can't have it and it can't be an either or win lose model. You have to get rid of that data. Zero-sum game where only one person can win and the other one loses and it sums to a total of zero. Get rid of that, that's so yesterday. You have to have both groups winning positive sum. Meaning yes, you need public health and public safety and you need privacy. It's not one versus the other. We can do both and that's what we insist upon. So the contact term tracing app that was developed in Canada was based on the Apple Google framework, which is actually called exposure notification. It's totally privacy protective individuals choose to voluntarily download this app. And no personal information is collected whatsoever. No names, no geolocation data, nothing. It's simply notifies you. If you've been exposed to someone who is COVID-19 positive, and then you can decide on what action you wish to take. Do you want to go get tested? Do you want to go to your family doctor, whatever the decision lies with you, you have total control and that's what privacy is all about. >> Jeffrey: But what about the person who was sick? Who's feeding the top into that process and is the sick person that you're no notifying they obviously their personal information is part of that transaction. >> what the COVID alerts that we developed based on the Apple Google framework. It builds on manual contact tracing, which also take place the two to compliment each other. So the manual contact tracing is when individuals go get to get tested and they're tested as positive. So healthcare nurses will speak to that individual and say, please tell us who you've been in contact with recently, family, friends, et cetera. So the two work together and by working together, we will combat this in a much more effective manner. >> Jeffrey: So shifting over to you Michelle, you know, there's PIN and a lot of conversations all the time about personal identifiable information but right. But then medical has this whole nother class of kind of privacy restrictions and level of care. And I find it really interesting that on one hand, you know, we were trying to do the contract tracing on another hand if you know, my wife works in a public school. If they find out that one of the kids in this class has been exposed to COVID somehow they can't necessarily tell the teacher because of HIPAA restriction. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on this kind of crossover between privacy and health information when it gets into this kind of public crisis and this inherent conflict for the public right to know and should the teacher be able to be told and it's not a really clean line with a simple answer, I don't think. >> No and Jeff, and you're also layering, you know, when you're talking about student data, you layering another layer of legal restriction. And I think what you're putting your thumb on is something that's really critical. When you talk about privacy engineering, privacy by design and ethics engineering. You can't simply start with the legal premise. So is it lawful to share HIPAA covered data. A child telling mommy I don't feel well not HIPAA covered. A child seeing a doctor for medical services and finding some sort of infection or illness covered, right? So figuring out the origin of the exact same zero one. Am I ill or not, all depends on context. So you have to first figure out, first of all let's tackle the moral issues. Have we decided that it is a moral imperative to expose certain types of data. And I separate that from ethics intentionally and with apologies to true ethicists. The moral imperative is sort of the things we find are so wrong. We don't want a list of kids who are sick or conversely once the tipping point goes the list of kids who are well. So then they are called out that's the moral choice. The ethical choice is just because you can should you, and that's a much longer conversation. Then you get to the legal imperative. Are you allowed to based on the past mistakes that we made. That's what every piece of litigation or legislation is particularly in a common law construct in the US. It's very important to understand that civil law countries like the European theater. They try to prospectively legislate for things that might go wrong. The construct is thinner in a common law economy where you do, you use test cases in the courts of law. That's why we are such a litigious society has its own baggage. But you have to now look at is that legal structure attempting to cover past harms that are so bad that we've decided as a society to punish them, is this a preventative law? And then you finally get to what I say is stage four for every evaluation is isn't viable, are the protections that you have to put on top of these restrictions. So dire that they either cannot be maintained because of culture process or cash or it just doesn't make sense anymore. So does it, is it better to just feel someone's forehead for illness rather than giving a blood assay, having it sent away for three weeks and then maybe blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. >> Right. >> You have to look at this as a system problem solving issue. >> So I want to look at it in the context of, again kind of this increased level of politicization and or, you know, kind of exposure outside of what's pretty closed. And I want to bring up AIDS and the porn industry very frankly right? Where people behaving in the behavior of the business risk a life threatening disease of which I still don't think it as a virus. So you know why, cause suddenly, you know, we can track for that and that's okay to track for that. And there's a legitimate reason to versus all of the other potential medical conditions that I may or may not have that are not necessarily brought to bear within coming to work. And we might be seeing this very soon. As you said, if people are wanting our temperatures, as we come in the door to check for symptoms. How does that play with privacy and healthcare? It's still fascinates me that certain things is kind of pop out into their own little bucket of regulation. I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts on that Ann. >> You know, whenever you make it privacy versus fill in the blank, especially in the context of healthcare. You end up turning it to a lose lose as opposed to even a win lose. Because you will have fewer people wanting to allow themselves to be tested, to be brought forward for fear of where that information may land. If it lands in the hands of your employer for example or your whoever owns your house if you're in renting, et cetera. It creates enormous problems. So regardless of what you may think of the benefits of that model. History has shown that it doesn't work well that people end up shying away from being tested or seeking treatment or any of those things. Even now with the contact tracing apps that have been developed. If you look globally the contact tracing apps for COVID-19. They have failed the ones that identify individuals in the UK, in Australia, in Western Canada that's how it started out. And they've completely dropped them because they don't work. People shy away from them. They don't use them. So they've gotten rid of that. They've replaced it with the, an app based on the Apple Google framework, which is the one that protects privacy and will encourage people to come forward and seek to be tested. If there's a problem in Germany. Germany is one of the largest privacy data protection countries in the world. Their privacy people are highly trusted in Germany. Germany based their app on the Apple Google framework. About a month ago they released it. And within 24 hours they had 6.5 million people download the app. >> Right. >> Because there is such trust there unlike the rest of the world where there's very little trust and we have to be very careful of the trust deficit. Because we want to encourage people to seek out these apps so they can attempt to be tested if there's a problem, but they're not going to use them. They're just going to shy away from them. If there is such a problem. And in fact I'll never forget. I did an interview about a month ago, three weeks ago in the US on a major major radio station that has like 54 million people followers. And I was telling them about the COVID alert the Canadian contact tracing app, actually it's called exposure notification app, which was built on the Apple Google framework. And people in hoard said they wouldn't trust anyone with it in the US. They just wouldn't trust it. So you see there's such a trust deficit. That's what we have to be careful to avoid. >> So I want to hold on the trust for just a second, but I want to go back to you Michelle and talk about the lessons that we can learn post 9/11. So the other thing right and keep going back to this over and over. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not a zero-sum game and yet that's the way it's often positioned as a way to break down existing barriers. So if you go back to 9/11 probably the highest profile thing being the Patriot Act, you know, where laws are put in place to protect us from terrorism that are going to do things that were not normally allowed to be done. I bet without checking real exhaustively that most of those things are still in place. You know, cause a lot of times laws are written. They don't go away for a long time. What can we learn from what happened after 9/11 and the Patriot Act and what should be really scared of, or careful of or wary of using that as a framework for what's happening now around COVID and privacy. >> It's a perfect, it's not even an analogy because we're feeling the shadows of the Patriot Act. Even now today, we had an agreement from the United States with the European community until recently called the Privacy Shield. And it was basically if companies and organizations that were, that fell under the Federal Trade Commissions jurisdiction, there's a bit of layering legal process here. But if they did and they agreed to supply enough protection to data about people who were present in the European Union to the same or better level than the Europeans would. Then that information could pass through this Privacy Shield unencumbered to and from the United States. That was challenged and taken down. I don't know if it's a month ago or if it's still March it's COVID time, but very recently on basis that the US government can overly and some would say indifferent nations, improperly look at European data based on some of these Patriot Act, FISA courts and other intrusive mechanisms that absolutely do apply if we were under the jurisdiction of the United States. So now companies and private actors are in the position of having to somehow prove that they will mechanize their systems and their processes to be immune from their own government intrusion before they can do digital trade with other parts of the world. We haven't yet seen the commercial disruption that will take place. So the unintended consequence of saying rather than owning the answers or the observations and the intelligence that we got out of the actual 9/11 report, which said we had the information we needed. We did not share enough between the agencies and we didn't have the decision making activity and will to take action in that particular instance. Rather than sticking to that knowledge. Instead we stuck to the Patriot Act, which was all but I believe to Congress people. When I mean, you see the hot mess. That is the US right now. When everyone but two people in the room vote for something on the quick. There's probably some sort of a psychological gun to your head. That's probably well thought out thing. We fight each other. That's part of being an American dammit. So I think having these laws that say, you've got to have this one solution because the boogeyman is coming or COVID is coming or terrorists or child pornographers are coming. There's not one solution. So you really have to break this down into an engineering problem and I don't mean technology when I say engineering. I mean looking at the culture, how much trust do you have? Who is the trusted entity? Do we trust Microsoft more than we trust the US government right now? Maybe that might be your contact. How you're going to build people, process and technology not to avoid a bad thing, but to achieve a positive objective because if you're not achieving that positive objective of understanding that safe to move about without masks on, for example, stop, just stop. >> Right, right. My favorite analogy Jeff, and I think I've said this to you in the past is we don't sit around and debate the merits of viscosity of water to protect concrete holes. We have to make sure that when you lead them to the concrete hole, there's enough water in the hole. No, you're building a swimming pool. What kind of a swimming pool do you want? Is it commercial, Is it toddlers? Is it (indistinct), then you build in correlation, protection and da da da da. But if you start looking at every problem as how to avoid hitting a concrete hole. You're really going to miss the opportunity to build and solve the problem that you want and avoid the risk that you do not want. >> Right right, and I want to go back to you on the trust thing. You got an interesting competent in that other show, talking about working for the government and not working directly for the people are voted in power, but for the kind of the larger bureaucracy and agency. I mean, the Edelman Trust Barometer is really interesting. They come out every year. I think it's their 20th year. And they break down kind of like media, government and business. And who do you trust and who do you not trust? What what's so fascinating about the time we're in today is even within the government, the direction that's coming out is completely diametrically opposed oftentimes between the Fed, the state and the local. So what does kind of this breakdown of trust when you're getting two different opinions from the same basic kind of authority due to people's ability or desire to want to participate and actually share the stuff that maybe or maybe not might get reshared. >> It leaves you with no confidence. Basically, you can't take confidence in any of this. And when I was privacy commissioner. I served for three terms, each term that was a different government, different political power in place. And before they had become the government, they were all for privacy and data protection believed in and all that. And then once they became the government all that changed and all of a sudden they wanted to control everyone's information and they wanted to be in power. No, I don't trust government. You know, people often point to the private sector as being the group you should distrust in terms of privacy. I say no, not at all. To me far worse is actually the government because everyone thinks they're there to do good job and trust them. You can't trust. You have to always look under the hood. I always say trust but verify. So unfortunately we have to be vigilant in terms of the protections we seek for privacy both with private sector and with the government, especially with the government and different levels of government. We need to ensure that people's privacy remains intact. It's preserved now and well into the future. You can't give up on it because there's some emergency a pandemic, a terrorist incident whatever of course we have to address those issues. But you have to insist upon people's privacy being preserved. Privacy forms the foundation of our freedom. You cannot have free and open societies without a solid foundation of privacy. So I'm just encouraging everyone. Don't take anything at face value, just because the government tells you something. It doesn't mean it's so always look under the hood and let us ensure the privacy is strongly protected. See emergencies come and go. The pandemic will end. What cannot end is our privacy and our freedom. >> So this is a little dark in here, but we're going to lighten it up a little bit because there's, as Michelle said, you know, if you think about building a pool versus putting up filling a hole, you know, you can take proactive steps. And there's a lot of conversation about proactive steps and I pulled Ann your thing Privacy by Design, The 7 Foundational Principles. I have the guys pull up a slide. But I think what's really interesting here is, is you're very, very specific prescriptive, proactive, right? Proactive, not reactive. Privacy is the default setting. You know, don't have to read the ULAs and I'm not going to read the, all the words we'll share it. People can find it. But what I wanted to focus on is there is an opportunity to get ahead of the curve, but you just have to be a little bit more thoughtful. >> That's right, and Privacy By Design it's a model of prevention, much like a medical model of prevention where you try to prevent the harms from arising, not just deal with them after the facts through regulatory compliance. Of course we have privacy laws and that's very important, but they usually kick in after there's been a data breach or privacy infraction. So when I was privacy commissioner obviously those laws were intact and we had to follow them, but I wanted something better. I wanted to prevent the privacy harms from arising, just like a medical model of prevention. So that's a Privacy By Design is intended to do is instantiate, embed much needed privacy protective measures into your policies, into your procedures bake it into the code so that it has a constant presence and can prevent the harms from arising. >> Jeffrey: Right right. One of the things I know you love to talk about Michelle is compliance, right? And is compliance enough. I know you like to talk about the law. And I think one of the topics that came up on your guys' prior conversation is, you know, will there be a national law, right? GDPR went through on the European side last year, the California Protection Act. A lot of people think that might become the model for more of a national type of rule. But I tell you, when you watch some of the hearings in DC, you know, I'm sure 90% of these people still print their emails and have their staff hand them to them. I mean, it's really scary that said, you know, regulation always does kind of lag probably when it needs to be put in place because people maybe abuse or go places they shouldn't go. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on where you think legislation is going to going and how should people kind of see that kind of playing out over the next several years, I guess. >> Yeah, it's such a good question Jeff. And it's like, you know, I think even the guys in Vegas are having trouble with setting the high laws on this. Cameron said in I think it was December of 2019, which was like 15 years ago now that in the first quarter of 2020, we would see a federal law. And I participated in a hearing at the Senate banking committee, again, November, October and in the before times. I'm talking about the same thing and here we are. Will we have a comprehensive, reasonable, privacy law in the United States before the end of this president's term. No, we will not. I can say that with just such faith and fidelity. (laughing) But what does that mean? And I think Katie Porter who I'm starting to just love, she's the Congresswoman who's famous for pulling on her white board and just saying, stop fudging the numbers. Let's talk about the numbers. There's about a, what she calls the 20% legislative flip phone a caucus. So there are 20% or more on both sides of the aisle of people in the US who are in the position of writing our laws. who are still on flip phones and aren't using smart phones and other kinds of technologies. There's a generation gap. And as much as I can kind of chuckle at that a little bit and wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't that cute. Because you know, my dad, as you know, is very very technical and he's a senior citizen. This is hard. I hope he doesn't see that but... (laughing) But then it's not old versus young. It's not let's get a whole new group and crop and start over again. What it is instead and this is, you know, as my constant tome sort of anti compliance. I'm not anti compliance. You got to put your underwear on before your pants or it's just really hard. (laughing) And I would love to see anyone who is capable of putting their underwater on afterwards. After you've made the decision of following the process. That is so basic. It comes down to, do you want the data that describes or is donated or observed about human beings. Whether it's performance of your employees. People you would love to entice onto your show to be a guest. People you'd like to listen and consume your content. People you want to meet. People you want to marry. Private data as Ann says, does the form the foundation of our freedom, but it also forms the foundation of our commerce. So that compliance, if you have stacked the deck proactively with an ethics that people can understand and agree with and have a choice about and feel like they have some integrity. Then you will start to see the acceleration factor of privacy being something that belongs on your balance sheet. What kind of data is high quality, high nutrition in the right context. And once you've got that, you're in good shape. >> I'm laughing at privacy on the balance sheet. We just had a big conversation about data on the balance sheets. It's a whole, that's a whole another topic. So we can go for days. I have Pages and pages of notes here. But unfortunately I know we've got some time restrictions. And so, and I want to give you the last word as you look forward. You've been in this for a while. You've been in it from the private side, as well as the government side. And you mentioned lots of other scary things, kind of on the horizon. Like the kick of surveillance creep, which there's all kinds of interesting stuff. You know, what advice do you give to citizens. What advice do you give to leaders in the public sector about framing the privacy conversation >> I always want to start by telling them don't frame privacy as a negative. It's not a negative. It's something that can build so much. If you're a business, you can gain a competitive advantage by strongly protecting your customer's privacy because then it will build such loyalty and you'll gain a competitive advantage. You make it work for you. As a government you want your citizens to have faith in the government. You want to encourage them to understand that as a government you respect their privacy. Privacy is highly contextual. It's only the individual who can make determinations relating to the disclosure of his or her personal information. So make sure you build that trust both as a government and as a business, private sector entity and gain from that. It's not a negative at all, make it work for you, make it work for your citizens, for your customers, make it a plus a win win that will give you the best returns. >> Isn't it nice when doing the right thing actually provides better business outcomes too. It's like diversity of opinion and women on boards. And kind of things- >> I love that. we cover these days. >> Well ladies, thank you very very much for your time. I know you've got a hard stop, so I'm going to cut you loose or else we would go for probably another hour and a half, but thank you so much for your time. Thank you for continuing to beat the drum out there and look forward to our next conversation. Hopefully in the not too distant future. >> My pleasure Jeff. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you too. >> All right She's Michelle. >> She's Ann. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. Coming to you today from our Palo Alto studios. It's COVID is still going on. So, there's still no shows, but the good news is we've got the technology we can reach out to the community, and bring them in from far, far away. So today joining us from Virginia across the country is Dave Scott. He is the director of Product Management for Veritas, Dave, great to see you. >> Thanks Jeff, great to be here. >> Absolutely. So let's jump into it. You guys have been about backup and recovery for years and years and years, but oh my goodness, how the landscape continues to evolve between, you know, public cloud and you know, all the things happening with Amazon and Google, and Microsoft. And then now, of course big push for Hybrid. And, you know, we're the workloads, and kind of application centric infrastructure. You guys still got a backup and secure all this things. I wonder if you can give us a little bit of your perspective on, you know, kind of the increasing complexity of the computing environment, has all these different kind of pieces of the puzzle, are kind of gaining traction at the same time. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm on the compliance side of the company. So I'm more on looking after requirements around collection of content preparation for litigation, making sure you're adhering to compliance regulations in different parts of the world. And, I mean that's a constantly evolving space. One of the, so basically the products I look after are Enterprise Vaults, Enterprise Vault.cloud, and eDiscovery platform. And, as you say, I mean, one of the biggest challenges is that customers are starting to move, you know, customers are looking for flexibility in how they deploy our solutions. We've had a product in market with enterprise vault for about 20 years. And so, we have a lot of customers that have a lot of data on premise, and now they're starting, you know, they've got cloud mandates, they want to move that content to the cloud. So we have gotten very aggressive at building out our SaaS, archiving solution, Enterprise Vault.cloud. But we also provide other options. Like if you want to move enterprise vault from your data center on premise, to your tenant in Azure, Amazon, we fully support that. In fact, we're taking advantage of cloud services to make that a much more viable option for our customers. >> So let's get into the regulation and the compliance, 'cause that's a big piece of the motivation beyond just, you know, making sure that the business can recover, that the regulation and compliance thing is huge. You know, the GDPR, which has been around now for a couple of years, California protection act. And I think what I find interesting from your perspective is you have this kind of crazy sea of regulations that are different by country, by industry, by data type, and they're evolving all the time. So, that's got to be a relatively complex little grid you got to keep track of. >> Yeah, it makes the job interesting. But it also is a huge competitive advantage for us. We have a team that researches data privacy regulations around the world, and it's been a competitive advantage in that we can be incredibly nimble in creating a new policy. We had some opportunities come up in Turkey, there's a regulation there that mirrors GDPR called KVKK or KVKK I think they call it locally. And it's, a joke that it's kind of like GDPR, but with jail time for noncompliance. So there's a lot more motivation on the part of an IT department, to make sure they're meeting that requirement. But it has to do with dealing with, you know, data privacy again, and ensuring the safety of the continent. That's proliferating throughout the world. You mentioned California Consumer Privacy Act, many other States are starting to follow what the California Consumer Privacy Act. And I'm sure, it won't be long before we have a data privacy act in the US, that's nationwide instead of at the state level. In other industries that we serve, like the financial services industry. There's, you know, there's always been a lot of regulation around SEC and FINRA in the US, that's spreading to other countries now, you know, MiFID II in the European union has been huge. And that dictates you need to capture all voice conversations, all text conversations, instant messages, everything that goes on between a broker and the end customer, has to be captured, has to be supervised, and has to be maintained on warm storage. So that's a great segment for us as well. That's an area we play very well in. >> So it's interesting. 'Cause in preparing for this, I saw some of the recent announcements around the concept of data supervision. So I think a lot of people are familiar with backup and recovery, and continuity, but specifically data supervision. What does that really mean? How is that different than kind of traditional backup and recovery, and what are some of the really key features or attributes to make that a successful platform? >> Yeah, no, it is really outside of the realm of backup and recovery. Archiving is very different from backup and recovery. And then archiving is about preserving the communication, and being able to monitor that communication, for the purposes of meeting compliance regulations. So, in the case of our solution, Veritas advanced supervision, It sounds a bit big brotherish, if I'm being honest, but it is a requirement for the financial service community that you sample a subset of those communications looking for violations. So you're looking for insider trading, you're looking for money laundering. In some companies, at the HR departments, or even just trying to ensure that their employees are being compliant. And so you may sample a subset of content. But it's absolutely required within the financial services community. And we're starting to see a lot of other industries, you know, leveraging this technology just to ensure compliance with different regulations, or compliance with their own internal policies. Ensuring a safe work place, ensuring that there's not any sexual harassment, or that type of thing going on through office communications. So it is a way of just monitoring your employees communications. >> So it's while I remember when, when people used to talk about messaging, and kind of the generic sense, like I could never understand why, you know, it's an email, it's a text. I mean, little did I know that every single application is now installed on every single device that I have, has a messaging app, you know, has a direct messaging feature. So, I mean the complexity and, and I guess the, the variability in the communication methods, across all these applications and, you know, probably more than half of them, that most of us work on are SaaS as well, really adds a ton of complexity to the challenge that you were just talking about. >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm old. You know, when I started, all of my communications were on a Microsoft mail server, all my files were in the file, you know, the server room down the hall. Now I've got about 20 different ways to communicate on my phone. And, the fragmentation of communication does make that job a lot more, more challenging. You know, now you need to take a voice conversation, convert it to text. With COVID and with, you know, the dawn of telemedicine, or at least the rapid growth, and telemessaging, telemedicine sorry. There is a whole new potential market for this kind of supervision tool. Now you can capture every doctor patient interaction that takes place over Zoom or over a Team's video, transcribe that content, and there's a wealth of value in that conversation. Not only can you tell if the doctor is responding to the patient, if the interaction is positive or negative, is the doctor helping to calm the patient down? Do they have good quality of interaction? That sort of thing. And so there's incredible value in capturing those communications, so you can learn from the... you know learn best practices, I guess. And then, feed that into a broader data lake, and correlate the interaction with patient outcomes, who are your great doctors? who are your, you know, that type of thing. So that's an area that we're very excited about going forward. >> Wow, that's pretty interesting. I never kind of thought that through, because I would have assumed that, you know, kind of most of the calls for this type of data were based on some type of a litigation. You know, it was some type of an ask or a request, that I was going to ask you, now how does that actually work within the context of this sea of data, that you have. Is it usually around a specific individual, who's got some issues and you're kind of looking at their ecosystem of communications, or is it more of a pattern, or is it potentially more of a keyword type of thing that's triggering, You know, kind of this forensics into this tremendous amount of data that's in all these enterprises. >> Yeah, it's a little bit of everything. Like, so first of all, we have the ability to capture a lot of different native content sources. But we also leverage partners to bring in other content sources. We can capture over 80 different content sources, all the, you know, instant messaging, social media, of course email, but even voice communications and video communications. And to answer your question as far as litigation, I mean, it really depends on the incident right? in the past, in the old days, any kind of litigation resulted in a fire drill where you're trying to find every scrap of evidence, every piece of information related to the case. By being a little bit proactive and capturing your email, and your communication streams into immutable storage in an archive, you're ready for that litigation event. And you've already indexed that content, you've already classified that content. So you can find the needle in the haystack. You can find the relevant content to prove your innocence, or at least to comply with the request for information. Now that has also led to solving similar issues for public sector. US federal, with the Freedom of Information Act. They're getting all kinds of requests for right now for COVID related communications. And that could be related to lawsuits. it could be related to just information around how stimulus funds are being spent. And they've got to respond to these requests very, very quickly. Our team came up with a COVID-19 classification policy, where we can actually weed out the communications related to COVID-19. To allow those federal agencies, and even state and local agencies, to quickly respond to those types of requests. So that's been an exciting area for us. And then there's still the SEC requirements to monitor broker dealers and conversations with end users, to ensure they're not doing anything, they shouldn't be doing like insider trading, >> Right. Which is so different, than kind of a post event, you know, kind of forensics investigation, and then collecting that data. So I'm curious, you know, how often are you having to update policies and update, you know, kind of the sniffers and the intelligence that goes behind the monitoring to trigger a flag, And then that just go into their own internal kind of compliance reg and set off a whole another chain of events? I would imagine. >> Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things we can do with our classification policies. And like, in the case of the COVID policy, we just kind of crowd source that internally, and created a policy, in about a week, really. That we, you know, we shaped the basic policy and then kept refining it, refining it, testing it. And we were able to go from start to finish, and have it publicly available within about a week and a half. It was really a great effort. And we have that kind of ability to be very nimble, to react to different types of regulations as they become, you know, get out there. And then there's also a constant refining of even data privacy for every country that we support. You know, we have data privacy regulations for the entire European union and for most countries around the world, obviously the US, Canada, Australia, and so on. And, you can always make those policies better. So we've introduced feedback loops where our customers can give us feedback on what works and what isn't working, and we can tweak the policies as needed. But it is a great way to respond to whatever's going on in the world, to help our customer base, which, you know, is largely the financial verticals, the public sector verticals, but even healthcare is becoming more important for us. >> So Dave, I wonder if there's some other use cases that people aren't thinking about, where you guys have seen value in this type of analytics. >> Yeah, I mean, definitely the one thing that I think is just starting to emerge as the value that's inherent in communications. So I mentioned earlier the telemedicine idea, and, you know, can you learn from doctor-patient interactions if you're capturing them over telemedicine vehicles, you know again, Video Chat, Zoom, and that sort of thing. But similarly, if you've captured communications for a long time, as many of our customers have, what can you do with that data? And how can it feed into a broader data lake to give you new insights? So for example, if you want to gauge whether a major deal is about to close, you know, you can rely on your sales reps to populate the CRM and give you an indication it's 10% complete, it's 50% complete, whatever. But you're dependent on all the games that salespeople play. It would be far better to look at the pattern of a traditional deal Closing. You know, first you start out with one person at your company talking, to one person at the target customer that leads to meetings, that leads to calendar invites, that leads to emails being sent back and forth. You can look at the time of response, how quickly does the target customer respond to the sales rep? How often are they interacting? How many people are they interacting with? Is it spanning different GEOS? Is it spanning different groups within the company? Are there certain documents being sent back and forth, like, a quote for example. All of this can give you a higher confidence that that deal is going to close, or that deals failing. You don't really know. You can also look at historical data, and compare the current account manager to his predecessor. You know, does the current account manager interact with his customer as much as the former rep did? And is there a correlation in their effectiveness? You know, based on kind of their interactions, and their just basic skills. So I think that's an exciting field, and it shines a new light on the data that you have to collect, to comply with regulations, the data you have to collect for litigation and other reasons. Now there's other value there. >> Right. That's a fascinating story. So the reason that you guys would be involved in this, is because you're sitting on, you're sitting all that comms data, because you have to, for the regulation. I mean, what you're describing sounds like a perfect, you know, kind of sales force. Plug in. >> Absolutely. >> With a much richer dataset, versus as you said, relying on the sales person to input the sales force, information which would require them to remember their password, which gets reset every three weeks. So the chances of that are pretty slim. (laughs) >> Yeah. There's a fact, I think I've read a stat recently that about, you know, only 10% of information is actually captured in a CRM. You know, contact information and that sort of thing. But if you're looking at their emails, if you're looking at their phone calls and their texts, and that sort of thing, you get a rich set of data on contacts and people that you're interacting with at a target customer, and, you know, sales. More than any other job, I think sales has high turnover. And so you need that record of, you know, off the counter. One account rep leaves, you don't want to lose all their contacts and start over again. You want a smooth handover to the next person. >> Right. >> If you capture all that content from their communications into CRM, you're in great shape. >> Dave, I want to get your take on something that's happening now, because you're so dialed into policy, and policy and regulations, which are such a giant determinant of what people can and should and should not do, with data. When you take something like COVID and the conversations about people going back to work, and contact tracing. To me it's like, Wow! You know, it's kind of this privacy clash against HIPAA, and, you know, that's medical information. And yet it's like this particular disease has been deemed such that it kind of falls outside the traditional, you know, kind of HIPAA rules. They're not going to test me for any other ailments before I come in the door at work, but they, you know, eventually we're going to be scanning people. So, you know, the levels of complexity and dynamicism, if that's even a word, around something like that, that's even a one off, within a specific, you know, kind of medical data is got to be, you know, I guess, interesting and challenging, but from a policy perspective and an actual handling of that information, that's got to be a crazy challenge. >> Yeah. I mean, we do expect that COVID it's going to lead to all kinds of litigation and Freedom of Information Act request. And that's a big reason why we saw the importance very quickly, that we need a classification policy to highlight that content. So what we can do in this case is we can, first of all, identify where that content is stored. We have a product called data insight that can monitor your file system and quickly locate. If you've got a document that includes, you know, patient data or anything related to COVID-19, we can find that. And now as we bring in the communications, we can flag communications, as we archive them and say, this is related to COVID-19. Then when a litigation happens, you can look, you can do a quick search and you can filter on the COVID-19 tag. And the people you're concerned with, and the date range you're concerned with, you can easily pull in all of the communications, all of the file content, anything related to COVID-19. And this is huge for, again, for public sector, where there are subject to finance, you know, sorry, Freedom of Information Act request. But it's also going to affect every company, because like, it's going to be litigation around, when a company decided that they would work from home, and did they wait too long. You know, and did someone get sick because they weren't aggressive enough. There's going to be frivolous lawsuits, there's going to be more tangible lawsuits, and, there's going to be all kinds of activity around how stimulus funds were spent and that sort of thing. So, yeah. That's a great example of a case where you've got to find the content quickly and respond to requests very quickly. Classification go a long way there. >> Yeah. That's the lawyers have hardly gotten involved in this COVID thing yet. And, to your point, it's going to be both frivolous as well as justified. And did people come back too early? Did they take the right steps? It's going to be messy and sloppy, but it sounds like you're in a good position to help people get through it. So, you know, just kind of your final thoughts you've been in this business for a long time. The rate and pace of change is only increasing the complexity of veracity, stealing some good, old, big data words. Velocity of the data is only increasing, the sources are growing exponentially. You know, as you kind of sit back and reflect obviously, a lot of exciting stuff ahead, but what do you think about what gets you up in the morning beyond just continuing to race to keep up with the neverending see of changing regulatory environment? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think we have a great portfolio that can really help us react to change, and to take advantage of some of these new trends. And that is exciting, like telemedicine, the changes that come with COVID-19, what we could do for telemedicine rating doctors gauging their performance. We could do the same sort of thing for tele-education. You know, like I have two kids that have had, you know, homeschooling for the last three months, and, probably are going to face that in the fall. And, there might be some needs to just rate how the teachers are doing, how well are the classes interacting, and what can we learn from best practices there. So I think that's interesting and interesting space as well. But what keeps me going is the fact that we've got market leading products in archiving, eDiscovery, and supervision. We're putting a lot of new energy into those solutions. They've been around a long time. We've been archiving since 1998 I think, and doing supervision and discovery for 20 years. And, it's strange, the market's still there, it's still expanding, it's still growing. And, it's kind of just keeping up to change and, trying to find better ways of surfacing the relevant human communications content that said that's kind of the key to the job, I think. >> Right. Well yeah, Finding that signal amongst the noise is going to get increasingly... >> Exactly. >> More difficult than has been kind of a recurring theme here over the last 12 weeks or 15 weeks, or however long it's been. As you know, this kind of light switch moment on digital transformation is no longer, when are we going to get to it, or we're going to do a POC or let's experiment a little bit, you know, here and there it's, you know, ready, set, go. Whether you're ready or not, whether that's a kindergarten teacher, that's never taught online, a high school teacher running a big business. So nothing but a great opportunity. (laughs) >> Absolutely. >> All right. >> Absolutely. I mean, it's a very, a changing world and lots of opportunity comes with that. >> All right. Well Dave, thank you for sharing your insight, obviously regulation compliance, and I like that, you know, data supervision is not just backup and recovery is much, much bigger opportunity, in a lot higher value activity. So congrats to you and the team. And thanks for the update. >> All right. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for the time. >> All right. He's Dave and I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Bach from Las Vegas. It's the Q covered AWS executive summit brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of the Excenture executive summit here at AWS. Reinvent from Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We are joined by two guests for this segment. We have Greg sly, he is the SVP platform and infrastructure at Verizon. Thank you so much for coming on Greg. Thank you. Happy to be here and almost sad. K he is the managing director, Accenture global network services. Thank you so much. I'm all so Greg, I want to start with you wanting, everyone knows Verizon, it's a household brand. Tell our viewers a little bit just about how big you are, what countries you're in your reach. >>Okay. Well we're a global company. There's about 135 ish thousand employees in the company. The brands and they're, you know, they include Yahoo and AOL and HuffPost and riot and others. So we have a much more global reach with some of those brands overseas for is obviously very well known in the U S and overseas as well. And that's really where our big plays are. Now. We're big in Asia as well with our eCommerce sites and stuff. So it's, it's, it's global and it's everywhere. So, >>so give our viewers an overview of this current state of where you are in your journey to the cloud, the cloud effication of Verizon. >>Sure. So the last probably two years we've really put a lot of focus into moving out of our data centers and into the cloud. We focused primarily on workloads that are right for the cloud because we as during this journey we went, there's obviously huge data lakes and huge amounts of data equipped over two exabytes of data. And trying to move that to the cloud is obviously takes some time. But a lot of our front end apps from anything from, you know, where your order, your phone or where you order services to, whether you're on Yahoo fantasy sports or on finance page, those, those things tend to work well in the cloud and they're built for the cloud for very bursty type workflows. So we spend a lot of time moving a lot of our applications plus all the new Greenfield applications up into the cloud. So we're, we're considerable way down the path now on that. We're now getting to the tail end with these kind of massive data sets on what's our next step for those. And that's what we're working on now. >>Um, well I want to bring you into this conversation a little. What, what are you seeing right now across cross industry, the current state of deployments? >>Yeah, so I mean, just building on what Greg said it's almost a third wave of cloudification that we see now. So you know that we had the desegregation of hardware and software and most operators started to go globally towards cloud and then they sort of had the second way, which was really the own private cloud infrastructures. And now because we are here, you can see clearly the amount of public cloud infrastructure that's starting to come in and become relevant to this deployment. So it's almost a third wave where I see a lot of our clients globally looking at hybrid cloud type models for. And >>that really accelerates that cloudification journey because now you see a lot of workloads moving to a hybrid cloud environment. Just by the size of the ecosystem of suppliers and partners that are involved. We give you a sense of how accelerated this has become. I mean, the last three years I've seen in this event doubling of the number of partners who are just moving their workloads, whether it's compute, storage network to a hybrid cloud in one. So that acceleration has started and we expect in the next two to three years this will become mainstream. That I'm always right. We're been down that exact same journey where we've, we've done a lot of things up into the cloud like in AWS now, but we've also done a private cloud which enabled us as more like a development or a on-prem tool that allowed us to build, learn, and take applications that were not really ready for the cloud, are native for the cloud, build them on prem, wherever, a little bit more freedom to do some things and then learn and then move them up to the public cloud. So we've been down that exact same journey. >>So I also want to ask about a buzzword here, five G five G the arrival of five G. what it means to your industry and whether or not being in the cloud is ness is a necessary prerequisite to really capture all the benefits. >>I'm going to start on me. Sure, go ahead. No, I was just saying if you look at 5g, the reason it's so fundamentally different from previous generations is because 5g opens up a bunch of use cases that traditional TG for genetics did not and the size and skin of those use cases including like billions of devices and having really cool use cases like gaming and health and automotive and robotics in 10 places a huge burden on an infrastructure, which means cloudification does become a massive requisite. The level of skill size devices, latency profiles is something you only get when you are on a cloud infrastructure. So Greg, I agree 100% and this is going to drive new innovation that we've never seen before as we obviously being Verizon. 5g is one of our big, big bats. Obviously. That's one of the things that Andy and Hans talked about yesterday at the announcement here at reinvent and where we're seeing now with clarification, it's, it's literally I think one of the cornerstones of how it's going to work because we're going to have to put so much out to the far edge and out into as close to the customers as we can. >>The only way you're going to do that is through the cloud and using the cloud services like outpost and other services to push that out close to the, to our customers. So 5g and cloud are synonymous. They're going to go hand in hand. It's the only way it's going to work. And when, if I just save one last thing on what Greg said, cloudification was happening anyways and it was a great efficiency driver for all organizations. Five G's almost come in and lit a match and said, here's a lot of revenue opportunities that you can get on top and that has just accelerated >>the whole thing with distribution of five G and cloud. So that that's going to happen. >>Yeah, I think we're really only seeing the beginning. It's so early on in 5g and the journey to the cloud that I think next year's reinvent and the year after that I think we're going to look back and say this was really just the very beginning of what we're learning, what this technology can do for the world. >>I want to ask about innovation and this is something that Andy Jassy talked about in his fireside chat this morning is how AWS maintains its startup mentality even though it is of course a enormous company. How does, how do you think about innovation and approach innovation at Verizon? How do you make sure you are continuing to experiment and push boundaries even though you are a large and complex organization yourself? >>It's a good question. That's something we are always pushing. I think it starts from the top with Hans, he's, he's made one of his key pillars of innovation, of what we have to drive, listening to our customers and building on what they need, but we've spent a lot of time on redefining how we work to adapt to the cloud. So the days of in the past of, you know, we'll do one release every quarter, it's now how many releases a day can you do? And the only way you can do that innovation through bucket testing, through AB testing is literally embracing the cloud and doing small tests here and there on stuff. So it's really now learning from the internet startups, trying to keep that startup mentality in a company the size that's 137,000 employees. But it's building that culture and I think Hans has been a great leader to really drive that, that different way of working. So, >>um, well we've seen a dizzying number of announcements from AWS, new products and new services that are coming out. What are, what is most caught your attention and how are you thinking about how to help clients capture the benefits of what AWS is offering? >>You know, the thing that struck me yesterday when I was looking at the keynote was this is probably the first time there is a recognition in the industry that it's an ecosystem play. And what I mean by that is a lot of the challenges that were seen in the last couple of years around getting 5g mainstream, getting all these things in the market was who does it, who supports them and this whole ecosystem and yesterday's announcement where you know Andy enhance and other carriers like water, phone and so on are coming in and saying, you know what? Let's do this together. Let's collaborate. To me that really hit the Mark because as you start building specific use cases to make this real for a consumer like us, you will see that an ecosystem plays the only way to make this a reality. And that's what really struck me. If you look at Waveland, if you look at local zones, all the announcements that were done yesterday, all of them require app development communities, escalates session partnerships. It requires hardware partnerships, services firms. It requires of omic Accenture to come in and do this secret sauce. So there's lot of things that have to >>be done there. And I believe that's what really caught my eye, that it's an ecosystem. Now you have the amount of collaboration going forward. Is going to be unprecedented because no one company is going to be able to do all of it. >>So how do we, you're both technology veterans. I mean you're just babes. You're, you're just teenagers of course. But thinking about how different it is today versus when you were just beginning your careers in terms of, I mean we have this idea of this cutthroat competitive world of technology, but as you said, there is, these companies need each other. I mean they're there, they're competing of course, but they also desperately need each other to make sure their business models are successful. So can you just describe this landscape for, for our viewers in terms of what you've seen as changes and whether or not these changes are for the good? >>Well, starting in the mainframe days, which is where I started and then kind of went wound, don't, you know, windows NT and the distributed compute, you're right, it was very do it ourselves. We're the only ones that could do it. You have to hide everything from all your competitors because we're providing a solution and nobody sees anybody else a secret sauce. And obviously protecting IP was key. Now we've seen open source take a much broader stroke across the canvas and we've also now everyone's got what are we best at and how do we use that rather than trying to be all things to everybody and building partnerships. So you're right, we have partnerships with company that we compete with, but we also have relationships. We need to work together to make this happen. So it is completely different from what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago on how you're collaborating on one part of a company who should come. >>Competing is one area, but you're actually collaborating to build a product to go to market together at another one. So it's really interesting. I mean the market forces have changed dramatically. I mean, I remember when I was in my telecom operator days with BT, we used to as great selling or love technology, we used to start in the labs and in the labs we use engineering was a sort of bread and butter. And then this focus on customer centricity in the last couple of years around so much choice, so much availability of solutions in the market. And as Greg said, the collaboration is a must do now. And that's why that focus changed for us. And I see now this customer centricity becoming so important that what does the end user really want? And then that comes with it and realization that says, okay, I am not able to provide this by myself, but I do know how to solve for it. >>And that's when you have to bring in others who can create a solution. You're absolutely right because you know, 10 years ago, 1520 years ago, technology was still so new. Most people weren't comfortable yet and really knew what it could do or what they wanted. And it was a room full of architects designing what it was going to be. Now it's a room full of customers telling you what they want and going out. So it's completely changed now where we'll build what the customer, what we think the customer needs. Now we're building what the customer tells us they want. So it's been a one 80 >>so Greg, I know before the cameras were rolling, you were talking about how you'd been to this conference years ago and now just the growth that it has experienced has really shocked your, your sphere system. Um, what kinds of conversations are you having? What are the messages that you're hearing, a particular letter that are particularly resonant to you right now? This idea of the fourth industrial revolution. Do you buy it? >>I absolutely buy it and it's not just drinking the Koolaid because I work at Verizon. It's actually seeing what's possible in health. What's possible in gaming, automotive industry. Like you were saying at the beginning, it's one thing that struck me in Pedder was through the conversation we were having of how many people I've met here and when I was walking through the expo downstairs I was like, Oh, we have a relationship with them now. We have relationship with them. There's like half the floor down there that we have some sort of relationship with that were other customer or a partner or providing services to that. It's, it's, it's changed where before you'd have a booth and you're like, how many people can we get over there? Now it's like how do we get a booth with our partners that we can talk about a common solution that we're providing back? >>So it's, it's been amazing from like it reinvent four or five years ago it was like one hotel was still pretty full up to like four or five hotels now with with 65,000 people or something. It's, it's amazing. But, but the conversations before too used to be, we can only talk if we go into a private room over here. It's now that there's so many people and so many conversations and they're like, Oh let me pull them all in. Let me pull Rebecca cause we're all talking about the same thing now. So it's become more open. There's still sure there's IP and things we have to protect and we all have our company strategies, but there's now there's so much collaboration, there's a lot more conversations going on now. I mean the focus will now move to how do we operationalize this industrial revolution because that's where a lot of engineering horsepower, a lot of scaling would have to happen in terms of, it would be great to launch health as a service or gaming as a service and all of these things. >>But you know when things go wrong, which Deville in the early years of adoption, somebody is going to have to take the call, somebody is going to have to manage the customers. Somebody who's going to have to, because that's where the test would happen in terms of okay this is going to stick and this is going to work. So to me the next two to three years of this event will be around how do I operationalize and scale what we've now started? Cause I think that's where the rubber is going to hit the road. And I think even at Accenture we see this with all our work. It's moving more and more towards how do I monetize the use cases, how do I now build on it? How do I implement at scale? So that's, that's really what I see happening >>coming up. We were, we're on, we're on the cusp of 2020 there's so many new emerging technologies and of course the old technologies which are still pretty new machine learning, AI, IOT. What are some of the exciting trends that you're looking at coming in next year and the next three to five years in terms of your business and an industry wide? Two ML? >>Well for me there's obviously the stuff that we're talking about with five G and waving, but one that really struck me at this conference was how we're going to be treating data differently or I should say storage of data differently. Where before it was like buy huge storage devices and you'd have petabytes and petabytes or exabytes of data in a data somewhere, data centers somewhere. It's now distributed out to the far edge. It's, it's going to be much more in the cloud, much more dispersed. Obviously that's going to bring challenges around, you know, with, with GDPR, with, with, you know, the, the California protection act, all of those that are coming as well of how we're going to deal with that. So absolutely the 5g and the announcements went on yesterday. But in my slice of the world, looking at how are we going to manage, transform, handle, distribute data and how we're going to protect user's privacy through all of that is really interesting. And I think a new field that we're, it's just changing so rapidly day to day >>and one that's really part of our national conversation too in terms of privacy and security. >>Well I think to me the key trend would be adjacencies. And what I mean by that is we've always been a little bit siloed traditionally in terms of, you know, there is a telco industry solution and then there is a mining solution and then there is a automotive solution, right? And the technology is blurring these lines. Now, you know, like as Greg said, I can have a intelligent 5g conversation with a gentleman, car manufacturing company that I wouldn't have dreamed of having a couple of years ago. So that trend is set to accelerate because 5g edge compute, all of these things are going to be more and more applicable to adjacent industries. And this is why I always believe the telecom sector has a pivotal role, almost a orchestrator role that says as these industries look for solutions we have those, we just haven't adapted and customized are social. That I think would be a big trend. I see other industries are going to cash in on what we've done. >>I'm all, Greg, thank you so much for coming on the cube. A really fascinating conversation. Oh, pleasure. I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit. Coming up in just a little bit.