[Music] we're here with steve melanie the president and ceo of aviatrix steve john and i started this whole super cloud narrative as a way to describe that something different is happening specifically within the aws ecosystem but more broadly across the cloud landscape at re invent last year you and i spoke on the cube and you said one of your investors guy named nick sterile said to you at the show it's happening steve welcome to the cube what's happening what did nick mean by that yeah we were we were just getting ready to go on and i leaned over and he looked at me and he whispered in my ear and said it's happening he said it just like that and and you're right it was it was kind of funny and we talked about that and what he means is enterprises you know this is why i went to aviatrix three and a half years ago is the the the flip switch for enterprises and they said now we mean it we've been talking about cloud for 12 years or 15 years now we mean it we are digitally transforming we are the movement to cloud is going to make that happen and oh by the way of course it's multi-cloud because enterprises put workloads where they run best where they have the best security the best performance the best cost and the business is driving this transformation and they decide that i'm going to use that azure and another business unit decides i'm using google and another one says i'm using aws and so of course it's going to be multi-cloud and i think we're going to start seeing actual multi-cloud applications once that infrastructure and you know you call it the super cloud once that starts getting built developers are going to go wait a minute so i can pick this feature from google and and that service from azure and that service from aws easily without any hesitation once that happens they're going to start really developing today there aren't multi-cloud applications but but but the what's happening is the enterprise embracing public cloud they're using multiple clouds many of them call it four plus one right they're four different public clouds plus what they have on prem that to me is what's happening i am now re-architecting my enterprise infrastructure from applications all the way down to the network and i am embracing uh uh public clouds in that in that process so i mean you nailed us so many things in there i mean digitally transforming to me this is the digital transformation it's leveraging embracing the capex from the hyperscalers now you know people in the industry we're not trying to do what gartner does and create a new category per se but we do use super cloud as a metaphor so i don't expect necessarily vendors to use it or not but but i and i get that but when you talk about multi-cloud what specifically is new in other words what you touched on some of this stuff what constitutes a modern multi-cloud or what we would call a super cloud you know network architecture what are the salient attributes yeah i would say today so two years ago there was no such thing even as multiple clouds it was aws let's be clear everything was aws and for people to even back then two three years ago to even envision that there would be anything else other than aws people couldn't even envision now people kind of go yeah that was done we now see that we're going to use multiple clouds we're going to use azure we're going to use gcp and we're going to use this and we'll guess we're going to use oracle and even ollie cloud we're going to use five or four or five different public clouds what's but that would be i think of as multiple clouds but from an i.t perspective they need to be able to support all those clouds in these shared services and what they're going to do i actually think we're starting and you may have hit on something in the super cloud or i know you've talked about metacloud that that's got bad connotations for facebook i know everybody's like no please not another meta thing but there is that concept of this abstracted layer above you know writing we call it you know altitude you know aviatrix everything's you know riding above the clouds right that that that common abstracted layer this application infrastructure that runs the application that rides above all the different public clouds and i think once we do that you know dave what's going to happen is i think really what's going to happen is you're going to start seeing these these multi-cloud applications which to my knowledge really doesn't exist today i i think that might be the next phase and in order for that to happen you have to have all of the infrastructure be multi-cloud meaning not just networking and network security from from from aviation but you need snowflake you need hashtag you need datadog you need all the new horsemen of the new multi-cloud which isn't the old guys right this is all new people aviatrix dashie snowflake datadonk you name it that are going to be able to deliver all this multi-cloud cross-cloud wherever you want to talk about it such that application development and deployment can happen seamlessly and frictionlessly across multi-cloud once that happens the entire stack then you're going to start seeing and that to me starts enabling this what you guys call you know the super cloud the meta cloud the whatever cloud but that then rides above all the individual clouds that that's going to start getting a whole new realm of application development in my mind so we've got some work to do to basic do some basic blocking and tackling then the application developers can really build on top of that so so some of the skeptics on on this topic would ask how do you envision this changing networking versus it just being a bolt-on to existing fossilized network infrastructure in other words yeah how do we get from point a where we are today to point b you know so-called networking so we can actually build those uh super cloud applications yeah so you know what it is it's interesting because it goes back to my background at nasira and what we used to talk about then it isn't about managing complexity it's about creating simplicity it's very different and when you put the intelligence into the software right this is what computer science is all about we're turning networking into computer science when you create an abstraction layer we are not just an overlay day we dave we actually integrate in with the native services of the cloud we are not managing the complexity of these multi-clouds we are using it you know controlling the native constructs adding our own intelligence to this and then creating what is basically simplification for the people above it so we're simplifying things not just managing the complexity that's how you get the agility for cloud that's how you get to be able to do this because if all you are is a veneer on top of complexity you're just hiding complexity you're not creating simplicity and what happens is it actually probably gets more complex because if all you're doing is hiding the bad stuff you're not getting rid of it i love that i love that we're doing that at the networking and network security layer you're going to see snowflake and datadog and other people do it at their layers you know i reminds of a conversation i had with cause the one of the founders of pure storage who they're all about simplicity this idea of of creating simplicity versus like you said just creating you know a way to handle the complexity compare you know pure storage with the sort of old legacy emc storage devices and that's what you had you had you you had emc managing the complexity at pure storage disrupting by creating simplicity so what are the challenges of creating that simplicity and delivering that seamless experience that continuous experience across cloud is it engineering is it mindset is it culture is it technology what is it well i mean look at look you see the recession that we're we're hitting you see there is a significant problem that we have in the general it industry right now and it's called skills gap skills shortage it's two problems we don't have enough people and we don't have enough people that know cloud and the reason is everybody on the same tuesday three and a half years ago all said now i mean i'm moving the cloud we're a technology company we don't make sneakers anymore we don't make beer we're a technology company and we're going to digitally transform and we're going to move the cloud guess what three years ago there were probably seven people that understood cloud now everyone on the same tuesday morning all decides to try to hire those same seven people there's just not enough people around so you're going to need software and you're going to have to put the intelligence into the software because you're not going to be able to a hire those people and b even if you hire them you can't keep them as soon as they learn cloud guess what happens dave they're off they're on to the next job at the next highest bidder so how are you going to handle that you have to have software that intelligent software that is going to simplify things for you we have people managing massive multi-cloud network and network security people with two people on-prem they got hundreds right you it's not about taking that complex model that it had on-prem and jam it into the cloud you don't have the people to do it and you're not going to get the people to do it you know i want to ask you yeah so i want to ask you about the go to market challenges because we our industry gets a bad rap for for selling we're really good at selling and then but but actually delivering what we sell sometimes we fall down there so so i love tom sweet as cfo of of dell he talks about the the say do ratio uh how that's actually got to be low but you know but you know what i mean uh the math the fraction guy right so but do do what you say you're going to do are there specific go to market challenges related to this type of cross cloud selling where you can set you have to set the customer's expectations because what you're describing is not going to happen overnight it's a journey but how do you handle that go to market challenge in terms of setting those customer expectations and actually delivering what you say you can sell and selling enough to actually have a successful business um so i think everything's outside in so so i think the the what really is exciting to me about this cloud computing model that with the transformation that we're going through is it is business-led and it is led by the ceo and it is led by the business units they run the business it is all about agility is about enabling my developers and it's all about driving the business market share revenue all these kind of things you know the last transformation of mainframe to on to pc client server was led by technologists it wasn't led by the business and it was it was really hard to tie that to the business so then so this is great because we can look at the initiatives you can look at the the the initiatives of the ceo in your company and now as an i.t person you can tie to that and they're going to have two or three or four initiatives and you can actually map it to that so that's where we start is let's look at what the c your ceo cares about he cares about this he cares about that he cares about driving revenue he cares about agility of getting new applications out to the market sooner to get more revenue there's this and oh by the way transfer made transforming your infrastructure to the cloud is the number one thing so it's all about agility so guess what you need to be able to respond to that immediately because tomorrow the business is going to go to you and say great news dave we're moving to gcp wait what no one told me about that well we're telling you now and uh you need to be ready tomorrow and if you're sitting there and you're tied to the low-level constructs and all you know is aws well i don't have those people and even if i have even if i could hire them i'm not allowed to because i can't hire anybody how am i going to respond to the business and the needs of the business now all of a sudden i'm in the way as the infrastructure team of the ceo's goals because we decided we need to we need to get the ai capabilities of gcp and we're moving to gcp or i just did a big deal with gcp and uh miraculously they said i need to run on gcp right i did a big deal with google right guess what comes along with that oh you're moving to gcp great the business says we're moving to gcp and the i.t guys are sitting there going well no one told me well sorry so it's all about agility it's all about that and the and and complexity is the killer to agility this is all about business they're going to come to you and say we just acquired a company we need to integrate them oh but they got they use the same ip address range as we do there's overlapping ips and oh by the way they're in a different cloud how do i do that no one cares the business doesn't care they're like me they're very impatient get it done or we'll find someone who will yeah so you've got to get ahead of that and so when we in terms of when we talk to customers that's what we do this isn't just about defenses this is about making you get promoted making you do good for your company such that you can respond to that and maybe even enable the company to go do that like we're going to enable people to do true multi-cloud applications because the infrastructure has to come first right you you put the foundation in your big skyscraper like the crew behind me and the plumbing before you start building the floors right so infrastructure comes first then comes then comes the applications yeah so you know again some people call it super cloud like us multi-cloud 2.0 but the the real mega trend that i see steve and i'd love you to bottom line this and bring us home is you know andreessen's all companies are software companies it's like version 2.0 of that and the applications that are going to be built on that top this tie into the digital transformations it was goldman it's jpmc it's walmart it's capital one b of a oracle's acquisition of cerner is going to be really interesting to see these super clouds form within industries bringing their data their tooling and their specific software expertise built on top of that hyperscale infrastructure and infrastructure for companies like yours so bottom line is stephen steve what's the future of cloud how do you see it the future is n plus one so two years ago people had one plus one i had what i had on prem and then what i had in aws they today if you talk to an enterprise they'll have what they call four plus one right which is four public clouds plus what i have on prem it's going to n plus one right and what's going to happen is exactly what you said you're going to have industry clouds you're going to the the multi-cloud aspect of it is going to end it's not going to go from four to one some people think oh it's not going to be four it's going down to one or two bs it's going to end it's going to a lot as they start extending to the edge and they start integrating out to the to the branch offices it's not going to be about that branch offer so that edge iot or edge computing or data centers or campus connecting into the cloud it's going to be the other way around the cloud is going to extend to those areas and you're going to have ai clouds you know whether it's you know ultra beauty who's a customer of ours who's starting to roll out ar and vr out to their retail stores to show you know makeup and this and the other thing these are new applications transformations are always driven by new applications that don't exist this isn't about lift and shift of the existing applications the 10x tam in this market is going to becomes all the new things that's where the explosion is going to happen and you're going to see end level those those branch offices are going to look like clouds and they're going to need to be stitched together and treated like one infrastructure so it's going to go from four plus one to n plus one and that's what you're gonna want as an enterprise i'm gonna want n clouds so we're gonna see an explosion it's not going to be four it's going to be end now at the end underneath all of that will be leveraging and effectively commoditizing the existing csps yeah and but you're going to have an explosion of people commoditizing them and just like the goldmans and the industry clubs are going to do they're going to build their own eye as well right no way no way it's that's what's going to happen it's going to be a 10x on what we saw last decade with sas it's all going to happen around clouds and supercloud steve malini thanks so much for coming back in the cube and helping us sort of formulate this thinking i mean it really started with with with you and myself and john and nick and really trying to think this through and watching this unfold before our eyes so great to have you back thank you yeah it's fun thanks for having me are you welcome but keep it right there for more action from super cloud 22 be right back [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California for a great remote interview with Ameya Talwalkar, CEO of Cequence Security. Protecting APIs is the name of the game. Ameya thanks for coming on this CUBE Conversation. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having us. >> So, I mean, obviously APIs, cloud, it runs everything. It's only going to get better, faster, more containers, more Kubernetes, more cloud-native action, APIs are at the center of it. Quick history, Cequence, how you guys saw the problem and where is it today? >> Yeah, so we started building the company or the product, the first product of the company focused on abuse or business logic abuse on APIs. We had design partners in large finance FinTech companies that are now customers of Cequence that were sort of API first, if you will. There were products in the market that were, you know, solving this problem for them on the web and in some cases mobile applications, but since these were API first very modern FinTech and finance companies that deal with lot of large enterprises, merchants, you have it, you name it. They were struggling to protect their APIs while they had protection on web and mobile applications. So that's the genesis. The problem has evolved exponentially in terms of volume size, pain, the ultimate financial losses from those problems. So it has, it's been a interesting journey and I think we timed it perfectly in terms of when we got started with the problem we started with. >> Yeah, I'm sure if you look at the growth of APIs, they're just exponentially growing because of the development, cloud-native development wave plus open source driving a lot of action. I was talking to a developer the other day and he's like, "Just give me a bag of Lego blocks and I'll build whatever application." I mean, this essentially- >> Yeah. >> API first is, has got us here, and that's standard. >> Yeah. >> Everyone's building on top of APIs, but the infrastructure going cloud-native is growing as well. So how do you secure APIs without slowing down the application velocity? Which everyone's trying to make go faster. So you got faster velocity on the developer side and (chuckles) more APIs coming. How do you secure the API infrastructure without slowing down the apps? >> Yeah, I'll come to the how part of it but I'll give you a little bit of commentary on what the problem really is. It's what has happened in the last few years is as you mentioned, the sort of journey to the cloud whether it's a public cloud or a private cloud, some enterprises have gone to a multi-cloud strategy. What really has happened is two things. One is because of that multi-environment deployment there is no defined parameter anymore to your applications or APIs. And so the parameter where people typically used to have maybe a CDN or WAF or other security controls at the parameter and then you have your infrastructure hosting these apps and APIs is completely gone away, that just doesn't exist anymore. And even more so for APIs which really doesn't have a whole lot of content to be cashed. They don't use CDN. So they are behind whatever API gateways whether they're in the cloud or whatever, they're hosting their APIs. And that has become your micro parameter, if you will, as these APIs are getting spread. And so the security teams are struggling with, how do I protect such a diverse set of environments that I am supposed to manage and protect where I don't have a unified view. I don't have even, like a complete view, if you will, of these APIs. And back in the days when phones or the modern iPhones and Android phones became popular, there used to be a sort of ad campaign I remember that said, "There is an app for that." >> Yeah. >> So the fast forward today, it's like, "There's an API for that." So everything you wanted to do today as a consumer or a business- >> John: Yeah. >> You can call an API and get your business done. And that's the challenge that's the explosion in APIs. >> Yeah. >> (laughs) Go ahead. >> It's interesting you have the API life cycle concept developing. Now you got, everyone knows- >> Right. >> The application life cycle, you know CI/CD pipelining, shifting left, but the surface area, you got web app firewalls which everyone knows is kind of like outdated, but you got API gateways. >> Yep. >> The surface area- >> Yeah. >> Is only increasing. So I have to ask you, do the existing API security tools out there bring that full application- >> Yeah. >> And API life cycle together? 'Cause you got to discover- >> Yep. >> The environment, you got to know what to protect and then also net new functionality. Can you comment? >> Right. Yeah. So that actually goes to your how question from, you know, previous section which is really what Cequence has defined is a API protection life cycle. And it's this concrete six-step process in which you protect your APIs. And the reason why we say it's a life cycle is it's not something that you do once and forget about it. It's a continuous process that you have to keep doing because your DevOps teams are publishing new APIs almost every day, every other day, if you will. So the start of that journey of that life cycle is really about discovering your external facing API attack surface which is where we highlight new hosting environments. We highlight accidental exposures. People are exposing their staging APIs. They might have access to production data. They are exposing Prometheus or performance monitoring servers. We find PKCS 7 files. We find Log4j vulnerabilities. These are things that you can just get a view of from outside looking in and then go about prioritizing which API environments you want to protect. So that's step number one. Step number two, really quick is do an inventory of all your APIs once you figure out which environments you want to protect or prioritize. And so that inventory includes a runtime inventory. Also creating specifications for these APIs. In lot of places, we find unmanaged APIs, shadow APIs and we create the API inventory and also push them towards sort of a central API management program. The third step is really looking at the risk of these APIs. Make sure they are using appropriate security controls. They're not leaking any sensitive information, PCI, PHI, PII, or other sort of industry-specific sensitive information. They are conforming to their schema. So sometimes the APIs dba.runtime from their schema and then that can cause a risk. So that's the first, sort of first half of this life cycle, if you will, which is really making sure your APIs are secure, they're using proper hygiene. The second half is about attack detection and prevention. So the fourth step is attack detection. And here again, we don't stop just at the OWASP Top 10 category of threats, a lot of other vendors do. They just do the OWASP API Top 10, but we think it's more than that. And we go deeper into business logic abuse, bots, and all the way to fraud. And that's sort of the attack detection piece of this journey. Once you detect these attacks, you start about, think about prevention of these attacks, also natively with Cequence. And the last step is about testing and making sure your APIs are secure even before they go live. >> What's- >> So that's a journey. Yeah. >> What's the secret sauce? What makes you different? 'Cause you got two sides to that coin. You got the auditing, kind of figure things out, and then you got the in-built attacks. >> Yeah. >> What makes you guys different? >> Yeah. So the way we are different is, first of all, Cequence is the only vendor that can, that has all these six steps in a single platform. We talked about security teams just lacking that complete view or consistent and uniform view of all your, you know, parameter, all your API infrastructure. We are combining that into a single platform with all the six steps that you can do in just one platform. >> John: Yeah. >> Number two is the outside looking in view which is the external discovery. It's something Cequence is unique in this space, uniquely doing this in this space. The third piece is the depth of our detection which is we don't just stop at the OWASP API Top 10, we go to fraud, business logic abuse, and bot attacks. And the mitigation, this will be interesting to you, which is a lot of the API security vendors say you come into existence because your WAF is not protecting your APIs, but they turn around when they detect the attacks to rely on a WAF to mitigate this or prevent these threats. And how can you sort of comprehend all that, right? >> Yeah. >> So we are unique in the sense we can prevent the attacks that we detect in the same platform without reliance on any other third-party solution. >> Yeah, I mean we- >> The last part is, sorry, just one last. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Which is the scale. So we are serving largest of the large Fortune 100, Fortune 50 enterprises. We are processing 6 billion API calls per day. And one of the large customers of ours is processing 1 billion API calls per day with Cequence. So scale of APIs that we can process and how we can scale is also unique to Cequence. >> Yeah, I think the scale thing's a huge message. There, just, I put a little accent on that. I got to comment because we had an event last week called Supercloud which we were trying to talking about, you know, as clouds become more multicloud, you get more super capabilities. But automation, with super cloud comes super hackers. So as things advance, you're seeing the step function, the bad guys are getting better too. You mentioned bots. So I have to ask you what are some of the sophisticated attacks that you see that look like legitimate traffic or transactions? Can you comment on what your scale and your patterns are showing? Because the attacks are coming in fast and furious >> Correct. So APIs make the attack easier because APIs are well documented. So you want your partners and, you know, programmers to use your API ecosystem, but at the same time the attackers are getting the same information and they can program against those APIs very easily which means what? They are going to write a bunch of bots and automation to cause a lot of pain. The kind of sophistication we have seen is I'll just give a few examples. Ulta Beauty is one of our customers, very popular retailer in the US. And we recently found an interesting attack. They were selling some high-end hair curling high ends which are very high-end demand, very expensive, very hard to find. And so this links sort of physical path to API security, think about it, which is the bad guys were using a bot to scrape a third-party service which was giving local inventory information available to people who wanted to search for these items which are high in demand, low in supply. And they wrote a bot to find where, which locations have these items in supply, and they went and sort of broke into these showrooms and stole those items. So not only we say are saving them from physical theft and all the other problems that they have- >> Yeah. >> But also, they were paying about $25,000 per month extra- >> Yeah. >> For this geo-location service that was looking at their inventory. So that's the kind of abuse that can go on with APIs. Even when the APIs are perfectly secure, they're using appropriate security controls, these can go on. >> You know, that's a really great example. I'm glad you brought that up because I observed at AWS re:Inforce in Boston that Steven Schmidt has changed his title from chief information security officer to just chief security officer, to the point when asked he said, "Physical security is now tied together with the online." So to your point- >> Yeah. >> About the surveillance and attack setup- >> Yeah. >> For the physical, you got warehouses- >> Yep. >> You've got brick and mortar. This is the convergence of security. >> Correct. Absolutely. I mean, we do deal with many other, sort of a governance case. We help a Fortune 50 finance company which operates worldwide. And their gets concern is if an API is hosted in a certain country in Europe which has the most sort of aggressive data privacy and data regulations that they have to deal with, they want to make sure the consumer of that API is within a certain geo location whereby they're not subject to liabilities from GDPR and other data residency regulation. And we are the ones that are giving them that view. And we can have even restrict and make sure they're compliant with that regulation that they have to sort of comply with. >> I could only imagine that that geo-regional view and the intelligence and the scale gives you insights- >> Yeah. >> Into attacks that aren't really kind of, aren't supposed to be there. In other words, if you can keep the data in the geo, then you could look- >> Yep. >> At anything else as that, you know, you don't belong here kind of track. >> You don't belong here. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. >> All right. So let's get to the API. >> Yeah, I mean- >> So the API visibility is an issue, right? So I can see that, check, sold me on that, protection is key, but if, what's the current security team makeup? Are they buying into this or are they just kind of the hair on fire? What are security development teams doing? 'Cause they're under a lot of pressure to do the hardcore security work. And APIs, again, surface area's wide open, they're part of everyone's access. >> Yeah. So I mentioned about the six-step journey of the life cycle. Right? We see customers come to us with very acute pain point and they say, "Our hair is on, our hair on fire. (John laughing) Solve this problem for us." Like one large US telco company came to us to, just a simple problem, do the inventory and risk assessment of all our APIs. That's our number one pain point. Ended up starting with them on those two pain points or those two stops on their life cycle. And then we ended up solving all the six steps with them because once we started creating an inventory and looking at the risk profile, we also observed that these same APIs were target by bots and fraudsters doing all kinds of bad things. So once we discovered those problems we expanded the scope to sort of have the whole life cycle covered with the Cequence platform. And that's the typical experience which is, it's typically the security team. There are developer communities that are coming to us with sort of the testing aspect of it which integrated into DevOps toolchains and CI/CD pipelines. But otherwise, it's all about security challenges, acute pain points, and then expanding into the whole journey. >> All right. So you got the detection, you got the alerting, you got the protection, you got the mitigation. What's the advice- >> Yeah. >> To the customer or the right approach to set up with Cequence so that they can have the best protection. What the motion? What's the initial engagement look like? How do they engage? How do they operationalize? >> Yeah. >> You guys take me through that. >> Yeah. The simple way of engaging with Cequence is get that external assessment which will map your APIs for you, it'll create a assessment for you. We'll present that assessment, you know, to your security team. And like 90% of the times customers have an aha moment, (John chuckles) that they didn't know something that we are showing them. They find APIs that were not supposed to be public. They will find hosting environments that they didn't know about. They will find API gateways that were, like not commissioned, but being used. And so start there, start their journey with an assessment with Cequence, and then work with us to prioritize what problems you want to solve next once you have that assessment. >> So really making sure that their inventory of API is legit. >> Yep. Yep, absolutely. >> It's basically- >> Yep. >> I mean, you're starting to see more of this in the cloud-native, you know, Sbot, they call 'em, you know, (indistinct) materials. >> (Ameya faintly speaking). What do you got out there, kind of full understanding of what's being instrumented out there, big time. >> Yeah. The thing is a lot of analysts say that APIs is the number one attack vector this year and going forward, but you'll be surprised to see that it's not the APIs that get targeted that are poorly secured. Actually, the APIs that are completely not secured are the ones that are attacked the most because there are plenty of them. So start with the assessment, figure out the APIs that are out there and then start your journey. That's sort of my recommendation. >> So based on your advice what you're saying is there's a, most people make the mistake of having a lot of undocumented or unauthorized APIs out there that are unsecured. >> Yeah. And security teams are unaware of those APIs. So how do you protect something that you don't know even exists? >> Yeah. >> Right? So that's the challenge. >> Okay. You know, the APIs have to be secure. And as applications connect too, there's the other side of the APIs, whether that's credential passing, so much is at stake here relative to the security. It's not just access it's what's behind it. There's a lot of trust coming in. So, you know, I got to ask you a final question. You got zero trust and you got trust kind of coming together. What's (laughs), how do you respond to that? >> Yeah. Zero trust is part of it in the sense that you have to not trust sort of any API consumer as a completely trusted entity. Just like I gave you the Ultra Beauty example. They had trusted this third party to be absolutely safe and secure, you know, no controls necessary to sort of monitor their traffic, whereas they can be abused by their end consumers and cause you a lot of pain. So there is a sort of a linkage between zero trust. Never trusts anybody until you verify, that's the sort of angle, that's sort of the connection between APIs security and zero trust. >> Ameya, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate the conversation. I'll give you the final word. What should people know about Cequence Security? How would you give the pitch? You go, you know, quick summary, what's going on? >> Yeah. So very excited to be in this space. We sort of are the largest security of API security vendor in the space in terms of revenue, the largest volume of API traffic that we process. And we are just getting started. This is a exciting journey we are on, we are very happy to serve the, you know, Fortune 50, you know, global 200 customers that we have, and we are expanding into many geographies and locations. And so look for some exciting updates from us in the coming days. >> Well, congratulations on your success. Love the approach, love the scale. I think scale's a new competitive advantage. I think that's the new lock-in if you're good, and your scaling providing a lot of benefits. So Ameya, thank you for coming, sharing the story. Looking forward to chatting again soon. >> Thank you very much. Thanks for having us. >> Okay. This is a CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, here at Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. (cheerful music)

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stew Minimum and the host of Cloud Native Insights. And the threat that we've been pulling on with Cloud Native is that we needed to be able to take advantage of the innovation and agility that cloud in the ecosystem around it can bring, not just the location. It's It's not just the journey, but how do I take advantage of something today and keep being able to move for Happy to welcome back to the program one of our regulars and someone that I've had lots of discussion about? Cloud Cloud. Native Serverless So Cory Quinn, the Keith Cloud economists at the Duck Bill Group. Corey, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. >>It is great to see me. And I always love having the opportunity to share my terrible opinions with people who then find themselves tarred by the mere association. And there's certainly no exception to use, too. Thanks for having me back. Although I question your judgment. >>Yeah, you know, what was that? Pandora's box. I open when I was like Hey, Corey, let's try you on video so much. And if people go out, they can look at your feet and you've spent lots of money on equipment. You have a nice looking set up. I guess you missed that one window of opportunity to get your hair cut in San Francisco during the pandemic. But be doesn't may Corey, why don't you give our audience just the update You went from a solo or mentor of the cloud? First you have a partner and a few other people, and you're now you've got economists. >>Yes, it comes down to separating out. What I'm doing with my nonsense from other people's other people's careers might very well be impacted by it considered tweet of mine. When you start having other clouds, economists and realize, okay, this is no longer just me we're talking about here. It forces a few changes. I was told one day that I would not be the chief economist. I smile drug put on a backlog item to order a new business cards because it's not like we're going to a lot of events these days, and from my perspective, things continue mostly a base. The back. To pretend people now means that there's things that my company does that I'm no longer directly involved with, which is a relief, that absolutely, ever. But it's been an interesting right. It's always strange. Is the number one thing that people who start businesses say is that if they knew what they were getting into, they'd never do it again. I'm starting to understand that. >>Yeah, well, Corey, as I mentioned you, and I have had lots of discussions about Cloud about multi Cloud server. Listen, like when you wrote an article talking about multi cloud is a worse practice. One of the things underneath is when I'm using cloud. I should really be able to leverage that cloud. One of the concerns that when you and I did a cube con and cloud native con is does multi cloud become a least common denominator? And a comment that I heard you say was if I'm just using cloud and the very basic services of it, you know, why don't I go to an AWS or an azure which have hundreds of services? Maybe I could just find something that is, you know, less expensive because I'm basically thinking of it as my server somewhere else. Which, of course, cloud is much more than so you do with a lot of very large companies that help them with their bills. What difference there differentiates the companies that get advantage from the cloud versus those that just kind of fit in another location, >>largely the stories that they tell themselves internally and how they wind up adapting to cloud. If the reason I got into my whole feel about why multi cloud is a worst practice is that of you best practices a sensible defaults, I view multi cloud as a ridiculous default. Sure, there are cases where it's important, and so I don't say I'm not suggesting for a second that those people who are deciding to go down that are necessarily making wrong decisions. But when you're building something from scratch with this idea toward taking a single workload and deploying it anywhere in almost every case, it's the wrong decision. Yes, there are going to be some workloads that are better suited. Other places. If we're talking about SAS, including that in the giant wrapper of cloud definition in terms of what was then, sure you would be nuts to wind of running on AWS and then decide you're also going to go with codecommit instead of git Hub. That's not something sensible people to use get up or got sick. But when I am suggesting, is that the idea of building absolutely every piece of infrastructure in a way that avoids any of the differentiated offerings that your primary cloud provider uses is just generally not a great occasionally you need to. But that's not the common case, and people are believing that it is >>well, and I'd like to dig a little deeper. Some of those differentiated services out there there are concerned, but some that said, You know, I think back to the past model. I want to build something. I can have it live ever anywhere. But those differentiated services are something that I should be able to get value out of it. So do you have any examples, or are there certain services that you have his favorites that you've seen customers use? And they say, Wow, it's it's something that is effective. It's something that is affordable, and I can get great value out of this because I didn't have to build it. And all of these hyper scaler have lots of engineers built, building lots of cool things. And I want to take advantage of that innovation. >>Sure, that's most of them. If we're being perfectly honest, there are remarkably few services that have no valid use cases for no customer anywhere. A lot of these solve an awful lot of pain that customers have. Dynamodb is a good example of this Is that one a lot of folks can relate to. It's super fast, charges you for what you use, and that is generally yet or a provision Great. But you don't have to worry about instances. You have to worry about scaling up or scaling down in the traditional sense. And that's great. The problem is, is great. How do I migrate off of this on to something else? Well, that's a good question. And if that is something that you need to at least have a theoretical exodus for, maybe Dynamo DV is the wrong service for you to pick your data store personally. If I have to build for a migration in mind on no sequel basis, I'll pick mongo DB every time, not because it's any easier to move it, but because it's so good at losing data, that'll have remarkably little bit left. Migrate. >>Yeah, Corey, of course. One of the things that you help customers with quite a bit is on the financial side of it. And one of the challenges if I moved from my environment and I move to the public cloud, is how do I take advantage not only of the capability to the cloud but the finances of the cloud. I've talked to many customers that when you modernize your pull things apart, maybe you start leveraging serverless capabilities. And if I tune things properly, I can have a much more affordable solution versus that. I just took my stuff and just shoved it all in the cloud kind of a traditional lift and shift. I might not have good economics. When I get to the cloud. What do you see along those lines? >>I'd say you're absolutely right with that assessment. If you are looking at hitting break even on your cloud migration in anything less than five years, it's probably wrong. The reason to go to Cloud is not to save money. There are edge cases where it makes sense, Sure, but by and large you're going to wind up spending longer in the in between state that you would believe eventually you're going to give up and call it hybrid game over. And at some point, if you stall long enough, you'll find that the cloud talent starts reaching out of your company. At which point that Okay, great. Now we're stuck in this scenario because no one wants to come in and finish the job is harder than we thought we landed. But it becomes this story of not being able to forecast what the economics are going to look like in advanced, largely because people don't understand where their workloads start and stop what the failure modes look like and how that's going to manifest itself in a cloud provider environment. That's why lift and shift is popular. People hate, lift and ship. It's a terrible direction to go in. Yeah, so are all the directions you can go in as far as migrating, short of burning it to the ground for insurance money and starting over, you've gotta have a way to get from where you are, where you're going. Otherwise, migration to be super simple. People with five weeks of experience and a certification consult that problem. It's but how do you take what's existing migrated end without causing massive outages or cost of fronts? It's harder than it looks. >>Well, okay, I remember Corey a few years ago when I talk to customers that were using AWS. Ah, common complaint was we had to dedicate an engineer just to look at the finances of what's happening. One of the early episodes I did of Cloud Native Insights talked to a company that was embracing this term called Been Ops. We have the finance team and the engineering team, not just looking back at the last quarter, but planning understanding what the engineering impacts were going forward so that the developers, while they don't need tohave all the spreadsheets and everything else, they understand what they architect and what the impact will be on the finance side. What are you hearing from your customers out there? What guidance do you give from an organizational standpoint as to how they make sure that their bill doesn't get ridiculous? >>Well, the term fin ops is a bit of a red herring in there because people immediately equate it back to cloud ability before their app. Geo acquisitions where the fin ops foundation vendors are not allowed to join except us, and it became effectively a marketing exercise that was incredibly poorly executed in sort of poisoned the well. Now the finance foundations been handed off to the Cloud Native Beauty Foundation slash Lennox Foundation. Maybe that's going to be rehabilitated, but we'll have to find out. One argument I made for a while was that developers do not need to know what the economic model in the cloud is going to be. As a general rule, I would stand by that. Now someone at your company needs to be able to have those conversations of understanding the ins and outs of various costs models. At some point you hit a point of complexity we're bringing in. Experts solve specific problems because it makes sense. But every developer you have does not need to sit with 3 to 5 days course understanding the economics of the cloud. Most of what they need to know if it's on a business card, it's on an index card or something small that is carplay and consult business and other index ramos. But the point is, is great. Big things cost more than small things. You're not charged for what you use your charger for. What you forget to turn off and being able to predict your usage model in advance is important and save money. Data transfers Weird. There are a bunch of edge cases, little slice it and ribbons, but inbound data transfer is generally free. Outbound, generally Austin arm and a leg and architect accordingly. But by and large for most development product teams, it's built something and see if it works first. We can always come back later and optimize costs as you wind up maturing the product offering. >>Yeah, Cory, it's some of those sharp edges I've love learning about in your newsletter or some of your online activities there, such as you talked about those egress fees. I know you've got a nice diagram that helps explain if you do this, it costs a lot of money. If you do this, it's gonna cost you. It cost you a lot less money. Um, you know, even something like serverless is something that in general looks like. It should be relatively expensive, but if you do something wrong, it could all of a sudden cost you a lot of money. You feel that companies are having a better understanding so that they don't just one month say, Oh my God, the CFO called us up because it was a big mistake or, you know, where are we along that maturation of cloud being a little bit more predictable? >>Unfortunately, no. Where near I'd like us to be it. The story that I think gets missed is that when you're month over, month span is 20% higher. Finance has a bunch of questions, but if they were somehow 20% lower, they have those same questions. They're trying to build out predictive models that align. They're not saying you're spending too much money, although by the time the issues of the game, yeah, it's instead help us understand and predict what's happening now. Server less is a great story around that, because you can tie charges back to individual transactions and that's great. Except find me a company that's doing that where the resulting bill isn't hilariously inconsequential. A cloud guru Before they bought Lennox, I can't get on stage and talk about this. It serverless kind of every year, but how? They're spending $600 a month in Lambda, and they have now well, over 100 employees. Yeah, no one cares about that money. You can trace the flow of capital all you want, but it grounds up to No one cares at some point that changes. But there's usually going to be far bigger fish to front with their case, I would imagine, given, you know, stream video, they're probably gonna have some data transfer questions that come into play long before we talk about their compute. >>Yeah, um, what else? Cory, when you look at the innovation in the cloud, are there things that common patterns that you see that customers are missing? Some of the opportunities there? How does the customers that you talk to, you know, other than reading your newsletter, talking Teoh their systems integrator or partner? How are they doing it? Keeping up with just the massive amount of change that happens out >>there. Get customers. AWS employees follow the newsletter specifically to figure out what's going on. We've long since passed a Rubicon where I can talk incredibly convincingly about services that don't really exist. And Amazon employees won't call me out on the joke that I've worked in there because what the world could ever say that and then single. It's well beyond any one person's ability to keep it all in their head. So what? We're increasingly seeing even one provider, let alone the rest. Their events are outpacing them and no one is keeping up. And now there's the persistent, never growing worry that there's something that just came out that could absolutely change your business for the better. And you'll never know about it because you're too busy trying to keep up with all the other number. Every release the cloud provider does is important to someone but none of its important everyone. >>Yeah, Corey, that's such a good point. When you've been using tools where you understand a certain way of doing things, how do you know that there's not a much better way of doing it? So, yeah, I guess the question is, you know, there's so much out there. How do people make sure that they're not getting left behind or, you know, keep their their their understanding of what might be able to be used >>the right answer. There, frankly, is to pick a direction and go in it. You can wind up in analysis paralysis issues very easily. And if you talk about what you've done on the Internet, the number one responsible to get immediately is someone suggesting an alternate approach you could have taken on day one. There is no one path forward for any six, and you can second guess yourself that the problem is that you have to pick a direction and go in it. Make sure it makes sense. Make sure the lines talk to people who know what's going on in the space and validate it out. But you're going to come up with a plan right head in that direction, I assure you, you are probably not the only person doing it unless you're using. Route 53 is a database. >>You know, it's an interesting thing. Corey used to be said that the best time to start a project was a year ago. But you can't turn back time, so you should start it now. I've been saying for the last few years the best time to start something would be a year from now, so you can take advantage of the latest things, but you can't wait a year, so you need to start now. So how how do you make sure you maintain flexibility but can keep moving projects moving forward? E think you touched on that with some of the analysis paralysis, Anything else as to just how do you make sure you're actually making the right bets and not going down? Some, you know, odd tangent that ends up being a debt. >>In my experience, the biggest problem people have with getting there is that they don't stop first to figure out alright a year from now. If this project has succeeded or failed, how will we know they wind up building these things and keeping them in place forever, despite the fact that cost more money to run than they bring in? In many cases, it's figure out what success looks like. Figure out what failure looks like. And if it isn't working, cut it. Otherwise, you're gonna wind up, went into this thing that you've got to support in perpetuity. One example of that one extreme is AWS. They famously never turn anything off. Google on the other spectrum turns things off as a core competence. Most folks wind up somewhere in the middle, but understand that right now between what? The day I start building this today and the time that this one's of working down the road. Well, great. There's a lot that needs to happen to make sure this is a viable business, and none of that is going to come down to, you know, build it on top of kubernetes. It's going to come down. Is its solving a problem for your customers? Are people they're people in to pay for the enhancement. Anytime you say yes to that project, you're saying no to a bunch of others. Opportunity Cost is a huge thing. >>Yeah, so it's such an important point, Cory. It's so fundamental when you look at what what cloud should enable is, I should be able to try more things. I should be able to fail fast on, and I shouldn't have to think about, you know, some cost nearly as much as I would in the past. We want to give you the final word as you look out in the cloud. Any you know, practices, guidelines, you can give practitioners out there as to make sure that they are taking advantage of the innovation that's available out there on being able to move their company just a little bit faster. >>Sure, by and large, for the practitioners out there, if you're rolling something out that you do not understand, that's usually a red flag. That's been my problem, to be blunt with kubernetes or an awful lot of the use cases that people effectively shove it into. What are you doing? What if the business problem you're trying to solve and you understand all of its different ways that it can fail in the ways that will help you succeed? In many cases, it is stupendous overkill for the scale of problem most people are throwing. It is not a multi cloud answer. It is not the way that everyone is going to be doing it or they'll make fun of you under resume. Remember, you just assume your own ego. In this sense, you need to deliver an outcome. You don't need to improve your own resume at the expense of your employer's business. One would hope, >>Well, Cory, always a pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for joining me on the cloud. Native insights. Thank you. Alright. Be sure to check out silicon angle dot com if you click on the cloud. There's a whole second for cloud Native insights on your host to minimum. And I look forward to hearing more from you and your cloud Native insights Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> live from New York. It's the Q covering AWS Global Summit 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service, is >> welcome back here in New York City on stew Minimum. My co host is Corey Quinn. In the keynote this morning, Warner Vogel's made some new announcements what they're doing and also brought out a couple of customers who are local and really thrilled and excited to have on the program the C i O and E V P from Finn Ra here in New York City. Steve Randall, thanks so much for joining us. You're welcome. Thank you. All right, so, you know, quite impressive. You know when when I say one of those misunderstood words out there to talk about scale and you talk about speed and you know, you were you know, I'm taking so many notes in your keynote this 1 500,000 compute note. Seven terabytes worth of new data daily with half a trillion validation checks per day, some pretty impressive scale, and therefore, you know, it's I t is not the organ that kind of sits in the basement, and the business doesn't think about it business and I t need to be in lobster. So, you know, I think most people are familiar with in Rome. But maybe give us the kind of bumper sticker as Thio What dinner is today and you know, the >> the organization. Yeah, I started it Fender and 2013. I thought I was gonna come into a typical regulator, which is, as you alluded to technologies, kind of in the basement. Not very important, not strategic. And I realized very quickly two things. Number one, The team was absolutely talented. A lot of the people that we've got on her team came from start ups and other technology companies. Atypical financial service is and the second thing is we had a major big data challenge on our hands. And so the decision to go to the cloud S I started in March 2013. By July of that year, I was already having dialogue with our board of directors about having to go to the cloud in orderto handle the data. >> Yeah, so you know, big data was supposed to be that bit flip that turned that. Oh, my God. I have so much data to Oh, yea, I can monetize and do things with their data. So give us a little bit of that, That data journey And what? That that you talk about the flywheel? The fact that you've got inside Finneran. >> Yeah. So we knew that we needed the way were running at that time on data warehouse appliances from E, M. C. And IBM. And which a data warehouse appliance. You go back 10 15 years. That was where big data was running. But those machines are vertically scalable, and when you hit the top of the scale, then you've got to buy another bigger one, which might not be available. So public cloud computing is all about horizontal scale at commodity prices to things that those those data data warehouse appliance didn't have. They were vertical and proprietary, inexpensive. And so the key thing was to come up to select the cloud vendor between Google, IBM, You know, the usual suspects and architect our applications properly so that we wouldn't be overly vendor dependent on the cloud provider and locked in if you will, and that we could have flexibility to use commodity software. So we standardized in conjunction with our move to the public cloud on open source software, which we continue today. So no proprietary software for the most part running in the cloud. And we were just very smart about architect ing our systems at that point in time to make sure that those opportunities prevailed. And the other thing I would say, this kind of the secret of our success Is it because we were such early adopters we were in the financial service industry and a regulator toe boots that we had engineering access to the cloud providers and the big, big date open source software vendors. So we actually had the engineers from eight of us and other firms coming in to help us learn how to do it, to do it right. And that's been part of our culture ever since. >> One thing that was, I guess a very welcome surprise is normally these keynotes tend to fall into almost reductive tropes where first, we're gonna have some Twitter for pet style start up talking about all the higher level stuff they're doing, and then we're gonna have a large, more serious company. Come in and talk about how we moved of'em from our data center into the cloud gay Everyone clap instead, there was it was very clear. You're using higher level, much higher level service is on top of the cloud provider. It's not just running the M somewhere else in the same way you would on premise. Was that a transitional step that you went through or did you effectively when you went all in, start leveraging those higher service is >> okay. It's a great question. And ah, differentiator for us versus a lot. A lot of the large organizations with a legacy footprint that would not be practical to rewrite. We had outsourced I t entirely in the nineties E T s and it was brought back in source in in house early in this decade. And so we had kind of a fresh, fresh environment. Fresh people, no legacy, really other than the data warehouse appliances. So we had a spring a springboard to rewrite our abs in an agile way to be fully cloud enabled. So we work with eight of us. We work with Cloudera. We work with port works with all the key vendors at that time and space to figure out how to write Ah wraps so they could take most advantage of what the cloud was offering at that time. And that continues to prevail today. >> That that's a great point because, you know so often it's that journey to cloud. But it's that application modernization, that journey. Right. So bring us in little inside there is. You know how it is. You know, what expertise did Finn Ra have there? I mean, you don't want to be building applications. It is the open stuff source. The things wasn't mature enough. How much did they have toe help work, you know, Would you call it? You know, collaboration? >> Yeah. The first year was hard because I would have, you know, every high performance database vendor, and I see a number of them here today. I'm sure they're paddling their AWS version now, but they had a a private, proprietary database version. They're saying if you want to handle the volumes that you're seeing and predicting you really need a proprietary, they wouldn't call it proprietary. But it was essentially ah, very unique solution point solution that would cause vendor dependency. And so and then and then my architects internally, we're saying, No way, Wanna go open source because that's where the innovation and evolution is gonna be fastest. And we're not gonna have vendor Lock in that decision that that took about a year to solidify. But once we went that way, we never looked back. So from that standpoint, that was a good bad, and it made sense. The other element of your question is, how How much of this did we do on our own, rely on vendors again? The kind of dirty little secret of our beginnings here is that we ll average the engineer, you know, So typically a firm would get the sales staff, right. We got the engineers we insisted on in orderto have them teach our engineers how to do these re architectures to do it right. Um and we use that because we're in the financial service industry as a regulator, right? So they viewed us as a reference herbal account that would be very valuable in their portfolio. So in many regards, that was way scratch each other's back. But ultimately, the point isn't that their engineers trained our engineers who trained other engineers. And so when I when I did the, uh um keynote at the reinvented 2016 sixteen one of my pillars of our success was way didn't rely overly on vendors. In the end, we trained 2016 1 5 to 600 of our own staff on how to do cloud architectures correctly. >> I think at this point it's very clear that you're something of an extreme outlier in that you integrate by the nature of what you do with very large financial institutions. And these historically have not been firms that have embraced the cloud with speed and enthusiasm that Fenner has. Have you found yourself as you're going in this all in on the cloud approach that you're having trouble getting some of those other larger financial firms to meet you there, or is that not really been a concern based upon fenders position with an ecosystem? >> Um, I would say that five years ago, very rare, I would say, You know, we've had a I made a conscious effort to be very loud in the process of conferences about our journey because it has helped us track talent. People are coming to work for us as a senior financial service. The regulator that wouldn't have considered it five years ago, and they're doing it because they want to be part of this experience that we're having, but it's a byproduct of being loud, and the press means that a lot of firms are saying, Well, look what Fender is doing in the cloud Let's go talk to them So we've had probably at this 50.200 firms that have come defender toe learn from our experience. We've got this two hour presentation that kind of goes through all the aspects of how to do it right, what, what to avoid, etcetera, etcetera. And, um, you know, I would say now the company's air coming into us almost universally believe it's the right direction. They're having trouble, whether it's political issues, technology dat, you name it for making the mo mentum that we've made. But unlike 45 years ago, all of them recognize that it's it's the direction to go. That's almost undisputed at this point. And you're opening comment. Yeah, we're very much an outlier. We've moved 97 plus percent of our APS 99 plus percent of our data. We are I mean, the only thing that hasn't really been moved to the cloud at this point our conscious decisions, because those applications that are gonna die on the vine in the data center or they don't make sense to move to the cloud for whatever reason. >> Okay, You've got almost all your data in the cloud and you're using open source technology. Is Cory said if I was listening to a traditional financial service company, you know, they're telling me all the reasons that for governance and compliance that they're not going to do it. So you know, why do you feel safe putting your your data in the cloud? >> Uh, well, we've looked at it. So, um, I spent my first year of Finn run 2013 early, 2014 but mostly 2013. Convincing our board of directors that moving our most critical applications to the public cloud was going to be no worse from the information security standpoint than what we're doing in our private data centers. That presentation ultimately made it to other regulators, major firms on the street industry, lobbyist groups like sifma nephi. AP got a lot of air time, and it basically made the point using logic and reasoning, that going to the cloud and doing it right not doing it wrong, but doing it right is at least is secure from a physical logical standpoint is what we were previously doing. And then we went down that route. I got the board approval in 2015. We started looking at it and realizing, Wait a minute, what we're doing here encrypting everything, using micro segmentation, we would never. And I aren't doing this in our private data center. It's more secure. And at that point in time, a lot of the analysts in our industry, like Gardner Forrester, started coming out with papers that basically said, Hey, wait a minute, this perception the cloud is not as safe is on Prem. That's wrong. And now we look at it like I can't imagine doing what we're doing now in a private data center. There's no scale. It's not a secure, etcetera, etcetera. >> And to some extent, when you're dealing with banks and start a perspective now and they say, Oh, we don't necessarily trust the cloud. Well, that's interesting. Your regulator does. In other cases, some tax authorities do. You provided tremendous value just by being as public as you have been that really starts taking the wind out of the sails of the old fear uncertainty and doubt. Arguments around cloud. >> Yeah, I mean, doubts around. It's not secure. I don't have control over it. If you do it right, those are those are manageable risks, I would argue. In some cases, you've got more risk not doing it. But I will caution everything needs to be on the condition that you've got to do it right. Sloppy migration in the cloud could make you less secure. So there there are principles that need to be followed as part of >> this. So Steve doing it right. You haven't been sitting still. One of the things that really caught my attention in the keynote was you said the last four years you've done three re architectures and what I want. Understand? You said each time you got a better price performance, you know, you do think so. How do you make sure you do it right? Yet have flexibility both in an architect standpoint, and, you know, don't you have to do a three year reserves intense for some of these? How do you make sure you have the flexibility to be able to take advantage of you? Said the innovation in automation. >> Yeah. Keep moving forward with. That's Ah, that's a deep technical question. So I'm gonna answer it simply and say that we've architected the software and hardware stack such. There's not a lot of co dependency between them, and that's natural. I t. One on one principle, but it's easier to do in the cloud, particularly within AWS, who kind of covers the whole stacks. You're not going to different vendors that aren't integrated. That helps a lot. But you also have architect it, right? And then once you do that and then you automate your software development life cycle process, it makes switching out anyone component of that stack pretty easy to do and highly automated, in some cases completely automated. And so when new service is our new versions of products, new classes of machines become available. We just slip him in, and the term I use this morning mark to market with Moore's Law. That's what we aspire to do to have the highest levels of price performance achievable at the time that it's made available. That wasn't possible previously because you would go by ah hardware kit and then you'd appreciate it for five years on your books at the end of those five years, it would get kind of have scale and reliability problems. And then you go spend tens of millions of dollars on a new kit and the whole cycle would start over again. That's not the case here. >> Machine learning something you've been dipping into. Tell us the impact, what that has and what you see. Going forward. >> It's early, but we're big believers in machine learning. And there's a lot of applications for at Venera in our various investigatory and regulatory functions. Um, again, it's early, but I'm a big believer that the that the computer stored scale, commodity costs in the public cloud could be tapped into and lever it to make Aye aye and machine learning. Achieve what everybody has been talking about it, hoping to achieve the last several decades. We're using it specifically right now in our surveillance is for market manipulation and fraud. So fraudsters coming in and manipulating prices in the stock market to take advantage of trading early days but very promising in terms of what it's delivered so far. >> Steve want to give you the final word. You know, your thank you. First of all for being vocal on this. It sounds like there's a lot of ways for people to understand and see. You know what Fenner has done and really be a you know, an early indicator. So, you know, give us a little bit. Look forward, you know what more? Where's Finn Ra going next on their journey. And what do you want to see more from, You know, Amazon and the ecosystem around them to make your life in life, your peers better. >> Yes. So some of the kind of challenges that Amazon is working with us and partnering Assan is getting Ah Maur, automated into regional fell over our our industries a little bit queasy about having everything run with a relatively tight proximity in the East Coast region. And while we replicate our data to the to the other East region, we think AIM or co production environment, like we have across the availability zones within the East, would be looked upon with Maur advocacy of that architecture. From a regulatory standpoint, that would be one another. One would be, um, one of the big objections to moving to a public cloud vendor like Amazon is the vendor dependency and so making sure that we're not overly technically dependent on them is something that I think is a shared responsibility. The view that you could go and run a single application across multiple cloud vendors. I don't think anybody has been able to successfully do that because of the differences between providers. You could run one application in one vendor and another application in another vendor. That's fine, but that doesn't really achieve the vendor dependency question and then going forward for Finn or I mean, riel beauty is if you architected your applications right without really doing any work at all, you're going to continuously get the benefits of price performance as they go forward. You're not kind of locked into a status quo, So even without doing much of any new work on our applications, we're gonna continue to get the benefits. That's probably outside of the elastic, massive scale that we take advantage of. That's probably the biggest benefit of this whole journey. >> Well, Steve Randall really appreciate >> it. >> Thank you so much for sharing the journey of All right for Cory cleanups to minimum back with lots more here from eight Summit in New York City. Thanks for watching the cue

(upbeat music) >> Live from San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2019. Brought to you by IBM >> Welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier and we are on a rainy San Francisco day. Day three of theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2019 here to talk shopping. One of my favorite topics. We have Katie Dunlap VP of Global Unified rather Commerce and Marketing for Bluewolf part of IBM. Katie welcome to theCUBE. >> Welcome, thank you. >> And from Salesforce we have Ben Cesare Senior Director of Global Industry Retail Solutions. Ben it's great to have you on our program. >> How are you? >> Excellent. >> Good. >> Even though we are at the rejuvenated Moscone Center which is fantastic and I think all of the hybrid multi cloud have opened upon San Francisco. >> Right. >> It's a very soggy day. So Katie IBM announced a partnership with Salesforce a couple of years ago. >> Right. >> Just yesterday John and I were chatting. We heard Ginni Rometty your CEO talk about IBM is number one implementer of Salesforce. Talk to us a little bit about the partnership before we get into some specific examples with that. >> So we know that part of that partnership it's really to leverage the best of the technology from Salesforce as well as IBM and ways that we together married together create opportunities for the industry and specifically here today we're talking about retail. >> So on the retail side Salesforce as a great SAS company they keep on blowing the records on the numbers performance wise. SAS business has proven it's a cloud business but retails is a data business. >> Yes. >> So how does IBM look at that? What's the relationship with retail? What's the solution? >> Yeah. >> And what are people looking at Salesforce for retail. >> Yeah, I think it's really important to understand where our strengths are and I think when you talk about Salesforce you talk about Marketing Cloud and Commerce Cloud, Service Cloud. We call that the engagement layer. That's how we can really interact with our consumers with our shoppers. But at the same time to really have a great connection with consumers you need to have great data. You need have great insights. You need to understand what's happening with all the information that drives choices for retailers and that's why the relationship with IBM is absolutely so strong and it is a data driven relationship. Together I guess you can see the customers in the middle. So we have our engagement layer and a data layer. Together we satisfy the customer. >> Lisa what's the solution specifically because obviously you guys going to market together to explain the tactical relationship. You guys join sale, is it an integration? >> Sure. So what we have done given the disruption that's happening right now in the retail space and with the customer at the center of that conversation we've been looking at ways that what the native functionality for Salesforce is Einstein as an intelligent layer and for IBM it's Watson. So where do they complement one another? And so looking at retail with commerce and marketing and service as the center of that conversation and engagement layer. How are we activating and working with a customer from a collection of data information standpoint and activating that data all through supply chain. So the experience is not just the front experience that you and I have when we go to a site it's actually how and when is that delivered to me. If I have an issue how am I going to return that. So we've looked at the entire customer journey and looked at ways that we can support and engage along the way. So for us, we're looking at as you see retail and the way it's evolving is that we're no longer just talking about that one experience where you're actually adding to your cart and your buying. It goes all the way through servicing that customer returning and making sure that information that's specific to me. And if I can choose how I'm going to have that inventory sent to me and those products sent to me. That's exactly what we're looking to do. >> So then the retailer like a big clothing store is much more empowered than they've ever been. Probably really demanded by us consumers who want to be able to do any transaction anywhere started on my phone finish on a tablet, etc. So I can imagine maybe Ben is this like a Watson and Einstein working together to say take external data. Maybe it's weather data for example and combine those external data sources with what a retailer has within their customer database and Salesforce to create very personalized experiences for us shoppers as consumers. >> Right, and where retailers really can grow in terms of the future is really accessing all that data. I think if you look at some of the statistics retailers have up to 29 different systems of records and that's why some of our experiences are very good some of our experiences are not very good. So together if we can collapse that data in a uniform way that really drives personalization, contextual selling so you can actually see what you're buying why you're buying it, why it's just for me. That's the next level and I must say with all the changes in the industry there's some things that will never change and that is consumers want the right product, the right price, the right place and the right time. All enveloped in a great customer experience. That will never change but today we have data that can inform that strategy and when I was a senior merchant at Macy's years ago, I had no data. I had to do a lot of guessing and when mistakes are made that's when retailers have a problem. So if retailers are using data to it's benefit it just make sure that the customer experiences exceptional. And that's what we strive to do together. >> And I can build on that if we're thinking like specifically how we're engaged from a technology perspective. If I'm a merchandiser and I decide I want to run a promotion for New York and I want to make sure before I run that promotion that I have the right inventory and that I not only I'm I creating the right message but I have the information that I need in order to make that successful. One of the things that we partner with Salesforce on is the engagement layer being Salesforce. But in the back end we have access to something called Watson Embedded Business Agent and that business agent actually goes out and talks to all the disparate systems. So it doesn't have to be solutions that are necessarily a homegrown by IBM or Salesforce Watson could actually integrate directly with them and sits on top. So as a merchandiser I can ask the question and receive information back from supply chain. Yes there's enough product in New York for you to run this promotion. It can go out and check to see if there's any disruption that's expected and check in with weather so that as on the back end from an operation standpoint I'm empowered or the right data in order to run those promotions and be successful. >> It's interesting one of the things that comes up with her this expression from IBM. There's no AI without IA information architecture. You talk about systems of record all this silo databases. There's low latency you need to be real time in retail. So this is a data problem, right? So this is where AI really could fit in. I see that happening. The question that I have as a consumer is what's in it for me? Right? So Ben, tell us about the changes in retail because certainly online buying mobile is happening. But what are some of the new experiences that end users and consumers are seeing that are becoming new expectations? What's the big trend in retail? >> Well there's two paths they're your expectations as a consumer, then there's the retailer path and how they can meet your expectations. So let's talk about you first. So what you always want is a great customer experience. That's what you want. And what defines that is are they serving me the products I want when I want them? Are they delivering them on time? Do the products work? If I have a problem, how am I treated? How am I served? And these are all the things that we address with the Salesforce solutions. Now let's talk about the retailer. What's important to the retailer is next retailer myself. It was important that I understood what is my right assortment? And that's hard because you have a broad audience of consumers, you have regional or local requirements. So you want to understand what's the right assortment and working with IBM with their (mumbles) optimizer that helps us out in terms how we promote through our engagement later. That's number one. Number two, how about managing markdowns. This year there were over $300 billion in markdown through retailers. Half of those markdowns 150 billion were unplanned markdowns and that goes right to your P&L. So we want to make sure that the things we do satisfy the consumer but not at the expense of the retailer. The retailer has to succeed. So by using IBM supply chain data information we can properly service you. >> It's interesting we see the trend in retail I mean financial services for early on. >> Yeah. >> High-frequency trading, use of data. That kind of mindset is coming to retail where if you're not a data driven or data architecturally thinking about it. >> Yeah. >> The profit will drop. >> Yeah. >> Unplanned markdowns and other things and inventory variety of things. This is a critical new way to really reimagine retail. >> Yeah retail has become such a ubiquitous term there's retail banking, there's retail in every parts of our life. It's not just the store or online but it's retail everywhere and someone is selling their services to you. So I think the holy grail is really understanding you specifically. And it's not just about historical transact which you bought but behavioral data. What interests you. What are the trends and data has become a much broader term. It's just not numbers. Data is what are your trends? What are you saying on social media? What are you tweeting out? What are you reading.? What videos are you viewing? All that together really gives a retailer information to better serve you. So data is really become exponential in it's use and in it's form. >> So I'm curious what you guys see this retails it's very robust retail use case as driving in the future. We just heard yesterday one of the announcements Watson anywhere. I'm curious leveraging retail as an example and the consumerization of almost any industry because we expect to have things so readily and as you both point out data is commerce. Where do you think this will go from here with Watson Einstein and some of the other technologies? What's the next prime industry that really can benefit from what you're doing in retail? >> I think that I'll start and probably you can add that in as well. But I think that it's going to bleed into everything. So health and life sciences, consumer goods, product goods. We've talked about retail being all different kinds of things right now. Well CPG organizations are actually looking at ways to engage the customer directly and so having access utilizing Watson as a way of engaging and activating data to create insights that you've never thought of before. And so being able to stay a step ahead anticipate the needs stay on the bleeding edge of that interaction so that you're engaging customers in a whole new way is what we see and it's going to be proliferated into all kinds of different industries. >> Yes, every merchant every buyer wants to be able to predict. I mean won't that be incredible be able to see around the corner a bit and and while technologies don't give you the entire answer they can sure get you along the way to make better decisions. And I think with Watson and Einstein it does exactly that. It allows you to really predict what the customers want and that's very powerful. >> I want to get you guys perspective on some trend that we're seeing. We hear Ginni Rometty talk about chapter two of the cloud, you almost say there's a chapter two in retail, if you look at the certainly progressive way out front, doing all the new things. People doing the basics, getting an online presence, doing some basic things with mobile kind of setting the table a foundations, but they stare at the data problem. They almost like so it's a big problem. I know all this systems of record. How do I integrate it all in? So take us through a use case of how someone would attack that problem. Talking about an example a customer or a situation or use case that says okay guys help me. I'm staring at this data problem, I got the foundation set, I want to be a retail have to be efficient and innovative in retail, what do I do? Do I call IBM up, do I call Salesforce? How does that work? Take us through an example. >> So I think the first example that comes to mind is I think about Sally Beauty and how they're trying to approach the market and looking at who they are and many retailers right now because there's such a desire to understand data. Make sure that your cap. Everyone has enough data. But what is the right data to activate and use in that experience. So they came to us to kind of look at are we in the right space because right now everyone's trying to be everything to all people. So how do I pick the right place that I should be and am I in the right place with hair care and hair color? And the answer came back yes. You are in the right space. You need to just dive deeper into that and make sure that that experience online so they used a lot of information from their research on users to understand who their customers are, what they're expecting. And since they sell haircare product that is professional grade. How do I make sure that the customers are getting using it in the proper way. So they've actually created an entire infused way of deciding what exactly hair color you need and for me as a consumer, am I actually buying the right grade level from me and am I using that appropriately. And that data all came from doing the research because they are about to expand out and add in all kinds of things like (mumbles) where you're going into the makeup area but really helping them stay laser focused on what they need to do in order to be successful. >> Because you guys come and do like an audit engage with them on a professional service level. >> Yes, we went end-to-end >> And the buying SAS AI and then they plug in Salesforce. >> Yes, so they actually already had Salesforce. So they had the commerce solution marketing and service. They were fairly siloed so we go back to that whole conversation around data being held individually but not leveraging that as a unit in order to activate that experience for the consumer. What they have decided as a result of our work with them. So we came in and did a digital strategy. We're been involved as an agency of record to support them and how that entire brand strategy should be from an omnichannel perspective in the store, as well as that digital experience and then they actually just decided to go with IBM (mumbles) and use that as a way of activating from an omnichannel order orchestration standpoint. So all the way through that lifecycle we've been engaging them and supporting them and Watson obviously native to Salesforce's Einstein and they're leveraging that but they will be infusing Watson as part of their experience. >> So another benefit that Sally Beauty and imagine other retailers and other companies and other industries, we get is optimizing the use of Salesforce. It's a very ubiquitous tool but you mentioned, I think you mentioned Ben that in the previous days of many, many, many systems of records. So I imagine for Sally Beauty also not just to be able to deliver that personalized customer experience, track inventory but it's also optimizing their internal workforce productivity. But I'm curious-- >> Yes. >> For an organization of that size. What's the time to impact? They come in you guys do the joint implementation, go to market, the consulting, identify the phases of the project, how quickly did Sally Beauty start to see a positive impact on their business? >> I think they... Well there's immediate benefits, right? Because they are already Salesforce clients and so our team our IBM team was able to come in and infuse some best practices and their current existing site. So they've been able to leverage that and see that benefit through all the way through Black Friday and last holiday season. And now what they're seeing is they're on the verge of launching and relaunching their site in the next month and then implementing (mumbles) is a part of that. So they're still on the path in the journey to that success but they've already seen success based on the support that we've provided them. >> And what are some of the learnings you guys have seen with this? Obviously you got existing accounts. They take advantage of this, what are some of the learnings around this new engagement layer and with the data intelligence around AI? What's the learnings have you guys seen? >> Yeah I think the leading thing that I've learned is the power of personalization. It's incredibly powerful. And a good example is one of my favorite grocers and that's Kroger. If we really understand what Kroger has done, I'll talk about their business a bit. I'll talk about what they've been able to do. If you look at someone's shopper basket there's an amazing amount of things you can learn about that. You can learn if they're trying to be fit if they're on a diet. You can learn if their birthdays coming. You can learn if they just had a baby. You can learn so many different things. So with shopper basket analysis, you can understand exactly what coupons you send them. So when I get coupons digital or in my home they're all exactly what I buy. But to do that for 25-30 million top customers is a very difficult thing to do. So the ability to analyze the data, segment it and personalize it to you is extremely powerful and I think that's something that retailers and CPG organizations how they continue to try to do. We're not all the way there. Were probably 30% there I would say but personalization it's going to drive customer for life. That's what it's going to do and that's a massive learning for us. >> And the other thing too Ginni mentioned it in her keynote is the reasoning around the data. So it's knowing that the interest and around the personas, etc. But it's also those surprises. Knowing kind of in advance, maybe what someone might like given their situation-- >> Anticipating. >> And we were talking about this morning. Actually, we're talking about behavioral data and data has taken a different term. >> Data is again what are you doing online what are you talking about, what did you view. What video did you look at. For organizations that have access to that data tells me so much more about your interest right now today. And it's not just about a product but it's about a lifestyle. And if retails could understand your lifestyle that opens the door to so many products and services. So I think that's really what retailers are really into. >> My final question for you guys both of you get the answer. Answer will be great is what's the biggest thing that is going to happen in retail that people may not see coming that's going to be empowering and changing people's lives? What do you guys see as a trend that's knocking on the door or soon to be here and changing lives and empowering people and making them better in life. >> Yeah, I'll jump in on one real quick and I think it's already started but it's really phenomenon of commerce anywhere. Commerce used to be a very linear thing. You'd see an ad some would reach out to you and you buy something. The commerce now is happening wherever you are. You could be tweeting something on Instagram, you could be walking in an airport. You could be anywhere and you can actually execute a transaction. So I think the distance between media and commerce has totally collapsed. It's become real time and traditional media TV, print and radio is still a big part of media. A big part but there's distance. So I think it's the immediacy of media and a transaction. That's really going to take retailers and CPG customers by surprise. >> It changes the direct-to-consumer equation. >> It changes it. It does. >> And I think I would just build on that to say that people have relationships with their brands and the way that you can extend that in this and commerce anywhere is that people don't necessarily need to know they're in that commerce experience. They're actually having a relationship with that individual brand. They're seen for who they are as an individual not a segment. I don't fall into a segment that I'm kind of like this but I'm actually who I am and they're engaging. So the way that I think we're going to see things go as people thinking at more and more out of the box about how to make it more convenient for me and to not hide that it's a commerce experience but to make that more of an engagement conversation that-- >> People centric not person in a database. >> Exactly. >> That's right. >> Moving away from marketing from segmentation and more to individual conversations. >> Yeah I think you said it Ben it's the power of personalization. >> Power of personalization. >> Katie, Ben thanks so much for joining. >> Thank you. >> Talking about what you guys IBM and Salesforce are doing together and we're excited to see where that continues to go. >> Great. >> Thanks so much. >> Our pleasure, thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE live from IBM Think 19 I'm Lisa Martin for John Furrier stick around on Express. We'll be joining us shortly. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. Our first day of coverage at Dell Technologies World 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend. We are joined by a customer of Dell EMC, Fernando Almeida, the head of Infrastucture at Grupo Boticário. Welcome to theCUBE, Fernando. >> Thank you, thank you for invite me. I appreciate it. >> So you've been, as we were talking before we went live, an EMC customer, you're using VMware. This is your first Dell Technologies World, and you picked a big one. 14,000 attendees, loud music. There's a rock band going on there. Just an orientation, for our viewers, of Grupo Boticário. The largest perfume and cosmetics franchise in the world. So it automatically just smelled better when you got onto our side. (Fernando laughs) You guys have a presence in 1750 countries, cities, excuse me, and producing 300 million products every year. With that size of an organization, to be competitive, to offer different shaded products and a superior customer experience, and you think, we've got to transform our business. Where do you start? >> First of all, thank you for inviting me here. I'll talk a little bit about Grupo Boticário. Is a Brazilian company. It's maybe, I think 20,000 employees around the Brazil. Present in 11 countries. I dunno exactly counted but we present in 11 countries. The Grupo Boticário has 4,700 stores around the world. Yes, big, really big. The company is the-- I think is-- We don't have another company. We take companies like us, you know, it's the big one, McDonalds or Avon, no. Boticário is the biggest. The retail company start in 1977. Grupo Boticário is holding, responsible for five brands now: quem disse, berenice?, The Beauty Box, Eudora, and now Vult is the new one. The Grupo Boticário started in 2010, one roading responsible for five brands. It's a great company, a big one. >> Keith: It is big. >> Yeah. >> So, talk to us about some of the challenges being that big, that dispersed. As IT infrascture lead, people look at you to make sure that operation team's going. So talk about some of the pressures as you guys are competing. You really don't, as you say, you don't have a peer. But you have to stay ahead. Talk about some of those pressures of competing on your team. >> The most important, to support this company, we need to stay aware with the technology and they all help us to stay aware with the IT Transformation. My 2018 challenge is change the products, put on IT technology, the most products that they'll have, or other providers. Now when I see-- Do you guys know, see or know something like Butchcar stores, for example. When I go to these stores, we have a lot of lanes to pay. And now, after IT Transformation, we don't have more cashiers, for example. It's like Apple, for example. >> So I can come there and buy a product using my mobile phone. >> Exactly, exactly. This project lead was VMware products, Dell products, EMC legacy products, now Dell technology. I think this is a big project in 2018. >> So let's talk about, you said over 4,000, I think maybe 4700 stores. >> Fernando: Yes, yes. >> So you have a lot of people expecting this seamless, easy experience. Not just the consumers, but also the sales associates in the retail stores. Talk to us about the deployment model. As you needed to evolve IT to support that and allow your company to be competitive, from a technology standpoint, did you look at going from traditional infrastructure to converged, hyper converged? Talk to us about the transformation of your IT infrastructure as an enabler, of your digital transformation. >> Yes, good questions. Before a digital transformation we had, we lost our sales. Because a lot of lanes. >> You had a lot of customers like me, yeah. If there's a long, I can spend two hours shopping, long line-- >> Long line. >> I'm out of there. >> Go to another, you know it's crazy. After meeting with Dell, with VMware, I saw the-- I can't remember the products that I use. Airwatch. >> Keith: Yes. >> Yes, and they show us and it's pretty good to use here. Take care of the big store, to put these products, and I see the difference between a store with a cashier and the store without cashier. The sales grow up like 15%. >> Wow! >> Yeah, yeah. >> That's a dramatic improvement from the business bottom line perspective. >> Because the performance, agility. 15%, just one store. It's amazing. >> That's an amazing story. So Airwatch. VMware, I have to give them more credit. When they bought Airwatch, I can express my head, one billion dollar business. >> Fernando: Airwatch. >> Yeah, one billion dollar business. So it's amazing watching the growth for Airwatch and hearing your story. Can you talk about, you know, Michael Dell talks about Dell Technologies on top of Dell Technologies are best. Let's talk about the back end. Are you guys using some of the products that we saw on stage this morning, VxRail et cetera? >> Yes, yes, yes. We started out using VxRail this year, 2018. In the past, 2017, we changed storage. For example, we had mechanical discs. I can't remember the exact model, but we change for All Flash storage. The performance is pretty good. It's amazing. We put the offline stores, VxRail, Airwatch, all Dell Technology products, you know. Because of this, now we have 20, 25% more performance. It's really good for us. I think this is a big change for us and a big project when I talk about IT Transformation. >> One of the things that we hear often, and especially since the acquisition of the EMC Federation a couple of years ago, is IT leaders want to have seamlessness, simplicity, agility. Those are all keywords everybody needs to have them. But they want to have one stop, a one-stop-shop like Dell Technologies considers themselves. To be able to make digital transformation real. So you were using EMC acquisition, VMware as well. With Dell Technologies, is that allowing you to have this one-stop-shop location and be able to facilitate the transformation to ultimately meet customer demands, that are improving revenue and sales? >> Before the old technology, we have EMC products of course. But now, we have-- When I look at my point of view, the customer point of view, it's better after the change, after the merge, because we have just one company and a lot of products. I just talk to one person to buy a lot of products. It's more easy, it's more closed up (in Portuguese), it's more commitment. I think the portfolio right now is much better than before the merge, EMC with Dell. Now I think is better, much better. >> So let's talk about some of those sales and architecture meetings that you're having with Dell Technologies directly. What's different about that? 'Cause EMC will always come in and say "Oh, we have VMware, we have RSA, we have Pivotal." Unfortunately, they didn't have a server group. They didn't have a desktop group. Much, much bigger organization. One of the fears, is that they would become like their competitors and you'd go talk to a Dell Technologies rep, and there's just too much technology and they wouldn't be able to solution. It doesn't sound like that's been your experience. >> Well, before the merge, we used just EMC storage, only. Because I think, this is my opinion, I think the better products that EMC have in the past, before the merge, is the storage. And now, when I see Dell Technologies have kept the storage, but we have hyper convergence, we have VMware, together with this company. It is one company. For customers, I think it's much better. Just talk to one person like say, a few minutes ago. But, I'd think, when I see my environment in Boticário, I have a lot of challenges in this year because I need to say more. I need to put technology on my stores, to say more. I need to offer, for my final customer, a great product in agility, performance. If we have this, we have more sales, we have more stores. >> One of the things too that I was reading about getting ready for this show, is we're going to hear a lot about digital transformation, IT transformation, data. The volume continues to grow and grow and grow. And we have new technologies, emerging technologies: artificial intelligence, machine learning, IOT. How are you going to be able to leverage all of this data that you have across all of these stores. Data about customers, buying habits and things like that. How are you envisioning, in the future, leveraging emerging technologies to be able to, like you said, increase the number of stores, increase sales, and ultimately delight your customers? >> It's a surprise. (Keith laughs) I can't talk about it. >> Lisa: (laughs) Oh! >> It's really a surprise but you know, we have a great challenge when I think artificial intelligence and the other products, hyper convergence, block chain for example, but, it's a secret. I can't talk. >> It is a tough challenge. We hear the buzz words. I think I agree that it is a competitive advantage that I can take the stuff, stitch it together, and come up with a solution that's acting competitive and helps you to outsell your competition. So, I can appreciate that. Just one quick question about speeds and fees. A global company, a lot of data as you sell a lot more data. Michael said as you grow, the data grows, that you enable better use of the data. It feeds upon itself. What are the building blocks of your data platform? What technologies specifically are you using within Dell's storage portfolio? >> We use Airwatch, like I said. We use all-flash platforms. We use a lot of products, man. >> You're also using some BI-- >> VxRail, Isilon 2. Now we use Isilon 4 to support the stores. Of course, the most important to support the stores is all-flash storages and Airwatch. >> To sum up, you've already made big improvements to sales, to the customer in-store experience, to performance internally, as you mentioned switching to All-Flash Array. So you're well on your way in this digital transformation. We won't ask you any more questions about the secret sauce of using emerging technologies, but we look forward to hearing, maybe next year, what you're doing there to delight your customers. And we want to thank you for stopping by theCUBE, Fernando. >> I appreciate it, thank you. >> And you've been watching theCUBE. We want to thank you, as well. We are live, day one of Dell Technologies World 2018. I'm Lisa Martin, with my co-host Keith Townsend. Stick around, we'll be right back after a short break.

[Announcer]: Live from Orlando, Florida, It's the Cube. Covering ServiceNow Knowledge17. Brought to you by ServiceNow. (electronic music) >> Hi Everybody, we're back in Orlando, Florida. This is The Cube, the leader in live-tech coverage and we are covering ServiceNow Knowledge17, three days of wall-to-wall coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and my co-host, Jeff Fricke. Jeff, our fifth year doing Knowledge. >> Amazing. >> We've talked over the years about ServiceNow extending its platform into the line of business, and one of those areas is HR. We've had a number of guests on the HR and we're pleased to invite Deepak Bharadwaj, who is the general manager of the HR business unit. Great to see you Deepak, thanks for coming on again. >> Thanks Dave, pleasure. >> So off from the keynote this morning, I had tweeted out it was the best IT demo I'd ever seen. No technology, just people with footballs, soccer balls, taking us through an HR example. But, so before we get there, the keynote today. A huge audience, a lot of interest in HR and bringing ServiceNow to HR. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think what we recognized is HR is where a lot of these processes related life events start and then that has implications to many other departments. So, you think about onboarding, off boarding, transfers, relocations, external leave of absence. Almost all of these processes cut across all departments. And the department that gets the biggest workload often times is IT. So, one of the reasons we see all that interest from IT in HR type use cases is because they are at the receiving end of all of that action, if you will, and if we can solve it for IT, we solve it for HR, we are ultimately solving it for the employee and that's what we're all about. So, it's truly exciting to see the interest both in my HR topic keynote yesterday, as well as today. There are slightly different audiences. My topic keynote was more geared towards the HR audience and we actually have a lot of them at the show, which is always encouraging. And today's keynote was more geared towards what we call our IT champions who want to integrate HR to impress the platform and that's absolutely work we like to see as well. >> Yeah, so the momentum in the business is quite good. I know you guys don't break out the numbers specifically for your business unit but you talk about a lot of Pioneer Lightspeed HR customers. You gave some examples. One of the examples you gave was your recent, your personal experience. Everybody can relate to HR, but your recent name change. >> Yup. >> So give us an update, sort of on the business and talk a little bit more about why HR is so critical to ServiceNow. >> I think the opportunity to transform the enterprise is huge with HR, and just looking at the traction that we're seeing from the market place, it's almost the next adjacency after IT where there's just a lot of inefficiency. If you think about our work and lightspeed model, we're really going after unstructured work patterns and guess where the most unstructured work happens today. It's in HR. It's a nice adjacency for us. Plays well with our platform, the core of what we do with service management. And it's a market that's been underserved for years. Customers have told us, "This is what we would like you "to do." And that's how the HR business unit itself was formed, that's why I came here, that's how I got this job. And since then, we've just seen just dramatic traction, especially as the emphasis moves more and more towards making that experience truly consumerized, the service experience for the employee consumerized across all of the departments within the enterprise. So how do you treat your employees just like you would your customers? That's kind of a theme that you see cut across the entire costumer base, and they're really wanting to get on that bandwagon. And ServiceNow is an excellent platform to be accomplishing that. >> It's just so interesting how we see these great successes built in companies recently, just attacking unidentified inefficiency. The Cloud identified just a ridiculously low utilization rate at corporate data centers, and unlocked the value of that efficiency. Uber unlocked the inefficiency of all these cars sitting around not being used. And as you guys have identified, there's so much inefficiency in these unstructured processes that go cross multiple channels. Phone, text, email, Slack, Gerub, pick your favorite thing, they're all over the place. So, it's really this huge value opportunity to grab because it is just grossly inefficient, and almost so inefficient we don't even recognize that there's a much, much better way, until you actually do it in a much, much better way. >> Yeah, no, Jeff, that's absolutely right. So, like you mentioned, there's a technology aspect to this, so, there's just multiple systems, and that leads to inefficiency. And then, when you don't get what you want from the technology, what do you do? You resort to people. And so, for years, HR has dealt with this problem by just throwing more people at it. And the way I like to think about it is we've gone from this era of trying to, essentially, create reincarnations of things that were already automated. So, I come from the HCM space, if you will. Talent management, recruiting, and so, we've taken a recruiting system, and then tried to make that better and better and better. Put it in the cloud, and so on and so forth. And if you look Code HR and some of these other technologies that's what they do, and they do a great job at that. But what we've recognized is, yes, that is obviously important and necessary, but really, like I said earlier, when you have a life event, you are looking for just information, so you can make the choices that you want to be making during that life event. You want step-by-step guidance. You want access to some person, a real person, that can help answer those questions. And when you don't get those types of things, now you're back to unstructured emails and sending text messages to somebody in HR, and that's not their job. Their job is to be helping you with providing strategic support. And so, how can we unlock the utilization, if you will, of those HR professionals, the people, as an asset, within HR, and make them more productive. That's what we're all about. >> And then jump on the latest, greatest trend, which is Cloud, obviously you guys have Cloud application, a little bit of software automation, a little bit data support into that automation, and then, ta-da. Hopefully, it's a whole lot smoother process. >> Yeah, yeah. >> What has to happen for a customer to take advantage of HR within ServiceNow? We had one guest on yesterday that they actually started at HR, but generally, that's not the case, right? Normally, it's an extension of ITSM. So, what's the typical case and what are the prerequisites for customers? >> I think in mind, a couple of things have to happen. One is HR has to be brought in. So, we got a lot of IT champions, which is great, but I encouraged them to go out and to give these HR people a hug, literally. Because they need to understand what the platform can do for HR and how it can unlock that productivity that he just spoke about, Jeff. And HR has to be brought in, they need to be educated on the problem that they have. A lot of times, they don't even recognize that there's a problem, because they've just gotten used to doing things a certain way, and now, there is this revolutionary platform that can help them, so getting them on board, getting that buy in is important. I think the other thing that has to happen is these organizations need to identify very specific set of problems that they want to go after because if you look at the problem set that we can address it's everything from just simple case management all the way to automating business processes like on boarding. You can start wherever you want in that spectrum, but you need to figure out what your priorities are and start there, and if it's case management, that's fine. You figure that out. Now, you can actually measure progress and move from there. If you want to start with on boarding and automating a business process, that's fine, as well. But very often, I find that our customers need some help in trying to identify the priority projects that they can tackle. And that's a blessing and a curse of having such a powerful platform. It can do everything, and often times, it's just getting to the right set of priorities that you want to tackle. >> The flexibility of the platform, like you say, it's a two-sided coin. But I want to ask you a question. You're a software executive, you've been in the business a while. You know one of the complaints of software, historically, is if I have a process that's fossilized, a lot of times when I bring in new software, I have to change that process to adapt to the way in which the software handles it, and that's been a headwind for a lot of adoption. If I have a process that's baked can I just sort of use that within ServiceNow, and apply the existing processes? And is that typically how it happens? Or do customers sit back and say, hey, there's a better way to do this? >> Yeah, I would say, there's probably a mix of the two. There is the where do I start? I have a process, can't I just take that and put it into ServiceNow? And absolutely. That's been happening since ServiceNow has been in its existence. That's the core of what we do, being able to structure work, being able to automate it through workflows, things like that. But oftentimes, what'll happen is then they get the analytics, using performance analytics or reporting solutions, you can now start to look at what's working, what's not, and then make some adjustments. So, for example, with HR, you might start off with, hey, everything is a general inquiry. And so, now you're getting a number of things that are tagged as general inquiries, but then you look at analytics data, and it says, well 30% of those are actually going to the payroll department. So guess what? Now we need to restructure our processes so that we've got some special handling for payroll, because that tends to be a friction point for employees. And that's how our platform can provide that visibility, so you can evolve as your needs evolve and you mature. >> I was going to say, and I'm sure people are wondering, there's other big HCM applications out there. You've worked with some of them. How does the ServiceNow offering suite fix into their existing HR application infrastructure. >> Great question. So, this is probably the number one question that our customers ask us. They're trying to figure out where does ServiceNow start and where do these other applications begin. And I think the answer is it depends. And we want to provide customers with choices. What we are trying to optimize for is that employee service experience. What does that look like, and how do we make it as consumerized as possible? So, there's maybe three broad use cases where these solutions fit in. So, one might be I am within one of these systems. So, let's say I'm doing a performance review within a work day or success factors, and now, I have a question, I'm stuck here. Now, you're in ServiceNow, and you're submitting a case, asking a question, searching a knowledge article, as an example. That's one use case. The second use case is something happened in my life. I'm going to have a baby, or somebody in my family is sick and I need to tend to them. Or I need to relocate an employee from a different country. Where do I even begin? So you start with ServiceNow, potentially. You figure out what you want to do, and then you submit the request, and eventually, you might end up completing a transaction in one of the systems. But what we do is help guide that employee to where they need to be going. And the third one really is the use case we explored this morning, which is around on boarding, off boarding, transfers, how do we take what's happening within those systems, and extend that to all the other department? So, there may be aspects of on boarding, as an example, that's happening in a recruiting system. How do we take that and then extend it into IT and finance and facilities, and so on and so forth. >> Jeff: Great. That's a good question. >> Deepak, can you share with us some early customer experiences, some maybe metrics, proof points? >> Sure, yeah. I actually had a couple of those on the screen this morning so I'll use Sally Beauty as an example. Beauty supply retailer. And they started with the employee relations function, and trying to optimize that. And the challenge they were having is all of the employee relations questions from the field, and they got a number of stores, and all of these associates where sending in these questions and inquiries and complaints, in some cases, to the HR business partner. So, there were regional business partners in each of the regions, and they were getting all of these questions. So, as a result, that HR business partner, who is supposed to be thinking about how to help staff new stores, and just provide more strategic support to the managers, district managers, they are fielding first level questions about employee relations. And so, what they did was they centralized that function, the HR service delivering function, so that there is all these calls go to a central location, and they just had two people, now, manning it, and we did some value calculation with them, and what we recognized is they had saved the equivalent of seven people's worth of time, that could then be repurposed back into something else. So, the centralized the function, the moved work from high cost business partners to lower cost HR support personnel, and each person that you can free up is at least $100,000 a year, fully loaded. And so that math starts to add up pretty fast and pretty quickly. This is just employee relations. You extend that to benefits and payroll, and so on and so forth. You in millions of dollars a year. >> That's a pretty powerful example, and even though they're not getting rid of people, but they're avoiding potentially new hires, and as you say, they're driving new value. Every company we talk to is trying to do some kind of digital transformation. What they don't want to do is route paper. So, is that what you're seeing? Where are they putting the resources that they're saving. What are seeing? Some examples of what customers are doing. >> It's all sorts of things. I think analyzing the data is a big area. Just the data science piece of it. So, if you look at a service center, would you rather be looking at how to reorganize your resources, or would you rather respond via email to all these unstructured queries? Clearly, the former is a much more higher value added work. So that's one area that you see a lot of repurposing. The other that I talk about is how can you improve the quality of service itself. So, instead of you answering questions about my benefits plan, go find me a better benefits plan. Do some research and look at what else it out there. That's where you should be spending time. And the classic one is really around talent. There's just a lot of talent management type activities that need to take place from sourcing, recruiting, managing succession planning processes and thing like that. Again, you should not be telling me how to put a job requisition online, and what pay grade to select and what area to post this in. All of that should be available as some sort of a knowledge-based item. You should be actually going out there and doing your job of sourcing high-quality candidates. So, that's how these things really compliment each other and unlock the potential of the HR team. >> Yeah, spend your time sharpening the sod, not whackin' at the tree, right? >> Exactly. >> I got an automated tree whacker. I can actually focus on where I want to go next. >> All right, real quick, we have limited time here, but the announcements that you're makin' today, we haven't touched on that yet. So, give us the run down. >> What we've done, essentially, is looked at processes that require, and the way we categorize it is these are processes that are usually long running, processes that require action across multiple parties, multiple departments, and they have a specific sequence. So, we looked at that as the baseline, and we said, hey, what fits into this? Because if we could create a structure that models this out in a very easy to configure manner, than what problems could we solve. Obviously we used onboarding as the example of where we wanted to go, but we found out that that model is easily applicable for transfers or off boarding, things like that. And so, what we've done is taken the underlying workflow capabilities off the platforms. Underneath the covers, it's still a workflow that is running but we essentially created a very clean data model on top. The imagery that I use is when you go into these HR, visit any HR customer, if they are going through an exercise of revamping, let's say, their onboarding process, then you'll see a wall with sticky notes, Post-It sticky notes, different colors. And we took that and we said how can we get that into the software, where you'll see phases. There is day, offer stage, pre boarding, week one, month one, and so on and so forth, and each of those stickies, they actually represent activities within the application. So, we've created a model that lets you take that visual imagery and put it in the product, so it's just easy for them, easy for HR to be able to configure this without needing any technical expertise and that's where I think there's a lot of IP. It helps them with change management. It'll help with adoption. And hopefully, it'll bring a true transformation, not just to HR, but across the enterprise. >> Excellent, well, Deepak, thanks very much for coming back in The Cube. It's good to see you again. >> My pleasure, Dave, Jeff. Thank you so much. >> All right, keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. This is The Cube, we're live from Knowledge17, and we'll be right back. (electronic music)

LeBron welcome to the silicon angle studios the cube here in Palo Alto I'm John furry your host we are in studio for a conversation with Aykroyd who's the CEO vision formerly with Oracle marketing cloud recently took the Jobs CEO decision congratulations thanks John great to see you thanks for coming in on the holidays kind of winding down the year what a year it's been Trump's meeting with tech leaders Oh having them kiss the ring get the trillion dollars offshore on site advertising is upside down date is the hottest thing on the planet you know you're in the center of the action certainly at Oracle we had multiple conversations but now you're leading in coupling so Kevin Aykroyd leaving Oracle marketing cloud or incision that's that's way down the track that has change right no big deal well we're as you know we're always out front of the trends but the marketing concepts have been around our businesses since in the centuries since business was around but now is data as we talked us changing so the biggest trend that we see happening is that marking isn't just a marketing thing it's a company-wide data opportunity so it's certainly changing a lot of the game and I know we've talked about that so you know what's the what's the change why did you decide to take the CEO opportunity of decision was the company did it what attracted you to these yes thanks for asking and good to be here by the way i I've been here with you fair amount this is the first time I'm not wearing my Oracle marketing cloud uniform so good to be seen in a second uniform right how does the how does the blue and orange decision uniform look John I look I've been working hard all right yeah yeah taking these good well you got to grow you know that's executive everything stops with yeah well well and just to be really clear because I know that my name with you guys especially has been synonymous with Oracle marketing cloud I I started it I did all the acquisitions I grew it you know is kind of my baby I didn't leave because there was anything wrong I think Oracle marketing cloud is going to continue to just absolutely kick ass and take names think they've built the right mousetrap you know as you've heard me they didn't they didn't start from CRM and go backward they didn't start from the website and go out they started with data right data objects crosswise add this the first big DoD MP and data marketplace I think they're data-driven you know strategy is going to continue to see them just absolutely survive after me and I sure hope something cause I well they're set up to win I mean if the integrations are always a challenge and I think our last interview at the modern marketing experience great show yeah we talked about that specific thing where you want to be vertically specialized but yet horizontally integrated and you set that up and and I think I and day right have set that up so they're poised really well CC so I didn't leave Oracle because of any lack of faith in their ability to go conquer that very big opportunity or any personal dissatisfaction is probably the best job I've ever had my career this is one of those classic cases where I saw an opportunity that was so good I had to leave something that I that I loved so for everybody that's listening I'll just say that again Kevin didn't leave Oracle because there was anything wrong Kevin left Oracle because of what I'm about to riff on now it was this big opportunity and basically John we can we can go as deep as you'd like to in today's interview but at the highest level this big opportunity that I saw is you just look at the data driven and then you know data meets content meets applications meets media the channels come together right the life cycles you look at everything that's happened and it's easy to kind of now say well just go look at what Salesforce marketing cloud and adobe marketing cloud an Oracle marketing cloud right look at that billions and billions and billions and billions of acquisition look how fast and far that's come and basically look at the needs that drove that that massive convergence and it has fundamentally changed the industry it's fundamentally changed the chief media the chief marketing the chief commerce officers ability to go drive results that they couldn't have done without Salesforce Adobe and Oracle doing what we did right but all of that has been done at paid media right the advertising at commerce and it owned media right our websites or mobile applications none of that through with all the tech giants in the industry and of the 20 billion dollars in M&A capital op X and capex since then none of its touched the third leg of the stool which is earned media right earned media communications good old-fashioned PR the exact same need for that data technology and measurement transformation that sales and service and commerce and paid media you know and owned they've all been through that this mission critical part called communications or in media has not been through it as we were building this my private equity company GT CR is very quick quietly over the last two years put together six leading solution providers in this earned media communications world just like I put eloquent responses in blue Chi and Maximizer they've been doing the same thing over here aimed at this earned media opportunity and if anything I think that every CEO every CIO every CMO would tell you they understand there's very clear there's a lot of clarity that I can't advertise my way there and I just can't get there by sending 300 promotional email and SMS campaigns you know versus 200 last year I can't promote my way there I can't advertise my way there if I want to influence customer experience customer loyalty and relationship and ultimately customer purchasing behavior I got a not just advertise and promote to them I get to get at what's called influencers right consumers whether they're b2b consumers or b2c consumers I am more and more being influenced and driven on who I listen to who I respect and hold credible and ultimately who I buy from based on people I trust that's that's called an influencer whether that's a reporter an academic a social person a blogger a community leader brands know I got to get to the influencers if I want to get to my customers and that's all about earn so the opportunity to go repeat exactly what I did at Oracle marketing cloud for Paden owned but do it over here and earned was simply too big an opportunity to pass up well first of all I love that one and drill down on scission and specifically and when you your plans are there but let's stay on this mega trencher second because I think you're hitting the nail on the head here because I think this some that you know we actually when we started Silicon angle media seven years ago this was the premise of our business yes we saw that the connected network that's right of social is fueling this new earned area where earned is truly earned yet there's no real website no silver bullets right it's a distributed as tightly coupled Network and there's pockets of it so you know what influence is about the most followers it's about the relationship of the connected consumer yeah who's also a consumer and a producer of content yeah their opinion there and so this is all kind of a new behavioral thing yeah so you go back to you know he earned and I mean the honed and paid and searched and all that stuff did contextual and behavioral absolutely really that's two things that's right the behavior of the crowd you got you can't look further than the Trump election to say whoa who saw that coming that's an example of an earned dynamic I would say that caused people to go well what the heck yeah I should send him a letter for thanking him for making my point so so emphatically for me we're all going exactly right hey what's up her for that crying in there wine in California for sure a blue state but this brings up the dynamic right this is the mega trend that now this earned media component isn't just about ads it's software that's right it's about software and networks and with cloud computing there's an opportunity for people to participate in there so so how how do you guys a minute rephrase it this right how does customers what what's the current pain point I mean what's the top three yeah I'll see you advertising you know I don't want drive traffic to my site that's an old mentality right that's the only thing they can do right now yeah it is looks so again I think it is getting at that at the risk of being repetitive it is okay boy if that's all I do is rely on the big monolithic web infrastructure I've developed the campaign engine that just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper so I keep sending more and more and okay it's programmatic now so I guess I can throw more at Google and Facebook I I'm not saying those aren't important parts of the mix you of course need to continue but they're declining and efficacy there right so not only the decline in efficacy while they increase in spend the cus the consumer right again whether that's a b2b consumer Ibiza is becoming increased don't view him as credible don't view his trustworthy if they've got these big lofty goals in this new digital world we're right the fragmented influence is hard and hard to contain and they just flat-out need to they recognize that the thing that's probably going to be the most important going forward which is solving this puzzle is the thing they've D invested in the most right it's gone from the king of the hill 20 years ago to as a true second-class citizen while they got all drunk on paid advertising and you know more e-commerce the role of the buyers interesting is let me just get your thoughts I'm sure because one of the things that we've observed at silk'n angle and our business model is we do really really well with our I'd sing I don't call my advertise sponsors if you will because we're very community driven with the cube as you know is that we have buy-in from not just CMO yeah in some cases just the head of communications right so the role of PR public relations is a communications function so the thing about social is you have a dynamic of organic and everyone knows organic is the cool right yeah organic growth bottoms up but the interesting thing is communication pros have a top-down command and control mentality yeah so when you blend command and control with organic growth you can actually have both now you can't this seems to be the new power base that's right the comms person which was hey get the press release out there go talk to ten reporters is now a million people yep the CMO would go with agencies to spend a lot of dough on print ads and TV commercials they have to work together well and the chief communication officer is still one of the nice things you know seven out of ten times they're reporting directly to the CMO the other three times they actually appear to the CMO and they report directly the CEO so it's not Adi empowered function it shouldn't it shouldn't be right and then I think that the modern communication organization I'll talk about who they are and then I'll circle back on the pain point because there's some acute pain there that we're trying to address they don't look at it as just PR now to be really clear and I would like this on record to the traditional journalist reporter media never been more important right it's not like they've lacked but even then right who that reporter is on that publication website versus the print versus the broadcast versus their blog versus their Twitter handle versus their Facebook page versus their Instagram account right even that traditional reporter is nine different influences at nine different audiences in nine different media right so they haven't become less important to become far more fragmented yeah that's exactly right and nailing that is is no trivial thing that's got to get done they they they really are they're they're as digital and as modern and as social as everybody else but then you also got to realize boy right these communities are incredibly powerful these these mini bloggers have as much cloud as the New York Times does in this particular area right the social followings these academics these thought leaders the definition of a digital influencer has widened quite a bit above and beyond the core journalist trip but but don't forget that that person's really important so and then you got the consumer influencers and their user-generated content themselves right so that the customer is their own influencer which is really interesting and that's a b2b dynamic as well as a b2c dynamic so that's the world we all of a sudden you know find ourselves in but I think the modern the digital world that you're talking about isn't a b2b versus b2c it's digital it's digital period one yeah concept and it's no motton it's no longer digital communications or digital marketing it's just communications and marketing in the digital world right and that's a that sounds simple that's a pretty fundamental shift now let's go back into though the tools that they have so they're as savvy and is digital as their peers that are running commerce or paid advertising or the website they've really been bereft of toolkits I'm going to give you an example we work with an extremely large one of the four largest beauty products companies in the world and when they do a good new product launch right let's let's look at advertising they will harness data they will develop 30 different audiences right and they will go to discrete tonality creative offer you name it at 30 different you know so they'll do 30 different banner ads they'll do the same thing with social audience they'll do 40 different data-driven audiences that get discrete touch content an email to do 50 or 60 right 50 or 60 different data-driven segments and even in the website they'll say hey Jon's profile that's profile seven Kevin's profile is profile 12 you will see a completely different website than I will based on data driven right what are they doing Communications one press release and one infographic goes to all 12,000 communication outlets no data no versioning right no nothing so this concept of the right version of the content to the right audience at the right time I'm putting you know in advertising and in commerce on the website I'm talking to soccer moms vs. sexy grandmas versus Wall Street women very different for my beauty products in communications I'm talking to all of them the same which is kind of crazy because the emulators would be a labor driven market - that's right - call it arms and legs right which is what it yeah yeah and a head and arms and legs and a lot of people kind of reaching out but now the trend is to have a much more sass that's exactly right and and and I don't have the platform to actually go do that right so as far as some of the pain we're trying to provide now with our communication cloud just like with the other marketing clouds I don't have I can actually do data-driven intelligent messaging and content delivery to the audience to the influencers that get at the discrete audiences just like I do the data-driven direct communication to the end users themselves probably more importantly I'll stick with my example for a sec John that beauty company at fortune 500 Beauty company they get Rachel who is the head fashion reporter on the fashion section New York times.com right Rachel covered and Rachel embedded my press release on my infographic homerun pop the champagne right it's like okay but well there's two million people that went to that fashion section in New York Times comm today when she covered right how many of them actually read the content and picked it up don't know how many of them actually engaged in it read the infographic click the video click the links don't know who were they from a demographic psychographic sociographic right behavioral don't know and probably most importantly what did they do after they read it did they go to the desired shopping cart or the right community page or back to the website or unit was there any actual digital behavior driven from that bigger meeting full of discovery data the or it stops at I got picked up by the reporter yeah and I have no idea how many of the two million people were influenced covered engaged right etcetera and no idea about the behavior that I took so the link between the influencer comes and the end-user has never been closed that's the second part of the pain point that really fixes now we are fixing the gap between the influencer and and the end user and you're going to see us call that the influencer graph John you'll see a you'll see a press release a targeted one that's data driven and very rich media go out around the influencer graph because if we can start saying hey John's my end user customer now I know right quantitatively with data that I can optimize in real time which influencers matter which reporters which academics which bloggers in which channels in which media and which content as people have different on fluentd rankings in certain contexts you got it and all that's a black hole we know it we have no idea how to measure it make it data-driven make it contextual and optimize it in real time with a digital platform so that this command-and-control CCO who thinks this way now actually has his his or her system of record to actually go execute this way as Maslov Harkavy needs as that sounds because the commerce paid and owned guys have had this for a while this is a this is like discovering fire here for the chief communications officer because they've never had their data and tech enablement platform to do this the way the other guys have so that's that's number two and the number three and I think this is really important is we all know that communicate I want I need to measure and optimize the comms function the way I just talked about it we all know that if done right it amplifies the bejesus out of the owned and the paid - yeah you shouldn't be thinking about them in silos but there's no way to measure that if I did a really good job and earned look at the impact it have in the efficacy on that massive page budget now mutually exclusive and there's a relationship between them because in social and communities collaboration that's a four linchpin it is you cannot articulate just how important that is and until tech vendors put the apps the api's the data and then the right through the ID syncs together you can't measure it right and as fundamental as that sounds that's why what's happened over there in Adobe Oracle Salesforce land had to happen and it's why what we're doing here incision line has to happen so that not only can coms catch up but comms can communicate in that data and play an active role in that - an active role because no leaders happen is they're going to realize holy smokes the paid performed here without their and the paid performed here with the earn and quite frankly that earned outperformed the paid right so we're not going to be a participant role is going to be a I'm going to resume my rightful place at the head of that you're the head of that tribe on our second segment when it get more indecision and specific solution but in this segment on kind of wrapping up the big megatrend Housley social and the technology and network effect of social combined with the data combined with the fact that comms communications right is now an active leader and important role in the creative Nick that's right I've earned that's right and integrating in page I can have a cohesive but decoupled programs it's not silver bullet either well pleasure rising tide floats all but I've earned has been under developed under developed under invested in under tech enabled under date enabled and really that's what it gets to is the people in charge understand that they didn't quite have the data ten tools to do it the data the tech tools are now available and now the the industry just got to kind of get up the sophistication curve so final questions in this segment is where's the progress bar on this sector how early is it first inning bottom of the first second inning and to there's always in these early adopter markets that certainly that you saw I believe left the Oracle for it but this is an I agree by the way is a great great opportunity they're always the champions internally who can see it - yeah how where's the progress bar and what's the advice to the folks that are inside these companies who actually have the religion say this is the future and have to communicate it to the rest of the kink unfortunately the thinking the thought leadership bar is probably in the third inning to get it uh doing something about it and going from good thinking to good practitioner ship and execution is retraining first out the first out to the first pitch in the first inning you know of the first game of the season we're literally at ground one the good news is though is they're not going to try to go convince the CFO from a money or the CIO from a resource or the CEO from a strategy this whole I keep saying is this data tech and measurement transformation the corporation no matter what the corporation is invested it in sales look what happened they invested in the service look what happened they invested in it and paid look what happened they've invested in it known so the good news is is while they are at the very very very beginning of the ball game they're literally the last function inside the corporation to actually go do it and they don't have evangelism around the benefit of this type of transformation it's worked in every other area so while they're the very beginning they want to convince anybody it's a good idea everybody else that's down the hall and sits around the CEOs table has been through that transformation so there's not that evangelism it's just now his or her tits operationalize they do some results that's on the right table and and it and it's shown results in all these other lines of business so there's not this fundamental disbelief that it won't show results in the communications line of business there's actually quite the opposite there's heavy belief that it will because it has shown right it has shown results and all these other lines of business so yeah especially look is that's obvious - it's like okay we got to do this yeah that they should be able to move faster does this caterpillar should turn into a butterfly really fast because everybody's thinking about it the text in place and it's worked in other places but we are really really really at the very beginning it's exciting Kevin Ackroyd CEO of sisian year inside our studio talking about the landscape of really digital changing and how earned media blogs and folks like silk'n angle and others who actually producing original content an engaging audiences now an opportunity to convert over on this new market shift going on big mega trend we back with segments to talk about the company and their solution and technology we're interesting to get that perspective Kevin thanks for joining us here in the palace news thanks for watching thank you [Music]

Yeah, I'm Aala, They're the co-founder back to back. This is the cube silicon angle.com, Silicon angle dot TV's production of the cube, our flagship telecasts. We go out to the event. That was a great conversation. I was really just, just cool. I could have, we could have probably hit on a few more things, obviously well read. Awesome. Co-founder of Cloudera a. You were, you did a good job teaming up with that co-founder, huh? Not bad on the cube, huh? He's not bad on the cube, isn't he? He, >>He reads the internet. >>That's what I'm saying. >>Anything is going on. >>He's a cube star, you know, And >>Technology. Jeff knows it. Yeah. >>We, we tell you, I'm smarter just by being in Cloudera all those years. And I actually was following what he was saying, Sad and didn't dust my brain. So, Okay, so you're back. So we were talking earlier with Michaels and about the relational database thing. So I kind of pick that up where we left off with you around, you know, he was really excited. It's like, you know, hey, we saw that relational database movement happen. He was part of that. Yeah, yeah. That generation. And then, but things were happening or kind of happening the same way in a similar way, still early. So I was trying to really peg with him, how early are we, like, so, you know, as the curve, you know, this is 1400, it's not the Javit Center yet. Maybe the Duke world, you know, next year might be at the Javit Center, 35,000 just don't go to Vegas. So I'm trying to figure out where we are on that curve. Yeah. And we on the upwards slope, you know, down here, not even hitting that, >>I think, I think, I think we're moving up quicker than previous waves. And actually if you, if you look for example, Oracle, I think it took them 15, 20 years until they, they really became a mature company, VM VMware, which started about, what, 12, 13 years ago. It took them about maybe eight years to, to be a big company, met your company, and I'm hoping we're gonna do it in five. So a couple more years. >>Highly accelerated. >>Yes. But yeah, we see, I mean, I'm, I'm, I've been surprised by the growth. I have been, Right? I've been told, warned about enterprise software and, and that it takes long for production to take place. >>But the consumerization trend is really changing that. I mean, it seems to be that, yeah, the enterprises always last. Why the shorter >>Cycle? I think the shorter cycle is coming from having the, the, the, the right solution for the right problem at the right time. I think that's a big part of it. So luck definitely is a big part of this. Now, in terms of why this is changing compared to a couple of dec decades ago, why the adoption is changing compared to a couple of decades ago. I, I think that's coming just because of how quickly the technology itself, the underlying hardware is evolving. So right now, the fact that you can buy a single server and it has eight cores to 16 cores has 12 hards to terabytes. Each is, is something that's just pushing the, the, the, the limits what you can do with the existing systems and hence making it more likely for new systems to disrupt them. >>Yeah. We can talk about a lot. It's very easy for people to actually start a, a big data >>Project. >>Yes. For >>Example. Yes. And the hardest part is, okay, what, what do I really, what problem do I need to solve? How am I gonna, how am I gonna monetize it? Right? Those are the hard parts. It's not the, not the underlying >>Technology. Yes, Yes, that's true. That's true. I mean, >>You're saying, eh, you're saying >>Because, because I'm seeing both so much. I'm, I'm seeing both. I'm seeing both. And like, I'm seeing cases where you're right. There's some companies that was like, Oh, this Hadoop thing is so cool. What problem can I solve with it? And I see other companies, like, I have this huge problem and, and, and they don't know that HA exists. It's so, And once they know, they just jump on it right away. It's like, we know when you have a headache and you're searching for the medicine in Espin. Wow. It >>Works. I was talking to Jeff Hiba before he came on stage and, and I didn't even get to it cuz we were so on a nice riff there. Right. Bunch of like a musicians playing the guitar together. But like he, we talked about the it and and dynamics and he said something that I thoughts right. On money and SAP is talking the same thing and said they're going to the lines of business. Yes. Because it is the gatekeeper that's, it's like selling mini computers to a mainframe selling client servers from a mini computer team. Yeah. >>There's not, we're seeing, we're seeing both as well. So more likely the, the former one meaning, meaning that yes, line of business and departments, they adopt the technology and then it comes in and they see there's already these five different departments having it and they think, okay, now we need to formalize this across the organization. >>So what happens then? What are you seeing out there? Like when that happens, that mean people get their hands on, Hey, we got a problem to solve. Yeah. Is that what it comes down to? Well, Hadoop exist. Go get Hadoop. Oh yeah. They plop it in there and I what does it do? They, >>So they pop it into their, in their own installation or on the, on the cloud and they show that this actually is working and solving the problem for them. Yeah. And when that happens, it's a very, it's a very easy adoption from there on because they just go tell it, We need this right now because it's solving this problem and it's gonna make, make us much >>More money moving it right in. Yes. No problems. >>Is is that another reason why the cycle's compressed? I mean, you know, you think client server, there was a lot of resistance from it and now it's more much, Same thing with mobile. I mean mobile is flipped, right? I mean, so okay, bring it in. We gotta deal with it. Yep. I would think the same thing. We, we have a data problem. Let's turn it into an >>Opportunity. Yeah. In my, and it goes back to what I said earlier, the right solution for the right problem at the right time. Like when they, when you have larger amounts of unstructured data, there isn't anything else out there that can even touch what had, can >>Do. So Amar, I need to just change gears here a minute. The gaming stuff. So we have, we we're featured on justin.tv right now on the front page. Oh wow. But the numbers aren't coming in because there's a competing stream of a recently released Modern Warfare three feature. Yes. Yes. So >>I was looking for, we >>Have to compete with Modern Warfare three. So can you, can we talk about Modern Warfare three for a minute and share the folks what you think of the current version, if any, if you played it. Yeah. So >>Unfortunately I'm waiting to get back home. I don't have my Xbox with me here. >>A little like a, I'm talking about >>My lines and business. >>Boom. Water warfares like a Christmas >>Tree here. Sorry. You know, I love, I'm a big gamer. I'm a big video gamer at Cloudera. We have every Thursday at five 30 end office, we, we play Call of of Beauty version four, which is modern world form one actually. And I challenge, I challenge people out there to come challenge our team. Just ping me on Twitter and we'll, we'll do a Cloudera versus >>Let's, let's, let's reframe that. Let team out. There am Abalas company. This is the geeks that invent the future. Jeff Haer Baer at Facebook now at Cloudera. Hammerer leading the charge. These guys are at gamers. So all the young gamers out there am are saying they're gonna challenge you. At which version? >>Modern Warfare one. >>Modern Warfare one. Yes. How do they fire in? Can you set up an >>External We'll >>We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. Okay. >>Yeah. Just p me on Twitter and We'll, >>We can carry it live actually we can stream that. Yeah, >>That'd be great. >>Great. >>Yeah. So I'll tell you some of our best Hadooop committers and Hadoop developers pitch >>A picture. Modern Warfare >>Three going now Model Warfare three. Very excited about the game. I saw the, the trailers for it looks, graphics look just amazing. Graphics are amazing. I love the Sirius since the first one that came out. And I'm looking forward to getting back home to playing the game. >>I can't play, my son won't let me play. I'm such a fumbler with the Hub. I'm a keyboard controller. I can't work the Xbox controller. Oh, I have a coordination problem my age and I'm just a gluts and like, like Dad, sorry, Charity's over. I can I play with my friends? You the box. But I'm around big gamer. >>But, but in terms of, I mean, something I wanted to bring up is how to link up gaming with big data and analysis and so on. So like, I, I'm a big gamer. I love playing games, but at the same time, whenever I play games, I feel a little bit guilty because it's kind of like wasted time. So it's like, I mean, yeah, it's fun and I'm getting lots of enjoyment on it makes my life much more cheerful. But still, how can we harness all of this, all of these hours that gamers spend playing a game like Modern Warfare three, How can we, how can we collect instrument, all of the data that's coming from that and coming up, for example, with something useful with predicted. >>This is exactly, this is exactly the kind of application that's mainstream is gaming. Yeah. Yeah. Danny at Riot G is telling me, we saw him at Oracle Open World. He's up there for the Java one. He said that they, they don't really have a big data platform and their business is about understanding user behavior rep tons of data about user playing time, who they're playing with. Yeah, Yeah. How they want us to get into currency trading, You know, >>Buy, I can't, I can't mention the names, but some of the biggest giving companies out there are using Hadoop right now. And, and depending on CDH for doing exactly that kind of thing, creating >>A good user experience >>Today, they're doing it for the purpose of enhancing the user experience and improving retention. So they do track everything. Like every single bullet, you fire everything in best Ball Head, you get everything home run, you do. And, and, and in, in a three >>Type of game consecutive headshot, you get >>Everything, everything is being Yeah. Headshot you get and so on. But, but as you said, they are using that information today to sell more products and, and, and retain their users. Now what I'm suggesting is that how can you harness that energy for the good as well? I mean for making money, money is good and everything, but how can you harness that for doing something useful so that all of this entertainment time is also actually productive time as well. I think that'd be a holy grail in this, in this environment if we >>Can achieve that. Yeah. It used to be that corn used to be the telegraph of the future of about, of applications, but gaming really is, if you look at gaming, you know, you get the headset on. It's a collaborative environment. Oh yeah. You got unified communications. >>Yeah. And you see our teenager kids, how, how many hours they spend on these things. >>You got play as a play environments, very social collaborative. Yeah. You know, some say, you know, we we're saying, what I'm saying is that that's the, that's the future work environment with Skype evolving. We're our multiplayer game's called our job. Right? Yeah. You know, so I'm big on gaming. So all the gamers out there, a has challenged you. Yeah. Got a big data example. What else are we seeing? So let's talk about the, the software. So we, one of the things you were talking about that I really liked, you were going down the list. So on Mike's slide he had all the new features. So around the core, can you just go down the core and rattle off your version of what, what it means and what it is. So you start off with say H Base, we talked about that already. What are the other ones that are out there? >>So the projects that we have right there, >>The projects that are around those tools that are being built. Cause >>Yeah, so the foundational, the foundational one as we mentioned before, is sdfs for storage map use for processing. Yeah. And then the, the immediate layer above that is how to make MAP reduce easier for the masses. So how can, not everybody knows how to learn map, use Java, everybody knows sql, right? So, so one of the most successful projects right now that has the highest attach rate, meaning people usually when they install had do installed as well is Hive. So Hive takes sequel and so Jeff Harm Becker, my co-founder, when he was at Facebook, his team built the Hive system. Essentially Hive takes sql so you don't have to learn a new language, you already know sql. And then converts that into MAP use for you. That not only expands the developer base for how many people can use adu, but also makes it easier to integrate Hadoop through all DBC and JDBC integrated with BI tools like MicroStrategy and Tableau and Informatica, et cetera, et cetera. >>You mentioned R too. You mentioned R Program R >>As well. Yeah, R is one of our best partnerships. We're very, very happy with them. So that's, that's one of the very key projects is Hive assisted project to Hive ISS called Pig. A pig Latin is a language that ya invented that you have to learn the language. It's very easy, it's very easy to learn compared to map produce. But once you learn it, you can, you can specify very deep data pipelines, right? SQL is good for queries. It's not good for data pipelines because it becomes very convoluted. It becomes very hard for the, the human brain to understand it. So Pig is much more natural to the human. It's more like Pearl very similar to scripting kind of languages. So with Peggy can write very, very long data pipelines, again, very successful projects doing very, very well. Another key project is Edge Base, like you said. So Edge Base allows you to do low latencies. So you can do very, very quick lookups and also allows you to do transactions. So you can do updates in inserts and deletes. So one of the talks here that had World we try to recommend people watch when the videos come out is the Talk by Jonathan Gray from Facebook. And he talked about how they use Edge Base, >>Jonathan, something on here in the Cube later. Yeah. So >>Drill him on that. So they use Edge Base now for many, many things within Facebook. They have a big team now committed to building an improving edge base with us and with the community at large. And they're using it for doing their online messaging system. The live mail system in Facebook is powered by Edge Base right now. Again, Pro and eBay, The Casini project, they gave a keynote earlier today at the conference as well is using Edge Base as well. So Edge Base is definitely one of the projects that's growing very, very quickly right now within the Hudu system. Another key project that Jeff alluded to earlier when he was on here is Flum. So Flume is very instrumental because you have this nice system had, but Hadoop is useless unless you have data inside it. So how do you get the data inside do? >>So Flum essentially is this very nice framework for having these agents all over your infrastructure, inside your web servers, inside your application servers, inside your mobile devices, your network equipment that collects all of that data and then reliably and, and materializes it inside Hado. So Flum does that. Another good project is Uzi, so many of them, I dunno how, how long you want me to keep going here, But, but Uzi is great. Uzi is a workflow processing system. So Uzi allows you to define a series of jobs. Some of them in Pig, some of them in Hive, some of them in map use. You can define a series of them and then link them to each other and say, only start this job when these other jobs, two jobs finish because I'm waiting for the input from them before I can kick off and so on. >>So Uzi is a very nice framework that will will do that. We'll manage the whole graph of jobs for you and retry things when they fail, et cetera, et cetera. Another good project is where W H I R R and where allows you to very easily start ADU cluster on top of Amazon. Easy two on top of Rackspace, virtualized environ. It's more for kicking off, it's for kicking off Hadoop instances or edge based instances on any virtual infrastructure. Okay. VMware, vCloud. So that it supports all of the major vCloud, sorry, all of the me, all of the major virtualized infrastructure systems out there, Eucalyptus as well, and so on. So that's where W H I R R ARU is another key project. It's one, it's duck cutting's main kind of project right now. Don of that gut cutting came on stage with you guys has, So Aru ARO is a project about how do we encode with our files, the schema of these files, right? >>Because when you open up a text file and you don't know how to what the columns mean and how to pars it, it becomes very hard to work for it. So ARU allows you to do that much more easily. It's also useful for doing rrp. We call rtc remove procedure calls for having different services talk to each other. ARO is very useful for that as well. And the list keeps going on and on Maha. Yeah. Which we just, thanks for me for reminding me of my house. We just added Maha very recently actually. What is that >>Adam? I'm not >>Familiar with it. So Maha is a data mining library. So MAHA takes some of the most popular data mining algorithms for doing clustering and regression and statistical modeling and implements them using the map map with use model. >>They have, they have machine learning in it too or Yes, yes. So that's the machine learning. >>So, So yes. Stay vector to machines and so on. >>What Scoop? >>So Scoop, you know, all of them. Thanks for feeding me all the names. >>The ones I don't understand, >>But there's so many of them, right? I can't even remember all of them. So Scoop actually is a very interesting project, is short for SQL to Hadoop, hence the name Scoop, right? So SQ from SQL and Oops from Hadoop and also means Scoop as in scooping up stuff when you scoop up ice cream. Yeah. And the idea for Scoop is to make it easy to move data between relational systems like Oracle metadata and it is a vertical and so on and Hadoop. So you can very simply say, Scoop the name of the table inside the relation system, the name of the file inside Hadoop. And the, the table will be copied over to the file and Vice and Versa can say Scoop the name of the file in Hadoop, the name of the table over there, it'll move the table over there. So it's a connectivity tool between the relational world and the Hadoop world. >>Great, great tutorial. >>And all of these are Apache projects. They're all projects built. >>It's not part of your, your unique proprietary. >>Yes. But >>These are things that you've been contributing >>To, We're contributing to the whole ecosystem. Yes. >>And you understand very well. Yes. And >>And contribute to your knowledge of the marketplace >>And Absolutely. We collaborate with the, with the community on creating these projects. We employ committers and founders for many of these projects. Like Duck Cutting, the founder of He works in Cloudera, the founder for that UIE project. He works at Calera for zookeeper works at Calera. So we have a number of them on stuff >>Work. So we had Aroon from Horton Works. Yes. And and it was really good because I tell you, I walk away from that conversation and I gotta say for the folks out there, there really isn't a war going on in Apache. There isn't. And >>Apache, there isn't. I mean isn't but would be honest. Like, and in the developer community, we are friends, we're working together. We want to achieve the, there's >>No war. It's all Kumbaya. Everyone understands the rising tide floats, all boats are all playing nice in the same box. Yes. It's just a competitive landscape in Horton. Works >>In the business, >>Business business, competitive business, PR and >>Pr. We're trying to be friendly, as friendly as we can. >>Yeah, no, I mean they're, they're, they're hying it up. But he was like, he was cool. Like, Hey, you know, we know each other. Yes. We all know each other and we're just gonna offer free Yes. And charge with support. And so are they. And that's okay. And they got other things going on. Yes. But he brought up the question. He said they're, they're launching a management console. So I said, Tyler's got a significant lead. He kind of didn't really answer the question. So the question is, that's your core bread and butter, That's your yes >>And no. Yes and no. I mean if you look at, if you look at Cloudera Enterprise, and I mentioned this earlier and when we talked in the morning, it has two main things in it. Cloudera Enterprise has the management suite, but it also has the, the the the support and maintenance that we provide to our customers and all the experience that we have in our team part That subscription. Yes. For a description. And I, I wanna stress the point that the fact that I built a sports car doesn't mean that I'm good at running that sports car. The driver of the car usually is much better at driving the car than the guy who built the car, right? So yes, we have many people on staff that are helping build had, but we have many more people on stuff that helped run Hado at large scale, at at financial indu, financial industry, retail industry, telecom industry, media industry, health industry, et cetera, et cetera. So that's very, very important for our customer. All that experience that we bring in on how to run the system technically Yeah. Within these verticals. >>But their strategies clear. We're gonna create an open source project within Apache for a management consult. Yes. And we sell support too. Yes. So there'll be a free alternative to management. >>So we have to see, But I mean we look at the product, I mean our products, >>It's gotta come down to product differentiation. >>Our product has been in the market for two years, so they just started building their products. It's >>Alpha, It's just Alpha. The >>Product is Alpha in Alpha right now. Yeah. Okay. >>Well the Apache products, it is >>Apache, right? Yeah. The Apache project is out. So we'll see how it does it compare to ours. But I think ours is way, way ahead of anything else out there. Yeah. Essentially people to try that for themselves and >>See essentially, John, when I asked Arro why does the world need Hortonwork? You know, eventually the answer we got was, well it's free. It needs to be more open. Had needs to be more open. >>No, there's, >>It's going to be, That's not really the reason why Warton >>Works. >>No, they want, they want to go make money. >>Exactly. We wasn't >>Gonna say them you >>When I kept pushing and pushing and that's ultimately the closest we can get cuz you >>Just listens. Not gonna >>12 open source projects. Yes. >>I >>Mean, yeah, yeah. You can't get much more open. Yeah. Look >>At management >>Consult, but Airs not shooting on all those. I mean, I mean not only we are No, no, not >>No, no, we absolutely >>Are. No, you are contributing. You're not. But that's not all your projects. There's other people >>Involved. Yeah, we didn't start, we didn't start all of these projects. Yeah, that's >>True. You contributing heavily to all of them. >>Yes, we >>Are. And that's clear. Todd Lipkin said that, you know, he contributed his first patch to HPAC in 2008. Yes. So I mean, you go back through the ranks >>Of your people and Todd now is a committer on Edge base is a committer on had itself. So on a number >>Of you clearly the lead and, and you know, and, but >>There is a concern. But we, we've heard it and I wanna just ask you No, no. So there's a concern that if I build processes around a proprietary management console, Yes. I'm gonna end up being locked into that proprietary management CNA all over again. Now this is so far from ca Yes. >>Right. >>But that's a concern that some people have expressed. And, and, and I think one of the reasons why Port Works is getting so much attention. So Yes. >>Talk about that. It's, it's a very good, it's a very good observation to make. Actually, >>There there is two separate things here. There's the platform where all the data sets and then there's this management parcel beside the platform. Now why did we make the management console why the cloud didn't make the management console? Because it makes our job for supporting the customers much more achievable. When a customer calls in and says, We have a problem, help us fix this problem. When they go to our management console, there is a button they click that gives us a dump of the state, of the cluster. And that's what allows us to very quickly debug what's going on. And within minutes tell them you need to do this and you to do that. Yeah. Without that we just can't offer the support services. There's >>Real value there. >>Yes. So, so now a year from, But, but, but you have to keep in mind that the, the underlying platform is completely open source and free CBH is completely a hundred percent open source, a hundred percent free, a hundred percent Apache. So a year from now, when it comes time to renew with us, if the customer is not happy with our management suite is not happy with our support data, they can, they can go to work >>And works. People are afraid >>Of all they can go to ibm. >>The data, you can take the data that >>You don't even need to take the data. You're not gonna move the data. It's the same system, the same software. Every, everything in CDH is Apache. Right? We're not putting anything in cdh, which is not Apache. So a year from now, if you're not happy with our service to you and the value that we're providing, you can switch. There is no lock in. There is no lock. And >>Your, your argument would be the switching costs to >>The only lock in is happiness. The only lock in is which >>Happiness inspection customer delay. Which by, by the way, we just wrote a piece about those wars and we said the risk of lockin is low. We made that statement. We've got some heat for it. Yes. And >>This is sort of at scale though. What the, what the people are saying, they're throwing the tomatoes is saying if this is, again, in theory at scale, the customers are so comfortable with that, the console that they don't switch. Now my argument was >>Yes, but that means they're happy with it. That means they're satisfied and happy >>With it. >>And it's more economical for them than going and hiding people full-time on stuff. Yeah. >>So you're, you're always on check as, as long as the customer doesn't feel like Oracle. >>Yeah. See that's different. Oracle is very, Oracle >>Is like different, right? Yeah. Here it's like Cisco routers, they get nested into the environment, provide value. That's just good competitive product strategy. Yes. If it they're happy. Yeah. It's >>Called open washing with >>Oracle, >>I mean our number one core attribute on the company, the number one value for us is customer satisfaction. Keeping our people Yeah. Our customers happy with the service that we provide. >>So differentiate in the product. Yes. Keep the commanding lead. That's the strategist. That's the, that's what's happening. That's your goal. Yes. >>That's what's happening. >>Absolutely. Okay. Co-founder of Cloudera, Always a pleasure to have you on the cube. We really appreciate all the hospitality over the beer and a half. And wanna personally thank you for letting us sit in your office and we'll miss you >>And we'll miss you too. We'll >>See you at the, the Cube events off Swing by, thanks for coming on the cube and great to see you and congratulations on all your success. >>Thank >>You. And thanks for the review on Modern Warfare three. Yeah, yeah. >>Love me again. If there any gaming stuff, you know, I.