>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. (soft music) >> Hi, Lisa Martin, with theCUBE here, talking with Caitlin Gordon, the VP of Product Marketing, at Dell technologies. Caitlin how are you? It's great to see you. >> I'm doing very well Lisa, thank you so much for having me. >> Nice to see you back on theCUBE. So lots of stuff going on in the news the last few months or so. A lot of stuff with respect to Cyber Recovery, Cyber Security, but talk to us about what's happening in the Purpose-Built Appliance Backup Appliance market. This market is growing. What's happening there, and talk to me about Dell's leadership role. >> Yeah, we've kind of come full circle. I've been in the data protection space for a while and I would say that, you know now we're looking at this as a $4 billion industry and security and protection has bubbled backup to the top of the list from an IT perspective. And one of the simplest, fastest ways to improve data protection is leveraging Backup Appliances. And there's really two segments within that. There's what I'll refer to as the target appliances and the integrated appliances. And we actually have had leadership in this space, since really the beginning. You know 50 cents of every dollar in this market is spent on Dell equipment. Where we see massive growth is really in that integrated appliance market. And those integrated appliances really simplify the deployment of not only the protection storage, but the protection software. So you can modernize your data protection, get much faster recovery, faster backups, as well as really get a smaller footprint, better efficiency, all in one single solution. And that's really where we've seen a lot of growth in the appliance market recently. >> Yeah. So as that, an integrated appliance market is growing twice as fast as targeted, give us a picture. You mentioned a few things, but kind of dig deeper into why customers are opting more and more for the integrated approach. >> Yeah that comes back to kind of a lot of the trends we see in IT overall. It's simplicity. It's ease of, how can you get to a better solution, a better outcome faster. And when it comes to integrated data protection appliances, it really it takes the guesswork out of it. You know, you have software and hardware, that's optimized to work together. You're really quick and easy to deploy, really simple to manage, 'cause it's all fully integrated and you get to a solution where you can get things like 65 one data reduction, get a very small footprint, get really fast improvements to not only backups, but probably even more importantly to recovery, get instant access to that data. And you really are able to with one purchase, transform all of your data protection. Now there's still a lot of great uses for target appliances as well of better flexibility. But, we've seen this overall you've seen this Lisa, every trend in probably IT and life, right? Simplicity. How can you get a faster, better answer? And integrated appliances really lean into that. It's as similar to what we see in the hyperconverged space, kind of in the primary storage and compute side of things. >> Yeah, I think we all want faster, simpler, better in every walk of life. One of the things this year that, in all of that lack of simplification, the complexity that we're living in that we've seen, is the rise of ransomware. It's not only on the rise, it's getting more personal. We've seen, you know, big companies, Garmin was attacked, one of the Cruise Lines was attacked, The New Zealand Stock Exchange, Facebook and Tik Tok were hacked. So we're starting to see so much more vulnerability and the ability of these hackers to expose more vulnerabilities. Have you seen that impacting your customers saying, "Hey, we need help here because now we have so many employees and devices, scattered." >> Yeah, unfortunately we have. You know, we've been talking about Ransomware Protection, Cyber Resiliency, Cyber Recovery with our customers for quite a number of years. And, now it's not a niche conversation just with financial institutions, it's a conversation with all of our customers. 'Cause either they've felt it or they've seen their competitors feel it and they need to protect themselves. So it has really become a conversation but it's not only our specialty sellers, but all of our sellers are having with our customers. And, it's really about not only being able to protect against them, which is an important part, but also recover from them. And that's really what our PowerProtect Cyber Recovery Solution is all about. And the exciting thing for us is that we actually have recently become the first Cyber Recovery Solution endorsed by Sheltered Harbor. Which really gives you an idea of the level of investment that we've made to provide that secure, automated air gap solution to give our customers that peace of mind. Because unfortunately this is becoming table stakes for any data protection out there today. >> Well, and as more and more, we see every company either becoming a data company or needing to become a data company to not just survive these times, but become successful as time goes on. To a point, it's one thing about protecting the data, but the actual need is to recover it should anything happen. Tell us a little bit more about Sheltered Harbor and what you guys were the first there to receive? Tell me a little bit more about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Okay a little bit more on overall our solution and Sheltered Harbor is actually a consortium of organizations, primarily financial institutions that have really come together to define the standards, of what we need or Cyber Resiliency for Cyber Recovery. And for us with PowerProtect Cyber Recovery, we've worked closely with that organization, to meet those standards. And with that work and with that actual deploying in with one of our customers, we were able to become the first Cyber Recovery Solution endorsed by Sheltered Harbor to meet their standards there. And what's an important about our solution is that it's both that automated air-gapped solution for the data isolation, which is a part of it. But it's also, we have the CyberSense analytics and forensic tools that give you the ability to discover, to diagnose and to remediate against these attacks. So it gives you both sides of protecting that data air-gapping it, but also being able to intelligently discover and remediate against those attacks, if they do indeed happen. >> As VP of Product Marketing, I'm sure you're with customers often these days virtually. When you're having customer conversations, as you were singing out data protection and being able to recover and remediate, should anything like a ransomware attack happen, that's business critical. That's, you know, lifeline kind of stuff we're talking about. Have you seen the conversations within customer organizations shifts or is this now a board level or a C-level conversation in terms of data protection? >> Yeah, it's interesting. It's become a more frequent conversation. The people involved, are different. It's not just the backup administrators that are involved, it's really about the overall compliance strategy, the CSOs that are involved here. And it's becoming a corporate mandate as it really unfortunately needs to be at this point. So it's coming up more frequently, but also the types of people involved in that conversation have really changed the types of things we're having to talk about and build solutions for. So it's really changed that dynamic for us. And it's been great to really be on the front lines of that with our customers. You know, it started with those financial institutions and now it's really commonplace, to talk about this with everyone. >> So let's talk customers. Give us an example or two of some customers that are leveraging this new technology that are really achieving like the big deduplication ratio that you talked about, but also enabling their business to move forward. >> Yeah. One of my favorite ones for a couple of reasons I'll confess is, World Candy. Actually there are a World Corporation, but to me, they're a candy company. They actually make some chocolate out of Pennsylvania one of my favorites, chocolate covered pretzels. And they're a great example, right? 'Cause they're certainly not an IT specialty organization. They're trying to contract manufactured candy and they want to get things done as efficiently as possible. So they were looking a solution to overall modernize, their overall IT and that came with the combination of an Integrated Data Protection Appliance, as well as VXRail. And by implementing that, they were able to reduce their backup times from running overnight all night, to just two hours. They were able to get dedupe ratios of a 12O to one, 99.2% reduction, which is just incredible. And they were able to reduce their physical server footprint by 60%. So you can just imagine with an organization like this, that needs to run things as efficiently, as simply, as quickly as possible, how transformational that is. And, probably one of the other things that we find out of customers like this is, it's really about finding them a partner that can solve all of their problems in one place. And for data protection that's certainly one of the biggest things for PowerProtect is we now have a one-stop shop appliances software for all your data protection needs, large and small. And my favorite thing is actually our quote from this customer which is, he calls it a perfect partnership and that they have a single hand to high five. And we love to get those high fives from our customer and we really like to be that partner for them and to help them solve these challenges really no matter where their data is or what their challenges are. >> I like that a single can for a virtual high five. Speaking of partners, what's the channel play here? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for us, Dell Technology is overall channel partners are absolutely critical and in the data protection space, probably even more so. So channel partners are a huge part of our go-to-market. And one of the reason that channel partners really like to work with us, with Dell technologies on the data protection side, is because of the breadth of that portfolio. And now with our most recent enhancements on the appliance side, you now have a full PowerProtect portfolio. Target appliances, integrated appliances, physical, virtual, as well as modern data protection software with PowerProtect data manager. And for our partners, and for us, it's so important that they can have one vendor to offer all of these solutions because we know that our customer's challenges are complex, they're diverse, their data sets are diverse and they need to be able to partner with someone, leverage us as a vendor, leverage our partners, leveraging us as a vendor to really give our customers that answer. And that could be very different needs. They have traditional applications, they have new modern applications in Kubernetes and the growth of, and the importance of those types of applications. Our partners don't want and our customers don't want to have to deal with multiple vendors. Multiple vendors actually can increase risk, increase costs. They want to keep that simple, efficient. And that's why partnering with us, with Dell Technologies, why our channel partners really find us to be such a critical vendor to work with on the data protection side. >> So you've shared some impressive stats about what the technology is able to deliver. You gave us the great World Candy company example in terms of the things I heard a big workforce productivity there, they've got big deduplication there. They're able to sounds like reduce their on-prem footprint. From an economic value perspective, help us understand what the economic value of the DP series and even maybe feedback from the analyst community. >> Yeah, we've actually got a recent study which I'd encourage you guys to go read and I will just kind of give you the Cliffs Notes version of it. Which shows you the advantages of leveraging Dell Technologies portfolio for data protection. You can have your cost to protect as low as 1 cent per gigabyte per month, which is impressive. And that's that efficiency that you can get with PowerProtect. It's a reduction in the administration costs for data reduction of 22%, a reduction of 84% in your Cloud resources and services. We all know that people have moved to Public Cloud and probably one of the biggest concerns is the cost of that. By implementing the right data protection solutions, leveraging our in-cloud backup and protection, you can actually significantly reduce that because of the way that we've implemented it. And overall, you can't argue with anything that reduces costs by 98%. So you can reduce your storage resource costs by 98% by leveraging the PowerProtect portfolio. And again, it's a recent ESG study, which you can find on our website and read more about that study and the economic elements that lead into that. But you can just see the dramatic impact that can have, not only are you protecting your most valuable asset of data, but you're doing so in a way that saves the company money, and time and resources. And we all know that's never been more critical than ever. >> Those are very impressive, but compelling stats. Last question, talking about the three waves that we know Dell technologies is writing, we've got VMware, Cloud, Cyber Recovery, give us a flavor of the launch and the news and the new capabilities for this one-stop shop with perspective of what's happening in Cyber Recovery today. >> Yeah, so we've got enhancements on all fronts. So we, let me go in order there. So we've got on the Cloud front our PowerProtect data manager, which we've talked about a lot this year. We continued to really enhance that. Some recent enhancements, the ability to deploy that in Azure and AWS Cloud, to be able to do in-Cloud data protection. On the VMware side as we talked about just recently at VMworld, we've got new integrations with Storage Based Policy Management to really simplify and automate protection for the Vadmins as well as protection administrators. The ability to support, real mission critical applications and VMs, that are something we're working on to be able to more intelligently protect those VMs that have become more challenging to protect in traditional methods as well as integration with protect VCF. And then lastly, I think we've covered a bit today is certainly on that Cyber Recovery, Cyber Resiliency solution. First one to be endorsed by Sheltered Harbor in providing that air gap solution, as well as that ability to discover to remediate from those attacks. And you can kind of get a sense of, where we're really focused on. Those are our big three areas in both our appliance as well as our software portfolio really focused on simplifying that for our customers. >> Well Caitlin, we thank you for joining us as per what theCUBE has seen for many years with Dell Technologies. Lots of innovation, continued innovation. We thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE today. >> Thanks so much for having me. It was great to be here, Lisa. >> Excellent. With Caitlin Gordon, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE. (soft music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

(logo chiming) >> Presenter: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a cube conversation. >> Hi, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. And I'm pleased to welcome back one of our cube alumni from Dell Technologies. Joining me right now is Jim Clancy, the SVP of Global Data Protection Solutions Dell. Jim, great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Hey, Lisa, thanks for having me. Looking forward to our conversation. >> Though we're nice. So we're very appropriately socially distance as you can tell California East Coast. So 2020 has been a quite a year, right? We're only about halfway through it, Jim. But some of the things that I noticed from Dell Technologies is these three big waves that Dell Technologies that we want to ride these in 2020. And those waves are Cloud, VMware, and Cyber Recovery. >> That's right. >> Talk to me about these three waves and what's happening with those currents in this pandemic time. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. So back in February we, we actually had Dave Volante had a video that we shared with our teams at FRS, which is the global sales organization meeting. And we were talking about some of the things that we're seeing from our customers and how they're picking up. And those are the key waves that our teams have been focused on. But most importantly, these are what our customers are asking us about. These are the things that are really important to them, that are allowing them to know modernize in, some of the challenges that that have really kind of taken off and gotten, quite frankly, worse in the current environment. So yeah, we, we kind of jumped on the wave that Dave kind of brought forward to us at FRS and now we've been riding those with our customers. And if you can imagine that they're pretty choppy with some of the change in the environment that we're in today, but they certainly allow someone like Dell DPS to be able to be really successful if you write them correctly. >> Alright, so let's break down those choppy waves right now from a cloud perspective. So many organizations in every industry globally, are living in a multicloud world, whether it's strategic, and some of it is or by acquisition. And they're running traditional workloads, they're running emerging workloads. How is cloud now even more important from a data protection perspective? And what is Dell Technologies doing to help them in this navigate this multicloud world? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple a couple of different things. First, is that before COVID, and before the pandemic, customers were obviously living in a multicloud world they were picking applications choosing. Is it easier, is it faster to deploy in the cloud. And now with with the situation that we're in, customers are accelerating their adoption. So if you look at some of the announcements that come out from like Microsoft. The Microsoft's cloud businesses is just exploding right now. And a lot of it has to do with our customers are not going back to the data center, they don't have access. And the world has changed that their focus so much on work from home, that the quickest way to get going is to adopt the cloud. And so we're seeing a massive uptick on that. It's good news for Dell Data Protection, because there's a couple of key things that happen. When customers take some of these applications and put them in the cloud. They certainly open themselves up for some challenges, or they certainly open up with a cost really takes off if they're not leveraging an efficient data protection solution. So the first, first and foremost customers are adopting and leveraging the cloud more and more. And then about I think the numbers around 70% of customers today are looking to optimize their cloud experience. So they want to use it more, but they definitely understand that they're spending a tremendous amount of dollars out there and they want to optimize it. So we've had an example with a customer that wanted to leverage the cloud more. But the challenge was the cost just wasn't working out for them. And 60% of that cost that they felt they needed to update was their backup and archive. And so we went in, worked with them talked about how we could optimize that environment, to the extent that we could cut their costs in half. So there's a there's definitely a need, customers are going to continue working and going to the cloud, but they need an optimized, efficient Data Protection Solution. And Dell is the only one that can deliver that. >> And speaking of cost for a second, let's pivot on that. Because these days, it seems like the financing for Data Protection Solutions is as important as protecting the data itself. So when your customers are coming to you guys say, hey help us out, we need to leverage out more but we need to do some cost effectively. What are some of the the flexible financing options or even incentives and offers that Dell Technologies is delivering to it's customers? >> Yes. So we've been offering a lot to our customers for years in terms of flexible financing, we have the best finance organization sales financing organization in the world which is our DFS group. And what we've been able to do is start to look at more about how can we offer a subscription pricing to our customers flex on demand. But then on top of that, is we announced another program, which allows customers to extend their payment terms, right? It allows them to, zero dollar finance. So as the customer are really kind of focused on preserving their cash. We are bringing to market solutions, not only with DFS, that makes it more flexible from a consumption standpoint. But we're also looking at how do we kind of bundle some of our solutions together. How do we become more aggressive and help our customers get through this because cash is king for a lot of our customers today. And if we can help them preserve that cash it gives them the flexibility, they're going to remember that. Right? They're going to, they're going to want to partner with us more, they're going to see that we're stepping up to help them get through this difficult time. So, flex on-demand subscription pricing, those are the big things that we're starting to see more and more from our customers and Dell is here to help them with stepping up and helping our customers when it comes to the financing. >> Then imagine that applies not just to the Cloud environment, but also the VMware environment. That's another wave. Talk to me a little bit more about that wave and how you're helping customers to be able to protect their VMware workloads across the entire VMware stack. >> Yeah, and just let me add one thing to, from a when I talk about the financing, it's, it's whether someone runs stuff on-prem or in the cloud. So I know you mentioned that it's it's flexible pricing options across on-prem or off-prem, it doesn't matter. For us, it's a multicloud world and wherever you want to run it, you want to have flexible consumption models. But the topic of VMware which is just an amazing opportunity that we're working together with VMware and the partnership could never be any stronger than it is today is that VMware is working and growing, in every one of our customer environments today. And as they grow, they really need a strong Data Protection Solution that's going to bring governance, that's going to have scale, that's going to have cyber, Cybersecurity on it, that's going to give them that flexibility to be able to protect these workloads. And VMware wants to continue to virtualize more and more workloads, databases. And to do that, you need to be able to say that you can protect them recover that data. So customers are really pressing VMware and VMware is coming to Dell Data Protection to say, look, we're becoming more and more critical, and they've always been critical in the data center. But we really need to partner with you to be able to deliver a full experience and offer that protection that is necessary for a customer's mission-critical environment. So VMware and Dell DPS, I mean, together, no one can compete with us. It's actually exciting where we are today. But most importantly, some of the things that we're doing moving forward. >> And one of the obvious advantages that Dell Technologies has with respect to VMware is joint VMware engineering and that deep integration. Tell me a little bit more about that, and how that is an advantage when you're talking and sell situations with your customers? >> Yeah, it's a. So I always say that probably about 18 months ago, we really started to put together this joint development start to get really tighter from a technology standpoint, because you can't just show up one day and say, Hey, I'm the best in this market, right? You really need to be building, something and get to a point and so about 18 months ago, I tell customers, that's when Dell and VMware really came together and started doing more in terms of strategic solutions. And it's paying off for us. So if you think about VMC, very critical, VMware Cloud, very very important for their future and their success. We were the first to market with that integration. If you think of Kubernetes, and the importance of Kubernetes. Moving forward, we were first integrated with that with VMware, so our engineering investments are paying off. And this is just the beginning of where that relationship is going to be. As we exit this year, our solutions together will be second to none in the market. And quite frankly, there'll be no one else left in the market that can compete with us from a technology and that's good, not just for our customers and our partners, and not just good for Dell DPS. But most importantly, that's really important to VMware right? They're scaling, they're growing tremendously. They're the leader in this market, and they want to continue to own more of a customer experience. And to do that they need a data protection partner that can help them and so we got a great relationship going right now and it's only getting better. >> That's good to hear. So in terms of data protection, let's let's dig into that third wave, which was Cyber Recovery because one of the things that we know is happening during the pandemic is that cybersecurity issues are on the rise. We know that as technology advances, and it's used for good applications. The bad actors also have access to it. I was reading from the FCC the other day that just since March, there are about 1000 new domain names registered every day with COVID-19. There's malware that's easily dropped on a suspecting persons a endpoint because maybe it has a really entirely enticing title from the World Health Organization. What are you seeing in your customer environments with respect to Cyber Recovery? And is it is security now even more of an important factor given that this work from home situation is probably going to continue for some businesses for quite some time? >> Yeah, I think, our customers have a lot of different challenges now with with COVID-19. And one of them was how do you get your workforce working remotely. And sometimes you have to cut corners to get that done. And what that does is open you up for more challenges, more security breaches. And on top of that, is we're seeing the I call them the bad guys, the bad guys are out there right now attacking our customers more than they ever had. So, before COVID-19 ransomware was a big problem. And now it's, it's even worse. And so I think the bad guys see that they have an opportunity to go out there and really hurt some of these companies hold them, hold them for ransom, get some money from them, which is very unfortunate, but at the same time, that's the reality that we're living in. So before COVID-19, we had a massive customer acceptance, so looking at what we delivered from a Cyber Recovery Solution. And now since COVID-19, is about a 4,000% increase in ransomware attacks, we're seeing every one of our customers really starting to adopt the Cyber Recovery Vault that we delivered to the market today. Now we it's this isn't something new, right? We we've been building on this since about 2016. And our solution has gotten better and better and better, to now where absolutely, we've always been the leader in this market. But now we have such an incredible lead with our customers in terms of how we can help them in the challenges that are exacerbating in their install base. We're really in the right place at the right time. It's unfortunate for our customers, but at the same time, they have to protect their assets. They always have to be able to recover their their their assets or the business won't continue. So it's an unfortunate thing for them, but Dell is here to help take care of one of these problems that they have which is protecting their mission-critical assets. >> Right. And this mission-critical assets are on devices. They're in Cloud applications like office 365, or Salesforce business-critical, revenue-critical data. They're in a data center, they're in VMs. How are you helping customers kind of evaluate if they're in a situation now where they realize maybe we haven't put the emphasis into data protection that we need to? How do you help a customer sort of stack rank and prioritize knowing that the threat vectors are fairly holistic and get a solution from Dell Technologies implemented, and securing them as fast as possible? >> Yeah, it's a good it's a good question. It's kind of a hard one to answer because our customers have data everywhere. So it's a hard one for our customers to kind of figure it out. But what we can do is we can start in different places for them so we can work with them on assets that things that absolutely for them to restart their business, we have a solution that allows them or a way that we say look for you to get your business back up and running there's a critical rebuild there's things that absolutely need to be able to lay down your foundation before you even consider dropping assets, or any applications back out there. So that's like a first step of hey, let's at least size out how you get your critical rebuild up and running. But then there's other companies like big banks that say, well, I need all my customer information no matter what, and I need to recover that. So it's it can get a little complicated. Sometimes we have customers, because they have to figure out what assets they want to put in the vault and how do they want to recover that data. And what's the RPO RTO time but for us, we can work with them and say here's the critical rebuild. Here's the first step of getting your information back from the bad guys or back from wherever you're storing it today. But then on top of that, we can start to expand with them. And they can start to protect more and more things and add to the ball more and more the critical applications that they have out there. And, no one understands this better than us. And so it's good because we can help our clients size where they are today, we can help take a snapshot of their environment today. And then we can recommend what we think is step one, and depending on their appetite, depending on their urgency, we could take them from step one to step done, right? We can, we can cover all their assets, so we can start with their mission-critical and move down to other applications. So the good news for our customers, we have the only secure vault in the market. And we also have the expertise and the people to be able to help them understand how they can get going. >> Last question, Jim, for you in terms of the choices of the technologies that Dell Technologies offers to your customers, Dell has been the leader in the purpose-built backup of plan market. Since IDC invented that category, but the market is bifurcating, and we're seeing Integrated Data Protection Appliances IDPA, even though it's a smaller term, that market is growing faster. Talk to me about the different choices of technologies that you deliver to your customers? >> Yeah, I guess there's a couple ways to look at there's a traditional way of a customer building out their solution and that would be the traditional purpose-built backup appliance Data Domain with our software. And so they would kind of build that build on their own, they put the software in the hardware together, and that would be their solution. What we are seeing more and more is that customers are looking for that integrated appliance. And I'm happy to say that, our IDPA solution, which was a little bit behind getting to the market is now right in the center of the market and picking share right? We are easily outgrowing the market. This is something that we're putting our shoulder behind. We're pushing really high with our customers. Our customers are extremely happy. So thank you to the engineering team, the services team, the product management team that, really helped us get from where we were, say three years ago to where we are now. Now our customers are really pushing for that integrated experience, because they're flying to quality. There's a flight to quality right now, someone that might have multiple backup applications might have multiple hardware solutions. They're trying to get to one vendor, they're trying to get to one partner, they are trying to make this a simpler experience. And so from Dell, because we cover all the use cases that our customers have out there, they're looking at us as that one provider, that one vendor that can deliver on the full experience across their whole environment, not just maybe the VMware solution, maybe not just a couple of databases, maybe not just their Cloud applications. They want a vendor that can provide solutions. Across all of their workloads across all of their use cases, and no matter where the data sits in a remote office, on-prem in a data center or in the cloud, and that's where IDPA comes in, we can deliver a solution that covers all customers use cases, with the same experience from Dell, which is second to none. So that's where IDPA is exciting. That's where IDPA is growing up place in the market. And that's where teams have to really spend time helping customers understand how they can consolidate down to one vendor, which is Dell, and be able to cover all of their requirements. So it's pretty exciting time on what we're delivering from an IDPA standpoint. And we are clearly taking share on that market right now. >> Well Jim, thank you for joining me on theCUBE today talking about those three waves, Cloud, VMware, Cyber Recovery and how Dell is really helping your customers rapidly pivot in these turbulent waters to capitalize on some of the new opportunities that are clearly there, we appreciate your time, Jim. >> Yeah, thanks for having me and we're going to continue to ride the waves and be really successful. >> All right, for Jim Clancy, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBES conversation with Dell Technologies. (soft music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, to CUBE's coverage here in San Francisco at RSA Conference 2020. I'm John Furrier, your host. You know, cybersecurity industry's changing. Enterprises are now awake to the fact that it's now a bigger picture around securing the enterprise, 'cause it's not only the data center. It's cloud, it's the edge, a lot of great stuff. We've got a great guest here from Dell EMC. Peter Gerr's a consultant, cyber resilience solutions and services marketing at Dell EMC. Great to see you. >> You too, John. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you again, thank you. >> So, you know, I was joking with Dave Volante just this morning around the three waves of cloud, public cloud, hybrid cloud, multicloud. And we see obviously the progression. Hybrid cloud is where everyone spends most of their time. That's from ground to cloud, on-premises to cloud. So pretty much everyone knows-- >> Peter: On-ramp, kind of. >> That on-prem is not going away. Validated by all the big cloud players. but you got to nail the equation down for on-premises to the cloud, whether it's, I'm Amazon-Amazon, Azure-Azure, whatever, all those clouds. But the multicloud will be a next generation wave. That as an industry backdrop is very, very key. Plus AI and data are huge inputs into solving a lot of what is going to be new gaps, blind spots, whatever insecurity. So I got to, you know, Dell has a history with huge client base, traditional enterprises transforming. You're in the middle of all this, so you got the airplane at 30,000 feet and the companies have to swap out their engines and reboot their teams, and it's a huge task. What's going on with cyber and the enterprises? What are some of the key things? >> Well, so I like to keep it pretty simple. I've been in this industry over 20 years and I've really consistently talked about data as the global currency, right? So it's beautifully simple. Whatever industry you're in, whatever size company you're in, enterprise or even now small to medium businesses, their businesses are driven by data. Connectivity to that data, availability of the data, integrity of the data, and confidentiality of the data. And so sort of the area of the world that I focus upon is protecting customers' most valuable data assets, now, whether those are on-prem, in the cloud, or in a variety of modalities, and ensuring that those assets are protected and isolated from the attack surface, and then ability to recover those critical assets quickly so they can resume business operations. That's really the area that I work in. Now, that data, as you pointed out, it could start on-prem. It could live in multicloud. It can live in a hybrid environment. The key is really to understand that not all data is created equally. If you were to have a widespread cyber attack, really the key is to bring up those critical applications systems and data sets first to return to business operations. >> Yeah, it's funny-- >> Peter: It's really challenging >> You know, it's not funny, it's actually just ironic, but it's really kind of indicative of the society now is that EMC was bought by Dell Storage and the idea of disruption has always been a storage concept. We don't want a lot of disruption when we're doing things, right? >> Peter: None, we can't, yeah. >> So whether it's backup and recovery or cyber ransomware, whatever it is, the idea of non-disruptive operations-- >> Absolutely. >> Has been a core tenant. Now, that's obviously the same for cyber, as you can tell. So I got to ask you, what is your definition and view of cyber resilience? Because, well, that's what we're talking about here, cyber resilience. What's your view on that? >> So when we started developing our cyber recovery solution about five years ago, we used the NIST cybersecurity framework, which is a very well-known standard that defines really five pillars of how organizations can think about building a cyber resilience strategy. A cyber resilience strategy really encompasses everything from perimeter threat detection and response all the way through incident response after an attack and everything that happens in between, protecting the data and recovering the data, right? And critical systems. So I think of cyber resilience as that holistic strategy of protecting an organization and its data from a cyber attack. >> That's great insight. I want to get your thoughts on how that translates into the ecosystem, because this is an ecosystem around cyber resilience. >> Peter: Absolutely. >> And let's just say, and you may or may not be able to comment on this, but RSA is now being sold. >> Peter: Yeah, no, that's fair. >> So that's going out of the Dell family. But you guys have obviously VMware and Secureworks. But it's not just you guys. It's an ecosystem. >> It really is. >> How does Dell now without, with and without RSA, fit into the ecosystem? >> So as I mentioned, cyber resilience is really thought of as a holistic strategy. RSA and other Dell assets like Carbon Black fit in somewhere in that continuum, right? So RSA is really more on threat detection and response, perimeter protection. The area of the business that I work on, data protection and cyber recovery, really doesn't address the prevention of attacks. We really start with the premise that preventing a cyber attack is not 100% possible. If you believe that, then you need to look at protecting and recovering your assets, right? And so whether it's RSA, whether it's Carbon Black, whether it's Secureworks, which is about cyber incident and response, we really work across those groups. It's about technology, processes, and people. It's not any one thing. We also work outside of the Dell technologies umbrella. So we integrate, our cyber recovery solution is integrated with Unisys Stealth. So there's an example of how we're expanding and extending the cyber recovery solution to bring in other industry standards. >> You know, it's interesting. I talk to a lot of people, like, I'm on theCube here at RSA. Everyone wants better technology, but there's also a shift back to best-of-breed, 'cause you want to have the best new technology, but at the same time, you got to have proven solutions. >> Peter: That's the key. >> So what are you guys selling, what is the best-of-breed from Dell that you guys are delivering to customers? What are some of the areas? >> So I'm old EMC guy myself, right? And back from the days of disaster recovery and business continuity, right? More traditional data protection and backup. The reality is that the modern threats of cyber hackers, breaches, insider attacks, whatever you like, those traditional data protection strategies weren't built to address those types of threats. So along with transformation and modernization, we need to modernize our data protection. That's what cyber recovery is. It's a modern solution to the modern threat. And what it does is it augments your data, excuse me, your disaster recovery and your backup environment with a purpose-built isolated air gap digital vault which is built around our proven Data Domain and PowerProtect DD platforms that have been around for over a decade. But what we've done is added intelligence, analytics, we've hardened that system, and we isolate it so customers can protect really their most valuable assets in that kind of a vault. >> So one of things I've been doing some research on and digging into is cyber resilience, which you just talked about, cyber security, which is the industry trend, and you're getting at cyber recovery, okay? >> Peter: Correct. >> Can you talk about some examples of how this all threads together? What are some real recent wins or examples? >> Sure, sure. So think of cyber recovery as a purpose-built digital vault to secure your most valuable assets. Let me give you an example. One of our customers is a global paint manufacturer, okay? And when we worked with them to try to decide what of their apps and data sets should go into this cyber recovery vault, we said, "What is the most critical intellectual property "that you have?" So in their case, and, you know, some customers might say my Oracle financials or my Office 365 environment. For this customer it was their proprietary paint matching system. So they generate $80 to $100 million every day based upon this proprietary paint matching system which they've developed and which they use every day to run their business. If that application, if those algorithms were destroyed, contaminated, or posted on the public internet somewhere, that would fundamentally change that company. So that's really what we're talking about. We're working with customers to help them identify their most critical assets, data, systems, applications, and isolate those from the threat vector. >> Obviously all verticals are impacted by cyber security. >> Every vertical is data-driven, that's right. >> And so obviously the low-hanging fruit, are they the normal suspects, financial services? Is there a particular one that's hotter than, obviously financial services has got fraud and all that stuff on it, but is that still number one, or-- >> So I think there's two sides to the coin. One, if you look at the traditional enterprise environments, absolutely financial services and healthcare 'cause they're both heavily regulated, therefore that data has very high value and is a very attractive target to the would-be hackers. If you look on the other end of the spectrum, though, the small to medium businesses that all rely on the internet for their business to run, they're the ones that are most susceptible because they don't have the budgets, the infrastructure, or the expertise to protect themselves from a sophisticated hacker. So we work across all verticals. Obviously the government is also very susceptible to cyber threats. But it's every industry, any business that's data-driven. I mean, everyone's been breached so many times, no one even knows how many times. I got to ask you about some cool trends we're reporting on here. Homomorphic encryption is getting a lot of traction here because financial services and healthcare are two-- >> Peter: Homomorphic? >> Homomorphic, yeah. Did I say that right? >> It's the first time I've ever heard that term, John. >> It's encryption at in use. So you have data at rest, data in flight, and data in use. So it's encryption when you're doing all your, protecting all your transactional data. So it's full implementation with Discovery. Intel's promoting it. We discovered a startup that's doing that, as well. >> Peter: Yeah, that's new for me, yeah. >> But it allows for more use cases. But data in use, not just motion, or in-flight, whatever they call it. >> Peter: I get it, yeah, static. >> So that's opening up these other thing. But it brings up the why, why that's important, and the reason is that financial services and healthcare, because they're regulated, have systems that were built many moons ago or generations ago. >> Absolutely. >> So there was none of these problems that you were mentioning earlier, like, they weren't built for that. >> Correct. >> But now you need more data. AI needs sharing of data. Sharing is a huge deal. >> Real-time sharing, too, right? >> Real-time sharing. >> And I think that's where the homomorphic encryption comes in. >> That's exactly right. So you mentioned that. So these industries, how can they maintain their existing operations and then get more data sharing? Do you have any insight into how you see that? Because that's one of those areas that's becoming like, okay, HIPAA, we know why that was built, but it's also restrictive. How do you maintain the purity of a process-- >> If your infrastructure is old? That is a challenge, healthcare especially, because, I mean, if I'm running a health system, every dollar that I have should really go into improving patient care, not necessarily into my IT infrastructure. But the more that every industry moves towards a real-time data-driven model for how we give care, right, the more that companies need to realize that data drives their business. They need to do everything they can to protect it and also ensure that they can recover it when and if a cyber attack happens. >> Well, I really appreciate the insight, and it's going to be great to see Dell Technologies World coming up. We'll dig into a lot of that stuff. While we're here and talking us about some of these financial services, banking, I want to get your thoughts. I've been hearing this term Sheltered Harbor being kicked around. What is that about? What does that mean? >> Sheltered Harbor, you're right, I think you'll hear a lot more about it. So Sheltered Harbor is a financial industries group and it's also a set of best practices and specifications. And really, the purpose of Sheltered Harbor is to protect consumer and financial institutions' data and public confidence in the US financial system. So the use case is this. You can imagine that a bank having a cyber attack and being unable to produce transactions could cause problems for customers of that bank. But just like we were talking about, the interconnectedness of the banking system means that one financial institution failing because of a cyber attack, it could trigger a cascade and a panic and a run on the US financial banks and therefore the global financial system. Sheltered Harbor was developed to really protect public confidence in the financial system by ensuring that banks, brokerages, credit unions are protecting their customer data, their account records, their most valuable assets from cyber attack, and that they can recover them and resume banking operations quickly. >> So this is an industry group? >> It's an industry group. >> Or is it a Dell group or-- >> No, Sheltered Harbor is a US financial industry group. It's a non-profit. You can learn more about it at shelteredharbor.org. The interesting thing for Dell Technologies is we're actually the first member of the Sheltered Harbor solution provider program, and we'll be announcing that shortly, in fact, this week, and we'll have a cyber recovery for Sheltered Harbor solution in the market very shortly. >> Cyber resilience, great topic, and you know, it just goes to show storage is never going away. The basic concepts of IT, recovery, continuous operations, non-disruptive operations. Cloud scale changes the game. >> Peter: It's all about the data. >> It's all about the data. >> Still, yes, sir. >> Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. >> Thank you, John. >> RSA coverage here, CUBE, day two of three days of coverage. I'm John Furrier here on the ground floor in Moscone in San Francisco. Thanks for watching (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From London, England, it's theCUBE! Covering Coupa Insp!re'19 EMEA. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Coupa Insp!re'19. Can you hear all the buzz around me? You probably can hear it, it's electric. The keynote just ended, and I'm very pleased to welcome, fresh from the keynote stage, we have Rachel Botsman, author and trust expert from Oxford University. Rachel, welcome to theCUBE! >> Thank you for having me. >> Your talk this morning about the intersection of trust and technology, to say it's interesting is an understatement. You had some great examples where you showed some technology brands, that we all know, and have different relationships with: Uber, Facebook, and Amazon. And the way that you measured the audience is great, you know, clap the brand that you trust the most. And it was so interesting, because we expect these technology brands to, they should be preserving our information, but we've also seen recent history, some big examples, of that trust being broken. >> Rachel: Yeah, yeah. >> Talk to us about your perspectives. >> So what I thought was interesting, well kind of unexpected for me, was no one clapped for Facebook, not one person in the room. And this is really interesting to me, because the point that I was making is that trust is really, really contextual, right? So if I had said to people, do you trust on Facebook that you can find your friends from college, they probably would've clapped. But do I trust them with my data, no. And this distinction is so important, because if you lose trust in one area as a company or a brand, and it can take time, you lose that ability to interact with people. So our relationship and our trust relationship with brands is incredibly complicated. But I think, particular tech brands, what they're realizing is that, how badly things go wrong when they're in a trust crisis. >> Talk to me about trust as a currency. You gave some great examples this morning. Money is the currency for transactions, where trust is the currency of interactions. >> Yeah, well I was trying to frame things, not because they sound nice, but how do you create a lens where people can really understand, like what is the value of this thing, and what is the role that it plays? And I'm never going to say money's not important; money is very important. But people can understand money; people value money. And I think that's because it has a physical, you can touch it, and it has an agreed value, right? Trust I actually don't believe can be measured. Trust is, what is it? It's something there, there's a connection between people. So you know when you have trust because you can interact with people. You know when you have trust because you can place their faith in them, you can share things about yourself and also share things back. So it's kind of this idea that, think of it as a currency, think of it as something that you should really value that is incredibly fragile in any situation in any organization. >> How does a company like Coupa, or an Amazon or a Facebook, how do they leverage trust and turn it into a valuable asset? >> Yeah, I don't like the idea that you sort of unlock trust. I think companies that really get it right are companies that think day in and day out around behaviors and culture. If you get behaviors and culture right, like the way people behave, whether they have empathy, whether they have integrity, whether you feel like you can depend on them, trust naturally flows from that. But the other thing that often you find with brands is they think of trust as like this reservoir, right? So it's different from awareness and loyalty; it's not like this thing that, you can have this really full up battery which means then you can launch some crazy products and everyone will trust it. We've seen this with like, Mattel, the toy brand. They launched a smart system for children called Aristotle, and within six months they had to pull it because people didn't trust what it was recording and watching in people's bedrooms. We were talking about Facebook and the cryptocurrency Libra, their new smart assistants; I wouldn't trust that. Amazon have introduced smart locks; I don't know if you've seen these? >> Lisa: Yes. >> Where if you're not home, it's inconvenient for a very annoying package slip. So you put in an Amazon lock and the delivery person will walk into your home. I trust Amazon to deliver my parcels; I don't trust them to give access to my home. So what we do with the trust and how we tap into that, it really depends on the risk that we're asking people to take. >> That's a great point that you bring about Amazon, because you look at how they are infiltrating our lives in so many different ways. There's a lot of benefits to it, in terms of convenience. I trust Amazon, because I know when I order something it's going to arrive when they say it will. But when you said about trust being contextual and said do you trust that Amazon pays their taxes, I went wow, I hadn't thought of it in that way. Would I want to trust them to come into my home to drop off a package, no. >> Rachel: Yeah. >> But the, I don't know if I want to say infiltration, into our lives, it's happening whether we like it or not. >> Well I think Amazon is really interesting. First of all because so often as consumers, and I'm guilty, we let convenience trump trust. So we talk about trust, but, you know what, like, if I don't really trust that Uber driver but I really want to get somewhere, I'll get in the car, right? I don't really trust the ethics of Amazon as a company or like what they're doing in the world, but I like the convenience. I predict that Amazon is actually going to go through a major trust crisis. >> Lisa: Really? >> Yeah. The reason why is because their trust is largely, I talked about capability and character. Amazon's trust is really built around capability. The capability of their fulfillment centers, like how efficient they are. Character wobbles, right? Like, does Bezos have integrity? Do we really feel like they care about the bookshops they're eating up? Or they want us to spend money on the right things? And when you have a brand and the trust is purely built around capability and the character piece is missing, it's quite a precarious place to be. >> Lisa: I saw a tweet that you tweeted recently. >> Uh oh! (laughs) >> Lisa: On the difference between capability and character. >> Yes, yeah. >> Lisa: And it was fascinating because you mentioned some big examples, Boeing. >> Yes. >> The two big air disasters in the last year. Facebook, obviously, the security breach. WeWork, this overly aggressive business model. And you said these companies are placing the blame, I'm not sure if that's the right word-- >> No no, the blame, yeah. >> On product or service capabilities, and you say it really is character. Can you talk to our audience about the difference, and why character is so important. >> Yeah, it's so interesting. So you know, sometimes you post things. I actually post more on LinkedIn, and suddenly like, you hit a nerve, right? Because I don't know, it's something you're summarizing that many people are feeling. And so the point of that was like, if you look at Boeing, Theranos was another example, WeWork, hundreds of banks, when something goes wrong they say it was a flaw in the product, it was a flaw in the system, it's a capability problem. And I don't think that's the case. Because the root cause of capability problems come from character and culture. And so, capability is really about the competence and reliability of someone or a product or service. Character is how someone behaves. Character gets to their intentions and motives. Character gets to, did they know about it and not tell us. Even VW is another example. >> Lisa: Yes. >> So it's not the product that is the issue. And I think we as consumers and citizens and customers, where many companies get it wrong in a trust crisis is they talk about the product fix. We won't forgive them, or we won't start giving them our trust again until we really believe something's changed about their character. I'm not sure anything has changed with Facebook's culture and character, which is why they're struggling with every move that they take, even though their intentions might be good. That's not how people in the world are viewing them. >> Do you think, taking Boeing as an example, I fly a lot, I'm sure you do as well. >> Rachel: Yeah. >> When those accidents happened, I'm sure everybody, including myself, was checking, what plane is this? >> Rachel: Yeah. >> Because when you know, especially once data starts being revealed, that demonstrated pilots, test pilots, were clearly saying something isn't right here, why do you think a company like Boeing isn't coming out and addressing that head on from an integrity perspective? Do you think that could go a long way in helping their brand reputation? >> I never, I mean I do get it, I'm married to a lawyer so I understand, legal gets involved, governance gets involved, so it's like, let's not disclose that. They're so worried about the implications. But it's this belief they can keep things hidden. It's a continual pattern, right? And that they try to show empathy, but really it comes across as some weird kind of sympathy. They don't really show humility. And so, when the CEO sits there, I have to believe he feels the pain of the human consequence of what happened. But more importantly, I have to believe it will never happen again. And again, it's not necessarily, do I trust the products Boeing creates, it's do I trust the people? Do I trust the decisions that they're making? And so it's really interesting to watch companies, Samsung, right? You can recover from a product crisis, with the phones, and they kind of go away. But it's much harder to recover from what, Boeing is a perfect example, has become a cultural crisis. >> Right, right. Talk to us about the evolution of trust. You talked about these three waves. Tell our audience about that, and what the third wave is and why we're in it, benefits? And also things to be aware of. >> Yes! (laughs) I didn't really talk about this today, because it's all about inspiration. So just to give you a sense, the way I think about trust is three chapters of human history. So the first one is called local trust; all running around villages and communities. I knew you, I knew your sister, I knew whoever was in that village. And it was largely based on reputation. So, I borrowed money from someone I knew, I went to the baker. Now this type of trust, it was actually phenomenally effective, but we couldn't scale it. So when we wanted to trade globally, the Industrial Revolution, moving to cities, we invented what I call institutional trust. And that's everything from financial systems to insurance products, all these mechanisms that allow trust to flow on a different level. Now what's happening today, it's not those two things are going away and they're not important; they are. It's that what technology inherently does, particularly networks, marketplaces, and platforms, is it takes this trust that used to be very hierarchical and linear, we used to look up to the CEO, we used to look up to the expert, and it distributes it around networks and platforms. So you can see that at Coupa, right? And this is amazing because it can unlock value, it can create marketplaces. It can change the way we share, connect, collaborate. But I think what's happened is that, sort of the idealism around this and the empowerment is slightly tinged, in a healthy way, realizing a lot can go wrong. So distributed trust doesn't necessarily mean distributed responsibility. My biggest insight from observing many of these communities is that, we like the idea of empowerment, we like the idea of collaboration, and we like the idea of control, but when things go wrong, they need a center. Does that make sense? >> Lisa: Absolutely, yes. >> So, a lot of the mess that we're seeing in the world today is actually caused by distributed trust. So when I like, read a piece of information that isn't from a trusted source and I make a decision to vote for someone, just an example. And so we're trying to figure out, what is the role of the institution in this distributed world? And that's why I think things have got incredibly messy. >> It certainly has the potential for that, right? Looking at, one of the things that I also saw that you were talking about, I think it was one of your TED Talks, is reputation capital. And you said you believe that will be more powerful than credit history in the 21st century. How can people, like you and I, get, I want to say control, over our reputation, when we're doing so many transactions digitally-- >> Rachel: I know. >> And like I think you were saying in one of your talks, moving from one country to another and your credit history doesn't follow you. How can somebody really control their trust capital and creative positive power from it? >> They can't. >> They can't? Oh no! >> I don't want to disappoint you, but there's always something in a TED speech that you wish you could take out, like 10 years later, and be like, not that you got it wrong, but that there's a naivety, right? So it is working in some senses. So what is really hard is like, if I have a reputation on Airbnb, I have a reputation on Amazon, on either side of the marketplace, I feel like I own that, right? That's my value, and I should be able to aggregate that and use that to get a loan, or get a better insurance, because it's a predictor of how I behave in the future. So I don't believe credit scores are a good predictor of behavior. That is very hard to do, because the marketplaces, they believe they own the data, and they have no incentive to share the reputation. So believe me, like so many companies after, actually it was wonderful after that TED Talk, many tried to figure out how to aggregate reputation. Where I have seen it play out as an idea, and this is really very rewarding, is many entrepreneurs have taken the idea and gone to emerging markets, or situations where people have no credit history. So Tala is a really good example, which is a lending company. Insurance companies are starting to look at this. There's a company called Traity. Where they can't get a loan, they can't get a product, they can't even open a bank account because they have no traditional credit history. Everyone has a reputation somewhere, so they can tap into these networks and use that to have access to things that were previously inaccessible. So that's the application I'm more excited about versus having a trust score. >> A trust score that we would be able to then use for our own advantages, whether it's getting a job, getting a loan. >> Yeah, and then unfortunately what also happened was China, and God forbid that I in any way inspired this decision, decided they would have a national trust score. So they would take what you're buying online and what you were saying online, all these thousands of interactions, and that the government would create a trust score that would really impact your life: the schools that your children could go to, and there's a blacklist, and you know, if you jaywalk your face is projected and your score goes down. Like, this is like an episode of Black Mirror. >> It's terrifying. >> Yeah. >> There's a fine line there. Rachel, I wish we had more time, because we could keep going on and on and on. But I want to thank you-- >> A pleasure. >> For coming right from the keynote stage to our set; it was a pleasure to meet you. >> On that dark note. >> Yes! (laughing) For Rachel Botsman, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE from Coupa Insp!re London '19. Thanks for watching. (digital music)