(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Its first inaugural event. It's theCUBE's coverage. We were there at the first event for a KubeCon before CNCF kind of took it over. It was in Seattle. And so in Seattle this week is Cloud Native SecurityCon. Of course, theCUBE is there covering via our Palo Alto Studios and our experts around the world who are bringing in Bassam Tabbara who's the CEO and founder of upbound.io. That's the URL, but Upbound is the company. The creators of Crossplane. Really kind of looking at the Crossplane, across the abstraction layer, across clouds. A big part of, as we call supercloud trend. Bassam, great to see you. You've been legend in the open source community. Great to have you on. >> Thanks, John. Always good to be on theCUBE. >> I really wanted to bring you in 'cause I want to get your perspective. You've seen the movie, you've seen open source software grow, it continues to grow. Now you're starting to see the Linux Foundation, which has CNCF really expanding their realm. They got the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon, which is Kubernetes event. That's gotten so massive and so successful. We've been to every single one as you know. I've seen you there and all of them as well. So that's going great. Now they got this new event that's spins out dedicated to security. Everybody wants to know why the new event? What's the focus? Is it needed? What will they do? What's different from KubeCon? Where do I play? And so there's a little bit of a question mark in the ecosystem around this event. And so we've been reporting on it. Looking good so far. People are buzzing, again, they're keeping it small. So that kind of managing expectations like any good event would do. But I think it's been successful, which I wanted like to get your take on how you see it. Is this good? Are you indifferent? Are you excited by this? What's your take? >> I mean, look, it's super exciting to see all the momentum around cloud native. Obviously there are different dimensions of cloud native securities, an important piece. Networking, storage, compute, like all those things I think tie back together and in some ways you can look at this event as a focused event on the security aspect as it relates to cloud native. And there are lots of vendors in this space. There's lots of interesting projects in the space, but the unifying theme is that they come together and probably around the Kubernetes API and the momentum around cloud native and with Kubernetes at the center of it. >> On the focus on Kubernetes, it seems this event is kind of classic security where you want to have deep dives. Again, I call it the event operating system 'cause you decouple, make things highly cohesive, and you link them together. I don't see a problem with it. I kind of like this. I gave it good reviews if they stay focused because security is super critical. There was references to bind and DNS. There's a lot of things in the infrastructure plumbing that need to be looked at or managed or figured out or just refactored for modernization needs. And I know you've done a lot with storage, for instance, storage, networking, kernel. There's a lot of things in the old tech or tech in the cloud that needs to be kind, I won't say rebooted, but maybe reset or jump. Do you see it that way? Are there things that need to get done or is it just that there's so much complexity in the different cloud cluster code thing going on? >> It's obviously security is a very, very big space and there are so many different aspects of it that people you can go into. I think the thing that's interesting around the cloud native community is that there is a unifying theme. Like forget the word cloud native for a second, but the unifying theme is that people are building around what looks like a standardized play around Kubernetes and the Kubernetes API. And as a result you can recast a lot of the technologies that we are used to in the past in a traditional security sense. You can recast them on top of this new standardized approach or on Kubernetes, whether it's policy or protecting a supply chain or scanning, or like a lot of the access control authorization, et cetera. All of those things can be either revived to apply to this cloud native play and the Kubernetes play or creating new opportunities for companies to actually build new and interesting projects and companies around a standardized play. >> Do you think this also will help the KubeCon be more focused around the developer areas there and just touching on security versus figuring out how to take something so important in KubeCon, which the stakeholders in KubeCon have have grown so big, I can see security sucking a lot of oxygen out of the room there. So here you move it over, you keep it over here. Will anything change on the KubeCon site? We'll be there in in Amsterdam in April. What do you think the impact will be? Good? Is it good for the community? Just good swim lanes? What's your take? >> Yeah, I still think KubeCon will be an umbrella event for the whole cloud native community. I suspect that you'll see some of the same vendors and projects and everything else represented in KubeCon. The way I think about all the branched cloud native events are essentially a way to have a more focused discussion, get people together to talk about security topics or networking topics or things that are more focused way. But I don't think it changes the the effect of KubeCon being the umbrella around all of it. So I think you'll see the same presence and maybe larger presence going forward at Amsterdam. We're planning to be there obviously and I'm excited to be there and I think it'll be a big event and having a smaller event is not going to diminish the effect of KubeCon. >> And if you look at the developer community they've all been online for a long time, from IRC chat to now Slack and now new technologies and stuff like Discord out there. The event world has changed post-pandemic. So it makes sense. And we're seeing this with all vendors, by the way, and projects. The digital community angle is huge because if you have a big tent event like KubeCon you can make that a rallying moment in the industry and then have similar smaller events that are highly focused that build off that that are just connective tissue or subnets, if you will, or communities targeted for really deeper conversations. And they could be smaller events. They don't have to be monster events, but they're connected and traverse into the main event. This might be the event format for the future for all companies, whether it's AWS or a company that has a community where you create this network effect, if you will, around the people. >> That's right. And if you look at things like AWS re:Invent, et cetera, I mean, that's a massive events. And in some ways it, if it was a set of smaller sub events, maybe it actually will flourish more. I don't know, I'm not sure. >> They just killed the San Francisco event. >> That's right. >> But they have re:Inforce, all right, so they just established that their big events are re:Invent and re:Inforce as their big. >> Oh, I didn't hear about re:Inforce. That's news to me. >> re:Inforce is their third event. So they're doing something similar as CloudNativeCon, which is you have to have an event and then they're going to create a lot of sub events underneath. So I think they are trying to do that. Very interesting. >> Very interesting for sure. >> So let's talk about what you guys are up to. I know from your standpoint, you had a lot of security conversations. How is Crossplane doing? Obviously, you saw our Supercloud coverage. You guys fit right into that model where clients, customers, enterprises are going to want to have multiple cloud operating environments for whatever the use case, whether you're using ChatGPT, you got to get an Azure instance up and running for that. Now with APIs, we're hearing a lot of developers doing that. So you're going to start to see this cross cloud as VMware calls, what we call it supercloud. There's more need for Crossplane like thinking. What's the update? >> For sure, and we see this very clearly as well. So the fact that there is a standardization layer, there is a layer that lets you converge the different vendors that you have, the different clouds that you have, the different hype models that you have, whether it's hybrid or private, public, et cetera. The unifying theme is that you're literally bringing all those things under one control plane that enables you to actually centralize and standardize on security, access control, helps you standardize on cost control, quota policy, as well as create a self-service experience for your developers. And so from a security standpoint, the beauty of this is like, you could use really popular projects like open policy agent or Kyverno or others if you want to do policy and do so uniformly across your entire stack, your entire footprint of tooling, vendors, services and across deployment models. Those things are possible because you're standardizing and consolidating on a control plane on top of all. And that's the thing that gets our customers excited. That we're seeing in the community that they could actually now normalize standardize on small number of projects and tools to manage everything. >> We were talking about that in our summary of the keynote yesterday. Dave Vellante and I were talking about the idea of clients want to have a redo of their security. They've been, just the tooling has been building up. They got zero trust in place, maybe with some big vendor, but now got the cloud native opportunity to refactor and reset and reinvent their security paradigm. And so that's the positive thing we're hearing. Now we're seeing enterprises want this cross cloud capabilities or Crossplane like thinking that you guys are talking about. What are your customers telling you? Can you share from an enterprise perspective where they're at in this journey? Because part of the security problems that we've been reporting on has been because clients are moving from IT to cloud native and not everyone's moved over yet. So they're highly vulnerable to ransomware and all kinds of other crap. So another attacks, so they're wide open, But people who are moving into cloud native, are they stepping up their game on this Crossplane opportunity? Where are they at? Can you share data on that? >> Yeah, we're grateful to be talking to a lot of customers these days. And the interesting thing is even if you talked about large financial institutions, banks, et cetera, the common theme that we hear is that they bought tools for each of the different departments and however they're organized. Sometimes you see the folks that are running databases, networking, being separated from say, the computer app developers or they're all these different departments within an organization. And for each one of those, they've made localized decisions for tooling and services that they bought. What we're seeing now consistently is that they're all together, getting together, and trying to figure out how to standardize on a smaller one set of tooling and services that goes across all the different departments and all different aspects of the business that they're running. And this is where this discussion gets a lot very interesting. If instead of buying a different policy tool for each department, or once that fits it you could actually standardize on policy or the entire footprint of services that they're managing. And you get that by standardizing on a control plane or standardizing on effectively one point of control for everything that they're doing. And that theme is like literally, it gets all our customers excited. This is why they're engaging in all of this. It's almost the holy grail. The thing that I've been trying to do for a long time. >> I know. >> And it's finally happening. >> I know you and I have talked about this many times, but I got to ask you the one thing that jumps into everybody's head when you hear control plane is lock-in. So how do you discuss that lock-in, perception from the reality of the situation? How do you unpack that for the customer? 'Cause they want choice at the end of the day. There's the preferred vendors for sure on the hyperscale side and app side and open source, but what's the lock-in? What does the lock-in conversation look like? Or do they even have that conversation? >> Yeah. To be honest, I mean, so their lock-in could be a two dimensions here. Most of our customers and people are using Crossplane or using app on product around it. Most of our do, concentrated in, say a one cloud vendor and have others. So I don't think this is necessarily about multicloud per se or being locked into one vendor. But they do manage many different services and they have legacy tooling and they have different systems that they bought at different stages and they want to bring them all together. And by bringing them all together that helps them make choices about consulting or even replacing some of them. But right now everything is siloed, everything is separate, both organizationally as well as the code bases or investments and tooling or contracts. Everything is just completely separated and it requires humans to put them together. And organizations actually try to gather around and put them together. I don't know if lock-in is the driving goal for this, but it is standardization consolidation. That's the driving initiative. >> And so unification and building is the big driver. They're building out >> Correct, and you can ask why are they doing that? What does standardization help with? It helps them to become more productive. They can move faster, they can innovate faster. Not as a ton of, like literally revenue written all over. So it's super important to them that they achieved this, increase their pace of innovation around this and they do that by standardizing. >> The great point in all this and your success at Upbound and now CNCF success with KubeCon + CloudNativeCon and now with the inaugural event of Cloud Native SecurityCon is that the customers are involved, a lot of end users are involved. There's a big driver not only from the industry and the developers and getting architecture right and having choice. The customers want this to happen. They're leaning in, they're part of it. So that's a big driver. Where does this go? If you had to throw a dart at the board five years from now Cloud Native SecurityCon, what does it look like if you had to predict the trajectory of this event and community? >> Yeah, I mean, look, I think the trajectory one is that we have what looks like a standardization layer emerging that is all encompassing. And as a result, there is a ton of opportunity for vendors, projects, communities to build around within on top of this layer. And essentially create, I think you talked about an operating system earlier and decentralized aspect of this, but it's an opportunity to actually, what it looks like for the first time we have a convergence happening industry-wide and through open source and open source foundations. And I think that means that there'll be new opportunity and lots of new projects and things that are created in the space. And it also means that if you don't attach this space, you'll likely be left out. >> Awesome. Bassam, great to have you on, great expert commentary, obviously multi CUBE alumni and supporter of theCUBE and as you become successful we really appreciate your support for helping us get the content out there. And best of luck to your team and thanks for weighing in on Cloud Native SecurityCon. >> Awesome. It's always good talking to you, John. Thank you. >> Great stuff. This is more CUBE coverage from Palo Alto, getting folks on the ground on location, getting us the stories in Seattle. Of course, Cloud Native SecurityCon, the inaugural event, which looks like will be the beginning of a series of multi-year journey for the CNCF, focusing on security. Of course, theCUBE's here to cover it, every angle of it, and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. Day two of theCUBE's coverage of re:MARS in Las Vegas. Amazon re:MARS, it's part of the Re Series they call it at Amazon. re:Invent is their big show, re:Inforce is a security show, re:MARS is the new emerging machine learning automation, robotics, and space. The confluence of machine learning powering a new industrial age and inflection point. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here to break it down for another wall to wall coverage. We've got a great guest here, CUBE alumni from our AWS startup showcase, Krishna Gade, founder and CEO of fiddler.ai. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Great to see you, John. >> In person. We did the remote one before. >> Absolutely, great to be here, and I always love to be part of these interviews and love to talk more about what we're doing. >> Well, you guys have a lot of good street cred, a lot of good word of mouth around the quality of your product, the work you're doing. I know a lot of folks that I admire and trust in the AI machine learning area say great things about you. A lot going on, you guys are growing companies. So you're kind of like a startup on a rocket ship, getting ready to go, pun intended here at the space event. What's going on with you guys? You're here. Machine learning is the centerpiece of it. Swami gave the keynote here at day two and it really is an inflection point. Machine learning is now ready, it's scaling, and some of the examples that they were showing with the workloads and the data sets that they're tapping into, you know, you've got CodeWhisperer, which they announced, you've got trust and bias now being addressed, we're hitting a level, a new level in ML, ML operations, ML modeling, ML workloads for developers. >> Yep, yep, absolutely. You know, I think machine learning now has become an operational software, right? Like you know a lot of companies are investing millions and billions of dollars and creating teams to operationalize machine learning based products. And that's the exciting part. I think the thing that that is very exciting for us is like we are helping those teams to observe how those machine learning applications are working so that they can build trust into it. Because I believe as Swami was alluding to this today, without actually building trust into AI, it's really hard to actually have your business users use it in their business workflows. And that's where we are excited about bringing their trust and visibility factor into machine learning. >> You know, a lot of us all know what you guys are doing here in the ecosystem of AWS. And now extending here, take a minute to explain what Fiddler is doing for the folks that are in the space, that are in discovery mode, trying to understand who's got what, because like Swami said on stage, it's a full-time job to keep up on all the machine learning activities and tool sets and platforms. Take a minute to explain what Fiddler's doing, then we can get into some, some good questions. >> Absolutely. As the enterprise is taking on operationalization of machine learning models, one of the key problems that they run into is lack of visibility into how those models perform. You know, for example, let's say if I'm a bank, I'm trying to introduce credit risk scoring models using machine learning. You know, how do I know when my model is rejecting someone's loan? You know, when my model is accepting someone's loan? And why is it doing it? And I think this is basically what makes machine learning a complex thing to implement and operationalize. Without this visibility, you cannot build trust and actually use it in your business. With Fiddler, what we provide is we actually open up this black box and we help our customers to really understand how those models work. You know, for example, how is my model doing? Is it accurately working or not? You know, why is it actually rejecting someone's loan application? We provide these both fine grain as well as coarse grain insights. So our customers can actually deploy machine learning in a safe and trustworthy manner. >> Who is your customer? Who you're targeting? What persona is it, the data engineer, is it data science, is it the CSO, is it all the above? >> Yeah, our customer is the data scientist and the machine learning engineer, right? And we usually talk to teams that have a few models running in production, that's basically our sweet spot, where they're trying to look for a single pane of glass to see like what models are running in their production, how they're performing, how they're affecting their business metrics. So we typically engage with like head of data science or head of machine learning that has a few machine learning engineers and data scientists. >> Okay, so those people that are watching, you're into this, you can go check it out. It's good to learn. I want to get your thoughts on some trends that I see emerging, and I want to get your reaction to those. Number one, we're seeing the cloud scale now and integration a big part of things. So the time to value was brought up on stage today, Swami kind of mentioned time to value, showed some benchmark where they got four hours, some other teams were doing eight weeks. Where are we on the progression of value, time to value, and on the scale side. Can you scope that for me? >> I mean, it depends, right? You know, depending upon the company. So for example, when we work with banks, for them to time to operationalize a model can take months actually, because of all the regulatory procedures that they have to go through. You know, they have to get the models reviewed by model validators, model risk management teams, and then they audit those models, they have to then ship those models and constantly monitor them. So it's a very long process for them. And even for non-regulated sectors, if you do not have the right tools and processes in place, operationalizing machine learning models can take a long time. You know, with tools like Fiddler, what we are enabling is we are basically compressing that life cycle. We are helping them automate like model monitoring and explainability so that they can actually ship models more faster. Like you get like velocity in terms of shipping models. For example, one of the growing fintech companies that started with us last year started with six models in production, now they're running about 36 models in production. So it's within a year, they were able to like grow like 10x. So that is basically what we are trying to do. >> At other things, we at re:MARS, so first of all, you got a great product and a lot of markets that grow onto, but here you got space. I mean, anyone who's coming out of college or university PhD program, and if they're into aero, they're going to be here, right? This is where they are. Now you have a new core companies with machine learning, not just the engineering that you see in the space or aerospace area, you have a new engineering. Now I go back to the old days where my parents, there was Fortran, you used Fortran was Lingua Franca to manage the equipment. Little throwback to the old school. But now machine learning is companion, first class citizen, to the hardware. And in fact, and some will say more important. >> Yep, I mean, machine learning model is the new software artifact. It is going into production in a big way. And I think it has two different things that compare to traditional software. Number one, unlike traditional software, it's a black box. You cannot read up a machine learning model score and see why it's making those predictions. Number two, it's a stochastic entity. What that means is it's predictive power can wane over time. So it needs to be constantly monitored and then constantly refreshed so that it's actually working in tech. So those are the two main things you need to take care. And if you can do that, then machine learning can give you a huge amount of ROI. >> There is some practitioner kind of like craft to it. >> Correct. >> As you said, you got to know when to refresh, what data sets to bring in, which to stay away from, certainly when you get to the bias, but I'll get to that in a second. My next question is really along the lines of software. So if you believe that open source will dominate the software business, which I do, I mean, most people won't argue. I think you would agree with that, right? Open source is driving everything. If everything's open source, where's the differentiation coming from? So if I'm a startup entrepreneur or I'm a project manager working on the next Artemis mission, I got to open source. Okay, there's definitely security issues here. I don't want to talk about shift left right now, but like, okay, open source is everything. Where's the differentiation, where do I have the proprietary edge? >> It's a great question, right? So I used to work in tech companies before Fiddler. You know, when I used to work at Facebook, we would build everything in house. We would not even use a lot of open source software. So there are companies like that that build everything in house. And then I also worked at companies like Twitter and Pinterest, which are actually used a lot of open source, right? So now, like the thing is, it depends on the maturity of the organization. So if you're a Facebook or a Google, you can build a lot of things in house. Then if you're like a modern tech company, you would probably leverage open source, but there are lots of other companies in the world that still don't have the talent pool to actually build, take things from open source and productionize it. And that's where the opportunity for startups comes in so that we can commercialize these things, create a great enterprise experience, so actually operationalize things for them so that they don't have to do it in house for them. And that's the advantage working with startups. >> I don't want to get all operating systems with you on theory here on the stage here, but I will have to ask you the next question, which I totally agree with you, by the way, that's the way to go. There's not a lot of people out there that are peaked. And that's just statistical and it'll get better. Data engineering is really narrow. That is like the SRE of data. That's a new role emerging. Okay, all the things are happening. So if open source is there, integration is a huge deal. And you start to see the rise of a lot of MSPs, managed service providers. I run Kubernetes clusters, I do this, that, and the other thing. So what's your reaction to the growth of the integration side of the business and this role of new services coming from third parties? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the big challenges for a chief data officer or someone like a CTO is how do they devise this infrastructure architecture and with components, either homegrown components or open source components or some vendor components, and how do they integrate? You know, when I used to run data engineering at Pinterest, we had to devise a data architecture combining all of these things and create something that actually flows very nicely, right? >> If you didn't do it right, it would break. >> Absolutely. And this is why it's important for us, like at Fiddler, to really make sure that Fiddler can integrate to all varies of ML platforms. Today, a lot of our customers use machine learning, build machine learning models on SageMaker. So Fiddler nicely integrate with SageMaker so that data, they get a seamless experience to monitor their models. >> Yeah, I mean, this might not be the right words for it, but I think data engineering as a service is really what I see you guys doing, as well other things, you're providing all that. >> And ML engineering as a service. >> ML engineering as a- Well it's hard. I mean, it's like the hard stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Hear, hear. But that has to enable. So you as a business entrepreneur, you have to create a multiple of value proposition to your customers. What's your vision on that? What is that value? It has to be a multiple, at least 5 to 10. >> I mean, the value is simple, right? You know, if you have to operationize machine learning, you need visibility into how these things work. You know, if you're CTO or like chief data officer is asking how is my model working and how is it affecting my business? You need to be able to show them a dashboard, how it's working, right? And so like a data scientist today struggles to do this. They have to manually generate a report, manually do this analysis. What Fiddler is doing them is basically reducing their work so that they can automate these things and they can still focus on the core aspect of model building and data preparation and this boring aspect of monitoring the model and creating reports around the models is automated for them. >> Yeah, you guys got a great business. I think it's a lot of great future there and it's only going to get bigger. Again, the TAM's going to expand as the growth rising tide comes in. I want to ask you on while we're on that topic of rising tides, Dave Malik and I, since re:Invent last year have been kind of kicked down around this term that we made up called supercloud. And supercloud was a word that came out of these clouds that were not Amazon hyperscalers. So Snowflake, Buildman Sachs, Capital One, you name it, they're building massive proprietary value on top of the CapEx of Amazon. Jerry Chen at Greylock calls it castles in the cloud. You can create these moats. >> Yeah, right. >> So this is a phenomenon, right? And you land on one, and then you go to the others. So the strategies, everyone goes to Amazon first, and then hits Azure and GCP. That then creates this kind of multicloud so, okay, so super cloud's kind of happening, it's a thing. Charles Fitzgerald will disagree, he's a platformer, he says he's against the term. I get why, but he's off base a little. We can't wait to debate him on that. So superclouds are happening, but now what do I do about multicloud, because now I understand multicloud, I have this on that cloud, integrating across clouds is a very difficult thing. >> Krishna: Right, right, right. >> If I'm Snowflake or whatever, hey, I'll go to Azure, more TAM expansion, more market. But are people actually working together? Are we there yet? Where it's like, okay, I'm going to re-operationalize this code base over here. >> I mean, the reality of it, enterprise wants optionality, right? I think they don't want to be locked in into one particular cloud vendor on one particular software. And therefore you actually have in a situation where you have a multicloud scenario where they want to have some workloads in Amazon, some workloads in Azure. And this is an opportunity for startups like us because we are cloud agnostic. We can monitor models wherever you have. So this is where a lot of our customers, they have some of their models are running in their data centers and some of their models running in Amazon. And so we can provide a universal single pan of glass, right? So we can basically connect all of those data and actually showcase. I think this is an opportunity for startups to combine the data streams come from various different clouds and give them a single pain of experience. That way, the sort of the where is your data, where are my models running, which cloud are there, is all abstracted out from the customer. Because at the end of the day, enterprises will want optionality. And we are in this multicloud. >> Yeah, I mean, this reminds me of the interoperability days back when I was growing into the business. Everything was interoperability and OSI and the standards came out, but what's your opinion on openness, okay? There's a kneejerk reaction right now in the market to go silo on your data for governance or whatever reasons, but yet machine learning gurus and experts will say, "Hey, you want to horizon horizontal scalability and have the best machine learning models, you've got to have access to data and fast in real time or near real time." And the antithesis is siloing. >> Krishna: Right, right, right. >> So what's the solution? Customers control the data plane and have a control plane that's... What do customers do? It's a big challenge. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think there are multiple different architectures of ML, right, you know? We've seen like where vendors like us used to deploy completely on-prem, right? And they still do it, we still do it in some customers. And then you had this managed cloud experience where you just abstract out the entire operations from the customer. And then now you have this hybrid experience where you split the control plane and data plane. So you preserve the privacy of the customer from the data perspective, but you still control the infrastructure, right? I don't think there's a right answer. It depends on the product that you're trying to solve. You know, Databricks is able to solve this control plane, data plane split really well. I've seen some other tools that have not done this really well. So I think it all depends upon- >> What about Snowflake? I think they a- >> Sorry, correct. They have a managed cloud service, right? So predominantly that's their business. So I think it all depends on what is your go to market? You know, which customers you're talking to? You know, what's your product architecture look like? You know, from Fiddler's perspective today, we actually have chosen, we either go completely on-prem or we basically provide a managed cloud service and that's actually simpler for us instead of splitting- >> John: So it's customer choice. >> Exactly. >> That's your position. >> Exactly. >> Whoever you want to use Fiddler, go on-prem, no problem, or cloud. >> Correct, or cloud, yeah. >> You'll deploy and you'll work across whatever observability space you want to. >> That's right, that's right. >> Okay, yeah. So that's the big challenge, all right. What's the big observation from your standpoint? You've been on the hyperscaler side, your journey, Facebook, Pinterest, so back then you built everything, because no one else had software for you, but now everybody wants to be a hyperscaler, but there's a huge CapEx advantage. What should someone do? If you're a big enterprise, obviously I could be a big insurance, I could be financial services, oil and gas, whatever vertical, I want a supercloud, what do I do? >> I think like the biggest advantage enterprise today have is they have a plethora of tools. You know, when I used to work on machine learning way back in Microsoft on Bing Search, we had to build everything. You know, from like training platforms, deployment platforms, experimentation platforms. You know, how do we monitor those models? You know, everything has to be homegrown, right? A lot of open source also did not exist at the time. Today, the enterprise has this advantage, they're sitting on this gold mine of tools. You know, obviously there's probably a little bit of tool fatigue as well. You know, which tools to select? >> There's plenty of tools available. >> Exactly, right? And then there's like services available for you. So now you need to make like smarter choices to cobble together this, to create like a workflow for your engineers. And you can really get started quite fast, and actually get on par with some of these modern tech companies. And that is the advantage that a lot of enterprises see. >> If you were going to be the CTO or CEO of a big transformation, knowing what you know, 'cause you just brought up the killer point about why it's such a great time right now, you got platform as a service and the tooling essentially reset everything. So if you're going to throw everything out and start fresh, you're basically brewing the system architecture. It's a complete reset. That's doable. How fast do you think you could do that for say a large enterprise? >> See, I think if you set aside the organization processes and whatever kind of comes in the friction, from a technology perspective, it's pretty fast, right? You can devise a data architecture today with like tools like Kafka, Snowflake and Redshift, and you can actually devise a data architecture very clearly right from day one and actually implement it at scale. And then once you have accumulated enough data and you can extract more value from it, you can go and implement your MLOps workflow as well on top of it. And I think this is where tools like Fiddler can help as well. So I would start with looking at data, do we have centralization of data? Do we have like governance around data? Do we have analytics around data? And then kind of get into machine learning operations. >> Krishna, always great to have you on theCUBE. You're great masterclass guest. Obviously great success in your company. Been there, done that, and doing it again. I got to ask you, since you just brought that up about the whole reset, what is the superhero persona right now? Because it used to be the full stack developer, you know? And then it's like, then I call them, it didn't go over very well in theCUBE, the half stack developer, because nobody wants to be a half stack anything, a half sounds bad, worse than full. But cloud is essentially half a stack. I mean, you got infrastructure, you got tools. Now you're talking about a persona that's going to reset, look at tools, make selections, build an architecture, build an operating environment, distributed computing operating. Who is that person? What's that persona look like? >> I mean, I think the superhero persona today is ML engineering. I'm usually surprised how much is put on an ML engineer to do actually these days. You know, when I entered the industry as a software engineer, I had three or four things in my job to do, I write code, I test it, I deploy it, I'm done. Like today as an ML engineer, I need to worry about my data. How do I collect it? I need to clean the data, I need to train my models, I need to experiment with what it is, and to deploy them, I need to make sure that they're working once they're deployed. >> Now you got to do all the DevOps behind it. >> And all the DevOps behind it. And so I'm like working halftime as a data scientist, halftime as a software engineer, halftime as like a DevOps cloud. >> Cloud architect. >> It's like a heroic job. And I think this is why this is why obviously these jobs are like now really hard jobs and people want to be more and more machine learning >> And they get paid. >> engineering. >> Commensurate with the- >> And they're paid commensurately as well. And this is where I think an opportunity for tools like Fiddler exists as well because we can help those ML engineers do their jobs better. >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to see you. We're here at re:MARS. And great to see you again. And congratulations on being on the AWS startup showcase that we're in year two, episode four, coming up. We'll have to have you back on. Krishna, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Okay, This is theCUBE's coverage here at re:MARS. I'm John Furrier, bringing all the signal from all the noise here. Not a lot of noise at this event, it's very small, very intimate, a little bit different, but all on point with space, machine learning, robotics, the future of industrial. We'll back with more coverage after the short break. >> Man: Thank you John. (upbeat music)

>>The queue presents Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain, a Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm your host, Keith Townson, along with Paul Gillon senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. Paul, we're gonna talk to some amazing people this week. Coon, what the energy here, what, what, what, what would you say about >>It? I'd say it's reminiscent of, of early year, uh, early stage conferences I've seen with other technologies. There is a lot of startup activity. Here's a lot of money in the market, despite the sell off in the stock market lately. Uh, a lot of anticipation that there are, there could be big exits. There could be big things ahead for these companies. You don't see that when you go to the big established conferences, uh, you see just, uh, anticipation here that I don't think you see, uh, you you'll see maybe in a couple years, so it's fun to be here right now. I'm sure it'll be a very different experience in two or three years. >>So welcome to our guest cube alum. Batam Tobar the founder and CEO of Upbound. Welcome back. >>Thank you. Yeah, pleasure to be on, on the show again. >>So Paul, tell us the we're in this phase of migrations and, and moving to cloud native stacks. Are we another replatforming generation? I mean, we've done, the enterprise has done this, you know, time and time again, whether it's from Java to.net or do net to Java or from bare metal to VMs, but are we in another age of replatforming? >>You know, it's interesting. Every company has now become a tech company and every tech company needs to build a very model, you know, modern digital platform for them to actually run their business. And if they don't do that, then they'll probably be out of business. And, um, it is interesting to think about how companies are platforming and replatforming. Like, you know, as you said, just a, a few years back, you know, we were on people using cloud Foundry or using Heroku, you hear Heroku a lot, or, you know, now it's cloud native and Kubernetes and, and it, it begs the question, you know, is this the end? That to your point, is this, you know, do we have a, you know, what, what makes us sure that this is the, you know, the last platform or the future proof platform that, that people are building, >>There's never a last platform, right? There's always something around the core. The question is, is Kubernetes Linux, or is it windows? >>That, that's a good question. Um, it's more like more like Linux. I think, um, you know, the, you know, you've heard this before, but people talk about Kubernetes as a platform off platforms. Um, you can use it to build other platforms and if you know what you're doing, you can probably put, assemble a set of pieces around it and arrive at something that looks and can work for your business, but it requires a ton of talent. It requires a lot of people that actually can act, you know, know how to put this stick together to, to work for your business. It is, there's not a lot of guidance. I, we were, I think we were chatting earlier about the CSCF landscape and, and, um, how there are all these different projects and companies around it, but, but they don't come together in meaningful ways that you have, they act the enterprise itself has to figure out how to bring them together. Right. And that's the combination of what they do there organically or not is their platform. Right. And that changes. It can change over time. >>Do you think they really do. They really want to put these things together? I mean, there's, that's not what enterprise is like to do. They want to find someone who's gonna come in and, uh, turnkey do it all for them. >>Yeah. And, and if there was, this is the, this is the things like EV every week now you hear about another platform that says, this is the new Heroku. This is the new cloud Foundry, this replaces every, you know, some vendor has, and you can see them all around here. You know, companies that are basically selling platform solutions, um, that do put 'em together. And the problem with it is that you typically outgrow these, like you are, um, it might solve 80% of the use cases you care about, but the other 20% are not represented. And so you end up outgrowing the platform itself, right? And the, the choice has been mostly around, you know, do you buy something off the shelf that solves 80% of your use cases, or do you build something on your own? And then you have to spend all your resources actually going through and building all of it. And that's been the dilemma, you know, people who talk about this as a platform dilemma, but it's been, it's been the way for a long time. Like you, every, we go through this cycle every few years and, you know, people end up essentially oscillating between buying something off the, you know, that's off the shelf or building it, building it themselves. >>So what's the payoff. If I'm a CIO and I'm looking at the landscape, I don't need to understand, you know, I don't know to know what a pod is to know that looking at 200 plus projects in co and at, in cloud native, uh, foundation and the bevy of, of co-located projects and, and conferences before they, even the start of this, what's the payoff >>Increasing the pace of innovation. I mean, that literally is when we talk to customers, they all say roughly the same thing. They want something that works for their business. They want something that helps them take their, you know, line of business applications to production in a much quicker way, lets them innovate, lets them create higher engineers that can, don't have to understand everything about every system, but can actually specialize and focus on the, the parts that they sh they care about. Um, but it's all in the context of, you know, people want to be able to innovate at a very high pace, otherwise they get disrupted. >>So I was at the, you know, my favorite part of, of Coon in general is the hallway track and talking to people on the ground, doing cool things. I was talking to a engineer who was able to take their Java, stack their, their, uh, net stack and start to create APIs between and break 'em into microservices. Now teams are working across from one another realizing that, that, that promise of innovation, but that was the end point. They they're there. Yeah. As companies are thinking about replatforming where like, where do we start? I mean, looking at the, the CNCF, the, the map and it's 200 plus projects, where do I start? >>Do you typically today start with Kubernetes and, and um, a lot of companies have now deployed Kubernetes to production as a container orchestrator, whether they're going through a vendor or not, but now you are seeing all the things around it, whether it's C I C D or GI ops that they're looking at, you know, or the starting to build consoles around, you know, their, their platforms or looking at managing more than just containers. And that's a theme that, you know, we're seeing a lot now, people want, people want to actually bring this modern stack to manage, not just container workloads, but start looking at databases and cloud workloads and everything else that they're doing around it. Honestly, everybody's trying to do the same thing. They're trying to arrive at a single point of control, a single, you know, a platform that can do it all that they can centralize policy centralized controls to compliance governance, cost controls, and then expose a self-service experience to developers. Like they're all trying to build what we probably call an internal cloud platform. They don't know, they talk about it in different ways, but almost everyone is trying to build some internal platform that sits on top of, on premises. And on top of cloud, depending on their scenarios, >>You make an interesting point, which is that everyone here is to some extent trying to do the same thing. And there's fine points of granularity between now they're approaching it as you walk around this floor. Do you understand what all of these companies are doing? >>I'm not sure I understand all of them, but I, I do. I do recognize a lot of them. Yes. >>And in terms of your approach, you, you use the term control plane, uh, what is distinctive about your approach? >>Very good question. So, you know, we, we end up out take a, um, we we're trying to solve, uh, this problem as well. We're trying to help people build their own platforms. Um, but let me, let me, you know, there's a lot to it. So let me actually step back and talk about the architecture of this. But if you were to look at any cloud platform, let's take the largest one. AWS, if you peek behind the scenes at AWS, you know, um, it's basically a set of independent services, EC two S3 databases, et cetera, um, that are, you know, essentially working on different parts of, you know, like offer completely different pricing, different services, et cetera. They come together because they all integrate into a control plan. >>It's the thing that serves an API. It's the thing that gives it all a common field. It's where you do access control. It's where you do, um, billing, metering, cost control policy, et cetera. Right? And so our realization was if the enterprises are platforming and replatforming, why shouldn't they build their platform in the same way that the cloud vendors build theirs? And so we started this project almost four years ago, now three and a half years, um, called cross plain, which is a, essentially an open source control plane that can become the integration point for all services. And essentially gives you a universal control plane for cloud. >>So you mentioned the idea of the orchestrating or managing stuff other than containers, as I think about companies that built amazing platforms, enterprise companies, building amazing applications on AWS 10 years ago, and they're adopting the AWS control plane. And now I'm looking at Kubernetes is Kubernetes the way to multi-cloud to be able to control those discrete applic, uh, services in a AWS or Google cloud Azure or Oracle cloud is cetera. >>We kind of have the tease it, the parts. So there are really two parts to Kubernetes and everybody thinks of Kubernetes as a container orchestration platform. Right? And, um, you know, there is a sense that people say, if I was to run Kubernetes on everywhere and can build everything on top of containers, that I get some kind of portability across clouds, right. That I can put things in containers. And then they magically run, you know, in different environments. Um, in reality, what we've seen is not everything fits in containers. It's not gonna be the world is not gonna look like containers on the bottom. Everything else is on top. Instead, what we're gonna see is essentially a set of services that people are using across the different vendors. So if you look at like, you could be at AWS shop primarily, but I bet you're using confluent or elastic or data breaks or snowflake or Mongo or other services. >>I bet you're using things that are on premises, right? And so when you look at that and you say to build my platform as an enterprise, I have to consume services from multiple vendors. Even it's just one major cloud vendor, but I'm consuming services from others. How do I bring them together in meaningful ways so that I can, you know, build my platform on top of the collection of them and offer something that my developers can consume. And self-service on. That's not a, that's not just containers. What's interesting though, is if you look at Kubernetes and, you know, look inside it, Kubernetes built a control plane. That's actually quite useful and applicable outside of container scenarios. So this whole notion of CRDs and controllers, if you've heard that term, um, the ability, you know, like there are two parts to Kubernetes, there is the control plane, and then there's the container container, uh, workloads and the control plane is generic. >>It could be used literally across, you know, you can use it to manage things that are completely outside of container workloads. And that's what we did with cross plain. We took the control plane of Kubernetes and then built bindings providers that connected to AWS, to Google, to Azure, to digital ocean, to all these different environments. So you can bring the way of managing, you know, the style of managing that Kubernetes invented to more than just containers. You can now manage cloud services, using the same approach that you are now using with Kubernetes and using the entire ecosystem of tooling around it. >>Enterprise have been under pressure replatform for a long time. It was first go to Unix then to Linux and virtualize then to move to the cloud. Now, Kubernetes, do you think that this is the stack that enterprises can finally commit to? >>I think if you take the orientation of your deploying a control plane within your enterprise, that is extensible, that enables you to actually connect it to all the things that are under your domain, um, that that actually can be a Futureproof way of doing a platform. And, you know, if you look at the largest cloud platforms, AWS has been around for at least 15 years now, uh, and they really haven't changed the architecture of AWS significantly. It's still a control plane, a set of control planes that are managing services. >>It's a legacy >>They've added a lot of services. They've have a ton of diversity. They've added so many different things, but the architecture is still a hub and spoke that they've built, right? And if the enterprise can take the same orientation, put a control plane, let it manage all the things that are, you know, about today, arrive at a single point of control, have a single point where you can enforce policy compliance, cost controls, et cetera, mm-hmm <affirmative>, and then expose a self-service experience to your developers that actually can become future proof. >>So we've heard this promise before the cloud of clouds, basically. Yes, the, the, to be able to manage everything, what we find is the devils in the details. The being able to say, you know, a load balancer issuing a, a command to, to deploy a load balancer in AWS is different than it is in Azure, which is different than it is in GCP. How do, how do enterprises know that we can talk to a single control plane to do that? I mean, that just seems extremely difficult to manage. Oh >>Yeah. That, um, the approach is not, you're not trying to create a lowest common denominator between clouds. That's a really, really hard problem. And in fact, you get relegated to just using this, you know, really shallow features of each, if you're, if you're gonna do that, like your, your example of load balancers, load balances look completely different between between cloud vendors. Um, the approach that we kind of advocate for is that you shouldn't think of them as you shouldn't try to unify them in a way that makes them, you know, there's a, uh, there's a global abstraction that says, oh, there's a load balancer. And it somehow magically works across the different cloud vendors. I think that's a really, really hard thing to say, to do as you point out. However, if you bring them all under a same control plane, As different as they are, you're able to now apply policies. You're able to set cost controls. You're able to expose a self-service experience on top of them, even, even if they are very different. And that's, that's something that I think is, you know, been hard to do in the past. >>So BAAM, we'll love to dig deeper into this in future segments. And I'm gonna take a look at the, the, the product and project <laugh> and see where you folks land in this conversation from Valencia Spain, I'm Keith towns. And along with Paul Gillon, and you're watching the leader in high tech.

>> From around the globe its theCUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course this year the event is virtual. We're bringing all the people on theCUBE from where they are and really happy to bring back to the program, one of our CUBE alumni, Paul Cormier, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Of course the keynote and you and I spoke ahead of the show. Paul great to see you and thanks so much for joining us. >> My pleasure, always great to see you Stu. My pleasure. >> All right, so Paul lots have changed since last time we got together for summit. One things stayed the same though. So, you know, the big theme, I heard in your keynote, you talked about open hybrid cloud of course. We've been talking about cloud for years when you ran the product theme, you know, making Red Hat go everywhere is something that we've watched, you know, that move. Is anything different when you're talking to customers, when you're talking to your, the product themes, you think about the times were in, why is open hybrid cloud not a buzzword but hugely important in the times were facing? >> Because the big premise to open hybrid cloud is that customers, cloud has become part of people's infrastructure. I've seen very few if any true enterprise customers that are moving everything, every app to one cloud. And so I think what people really realized once they started implementing clouds, part of their infrastructure was that you going to always have applications that are running bare metal. Some are virtual machine maybe on top of VMware it might been a private cloud, and not many people saying you know what the public clouds are all so different from each other I might want to run one application for whatever reason in one in a different one or another I think they started to realize the actual operational cost to that, the security cost of that and even more mobility the development cost of that from the application perspective and now having five silos up there now how that's so costly so now our whole premise since the beginning of open hybrid cloud has been to give you that level playing field to have those things all the same no matter where the application wants whether experimental virtual machine private multiple public cloud and so in the long run as customers start to start to really go to cloud first application development and they can still manage that under one platform in a common way but at the same time managed develop secure it but at the same time they can manage develop and secure their legacy applications that are also on linux as well in the same way so I think in the long run it really brings it together and saves money and efficiency in those areas. >> Yeah it's I always loved I look over time we have certain words that we think we know what they mean and then they mature over time let's just say we'll start with the first piece of what you're talking about open we live through those of us that have been through that the really ascendancy of open-source is in the early days open was free and we joke it was free like puppies >> Yeah. but today open source of course is very prevalent we see it all over the place but give from an open hybrid cloud why open is important today and what customers should think, how do customers think about that today? >> There's probably two most misunderstood things with open so first thing is that open source is a development model, first of all. I always say it's a verb not a noun, I even say well think internally and externally. We're not an open source company, we're an enterprise software company with an open source development model. So you think about that, that's what that's really important. Why is the open source development model so important? It's important because everyone has the same opportunity in terms of the features of within the code everyone has the same opportunity to contribute. The best technology wins that's how it works in the upstream community is it's not a technology driven by one company that may have a one company agenda. It's really a development process that allows the best technology to win and I think that's one of the main things and one of the main reasons why you see all the innovation frankly in the last five years around infrastructure and development, associated pieces and tools around that of being in and around Linux because Linux was available, it was powerful, it was open when people wanted to develop for when people wanted to develop kubernetes for example, they had to make changes to the Linux kernel in order to do that it did work because they could and so those are the things that make it really important as a development model and I think those are the things that get confused a lot. I think the other things that get confuses a lot of people think that, "hey if I have this great technology and I just open-source is that it'll all just work, everyone will come, now that's not the case. The things that really, the projects that really succeed of an open-source perspective are the problems that are common and horizontal across a big group of people so they're trying to solve similar problems and that's one of the things that we found as you go further up the stack the length typically the less community is involved it's the horizontal layers where you need whether you're in banking or retail or telco or whatever they're all the same, those are the pieces where open-source really fits well. >> Alright so the second piece you talk about hybrid I think back to the early days Paul when cloud was first defined and we talked about public and private cloud we had discussions of hybrid cloud and multi clouds and the concern that I have is it was very much an infrastructure discussion and it was pieces and the vision that we always have is, were customers to actually get value is, the total solution needs to be more valuable than the sum of its parts. So it's really about hybrid applications about where my data lives, so do you agree with some of those things I'm saying how does Red Hat look at it and from your team i do get lots of the application and app dev discussion which I always find even more meaningful than arguing over ontologies of how you build your cloud. >> Everything you said is all about the application if you look at just where we started with linux just along what did Linux bring to the enterprise when we first started rally me you and I talked about this earlier that was the thing that really opened things up. The enterprise's started buying Linux they right they started buying Linux for Linux for $29.95 at the book stores but when I first came on board we talked to some of the banking customers in there, they said well we love this technology but every time you guys change a release on my applications breaker when I get new hardware it doesn't work etc. So it's all about the application Linux is better about that all the time from the beginning of time what hybrid it really means here, is that I can run that seamlessly across wherever that footprint is going to live and so I think that's also one of the things that gets confused a bit. When the cloud first started, the cloud vendors were telling people that every application was going to move to one cloud tomorrow right? We knew that was not practical, that's the other thing from open-source developers, we look at a practical perspective, we look back in 2007 I just looked at just to prepare for the note I just put up to the company. Back in 2007 at the summit I talked about any application anywhere anytime. That's really the essence of what hybrid is here, so what we found here is what every application is impractical for every application to move to one cloud and so cloud is powerful but it's become part of people's development and operations and security environment so now as we stitch that in may make that common for those three things for the operation security in development more application development world that's where the power is. So I see the day where application developers and application users won't know or care what platform the back-end day is coming from for whatever applications they're writing, they shouldn't care that should just happen seamlessly under the covers but having said that, that complicates thing and that's why management needs to be retooled with it as well. Sorry on that but I could talk about that for three days right? >> Yeah so as an industry we kind of argue about these and everybody feels that they understand the way the future should look. So Paul for a number of years it was, "we're going to build this stack "and let's have the exact same stack here and there." There were some of the big iron companies that did that a few years ago now you see some of your public cloud partners saying, "we can give you that same experience "that same hardware all the way "down to the chip level things are going to be the same." When I look at software companies, there's two that come to mind to live across dispersed environments. One is very much from a virtualization standpoint they design themselves to live on any hardware out there. Red Hat has a slightly different way of looking at things, so what's your take on kind of the stack and why is hybrid in that hybrid cloud model that you're building probably looks and sounds and feels different then I think almost anybody else out there? >> Well the cloud guys, they all have similar technologies underneath I mean most of it not all of its based on Linux but they're all different I mean remember the UNIX days I'm old enough to remember the UNIX day. That was the goal back then but like each hardware vendor did each cloud vendor is now taking that Linux or the Associated pieces with it and they have to make their changes to adapt to their environment and some of those changes don't allow for applications to be portable outside that environment, that's exactly like the OEM world of the past and so I hope some people hate it when I say this to make this a comparison but I really look at the cloud guys as a mainframe and certainly mainframe as and still does bring a ton of value to certain customer base and so if you're going to keep your application in that one place, a mainframe will all on you mainframe mentality will always stitch it to bet together better but that's not the reality of what customers are trying to do out there. So I really think you have to look at it that way it's not that much different in concept anyways to the OEM days whether from when they started running Linux and the thing that Red Hat's done that some of the others haven't for VMware for example, VMware they have no pieces that touch the application I mean they have some now they had photon, they had some of the other pieces that sort of tried to touch the application but at the end of the day we always concentrated in Linux and especially from a Red Hat perspective of keeping the environment the same, both from an application perspective and from a hardware perspective. Certainly when an application runs in the cloud, we don't have to worry about the hardware anymore but we still have to worry about the application and businesses are all about the application and so we always took that tack from both sides of that. I think that's one of VMware's weaknesses frankly is that applications don't run on hypervisors, they run on operating systems including when I say operating systems I mean containers because that is a Linux operating system. >> Yeah Paul a lot of good points you brought up there and it's interesting the mainframe analogy in the early days of cloud there were some that would throw stones and saying right you're rebuilding the mainframe and you're going to be locked in, this is going to be an environment so I'd love to get your thought you think about what's happening in application development, the rise of is you talked about containers and kubernetes serverless is out there there's that, "we want to enable the application developers but we don't want to get locked into some platform there. Talk about red-hat's role how your products are helping the ship, help customers make sure that they can take advantage of some of these new ways of building, maintaining and changing without being stuck on any specific platform or technology >> Well the first place, I believe I'm sure I will be corrected on this but we really are the only company that I can think of at this moment that is a hundred percent open source. Everything we do when our products go is open source based goes back upstream to the community for everyone to take advantage of so that's the first thing. I mean the second thing we do is one of the big fallacies is, open source has become so popular that people are confusing upstream projects with downstream products and so for us I'll use us as an example, I'll use Linux and I'll use kubernetes as an example, the Linux kernel we all built from the Linux kernel us, Susa, Ubuntu we all build from the Linux kernel but at the end of the day we all make choices when we bring that upstream work down to become a product. In our case we go upstream to rel, we go from fedora to sent us to rel. We all make choices, which file systems were going to package, what development environment we're going to to package, what packages werre gonna package and so when we get down to what's get deployed in the enterprise, those choices in what makes the difference of why by rel is slightly different than SUSE Linux which is slightly different than Canonical's upon - but they're all come from the same heritage, the same as the case with kubernetes is this sort of fallacy that kubernetes is the last time I checked it was 127 different kubernetes vendors out there. They're all just going to magically work together yes they all come from the same place but we have to touch the users face, we have to touch the kernel and so there how do you line that up in the life cycle of what the customers get is going to be different. We might be able to take different pieces from different from those 127, make it work at one point but the first time any of us makes a change, it's not coordinated with the other side, it's probably going to break. Anyone our life cycles go out 10 plus years and so engineering that altogether is something that makes it all work together as you upgrade whether it be hardware or your applications and so some people confuse that with not being old till 100 percent open. When we find a bug in rel, rel that's been out there for five years maybe we give that fix back to the upstream community that's open it's out there and so I think that's the part that this doesn't become so accepted now and so much part of the mainstream now that we very much confused projects with products and so that's one of the biggest confusion points out there. >> Yeah really good points there Paul. So when I think about some of the things we've heard over the years is in the original days it was, "Oh well public hug Paul? I'm not going to need rel anymore they've got Linux then kubernetes has come along and Red Hat's had a really strong position but you look at it and you say, "Okay well if I'm most customers, "if I'm doing Amazon, "if I'm doing Google, "if I'm doing Microsoft, "I'm probably going to end up using some of their native services that they've got built-in. Talk about how the role of Red Hat kind of continues to change and you live in this multi cloud environment and i think it's kind of that intersection that you were talking about, open and compatibility as opposed to. You're not saying that Red Hat's going to conquer the world and take down all the other options >> Well cloud providers bring a ton of value. I mean the users have to be smart on how and when they use that value. If you truly are going to be a hundred percent of your applications in one public cloud, then you probably will get the best solution from that one public cloud. Serverless is a great example if you're an Amazon and you spin up via services serverless that container that gets spun up is never going to run outside that Club, if that's okay with you that's okay with you. (Voice scrambles) The we've gone about this is as I said to give you that seamless environment all the way across. If you want to run just containers, (voice scrambles) on one particular cloud vendor and you want it under their kubernetes and it's never going to run in any other place, that's okay too but if you're going to have an environment with applications that are in multiple cloud vendors infrastructure you're even on your own, you're now going to have to spin up these different silos of that technology even though the technology as the same heritage. So that's a huge operational and development cost as you grow bigger and able to order to do that and so our set a strategy is very simple, it's give the developers operations and security people that common environment to work across and over time (voice scrambles) they shouldn't care where the services are coming from. It should just all work and that's why you seen things like automation being so important now. I mean our nation is our biggest growing business with ansible right now and part of the reason is as people spread out to a container based environment applications that may now spread across those different footprints maybe you want to have your front (voice scrambles) we have one of the rel customers in Europe that has the front facing customer side of their ticket, their ticketing system up in the public cloud and they've got the backend financial transaction database pieces that click credit cards behind their firewall, that's really one application spread across containers, if you have do you want to have to manage the front end of that with one kubernetes and the backend of that were the different kubernetes? Probably not and so that's really what we bring to the table as we've really grown in with this new technology. >> Alright, so final question I have for you Paul I'm actually going to get away a little bit from your background on the product piece you have to talk a little bit about just red hat going forward. So you talked about, we know for many years red hat has been much more than the Linux piece you talk about automation I've got some great interviews this week talking about some of the the latest in application development, lots of open source projects and so many open source projects (laughing) nobody can keep them all straight there. So as customers look at strategic partnerships, what is the role of red hat and with now being under IBM Jim white her steps over to become president there Arvind of course had a long relationship and it was the architect behind the Red Hat acquisition what's the same and what's different as we think about Red Hat 2020 under your leadership? >> I think it's a lot of the same I mean I think the the difference becomes in the world we're in right now is sort of how we can help our customers come out of back and back into re-entry right and so how that's going to to be different than the past (voice scrambles) we're working through that with many of our customers and we think we can be a big help here because we run their business and today where they run their business over the platforms on their business and that's not going to go away for them and in fact if anything that's going to get even more critical for them because they've got to get more automation to get just more efficiency out of it so in terms of what we do and as a company that's not going to change at all I mean we've been on this path that we're on for a long time. I stand up in front of our sales kickoffs every year is hearing and virtual as well and I say, "we'll to talk to you about the strategy." Guess what? It hasn't changed much from last year and that's a good thing because these technology rollouts are multi-year rollouts, so we're going to continue on that I mean the other thing too is, our customers are seeing moving many more of their work close to the Linux environment and so I think we can help them expand that as well and I think from an IBM perspective (voice scrambles) one of the big premises here from our perspective is to help us scale because they're in the process of helping their customers move to this next generation architectures and at the same time be able support the current architectures and that's what we do well and so they can just help us get to places that we just wouldn't have had the time and the resources maybe to get there get on our own so we can expand that footprint even more quickly with IBM. So that's the focus right now is to really help our customers move to the next phase of this in terms of re-entry >> Yeah as I've heard you and many other Red Hatters say Red Hat is still Red Hat and definitely it's something that we can see loud and clear at Red Hat summit 2020. Thank you so much Paul. >> Thank you Stu nice to see you again. >> All right lots of coverage from Red Hat summit 2020 be sure to check out the cube net for the whole back catalogue that we have of Paul their customers, there their partners and thank you for so watching the queue [Music]

>>live from Denver, Colorado. It's the Q covering com vault. Go 2019. Brought to you by combo. >>Hey, welcome back to the cubes. Coverage of combo go 19 from Colorado. Lisa Martin with stupid man. I got a couple of guys joining us with some really cool stuff to talk about. We've got robbed Colusa in the S V p and G m of metallic a combat venture. And we've got Michael, some principal architect from serious computer solutions. Guys, welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us. >>Yeah. So some big stuff came out yesterday. Metallic Rob, you are a convo, O g. I worked in the back, like, 10 years ago. I can't even believe it's been that long since I was there. But a lot of change in coma in the last nine months alone. Metallic came out yesterday. We're seeing a lot of momentum excitement around what come boats during strategically talk to us about metallic. What is it besides a cool name? And why is this so exciting? >>It's exciting for me for two reasons Specifically what we're doing with innovation. We've been an innovator and leader for two decades, but focusing on, things have changed. People have moved to cloud. People are looking at hybrid solutions. And with that comes SAS. So to me it's completing. I don't wanna say completing, but getting to that choice that that menu of options, the right ones not too confusing but the right ones. And so with metallic, we brought a sass portfolio to market around back in recovery aimed at some of the more common use cases. And the thing that was really exciting for me about this waas. We had this I p from the last two decades. Yet Sanjay empowered said, Look, I really want you innovate quickly. You've got all this I p put together a start up in the company marketing people working with engineering. And that's critical with the SAS offer because it's all about experience, >>right? Rob, I got all this I p We just had Sanjay on talking about all the patterns they have kind of going through my head. I'm like, Well, if you had all of these pieces we've been talking about Sascha now for you know, quite a few years. Why now? What? What has changed or what was the enabling piece other than Sanjay say and go that made metallic come to fruition now, rather that it hadn't before. >>Yeah, that's that's a good one. We've been working with partners and customers. Fact. I just talked to one, said Rob, I've wanted this for for a while. I think a lot of things came together, one putting together this start up approach to get the team's working cross functionally. That wasn't something we were accustomed to. So it wasn't just Sanjay saying Go. It was kind of doing things a little differently. I think The other thing looking at the market opportunity that we validate with our customers and an analyst. There's $1.6 billion target addressable market. Many customers are busy, Many customers are custom consuming lots of products, SAS or cloud and this just makes sense. So that's why we did it now. >>All right, well, so Michael Serious is a launch partner from metallic. My understanding. This is 100% built for the channel. Tell us what this means for your world, and your customers >>were really excited because this opens up the world of com vault toe a whole group of customers that we wouldn't focus on before with so you know, we're able to go in with our inside sales teams and with customers that maybe don't have full time employees for backup to spend, you know, multiple hours every day, Karen feeding for a larger, more advanced system. So this way you can off load a lot of that. Maybe not the ownership of back up, but at least the management of the infrastructure for you takes a lot of the overhead away they don't have to worry about. Okay, what about two sites? How did I manage that where, you know, that's a lot of complex stuff, So we're bringing in a company now that has 20 years experience. There's been a lot of new startups in the SAS area, but they don't have 20 years experience of knowing what the customers were looking for and back up and how they do it. And and to be honest, you learn a lot from your mistakes. And 20 years you made some mistakes. Everybody does, and they still have those mistakes to make, and these guys can all, you know, bring that to the customer, and then they don't have to worry about >>it. I'd liketo add to that a bit. So that's been the hardest thing is we have 20 years of innovation. We've got that. I'll call it a war chest, 812 patents. Who has that? And now it's like, Okay, Sascha, Sirs, want this unique experience? There's temptation to dip into the war chest. So we kind of moved everything out of the way and said, Let's take a fresh approach. Let's do a whole customer journey map. Let's worry about the experience. So the reason why we're able to innovate so quickly because we had this chest of patents andan enabled us to really focus on the customer and the partner experience to get it right. >>Can you talk a little bit about the combat adventures? When I saw that, that that's interesting. Is this kind of like what you're talking about? Like a startup within combo? Yes, Why was that important? >>It is important to us for two reasons. One, the brand brands about experience, right, and we needed to signal that internally, I mean, were traditionally executing really well in the enterprise space. Yes, we have mid market in some smaller customers, but we're known for handling big multi petting my customers, and we're known for maybe traditional approaches. So the brand allowed us to redefine and attach to that inexperience. The combo adventure part signaled the stability in the trust in a vendor that's been there for two decades with innovation. That's why we did that. >>Michael Being a sass offering the go to market has to be a little bit different. My understanding There's also like a 40 day, 45 day try A like, you know, full blown. You know, not just some, you know, test version of it. How will this change the way, or will it change the way you gotta market? >>It does change it quite drastically because the customer can get involved, they can start playing with it. They can ask for assistance during any time during that. But the nice thing is, after that 45 days, you don't lose what you did it it wasn't gonna download this. I'm gonna test it in my own little lab. You could be testing it with real world scenarios and then flip a switch. Your active you're going and what's nice is is is as that grows, right. I mean launch. They were recovering 90% of the workload people are doing and then immediately were growing it. But you know where they're gonna take this in the future, we'll be able to tie in to some of the old ways with the old combo and bring in the new >>Do you have no 3 65 practice of this ties into our >>we do and we actually have been. We were so excited for this because we were You know, we've been looking for a way to package not only Office 3 65 which which combo has done so well in the past, but but really touch those other customers that we weren't normally getting into with it. And everybody, especially the smaller companies, are using office 3 65 Nowadays, nobody has exchange on site. So being able to reach those and have that holistic message ease of use, the user interfaces you were saying is just it's it takes, what do we what other companies were doing? And it just makes it so much simpler >>When I saw the child at 45 days. Don't normally see that often. It's a 15 day trial and maybe you could mix it up to 30 days. And one of the things I heard during your keynote this morning was no posies talk to me about that as a differentiator. >>Yeah, maybe we'll both handle this. So there's two things one in this next six months will be learning a bit. We're gonna evolve just like a sass product does being fresh. So >>that may >>change. But what we found in our talk was many of the customers many of the other says products and they don't even have Ah, you're up in 15 minutes. That's right. It is. And some of them they have 30 day trials, but they let you extend it forever. And so what we found is many customers want to try and end a month back up, so tying it to 15 days isn't enough time to look. I think the unique differentiator, what we did because we re mapped all our business systems is of Michael has a customer that he's brought into this trial. He's gonna be informed where they are in the trial. He's going to see they did a backup. So just because it is 45 days we've got all this communication flowing back to the partner, so they can immediately say, Hey, you've already done a backup. You done to restore What else do you need? And we absolutely certainly hope that Michael or someone else's serious can close it quicker. I don't >>know too many times. People with P O sees they download the code, and they immediately get pulled into something else. So now we have a checks and balances we can communicate with combo. We know where they are. If some stagnating, they've had it for a couple days, they've moved on to another project. They take a week's vacation, they can come back to it. We can. We can know that we can engage with them and say, Hey, can we help out in some way? >>And is this sorry? Starting with office 3 65 is that kind of door opener to employ servers PM's for metallic for those minions. >>So right now we have three offers. I didn't cover that, so we've got three separate offers, but they're all the same thing, but you can consume VM file sequel. You can buy that separately if you want to buy Officer 65 separately, you can or metallic and point back in recovery. So we have all three of those in the suite, and we do anticipate some customers will come in and buy one. We've seen some trial activity already since launch where there's customers trying two or three. So there's a lot of incentive for them to go with multiple products in this. All right, >>So Rob Com Bold already has its core product releasing on a 90 day cadence. But bring us inside. From a development standpoint, Metallica's now is. It's as product. How's that need to change your methodology? What? What can customers expect from kind of a release cadence and gives a little bit as to what you might expect kind of over next six months? Sure. >>So I have my own engineering team. Like I said, it's a start up. So we're doing using a Dev Dev ops agile approach. We have two week sprints, and so if there is something critical that we think, see, they're gonna be a differentiator, maybe add value to the partner experience on the business system aside, or make it just that much easier for the customer that much more secure. We absolutely have worked out how to bring fresh features in that don't disrupt our customers like all modern SAS products do. So it'll be a little bit different experience with the SAS product than, say, a perpetual product, because the touch that we have into the into the product ourselves. >>You know, when you talked about the customer experience a few minutes ago, Rob in terms of even the design of comfort ventures, we can't go toe any event. Whatever technology we're talking about, customer experiences table states right and and as customers, if you're you know, 90 consumer, what not you are a consumer in your regular life. And so there's all these expectations that come from. I could go on Amazon and get anything that I wanted in 16 hours in 24 hours, and then we go into by software as business folks. The same expectation presents the user experience. I'm glad that you brought that up. That's like I said, it's table stakes for any organizations. Make or break >>right. I think for us that was like most of our focus, and I think to your point, since they can kind of go anywhere now. Then go to Amazon, try something. Then they jump in. Go to Azure. We thought it was really important to connect with the partners because of partners with ones that have usually solve what, 5 to 10 different I your business problems. And so we thought it was a smart thing to not only do that quick trial, but really go to market 100% with partners because they're the ones that helped the customer kind of make sense of it. All people get in there, they get frustrated trying 10 different things. So we kind of wanted to have that balance with this sort off. >>Well, And what we love out of this, which is so unique in the industry, is if we have that relationship with them, we know where they're consuming data and storage in the cloud. And with combo with metallic, we can bring our own storage. That customer already has. But there's a lot of customers that don't have that yet. Maybe they just have office 3 65 They're dabbling and cloud. Make it easy. I can use their storage right away. So having both those options makes our value. Add your perfect, >>Rob. Maybe you call it be called SAS. Plus, Yes, up on the keynote. So in my mind, one of the beauties of sass is I don't want to worry about anything. You know, I care about my data on everything below that in the stack. You know, it's like, you know, ordering delivery pizza. You're taking care of everything. They're so snapping a copy onto my own data center stuff leveraging storage from AWS and azure. I understand you want flexibility and choice, but, you know, how do I get concerned that, you know, while you've just added a whole level of complexity that my customers shouldn't have to worry about >>Oh, that's that's a great question. S o its ass out of the box. So all the data, all the control plane in the cloud, the option to be SAS plus, what we found in talking and hearing from hundreds of people was and >>we thought >>they'd say the same thing you did, and there were a variety of them, the dead. But if some said, Hey, I've got a physics issue. I've got 200 terabytes on Prem. I like the simplicity of this or my companies Cloud Vendor A or a cloud vendor B. I don't like having a copy in that clown. I've already got my largest. Some people are buying us for a department. They've got the enterprise on one cloud vendor. So So Back, back rolling back out of the box ass sask plus there for those unique requirements. And that's why we talk about flexible in on the customers own terms. We don't force them all of the cloud if there's compliance or other needs. GDP are whatever they can go to that use case for that workload. That makes sense. >>So yeah. So the news yesterday, just Michael from you. What? Some of the feedback within some of the customers have been doing the trial. What are some of the things that you're hearing? It's already taking in and gleaning insights from how they're using it. >>Well, to be honest, what they found with some other SAS offerings was they were kind of pigeonholed into exactly what they offered and nothing more, nothing less and having the option of having ah ah transport method on Prem having your own cloud. All of these options, they were extremely happy to have they were like, we're no longer being forced yet. It was presented in a way that they don't feel overwhelmed with the different options. A CZ you're saying by default you have the storage one button check I enter in my credentials. Now I'm using my own storage. They make it very simple, works you through the entire thing. The Wizards, the way they have really simplified the program. I was really surprised from come up because I think the command center, the U I within within traditional combo did very good on simplifying things. And they took, like, How can you make it easier? And with you I for metallic is way. It really talks to the SAS customers >>where some of the expected business outcomes I'm thinking like lower TCO, you know, eliminated or lower storage hardware costs big improvements to like FT time. What are some of the things that you're expecting? Customers t claim. >>To be honest, I think the most exciting thing that I've heard for my customers is that they're able to doom or so they weren't backing up everything that they needed to back up because they didn't have time. They didn't have the expertise, and so now they're gonna be able to protect things they've never been able to do in the past, just because of those limitations, >>and hopefully be able to actually see the data and extract insights from that. >>And I think from the value perspective, what was already mentioned. If they already have infrastructure that they want a leverage, you don't have to go buy something else. A lot of the other offers in the market kind of make you buy. Assuming you want to go there. That's one the other one is. If you look at the market, there's a lot of point products out there, so they start using one. Maybe it's not metallic. That happens, and then it has a scale issue. Then they're buying something else. So I think having a portfolio that matches a lot of use cases versus just today for launching a point product, I wouldn't be so excited. But being ableto handle the most common workloads across the market, I think that's that's goodness for them from a complex in R A Y t o type perspective, >>exciting stuff, guys. Well, congratulations on the launch and the expansion of the markets the next year you gotta bring some metallic customers that we can really dig into it with them and see what's really going on. >>Yes, we're excited about that. >>Rob. Michael, thank you for joining me on >>the show >>today. We appreciate it. First. You minimum. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube from coma. Go 19.

>> reply from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> We're back at Google Cloud next twenty nineteen. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage on Dave a lot with my co host to minimum John Farriers. Also here this day. Two of our coverage. Hash tag. Google Next nineteen. Mike Evans is here. He's the vice president of technical business development at Red Hat. Mike, good to see you. Thanks for coming back in the Cube. >> Right to be here. >> So, you know, we're talking hybrid cloud multi cloud. You guys have been on this open shift for half a decade. You know, there were a lot of deniers, and now it's a real tail one for you in the whole world is jumping on. That bandwagon is gonna make you feel good. >> Yeah. No, it's nice to see everybody echoing a similar message, which we believe is what the customers demand and interest is. So that's a great validation. >> So how does that tie into what's happening here? What's going on with the show? It's >> interesting. And let me take a step back for us because I've been working with Google on their cloud efforts for almost ten years now. And it started back when Google, when they were about to get in the cloud business, they had to decide where they're going to use caveat present as their hyper visor. And that was a time when we had just switched to made a big bet on K V M because of its alignment with the Lenox Colonel. But it was controversial and and we help them do that. And I look back on my email recently and that was two thousand nine. That was ten years ago, and that was that was early stages on DH then, since that time, you know, it's just, you know, cloud market is obviously boomed. I again I was sort of looking back ahead of this discussion and saying, you know, in two thousand six and two thousand seven is when we started working with Amazon with rail on their cloud and back when everyone thought there's no way of booksellers goingto make an impact in the world, etcetera. And as I just play sort of forward to today and looking at thirty thousand people here on DH you know what sort of evolved? Just fascinated by, you know, sort of that open sources now obviously fully mainstream. And there's no more doubters. And it's the engine for everything. >> Like maybe, you know, bring us inside. So you know KK Veum Thie underpinning we know well is, you know, core to the multi clouds tragedy Red hat. And there's a lot that you've built on top of it. Speak, speak a little bit of some of the engineering relationships going on joint customers that you have. Ah, and kind of the value of supposed to, you know, write Hatton. General is your agnostic toe where lives, but there's got to be special work that gets done in a lot of places. >> Ralph has a Google. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Through the years, >> we've really done a lot of work to make sure that relative foundation works really well on G C P. So that's been a that's been a really consistent effort and whether it's around optimization for performance security element so that that provides a nice base for anybody who wants to move any work loader application from on crime over there from another cloud. And that's been great. And then the other maid, You know, we've also worked with them. Obviously, the upstream community dynamics have been really productive between Red Hat and Google, and Google has been one of the most productive and positive contributors and participants and open source. And so we worked together on probably ten or fifteen different projects, and it's a constant interaction between our upstream developers where we share ideas. And do you agree with this kind of >> S O Obviously, Cooper Netease is a big one. You know, when you see the list, it's it's Google and Red Hat right there. Give us a couple of examples of some of the other ones. I >> mean again, it's K B M is also a foundation on one that people kind of forget about that these days. But it still is a very pervasive technology and continuing to gain ground. You know, there's all there's the native stuff. There's the studio stuff in the AML, which is a whole fascinating category in my mind as well. >> I like history of kind of a real student of industry history, and so I like that you talk to folks who have been there and try to get it right. But there was a sort of this gestation period from two thousand six to two thousand nine and cloud Yeah, well, like you said, it's a book seller. And then even in the down turn, a lot of CFO said, Hey, cap backstop ex boom! And then come out of the downturn. And it was shadow I t around that two thousand nine time frame. But it was like, you say, a hyper visor discussion, you know, we're going to put VM where in in In our cloud and homogeneity had a lot of a lot of traditional companies fumbling with their cloud strategies. And and And he had the big data craze. And obviously open source was a huge part of that. And then containers, which, of course, have been around since Lennox. Yeah, yeah, and I guess Doctor Boom started go crazy. And now it's like this curve is reshaping with a I and sort of a new era of data thoughts on sort of the accuracy of that little historical narrative and and why that big uptick with containers? >> Well, a couple of things there won the data, the whole data evolution and this is a fascinating one. For many, many years. I'm gonna be there right after nineteen years. So I've seen a lot of the elements of that history and one of the constant questions we would always get sometimes from investor. Why don't you guys buy a database company? You know, years ago and we would, you know, we didn't always look at it. Or why aren't you guys doing a dupe distribution When that became more spark, etcetera. And we always looked at it and said, You know, we're a platform company and if we were to pick anyone database, it would only cover some percentage and there's so many, and then it just kind of upsets the other. So we've we've decided we're going to focus, not on the data layer. We're going to focus on the infrastructure and the application layer and work down from it and support the things underneath. So it's consistent now with the AML explosion, which, you know, we're who was a pioneer of AML. They've got some of the best services and then we've been doing a lot of work within video in the last two years to make sure that all the GP use wherever they're run. Hybrid private cloud on multiple clouds that those air enabled and Raylan enabled in open shift. Because what we see happening and in video does also is right now all the applications being developed by free mlr are written by extremely technical people. When you write to tense airflow and things like that, you kind of got to be able to write a C compiler level, but so were working with them to bring open shift to become the sort of more mass mainstream tool to develop. A I aml enable app because the value of having rail underneath open shift and is every piece of hardware in the world is supported right for when that every cloud And then when we had that GPU enablement open shift and middleware and our storage, everything inherits it. So that's the That's the most valuable to me. That's the most valuable piece of ah, real estate that we own in the industry is actually Ralph and then everything build upon that and >> its interest. What you said about the database, Of course, we're a long discussion about that this morning. You're right, though. Mike, you either have to be, like, really good at one thing, like a data stacks or Cassandra or a mongo. And there's a zillion others that I'm not mentioning or you got to do everything you know, like the cloud guys were doing out there. You know, every one of them's an operational, you know, uh, analytics already of s no sequel. I mean, one of each, you know, and then you have to partner with them. So I would imagine you looked at that as well. I said, How're we going to do all that >> right? And there's only, you know, there's so many competitive dynamics coming at us and, you know, for we've always been in the mode where we've been the little guy battling against the big guys, whoever, maybe whether it was or, you know, son, IBM and HP. Unix is in the early days. Oracle was our friend for a while. Then they became. Then they became a nen ime, you know, are not enemy but a competitor on the Lennox side. And the Amazon was early friend, and then, though they did their own limits. So there's a competitive, so that's that's normal operating model for us to us to have this, you know, big competitive dynamic with a partnering >> dynamic. You gotta win it in the marketplace that the customers say. Come on, guys. >> Right. We'Ll figure it out >> together, Figured out we talked earlier about hybrid cloud. We talked about multi cloud and some people those of the same thing. But I think they actually you know, different. Yeah, hybrid. You think of, you know, on prim and public and and hopefully some kind of level of integration and common data. Plain and control plan and multi cloud is sort of evolved from multi vendor. How do you guys look at it? Is multi cloud a strategy? How do you look at hybrid? >> Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a simple It's simple in my mind, but I know the words. The terms get used by a lot of different people in different ways. You know, hybrid Cloud to me is just is just that straightforward. Being able to run something on premise have been able to run something in any in a public cloud and have it be somewhat consistent or share a bowl or movable and then multi cloud has been able to do that same thing with with multiple public clouds. And then there's a third variation on that is, you know, wanting to do an application that runs in both and shares information, which I think the world's you know, You saw that in the Google Antos announcement, where they're talking about their service running on the other two major public cloud. That's the first of any sizable company. I think that's going to be the norm because it's become more normal wherever the infrastructure is that a customer's using. If Google has a great service, they want to be able to tell the user toe, run it on their data there at there of choice. So, >> yeah, so, like you brought up Antos and at the core, it's it's g k. So it's the community's we've been talking about and, he said, worked with eight of us work for danger. But it's geeky on top of those public clouds. Maybe give us a little bit of, you know, compare contrast of that open shift. Does open ship lives in all of these environments, too, But they're not fully compatible. And how does that work? So are >> you and those which was announced yesterday. Two high level comments. I guess one is as we talked about the beginning. It's a validation of what our message has been. Its hybrid cloud is a value multi clouds of values. That's a productive element of that to help promote that vision And that concept also macro. We talked about all of it. It it puts us in a competitive environment more with Google than it was yesterday or two days ago. But again, that's that's our normal world way partnered with IBM and HP and competed against them on unit. We partner with that was partnered with Microsoft and compete with them, So that's normal. That said, you know, we believe are with open shift, having five plus years in market and over a thousand customers and very wide deployments and already been running in Google, Amazon and Microsoft Cloud already already there and solid and people doing really things with that. Plus being from a position of an independent software vendor, we think is a more valuable position for multi cloud than a single cloud vendor. So that's, you know, we welcome to the party in the sense, you know, going on prom, I say, Welcome to the jungle For all these public called companies going on from its, you know, it's It's a lot of complexity when you have to deal with, You know, American Express is Infrastructure, Bank of Hong Kong's infrastructure, Ford Motors infrastructure and it's a it's a >> right right here. You know Google before only had to run on Google servers in Google Data Center. Everything's very clean environment, one temperature on >> DH Enterprise customers have it a little different demands in terms of version ality and when the upgrade and and how long they let things like there's a lot of differences. >> But actually, there was one of the things Cory Quinn will. It was doing some analysis with us on there. And Google, for the most part, is if we decide to pull something, you've got kind of a one year window to do, you know? How does Red Hot look at that? >> I mean, and >> I explained, My >> guess is they'LL evolve over time as they get deeper in it. Or maybe they won't. Maybe they have a model where they think they will gain enough share and theirs. But I mean, we were built on on enterprise DNA on DH. We've evolved to cloud and hybrid multi cloud, DNA way love again like we love when people say I'm going to the cloud because when they say they're going to the cloud, it means they're doing new APs or they're modifying old apse. And we have a great shot of landing that business when they say we're doing something new >> Well, right, right. Even whether it's on Prem or in the public cloud, right? They're saying when they say we'LL go to the club, they talk about the cloud experience, right? And that's really what your strategy is to bring that cloud experience to wherever your data lives. Exactly. So talking about that multi cloud or a Romney cloud when we sort of look at the horses on the track and you say Okay, you got a V M. We're going after that. You've got you know, IBM and Red Hat going after that Now, Google sort of huge cloud provider, you know, doing that wherever you look. There's red hat now. Course I know you can't talk much about the IBM, you know, certainly integration, but IBM Executive once said to me still that we're like a recovering alcoholic. We learned our lesson from mainframe. We are open. We're committed to open, so we'LL see. But Red hat is everywhere, and your strategy presumably has to stay that sort of open new tia going last year >> I give to a couple examples of long ago. I mean, probably five. Six years ago when the college stuff was still more early. I had a to seo conference calls in one day, and one was with a big graphics, you know, Hollywood Graphics company, the CEO. After we explained all of our cloud stuff, you know, we had nine people on the call explaining all our cloud, and the guy said, Okay, because let me just tell you, right, that guy, something the biggest value bring to me is having relish my single point of sanity that I can move this stuff wherever I want. I just attach all my applications. I attached third party APS and everything, and then I could move it wherever we want. So realize that you're big, and I still think that's true. And then there was another large gaming company who was trying to decide to move forty thousand observers, from from their own cloud to a public cloud and how they were going to do it. And they had. They had to Do you know, the head of servers, a head of security, the head of databases, the head of network in the head of nine different functions there. And they're all in disagreement at the end. And the CEO said at the end of day, said, Mike, I've got like, a headache. I need some vodka and Tylenol now. So give me one simple piece of advice. How do I navigate this? I said, if you just write every app Terrell, Andrzej, boss. And this was before open shift. No matter >> where you want >> to run him, Raylan J. Boss will be there, and he said, Excellent advice. That's what we're doing. So there's something really beautiful about the simplicity of that that a lot of people overlooked, with all the hand waving of uber Netease and containers and fifty versions of Cooper Netease certified and you know, etcetera. It's it's ah, it's so I think there's something really beautiful about that. We see a lot of value in that single point of sanity and allowing people flexibility at you know, it's a pretty low cost to use. Relish your foundation >> over. Source. Hybrid Cloud Multi Cloud Omni Cloud All tail wins for Red Hat Mike will give you the final world where bumper sticker on Google Cloud next or any other final thoughts. >> To me, it's It's great to see thirty thousand people at this event. It's great to see Google getting more and more invested in the cloud and more and more invested in the enterprise about. I think they've had great success in a lot of non enterprise accounts, probably more so than the other clowns. And now they're coming this way. They've got great technology. We've our engineers love working with their engineers, and now we've got a more competitive dynamic. And like I said, welcome to the jungle. >> We got Red Hat Summit coming up stew. Writerly May is >> absolutely back in Beantown data. >> It's nice. Okay, I'll be in London there, >> right at Summit in Boston And May >> could deal. Mike, Thanks very much for coming. Thank you. It's great to see you. >> Good to see you. >> All right, everybody keep right there. Stew and I would back John Furry is also in the house watching the cube Google Cloud next twenty nineteen we'LL be right back

>> Hello everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversations here in Palo Alto, California John Furrier, host of the Cube. I'm here with Jagane Sundar CTO chief technology officer of WANdisco, you get great to see you again. Place we're coming on. >> Thank you for having me, John. >> So the conversation I want to talk to about the technology behind WANdisco and we've had many conversations. So for the folks watching good, our YouTube channel insurgency the evolution of conversations over, I think. Eight, eight, nine years now we've been chatting. What a level up. You guys are now with cloud big announcements around multi cloud live data in particular. So the technology is the gift that keeps giving for WANdisco you guys continuing to take territory now, a big way with cloud, big growth, A lot of changes, a lot of hires. What's going on? >> So, as you well know, WANdisco stands for wide area network distributed, computing on the value ofthe the wide data network aspect is really shining through now because nobody goes to the cloud saying, I'm going to put it in one data center. It's always multiple regions, multiple data centers in each region. Suddenly, problem of having your data consistent, being across multiple cloud windows are on prem to cloud becomes a real challenge. We stepped in. We had something that was a good solution for small users, small data. But we developed it into something that's fantastic for large data volumes on people are running into the problem. The biggest problem that IT providers have is that data scientists do not respect data that's not consistent. If you look at a replica of data and you're not sure whether it's exactly accurate or not the data scientists who spent all his time building algorithms to predict some model gonna look at it and go, that data's not quite right. I'm not going to look at it. So if you use a inconsistent tool or an inadequate tool to replicate your data, you have the problem that nobody is going to respect the replicas. Everybody's going to go back to the source of truth. We solved that problem elegantly and accurately >> State the problem specifically. Is it the integrity of the data? What is the specific problem statement that you guys solve with technology? >> Let me give you an exam you have notifications that come out of cloud object stores when an object this place into the store or deleted from the store that the best effort delivery. If there are logjams in this mechanism used to deliver some notifications, maybe drop the problem with using that notification mechanism to replicate your data is that over a period of time, so you have two three petabytes of data and you're replicating it over a month or month and a half, you'll find that maybe point one percent of your data is not quite accurate anymore. So the value ofthe the replicas essentially zero >> like a leaky pipe. Basically, >> indeed, if you have a leaking pipe, then it's just totally >> we need to have integrity and to end. All right, let's get back to some of the things I want to ask because I think it's a fascinating been following your story. For years, you had a point solution. Multiple wider. You had the replication active, active great for data centers. So disaster recovery not mission critical, but certainly critical. Correct, depending on how it the mission of us. It wasn't this asked Income's Cloud. You mentioned a wide area. Networks and you go back to the old days when I was breaking into the business. That's when they had, you know, dial up modems and front pagers. Not even cell phones. Just starting. Why do your network would have really complicated beast and all the best resource is worked on expensive bandwith, that he had remote offices and you had campus networking then. So why the area networking went through that phase one? Correct. Now we're living in. They win all the time. Cloud is when white area >> correct cloud is when. But there are subtle aspect that people miss all the time. If you go to store an object in Amazon, says three, for example, you pick a region. If it's a complete wide area distributed entity, why do you need to pick a region? The truth is, each cloud vendor hides a number of region specific or local area network specific aspects of their service. Dynamo DB runs and one data centre one one region, two or three availability zones in a region. If you want to replicate that data, you don't really have much help from the cloud vendor themselves. So you need to parse the truth from what has offered what you will find us. The van is still a very challenging problem for a lot of these data application problems. >> Talk about the wide area network challenges in the modern era we're living in, which is cloud computing mentioned some of the nuances around regions and availability zones. Basically, the cloud grew up as building blocks and the plumbing on the neither essentially a mai britt of of certain techniques and networking. Local area network V lands tunneling All these stuff Nets router. So it's obviously plumbing. Yes, what's different now that's important to take that to the next level. Because, you know, there are arguments that saying, Hey, GPR, I might want to have certain regions be smarter, right? So you're starting to see a level up that Amazon and others air going. Google, in particular, talks about this a lot as Ama's Microsoft. What's that next level of when, where the plumbing it's upgraded from basically the other things. >> So the problem really has to be stated in terms ofthe your data architecture. If you look at your data on, figure out that you need the set of data to be available for your business critical applications, then the problem turns into. I need replicas of this data in this region and the other reasons, perhaps in two different cloud render locations because you don't want to be tied down to their availability. One cloud vendor, then the problem tones into How do you hide the complexity of replicating and keeping this data consistent from the users of the data data scientists, the application authors and so on. Now, that's where we step in. We have a transparent replication solution that fits into the plumbing. It's often offered by the IT folks as part of their cloud offering or as part of the hybrid offering. The application. Developers don't really need to worry about those things. A specific example would be hive tables that are users building in one data center an IT Professional from that organization can buy our replication software. That table will be available in multiple data centers and multiple regions available for both Read and write. The user did not do anything or does not need to be a there. So if you have problems such as GDPR requires the data to be here. But this summarized data can be available across all of these regions. Then we can solve the problem elegantly for you without any act application rewiring or reauthoring. >> Talk about the technology that makes all this happen again. This has been a key part of your success that WANdisco love the always love the name wide area there was a big wide area that were fan did that in my early days configuring router tables. You know how it has been. You know, hardcore back then, Distributed systems is certainly large. Scale now is part of the clouds. So all the large scale guys like me when we grew up into computer science days had to think about systems, architecture at scale. We're actually living it now, Correct. So talk about the technology. What specifically do you guys have that that that's your technology and talk about the impact to the scale piece. I think that's a real key technology piece >> indeed. So the core of our algorithm is enhancements and superior implementation. Often algorithm called paxos. Now paxos itself is the only mathematically proven algorithm for keeping replicas in multiple machines or multiple regions. So multiple data centers the other alternatives. Such a raft and zookeeper protocol. These are all compromises for the sake of the ease of implementation. Now we don't feel the cost of implementation. We spent many years doing the research on it, so we have fantastic implementation. Of paxos is extended for use over wide data networks without any special hardware I mentioned without any special hardware piece, because Google Spanner, which is one of our primary competitors, has an implementation that that needs your own specific network and hardware. So the value of >> because they're tired, the clock, atomic clock, actually, to the infrastructure of their timings, that's all synchronized. So it's it's only within Google Cloud? >> Exactly. It cannot even be made available to Google's customers of Google Cloud. That was a feature that they added recently, but it's rolling out in very limited. >> They inherited that from their large scale correct Google. Yes, which is a big table spanner. These are awesome products. >> These are awesome products, but they're very specific >>Tailored for Google. >> Yes, they're great in the Google environment. They're not so great outside of Google. Now we have technology that makes you able to run this across a Google Cloud and Microsoft's Cloud and Amazons Cloud. The value of this is that you have truly cloud neutral solutions. You don't need to worry about when the lock in, you don't need to worry about availability problems in one of the cloud vendors and then you can scale your solution. You can go in with an approach such that when the virtual machines or the compute resource is in one cloud vendor are really inexpensive. Will use that when it's very expensive. Will move our workloads to other locations. You can think up architectures like that, with our solution underpinning your replication >> rights again. I'm gonna ask you the technical quite love these conversations get down and dirty on the hood. So Joel Horowitz was on your new CMO former Microsoft. Keep alumni Richard CEO Talk aboutthe. Same thing. Moving data around the key value probably that's tied right into your legacy of your I P and how that value is with integrity. Moving data from point A to point B. But the world's moving also to identify scenarios where I'm going to move compute rather than through the day, because people have recognized that moving data is hard you got late in C and this cost in band with so two schools of thought not mutually exclusive. When do you pick one? >> Okay, absolutely. They're not mutually exclusive because there are data availability needs that defined some replication scenarios on their computer needs that can be more flexible. If you had the ability to say, have data in Amazon's cloud on in Microsoft's Cloud, You mean Want to use some Amazon specific tools for specific computer scenarios at the same time, used Microsoft tools for other scenarios or perhaps use open source, too, like Hadoop in either one of those clouds? Those are all mechanisms that work perfectly well, but at the core you have to figure out your data architecture. If you can live with your data in one region or in one data center, clearly that's what you should do. But if you cannot have that data, be unavailable, you do have to replicate it. At that point, you should consider replicating to a different cloud window because availability is concerned with all these vendors. >> So two things I hear you say one availability is it's a driver. The other one is user preference Yes. Why not have people who know Microsoft tools and Microsoft software work on Microsoft framework of someone using something else in another cloud? The same data can live in both places. You guys make that happen? Is that what you're saying? Exactly. That's a big deal. >> Absolutely. And we guarantee the consistency that a guarantee that you will not get from any other bender. >> So this basically debunks the whole walk in, Yes, that you guys air solution to to essentially relieve this notion of lock and so me as a customer and say, Hey, I'm an Amazon right now. We're all in an Amazon. But, you know, I've got some temptation to goto Azure or Google. Why wouldn't I if I have the ability to make my data consistent, exact. Is that what you're saying? >> That is exactly what I'm saying. You have this ability to experiment with different cloud vendors. You also have the ability to mitigate some of the cost aspect. If you're going to pay for copies in two different geographic locations, you might as well do it on two different cloud vendor see have the richer subset of applications and better availability. >> So for people who say date is a lock inspect for cloud. It's kind of right if unless they use WANdisco because in a sense, and because you know what really moves with it. I mean, your data's Did you stay there? Yeah, that's kind of common sense. It's not so much technical locket, so there's no real technical lockets. More operational lock and correct with data, if you don't wantto. But if you're afraid of lock in, you go with the WANdisco. That's live data. Multi cloud is that >> that was live data multi cloud on. Does this new ability to actually have active data sets that are available in different cloud bender locations? >> Well, that's a killer app right there. How do you feel? You must You must feel pretty good. You know, you and I have talked many times. Yes, but this's like you been waiting for this moment. This is actually really wide here in a k a cloud. I was a big data problem. Which only getting bigger, exactly. Replication is now the transport between clouds for anti lock. And this is the Holy Grail for home when >> it is the Holy Grail for the industrial. We've been talking about it for years now, and we feel completely redeemed. Now we feel that the industry has gotten to the point back. They understand what we've talked about. I feel very excited, the custom attraction we're seeing on watching our customers light of when we describe the attributes we bring, It's >> exciting and just the risk management alone is a hedge. I mean, if I'm a if I'm someone in the cyber security challenges alone on data, you've got data sovereignty, compliance. Never mind the productivity piece of it, which is pretty amazing. So you guys are changing the data equation. >> Indeed, R R No most excited customers are CEOs because mitigating risk from things like cyber security. As you point out, you may have a breach in one cloud vendor. You can turn that off and use your replica in the other cloud vendor side instantly. Those are comfort. You do not get that other solutions. >> So world having a love fest here. I love the whole multi cloud data. No anti lock. And I think that's a killer feature. Think we'll sell that baby? I'm going to say, OK, that's all good, but I'm going to get you on this one. Security. So no one saw security yet. So if you saw that, then you pretty much got it all. So tell me the securities. Just >> so I'll start by saying, right. Our biggest customer base is the financial industry, banking in companies insurance company's health care. There is no industry in the world that's more security conscious than the banking. And does the government the comment? Perhaps I would. I mean, the banks are really security >> conscious, Their money's money, >> money is money. And and they have, ah, judicially responsibility both governments and to their to their customers. So we've catered to these customers for upwards off a decade. Now, every technical decision we make has security. Ask one of the focus items on DH >> years. A good un security. You >> feel's way insecurity when minute comes to date. Yes. >> Encryption. Is that what this is? It's >> encrypted on the wire. We support all on this data at rest encryption schemes. We support all the the the soup and the cloud vendor security mechanisms. We have a cross cloud product, so the security problems are multiplied and we take care of each of those specifically. So you can be confident that your data secure >> and wire speed security, no overhead involved, >> no overhead involved at all. It's not measurable. >> So well, congratulations on where you guys are a lot more work to do. You guys going to staff? So you hiring a lot of people talk about the talent you're hiring real quick because, you know large skin attracting large scale talent is also one indicator. Yeah, the successful opportunity. I see, the more I think the positioning is phenomenal. Congratulations absent about the hiring, >> as you know, as as David mentioned. A few minutes ago, we hired Joel from IBM for our marketing a department. He cmo wonderful. Higher. We've got Ronchi, who's from the University of Denver. I left the head of that computer science department to come work for us. Another amazing guy. Terrific background. We've got shocked me. Who's another column? UT Austin, phD. He's running engineering for us. We're so pleased to be able to hire talent at this level. As as you well know, it's the people who make these jobs interesting and products interesting. We are. So what are >> some of the things that those guys say when they when they get into really exposed. I mean, why would someone with somewhat what would take someone to quit their ten year professor job at a university, which is pretty much retirement to engage in a growing opportunity? What's the What do they say? >> So the single I mean that you'll find in all of this is very complex, unique technology that has bean refined on it's on the verge of exploding toe, probably something ten to one hundred times the size it is today. People see that when dish when we show them the value ofthe what we've got on the market, that we're taking this too. I'm just getting excited. >> Well, congratulations. You guys have certainly worked hard. Has been great to watch the entrepreneurial journey of getting into that growth stream and just the winds that you're back all that hard work into technologies. Phenomenal again. Multi cloud data not worrying about where your data is is going to give people some East and rest in the other rest of night. Well, because that's the number one of the number one was besides security absolutely Jagane Sundar CTO chief technology officer of WANdisco here inside the CUBE in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(lively peaceful music) >> Live, from New York, it's The Cube. Covering "The Cube New York City 2018." Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Well, everyone, welcome back to The Cube special conversation here in New York City. We're live for Cube NYC. This is our ninth year covering the big data ecosystem, now evolved into AI, machine learning, cloud. All things data in conjunction with Strata Conference, which is going on right around the corner. This is the Cube studio. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Mick Hollison, who is the CMO, Chief Marketing Officer, of Cloudera. Welcome to The Cube, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So Cloudera, obviously we love Cloudera. Cube started in Cloudera's office, (laughing) everyone in our community knows that. I keep, keep saying it all the time. But we're so proud to have the honor of working with Cloudera over the years. And, uh, the thing that's interesting though is that the new building in Palo Alto is right in front of the old building where the first Palo Alto office was. So, a lot of success. You have a billboard in the airport. Amr Awadallah is saying, hey, it's a milestone. You're in the airport. But your business is changing. You're reaching new audiences. You have, you're public. You guys are growing up fast. All the data is out there. Tom's doing a great job. But, the business side is changing. Data is everywhere, it's a big, hardcore enterprise conversation. Give us the update, what's new with Cloudera. >> Yeah. Thanks very much for having me again. It's, it's a delight. I've been with the company for about two years now, so I'm officially part of the problem now. (chuckling) It's been a, it's been a great journey thus far. And really the first order of business when I arrived at the company was, like, welcome aboard. We're going public. Time to dig into the S-1 and reimagine who Cloudera is going to be five, ten years out from now. And we spent a good deal of time, about three or four months, actually crafting what turned out to be just 38 total words and kind of a vision and mission statement. But the, the most central to those was what we were trying to build. And it was a modern platform for machine learning analytics in the cloud. And, each of those words, when you unpack them a little bit, are very, very important. And this week, at Strata, we're really happy on the modern platform side. We just released Cloudera Enterprise Six. It's the biggest release in the history of the company. There are now over 30 open-source projects embedded into this, something that Amr and Mike could have never imagined back in the day when it was just a couple of projects. So, a very very large and meaningful update to the platform. The next piece is machine learning, and Hilary Mason will be giving the kickoff tomorrow, and she's probably forgotten more about ML and AI than somebody like me will ever know. But she's going to give the audience an update on what we're doing in that space. But, the foundation of having that data management platform, is absolutely fundamental and necessary to do good machine learning. Without good data, without good data management, you can't do good ML or AI. Sounds sort of simple but very true. And then the last thing that we'll be announcing this week, is around the analytics space. So, on the analytic side, we announced Cloudera Data Warehouse and Altus Data Warehouse, which is a PaaS flavor of our new data warehouse offering. And last, but certainly not least, is just the "optimize for the cloud" bit. So, everything that we're doing is optimized not just around a single cloud but around multi-cloud, hybrid-cloud, and really trying to bridge that gap for enterprises and what they're doing today. So, it's a new Cloudera to say the very least, but it's all still based on that core foundation and platform that, you got to know it, with very early on. >> And you guys have operating history too, so it's not like it's a pivot for Cloudera. I know for a fact that you guys had very large-scale customers, both with three letter, letters in them, the government, as well as just commercial. So, that's cool. Question I want to ask you is, as the conversation changes from, how many clusters do I have, how am I storing the data, to what problems am I solving because of the enterprises. There's a lot of hard things that enterprises want. They want compliance, all these, you know things that have either legacy. You guys work on those technical products. But, at the end of the day, they want the outcomes, they want to solve some problems. And data is clearly an opportunity and a challenge for large enterprises. What problems are you guys going after, these large enterprises in this modern platform? What are the core problems that you guys knock down? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And we sort of categorize the way we think about addressing business problems into three broad categories. We use the terms grow, connect, and protect. So, in the "grow" sense, we help companies build or find new revenue streams. And, this is an amazing part of our business. You see it in everything from doing analytics on clickstreams and helping people understand what's happening with their web visitors and the like, all the way through to people standing up entirely new businesses based simply on their data. One large insurance provider that is a customer of ours, as an example, has taken on the challenge and asked us to engage with them on building really, effectively, insurance as a service. So, think of it as data-driven insurance rates that are gauged based on your driving behaviors in real time. So no longer simply just using demographics as the way that you determine, you know, all 18-year old young men are poor drivers. As it turns out, with actual data you can find out there's some excellent 18 year olds. >> Telematic, not demographics! >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly! >> That Tesla don't connect to the >> Exactly! And Parents will love this, love this as well, I think. So they can find out exactly how their kids are really behaving by the way. >> They're going to know I rolled through the stop signs in Palo Alto. (laughing) My rates just went up. >> Exactly, exactly. So, so helping people grow new businesses based on their data. The second piece is "Connect". This is not just simply connecting devices, but that's a big part of it, so the IOT world is a big engine for us there. One of our favorite customer stories is a company called Komatsu. It's a mining manufacturer. Think of it as the ones that make those, just massive mines that are, that are all over the world. They're particularly big in Australia. And, this is equipment that, when you leave it sit somewhere, because it doesn't work, it actually starts to sink into the earth. So, being able to do predictive maintenance on that level and type and expense of equipment is very valuable to a company like Komatsu. We're helping them do that. So that's the "Connect" piece. And last is "Protect". Since data is in fact the new oil, the most valuable resource on earth, you really need to be able to protect it. Whether that's from a cyber security threat or it's just meeting compliance and regulations that are put in place by governments. Certainly GDPR is got a lot of people thinking very differently about their data management strategies. So we're helping a number of companies in that space as well. So that's how we kind of categorize what we're doing. >> So Mick, I wonder if you could address how that's all affected the ecosystem. I mean, one of the misconceptions early on was that Hadoop, Big Data, is going to kill the enterprise data warehouse. NoSQL is going to knock out Oracle. And, Mike has always said, "No, we are incremental". And people are like, "Yeah, right". But that's really, what's happened here. >> Yes. >> EDW was a fundamental component of your big data strategies. As Amr used to say, you know, SQL is the killer app for, for big data. (chuckling) So all those data sources that have been integrated. So you kind of fast forward to today, you talked about IOT and The Edge. You guys have announced, you know, your own data warehouse and platform as a service. So you see this embracing in this hybrid world emerging. How has that affected the evolution of your ecosystem? >> Yeah, it's definitely evolved considerably. So, I think I'd give you a couple of specific areas. So, clearly we've been quite successful in large enterprises, so the big SI type of vendors want a, want a piece of that action these days. And they're, they're much more engaged than they were early days, when they weren't so sure all of this was real. >> I always say, they like to eat at the trough and then the trough is full, so they dive right in. (all laughing) They're definitely very engaged, and they built big data practices and distinctive analytics practices as well. Beyond that, sort of the developer community has also begun to shift. And it's shifted from simply people that could spell, you know, Hive or could spell Kafka and all of the various projects that are involved. And it is elevated, in particular into a data science community. So one of additional communities that we sort of brought on board with what we're doing, not just with the engine and SPARK, but also with tools for data scientists like Cloudera Data Science Workbench, has added that element to the community that really wasn't a part of it, historically. So that's been a nice add on. And then last, but certainly not least, are the cloud providers. And like everybody, they're, those are complicated relationships because on the one hand, they're incredibly valuable partners to it, certainly both Microsoft and Amazon are critical partners for Cloudera, at the same time, they've got competitive offerings. So, like most successful software companies there's a lot of coopetition to contend with that also wasn't there just a few years ago when we didn't have cloud offerings, and they didn't have, you know, data warehouse in the cloud offerings. But, those are things that have sort of impacted the ecosystem. >> So, I've got to ask you a marketing question, since you're the CMO. By the way, great message UL. I like the, the "grow, connect, protect." I think that's really easy to understand. >> Thank you. >> And the other one was modern. The phrase, say the phrase again. >> Yeah. It's the "Cloudera builds the modern platform for machine learning analytics optimized for the cloud." >> Very tight mission statement. Question on the name. Cloudera. >> Mmhmm. >> It's spelled, it's actually cloud with ERA in the letters, so "the cloud era." People use that term all the time. We're living in the cloud era. >> Yes. >> Cloud-native is the hottest market right now in the Linux foundation. The CNCF has over two hundred and forty members and growing. Cloud-native clearly has indicated that the new, modern developers here in the renaissance of software development, in general, enterprises want more developers. (laughs) Not that you want to be against developers, because, clearly, they're going to hire developers. >> Absolutely. >> And you're going to enable that. And then you've got the, obviously, cloud-native on-premise dynamic. Hybrid cloud and multi-cloud. So is there plans to think about that cloud era, is it a cloud positioning? You see cloud certainly important in what you guys do, because the cloud creates more compute, more capabilities to move data around. >> Sure. >> And (laughs) process it. And make it, make machine learning go faster, which gives more data, more AI capabilities, >> It's the flywheel you and I were discussing. >> It's the flywheel of, what's the innovation sandwich, Dave? You know? (laughs) >> A little bit of data, a little bit of machine itelligence, in the cloud. >> So, the innovation's in play. >> Yeah, Absolutely. >> Positioning around Cloud. How are you looking at that? >> Yeah. So, it's a fascinating story. You were with us in the earliest days, so you know that the original architecture of everything that we built was intended to be run in the public cloud. It turns out, in 2008, there were exactly zero customers that wanted all of their data in a public cloud environment. So the company actually pivoted and re-architected the original design of the offerings to work on-prim. And, no sooner did we do that, then it was time to re-architect it yet again. And we are right in the midst of doing that. So, we really have offerings that span the whole gamut. If you want to just pick up you whole current Cloudera environment in an infrastructure as a service model, we offer something called Altus Director that allows you to do that. Just pick up the entire environment, step it up onto AWUS, or Microsoft Azure, and off you go. If you want the convenience and the elasticity and the ease of use of a true platform as a service, just this past week we announced Altus Data Warehouse, which is a platform as a service kind of a model. For data warehousing, we have the data engineering module for Altus as well. Last, but not least, is everybody's not going to sign up for just one cloud vendor. So we're big believers in multi-cloud. And that's why we support the major cloud vendors that are out there. And, in addition to that, it's going to be a hybrid world for as far out as we can see it. People are going to have certain workloads that, either for economics or for security reasons, they're going to continue to want to run in-house. And they're going to have other workloads, certainly more transient workloads, and I think ML and data science will fall into this camp, that the public cloud's going to make a great deal of sense. And, allowing companies to bridge that gap while maintaining one security compliance and management model, something we call a Shared Data Experience, is really our core differentiator as a business. That's at the very core of what we do. >> Classic cloud workload experience that you're bringing, whether it's on-prim or whatever cloud. >> That's right. >> Cloud is an operating environment for you guys. You look at it just as >> The delivery mechanism. In effect. Awesome. All right, future for Cloudera. What can you share with us. I know you're a public company. Can't say any forward-looking statements. Got to do all those disclaimers. But for customers, what's the, what's the North Star for Cloudera? You mentioned going after a much more hardcore enterprise. >> Yes. >> That's clear. What's the North Star for you guys when you talk to customers? What's the big pitch? >> Yeah. I think there's a, there's a couple of really interesting things that we learned about our business over the course of the past six, nine months or so here. One, was that the greatest need for our offerings is in very, very large and complex enterprises. They have the most data, not surprisingly. And they have the most business gain to be had from leveraging that data. So we narrowed our focus. We have now identified approximately five thousand global customers, so think of it as kind of Fortune or Forbes 5000. That is our sole focus. So, we are entirely focused on that end of the market. Within that market, there are certain industries that we play particularly well in. We're incredibly well-positioned in financial services. Very well-positioned in healthcare and telecommunications. Any regulated industry, that really cares about how they govern and maintain their data, is really the great target audience for us. And so, that continues to be the focus for the business. And we're really excited about that narrowing of focus and what opportunities that's going to build for us. To not just land new customers, but more to expand our existing ones into a broader and broader set of use cases. >> And data is coming down faster. There's more data growth than ever seen before. It's never stopping.. It's only going to get worse. >> We love it. >> Bring it on. >> Any way you look at it, it's getting worse or better. Mick, thanks for spending the time. I know you're super busy with the event going on. Congratulations on the success, and the focus, and the positioning. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on The Cube. >> Absolutely. Thank you gentlemen. It was a pleasure. >> We are Cube NYC. This is our ninth year doing all action. Everything that's going on in the data world now is horizontally scaling across all aspects of the company, the society, as we know. It's super important, and this is what we're talking about here in New York. This is The Cube, and John Furrier. Dave Vellante. Be back with more after this short break. Stay with us for more coverage from New York City. (upbeat music)

(techy music) >> Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante from theCUBE's Palo Alto studios, and welcome to this CUBE conversation. You know, theCUBE and SiliconANGLE/Wikibon have been documenting the evolution of data and storage over the last decade or so, and what we've seen is the simplification of storage. Going from hardware consolidation with conversion infrastructure and we saw hyper conversion infrastructure and sort of software-defined come on the stage, but now we're, you know, in the heart of the cloud era, and what we're seeing emerging is true cloud-like models for data services. So, we've asked Brian Biles and Sazzala Reddy from Datrium to come back into our CUBE studios and talk about this a little bit. Brian and Sazzala are both co-founders of Datrium. Brian is the chief product officer and Sazzala's the CTO. Gents, let's get into it, thanks for coming back on, and let's talk about that a little bit. So, your model, as we've talked about in the past, is a pure SAS model. You're accessing data services in a SAS-like, cloud-like experience, and people might say, "Well, isn't everything SAS today?" But in the storage world that's not the norm. Typically you would either install a box, you know, and that box might have a very rich set of software-defined services on top of it, but it's not really a cloud experience. We're starting to see certain models pop up. You're seeing some companies actually delivering that. You guys started there, that's your DNA, so let's talk about what you're doing and how that's different in the marketplace, Brian. >> Sure, you know, the way to maybe start the conversation is imagine that you're already, you know, embracing a multi-cloud, you know, plan in your IT organization, so you know, you might have a little Amazon, you might have some SAS. You know, software company, stuff going on, and you have some on-prem experience, and you want to make that as simple as possible-- >> You just described everybody. >> We want to make it as unified... (laughs) Yeah, as unified as you can, as simple as you can. You know, at that point you want to think about, you know, what is the highest leverage, simple thing to do on-prem that connects to that, you know, world of services in the cloud. How can you align that as closely as possible, so what Datrium is doing is trying to do that. We have, you know, our on-prem software is very Amazon-like, it has two layers, it operates in a very similar way, supporting many types of frameworks from VMware to Docker to Red Hat. What we've done with how to store, manipulate, mobilize data and orchestrate, you know, transitions between clouds is, it ends up feeling fundamentally different from other types of ways that you can deal with on-prem infrastructure. It's just much simpler, much more coordinated, and it allows more flexibility over time. So, Sazzal can maybe tell you about it. >> Okay, so but Nutanix, Sazzala, would say, "Okay, well we're cloud, we're creating "a cloud-like experience for on-prem," how are you guys different? >> I guess the fundamental difference is how we think of the problem. We want to say our goal is to run, protect applications in any cloud, because we cannot be in the business of building the infrastructure because that's an investment. There already are three players. What most customers want is to commoditize the cloud. They could care less if they're running on Amazon or Azure. In fact, they care that they're tied to one cloud vendor, so our goal is to make that cloud, commoditize the cloud, make it all seamless so they can move from one place to the other, whatever agreements you have. Tomorrow Google may give you credits, say, "You know what, I'll give you one year free, come on over." What you want is a one-click and move everything over to their stuff over the weekend. That's kind of where we are, that we want to provide that level of simplicity, run, protect your workloads in any cloud you want. So, Nutanix is, I think it looks like from at least from what we read from their press releases, is their cloud. They say one OS, one cloud, we are seeing any cloud. So, that's, I think we want to give that flexibility for people to not be locked in by any cloud vendor, that you can take advantage of it. You know, tomorrow Amazon may not be doing that well or tomorrow Amazon may be enemy to your business, so you want to click it and move it away to some other cloud-- >> Separating the data services from the underlying infrastructure. >> Yeah, that's right, so I think you have to separate the data services and the data management to the best, abstract it so it's so high level that then you don't care where it runs. It runs on-prem, it runs on Amazon, so it looks the same experience for you, that's what we're aiming for, that level of simplicity, but remember, to do these things you must run and protect. You can't just do run only, you must also protect because it's part of your data, you know, your IT philosophy that you must protect your data, you must have copies of it to guard against ransomware and other things, but compliance reasons, right? You want to manage your data, so it has to be a holistic view of the entire end-to-end lifecycle of your data. It cannot just be, "Run my apps here and there." >> How about Pure, how would you differentiate from Pure? Let's say pure wants to, say, OEM its stack to a cloud service provider, how is it different? >> So, the common denominator in cloud services is the workload, the instance, the VM. >> Mm-hmm. >> All of the coordination between clouds is going to be on that granularity. That's what we focus on, so, you know, we have a catalog to show relationships between VMs so that, you know, when we DR you can restart in a certain order or you can validate, you know, workload granularities, have policies at a workload granularity. That's how clouds', you know, behavior is sort of itemized today. If you buy separate parts, like you know, a SAN array, you have to buy something else to do that work. So, it's fundamentally limiting. You know, if you just take VMware because it's so well understood, you know, VMs are going to be put into a LUN as, you know, a file system of VMs. So, to transfer a LUN to a cloud, and then what do you do with it? You know, are... There's no instance to restart. So, you know, it doesn't, it just doesn't operate on the same granularity. >> Speaking different languages, essentially. >> Yeah, so you're either, you know, an ingredient to somebody who's building a cloud who's assembling lots of things to get to the level where Datrium is offering it today, or you could just be simple and... >> Ultimately are you a software company, are you a hardware company, right? That's the thing and the difference is how we are a software company. You have to think about it as a software scaling. You can scale and make it all scale quite well. >> So, let's talk about some of those services-- >> Yeah. >> Which are all software, so let's list some, and we've talked in the earlier segments about data reduction and... >> Right, so I think the company has built that background that we're going to enable the services one day, so the first service we enabled, and this, the beginning on the year, was backup and data archiving. So, it's a SAS platform, it's a multi-cloud services, this first one. Second one we are building right now, we're going to ship it pretty soon, it's something called Cloud Shift. It's a DR orchestration, app mobility orchestration kind of framework. You can just click, move your workloads anywhere you want, any cloud you want. It's a big piece of our next offering. The third offering we're going to be doing is how do you manage all these different data sets you have across multiple places you have, so we're going to offer that next. So, we also have something called Providence built into the system, like every object knows where it came from, where did it, like all these apps, they kind of know we have all the data, we kind of know where they came from, so that's the next one, we call it a Global Ledger, how do you keep track of all this stuff. And the fourth one is we have all this data now, we have all this metadata, how do we provide governance for the end user, because ultimately they do care about compliance, they do make sure, they want to make sure that they're not moving data to the wrong place, that they have made the SLAs, so that's the ultimately kind of like where are we going to, kind of that's a two-year road map-- >> Mm-hmm. >> Idea. >> Okay, so I've got mobility, discovery, there's analytics in here-- >> Analytics, yeah. >> You've got governance and compliance, obviously backup is something we talked about. >> Yep. >> Now, these are discreet services that I can acquire separately-- >> Yeah. >> Is it all included-- >> Well, in a SAN, yeah, you'd have to buy them separately. >> Yeah, okay, right, right, you do. >> In a cloud approach like ours, they're just automatic and always on, so you don't have to think about them. Global dedupe is an example, if we always have that on you can't turn it off, that helps it locally for cloning so you don't have to move data from server to server-- >> Mm-hmm. >> In a developer shop, for example. It's just, you just boot, you know, start it up and it all has access and it's very fast, or across clouds we don't send all the data when somebody says to move it. We look for the deltas between site A and site B and only send those in a compressed, encrypted way. So, having that stuff just be fundamental and always on means cloud mobility gets a lot easier and a lot faster. >> And I, backup's another good example. I don't need to go buy backup software from a backup software-- >> Or hardware. >> Vendor, or... (chuckles) >> Yeah, that's right. >> Or hardware, right, it's there. >> It's just standard. >> Yeah. >> It's self-protecting, so you know, when you think about cloud mobility it changes the way you think about the problems. For example, if you want to, you know, enable a context for automated DR from prem to cloud, there are a lot of risks in many of the current systems. I don't want to go through the whole, you know, problem set because it's bad and we're solving it in our own way, but just take the conversion problem. If you have to move from point A to point B, you know, 90% of the time if you convert a VMware VM to an Amazon instance it'll kind of work. Well, for DR that's not sufficient, so we're taking a much more sort of thoughtful and open approach to how we deal with, you know, stack providers. So, you know, we'll be able to... In the VMware case, for example, move things straight onto their cloud from our S3 data so that you don't have to convert, so it just always works. >> And I'm interfacing with your SAS, it looks the same where it's on-prem, whether it's in the cloud-- >> Yep. >> It's the same experience. >> We're hoping you have to do less work and less interaction because it's all built in, it all just works. >> Okay, so that, the vision is sets of discreet services separated from the underlying infrastructure-- >> Infrastructure. >> Able to call those services as needed, run on any cloud, on-prem-- >> Run, protect, any cloud. >> Full set of services. >> Right. >> Right. >> Integrated-- >> Right, and as time goes on all our sort of operating software and analytic software and governance, and so on, will actually be, you know, literally SAS in a cloud. That makes it much easier to control a multi-cloud deployment, to control stuff in the cloud, but it also means you don't have to update software, we do it for you. It's just way simpler, so as time goes on, you know, on-prem infrastructure, in our belief, will become more and more the, you know, the thing operated by the cloud and the sort of puppet master will be outside. >> And performance, can you address performance? >> Yeah, so we ran, so basically our system scales quite well because of the way we built it, and we ran, you know, benchmark to take some of the vendors because we wanted to prove it that we're really good at this stuff, and we are the fastest probably on the planet. Our performance is really, really, very good, and it's not because everybody wants it, it's because you don't have to think about it anymore. You don't have, you don't, like it's one of those things again, don't think about it, just works for you, the performance is super high. >> Hm... >> We have customer validations, via the way, we have gotten our reviews from customers who are really, really five-star. We have, like, raving fans for our product. >> Excellent, well guys, thanks very much for helping us parse through that and appreciate you coming back on. >> Okay, thank you very much. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, thanks for watching, everybody, this special CUBE conversation from out Palo Alto studios. This is Dave Vellante, we'll see you next time. (techy music)

(intense orchestral music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBEConversation, I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. I'm here with Erica Brescia, who's the co-founder and Chief Operating Officer at Bitnami, it's the app store for the cloud, they do automated packaging, an application provider. Great to see you, CUBE alumni, great to have you in the studio, thanks for coming in. >> Great to be here, thanks for having me. >> So, so much going on, you've been to theCUBE multiple times, we see each other at conferences and, you made some time, thanks for comin' down, appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> So Bitnami's doing some great things, so give us the update, what's goin' on with the company? >> Sure. So we just launched our new offering called Stacksmith, which is our first enterprise offering that basically takes all the tooling that we've built to deliver the application catalog that we have onto all the major cloud vendors, and allows enterprise IT departments to package up their own applications, both for cloud and cloud-native platforms, as well as for whatever they're running in the enterprise today. So, it kind of meets them where they are, helps them automate the application packaging and maintenance in place today, and then sets them up to successfully move to the cloud and Kubernetes and containers over time. >> So it's kind of reverse of this journey to the cloud, you go to where the user, the customers are, help them put it together. >> And make the journey, really. So what we find is a lot of the more traditional orchestration and packaging tools just aren't well suited to cloud and containers in particular. And so enterprises are looking for new tools to help them solve current problems, which is: we need to support all these different platforms, we might have some things running internally in VMware, we're running some things on Amazon, maybe using cloud formation, and now they're trying to get to Kubernetes, and they're trying to figure out how they can do that without having a separate pipeline for everything, and that's the problem that Bitnami solves. >> Yeah, and that's been a bit, we've identified a product at Amazon, then, I want Azure, I want Google Cloud, I got to hire a different development team, different stacks. So there's kind of this problem with multi-cloud. How are you guys talkin' to customers about it? 'Cause this seems to be the hybrid cloud main problem today. It's like, okay I see the cloud, I understand I'm going to be doing a lot of stuff in the cloud, or cloud's going to be on-prem, and it's going to be in the cloud. How do I get ready for the cloud? That seems to be a number one question. >> Yeah, and I think what people are struggling with is, you know, there're a lot of companies out there, particularly in the cloud-native space, that just say: if you just rebuild everything, then your life will be so much better, right? But that's not really realistic for most companies. They need to be able to take what they have, and be able to package it in such a way that they get a lot of the benefits of the cloud and containers without completely re-architecting everything. Because, it might be practical for, say a new start up, or a company like Netflix or Spotify to do that, but lets face it, most companies are not that, most companies have too many demands on their IT and Ops teams already, hiring talent is hard even for the startups working at the forefront of Kubernetes, so, you really need tools that are approachable and solve current problems, but again, I think the key is, set you up for success in the future, and I think we help people kind of bridge the gap between what they're doing today and what they're doing in the future without trying to push them in one direction, which might not make sense for them. >> Yeah, in Netflix, and the Googles of the world, are potential future scenarios of what they might look like, but they got to take care of the current move from IT to cloud, get ready for it. >> Yeah, maybe, and you know, for a lot of these internal applications it doesn't make sense to completely re-architect and rewrite them, like the ROI isn't there, and there are companies out there that have thousands of Java or .NET applications that they just need to be able to move perhaps out of their data center, in many cases it's being shut down, and, onto cloud platforms and so we try to find that nice balance between helping you get the advantage of the automation of cloud without having to invest in re-architecting apps that just aren't worth re-architecting. >> Got to ask you Erica, we've had a couple conversations, I forget what you were founded, at Bitnami, you've had a great journey, a lot of things have changed. When did you guys found 2010, or 2011? >> So we started Bitnami in 2013. The company before Bitnami was Bitrock, and we went through YCombinator in 2013, and that's when we really started growing out the company. First around the app catalog that we deliver both via Bitnami.com as well as all the major cloud platforms, and that's allowed us to bootstrap the business up to this point. And then obviously we took all of the learnings and the technology from delivering 140 applications across 14 different platforms, native and cloud, and productize that in Stacksmith, so our enterprise users, you know, we have over a million deployments a month, but people have only been consuming the things that we build now they can use our tooling, that we've been building out over the years, to automate the packaging of their own applications. >> And it's, just to kind of put some color commentary around that time, it wasn't the most calm waters of the cloud world, massive growth, a lot of things have happened, so containers come to the scene with Docker and that becomes standardized, now you've got Kubernetes, you got service meshes right around the corner, kind of now it sets a perfect opportunity for you guys to bring customers to this app store concept, for you guys. >> Yeah, and we see this great, we call it kind of the great unbundling, right? Where apps used to be distributed with the operating system and they kind of were this one cohesive piece, and now, with Kubernetes and cloud APIs, the applications are very separate, and so there's kind of this new operating system coming together, which is the operating system of containers and Kubernetes and cloud, and it allows you to combine these different pieces in ways that you never could before. Before, you know, you would just go to your OS repo to pull in the app that you wanted. >> And you see the trends, I mean, Google has the SRE concept sight, reliability, engineer, the operators on the VMware side, dealing with VMs kind of all converging together. So I got to ask you, how does that impact your customers with your new Stacksmith offering, what's the impact to the customers? Is it ease of use, is it ease of deployment, what's the main value at? >> So, I think the most important thing is, as you said, there're all these new technologies coming out and there's also cloud formation on AWS, and there's ARM on Azure, and each cloud vendor is coming out with their own tooling and then, like you said, there's operators for Kubernetes. The advantage that you get with Bitnami is you don't have to understand the intricacies of how to package for all of those different platforms because we do that for you. We abstract away having to understand how to build a cloud formation template versus a helm chart helps that Kubernetes, you know, package manager essentially and we've been very involved in helping define and further that project. We're actually the top provider of the official helm charts. So we see a lot of promise there but, what's interesting about Bitnami is at the end of the day we're platform agnostic. And once you start using Bitnami and Stacksmith, you can very easily add support for other platforms. So we have a customer who started out on AWS, for example, they wanted to give a try to running some things on Azure, and they essentially just had to flip a switch, and then they get an ARM template, instead of-- >> What was your alternative to that? If they didn't do that, what would they have to do? >> They would have had to do it either manually, or find system specific tools for each platform, to do it. So, there's no other like singular tool chain that lets you build natively for all the different platforms and that's the key, we don't try to abstract away ARM or any of these other orchestration technologies by giving you some kind of layer on top of them. We just make it really easy to build for those technologies and also, to maintain those applications and templates over time, so this isn't point-in-time thing, we track all of the updates in everything that goes into that image or a set of images, and allow you to automatically rebuild and redeploy across any of those platforms you need to support. >> You guys have been very successful in the cloud, but also have scar tissue like everybody else that's been through the cloud wars. And now, as it starts to hit kind of an inflection point, how has cloud changed now, what are we seeing now in cloud versus, say 2014, 2015 timeframe? >> Oh boy. So, I think the most interesting thing is how quickly Azure in particular has evolved. If I had to pick one thing that has been incredibly impressive and important in the changing cloud landscape, it's, you know, you go back to 2014, it was pretty much all AWS all the time, right? And, Amazon isn't quite the Goliath it used to be anymore, I mean there's-- >> Well it's still pretty damn big. >> They're still huge. Yeah, absolutely, but I'll tell you what, the others are gaining a lot of ground, and they have really interesting and different advantages, right? Google will send all of their amazingly smart engineers in to help you architect applications, or move them over, I've heard a lot of workloads moving off of AWS onto Google because Google is giving them so much love and support and trying to attract those workloads over. But Azure's advantage is their ecosystem, right? They really understand partnering in a way that Amazons retail DNA just, it doesn't lend itself to that, and so, I think Microsoft's approach to building out a really great ecosystem around Azure, coupled with their huge field sales team, which Amazon has just been building, they've never had an enterprise sales team, is making things really interesting and creating, for us, a great dynamic in the market because we like to see a number of cloud vendors flourish. >> You're an arms dealer. >> Yeah exactly! (Erica laughs) >> Whatever you want, any cloud. >> I don't know if our CMO would want me to put it that way, but. (laughing) >> Dave Alante's favorite term, by the way. >> Sure. >> It's good to be an arms dealer, or be Switzerland, as they, to be more politically correct. >> Yeah, we go with Switzerland. >> Azure's interesting, I was just having conversation with Dave about this, because, you know, you've got, consumerization of IT, and digital transformation, have been the biggest buzz words in IT for the past decade. First it was consumerization of IT, now it's digital transformation. If you think about it Amazon and Google are really the consumer companies, Azure is an enterprise company with an ecosystem, so it's going to be very interesting to see if consumerization is the winning formula or is it digital transformation on the enterprise side? So you got to be, watching that pretty closely. Your thoughts? >> So, I would say on the consumerization of IT side, I mean that is absolutely happening, and, there, we could talk for hours probably on why that trend is here and why it's not going away, just, expectations in general have changed with the advent of iPhone and app stores and convenience across every aspect of our lives, so, I think even Microsoft gets that, and I don't think that the consumer DNA of those companies actually gives them a real edge in this case. What is interesting is, every company is starting to really focus on their app stores and their marketplace strategies, and trying to provide a frictionless buying experience. And there're a bunch of announcements coming, both on the AWS side, and the Azure side in particular, around things that they're doing to ease the enterprise buying process. >> Well we identified the three things, SAS business is table stakes, IOT is coming, connected devices, and then you've got the mobile. Those three things are on 20 year runs. Talking about Bitnami's update, you mentioned Stacksmith, you have some new stuff there, you guys are hiring, what's the ramp up, marketing, cash flow, top line revenues? Go ahead, share it. >> I'm not giving you all that. (both laughing) But, yeah it's a really exciting time for us, obviously bringing this enterprise product to market. We're gearing up to scale quite significantly, so, Bitnami's is kind of unusual in the Valley in that we're bootstrapped, and we're very heavily engineering driven. >> So no outside funding? >> A million dollars in total, which pretty much doesn't even count in Silicon Valley, and that was really just they had a number of individual folks involved in the company, when we went through YC. >> So no venturing? >> No, no institutional funding So, we are just getting ready to build out the whole go to market team around the Stacksmith product, which is very new in the market, just launched in the last couple months. >> So is it generally available? >> Oh yes! Generally available, customers, lots of great things to talk about, but, we don't have the full sales team in place. >> And what's the benefits of Stacksmith? What's the bottom line value proposition? >> It's really helping you to automate the packaging and maintenance of your applications, whether internal or external, you know, third-party commercial apps that you're using internally, and deploying them on any of the platforms that you need to support. >> App store for the cloud, I love that. So let's talk about what you're workin' on, one of the things I'm really impressed, first of all I'm really impressed with what you've done with Bitnami, I love it, love the bootstrap stories, we were bootstrapped as well in the run of SiliconANGLE. So it's great, in Silicon Valley, I think that's like the top tier player, if you can bootstrap it to economic visibility around scale, that's a success so congratulations. But you also have something exciting going on with venture investing. X factor, >> X factor, yep. >> This is super impressive. You raised a small little fund, X factor, investing in women entrepreneurs. Take a minute to explain what X factor is, do you have some news coming, another fund coming? >> Sure, yeah it's been very exciting, so, in the free free time that I really don't have, but this is such a good cause it's worth it. We put together a three million dollar fund, to invest a hundred thousand dollars in 30 different companies, with at least one female founder. And this actually was spun out of fly bridge, we have our token guys, we call 'em Chip Hazard, who's a career venture investor, who's doing a lot of interesting things. But, he basically led the charge with a woman named Anna Palmer, to put together a group of female founders, that's what really differentiates us, I think, from the rest of the market, who are operating their own companies, to invest in these very early stage female founded companies And, I think that gives us a really unique advantage in the market of venture, in that first we have an incredible pipeline and deal flow because, you know, we know these folks who are starting the companies. And we also have a unique perspective on the challenges of getting a new venture off the ground, and I think we can really be an ally to the entrepreneurs that we're funding, and helping them get that first bit of funding in the door, we typically help them with their series A rounds and beyond and they really see us as a peer and someone they can relate to and come to for advice, and so, I think it's a pretty unique value prop that we have as a VC fund. >> Operating experience brings a lot to the table, so, you want to get those first three steps goin', get that venture off the ground, trust. >> Yeah, and we have a very diverse range of experiences that we can bring to bare too, I mean some of us have deep infrastructure experience, some folks are on the consumer side, we've got a few East Coast people, a few West Coast people, a few people scattered in other areas. And we all have different areas of expertise, right? I'm pretty strong on the business development side, and I'm business model, SAS, enterprise software. Some of the other women are much more familiar with like distribution deals, or hardware deals, or other consumer businesses as well, so I think we have a really unique range of experiences and expertise that we can bring to bare in supporting our founders. >> And mentoring too, it's being there for, you know, don't give up! >> Yeah! And we've had founders go through things, and they'll call us at, one of our founders I was just on the phone with, and she was looking at changing her role within the company to take on more responsibility, and we had a great conversation around that, and that resulted in her becoming the COO, which was fantastic. Another founder was going through a difficult time where she and her co-founder were splitting up, and I was able to talk her through that. And we have a lot of those stories where, I think, you know, we have really been seen as an ally who can help founders get through those times, because we've been there, and we can empathize. And, it's an interesting dynamic because everybody knows that we're not going to invest in the next round, so there's never any posturing to make sure that they're still selling us on investing in the company. It's all about, once we're in, we're in, and we'll do anything we can do to help you scale successfully over time. >> And the key is get to that next round, or get a clear line of sight on visibility in the union economics or, scale. >> Exactly. >> Alright, so how much is going into the next funding? Can you talk about the amount, or? >> Yeah, so we're not raising yet, we're just about to start raising, we're going to be expanding the number of investment partners on the team, which is fantastic, and I'm really excited to bring some amazing new women on board, so, you know, for the women out there who are maybe interested in starting to learn a little more about venture and have raised funding and build their own companies, please send us an email: hello@xfactorventures the fund should be about 10 million dollars, is the current target. >> How is it structured? Are they structured as limited partners, general partners? How is it, so if someone comes on board, as you expand the partnership what does it look like? >> Sure, so, we all do invest our own money, but the fund has LPs just like any other fund, so there's a number of great folks who have backed up X factor. We do bring in some of our own folks along the way, you know, I had people that I know, who have invested in the fund and I'm sure that will be the case in the next one, but it's not like the fund is only funded by the investment partners, we have LPs like any other fund. >> But you guys are taking profits out of it, through the caring, right? So typical venture capital? >> It's typical venture capital, you know, it's a fairly small fund to start as we work through things, but we expect it to grow quite significantly over time. I'll tell you, without giving away too much, that we have quite grand ambitions for the long term. >> Alright, well let's keep in touch on the deal flow, congratulations on Bitnami, and, we'll see you at the cloud shows, Amazon, Microsoft Ignite, Google Next. >> Everywhere, yep, I'll be there. >> Erica, thanks for coming on and spending some time here on theCUBE. CUBEConversations here in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, you're watching CUBEConversations, thanks for watching. (intense orchestral music)