>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Male Voiceover: Live from New York, it's the Cube, covering big data New York City 2016. Brought to you by headline sponsors Sisco, IBM, Nvidia, and our ecosystem sponsors. Now, here are your hosts. Dave Vellante and Peter Burress. >> We're back in the Big Apple. This is the Cube, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage, we're here at Big Data NYC, Big Data week is part of strata plus dupe world. Shaun Connolly is here as the vice president of strategy at Horton Works, long time friend and Cube alum, great to see you again. >> Thanks for having me, were back at the same venue last year, always a pleasure. >> Yeah, it's good, we're growing, I guess the event's growing, we haven't been over there yet, but some of our guys have, but what's it like over there? >> You know, it feels the same, some of the different use cases, I think last year was streaming, we're hearing more machine learning and things like that as far as use cases, so similar vibe. >> Yeah, so things are evolving, right? How's Hortonworks evolving? >> We're continuing to report our quarterly earnings as the only publicly traded company in this space, things from a business perspective are doing well. Our connected data platforms strategy which we unveiled at the beginning of this year, which is written data in motion and data at rest and enabling these new gen transformational applications continues to play out. The data in motion piece is sort of decoupled and unrelated to a hadou platform, it's really about acquiring and handling the FedEx for data delivery type notions, data logistics, secure transmission. That's based on the Apache Ni-Fi tech that was originally built sort of at the NSA over the past eight years, so. Really a nice robust piece of technology that we've pushed out to the edge in our latest release so you can really skin these down into a secure site to site transmission. A lot of sophisticated capabilities there, so we're seeing a lot of uptake in that sort of architectural vision, the products are maturing, both on prem and in the cloud, things are pretty exciting. >> Well this cloud thing seems pretty real. (Shaun laughing) You can get a lot of traction, right? Everybody kind of knew it was coming, but what are you seeing? >> Yeah so it was, I guess I started the journey back in 2009, when I was at Springsource in Paul Moretz was CEO of Vmware, and that was pre sort of cloud at that time. We were talking about this notion of platform as a service, and things like that. And that resonated really well with folks back then, but their main ask was how do you solve the data problem, how do actually get the data to the apps that need it. Fast forward to 2016, I think it's been a lot of open source innovation, you know a lot of commercial innovation, the rise of cloud for providing a fast path to value, booting up these used cases, it's a fascinating transition to watch. Many of our customers are, people use the word hybrid. What that means to me is they'll have data center workloads, or multi data center workloads, but they also have cloud workloads, sometimes even multi cloud workloads, and that inherent nature of the beast is why I use sort of the term of connected data architecture, is y%ou need an architecture that inherently is built to span that fact. And that's just increasing, that's just the world we live in today. >> But the fact is because there speed of light issues, there's data fidelity issues. >> Shaun: Yup. >> There's other types of things, how are you starting to see those practical and very physical realities start to impact the whole concept of design as it pertains to data, as it pertains to analytics, as it pertains to the infrastructure associated with the two? >> Yup, so at Hoop Summit that we had last June, there were really some really good sessions that were there. Folks like Comcast, Ford, Schlumberger talked about this connected data architecture reality, right. If you look at like, I like to use the connected car ecosystem as a good example, cause there were insurance providers and others that were sort of speaking on behalf of that, where you have the cars and other data that's inherently born up there, and there's a slug of use cases that are around edge analytics, streaming analytics, time series analytics, and we're seeing that, and I think the cloud lends itself really well for those types of use cases. But we also see manufacturing line data for the cars, where you want to get a 360 degree view of operational issues, and dovetail that with manufacturing line elements, and that's inherently what we've seen is, what your classic sort of on prem data wake, in quotes has been used for so you can get that 360 degree operational intelligence type of analytics to come out of that, right? So that type of use case, whether you apply it to oil and gas and having the sensors on the oil rigs, in the Schlumberger example, that pattern is repeating itself across different industries. British Gas, in Europe talks about how they're fundamentally changing the nature of the relationship with their customer because of the smart meters, and their connectivity in the homes and they can deliver a better value there. So that's inherently connected data realm, there's cloud use cases, and in the data center use cases. So I see these use cases, you know, they'll be use case specific in applications that are sprinkled across that fabric, if you will. And that's really what we're seeing. >> At our panel last year here in this venue, we would talk about a lot of things, one was the market, the sort of ebbs and flows you just mentioned, you guys are the only public player, Talon's joining that crew. >> Shaun: Yeah. Excellent. >> You've seen some. >> Shaun: We need more. >> We need more, we've seen some MNA, Plat 4 taken out, I don't know if that was, I don't know the specifics of that deal. Might have been an acu hire, might not, I don't know. And Data Mere did a raise, so you're seeing these rip currents, in all directions. What are you seeing in the marketplace, lot of funding early on, lot of players, lot of innovation, and now it's like, okay, the music at some point's going to stop, but. >> Yeah. >> What's your take? >> So in our last call, and I think we repeated it on our prior earnings call, you know, our focus and then we put out there in our earnings, in our Q3 earnings will sort of reiterate where we stand is, we basically said Q4 is when we look to go adjust to even or break even. >> Right. >> And then 2017 we'll go from there. We reiterated that guidance, we had a little over 62 million in billings for the quarter, so the business is pretty robust and growing, it's a. We're only five years into this, I mean we're just five years old, so it's a very fast pace of billings growth, right? That's almost a 250 million run rate, right? For exiting that quarter. You know, annual run rate. So we see a lot of the use cases really continuing to move on. I think what I and what our customers ask us is, they're on a digital transformation journey, and they want the industry to start talking about those types of business value drivers, right? So I think we should expect to see a transition from the piece parts animals in the zoo and what's the right open source piece of technology, and more why should you care, right? As a business, how is this transforming what you do? How does this open up new lines of business? We started seeing that at Hadoop Summit when I think about two dozen customers were sharing, very rich stories, right? So that's where things are. But I think running a company is, you have to run it with a certain sense of rigor and that was one of the reasons why we chose to go public, right? >> So, we by the way, we totally agree that customers want to stop talking about digital business in platitudes and start actually identifying specifically what is it about it that's new and different, and find ways of doing it. >> Shaun: Sure. >> Coming back to the issue, however, of how you go about making some of those transformations relevant. There is clearly a knowledge gap about what digital business is, what it isn't, certainly. But there's also a fair amount of skills that have yet to be developed, that are required for a lot of the use cases that companies are pursuing. Not just in terms of implementing the technology appropriately, but actually constructing and conceptualizing the use cases. >> Shaun: Sure. >> So that suggests that there's two paths forward. There's a path forward where we can do a better job of diffusing knowledge through people, and there's a path for where we can do a better job of building software that's easier to use. >> Shaun: Mm hmm. >> And there's both. How do you see this playing out over the course of the next few years? >> Yep, and I think in any new area as technology's emerging, like one of the things I use is Apache Software Foundation. Literally every other week there's a new data related Apache project that lands, so it's. It can be really confusing, but it's exhilarating from the fact of I participate in that, and I try and figure out what ones we can harness in a consumable platform, whether it's one prem or a cloud or what have you. What use cases can it light up? So I think you have both of those vectors, and it really depends on, I like to use the classic software adoption curve, you have a lot of the left side of the chasm folks, where a lot of this new stuff is going to be sharper edges, and they're always going to be trailblazers, right? But we are also seeing a lot of some of these advanced analytics. Some of these new solutions are automating the pipeline, so you can actually let the infrastructure and these engines do more of the thinking for you, so you get your model's output. Even to the point where you run multi model simulation in parallel, and out pops the best fit. That's where things will head, right? I think it's just a matter of the technology maturing, making sure we address things like security, metadata management, governance, and those illities that the enterprise expects, and then really forcing ourselves to simplify and automate as much as possible, right. And that was one of the reasons on that last one why in October 2011 we basically chose Teradata and Microsoft as key partners. Teradata because in 2011, clearly, right? >> Peter: Teradata. >> They're Teradata, right? Microsoft because it simplifies technologies and brings them to billions of users, right? And so we need to do both, you need to harden it, right? For the most rigorous large enterprises, but you need to simplify it for the meat of the market adopters, right? The early majority and late majority. You have to do both. >> Shaun, you're sitting across from a CEO, and you have to say these are the three things you need to do to enact this digital transformation. >> Shaun: Yup. >> What are the three things you're telling him? >> So, I think they need as a business to identify how do they want to leverage data as capital, and what pockets of value do they want to go chase, number one. Number two, how is their business being impacted by the fact that you have the rise of IOT and inherently increasing connected society and infrastructure. How is that impacting them? And number three is, how do they evolve what they're used to doing, right? You have to align it, exactly. >> Because that's really many respects of, I like to say there's a difference between invention and innovation. Invention is the engineering act, innovation's a social act, it's adopting those new practices >> Shaun: Exactly. >> That actually allow you to enact the invention and generate revenue. >> Exactly. Now in our space, I think we have a very compelling renovate value prop which is a cost savings where you can drive cost out, but the innovate use cases are the ones. Like if all you're going to do is renovate, then you will fail, you will stall, right? Because it's not a balance of cost savings. It's about how do you actually transform your business. And in the case of like the British Gas example, I used that as how they engaged that end consumer is fundamentally changing. So that's the question I put back in those conversations is how do you want to evolve your business and how do you leverage data as capital? Because the beauty of data as capital is you can actually generate multiple lines of interest off of a single data set, cause you can derive different insights off of that, so it's not like a dollar, right? And single compound, it's multiple compound annual interest rate on that. But they have to chase the right use cases. >> Although, we've also learned from great design that if you do the right thing better, you get rid of a lot waste and so coming back to your point, doing the right thing better often leads to cost savings. >> Yes. Exactly. One inherently can drive the other, but if you're just driving it then >> Peter: Just doing cost. >> You're not going to transform your buisiness. >> Peter: You're just going to continue to do the same or wrong things worse. >> Shaun: Exactly. >> Or wrong things cheaper. >> And that's difficult for enterprises. Because there's a certain way to do data management inherently inside in a highly structured manner, but I do think the rise of like IOT, I don't see as a market, I see it as infinite slices of prosciutto, right? (laughter) It's a very thinly sliced set of market opportunities, right? But it's forcing people to think about different use cases and how that might impact their business. >> We see those set of capabilities. >> Yup. >> Which leads to the prosciutto. >> Exactly. >> So you, and come up with a really nice sandwich. (laughter) >> It's my Italian. >> Let's keep going. >> I'm loving it. >> I'm getting a little hungry. >> You have always made a big deal out of your partnerships not being barney deals but being deep integration relationships. So you mentioned two here, Teradata and Microsoft. As the cloud becomes more prevalent, as things evolve and machine learning becomes the hot buzzword, et cetera. How have you evolved those relationships specifically in terms of the integration work that you've done? Have you kept up that engineering ethos, or? >> And that was the thing. With Microsoft, we clearly spent a lot of sweat equity on the Azure HDInsight service, but if you look at that ecosystem, they have Azure machine learning, right? They have a whole raft of services, right, that you can apply to the data when it's in the cloud, right? So how that piece integrates with the broader ecosystem of services is a lot of engineering work as well. I've always said, there's work to be done in our green box, but the other half of the work is how it plumbs into the rest. And so if you look at the AWS ecosystem, how do you optimize for S3 as a storage tier, and ephemeral workloads where HDFS is maybe a caching mechanism but it's not your primary storage, right? It brings up really interesting integration modes and how you actually bring your value out into really interesting use cases, right? So I think it's opened up a lot of areas where we can drive a lot more integration, drive the open source tech in a way that's relevant for those use cases. >> Alright, we got to go but, summit in Tokyo, is it next month? >> Yes, end of October. >> End of October. >> It's our first time, so primarily summits have been US and Europe. We had Melbourne end of August, and we have Tokyo end of October. I'll be, they're bringing the right hander out of retirement, so I'll be onstage in Tokyo. (laughing) I've usually been behind the scenes. >> Throwing the slurve? (laughter) >> Yeah, exactly. So I'm looking forward to it, it'll be exciting. >> Alright, good, and then 17, you're going to start again in the spring. >> Shaun: Yup. >> You're in Munich. >> Shaun: Yup. Munich. >> You were in Dublin last year, you're moving to Munich this year. >> Shaun: Exactly. >> Hopefully the Cube will be back, in Munich, alright? >> We love you guys, you guys do a good job. >> Let's make it happen, do good stuff in Europe, so thanks again for coming out. >> Shaun: Thanks for having me. >> Always a pleasure. Alright, keep it right there, we'll be back right after this short break. This is the Cube, we're live from New York City. ( upbeat electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Work, sorry. >> Okay, we're live here at VMworld 2012. This is SiliconANGLE.tv's exclusive continuous coverage of VMworld. Day two, we're here, excited to have the new CEO of VMware, a long time, seven time Cube alumni when he was a lowly president of the EMC, Pat Gelsinger, with my cohost Dave. And welcome back to theCUBE. >> Hey, thank you very much guys, great to be here. >> Pleasure to see you again. >> First time as CEO, so first of all, how do you feel, tell us what it's like. Obviously, just for the folks who haven't watched the EMC World interview, I asked you a pointed question. I said Pat, if you were running VMware, what would you work on? So we'll get to that later, but. >> Okay. >> It turned out to be true. >> Turned out to, yeah once again, theCUBE got it nailed, like always, right? >> Absolutely. >> So just give us some personal color around the transition. So you know Paul, obviously you guys had great rapport, obviously, on stage yesterday. You got a standing ovation, he's being called the King on Twitter, he's got a huge respect. You guys work together, just take us through emotionally, the Pat Gelsinger, inside Pat, what went down there? How did it feel? >> And the way he, said handing over the custodianship of the community, to Pat Gelsinger, that was really, I think a great way to put it. >> Well you know, first thing, Paul and I are just great friends, you know? For 30 years, we've worked together. It's like you know, a great pick and roll team in basketball right, you know he knows when to pick, I know when to roll. You know, we just have really learned how to work together over the years. And just great respect for each other's talents. And Paul embraced me, and really endorsed me to the VMworld, and the community, in that sense, is powerful, right? But it also was intimidating. A bit of a responsibility as well. And you know, I had dinner with Tom Jorgens last night. Right, it's sort of like oh, two weeks ago, we were trying to kill each other. Now, my new best friend, right? So it is this very rapidly shifting role. As well as, we laid out a pretty bold vision this week. >> And you were at Intel too, you understand the whole partnership dynamic, we talk about this in theCUBE, the ecosystem, obviously VMware, the beginning of this massive opportunity of extending beyond the VMware look. I mean you announced, as an example, people who not VMworld, that's always been about VMware, they've been dominant in the enterprise. But yesterday you announced changes to the pricing. I mean you guys are thinking bigger now. Is that part of the plan, to think bigger, beyond VMware, and extend to other vendors? Obviously great love fest on the CEO panel yesterday, and also the demos up on stage. So talk about that mindset, and what you plan to do to take it beyond just VMware. >> Well it is very much a community. And when you think about what we're doing with software defined data center, right we're always touching everything, as Paul said. It's virtualizing the data center. And to do that, you know it's the networking guys, the security guys, the storage guys, the management guys, the new application vendors, right? It really is this ever broadening community. And as part of that is both a great opportunity, as well as a great responsibility too, all of those community players. And how can we innovate together, collectively, to bring about this next layer of fundamental innovation, agility, and speed, for the software defined data center of the future. >> So we want to get to that in a second. I want to ask you about about Paul Maritz again, just to kind of come back to the Paul thing. He has yet to be on theCUBE, so we're trying to get him on theCUBE and say it's a safe place. >> Does he not like you? What'd you do, you offended him? >> We haven't-- >> I don't know, he's... >> People want to know about him, he made some really, kind of cool, tongue in cheek comments yesterday about Facebook's valuation and VMware, everyone had a good chuckle out of it. But talk about Paul Maritz as a person. He's rarely doing public appearances, he's a total tech geek, he's a cool guy. So share with the folks out there, what's he like? >> Well you know, I think of Paul as sort of the Michael Jordan of strategy and technology, right? You know, he is just, you know, I don't think of myself as a bad strategist, this is like, the best strategist operating in the industry today around technology, and it's somebody who's deep in the technology, but also strategically very, very broad. And in that sense, his new role is really to allow him to really go focus on what he truly loves, his longterm strategy, understanding the technology trends and really going deep in that area. >> And the technology right, and he's also a huge technologist. >> Oh yeah right, you know he's sort of like, tops and bottoms, right, he's higher in the stack, I'm lower in the stack and boy, right between us, we sort of cover from sand to solutions. >> Well you said it's somewhat intimidating. And you're a lifelong hardware guy, now taking over a software company, how do you think about that, and how do you think you might change the way you approach your leadership? >> Well I think in some ways, I've always thought of myself as an infrastructure guy, right? And you know, most of silicon is done in software these days, so in that sense, I don't see it as that radical in that regard. But I have had the opportunity to really build the hardware infrastructure that every aspect of cloud is built on, and now to be able to put tops on bottoms, right, to be able to layer that software on top of it, to me is just a great opportunity, to take on this next piece of finishing that overall portfolio. >> How does he fit with Joe Tucci? Because I just love the dynamic was on there yesterday. You know, and we've had a chance to, Joe's been on theCUBE, and we've talked to him in person. Great guy, he's just such a great executive CEO. He's been around the block. Paul's like his sidekick now, and those two guys are going to cause some trouble. What's your prediction on the Joe Tucci, Paul Maritz dynamic, because you've got a strategist that no one's ever seen before in the tech business in Maritz, now with a canvas, painting a new canvas. He's done VMware, he's got that thing kicked off, laid out the roadmap in 2010, it's all filling in nicely. It's all going great, you're going to take it from there and ride that ship, and sail into good waters. But now he's now painting a new canvas. What is Joe and Paul talking about? What's that next canvas? >> Well, if you sort of think about Joe right, he's really become, at this point of his career, I'd say the elder statesman of the industry. Where everybody likes Joe, he makes everybody comfortable with him. And you know, there's just this comfort that Joe really brings to any situation. So here you have the big brains of Paul being combined with the experience, the relationships of Joe, and to me, I expect it to be a really powerful combination. >> You know I was commenting to Dave on a lot of things yesterday, and tying in some kind of trendy stuff, like Apple's market share value, and looking at that percentage of market share. And then also when you guys were up on the panel, one of the observations was, you've got the elder statesman in Tucci, and the senior experience of Joe with Pat, you and Paul, and a lot of the companies like Facebook, are run by people under the age of 35. So there's a generation of kids out there running big companies that have market caps of a billion dollars, so that's now coming on to the scene. How do you see that all playing out? Is there a trend towards business value, some kind of digs around the social media discontent, and the markets changing? You made a comment about that. But is it shifting to business value? Is that kind of what you guys are trying to get there? What do you say to those young leaders out there? And also what's happening in that market? >> Well I do think that there is this aspect of you know, building infrastructure, data centers, right, there's just this piece of okay, it's hard work, right, you have to transition people over time, your customers or CIOs, there is a level of security, confidence, et cetera, that needs to occur on that side. And then you have the dynamism of the consumer trends. And you know, Cook at Apple clearly is the elder statesman of the consumer social side of the world as well, and you know, he's not a teenager anymore, in that sense. But clearly it's this ability to generate extraordinary growth, extraordinary new valuation, as we've seen with Google and with Facebook. And how all of that matures, for social to become a sustained monetization model in the industry, isn't really proven yet. >> You know I was really liking Michael Dell on stage, trying to really make his point, I'm not going away, yeah we did a direct business model, we're the PC guys. And then he's advocating, and it's good to see him back in the game like that-- >> Yeah, me too, I think Michael, over the last two years, you know he has a tough job. HP has a tough job, to really transform those companies. And we have to say okay, Michael, he's really made progress. >> A lot of the CEOs in that PC era, they put a lot of East Coast mini computer companies out of business I think, don't want to see that happen to themselves, are a lot more paranoid to these (chuckling) year olds companies firms, and really more aggressive about staying the course. >> Yep, and Michael I think, has clearly said, I'm up for this challenge, and I'm going to take my namesake company through that challenge. >> So I got to ask you a hardware question. Because you know that business. Now you're going to be moving more into the different kind of this, with virtualization and apps. But HP and Dell are classic PC vendors. They've innovated, they were part of the whole Wintel generational shift. They have huge market shares, still. Margins yeah, are tight, but the market's changing. You guys' point about that, a new way. Apple has huge market value, and they have single digit share and growing, in hardware, yet they're so valuable. So the logic is, if you connect the dots, small, single digit share, yet huge profits. Really great, good products obviously. But they're wrapping services in other business models around the hardware, what's your take on that? I you were at Dell and HP, and saying hey, don't give up that PC business, just move fast, don't become driftwood, but what kind of services are they going to have to wrap around these products? Because the end user computing world, yes it is changing, multiple devices, but Apple has demonstrated that you can have a very strong hardware business and wrap around it. So what's your advice to those guys? >> Well I don't think of Apple as a hardware business, in that sense, I think Apple has been focused on a user experience that happens to be embodied in hardware and services, right? And in that sense, they have owned the user experience. They're maniacal about industrial design, they're maniacal about that whole experience, and have really innovated in how consumers buy, utilize, their products, and I think any aspect of things that touch the user have to have that in mind. It's all about the user experience, and they've done it well, and they've said, it's not hardware, it's not software. It's that integrative platform and experience. And my advice to anybody in that space, whether it's Dell, HP, Lenovo, RIM, Nokia, Microsoft, you have to really take that very aggressively in mind. >> So you had your put your man on the moon moment up in your keynote, you said let's get to, virtually 100% of applications, versus, I think you said 90%. That's intimidating, I'm reminded of the climber who's climbing to the top of the mountain and it's like this false summit, right? So, my question is, to get there you're going to have to lick the complexity problem. And over the years in IT, we think we've got that problem solved, and then you peel the onion, and and oh boy, there's more complexity there. To get to that 90%, you're going to have to solve that complexity problem, are we, have we solved it, are we on that path? >> Well, I think we're beginning to lay the foundation for it. And I think some of the software defined data center pieces, okay you know, we got to attack management and orchestration, we got to attack the network and security. So clearly those are elements of it. We have to make storage easy and available. But we also have to attack some of the higher level problems as well. Some of the cloud foundry, the PAZ layers as well, because it's not just about modernizing the old, with things like GemFire, and Data Fabric, and rebuilding the database environment, but it's also enabling the new, and enabling those across the multi cloud environments. And you know, so it's a lot of work to go do. But I think we've laid out the core pieces of the vision, and now my job is really to refine, execute and accelerate that endgame. >> Pat, I got to ask you about disruption and change. Joe Tucci made a comment that I thought was pretty Joe Tucci-like, when asked about the trends. And he said the horizontal's getting shorter, and the vertical's getting steeper in terms of the time, the change and the disruption. And he's hyper focused on that. I know you are too, and you tend to move fast and executive in watching your career. So let's take this software defined networking trend. I know we reported that you were in, when you took over EMC Ventures and looked at that, and you guys moved on some of those deals. So that's really key success, and we talk about it on theCUBE, but that's a game changer for VMware, like SpringSource was acquired, acquisition changed the developer landscape, now you got the Nicira deal as a game changing statement, but you have existing stuff going on like VCE, which is pioneering a lot of the vBLock stuff right? So you got VCE out there, and now you got the software defined data center at the merging side. So how do you sort that out? I know you're you know, first week on the job, or first second day on the job, but I mean you know the history. So, VC obviously, is a flagship offering is the vBLock, how does that fit into this change? I mean it's quickly, the disruption's positive. But they got to react, so a lot of the moving parts have to kind of, get tweaked. What do you see there for VCE? >> Well, and clearly you know, we have, on the SDN side, before I answer the VCE piece of it, you know we have two incredible assets. Right, we have the whole vShield, VXLAN capability, which you'd say, inside of the VMware environment was already well down the path of SDN, and now we have the Nicira assets, and NBP, and Open vSwitch, et cetera, so now, job one for us is bring those together as the most complete offering for the SDN space in the industry. You know we got two great teams. Bring those together, and unquestionably, we got the top talent in the world. So we got to make that happen, and then, we have to make that available for our partners to be able to then innovate with us, underneath us, and on top of us. We announced Sisco partnership yesterday, around how we're going to work together on that hardware, software boundary. And then with VCE, it's used them as the world class delivery vehicle for converged infrastructure, but now from the VMware role, it's hey guess what, you know HP just did a great integrated demo of their converged integrated. How are they going to participate with our SDN assets? And how do we enable them, how do we enable Dell, how do we enable the rest of the industry? >> And VCE now, how's that relationship, that's a separate company, but it's well funded and they've knocked down some good deployments. It's pretty solid, is it a high end offering? Is it more of, I mean how do you sort that out product wise? >> Well you know, VCE vBLock has always been a higher end offering, that's where UCS is positioned. It really is the premiere platform in in the industry. And we expect to continue to invest in that and partner with them, and VCE's doing well, hitting a billion dollar run weight, so we're happy with them. But as I'm quickly learning, I've got other great partners as well. >> So ecosystems obviously, are organic, they're ever changing. How do these acquisitions that you make change the balance of the ecosystem? >> Well everyone of them is aimed at, can we do it through partnership, or should we do it as an integrated offering? And that, where that line is, is never the same. Right, and we might make a decision that hey, it's better done in ecosystem today, and two years from now, hm, it's time to integrate into the core operating system of VMware, that's just the nature of how software and operating systems are built over time. Now that said, hey we're going to be an ecosystem friendly company, and even where we choose to integrate will always have OpenAPIs that enable industry innovation around us because there's more bright people outside of VMware than there are inside of VMware. So, and if we don't allow people to innovate with us, well yeah, they're going to go innovate somewhere else. >> Well, they have to move fast. You can't predict every innovation that's going to come down the road, and boom, something like Nicira was started in 2007, I mean-- >> You know, and I did a speech last year. I called it the Golden Triangle of Innovation. And there are are three primary pools of innovation. What we do organically, inside of an enterprise, like VMware, what happens in the university community, and what happens in the startup community. And we believe that we effectively have to participate in all three of those. Yeah we have our roots from Stanford and that community, and Nicira comes from Stanford and Berkeley, so clearly we see the university piece of it. We see the inorganic piece of acquisitions, and obviously organic, cool things we're that doing like VXLAN inside of the company. >> You've done a great job, I mean we can honestly say, we've been tracking you from the original interview, you did those things, and every year we ask you, we'll ask you at the end of this interview, what's your plan for the next 12 months? So congratulations on that. The question I want to ask you is, yesterday we heard abstract, pool, automate, which kind of is like code words for operating system. And you know you got to abstract away complexities, have resource management, and then automate and make all of that link and load together. >> You're pretty smart, that's good. >> (chuckles) I had to look that up this morning on Wikipedia, so that's cool, and you've also talked about your historical experience at Intel, cadence of Moore's law, so the question I want to ask you is, as you take over the helm at VMware, you have a different kind of OS cadence going on that's very rapid, as Joe Tucci pointed out. What's your Moore's Law for applications look like? Because now you have an enabling infrastructure in the VMware products and technologies as well as the ecosystem, and you've got to foster that enabling technology. So what is the cadence of the app market? >> Yeah, and you know first I'll say at the operating system level, with VMware, we say boy, we like this yearly cadence. And it's nice that it sort of matches with tick-tock model at Intel which I helped create. And sort of the major, minor releases of VMware are sort of in lock step with that. And you know, because what sets a cadence? Why shouldn't it be three or four years? What should be the right thing? And hey you know, we sort of set, we built on a firm foundation of SILICA, and we're going to align heavily on that. To me this tick-tock through through the stack, and then if I look to the next level of the stack, clearly you know, agile and sprints and so on, have allowed app development to occur, I'll say in a social, crowd sourced model in an effective way, but I think fundamentally, you got to say what is your foundation? And I'd say boy, you know a yearly major release cycle, I think there's good, solid technical foundations for that. And then making sure that you have an effective ability to continue to do continuous innovation. >> So Pat, for the last five or seven years, this industry obviously, has focused on doing more with less, operational efficiencies, obviously the conversion infrastructure trend. John talked about abstracting, automating, or pooling and automating, all those things really driving efficiencies, and you know the story with IT spending. It's flat, it's been down, but there's a thinking out there, with big data, and with new Flash architectures, that we can have major impacts on productivity. When John asked you at EMC World, what would you do if you were running VMworld, you answered, part of your answer was more tighter storage integration. I want to ask you specifically about a top down storage integration, in other words, bringing Flash, really managed from the server level, doing atomic writes, and driving new levels of productivity for organizations that go beyond just sort of cutting costs and better TCO. Can you talk about just the vision of, is that the right place to do it? In other words, controlling the metadata from fast servers versus slow storage? You know, it's an interesting transition from a storage company to now where you are as the head of VMware. >> Yeah, unquestionably, you know we have to do a better job at VMware of taking advantage of Flash on the server side, the performance capabilities of that, the IO gap that's opened up. In-memory data applications, but at the same time, we're seeing the polar extremes become more polar. The size of big data, will forever drive these larger and larger pools of scale out data on the one end, and now with in-memory and Flash technology on the server side, the things that you can do with extreme performance characteristics, at the server, at the application level, and VMware has to do a better job of making that available. And some of the things that Steve talked about with vFlash is an example of that. And we are going to do a lot better job of enabling those high performance, in-memory characteristic applications on this end, while an agent with larger and larger pools of shared storage on the other end. >> And embracing Hadoop you get one in further, you're going to bring big data analytic applications, and actually potentially feed those transaction applications that you're virtualizing in near real time, is that direction. >> Oh yeah, absolutely, but to me, the phenomenal thing is the extremes that are emerging here, where everything used to be just in a shared storage array, we're now sort of blown apart, right? Now we have high performance and memory on one end, and these massive scale platforms, and multi petabytes on the other end. It's pretty spectacular, and I said I essentially want to operate on both of them in essentially real time. >> What's interesting Pat, when we were at EMC World, I asked you can there be a red hat for Hadoop, and you said, you know, editorialized, you said you don't think it could be. We recently had that debate on SiliconANGLE and pretty much the crowd is weighing in that there is no red hat for Hadoop, mainly because just the market conditions are different. So just, I wanted to share that with you, and that we're going to continue to do that-- >> I'm glad they agree with me, I like that, so. >> You've made some good calls on big data. The question I want to ask you is though, is in the major presentation yesterday, you guys laid out the new experiences, and you talked about old way, new way. Access, it was access, app, and infrastructure, PC users, to mobile users, existing apps to new apps and big data, service to cloud. So I wanted to ask you about converged infrastructure. Because that's the old way, so a lot of the definitions around converged infrastructure has been defined as part of that old side, that side of the street that's old. Yet, in the new operating system future that we talk to everyone about, data's now a key kernel part of the design. So I want to ask you, data infrastructure, define what data infrastructure is as it relates to the new converged, if it's not replacing converged infrastructure, how has converged infrastructure changed from old to modern with data at the center of the value proposition? >> Yeah, you know, my EMC World keynote speech touched on this a little bit, this idea of data gravity. Where data gets bigger and bigger and heavier and heavier, and as the networks become agile, and VMs become mobile, things sort of move around that gravity well of the data. And I expect that to continue forward. So today, converged infrastructure, you'd say what's at the center of a vBLock? Right, you say well, sort of the UCS servers, because that's where the apps run. And I think increasingly in the future, the center of converged infrastructure's more around the storage infrastructure, because VMs are so mobile and light in comparison. But the idea of collapsing the boundaries between server, network and storage, I think is still a very fundamental concept. And when you go look inside of a Google data center, they don't quite think about it the same way. It's this array of infrastructure that is agilely available for their different applications. And I think that's fundamentally the right model. And a cloud scale version of converged infrastructure makes a lot of sense as well. >> And highly homogeneous, and many have observed, obviously, the advantage that Amazon and Google have. And you're clearly, the software defined data centers moving toward a homogeneous environment. >> Right, one common software layer across a set of services that are embodied in converged infrastructure hardware. >> And historically, homogeneous has meant you don't get best of breed. So how do you achieve best of breed? Is that through the ecosystem? Maybe, if you could elaborate on that a little bit. >> Well I think in this case, the scale operation characteristic swamp, the individual characteristics are best of breed in that sense. And they become enabled through this layer. But that hardware, software boundary is always a point of innovation. When virtualization of VMware first emerged, Mendel had this paranoia, we would rely on no hardware. We'll make it work on anything. And then over time, the hardware got better at doing things like page table mapping, memory breakthroughs, et cetera, for virtualization. All of a sudden, it's sort of like, oh the hardware's enabling better virtualization. You took advantage of it. And the same thing will emerge as you go think about converged infrastructure for networking and storage as well. The hardware will continue to evolve to better enable this virtualization layer of software and automation above it. >> We're starting at the hook, but you know we want to go, you got multi core, high megahertz clock speed right now, with Pat, we have a couple minutes left. I have two questions, one is around the future of virtualization, we're following, on SiliconANGLE.com, some of the new advances around large data centers that have commodity gear. So obviously, the usual suspects are Google, Facebook and whatnot, having a lot of commodity machines. And low level virtual machines is a really big trend now, looking at how to deploy VMwares at a programmatic layer. I don't know if you're following that. So I want you to comment on what you're following relative to some of the new trends around VMs. Obviously down to the low level, low level virtual machines and how they're playing up the stack, and then my final question after that would be, in the next 12 months, what's on your to do list? >> Yeah, well you know, I think you know, part of our task is sort of today, the leader in virtualization, is continue to leading the trends in that sense. Continuing to reduce the overhead of virtual machines, IO stack improvements, the Flash example that we gave before is a big piece of that. And continuing to enable better app affinity. You saw the Hadoop work, you know some of the big VM work around databases as well, and saying now how does, because in many ways, databases, VMs operate on, under provision hardware, and be able to over provision, and databases are over provisioning in memory for an under provisioned resource of the database, it's almost the inverse. So how do we address that? The Serengeti Hadoop work is another example of that. So there's lots of things to continue to innovate at the virtualization layer, both as you look down toward the hardware, as well as as you look up toward the application, and I think in that sense-- >> Is that where the software kind of tie in, that's why you're not seeing software-defining networking, more stuff with defined data centers? You have some ranges there, is that the part? >> Well that's a big piece of it yeah. Right, and you wanted all that to become policy based. Because you want essentially, what Steve likes to call the virtual data center to associate the policy of the application requirements as well as with the policy mechanisms of the underlying infrastructure. So that you know, the virtualization, the networking, the security elements, all of those become embodied in that as a set of services to the VM or this virtual data center. Next 12 months, obviously job one is make the transition smooth. Job two is get plan 13 in place, as the year concludes here. And then some of the key agendas of those we already talked about, operate on the SDN. We just made 1.3 billion, I better make a good use of that. Figure out our storage and security virtualization strategies, our management stack, and some of the horizon things today are really pretty thrilling for that next generation end user experience. >> Pat Gelsinger, always a blast on theCUBE, now as officially the CEO, great to have you on. >> Well actually I'm not official yet, T-minus three days now, September 1st, so I got-- >> Three days, okay September 1st. (chuckles) >> Well congratulations on the-- >> Pat Gelsinger. >> Thank you very much. >> CUBE alumni, great guy and tech athlete for sure. This is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE.com's flagship coverage of all the events extracting the signal from the noise. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break.