>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in L.A. for the Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman, my co-host. Our next guest Jim Zemlin, Executive Director of the Linux Foundation, runs the whole show. Welcome back to The Cube, great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you. Runs the whole show is a little bit of an overstatement. >> Well, certainly great keynote up there, I mean, a lot of things coming together. Just some structural things. Let's get the update on what's going on structurally with the Linux Foundation, one, and then two, the keynote today, this morning, really kind of laid out the state of the union, if you will, and all cylinders are pumping, no doubt, on open source. So give the quick update on kind of what's going on with the Linux Foundation and then let's get in some of the trends inside the open source movement. >> Yeah, I mean, our organization has grown quite a bit in the last few years as evident by all the people who are here at this event. But our focus is really on the projects that are important to, you know, the stability, security, and growth of the global internet and of large-scale systems. And when you look at Linux or Node.js or things like our networking projects which are powering the production networks for 3 1/2 billion people, what we're really focused on is making sure those projects are healthy, making sure that they have great developers who write incredible code, that it's used to power things like China Mobile's network or AT&T's production network. And then, those firms are employing the developers who then write more code, you get more solutions, products, services based on Linux or whatever. More reinvestment, lather, rinse, repeat. It's that cycle we're trying to promote. >> So before we get into some of the stats, structurally, I know this show, we've Cube comments out there, clarify the structure. How the shows are rolling out, how are you guys putting together the big-tent events, and how developers can get involved in the specific events across, but now there's a ton of projects. But just at a high level, what's the structure? >> Yeah, so, you know, and I'll throw out a few stats. We have about 25,000 developers that attend all of our events which are all over the world. But we have our Open Source Summit which is really sort of a summit to come together and talk about these big-picture issues around sustainability to allow for cross-project collaboration. We have project-specific events so the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon event which is coming up in Austin which is going to be blow-out, you know, I'm expecting thousands of people. I think probably three, 4,000 people. >> And even more platinum sponsors than I've ever seen on any project before so huge demand. >> It's crazy, yeah. Yeah, you know, get it while it's good, right? All these things kind of go up and down but they're on the upswing. So we have project-specific and then in the networking sector, we have have the Open Networking Summit which is sort of similar to the Open Source Summit but much more focused on networking technology, SDN, and NFD, and that is going to be in L.A. next year and we'll have a U.S. event and then a European and an Asian. >> And this show's purpose is what? How would you position the Open Source Summit? >> The Open Source Summit is where all the projects come together and do cross-pollination. I mean, the idea here is that if you're just always in your silo, you can't actually appreciate what someone else is doing that may improve your project. >> And Jim, there's a couple of events that came together to make this 'cause it was LinuxCon, ContainerCon, and MesosCon is also co-resident so. >> Exactly, so we just decided after a while that all these events could come together and again, this cross-pollination of ideas. >> And they kind of did, they're just different hotels in Seattle last time. >> Yeah, exactly. That's enough, it's just going to be Open Source-- >> It's a big-tent event. >> It's a big-tent event and it really reflects how open source has gone mainstream in a way that I don't think any of us would've predicted even maybe five, six years ago. >> It's pretty massive. Just to quote some stats. 23 million plus open source developers, what you shared onstage there, want to get to your keynote. 41 billion lines of code. 1,000 plus new projects a day. 10,000 new versions pushed per day. 64 million repos on GitHub. Just amazing growth so this kind of points to obviously the rising tide is floating all boats. I made a comment, I tweeted, in the spirit of the joke of standing on the shoulders of giants before you, it's like, what shoulders are we standing on now? Because there's so many projects. Is there going to be like a legacy like the dual-star, badge values, been around for a while? You mentioned old news and you bring up Linus onstage. I mean, some projects are older, more mature, Bruce Wayne, Tier One, meat and potatoes, some got a little bit more flair and fashion to it, if you will. So you got new dynamics going on. Share your thoughts on this. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like the shoulders you're standing on are almost like stage-diving, right? Where it's just lots of people's shoulders that you're really bouncing around on. But the idea here, and what we really focus on, is what are the most important projects in the world and how do we make sure we sustain those projects. So those are the ones that you're going to generally see focused on here. Like, you know, if you've got two people contributing to one small repo for a very small project, that's probably not something that's going to be super high-profile here. But what we're trying to do is bring together sort of the big projects and also the key contributors. You know, if you look at the distribution of contribution, and this is the thing, I think, if you're a developer listening to something like this, someone who gives just one commit to a project to solve some kind of problem they might have, that's the vast majority of people. Somebody who does maybe five to 10 commits, you know, a little bit less, quite a bit less. The vast majority of code, people who give 25 or more commits to a project, small group of folks, they're here. >> I know Stu wants to ask a question, one final question on the growth 'cause this kind of reminds me of sports as we're like the ESPN of tech here for the community. If you look at the growth, you put a slide in there by SourceClear that show the projection, by 2026, at 400 million libraries, putting it today around, I think, 64 million. This is going to be like an owners meeting. It's kind of like they get together, this event because you are going to have so many projects 'cause this is kind of the vibe you got going on in here. The scale is massive, this is going to be almost like the owners meeting, the teams. Expansion's going to be coming, you have to deal with that, that's challenging. >> We're ready to grow, I mean, we've been working on systems and staffing and processes to help scale with that. You know, we take seriously that that code runs modern society. It keeps us private or doesn't as we saw with the Equifax hack which was a CVE in an open source project and we want to be ready to up our game. Let's say we could have secure coding class at this very event for the greatest developers who are working on our most important projects in the world. Would that make all of our lives better? Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely would. Yeah and you want to enable that, that's where you're going. >> That's exactly where we're going. >> Jim, the quote that jumped out at me that you gave in the keynote was, projects with sustainable ecosystems are the ones that matter. How do we balance all this? I heard in, you know, Linus's Q and A it was, look, individual's important but companies are important. You put up a slide and said, there's thousands and thousands of projects, sometimes we're going to get some really awesome stuff from three people contributing code versus the massive ecosystem with all the platinum providers so, it's always in technology, it's an and and it's very nuanced but how do we get our arms around this? How do we know where to focus? >> It's worth going back in time to understand where the future is going and study innovation theory, you know, Eric von Hippel at MIT, or Karim Lakhani at Harvard Business School. And you look at the framework, which is, you have corporations who underwrite a lot of development by hiring developers who have an equal importance in this and then users of that software. So those are your main constituents and sometimes they're the same people, right, or the same things. They're not mutually exclusive, they're actually self-reinforcing if you get the formula right and you make sure that the project is in good shape so that it gives confidence to industry or society that, hey, we can count on that. I think Heartbleed and OpenSSL maybe rattled people's cages like, hey, can we count on, not just this project, but can we count on open source period? So we spent a ton of time working with that project to provide them millions in resources, audited their code, expanded their testing, and we learned a hell of a lot about how to support these communities in the most important developer projects in the world and create that positive feedback loop, that's what we're doing. >> Yeah and Jim, it's, as an analyst, one of the things we're always asked is, right, how do I choose the right technology? Whereas companies now are contributing here so it's not just I'm putting dollars in, I'm putting manpower into this. And the foundations sometimes get a lot of lung from people, saying it's like, oh well, people throw money and what do they get out of it? I liked what I heard today, you talking about this cycle, and maybe talk to our audience a little bit about CHAOSS which I though was a nice, tongue-in-cheek acronym to say how you're actually going to bring order to the chaos that we see in the open source world. >> I'm going to come to this but I want to answer one quick question about the roles of organizations like ours. We are the roadies, the supporting cast, and the plumbers and the janitors of the system that keep things going but the real rock stars are the developers. If you think about it, Linux is worth $10 billion. An average kernel developer makes probably, let's say $150,000 a year, by the way, they make more than your average developer because they're in such high demand. The role of organizations like ours is such a tiny fraction financially of what is really fueling this model but it's an important one. What we ask ourselves all the time is, why do you need us? Who cares, right? Like, throw your code up on GitHub, you don't need the Linux Foundation, right? Why do we even exist? And the answer is to do things like this Community Health Analytics for Open Source Software, to provide the infrastructure for sustainability. Sustainability is something that we need to measure, right? How many developers are contributing to a project? Are they from a diverse community so that if one group goes away, there'll be somebody else there to do that work? How much test coverage do they have? Are there code quality metrics that we could look at? Do they have security practices like a responsible disclosure policy, a security mailing list? Have they recently fuzzed their code? Are they a community that's welcoming for people of different backgrounds? And so on and so forth. If you don't have a healthy project, you kind of don't want to bet your company on this project by using it in a production system, right? But here's the interesting thing, how many people are using that code in production also is a metric for health, right? Because that's where the reinvestment is going to come in the form of developers who are working on it. >> There's a difference between being proactive and jamming something down someone's throat. So you're taking an approach, if I get this right, to be kind of the same open source ethos, use some KPIs, key performance indicators, to give them a sense of success. But it's not an edict saying-- >> No, no, it can't be an edict. What you want to do is preserve the organic innovation that goes on in open source and get projects to go, and you'll notice that curve of sort of value to volume goes up and to the left, we could've written it to the right but, you know, the whole copyleft thing we love. How do you get that organic innovation to kind of go from this small project up and to the left? How do you capture that? Well, give tools to everyone so that they can better self-analyze. >> John: You get exponential growth with that. >> Exactly. >> If you try to control, it's linear but you bring it to the community, you get exponential growth. >> Exactly, so we studied a ton of innovation theory, we looked at how we could build frameworks to facilitate this kind of form of mass innovation and so that's where tools like CHAOSS which is being worked on by Red Hat and a lot of companies who want to figure out which project should I work on? How can I spot that one earlier? And we're excited about it. >> You know, I always joke, being the old guy that I am, in the late '80s, early '90s, '80s particularly when I was coding. We did everything, we wrote all the code. You bring up an interesting stat and you put the finger on, at least for me, and I think this is where a lot of us old timers who had to do all the libraries from scratch. You mentioned the code sandwich, the code club, the club sandwich, how code's being made and the interesting thing, as you point out, 90% of most great software is done with open source where the 10% innovation is done with original code or original content, if you will, and that that is the norm. So open source is now called the code sandwich because you can put your differentiation and that's a good use of time. >> That's the meat, right. >> That's the meat, it's not a wish sandwich to use the old Blues Brothers example but I mean look, the thing is is that that's dynamic is real, the code is leverageable, and that this is the dynamic so where'd the number come from? Because that seems really high to me but I love it. >> So that number came from a combination of Sonatype, SourceClear, and other organizations that monitor commercial reuse of software on a global basis. So these are the folks who are actually working with commercial industry to look at the makeup of their code, basically. You don't have to go far to look at a Node.js developer, they're using Node.js, they're taking packages out of NPM, and they're writing, they're cut and paste masters, but they write this critical component that's the meat of their application, it's what they do. >> But that's the innovation fabric that's happening. >> It also is a requirement because let's look at a modern, luxury vehicle today. It has 100 million lines of code in it. That's more than an F-35, like, fighter jet. That's an unbelievable amount of code. Toyota, who we work with, and you know, our AGL, our Automotive Grade Linux, is in their Camry. They couldn't write that code on their own. It's just too much. And this is how we get to autonomous vehicle control and things like that. >> I know you got a tight schedule, I want to make one more comment, get your reaction to it. I made a tweet and said, it's open bar in open source and with a reference to all the goodness being donated by companies, Google TensorFlow, there's a lot of other things coming in, these libraries. A lot of people are bringing really, really big IP to the table, IoT, and I kind of made an open remark 'cause a lot of the young kids, they think this is normal, like, well it's going to get better. Keep on drinking that open source. Is this normal? Is it going to be more like this in the future? Because you have essentially real intellectual property, like say from Google, being given to the open source communities as a gift for innovation. I mean, that is just unprecedented greatness. >> The reason for that is they're not doing it necessarily altruistically although I think you can take it that way, they're doing it in a way that betters themselves and others at the same time. I mean, it is a form of collective capitalism where they've realized, my value's over here, it is better for me to collaborate on underlying infrastructure software that my customers don't care about that's not critical to my system but I absolutely have to have and I'm going to focus on data or I'm going to focus on much higher-level innovation. And what that's doing is creating this hockey stick of innovation where, as we share more and more and more infrastructure software, and as that keeps moving up and up the stack, we all benefit. >> So in the theory of the management, bring up management theory, their theory, I'd love to get your thoughts on, is that they're betting on scale rather than trying to go for profits in the short-term, they'd much rather share intellectual property on the back-end value of scale and scale's the new competitive advantage. >> Exactly, take Kubernetes as an example. The fact that, today, and just even a couple years ago this wasn't known, we didn't quite know where this was going to be, but today you can take Node.js, build a container, you know, take an application, throw it into a container, and use Kubernetes to run it on Azure, Amazon, Google, or in a private cloud. That definition, the ability to do that, unlocks this massive developer productivity which creates more value which is more business opportunity for all these guys. You know, they're not doing it 'cause they're nice people, they're doing it 'cause they're unlocking market potential. >> And they're the real rock stars. Jim you're doing a great job. Congratulations on your success. You got a lot of growth in front of you, a lot of challenges and opportunities certainly with that and of course, the tech athletes out there doing the coding, they're the real rock stars, they're the real athletes. Of course, we get more on The Cube, thanks for your support with The Cube as well, appreciate that. >> Jim: Thank you, thanks for everything. >> Alright, this is live coverage from Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, California. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

(cheerful music) >> Voiceover: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back here when we're here live with theCUBE coverage of Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, our next guest is Arpit Joshipura, General Manager of Networking the Linux Foundation. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, nice to be here again. >> Always good to talk networking, as Stu and I always say networking is probably the most active audience in our community, because at the end of the day, everything rolls downhill to networking when the people complain. It's like "where the hell's my WiFi, "where's the patent latency," networking SDN was supposed to solve all that. Stu, we're still talking about networking. When are we going to fix the network? It's always in the network, but important. In all seriousness, a lot of action continues and innovation to networking. >> Absolutely. >> What's the update? >> Update is very exciting. So first of all, I can confidently say that open source networking, not just networking, but open source networking is now mainstream. And it's mainstream in the telcos, in the carriers, service providers, it's getting there in the enterprise. And Linux Foundation is really proud to host eight of the top 10 projects that are in open source networking. ONAP, ODL, OPNFV, Fido, you know, the list goes on. And we're really excited about each of these projects, so good momentum. >> We've been seeing and talking about it too, we all, joking aside, the intro there, but in all seriousness we've been saying, we get better the network, it's finally happening. Has it been a maturization of the network itself, has it been industry force and what have been the forces of innovations been? OpenStack has done some great work, they're not getting a lot of love these days with some people, but still we've seen a lot of production workflows at OpenStack, OpenStack's still there, rocking and rolling. New projects are onboarding, you see the telcos getting business models around digital. What's the drivers? Why is network mainstream now? >> I think it's a very simple answer to that, and that is before 5G and IoT hit the market, network better be automated. It's a very simple requirement. And the reason is very self-explanatory, right? You can't have an IoT device on the call on hold while you get your service up (laughs). So, it's IoT, right? And it is the same thing on 5G, a lot of new use cases around cars or around low latency apps. You need automation, and in order to have automation, a carrier or a solution provider goes through a simple journey. Am I virtualized? Yes or no? Am I using the building blocks of SDN and NFV? Yes or no? And the third, which is now reality, which is, am I using open source to do it? Yes, and I'm going to do it. And that's the driver right? I mean it's all- >> Automation, when you started throwing out a lot of TLAs, you talk about SDN and NFV, we've got a four-letter acronym that we need to talk about. The Open Network Automation Platform. Why don't you bring your audience up to speed, what that is, the news that you have this week. >> Absolutely, so ONAP was launched earlier in 2017. It's a combination of two open source projects, ECOMP and Open-O, and we wanted to bring the community together versus sort of fragmented, and because our end users are asking for a harmonized solution. So we brought it together. It was launched earlier this year as we talked about, but the most significant thing is it has received tremendous support from the member community. So at OSS today, we just announced that Vodafone has joined as a platinum member. They will be on our board, and as you know Vodafone is one of the top providers. So if you add up all the subscribers that are being influenced by ONAP, they come to 55%. So out of the 4.5 billion subscribers that exist, more than 55% will be influenced by ONAP and the work that happens. That includes China Mobile, China Telecom, China Unicom, all of the China, Bell Canada, AT&T obviously who sort of was the founding member, Orange, Reliance Jio from India. So we've got, Comcast joined earlier in the quarter, so we've got cable companies, carriers, all joining. And to be very honest, I'll probably just give you the list of all the networking vendors that are participating here, and I've list Amdocs, Cisco, Ericsson, GigaSpaces, Hua Wei, IBM, Intel, Nokia, Tech Mahindra, VMware, ZTE, Juniper, you know, you name it. >> Arpit, I mean the long story short is-- >> Just cause they're involved does that mean they're actually working-- >> They're active. Active. >> we're not going to be critical on this. >> But come on, even Cisco's involved in the open source stuff, right? >> They've very active. >> We've had lots of guests on from Cisco, Lulu Tucker's been on many many times. We know the open source there, but it used to be, networking was very proprietary. Now, it wasn't SDNs going to totally change everything, it's lots of different pieces, lots of different projects. It kind of felt like the river slowly wearing down the mountain as to this transition from proprietary to open source. >> I think what happened is if you just look at four years back, it was proprietary. Not because people liked it, that was the only game in town. When the open source industry, especially in the networking, and this is a hundred year old industry, telecom right? When it came in in the desegregated manner, hardware and software separated, control plane separated from data plane, all of that happened, and what happened suddenly was each components started becoming mature. So they're production-ready components, and what ONAP and what Linux Foundation is intending to do this year is trying to bring all the components into a system solution. So that it's easy to deploy, and all you have to do is point, click a service, everything below it will all be automated and integrated. >> Well the telcos are under a lot of pressure. I mean this has been a decade run, over-the-top they've been struggling with that from years ago, decade ago or more. But now they're getting their act together. We're seeing some signs, even VMworld. Stu, Pat Gelsinger said 5G's the next big kahuna in networking the next 20 years, you can validate it. This is going to be a 20 year changeover, so as the Linux Foundation, which essentially is the organic growth engine for this community, what do you guys see in that 20 years? Cause I see 5G's going to create all these connection points. IoT is going to be massive. That's going to increase the surface area for potential attacks. We're seeing a networking paradigm that's moving from old guards Cisco, Juniper, and some of the names you mentioned. They got to make some changes. How are they adjusting? What's going on so the next 20 years we don't have more conflict and more identity politics. >> I'll tell you one thing, I come from a vendor community, right? So I really appreciate the work they're doing. Part of the reason you would have seen in the past a vendor dragging their feet is because of fragmentation in the community. You as a vendor do not know where to put your resources, people, and where you put your money. What we're doing at the Linux Foundation is starting to harmonize all that. And once you do that and you have enough of a scale and enough of a community, there is no shortage of people and developers that the vendors are contributing to. >> John: What's some of the proof points that you can share? >> Okay, so ONAP, from start to now, about 1100 Wiki members already. That means 1100 unique developers are joining the project. Over 50 members. We ran out of VMs, I mean it's like that has not happened in any project for over five years. We had to fire up people more. So you can see that... And this is not just, these are competitors, but if you step back and look at it, they're competitors from an end user perspective, but they're solving the common problem in which they don't get any money. They don't make any money. These are things that absolutely need to happen. The plumbing, the infrastructure, the orchestration, the control layer, the data plane layer, all of that need to just happen, it should just work. And let them differentiate on top. We are actively seeing almost everybody participating significantly. >> Stu, let's hear your thoughts on this. You guys are both, I view you guys both as experts and influencers in this networking ecosystem, so I got to ask you both a question. CNCF has gotten a lot of traction with funding, sponsorships are off the charts, you're seeing massive tractions, Stu, where you also see that KubeCon Cloud Native, but you have native clouds, I call them native clouds, in Amazon and then soon-to-be enterprises that want to run software-defined networking. So the question is do you see the same kind of support going for your group as CNCF's getting? Is it just fashionable at this point, CNCF? Why isn't the networking getting as much love at least from a sponsorship standpoint. >> Let's define love. So if you define love as the 2017 ONS, which is our largest networking summit, we grew that 10%, everything was off the charts. The feedback, the content-- >> John: The attendance growth or sponsorships? >> Attendance, sponsorships, CFPs were 5x oversubscribed. Call for papers, for submissions, 5x oversubscribed. So we had a hard time picking the best of the best. ONS 2018 is going to be here in LA, we've already started getting requests on, you know, so we're the same boat. >> So you feel good. >> We feel good. >> Not about this, like you're winning. >> No, but I tell you-- >> There'll be positive numbers we know from the hype scale horses, Stu, answer your question and then maybe you guys can comment. So is it a matter of that there's more buzz in positioning involved in the hype side of CNCF now, and there's just meat and potatoes being done in the networking world, Stu? Cause you and I both know, if no one has nothing to say, they've got to kind of market themselves. >> So John, think back to five years ago, how much hype and buzz there was around SDN. John, you and I interviewed like Martin Casado, he just bought for $1.4 billion, all these startups, lots of VC investment, so I think we're further down the maturity curve. Now networking's always-- >> John: People going to work, they're doing their job. >> It's real, it's in production-- >> It's funny-- >> It's not parb, I always say when you move from PowerPoint to production, real things happen. >> I always say, if there's going to be sizzle, I better see some steak on the grill, so what's happening is steak is cooking right now. >> And John, so one of the things we say, networking, no offense to all my friends in networking, networking is never sexy. >> Oh, come on Stu, networking is totally sexy. >> I always say it's cool again. >> Networking has never lost its edge. >> It absolutely is majorly important, but Arpit, take us in, you know, Kubernetes is hot, containers get a lot of buzz and everything. Networking, critical piece of making sure that this works, feels like, I think back to the virtualization days, it took us 10 years to kind of solve those things that that abstraction layer broke. It feels like networking is further ahead than it was, it's moving faster, we understand it's not something that's just kind of oh we'll let the networking guys get to it eventually. Networking and security, which often has that networking tie are front and center now. >> Very good point, and I think what you have to also sort of step back and look at is what are the problems that need to be solved from an end user perspective? So the hardest networking problems at the data plane control layers, check. Next big problem that remain to be solved was orchestration, data analytics, and things like that. Check, solve, with ONAP. Now the next problems that need to be solved are containerization of enterprise app, which is where Kubernetes and... and then how does containerization work with networking? That's all the C&I, the interfaces. I would say next year, you will start to see the interworking and the blend of these "hot projects" where they can all come together. >> Stu, you were there in 2010, I looked right in the camera and said to Dave Vellante, storage is not as sexy. And Dave called it snoreage, cause snoreage is boring. (Stu laughs) >> And at that time, the storage industry went on a run. And we well-documented that. Sexy is, networking is sexy. And I think that we-- >> I call it cool. >> And I just tweeted, 25g is a good indicator of a 20 year run, and networking is the big kahuna as Pat Gelsinger said in IoT, so I think, Stu, I think it's going to be very apparent, sexy. I just don't see a lot of amplifications, so you don't see a lot of people marketing the sizzle. I think, being done I would agree, but Stu, there's more buzz and hype on the CNCF side than networking. >> That's fair. I think it is always as you said, it's the initial phase of any project that gets a lot of clicks and a lot of interest, and people want to know about it. A lot of the buzz is around, just awareness. The classic marketing cycle, and I think we're past that. It was therefore ONAP in January, we're past that. >> Alright, so here's the question, final question. So the steak is coming off the grill in our metaphor here, what are people-- what is that product, what's happening, what is the big deliverable right now from a networking standpoint that people can bet on and know that they can cross the bridge into the future with it. >> You will see a visible difference, you as in an end user, an enterprise, or a residential consumer. You will see a significant difference in terms of how you get services. It's as simple as that. Why? Because it's all automated. Network on-demand, disaster recovery, video conference services. Why did over-the-top players, why were they so successful? If you need a Gmail ID, you go in, you get one. It's right there. Try getting a T1 line five years ago. That would be six weeks, six months. So with the automation in place, the models are converging. >> So provisionings are automatically happening-- >> Provisionings, service, and then the thing that you will not see but you will see in the services impact, is the closed loop automation that has all the analytics built in. Huge, huge. I mean, network is the richest source, and by the way, I'll come back next year and I'll tell you why we are cool again. Because all of a sudden, it's like oh my god look at that data and the analytics that the network is giving me. What can I do with it? You can do AI, you can do machine learning, you can do all these things. >> Well, we're looking forward to it, the eye of the storm is kind of happening now I think in networking, Stu and I always have debates about this, cause we see a lot of great action. Question is, let's see the proof points, you guys are doing some good work. Thanks for sharing, Arpit, really appreciate, General Manager of Networking at Linux Foundation. It's theCUBE, more live coverage from Los Angeles, the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, be back with more live coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Austin, Texas. It's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its Ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and joining me, my co-host, for the second day of theCube's program, Jim Kobielus. Really excited to have, not only the founder of Docker, Solomon Hykes, he's also the CTO, Chief Product Officer, did some keynotes here, all over the place. So, Solomon, thank you so much, thanks for havin' us. Congratulations on all the progress and welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thanks a lot! It's a lot of fun! >> So many things to talk about, but let's start with you. How ya doin'? I'm sure there's so much that went into this week. What are you most proud of? What are you most excited about these days? >> Where to start? The cool thing, for me, about DockerCon is I focus on the keynote. We just package up the nice story, try to explain what we're doing, where we're going, and that's a pretty massive team effort. I think it's 30 of us for months preparing, deciding what we want to talk about, working on demos, pulling all-nighters. It's just really fun to see a keynote go from nothing to a really nice, fun story. Then I get to show up and discover all the other cool stuff. I'm like everyone else. I just marvel at the organization, the crowd, the energy. I'm a happy camper right now. >> It's interesting some of the dynamics in the industry. Okay, what's the important part? Who contributes to what? What fits where? Two years ago we had the hugging out as to the runtime and had the Open Source Foundation step in. Big thing at the keynote yesterday, two big things: it was Moby project and Linux Kit. Can you, maybe, unpack for our audience a little bit? What is Docker, the company? What's the Open Source? Who are some of the main players? It was the whole keynote, so we don't have time to get into it. What's real, and what was there? >> You're right, that was the big announcement, the Moby Project. Basically, in a nutshell, we launched Docker and we made it a product and an open source project, all rolled into one. We just kind of adopted this hybrid model, building a product that would just help people be more efficient, developers and ops, and at the same time, we would develop that in the open. That really helped us. It participated in the appearance of this huge Ecosystem. It was a big decision for us. Over time, both grew. Docker grew as a product, and it grew as an open source project. So over time we had to adapt to that growth. On the open source side that meant gradually spitting out smaller projects out of the main one. Now we have dozens of projects, literally. We got containerd. We got SwarmKit. We got InfraKit. We got all these components, and each of those is a project. Then we integrate them. What we're doing now, is we're completing that transformation and making sure there's a place for open source collaboration, free-for-all, openness, modularity, try new things, move fast, break things maybe. Then there's the product that integrates, takes the best parts, integrates them together, makes sure they're tested, they're solid, and then ships that to developers and customers. Basically we're saying, Moby is for open source collaboration. It's our project and all of it. And Docker is the product that integrates that open project into something that people can consume that's simple. It's two complementary parts to our platform. >> Could you talk a little bit about, there's kind of that composable nature of what you're building there. There's what Docker will build from it, and I think you've got a couple of examples of some of your partners. What's going to happen in the Cloud? What's going to happen with some of these others? Walk us through one of those. >> Everything about Docker's modular. So really, if you installed Docker for your favorite platform, whether it's the Mac, Windows, your favorite Cloud provider, Linux server, etc., you're actually installing a product that's an assembly of lots of components. Like I said, these components are developed in the open and then they're assembled. Now with the Moby Project, there's a place to assemble in the open, start the assembly in the open, so that other companies, the broader Ecosystem, can collaborate in the assembly, kind of experiment with how things fit together. The really cool thing about that is it makes it way easier to ports the platform, to expand it and customize it. So if you're a Cloud provider and you see all the pieces and you think "Well, I could optimize that. "I could add a little bit of magic "to make it work even better in my Cloud or in my hardware." Then you can do that in the open. You can do that with a community. Then you can partner with Docker to test it, and certify it, and distribute it as an easy-to-use product. Everything can go faster. >> You mentioned open a lot there. Does that mean that Docker is now closed? There's certain people that are very dogmatic when it comes to open source, so maybe you can parse that for us. >> I think it's the same people that were complaining before that we were confusing our product and an open project. We think of ourselves as having a lot to learn, and there's an Ecosystem that's made of a lot of people and companies and projects that have had a lot of experience with openness in the past. We spend most of our time listening, figuring out what the next step should be, and then taking that next step. People told us, "Clarify the relative place, "open source collaboration and your product." That's what we did. Now, I'm sure someone's going to say, "I preferred it before." Well, we just have to, at some point, chose. The key thing to remember is, Docker does everything in the open, and then integrates it into a product that you can use. If you don't like the product, if you want an alternative, then you still have all the pieces in the open right now. I would say, no. Not only is Docker not going closed, we're actually accelerating the rate at which we're opening up stuff. >> Personally, I felt it was a nice maturation of what you've done before, which was batteries are included but swappable. But we've taken the next step. It reminds me of those cool little science kits my kids get. Where it's like, oh okay, I could free build it or I can do it or I could do some other things. >> We use that tagline. It used to be, Docker has batteries included, but swappable. You can make other batteries and we'll swap them in to the product. We'll decide what's in there. Now everyone can do the swapping. It's a big free-for-all. Honestly, it's fun to watch. >> Is there any piece of Docker, the project, outside of core Docker, that Docker the company will refrain from building, will rely on ISVs to build? Or will Docker the company get involved, or reserve for itself the latitude to get involved in development of more peripheral pieces of the overall project going forward? >> We spent a lot of time thinking about that. Honestly, there's so many different constraints, we just decided we're going to follow the users, follow the customers. We just want a platform that works and solves people's problems. That's the starting point. From there, we work out the implementation details, what technology to use, the order in which to build things. Also, what makes more sense in the core platform and what makes more sense as an add-on. It's kind of on a case-by-case basis. >> Is there a grand vision document or functional service layered architecture that all of these components of the project are implementing or enabling? In other words, will Docker, as a project ever be complete or will it always be open-ended, will it constantly evolve and possibly broaden in scope continuously, indefinitely? >> If you look at the Moby Project on the one side, with experimentations and all the building blocks, I think that's going to just continuously expand. Really, openness is all about scale. There's only so much one company can build on their own, but if you really show the Ecosystem you're serious about really welcoming everybody and allowing for different opinions and approaches, then, honestly, I think there's no limit to how large that project can scale. I think Moby can go into tens of thousands of contributors as open source becomes easier and more accessible, which we're really working on, I think it can go into hundreds of thousands. That's going to take a while. That will, I think, never end growing. I think Docker, the product, the company, the reason we've been so successful is that we've been, well at least we've worked really hard to focus and be disciplined in what problems we want to solve, so it's a more iterative approach. We would rather solve less problems, but solve them really, really well, so that if you're using Docker for developing or going to production, you're really delighted Just every detail kind of fits together. There's a roadmap, of course. We're going to do more and more. But we don't want to rush trying to do everything. >> Solomon, great progress on all of these pieces. I've got the tough one for you. In the last year or so, Kubernetes has really exploded out there. Lots of your Ecosystem is heavily using it. Is it that Docker Swarm and Kubernetes will just be options out there? I look at Microsoft Dasher and they're very supportive of both initiatives. Many of your partners are there. How do you guys look at that dynamic and how would you like people to think of that going forward? >> It's a great case study of why we're transitioning to this open project model with Moby. The whole point is that at any given time, Docker, the product, will not be using all of the building blocks out there. It's just not possible. There's too many permutations. So we have to chose. One of these building blocks is orchestration. A year ago when we decided to build an orchestration, we had really specific opinions on what it should look like, as product builders. We looked around and we decided it needs to be a new kind of a building block. So we built Swarm Kits for our own use and we integrated it. Now that there's an open project for elaboration, we're throwing Swarm Kit in there so that everyone can modify it, extend it, and also replace it with something else. I think the big change, now, is that if you look at something like Kubernetes or Rocket as a container on time. Honestly, I could make a super long list of all the components out there that are really cool and we don't use in Docker. Now you can combine them all in Moby in custom assemblies. And we actually demoed that on stage yesterday. We showed taking some pieces from Docker and taking Kubernetes as a piece and plugging it together and saying "Look, there you go! "Weekend project." I think we're going to see a lot of conversions and reuse of ideas and codes, especially in the orchestration piece. I think over time, the differences between Kubernetes, Swarm Kit, and others will really diminish. We'll just integrate the bits and pieces that make the most sense. I don't really think of Kubernetes as a competitor or a problem. I think of it as another cool component in the Moby Ecosystem. Yeah, I think it's a lot of cool stuff. >> I tell ya, the Kubernetes community is just so thrilled that containerd is now open source. It really solves that issue and really it hasn't been something I've heard a lot, coming into the show. It's one of the themes we wanted to look at, and it hasn't been something that is like, Oh boy! Fight, war, anything like that. Hey! Congrats on that! I want to turn back to your root there. I think about dotCloud to Docker. It's a lot about the application modernization. Fast forward to today, Ben's up on stage talking of the journey. How do we take your legacy applications and wrap them in? What do you think about that kind of progression? We like that spectrum out there to help customers, at least partially, and be able to make changes. But I can't imagine that's when you started Docker that that was one of the use cases that you really thought you'd use. What surprised you? What's changed how you built things? What do you see from customers? >> Actually, you'll find this surprising, but this actually was a use case that we had in mind from the very beginning. I think that was lost in the noise for the first few years in the life of Docker because it became this exciting, new thing. >> Come on, Cloud native, Cloud native! >> Yeah, exactly! Docker has a huge developer community now. We spent a lot of time making it great for devs. The truth is, I used to be sysadmin. I used to be on call. I'm an ops guy first and we learned how to help developers. Developers are the customer. The Docker came out of our ops roots and then it evolved to help the developers. That's something that's now lost in the noise of history. It's a really pragmatic tool. It's built to solve real problems. One design opinion we baked in from the beginning is that it has to allow you to do things incrementally. If Docker forces you to throw away what you have, just to get the benefits, then we screwed up. The whole point is that Docker can adapt to what you're doing. For example, you'll see a lot of details in how Docker's designed to allow for stateful applications to run in there, to allow for your own network model to fit. Before Docker, all the containers solutions, all the paths, required you to change your app. Even things like port discovery. You had to change the source code. Docker did not require that. It gives you extra things you can do if you want to go further. But the starting point is incremental. Honestly, I'm really glad that now that's resonating, that we're reaching that point in the community where there's a lot of people using Docker interested in that, because for a few years I was worried that that would be missed in the noise of early adopters that don't mind rewriting everything. From the beginning, Docker was not just for Cloud-Native, microservices, Twelve-Factor, etc. I'm, personally, as a designer of products, as a pragmatist, I'm just happy that we're there. >> How do you see Docker evolving to support more complex orchestrations for data? For hybrid data cloud, environments private and public? You got the likes of Microsoft, Oracle, and IBM as partners and so forth. They have these complex scenarios now, their customers or petabytes scale and so forth. Where do you see that going, the data, the persistence of storage side of the containerization under Docker going? >> I think there's a lot of work to do. I think over time we're going to see specialized solutions for different uses of data. Data has such a big word. It's like computing. Just like computing now is no longer considered one category but it's specialized, I think data will be the same. I think it's a great fit for this modular Lego approach to the Docker Ecosystem. We're going to see different approaches to different data models, and I think we're going to see a lot modularization and a lot of different assemblies. Again, I think a lot of that will happen in Moby and we'll see a lot of cool, open stuff. We, ourselves, are facing a lot of data related questions, in request for customers. There's stuff in there already. You've got data volumes. And I think you're going to see a lot more on the data topic in the next year. >> Like containerization of artificial intelligence and deep learning and all that. Clearly, that's very incognito so far because, yeah. >> We're seeing a lot of really cool machine learning use cases using Docker already. OpenAI is all on Docker. We watch what they're doing with great interest. >> Are you a member of that consortium? >> Let's say friends and family (laughs). So OpenAI came out of the Y Combinator Ecosystem and Docker is a Y Combinator company. We spend a lot of time with them. I think AI on Docker is a really cool use case. I'm a big fan of that. >> Jim: Cool! Us too! >> Solomon, unfortunately, we're runnin' low on time. Last question I have for you is, there is so many things we can do with Docker now. Here's a bunch of the use cases like, "Oh, I can run lots of applications." Everything from Oracles in the store now, things like that. What is the quick win when you're talking to customers and let's get started? What's the thing that gets them the most excited that impacts their business the fastest? >> Ya know, it's-- >> And it never comes down to one thing, but, ya know. >> Honestly, we keep talking about Lego. I think it's like asking, what's your favorite Lego toy? I think we're maturing in the model. I think Lego is just the perfect analogy because it's a lot of building blocks. There's more and more, but there's also the sets. I think we're consolidating around a few different sets. There's maybe a dozen main use cases. We're seeing people identify with one, and then we're helping them see a starting point there. Here's a starter set for your problem, and then it clicks. >> Yeah, I hear that, and I can't help but think back. You're the big green platform that all my Legos build on. I can have my space stuff. I can have my farm set. Maybe the Duplos don't quite fit on it. It's the platform helping me to modernize a lot of what we're doing. Solomon Hykes, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Likewise! Congratulations on all the progress here, and we look forward to catching up with you the next time! We'll be back. Jim and I will be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)