>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain at the Fira, it's KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-hosts for two days of live wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. Joining us back, we have two CUBE alums, Liz Rice, right to my right here who is a Technology Evangelist with Aqua security. Liz, thank you so much welcome back. >> Pleasure to be here. >> And Jeff Brewer, Vice President and Chief Architect, Small Business & Self-Employed Group, of Intuit. A CUBE alum since a few hours ago this morning. >> Yes, yes, thank you. >> Jeff, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> So, we've got you back with a different hat. Everybody in our industry can definitely recognize we wear lots of different hats we have lots of jobs thrown at us. Both of you are in the Technical Oversight Committee and Liz is not only a member but also the Chairperson, President. (people laughing) >> President is definitely a promotion. But, yeah, I'm Chair of the committee. >> Maybe, as it's known, the TOC. Liz, before we get there, your shirt says +1 binding. You have to explain for us and did not get a preview before the interview, so we'll see where this goes. >> It's one of the perks of being on the TOC. When we have something that comes to a vote we want to get input from the community so we ask anyone in the community to vote. But unless you're a member of the TOC your vote is non-binding. As a member of the committee, we have binding votes. And the traditional thing you write on the voting email is +1 binding. So, it's a nice surprise to get a t-shirt when I joined the TOC. >> Very nice. Can you just give us, our audience, that might not be familiar with the TOC, give us some of the key things about it. >> It's the Technical Oversight Committee for the CNCF. We are, really, the technical curation of the projects that come in to the CNCF. Which projects will get support and at what level because we have the sandbox experimentation stage then incubation and then finally graduation for the really established and kind of, de-risked projects. So, we're really evaluating the projects and kind of making a decision collaboratively on which ones we want the CNCF to support. >> All right. So Jeff, we had a great conversation with you about Intuit's cloud journey. Tell us how you got involved in the TOC. We always love the end users, not just using but participating in and helping to give some governance over what the community is doing. >> Yeah, so, about a year and a half ago we made a decision to acquire a small company called Applatix. Who was, actually, already in the end user community. And also contributors as well. Through that acquisition, I was part of that acquisition, I led that acquisition from the Intuit side and really got excited about the Kubernetes and the KubeCon story overall. Through the Kubernetes experts, I met them at a KubeCon and they introduced me to a whole lot more of the community. Just through some overall partnerships with AWS and also spending a lot of time with end-users that's how I really got to know the community a little bit. And then, was voted onto the CNCF as an end user representative in January. >> Wonderful. As far as you're concerned, as you go through this, do you find it challenging at times to separate your roles professionally from working for a large company, to whom many things matter incredibly. Again, as mentioned earlier, I am one of your customers. I care very much about technical excellence, coming out of Intuit, versus your involvement with the larger project. >> Yeah, so like most people in technology companies I'm extremely busy and I would love to spend, I would love to clone myself and spend more (laughing) more time. >> Everybody wants to submit a client project to the TOC we will prioritize that one. >> Exactly, exactly. >> The way I really balance it is that I make an explicit time carve out for those two activities. And most importantly, I attend the meetings. The TOC meetings that we have, those are extremely important. We get a lot of project reviews in those meetings. Liz chairs those meetings. That's where I always make sure that my schedule is cleared for that. >> Taking it, I guess, one step further. Do you find it challenging at all to separate out, in fact, when you're making decisions and making votes, for example, that are presumably binding, +1 binding as we've learned now, is the terminology. Do you find that you are often pulled between trying to advocate for your company and advocating for the community or are they invariably aligned in your mind? >> I mean, my job's the easiest because I come from an end user. So what I use and what I consume is likely what the community at large. There might be some niches and stuff like that. But I usually don't have that conflict. I don't know, as more of a vendor, you might have more of a conflict. >> It's something that I have be conscious of. I just try to mentally separate. I have a role with a company that pays my salary but when I'm doing open-source things if I feel conflicted about. This hasn't really come up yet, but if I do feel that there's some kind of conflict of interest I will always recuse myself. Actually, in my previous role, as the Co-Chair for the Program Committee for the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Conference, on a couple of occasions we had competitors submit, and I would always just step back from those. Because it's the right thing to do. >> All right. So Liz, there's quite a few projects now, under the umbrella of CNCF. If I've go it right, it was like, 38 different ones. When Brian went on the stage this morning, 16 in the sandbox, 16 incubating and six have graduated now. How do you manage that? You know, there's some in the community they're like, oh my gosh, reminds us of like, big tent, from some initiatives. Some other things here, how much is too much? How do you balance that and what's the input of the TOC? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we're doing with the TOC is we've just established a thing called the SIGs, the special interest groups. Very much following the same model of Kubernetes SIGs. But the idea here is that we can, kind of formalize getting experts in the community to help us with particular kind of areas. So, we've already got a storage and security SIG set up. We expect there will be probably four to six more coming on board during the year. And that helps us with things like the project reviews and the due diligence to just be able to say, we would really appreciate some help. Those groups are also really enthusiastic about kind of sharing knowledge in the form of things like white papers. I think it will be really important for end-users to be able to navigate their way around these projects. Quite often there is more than one solution for a particular thing. And being able to, in a non-vendor way, in a neutral way, express why project X is good in one circumstance and project Y would be better in a different environment. There's work to be done there and I'm hoping to see that come out. >> This is one of my passions as the end user representative, is that trail map or that road map. That's one of the reasons why we really have invested at Intuit, in the Kubernetes technology and the Cloud Native technology. We didn't just roll them out as is. We actually curate them and create, really, a paved road for our developers to navigate that space. >> Yeah, and as we heard from your story it's not always, well, if there's some overlap you use SDO and Hellman. >> Yeah. >> That there's a fit for both of those in your environment, right. >> Yeah. >> From a, I guess, an end user perspective is there a waiting difference between someone like Intuit and someone like Twitter for pets, where there's a slight revenue scale, a slight revenue difference, like scale difference, like everything difference. >> Yes. >> Certainly, there is. I think that, but that's one of the beautiful things about the Cloud Native technologies. You can consume what you need and what you want, right. It's not one size fits all. A lot of people talk about, oh, there's a paradox of choice, there's so many projects, right. Actually, that's a benefit. Really, all you need is that road map to navigate your way through that, rather than just adopting a paved road that might not work for everybody. >> It almost feels, to some extent, almost like the AWS Service Catalog. Whenever you wind up looking at all the things they offer. It feels like going out to eat at the Cheesecake Factory. Where there is 80 pages of menu to flip through with some advertisements, great. And reminding yourself, at time, that they are not Pokemon, you do not need to catch them all. It's, sometimes, a necessary step, as you start to contextualize this. >> That's one of the great things about having over 80 members in the end user is. You can find a buddy, you can find a company like you. Talk to them, get connected with them and figure out what they're doing and learn from them. The community is broad enough to be able to do that. >> All right, so Liz, let's talk about security. >> Okay. (people laughing) >> You said there's a SIG that started up. Where are we, how are things going and you can you share about where we're going in the near future? >> The SIG came together from a group of people who really wanted to make it easier for end-users to roll out their Cloud Native stacks in a secure fashion. We don't always, as a community, speak the same language about security, we don't always have the most secure settings by default. They really came together around this common interest of just making it easier for people to secure. I think a big part of that will be looking at how the different projects, are they applying best practices from a security perspective? Is there more they should do to document how to operate their particular project more securely? I think that whole initiative and that group of people who've come together for SIG security, I'm so impressed and so pleased that they have come together with that enthusiasm to help on that front. >> Any commentary on what you're seeing in this space? >> Yeah, so as an almost, a fintech company, with a lot of fintech and, you know, we're not quite a bank, but we have a lot of the same security and compliance things. That SIG is so, so important to us. And having a roadmap. I found a education is really, really a big part of it of the security experts, right. Because this is somewhat newer technology. Even though it's been in use at Google for a long time the regulator's, the compliance people, don't totally understand it, right. So you have to have a way to explain to them what's going on. So things like, open policy agent, something that we've adopted, helps us explain what's going on in our system. Once they get it, they're like, this is awesome and our end users can now, really, our end users, meaning the people that use QuickBooks and TurboTax can really trust that we have those guardrails in place. >> At Aqua, it's a huge concern from a lot of our customers. Many of whom, coming from that kind of finance industry. That they're coming to us and saying, well, how can I be PCI compliant or GDPR. How do I manage these requirements with my container based stack, with my Cloud Native stack. That's why there is this huge ecosystem quite a lot of effort around security, compliance, policy. >> It feels very much like it's two problems rolled into one. First, how do you make sure that data is secure in these things? Secondly, how do you effectively and responsibly communicate that to a regulator, who expects to be taken on a tour of a data center when they show up on site? (people laughing) I checked, they won't let you. >> There are definitely two sets of security people in my experience. There are a set of people who care about how will I get attacked. How will breaches happen. And there are other people who go, I have a checklist and I need to check the boxes in the checklist, tell me how. Sometimes those two things overlap, but not always. >> All right, Liz, lot of updates, as always. Jeff, I really appreciate your commentary there. Well, there's the paradox of choice but we have a lot of customers out there and therefore we do. (people chuckling) Any highlights you want to share with our audience? >> I think one thing that happens every year is we see more. Well, we saw Kubernetes graduate, I think, early last year, end of the previous year. Now we've got six projects into graduation. From my perspective, that says something about how mature this whole set of projects, this whole platform is becoming. Because graduation is a pretty high bar. Not least in terms of the number of end users that have to be using it in production. This is solid technology. >> Yeah, any highlights from you? >> I think, like we might have touched on a little bit this morning. But I think that usually the technologies that where you're facing the big problems is pretty obvious which one to use, right. Like serverless, you're going to go look at something like Knative or whatnot. Functions as a service. There's some open fast projects, whatnot, like that. SDO services mesh is another one where it's getting mature and it's getting to the point where you can have these ubiquitous service meshes throughout it. So, those are the areas that we're most looking at right now. >> Great, all right. Well, Liz and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all the work you do on the Oversight Committee and appreciate you sharing the updates with our community. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back more, with theCUBE here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host Corey Quinn, and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Jeff Brewer, who's the Vice President and Chief Architect of Small Business and Self-Employed Group at Intuit. He's going to talk about your cloud journey. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're welcome, I'm glad to be here. >> All right, so, Jeff, the easy part of this is, I think, most of our audience has probably heard of Intuit, but maybe give us that first setting of, you know, the part of the group you're in, and your role, and then we want to get into that journey. >> Yeah, yeah, no, it's great. So, yeah, first of all, thanks for having me here and I'm what's called the Chief Architect of the Small Business and Self-Employed Group. Intuit is about powering prosperity around the world. That's our fairly new mission. And helping both taxpayers with TurboTax and QuickBooks is our other big project. So, think of me as the Chief Architect for the QuickBooks group. And so, mostly for small businesses, helping small businesses survive through their first year, survive and prosper continuing on, so. >> And your charter there, is that the infrastructure there, you're not trying to help the world rid those malicious attacks of like, oh no, I got the new TurboTax and it didn't work well because, disclaimer, you know, I'm not paid, I've used it for many years and it's super easy for me. >> Yeah so, as a Chief Architect, I set the technical direction of the overall QuickBooks franchise both the desktop version which is our older version that, you know, has been around for 20, 25 years, and our QuickBooks Online version, which is about, only about 15 years old and is our SAS offering. And so, I do things like choose technologies that we adopt. I do things like set what are the most important technology priorities whether it's breaking things up into microservices, our cloud strategy, Kubernetes, going to cloud native, all that kind of stuff. >> Okay, so, you are a member of the Technical Oversight Committee, but we're actually going to bring you back a little bit later to talk about that, so, we'll put a pin in that. But give us a little bit as to kind of what led to this journey towards cloud and, you know, all of those pieces that you were just talking about. >> Yes, so, like many other companies with, you know, lots of legacy and lots of code that we've developed over about 35 years of existence, we actually started out in the early 2000's with building our own data centers, right. And it's very expensive, very ambitious, but at the time, there really wasn't a public cloud. But we realized that, you know, putting servers under our desks and stuff like that, you know, we really needed to grow to a more robust data center. And, you know, as we progressed in that journey, we figured out we're not the experts at maintaining and developing all the complicated networking you have to do, reliability, resiliency. We had some outages, this is 10 years ago or so, where a truck drove into a light post outside one of our data centers and took us down for a day. And that's just not acceptable for our customers. The public cloud was just starting out, AWS was a big partner out there, and our CIO, and CEO, met with the AWS executives and really decided that we needed a great partner in public cloud that really was their technical expertise. And so, we began this journey, mostly I would describe it as lift and shift, of technologies and services that we already had. We had to rewrite a few of them to make them actually work with the cloud. But by and large, most of our code is written in Java and that ports pretty well. So, we started on that journey and really right now, we are mostly running in the public cloud. We have a few legacy systems that are still running in our private data centers, but we're planning on decommissioning those. And with the public cloud, a journey we really have seen quite a, improvement in our reliability, our downtime, we can fail over between availability zones, it's just been fantastic from our overall availability, recoverability standpoint. But what we realized during that journey was that the, that the AWS native experience for our developers, while AWS is just an amazing, amazing partner, it wasn't quite the developer experience we wanted. >> It had some sharp edges. >> Yeah, we worked with them on that, and that's why we started looking at cloud-native technologies, things already developed by the community. AWS is part of the community, as well, and so they were extremely supportive in our journey to want to, from the developer experience standpoint, really start to press on these cloud-native technologies. >> Wonderful. As you went down that entire path, whenever a company goes public and they put in their S1 that they're doing some committed level of giant deal with AWS, people immediately chime in with, oh, they could save so much money by building and running their own data centers. How do you stand on that particular perspective? >> So, what's really interesting about our, our public cloud journey, right, it's not necessarily about saving a lot of money, right? And we realized that, you know, Intuit, as a mature company, you know, we're not a start-up looking to shave every little penny off of every little server. What we really want is reliability for our customers, we want awesome operations, and so, the public cloud journey actually hasn't been a huge, huge cost savings, but it has been a huge improvement in all these other levels, so it does amazing things for our customers. And we're looking to cloud native as just another, you know, bump up in that overall thing, where we get immediate mean time to recovery, where things go down, things go wrong, and we get those pods and those services right back up and running. >> Can you elaborate a little bit about the application that you're talking about, like when I first heard you say, you know, we just lifted and shifted there, it's like, oh wait, you know, a lot of times that is when we kind of claw things back because it's costs more than I thought or it didn't run as well as I thought. >> It turns out the mainframe's hard to move because they didn't build an AWS 400 yet, something doesn't happen. >> So, the challenges there, and then, you know, connect the dots with that to what you're calling the cloud native piece of this, as to what your application development looks like. >> So, I'll use QuickBooks Online as an example. Massive property, over four million customers. >> I'm one of them. >> And it started out as a, as kind of our first really big foray into SAS, right? And luckily, at the time we wrote it, mostly in Java. But it was written as this huge, monolithic piece of code, right. And so, millions of lines of code, you can imagine, large memory footprints, all that kind of stuff. And so, during our first, for public cloud, we just looked at, well, we're not going to rewrite these millions and millions of lines of code, but we want to get into public cloud. Lucky for us, EC2 instances, things like that, can run those large memory footprints. But once there, we really started examining, okay, what does this look like as microservices? Because when you have over 400 engineers working on a single code base, imagine what doing a release, a release is a ceremony, right? It's like this huge thing, you have-- >> It takes a many page calendar in order to do those things. >> Exactly, and so, what we really wanted to do is press into the microservices journey and say, okay, what if instead of having this huge oil tanker, you know, driving down the, you know, sailing down the ocean, what if we could be a bunch of speedboats, right, and use that analogy. And that's where cloud native comes in, because that's really what it's meant to do, right? A bunch of independent teams doing dev ops, you build it, you run it, right? You write the code, you run the code. And so, it plays right into to this, this ability to be very agile, give each team, you can imagine at a scale of 4000 engineers, you want little pizza team, you know, to be independent and do their own releases, and not have to coordinate all with each other. >> So, Jeff, which of the, you know, CNTF pieces are you using at Intuit, and I would like you to go in a little bit, you know, Kubernetes, a lot of people, it's like, oh well, I want portability, and it sounds like you're all in, primarily, on one public cloud, so that's probably not the first thing on your list, so, help us understand the landscape from your eyes. >> So, really it's about, it's about developer productivity. So yes, we do have this very good, strong partnership with AWS, and that is our public cloud provider. And so, the cloud-native technology, using, obviously, Kubernetes, obviously, you know, we're running Docker in the background for running the containers and all that infrastructure. We have our own open source called Argo, which we're using for deployments in the community, so we're contributing a little bit back to community, as well. We're using Istio and Envoy as a service match to really secure the interservice communications and support all the routing and whatnot. And we're also leaning very heavily now into serverless technologies, and so, we write our app, QBO or QuickBooks Online, as a stateful application, but we're realizing the power of having these really stateless small functions, and so we want to do that, as well. And the way we look at it as, Lambda is a fantastic technology for something like that, but the developer experience, we want the same developer experience for our containers that we do from our functions, right? And if you really think about it, it's just about deploying, it's how you deploy. Do I deploy into containers and then a pod structure, like in Kubernetes? Or do I deploy to a functions as a service? It should run on the infrastructure, and so, from a developer standpoint, from the end developer that's actually developing the applications and services that our customers are using, we want the declarative infrastructure of Kubernetes, we want the ease of deployment and of operations. You can just imagine a development team not having to learn the huge depth that's behind that Kubernetes, that developer experience is just unbelievable and second to none. And you can imagine these teams sitting around, you know, at lunch time, doing their release, something goes wrong, they're on the call, they're solving the problems for their customers, in fact, doing another release, if there's any problems. And so, that's where we really, really lean in heavily to these cloud technologies, the cloud-native technologies, so we can get even faster at the developers. >> Do you find that making it more accessible and having a consistent developer experience has, I guess, broadened the ability of your developers to iterate more rapidly, or is more about ensuring consistency across the board? In other words, is it a speed value for you or is it more about just consistency, so you can wind-up up-to-point to multiple architectures? >> It's really about both. We see, you know, agility is often confused with speed and velocity, but we see that enabling a developer to release code to production in just a few minutes is extremely, extremely powerful to the overall velocity because what they're more likely to do is they're more likely to experiment, be bold, try new things, and then get immediate feedback for the customer. There's this experimentation loop that you want it to move as fast as possible. And so, not only that, but to your second part about the consistency, for a company like Intuit with 4000 developers, you want mobility in your organizations, and so, you want someone to feel very natural going from one small pizza team to another, and have the same tools, the same deployment architecture, and the same thing, right? So, you're not retraining them on a ton of different technologies. >> Alright, so, Jeff, you know, what could the ecosystem, you know, the partners you're working with, the various ecosystem, what could they do to make your life easier? I mean, the one that comes to mind for me is, you know, today, serverless, you know, Lambda, specifically, and Kubernetes. There are some ways to get them, you know, work at little bit, but, you know, is that top of your mind or are there other things? >> That is actually really top of my mind. We have a lot of teams experimenting with Lambda. We're running huge workloads in Lambda, but we're very much worried about this. If there's teams working on that and it's very, it's very fragmented. Some teams are deploying Lambdas off their laptops, other teams are, you know, using CICD processes. And so, we want that experience to be consistent, secure and everything. And so, as it moves to more production workloads, right, we would really like the Kubernetes and the CNCF Foundation to really have a story about serverless itself. I think it's probably more aptly called functions as a service or running functions. And I think a lot of thing happens is that it's treated as a versus. It's like, oh, I'm going to skip over that containers to Kubernetes thing and go to serverless, because it's versus, right? It's not versus, it's a choice for the developer about what to I want to deploy in functions, in short-running functions, or do I want to deploy in containers? Everything else up to that point is the same. And so, I'd really like to see, and that, as my role on the Technical Oversight Committee, that's something I'm really focused on for the end users 'cause I see that a lot in the end user's communities. They're dealing with the same things that we are on that functions as a service. >> Alright, so, Jeff, before I let you go, Intuit's an award winner, so, congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> I want final word from you. Talk a little bit about the award and two, talk your peers that might be, you know, they've heard about Kubernetes, but, you know, we're into the, we've crossed the chasm in the majority, but that means there's a lot of people that are still relatively early. What do you recommend to them, what tips would you give them, and start with the award though. >> Yeah, so, we're extremely honored to be the CNCF end user award winner. Our cloud journey has been a really interesting one that came really out of a, also, out of an acquisition that we did of some fantastic Kubernetes experts about 14 of them, a little company called Applatix that had this Argo project. And their mission was to make Kubernetes accessible to the overall community. And by acquiring them, we left their mission the same, but they're really helping Intuit, and we're not selling their, they're helping the community for free, when they were charging before as enterprise customers. And that's something I'd overall recommend for the peers and the companies thinking about going on a cloud native journey is it's about those people that you can find here at the conference, right, about those experts that you can hire, just a few of them, have them come into your company, explain these things, and it turns the entire company around. We now have hundreds and hundreds of teams going through and onboarding, we call it modern SAS, internally, onboarding onto this technology because they started out with that nugget or that kernel. >> Alright, well, Jeff, modern SAS, love the story, thank you so much and thanks for joining us and we will see you later to talk about the TOC. >> Glad to be here, thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, and that was Jeff Brewer from Intuit, we'll be back with lots more coverage and thank you for watching theCUBE. (dynamic digital music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

>> Live, from Barcelona Spain, it's theCube! Covering, KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019: Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and the Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi, and welcome back. this is theCube's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. We're at the end of day one of two days of live, wall-to-wall coverage. I'm Stu Miniman, and at the end of the day, what we try to do always is do our independent analysis and say what we really think. And joining me is someone that usually has no problem telling you exactly what he thinks online. So, I've challenged Mr. Corey Quinn. Cloud economist, of the Duckbill Group. and the curator, author, Last Week in AWS. To tell us what he actually thinks. >> Well, Stu, you know what your problem is. All the best feedback starts off that way. Now, this has been a fascinating experience for me. This is the first time I've ever been to KubeCon. I didn't quite know what to expect- >> It's KubeCon, not Koob-Con. Come on. It is in GitHub, how you have to make the pronunciation correct. >> We are on theCube. We would think that we would be subject matter experts on this. >> CNCF will be cracking down on you if I don't correct you on this. >> I still maintain we're in Barcelona, Italy. But that's a whole separate argument to have with other people. >> Yes, well, most Americans are geographically challenged. And we understand you have some challenges too. >> Exactly, most Americans need to learn geography, we go to war. (chuckling) >> All right, so, Corey, I guess the first question for you is, you usually go to mostly AWS shows. Most of the customers we've talked to have been AWS customers. So is this feeling much different from the usual show you go to? >> The focus of the conversations is different, and to be clear, I'm not much of a cloud partisan myself. I deal with AWS primarily because, not for nothing, that's where my customers are. That tends to be exactly where the expensive problems tend to live. For better or worse. If that changes, so will I. >> So, you're saying yet that the other cloud providers don't have their customers big enough bills, or they just haven't figured out how you might be able to help them in the future? >> To be very honest with you. Yes, is the short answer. Right now on aggregate, my customers spend about a billion dollars a year on AWS. I don't see the same order of magnitude on other providers, but it's coming. It is very clearly coming. None of these providers are shrinking as far as size goes. It's largely a matter of time. >> Alright. But Corey, I hope at least you've understood that Kubernetes at the center for all things. And that multi-cloud is the way that we are today and will always be in the future. And we should all hold hands and sing along, that we all get along. Is that what you've learned so far? >> I think that's absolutely what I've learned so far. It comes down to religion and it's perfectly name for it. I mean, Kubernetes was the Greek God of spending money on cloud services. >> All right. But seriously. Corey, I think one of the things that I really liked is. We talk to customers and there were some interesting things at least I heard when you talked about they see huge value in what they're doing with Kubernetes. Many of them only have one cloud provider today. Yet they are choosing to lay on Kubernetes either with AWS or with another solution there. What's been your take of what you've heard about. Kind of the why and what they're doing? >> There've been a few different reasons on it. One that resonated with me did validate what I talked about at the beginning of the day. Which was, that by trying to position yourself to be strategically amenable to any potential provider you might want to use in the future. You are sacrificing velocity. And you're gaining agility, losing velocity to do that. Is that trade off worth it? I don't think I'm qualified to judge. I think that's a decision every business has to make on its own. My argument has always been that if that's the decision you make, do it knowingly. And I don't think we've talked to anyone who's made that unknowingly today. >> Yeah. I think that's a really good point. What is it, you know, surprised you or interest you that we've heard so far? >> I have to be honest. I have a long and storied history in open source. I was staff at the Freenode IRC network for about a decade. Which was an interesting time. And I've seen a lot of stuff, but I don't think I've ever seen two open source projects merge before. The fact that we saw that today is still swirling around in my head for better or worse. >> Yeah. And it was OpenCensus and OpenTracing coming together. Open Telemetry. So, definitely check out Ben Siegelman. and it was Morgan McLean from a Google cloud. You know, really interested in discussion. I don't think we're sharing too much when we say off camera. There were like, look, it's like, yes, they got us in a room and we worked, but we'll try not to throw punches here on the set and everything like that. We understand that look, there are people that put these things together and you have smart people that build things the way that it should be done. And these were not like two very similar projects going in the same direction, they were built with different design principles and therefore there'll be somethings that they all need to reconcile to be able to go forward. But yeah, very interesting. >> And everyone we spoke to today was very focused on what the needs of their customers, whoever they happen to be and how to meet those customers and their business requirements. There's no one that we spoke to that was sitting here saying, oh, this is the right answer because it is technically correct. The answer is we're always of the form. This is what we need to do in order to serve customers. And it's very hard to argue against that strategy. >> All right, but none of this really matters because Serverless, right Corey? >> Oh, absolutely. Serverless is the way and the light of the future and to some extent I believe that. >> But they're not doing Serverless. I'm pretty sure they're half a step behind you. Yes, it tends to be, it's easy to make go ahead and die and say, Oh, if you're not running the absolute latest bleeding edge thing, you're behind, you're backwards, etc. And I don't get that all the sense that that is reality. I think that there's, if you're building something greenfield today, you are fundamentally going to make different choices, than if you have something you're trying to carry forward. And I don't just mean carrying forward a technical sense. I mean carrying it forward in terms of process, in terms of culture, in terms of existing business units that need to modernize. People are moving in the same general direction. The question that I think is still on answered is, today, there's a perception rightly or wrongly, that Containers are slightly behind Serverless. I don't know that that necessarily holds true. I think that they are aligned towards the same business value. I think, judge either one of them by today's constraints in the context of longer term strategy is a mistake. I'm curious to see what happens. >> Corey, I love. So we had Jeff Brewer from Intuit and they were like look, we're doing Serverless, we're doing a lot of Containerless stuffs and I'd love it for my developer not to have to worry about. And they've had been moved down that path. So, we know one of the truisms out there is everything in IT is always additive. When you talk to them and say, oh, well I'm going into cloud wait, I still have some stuff that, running on my main frame or my eyes series. And that we'll probably be running there when I've retired. We were talking offline. It's like, well, there's been a little resurgence in COBOL. Just because it did not die after Y2K and so did these things always come back and it's always additive and the longer you've been in business as a company, the more legacy you need to be able to maintain and extend and connect to where you want to go with the future. >> It's almost a sawtooth curve. As complexity continues to rise it becomes to a point where it's untenable. There's something that comes out that abstracts that away and you're back down to a level a human being might actually be able to understand. And you take it a step further and you start to see it again and again and again, and then it collapses down. Docker and a lot of the handbuilt orchestration systems were like that. And then Kubernetes came out. Initially it was fairly simple and then things have been added to it now. And I think we're climbing that sawtooth curve again. Whether or not that maintains? Whether or not that simplifies again? I find that history rhymes particularly in tech. >> Well yeah and I always worry sometimes when you talk about the abstraction layer you got to be really careful what you're abstracting. What we see here a lot, is a lot of times it's people, how can I just consume that? I want to buy it as a service and somebody take care of that not, it hides the complexity for me but some of the complexity is still there. >> Right. So our site is now intermittently slow what do you plan to do? Its update my resume immediately cause we're never untangling that Gordian knot of an infrastructure. That's not a great answer but it is an honest one in some shops. >> I've talked to, we know that there was, for a long time people outsourced what they were doing. And we need to make sure that when you're buying something as a service that you haven't outsourced, That you understand what's important to your business, what happens when things go wrong. We had some discussion today about, networking and observability that we need to be able to go down that rabbit hole, at least turn to somebody who can. Because just because I can't touch that gear doesn't mean my next not on the line, If something goes wrong. >> You can outsource a lot of work. You can't outsource responsibility. I put slightly more succinctly, the line I've always liked was you own your own availability. If you have a provider that you've thrown a lot of these things over to and they go down, well sure you're going to have loud angry phone calls and maybe a few bucks back from an SLA credit. We your customers we're down and we're suffering. So the choices you made impact your businesses perception in the market and your customer's happiness. So as much as fun as it is to be able to throw things over the wall for someone else to deal with, you're still responsible. And I think that people forget that at their own peril. >> One of the things I like. I've got a long history in open source to. If there are things that aren't perfect or things that are maturing. A lot of times we're talking about them in public. Because there is a roadmap and people are working on it and we can all go to the repositories and see where people are complaining. So at a show like this, I feel like we do have some level of transparency and we can actually have realism here. What's been your experience so far? >> I think that people have been remarkably transparent about the challenges that they're facing in a way that you don't often get at a vendor show. Where you have a single vendor, you're at their show, regardless of who that might be. You're not going to be invited back if you wind up with a litany of people coming on a video show or a podcast or screaming and sobbing in the bathroom, however you want to, whatever your media is. Just have a litany of complaints the entire time or make that provider look bad. I don't sense that there's any of that pressure. And for some reason, and this is my first coop gone, so maybe this is just the way this culture it works. Everyone, regardless of who they worked for or what they're working on or what their experience has been, seems happy. I can only assume there's something in the water. >> All right. Well, I've just been informed that the CNCF had asked me to remove Corey because he refuses to say KubeCon. But, Corey. Since this might be your last time on the program, any other final words that you have for it or I will let you do something very rare and if you have any questions for me. Love on my way. >> Absolutely. What did you find today that you didn't expect to find? >> The one that jumps out for me really is two things. One, we discussed it already is the, the observability piece coming together. The other one is. You talk about that maturation of where Amazon fits in this ecosystem. And we had lovely conversation, with Abby fuller. But not just that one. We talked to the users and how they think about it. Which is what really matters is, there's so much talk about, who contributes more code and who does the most here. But look, we're talking cloud. Most of these customers are using AWS as if not the cloud, one of the clouds. I've set it on theCube many times. When you live in a hybrid and multi-cloud world and the public cloud, AWS is the far leader. There's no debating that. So they are participating here. They are doing plenty for what their customers want and they give choice and they listen to the feedback. So that was interesting to me that maturation of where that sits because when I come into the show and many times it is, it is the open source in this whole ecosystem, trying to prevent Amazon from taking over the world. And look, we want a good robust ecosystem out there. >> We absolutely do. >> While I have many friends that work for Amazon. We probably don't want to all be working for a single company down the road. >> I certainly don't. >> We like a nice robust ecosystem where there is choice out there and that keeps its (mumbles). So that maturation of where they are on has been interesting to me so far, especially from the user stand point. >> Very much so. I don't think that anyone wants to look back and say, wow, I'm sure glad we have only one option in this entire space that does anything useful. And then a whole bunch of could have the didn't. And for better or worse, I don't think that the future is nearly as clear cut as the past of cloud. Historically, AWS has been the 800 pound gorilla. I think that we hearing fascinating things from GCP and from Azure. I don't necessarily think that the future is preordained. I do think right now it is AWS game to lose, but I'm starting to see a lot of other players in his face start to make a lot of very interesting and arguably very correct moves. >> All right. Well, we know you as our audience have lots of places where you can turn to find your information and we are always pleased that when you turn to us to watch theCube. if you have any feedback for ourselves, Corey Quinn and myself, Stu Miniman. Reach out on Twitter. We are easy to reach on that. And we have lots of posts. So if you're like, Hey, tired of looking at this mug here. Let us know. But hopefully we're asking the questions and digging into the areas that you want and we'll help your businesses going forward. So we are at the end of day one, Two days live coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon. This is the cube. You're a leader in live tech coverage. Thanks for watching. (music)