>>Welcome to the cubes coverage of C CFS, co con EU cloud native con in Valencia Spain, I'm John furrier. This is a preview interview with the co-chairs versus we have Jasmine James senior engineering manager and of developer experience and Coon cloud native con EU co-chair and RI ricotta Rocher computing engineer at CERN and Coon co-chair as well at EU. Great to have you both on great to see you, both of you, >>Hey, to be here, >>Us >>Keep alumni. So, you know, Coon just continues to roll and get bigger and bigger, um, and watching all the end user action watching the corporations enterprises come in and just all the open source projects being green litted and just all the developer onboarding has been amazing. So it should be a great EU and Vale span, great venue. A lot of people I I'm talking to are very excited, so let's get into it as co-chairs take us through kind of the upcoming schedule at a very high level. Then I wanna dig into, uh, some of the new insights into selection and program programming that you guys had to go through. I know every year it's hard. So let's start with the overall upcoming schedule for COCOM. >>Yeah. So I'll dive into that. So the schedule is represents a, quite a diverse set of topics. I would say, um, I personally am a fan of those, you know, more personal talks from an end user perspective. There's also like a lot of the representation from a community perspective and how folks can get involved. Um, as most of, you know, like our tracks, the types of tracks has evolved over the year as well. So we now have a community track student track. So it's gonna be very exciting to hear content within those tracks, um, through in Valencia. So a very exciting schedule. Um, yeah. >>And just real quick for the folks watching it's virtual and physical it's hybrid event May 4th through seventh Ricardo, what's your take on the schedule? Uh, how do you see it breaking down from a high level standpoint? >>Yeah, so, um, I'm pretty excited. Um, I think the, the fact that this hybrid will help keep, um, build on the experiences we had, uh, during the pandemic times to, to give a better experience for people not making, uh, it to Valencia. I'm pretty excited also about the number of co-located events. So the two days before the conference will include, uh, um, a large number of co-located events, focusing on security S uh, and some new stuff for like batch and HPC workloads that I'm pretty close to as well. Uh, and then some, some really good consolidation in some tracks like this value, which I think will be quite, quite interesting as well. >>So you mentioned this is gonna be like watch parties, people gonna be creating kind of satellite events. Is that what you're referring to, uh, in terms of the physical space gonna be an event, obviously, um, what's going on around, outside the event, either online or as part of the program. >>So, yeah, uh, the, the, all the sessions, uh, from, from the collocated events will be available virtually as well. I don't know if people will actually be setting up parties everywhere. <laugh>, I'm sure some people will. Yeah, >>There'll definitely be >>Some. And then for, for, for the conference itself, there will be dedicated rooms where for the virtual talks, uh, people can just join in and sit for a while and watch the virtual talks and then go back to the in person, ones, uh, Monday feel >>Like, yeah, it's always a good event. Uh, Jasmine, we talked about this last time and Ricardo, we always get into the hood as well. What's the vibe on the, the, the, the programming. And honestly, people wanna get, give talks. There's a virtual component, which opens up more aperture, uh, for more community and more actions as, as Ricardo pointed out. What's what was the process this year? Because we're seeing a lot of big trends emerge, obviously securities front and center, um, end user projects are growing data engineering is a new persona. That's just really emerged out of kind of the growth of data and the role of data that it plays and containers. And, and with Kubernetes, just a lot of action. What's the, what was it like this year in, in the selection process for the program? >>Yeah, I mean, the selection process is always lots of fun for the co-chairs. Um, you shout out to program committee, track chairs, you put in a lot of great work and reviewing talks and, and it's just a very, very thorough process. So kudos to all of us who are getting through it for this year. I think that lots of things emerge, but I still feel like security is top of mind for a lot of folks, like security is really has provided. One of the biggest, um, submissions is from, from a quantity perspective, there are tons of talks submitted for security track, and that just kind of speaks for itself, right? This is something that the cloud native community cares about, and there's still a lot of innovation and people wanna voice what they're doing and share it. >>Ricardo, what's your take, we've had a lot of chats around not only some of the hardcore tech, but some of the new waves that are emerging out of the growth, the mature maturization of, of, of the segment. What are you seeing, uh, as terms of like the, the key things that came out during the, the process? >>Yeah, exactly. So I think I would highlight something that Jasmine said, which is the, the emergency emergence of some new tracks as well. Uh, she mentioned the student track, but also we added a research track, which is actually the first time we'll have it. So I'm pretty excited about that. Of course, uh, then for the trends, clearly security observability are, uh, massive tracks for app dev operations, uh, extending Kubernetes had also a lot of submissions. Um, I think the, the main things I saw that, uh, kind of, uh, gain a bit of more consistency is the part for the business value. And, uh, the, the, the fact that people are now looking more at the second step, like managing cloud costs, uh, how to optimize, uh, spot usage and, um, usage of GPUs for machine learning, things like this. So I'm pretty excited. And all these hybrid deployments also is something that keeps coming back. So those were, are the ones that, uh, I, I think came out from, from, from the submission at this time, >>You know, it's interesting as the growth comes in, you see these cool new things happen, but there are also signs of problems that need to be solved to create opportunities. Jasmine, you mentioned security. Um, there's a lot of big trends, scale Ricardo kind of hinting at the scale piece of it, but there's all this now new things, the security posture changes, uh, as you shift left, it's not, it's not, it's not over when you shift left in security in the pipeline in there, but it's, there's audits. There's the size of, uh, the security elements, uh, there's bill of materials. Now, people who got supply chains, these are huge conversations right now in the industry, supply chain security, um, scale data, uh, optimization management, um, notifications, all this is built in, built into a whole nother level. What do you guys see in the key trends in the cloud native ecosystem? >>I, I would say that a lot of the key trends, like you said, it, right, these things are not going anywhere. It's actually coming to a point of maturation. Um, I see more of a focus on how consuming, how, how companies go about consuming these different capabilities. What is that experience like? There's a talk that's gonna be offered, um, as a keynote, um, just about that security and leveraging developers to scale security within your environment. And not only is it a tool problem, it's a mindset thing that you have to be able to get over and partner bridge gaps between teams in order to make this, um, a reality within, within, um, people, within certain organizations. So I see the experience part of it, um, coming a big, a big thing. Um, there's multiple talks about that. >>Ricardo, what's your take on these trends? Cause I look at the, the, the paragraph of the projects now it's like this big used to be like a couple sentences. Now you got more projects coming on, you got the rookies in there and you got the, the veterans, the veteran projects in there. So this speaks volumes to kind of things like notaries new, right? So this is cool. Wait, what does that mean? Okay. Security auditing all this is happening. What are the, what are the big trends that you're excited about that you see that people are gonna be digging in, in, in the pro in, in the event? >>Yeah, I think we, we, we talked about supply chain just before. I think that's, that's a big one. We, we saw a, a keynote back in north America already introducing this, and we saw a lot of consolidation happening now in projects, but also companies supporting this project. Um, I, I'm also quite interested, interested in the evolution of Kubernetes in the sense that it's not just for, what was it, it was traditionally used for like traditional it services and scaling. We start seeing, there will be a very cool keynote from, from deploying, uh, Kubernetes at the edge, but really at the edge with the lower orbit satellites running ES in basically, uh, space. So those things I think are, are, are very cool. Like we start seeing really a lot of consolidation, but also people looking at Kubernetes for, for pretty crazy things, which is very exciting. >>Yeah. You mention, you mentioned space that really takes us to a whole edge, another level of edge thinking, um, you know, I've had many conversations around how do you do break fixing space with some folks in, in the space industry, in, in public sector, software is key in all this. And again, back to open source, open source has to be secured. It has to be, be able to managed effectively. It needs to be optimized into the new workflows space is one of them, you know, you see in, um, 5g edge is huge, uh, with new kind of apps that are being built there. So open source plays a big role in all this. So the, the question I wanna ask you guys is as open source continues to grow and it's growing, we're seeing startups emerge with the playbook of you. You play an open source or you actually create a project and then you get funding behind it because I know at least three or four VCs here in Silicon valley that look at the projects and say, they're looking for deals. And they're saying, keep it open a whole nother level. Can you guys share your insights on how the ecosystem's, uh, evolving with entrepreneurship and, and startups? >>Uh, oh, I guess I'll start. Um, I think that it's such a healthy thing, um, to have such innovation occurring, um, is it's really just, uh, Testament as to how the cloud native community right. Nurtures and cultivates these ideas and provides a great framework for them to develop over time, going from, you know, the sandbox and incubating and graduating and having the support of a solid framework, I think is a lot of the reason why a lot of these projects grow so quickly and reach certain these high levels of adoption. Um, so it's a really fantastic thing to see. I think that, you know, VCC an opportunity and, and, and there's a lot of great innovation that can be, you know, operationalized and scaled, right. Um, and applied to a lot of industries. So I feel it, I feel like it's a very healthy thing. Um, it also creates a lot of opportunities about something I'm passionate about, which is like, you know, people getting involved in open source as a step into the world of tech. Um, so all of these projects coming about provide an opportunity for folks to get involved in a particular component they're interested in and then grow their career in open source. So really great thing, in my opinion. >>And you mentioned the student track, by the way, I kept to point that out. I mean, that's huge. That's gonna be a lot of people who have, you know, in computer science programs or self learning. I mean, the, the, the ability to get up to speed, uh, from a development standpoint, as a coder, um, you can be a rural comp SI or, uh, just a practitioner just coding. I mean, data's everywhere. So data engineering, coding, I mean, Ricardo, this is huge student and then just every sector's opening up. I mean, the color codes on the calendar is, uh, larger than ever before. >>Yeah. I think, yeah, the, the diversity of the usage and the communities is, is something that is really important and it's been growing still. So I, I think this one not stop. Um, I'm pretty, pretty, pretty excited to see also how we'll handle this growth, because as you mentioned, like everything is increasing in numbers, number of projects, number of startups around this project. Uh, so one, one thing that I'm particularly interested on as an end user is to understand also how to help other end users that are jumping in not only the, the developers or, or the people wanting to support these projects, but also the end users. How, how do they choose their sta how, how it's, how, how should they look like for their use cases, much more than just going, uh, from, from the selection, individual projects to understand how they, they work together. So I think this is a challenge for, for the next couple of years. >>Yeah. I mean, roll your own and building blocks, whatever you wanna call it, you're starting to see people, uh, build their own stacks. And that's not a bad thing. It might be a feature, not a bug. >>Yeah. I, I would agree that I think it's something that we have to work on, uh, together to, to, to help, especially people starting in the ecosystem, but also for, for the experienced ones that start looking at other use cases as well. >>Okay. Jasmine, we talked about this last time, you gotta pick a favorite, uh, child in the, in the, in the agenda. Uh, what's your favorite session? Um, and you gotta pick one or three or maybe put handful, um, as you guys look through this year, what's the theme. I mean, people like you can kind of sense what's happening. Uh, when you look at the agenda, obviously observability is in there, all these great stuff's in there, but what's the, what's your favorite, um, uh, project or topic this year that, uh, you're jazzed about >>For me, I I'd say there's such diverse, um, topics that are being presented both on the keynote stage and throughout, um, the various tracks. I will just reference, um, the talk that I, I sort of alluded to earlier about, um, leveraging developers to scale Kubernetes. Um, it's a talk given by red hat on the keynote stage. Um, I just think it, you know, the abstracts will me because it's talks about bridging two different roles together, um, and scaling what we all know to be so important within the cloud native space, security and Kubernetes. So it's something that's very like real for me, um, in, in my current role and previous roles. So I think that that's the one that spoke to me. >>Awesome. Ricardo, what's your favorite, uh, this year? What do you, what do you, uh, if you had to put a little gold star on something that you're interested in, what it would it be? >>I think I hinted on, on it just before, which is, uh, I'm, I'm kind of a space enthusiast. So all, all this idea of running Kubernetes in space, um, makes me very excited. So really looking forward to that one, but as an end user, I'm also very interested in talks. Uh, like the one Mercedes will be doing, which is the transition from a kind of a more traditional company to this, uh, uh, more modern world of, uh, cloud native. And I'm quite interested to hear how, how, what their experience has been has been like in the last few years. >>Well, you guys do a great job. I love chatting with you and I love, uh, CNCF and following from the beginning, we were there when it was, when it was created and watched it grow from an insider perspective, the hyperscalers people who are really kind of eating glass and building scale, you know, SREs. Now you have, you have the SRE concept going kind of global mainstream, seeing enterprises and end users contributing and participating enterprises, getting, connecting those two worlds. Jasmine, as you said, as you look at that, you're starting to see the scale piece become huge. You mentioned it a little bit earlier, Jasmine, the SRE role was specific to servers and cloud. You're kind of seeing that kind of role needed for this kind of cloud native layer. We're seeing it with data engineering. It's not for the faint of heart. It may not be a persona. That's got zillions of people, but it scales. It's like an SRE role. You're seeing that with this kind of monitoring and, and with containers and Kubernetes where it's gotta get easier and scale, how do you guys see that? Do you see that emerging in the community, this, this kind of new scale role and, um, what is it, what is this trend? Or maybe I'm misrepresenting it or maybe I'm sensing it wrong, but what do you guys think about the scale piece? How is that F falling into place? >>Yeah, I, I think that is, um, adoption, like, or there's more saturation of, of cloud native technologies within any environment. Um, most in most companies realize that you have to have that represented right within the role that is managing it. Um, if you wanna have it be reliable. Um, so I think that a lot of roles are adopting those behaviors, right. In order to be able to sustain this within their environment and learning as they start to implement these things. Um, so I see that to be something that just happens. Um, we saw it was like DevOps, right? You know, engineers were starting to adopt, you know, working on the systems versus just, you know, working on software. Um, so it's sort of like encompassing all the things, right. We're, we're seeing a shift in the role and, and the behaviors that are within it in order to maintain these cloud native services. So >>Ricardo, what's your take, we've been seeing engineers get to the front lines more and more. Uh, you guys mentioned business value as one of the tracks and, uh, focus topics this year, it's happening, engineers and developers. They're getting in the front lines cuz as you move up that stack, whether it's a headless system for retail or deploying something in another sector, they gotta be in the front lines. If you're gonna be in doing machine learning and have data, you gotta have domain scales about what the business is. Right? >>Yeah. I, I, I agree very much with what Jasmine said and, and uh, if we add this for, for kind of the business value and the, this opportu opportunistic usage of, uh, all types of resources that can come from basically anywhere these days, I think this is, this is really becoming, um, a real role to, to understand how, how to best, uh, use all of this and uh, to, to make the best of all this available resources. When we start talking about, uh, CPUs, it's already important. If we start talking about GPU's, which are more scar or some sort of specialized accelerators, then, then it becomes really like something that, uh, you, you need people that know where, where to go and fish for those. Cause they, they, you can just build your own data center and, and scale that anymore. So you really need to understand what's out there. >>Applications gotta have the security posture nailed down. They gotta have it. Automation built in. You gotta have the observability, you gotta have the business value. I mean, it sounds like a mature industry developing here finally. It's happening. Good job guys. Thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you for having >>Us. And we'll see the cube here at Koon cloud native con May 16th through the 20th in Vale Spain, the cube will be there. We'll have some online coverage as well. Look for the virtual from CNCF. The cube will bring all the, all the action. I'm John fur, your host, see you in Spain and see you on the 16th.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2021 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE'S coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We've got two great guests here, always great to talk to the KubeCon co-chairs and we have Stephen Augustus Head of Open Source at Cisco and also the KubeCon co-chair great to have you back. And Jasmine James Manager and Engineering Effectives at Twitter, the KubeCon co-chair, she's new on the job so we're not going to grill her too hard but she's excited to share her perspective, Jasmine, Stephen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> So obviously the co-chairs you guys see everything upfront Jasmine, you're going to learn that this is a really kind of key fun position because you've got to multiple hats you got to wear, you got to put a great program together, you got to entertain and surprise and delight the attendees and also can get the right trends, pick everything right and then keep that harmonious vibe going at CNCF and KubeCon is hard so it's a hard job. So I got to ask you out of the gate, what are the top trends that you guys have selected and are pushing forward this year that we're seeing evolve and unfold here at KubeCon? >> For sure yeah. So I'm excited to see, and I would say that some of the top trends for Cloud Native right now are just changes in the ecosystem, how we think about different use cases for Cloud Native technology. So you'll see lot's of talk about new architectures being introduced into Cloud Native technologies or things like WebAssembly. WebAssembly Wasm used cases and really starting to and again, I think I mentioned this every time, but like what are the customer used cases actually really thinking about how all of these building blocks connect and create a cohesive story. So I think a lot of it is enduring and will always be a part. My favorite thing to see is pretty much always maintainer and user stories, but yeah, but architecture is Wasm and security. Security is a huge focus and it's nice to see it comes to the forefront as we talked about having these like the security day, as well as all of the talk arounds, supply chain security, it has been a really, really, really big event (laughs) I'll say. >> Yeah. Well, great shot from last year we have been we're virtual again, but we're back in, the real world is coming back in the fall, so we hopefully in North America we'll be in person. Jasmine, you're new to the job. Tell us a little about you introduce yourself to the community and tell more about who you are and why you're so excited to be the co-chair with Stephen. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jasmine James, I've been in the industry for the past five or six years previous at Delta Airlines, now at Twitter, as a part of my job at Delta we did a huge drive on adopting Kubernetes. So a lot of those experiences, I was very, very blessed to be a part of in making the adoption and really the cultural shift, easy for developers during my time there. I'm really excited to experience like Cloud Native from the co-chair perspective because historically I've been like on the consumer side going to talk, taking all those best practices, stealing everything I could into bring it back into my job. So make everyone's life easier. So it's really, really great to see all of the fantastic ideas that are being presented, all of the growth and maturity within the Cloud Native world. Similar to Stephen, I'm super excited to hear about the security stuff, especially as it relates to making it easy for developers to shift left on security versus it being such an afterthought and making it something that you don't really have to think about. Developer experience is huge for me which is why I took the job at Twitter six months ago, so I'm really excited to see what I can learn from the other co-chairs and to bring it back to my day-to-day. >> Yeah, Twitter's been very active in open source. Everyone knows that and it's a great chance to see you land there. One of the interesting trends is this year I'll see besides security is GitOps but the one that I think is relevant to your background so fresh is the end user contributions and involvement has been really exploding on the scene. It's always been there. We've covered, Envoy with Lyft but now enterprise is now mainstream enterprises have been kind of going to the open source well and bringing those goodies back to their camps and building out and bringing it back. So you starting to see that flywheel developing you've been on that side now here. Talk about that dynamic and how real that is an important and share some perspective of what's really going on around this explosion around more end user contribution, more end user involvement. >> Absolutely. So I really think that a lot of industry like players are starting to see the importance of contributing back to open source because historically we've done a lot of taking, utilizing these different components to drive the business logic and not really making an investment in the product itself. So it's really, really great to see large companies invest in open source, even have whole teams dedicated to open source and how it's consumed internally. So I really think it's going to be a big win for the companies and for the open source community because I really am a big believer in like giving back and making sure that you should give back as much as you're taking and by making it easy for companies to do the right thing and then even highlighting it as a part of CNCF, it'll be really, really great, just a drive for a great environment for everyone. So really excited to see that. >> That's really good. She has been awesome stuff. Great, great insight. Stephen, I just have you piggyback off that and comment on companies enterprises that want to get more involved with the Cloud Native community from their respective experiences, what's the playbook, is there a new on-ramps? Is there new things? Is there a best practice? What's your view? I mean, obviously everyone's growing and changing. You look at IT has changed. I mean, IT is evolving completely to CloudOps, SRE get ops day two operations. It's pretty much standard now but they need to learn and change. What's your take on this? >> Yeah, so I think that to Jasmine's point and I'm not sure how much we've discussed my background in the past, but I actually came from the corporate IT background, did Desktop Sr, Desktop helped us support all of that stuff up into operations, DevOps, SRE, production engineering. I was an SRE at a startup who used core West technologies and started using Kubernetes back when Kubernetes is that one, two, I think. And that was my first journey into Cloud Native. And I became core less is like only customer to employee convert, right? So I'm very much big on that end user story and figuring out how to get people involved because that was my story as well. So I think that, some of the work that we do or a lot of the work that we do in contributor strategy, the SIG CNCF St. Contributor Strategy is all around thinking through how to bring on new contributors to these various Cloud Native projects, Right? So we've had chats with container D and linker D and a bunch of other folks across the ecosystem, as well as the kind of that maintainer circle sessions that we hold which are kind of like a private, not recorded. So maintainers can kind of get raw and talk about what they're feeling, whether it be around bolstering contributions or whether it'd be like managing burnout, right? Or thinking about how you talk through the values and the principles for your projects. So I think that, part of that story is building for multiple use cases, right? You take Kubernetes for example, right? So Ameritas chair for sync PM over in Kubernetes, one of the sub project owners for the enhancements sub project which involves basically like figuring out how we intake new enhancements to the community but as well as like what the end user cases are all of the use cases for that, right? How do we make it easy to use the technology and how we make it more effective for people to have conversations about how they use technology, right? So I think it's kind of a continuing story and it's delightful to see all of the people getting involved in a SIG Contributor Strategy, because it means that they care about all of the folks that are coming into their projects and making it a more welcoming and easier to contribute place so. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. And one of the things you mentioned about IT in your background and the scale change from IT and just the operational change over is interesting. I was just talking with a friend and we were talking about, get Op and, SRAs and how, in colleges is that an engineering track or is it computer science and it's kind of a hybrid, right? So you're seeing essentially this new operational model at scale that's CloudOps. So you've got hybrid, you've got on-premise, you've got Cloud Native and now soon to be multi-cloud so new things come into play architecture, coding, and programmability. All these things are like projects now in CNCF. And that's a lot of vendors and contributors but as a company, the IT functions is changing fast. So that's going to require more training and more involvement and yet open source is filling the void if you look at some of the successes out there, it's interesting. Can you comment on the companies that are out there saying, "Hey, I know my IT department is going to be turning into essentially SRE operations or CloudOps at scale. How do they get there? How could they work with KubeCon and what's the key playbook? How would you answer that? >> Yeah, so I would say, first off the place to go is the one-on-one track. We specifically craft that one-on-one track to make sure that people who are new to Cloud Native get a very cohesive story around what they're trying to get into, right? At any one time. So head to the one-on-one track, please add to the one-on-one track, hang out, definitely check out all of the keynotes that again, the keynotes, we put a lot of work into making sure these keynotes tell a very nice story about all of the technology and the amount of work that our presenters put into it as well is phenomenal. It's top notch. It's top notch every time. So those will always be my suggestions. Actually go to the keynotes and definitely check out the one-on-one track. >> Awesome. Jasmine, I got to get your take on this now that you're on the KubeCon and you're co-chairing with Stephen, what's your story to the folks that are in the end user side out there that were in your old position that you were at Delta doing some great Kubernetes work but now it's going beyond Kubernetes. I was just talking with another participant in the KubeCon ecosystem is saying, "It's not just Kubernetes anymore. There's other systems that we're going to deploy our real-time metrics on and whatnot". So what's the story? What's the update? What do you see on the inside now now that you're on board and you're at a Hyperscale at Twitter, what's your advice? What's your commentary to your old friends and the end user world? >> Yeah. It's not an easy task. I think that was, you had mentioned about starting with the one-on-one is like super key. Like that's where you should start. There's so many great stories out there in previous KubeCon that have been told. I was listening to those stories and the great thing about our community is that it's authentic, right? We're telling like all of the ways we tripped up so we can prevent you from doing this same thing and having an easier path, which is really awesome. Another thing I would say is do not underestimate the cultural shift, right? There are so many tools and technologies out there, but there's also a cultural transformation that has to happen. You're shifting from, traditional IT roles to a really holistic like so many different things are changing about the way infrastructure was interacted with the way developers are developing. So don't underestimate the cultural shift and make sure you're bringing everyone to the party because there's a lot of perspectives from the development side that needs to be considered before you make the shift initially So that way you can make sure you're approaching the problem in the right way. So those would be my recommendation. >> Also, speaking of cultural shifts, Stephen I know this is a big passion of yours is diversity in the ecosystem. I think with COVID we've seen probably in the past two years a major cultural shifts on the personnel involved, the people participating, still a lot more work to get done. Where are we on diversity in the ecosystem? How would you rate the progress and the overall achievements? >> I would say doing better, but never stop what has happened in COVID I think, if you look across companies, if you look across the opportunities that have opened up for people in general, there have been plenty of doors that have shut, right? And doors that have really made the assumption that you need to be physical are in person to do good work. And I think that the Cloud Native ecosystem the work that the LF and CNCF do, and really the way that we interact in projects has kind of pushed towards this async first, this remote first work culture, right? So you see it in these large corporations that have had to change the travel policies because of COVID and really for someone who's coming off being like a field engineer and solutions architect, right? The bread and butter is hopping on and off a plane, shaking hands, going to dinner, doing the song and dance, right? With customers. And for that model to functionally shift, right? Having conversations in different ways, right? And yeah, sometimes it's a lot of Zoom calls, right? Zoom calls, webinars, all of these things but I think some of what has happened is, you take the release team, for example, the Kubernetes release team. This is our first cycle with Dave Vellante who's our 121 released team lead is based in India, right? And that's the first time that we've had APAC region release team lead and what that forced us to do, we were already working on it. But what that forced us to do is really focused on asynchronous communication. How can we get things done without having to have people in the room? And we were like, "With Dave Vellante in here, it either works or it doesn't like, we're either going to prove that what we've put in place works for asynchronous communication or it doesn't." And then, given that a project of this scale can operate just fine, right? Right just fine delivering a release with people all across the globe. It proves that we have a lot of flexibility in the way that we offer opportunities, both on the open source side, as well as on the company side. >> Yeah. And I got to say KubeCon has always been global from day one. I was in Shanghai and I was in hung, Jo, visiting Ali Baba. And who do I see in the lobby? The CNCF crew. And I'm like, "What are you guys doing here?" "Oh, we're here talking to the cloud with Alibaba." So global is huge. You guys have nailed that. So congratulations and keep that going. Jasmine, your perspective is women in tech. I mean, you're seeing more and more focus and some great doors opening. It's still not enough. We've been covering this for a long time. Still the numbers are down, but we had a great conference recently at Stanford Women in Data Science amazing conference, a lot of power players coming in, women in tech is evolving. What's your take on this still a lot more work to done. You're an inspiration. Share your story. >> Yeah. We have a long way to go. There's no question about it. I do think that there's a lot of great organizations CNCF being one of them, really doing a great job at sharing, networking opportunities, encouraging other women to contribute to open source and letting that be sort of the gateway into a tech career. My journey is starting as a systems engineer at Delta, working my way into leadership, somehow I'm not sure I ended up there but really sort of shifting and being able to lift other women up has been like so fortunate to be able to do that. Women who code being a mentor, things of that nature has been a great opportunity, but I do feel like the open source community has a long way go to be a more welcoming place for women contributors, things like code of conduct, that being very prevalent making sure that it's not daunting and scary, going into GitHub and starting to create a PR for out of fear of what someone might say about your contributions instead of it being sort of an educational experience. So I think there's a lot of opportunities but there's a lot of programs, networking opportunities out there, especially everyone being remote now that have presented themselves. So I'm very hopeful. And the CNCF, like I said is doing a great job at highlighting these women contributors that are making changes to CNCF projects in really making it something that is celebrated which is really great. >> Yeah. You know that I love Stephen and we thought this last time and the Clubhouse app has come online since we were last talking and it's all audio. So there's a lot of ideas and it's all open. So with a synchronous first you have more access but still context matters. So the language, so there's still more opportunities potentially to offend or get it right so this is now becoming a new cultural shift. You brought this up last time we chatted around the language, language is important. So I think this is something that we're keeping an eye on and trying to keep open dialogue around, "Hey it matters what you say, asynchronously or in texts." We all know that text moment where someone said, "I didn't really mean that." But it was offensive or- >> It's like you said it. (laughs) >> (murmurs) you passionate about this here. This is super important how we work. >> Yeah. So you mentioned Clubhouse and it's something that I don't like. (laughs) So no offense to anyone who is behind creating new technologies for sure. But I think that Clubhouse from, if you take platforms like that, let's generalize, you take platforms like that and you think about the unintentional exclusion that those platforms involve, right? If you think about folks with disabilities who are not necessarily able to hear a conversation, right? Or you don't provide opportunities to like caption your conversations, right? That either intentionally or unintentionally excludes a group of folks, right? So I've seen Cloud Native, I've seen Cloud Native things happen on a Clubhouse, on a Twitter Spaces. I won't personally be involved in them until I know that it's a platform that is not exclusive. So I think that it's great that we're having new opportunities to engage with folks that are not necessarily, you've got people prefer the Slack and discord vibe, you've got people who prefer the text over phone calls, so to speak thing, right? You've got people who prefer phone calls. So maybe like, maybe Clubhouse, Twitter Spaces, insert new, I guess Disco is doing a thing too- >> They call it stages. Disco has stages, which is- >> Stages. They have stages. Okay. All right. So insert, Clubhouse clone here and- >> Kube House. We've got a Kube House come on in. >> Kube House. Kube House. >> Trivial (murmurs). >> So we've got great ways to engage there for people who prefer that type of engagement and something that is explicitly different from the I'm on a Zoom call all day kind of vibe enjoy yourselves, try to make it as engaging as possible, just realize what you may unintentionally be doing by creating a community that not everyone can be a part of. >> Yeah. Technical consequences. I mean, this is key language matters to how you get involved and how you support it. I mean, the accessibility piece, I never thought about that. If you can't listen, I mean, you can't there's no content there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of the Cloud Native community, right? Thinking through accessibility, internationalization, localization, to make sure that our contributions are actually accessible, right? To folks who want to get involved and not just prioritizing, let's say the U.S. or our English speaking part of the world so. >> Awesome. Jasmine, what's your take? What can we do better in the world to make the diversity and inclusion not a conversation because when it's not a conversation, then it's solved. I mean, ultimately it's got a lot more work to do but you can't be exclusive. You got to be diverse more and more output happens. What's your take on this? >> Yeah. I feel like they'll always be work to do in this space because there's so many groups of people, right? That we have to take an account for. I think that thinking through inclusion in the onset of whatever you're doing is the best way to get ahead of it. There's so many different components of it and you want to make sure that you're making a space for everyone. I also think that making sure that you have a pipeline of a network of people that represent a good subset of the world is going to be very key for shaping any program or any sort of project that anyone does in the future. But I do think it's something that we have to consistently keep at the forefront of our mind always consider. It's great that it's in so many conversations right now. It really makes me happy especially being a mom with an eight year old girl who's into computer science as well. That there'll be better opportunities and hopefully more prevalent opportunities and representation for her by the time she grows up. So really, really great. >> Get her coding early, as I always say. Jasmine great to have you and Stephen as well. Good to see you. Final question. What do you hope people walk away with this year from KubeCon? What's the final kind of objective? Jasmine, we'll start with you. >> Wow. Final objective. I think that I would want people to walk away with a sense of community. I feel like the KubeCon CNCF world is a great place to get knowledge, but also an established sense of community not stopping at just the conference and taking part of the community, giving back, contributing would be a great thing for people to walk away with. >> Awesome. Stephen? >> I'm all about community as well. So I think that one of the fun things that we've been doing, is just engaging in different ways than we have normally across the kind of the KubeCon boundaries, right? So you take CNCF Twitch, you take some of the things that I can't mention yet, but are coming out you should see around and pose KubeCon week, the way that we're engaging with people is changing and it's needed to change because of how the world is right now. So I hope that to reinforce the community point, my favorite part of any conference is the hallway track. And I think I've mentioned this last time and we're trying our best. We're trying our best to create it. We've had lots of great feedback about, whether it be people playing among us on CNCF Twitch or hanging out on Slack silly early hours, just chatting it up. And are kind of like crafted hallway track. So I think that engage, don't be afraid to say hello. I know that it's new and scary sometimes and trust me, we've literally all been here. It's going to be okay, come in, have some fun, we're all pretty friendly. We're all pretty friendly and we know and understand that the only way to make this community survive and thrive is to bring on new contributors, is to get new perspectives and continue building awesome technology. So don't be afraid. >> I love it. You guys have a global diverse and knowledgeable and open community. Congratulations. Jasmine James, Stephen Augustus, co-chairs for KubeCon here on theCUBE breaking it down, I'm John Furrier for your host, thanks for watching. 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>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain in Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my cohot Paul Gillon, who's been putting in some pretty good work talking to incredible people. And we have, I don't wanna call, heard the face of CNCF, but you kind of introduced me to, you don't know this, but you know, charmer executive director of CNCF. You introduced me to Kuan at Cuan San Diego's my one of my first CU coupons. And I was trying to get my bearings about me and you're on stage and I'm like, okay. Uh, she looks like a reasonable person. This might be a reasonable place to learn about cloud native. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having me. And that's so nice to hear >><laugh> it is an amazing show, roughly 7,500 people. >>Yes, that's right. Sold out >>Sold. That's a big show. And with that comes, you know, uh, so someone told me, uh, CNCF is an outstanding organization, which it, which it is you're the executive director. And I told them, you know what, that's like being the president of the United States without having air force one. <laugh> like you get home. I dunno >>About that. You >>Get, no, you get all of the, I mean, 7,500 people from across, literally across the world. That's true at Europe. We're in Europe, we're in, we're coming out of times that have been, you know, it can't be overstated. It, this, this is unlike any other times. >>Yes, absolutely >>Difficult decisions. There was a whole co uh, uh, I don't know the term, uh, uh, cuffa uh, or blow up about mask versus no mask. How do you manage just, just the diversity of the community. >>That is such a great question, because I, as I mentioned in my keynote a little bit, right? At this point, we're a community of what, 7.1 million developers. That's a really big group. And so when we think about how should we manage the diversity, the way I see it, it's essential to treat each other with kindness, professionalism, and respect. Now that's easy to say, right. Because it sounds great. Right. Old paper is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Great >>Concept. 0.1 million people later. >><laugh> exactly. And so, uh, this is why like, uh, I phoned a friend on stage and, um, van Jones came and spoke with us. Who's the renowned CNN contributor, uh, commentator, sorry. And his advice was very much that in such a diverse community, there's always gonna be lots of perspectives, lots opinions. And we need to a always bring the version of ourselves, which we think will empower this ecosystem, BEC what are, what we are doing. If everybody did that, is that gonna be a good thing or a bad thing? And the other is we need to give each other space and grace, um, space to do what we need to do. Grace. If there are mistakes, if there are challenges. And so those are, those are some good principles for us to live by. And I think that in terms of how CNCF tries to enable the diversity, it's by really trying to hear from everybody possible, the vocal loud voices, as well as the folks who you need to reach out a little bit, pull in a little bit. So it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing challenge that we do our best with. >>How do you balance? And I've been to a lot of trade shows and conferences over the years, their trade organizers are very coin operated. You know, they're there, they're there for the money. Yeah. <laugh> and you have traditional trade shows and you have a situation here where an open source community that is motivated by very different, um, principles, but you need to make money. You need the show to be profitable. Uh, you need to sell some sponsorships, but you also need to keep it available and open to the people who, who don't have the big budgets. How are you balancing that? >>So I would actually like to, uh, share something that may not be obvious, which is that we don't actually do the shows to make money. We, um, as you said, like, uh, a lot of trade shows are coin up and the goal there is like, um, well actually they're different kinds of, I think if it's an independent event organization, it can be like, Hey, let's make as much revenue as possible. If it's part of a large, um, large company, like, like cloud provider, et cetera, the events tend to be lost leaders because they're like lead gen, I think, >>But they're, they're lost leaders, but they're profit makers ultimately >>Long term. Yeah. Yeah. It's like top of the funnel. I, I guess for us, we are only doing the events to enable the community and bring people from different companies together. So our goal is to try and break even <laugh> >>Well, that's, that's laudable. Um, the, how big does it get though? I mean, you're at the point with 7,500 attendees here where you're on the cusp of being a really big event, uh, would you limit it size eventually? Or are you just gonna let this thing run? Its course. >>So our inherent belief is that we want to be accessible and open to more and more and more people because the mission is to make cloud native ubiquitous. Right. Uh, and so that means we are excited about growth. We are excited about opening the doors for as everyone, but I think actually the one, one good thing that came out of this pandemic is that we've become a lot more comfortable with hybrid. So we have a virtual component and an in-person component. So combining that, I think makes it well, it's very challenging cause like running to events, but it's also like, it can scale a little bit better. And then if the numbers increase from like, if they double, for example, we're still, I think we're still not in the realm of south by Southwest, which, which feels like, oh, that's the step function difference. So linear increases in number of attendees, I think is a good thing. If, and when we get to the point where it's, um, you know, exponential growth at that point, we have to think about, um, a completely different event really. Right, >>Right. So 7 billion people in the world approaching 8 billion, 7.1 members in the community. Technology is obviously an enabler where I it's enabled me to, to be here and Licia Spain experiencing this beautiful city. There's so much work to be done. What mm-hmm <affirmative> what is the role of CNCF in providing access to education and technology for the rest of the world? >>Absolutely. So, you know, one of the key, uh, areas we focus on is learning and development in supporting the ecosystem in learners beginners to start their cloud native journey or expand their cloud native journey with training certifications, and actually shared this in the keynote every year. Uh, the increase in number of people taking certifications grows by 216% year over year growth. It's a lot, right? And every week about a thousand people are taking a certification exam. So, and we set that up primarily to bring people in and that's one of our more successful initiatives, but we do so many, we do mentorship programs, internship programs. We, uh, a lot of diversity scholarships, these events, it all kind of comes together to support the ecosystem, to grow >>The turning away from the events, uh, toward just toward the CNCF Brit large, you have a growing number of projects. The, the number of projects within CNCF is becoming kind of overwhelming. Is there an upper threshold at which you would, do you tighten the, the limits on, on what projects you will incubate or how big does that tent become? >>Right. I think, you know, when we had 50 projects, we were feeling overwhelmed then too, but we seem to have cop just fine. And there's a reason for that. The reason is that cloud native has been growing so fast with the world. It's a representative of what's going on in our world over the course of the pandemic. As you know, every company became a technology company. People had to like double their engineering staffs over without anybody ever having met in person mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And when that kind of change is going around the world cloud needing be being the scaffolding of how people build and deploy modern software just grew really with it. And the use cases we needed to support grew. That's why the types of projects and kinds of projects is growing. So there's a method. There's a reason to the madness I should say. And I think, um, as the world and, uh, the landscape of technology evolves cloud native will, will evolve and keep developing in either into new projects or consolidation of projects and everything is on the table. >>So I think one of these perceptions Riley Arone is that CNCF is kind of where the big people go to play. If you're a small project and you're looking at CNCF, you're thinking one day I'll get big enough. Like how should small project leaders or leaders of small projects, how should they engage CNCF? >>Totally. And, you know, I want to really change this narrative because, um, in CNCF we have three tiers of projects. There's the graduated ones, which are at the top. These are the most mature ones we really believe and put our sand behind them. They, uh, then there's the incubating projects, which are pretty solid technologies with good usage that are getting there. And then there's the sandbox, which is literally a sandbox and op open ground for innovation. And the bar to entry is low in that it's, uh, easy to apply. There's a mass boat to get you in. And once you're in, you have a neutral IP zone created by being a CNCF project that you can attract more maintainers, more companies can start collaborating. So we, we become an enabler for the small projects, so everybody should know that >>FYI. Yeah. So I won't be interested to know how that, so I have an idea. So let's say I don't have an idea, but let's say that idea have, >>I'm sure you have an idea. <laugh>, I'm >>Sure I have idea. And, and I just don't have the infrastructure to run a project. I need help, but I think it it's going to solve a pro problem. Yeah. What's that application process like, >>So, okay. So you apply after you already have let's a GitHub repo. Okay. Yeah. >>So you, I have a GI help repo. >>Yeah. As in like your pro you've started the project, you started the coding, you've like, put it out there on GitHub, you have something going. And so it's not at just ideal level. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's at like early stage of execution level. Um, and so, and then your question was, how do you apply? >>Yeah. So how do I, so I have, let's say that, uh, let, let's talk about something I'm thinking about doing, and I actually do, is that we're thinking about doing a open store, a cloud native framework for people migrating to the public cloud, to, or to cloud native. There's just not enough public information about that. And I'm like, you know what? I wanna contribute what I know to it. So that's a project in itself, not necessarily a software project, but a IP project, or let's say I have a tool to do that migration. And I put that up on my GitHub report. I want people to iterate on that tool. >>Right. So it would be a simple process of literally there is when you go to, um, our, uh, online, uh, materials, there's a simple process for sandbox where you fill a Google form, where you put in your URL, explain what you're doing, or some basic information hit submit. And we batch process these, um, about every once a month, I think. And, uh, the TC looks at the, what you've filled in, takes a group vote and goes from there. >>When about your operating model, I mean, do, do you, you mentioned you don't look to make a profit in this show. Do you look, and I wanna be sure CNCF is a non-profit, is that correct? Correct. Do you look, what models do you look at in determining your own governance? Do you look at a commercial business? Do you look at a nonprofit? Um, like of ourselves? Yeah. What's your model for how you run CNCF. >>Oh, okay. So it's a nonprofit, as I said, and our model is very simple. We want to raise the funds that we are able to raise in order to then invest them into community initiatives that play the supporter enabler role to all these projects we just talked about. We're not, we are never the project. We are the top cheerleader of the project. Think of us like that. And in terms of, um, but interestingly, unlike, I, I mean, I don't know much about other found, uh, nonprofit session compare, but interestingly, the donating companies are relevant, not just because of their cash that they have put in, but because those companies are part of this ecosystem and they need to, um, them being in this ecosystem, they help create content around cloud native. They, they do more than give us money. And that's why we really like our members, uh, they'll provide contributing engineers to projects. They will help us with marketing with case studies and interviews and all of that. And so it, it becomes this like healthy cycle of it starts with someone donating to become a member, but they end up doing so many different things. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and ultimately the goal is make cloud native ubiquitous and all this goes towards >>That. So talk to me about conflict resolution, because there's some really big projects in CNC, but only some stuff that is changed, literally changing the world, but there's competing interest between some of the projects. I mean, you, you, there there's, if you look at service mesh, there's a lot of service mesh solutions Uhhuh. Yes. And there's just different visions. Where's the CNCF and, and kind of just making sure the community aspect is thought across all of the different or considered across all the different projects as they have the let's say inevitably bump heads. >>Yeah. So by design CNCF was never meant to be a king maker where you picked one project. Right. And I think that's been working out really well because, um, one is when you accept a project, you're not a hundred percent sure that specific one is gonna take over that technology space. Right. So we're leaving it open to see who works it out. The second is that as every company is becoming a technology company, use cases are different. So a service mesh service mesh a might work really well for my company, but it really may not be a fit for your code base. And so the diversity of options is actually a really good thing. >>So talk to me about, uh, saw an interesting note coming out of the keynote yesterday, 65% of the participants here at CU con are new to Kuan. I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a vet. You are, I went to two or three before this. So O GE yeah, OG actually, that's what I tweeted OG of Kuan, but, uh, who, who are they like, what's making up? Are they developers? Are they traditional enterprises? Are they contributing companies? Who's the 65%, >>Um, who's the 65%, >>Right? The new, new, >>Well, it's all kinds of C companies sending their developers, right? It's sometimes there's a lot of them are end users. I think at least half or a third, at least of attendees are end user companies. And, uh, then there is also like the new startups around town. And then there is like the, every big company or small has been hiring developers as fast as possible. And even if they've always been a player in cloud native, they need to send all these people to this ecosystem to start building the relationships start like learning the technology. So it's all kinds of folks are collecting to that here. >>As I, as I think about people starting to learn the technologies, learn the communities, the one thing the market change for this coupon for me over others is the number of customers, sharing stories, end user organizations. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> much of the cuon that I've been through many of the open source conferences. It's always been like vendors pushing their message, et cetera. What talk, tell me about that. C change. >>One thing that's like just immediate, um, and the case right now is that all the co-chairs for the event who are in charge of designing the agenda are end users. So we have Emily Fox from apple. We have Jasmine James from Twitter, and we have Ricardo Roka from se. So they're all end users. So naturally they're like, you know, picking talks that they're like, well, this is very relevant. Imma go for that and I'm here for it. Right? So that's one thing that's just happening. The other though is a greater trend, which is, as I was saying in the pandemic, so many companies has to get going and quickly that they have built expertise and users are no longer the passive recipients of information. They're equal contributors. They know what they need, what they want, they have experiences to share. And you're seeing that reflected in the conference. >>One thing I've seen at other conferences in the past that started out really for practitioners, uh, is that invariably, they want to go upscale and they wanna draw the CIOs and the, oh yeah. The, uh, you know, the executive, the top executives. Is that an objective, uh, for you or, or do you really want to keep this kind of a, a t-shirt crowd for the long term? >>Hey, everyone's welcome. That's really important, you know? Right. And, um, so we, and that's why we are trying to expand. It's like, you know, middle out as they had in the Silicon valley show the idea being, sorry, I just meant this a little. Okay. So the idea being that we've had the core developer crews, developer, DevOps, SRE crowd, right op over the course of the last virtual events, we actually expanded in the other direction. We put in a business value track, which was more for like people in the business, but not in as a developer or DevOps engineer. We also had a student thing where it's like, you're trying to get all the university crowd people, and it's been working phenomen phenomenally. And then actually this, this event, we went, uh, in the other direction as well. We hosted our inaugural CTO summit, which is for senior leadership and end user companies. And the idea is they're discussing topics of technology that are business relevant. So our topic this time was resiliency in multi-cloud and we're producing a research paper about it. That's gonna come out in some weeks. So BA so with, for us, it's about getting everybody under this tent. Right. And, but it will never mean that we deprioritize what we started with, which is the engineering crowd. It's just an expansion >>Stay true to your roots. >>Yes. Well, Prianca, we're going to talk to a lot of those startup communities tomorrow. Ah, tomorrow's coverage. It's all about startups. Why should CTOs, uh, new startups talk to these upstarts of as opposed to some of the bigger players here on the show floor, over 170 sponsoring companies, the show floor has been vibrant engaging. Yes. And we're going to get into that community tomorrow's coverage on the cube from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townson, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader and high tech coverage.