>>Good morning, brilliant humans. Good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here live with the Cube. We are at CubeCon in Detroit, Michigan. And joining me is my beautiful co-host, Lisa, how you feeling? Afternoon of day three. >>Afternoon day three. We've had such great conversations. We have's been fantastic. The momentum has just been going like this. I love it. >>Yes. You know, sometimes we feel a little low when we're at the end of a conference. Not today. Don't feel that that way at all, which is very exciting. Just like the guests that we have up for you next. Kind of an unexpected player when we think about technology. However, since every company, one of the themes is every company is trying to be a software company. I love that we're talking to I n G. Joining us today is Ty Evers and Arno vk. Welcome to the show gentlemen. Thank >>You very much. Glad to be you. Thank you. >>Yes, it's wonderful. All the way in from Amsterdam. Probably some of the farthest flying folks here for this adventure. Starting off. I forgot what's going on with the shirts guys. You match very well. Tell, tell everyone. >>Well these are our VR code shirts. VR code is basically the player of our company to get people interested as an IT person in banking. Right? Actually, people don't think banking is a good place to work as an IT professional, but actually this, and we are using the OC went with these nice logos to get it attention. >>I love that. So let's actually, let's just talk about that for a second. Why is it such an exciting role to be working in technology at a company like I N G or traditional bank? >>I N G is a challenging environment. That's how do you make an engineer happy, basically give them a problem to solve. So we have lots and lots of problems to solve. So that makes it challenging. But yeah, also rewarding. And you can say a lot of things about banks and with looking at the IT perspective, we are doing amazing things in I and that's what we talked about. Can >>You, can you tell us any of those amazing things or are they secrets? >>Think we talked about last Tuesday at S shift commons conference. Yeah, so we had two, two presentations I presented with my coho sand on my journey over the last three years. So what has IG done? Basically building a secure container hosting platform. Yeah. How do we live a banking cot with cloud native technology and together with our coho young villa presented actually showed it by demo making life and >>Awesome >>In person. So we were not just presenting, >>It's not all smoke and mirrors. It's >>Not smoke and mirror, which we're not presenting our fufu marketing block now. We actually doing it today. And that's what we wanted to share here. >>Well, and as consumers we expect we can access our banking on any device 24 by seven. I wanna be able to do all my transactions in a way that I know is secure. Obviously security's a huge thing there, but talk about I n G Bank aren't always been around for a very long time. Talk about this financial institution as a software company. Really obviously a lot of challenges to solve, a lot of opportunity. But talk about what it's like working for a history and bank that's really now a tech company. >>Yes. It's been really changing as a bank to a tech company. Yeah. We have a lot of developers and operators and we do deliver offer. We OnPrem, we run in the public. So we have a huge engineers and people around to make our software. Yes. And I am responsible for the i Container Ocean platform and we deliver that the name space as a surface and as a real, real secure environment. So our developers, all our developers in, I can request it, but they only get a name space. Yeah, that's very important there. They >>Have >>Resources and all sort of things. Yeah. And it is, they cannot access it. They can only access it by one wifi. So, >>So Lisa and I were chatting before we brought you up here. Name space as a service. This is a newer term for us. Educate us. What does that mean? >>Basically it means we don't give a full cluster to our consumers, right? We only give them basically cpu, memory networking. That's all they need to host application. Everything else we abstract away. And especially in a banking context where compliance is a big thing, you don't need to do compliance for an entire s clusterized developer. It's really saves development time for the colleagues in the bank. It >>Decreases the complexity of projects, which is a huge theme here, especially at scale. I can imagine. I mean, my gosh, you're serving so many different people, it probably saves you time. Let's talk about regulation. What, how challenging is that for you as technologists to balance in all the regulations around banking and FinTech? It's, it's, it's, it's not like some of these kind of wild, wild west industries where we can just go out and play and prototype and do whatever we want. There's a lot of >>Rules. There's a lot of rules. And the problem is you have legislation and you have the real world. Right. And you have to find something in, they're >>Not the same thing. >>You have to find something in between with both parties on the stands and cannot adhere to. Yeah. So the challenge we had, basically we had to wide our, in our own container security standards to prove that the things we were doing were the white things to be in control as a bank because there was no market standard for container security. So basically we took some input from this. So n did a lot of good work. We basically added some things on top to be valid for a bank in Europe. So yeah, that's what we did. And the nice thing is today we take all the boxes we defined back in 2019. >>Hey, so you what it's, I guess, I guess the rules are a little bit easier when you get to help define them. Yep. Yeah. That it feels like a very good strategic call >>And they makes sense. Yeah. Right. Because the hardest problem is try to be compliant for something which doesn't make sense. Right, >>Right. Arnold, talk about, let's double click on namespace as a service. You talked about what that is, but give us a little bit of information on why I N G really believes this is the right approach for this company. >>It's protects for the security that developers doing things they don't shoot. Yeah. They cannot access their store anymore when it is running in production. And that is the most, most important. That is, it is immutable running in our platform. >>Excellent. Talk about both of you. How long have you, have you both been at I n G for a long time? >>I've been with I N G since September, 2001. So that's more than 20 years >>Now. Long time. Ana, what about you? >>Before 2000 already before. >>So both of your comment on that's a long time. Yeah. Talk about the culture of innovation that's at I N G to be able to move at such speed and be groundbreaking in what you're, how you're using technology, what, what's the appetite like at the bank to embrace new and emerging technologies? >>So we are really looking, basically the, the mantra of the bank is to help our customers get a step ahead in life and in business. And we do that by one superior customer service and secondly, sustainability at the heart. So anything which contributes to those targets, you can go to your manager and if you can make goods case why it contributes most of the cases you get some time or some budgets or even some additional colleagues to help you out and give it a try require from a culture perspective required open to trying things out before we reach production. Once you go to production. Yeah. Then we are back to being a bank and you need to take all the boxes to make really sure that we are confident with our customers data and basically we're still a bank but a lot of is possible. >>A lot. It is possible. And there's the customer on the other end who's expecting, like I said earlier, that they can access their data any time that they want, be able to do any transaction they want, making sure the content that's delivered to them is relevant, that it's secure. Obviously with, that's the biggest challenge especially is we think about how many generations are alive today and and those that aren't tech savvy. Yeah. Have challenges with that. Talk about what the bank's dedication is to ensuring from a security perspective that its customers don't have anything to worry about. >>That's always a thin line between security and the user experience. So I n g, like every other bank needs to make choices. Yes. We want the really ease of customers and take the risk that somebody abuses it or do we make it really, really secure and alienate part of our customer base. And that's an ongoing, that's a, that's a a hard, >>It's a trade off. That's >>A line. >>So it's really hard. Interesting part is in Netherlands we had some debates about banks closing down locations, but the moment we introduced our mobile weapon iPads, basically the debates became a lot quieter because a lot of elderly people couldn't work with an iPhone. It turned out they were perfectly fine with a well-designed iPad app to do their banking. Really? >>Okay. >>But that's already learning from like 15 years ago. >>What was the, what was the product roadmap on that? So how, I mean I can imagine you released a mobile app, you're not really thinking that. >>That's basically, I think that was a heavy coincidence. We just, Yeah, okay. Went out to design a very good mobile app. Yeah. And then looking out afterwards at the statistics we say, hey, who was using this way? We've got somebody who's signing on and I dunno the exact age, but it was something like somebody of 90 plus who signed on to use that mobile app. >>Wow. Wow. I mean you really are the five different generations living and working right now. Designing technology. Everybody has to go to the bank whether we are fans of our bank or we're not. Although now I'm thinking about IG as a bank in general. Y'all have a a very good attitude about it. What has kept you at the company for over 20 years? That is we, we see people move around, especially in this technology industry. Yes. Yeah. You know, every two to three years. Sometimes obviously you're in positions of leadership, they're obviously taking good care of you. But I mean multiple decades. Why have you stuck? >>Well first I didn't have the same job in I N D for two decades. Nice. So I went around the infrastructure domain. I did storage initially I did security, I did solution design and in the end I ended up in enterprise architecture. So yeah, it's not like I stuck 20 years in the same role. So every so years >>Go up the ladder but also grow your own skill sets. >>Explore. Yeah. >>So basically I think that's what's every, everybody should be thinking in these days. If you're in a cloud head industry, if you're good at it, you can out quite a nice salary. But it also means that you have some kind of obligation to society to make a difference. And I think, yeah, >>I wouldn't say that everybody feels that way. I >>Need to make a difference with I N G A difference for being more available to our consumers, be more secure to, to our consumers. I, I think that's what's driving me to stick with the company. >>What about you R Now? >>Yes, for me it's very important. Every two, three years are doing new things. I can work with the latest technology so I become really, really innovative so that it is the place to be. >>Yeah. You sort of get that rotation every two to three years with the different tools that you're using. Speaking of or here we're at Cuan, we're talking cloud native, we're talking Kubernetes. Do you think it's possible to, I'm coming back to the regulations. Do you think it's possible to get to banking grade security with cloud native Tech? >>Initially I said we would be at least as secure traditional la but last Tuesday we've proven we can get more secure than situational it. So yeah, definitely. Yes. >>Awesome. I mean, sounds like you proved it to yourself too, which is really saying something. >>Well we actually have Penta results and of course I cannot divulge those, but I about pretty good. >>Can you define, I wanna kind of double book on thanking great security, define what that is, thanking great security and how could other industries aim to Yeah, >>Hit that, that >>Standard. I want security everywhere. Especially my bank. The >>Architecture is zero privilege. So you hear a lot about lease privilege in all the security talks. That's not what you should be aiming for. Zero privilege is what you should be aiming for. And once you're at zero privileged environments, okay, who can leak data because no natural person has access to it. Even if you have somebody invading your infrastructure, there are no privileges. They cannot do privilege escalations. Yeah. So the answer for me is really clear. If you are handling customer data, if you're and customer funds aim for zero privilege architecture, >>What, what are you most excited about next? What's next for you guys? What's next for I n G? What are we gonna be talking about when we're chatting to you Right here? Atan next year or in Amsterdam actually, since we're headed that way in the spring, which is fun. Yes. >>Happy to be your host in Amsterdam. The >>Other way around. We're holding you to that. You've talked about how fun the culture is. Now you're gonna ask, she and I we need, but we need the tee-shirts. We, we obviously need a matching outfit. >>Definitely. We'll arrange some teachers for you as well. Yeah, no, for me, two highlights from this com. The first one was kcp. That can potentially be a paradigm change on how we deal with workloads on Kubernetes. So that's very interesting. I don't know if you see any implementations by next year, but it's definitely something. Looks >>Like we had them on the show as well. Yeah. So it's, it's very fun. I'm sure, I'm sure they'll be very flattered that you just just said. What about you Arnoldo that got you most excited? >>The most important for me was talking to a lot of Asian is other people. What if they thinking how we go forward? So the, the, the community and talk to each other. And also we found those and people how we go forward. >>Yeah, that's been a big thing for us here on the cube and just the energy, the morale. I mean the open source community is so collaborative. It creates an entirely different ethos. Arna. Ty, thank you so much for being here. It's wonderful to have you and hear what I n g is doing in the technology space. Lisa, always a pleasure to co-host with you. Of course. And thank you Cube fans for hanging out with us here on day three of Cuban Live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you up next for a great chat coming soon.

>>Keon Cloud Native Con kicks off in Detroit on October 24th, and we're pleased to have Stewart Miniman, who's the director of Market Insights, hi, at, for hybrid platforms at Red Hat back in the studio to help us understand the key trends to look for at the events. Do welcome back, like old, old, old >>Home. Thank you, David. It's great to, great to see you and always love doing these previews, even though Dave, come on. How many years have I told you Cloud native con, It's a hoodie crowd. They're gonna totally call you out for where in a tie and things like that. I, I know you want to be an ESPN sportscaster, but you know, I I, I, I still don't think even after, you know, this show's been around for so many years that there's gonna be too many ties into Troy. I >>Know I left the hoodie in my off, I'm sorry folks, but hey, we'll just have to go for it. Okay. Containers generally, and Kubernetes specifically continue to show very strong spending momentum in the ETR survey data. So let's bring up this slide that shows the ETR sectors, all the sectors in the tax taxonomy with net score or spending velocity in the vertical axis and pervasiveness on the horizontal axis. Now, that red dotted line that you see, that marks the elevated 40% mark, anything above that is considered highly elevated in terms of momentum. Now, for years, the big four areas of momentum that shine above all the rest have been cloud containers, rpa, and ML slash ai for the first time in 10 quarters, ML and AI and RPA have dropped below the 40% line, leaving only cloud and containers in rarefied air. Now, Stu, I'm sure this data doesn't surprise you, but what do you make of this? >>Yeah, well, well, Dave, I, I did an interview with at Deepak who owns all the container and open source activity at Amazon earlier this year, and his comment was, the default deployment mechanism in Amazon is containers. So when I look at your data and I see containers and cloud going in sync, yeah, that, that's, that's how we see things. We're helping lots of customers in their overall adoption. And this cloud native ecosystem is still, you know, we're still in that Cambridge explosion of new projects, new opportunities, AI's a great workload for these type type of technologies. So it's really becoming pervasive in the marketplace. >>And, and I feel like the cloud and containers go hand in hand, so it's not surprising to see those two above >>The 40%. You know, there, there's nothing to say that, Look, can I run my containers in my data center and not do the public cloud? Sure. But in the public cloud, the default is the container. And one of the hot discussions we've been having in this ecosystem for a number of years is edge computing. And of course, you know, I want something that that's small and lightweight and can do things really fast. A lot of times it's an AI workload out there, and containers is a great fit at the edge too. So wherever it goes, containers is a good fit, which has been keeping my group at Red Hat pretty busy. >>So let's talk about some of those high level stats that we put together and preview for the event. So it's really around the adoption of open source software and Kubernetes. Here's, you know, a few fun facts. So according to the state of enterprise open source report, which was published by Red Hat, although it was based on a blind survey, nobody knew that that Red Hat was, you know, initiating it. 80% of IT execs expect to increase their use of enterprise open source software. Now, the CNCF community has currently more than 120,000 developers. That's insane when you think about that developer resource. 73% of organizations in the most recent CNCF annual survey are using Kubernetes. Now, despite the momentum, according to that same Red Hat survey, adoption barriers remain for some organizations. Stu, I'd love you to talk about this specifically around skill sets, and then we've highlighted some of the other trends that we expect to see at the event around Stu. I'd love to, again, your, get your thoughts on the preview. You've done a number of these events, automation, security, governance, governance at scale, edge deployments, which you just mentioned among others. Now Kubernetes is eight years old, and I always hear people talking about there's something coming beyond Kubernetes, but it looks like we're just getting started. Yeah, >>Dave, It, it is still relatively early days. The CMC F survey, I think said, you know, 96% of companies when they, when CMC F surveyed them last year, were either deploying Kubernetes or had plans to deploy it. But when I talked to enterprises, nobody has said like, Hey, we've got every group on board and all of our applications are on. It is a multi-year journey for most companies and plenty of them. If you, you look at the general adoption of technology, we're still working through kind of that early majority. We, you know, passed the, the chasm a couple of years ago. But to a point, you and I we're talking about this ecosystem, there are plenty of people in this ecosystem that could care less about containers and Kubernetes. Lots of conversations at this show won't even talk about Kubernetes. You've got, you know, big security group that's in there. >>You've got, you know, certain workloads like we talked about, you know, AI and ml and that are in there. And automation absolutely is playing a, a good role in what's going on here. So in some ways, Kubernetes kind of takes a, a backseat because it is table stakes at this point. So lots of people involved in it, lots of activities still going on. I mean, we're still at a cadence of three times a year now. We slowed it down from four times a year as an industry, but there's, there's still lots of innovation happening, lots of adoption, and oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, there's just no shortage of new projects and new people getting involved. And what's phenomenal about it is there's, you know, end user practitioners that aren't just contributing. But many of the projects were spawned out of work by the likes of Intuit and Spotify and, and many others that created some of the projects that sit alongside or above the, the, you know, the container orchestration itself. >>So before we talked about some of that, it's, it's kind of interesting. It's like Kubernetes is the big dog, right? And it's, it's kind of maturing after, you know, eight years, but it's still important. I wanna share another data point that underscores the traction that containers generally are getting in Kubernetes specifically have, So this is data from the latest ETR survey and shows the spending breakdown for Kubernetes in the ETR data set for it's cut for respondents with 50 or more citations in, in by the IT practitioners that lime green is new adoptions, the forest green is spending 6% or more relative to last year. The gray is flat spending year on year, and those little pink bars, that's 6% or down spending, and the bright red is retirements. So they're leaving the platform. And the blue dots are net score, which is derived by subtracting the reds from the greens. And the yellow dots are pervasiveness in the survey relative to the sector. So the big takeaway here is that there is virtually no red, essentially zero churn across all sectors, large companies, public companies, private firms, telcos, finance, insurance, et cetera. So again, sometimes I hear this things beyond Kubernetes, you've mentioned several, but it feels like Kubernetes is still a driving force, but a lot of other projects around Kubernetes, which we're gonna hear about at the show. >>Yeah. So, so, so Dave, right? First of all, there was for a number of years, like, oh wait, you know, don't waste your time on, on containers because serverless is gonna rule the world. Well, serverless is now a little bit of a broader term. Can I do a serverless viewpoint for my developers that they don't need to think about the infrastructure but still have containers underneath it? Absolutely. So our friends at Amazon have a solution called Fargate, their proprietary offering to kind of hide that piece of it. And in the open source world, there's a project called Can Native, I think it's the second or third can Native Con's gonna happen at the cncf. And even if you use this, I can still call things over on Lambda and use some of those functions. So we know Dave, it is additive and nothing ever dominates the entire world and nothing ever dies. >>So we have, we have a long runway of activities still to go on in containers and Kubernetes. We're always looking for what that next thing is. And what's great about this ecosystem is most of it tends to be additive and plug into the pieces there, there's certain tools that, you know, span beyond what can happen in the container world and aren't limited to it. And there's others that are specific for it. And to talk about the industries, Dave, you know, I love, we we have, we have a community event that we run that's gonna happen at Cubans called OpenShift Commons. And when you look at like, who's speaking there? Oh, we've got, you know, for Lockheed Martin, University of Michigan and I g Bank all speaking there. So you look and it's like, okay, cool, I've got automotive, I've got, you know, public sector, I've got, you know, university education and I've got finance. So all of you know, there is not an industry that is not touched by this. And the general wave of software adoption is the reason why, you know, not just adoption, but the creation of new software is one of the differentiators for companies. And that is what, that's the reason why I do containers, isn't because it's some cool technology and Kubernetes is great to put on my resume, but that it can actually accelerate my developers and help me create technology that makes me respond to my business and my ultimate end users. Well, >>And you know, as you know, we've been talking about the Supercloud a lot and the Kubernetes is clearly enabler to, to Supercloud, but I wanted to go back, you and John Furrier have done so many of, you know, the, the cube cons, but but go back to Docker con before Kubernetes was even a thing. And so you sort of saw this, you know, grow. I think there's what, how many projects are in CNCF now? I mean, hundreds. Hundreds, okay. And so you're, Will we hear things in Detroit, things like, you know, new projects like, you know, Argo and capabilities around SI store and things like that? Well, you're gonna hear a lot about that. Or is it just too much to cover? >>So I, I mean the, the good news, Dave, is that the CNCF really is, is a good steward for this community and new things got in get in. So there's so much going on with the existing projects that some of the new ones sometimes have a little bit of a harder time making a little bit of buzz. One of the more interesting ones is a project that's been around for a while that I think back to the first couple of Cube Cuban that John and I did service Mesh and Istio, which was created by Google, but lived under basically a, I guess you would say a Google dominated governance for a number of years is now finally under the CNCF Foundation. So I talked to a number of companies over the years and definitely many of the contributors over the years that didn't love that it was a Google Run thing, and now it is finally part. >>So just like Kubernetes is, we have SEO and also can Native that I mentioned before also came outta Google and those are all in the cncf. So will there be new projects? Yes. The CNCF is sometimes they, they do matchmaking. So in some of the observability space, there were a couple of projects that they said, Hey, maybe you can go merge down the road. And they ended up doing that. So there's still you, you look at all these projects and if I was an end user saying, Oh my God, there is so much change and so many projects, you know, I can't spend the time in the effort to learn about all of these. And that's one of the challenges and something obviously at Red Hat, we spend a lot of time figuring out, you know, not to make winners, but which are the things that customers need, Where can we help make them run in production for our, our customers and, and help bring some stability and a little bit of security for the overall ecosystem. >>Well, speaking of security, security and, and skill sets, we've talked about those two things and they sort of go hand in hand when I go to security events. I mean, we're at reinforced last summer, we were just recently at the CrowdStrike event. A lot of the discussion is sort of best practice because it's so complicated. And, and, and will you, I presume you're gonna hear a lot of that here because security securing containers now, you know, the whole shift left thing and shield right is, is a complicated matter, especially when you saw with the earlier data from the Red Hat survey, the the gaps are around skill sets. People don't have the skill. So should we expect to hear a lot about that, A lot of sort of how to, how to take advantage of some of these new capabilities? >>Yeah, Dave, absolutely. So, you know, one of the conversations going on in the community right now is, you know, has DevOps maybe played out as we expect to see it? There's a newer term called platform engineering, and how much do I need to do there? Something that I, I know your, your team's written a lot about Dave, is how much do you need to know versus what can you shift to just a platform or a service that I can consume? I've talked a number of times with you since I've been at Red Hat about the cloud services that we offer. So you want to use our offering in the public cloud. Our first recommendation is, hey, we've got cloud services, how much Kubernetes do you really want to learn versus you want to do what you can build on top of it, modernize the pieces and have less running the plumbing and electric and more, you know, taking advantage of the, the technologies there. So that's a big thing we've seen, you know, we've got a big SRE team that can manage that for use so that you have to spend less time worrying about what really is un differentiated heavy lifting and spend more time on what's important to your business and your >>Customers. So, and that's, and that's through a managed service. >>Yeah, absolutely. >>That whole space is just taken off. All right, Stu I'll give you the final word. You know, what are you excited about for, for, for this upcoming event and Detroit? Interesting choice of venue? Yeah, >>Look, first of off, easy flight. I've, I've never been to Detroit, so I'm, I'm willing to give it a shot and hopefully, you know, that awesome airport. There's some, some, some good things there to learn. The show itself is really a choose your own adventure because there's so much going on. The main show of QAN and cloud Native Con is Wednesday through Friday, but a lot of a really interesting stuff happens on Monday and Tuesday. So we talked about things like OpenShift Commons in the security space. There's cloud Native Security Day, which is actually two days and a SIG store event. There, there's a get up show, there's, you know, k native day. There's so many things that if you want to go deep on a topic, you can go spend like a workshop in some of those you can get hands on to. And then at the show itself, there's so much, and again, you can learn from your peers. >>So it was good to see we had, during the pandemic, it tilted a little bit more vendor heavy because I think most practitioners were pretty busy focused on what they could work on and less, okay, hey, I'm gonna put together a presentation and maybe I'm restricted at going to a show. Yeah, not, we definitely saw that last year when I went to LA I was disappointed how few customer sessions there were. It, it's back when I go look through the schedule now there's way more end users sharing their stories and it, it's phenomenal to see that. And the hallway track, Dave, I didn't go to Valencia, but I hear it was really hopping felt way more like it was pre pandemic. And while there's a few people that probably won't come because Detroit, we think there's, what we've heard and what I've heard from the CNCF team is they are expecting a sizable group up there. I know a lot of the hotels right near the, where it's being held are all sold out. So it should be, should be a lot of fun. Good thing I'm speaking on an edge panel. First time I get to be a speaker at the show, Dave, it's kind of interesting to be a little bit of a different role at the show. >>So yeah, Detroit's super convenient, as I said. Awesome. Airports too. Good luck at the show. So it's a full week. The cube will be there for three days, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Thanks for coming. >>Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, sorry, >>Wednesday, Thursday, Friday is the cube, right? So thank you for that. >>And, and no ties from the host, >>No ties, only hoodies. All right Stu, thanks. Appreciate you coming in. Awesome. And thank you for watching this preview of CubeCon plus cloud Native Con with at Stu, which again starts the 24th of October, three days of broadcasting. Go to the cube.net and you can see all the action. We'll see you there.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban Cloud brought to you by Silicon Angle. >>Welcome back to the Cubes. Special Presentation on the Future of Cloud. Three years ago, Alan Nance said to me that in order to really take advantage of Cloud and Dr Billions of dollars of value, you have to change the operating model. I've never forgotten that statement have explored it from many angles over the last three years. In fact, it was one of the motivations for me actually running this program for our audience. Of course with me is Alan Nance. He's a change agent. He's led transformations that large organizations, including I N G Bank, Royal, Philips, Barclays Bank and many others. He's also a co founder of Citrus Collab. Alan, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the program. >>Thanks for having me again there. >>All right. So when we were preparing for this interview you shared with me the following you said enterprise, I t often hasn't really tapped the true powers that are available to them to make real connections to take advantage of that opportunity. Connections to the business, That is What >>do >>you mean by that. >>Well, I think, you know, we've been saying for quite a long time that enterprise. It is certainly a big part of our past in technology. But you know, just how much is it going to be in the future on, you know, enterprise, I t has had a difficult time under The pressure's off being a centralized organization with large expanse of large Catholics, while at the same time we see obviously the digital operations growing oftentimes in separate reporting structures and closer to the business on. And what I'm thinking right now is enterprise i t. If it has made this transition to cloud operating models, whether they are proprietary or whether they are public cloud, there's a huge opportunity for enterprise. I t. Thio connect the dots in a way that no other part of the organization can do that. And when they connect those dots working closely with the business, they unleash a huge amount of value that is beyond things like efficiency or things like just just just providing cloud computing to be flexible. It has to be much more about value generation. Andi. I think that a lot of leaders of enterprise I t have not really grasped that, Andi. I think that's the opportunity is sitting right in front of them right now. >>You know what I've seen lately? I wonder if you could. Comment is You know, obviously we always talk about the stove pipes, but you've you've seen, you know, the CEO, >>the chief >>data officer that you just mentioned the chief digital officer, the chief information security officer. They've largely been in their own silos. I'm definitely seeing a move to bring those together. I'm seeing a lot of CDOs and CEO roles come together and even the chief information or the head of security reporting up into that where there's there seems to be as your sort of suggesting just a lot more visibility across the entire organization. Is it Is it an organizational issue? Is it? Ah, is it a mindset? But only if you could comment. >>Well, I would say it zits, two or three different things, but certainly it's an organizational issue. But I think it starts off with a cultural issue. Andi, I think what you're seeing, and if you look at the more progressive companies that you see, I think you are also seeing a new emergence off the enlightened technology leader s O. With all respect to me and my generation, our tenure as the owners off the large enterprise, it is coming to an end. And we grew up trying to master the complexity of the off the silos. As you so definitely pointed out, we were battling this falling technology, trying to get it under control, trying to get the costs down, trying to reduce Catholics. And a lot of that was focused on the partnerships that we had with technology suppliers on DSO. That mindset of being engineers struggling for control. Having your most important part of being a technology company itself that now I think is giving way is giving way to a new generation of technology leaders who haven't grown up with that culture. Onda. Oftentimes what I see is that the new enlightened CEOs are female, and they are coming into the role outside of the regular promotion change. So they're coming to these rolls through finance H R marketing on their bringing. A different focus on the focus is much more about how do we work together to create an amazing experience for our employees and for our customers on an experience that drives value. So I think there's a reset in the culture. And clearly, when you start talking about creating a value chain to improve experience, you're also talking about bringing people together from different multidisciplinary backgrounds to make that happen. >>Well, that's kind of, you know, it makes me think about Amazon's mantra of working backwards. You know, start with the experience and and and a lot of a lot of CEOs that I know would love tow beam or involved in the business. But they're just so busy trying to keep the lights on like you said, trying to manage vendors. And like, you know, I had a discussion the other day, Allen with an individual. We were talking about how you know, you got a shift from a product mindset to a platform mindset. But you know, you've said that that platform thinking you're always ahead of the game platform, thinking it needs to make way for ecosystem thinking, you know, unless you're Internet giant scale business like Amazon or Spotify, you said you're gonna be in a niche market if you really don't tap that ecosystem again. If you could explain what you mean by that. >>I think right now if this movement to experience is fundamental, right? So Joe Pine and Gilmore wrote about the experience economy as far back in 1990. But the things that they predicted then are here now. And so what we're now seeing is that consumers have choice. Employees have choice. I think the pandemic has accelerated that. And so what happens when you, when you when you put an enterprise under that type of external pressure, is that it fragments and even fragment into ways it can fragment dysfunctional E so that every silo tries to go into a a defensive mode protective mode? That's obviously the wrong way to go. But the fragmentation that's exciting is when it fragments into ecosystems that are actually working together to solve an experience problem. And those are not platforms. They're too big, you know, When I was Phillips, I was very enthusiastic about working on this connected health care platform, but I think what I started to realize was it takes too much time. It requires too much investment on you are bringing people to you based on your capability. Where is what the market needs is much more agile than that. So if we look in health care, for instance, and you want to connect patients at home with patient with the doctors in the hospital, in the old model you so I'm gonna build a platform for this. I'm gonna have doctors with a certain competence and they're gonna be connecting into this. And so are the patients in some way. And so are the insurers. I think what you're going to see now is different. We're going to say, Let's get together A small team that understands it's called, For instance, let's get a an insurance provider. Let's get a health care operator. Let's get a healthcare tech company on. Let's pull their data in a way that helps us to create solutions now that that can roll out in 30 60 or 90 days. And the thing that that makes that possible is the move to the public crowd because now there are so many specialized supplier, specialized skill sets available that you can connect to through Amazon through Google, through through azure that that these these things that we usedto I think we're very, very difficult are now much easier. I don't want to minimize the effort, but these things are on the table right now. Thio Revalue. >>So you're also a technologist and I wanna ask you and and everybody always says, it's the technology is easy part. It's the people in the process and, you know, way we can all agree on that. However, sometimes technology could be a blocker. And the example that you just mentioned, I have a couple of takeaways from that. First of all, you know the platform thinking it sounds like it's more command and control, and you're advocating for Let's get the ecosystem who are closest to the problem. To solve those problems, however, they decide and leverage the cloud. So my question is from a technology standpoint, does that echo have system have to be on the same cloud with the state of today's technology? Can it be across clouds can be there pieces on Prem? What's your thinking on that? >>I think I think exactly the opposite. It cannot be monolithic and centralized. It's just not practical because that was that was that would cause you too much time on interoperability and who owns what you see The power behind experience is data. And so the most important technical part of this is dealing with data liquidity. So the data that for instance, um, somebody like Kaiser has or the the Harvard Health Care have or the Philips have that's not going to be put into a central place. But for the ecosystem mobilization, there will be subsets of that data flowing between those parties. So the technical, the heart there is how do we manage data liquidity? How do we manage the security around the data liquidity on How do we also understand that what we're building is going to be ever changing and maybe temporary, because on idea may not work, eh? So you've got this idea that the timeliness is very, very important. The duration is very uncertain. The motor the energy for this is data liquidity data transfer, data sharing. But the vehicle is the combination off. Probably crowd in my mind. >>Somebody said to me, Hey, that data is like water. It'll go. It'll go where it wants to go where it needs to go. You can't try to control it. It's let it go. Uh, now, of course, many organizations, particularly large incumbent organizations there. They have many, many data pipelines. They have many processes, many roles, and they're struggling toe actually kind of inject automation into those pipelines. Maybe that's machine intelligence, uh, really doom or data sharing across that pipeline and and ultimately compress the end and cycle. Time to go from raw data insights that are actionable. What are you seeing there and what's your advice? >>Well, I think the the you make some really good points. But what I hear also a little bit in your observation is you're still observing Enterprises on the end of the focus of the enterprise has been on optimizing the processes within the boundaries of its own system. That's why we have s a P. And that's why we have a sales force and, to some degree, even service. Now it's all been about optimizing how we move data, how we create products and services on. That's not the game. Now that's not an important game. Three important game right now is how do I connect to my employees? How do I connect to my customers in a way that provides them a memorable experience? And the realization is we've seen this already a manufacturing for some years. I can't be allowed things to people. So I have to understand where the first part of data comes in. I have to understand who this person is that I am trying to target. Who is the person that needs this memorable experience on what is that memorable experience gonna look like? And I'm going to need my data. But I'm also going to need the data of other actors in that ecosystem. And then I'm gonna have to build that ecosystem really quickly to take advantage off the system. So this throws a monkey wrench in traditional ideas of standardization. It throws a monkey wrench in the idea that enterprise I t is about efficiency on. But if I may, I just want to come back to the day I because I think we're looking in the wrong places. Things like a I let me give you an example. Today there are 2.2 million people working in call centers around the world. If we imagine that they work in three shifts, that means that any one time there are 700,000 people on the phone to a customer on that customer is calling that company because they're vested. They're calling them with advice. They're calling them with a question. They're calling them with a complaint. It is the most important source off valuable data that any company has. And yet what have we done with that? What we've done with that is we have attacked it with efficiency. So instead of saying these are the most valuable sources of information, let's use a I to to tag the sentiment in the recordings that we make with our most valuable stakeholders on this and analyze them for trends, ideas, things that need to change. We don't do that. What we do is we were going to give every call agent two minutes to get them off the phone. For God's sake, don't ask so many import difficult questions. Don't spend money talking to the customer. Try to make them happy so they get a score and say they hire you at the end of the core and then you're done. So so where the AI and automation needs to come in is not in improving efficiency but in mining value. And the real opportunity with a I Is that Joe Pine says this. If you are able to understand the customer rather than interpret them, that is so valuable to the customer that they will pay money for that. I think that's where the whole focus needs to be in this new teaming of enterprise I t. And that's true business. >>It's a great observations. I think we can all relate to that in your call center example, or you've been in a restaurant. You're trying to turn the tables fast and get you out of there. And that's the last time you ever go to that restaurant and you're you're taking that notion of systems thinking and broadening it to ecosystems thinking. And you've said ecosystems have a better chance of success when they're used to stage an experience for whether it's the employees for the brand and of course, the customer and the partners. >>That's it. That's exactly yet. So every technology leader should be asking themselves what contribution can can my and my organization makes of this movement because the business understands the problem, they don't understand how to solve it, and we've chosen a different dialogues. We've been talking a lot about what cloud could do and the functionality that clown has and the potential that clown has on those aerial good things. But it really comes together now when we work together and we, as the technology group brings in, they know how we know how toe connect quickly through the public cloud. We know how to do that in a secure way. We know how to manage data, liquidity at scale, and we can stand these things up through our, you know, our new learning of agile and devils we can stand. These ecosystems are fairly quickly now. There's still a whole bunch of culture between different businesses that have to work together through the idea that I have to protect my data rather than serve the customer. But once you get past that, there's a whole new conversation enterprise. It you can have that, I think, gives them a new lease of life, new value. And I just think it's a really, really exciting time. Yes, >>so you're seeing the intersection of a lot of different things. You talk about cloud as you know, an enabler for sure, and that's great. We could talk about that, but you've got this what you're referring to before is, you know, maybe you're in a niche market, but you have your marketplace and like you're saying, you can actually use that through an ecosystem to really leave her a much, much broader available market and then vector that into the experience economy. You know, we talk about subscriptions, the AP economy. That really is new thinking, >>yes, and I think what you're seeing here is it zits, not radical. Inasmuch as all of these ideas have been around, some of them have been around since the nineties. But what's radical is the way in which we can now mix and match these technologies to make this happen. That's gone so quickly on, I would argue to you, and I've argued this before. Scale scale is a concept within an organization is dead. It doesn't give you enough value. It gives you enough efficiency, and it gives you a cloud. But it doesn't give you three opportunity to target the niche experiences that you need to do. So. If we start to think off an organization as a a combination off known and unknown potential ecosystems, you start to build a different operating model, a different architectural idea you start to look outside more than you start to look insight. Which is why the cultural change that we were talking about just now goes hand in hand with this because people have to be comfortable thinking in ecosystems that may not yet exist on partnering with people where they bring to the table there, you know, 2030 years of experience in a new and different way. >>Let me make sure I understand that. So you're basically if I understand you're saying that if you're sort of end goal is scale and efficiency at scale, you're you're gonna have a vanilla solution for your customers and your ecosystem. Whereas if you will allow this outside in thinking to come in, you're gonna be able to actually customize those experience experiences and get the value of scale and efficiency. >>Right? So, I mean, Rory Sutherland, who is ah, big finger in the in. The marketing world has always said, ultimately, scale standardization and best practice lead to mediocrity because you are not focused on the most important thing for your employees or your brand, or you're you're focused on the efficiency factors on. They create very little value in fact, we know that they subvert value. So, yes, we need to have a very big mindset change. >>Yeah, You're a top line thinker, Allen. And and always at the forefront. I really appreciate you coming on to the to the Cuban. Participate in this program. Give us the last word. So if you're a change agent, I wanna I'm an organization, and I want to inject this type of change. Where do I >>start? Well, I think it starts by identifying. Are we going to? Is it are we gonna work on the employee experience? Do we feel that we have a model where the employees that are on stage with customers are so important that the focus has to be employees? We go down that route and we look at what happened to the pandemic. What type of experiences are we going to bring to those employees around their ability to have flow in their work, to get returned on energy, to excite the customers? Let's do that. Let's figure out what experience are we driving now? What does that experience need to be if we're the customer side? As I said, let's look ALS. The sources of information that we already have. You know, I know companies to spend hundreds of millions a year trying to figure out what consumers what. And yet if we look in their call centers, you will call up and and they will say to Your call may be recorded for quality purposes and training on this is not true. Less than 10% of those calls that ever listened to on if they are listening to its compliance that's driving that, not the burning desire to better understand the consumer. So if we change that, then we say Okay, so what can we change? What is the experience that we are now able to stage with all we know and with all weaken dio on debts? Start there. Let's start with what is the experience you want to stage? What's the experience landscape look like now? And who do we bring together to make that happen? >>Allen. Fantastic. Having you back in the Cube, it's always a pleasure. And, uh, and thanks so much for participating. >>Thank you, Dave. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. >>Thank you. Everybody, this is Dave Volonte. The Cuban cloud will be right back right after this short break. Stay with

>>live from Atlanta, Georgia. It's the Q covering answerable best 2019. Brought to you by Red hat. >>Hey, welcome back to the Cuban Live coverage in simple fest. Two days of coverage. Day one, wrapping up. I'm John forwards. Accused Too many men. My guest co host today, our next two guests at his van. Van Velzen. Okay, welcome to the Cube. You're an engineer at I n G Bank and Robert de Bock, product owner, engineer I n g. Bank. Hey, guys, Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Have the practitioner on. Well, first of all, we have a lot of great feedback from the practitioners here. And also people in deploying answerable and other other cool Dev ops Tools on automation is at the top of the list. Yes, More efficient. Getting things done. Focus. You got satisfaction in job because things go awaiting time savings. I'm saving security drives a conversation and re skilling opportunities. Love. These are cutting edge. Things you got to do is take a minute to explain what you guys do. What a night. What a night. Angie bank. >>Yeah. I work in a team that provides redhead images for other teams. in 90 to consume to use two insane she ate way. Also live from playbooks, amendable code and rolls to manage those things. And he's very scattered, which sort of decentralized, which is a good thing. In my opinion, it's ready for scaling. In that case, I used to work with Dennis are lots in the tower team, so take it away. >>Okay, so I still work at the answer, built our squad What we do, it's ah, We make sure that the instable tower service keeps running 24 7 and we also ensure that we, uh, provide updates next to all this. We also have unanswerable community where we basically support our end users, which are their love. So, uh, from some numbers, I heard we have 1200 applications teams that are using our service. Um, and they all have, like, answerable playbook, sensible rolls, questions, difficulties with, uh, with anything. And we're basically there to support them as well. >>So 1200 teams are using answerable, Yes, inside the bank. Yes. Yeah, like >>it's set up very decentralized. And I think what I hear from instable fest that is not very common. I still think it's very good thing to do. We try to basically give these teams all the tools they need to do their stuff on. What I hear hear mostly is that there's essential team off administrators pushing the buttons for them. Towers. Great answer was great in that case, I think, for our case is really it's a perfect fit. >>E guess help Explain. Is this do you provide? You know, he said it's not centralized, but is this you know, here's best practices here. Some play boat out. How do you end? You support them? Because they're a little bit those relationships. >>Okay. Okay. Um so what we do is we basically all the rules and get ah ah, good lap. So it's an own premise. Get environment. You can search in this. Get for rules. Uh, not like all rules are easily to be found when searching for them. So that's why there are these communities to share what you have made. Um, >>plus these teams, they can themselves pick and choose. Some will try to rewrite everything That's fine. Others can can benefit from existing coat, so it's just a good trick. Thio enable these team to participate on it really different. Some people make it all themselves another >>next to this. So we basically have these 12 on the teams do their own thing. But next to this, we also have a self service portal where they can choose, like from, uh, generic finks like us. But your machine at new disc. So New capacity Cp use memory. That's all being done through a portal s so they don't need to do anything on their own for this they can, but most of them choose the easy way off using this portal. This portal basically doesn't a vehicle to instable tower, which executes a sensible playbook and some other stuffs. Maybe some AP eyes. And this is one of the things you guys create A manage these books. So, um >>and if you go back in time so the alternative way, which we happily got rid off, is to do it ourselves. I think it was before we we work together. Way had batch weekends, for example, and it >>was no very different. No life. Oh, that's working on weekends, >>weekends and, for example, he used to patch machine some 10,000 or so, and we were not aware what was important. What? Not so you you'd stop the whole pitch. Oh, this machine has a problem. Let's stop everything in focus and that's >>not important. Was like a complete order. >>And the other way around Also this machine. I guess it's not that important. Let's just >>continue this >>Sunday morning. Oh, my God. Everything's broken. >>Can you give us a little flavor of kind of the spectrum of solutions that you leverage answerable on >>tap? Yeah. We, uh I think what we see Moses for Lennox machines, eso fetching is a big one. We got a second operation, so there's a few of them. The deployment also depends on and small. So if you order a new machine, answer was involved somewhere to do to make it happen on network on board and the Windows teams are very interested. I'm not sure if we notice on board yet. To >>be honest, I know we did some book in the boss so a couple of months ago, using wind around when you needed set on policies there, But you can see that the networking teams were getting more momentum. Uh, five. There's some suffer suffer to find switches Bob. I don't know. The, uh Never mind the name, but ah, you can see some momentum in the in the networking. Uh, it's not Morgan departments >>configuration network networking with the activists. So that's where the action is in the >>network. Um, there were some cool talks also here on five workshops. So you can see there is, um, that there is some attention on these modules and integrations as well. >>What's your guy's goal here for the show? What brought you here? I'll see Big user. >>Yeah. So what do you think was like sharing our own thing? We did. They talk this morning. Ah, regarding and programming A really cool we wanted to share. It is this behavioral thing, and and >>we'll talk about take a minute and programming. >>So, um, basically, it's, ah programming with the whole team and making sure that you get something done with all the knowledge in the team. So you don't have to align off the words or if some other if you're Kulik says from basically session, you can do better using this staying. It's all, um it's It's all done during the decision >>as basically a good way to get a team up to speed. So in a team that's probably a few few people that are very quick and understand the concept and few starters or so So >>you guys decentralized, which makes sense for scale. I get that. So this sounds like you can operate decentralized, but where danceable. You can still have that common a book Switch >>teams, for example. So it used to be very specific. H team would have their own type of coat. Now that more answers used people can switch a little easier to to another product of surface because the languages have lied, shared, steal it, steal. It's quite >>well happy with this, right? I am. I really, really have to work on the weekend. That's good. I think >>the good thing is that you have one generic way of working. So his playbook is readable by all engineers. And if you want to learn this thing, you just do the inevitable course. So you know what this thing is? A mosque and roll, and it's all like >>way. We do see horrible >>koto. Come on, don't throw your college under the bus. But here's the international tough question can see is what we have been here. I want you guys to test this. We hear that there's a lot of time savings involved. Yes, with answer. True or false. That's true order of magnitude. What? What kind of saving way talking about? I >>think it depends on the thing because we saw a huge I don't know, except numbers. But this this os patching that Really? Really Uh, >>yes. Now, especially waas. Two people working a full time basically collecting, who needs to do what? The win. And then for a weekend, 10 15 people or so. So, uh, that's reduced now to sort of nothing. Yes, some maintenance to that playbook and roll. But I mean, yeah, it's difficult to express what message? So >>no one's getting phone call? Hey, come in on the weekend. So 15 people on the weekend jam and then to Fulton will just managing it all Go away. >>Yeah, not needed, but not needed. But they basically they can do something else, so those people are still there. But now they're not doing Os patching and doing all the excel sheets and keeping order off. The systems are important, and this shall be the first, and then they because way are basically doing the thing they know better. This application team knows their dependency, so they know they. But first I need to patch the database machine and then there during the front end or Andi. It's difficult to do this so they do it themselves. >>That's Dev Ops. That's that's the way it's supposed to be, right? >>So you've matured this thes deployments over time. As you look back, What key learnings do you have that maybe you'd recommend to your peers toe? You know how things could run a little bit smoother >>next time, a good amount of time. So they're stools. That's not the problem, So answer is great, but there's others to their great Give it time to sink in with the people. So you start something and you have to have a pretty strong team to do the long the long stretch with it and give it some time, maybe a year or so before everyone's on board it. In our case, in the beginning, we spend lots of time on this community model where we basically organized small meet ups or get together, too, show things or to hear problems and try to express them. That really helped a lot. And by now it's starting to get normal, more normal. So all the teams do sensible, basically. And problem starts slowly disappearing. Also. So So >>one of the things, um, that will be better. Probably in our scenario. Housekeeping metrics. So what are the improvements over time? I don't know how to measure this. No, no, no aspect. But it will be better if you had, like, better numbers like we did hair Very good. Or this is something like, what did the community thing bring way indirectly what the results are Because the engineers are doing things really, really things. They're really patching the replication. And they're really, um, restarting their own machines, for example, when there is something wrong. Whatever. Um, but our days related to our community thing or all that's really related to Sensible Tower >>last. I think we we are very technical focus. So So we like it as a nerd, so to say, to do things but what the business value is, for example, I'm not so interested or less interested so way typically, like the technology, so it could be good to have some someone onboard and your team that says, Yeah, but this is the problem. It's crossed. This amount of money and that solved now are improved. >>Well, they assume the applications are doing a good job. So you guys helped those guys out. They get to do their own thing. They do the heavy lifting. They're doing the coding anyway for those guys that were coming in managing full time on the 15 or so on the weekend. What are they doing now? >>Most are spread across. All the application teams go back. But the other side there is now it's our team that was not there s. So that's the price you have to pay. And that's a serious team. I mean, it's far six people now 86 people and 100 machines or so. So it is a serious amount of time, but it makes it at least much more constant. So people are not surprised by machines being patched, and Monday they come back into the half broken or so. So it's a lot more control now, so I don't know if you can express it in price, but at least it's more stable >>more consistent. >>Well, one of the things that we hear here and I want to get your thoughts as we wrap up is as you go forward, you got answerable 1200 teams using it. You got a lot of collaboration. The work cultures change. Sounds like a shower. Team steps service everything else. So some scale building out what's next? Because as it becomes a platform. Okay, you have to enable something. There has value there. Okay, technical nerd value and then business value >>scaling, uh, because we continuously see this thing growing like more application teams are adapting answerable, invincible tower. So, um, right now we have, like, a cluster. We have different clusters running. Go into much detail, but we can see that the load is getting higher and higher, so we need to skill. Um, and this is sort of difficult, but red. That is really supporting in this because they're going to change some things at the application level two to allow scaling even better. Um, >>plus, also, for most teams, they're starting their configuration. Everything is coat process. They're not there yet. As soon as they discover the power of it, I'm sure that's being used a lot. A lot more. And plus, there's other countries that are going to be connected. So you have a lot of work >>because your engineering doing some getting down and dirty with the code, automating everything. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what else do we >>Oh, what's the coolest thing you've done that you've automated? >>Uh >>uh, Pick your favorite. >>So but the child during Encircle Tower and with answerable, um, let me think about this. >>I I really like the patching that saved us so much work. And, uh, I think also one of the next goes to make much more simpler. So we as a company, we're complex and the people also like complexity. That's wrong. We should change >>that. Patching up our >>offense, Melissa Simplicity. So we should really use that. >>You don't want any open holes in the network housely and assistance >>about your previous question. Like I have sort of a finger and all these small things. So it's sort of what I did. It's more like an A team thing. We created the OS patch playbooks, the configure stuff, the second day offs. So we did this as a team >>like sports but the playbooks together run the play. Some defense on security >>and programming. So you're doing >>this as a team, which is very cool. Has a scoreboard look good? Winning? >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're looking at the graphite. Uh, it's girl. >>Final question. How you enjoying the show here? Having a good time? What's the vibe here? What's it like here? Share for the people who aren't here. What's going on? What's the vibe with >>a conversation? It's great. We went to some sessions yesterday really technical stuff with developers. And this was really amazing because you heard details that that are not in the India in the talks today and tomorrow. Um, yeah, it's great. It's great community. It's just I really I really enjoy it because you can. It's You can have, like one on one conversations go into depth. I was showing something I created, and this guy's we'll hold. This is really great in the It's cool. It's just if you it's really great. It's really >>cool. Really? Yeah, for me also, it feels like coming home, So I know these people and I think the first day, the collaboration day, what's it called and I'm not sure you community, that's it's great because it's been a bit rough and unpolished in today's more polished and more presented and prepared to, uh, both are great. >>Good. Give the hard feedback. >>Yeah, you meet all the people. So, for example, I used instable a lot, and then I'm getting up. I see all these names. Like, who would that be there walking here and shake hands like, Oh, that's >>why guys like your code looking good. Yeah. Looks good. A contributor. Summit contributed. Okay. Sorry. After it for >>anyone that goes to visit that day, too. That's just great. >>It's great to see people face to face that, you know, online for their digital identity or the code >>you can You can't complain about stuff out on. Do you know that you don't hurt them or something with just commenting on get like after this issue and this issue and this issue. Then you can see them in person. And then you >>him a high five assault, you know? Hey, >>it's really very cool. >>Guys. Great conversations were coming on cue. Thanks, Dennis. Appreciate Robert. Thanks for coming on. Skew coverage here Day one of two days of live coverage here inside the Cube here in Atlanta, Georgia for Ansel Fest is the cute I'm John 1st 2 minute. Thanks for watching.