absolutely I think if I were to net it out Jeff what I'm sensing is there is a whole movement to shift security left which is this whole idea of IT stepping up as the first line of defense reduce cyber exposure take care of patching multi-factor authentication reduce their tax surface intrinsic security right so you know DevOps active ops take care of it right up front with all the apps even get built right then there is another movement to shift things right which is take care of the new new aspects of the attack surface right what the hackers always take advantage of of other areas where in a sense we are unprepared and for a long time they've seen us being unprepared in terms of reducing the attack surface and then they go after the new aspects of the tak surface and what are those IT I ot ot data as as an attack surface and the edge right so so these are areas where there's a lot of activity a lot of innovation you know on the on the air on the floor here if you walk the corners shifting left shifting right as in all the new aspects of the tax F is I'm seeing a lot of conversations a lot of innovation in that area I think it also boils down to real-world examples we've been really understand the demographics that we're working for I think today it's the first time really in history that we have four generations working side-by-side in the workforce so we have to understand that people learn differently training should be adjusted to the type of people that we're teaching but phishing doesn't just oil down to clicking on links phishing teaches also it boils down to tricking somebody getting someone's trust and it can come in different forms for example think of social media how do people connect we're connecting across social media on many different platforms I'll give a very easy example LinkedIn LinkedIn is for business have form we're all connected on LinkedIn why we connect on LinkedIn because that's a social platform that people feel safe on because we're able to connect to each other in a business form I want to think of the person who's getting the first job with an organization their first job in maybe their project manager and they're working for Bank a excited to be working for Bank a hey I'm gonna list all the projects I'm working for so here's now my resume on LinkedIn I'm working on project ABCD and this is my manager I report to perfect there's some information sitting there on LinkedIn now what else I will tell you is that you might have somebody who's looking to get into that Bank what will they do let's look for the lowest hanging fruit who this new project manager oh I see they're working on these projects and they're reporting in to someone well I'm not a project manager I'm a senior project manager from a competing bank I'm gonna befriend them and tell them that I'm really excited about the work they're doing here there's social engineering their way into their friendship into the good graces into their trust once done the video becomes a trusted source people share information freely so people are putting too much information out there on social trusting too easily opening the door for more than a phishing attack and things are just rapidly going out of control right so my co-founder and I both came from the world of being practitioners and we saw how limited the space wasn't actually changing human behavior I was given some animated powerpoints that use this to keep the Russians out of your Network which is a practical joke unless your job is on the line I took a huge step back and I said there are other fields that have figured this out behavioral science being one of them they use positive reinforcement gamification marketing and advertisement has figured out how to engage this human element just look around the RSA floor and there are so many learnings of how we make decisions as human beings that can be applied into changing people's behaviors and security so that's what we did adventure so this is my first early stage company we're still seeking series a we're a young company but our mantras we are the data value company so they have had this very robust analytics engine that goes into the heart of data I can track it and map it and make it beautiful and Along Came McNeely who actually sits on our board Oh does he and they said we need someone who's this week it's all happening so they asked Scott McNealy who is the craziest person in privacy and data that you know and he said oh my god get the done any woman so they got the den of a woman and that's what I do now so I'm taking this analytics value engine I'm pointing it to the board as I've always said Grace Hopper said data value and data risk has to be on the corporate balance sheet and so that's what we're building is a data balance sheet for everyone to use to actually value data for me it starts with technology that takes look we've only got so many security practitioners in the company actually defend your email example we've got to defend every user from those kinds of problems and so how do I find technology solutions that help take that load off the security practitioners so they can focus on the niche examples that are really really well-crafted emails and and and help take that load off the user because users just you're not going to be able to handle that right it's not fair to ask them and like you said it was just poorly timed that helps protect it so how do we help make sure that we're taking that technology load off identify the threats in advance and and protect them and so I think one of the biggest things that Chris and I talk a lot about is how do our solutions help make it easier for people to secure themselves instead of just providing only a technology technology advantage so the virtual analyst is able to sit on premises so it's localized learning collector has to understand the nature of those strats collect to be able to look at the needles of the needles if you will make sense of that and then automatically generate reports based off of that right so it's really an assist tool that a network in min or a security analyst was able to pick up and virtually save hours and hours of time so we have this we call it a thread research group within the company and their job is to take all the data from the sensors we have I mean we have we look at about 25 petabytes of data every day all our solutions are cloud solutions as well as on forum so we get the benefit of basically seeing all the data's that are hitting our customers every day I mean we block about 1 million attacks every minutes like every minute 1 billion attacks every minute minute right we protect over 3 million databases and you know we've mitigated some of the largest DDoS attacks that's ever been reported so we have a lot of date right that we're seen and the interesting thing is that you're right we are having to always we're using that threat research data to see what's happening how the threat landscape is changing therefore guiding us on how we need to augment and add to our products to prevent that but interestingly we're also consuming AI and machine learning as well on our products because we're able to use those solutions to actually do a lot of attack analytics and do a lot of predictive and research for our customers that can kind of guide them about you know where things are happening because what's happening is that before a lot of the tacks were just sort of fast and furious now we're seeing a pattern towards snow snow and continuous if that makes sense we're seeing all these patterns and threats coming in so we're fighting against those technologies like AI Barossa using those technologies to help us soon you know decide where we need to continue to add capabilities to stop it you know the whole bad box thing wasn't a problem right a number of years ago and so it's it's ever-changing your world which frankly speaking makes it an interesting place to be yes who wants to be in a static in a boring place right well I mean we do you're a good package or a bad package you have to traverse the network to be interesting we've all you know put our phones in airplane mode at blackhat or events like that but we don't want to be on it they're really boring when they're offline but they're also really boring too attackers when they're offline as soon as you turn them on you have a problem or could have a problem but as things traverse the network what better place to see who and what's on your network and on the gear and end of the day we're able to provide that visibility we're able to provide that enforcement so as you mentioned 2020 is now the year of awareness for us so the threat aware network we're able to do things like look at encrypted traffic do heuristics and analysis to figure out should that even be on my network because as you bring it into a network and you have to decrypt it a there's privacy concerns of that in these times but also it's computationally expensive to do that so it becomes a challenge from a both a financial perspective as well as a compliance perspective so we're helping solve s even kind of offset that traffic and be able to ensure your network secure so when we started developing our cyber recovery solution about five years ago we used the NIST cybersecurity framework which is a very well known standard that defines really five pillars of how organizations can think about building a cyber resilience strategy a cyber resilience strategy really encompasses everything from perimeter threat detection and response all the way through incident response after an attack and everything that happens in between protecting the data and recovering the data right and critical systems so I think of cyber resilience is that holistic strategy of protecting an organization and its data from a cyberattack yeah I think the human element is the hardest part you know in mind of this conference and its theme the human element the hardest part about this job is that it's not just mechanical issues and routing issues and networking issues but is about dealing with all types of humans innocent humans that do strange and bad things unknowingly and it's in malicious people who do very bad things that is by design and so the research suggests that no matter what we do in security awareness training some four percent of our employee base will continually bail security awareness that's what we fished and actively and so one of the things that we need to do is use automation and intelligence so that you can comb through all of that data and make a better informed decision about what risks are going to mitigate right and for this four percent are habitually abusing the system and can't be retrained well you can isolate them right and make sure that they're separated and then they're not able to to do things that may harm the organization you

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with co-host this week is John Troyer. I'm happy to welcome to the program, first time guest. It's Anne Bertucio, who is the Kata Containers Community Manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, it's our pleasure and the containers has been a discussion we've been having for a few years now. I remember when we were last year in Vancouver, three years ago that the joke was it was Docker, Docker, Docker year. Tell us a little bit first your role, how long you've been with the foundation, and what you're covering there. >> Absolutely, I've been with the foundation for going on three years at this point. The Kata Containers Project we announced in December. It's come up and come in there as a community manager helping them figure out since December to the launch now, in less than six months we had to figure out how are we going to work together. How are we going to merge two code bases and we have to create a new open source project and new community. So leading that has been a big part of my work. >> So there's a whole track on Containers now. Give us a little bit of flavor for our audience that couldn't be sitting in the keynote and attend all the sessions. What were they missing? >> I think the major theme was security. Mia, she's the PM of security at Google. She opened it up saying containers don't contain. And I almost wished we'd been on a game show. Like containers don't contain. That was the theme of the day and we talked about where did Kata come from? Kata came from how do we answer that question. I think people got so excited about performance and portability about containers. We forgot about security a little bit and now we're seeing some of the ramifications and it's time to make this the year of security. >> So you talk about bringing two code basis together. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the ingredients are here to get to our dish that we finally call Kata Containers Projects? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we have ren-V from Hyper and we had Clear Containers from Intel. And they both looked at things a little differently like Hyper has a fracty implementation that was really critical to their customers. Clear Containers are becoming a little bit from runC Vert containers. And what we arrive at for 1.0 is the OCI compatible runtime is going to put a lightweight VM around your container, and we're thrilled to look beyond 1.0 and to things like supporting hardware accelerators. >> So it may be just to raise it up one level before we go on. How do containers in some sense, let's repeat maybe what you said, see if I get it right. >> Anne: Yeah. >> It's wrapping a container and a lightweight VM. And that gives us the isolation and security that's traditionally associated with a virtual machine with all the APIs and flexibility and performance, and all the other goodness of a container. One container in one VM is the first implementation. >> Yeah, I think the easy way to think about, you're talking about Docker Docker Docker. So in Kata, really instead of using runC as your runtime, we would just say Kata runtime, and now we have our Docker containers but they're wrapped in these light weight VMs each with their own kernel. >> I think back to the early days when we were trying to figure out what these whole containers were and was that the death of virtualization? It was like VMs, gosh they take minutes to spin up, and container is super fast. Security, oh VMs yeah, there's security there but we need to move fast, fast, fast. So explain how this helps bring together the peanut butter and chocolate, if we will? >> Absolutely, oh I love peanut butter and chocolate but that's really what it is. Like you were saying virtualization, yes. Super secure, slow. I think I have a clip art chart with a sad turtle on it. A little bit slower. The container is super fast, we're getting a little nervous about security. I think we maybe see groups and name spaces are good, but people who are enterprise environments. They've been putting full blown VMs around their containers 'cause they were saying well it's not enough. And I need two isolation boundaries, not just one. >> Right, in terms of some of the use cases then. I imagine multitenancy would be one and then perhaps even, I think some of the newest trend defense in depth of even an individual app putting different zones in different components or different risk zones in their own containers, their own VMs. Even inside an individual app just making sure that the different components can only talk to each other in ways that they're suppose to. >> Absolutely, I think it's anytime where you're running untrusted code, or you have questions about what's going on there or you just want a heightened security. Kata is an easy used case then. >> Sure, I guess my VMware call it microsegmentation would be their buzz word on it. >> Oh I got to think about what mine is going to be. >> Or we can all use the same words, it's good. >> So Anne, Intel Clear Containers was a piece of this. Of course Intel partners with everyone there. Give us a little bit also the ecosystem and the team that makes this up. Is this, people out there will be like, oh, well but Docker has their solution and VMware has their solution. How does this fit into the broader ecosystem? >> Our team is incredibly diverse. I've just been thrilled with 1.0. We had 40 contributors from a good diversity of companies. Our architecture committee, it's Google, it's Huawei, Hyper, Intel and Microsoft and I think we've, I was saying in the other note the other day. I was on a call for a architecture committee and we had AMD, ARM and Intel all talking about the same solution. So it's the beauty of open source that we've brought all of these groups together. >> One of the things that also struck us especially if we've been here. The diversity of the show is always really good. The main keynote, it's not oh, did they brought up some people of diversities. Oh no, these are the project leads and therefore they're doing this. Can you touch on some of the diversity and activities at the show itself? >> In terms of technologies, we're looking at or? >> No, I just, so there is, I'm just saying you talked about the community, the diversity of companies as well, the diversity of people. So we've got lots of the women inclusion. >> Oh sure. >> Things like that. >> Yeah, I know we had the executive producer of Chasing Grace was here and I know she's been, Jennifer Clower, is that correct? >> Stu: Yes, Jennifer Clower. We actually interviewed her last week at a different show. >> Oh fantastic. Yeah her document has been incredibly well received. I know she's making the rounds to get the word out there about what's going on with Women in Tech. And we were more than thrilled to host her and have her here and be apart of conversation. >> Clear Community is a big part of OpenStack, the OpenStack Summit and care of the OpenStack Foundation. In terms of Kata Containers, you work for the OpenStack Foundation. Is Kata officially then part of the OpenStack or does that have a different governance model? >> That's a great question. This is an area of confusion because it's the first time the foundation is broken out and there's the OpenStack Project, and there's Kata Containers the Project, but we both live at the OpenStack Foundation. >> John: Okay. >> I think the guiding principles though, and it's really helped us over the last four months is that the OSF, OpenStack Foundation, we believe in open source, open design, open development and open community. And Kata, we were like that's a great home. We believe in that as well. >> Any customers that are yet talking about their early usage of Kata that you can share? >> I think we have a lot of customers from runV and Clear Containers and Kata is going to be their next path forward. So with 1.0 out yesterday, I'm excited to see. We should see some upgrades real soon here. >> What's the path for them to get from where they are to the 1.0? Is that pretty straightforward? >> It should be, yeah, we think so. And they have their support from Intel and from Hyper to help them out with that as well. >> Stu: Okay. >> I was going to ask is Kata Containers, is it integrated in an API or is OpenStack necessary for it or is it independent of, from an infrastructure perspective, OpenStack, the stack? >> Yeah, it's completely independent, but it's also compatible. >> John: Okay. >> You can run on Azure, Google, OpenStack, agnostic of the infrastructure underneath it. >> John: Great. >> Anne, want to give you a final word. Takeaways from the show that you'd want people to have. >> Absolutely, I think the final word is containers are fantastic, it's probably time to take a look at your container architecture. Think about it from a security perspective, and I would encourage everyone to go check out Kata Containers and see if that's the solution for them. >> Anne Bertucio, really appreciate you joining and sharing with us everything happening. It can work with or without the OpenStack Containers. Absolutely a big trend, but security absolutely top of mind from everyone we've talked to. If it's not top of mind of a company, I'm always a little bit worried about them. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco, the Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit and we're covering three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host John Troyer. Our next guest is Jennifer Cloer, creator and executive producer of The Chasing Grace Project, formerly CUBE alumni, was on at the CloudNOW awards at Google. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, thanks for having me. >> So obvioulsy Open Source has been amazing growth, okay, and it has kind of democratized software. >> Right. >> You've got a project in my opinion that I think is democratizing, getting the word out on the tech issues around women in tech and more importantly, it's inspirational, but it's also informational. Take a minute and explain what is the project Chasing Grace? Obviously Grace, Grace Hopper. >> Right. Right, The Chasing Grace Project is a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech. The name does lend itself to Grace. We named it after Grace Hopper because she really exemplifies the grit and the excellence that we're all chasing all the time. It's also this idea that we're chasing the idea of grace in the face of adversity. It's not always easy but the women who we've interviewed and talked to exhibit amazing grace and are super inspiring. So the series doesn't shy away from adversity but it certainly focuses on stories of resilience. >> And when did you start the project and is there episodes? Is it on Netflix? >> Yes. >> Is it on DVD? >> (laughs) Let's hope. We hope so. We started the project, excuse me, about a year and a half ago. I put a call for stories out in a number of women in tech forums I belong to, was inundated with responses. Women are ready to share their stories. Spent every Friday for about four or five months on back-to-back calls with women, produced the trailer last May, a year ago, released it in September, and since then it's been a whirlwind. Lots of interest. Lots of men and women wanting to share their stories, as well as people wanting to underwrite the work, which is fabulous because it relies on sponsors. So yeah, we're about a year and a half in. We just finished episode one and screened it. We've got four or five more to go so we're early. We're early, but it's happening. >> And share some stories because I saw the trailer, it's phenomenal. There's women in tech and the culture of the bro culture, people talk about that all the time. It's male-dominated and you're seeing here with Red Hat Summit, there's women here but it's still dominated by men. >> Right. >> The culture has to evolve and I think a lot of men are smart and see it. Some aren't and some are learning. I would call learning a bigger (laughs) percentage. >> Sure. >> What are you finding that women who are really driving the change has been the big trend line? And how's the men reacting? Because the men have to be involved, too because they also have to take responsibility for the change. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I would say that by women sharing their stories we are starting to change culture. I'm actually keynoting today at the Women's Leadership lunch at Red Hat Summit. I'm going to talk about that, the impact of story on cultural change because there's a lot of reasons cited for the decline of women in tech, because we've gone backwards. There's actually fewer than ever before. But many things are cited. So the pipeline issue, poor education, but the biggest thing cited is the culture and the culture has changed over the course of the last decade in particular. So the women we've talked to, their stories of resilience are starting to change that culture. When people talk and share experiences and stories, there's empathy that comes from both men and women who hear those stories and I think that that starts to change culture. It's starting to happen. I think we are pivoting, it's happening. But there's still a lot of work to do. >> John Troyer: Jennifer, at the keynote, or at the luncheon here, the Women's Leadership luncheon, anything else that you'll be bringing up? That sounds like part of your message here that you're going to be bringing today and you want to share right before you go up? >> Yeah, sure. So like I said, I'll talk about the impact of story on culture. I'll talk about the stories of resilience. I'm going to share a few stories from women who we've actually interviewed and featured in episode one. Because you can't see episode one online because we're in discussions with distributors, I'm going to share those stories with this audience. And I think folks can, like I said, learn from those and gain empathy and walk away hopefully with action. >> That seems great. The storytelling of course is key, right? We're in an interesting place in our culture today and I think social media, the 10 or 20 years of social media that we've had is part of that. I know my feed is filled with incredible women leaders in tech and frankly it's much better for it. But you know, you do sense a sense of almost weariness in some folks because this is one, they get shit on, can I say that? >> Hey, it's digital TV, there's no censorship. >> But also you'd like to eventually, if you're a woman in tech, you'd like to be able to talk about tech, not just being a woman in tech. >> Right, right. >> I guess, is that just at the part, is that just where we are in society right now? >> I think so and you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? It's going to take a long time. It took a long time to get us to this place, it's going to take a long time to move us forward. But yeah, women do want to build tech and not have to advocate for themselves. Hopefully projects like The Chasing Grace Project and other work that's happening out there, there's a lot of initiatives that have sprung up in the last few years, are helping to do that so that the women who are building can build. >> What's your big takeaway from the work you've done so far? It could be something that didn't surprise you that you knew was pretty obvious and what surprised you? What's some of the things that's come out of it that's personal learnings for you? >> I think the power that comes from giving women a platform to be seen and heard for their experiences. Almost every woman I've talked to says I feel so alone. They're in an office with mostly men. There might be another woman but they feel so alone and when they share their stories and they see other women sharing their stories, they know they're not alone. There may be few of them but the stories are very similar. I think that men learn a lot when they see women sharing their stories, too because they don't know. The experiences that we all have are very different. We're walking through the same industry but our day-to-day experiences are quite different. Learning what that's like, both for women, for men, there are men that are going to be featured in this series, and women of other women. Just the power in that. Most women tell me I don't really have a story. Well, you both know that when you dig a little bit, >> They all have stories. >> everybody has a story. Everybody has a story, multiple stories. So, yeah. >> So let me as you a question. This has come up in some of my interviews on women in tech and that is is that it kind of comes up subtlety, it's not really put out there, like you said, aggressively. But they say there's also a women women pressure. So how have you found that come up? Because it's not just women and men. I've heard women say there's pressure, there's other pressures from other women. Do more or do less and it's kind of an individual thing but it's also kind of code, as well to stick together. At the same time, there's a women and women dynamic. >> Yeah. >> What have you found on that? >> Mostly I've found, I think there's a shift happening, mostly I've found that women are forming community and supporting each other. Everyone has a different definition of feminism or womenism (laughs) as some women have called it, but I think there are some women who have told me, usually the older generations who have told me there's only room for one woman at the table. One woman makes it to leadership and she's very protective of that space. But we're seeing that less and less. >> I don't want to turn this into, you hate to turn this into a versus scenario, right? Especially online I see a lot of interaction of men coming up and saying, either trying to explain to women what their problem is or, but also saying educate me, like take your time to educate me because I can't be bothered to figure it out myself. Or also trying to stand up themselves and lead the charge. So one of my personal things I do, I sit back and let the women talk and listen to them about what they want to do. >> Right. >> Any particular advice you have for folks who are listening and who might want to, you know, what do you do? I guess sit down and pay attention. >> Yeah, I'd say listen to the stories. Listen to what women need and want out of their male allies and advocates. And listen to the women who you already are friends and colleagues with. What do they need from you? Start there. And then build your way out. I remember when I first started The Chasing Grace Project, I was actually advised by people, well don't feature men at all because they can't speak for women and that's very true but I've decided that we will feature both men and women because we're all part of the industry, right? When I talk about the future is being built by all of us. We need more women in leadership. We don't need just women in leadership, we need men and women. So I think though, right now at this moment in time men should listen and ask their, like I said, their inside circle of women that are friends and colleagues, what can I do? What do you need in terms of my support? >> And it's inclusion, too. There's a time to have certain, all women and then men, as well. >> Right. >> Kind of the right balance. >> Right. >> Well, I have to ask you obvioulsy, Red Hat is an Open Source world. Community is huge. Obviously tech has a community and some will argue how robust it is (laughs) >> Right. (laughs) >> and fair it is. And communities have their own personality, but the role of the community becomes super critical. Can you just share your thoughts and views of how the role of the community can up its game a bit on inclusion and diversity? And I put inclusion first because inclusion and diversity, that seems to be the trend in my interviews, diversity and inclusion, and now it's inclusion and diversity. But the community has some self-policing mechanisms. There's kind of a self-governance dynamic of communities. So it's an opportunity. >> It is an opportunity. >> So what's your view? >> There are a lot of things that are talked about within the Open Source community in terms of how to advance inclusion in a positive way. One is enforcement. So at events like this, there's a code of conduct. They've become very popular. Everybody has one, for good reason, but everybody's doing them now. I worked at The Linux Foundation for 12 years. When you have an incident at an event, if you don't enforce your code of conduct, it doesn't mean anything. So I think that's one very tangible example of something you can do. We certainly tried at The Linux Foundation, but I remember it was a challenge. If something happened, what was the level of issue and how would we enforce that and address it? So I think the community can do that. I think start there, yeah. >> What's your take on The Linux Foundation, since you brought it up? Lots going on there. >> Right. >> You've got CNCF is exploding in growth. >> Jennifer: Right. >> Part of that, Jim Zemlin is doing a great job. As you look at The Linux Foundation since you have the history, >> Yeah. >> where it's come from and where it's going, what's your view of that? >> My goodness. I was part of The Linux Foundation before it was called The Linux Foundation. It was called Open Source Development Labs, way, way, back. But you know, always impressed with what The Linux Foundation is doing. CNCF in particular is on fire. I watched my social media feeds last week about KubeCon in Copenhagen, a lot of friends there. You know, Open Source is the underpinning of society. If the world we live in is a digital one and we're building that digital existence for tomorrow, the infrastructure is Open Source. So it's just going to become more and more relevant. >> And they're doing a great job. And it's an opportunity with the community again to change things. >> Yeah. >> There's a good mindset in the Open Source community with Linux Foundation. Very growth-oriented, growth mindset. Love the vibe there. They've got good vibes. >> Yeah. >> They're very open and inclusive. >> There's some projects that are really prioritizing. DNI, one of which is Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby Kearns is doing an amazing job there. The Node.js community I think is pretty progressive. So yeah, it's encouraging. >> Abby was on theCUBE. We were there in Copenhagen. >> Right, right. >> Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> What's next for you? Your life's a whirlwind. Take a quick minute. >> Yeah, I'm in Chicago next week for a shoot. We're shooting episode two which is focused on women in leadership roles. There's only 11% of executive positions in Silicon Valley are held by women. So it's a provocative topic because a lot of women haven't experienced that so we want more to do that. >> Well, if you need any men for the next show, John and I will happily volunteer. >> Okay, wonderful. >> To be stand-ins and backdrops. >> Fantastic, thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. It's theCUBE coverage here live, Moscone West in San Francisco for Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

you hi I'm Lisa Martin with the cube on the ground at Google for the 6th annual cloud now top women and cloud awards event and we're very excited to be joined by our next guest jennifer clora the executive producer of the chasing Grace Project welcome to the cube thank you this project is so interesting I was telling you before we went on that I watched the trailer for it and tell us a little bit about the chasing Grace Project what your plans are for this dunkey series being being released and really the the inspiration sure so it's a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech it really talks about the culture of tech the adversities that women face doesn't shy away from those but moves pretty quickly to inspirational stories of women who have navigated a successful path in tech so that other women can learn from those experiences and join us in tech and for those women thinking about leaving maybe inspire them to stay and give them the tools they need to navigate their own paths forward I love that I was very impressed with some of the women that are featured even in the trailer of how honest they were being did you find that they felt either intimidated to share or maybe liberated to say this is what's going on there needs to be voices and faces to it yeah I think there I think women are feeling empowered right now to talk and when they share their stories they're even more empowered by the community of men and women that come around them and give them support so the women that are on camera volunteered to be so I put out a call for stories in a number of places Irish I was inundated with responses I spent four months the beginning of the year interviewing over a hundred women and trying to understand what the collective experience is for women in tech and so these women are not intimidated they're they're powerful amazing women who I am in awe of their courage what were some of the common maybe that the top two or three kind of common challenges that you heard over and over again that women in tech regardless of if they're in marketing like one you and I are or in engineering that they're facing access to opportunity they seem to feel like they hit a wall you know there's the talk about the ceiling but a lot of them talk about they hit a wall that others don't see but all of a sudden they can't go any further a lot of microaggressions that we've all heard and read about dismissiveness being overlooked in medians and for promotions our first episode is on the pay gap we've heard stories about women who have found out their male counterparts are making more than them and the differences and when they confront their bosses and when they don't so a lot of different examples we have some very explicit stories about online harassment there's some of that in the trailer one of the women Cassady shares a really amazing story about that so they vary but certainly it's happening right and we don't want to shy away from that because I think once you acknowledge what's happening and tell those stories you can start to chart the course forward I agree I think that awareness is incredibly important you are also in technology tell me a little bit about your career path in technology did you always aspire to be in tech were you interested in engineering in software or was this sort of a zigzaggy path to where you are now it wasn't a zigzaggy path I went to journalism school and studied communications and my first job out of college was during the dot-com bubble if you will and so I went into tech it was a lucrative you know career path and I fell in love with it at first it was very intimidating because I didn't speak the language but I learned the language and I learned to work with entrepreneurs I've worked with a lot of startups and translating really amazing vision into stories that anyone can understand and so that's been my pathway through tech and I'm grateful to be here and like I said I think one of the one the the mission of the chasing Grace project is to recruit and retain female talent because we as an industry needs you know a diverse workforce but also women need opportunities to these types of careers they're the most lucrative careers in the world and so that economic opportunity for women as individuals and the need that we have in the industry just put underscores the need for these types of stories to be told definitely so we're at the cloud now six annual top women and cloud awards event how did you come to be involved with cloud now and what are some what if some of your perspectives of now being involved with it yeah so I met Jocelyn the founder of cloud now just a few months ago we were introduced through mutual colleagues and she watched the trailer of the chasing Grace project and said you have to come to the event I want to share your project with our community which was so amazing to hear and so I'm super grateful to be here and to be sharing the trailer a little bit later at the event as well as exhibiting for the first time our photo exhibit called persistence that accompanies the documentary so we will host a photo exhibit at every screening of each episode and that will grow over time as more and more women are photographed for the project but the very first showing is here at the event so we were really excited to be able to do that exciting yeah so uses a six-part series correct when can people expect to start seeing episodes so the first episode is is expected around the end of February 18 2018 exactly we're in post-production now on Episode one we shot it a couple weeks ago and we're already planning episode 2 and when our shoot will be in early probably the first two three months of the year so we expect to release episodes every eight to twelve weeks so that people kind of stay connected and and we can bridge episode to episode for example the first episodes on the pay gap the second episode we think may be on female founders and there's a bridge between women who feel like they aren't being paid fairly to wanting to become the owners of their own companies so they can determine their own worth so so we want to make sure there's continuity in the episodes so as you've gone through and and you said interviewed 100 plus women in the last year what are some of the things that inspire you with the chasing grace project that you feel like we're gonna make a difference here yeah I'm inspired by the courage of these women you know there's so much more awareness about women in tech now among both men and women but a lot of times when women speak up they become that women in the office you know that woman who you know is talking and causing trouble and complaining and that's not the case these women are sharing stories that are important for all of us to understand to build a better future through technology so I'm inspired by their courage because it's no small thing to go on camera and talk about your personal story in hopes that it can help other women and help men also be a part of that conversation so I'm inspired by the courage of the women and that's you know I get notes now you know back from women who are part of the project when they see something go live the trailer the photo exhibit today that are just like I'm so excited to be a part of this and I feel empowered and I found my voice I didn't even know I had a story most the time they tell me and they do so I mean I'm inspired by that I love that and it's so great that that they're not intimidated that they are feeling empowered that they have a voice mm-hmm they matter and what they're doing should be valued there should be no differences would be great if we actually get to a world where there aren't it right we're headed there being more attention and eyes to it thank you I'll get there Thank You Jennifer thank you so much for joining my pleasure where can people find once that the episodes go live where can they find the chasing grace episode they can find them at chasing grace film calm we will have an exclusive media partnership or they will also be distributed online but they can always find them on our website excellent well I'm looking forward to watching it I thank you for sharing your story and for inspiring I'll say inspiring me and probably many of our viewers thanks so much thank you for having me I'm Lisa Martin on the ground with the Cuba Google for the cloud now top lemon and clouds award event stick around we'll be right back

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's theCube, covering Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing. Brought to you by SiliconAngle Media. >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of Grace Hopper Conference here in Orlando, Florida, I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have a great panel here today, we have three guests. We have Hilary Burns and Caroline Lester, both Reporting Fellows for the GroundTruth Project, and Tori Bedford, who is a Field Producer for the GroundTruth Project. It's great to have you guys on here. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> So, I'll start with you, Tori, since you were a reporting fellow last year at the Grace Hopper Conference, tell our viewers what the GroundTruth Project is, and what your mission is. >> So, the GroundTruth Project is a non-profit based in Boston and it hopes to encourage young journalists and earlier-career journalists all around the world. So there is a series of fellowships going on, pretty much at all times. Different projects, there's one going across America right now that's looking at, it's called Crossing the Divide, it's looking at divides in America. It's a very divisive time for American politics so they're doing stories about that. And, obviously, we are re-upping our women in tech, women in leadership fellowship this year which we're really excited about. >> And so, each of you are working on your own, individual stories and then you will get back to Boston and produce. So, Hilary, let's hear from you, what are you working on here, what's your topic? >> Sure, so most of my time spend at the Grace Hopper Celebration so far has been spent talking with student about their career aspirations, any barriers they foresee, coming across any concerns they have about entering a male-dominated industry. And it's really been fascinating hearing their stories, some of them are international students, others are from universities all over the world and including Canada and the U.S. So, it's been very inspirational to hear. >> So, but here the ones that are aspiring to careers in technology and they're here at Grace Hopper, but there must be other ones who are too discouraged so they're not here. Are you also getting that angle, too? >> Well, I think it's important for that group of women to see these women who do feel empowered and are, a lot of them use phrases like, "We are making a difference in the gender gap "and if I don't do it, who else will do it?" So, I think it's important for all aspiring technologists to hear these women's stories. >> Are they discouraged, though? Because the headlines are bleak, I mean, we know that it's the numbers, but it's also the Google manifesto, it's the shenanigans of Travis Kalanick and people like him in Silicon Valley. What do they make of that? >> It's interesting, all of them are very intelligent, very aware of what's going on in the world. I've heard a mixed bag of responses from, "I try not to "read too much because I don't want to go in expecting "and having my own biases, I want to see for myself." Others are saying, "Yeah, I am nervous and I want to see "more women creating a path that I can then follow." So, I think there are a lot of people that are optimistically optimistic about their future. >> Cautiously optimistic. >> Thank you. Thank you for correcting me. (laughs) But, it's been interesting to hear all the different perspectives. >> Great, Caroline, how about you, what are you working on? >> Yeah, so, I am personally interested in the more personal stories of some of these women speaking at the conference. I've talked to the four really, wonderful, inspirational women. So, one of my favorites, I've just published a story on her, Chieko Asakawa, who is an IBM Fellow which is the highest honor you can receive at IBM. And she went blind at the age of 11, and has spent her life programming and creating programs and tools to help the blind access the world that is pretty hard to navigate if you don't have eyesight. So, she is super inspirational, super smart, super funny. So, it was a pleasure talking with her. And then I'm talking with three other women, Yasmine Mustafa, who started something called Roar for Good. >> Rebecca: We've had her on the show. >> Oh, you did? >> Yeah. >> Wonderful, great. So, she's fantastic, I'm really glad you covered her. And then another woman named Sarah Echohawk, who, sort of, is an advocate, an activist and is getting more and young, native women involved in STEM. And then, finally, I'll be talking with Stephanie Lampkin of Blendoor, who started this wonderful app to try and overcome the implicit bias, and unconscious bias that happens when people are hiring women or people of color in recruiting for them. >> So she's starting this app that she will then sell to companies, or sell to other recruiters? >> So, she's already started it and she has a lot of major tech companies involved. I think Airbnb uses it, I want to say SalesForce uses it, you're going to have to check me on that one. But she's got about 5,000 people on it right now. >> Wow, so the goal of these stories is to inspire other women by their success. >> Exactly, so these are four radically different women coming into tech in radically different ways and it's just really incredible to see how they've managed to overcome all sorts of obstacles in their way. And not only overcome them, but, sort of, utilize them to their advantage and stake out a place for themselves in this industry. >> Great, Tori, what are the projects that you are working on here? >> So, we've been hearing a lot about diversity, diversity is so important, and we've been hearing about how increasing diversity in a company makes your company better. It just brings in more perspectives, and it also, what's really interesting is that, in tech, it can catch people who have a diverse range of perspectives, can catch problems with products, or with a code, or with something, and how it would be implemented out into the world. I caught this really interesting panel yesterday about disability and looking at how people with disabilities can make companies, specifically tech companies, can help to improve them. This woman, Jennifer Jong, who is an Accessibility Program Manager at Microsoft, she was really interesting. She was talking about how, I wrote a piece on this yesterday, she's talking about how, when you bring people in with a disability, how they can catch things that other people just don't see or wouldn't normally notice. And also how, when we create things for those with disabilities, you know, a lot of things that have been implemented by the Americans with Disabilities Act. She talked about the button that you press to go through the door, how it can also be used by people who don't have disabilities and how it's important to create things that can be used by everybody, but that have inclusion in mind. >> So, why is that true? What is her perspective on why people with disabilities have this special ways to detect blind spots? >> So, if you're creating something, there's no way that you can know how many users are going to be interacting with it, there's no way that you can predict that a person with a disability won't be using it, and so it's diversity, it's really important to bring in different perspectives. So, they had talked about a video, a really beautiful, promotional video that showed a range of visuals, it was very effective but it had no sound and a blind person wouldn't get anything out of it. And so, it's like looking at a product, you need somebody to be in the room, just like you want women and people of color and a range of ethnicities, you want diversity, you want someone to be able to say, "This isn't going to work for me, this isn't going "to work for my child, this isn't going to work "for a range of people." And that's a really effective and important thing that ultimately saves your company's bottom line, because then, you won't have to go back and change your product in the future. >> And fix it, fix it as a problem. >> Right, you'll spend more money fixing your product than you would if you had just talked about, had inclusion and diversity, if you'd just considered that from the get-go, you'll ultimately save your company more money. >> So, the question for the three of you, really, is that as you said, we hear so much about the importance of diversity and of getting a variety of perspectives, and having people of different genders, and races, and cultures feel included and having a voice at the table, I just want to know, I mean, do companies really feel this way or is that what they say at Grace Hopper because this is what makes sense to say to their target audience? >> It's totally possible that it's just a marketing ploy, it's totally possible that they're realizing that half the population makes money and can do things, and that makes more money. I mean, a lot of tech is driven by the bottom line, it's driven by financials, but in the case of the disability thing, it's like, it almost doesn't matter. It is not only the right thing to do, if you need a financial incentive, that's not good. Obviously, it's the right thing to do so you should be doing it for that reason, but if you do also have a financial incentive, that's not bad. And if we're, sort of, driving more towards empowering women and giving women a voice and allowing women to do things and taking them seriously, ultimately that's not a bad thing. >> And just to add to that, I think there is a lot of research out there today, for example, having more women on corporate boards, that that does impact the bottom line and, obviously, that's what companies are most concerned about. So, I think that companies are starting to realize that having that diversity and inclusion is good for business as well as a marketing ploy. >> And I think, I mean, just to add, I also think that, you know, whether or not this is a good thing, I think companies do realize that that is important. And they're realizing that it's necessary, I don't know, it's necessary to impact the bottom line and that is something that, whether or not we like it, it is the most convincing factor for many of these companies. >> I think it's also, when you have women moving up to positions of power, to the C-Suite, to positions of leadership, they understand that women are people with skills and they are the ones who are, you know, hiring more women, and that ultimately helps the bottom line. So, as you have more and more women moving higher and higher to the top, that's when, like when we talk about the companies changing, that's because women are changing. And they're changing the perspectives of men and everybody else in between that works at the company. >> Are women changing? I mean, I think that's a question, too, is that we're all as collectively as a society, becoming more aware that these biases exist in hiring and recruitment practices. But, I think that's the question, are women starting to change, too, the way they behave in the workplace, the way they go about managing their careers? >> I know it's changing minds, like other peoples' minds. >> That's a really interesting question, though. One student I talked to who was from India, talked about the gender discrimination she has faced. And she said she did change how she acted, she shut down all emotions, she took any emotion out of her responses because her colleagues would say, "Oh, you're a woman, "you're so emotional," and she was tired of that. So, it's an interesting question to look at. I don't know, I don't have the data in front of me but it would be interesting to look into that. >> Yeah, great, that's the next GroundTruth project. Excellent, well Hilary, Caroline, Tori, thanks so much for being on theCube, we've had great fun talking to you. >> Yes, thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> We will have more from the Orange County Convention Center, the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing, just after this. (upbeat music)

>> (upbeat music) Live from Boston Massachusetts. It's theCube! Covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> It is day three of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston Massachusetts. I'm Rebecca Knight. Along with Stu Miniman. We are wrapping up this conference Stu. We just had the final keynote of the morning. Before the cameras were rolling, you were teasing me a little bit that you have more scoop on the AWS deal. I'm interested to hear what you learned. >> (Stu) Yeah, Rebecca. First of all, may the fourth be with you. >> (Rebecca) Well, thank you. Of course, yes. And also with you. >> (Stu) Always. >> Yeah. (giggles) >> (Stu) So, day three of the keynote. They started out with a little bit of fun. They gave out some "May The Fourth Be With You" t-shirts. They had a little Star Wars duel that I was Periscoping this morning. So, love their geeking out. I've got my Millennium Falcon cuff links on. >> (Rebecca) You're into it. >> I saw a bunch of guys wearing t-shirts >> (Rebecca) Princess Leia was walking around! >> Princess Leia was walking around. There were storm troopers there. >> (Rebecca) Which is a little sad to see, but yes. >> (Stu) Uh, yeah. Carrie Fisher. >> Yes. >> Absolutely, but the Amazon stuff. Sure, I think this is the biggest news coming out of the show. I've said this a number of times. And we're still kind of teasing out exactly what it is. Cause, partially really this is still being built out. There's not going to be shipping until later this year. So things like how pricing works. We're still going to get there. But there's some people that were like "Oh wait!' "Open shift can be in AWS, that's great!" "But then I can do AWS services on premises." Well, what that doesn't mean, of course is that I don't have everything that Amazon does packaged up into a nice little container. We understand how computer coding works. And even with open-source and how we can make things server-less. And it's not like I can take everything that everybody says and shove it in my data center. It's just not feasible. What that means though, is it is the same applications that I can run. It's running in OpenShift. And really, there's the hooks and the API's to make sure that I can leverage services that are used in AWS. Of course, from my standpoint I'm like "OK!" So, tell me a little bit about how what latency there's going to be between those services. But it will be well understood as we build these what it's going to be use for. Certain use cases. We already talked to Optim. I was really excited about how they could do this for their environment. So, it's something we expect to be talking about throughout the rest of the year. And by the time we get to AWS Reinvent the week after Thanksgiving, I expect we'll have a lot more detail. So, looking forward to that. >> (Rebecca) And it will be rolled out too. So we'll have a really good sense of how it's working in the marketplace. >> (Stu) Absolutely. >> So other thoughts on the key note. I mean, one of the things that really struck me was talking about open-source. The history of open-source. It started because of a need to license existing technologies in a cheaper way. But then, really, the point that was made is that open-source taught tech how to collaborate. And then tech taught the world how to collaborate. Because it really was the model for what we're seeing with crowdsourcing solutions to problems facing education, climate change, the developing world. So I think that that is really something that Red Hat has done really well. In terms of highlighting how open-source is attacking many of the worlds most pressing problems. >> (Stu) Yeah, Rebecca I agree. We talked with Jim Whitehurst and watched him in the keynotes in previous days. And talked about communities and innovation and how that works. And in a lot of tech conferences it's like "Okay, what are the business outcomes?" And here it's, "Well, how are we helping the greater good?" "How are we helping education?" It was great to see kids that are coding and doing some cool things. And they're like, "Oh yeah, I've done Java and all these other things." And the Red Hat guys were like, "Hey >> (Rebecca) We're hiring. Yeah. (giggles) >> can we go hire this seventh grader?" Had the open-source hardware initiative that they were talking about. And how they can do that. Everything from healthcare to get a device that used to be $10,000 to be able to put together the genome. Is I can buy it on Amazon for What was it? Like six seven hundred dollars and put it together myself. So, open-source and hardware are something we've been keeping an eye on. We've been at the Open Compute Project event. Which Facebook launched. But, these other initiatives. They had.... It was funny, she said like, "There's the internet of things." And they have the thing called "The Thing" that you can tie into other pieces. There was another one that weaved this into fabric. And we can sensor and do that. We know healthcare, of course. Lot's of open-source initiatives. So, lots of places where open-source communities and projects are helping proliferate and make greater good and make the world a greater place. Flattening the world in many cases too. So, it was exciting to see. >> And the woman from the Open-Source Association. She made this great point. And she wasn't trying to be flip. But she said one of our questions is: Are you emotionally ready to be part of this community? And I thought that that was so interesting because it is such a different perspective. Particularly from the product side. Where, "This is my IP. This is our idea. This is our lifeblood. And this is how we're going to make money." But this idea of, No. You need to be willing to share. You need to be willing to be copied. And this is about how we build ideas and build the next great things. >> (Stu) Yeah, if you look at the history of the internet, there was always. Right, is this something I have to share information? Or do we build collaboration? You know, back to the old bulletin board days. Through the homebrew computing clubs. Some of the great progress that we've made in technology and then technology enabling beyond have been because we can work in a group. We can work... Build on what everyone else has done. And that's always how science is done. And open-source is just trying to take us to the next level. >> Right. Right. Right. And in terms of one of the last... One of the last things that they featured in the keynote was what's going on at the MIT media lab. Changing the face of agriculture. And how they are coding climate. And how they are coding plant nutrition. And really this is just going to have such a big change in how we consume food and where food is grown. The nutrients we derive from fruit. I was really blown away by the fact that the average apple we eat in the grocery store has been around for 14 months. Ew, ew! (laughs) So, I mean, I'm just exciting what they're doing. >> Yeah, absolutely right. If we can help make sure people get clean water. Make sure people have availability of food. Shorten those cycles. >> (Rebecca) Right, right. Exactly. >> The amount of information, data. The whole Farm to Table Initiative. A lot of times data is involved in that. >> (Rebecca) Yeah. It's not necessarily just the stuff that you know, grown on the roof next door. Or in the farm a block away. I looked at a local food chain that's everywhere is like Chipotle. You know? >> (Rebecca) Right. >> They use data to be able to work with local farmers. Get what they can. Try to help change some of the culture pieces to bring that in. And then they ended up the keynote talking more about innovation award winners. You and I have had the chance to interview a bunch of them. It's a program I really like. And talking to some of the Red Hatters there actually was some focus to work with... Talk to governments. Talk to a lot of internationals. Because when they started the program a few years ago. It started out very U.S.-centric. So, they said "Yeah." It was a little bit coincidence that this year it's all international. Except for RackSpace. But, we should be blind when we think about who has great ideas and good innovation. And at this conference, I bumped into a lot of people internationally. Talked to a few people coming back from the Red Sox game. And it was like, "How was it?" And they were like, "Well, I got a hotdog and I understood this. But that whole ball and thing flying around, I don't get it." And things like that. >> So, they're learning about code but also baseball. So this is >> (Stu) Yeah, what's your take on the global community that you've seen at the show this week? >> (Rebecca) Well, as you've said, there are representatives from 70 countries here. So this really does feel like the United Nations of open-source. I think what is fascinating is that we're here in the states. And so we think about these hotbeds of technological innovation. We're here in Boston. Of course there's Silicon Valley. Then there are North Carolina, where Red Hat's based. Atlanta, Austin, Seattle, of course. So all these places where we see so much innovation and technological progress taking place here in the states. And so, it can be easy to forget that there are also pockets all over Europe. All over South America. In Africa, doing cool things with technology. And I think that that is also ... When we get back to one of the sub themes of this conference... I mean, it's not a sub theme. It is the theme. About how we work today. How we share ideas. How we collaborate. And how we manage and inspire people to do their best work. I think that that is what I'd like to dig into a little today. If we can. And see how it is different in these various countries. >> Yeah, and this show, what I like is when its 13th year of the show, it started out going to a few locations. Now it's very stable. Next year, they'll be back in San Francisco. The year after, they'll be back here in Boston. They've go the new Boston office opening up within walking distance of where we are. Here GE is opening up their big building. I just heard there's lots of startups when I've been walking around the area. Every time I come down to the Sea Port District. It's like, "Wow, look at all the tech." It's like, Log Me In is right down the road. There's this hot little storage company called Wasabi. That's like two blocks away. Really excited but, one last thing back on the international piece. Next week's OpenStack Summit. I'll be here, doing theCube. And some of the feedback I've been getting this week It's like, "Look, the misperception on an OpenStack." One of the reasons why people are like, "Oh, the project's floundering. And it's not doing great, is because the two big use case. One, the telecommunication space. Which is a small segment of the global population. And two, it's gaining a lot of traction in Europe and in Asia. Whereas, in North America public cloud has kind of pushed it aside a little bit. So, unfortunately the global tech press tends to be very much, "Oh wait, if it's seventy-five percent adoption in North America, that's what we expect. If its seventy-five percent overseas, it's not happening. So (giggles) it's kind of interesting. >> (Rebecca) Right. And that myopia is really a problem because these are the trends that are shaping our future. >> (Stu) Yeah, yeah. >> So today, I'm also going to be talking to the Women In Tech winners. That very exciting. One of the women was talking about how she got her idea. Or really, her idea became more formulated, more crystallized, at the Grace Hopper Conference. We, of course, have a great partnership with the Grace Hopper Conference. So, I'm excited to talk to her more about that today too. >> (Stu) Yeah, good lineup. We have few more partners. Another customer EasiER AG who did the keynote yesterday. Looking forward to digging in. Kind of wrapping up all of this. And Rebecca it's been fun doing it with you this week. >> And I'm with you. And may the force... May the fourth be with you. >> And with you. >> (giggles) Thank you, we'll have more today later. From the Red Hat Summit. Here in Boston, I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. (upbeat music)

from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VM world and its ecosystem sponsors now your host Stu minimun and Brian Grace Lee Patrick Shanna's on for a member of the technical staff for dr. Patrick saw you at the end of our spring tour and now you're here at the you know picking up the fall tour so thank you for joining us again hey thanks for having me alright so I mean last year you know containers with VMware I mean was a big discussion we kind of all had that you've got some background with Microsoft right and VMware yeah and VMware so you know there was kind of a joke of you know oh the old Microsoft you know extend embrace and we'll see how we go from there but you know it's been a year later so can you give us a little bit of the update of kind of you know how docker in VMware how do you guys see each other I could evm where is a great partner you so the announcement this morning VMware embrace containers so I'm super excited to be here some of the announcements that were made this morning is now this year is a control plane for containers there's this notion of native containers in this year one of the things that excites me the most is their project bonville that they talked about this morning it's actually been made by one of my friends on the ex-colleagues banchory and what they're doing in there that they are implemented the back end for the darker engine in terms of these fear primitives so when you're creating images it creates a set of vmdk layers and when you're creating when you want to create a container the isolation primitives are the ones of VMS as opposed to linux containers all right so that's a very good way of running container yes sir patrick last time we're in the cube you did a great job of helping us you know kind of walk the stack I don't know if you saw we actually did a research piece kind of layering the whole stack so here the announcement you mentioned this morning is the vSphere integrated containers and they've got photon and they've got Bonneville on and let me ask you am I looking at this right that we're VMware I mean VMware very much down at the infrastructure level yeah so when they build that photon layer you know whether they call it just enough virtualization as Kate kolbert said this morning when I heard him speak um but dr. sits on top of that am I getting that right yeah it's exactly right and actually one of my reasons for joining VMware I think four years ago was for them to go up stack and at that time it was with cloud foundry and I would argue that maybe with cloud foundry we were a little bit too much up stack compared to my vm worries at the bottom when I present the whole stack usually I talk about like the new hardware the new hardware today is your cloud provider it's a Amazon Microsoft Google and then the virtualization with VMware so that's the new hardware and that's where vmware is very strong so they manage networking storage and compute on top of that you have the OS layer and what really got me interested into moving to darker is that the whole landscape just changed when containers appear two years ago and the whole industry is reorganizing around that so what happened at the OS layer that all the OS providers starting with chorus initially who studied that friend started doing minimal release of their OS that are just designed to run containers so coral I started that trend but then very quickly read had followed with project atomic and then we went to with winter core the most interesting to me is Ranchero s where they run docker for everything so they have two darker system darker and userland occur and then VMware came out with photon I think twas last June or something like that and today I think they have a preview to of that coming out on top of that you have ducker so the rocker engine running and on top of the darker engine you have orchestration platforms and these are the ones that are replacing what used to be past platform as a service and when I was at Google I was doing google appengine at vmware i was doing cloud foundry now you see cloud foundry reinventing itself as a control plane for containers and so one of the announcement that excited me most in the keynote this morning is that now Cloud Foundry is running with photon they have an integrated distribution so finally vmware is going up stack with its own stack like vSphere at the bottom then on top of that you have photon and then on top of that you have cloud foundry yeah so really exciting times yeah I think for me one of the things that I always hear that feels like it's confusing or off the markets a lot of people want to kind of get into this containers replaces VMs or VMs versus container debate and as if they're both sort of infrastructure layer which if you think about them is something that holds that I could see you make the mistake but but Dockers is something that developers love they love to package their applications they love this idea of right on my laptop push it somewhere do you find that confusion a lot in the marketplace I mean oh yeah I find that a lot and I think it's tied to the rise of DevOps it really in the past five years the this new movement called DevOps like really took off and DevOps is a lot about people and processes a little bit about products as well and I think when docker appeared it was the right level of abstraction for DevOps to happen like the right packaging construct where developers can put all their dependencies in a container and then ups have all the right knobs to tweak for putting that in production but it's the same thing that you put in production that you have on your developer machine so to me a lot of the confusion assoc d2 docker is tied to that because it's a technology that you use both by developers and by ops I think vmware is doing a really good job of giving up so kind of control they need to put darker in production yeah so we're here at vmworld a lot of talk about vmware in containers you guys doing a ton of stuff with Microsoft like yeah talk a little bit about because you know for a long time people like to say what containers have been along for on for a long time Linux containers and but but windows and microsoft adopting this like what's going on there yeah so the partnership with Microsoft is super exciting so after a VMware I actually moved to Microsoft and at Microsoft my role was to help all the darker partners to get onto Azure and since I join I've seen all the work that happened with microsoft recently we've done tons of stuff we end many many different integration points to me the most important one is finally we have native windows containers that shipped with a Windows Server tv3 like literally I think two weeks ago so that's something that was pre announced that dark on and my croissan'wich came onstage with the ducati sure to do a demo now you can run it on Azure yourself what's exciting there is that the concepts that are at the heart of docker are based on using c groups and name spaces which are linux kernel features for isolation of your workloads the thing is these isolation primitive similar ones existed in windows server and especially the version of Windows Server that was running within Microsoft data center for to power Bing and things like that to have denser workloads in the data center where the Microsoft team has done is that they re implemented the darker back end in terms of windows containers primitives and so now you can create Windows net application running on windows server in windows native containers the beauty of it if you're a developer especially an enterprise developer in the enterprise basically you have half and half Java and.net very often like developers go from one to the other or they are developers who do Java others doing dotnet they have completely different tool chains now with darker they have a single tool chain that they can use to build a multi container application that use different technologies behind the scene so finally developers can use the best tools for the father father job yep so pattern one of the things we look at every year here at vmworld is how are we doing it kind of fixing the things that broke when virtualization went into both storage and networking yeah and it was big discussion point at dr. Khan this year you put up a beta of docker networking yep storage I'd say is even a little bit you know further behind there so you know what's the latest on how you guys think of that you know where are we along that maturity curve of you know storage and networking for for containers so I'm really glad you asked that because when i joined occur in march that was my first project to kick-start a project to do darker extensibility and the two extension points that we created based on ecosystem and customer demands were about storage and networking and so I'd acha kaun in June we announced to extension points for dr. a plug-in system one for networking and one for volumes and what I really love about what happened at vmworld today this morning in the keynote is that VMware implemented a networking plug-in based on NSX as well as a volume plug inning in collaboration with a cluster HQ who had built flutter and help us create that extension point four volumes so finally one of the big issues with containers is that when you were deploying it in a multi host set up especially with swarm and compose when you're stunning to the orchestration before June there was no way to to move one container when state full container with data to another machine with a volume plug-in now you can do that and with the networking aspect now you can refer to containers by instead of like doing links and there were some complicated ways to do that now you can use either the native networking driver that comes with ducker but as usual we use the philosophy of batteries included but replaceable and so you can plug networking plug-in coming from nsx if you're using this fear under the hood yeah so still we're we're going to be doing a panel tomorrow on on containers one of the things I want to dig into we're gonna have intel on the show and tells doing some neat things where they're they're calling it clear containers but in essence it's it's kind of the equivalent for the vm we're proud of you know VT technology right hardware isolation of processes talk about just what's the potential of that for containers ability to better leverage hardware to make containers a it's faster and yeah so that aspect of internal research is super exciting and it corroborates some of the things i see happening in the marketplace right now especially on the research side where you have both like Linux containers became super successful in the past two years now that we're going in production there will be lots of different type of isolation technologies applied to containers and so one of the first one I heard about West project banville where it's implemented in terms of this year primitives another one is the clear container by Intel another one that I heard about that that came through the oci project that will talk about that new standard that we announced a cocoon is called is called things of run V and it's based on the hyper SH container technology based on virtualization so I see more and more people using virtualization as an implementation for isolation in containers yeah talk about what's going on with run see so you know six months ago it was we had this you know are we gonna have diverging container standards you guys stood up with core OS and 20 other companies and said we're no we're going to have one standard what's going on with with oci and run c and that thing that's been super exciting so that was my second project that docker we announced it at Daka Connie you that we had a 20 of the biggest companies in the industry joining to create a standard container especially core OS joining as well as Google and Amazon and everybody and what blew my mind is that we're what were free month later less than three months later the team right now is preparing a first draft of the spec for September they've been working actively all throughout the summer we put out we started working on the spec just after dark on we had the darker contributor summit and the the working group for OC I was the largest we had like 15 people from different companies starting to iterate on the spec they continued throughout the summer and now we have something that's close to a first draft of the spec with a reference implementation that's runs in one of the most interesting development that happens there and that really speaks to the power of open source and open stone is is that once the specs started to mature we started to have already a second reference a second implementation of the spec that's called rungy that's been built by the hyper SH project based on virtualization and then why way contributed a test suite for compliance of the of the spec so that spec is advancing really fast yeah so I was having a conversation with Jim's emmalin who runs the Linux Foundation II week or so ago at linux con and we asked him we said you know it's hard because you love them all like your kids do you have a favorite project he said yeah no question oci is my favorite project right now just because of the promise of portability the sort of write once run anywhere so you're working on it it's an important product the Linux domain is really looking at you guys to make this work and and drive that portability yeah and the Linux Foundation has done a really great job at coordinating the work of all the maintainer Xin there it's really a neutral ground where we can advance so that all of us can innovate on top of it now a lot of the competition is happening at the upper layer of the stack like oci I think we all agree on the semantics of what a container runtime should be now at the higher level there are lots of discussions about how the orchestration should be done and there you have 15 different projects you have swarmed from darker this mess those this coup banaras which is very opinionated and one of the other development this summer is that Google and many others including us dr. with part of that announced an another foundation called the CNC F the cloud native computing foundation where the goal there is to create reference tax for orchestration that can interoperate together pretty much along the same line of the work that darker did with a mesosphere for having a swarm plugin for mezclas so Patrick boy there's been so much movement in this space we talked multiple foundations a lot going on one of the things we came out of dr. Khan that we were just I guess a little concerned about is how many people actually run an import and we know you know I mean live through the the VMware lived through the Linux you know adoption phases so is it fair to kind of gauge that piece of it you know what do you see when you know you're talking to the practitioners and the you pick users out there as to you know how should we be measuring you know that's a naturally occurring production yeah so I would say it's maturing a lot we see more and more users putting darker in production there are lots of holes still in the offering that needs to be filled and that's why I'm pretty excited to see VMware stepping in and saying hey for production use we have a lot of technology that you can use to put that in production some of the things that we've seen is a like networking and volumes so that was really needed now that there are lots of plugins I hope that people will have an easier time putting that into production the agreement on what orchestration should be so people are still asking a lot of question about which orchestrator should i use for my containers in production and so I've seen so people using measures others using coronary some are trying swarm there's still lots of questions out there about what the right stack should look like and I would say as usual in software project it kind of depends on what you're running well the one thing that concerns me and it's always there's so many good things going on around docker I've been doing some research over the last couple of months looking at all the different platforms so everything from you know dr. native to what hoshi corp is doing to what openshift is doing and we were we talkin to Adrian Cockroft he said you know dockers reached sort of plaid in terms of speed it moves so fast you guys are releasing some every two months how do you deal with that because you deal with the ecosystem how do they deal with the fact that you're now part of their core platform but you're releasing new stuff every two months I mean are we going to get into something where it's like well it's it's one dot six and two dot one and how do you deal with that yeah so ducker itself as a company is maturing addict Akane you one of the big things that we announced is a darker trusted registry and aqus yes so we have a version of docker that is supported where we're going to do backwards a porting of patches so for people who really want to run it in production we have an offering that supported for them so that they are not obliged to run on the tape every time some of the startups that I've seen out there like large startups with a more in the consumer space who have larger data center and a pretty mature ops team they some of them are running on tip or on the latest version of darker but in the enterprise you can assume that like the adoption of new versions will be slower and so we have that like support offering for for all the versions of darker now the darker open source project is continuing to fire I like to create lots of things and there are lots of poor request the project is more successful than ever I think in the last like recently the most prolific contributor was Microsoft in the project there are lots of torrid has a huge contributor that Google as well is sending lots of pull requests so there are not lots of new features coming with each new release but at the same time we're really working on a platform that everybody is going to use and that needs to mature that's why you have that really fast pace of innovation in that space yeah so I mean Patrick here you're you're in the weeds of some of this so the other one that comes up quite a bit of courses security so even just this last week there's a big back and forth on Twitter and a couple of blog posts talking about it you know what what your thought is to how how we should talk about kind of the maturity and where we're going with the container security discussion yeah so as you guess container security is one of our big focus abductor because that's one of the things that people are expecting from a platform especially to run in production my colleague yoga Monica did lots of blog posts recently about how to improve your security in production security is not only a factor of the software itself but on the all the processes that you put in place around it and basically around darker you have to put in place with some kind of processes you have for operating systems like getting the latest release of the official images I don't know if you saw that there's been a blog post like talking where they looked randomly at all the images in docker hub and evaluating them for security issues one of the things that they didn't look at is that the latest releases of operating systems that we have in there in blocker images are just tracking the upstream releases and people who have sound security practices internally I'll just pulling these latest releases all right last question I have for you Patrick it's it easy for people to come I come in here and be like oh well you know biggest threat to vmware is is docker what what I love talking to you is you know this is a real small community I over the last year a lot of former VMware people now working over a doctor and not that they're unhappy with VMware and you know Microsoft is is in the mix you know so I mean this whole community is pulling together and doing a lot of work a lot of contribution you know what do you see out there from the technology community to help mature this whole space yeah I'd say both VMware and Microsoft at the operating system an infrastructure level as well as Google at the orchestration layer VMware a red hat at the operating system layer like everybody is trying to make darker a sound platform to run in production so what I see in all corners is just darker getting solidified and getting part of most people's production infrastructure with all these efforts on the security and stability and processes as well as the development processes there are lots of innovation in the terms of CI CD integration with darker no no she saw the work that cloudbees has been doing for integrating jenkins with darker so doctor is both the platform for apps and for devs and in that in that qualification that the ecosystem is very broad both on the dev tools side as well as on the ops and platform side all right well Patrick unfortunately at a time is always great chatting with you thank you so much for joining us we'll be back with lots more coverage here from being real 2015 and thank you for watching you inseam six months you