>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation. And its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here in Copenhagen Denmark this is KubeCon 2018 Europe, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Tyler Jewell, he's the CEO of WSO2 with some big news, they're introducing a new programming language called Ballerina. Welcome to theCUBE thanks for joining us! >> Hey thank you for having me. >> So you're now the new CEO of WSO2, couple months almost a year. You guys have big news introducing a new programming language called Ballerina here. Tell us a bit about what this is. What's the big story? >> Well Ballerina is our approach to addressing the integration gap, which is what happens when integration products like ESB's are not agile, and programming languages make integration difficult. This is a language and a platform that have been co-designed together to be both integration simple, and agile. >> So take a step back how did you get here? Talk about what WSO2 is, and then why the motivation to do the language? What are some of the specific details, and how long have you been working on it? Take a minute to explain what the situation is. >> Well WS02 is a company that's been around for 13 years, we have 550 employees and we have about 500 customers, and we make integration software. These are things like message brokers, data mediation, and we do this for large scale projects around the world. And all of our technology is open-source. Now we power roughly five trillion transactions a year around the world, and we've done thousands of integration projects and what we've found is that they are all still waterfall development. You have to plan these things long in advance, it requires huge teams, and there's no decentralization of the work. And we need to make integration agile again. And in order to do that we needed to basically rethink the entire approach to the way that integrations are done. And we put it into a programming language so that we can do compile time abstractions that generate distributed system primitives. >> It's almost like you're solving your own problem, probably the frustration must have been all imagined. Another waterfall project again coming back, again and again repeating it, with Cloud the time to market is one of the key value propositions. Integration obviously with Kubernetes, workflows, and also portability is a big concern. What are some of the things that are driving that demand right now in your mind? Is is speed is it the tech demand for applications, what's the key? >> I think that what we're seeing is, really sophisticated and complex demand coming from kind-cuser consumers. Companies like Uber Slack and Amazon have witnessed this. And in order to scale to meet this complex demand, these organizations have had to create architectures that are highly disaggregated. And infrastructure like Kubernetes facilitates that disaggregation of architecture. Now when we saw the API economy, this was one form of disaggregation but now we've got microservices and serverless which are tenexing that. And as you disaggregate your architecture, you're going to have an explosion of programmable endpoints. There are 50 billion right now. The forecasts are that it's going to go to well over a trillion. And when that happens, integration is the glue that brings these things together. Integration is going to be the next generation problem that we have to deal with. >> Totally right I was just going to say glue layer, but you mentioned glue. Folks are getting out of the keynote right now, the CloudNative Foundation. Pretty massive growth, look at the logosly he sponsors. Just the amount of companies now joining. It seems like a land grab on one hand, but it's really the market just driving it. And it's coming down to this notion of glue layers, where with open-source it's about really taking pre-existing code, and then figuring out how to abstract that, make it simpler, create security, these are all operating system kind of questions. >> Well I think also it's open right? I mean that is part of the key here, it's the fact that it's open-source. And I think you guys are the last independent type of company that is actually doing this from an open-source perspective, is that right? >> Yeah we are the seventh largest open-source company, all the software that we publish is Apache License, and we found a way to monetize open-source without having to play open core games, where there's proprietary stacks on top of that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> What's the licensing concerns that you're seeing with Apache versus other foundations, where are developers gravitating to these days? That's always a question people always look at after the fact, they just jump in and start coding. What are some of the updates that you see in the industry around licensing and IP? >> Well first, we're still seeing a massive shift away from proprietary software into open-source software. There's still a lot of organizations that are adopting proprietary, but now they have program offices dedicated to open-source, and it encourages onboarding, adoption and giving back to open-source projects, so that trend is still significant. And as a result there's a lot of open-source foundations and non-profits that are benefiting from that. I think we're seeing huge growth in the Linux foundation, and all of its sub-organizations that are there, and we've also seen a resurgence in other open-source foundations like the Eclipse foundation as well. >> Lauren and I were talking about the opening about Kubernetes and that, outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley or the industry, you go to a standard enterprise. Waterfall moving to agile, Kubernetes is new. >> Tyler: Yeah. >> So in your opinion, what does Kubernetes mean for enterprises, and how should people think about the big movement to CloudNative, with respect to continuing the application development and continuing the innovation? >> I think that the momentum around Kubernetes, particularly around the ecosystem consolidating around it, means that we have a de facto standard for a run-time platform that can engage both operations and development. And in the first time over the past 20 years, we do not have a fragmented market anymore. And when you don't have a fragmented market, the productivity gains that come from the value added layers on top of that are going to increase dramatically, and I think that's why we so many vendors here, and why we see now I think almost 4,000 people at this conference this year as well. >> It's super awesome. What do you see as the next wave of innovation with the standardization? With the standardization people can rally around it. >> Yeah. >> Where's the next work being done around Kubernetes? >> I think that the next level of work here is, this is the year of the service mesh. And really the service mesh is a representation of how you build complex orchestrations, and applications that have a lot of compositions around that so workflow, stateful behaviors, long running processes, this is the next layer up, and that's where the standardization is going to go next. >> And certainly containers are great. How about security what's your view on security? Because that's a big discussion we were asking ourselves, okay what's the state of the art? Obviously Google's got an approach, we're seeing what they're doing. Is it baked is it being baked out? What's new what's your view on security? >> I think that security continues to be a massive problem. The introduction of GDPR this year really brings the spotlight onto all the data privacy issues that we have to deal with around the world, but I think we have a fundamental problem with security which is it's still this baked-on, add-on thing that's applied to your applications, and instead we actually need to look at programming languages in the apps that you write, as being security proof from the very beginning. And that's going to require a programming language to do that at the lowest level and the OS as well >> How is Ballerina handling that? Are they doing it up front? >> Well our approach to it is that we assume all data is tainted. And that the developer has to explicitly say this is safe data to avoid intrusion and tax on that, and so the compiler will actually reject any code that is not explicitly given that tag. >> Yeah assume the worst, hope for the best right? >> How are you looking to onboard developers to this platform this is a different programming language, talk a little bit about that. >> This is a programming language which means it's all about developer evangelism all day long. And you and I both started our careers 20 years ago in developer evangelism Lauren right? So it is going door to door, meet up to meet up, giving technical demos and encouraging people to get involved in the community and to write apps with it, that's how you do it. >> What's the state of the language now shipping? Is it available? What's the announcement? What's your plan how are you going to roll this thing out? >> It is shipping now, we just hit our .970 release we've been at it for 3 years, we've got a hundred committers on the project, but we just went public this week with Ballerina.io. At the .970 release, we are still making some minor language tweaks, and we hope to get to a Juanado language lock by the end of this year, and then we'll have backwards compatibility for three to five years with that. And probably sometime this summer, WSO2 our company will offer commercial support, and have it in use and production with our customer accounts >> And any feedback from early users? What's the vibe what's the feedback, what are you hearing? >> The vibe is hot right? It's a new programming language, it's got an awesome logo associated with this, but more importantly the language is easy for anyone to learn in a couple of hours, and developers love to see the glue that they can pick up and put into their toolbox that quickly. >> For the folks watching that aren't here in Europe, that didn't make the trip from the US or are watching remote, What's the big takeaway in your mind of the KubeCon 2018 Europe? What's the stage look like for you here? What's the show happenings? What's the big themes what's the takeaway? >> I think that the big takeaway is that the scale is finally now approachable for the rest of us on that, and that the ecosystem is ready to support you, and that it's crossed the chasm out of the early adopter and into the growth phase and ready for broad based adoption at this point. >> And the growth of microservices has been pretty significant? >> Ridiculous. >> Yeah cool. (laughter) Tyler thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it! >> Lauren: Thank you. >> Utterly my pleasure thank you for having me. >> Hey live coverage here in Denmark, we're in Copenhagen for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)