(upbeat techno music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by EBD. >> Hello everyone, this is David Vellante, for the CUBE. And we're here covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual version, thCUBE virtual, if you will. And welcome to our power-panel. Now in this session, we'll dig into database modernization. We want to better understand how and why customers are tapping open source to drive innovation. But at the same time, they've got to deliver the resiliency and enterprise capabilities that they're used to that are now necessary to support today's digital business requirements. And with me are three experts on these matters. Abdul Sheik, is Global CTO and President of Cintra. Young Il Cho, aka Charlie, is High Availability Cluster Sales Manager, at Daone CNS. And Alan Villalobos, is the Director of Development Partnerships, at IBM. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, nice to be here. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right, let's talk trends and frame the problem. Abdul, I want to start with you? Cintra you're all about this topic. Accelerating innovation using EDB Postgres helping customers move to modern platforms. And doing so, you got to do it cost-effectively but what's driving these moves? What are the problems that you're seeing at the organizations that you serve? >> Oh, so let me quickly introduce, Abdul Sheik, CTO. I'll quickly introduce Cintra. So we are a multicloud and database architecture MSP. And we've been around for 25 plus years. Headquartered in New York and the UK. But as a global organization, we're serving our SMB customers as well as large enterprise customers. And the trends we're seeing certainly in this day and age is transformation and modernization. And what that means is, customers looking to get out of the legacy platforms, get out of the legacy data centers and really move towards a modern strategy with a lower cost base, while still retaining resiliency and freedom. Ultimately, in terms of where they're going. The key words that really I see driving this, number one is choice. They've been historically locked into vendors. With limited choice with a high cost base. So choice, freedom to choose in terms of what database technologies they apply to which workloads and certainly EDB and the work that has been done to closely marry what enterprise RD platforms offer with EDBs in a work that they've done in terms of filling those gaps and addressing where the resiliency monitoring performance and security requirements are, are certainly are required from an enterprise customer perspective. Choice is driving the move that we see and choice towards a lower cost platform that can be deployed anywhere. Both on-prem modernization customers are looking to retain on premise platforms or moving into any multi clouds whether it's an infrastructure cloud play or a platform cloud play. And certainly with EDBs offering in terms of, you know the latest cloud native offerings also very interesting. And lastly, aside from just cost and the freedom to choose where they deploy those platforms the SLA, the service level model where is the resiliency requirement where the which system is going to bronze, silver, gold? Which ones are the tier one revenue platform revenue generating platforms which are the lower, lower utility platforms. So a combination of choice, a combination of freedom to deploy anywhere and while still maintaining the resiliency and the service levels that the customers need to deliver to their businesses >> Abdul that was a beautiful setup. And, and we've got so much to talk about here because customers want to move from point A to point B but getting there and they, they need help. It's sometimes not trivial. So Charlie Daone is a consultancy. You've got a strong technical capabilities. What are you seeing in this space? You know, what are the major trends? Why are organizations considering that move? And what are some of the considerations there? >> Well, like in other country in South Korea or so our a lot of customers, banking's a manufacturing distributor. They are 90, over 90%. They are all are using Oracle DB and a rack system. But as the previous presenters pointed out, a lot of customers that are sick of the Oracle and they have to undergo the huge cost of a maintenance costs. They want to move away from this cost stress. And secondly, they can think about they're providing service to customer on their cloud base which is a private or the public. So we cannot imagine running on database, Oracle database running on the cloud the system that's not matches on this cloud. And first and second, and finally the customer what they want is the cost and they want to move away from the Oracle locking. They cannot be just a slave at Oracle for a long time and the premium for the new cloud the service for the customer. >> Great. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Did you have something else to add Charlie go ahead and please. >> No that's all. >> Okay, great. Yeah, Allen, welcome to theCUBE. You know, it's very interesting to us. IBM, you, you, of course, you're a big player in database. You have a lot of expertise here. And you partner with EDB, you're offering Postgres to customers, you know, what are you seeing? Charlie was talking about Oracle and RAC. I mean, the, the, the thing there is obviously, we talked about the maintenance costs but there's also a lot of high availability capabilities. That's something that IBM really understands well. Do you see this as largely a cloud migration trend? Is it more modernization? Interested in what's IBM's perspective on this? >> I think modernization is the right word. The points that the previous panelists brought up or are on point, right? You know, lower TCO or lower costs in general but that of agility and then availability for developers and data scientists as well. And then of course, you know, hybrid cloud, right? You know, you want to be able to deploy on prem or in the cloud, or both in a mixture of all of that. And I think, I think what ties it together is the customers are looking for insights, right? And, you know, especially in larger organizations there's a myriad of data sources that they're already working with. And, you know, we, you know we want to be able to play in that space. We want to give an offering that is based on Postgres and open source and be able to further what they're strong at at and kind of, you know on top of that, you know, a layer of, of of need that we see is, is seamless data governance across all of those different stores. >> All right, I'm going to go right to the heart of the hard problem here. So if, I mean, I want to, it's just that I want to get from point A to point B, I want to save money. I want to modernize, but if I'm the canary in the coal mine at the customer, I'm saying guys, migration scares me. How do I do that? What are the considerations? And what do I need to know that I don't know. So Abdul, maybe you could walk us through what are some of the concerns that customers have? How do you help mitigate those? Whether it's other application dependencies, you know freezing code, you know, getting, again from that point A to point B without risking my existing business processes how do you handle that? >> Yeah, certainly I think a customer needs to understand what the journey looks like to begin with. So we've actually developed our own methodology that we call Rocket Cloud, which is also part of our cloud modernization strategy that builds in and database modernization strategy built into it starts with an assessment in terms of current state discovery. Not all customers totally understand where they are today. So understanding where the database state is, you know where the risks lie what are the criticality of the various databases? What technologies are used, where we have RAC or we don't have RAC but we have data God, where we have encryption. And so on. That gives the customer a very good insight in terms of the current state, both commercially and technically that's a key point to understand how they're licensed today and what costs could be freed up to free the journey to effectively fund the journey. It's a big, big topic, but once we do that, we get an idea and we've actually developed a tool called rapid discovery. That's able to discover a largest stake without knowing the database list. We just put the scripts at the database servers themselves and it tells us exactly which databases are suited to be you know, effectively migrated to Postgres with in terms of the feature function usage in terms of how heavy they are, would store procedures in the database amount of business logic use of technologies like RAC data guard and how they convert over to to Postgres specifically. That ultimately gives us the ability to give that customer an assessment and that assessment in a short sharp few weeks and get the customer view of all of my hundreds of databases. Here are the subset of candidates for Postgres and specifically than we do the schemer advisor tool the actual assessment tool from EDB, which gives us a sense of how well the schema gets converted and how best to then also look at the stored procedure conversion as well. That gives the customer a full view of their architecture mapping their specific candidate databases and then a cost analysis in terms of what that migration looks like and how we migrate. We also run and maintain those platforms once we're on EDB. >> Thank you for that again, very clear but so you're not replacing, doing an organ transplant. You may, you're you're, you know, this is not I don't mean this as a pejorative, but you're kind of cherry picking those workloads that are appropriate for EDB and then moving those and then maybe, maybe through attrition or, you know over time, sun-setting those other, those other core pieces. >> Exactly. >> Charlie, let me ask you, so we talked about RAC, real application clusters, data guard. These are, you know kind of high profile Oracle capabilities. Can you, can you really replicate the kind of resiliency at lower costs with open source, with EDB Postgres and how do you do that? >> It's my turn? >> yes, please. >> Quite technically, again, I go on in depths and technically the RAC, RAC system is so-called is the best you know, best the tool to protect data and especially in the Unix system, but apart from the RAC by the some nice data replication solution we just stream the application and log shipping and something and then monitor Pam and, and EFM solution which is enterprise failover manager. So even though it be compared to Apple the Apple RAC versus with EDB solution, we can definitely say that RAC is more stable one, but after migration, whatever, we can overcome the, you know, drawbacks of the HA cluster system by providing the EDB tools. So whatever the customer feel that after a successful migration, utilizing the EDB high availability failable solution they can make of themselves at home. So that's, that's how we approach it with the customers. >> So, Alan, again, to me, IBM is fascinating here with your level of involvement because you're the, you guys are sort of historically the master of proprietary the mainframes, VCM, CICF, EB2, all that stuff. And then, you know IBM was the first I remember Steve Mills actually announced we're going to invest a billion dollars in open source with Linux. And that was a major industry milestone. And of course, the, the acquisition of red hat. So you've got now this open source mindset this open source culture. So we, you know, as it's all about recovery in, in database and enterprise database and all the acid properties in two phase commits, and we're talking about, you know the things that Charlie just talked about. So what's your perspective here? IBM knows a lot about this. How do you help customers get there? >> Yeah, well, I mean the main, the main thrust right now IBM has a offering called IBM cloud Pak for data which from here, which runs EDB, right? EDB, Postgres runs on top of cloud Pak for Data But the, you know I think going back to Abdul's points about, you know migrating whatever's needed and whatever can be migrated to Postgres and maybe migrating other things other places, we have data virtualization and autoSQL, right? So once you have migrated those parts of your database or those schemes that can be, having, you know a single point where you can query across them and by the way, being able to query across them you know, before, during and after migration as well. Right? So we're kind of have that seamless experience of layer of SQL. And now with autoSQL of spark SQL as well, as you're, as you're migrating and after is, I'd say, you know, key to this. >> What, what's the typical migration look like? I know I'm sorry, but it's a consultant question but thinking about the, you know, the average, in terms of timeframe, what are the teams look like? You know who are the stakeholders that I need to get involved? If I'm a customer to really make this a success? maybe Abdul, you could talk about that and Charlie and Alan can chime in. >> Well, I think, well, number one you knew the exact sponsors bought into it in terms of the business case, supporting the business case an architect has got a big picture understanding not only database technology but also infrastructure that they're coming from as well as the target cloud platforms and how you ensure that the infrastructure can deliver the performance. So the architect role is important, of course the core DBA that lives within the scope of the database understands the schema of the data model the business logic itself, and the application on it. That's key specifically around the application certification testing connectivity and the migration of the code. And specifically in terms of timeline just to touch on that quickly. I mean, in our experience so far and we're seeing the momentum really really take off the last 18 months, a small project with limited business logic within the database itself can we migrate it in a couple of months but typically with all the testing and rigor around that you typically say three months timeline a medium-sized complexity projects, a six month timeline and a large complex project could be anything from nine months and beyond, but it really comes down to how heavy the database is with business logic and the database and how much effort it will take to re-engineer effectively migrate that PLC code, business logic into EDB given the compatibility level between Oracle and EDB it's relatively certainly an easier path than any other target platform in terms of options. Yeah. Not perspective. That's certainly looks like the composition of a team and timeline >> Charlie or Alan, anything you guys would add. >> Yeah. So, so I think all those personas make sense. I think you might, on the consumer side of the consumer the consumer of the data side the data scientists often we see, you know during migrations and then obviously the dev ops, I think or any operations, right, have to be heavily involved. And then lastly, you know, you see more and more data steward role or data steward type persona, CDO office type type person coming in there make sure that, you know, whatever data governance that is already in place or wants to be in place after the migration is also part of the conversation. >> Why EDB? You know, there's a lot of databases out there you know, it's funny, I always say like, you know, 10, 15 years ago databases were kind of sort of a boring market, right? It was like, okay, you're going to work or whatever. And now it's exploded. You got open source databases, you got, you know not only sequel databases, you got graph databases you know, you get cloud databases, it's going crazy. Why EDB? You wonder if you guys could address that? >> Allan why don't you go first this time? I'll compliment your answers. >> Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to, to the, the I guess varying needs and, and enterprises. Right. And I think that's, what's driven this explosion in databases, whether it's a document store like you're saying, or, or new types of RDBMS, the needs that we talked about at the beginning, like lower TCO, and the push to open source. But you know, the fact of the matter is that that yes, there is a myriad, an ecosystem of databases, pretty much any organization. And so, yeah, we want to tap into that. And why EDB? EDB has done a great job of taking Postgres and making it enterprise ready, you know, that's what they're, they're good at and that, you know fits very nicely with the IBM story obviously. And, and so, you know, and they've they've worked with us as well. They have an operator on, on the runs on red hat OpenShift. So that makes it portable as well but also part of the IBM cloud Pak for data story. And, and yeah, you know, we want to break down those silos. We realized that that need is there for all of these, you know, there's this ecosystem of databases. And so, you know, we're, we see our role as being that platform, whether it's red hat OpenShift, or IBM cloud Pak for data that, that unifies, and kind of gives you that single pane of glass across all of those sources. >> And Charlie, you're obviously all in, you've got EDB in your background. Why EDB for you? >> Before talking about EDB you asked about the previous question about how the migration was different from Oracle to EDB. We had a couple of success story in Korea telecom and some banking area, and it was easier. So EDB provide MTK tool as a people know but it was an appropriate, like a 90%. So we are the channel partner of the EDB for four years. So what we have done was to hire the Oracle expert. So we train Oracle export as as EDB expert at the same time so that they can approach customer and make it easy. So you have no worry about that. Just migrating EDB, Oracle to EDB. There is a no issue. Those telltales include all the tasks, you know Stratus test and trainee, and a POC that we there. So by investing that Oracle expert that we could overcome and persuade the customer to adopt EDB. So, why EDB? Simply I can say there, is there any database they can finally replaced Oracle in the world? Why is the, it's the interoperability between Oracle to EDB as the many experts pointed out there is no other DBE. They can, you know, 90, 90% in compatibility and intercooperability with EDB. That's why, of course, there's the somewhat, you know budget issues or maintenance issue cost the issue escape from Oracle lock-in. But I think the the number one reason was the interoperability and the compatibility with database itself, Oracle database. That was a reason, I guess >> Great Abdul we've talked about, we all know the, as is, you've got a high maintenance costs. You got a lot of tuning, and it's just a lot of complexity. What about the 2B maybe you could share with us sort of the outcome some of the outcomes you've seen what the business impact has been of some of these migrations? >> Sure. I mean, I'll give you a very simple example then just the idea of running Oracle on prem a lot of customer systems teams, for example will drive a virtualization VMware strategy. We know some of the challenges of running Oracle MBM where from a license perspective. So giving the business the ability where I want to go customer in the financial services market in New York, heavy virtualization strategy the ability for them to move away from Oracle on, you know expensive hardware on to Postgres EDB on virtualization just leverage existing skillsets, leveraging existing investment in terms of infrastructure, and also give them portability in AWS. The other clouds, you know, in terms of a migration. More from a business perspective as well, I would say about some of the Allan's points in terms of just freeing up the ability for data scientists and data consumers, to, you know, to consume some of that data from an Postgres perspective more accessibility spinning up environments quicker less latency in terms of the agility is another key word in terms of the tangible differences, the business, lower cost agility, and the freedom to deploy anywhere at the end of the day. Choices, I think the key word that we could come back to and knowing that we can do that to Charlie's point specifically around maintaining service levels. And as architects, we support some of the big, big names out there in terms of airlines, online, cosmetic retailers, financial services, trading applications, hedge funds, and they all want one thing as architect: for us to deliver that resiliency and stand behind them. And as the MSP we're accountable to ensure those systems are up and running and performing. So knowing that the EDB is provided the compatibility but also plugged the specific requirements around performance management, security availability that's fundamentally been key. >> [Dave I mean, having done a lot of TCO studies in this area, it's, it's it Oracle's different. You know, normally the biggest component of TCO is labor with Oracle. The biggest component of TCO is licensed and maintenance costs. So if you can virtualize and reduce those costs and of course, of course the Oracle will fight you and say we won't support it in a VMware environment. Of course, you know, they will, but, but you got to really, you got to battle. But, so here's my last question. So if I'm a customer in that state that you described you know, a lot of sort of Oracle sprawl a lot of databases out there, high maintenance costs, the whole lock-in thing. I got to choices. I, you know, a lot of choices out there. One is EDB. You guys have convinced me that you've got the expertise If I can partner with firms like yours, it's safer route. Okay, cool. My other choice is Oracle is going to, The Oracle sales reps is going to get me in a headlock and talk about exit data and how their Oracle cloud, and how it's, they've invested a lot there. And they have, and, I can pay by the drink all this sort of modern sort of discussion, you know, Oracle act like they invented it late to the game. And then here we are. So, so help me. What's the pitch as to, well, that's kind of compelling. It's maybe the safe bet they're there. They're working with my CIO, whatever. Why should I go with the open source route versus that route? It sounds kind of attractive to me, help me understand that each of you maybe take me through that. Abdul, why don't you start. >> Yeah. I'd say, you know, Oracle's being the defacto for so many years that people have just assumed and defaulted saying, high availability, RAC, DR. Data guard, you know, and I'll apply to any database need that I have. And at the end of the day customers have a three tier database requirement: the lowest, less critical, bronze level databases that really don't need RAC or a high availability, silver tier that are departmental solutions. That means some level of resiliency. And then you've got your gold revenue producing brand impact databases that are they're down. And certainly they won. You see no reason why the bronze and silver databases can be targeted towards EDB. Admittedly, we have some of our largest customers are running platforms, are running $5 million an hour e-commerce platform or airlines running large e-commerce platforms. And exit data certainly has a place. RAC has a place in those, in those scenarios. Were not saying that the EDB is a solution for everything in all scenarios, but apply the technology where it's appropriate where it's required and, you know, generally wherever Oracle has being the defacto and it's being applied across the estate, that's fundamentally what's changed. It doesn't have to be the only answer you have multiple choices now. EDB provides us with the ability to probably address, you know more than 50% of the databases' state, and comfortably cope with that and just apply that more expensive kind of gold tier one cost-based but also capability, you know from the highest requirements of performance and availability where it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Very pragmatic approach. Abdul, thank you for that. And Charlie. Charlie, what's your perspective? Give us your closing thoughts. >> Well, it has been, Oracle has been dominating in Asia in South Korea has market or over many years. So customers got tired of this, continuous spending money for the maintenance costs and there is no discount. There is no negotiation. So they want to move away from expensive stuff. And they were looking for a flexible platform with the easygoing and the high speed and performance open source database like a possibly as career. And now the EDB cannot replace a hundred percent of existing legacy worker, but 10%, 20% 50% as time goes on the trend that will continue. And it will be reaching some high point or replacing the existing Oracle system. And it can, it can also leading to good business chance to a channel partner and EDB steps and other related business in open source. >> Great. Thank you, Charlie and Allen, bring us home here. Give us your follow up >> I think my, co- panelists hit the nail on the head, right? It's a menu, right? That's as things become more diverse and as people make more choices and as everybody wants more agility, you have to provide, I mean, and so that, that's where that's coming in and I liked the way that Andul I kind of split it into gold silver and bronze. Yeah. And I think that that's where, we're going, right? I mean you should ask your developers right? Are your developers like pining to start up a new instance of Oracle every time you're starting a new project? Probably not reach for their Postgres right? And so, because of that, that's where this is coming from and that's not going to change. And, and yeah, that that ecosystem is going to continue to, to thrive. And there'll be lots of different flavors in the growing open source ecosystem. >> Yeah. I mean, open source absolutely is the underpinning you know, the, the bedrock of innovation, these days. Gentlemen, great power panel. Thanks so much for bringing your perspectives and best of luck in the future. >> Thank you, next time we'll try and match our backgrounds >> Next time. Well, we'll up our game. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE. Stay tuned for more great coverage. Postgres vision, 21. Be right back. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to "theCUBE" stage here in cloud city, TelcoDr, Telco digital revolution. We had a chance to talk to Rob Haberman, CTO of Nokia software. Great interview as part of our hybrid program here, but we're still on the floor onsite. Let's go listen to my great interview with Ron and what he had to say about the power of the cloud. (upbeat digital music) And welcome to "theCUBE's" coverage of Mobile World Congress, 2021. It's an in-person and hybrid event and we're here in Palo Alto through remote interview as part of the hybrid, getting as much content as possible, is a great guest Ron Haberman, who is the CTO of Nokia Cloud Network Services known as CNS. Ron's an expert. He's going to come in and share with us his vision and his commentary on openness in the cloud, Telco cloud, the changes at the Edge, of so much going on, so much innovation that's changing the game, that's going to impact lives and society. Ron, thank you for coming on "theCUBE" for this Mobile World Congress special segment. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> So the transformation in the cloud is so amazing with 5G. You've got cloud native developers, you've got enterprises changing their architectures, and cloud service probably going to the next level. 5G certainly is a great edge, but the strength of the cloud combined with the new modern applications really is going to be the power. And you start to see people starting to think differently around how developers are building apps and how companies are working together. It's not just one company ruling the world anymore, it's a lot of interoperability, interconnections, a lot of API's openness, kind of sounds like a network. It sounds like a network effect. This is a big deal. What's your take on this whole shift as 5G gets enabling a fast edge and cloud native go hand in hand. What's your take? >> I think 5G and the transformation to cloud native, generically speaking, go very nicely hand in hand. It's important to understand that 5G is not just another G, really because it's more intended for consumption by businesses and not just consumer. And what it means is that it would have a vast impact on how development is done, how the deployment is done and the type of features that would be required from the network. So when we went on our path to start developing for cloud native, primarily, for 5G, it went beyond just being cloud ready. And we started looking at how do we expand the operability with the ecosystems? How do we go into topics such as continuous delivery? How do we create collaboration between CSPs and cloud providers, such as we can provide the advancements. Now, there are quite a few subtopics in the transformation. For example, these might be obvious, but without automation there's really no ability to create a cloud native delivery process. If you're on the cloud, you're creating speed and ability to innovate as well as access, but you also are now required to create a better security system in ways to tie things back together. The multi-vendor environment and the path that it would enable to move to as a service model is again, a topic that can really be established as part of this transition to cloud native and has been greatly in focus for us. And finally there is a bit of a balancing act in some of the use cases in how do we use new technologies such as machine learning, in creating new use cases. For Nokia as a supplier of both the network functions, which are now getting distributed into public cloud in the private cloud, and on the Edges, as well as control systems of different types of OSS, BSS, including charging, enablement, IOP, et cetera, et cetera. It's really about how do we bring these things together in a way that creates use cases that the service providers can position, especially in their now quest to go after B2B, in leveraging their network. >> Yeah, and you guys bring huge strength there on the Nokia side. I want to ask you specifically, as CSPs are collaborating with you guys to leverage that strength of cloud native and open, the question comes up is how fast can they get to a modern, agile, open infrastructure and how fast can they enable value? And that's where this whole interoperability thing, or this interplay between cloud native and innovation hub comes together. Can you take us through how you see that? How cloud service providers are approaching cloud native today? Because that's really kind of where the focus is, how do I get the operating value, with the speed and agility of development, and obviously built in all the security and everything else? That seems to be the disruptor and let's face it, it's been a slow world in the telco place. So cloud has been a speed game with value, but it's an operator game too. What's your thoughts? >> That's right. And look, I'll take you maybe just a little bit into the history of this transition because only just a few years ago, most networks were really build purely with what we're now referring to as SPMS, physical network functions, really a equipment that was installed in a certain pop locations and created the network. We started this transition to virtualization in the world of VMS and then cloud ready and now cloud native. And it's been a few years for these things to come together. And maybe the most important thing that we must get right, is that as we dis-aggregate and in a way it complicates the deployment, if you would, by a few factors, we want to give the tools to indeed go fast, because the name of the game in moving to cloud native is to speed up innovation. So what we've been doing and in collaboration now with Google, is on the one hand, we need to make sure that all of the network functions, the operating models work, into this aggregated cloud. They can go all the way from a private data center through the Edge, into the central data center. Then on the Nokia side, we have to bring the capabilities to tie networks together, be able to migrate workloads between the locations. And maybe most importantly, as we release new versions of our software, as we enable new capabilities, we want to put it in the hands of the service providers and in turn the developers right away. So we need to enable true continuous delivery in the sense that is very familiar in the cloud world, but quite new to telco. So we have- >> You know. All right sorry- >> Go ahead. >> I'm sorry to interrupt, continue. >> Maybe just to give a very practical example of a customer that we share in Europe, Telenet we're starting with an on-premise Anthos based type of deployment, but keeping an eye on moving to the Edge and into the broader cloud, really enabling themselves to be in a multi region and with true Northbound open interfaces for new use cases to be implemented. >> Yeah, Ron, I want to get your thoughts on this. Dave Vellante, my cohost and I we're talking just in an earlier segment around how major inflection points have some characteristics. They all have characters in common. Usually it's proprietary to open shifts happen. And one in point we were looking at was like the nineties, the late eighties, early nineties, when you had proprietary networking protocol stacks, and then OSI stack came out. Obviously we know what happened from there TCP/IP created the best biggest wave of innovation in the computer history we've seen. Similar things happened here. And I won't say proprietary per se, but there were 5G and telcos stuff, that's kind of like operator centric legacy. Are you starting to see this openness come back and I'm not going to say a full stack, but new kinds of disruption and 5G is opening up the door because it's not just consumer technology. A lot of people like the CEO of Intel saying this is a business technology, commercial technology, more than consumer because of the characteristics. And you combine that with cloud native and say openness with scale with cloud services, but you mentioned Google, that's a public cloud. And so public cloud is going to be a disruption, 'cause it brings scale. So it reminds me of this inflection point where you have this new shift and you mentioned networks, these networks are connecting. So you've got a public cloud and Google's known for their networks and their cloud is being highly scalable and secure. But they're not the only network in town. You got a 5G and you got Backhaul, you got all kinds of new heterogeneous environments. What's your comment on that? Because this is what people are talking about. Where's the shift going to go? What wave is this? What's this going to look like? Is this a true disruption or is it more of the same? What's your thoughts? >> I think it's a true disruption. One of the biggest parts of 5G that would enable these new use cases is slicing. Now slicing is a big word describing something that most of us in networks know for quite some time, really the ability to create some kind of a piece of the network that is shared between partners for a particular purpose, with a particular SLA that contains bandwidth and licensing or requirements, locations, et cetera, et cetera. Now the ultimate goal is for an enterprise to be able to interface with the public cloud and with their operator and consume resources completely dynamically. Now, you talked about Google and public cloud. And obviously anybody that used GCP knows that at any point in time, you can go into a region, you can reserve what you need, use what you need, create results, and then either keep it move away, open new locations, et cetera, et cetera. One thing is missing, the connectivity over the mobile air interface to your user. And slicing allows us to combine the power of the true cloud with the ability to dynamically and programmatically, create a slice for a particular purpose. And for us, the ultimate goal is that really networks would become programmable and a developer or their user would be able to interface with the system and literally create network in code. Now there's going to be quite a lot of building blocks required to reach that goal, given that today, most of it is static. But it starts with at least being able to orchestrate resources out of the network, tie them into termination point that by themselves are annex, that are cloud native and potentially even running in the true public cloud and then attach them into a use case. Now you also mentioned openness and Nokia had been on this open path for quite some time in creating choice for our customers, but now with Google coming in with GCP for example, the interface that we create with technology such as Apogee enable openness, not just for our customer being the CSP, but also for the developer to come in from the outside and reside within the ecosystem that they chose and still be able to consume and even create services dynamically. And we enable it with products that interface with that on the other side, which we can get in there. >> Yeah, what's interesting. What you're saying is interesting, I would just call it out because I think it's important. We hear this all the time is that with the Edge and the devices, people are managing an end to end workflow from an application standpoint. But that's very difficult when you don't have networks that are being managed as a heterogeneous environment. So that's a key point you made. So the question I have for you is how can operators best manage this wave? Because this is the holy grail you're talking about here. We're talking about end to end visibility into the workflow as a developer, with the shift left security being built in. No one's debating that, everyone knows that. So as an operator, how do I starting today operate and manage through this? 'Cause I got to operate a large network. It's almost like swapping the engine out at 30,000 feet in the airplane. So how should operators think about taking this step? >> So the first thing to do is to really just accept the fact that there is going to be true legacy... And there are plenty of 3G networks today still operating around the world. There's going to be, to what is now starting to look like semi legacy. So VNX that have only been delivered to networks, maybe in the past couple of years and will carry 4G traffic and will stay in production for quite some time and manage this transition between PMS, VMs, running VNX, VMs running containerized workloads, and true cloud native, which may be bare metal. And as we're working with Google on Anthos, it literally enables this transition by creating a position for us to put the workload in each step of the path, as well as in multiple locations around the network. And what Nokia brings into this equation, it's also a unified view for the operator. So if you're an operator that today runs on VMs on prem, you have some workflows defined and you've been running them in a certain way, we want to keep that view as similar as possible with the tooling that you were enabled to use over the past few years, but create extensions that connects us into the containerized workflow and then a true cloudified workflow out of the same environment. And this is actually in part what we've been collaborating both with some CSPs, as well as with Google on enabling. >> Ron Haberman, CTO, Nokia Cloud Network Services Group, thank you so much for that insight, great commentary. Thank you for sharing your perspective on the future of telco, telco cloud, telco Edge, unifying those networks end to end. Great stuff, thank you for coming on "theCube." >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is Cube's coverage of Mobile World Congress 2021. We're in person and we're virtual, it's a hybrid event. Thanks for watching. >> John clearly the power of the public cloud in that interview. Great job, by the way, >> It was great to get Nokia and to hear the operator impact, and that's awesome. More to come. So back to the studio, Adam and the team back at the studio.

(upbeat techno music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by enterprise Enterprise DB. >> Hello everyone, this is David Vellante, for the CUBE. And we're here covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual version, thCUBE virtual, if you will. And welcome to our power-panel. Now in this session, we'll dig into database modernization. We want to better understand how and why customers are tapping open source to drive innovation. But at the same time, they've got to deliver the resiliency and enterprise capabilities that they're used to that are now necessary to support today's digital business requirements. And with me are three experts on these matters. Abdul Sheik, is Global CTO and President of Cintra. Young Il Cho, aka Charlie, is High Availability Cluster Sales Manager, at Daone CNS. And Alan Villalobos, is the Director of Development Partnerships, at IBM. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, nice to be here. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right, let's talk trends and frame the problem. Abdul, I want to start with you? Cintra you're all about this topic. Accelerating innovation using EDB Postgres helping customers move to modern platforms. And doing so, you got to do it cost-effectively but what's driving these moves? What are the problems that you're seeing at the organizations that you serve? >> Oh, so let me quickly introduce, Abdul Sheik, CTO. I'll quickly introduce Cintra. So we are a multicloud and database architecture MSP. And we've been around for 25 plus years. Headquartered in New York and the UK. But as a global organization, we're serving our SMB customers as well as large enterprise customers. And the trends we're seeing certainly in this day and age is transformation and modernization. And what that means is, customers looking to get out of the legacy platforms, get out of the legacy data centers and really move towards a modern strategy with a lower cost base, while still retaining resiliency and freedom. Ultimately, in terms of where they're going. The key words that really I see driving this, number one is choice. They've been historically locked into vendors. With limited choice with a high cost base. So choice, freedom to choose in terms of what database technologies they apply to which workloads and certainly EDB and the work that has been done to closely marry what enterprise RD platforms offer with EDBs in a work that they've done in terms of filling those gaps and addressing where the resiliency monitoring performance and security requirements are, are certainly are required from an enterprise customer perspective. Choice is driving the move that we see and choice towards a lower cost platform that can be deployed anywhere. Both on-prem modernization customers are looking to retain on premise platforms or moving into any multi clouds whether it's an infrastructure cloud play or a platform cloud play. And certainly with EDBs offering in terms of, you know the latest cloud native offerings also very interesting. And lastly, aside from just cost and the freedom to choose where they deploy those platforms the SLA, the service level model where is the resiliency requirement where the which system is going to bronze, silver, gold? Which ones are the tier one revenue platform revenue generating platforms which are the lower, lower utility platforms. So a combination of choice, a combination of freedom to deploy anywhere and while still maintaining the resiliency and the service levels that the customers need to deliver to their businesses >> Abdul that was a beautiful setup. And, and we've got so much to talk about here because customers want to move from point A to point B but getting there and they, they need help. It's sometimes not trivial. So Charlie Daone is a consultancy. You've got a strong technical capabilities. What are you seeing in this space? You know, what are the major trends? Why are organizations considering that move? And what are some of the considerations there? >> Well, like in other country in South Korea or so our a lot of customers, banking's a manufacturing distributor. They are 90, over 90%. They are all are using Oracle DB and a rack system. But as the previous presenters pointed out, a lot of customers that are sick of the Oracle and they have to undergo the huge cost of a maintenance costs. They want to move away from this cost stress. And secondly, they can think about they're providing service to customer on their cloud base which is a private or the public. So we cannot imagine running on database, Oracle database running on the cloud the system that's not matches on this cloud. And first and second, and finally the customer what they want is the cost and they want to move away from the Oracle locking. They cannot be just a slave at Oracle for a long time and the premium for the new cloud the service for the customer. >> Great. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Did you have something else to add Charlie go ahead and please. >> No that's all. >> Okay, great. Yeah, Allen, welcome to theCUBE. You know, it's very interesting to us. IBM, you, you, of course, you're a big player in database. You have a lot of expertise here. And you partner with EDB, you're offering Postgres to customers, you know, what are you seeing? Charlie was talking about Oracle and RAC. I mean, the, the, the thing there is obviously, we talked about the maintenance costs but there's also a lot of high availability capabilities. That's something that IBM really understands well. Do you see this as largely a cloud migration trend? Is it more modernization? Interested in what's IBM's perspective on this? >> I think modernization is the right word. The points that the previous panelists brought up or are on point, right? You know, lower TCO or lower costs in general but that of agility and then availability for developers and data scientists as well. And then of course, you know, hybrid cloud, right? You know, you want to be able to deploy on prem or in the cloud, or both in a mixture of all of that. And I think, I think what ties it together is the customers are looking for insights, right? And, you know, especially in larger organizations there's a myriad of data sources that they're already working with. And, you know, we, you know we want to be able to play in that space. We want to give an offering that is based on Postgres and open source and be able to further what they're strong at at and kind of, you know on top of that, you know, a layer of, of of need that we see is, is seamless data governance across all of those different stores. >> All right, I'm going to go right to the heart of the hard problem here. So if, I mean, I want to, it's just that I want to get from point A to point B, I want to save money. I want to modernize, but if I'm the canary in the coal mine at the customer, I'm saying guys, migration scares me. How do I do that? What are the considerations? And what do I need to know that I don't know. So Abdul, maybe you could walk us through what are some of the concerns that customers have? How do you help mitigate those? Whether it's other application dependencies, you know freezing code, you know, getting, again from that point A to point B without risking my existing business processes how do you handle that? >> Yeah, certainly I think a customer needs to understand what the journey looks like to begin with. So we've actually developed our own methodology that we call Rocket Cloud, which is also part of our cloud modernization strategy that builds in and database modernization strategy built into it starts with an assessment in terms of current state discovery. Not all customers totally understand where they are today. So understanding where the database state is, you know where the risks lie what are the criticality of the various databases? What technologies are used, where we have RAC or we don't have RAC but we have data God, where we have encryption. And so on. That gives the customer a very good insight in terms of the current state, both commercially and technically that's a key point to understand how they're licensed today and what costs could be freed up to free the journey to effectively fund the journey. It's a big, big topic, but once we do that, we get an idea and we've actually developed a tool called rapid discovery. That's able to discover a largest stake without knowing the database list. We just put the scripts at the database servers themselves and it tells us exactly which databases are suited to be you know, effectively migrated to Postgres with in terms of the feature function usage in terms of how heavy they are, would store procedures in the database amount of business logic use of technologies like RAC data guard and how they convert over to to Postgres specifically. That ultimately gives us the ability to give that customer an assessment and that assessment in a short sharp few weeks and get the customer view of all of my hundreds of databases. Here are the subset of candidates for Postgres and specifically than we do the schemer advisor tool the actual assessment tool from EDB, which gives us a sense of how well the schema gets converted and how best to then also look at the stored procedure conversion as well. That gives the customer a full view of their architecture mapping their specific candidate databases and then a cost analysis in terms of what that migration looks like and how we migrate. We also run and maintain those platforms once we're on EDB. >> Thank you for that again, very clear but so you're not replacing, doing an organ transplant. You may, you're you're, you know, this is not I don't mean this as a pejorative, but you're kind of cherry picking those workloads that are appropriate for EDB and then moving those and then maybe, maybe through attrition or, you know over time, sun-setting those other, those other core pieces. >> Exactly. >> Charlie, let me ask you, so we talked about RAC, real application clusters, data guard. These are, you know kind of high profile Oracle capabilities. Can you, can you really replicate the kind of resiliency at lower costs with open source, with EDB Postgres and how do you do that? >> It's my turn? >> yes, please. >> Quite technically, again, I go on in depths and technically the RAC, RAC system is so-called is the best you know, best the tool to protect data and especially in the Unix system, but apart from the RAC by the some nice data replication solution we just stream the application and log shipping and something and then monitor Pam and, and EFM solution which is enterprise failover manager. So even though it be compared to Apple the Apple RAC versus with EDB solution, we can definitely say that RAC is more stable one, but after migration, whatever, we can overcome the, you know, drawbacks of the HA cluster system by providing the EDB tools. So whatever the customer feel that after a successful migration, utilizing the EDB high availability failable solution they can make of themselves at home. So that's, that's how we approach it with the customers. >> So, Alan, again, to me, IBM is fascinating here with your level of involvement because you're the, you guys are sort of historically the master of proprietary the mainframes, VCM, CICF, EB2, all that stuff. And then, you know IBM was the first I remember Steve Mills actually announced we're going to invest a billion dollars in open source with Linux. And that was a major industry milestone. And of course, the, the acquisition of red hat. So you've got now this open source mindset this open source culture. So we, you know, as it's all about recovery in, in database and enterprise database and all the acid properties in two phase commits, and we're talking about, you know the things that Charlie just talked about. So what's your perspective here? IBM knows a lot about this. How do you help customers get there? >> Yeah, well, I mean the main, the main thrust right now IBM has a offering called IBM cloud Pak for data which from here, which runs EDB, right? EDB, Postgres runs on top of cloud Pak for Data But the, you know I think going back to Abdul's points about, you know migrating whatever's needed and whatever can be migrated to Postgres and maybe migrating other things other places, we have data virtualization and auto-sequel, right? So once you have migrated those parts of your database or those schemes that can be, having, you know a single point where you can query across them and by the way, being able to query across them you know, before, during and after migration as well. Right? So we're kind of have that seamless experience of layer of sequel. And now with auto sequel of sparks sequel as well, as you're, as you're migrating and after is, I'd say, you know, key to this. >> What, what's the typical migration look like? I know I'm sorry, but it's a consultant question but thinking about the, you know, the average, in terms of timeframe, what are the teams look like? You know who are the stakeholders that I need to get involved? If I'm a customer to really make this a success? maybe Abdul, you could talk about that and Charlie and Alan can chime in. >> Well, I think, well, number one you knew the exact sponsors bought into it in terms of the business case, supporting the business case an architect has got a big picture understanding not only database technology but also infrastructure that they're coming from as well as the target cloud platforms and how you ensure that the infrastructure can deliver the performance. So the architect role is important, of course the core DBA that lives within the scope of the database understands the schema of the data model the business logic itself, and the application on it. That's key specifically around the application certification testing connectivity and the migration of the code. And specifically in terms of timeline just to touch on that quickly. I mean, in our experience so far and we're seeing the momentum really really take off the last 18 months, a small project with limited business logic within the database itself can we migrate it in a couple of months but typically with all the testing and rigor around that you typically say three months timeline a medium-sized complexity projects, a six month timeline and a large complex project could be anything from nine months and beyond, but it really comes down to how heavy the database is with business logic and the database and how much effort it will take to re-engineer effectively migrate that PLC code, business logic into EDB given the compatibility level between Oracle and EDB it's relatively certainly an easier path than any other target platform in terms of options. Yeah. Not perspective. That's certainly looks like the composition of a team and timeline >> Charlie or Alan, anything you guys would add. >> Yeah. So, so I think all those personas make sense. I think you might, on the consumer side of the consumer the consumer of the data side the data scientists often we see, you know during migrations and then obviously the dev ops, I think or any operations, right, have to be heavily involved. And then lastly, you know, you see more and more data steward role or data steward type persona, CDO office type type person coming in there make sure that, you know, whatever data governance that is already in place or wants to be in place after the migration is also part of the conversation. >> Why EDB? You know, there's a lot of databases out there you know, it's funny, I always say like, you know, 10, 15 years ago databases were kind of sort of a boring market, right? It was like, okay, you're going to work or whatever. And now it's exploded. You got open source databases, you got, you know not only sequel databases, you got graph databases you know, you get cloud databases, it's going crazy. Why EDB? You wonder if you guys could address that? >> Allan why don't you go first this time? I'll compliment your answers. >> Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to, to the, the I guess varying needs and, and enterprises. Right. And I think that's, what's driven this explosion in databases, whether it's a document store like you're saying, or, or new types of RDBMS, the needs that we talked about at the beginning, like lower TCO, and the push to open source. But you know, the fact of the matter is that that yes, there is a myriad, an ecosystem of databases, pretty much any organization. And so, yeah, we want to tap into that. And why EDB? EDB has done a great job of taking Postgres and making it enterprise ready, you know, that's what they're, they're good at and that, you know fits very nicely with the IBM story obviously. And, and so, you know, and they've they've worked with us as well. They have an operator on, on the runs on red hat OpenShift. So that makes it portable as well but also part of the IBM cloud Pak for data story. And, and yeah, you know, we want to break down those silos. We realized that that need is there for all of these, you know, there's this ecosystem of databases. And so, you know, we're, we see our role as being that platform, whether it's red hat OpenShift, or IBM cloud Pak for data that, that unifies, and kind of gives you that single pane of glass across all of those sources. >> And Charlie, you're obviously all in, you've got EDB in your background. Why EDB for you? >> Before talking about EDB you asked about the previous question about how the migration was different from Oracle to EDB. We had a couple of success story in Korea telecom and some banking area, and it was easier. So EDB provide MTK tool as a people know but it was an appropriate, like a 90%. So we are the channel partner of the EDB for four years. So what we have done was to hire the Oracle expert. So we train Oracle export as as EDB expert at the same time so that they can approach customer and make it easy. So you have no worry about that. Just migrating EDB, Oracle to EDB. There is a no issue. Those telltales include all the tasks, you know Stratus test and trainee, and a POC that we there. So by investing that Oracle expert that we could overcome and persuade the customer to adopt EDB. So, why EDB? Simply I can say there, is there any database they can finally replaced Oracle in the world? Why is the, it's the interoperability between Oracle to EDB as the many experts pointed out there is no other DBE. They can, you know, 90, 90% in compatibility and intercooperability with EDB. That's why, of course, there's the somewhat, you know budget issues or maintenance issue cost the issue escape from Oracle lock-in. But I think the the number one reason was the interoperability and the compatibility with database itself, Oracle database. That was a reason, I guess >> Great Abdul we've talked about, we all know the, as is, you've got a high maintenance costs. You got a lot of tuning, and it's just a lot of complexity. What about the 2B maybe you could share with us sort of the outcome some of the outcomes you've seen what the business impact has been of some of these migrations? >> Sure. I mean, I'll give you a very simple example then just the idea of running Oracle on prem a lot of customer systems teams, for example will drive a virtualization VMware strategy. We know some of the challenges of running Oracle MBM where from a license perspective. So giving the business the ability where I want to go customer in the financial services market in New York, heavy virtualization strategy the ability for them to move away from Oracle on, you know expensive hardware on to Postgres EDB on virtualization just leverage existing skillsets, leveraging existing investment in terms of infrastructure, and also give them portability in AWS. The other clouds, you know, in terms of a migration. More from a business perspective as well, I would say about some of the Allan's points in terms of just freeing up the ability for data scientists and data consumers, to, you know, to consume some of that data from an Postgres perspective more accessibility spinning up environments quicker less latency in terms of the agility is another key word in terms of the tangible differences, the business, lower cost agility, and the freedom to deploy anywhere at the end of the day. Choices, I think the key word that we could come back to and knowing that we can do that to Charlie's point specifically around maintaining service levels. And as architects, we support some of the big, big names out there in terms of airlines, online, cosmetic retailers, financial services, trading applications, hedge funds, and they all want one thing as architect: for us to deliver that resiliency and stand behind them. And as the MSP we're accountable to ensure those systems are up and running and performing. So knowing that the EDB is provided the compatibility but also plugged the specific requirements around performance management, security availability that's fundamentally been key. >> [Dave I mean, having done a lot of TCO studies in this area, it's, it's it Oracle's different. You know, normally the biggest component of TCO is labor with Oracle. The biggest component of TCO is licensed and maintenance costs. So if you can virtualize and reduce those costs and of course, of course the Oracle will fight you and say we won't support it in a VMware environment. Of course, you know, they will, but, but you got to really, you got to battle. But, so here's my last question. So if I'm a customer in that state that you described you know, a lot of sort of Oracle sprawl a lot of databases out there, high maintenance costs, the whole lock-in thing. I got to choices. I, you know, a lot of choices out there. One is EDB. You guys have convinced me that you've got the expertise If I can partner with firms like yours, it's safer route. Okay, cool. My other choice is Oracle is going to, The Oracle sales reps is going to get me in a headlock and talk about exit data and how their Oracle cloud, and how it's, they've invested a lot there. And they have, and, I can pay by the drink all this sort of modern sort of discussion, you know, Oracle act like they invented it late to the game. And then here we are. So, so help me. What's the pitch as to, well, that's kind of compelling. It's maybe the safe bet they're there. They're working with my CIO, whatever. Why should I go with the open source route versus that route? It sounds kind of attractive to me, help me understand that each of you maybe take me through that. Abdul, why don't you start. >> Yeah. I'd say, you know, Oracle's being the defacto for so many years that people have just assumed and defaulted saying, high availability, RAC, DR. Data guard, you know, and I'll apply to any database need that I have. And at the end of the day customers have a three tier database requirement: the lowest, less critical, bronze level databases that really don't need RAC or a high availability, silver tier that are departmental solutions. That means some level of resiliency. And then you've got your gold revenue producing brand impact databases that are they're down. And certainly they won. You see no reason why the bronze and silver databases can be targeted towards EDB. Admittedly, we have some of our largest customers are running platforms, are running $5 million an hour e-commerce platform or airlines running large e-commerce platforms. And exit data certainly has a place. RAC has a place in those, in those scenarios. Were not saying that the EDB is a solution for everything in all scenarios, but apply the technology where it's appropriate where it's required and, you know, generally wherever Oracle has being the defacto and it's being applied across the estate, that's fundamentally what's changed. It doesn't have to be the only answer you have multiple choices now. EDB provides us with the ability to probably address, you know more than 50% of the databases' state, and comfortably cope with that and just apply that more expensive kind of gold tier one cost-based but also capability, you know from the highest requirements of performance and availability where it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Very pragmatic approach. Abdul, thank you for that. And Charlie. Charlie, what's your perspective? Give us your closing thoughts. >> Well, it has been, Oracle has been dominating in Asia in South Korea has market or over many years. So customers got tired of this, continuous spending money for the maintenance costs and there is no discount. There is no negotiation. So they want to move away from expensive stuff. And they were looking for a flexible platform with the easygoing and the high speed and performance open source database like a possibly as career. And now the EDB cannot replace a hundred percent of existing legacy worker, but 10%, 20% 50% as time goes on the trend that will continue. And it will be reaching some high point or replacing the existing Oracle system. And it can, it can also leading to good business chance to a channel partner and EDB steps and other related business in open source. >> Great. Thank you, Charlie and Allen, bring us home here. Give us your follow up >> I think my, co- panelists hit the nail on the head, right? It's a menu, right? That's as things become more diverse and as people make more choices and as everybody wants more agility, you have to provide, I mean, and so that, that's where that's coming in and I liked the way that Andul I kind of split it into gold silver and bronze. Yeah. And I think that that's where, we're going, right? I mean you should ask your developers right? Are your developers like pining to start up a new instance of Oracle every time you're starting a new project? Probably not reach for their Postgres right? And so, because of that, that's where this is coming from and that's not going to change. And, and yeah, that that ecosystem is going to continue to, to thrive. And there'll be lots of different flavors in the growing open source ecosystem. >> Yeah. I mean, open source absolutely is the underpinning you know, the, the bedrock of innovation, these days. Gentlemen, great power panel. Thanks so much for bringing your perspectives and best of luck in the future. >> Thank you, next time we'll try and match our backgrounds >> Next time. Well, we'll up our game. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE. Stay tuned for more great coverage. Postgres vision, 21. Be right back. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to the third day of wall-to-wall coverage here at Kubecon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am your host for the three days of coverage, Stu Miniman. Joining me this morning is Justin Warren. And happy to welcome back to the program, Erin Boyd who's a senior principal software engineer at Red Hat. Erin, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, so we had a chance to catch up in Barcelona on theCUBE there. Storage is definitely one of the faster moving areas of this ecosystem over the last two years. Why don't we start with, really, the event? So, you know, as I said, we're in day three but day zero there were a whole lot of things we had. Some of your peers at Red Hat have talked about OpenShift Commons, but storage, to my understanding had a couple of things going on. Why don't you share with our audience a little bit of that? >> Sure, so we had a SIG face-to-face for Kubernetes, it was probably one of the best attended. We had to cap the number of attendees, so about 60 different people came to talk about the future of Kubernetes in storage, and what we need to be doing to meet our customers' needs. In conjunction with that, there was a parallel session called CNS Days, which is Container Native Storage Days. That event is very customer focused, so I really enjoyed bouncing between the two of them. To go from the hypothetical, programming, architecture view, straight to what customers in the enterprise are looking at and doing, and what their real needs are. >> So from that SIG, can you actually share a little bit of where we are, where some of the requests are? We know storage is never one way to fix it, there's been some debates, there's a couple different ways to do... I mean, traditional storage, you've got block, file, and object. Cloud storage, there are more options in cloud storage today than there was, if I was to configure a server, or buy a storage array in my own data center. So where are we, what are those asks? What's on the roadmap there? >> Right, so I think for the past five years, we've been really focused on being mindful of what APIs are common across all the vendors. I think we want to ensure that we're not excluding any vendors from being part of this ecosystem. And so, with that, we've created the basis of things like persistent volumes, persistent volumes claims, storage classes to automate that, storage quotas to be able to have management and control over it. So I think now we're looking to the next evolution of... As the model's maturing, and people are actually running stateful applications on Kubernetes, we need to be addressing their needs. So things like snapshotting, eventually volume cloning, which has just gone in, and migrating. All these type of things that exist within the data plane are going to be the next evolution of things we look at in the SIG. >> Yeah, so one criticism that's been mentioned about Kubernetes a few times, that one, it's a bit complicated. But also, it didn't really deal that well with stateful sets. Stateful data management has always been, it's been a little bit lacking. That seems to have pretty much been sorted out now. As you mentioned, there's a lot more work being done on storage operators. But you're talking about some of these data management features that operators from other paradigms are kind of used to being there. When you're thinking about moving workloads to Kubernetes, or putting in new workloads on Kubernetes, if you're unsure about, "Well, will I be able to operate this in the same way that I did things before?" How do you think people should be thinking about those kind of data services in Kubernetes? >> So I think it's great that you mentioned operators. Because that was one of the key things when Rook came into the landscape, to be able to lower the complexity of taking something that requires physical storage and compute, geography, node selection. All those things, it helped people who were used to just the cloud model. I create a PVC, it's a request for storage, Amazon magically fulfills it. I don't know what's backing it. To be able to take these more complex storage systems and deploy them within the ecosystem, it also does a good job supporting our Brownfield customers, because not every customer that's coming to Kubernetes is green. So it's important that we understand that some customers want to keep their data on-prem, maybe burst to the cloud to leverage those services, but then keep their data close to home. So operators help facilitate that. >> Yeah, Erin, I hesitate a little bit to ask this, but I'm wondering if you can do a little compare, contrast for us, for what the industry had done back in OpenStack days? When I looked at storage, every traditional storage company certified their environment for OpenStack. On a storage standpoint, it feels like a different story to me when I hear about the ecosystem of operators in OpenStack. So I know you know this space, so maybe you can give us a little bit of what we learned in the past. What's similar, what's different? >> Right, well I think one of the benefits is we have a lot of the same key players. As you may know, OpenShift has pivoted from Gluster to Ceph, Ceph being the major backer of OpenStack. So we're able to take some of that technical debt, and learn our lessons from things we could improve, and apply those things within Kubernetes. I just think that it's a little slower migration, because in OpenStack, like you said, we had certification, there were different drivers. And we're trying to learn from, maybe, I wouldn't even call those mistakes, but, how can we better automate this? What can we do from an operational perspective to make it easier? >> Well I think because one of the... It felt like we were kind of taking some older models and... I'm testing it, I'm adding it. The ecosystem for operators here is different. Many of these, we're talking very much software-driven solutions. It's built for container architectures, so it's understandable that it might take a little bit longer because it's a different paradigm. >> Right, well, and I think the certification kind of... It wasn't an inhibitor but it certainly took a lot of time. And I think our take was on... We used to have all the storage providers be entry providers within Kubernetes. And with CSI, we have since started to redo the plugins and the sidecars, and move that out of core. So then the certification kind of falls outside of that instead of being more tightly wound into the platform. And I think it will allow us to have a lot more flexibility. Instead of waiting on each release, vendors can create operators, certify them themselves, have them in their own CSI driver, and move at the pace that they need to move. >> So how do you balance that need for Kubernetes to be a common operating platform that people can build on with each vendor's desire to provide their own unique capabilities that they think that they do particularly well? That's why they charge the money that they do, because they think that theirs is the best storage ever. How do you balance that tension between the need for a standard platform and to make it interoperable, but still allowing the flexibility for people to have their own kind of innovation in there? >> So when we created the storage class, for instance, to be able to create a service level over storage, to be able to provide the provisioner that we're going to use, we made the specification of that section completely opaque. And what that allowed us to do is that when vendors wrote their provisioners and now their CSI drivers, allowed them to feed in different attributes of the storage that they want to leverage, that don't necessarily have to be in core Kubernetes. So it provided a huge amount of flexibility on that. The other side of that, though, is, the feeback we get from real users is "I need backup and recovery, and I need DR, and I need that across the platform." So I really think as we look to scale this out, we have to be looking at the commonalities between all storage and bringing those APIs into Kubernetes. >> One of the things I've really liked to see in this ecosystem over the last year or so, and really highlighted at this show, we're talking a lot more about workloads and applications and how those... What works today and where we're growing. Can you speak a little bit from your world as to where we are, what's working great, what customers are deploying, and a little bit, the road map of where we still need to go? >> Sure, I think workloads are key. I mean, I think that we have to focus on the actual end-to-end delivery of that, and so we have to figure out a way that we can make the data more agile, and create interfaces to really enable that, because it's very unlikely that an enterprise company is going to rely on one cloud or stay with one cloud, or want their data in one cloud. They're going to want to have the flexibility to leverage that. So as we enable those workloads, some are very complex. We started with, "Hey, I just want to containerize my application and get it running. Now I want to have some sort of state, which is persistent storage, and now I want to be able to scale that out across n number of clusters." That's where the workloads become really important. And long term, where we need policy to automate that. My pod goes down, I restart it, it needs to know that because of, maybe, the data that that workload's producing, it can only stay in this geographical region. >> Yeah, we talk about multicloud. You mentioned data protection, data protection is something I need to do across the board. Security is something I need to do across the board. My automation needs to take all that into account. How's Red Hat helping customers get their arms around that challenge? >> Yeah, so I think Red Hat really does take a holistic view in making sure that we provide a very consistent, secure platform. I think that's one of the things that you see when you come on to OpenShift, for instance, or OKR, that you're seeing security tightened a little bit more, to ensure that you're running in the best possible way that you can, to protect your data. And then, the use of Rook Ceph, for instance, Ceph provides that universal backplane, where if you're going to have encryption or anything like that, you know it's going to be the same across that. >> It sounds like there's an opportunity here for people new to Kubernetes who have been doing things in a previous way. There's a little bit of reticence from this community to understand enterprise, they're like, "Well, actually, you're kind of doing it wrong. It's slow and inflexible." There's actually a lot of lessons that we've learned in enterprise, particularly around these workloads. Having security, having backup in DR. In the keynote this morning, there was a lot of discussion about the security that either is in Kubernetes, and some parts it's kind of lacking. I think there's a lot that both of these communities can learn from each other, so I'm seeing a lot of moves of late to be a little bit more welcoming to some people who are coming to Kubernetes from other ecosystems. To be able to bring the ideas that they have that... We've already learned these lessons before, we can take some of that knowledge and bring it into Kubernetes to help us to do that better. Do you see Red Hat bringing a lot of that expereience in its work... Red Hat's been around for quite some time now, so you've done a lot of this already. Are you bringing all of that knowledge into Kubernetes and sharing it with the ecosystem? >> Absolutley, and just like Stu pointed out, I mean, OpenStack was a big part of our evolution, and security within RHEL, and I think we absolutely should take those lessons learned and look to how we do protect our customers' data, and make sure that the platform, Kubernetes itself and as we evolve OpenShift, can provide that, and ways that we can certify that. >> Erin, you're meeting with a lot of customers. You were talking about the Day Zero thing. What's top of mind for your customers? We talk about, that Kubernetes has crossed the chasm but to get the vast majority, there's still lots of work to do. We need to, as an industry, make things simpler. What's working well, and what are some of the challenges from the customers that you've talked to? >> So I think, if you walk in, across the hall, and you see how many vendors are there, it's trying to get a handle on what I should even be doing. And as the co-lead of the CNCF Storage SIG, I think that's one of the initiatives that we take very seriously. So in addition to a storage whitepaper, we've been working on use cases that define, when should I use a data store? When should I use object? Why would I want to use file? And then really taking these real-world examples, creating use cases and actual implementations so someone can, "Oh, that's similar to my workload." Here are some tools to accelerate understanding how to get that set up. And also creating those guard rails from an architectural standpoint. You don't want to go down this path, that's not right for your workload. So we're hoping to at least provide an education around containerized storage that'll help customers. >> Yeah, I'm just curious. I think back ten years ago, I was working for a large storage company. We were having some of these same conversations. So is it very different now in the containerized, multicloud world? Or are some of the basic decision tree discussions around block, file, and object and application the same as we might have been having a decade ago? >> I think we're starting to just touch on those, and I'm glad that you brought up object. That was one of the things I talked about in Barcelona, and we actually talked about at the face-to-face. To me, it's kind of the missing piece of storage today in Kubernetes, and I think we're finally starting to see that more customers are asking for that and realizing that's an important workload to be able to support at its core. So I think, yes, we're having the same conversations again, but certainly in a different context. >> Yeah, I mean, back in the day, it was, the future is object but we don't know how we'd get there. If you look behind the scenes in most public clouds, object's running a lot of what's there. All right, Erin, I want to give you the final word. KubeCon 2019, from that storage perspective. What should people watching take away? >> That we're only beginning with storage, yeah. We still have a lot of work to do, but I think it's a wonderful community and vibrant, and I think there'll be a lot of changes in the coming years. >> All right. Well, definitely a vibrant ecosystem. Erin, thank you so much for all the updates. We'll be back with more coverage here, for Justin Warren. I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. It's CubeCon cloud native con 2019. You're watching the cube. I'm streaming in my cohost for three days of live coverage is John Troyer and happened at welcome fresh off the keynote stage to my right is as hers as har who's the chief architect for telco at red hat and the man that was behind the scenes for a lot of it, hunting Garcia, telco solutions manager at red hat. A gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us and a very interesting keynote. So you know 5g uh, you know, my background's networking, we all watch it. Um, uh, let's say my telco provider already says that I have something related to five G on my phone that we grumble a little bit about, but we're not going to talk about that where we are going to talk about his keynote. Uh, we had a China mobile up on stage. Uh, maybe a, I love a little bit behind the scenes as you were saying. Uh, you know, the cloud native enabled not just uh, you know, the keynote and what it's living, but it gets a little bit of what >>well, sure. Um, look, when we took on this particular project to build a cloud native environment, uh, for five genes, we spent a lot of time planning and in fact this is a guy who actually did, you know, most of that work, um, to do a lot of planning in terms of picking different components and getting that together. Um, one of the things that cloud native environment allows us to do is bring things up quickly. The resilience part of it and the scale bar, right? Those are the two important components and attributes of cloud native. In fact, what happened last night was obviously one of the circuit breakers trapped and we actually lost power to that particular entire part that is onstage. I mean, nobody knows about this. I didn't talk about it as part of the keynote, but guess what? Through because it was cloud native because it was built in an automated fashion. People were able to work. Yes, they spent about three hours or so to actually get that back up. But we got it back up and running and we showed it live today. But what, I'm not trying to stress on how it failed a white fail. I'm trying to stress on how quickly things came back up and more important. The only cloud native way of doing things could have done that. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible. All right. >>as, as the man behind the scenes there. Uh, it's great when we have, you know, here's actually the largest telco provider in the world. Uh, you know, showing what it, it's happened. So the title Kubernetes everywhere that telco edge gets a little bit of a hind, the scenes as to kind of the, the, the mission of building the solution and how you got it, you know, your, your, your customers, your partners, uh, engaged and excited to participate in. >> This is what's that very thirsting enterprise through realize. Actually, we took four months around, uh, 15 partners. And, uh, I would say partners >>because in that case, I'm taking, uh, uh, bell Canada and China mobile is a partners. They are part of the project. They were giving us a requirement, helping us all the way to it and together other, uh, more, uh, commercial partners. And of course, uh, as whatsover Allianz, like the team in the and the open interface, Allianz is, we're working with us is, was about 8,200 people working behind the scenes to get this work, uh, to have a lab, uh, directly, completely set up with a full, uh, Fuji containerized MoMA and network in France, uh, have the same in Montreal. Fuji and fogey called directly Montiel as well, uh, in one of our partners, uh, Calum labs and then bringing here the fudgey pop, uh, and have everything connected to the public cloud. So we have everything in there. So all the technology, all the mobile technology was there. >>We have enterprise technology that we're using to connect all the, all the labs and the, and the pop here with the public cloud to. Uh, um, technology and we have of course deployed as, as a, as our, uh, was mentioning. We deployed Kubernete is on the public cloud and we have as well Kubernete is open, rehabbed, open stack, uh, sorry. They had OpenShift container platform running on the, on all the premise in the lab in France and Davi, Marcia and they pop here. Uh, as I say, it was kind of an interesting enterprise. We have some hiccups last night, but uh, we were able to put that out the world telco, >>very specialized, very high service level agreements. I always want by phone to work and so a little bit, uh, uses different terminology than the rest of it sometimes. Right. And MP and VNF and VCO. But so maybe let's real to tell people a little bit like what are we actually talking about here? I mean, people also may not be following edge and, and teleco and what's actually sitting in their home town or, or it used to be embedded chips and none, it was a like Linux, but we're actually talking about installing Kubernetes clusters in a lot of different, really interesting typologies. That's absolutely true actually with the way how, and described it as perfect in the sense that we actually had Kubernetes clusters sitting in a data center environment in France, in Montreal and a remote pop that's sitting here on stage. So it was not just independent clusters but also stretch clusters where we actually had some worker nodes here that will attach back to the Montreal cluster. >>So the flexibility that it gave us was just awesome. We can't achieve that. Uh, you know, in general. But you brought up an interesting topic around, uh, you know, Getty or, uh, or, or the Teleco's operating environment, which is different and cloud native principles has, are a little bit different where they weren't very high availability, they weren't very high reliability with good amount of redundancy. Well, cloud native and actually those attributes to you. But the operational model is very different. You have to almost use codas throwaway hardware as throwaway and do a horizontal scale model to be able to build that. Whereas in the older environment, hardware was a premium switches and routers with a premium and you couldn't have a failure. So you needed all of those, you know, compliance of high availability and upgradability and so on. Here I'm upgrading processes in Linux, I'm upgrading applications. I can go deploy anytime, tear them down. Anytime I'm monitoring the infrastructure, using metrics, using telemetry. That wasn't the case before. So a different operating environment, but it provides actually better residency models than what telcos are actually yesterday. Yeah. >>Um, it's a complicated ecosystem to put all these pieces together. Uh, it gives, gives a little insight as to, uh, you know, red hats, leadership and uh, the, the, the partners that help you put it in. >>I will let him answer that. >>Um, is another, our first rodeo. We have been working on the vitro central office project with the, with the leaner foundation, uh, networking and Hopi NFV community for three last years. Uh, let's say, and the interesting part of this one is that even though we typically get with working with what the technology that they are using now, uh, we decided it's time to go with the technologies that we'll be using from now on. Um, but of course, uh, there is a set of partners that we need. We need to build the infrastructure from scratch. So for example, we have a Lenovo that was bringing all the, all the servers, uh, for the, for the set up in, uh, and here in San Diego, which actually the San Diego pub was built originally in Raleigh, Illinois, facilities and cheap all over the country to here for the show. Uh, and uh, then we have the fabric part. >>So the networking part, that's his cologne. Uh, this was working and bringing us the software defined fabric, uh, to connect all the different future. And then, then we start building this over layers on top. So we have, they had OpenShift container platform for the to completely deploy over metal servers. And then we start adding all the rest of the components, like the four G core fundamental Tran, like dividing for GFG radio from Altron, uh, together with Intel come Scott. That's his building. He started building the mobile part of it in Montreal, a San Diego. And then we add on top of that. Then we start adding the IMS core in the public cloud and then we connect everything through the by tuning. >>So a couple of things that I'd like to highlight in terms of coordinating partners, getting to know when they're ready, figuring out an onboarding process that gives them a sandbox to play with their configurations first before you connect them back into the main environment. Partitioning that working simultaneously with Malden, we had a Slack board that was full of messages every day. We had a nonstop, you know, every morning we had a scam call, right then it's like a scrum meeting every morning, just a daily stand up from eight 30 to nine 30. And we continue that all over the day. >>So as her, one of the things I really like to China mobile, uh, when they talked about in the keynote, first of all they said, you know, the problem is, you know, 20 by 2026, you know, it's, it's rainbows and unicorns and you know, 5g, uh, you know, will help enable so much around the planet. Seriously. Um, but you know, today she, she talked about major challenge in the rollout and infrastructure and service and capability. So, you know, help us understand a little bit the hype from reality of where we are with five G what we could expect. >>Absolutely. We are going through the hype phase right now, right? We are absolutely all the operators want FFG service to be delivered for sure. The reason why they want it to be delivered as they don't want to be left behind. Now there are some operators when we in more opportunistic and looking at 5g as a way to insert themselves into different conversations, IOT conversation, um, smart city conversation, right? Um, edge compute conversation. So they're being very strategic about how the big, the set of technologies, how they go deploy in that particular infrastructure and strategically offer capabilities and build partnerships. Nobody's going to rip out their existing three G four G network and replace that with 5g by 2026. It's not gonna happen, but what will happen by 2026 is an incremental phase of services that will be continued to offer. As an example, I'll give you, um, cable providers are looking at 5g as a way to get into homes because they can deploy in millimeter wave band a radio closer to the house and get a very high speed multi-gigabit high speed connection into the home without having to worry about what's your copper look like? >>Do I have fiber to the home? Do I have fiber to the business and so on. And so. So that's actually an interesting, >>okay, so you're saying solving the last mile issue in a very targeted use. >>Absolutely. So that's one. The other area might be running a partnership with BMW Toyota in, you know, some of these car companies to provide telemetry back from cars into their own, you know, operating environment so that they know what's going on, what's being used, how is it being used, how can we, how can we do provide diagnosis before the car actually begins to fail? Uh, big, you know, private environments like oil and gas mining, they are going to deploy public safety and security where all of these, you know, policemen on and safety personnel are required to now use body cams. Now you have video feeds coming from hundreds of people. There are deployment and incidents. Now you can take that information you need high speed broadband, you need the ability to analyze data and do analytics and provide feedback immediately so that they can actually act. So do three, this specific targeted use case, even a country like India where they're talking about using 5g for very specific use cases, not replacing your phone calling. >>I love that point. And it kind of ties back into some of the other things you were saying about the a agility and the operational model. And I relate it back to it. You know, my, again, my perception of some telco maybe 20 years old and that they had a tendency to do very monolithic projects. And you know, when you're out, when you're rolling out a infrastructure across the country, there's a certain, uh, monolithic nature to it. But you're talking about rolling out one, rolling out individual projects rolling out. That's also the advice we give to it. Try it with one thing, you know, try open shift with that one application and then also though, but it takes uh, the upskilling and the cultural model. So true with your telco petitioners who are, we're on Slack, they're with you and I, you know, I don't, I don't know if there's any relation, any other kinds of things to pull out about the mirror of, of the it transformation with telco transformation and colon Turner. That's actually a good point that you bring up, >>right? Look, the costs of building, if I have infrastructure from ground up is extremely high. If they want to completely revamp that. You're talking about replacing every single radio, you're talking about adding capacity more adding, you know, backhaul capacity and so on. So that isn't going to happen overnight. It's going to happen. It may take even more 10 years. Right. I mean in the most interesting thing, that stat stack that I saw was even LTE is going to grow. LTE subscriber count is going to grow for the next two years before it flatmates. So we're not going to LTE four G that's been around for a decade almost. Right. And it's going to still grow for the next two years, then it's going to flatten and then you'll start to see more 5g subscribers. Now back to the point that you were bringing up in terms of operational model change and in terms of how things will be I D principles applying it principles to telco. >>Um, there are still some challenges that we need to solve in Coobernetti's environment in particular, uh, to address the teleco side of the house. And in fact through this particular proof of concept, that was one of the things we were really attempting to highlight and shine a light on. Um, but in terms of operational models, what use applicable and it will now be totally applicable on the telco network, the CIC pipeline. There's delivery of applications and software that testing and integration, the, you know, um, operational models. Absolutely. Those, in fact, I actually have a number of service providers and telcos that I talked to who are actually thinking about a common platform for it end telco network. And they are now saying, okay, red hat, can you help us in terms of designing this type of a system. So I think what could speak to you a little bit about, uh, in this context is how the same infrastructure can be used for any kind of application. So you want to talk about how the community's platform can be used to deploy CNS and then to deploy applications and how you've shown that. Yeah. Well this is what, >>what we have been doing, right. So we have, uh, the coordinators platform does, is actually deploy and the services we have, all these partners are bringing their Cloudnative uh, function, uh, applications on top of that, that what we are calling the CNF the quantities and network functions. And basically what we were doing as well during the whole process is that we have, those partners are still developing, still finishing the software. So we were building and deploying at the same time and testing on the same time. So during the last four months, and even I can tell you even just to deny >>even last night, so the full CACD pipeline that we deploy in ID side, here it is in operation on the network side. >>Well yeah. So, so I, I want to give you the final word cause you know, John was talking about it cycles, you know, if you think about enterprises, how long they used to take to deploy things, uh, and what cloud data is doing for them. Uh, it sounds like we're going through a similar trends. >>Absolutely big in a big way. Um, telcos are actually deploying a private cloud environment and they're also leveraging public cloud in mind. In fact, sometimes they using public cloud as sandbox for their development to be completed until they get deployed and private. Claremont, they still need the private time enrollment for their own purposes, like security, data sovereignty and uh, you know, their own operational needs. So, but they want to make it as transparent as possible. And in fact, that was one of the things we want to also attempted to show, which is a public cloud today, a private cloud and bare metal, a private cloud on OpenStack. And it was like, and you know, it came together, it worked, but it is real. That's more important. And, uh, for enterprise and for telcos to be literally going down the same path with respect to their applications, their services and their operational models. I think this is really a dream come true. >>Well, congratulations on the demo. Uh, but even more importantly, congratulations on the progress. Great to see, uh, you know, the global impact that's going to have in the telecommunications market. Definitely look forward to hearing more than. >>Thank you very much. Thank you. The opportunity to >>actually be here. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman back with lots more here from CubeCon Claude, date of con 2019 in San Diego, California. Thanks for watching the queue.

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE live coverage of Google Cloud Next '18 in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick. We're at day three of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Go to SiliconANGLE dot com on theCUBE dot net. Check out the on demand videos and the Cloud series special journalism report that we have out there, tons of articles, tons of coverage of Google Next with the news, analysis and opinion, of course, SiliconANGLE. Our next guest is Indranil Chakraborty, Project Manager for IoT Google Cloud. Certainly IoT part of the network part of the Cloud, one of the hottest areas in Cloud is IoT. We've been seeing that. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. IoT is certainly the intersection of a lot of things: Cloud, data center, A.I., soon to be, you know, cryptocurrency and blockchain coming down, not for you guys, but in general those are the big hottest areas. >> IOT is not like, you can't say it's an IoT category, so IoT has to kind of sit in the intersection of a lot of different markets that are kind of pure playing. >> So I first want you to explain to the folks out there watching, what is the Google IoT philosophy? What is the products trying to do? And what are guys announcing here? >> Absolutely. Thanks for having me here, it's really great to be here. And if you think about IoT, and if you think about what we have on Google Cloud, we already have a great set of service for data storage, processing, and machine intelligence. Right, so we have Cloud Machine Learning Engine, we have an on start ML. So most of those data processing and intelligence services are already there. What we announced last year was Cloud IoT Core, which is our fully-managed service for our customers and partners who easily and securely connect their IoT devices to Google Cloud, so they can start transmitting data and then ingest and store in the user downstream services for analysis and machine intelligence. >> I mean, IoT is a great use case of Cloud because one, Cloud shows that you can be incented to collect data. >> Right. >> Cuz now you have the lower cost storage, You've got machine learning, all these things are going on. It's great. >> Exactly. >> But Iot is now the Edge of the network. You've got sensors. You've got cars, like Teslas, people can relate to. So everything's coming online has, not just an IP connection, anything that's a sensor. The IoT's been just evolving. What is the Edge to you guys? What does that mean when I say IoT Edge? What is Google view of the Edge? >> Yeah absolutely, it's a great question. You know, we identified early on the emergent trend of moving compute and intelligence to the edge and close to the device itself. So this week, as you already know, we've announced two products for Edge. One is Cloud IoT Edge, which is a software stack which can run on your gateway device, cameras, or any connected device that has some compute capabilities, which extends that powerful AI and machine learning capabilities of Google Cloud to your Edge device. And we also announced Edge TPU, which is a Google designed high performing chip for to run machine learning inference on the Edge device itself. And so with the combination of Cloud IoT Edge as a software stack and with our Edge TPU, we think we have an integrated machine learning solution for on Google Cloud platform. >> How does that get rolled out? So the chip, I'm assuming, you're doing OEM or deals with manufacturers. Same with the software stack. Is the software stack portable? Explain how you roll those out. >> Yeah, you know we are big into working with our ecosystem and we really want to build a robust part of ecosystem. So we are working with semiconductor companies, such as NXP and Arm, who will build a system-on-module using our Google Edge TPU, which can then be used by gateway device makers. So we have partnership with Harting, Nokia, NEXCOM. We're going to take those SOM, add it to their gateway devices, so to take it to the market. We're also working with a lot of computing companies, such as ADLINK, Acton, and a couple of others, Olya. So they can build an analytic solution using our Cloud IoT Edge software and Edge TPU to combine with the rest of Cloud IoT platform. So we're pretty excited about the partners. >> But every coin has two sides, right? So the kind of knock on the Edge is, now you're attack surface on the security side is growing exponentially. So clearly, security is an important part of what you guys do. And now this is kind of a different challenge when you're now, your point to presence is not like our point to presence, but are going to expand exponentially to all these connected autonomous devices. >> Yep, that's a great point. And you know, we take security very seriously. In fact, last year when we announced Cloud IoT Core, we reject any connection that doesn't use TLS, number one, right? And number two, we individually authenticate each and every device using an asymmetry keypad. In addition to that, we've also announced partnership with Microchip. So Microchip has built this microcontroller crypto, which can have the private key inside the crypto, and we use JWT token that was signed by inside the chip itself. So your private key never leaves the chip at all. So that's one additional reinforcement for security. So we have end to end security. We make sure that the devices are connecting over TLS, but we also have hardware root of trust on the Edge device as well. >> The token model is interesting. Talk about blockchain because you know, David Floy on our analyst team, he and I are constantly riffing on that. IoT actually is interesting use case for blockchain and potentially token economics. How do you guys view that? I know that you just mentioned that this is kind of a thing there. Does it fit in your vision at all? What's your position on how that would work out? >> You know, we are closely looking at the blockchain technology. As of today, we don't have anything specific to announce in terms of a product perspective, but we do have, we do use JSON web token, which is standard on the web, use to sign those using our private keys. So that works beautifully, but we're closely monitoring and looking at it. We don't have anything to announce today. >> Not yet, but they're going to share that. Their research is working on it, interesting scenario. So in general, benefits to customers who're working with IoT, your team, cuz you have the core, you have the chip, you have the software stack. There's always an architectural discussion depending upon the environment. Do you move the compute to the data? Do you move the data to the Cloud? What's the role of data in all this cuz certainly you got the processing power. What's the architectural framework and benefits to the customers who are working with Google. >> Yeah, so let's make a specific example, LG CNS. They want to improve their productivity in the factory, and what they've done is they've built a machine learning model to detect defects on their assembly line using Cloud machine learning engine. And they've used this one engineer a couple of weeks and they would train the model on Cloud. Now with Cloud IoT Edge and the Edge TPU, they can run that train model locally on the camera itself, so they can do realtime defect analysis at a pretty fast moving assembly line. So that's the model which we are working on where you use Cloud for high compute for training, but you use the Edge TPU and the Cloud IoT Edge for local inference for real time detection as well. >> How do you guys look at the IoT market because depending on how you're looking at it, you can look at smart cities, you can look at self-driving cars? There's a huge aperture of different use cases. It could be humans with devices, also you guys have Android, so it's kind of a broad scope. You guys got to kind of have that core tech, which it sounds like you're putting in the center of all this. How do you guys look at that? How do you guys organize around that? I think Ann Green mentioned verticals, for instance, is there different verticals? I mean, how do you guys go at that mark with the product? >> IoT is a nation market. And what we offer as Google Cloud, is a horizontal platform, what we call it is Cloud IoT platform, which has got Cloud IoT core on the Cloud side, Cloud IoT Edge, the Edge TPU. And we really want to work with our partners our solution integrators and ISVs, to help build those vertical applications. And so we're working with partners on the healthcare side, manufacturing. We have Odin Technology as one of the partner to really build this vertical up. >> You guys are not going to be dogmatic, this is how our IoT sleeve. You're going to let a thousand flowers bloom kind of philosophy. Put it out there, connect, and let the innovation happen with the ecosystem. >> Yeah, we really believe in driving, moving the, having robust ecosystem. So we want to provide a horizontal platform, which really makes it easy for partners and customers to build vertical solutions. >> Another kind of unique IoT challenge, which you didn't have in the past, we've all seen great pictures of the inside of Google Data Centers. They're beautiful and tight and lots of pretty pictures, very different than out in a minefield or a lot of these challenging IT environments where power could be a challenge. The weather could be a challenge. Connectivity to the internet could be a challenge. Obviously, and then you need to power them. When you talk about how much store do you have locally, how much compute do you have locally. So as you look at that landscape, how has that shaped your guys' views? What are some of the unique challenges that you guys have faced? And how are you overcoming some of those? >> Yeah, that's a great question and this is one of the primary reasons why we announced Cloud IoT Edge, which is software stack, and Edge TPU. So that for use cases where you have limited connectivity, oil wells or farm field, windmills. Connectivity is limited, and you cannot rely on connectivity for reliable operations. But you can use Cloud IoT Edge with our partner device ecosystem to run some of the compute locally. You can store data locally. You can analyze locally, and then push some of the incremental data to the Cloud to further update your model in the Cloud. So that's how we were thinking about this. We have to have some compute locally for those reasons. >> Release the hard coupling, if you will. So it's really got to be a dynamic coupling based on the situation, based on the timing, maybe. >> Exactly. >> Schedule updates, and these type of things. So it's not just connected. >> Exactly. It doesn't need to be continuously connected, right? As long as there's enough connectivity to download some of the updated model, to download the latest firmware and the software. You can run local compute and local machine learning inference on the Edge itself. That's the model we're looking at. So you can train in Cloud, push down the updates to the Edge device, and you can run local compute and intelligence on the device itself. >> A lot of conscious we've been having lately has been about, how do you manage the Edge, has been an area of discussion. Why I want to have a multi-threaded computer, basically, on a device that could be attacked with malware, putting bounds around certain things. You need the IP there. You want to have as much compute, obviously, we'd agree. But there's going to be policies you're starting to think about. This is where I think it gets interesting when you look at what's going on at the abstractions up the stack that you guys are doing. How does that kind of thinking impact some rollouts of IoT because I'm looking to imagine that you won't have policies. Some might trickle data back. It might not be data intensive. Some might want more security. Containers, all this kind of tying in. Is that right? Am I getting that right? How do you see that happening? >> So when you think about Edge, there are different layers. There are different tiers. There are the gateway class devices, which has high compute, and all the way to sensors. Our focus really is on the Edge devices, which has some decent compute capabilities and you can scale up to high-end devices as well. And when you think about policies, on the Cloud side, we have IM policies, so you can define roles, and you can define policies, based on which you can decide which devices should get what software or which user should get access to particular data types as well. So we have the infrastructure already, and we're leveraging that for the IoT platform. >> Yeah, and automate a lot of those kind of activities as well. >> Exactly. >> Alright, so I got to ask you about the show. What's some of the cool things you're seeing, for the folks that couldn't make it that are watching this video live and on demand. What's happening here at Google? What's the phenomenon Google Cloud? What are some of the hot stories? What's the vibe? What are the cool things that you are seeing? >> Absolutely. So I'm biased, so I'm going to start with IoT. You know, we have an IoT showcase where we have a pedestal where we're showing the Edge TPU and the Edge TPU board as well. And there is a lot of work which is happening there. There's a maintenance team there as well, so I would highly encourage attendees to go check it out. >> What are people saying about that? The demos and the sessions, what are some of the feedback? Share some color commentary around reactions. >> Yeah, we've been getting a lot of positive reactions. In fact, we just had a couple of breakout sessions, and a lot of interest from partners across the board to engage with us. So we are pretty excited with our announcement on the Edge side. The whole orchestration of training model in the Cloud and then pushing it down and then sending updates, that's where it really makes it easy for a lot of the partners. So they're excited about it as well. >> They're going to make some good money with it too. You guys are making the mark, and not trying to go too far. Laying the foundational work, the horizontal scale. >> Yes, exactly. And we really focused, for the Edge TPU, we really focused on performance per dollar and performance per watt. And so that has been what we are striving to really have high performance for lower cost. So that's what we're targeting. And a couple of other things, the whole server-less capabilities, and the fact that Cloud functions have become GA, is pretty exciting. And Cloud IoT Core is also a fully managed server-less architecture in a machine. The AI and auto ML which we announced with NLP and text and speech is pretty exciting as well. And that works very well with some of our IoT use cases as well. So I think those are a couple of announcements, which I'm pretty excited about. >> Yeah, I think the automation theme too, really resonated well on all that. Cuz what comes out of that is, humans still got to be more proficient in doing the new stuff, but also they got to run this. And you've got developers enough to build apps that drives value, so you got the value development with the applications, and then also the operational side, which is, I don't want to say becoming generic, but it's not specialized as used to be. Network operator, this guys does this, this gal does that. I mean, it used to be very stove piped. Now it's much more of a how do you run the environment? >> Exactly, and to your point, even on the IoT space, it's also very relevant. I mean there are a lot of overlaps between what used to be just devops and OTE and IT. There are a lot of overlaps there. And so we're looking at it closely as well to make sure that we can really simplify the overall requirement and the tooling which is needed for building an IoT solution. >> For the people that are not following Google as closely as say we are, for instance, they're not inside the ropes, inside the baseball, if you will, in the industry. See Google Cloud, they know Google as Gmail, search, et cetera. They look a couple years ago, Google Cloud had app engine, the OG of Google Cloud, as it's called. What would you say to the folks now that are watching? What's different about Google Cloud now, and what should they know about Google Cloud that they may not know about. What would you say to that person? >> Absolutely, and the first thing is we are very serious about enterprise. You can see here the number of attendees who have come here and how we have multiple buildings where we organized the conference. We're very serious over enterprise. Second, back in the days, two years back, we were really focused on building products, which works for specific use cases. We didn't think about end to end solution, but now the focus has changed. And we're really thinking about, we always had the technology with packaging the products, and now we're thinking about providing end to end solutions, the framework where for a business user, enterprise user, they can just take the solution, and they know it will work. Alright, so there's been a lot of focus on that. And our key differentiator is about machine intelligence and AI, right? That's where Google thrives. We've been spending a lot of time on it, and now we're focused on democratizing AI. Not just on the Cloud, but also on the Edge with the announcement of HTPU. >> And I really think you guys have done a good job with the mindset of making it consumable. In an end to end framework with the option. We've got Kubernetes, and Container's been around for a while, but it's working with multiple environments. I think that is a real mindset shift. >> Exactly. >> So congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Absolutely, was great having you guys. >> Google IoT, just plug into the Google Cloud. It'll suck all your data in. Give you some compute at the Edge. Open it up to partners, really focusing on the ecosystem and enabling new types of functionality. It's theCUBE, bringing you the data here on day three at Google Cloud Next '18. We'll be right back with more coverage. Stay with us after this short break. (modern music)